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Okay, that's cool and a little crazy. 2014-09-30T00:04:42Z buzzy joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:05:30Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T00:07:32Z drewc has never liked once-only, or with-gensyms or equivalent ... because (let ((name (gensym))) ...) makes more sense IMO 2014-09-30T00:10:53Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T00:11:21Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-30T00:14:00Z tadni: Reinventing Unix tech in Lisp, seems so odd to me. The fact that Scsh is a thing (though rarely, rarerly used) I guess is better than a regular shell just in insert lisp-lang here... but still. 2014-09-30T00:14:52Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:17:21Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:17:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T00:21:32Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T00:26:38Z jasom: tadni: I'm writing a posix shell in lisp for pedagogic purposes; also vacietis couldn't use an existing libc, since the sizeof all primitives is 1 2014-09-30T00:26:47Z blakbunnie27 quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-09-30T00:28:23Z marcot_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-09-30T00:28:25Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:30:04Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T00:31:15Z tadni: jasom: Yeah, I guess it's a decent learning tool. 2014-09-30T00:34:19Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:36:53Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T00:37:17Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:37:27Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:43:20Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-09-30T00:44:05Z karupa is now known as karupane 2014-09-30T00:44:07Z karupane is now known as karupa 2014-09-30T00:45:42Z phao joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:47:51Z try-catch-throw joined #lisp 2014-09-30T00:50:45Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:00:52Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:03:32Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2014-09-30T01:05:36Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:08:29Z boogie quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-09-30T01:08:33Z rvchangue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T01:12:22Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:14:39Z bcoburn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T01:15:29Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:15:37Z ben__ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:16:11Z MutSbeta quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-30T01:17:00Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:17:45Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-09-30T01:17:57Z dfox quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T01:23:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:27:53Z cmack` joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:29:30Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T01:30:21Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:36:18Z ben__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-30T01:36:20Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2014-09-30T01:39:52Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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We'll see what happens when I get to CATCH/THROW, BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, and TAGBODY/GO. 2014-09-30T03:49:34Z beach: I think I can implement them all using the CATCH/THROW of the host Common Lisp system. 2014-09-30T03:51:11Z jusss is now known as nyfair- 2014-09-30T03:51:58Z jain3 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T03:52:25Z phao quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-30T03:54:13Z jain3: hey what are some must have libraries I should quickload. Sort of new to lisp. thanks 2014-09-30T03:55:26Z beach: jain3: I don't think there is such a list. It depends on the applications you write. 2014-09-30T03:56:53Z beach: jain3: If you write web applications, you need Hunchentoot. For regular expression matching, you need cl-ppcre, etc. 2014-09-30T03:58:42Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-09-30T03:59:15Z rtra quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-09-30T04:00:38Z jain3: ah I get it now. is there at least a long list or website that I can read in order to know what I'll need. 2014-09-30T04:01:04Z White_Flame: jain3: alexandria is a common simple utility library 2014-09-30T04:01:11Z beach: jain3: Maybe on CLiki. 2014-09-30T04:01:35Z beach: jain3: The best thing is to ask here. That way you will be told whether the library is any good or if there are better ones. 2014-09-30T04:01:55Z pillton: jain3: (ql:system-list) lists everything. 2014-09-30T04:02:54Z pillton: jain3: ql:system-apropos can be used to search too. 2014-09-30T04:02:56Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2014-09-30T04:03:22Z jain3: is optima or lisp-interface-library any good 2014-09-30T04:03:36Z Bike: optima's cool. 2014-09-30T04:05:45Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:06:11Z jain3: cool. between GSLL and Maxima which is better for mathematics they are both on the recommendation list on Cliki 2014-09-30T04:06:23Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:06:38Z Bike: GSL is numeric, maxima is symbolic, practically not related 2014-09-30T04:06:41Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-30T04:06:41Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-30T04:08:57Z jain3: Im learning AI. is there any particular libraries I could load? 2014-09-30T04:09:40Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:09:40Z nyfair- quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:10:10Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:10:12Z beach: jain3: That's a very broad category of programs. I don't think you will find anything general. 2014-09-30T04:11:39Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:11:47Z jain3: im looking to start in symantics 2014-09-30T04:12:19Z beach: "symantics"? 2014-09-30T04:13:50Z ahungry: Hmm, anyone know in cl-who how to use an empty attribute when operating under html5 mode? 2014-09-30T04:14:09Z jain3: giving words meaning or finding patterns in sentences to assign them some value 2014-09-30T04:14:30Z beach: "semantics"! 2014-09-30T04:14:36Z ahungry: The new microcode things in HTML5 for search engines require an empty attribute, but html5 mode in cl-who refuses to allow them (only allowed in sgml mode, which breaks the html5 prologue) 2014-09-30T04:14:52Z jain3: oh I misspelled sorry 2014-09-30T04:15:03Z beach: jain3: So you want to do natural language processing? 2014-09-30T04:15:35Z beach: jain3: There is also denotational semantics, etc. 2014-09-30T04:16:09Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:17:48Z jain3: yes it seems easiest to start 2014-09-30T04:18:12Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:19:20Z beach: jain3: http://www.cliki.net/natural%20language%20processing 2014-09-30T04:19:36Z beach: jain3: This is not my domain, so I can't give you advice about those libraries. 2014-09-30T04:20:13Z jain3: whats your domain 2014-09-30T04:20:17Z jain3: ? 2014-09-30T04:21:22Z beach: jain3: Compiler construction, analysis and synthesis of sound, operating systems, algorithms and data structures. 2014-09-30T04:22:23Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:22:28Z jain3: cool 2014-09-30T04:23:09Z beach: jain3: I think you will find that relatively few people use Common Lisp for AI. Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language that happens to be more powerful than most of the other ones, so people use if for just about anything. 2014-09-30T04:24:22Z K1rk_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:27:56Z drmeister_: Hey beach - how is it going? 2014-09-30T04:28:26Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:28:43Z beach: drmeiste_: Hello! Fine thanks. To test the AST generation, I decided I need an AST interpreter. It will take a few days more to do that, but then the testing will be more complete. 2014-09-30T04:28:53Z beach: er, drmeister_. 2014-09-30T04:29:30Z beach: drmeister_: What's the story of the multiple nicks? It screws up completion. 2014-09-30T04:29:37Z drmeister_: Great, so this interpreter will walk the AST and evaluate the program it represents? 2014-09-30T04:29:44Z beach: Yes. 2014-09-30T04:30:02Z beach: Could be used as an interpreter as well, but right now it is not designed for that. 2014-09-30T04:30:11Z beach: I mean a "production interpreter". 2014-09-30T04:30:23Z drmeister_: Yeah, I've got to fix that. I keep an IRC log open at work and on my laptop on the #clasp chat room to answer questions. 2014-09-30T04:30:27Z beach: I represent the static runtime environment as a list of hash tables. 2014-09-30T04:30:30Z Bike: drmeister_: hey, is there an irc or something for mps? 2014-09-30T04:30:33Z jain3: beach: oh! the books I read mention Lisp as a good language as an AI starting point but I can see that it has a wide range of applications 2014-09-30T04:30:45Z beach: jain3: What book? 2014-09-30T04:30:50Z drmeister_: Bike: For clasp - it's called #clasp 2014-09-30T04:30:55Z drmeister_: On freenode. 2014-09-30T04:31:14Z Bike: well, is there one for the memory pool system, do you know? 2014-09-30T04:31:30Z drmeister_: Sure, #memorypoolsystem also on freenode 2014-09-30T04:31:43Z Bike: thanks 2014-09-30T04:32:02Z drmeister_: It's mostly bots - with the occasional human. 2014-09-30T04:32:17Z Bike: i figured 2014-09-30T04:32:25Z Bike: though i saw a bit of interest in mps on twitter, thanks to clasp 2014-09-30T04:32:36Z jain3: beach: on lisp by paul graham and an MIT algoritm book 2014-09-30T04:32:56Z drmeister_: That would be good. I'd like them to keep supporting it. 2014-09-30T04:33:18Z beach: jain3: Got it. 2014-09-30T04:33:41Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:33:43Z beach: jain3: Of course Lisp is good for AI. It immediately follows from the fact that it is good for almost everything. 2014-09-30T04:33:44Z drmeister_: There's no open-source, compacting garbage collector in existence. 2014-09-30T04:34:35Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-09-30T04:35:06Z jain3: I was hoping to get good at it enough to contribute or at least understand Qlisp 2014-09-30T04:35:20Z drmeister_: What's a "production interpreter" do? 2014-09-30T04:35:20Z Bike: i got my toy lisp implementation running, so i'm looking forward to destroying my RAM with mps 2014-09-30T04:35:48Z drmeister_: Bike: It's amazing how much memory you churn though when lisp runs. Megabytes per second. 2014-09-30T04:36:05Z Bike: yeah, right now i have an allocator that just calls malloc and never frees, sooooo 2014-09-30T04:36:10Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:36:38Z beach: jain3: This channel is about Common Lisp. I have not seen any work on Qlisp or using Qlisp, at least not discussed here. 2014-09-30T04:36:39Z drmeister_: At least mine does, until Cleaver can help me get most of it put on the stack. 2014-09-30T04:36:58Z jain3: KK 2014-09-30T04:37:14Z drmeister_: Bike: what's it written in? 2014-09-30T04:37:23Z Bike: C. though it should have been rust. 2014-09-30T04:37:36Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T04:37:37Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:37:43Z jain3: thanks for help going to see what I can do 2014-09-30T04:37:53Z jain3 left #lisp 2014-09-30T04:37:53Z beach: jain3: Good luck! 2014-09-30T04:38:34Z drmeister_: MPS is great, but has lots of details to implement - I'll be happy to provide any help I can. 2014-09-30T04:38:57Z drmeister_: If you want, you could use Clasp to build most of the MPS interface for you. 2014-09-30T04:39:57Z drmeister_: Or you could incorporate the Boehm GC in about an hour. 2014-09-30T04:41:17Z Bike: that might be a good idea, actually. 2014-09-30T04:42:13Z Bike: mps just seems so neat though, i can't resist. 2014-09-30T04:42:41Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T04:42:52Z drmeister_: Yeah, Boehm was my "training wheels" garbage collector. It helped identify all of the mistakes I was making re: garbage collection. Everything I learned from Boehm I was able to apply to MPS. 2014-09-30T04:43:03Z Bike: cool. 2014-09-30T04:44:02Z drmeister_: Don't get sucked in by MPS's neatness! Don't spend a year getting it running with your code! I am lost but you can still save yourself! Run away and live your life! 2014-09-30T04:44:28Z Bike: you spent like two years writing a compiler so you could do chemistry, are you sure i should take your advice :p 2014-09-30T04:46:56Z drmeister_: Absolutely you should take my advice :-) Meh - or don't. I regret nothing now that Clasp is out. 2014-09-30T04:47:02Z drmeister_: I do what I say I'm going to do. 2014-09-30T04:47:25Z drmeister_: I say I'm going to create nanobots that will save human kind. 2014-09-30T04:47:32Z Bike: well, good to be positive. 2014-09-30T04:47:48Z White_Flame welcomes our grey goo overlords 2014-09-30T04:49:59Z drmeister_: Drexler deserves a paddlin' for that one. 2014-09-30T04:50:07Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-30T04:50:18Z drmeister_: Alright, goodnight all. 2014-09-30T04:51:25Z mcc joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:51:41Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:51:41Z drmeister_: And I love Drexler and a lot of his ideas - but "gray goo" - that's a paddlin'. 2014-09-30T04:55:34Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-30T04:59:05Z dfox joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:00:19Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:01:17Z c107 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T05:04:45Z madrik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T05:06:26Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:06:41Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:09:47Z try-catch-throw quit (Quit: try-catch-throw) 2014-09-30T05:10:21Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:10:53Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T05:13:22Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T05:13:23Z posterdati300 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T05:14:07Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:15:40Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T05:17:28Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:25:40Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-09-30T05:27:50Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:29:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:30:18Z beach: So Cocoa is some Mac stuff, right? Is it still used? I need to know how much energy I should spend to keep the Cocoa backend for McCLIM working. 