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I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-17T00:54:29Z pjb: minion: memo for stassats: (shiftf x y) is always equal to x! 2014-09-17T00:54:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-17T00:55:21Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T00:58:14Z pjb: minion: memo for Oberon4278: you can consider you're entering the realm of AI, when you leave the procedural or "prescriptive" programming. That is, when you architecture your program by collecting algorithms and having a mecanism to apply them that is not hardwired. Then your program will be able to adapt more easily to unexpected data. 2014-09-17T00:58:14Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Oberon4278 when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-17T01:02:29Z resttime: http://pastebin.com/LEvTii9s 2014-09-17T01:02:58Z resttime: Also added it to the ecl wikipages for future generations 2014-09-17T01:07:54Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:09:47Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:10:18Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T01:11:17Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:13:41Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T01:13:46Z pjb: minion: memo for zort: have a look at acl2 http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/ 2014-09-17T01:13:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell zort when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-17T01:15:34Z pjb: BitPuffin: The reader syntax #: doesn't make "unbound" symbols, but _uninterned_ symbols. You can very well bind a value to uninterned symbols: (let ((#1=#:uninterned 'value)) #1#) --> value 2014-09-17T01:16:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T01:20:19Z pjb: White_Flame: -> means evaluates to. :foo -> :foo, not 'foo !!! 2014-09-17T01:20:50Z pjb: White_Flame: there's definitely some kind of recursion here, because keywords are symbols that are bound to themselves, by definition. 2014-09-17T01:20:54Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:24:53Z TomRS` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:25:47Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:26:51Z TomRS quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T01:28:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T01:30:12Z Bazzie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T01:30:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:39:47Z FracV quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T01:40:17Z ft_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:41:39Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:41:56Z mncoder joined #lisp 2014-09-17T01:42:35Z White_Flame: pjb: Right. 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2014-09-17T03:59:18Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-09-17T04:00:47Z drmeister: I'm putting daily pressure on my IP office to let me release Clasp as open source. Times running short, I wanted it out long before now because I submitted an abstract to speak at the LLVM developers meeting in Oct 28-29. 2014-09-17T04:01:18Z drmeister: I don't want my abstract to be downgraded because there is no mention of Clasp on the web. 2014-09-17T04:02:01Z drmeister: I still have to write up an announcement for Clasp and describe it's features and invite people to download it and contribute to it. 2014-09-17T04:02:12Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T04:02:15Z drmeister: Has anyone announced anything like this before? 2014-09-17T04:02:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T04:02:48Z Bike: a lisp implementation? there was abcl 2014-09-17T04:03:03Z drmeister: I was thinking of announcing to www.reddit.com/r/programming, www.ycombinator.com, www.reddit.com/r/lisp, llvm-announce mailing list. www.reddit.com/r/common_lisp - any other suggestions? 2014-09-17T04:03:18Z axion: newsgroups 2014-09-17T04:03:35Z Bike: http://abcl-dev.blogspot.com/2011/10/abcl-100-released.html 2014-09-17T04:04:03Z tater-tots joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:04:54Z drmeister: Bike: That's pretty. I'll copy that 2014-09-17T04:05:02Z Viduinae joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:05:03Z White_Flame: out of curiosity, how long have you been working on Clasp? 2014-09-17T04:05:20Z drmeister: axion: Which newsgroups? You mean nntp? It's been a coons age since I was on there roasting scientology. 2014-09-17T04:05:44Z drmeister: White_Flame: It's embarrassing - three years I think. 2014-09-17T04:05:57Z axion: ha, comp.lang.lisp 2014-09-17T04:06:21Z beach joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:06:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-09-17T04:06:42Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2014-09-17T04:06:43Z White_Flame: there's also slashdot, if the beta hasn't destroyed the audience 2014-09-17T04:07:06Z drmeister: White_Flame: Right - slashdot. 