2014-09-30T05:30:25Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:31:35Z tadni: beach: Unless the changed over the past 2 years... yeah, Cocoa is pretty big. 2014-09-30T05:31:48Z beach: I see. :( 2014-09-30T05:31:55Z tadni: beach: Give me a sec. 2014-09-30T05:32:30Z beach: tadni: Don't worry too much about it. I'll check with moore33. He knows both McCLIM and Cocoa. 2014-09-30T05:32:31Z tadni: Yeah, looks pretty important to MacOSX. 2014-09-30T05:32:37Z beach: OK. 2014-09-30T05:32:40Z beach: Thanks. 2014-09-30T05:32:50Z tadni: "The Cocoa and Cocoa Touch frameworks that power OS X and iOS are tightly integrated into the Xcode development experience." 2014-09-30T05:33:18Z beach: OK, I think I get the picture. Good I didn't decide to ditch the backend then. 2014-09-30T05:33:40Z tadni: beach: Oh and you son-of-a, I just got "second-climacs" as a joke today. 2014-09-30T05:33:47Z tadni: :^) 2014-09-30T05:33:50Z beach: :) 2014-09-30T05:34:18Z tadni: Since you showed me, I was like ... what an odd freaking naming scheme. 2014-09-30T05:34:30Z beach: tadni: When I named it "Climacs" I got protests form all over the world. Apparently in Russian it means "menopause". In English it means something different of course. 2014-09-30T05:34:41Z tadni: X^D 2014-09-30T05:35:03Z tadni: I'd love to use the "menopause" text editor. 2014-09-30T05:35:14Z beach: tadni: And if course, it has to do with "CLIM", the Common Lisp Interface Manager. 2014-09-30T05:35:24Z tadni: beach: Yeah. 2014-09-30T05:36:14Z tadni is still torn between Guile and CL... GNU Distro is the only thing having me lean towards Scheme right now. 2014-09-30T05:36:18Z beach: As it turns out, people quickly get used to strange names. I mean, take "Chaosnet". 2014-09-30T05:36:46Z tadni: beach: I mean, Stumpwm and Emacs are very odd names for programs, really. 2014-09-30T05:36:55Z beach: Indeed. 2014-09-30T05:37:16Z beach: Emacs is supposedly "Editing Macros". 2014-09-30T05:37:41Z tadni needs to just shut up and write elisp until he's comfy then decide from there; the obvious choice being CL though. 2014-09-30T05:37:52Z beach: Because it was originally implemented as macros for TECO. 2014-09-30T05:38:44Z beach: Sorry, "EdiTOR Macros" according to Wikipedia. 2014-09-30T05:39:34Z beach: Another strange name: GIMP 2014-09-30T05:40:10Z tadni: beach: I still think they'd be much better if they drop that GNU and just call it GNU Imp. 2014-09-30T05:40:27Z tadni: beach: It seems many Free Software projects are bad at marketing themselves though. 2014-09-30T05:41:14Z beach: Maybe so, yes. 2014-09-30T05:41:31Z tadni: beach: I guess one you can more-so sympathize with is "guix" (pronounced as you would in french) ... well none of the official means of mentioning it, stated this, so no native english speaker got it. 2014-09-30T05:41:42Z tadni: I though it was guh-wix. 2014-09-30T05:41:57Z eee-blt_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T05:41:58Z tadni: That's the Scheme based pacakge manager. 2014-09-30T05:42:07Z tadni: For the GNU Distro* 2014-09-30T05:43:14Z beach: OK, so more about McCLIM backends. What is "Graphic Forms"? 2014-09-30T05:43:23Z beach: ... and, is it still used? 2014-09-30T05:43:31Z tadni wonders if there's ever been a videoplayer written in Clim before. 2014-09-30T05:44:42Z beach: tadni: Such a thing would be mostly a way of organizing videos, no? Plus the decoder of course. 2014-09-30T05:45:21Z beach Googles for "Graphic Forms". 2014-09-30T05:45:35Z tadni: beach: Well, I'd imagine you'd lust use a clim based file-manager and launches a program that plays it. 2014-09-30T05:45:50Z beach: Yeah, probably. 2014-09-30T05:45:52Z tadni: beach: I tried looking and can't find anything in this paper about. 2014-09-30T05:47:11Z beach: Found it. 2014-09-30T05:47:20Z beach: http://common-lisp.net/project/graphic-forms/faq.html 2014-09-30T05:47:55Z eee-blt joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:48:21Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:48:46Z tadni: Weird, the implementation is Windows only? 2014-09-30T05:48:56Z uber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T05:49:04Z knosys joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:49:07Z knosys: Hello 2014-09-30T05:49:13Z beach: Hello knosys. 2014-09-30T05:49:23Z knosys: is this programming channel? 2014-09-30T05:49:26Z beach: tadni: Yeah, I kind of knew that somehow. 2014-09-30T05:49:34Z beach: knosys: Yes, it is about the Common Lisp language. 2014-09-30T05:49:37Z tadni: knosys: For CL, yes. 2014-09-30T05:49:39Z knosys: Ah nice 2014-09-30T05:49:47Z knosys: What means the topic? lol 2014-09-30T05:50:11Z beach: minion: Please tell knosys about cl-features. 2014-09-30T05:50:12Z minion: knosys: please look at cl-features: Features of Common Lisp. It is not one single feature that makes Common Lisp so great, but a combination of many of them. See: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 2014-09-30T05:50:12Z knosys: aaahh, sorry, its a list of nicknames 2014-09-30T05:50:17Z knosys: im not used to this irc client 2014-09-30T05:50:50Z tadni: Oh, that's a fun bot name. 2014-09-30T05:51:07Z tadni still is working on his lobot(omy). 2014-09-30T05:51:08Z knosys: wichone? 2014-09-30T05:51:16Z beach: minion: Are you a bot? 2014-09-30T05:51:17Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 2014-09-30T05:51:31Z knosys: hahah 2014-09-30T05:51:35Z tadni: minion: source 2014-09-30T05:51:35Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``source''. 2014-09-30T05:51:38Z tadni: Aw. 2014-09-30T05:52:42Z eee-blt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T05:53:06Z xishvai joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:53:14Z eee-blt joined #lisp 2014-09-30T05:53:46Z tadni: Well, I found Cl-irc; which it seems cliki-bot is based off of. 2014-09-30T05:53:54Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T05:53:55Z tadni: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/ 2014-09-30T05:54:07Z tadni: That's tremendously simple. 2014-09-30T05:55:16Z beach: OK, it seems safe to not spend too much time keeping the Graphic Forms backend running. Almost nobody uses Windows anymore anyway, and certainly nobody uses McCLIM on Windows. 2014-09-30T05:55:42Z buzzy is now known as buzzykins 2014-09-30T05:56:56Z beach needs to ask moore33 about the "OpenGL" McCLIM backend. 2014-09-30T05:56:57Z knosys: I wanted to ask here, if you guys dont mind: I was talking to a mysterious buddy on a mud game (text-based). He told me he was a programmer and he was playing that mud with his own client. Well its just a telnet... but anyway. We talked about programming and he recommend me about lisps, about clojure and states "Stop losing your time with php, c, or any of those and learn lisps, you will thank me" 2014-09-30T05:57:24Z beach: Your buddy is right. 2014-09-30T05:57:30Z knosys: so thats how i know about lisps, and im here to ask you, if you dont mind: Why would you recommend this language family over another one? 2014-09-30T05:57:53Z buzzykins left #lisp 2014-09-30T05:57:57Z beach: knosys: minion just showed you a URL to the features of Common Lisp. 2014-09-30T05:59:22Z knosys: Well.. then im glad to finally know about this, didnt know anything about this programming patterns 2014-09-30T05:59:40Z mcc: knosys: the reason i like lisp-like languages is they make it very easy to make my own abstractions. with php or c the language gives me a set of hardcoded primitives and i'm stuck with those, i can never do anything more creative or flexible. languages with lispy approaches let me mold the language to fit what i'm doing. 2014-09-30T05:59:44Z knosys: ill start with a hello world :D 2014-09-30T06:00:16Z beach: knosys: A "hello world" program in Common Lisp will look like this: "hello world". 2014-09-30T06:00:22Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:00:28Z PuercoPop: Oi, I'm failing to understand why the query macro is not working even if macroexpand-1 shows it expands to code that when typed manually works. I guess I could just use a function and quote the 'query spec'. http://paste.lisp.org/+330Z 2014-09-30T06:00:34Z mcc: knosys: of course, and i am not a channel regular so maybe i'm about to violate consensus ^_^, there are languages outside the lisp family that i see many of the lisp advantages in, for example Lua is a language with higher-order functinos and good list processing. 2014-09-30T06:00:40Z White_Flame: 1) It's always good to learn new languages. 2) It's really difficult to appreciate the value of fundamentally different language features until you've actually become familiar with them. 2014-09-30T06:00:43Z knosys: yeah because PHP language is a bunch of premade functions... you must find them to do what you want... if there is such :P 2014-09-30T06:01:04Z White_Flame: therefore, learn Lisp :) 2014-09-30T06:01:04Z mcc: knosys: however i think learning LISP is an important thing that will teach you important ideas you can use in a lot of other languages (INCLUDING c++!) and maybe you will find you don't need those other languages, LISP is all you need. 2014-09-30T06:01:20Z knosys: Thanks all guys. 2014-09-30T06:01:26Z beach: mcc: We haven't written it "LISP" for the past few decades. 2014-09-30T06:01:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:01:30Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-09-30T06:01:30Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:01:49Z mcc is a relic of the nineties 2014-09-30T06:01:57Z knosys: is this new? 2014-09-30T06:02:11Z knosys: Lisp methods? 2014-09-30T06:02:11Z beach: mcc: I think it was written "Lisp" even before that. 2014-09-30T06:02:27Z beach: knosys: ? 2014-09-30T06:02:32Z mcc: yeah well the nineties were just the sixties... uh... upside down 2014-09-30T06:02:50Z White_Flame: you mean the 06's? 7th century? 2014-09-30T06:02:56Z knosys: 90's? 2014-09-30T06:03:12Z beach: knosys: Common Lisp has the most sophisticated object-oriented programming system around, in case you mean "methods" as in object-oriented programming. 2014-09-30T06:03:16Z huza joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:03:35Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:03:41Z knosys: like ever? 2014-09-30T06:03:57Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T06:04:00Z knosys: sorry im just wandering why the hell is the first time i hear about this in 2014 2014-09-30T06:04:25Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:04:35Z beach: knosys: It happens to a lot of people. There is a lot of mental investment in lesser languages, so people are unwilling to let go of those. 2014-09-30T06:04:41Z uber joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:05:19Z mcc: knosys: Lisp is very very old. It literally dates to 1958. Interest in it waxes and wanes over the years. 2014-09-30T06:05:31Z knosys: waaa 2014-09-30T06:05:40Z knosys: nice 2014-09-30T06:05:52Z beach: mcc: LISP is old. Lisp, not so much. The standard is from 1994. 2014-09-30T06:06:43Z nydel quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-09-30T06:07:23Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:07:23Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:08:03Z mcc: beach: You're making a big deal about this given we're technically discussing a case-insensitive language! 2014-09-30T06:08:07Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:08:29Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-09-30T06:08:58Z beach: mcc: Wrong again. Common Lisp is case sensitive. It's just that the default readtable turns symbol into upper case. 2014-09-30T06:08:59Z White_Flame: mcc: Since there are a lot of very outdated & incorrect assumptions about Lisp floating around, correcting old usages is a common point among Lispers 2014-09-30T06:09:28Z tadni: I actually like the ALLCAPS technical names. 2014-09-30T06:09:39Z beach: clhs readtable-case 2014-09-30T06:09:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 2014-09-30T06:09:41Z mcc: okay 2014-09-30T06:09:52Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-30T06:09:55Z beach: mcc: That URL from specbot is for you. 2014-09-30T06:10:24Z tadni: Why are there non-free lisps out there? 2014-09-30T06:10:36Z tadni: I wouldn't even think there'd be a market. 2014-09-30T06:10:43Z beach: tadni: Yes, LispWorks, Allegreo. 2014-09-30T06:10:45Z beach: Allegro 2014-09-30T06:11:00Z beach: tadni: And a few more. 2014-09-30T06:11:07Z tadni: beach: Yeah, I know there is a market -- I just don't get how there is. 2014-09-30T06:11:49Z tadni: What do they offer, that other implemntations do not? 2014-09-30T06:12:02Z beach: tadni: Support. 2014-09-30T06:12:08Z tadni: I mean it's highly standardized, it's not like Scheme, where there are major differences. 2014-09-30T06:12:16Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T06:12:17Z beach: tadni: And LispWorks (I am told) has an excellent GUI system. 2014-09-30T06:12:21Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:12:32Z tadni: beach: Even them, you couldn't label yourself as a consultation firm and just support SBCL? 2014-09-30T06:12:57Z mcc: beach: Is there a general place I should look if I'm curious about the different methods for customizing the reader? When I search google for "reader macros" i mostly find people discussing the concept of reader macros. 2014-09-30T06:13:00Z beach: tadni: Sure. 2014-09-30T06:13:38Z beach: clhs 2 2014-09-30T06:13:38Z specbot: Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm 2014-09-30T06:13:42Z tadni is probably just biased, with his strong foss leanings. :^P 2014-09-30T06:14:29Z mcc: Thanks. 2014-09-30T06:14:32Z White_Flame: Most of the commercial CL vendors have a long history with entrenched customers 2014-09-30T06:14:45Z beach: tadni: It has been tried. Ask nikodemus about it. 2014-09-30T06:15:05Z Bike: mcc: you might also want to look at a good example... cl-interpol off the top of my head 2014-09-30T06:15:17Z schaueho joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:15:32Z Neptu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T06:15:36Z tadni: beach: I mean, like I said -- I'm just shocked such a market exists and makes any money. 2014-09-30T06:15:46Z schaueho quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T06:15:52Z beach: tadni: What White_Flame said. 2014-09-30T06:15:57Z knosys: guys what language Lisp based do you recommend for starting out? 2014-09-30T06:16:09Z Bike: this is a common lisp channel, so, that one 2014-09-30T06:16:11Z beach: knosys: This channel is about Common Lisp. 2014-09-30T06:16:12Z tadni: beach: Ah, messed that. 2014-09-30T06:16:39Z tadni is learning Elisp ... but yeah, knosys you're asking in biased waters. 2014-09-30T06:16:43Z knosys: beach: do you recommend me that one? 2014-09-30T06:17:05Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T06:17:08Z beach: knosys: "biased" means that you won't get an objective answer here. Yes, of course I recommend Common Lisp. 2014-09-30T06:17:19Z knosys: =D 2014-09-30T06:17:19Z tadni: Are there any entry level Compsci books in CL, that's not land of Lisp? 2014-09-30T06:17:30Z tadni: Land of Lisp* 2014-09-30T06:17:37Z Grue`: if you learn CL, all other lisps will be a piece of cake! 2014-09-30T06:17:38Z tadni: I haven't found any. 2014-09-30T06:17:49Z Bike: "compsci" meaning what, about computer science generally? 2014-09-30T06:17:52Z Neptu joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:18:07Z simulacrum joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:18:11Z tadni: Bike: As like, what you'd expect into a Compsci 101 course as a freshmen in uni. 2014-09-30T06:18:34Z Bike: mm... I think someone translated SICP to CL. 2014-09-30T06:18:41Z White_Flame: Land of Lisp isn't really an entry level CompSci book. It's an entry level programming book. 2014-09-30T06:19:05Z White_Flame is a stickler about what "computer science" is [supposed to] mean 2014-09-30T06:19:05Z tadni: White_Flame: Well, at that level? Isn't that aprox the same? 2014-09-30T06:19:09Z Bike: but i mean, my usual compsci books are stuff like TAOCP and TAPL that aren't in any language exactly 2014-09-30T06:19:29Z Bike: unless you're like, really into MMIX. 2014-09-30T06:19:34Z White_Flame: ...[is supposed to mean|means] etc 2014-09-30T06:19:58Z tadni: Bike: I know some of those words... 2014-09-30T06:20:01Z Bike: if a 101 class is focusing exclusively on some language's operation it's not a very good one. 2014-09-30T06:20:15Z mcc: ...are there people who are really into MMIX 2014-09-30T06:20:24Z Bike: I fear them. 2014-09-30T06:20:25Z mcc: I mean I know there's ONE person who's really into MMIX 2014-09-30T06:20:58Z tadni: Bike: My State's best Uni, basically teaches C++ for the first semester and how to program with it in the next. 2014-09-30T06:21:19Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T06:21:20Z Bike: I mean, it's usual to use one particular language, but the language isn't the focus of the class. 2014-09-30T06:21:35Z McMAGIC--Copy joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:21:50Z Bike: My introductory class had exercises like "program a pseudorobot to complete this maze", so you learned subroutines and whatnot 2014-09-30T06:22:00Z Bike: it happened to be in python but it's not like we learned about iterators 2014-09-30T06:24:53Z mcc: My university's 101 class basically just taught Java, assuming you already knew how to program in the general sense from your own independent study. It was terrible. It flunked basically everyone who hadn't been a CS AP course, and this was by design, since its function was to transfer people out of the overloaded CS program into "Technology" 2014-09-30T06:25:22Z Bike: right, the other aspect to your question, tadni, is that CS education is often not great :p 2014-09-30T06:25:39Z mcc: it is true 2014-09-30T06:25:46Z tadni is soooo worried he didn't try hard enough in Community College and won't make it into his ideal transfer school. He only has ~3.20 GPA right now. 2014-09-30T06:26:08Z mcc: good luck 2014-09-30T06:27:18Z tadni: I have this class and one more thereafter, can't imagine it would raise much if I got As in both. :^/ 2014-09-30T06:27:27Z tadni: mcc: Thank you. 2014-09-30T06:30:22Z freaksken joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:31:05Z tadni is going to grab some food and then to sleep. Be back much later. Peace. o. 2014-09-30T06:31:07Z tadni is afk. 2014-09-30T06:31:26Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:34:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T06:38:10Z beach: Time to get some work done. 2014-09-30T06:38:13Z beach left #lisp 2014-09-30T06:39:49Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T06:40:22Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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UML sequence diagrams don't really do it for me. 2014-09-30T07:55:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T07:55:25Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:00:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T08:00:44Z nimiux joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:02:21Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T08:02:32Z nimiux left #lisp 2014-09-30T08:08:09Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-09-30T08:08:59Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:10:02Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:10:04Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:13:05Z loke: Should I use the "zeromq" or the "pzmq" libraries for zmq? 2014-09-30T08:13:07Z nydel: moore33: what would you have in mind? everything's going to be some kind of relational db as a familial node, i think 2014-09-30T08:13:15Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:13:36Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T08:13:55Z moore33: nydel: Are you actually responding to me or loke? 2014-09-30T08:14:06Z nydel: moore33 2014-09-30T08:14:23Z moore33: hmm, brb 2014-09-30T08:15:17Z nydel: if there's an alternative visual option for displaying objects in clos (or in high-level functional language in general) i'd love to think on it 2014-09-30T08:16:07Z ndrei quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-30T08:16:10Z nydel: loke: are you able to quickload either one? 2014-09-30T08:16:14Z loke: yes 2014-09-30T08:16:17Z loke: and both works 2014-09-30T08:16:41Z loke: they have slightly different API's (very slightly) 2014-09-30T08:16:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:16:56Z loke: and I found a bug in pzmq in a call that I have no intention of using 2014-09-30T08:17:53Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T08:18:08Z nydel: i actually wasn't aware of this protocol, loke, but instant messaging systems is one of my primary fields of interest right now so i'm reading the 0mq spec now 2014-09-30T08:18:11Z knosys quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-09-30T08:19:28Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:19:31Z ndrei quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-30T08:19:53Z knosys joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:20:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:21:49Z nydel: immediately pzmq looks confusing by comparison whereas cl-zmq looks familiar, like many other ffi i use 2014-09-30T08:23:12Z wasamasa: knosys: there's a simple reason for not learning php 2014-09-30T08:23:17Z wasamasa: knosys: it's not designed at all 2014-09-30T08:23:38Z wasamasa: knosys: the only thing you'd learn by using it is how to fudge your way through everything 2014-09-30T08:24:11Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T08:24:28Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:24:49Z nydel: wasamasa: what would you recommend someone use as an alternative? just curious 2014-09-30T08:25:21Z wasamasa: nydel: pretty much anything else 2014-09-30T08:25:25Z wasamasa: nydel: ok, except bash 2014-09-30T08:25:39Z nydel: interesting, why not bash wasamasa ? 2014-09-30T08:25:46Z wasamasa: nydel: so if you're already proficient in CL, why not use that for the web application and emit a bit of html and css and js 2014-09-30T08:26:08Z wasamasa: nydel: haven't you heard about the shellshock bug? 2014-09-30T08:26:20Z nydel: yeah wasamasa i just don't think it's a bug 2014-09-30T08:26:46Z wasamasa: nydel: it's more of a sign that there's tons more things lurking in bash that make it unfit for anything more complex than an operating system installer 2014-09-30T08:26:56Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T08:27:01Z wasamasa: nydel: especially if the things are facing the internet 2014-09-30T08:28:05Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:28:18Z nydel: these exploits getting named & having logos drawn up to brand them.. such an odd phenomenon. i don't understand it perfectly yet but someone's doing something behind it all much different from the bollocks we see. 2014-09-30T08:28:49Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-30T08:29:04Z nydel: anyway this isn't #bash i was just wondering what you might recommend to a beginner to discourage them from php and encourage them toward something else 2014-09-30T08:29:11Z moore33: nydel: I'm thinking that a protocol diagram would not have objects as nodes, it would have generic functions there. But how to nicely illustrate the methods that implement the GFs? 2014-09-30T08:29:22Z wasamasa: nydel: basically any general-purpose language they're already proficient in 2014-09-30T08:29:34Z wasamasa: nydel: if they know ruby, let them use ruby, if they know python, let them use python 2014-09-30T08:29:40Z wasamasa: nydel: and if they know CL, why not CL? 2014-09-30T08:29:54Z wasamasa: nydel: all of those have the libraries to do server-side applications with 2014-09-30T08:30:06Z wasamasa: nydel: google for instance is still using C++ for some of theirs 2014-09-30T08:30:09Z nydel: moore33: what if the objects are the domains/ranges of the functions, which are the lines!? 2014-09-30T08:30:41Z nydel: then you could illustrate the intended flow of the program, function into function evaluating down to the final side-effect 2014-09-30T08:31:20Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T08:31:33Z wasamasa: nydel: a side effect from using a properly designed language with a (micro) framework is that they'll build safer applications with it :P 2014-09-30T08:31:43Z moore33: nydel: I think that's the idea, but the fact that GFs dispatch on multiple arguments is a complication. 2014-09-30T08:31:56Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T08:32:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:32:14Z dim: I find CL very suited to make web apps, hunchentoot + cl-who + yason and off you go, you can even make a simple self-contained binary with all the static ressources pre-compiled in there, it can't be easier to deploy (single binary executable file) 2014-09-30T08:33:57Z White_Flame hates generating HTML, so uses client-side libs and sends websocket messages to it to fill the page, referring to the lib's UI framework :-P 2014-09-30T08:34:35Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T08:34:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:34:54Z wasamasa: nydel: see http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ and http://eev.ee/blog/2012/07/28/quick-doesnt-mean-dirty/ 2014-09-30T08:35:00Z nydel: wait this is hard... [1-52] ----(draw-a-card)---> 2014-09-30T08:35:05Z Shinmera: White_Flame: That makes me shiver just to read 2014-09-30T08:35:16Z White_Flame: async messaging is conceptually easier 2014-09-30T08:35:22Z loke: nydel: cl-zmq doesn't work with zeromq 4.0 2014-09-30T08:35:25Z White_Flame: and libs like ExtJS make the front-end an app instead of a page generator 2014-09-30T08:35:26Z loke: so it's out 2014-09-30T08:35:26Z wasamasa: nydel: should be even less code with CL 2014-09-30T08:35:42Z nydel: i wanna draw a function spadep that has domain/range of 1-52/t,nil 2014-09-30T08:35:42Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-09-30T08:35:46Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-30T08:35:48Z nydel: oh let me have a look at that one sec 2014-09-30T08:35:49Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T08:36:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:36:54Z nydel: wasamasa: http://nydel.sdf.org -- that's my solution to CL for web 2014-09-30T08:38:00Z nydel: i dislike php very much myself but then i don't mind perl and i'd go as far as to say i like python 2014-09-30T08:38:09Z ndrei is now known as recover 2014-09-30T08:38:12Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:38:14Z nydel: weird, that. 2014-09-30T08:38:47Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:40:40Z recover quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T08:41:19Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:42:22Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T08:42:36Z nydel: moore33: in order to figure out what this different manner of CLOS visual display will be, i need to write (functionalp) which takes a function as an argument and returns true when the function-argument is written in functionally-sound style. any idea how one should go about this? 2014-09-30T08:43:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:44:23Z nydel: i can think of 1) hash table memoization 2) parse as string ... but i feel there's a third obvious option 2014-09-30T08:44:53Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-09-30T08:45:08Z moore33: nydel: Not really. Personally, I'm not so interested in diagramming existing code as in having a good visual language for design sketches and for documentation. 2014-09-30T08:45:17Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T08:45:28Z nydel: something to do before you write, not after? 2014-09-30T08:46:01Z moore33: nydel: Yes. 2014-09-30T08:46:47Z nydel: moore33: i wonder if you are currently working on something involving complex classes in CL? or either whether you have something in mind, etcetera, whichever way, what that thing is? 2014-09-30T08:46:48Z moore33: Or for documenting an existing protocol, which others will specialize. 2014-09-30T08:47:29Z moore33: nydel: Yes, I am currently working on something complex, in a domain that I know very well, but that I haven't used CL in before. 2014-09-30T08:49:06Z nydel: have you gotten around to using metaclasses? and cl-mop package? 2014-09-30T08:49:41Z moore33: nydel: In the past, sure, but I don't think MOPery will be needed here. 2014-09-30T08:51:13Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-30T08:51:44Z nydel: could you maybe explain what you're doing briefly if you wouldn't mind? i'm curious as to whether sorting functional programming from expressive programming is as relevant to this as i think 2014-09-30T08:52:10Z nydel: i'd love a better way to diagram and think of CLOS before i get started.. i've never gotten it to quite click properly for me. 2014-09-30T08:52:28Z nydel: (i think a lot of people give up on clos before it does click) 2014-09-30T08:53:17Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T08:54:36Z Shinmera: What do you expect out of CLOS that you think there's something to 'click'? 2014-09-30T08:54:39Z nydel: i've got this "vym/view your mind" software open & am trying to put something trivial involving classes into a representation where functions are not the boxes 2014-09-30T08:55:16Z moore33: nydel: Briefly, it's a library for 3D rendering in OpenGL. Don't know if you're familiar with the field, but I'm trying to do away with the strict tree organization of traditional scene graphs. The major complexity comes from the timing of the "user-update/GPU upload/render" cycle. 