2014-09-17T04:07:54Z brucem: drmeister: lobste.rs 2014-09-17T04:08:13Z drmeister: beach: I just asked the question: When I announce clasp - where should I do so? Currently I have: I was thinking of announcing to www.reddit.com/r/programming, www.ycombinator.com, www.reddit.com/r/lisp, llvm-announce mailing list. www.reddit.com/r/common_lisp, comp.lang.lisp, slashdot. 2014-09-17T04:08:30Z brucem: drmeister: that is, http://lobste.rs/ 2014-09-17T04:08:32Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T04:09:01Z beach: drmeister: I really have no idea. Sorry. 2014-09-17T04:09:20Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-17T04:09:29Z drmeister: Have you done any announcements for SBCL? 2014-09-17T04:09:34Z drmeister: SICL - sorry. 2014-09-17T04:09:37Z beach: No. 2014-09-17T04:09:37Z drmeister: SBCL on the brain. 2014-09-17T04:09:41Z vanila: good morningbeach 2014-09-17T04:10:25Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2014-09-17T04:10:42Z drmeister: brucem: What is lobste.rs? It looks interesting - will Emacs really move to Common Lisp? 2014-09-17T04:11:01Z pecg joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:11:06Z drmeister: That's a rhetorical question. 2014-09-17T04:11:23Z brucem: drmeister: just another news aggregator site ... but less crap than news.ycombinator.com 2014-09-17T04:11:55Z drmeister: And anyone with a login can post? 2014-09-17T04:12:07Z vanila: beach: I implemented syntactic environments and macro based on it http://paste.lisp.org/display/143746 :) 2014-09-17T04:12:24Z brucem: drmeister: yeah. I can invite you if you want. 2014-09-17T04:12:46Z drmeister: brucem: Oh yes please - it looks good. 2014-09-17T04:12:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:13:03Z beach: vanila: Congratulations! 2014-09-17T04:13:32Z vanila: so (LET ((LET ... will be handled correctly 2014-09-17T04:13:37Z vanila: thank you for the advice again 2014-09-17T04:13:49Z beach: Sure! No problem. 2014-09-17T04:14:21Z brucem: drmeister: see PM. 2014-09-17T04:14:38Z drmeister: I got my 85,000 lines of C++ chemistry code to compile within Clasp. Next up - get it working again (sigh). 2014-09-17T04:15:48Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:15:58Z beach: Good luck. 2014-09-17T04:16:16Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:16:36Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T04:16:55Z drmeister: Those 85,000 lines expose several packages and hundreds of functions and C++ classes/methods within Common Lisp. 2014-09-17T04:17:21Z vanila: but now I need to make the macro system support macros which expand into macro definitions - that is so that programmers can implement their own new macro systems 2014-09-17T04:17:50Z drmeister: For building molecules, assigning atom types, assigning force-field parameters, running geometry optimization, reading/writing chemical file formats etc. 2014-09-17T04:18:11Z vanila: drmeister, Wow that's a seriousl project!!! GOod luck 2014-09-17T04:18:43Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:19:47Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:20:17Z drmeister: vanila: Thanks - it's part of my magnum opus - it's the software that goes with some molecular hardware. 2014-09-17T04:21:17Z vanila: fascinating 2014-09-17T04:21:19Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: existence discontinued by computer burnout) 2014-09-17T04:21:31Z vanila: what is molecular hardware? is it simulating the atoms at quantum level? 2014-09-17T04:22:17Z beach: drmeister: I still think it would be an interesting project to try to write a translator for your C++ code to Common Lisp. 2014-09-17T04:22:22Z drmeister: Not quite quantum, that's too slow. Molecular mechanics level. The hardware is the chemistry we develop in my lab. 2014-09-17T04:23:41Z vanila: thats' really neat 2014-09-17T04:23:53Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T04:24:52Z drmeister: beach: I'm not sure that's a good idea. The one thing C++ is good at is laying out structures of unboxed values in memory. I use C++ as a domain specific language for structure layout. Common Lisp doesn't have a facility to do that. 2014-09-17T04:26:23Z beach: Hmm. 2014-09-17T04:27:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T04:27:21Z drmeister: I'd love to learn different and remember - I'm a guy who spent three years implementing a Common Lisp system that interoperates with C++ because I love Common Lisp and so that I don't have to do everything in C++. 2014-09-17T04:28:47Z beach: drmeister: I think there is a lot one can do with that time frame, including adding some CLOS MOP facility for storing unboxed values. 