2014-09-30T08:55:49Z nydel: Shinmera: to be brief, i confess i probably avoid projects that are going to get complicated with classes in cl because i get so frustrated in the planning stage. what i'm missing? i don't know. but i believe it's a problem with myself not CLOS. 2014-09-30T08:56:31Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:56:35Z Shinmera: CL excels especially in prototyping. If you get stuck in planning you're doing it wrong imo. 2014-09-30T08:57:06Z nydel: i'm not in 3d graphics myself but i can follow that, you have local multiplex sockets handling real-time data which is video yeah? 2014-09-30T08:57:17Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-09-30T08:58:30Z nydel: not sockets. classes. 2014-09-30T08:59:26Z moore33: nydel: No. I'm certainly not dealing with video input, although that could be supported via dynamic uploading of data to the GPU. As for the output, you issue a bunch of commands to OpenGL to draw polygons in a framebuffer, then do a swap to display that buffer on the screen. 2014-09-30T08:59:45Z moore33 summarizes OpenGL in one sentence :) 2014-09-30T09:00:12Z nydel: ha 2014-09-30T09:01:06Z moore33: So the objects that represent interesting 3D artifacts are somewhat separated from the commands that draw them, and the optimal order for drawing has little to do with the user's hierarchy of objects. 2014-09-30T09:03:00Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:03:11Z nydel: this is really interesting moore33 please excuse my being a bit slow, i have to read closely as i don't work with or think in 3d graphics a lot (usually it's language or musical compositions) 2014-09-30T09:03:21Z Cymew: I think I missed something. What's the relation between all this 3d gfx stuff and clos? 2014-09-30T09:03:46Z nydel: that's what i'm trying to piece together Cymew 2014-09-30T09:04:00Z moore33: Cymew: I'm working on a 3d library written in CL. 2014-09-30T09:04:02Z Cymew: You're trying to do 3d gxf in CLOS 2014-09-30T09:04:05Z nydel: i was thinking of the "user-update/GPU upload/render" as a class-based REPL 2014-09-30T09:04:07Z moore33: So it's all about me. 2014-09-30T09:04:33Z Cymew: Ah, you are 2014-09-30T09:05:39Z Cymew: Not that I'm an expert in CLOS or anything, but I usually start with DEFMETHOD, i.e. what am I trying to do, not classes. Don't know if that helps, though. 2014-09-30T09:06:06Z moore33: nydel: Yes, interesting observation. In the visual simulation world (where stuff is usually written in C++), we might try to overlap user update with upload/render in different threads. 2014-09-30T09:07:24Z moore33: Cyew: I agree, but here the objects are so obvious, and management of their attribute data is so important, that I can't ignore them. 2014-09-30T09:07:38Z nydel: Cymew: that helps me actually, functionality first and let that lead to the object development. instead of class definition off the bat. but that's probably of little help to moore33 as i assume opengl has predefined API with classes 2014-09-30T09:07:49Z nydel: i need opengl crash course. finding. 2014-09-30T09:08:17Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:08:39Z White_Flame: There are a lot of older, respected at the time OpenGL tutorials that use the older fixed pipeline model. That's not too representative of the current state of things 2014-09-30T09:09:03Z simulacrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T09:09:06Z White_Flame: but many of the notions like uploading batches & reducing context switches are still relevant 2014-09-30T09:09:23Z moore33: White_Flame: Yes, and I am targeting OpenGL 3.3+ with all the buffer object fun. 2014-09-30T09:09:48Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:11:14Z Elench joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:11:26Z nydel: thank you White_Flame, i wonder if you or moore33 may have handy a link to a tutorial/intro to opengl concepts that lines up with how it is today? 2014-09-30T09:11:39Z nydel: (as i have no idea what i'm selecting) 2014-09-30T09:12:12Z White_Flame: unfortunately not 2014-09-30T09:12:55Z moore33: lemme see 2014-09-30T09:13:13Z moore33: http://www.arcsynthesis.org/gltut/ is pretty good if you're willing to plow through the chapters. 2014-09-30T09:13:40Z moore33: Not exactly an overview, though. 2014-09-30T09:13:44Z wasamasa: I like http://open.gl/ 2014-09-30T09:14:07Z nydel: thank you! willing i'm. i need a tangent & a big one, 3d graphics will do perfectly. 2014-09-30T09:14:22Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T09:14:23Z moore33: nydel: Enjoy :) 2014-09-30T09:14:27Z wasamasa: since it's the shortest useful one I came along 2014-09-30T09:17:17Z Cymew: moore33: So you need to have classes for the "obvious" objects and then concentration on getters/setters to do stuff with the attribute data? 2014-09-30T09:18:32Z moore33: Cymew: Yeah, like that, plus a lot of GFs and classes to manage OpenGL objects, particularly the buffers which live on the GPU. 2014-09-30T09:18:52Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-30T09:19:23Z theos joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:19:23Z Cymew: Sorry, GFs? Girlfriends was my first association... 2014-09-30T09:19:47Z Shinmera: Generic Functions 2014-09-30T09:19:52Z moore33: Cymew: generic functions, though not bad to think of girlfriends :) 2014-09-30T09:19:57Z Cymew facepalms 2014-09-30T09:20:19Z Cymew: Generic functions, naturally... 2014-09-30T09:21:12Z dim: any windows user around? would you use Lispworks and be done with the setup already or SBCL and buildapp and things, all controled from Emacs? 2014-09-30T09:21:21Z dim is being asked again about a pgloader.exe dist 2014-09-30T09:21:43Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:21:44Z Shinmera: I've had problems with SBCL on Windows, I'd rather recommend CCL (which buildapp works with too, iirc) 2014-09-30T09:21:48Z moore33: dlm: Do checkout ccl on Windows. I can't speak to buildapp, but otherwise I'm very happy with it. 2014-09-30T09:21:56Z Cymew: Last time I looked at OpenGL it was quite big. Lots of classes... 2014-09-30T09:22:24Z Cymew realize he should probably get back to that work task he was at, before looking up OpenGL docs... 2014-09-30T09:22:41Z Shinmera: dim: If buildapp doesn't work it's really easy to make the binary yourself with CCL. 2014-09-30T09:22:53Z moore33: Cymew: Yes, OpenGL is a big spec, but there are few basic concepts that tie everything together, and you can implement things incrementally. 2014-09-30T09:22:55Z Shinmera: I've done it for LASS, only took a quick googlin' for the CCL docs. 2014-09-30T09:23:39Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-30T09:24:56Z dim: thanks guys, CCL on windows sounds good, will probably have to try that someday... 2014-09-30T09:25:04Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-30T09:26:21Z White_Flame: dim: SBCL is getting better and better on windows. Haven't used it in a while, but it's well-supported, if not 100% mature 2014-09-30T09:26:45Z White_Flame: I've not had a single issue with CCL on Win, though, except for relative speed against SBCL 2014-09-30T09:27:34Z dim: mainly my worries are about using and testing for windows, and maybe having to adapt some code (pathnames, what have you), I'm not that worried about the lisp compiler as much as I am about setting up a dev environment 2014-09-30T09:28:39Z Shinmera: Well emacs and slime will be the same 2014-09-30T09:29:01Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:30:22Z moore33: Lately I've been staying booted up in Windows to play Crusader Kings 2, but the Lisp development experience has been quite pleasant. I found one bug in cffi for ccl/windows and submitted a fix. 2014-09-30T09:31:58Z Shinmera: The only real hurdle I can see is if you had to build some kind of external library 2014-09-30T09:32:07Z Shinmera: Since that's always a huge pain on Windows 2014-09-30T09:32:18Z moore33: Shinmera: Yes, I have been avoiding that so far. 2014-09-30T09:32:58Z xishvai left #lisp 2014-09-30T09:34:58Z dim: Shinmera: I have to use SQLite cffi in the build process already 2014-09-30T09:35:46Z Shinmera: dim: If your build-process is in CL you could use cl-sqlite for that, no? 2014-09-30T09:35:56Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. 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I'll let you know if anything comes up once he gets to that. 2014-09-30T09:38:21Z dim: thanks 2014-09-30T09:38:30Z dim: worst case would be pgloader.exe without sqlite support 2014-09-30T09:39:38Z dim: or maybe I would see how to use LispWorks on windows for Open Source only development and get rid of the limitations of the Personal Edition, or I would have to pay for the license then have a pay-for pgloader.exe for windows 2014-09-30T09:40:02Z dim: not sure people would buy pgloader.exe rather than just install some linux on a VM 2014-09-30T09:40:34Z Shinmera: Now sure how LispWorks would get rid of the dll problems. 2014-09-30T09:40:41Z Shinmera: *Not 2014-09-30T09:40:59Z dim: they seem to include some dll themselves and to be quite good at using system's ddl from what I read here and there 2014-09-30T09:41:32Z dim: I guess they user base actually is stronger on windows 2014-09-30T09:41:47Z rstandy joined #lisp 2014-09-30T09:43:21Z pranavrc quit (Read error: No route to host) 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-30T12:47:49Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-09-30T12:53:07Z Elench quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T12:54:47Z SvenGek joined #lisp 2014-09-30T12:55:50Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T12:56:29Z mearnsh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T12:57:25Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T12:57:32Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:01:09Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:01:54Z Elench joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:01:57Z clarkema joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:06:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: mental process ended into paranoid confusion) 2014-09-30T13:07:12Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:10:11Z clarkema: Xach: I remember reading a blog post of yours some time ago, to do with locking windows in Emacs. I've had a look around for it, but can't find it again -- I only remember it was on a site with a dark theme. Any chance you could point me in the right direction please? 2014-09-30T13:10:59Z Xach: clarkema: in slime? 2014-09-30T13:11:39Z clarkema: I'm not sure if it was slime-specific or not. It started complaining about things preventing you from altering the buffer in a window, fixed that, and then used the fix to manually lock other windows 2014-09-30T13:12:08Z Xach: clarkema: I don't remember writing anything like that, sorry. And a google site search of my blog isn't helping my memory. 2014-09-30T13:12:35Z Xach: I have rarely, if ever, written about emacs outside of a CL context. 2014-09-30T13:13:05Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:13:27Z codeburg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-30T13:14:00Z smithzv joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:14:39Z knosys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-30T13:16:04Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:16:34Z knosys joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:16:55Z clarkema: It may well have been to do with slime -- ISTR it was a work/lisp blog rather than your livejournal one 2014-09-30T13:17:11Z Xach: I don't have one of those. 2014-09-30T13:17:35Z clarkema: ok 2014-09-30T13:17:38Z clarkema: maybe misremembering 2014-09-30T13:17:40Z clarkema: thanks anyway 2014-09-30T13:17:52Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T13:18:09Z Xach: No problem. If I think of it, I'll let you know. 2014-09-30T13:18:51Z Xach: hmm, i *do* have every post ever made to planet lisp going back to 2004 2014-09-30T13:18:53Z Xach greps 2014-09-30T13:19:46Z Xach: nothing obvious, sorry. 2014-09-30T13:21:14Z stassats: maybe it was the other Xach, the Lee one 2014-09-30T13:21:19Z stassats: (sorry) 2014-09-30T13:21:39Z Xach: oh man. that seems very possible. 2014-09-30T13:23:18Z mearnsh joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:23:49Z clarkema: I'll keep looking 2014-09-30T13:24:04Z clarkema: all i really want is to force the repl to appear in a consistent place rather than hopping around 2014-09-30T13:25:34Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:26:17Z Krystof: it was probably brucio 2014-09-30T13:26:46Z phadthai: hmm I have some emacs config to setup windows and my repl starts at the same location (but this seems to need a redo with emacs >22, so I use emacs 22)... my repl stays where it is, but I have another issue: compile/debug errors may override any of my code buffers, randomly, and q doesn't necessarily restore them 2014-09-30T13:26:55Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:27:11Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-30T13:27:11Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-30T13:27:21Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-30T13:29:20Z macdice` joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:29:52Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T13:29:58Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-09-30T13:30:05Z macdice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T13:32:02Z pt1_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T13:32:03Z SvenGek quit (Quit: Bubuy) 2014-09-30T13:32:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:32:28Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-30T13:33:52Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:37:55Z normanrichards quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T13:38:28Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:39:01Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T13:39:02Z normanrichards quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T13:40:25Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-09-30T13:42:46Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:42:54Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:44:21Z dlowe: I eventually gave up trying to control it and let my windows swap all over the place. 2014-09-30T13:44:35Z pranavrc quit 2014-09-30T13:52:23Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:55:15Z drmeist__ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-09-30T13:55:28Z Adlai also learned to stop worrying and love the slime 2014-09-30T13:55:43Z Adlai: it gets really bad when you have multiple inferior lisps 2014-09-30T13:56:21Z Shinmera: What annoys me most is when the method inspector opens up windows all over the place as I go through the list 2014-09-30T13:56:42Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:56:50Z Adlai: what's the method inspector? or do you mean just inspecting a genfun object? 2014-09-30T13:57:04Z Shinmera: M-. on a GF 2014-09-30T13:57:08Z jordonbiondo joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:57:48Z drmeister_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T13:58:01Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:58:43Z Adlai: that one shouldn't be too bad. M-. to get the method list, n or p to get your desired method, q to close the method list, and then M-, to return 2014-09-30T13:59:08Z clarkema: Ah, I've found the blog post I was thinking of -- I'm not going _completely_ insane 2014-09-30T13:59:14Z clarkema: but it seems it was the wrong Zach 2014-09-30T13:59:40Z rme joined #lisp 2014-09-30T13:59:46Z clarkema: Sorry about that; automatic mapping I'm afraid -- 'Zach' in an emacs/lisp context -> xach 2014-09-30T14:00:01Z clarkema: http://directed-procrastination.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/some-emacs-hacks-for-gdb-and-other-stuff.html 2014-09-30T14:01:44Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T14:01:44Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-09-30T14:01:55Z Shinmera: Adlai: Sometimes it opens multiple new windows (instead of just reusing an existing one) to show the preview of the file as I go through the list 2014-09-30T14:02:13Z pjb: Adlai: early slime had some problems, but they've been over several years ago, slime is nice and good, even with multiple inferior lisps, in my experience. 2014-09-30T14:02:14Z Xach: ahh 2014-09-30T14:02:36Z clarkema: the price of fame, I'm afraid ;) 2014-09-30T14:02:40Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T14:02:44Z Adlai: pjb: is it possible to rename inferior lisps? 2014-09-30T14:03:01Z pjb: I've not tried that. 2014-09-30T14:03:23Z phadthai: hmm this makes me wonder if slime would be more tested on xemacs or such than on emacs-nox11 2014-09-30T14:03:37Z pjb: xemacs is not GNU emacs on X11. 2014-09-30T14:03:51Z phadthai: then there's also emacs+X11 2014-09-30T14:03:56Z phadthai: which I also don't use 2014-09-30T14:04:05Z pjb: But I'd guess it's more often used on X11 or Cocoa, than in the terminal. But it works nicely in the terminal too. 2014-09-30T14:04:16Z phadthai: that's what I use 2014-09-30T14:04:42Z pjb: The only thing with emacs on the terminal, is that you may have to add some convenient key bindings. 2014-09-30T14:04:51Z phadthai: yes 2014-09-30T14:05:13Z phadthai: and buffer manageent/setup convenience functions 2014-09-30T14:05:16Z phadthai: management 2014-09-30T14:06:32Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. 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What are you using if you don't mind me asking? 2014-09-30T15:13:01Z dlowe: xchat atm 2014-09-30T15:13:17Z dlowe: I don't notice the topic of channels at all on irssi 2014-09-30T15:13:44Z Shinmera: I suppose I'm just used to frequently reading the topic. 2014-09-30T15:14:15Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: The channel name and topic conflict - if it was #cl or #common-lisp there'd be no ambiguity ;) 2014-09-30T15:14:19Z contrapunctus: (sp?) 2014-09-30T15:14:33Z Shinmera: Well the topic takes precedence imo. 2014-09-30T15:14:39Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: first they took the .lisp file extension, now they're after the channel name, too :P 2014-09-30T15:14:42Z dlowe: #cl is sadly taken by Chileans 2014-09-30T15:14:45Z Krystof: anyway. Without getting too far into meta-discussion... 2014-09-30T15:15:17Z dlowe: Like everything in lisp, the reasons for its idiosyncrasies are historical... 2014-09-30T15:15:24Z eudoxia: hah 2014-09-30T15:15:30Z contrapunctus: Hey, wasamasa . Nice to see a friendly (? :p) face here (HisaoNakai from #emacs). 2014-09-30T15:15:54Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:16:13Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: I'm mostly reading the stuff in here and sometimes ask for clarification 2014-09-30T15:16:20Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: so, don't expect too much 2014-09-30T15:16:26Z contrapunctus: My question was more Lisp-comparative, so I guess I best take it to ##programming or something. 2014-09-30T15:17:04Z dlowe: honestly, google or stackoverflow would probably be better than IRC 2014-09-30T15:17:21Z dlowe: the opinions on each are mostly static and better suited for the web 2014-09-30T15:17:32Z Zhivago: Although you can still ask, if you're feeling lucky. 2014-09-30T15:17:48Z drmeiste_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-09-30T15:17:57Z contrapunctus: dlowe: Searches didn't help - well, atleast cursory ones didn't. 2014-09-30T15:18:12Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: sounds like a rather unspecific question then 2014-09-30T15:18:28Z drmeister__ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-09-30T15:18:48Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: or, too specific ;) I'll put it out here, then :) 2014-09-30T15:18:48Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T15:19:31Z Zhivago: Whitespace is not a valid question. 2014-09-30T15:20:18Z Shinmera: Maybe try #python 2014-09-30T15:21:49Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-09-30T15:22:24Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:25:30Z contrapunctus: I want to write a program that'll involve taking audio or MIDI (at user's option) input from a user and performing pitch and/or beat analysis on it. It's essential it run on Android, Linux, OS X as well as Windows. I initially considered C++ for it, but I'd really like to learn and use a Lisp instead. I don't know whether to go with Clojure (seems to have it's own set of issues on Android, as well as possibly also with audio), or with 2014-09-30T15:25:30Z contrapunctus: CL or Scheme (there seems to be Kawa and ABCL for the JVM, and Gambit-C and some others which compile to C). 2014-09-30T15:26:22Z contrapunctus: Zhivago: client bug. spews a blank line if there's a trailing whitespace >.> 2014-09-30T15:26:31Z eudoxia: i know nothing about audio, so i don't know what libraries are available to you for doing audio analysis 2014-09-30T15:26:45Z Zhivago: Remember that Android isn't JVM based. 2014-09-30T15:27:02Z eudoxia: CL will run fine on Linux, Windows, OS X and *BSD, probably not Android 2014-09-30T15:27:16Z eudoxia: well, there's mocl, but that's commercial 2014-09-30T15:27:17Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: you have no idea how much of a pain in the butt android is 2014-09-30T15:27:22Z dlowe: kawascheme works on android okay. You might want to look at mocl if you're not allergic to paying. 2014-09-30T15:27:25Z Zhivago: However, you can run native applications on android, although I'm not sure what degree of access you get to the UI, sound, etc, without java. 2014-09-30T15:27:40Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: doing a proper iOS application isn't simple either 2014-09-30T15:28:00Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:28:05Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: heck, I'd say it's bad enough to support windows once you use things such as FFI to have database access and such 2014-09-30T15:28:19Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: iPhone isn't important...but Android and the three desktops are critical :( 2014-09-30T15:28:20Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T15:28:41Z Grue`: seems too ambitious to me 2014-09-30T15:28:44Z wasamasa: ^ 2014-09-30T15:28:45Z Grue`: try one platform first 2014-09-30T15:28:54Z dlowe: yeah, what Grue` said. 2014-09-30T15:29:05Z dlowe: That said, Common Lisp would be an excellent start 2014-09-30T15:29:06Z eudoxia: i don't understand why android is vital, yet no other mobile platform is? 2014-09-30T15:29:20Z contrapunctus: Grue`: That's the intention, but one does want to plan ahead and not make any bad choices early on :\ 2014-09-30T15:29:42Z Shinmera: Maybe the bad choice early on is to want to support all platforms 2014-09-30T15:29:47Z Xach: In my experience, it's better to charge ahead and be flexible in the face of setbacks. 2014-09-30T15:30:05Z wasamasa: I'd worry about making it work properly on one platform first 2014-09-30T15:30:15Z wasamasa: then see whether it's popular enough to warrant the work for other platforms 2014-09-30T15:30:38Z eudoxia: contrapunctus: I'd say CL is a good choice here, since portability across all three major desktops and performance are hard requirements 2014-09-30T15:32:16Z contrapunctus: eudoxia: what ought I do for Android, though? 2014-09-30T15:32:17Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T15:32:30Z dlowe: contrapunctus: if it's that big a project, you hire someone :p 2014-09-30T15:32:47Z Shinmera: Well, there are CL implementations that run on ARM, so you could see about somehow bootstrapping that through an android app or summat. 2014-09-30T15:32:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T15:32:48Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: you learn java, you learn to use the android sdk, you learn to deploy applications, you learn how to integrate native code into it 2014-09-30T15:32:58Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: and hit UI issues over and over again 2014-09-30T15:33:00Z eudoxia: contrapunctus: does it have to run on the user's computer, or could it be a web application? 2014-09-30T15:33:03Z dlowe: Incidentally, I just took over ##lisp for general lisp-family topics 2014-09-30T15:33:11Z wasamasa: dlowe: oh nice 2014-09-30T15:33:14Z contrapunctus: dlowe: it's a libre project, someone might join in :D 2014-09-30T15:33:16Z eudoxia: like, an android app that queries a web service written in C 2014-09-30T15:33:21Z eudoxia: CL* 2014-09-30T15:33:22Z dlowe: contrapunctus: hah. don't count on it. 2014-09-30T15:33:32Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: so wait, what is the general idea behind it 2014-09-30T15:33:41Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: why do you want it to be available on all these platforms? 2014-09-30T15:33:57Z moore33: ECL works well enough on Android to run maxima... 2014-09-30T15:34:07Z contrapunctus: eudoxia: I considered HTML5 but the implementation on (atleast libre) browsers seems to be rather patchy. 2014-09-30T15:34:07Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T15:34:20Z eudoxia: moore33: wow, i did not know that 2014-09-30T15:34:30Z dlowe: moore33: neat! 2014-09-30T15:34:46Z moore33: eudoxia: It's pretty great! I had nothing to do with it, just downloaded it from the play store. 2014-09-30T15:35:26Z moore33: It uses MathJAX for rendering the output. 2014-09-30T15:35:29Z Shinmera: Didn't stassats say something at some point about making an android app for SBCL? 2014-09-30T15:35:58Z Grue`: can ECL compile SBCL? 2014-09-30T15:36:11Z Shinmera: SBCL works on Android, I know that much 2014-09-30T15:36:16Z eudoxia: >Maxima on Android is a combination of many open source software: ECL on Android, MathJax, and Maxima itself. I wrote roughly a thousand lines of Java code and 50 lines of HTML including Javascript code. 2014-09-30T15:36:20Z Shinmera: I meant more the integration into the "app" ecosystem 2014-09-30T15:36:57Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T15:37:30Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: if it's just something you do for the heck of it, a web application would be the best to reach as many people as possible 2014-09-30T15:37:37Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: still finicky enough, but manageable 2014-09-30T15:38:10Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: Well...it's an ear training application. Android is what I own and would like to use it on. There's no application for this on it. The web-based ones use Flash, or Java, or HTML5, and libre browsers on Android (...Firefox >_>) can't run that stuff at all. 2014-09-30T15:38:47Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: there is no chromium? 2014-09-30T15:38:58Z Grue`: i'd be surprised if android firefox didn't support all the necessary api 2014-09-30T15:39:12Z Grue`: it's basically the same codebase as desktop firefox 2014-09-30T15:39:15Z wasamasa: besides, isn't this just audio elements you toggle playback for? 2014-09-30T15:39:40Z wasamasa: I've seen a demo for such a thing from a parody website 2014-09-30T15:41:02Z byte48 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T15:41:05Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-30T15:41:12Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: in the sound area, it'll have a sampler (=plays a sound for a MIDI note), a MIDI generator, possibly also a synth, and an audio pitch and beat detector. 2014-09-30T15:41:12Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T15:41:39Z contrapunctus: (strange, I definitely checked and there was no trailing whitespace in that last one...) 2014-09-30T15:41:58Z BitPuffin quit (Quit: See you on the dark side of the moon!) 2014-09-30T15:41:58Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:42:25Z normanrichards quit 2014-09-30T15:42:27Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:42:39Z wasamasa: if this works on android for you, then you should have at least half of that: http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=%28t%3C%3C3%29*%5B8%2F9%2C1%2C9%2F8%2C6%2F5%2C4%2F3%2C3%2F2%2C0%5D%5B%5B0xd2d2c8%2C0xce4088%2C0xca32c8%2C0x8e4009%5D%5Bt%3E%3E14%263%5D%3E%3E%280x3dbe4688%3E%3E%28%28t%3E%3E10%2615%29%3E9%3F18%3At%3E%3E10%2615%29*3%267%29*3%267%20%5D&rate=8000 2014-09-30T15:43:00Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-30T15:43:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:44:38Z clop: is there a good way to write a macro that does, e.g., `(if *foo* (progn . ,forms) (with-something (progn . ,forms)), which doesn't duplicate the forms? 2014-09-30T15:45:27Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: chromium is libre but has a lot of anti-features. I don't want to rely on something like that. I get no sound when I hit 'Generate Sound', in dwb (desktop browser, WebKit-based). Checking in Firefox now... 2014-09-30T15:45:57Z wasamasa: works in desktop firefox for me 2014-09-30T15:46:31Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:46:35Z murftown joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:46:44Z Grue`: clop: if with-something is a macro, i don't think it's possible, because "else" part could be anything then 2014-09-30T15:47:14Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: ...it works in desktop Firefox. Classy choice of music, btw. 2014-09-30T15:47:20Z Grue`: also (progn ,@forms) is more standard way to write this 2014-09-30T15:48:05Z murftown: Hey guys, I have a common lisp question: let's say I have a really simple macro: "(defmacro m (a b) (progn a b))". My question is, when I run (M (print 3) (print 4)) it only prints the 4, not the 3. Why? 2014-09-30T15:49:07Z Xach: murftown: because that is what the source code returned by your macro does. 2014-09-30T15:49:29Z Grue`: murftown: think about your macro as a function, what does it return when passed '(print 3) and '(print 4) as arguments? 