2014-09-17T04:29:02Z beach: drmeister: Why is it important that the values be unboxed? 2014-09-17T04:29:09Z beach: drmeister: Speed? Space? 2014-09-17T04:29:10Z White_Flame: I'm of the mindset that it'd be cool to port LLVM to CL, and have a fully-native CL runtime including allocators & GC 2014-09-17T04:29:32Z drmeister: Speed, space, works well with caches. 2014-09-17T04:30:04Z drmeister: White_Flame: Do you mean LLVM to CL or CL to LLVM? 2014-09-17T04:30:14Z White_Flame: LLVM to CL 2014-09-17T04:30:15Z beach: drmeister: It might not matter that much. 2014-09-17T04:30:46Z beach: White_Flame: Not exactly what you want, but Cleavir (part of the SICL project) is meant to do what LLVM does, but for Common Lisp. 2014-09-17T04:31:01Z White_Flame: off to google! 2014-09-17T04:31:02Z drmeister: White_Flame: I ported CL to LLVM 2014-09-17T04:31:13Z White_Flame: drmeister: yep, so I see. 2014-09-17T04:31:28Z White_Flame: which is a very welcome addition to the CL family 2014-09-17T04:31:52Z White_Flame: of implementations 2014-09-17T04:32:26Z drmeister: beach: It might not - if nothing else I have a lot of C++ code I want to drive from CL. 2014-09-17T04:33:18Z beach: drmeister: I don't have anything against what you did. I am just saying there is another thing to test for someone who has 3 years to spare. 2014-09-17T04:34:58Z drmeister: Understood - if I had a time machine I'd go back and strangle my friend who introduced me to Common Lisp in his crib. 2014-09-17T04:35:29Z beach: I would be more efficient to strangle the one who introduced you to C++. 2014-09-17T04:35:49Z drmeister: But on the other hand, a week doesn't go by without someone stumbling into #lisp asking for how they can expose their C++ library to Common Lisp. There's a need. 2014-09-17T04:36:00Z beach: Agreed. 2014-09-17T04:36:32Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2014-09-17T04:38:01Z drmeister: So, I saw a path and I took it. It was longer than I wanted it to be - much longer - but now I have something new. I'm dying to actually start using it. 2014-09-17T04:38:36Z White_Flame: any idea on what your CL performance characteristics are yet? 2014-09-17T04:38:43Z drmeister: I also learned more in the last three years about programming than I learned in the 25 years before. 2014-09-17T04:40:33Z drmeister: White_Flame: I have written a compiler that generates slow code - I'm not a good compiler writer. But I believe beach is a very good compiler writer and I hope to adapt Cleavir to Clasp. 2014-09-17T04:41:17Z White_Flame: at least you do get the LLVM optimizations 2014-09-17T04:42:06Z White_Flame: but yeah, optimizations based on type inference, condition handling, boxing, allocation, keyword params, etc, are wide open for new implementations 2014-09-17T04:42:32Z drmeister: Yes, and that has gotten me a long way. But I'm missing all of the Lisp language level optimizations and LLVM is a compiler writing library for C-type languages, not functional languages like Lisp (with first class functions and closures). 2014-09-17T04:43:05Z White_Flame: does LLVM support multiple entry points into a function? I've never gotten clarity on that 2014-09-17T04:43:08Z drmeister: Agreed. 2014-09-17T04:43:55Z drmeister: No. But you can wrap a function in multiple other functions - that's equivalent is it not? 2014-09-17T04:44:31Z White_Flame: I haven't used LLVM enough to tell 2014-09-17T04:44:51Z drmeister: There is one entry basic block per function. Each basic block has one entry point and one exit point. ergo no multiple entry points into a function. 2014-09-17T04:50:09Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:50:15Z kcj quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T04:50:15Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:55:21Z pjb: beach: the problem of translators, is that you'd want to do it at a semantic level. The translator would have to "understand" the source code to rewrite it in the new language, without taking into account the accidental specifics. For example, we would probably want int f(int x){return x==1?1:x*f(x-1);} to be translated to (defun f (x) (if (= x 1) 1 (* x (f (1- x))))), apart for the cases where we'd have to use (defun f_mod_2^32 (x) 2014-09-17T04:55:21Z pjb: (if (= x 1) 1 (logand #xffffffff (* x (f_mod_2^32 (1- x)))))). 2014-09-17T04:55:22Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:55:33Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T04:55:40Z pjb: So the question is how well we can extract the semantics of a C++ program. 2014-09-17T04:55:52Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T04:55:57Z pjb: Notice first that it looks like it is just not possible to do it, theorically, from the sources. 