2014-09-30T15:49:32Z Xach: murftown: it receives the lists (PRINT 3) and (PRINT 4) as arguments and returns the list (PRINT 4) as result. 2014-09-30T15:49:52Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:50:37Z clarkema: (pprint (macroexpand-1 '(m (print 3) (print 4)))) 2014-09-30T15:50:38Z clarkema: (PRINT 4) 2014-09-30T15:50:51Z clarkema: (defmacro n (a b) `(progn ,a ,b)) 2014-09-30T15:50:53Z sjl: ha 2014-09-30T15:50:53Z clarkema: (pprint (macroexpand-1 '(n (print 3) (print 4)))) 2014-09-30T15:50:54Z clarkema: (PROGN (PRINT 3) (PRINT 4)) 2014-09-30T15:51:41Z murftown: Ok that makes sense! Thanks everyone! 2014-09-30T15:51:52Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: I guess the HTML5 situation's changed from when I began, then. Sad, I'd have liked to have used a Lisp :\ 2014-09-30T15:52:04Z murftown: clarkema: that macroexpand-1 is just what I needed btw, thanks! 2014-09-30T15:52:06Z Grue`: you can still use lisp as a backend 2014-09-30T15:52:09Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: you can still use parenscript 2014-09-30T15:52:20Z DTSCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T15:52:26Z contrapunctus: wasamasa: a what? o.o' 2014-09-30T15:52:45Z contrapunctus: Grue`: how's that? 2014-09-30T15:52:47Z wasamasa: contrapunctus: or something else compiling to JS, but you'd have a layer of indirection then and would need to figure out how to integrate external JS libraries 2014-09-30T15:53:11Z eudoxia: contrapunctus: you can offload the heavy processing to a webservice, which can be written in CL 2014-09-30T15:53:21Z eudoxia: contrapunctus: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman 2014-09-30T15:53:48Z contrapunctus: >compiling to JS ...ClojureScript :D 2014-09-30T15:53:52Z contrapunctus: eudoxia: nice 2014-09-30T15:54:23Z DTSCode joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:55:38Z byte48 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:56:21Z contrapunctus: Well, this is great, I'll start looking into HTML5-based solutions, then. Thanks, everyone :) 2014-09-30T15:56:25Z Grue`: contrapunctus: web development is not all javascript, some stuff happens client-side, some stuff happens server-side. server side can be any language 2014-09-30T15:56:36Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-30T15:56:39Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:57:00Z rstandy` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T15:57:17Z rstandy` joined #lisp 2014-09-30T15:57:51Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T15:58:01Z rstandy` left #lisp 2014-09-30T15:58:33Z contrapunctus: Grue`: cool 2014-09-30T15:58:33Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T15:58:46Z oGMo: it could be no JS or HTML at all :p 2014-09-30T15:58:57Z contrapunctus: additionally - https://github.com/anthonyf/lunula 2014-09-30T15:59:32Z eudoxia: CL is a pretty big language, how complete is lunula? 2014-09-30T15:59:41Z oGMo: or how useful :P 2014-09-30T15:59:43Z eudoxia: i think JSCL is more complete https://github.com/davazp/jscl 2014-09-30T15:59:47Z oGMo: (i mean, neat, but) 2014-09-30T16:00:02Z eudoxia: to be honest, i don't particularly want to generate JS from Common Lisp 2014-09-30T16:00:07Z eudoxia: i mean i love Common Lisp and all 2014-09-30T16:00:11Z oGMo: eudoxia: exactly 2014-09-30T16:00:11Z eudoxia: but i just use javascript 2014-09-30T16:00:19Z contrapunctus: eudoxia: o.O Why? 2014-09-30T16:00:19Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T16:00:20Z oGMo: thought tbh, i don't want to use javascript at all, either 2014-09-30T16:00:22Z eudoxia: i'm more intersted in the opposite path 2014-09-30T16:00:31Z eudoxia: compiling JS libraries to common lisp 2014-09-30T16:00:34Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-09-30T16:00:45Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:00:46Z contrapunctus: eudoxia: and what about Clojure/ClojureScript? 2014-09-30T16:00:47Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T16:00:54Z oGMo: parenscript is a good demonstration of why these things may be less useful than you'd think 2014-09-30T16:00:54Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:01:06Z oGMo: contrapunctus: what _about_ them? 2014-09-30T16:01:40Z oGMo: CL doesn't have to keep up with the joneses or whatever 2014-09-30T16:01:49Z eudoxia: contrapunctus: i gave Clojure a try, and don't believe it's a good enough improvement over common lisp for me to switch, really 2014-09-30T16:01:58Z contrapunctus: oGMo: from the sounds of it they seem like an answer to Lisp<->JS. 2014-09-30T16:01:58Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T16:02:03Z contrapunctus: eudoxia: I see. 2014-09-30T16:02:12Z oGMo: contrapunctus: an answer to what sounds like a really crappy question 2014-09-30T16:02:16Z eudoxia: JavaScript isn't so horrible, really 2014-09-30T16:02:18Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-30T16:02:29Z eudoxia: the other day I had to write some jQuery and once you lower your expectations isn't only half bad 2014-09-30T16:02:35Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:02:43Z oGMo: eudoxia: actually it's pretty horrible, but there are definitely worse things 2014-09-30T16:03:08Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-30T16:03:09Z knosys quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-09-30T16:03:26Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:03:41Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:04:03Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-30T16:04:21Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:04:58Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-30T16:05:18Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:05:51Z oGMo: it's maybe only a step worse than ruby or python, and a lot more fun to deal with than say C++, but at some point you're just asking what color you'd prefer the wall you're going to bang your head against all day 2014-09-30T16:05:54Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-30T16:06:11Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-30T16:06:59Z murftown: are any of you guys into perl? it seems to me like perl and lisp are sort of opposites in a way: the most complex grammar ever and the simplest 2014-09-30T16:07:06Z oGMo: but i think it's perfectly reasonable to have one client blob in the browser you never touch, and do everything server side 2014-09-30T16:07:56Z eudoxia: murftown: never really used it, but i'm sympathetic because of its underdog status 2014-09-30T16:08:21Z oGMo: perl is a great example of worse :P 2014-09-30T16:08:31Z p_l: myself and Perl keep a distance, both are happier this way 2014-09-30T16:08:37Z murftown: eudoxia: right? gotta love the underdogs 2014-09-30T16:08:43Z oGMo: no you really don't 2014-09-30T16:09:03Z p_l: also, Perl? an Underdog? pfft 2014-09-30T16:09:09Z eudoxia: murftown: we have to hang together 2014-09-30T16:09:14Z oGMo: p_l: seriously 2014-09-30T16:09:19Z paroneayea: perl is probably an underdog *now*. 2014-09-30T16:09:24Z paroneayea: not in the late 90s. 2014-09-30T16:09:36Z paroneayea: or mid 90s even 2014-09-30T16:09:48Z p_l: it's enjoying retirement, I guess 2014-09-30T16:09:57Z murftown: p_I: yeah I know it the thing forever. definitely seems to be receding…but isn't a huge amount of our internet / unix infrastructure still built on perl? 2014-09-30T16:10:07Z murftown: I know it *was* the thing forever 2014-09-30T16:10:09Z oGMo: how is this on-topic? 2014-09-30T16:10:34Z p_l: it's not. 2014-09-30T16:10:41Z murftown: oGMo: you're right, oops we wasted some txt 2014-09-30T16:10:47Z rme left #lisp 2014-09-30T16:11:26Z contrapunctus: scnr - https://xkcd.com/224/ 2014-09-30T16:11:48Z eudoxia: fun fact, i first tried lisp because "hey the xkcd guy says its good" 2014-09-30T16:12:23Z murftown: ah xkcd! 2014-09-30T16:12:51Z moore33: perl is actually very Lispy; has closures! 2014-09-30T16:13:46Z Grue`: pfft, I tried Lisp because Douglas Hofstadter's Godel Escher Bach mentioned SHRDLU and I wanted to run it 2014-09-30T16:14:14Z moore33: Grue: Does SHRDLU run in anything other than MacLisp? 2014-09-30T16:14:26Z Grue`: there's a port to common lisp 2014-09-30T16:14:32Z moore33: ok 2014-09-30T16:14:54Z Shinmera: I tried lisp because it looked different 2014-09-30T16:14:58Z Shinmera puts on his hipster glasses 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how to program at all. 2014-09-30T17:37:54Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T17:39:07Z CatMtKing quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-30T17:40:10Z lifenoodles joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:40:27Z MouldyOl1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-30T17:43:25Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T17:43:26Z troydm joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:43:31Z knosys joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:43:46Z knosys quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T17:44:10Z knosys joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:45:33Z tadni: knosys: Wb. 2014-09-30T17:45:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:45:59Z H4ns: i tried lisp because i have a soft spot for computing antiques, and a friend showed me a symbolics lisp machine 2014-09-30T17:46:20Z tadni: H4ns: To the last bit, lucky. 2014-09-30T17:46:38Z tadni: I tried setting up a vm yesterday and ran into a dozen or so issues. 2014-09-30T17:46:41Z contrapunctus: dlowe: Well, that's what one calls ideal o.O 2014-09-30T17:46:41Z contrapunctus: 2014-09-30T17:46:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:47:01Z contrapunctus is now known as HisaoNakai 2014-09-30T17:47:04Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:47:12Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:47:17Z eudoxia: i ran https://github.com/marsam/opengenera no problems 2014-09-30T17:47:48Z H4ns: no problems until you tried to save the world, i guess? 2014-09-30T17:48:17Z tadni: eudoxia: I tried an similar build script, but it borked trying to download ubuntu. 2014-09-30T17:49:22Z H4ns: tadni: i'd say if that bit could stop you, you've not tried very hard. and you would probably be disappointed by the real issues that you'll run into later :) 2014-09-30T17:49:48Z c107 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:50:03Z tadni: H4ns: I was also going on 40 hours awake at the time, and irritated. 2014-09-30T17:50:08Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-30T17:50:50Z MouldyOl1 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T17:51:31Z knosys quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-09-30T17:52:24Z sz0 quit (Quit: My 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2014-09-30T18:35:44Z theseb: i.e. if you make bad macros you're screwed yes? 2014-09-30T18:35:55Z theseb: your* 2014-09-30T18:36:00Z tadni: theseb: Define screwed? 2014-09-30T18:36:00Z theseb: s/so/to 2014-09-30T18:36:20Z Shinmera: Also, what's a 'bad macro' in this context? 2014-09-30T18:36:33Z theseb: tadni: i'm just saying....elegant robust powerful macros will be a godsend....but if they are poorly designed then i'd guess not so godly 2014-09-30T18:36:42Z stassats: i don't think defining a macro counts as language design 2014-09-30T18:36:46Z theseb: tadni, Shinmera: i'm just talking in general theory 2014-09-30T18:36:50Z theseb: i haven't done this yet 2014-09-30T18:36:56Z theseb: just trying to think what could go wrong 2014-09-30T18:37:12Z tadni: EDSLs are probably one of the biggest draws, for me to Lisps. 2014-09-30T18:37:16Z H4ns: theseb: yes. you are right. languages designed by bad designers suck. 2014-09-30T18:37:20Z theseb: Shinmera: isn't the way to make DSLs by making massive macros? 2014-09-30T18:37:49Z theseb: tadni: that is sooo cool....making your own language to solve a problem 2014-09-30T18:37:50Z Shinmera: Depends on your requirements for a DSL and at which point you consider something a DSL rather than just an extension of the language. 2014-09-30T18:38:38Z stassats: it's all about abstraction, you make things you do often to be easier 2014-09-30T18:38:53Z stassats: it's not a new language, just a new level of abstraction 2014-09-30T18:39:37Z H4ns: in my experience, you rarely need to create what would be a dsl in lisp. you just add enough functions and maybe a few macros to make the resulting code contain only constructs that are relevant on the level of abstraction that you want to address. 2014-09-30T18:40:08Z stassats: and CLOS protocols 2014-09-30T18:40:13Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:40:58Z stassats: the DSL mantra is just lisp zealots trying to win over naive newcomers 2014-09-30T18:41:09Z H4ns: :D 2014-09-30T18:41:37Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T18:41:44Z tadni: Someone got in an argument with me yesterday, that Lisps were hipster langs. 2014-09-30T18:41:53Z H4ns: so? 2014-09-30T18:41:57Z tadni: And that's the only reason anyone still uses them. 2014-09-30T18:42:07Z tadni: someone: Nice job, someone. 2014-09-30T18:42:21Z stassats: you're mistaking white wizard beards lispers have with hipster beards 2014-09-30T18:42:31Z tadni: stassats: I'm not. 2014-09-30T18:42:47Z theseb: stassats, H4ns: i'm guessing the whole DSL technique of Lisp really shines when you have a super complex app...like AI stuff? 2014-09-30T18:42:49Z H4ns: it is not easy to mix up the average smug lisp wheenie for a generic hipste, i'd say. 2014-09-30T18:43:06Z tadni: I thought it was such a weird conversation. He was sourcing Tumblr and the maybe 100 lisp fans on there. 2014-09-30T18:43:11Z theseb: so basically...hardcore bleeding edge stuff is perfect for lisp 2014-09-30T18:43:21Z HisaoNakai: troll detected. 2014-09-30T18:43:51Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T18:44:18Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-30T18:44:24Z Shinmera: theseb: What about the cloud though 2014-09-30T18:44:38Z theseb: Shinmera: what about it? 2014-09-30T18:44:46Z Shinmera: I'm mocking your use of buzzwords. 2014-09-30T18:44:54Z stacksmith: Yeah, man, lisp is really, like, authentic. 2014-09-30T18:44:56Z H4ns: super complex cloud based ai apps oh my 2014-09-30T18:45:02Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:45:11Z theseb: i'm thinking of that company that did that travel app and got bought by google for a billion iirc 2014-09-30T18:45:19Z H4ns: damn. i wanted to put "big data" into the mix. 2014-09-30T18:45:21Z theseb: i think it starts with an i 2014-09-30T18:45:25Z theseb: Ito or some such 2014-09-30T18:45:29Z stacksmith waxes his hipster mustache 2014-09-30T18:45:32Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:45:34Z stassats: theseb: either you are trying to come with an easy to use language for a problem, then making macros etc. isn't a great idea, since it's hard to make them safe 2014-09-30T18:45:49Z theseb: ITA! 2014-09-30T18:45:52Z theseb: yes that's it 2014-09-30T18:46:01Z stassats: so, you need to parse and compile them yourself, though it's easy with lisp (anything is easier, for that matter) 2014-09-30T18:46:44Z theseb: When I imagine my dream usage for Lisp....I think of doing some brilliant complex AI/machine learning thingie with lots of macros ...then the startup gets bought out for a billion or so 2014-09-30T18:46:45Z stassats: or you are trying to solve some problem, then it's easier to modify your requirements to use ordinary lisp constructs, like functions and macros 2014-09-30T18:46:45Z Shinmera: H4ns: Don't forget about SaaS 2014-09-30T18:46:55Z theseb: like ITA 2014-09-30T18:46:56Z stassats: so, DSLs with macros are pretty useless 2014-09-30T18:47:00Z theseb: ITA is my model of success 2014-09-30T18:48:12Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-30T18:48:15Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-30T18:49:13Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:49:37Z theseb: stassats: wait..just to make sure i'm not totally wrong......lispers *make* DSLs with macros right? 2014-09-30T18:49:41Z nonamae joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:50:05Z stassats: most of the macros i wouldn't call DSLs 2014-09-30T18:50:06Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T18:50:24Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-30T18:50:36Z stassats: most macros follow simple patterns 2014-09-30T18:50:55Z theseb: stassats: but presumably if you did want to make a DSL you do it with massive macros right? 2014-09-30T18:51:13Z dlowe: theseb: you've been reading Paul Graham, haven't you 2014-09-30T18:51:28Z stassats: no, i just said above, if you are targeting a non-expert crowd, macros aren't well suited 2014-09-30T18:51:35Z H4ns: more massive macros! 2014-09-30T18:51:37Z stassats: if you're targeting an expert-crowd, you don't need a new language 2014-09-30T18:51:50Z dlowe: actually, when I want to make a DSL, I usually make another interpreted lisp entirely. 2014-09-30T18:51:59Z dlowe: so chew on that. 2014-09-30T18:52:08Z stassats: i did write a scripting language for data processing, i parsed and compiled it by hand, no macros 2014-09-30T18:52:48Z tadni: dlowe: What's the point of that? Is a non-standardized lisp then, I assume? 2014-09-30T18:52:59Z stassats: compiling to lisp is a joy, naturally 2014-09-30T18:53:15Z dlowe: tadni: xu do klama fo la irci lojban 2014-09-30T18:53:54Z dlowe: tadni: sure, it's a tiny DSL lisp that doesn't have extra capabilities to break things 2014-09-30T18:53:56Z Grue`: if a macro is massive, it's really in need of refactoring 2014-09-30T18:54:20Z theseb: dlowe: yes :) 2014-09-30T18:54:28Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:54:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:55:00Z tadni: dlowe: Yup. 2014-09-30T18:55:29Z theseb: dlowe: holy hell....the only thing more hardcore than making a DSL with many macros is writing your own language from the metal 2014-09-30T18:55:59Z tadni still wants to writes some macros, to basically fix his ocd for the ugly defun not being deffun and stuff like that. 2014-09-30T18:56:03Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:56:17Z theseb: tadni: right...stuff like that is easy and fine 2014-09-30T18:56:24Z theseb: tadni: or replace lambda with func 2014-09-30T18:56:24Z dlowe: then others will not want to work on your code. 2014-09-30T18:56:37Z tadni: dlowe: Yeah, that's my dilema. 2014-09-30T18:56:56Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:57:02Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-09-30T18:57:07Z theseb: dlowe: BUT!!! there is no reason to reinvent the wheel dude....the whole point of macros is you give you the clay to make languages w/o needing to start from scratch no? 2014-09-30T18:57:16Z Grue`: this reminds me of an ugly macro i wrote recently, i spent like 2 hours writing it and then used it only 5 times and not even all the features that were implemented 2014-09-30T18:57:19Z holycow joined #lisp 2014-09-30T18:57:25Z holycow is now known as Guest94951 2014-09-30T18:57:37Z Grue`: what's worse is that it's very specific so it can't even be reused for anything else 2014-09-30T18:57:50Z dlowe: the point of macros is to provide syntactic abstractions not anticipated by the language creators. 2014-09-30T18:58:17Z tadni sees himself just "dealing with it" and eventually just writing his own hobby implmentation with the few minor things implemented/changed. 2014-09-30T18:58:21Z theseb: Grue`: lol..that's funny 2014-09-30T18:58:21Z dlowe: while you *can* make an entirely language out of that, don't expect others to join on your descent into madness 2014-09-30T18:58:22Z Grue`: here's the code https://github.com/tshatrov/ichiran/blob/master/dict.lisp#L335 2014-09-30T18:58:53Z H4ns: Grue`: ieh 2014-09-30T18:59:18Z Grue`: it uses push/nreverse pattern with freaking forms! 2014-09-30T18:59:22Z oudeis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T18:59:27Z Shinmera: Grue`: That certainly is a thing. 2014-09-30T18:59:27Z theseb: dlowe: lol 2014-09-30T18:59:30Z H4ns: Grue`: but super complex hardcore for sure. 2014-09-30T19:00:24Z theseb: dlowe: how did you know i've been reading P Graham?...lemmie guess every once is a while a PG fanboy comes into the channel who had read all his papers and you guys hate that? 2014-09-30T19:00:41Z bjorkintosh: his essays, you mean? 2014-09-30T19:00:43Z Xach: theseb: It is actually a rare thing these days 2014-09-30T19:00:46Z bjorkintosh: he doesn't write papers that often. 2014-09-30T19:00:46Z stassats: pg hates common lisp 2014-09-30T19:00:52Z dlowe: theseb: not hate, but PG has a very idiosyncratic style and it's easily recognizable 2014-09-30T19:00:56Z Bicyclidine: it's hard to like a fanboy 2014-09-30T19:01:02Z stassats: maybe not hate, but doesn't like 2014-09-30T19:01:09Z bjorkintosh: even if the fanboy's one of you? 2014-09-30T19:01:12Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-09-30T19:01:15Z bjorkintosh: divide, always. 2014-09-30T19:01:24Z bjorkintosh: never cons! 2014-09-30T19:01:41Z Bicyclidine: you can divide more efficiently by multiplying and shifting the result 2014-09-30T19:01:44Z bjorkintosh: (to mix metaphors). 2014-09-30T19:01:46Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:01:46Z Shinmera: I don't like fanatics of any kind 2014-09-30T19:01:54Z stassats: not all processors have division operators 2014-09-30T19:02:07Z bjorkintosh: that's a fanatical stand, Shinmera. 2014-09-30T19:02:30Z theseb: lol 2014-09-30T19:02:35Z Shinmera: bjorkintosh: uuh, no. 2014-09-30T19:02:40Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:02:51Z theseb: Shinmera: all extremists should be shot? 2014-09-30T19:03:02Z stassats: this sentence is false 2014-09-30T19:04:00Z Xach: You can find plenty of CL hate in http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html 2014-09-30T19:04:09Z Shinmera: theseb: That would be fanatic. 2014-09-30T19:04:23Z H4ns: theseb: you need to get your hands dirty instead of phantasizing about the grandiose things that you would do if you actually knew lisp. 2014-09-30T19:05:19Z theseb: stassats: i agree if you write a DSL with many macros you'll have a hard time getting devs to help you....that whole DSL fantasy really works best if you got some closet genius writing the great American lisp app all by himself over many years that will change the world 2014-09-30T19:05:46Z Xach: Lisp seems to attract a fair share of those types 2014-09-30T19:05:48Z theseb: once you have > 1 developers.....give up on DSLs 2014-09-30T19:06:01Z H4ns: m( 2014-09-30T19:06:09Z Xach is reminded of the "if you think big enough, you never have to do it" .sig 2014-09-30T19:07:03Z H4ns: should anyone be interested: both ccl and sbcl now support ipv6 on their respective trunks. more testing is needed. 2014-09-30T19:07:20Z stassats: how to ipv6? 2014-09-30T19:07:24Z Shinmera: H4ns: Nice! 2014-09-30T19:07:46Z theseb was going to ask H4ns if he did ipv6 with a DSL but refrains 2014-09-30T19:07:48Z H4ns: stassats: localhost would do. 2014-09-30T19:08:03Z rme: H4ns did the work for ccl, by the way. 2014-09-30T19:08:09Z H4ns: \o 2014-09-30T19:08:45Z H4ns: hunchentoot and drakma should somewhat work as well. 2014-09-30T19:08:51Z stassats: will ipv7 have a larger screen? 2014-09-30T19:08:57Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:09:00Z theseb: H4ns: fwiw..i'm actually writing my own lisp implementation to learn lisp 2014-09-30T19:09:35Z stassats: theseb: that's not the best way to stay motivated 2014-09-30T19:09:37Z tadni: theseb: Assumingly CL? 2014-09-30T19:09:41Z H4ns: theseb: that would be like "i'm designing my own latin because i want to learn latin" 2014-09-30T19:09:53Z tadni: H4ns: Nah. 2014-09-30T19:10:10Z theseb: tadni: whoa..implementing the entire CL spec would be too hardcore....i just mean the basics 2014-09-30T19:10:11Z stassats: pig-cl? 2014-09-30T19:10:12Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-30T19:10:12Z dlowe: H4ns: thanks a bunch. 2014-09-30T19:11:08Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T19:11:51Z stassats: (efunday unctionfay (arameterpay) ..) 2014-09-30T19:11:54Z husker joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:14:17Z theseb: H4ns: oh i know why writing a lisp may be ok...i'm interested in language theory more than writing practical apps..i'm a teacher....think....the SICP mindset 2014-09-30T19:14:26Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:14:41Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:15:03Z stassats: is this an example of "those who can't, teach"? 2014-09-30T19:15:21Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T19:15:26Z H4ns: ah yeah, if you can ignore all practical aspects, it is much easier to be enthusiastic about all the possibilities. 2014-09-30T19:15:44Z H4ns: let your poor students deal with figuring out how to produce something with it. 2014-09-30T19:16:00Z theseb: stassats: nah...i'm a physicist by trade....i've always had this mentality that tries to understand things at a deep level...it is the equivalent of those hacker types that always took appliances apart as kids 2014-09-30T19:16:39Z dlowe: theseb: if you go through the SICP exercises, you will in fact write a lisp. 2014-09-30T19:16:41Z drmeister_: stassats: What system do you run on? 2014-09-30T19:16:49Z theseb: dlowe: yup 2014-09-30T19:16:50Z drmeister_: Operating system? 2014-09-30T19:17:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T19:17:16Z drmeister_: Clasp appears to be running on Debian Jessie/Sid and Gentoo 2014-09-30T19:18:03Z stassats: drmeister_: debian sid x86-64 2014-09-30T19:18:40Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:18:40Z drmeister_: theseb: For one end of the spectrum - I'm a chemistry professor - I just spent three years developing a new implementation of Common Lisp - it's a great learning experience. 2014-09-30T19:18:51Z theseb: stassats: wow...debian? you didn't decide to buntu? 2014-09-30T19:18:52Z ivan\_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:19:03Z stassats: drmeister_: how hard is it to build now? 2014-09-30T19:19:11Z theseb: drmeister: awesome! 2014-09-30T19:19:15Z drmeister_: stassats: Well if you are still interested in exposing Qt I think Clasp will build for you. 2014-09-30T19:19:23Z ivan\ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T19:19:50Z theseb: stassats: you do realize that ubuntu is like debian with "smooth edges" and lots of hand holding? 2014-09-30T19:19:51Z wasamasa: drmeister_: do you already have someone who built it on arch? 2014-09-30T19:20:03Z stassats: theseb: i'm not a kid 2014-09-30T19:20:10Z wasamasa: drmeister_: if not, I'd volunteer, now that I have 6gb ram :P 2014-09-30T19:20:36Z theseb: stassats: yes but after the n-th time of installing linux don't you just want it Just Work(TM) ? 2014-09-30T19:20:53Z drmeister_: wasamasa: Someone mentioned it as one of their options but I haven't heard anyone install it on arch. 2014-09-30T19:20:59Z ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 2014-09-30T19:20:59Z Xach: theseb: Please keep such discussion to yourself. 2014-09-30T19:21:09Z drmeister_: I've been away from Linux distros for 8 years - I feel like Rip van Winkel. 2014-09-30T19:21:41Z drmeister_: As I said to someone yesterday: "In my day, we had Slackware and we installed it from floppy disks and we were happy." 2014-09-30T19:21:56Z drmeister_: "Of course, we all had gill slits back then as well". 2014-09-30T19:22:08Z Xach: there was no disk set for lisp in them days 2014-09-30T19:22:09Z H4ns: in my day, no tasteful person would have looked at linux. 2014-09-30T19:22:56Z wasamasa: drmeister_: ok, I'll switch over to #clasp then 2014-09-30T19:23:53Z stassats: drmeister_: clasp externals need to be _installed_? 2014-09-30T19:26:13Z drmeister_: stassats: externals-clasp is necessary for now because I use a very recent (1 week old) release of LLVM/Clang. 2014-09-30T19:26:25Z stassats: i mean, can i use it locally? 2014-09-30T19:26:44Z drmeister_: Oh - yeah, it's all installed locally. It doesn't interfere with anything on your system. 2014-09-30T19:26:57Z drmeister_: I put it all in $HOME/local/externals-clasp 2014-09-30T19:27:03Z drmeister_: Is that ok? 2014-09-30T19:27:20Z stassats: i wanted to use /tmp 2014-09-30T19:27:28Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T19:27:32Z drmeister_: Uhhh, hang on, must think. 2014-09-30T19:27:57Z normanrichards quit 2014-09-30T19:28:00Z stassats: i can symlink local to /tmp/local 2014-09-30T19:28:02Z drmeister_: Yeah - that should be just fine. It only needs it to build clasp - then you can nuke it. 2014-09-30T19:28:43Z pjb: minion: memo for contrapunctus: you may ask Lisp-comparative questions in #lisp-lab 2014-09-30T19:28:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell contrapunctus when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-30T19:29:10Z stassats: bah, cloning externals-clasp takes a while 2014-09-30T19:29:11Z wasamasa: pjb: he did /nick HisaoNakai recently and is still here 2014-09-30T19:29:21Z wasamasa: HisaoNakai: you may also bug us on ##lisp 2014-09-30T19:31:16Z husker quit (Quit: husker) 2014-09-30T19:33:06Z murftown quit (Quit: murftown) 2014-09-30T19:33:21Z pjb: HisaoNakai 2014-09-30T19:33:21Z pjb: <19:43:31> *** BitPuffin (~isak@host217-42-158-21.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined channel #lisp 2014-09-30T19:33:21Z pjb: <19:43:39> *** zacharias_ (~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias) has joined channel #lisp 2014-09-30T19:33:21Z pjb: <19:43:44> i ran https://github.com/marsam/opengenera no problems 2014-09-30T19:33:23Z pjb: <19:44:15> no problems until you tried to save the world, i guess? 2014-09-30T19:33:27Z pjb: <19:44:44> eudoxia: I tried an similar build script, but it borked trying to download ubuntu. 