2014-09-17T04:56:03Z Bazzie joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:56:09Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-17T04:56:32Z beach: pjb: I am not suggesting a general translator from C++ to Common Lisp. Just for a particular code base. 2014-09-17T04:56:38Z pjb: Even for C. You need to process the headers, and basically, need the linked binary to really know the semantics. In the case of C++ it's worse, because of metaprogramming enabled by templates. (The same problem would occur if you wanted to translate lisp). 2014-09-17T04:56:39Z beach: pjb: Then one can "cheat". 2014-09-17T04:56:41Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T04:56:53Z pjb: Ah, for a given code base, you can take short cuts indeed. 2014-09-17T04:57:27Z beach: Otherwise, I would not even give it any thought. 2014-09-17T04:57:42Z pjb: But the interesting academic subject is this one of getting the semantics of a program in a given language, in general. 2014-09-17T04:57:49Z White_Flame: or, mask everything and ignore speed :-P 2014-09-17T04:58:01Z pjb: White_Flame: it's not a question of speed. 2014-09-17T04:58:07Z White_Flame: including code cache pressure 2014-09-17T04:58:49Z beach: pjb: I think 85k lines of C++ could be translated to Common Lisp by a special-purpose translator (written in Common Lisp) if one had around 3 years to write the translator. 2014-09-17T04:58:50Z pjb: the logand version will probably compile to faster code. For example, since it will at most produce 13 different results, you can easily replace the recursion by a case. 2014-09-17T04:58:52Z White_Flame: right, any imported C++ would assume fixed-size types declared in C++ would retain those masking semantics, under that thinking 2014-09-17T04:59:02Z pjb: beach: :-) 2014-09-17T05:00:04Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T05:01:22Z drmeister: Translating programming languages has always fascinated me. Despite computer languages being so precise it is a hard problem to translate to efficient code. 2014-09-17T05:01:44Z White_Flame: I've done a ton of armchari work on that realm as well, particularly in reverse engineering 2014-09-17T05:02:01Z White_Flame: it all falls back to defining the various concepts that exist in programming, which all tends to fall back on human intent 2014-09-17T05:04:43Z izirku quit 2014-09-17T05:04:50Z pjb: There's a big difference between programming concepts and human intent. 2014-09-17T05:05:16Z pjb: (setq a (+ b c)) ; it this an addition or a multiplication? 2014-09-17T05:05:23Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:05:28Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T05:05:33Z pjb: What if (let ((b (log x)) (c (log y)) a) (setq a (+ b c))) ? 2014-09-17T05:05:58Z drmeister: Must sleep - 'night all. 2014-09-17T05:07:07Z White_Flame: right, you cannot understand "why" a programming language device is invoked somewhere without some attempt to grasp the human intent 2014-09-17T05:07:42Z White_Flame: even as in what part of what algorithm or process is being carried out 2014-09-17T05:08:26Z White_Flame: consider tracing back a bunch of simple math into "this is a line drawing algorithm onto a particular layout of bitmap" 2014-09-17T05:08:34Z pjb: White_Flame: indeed. THat's the problem. 2014-09-17T05:10:07Z pjb: When you program in lisp you can (more easily than in other program), mostly only express the intent, by using sexps (as high level programming constructs). But it's all too easy to fall down to specific implementation details (list vs. vectors, etc). 2014-09-17T05:10:56Z White_Flame: and the organized use of macros is eliminated from the generated structure 2014-09-17T05:12:40Z pjb: Perhaps we could only consider the source text, without using the specific language semantics. After all, most human programmers don't even know or understand their language semantics. See all the C/C++ undefined behavior they use. 2014-09-17T05:13:13Z pjb: So, perhaps we could still implement a useful AI system that would just read the source text without using too detailed specific language semantics. 2014-09-17T05:13:18Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:13:36Z pjb: (of course, it could be prone to being misled by source code identifier names and comments as we'd be). 2014-09-17T05:13:41Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:15:14Z White_Flame: if you carry that line of thought through, you'll notice that the input language is largely irrelevant, so if it had resonable capability, it wouldn't matter if the input was C++ source code, or binary dumps with well-known asm entry points 2014-09-17T05:16:01Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T05:19:29Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:21:33Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:23:02Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:23:02Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T05:23:02Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:24:02Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T05:25:29Z tater-tots quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T05:26:03Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-09-17T05:26:14Z pjb: White_Flame: indeed. 