2014-09-30T19:33:30Z pjb: <19:45:49> tadni: i'd say if that bit could stop you, you've not tried very hard. and you 2014-09-30T19:33:36Z pjb: would probably be disappointed by the real issues that you'll run into later :) 2014-09-30T19:33:36Z pjb: <19:46:15> *** c107 (~c107@unaffiliated/c107) has joined channel #lisp 2014-09-30T19:33:39Z pjb: <19:46:30> H4ns: I was also going on 40 hours awake at the time, and irritated. 2014-09-30T19:33:42Z pjb: <19:46:35> *** zacharias (~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias) has quit: Ping timeout: 250 seconds 2014-09-30T19:33:45Z pjb: <19:47:17> *** MouldyOl1 (~mob@gateway/tor-sasl/mouldyoldbones) has joined channel #lisp 2014-09-30T19:33:48Z pjb: <19:47:58> *** knosys (~knosys@145.Red-83-45-53.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has quit: Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2 2014-09-30T19:33:51Z pjb: <19:48:51> *** sz0 (~sz0@94.55.197.185) has quit: Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… 2014-09-30T19:33:55Z pjb: <19:49:37> *** kobain (~kobain@unaffiliated/kobain) has quit: Ping timeout: 250 seconds 2014-09-30T19:33:58Z pjb: <19:50:24> *** kobain (~kobain@unaffiliated/kobain) has joined channel #lisp 2014-09-30T19:34:00Z dlowe: pjb: heh. oops? 2014-09-30T19:34:01Z tadni: WHAT IS HAPPENING? 2014-09-30T19:34:02Z pjb: <19:52:56> *** CatMtKing (~CatMtKing@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) has joined channel #lisp 2014-09-30T19:34:05Z pjb: <19:53:13> *** pt1 (~pt1@c-31-209-13-153.cust.bredband2.com) has quit: Remote host closed the connection 2014-09-30T19:34:06Z pjb: <19:53:20> eudoxia: Well, thank you, that seems like a much better script. 2014-09-30T19:34:09Z pjb: <19:53:25> Appears to be working now. 2014-09-30T19:34:10Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2014-09-30T19:34:11Z dlowe: pjb had a cut/paste error looks like 2014-09-30T19:34:12Z pjb: <19:53:56> i ran into some issues where deleting doesn't seem to work on the VNC client i 2014-09-30T19:34:15Z pjb [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (HALP) 2014-09-30T19:34:32Z Xach left #lisp 2014-09-30T19:35:50Z c107: pjb: Why you mention me? 2014-09-30T19:36:38Z p_l: c107: not on purpose 2014-09-30T19:36:50Z stassats: copy-paste-happy 2014-09-30T19:36:53Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T19:37:09Z p_l: something went wrong and pjb's client sent screen dump of #lisp to #lisp 2014-09-30T19:37:37Z ogamita: erc is bad like that. I'll have to patch it again. 2014-09-30T19:37:52Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T19:38:44Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:38:54Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-09-30T19:38:58Z ogamita: HisaoNakai: You can definitely do what you want in lisp (use ecl on Android, or MoCL both on Android and iOS). See also IRCAM works. ( http://ircam.fr ) 2014-09-30T19:39:37Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-30T19:39:46Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. 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I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-30T21:04:48Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:06:51Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:07:23Z Krystof: drmeister_: that's quite some publicity you're getting 2014-09-30T21:07:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:09:28Z jordonbiondo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-30T21:10:29Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:11:12Z drmeister_: Yeah, it's very life affirming, it's like coming out of my cave after three years and someone hands me a cupcake and a party hat. 2014-09-30T21:13:41Z drmeister_: I'm pretty sure I wasn't wasting my time or spinning off into obscurity. I have you folks to thank for a lot of that. I got lots of help and course correction. 2014-09-30T21:14:10Z PuercoPop: when doing 'tests' how to handle symbols that are not external to the package? Currently I'm using all over the place :: but I'm wondering is there is better way. 2014-09-30T21:14:50Z oleo is now known as Guest54179 2014-09-30T21:16:23Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-30T21:16:34Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:17:47Z Guest54179 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T21:19:20Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: You could IMPORT the symbols into your test package. Something like (do-symbols (symb "my-package") (import symb "my-test-package")) 2014-09-30T21:19:33Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T21:20:59Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-09-30T21:23:23Z theseb left #lisp 2014-09-30T21:24:14Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2014-09-30T21:24:37Z nonamae quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T21:25:25Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:26:04Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-30T21:26:46Z sz0 quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T21:29:14Z RenRenJuan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-30T21:32:13Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-09-30T21:33:38Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:33:57Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-30T21:34:52Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-09-30T21:38:43Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:38:52Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T21:41:38Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T21:41:59Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:43:19Z nell quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T21:44:04Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:44:15Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:45:00Z Colleen joined #lisp 2014-09-30T21:45:43Z stassats: drmeister_: well, it fails with that error and the only difference in my set up is that ~/local is a symlink to /tmp/local 2014-09-30T21:46:22Z Shinmera quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T21:47:18Z stassats: so, i updated some things with "boost" in it, and started compiling 2014-09-30T21:52:55Z drmeister_: Ah, that's an approach I hadn't anticipated - using symlinks. 2014-09-30T21:53:00Z drmeister_: Is Clasp compiling now? 2014-09-30T21:53:04Z stassats: it is 2014-09-30T21:53:15Z drmeister_: Well then, that warms my heart. 2014-09-30T21:53:23Z stassats: it warms my CPU 2014-09-30T21:53:29Z drmeister_ grins 2014-09-30T21:54:20Z stassats: when did you diverge from ECL? 2014-09-30T21:54:21Z drmeister_: Clasp - accelerating the heat death of the universe, one build at a time. 2014-09-30T21:54:33Z drmeister_: Day 1. 2014-09-30T21:54:39Z stassats: that would be? 2014-09-30T21:54:53Z drmeister_: About 1094 days ago. 2014-09-30T21:54:58Z stassats: well, there are some fixes needed to be ported over 2014-09-30T21:55:06Z stassats: then 2014-09-30T21:56:05Z drmeister_: About two years ago I ran "ediff" on the ECL source code and my source code. The only changes I make to the ECL provided source code is inserting feature switches like #+clasp (effectively). 2014-09-30T21:56:34Z drmeister_: stassats: I have to run to catch a train. I'll be back on soon. It's growing late for you is it not? 2014-09-30T21:56:41Z stassats: a bit 2014-09-30T21:56:50Z ogamita: The hunter instinct: catching trains. 2014-09-30T21:57:15Z drmeister_: I'll be here on #lisp and there are a bunch of us in #clasp on freenode. 2014-09-30T21:57:33Z drmeister_: I'm sure you will tell me how it goes. I hope well. 2014-09-30T21:57:48Z stassats: i might do some pull requests for the fixes i submitted to ECL, if i get it to compile 2014-09-30T21:57:51Z ogamita: Tell is if you catch a good one! :-) 2014-09-30T21:57:55Z ogamita: s/is/us/ 2014-09-30T21:58:34Z drmeister_: It's the Philadelphia Septa system - it's old but they are all good. 2014-09-30T21:59:50Z drmeister_: Must run -bbl 2014-09-30T21:59:59Z drmeister_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T22:00:58Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-30T22:08:19Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:08:24Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:10:22Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:11:31Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-09-30T22:11:47Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-30T22:14:22Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:16:51Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T22:18:06Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:19:54Z Nshag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:24:29Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T22:26:31Z Nshag joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:32:35Z drmeister_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T22:34:29Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T22:35:05Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:35:23Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:35:50Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:35:53Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:36:52Z R00tByte quit 2014-09-30T22:39:27Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:41:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T22:48:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:49:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:51:33Z kuzy000_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-30T22:54:12Z Hydan is now known as Hydan` 2014-09-30T22:56:13Z zlrth joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:58:14Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-09-30T22:59:17Z normanrichards quit 2014-09-30T23:00:02Z drmeiste_: stassats: How did it go? 2014-09-30T23:00:39Z drmeiste_: doh - missed him. 2014-09-30T23:00:42Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-09-30T23:00:42Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-30T23:01:36Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-09-30T23:07:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-30T23:08:08Z zlrth: hi quick question about asdf. I'm trying to make a hunchentoot website with a postgresql database behind it using postmodern. when I evaluate this: 2014-09-30T23:08:23Z zlrth: (asdf:defsystem #:example 2014-09-30T23:08:23Z zlrth: :serial t 2014-09-30T23:08:23Z zlrth: :description "Example cl-heroku application" 2014-09-30T23:08:23Z zlrth: :depends-on (#:hunchentoot 2014-09-30T23:08:26Z zlrth: #:cl-who 2014-09-30T23:08:29Z zlrth: #:postmodern 2014-09-30T23:08:32Z zlrth: #:simple-date) 2014-09-30T23:08:35Z zlrth: :components ((:file "package"))) 2014-09-30T23:09:15Z zlrth: I get Invalid relative pathname #P"package.lisp" for component "example" and "package" error 2014-09-30T23:10:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:10:04Z zlrth: my slime repl's directory has package.lisp in it. I put the absolute directory in, and it complained (of course) that it wanted a relative pathname 2014-09-30T23:10:38Z pillton: Is it in the same directory as the example system definition? 2014-09-30T23:10:41Z zlrth: yup 2014-09-30T23:10:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:10:52Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:12:44Z pillton: The Slime REPL directory is irrelevant. The contents of $DIR should be $DIR/example.asd and $DIR/package.lisp. 2014-09-30T23:13:53Z zlrth: ok. yeah, for me it's .....$DIR/those-files-and-some-others 2014-09-30T23:15:59Z MutSbeta quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-30T23:16:25Z pillton: Well, something else must be going on. I thought ASDF had problems with uninterned symbols as names. I might be wrong. 2014-09-30T23:16:36Z freaksken quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:17:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:17:37Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:18:34Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-30T23:20:53Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:21:10Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:23:31Z backupthrick joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:23:39Z marchdown joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:26:27Z |3b|: zlrth: you aren't supposed to 'evaluate' ASDF definitions, you should be loading them through asdf 2014-09-30T23:26:48Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-09-30T23:27:29Z csziacobus quit (Quit: csziacobus) 2014-09-30T23:27:40Z csziacobus joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:28:36Z zlrth: ok. so if I do (asdf::load-asd "...example.asd") which returns T, I'm good? 2014-09-30T23:28:39Z paul0` joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:29:05Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-30T23:29:12Z |3b| isn't familiar with that function, but the :: is a bad sign 2014-09-30T23:29:31Z zlrth: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-form.html#The-defsystem-form 2014-09-30T23:29:48Z zlrth: "we recommend that you load .asd files through function asdf::load-asd rather than through cl:load" 2014-09-30T23:30:53Z pillton: I would have a look at this: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html 2014-09-30T23:30:59Z pillton: Chapters 4 and 5. 2014-09-30T23:31:21Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-30T23:31:29Z abbe joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:31:29Z |3b|: ok, sounds like it might work, though still not the 'correct' way to do things 2014-09-30T23:31:39Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:32:00Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:32:07Z zlrth: thanks pillton and |3b|, (asdf:load-system :example) returns T 2014-09-30T23:32:39Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:33:47Z zlrth: I think I'm good to continue, and I'll read more of the manual. as I'm just beginning I'm not yet sure what "loading an asdf system" gives me. it doesn't load the dependencies, for example, so I know that's to come 2014-09-30T23:35:15Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:37:22Z |3b|: load-system should load dependencies 2014-09-30T23:41:59Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:42:30Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:43:21Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:43:49Z zlrth: ah yes. clearly I have a hazy understanding of asdf :) 2014-09-30T23:48:49Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-09-30T23:49:12Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:52:37Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:52:38Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:54:57Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:57:17Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-30T23:58:36Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2014-09-30T23:58:54Z ruste quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)