2014-09-17T05:26:36Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:29:09Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T05:30:08Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:30:10Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:30:40Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:33:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:34:02Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T05:34:14Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-09-17T05:36:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:36:19Z mncoder quit (Quit: mncoder) 2014-09-17T05:36:41Z beach: Turns out, there are around 85k minutes in a year :) 2014-09-17T05:37:31Z beach: Minutes of work, that is. 2014-09-17T05:38:41Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:39:49Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:40:00Z mr-foobar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T05:40:25Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:40:42Z resttime left #lisp 2014-09-17T05:41:36Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:43:05Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:43:06Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:43:54Z sdemarre quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-17T05:45:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:47:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T05:48:53Z vanila quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T05:49:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:50:07Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T05:54:40Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T05:56:13Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:58:19Z beach left #lisp 2014-09-17T05:58:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-09-17T05:59:46Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T06:00:00Z easye joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:00:42Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:06:14Z work_op joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:06:34Z work_op: omg what do u guys think about the thread about elisp evolving into CL? 2014-09-17T06:08:10Z H4ns: work_op: "the thread"? don't suppose that this channel is something of a chat extension to some forum that you visit. 2014-09-17T06:08:12Z easye: As Gandi replied when asked what he thought of Western civilization "It would be a nice idea." 2014-09-17T06:08:24Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:08:48Z work_op: "some thread" https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-09/msg00434.html 2014-09-17T06:08:59Z work_op: yeah what do those gnu nerds know anyways? 2014-09-17T06:09:05Z work_op: u must be the real pro around here 2014-09-17T06:13:26Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:14:30Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:15:45Z Viduinae quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:16:04Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-17T06:16:23Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:17:05Z White_Flame: work_op: no, that'd be the pro mailing list :) 2014-09-17T06:17:27Z easye: work_op: I'm not trying to be snooty about Emacs transitioning to Common Lisp. I just really doubt that it would ever happen. 2014-09-17T06:18:08Z work_op: i was directing that venom towards hans, sorry for the confusion easye 2014-09-17T06:18:16Z work_op: <3 2014-09-17T06:18:29Z easye: SBCL would be the natural choice for an existing CL implementation to use, but the licensing is fundamentally incompatible. 2014-09-17T06:19:20Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:20:11Z easye: Using one of the dormant GNU CL implementations might be doable, but they would have to be successfully revived. 2014-09-17T06:20:21Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:20:30Z H4ns: clisp is in pretty good shape i'd say 2014-09-17T06:20:58Z zRecursive: CLISP is too slow 2014-09-17T06:21:08Z work_op: ^ 2014-09-17T06:21:11Z H4ns: zRecursive: why do you think so? 2014-09-17T06:21:57Z zRecursive: H4ns: CLISP is using byte code compared with SBCL's native code ... 2014-09-17T06:22:05Z H4ns: zRecursive: "so?" 2014-09-17T06:22:12Z Shinmera: Where the benchmarks at 2014-09-17T06:22:37Z H4ns: folks, just because clisp is slower than sbcl by nature does not make it "too slow" for anything 2014-09-17T06:22:58Z work_op: says the guy who thinks lists.gnu is "some forum" 2014-09-17T06:23:16Z H4ns: work_op: how would i be able to guess what you're coming from? 2014-09-17T06:23:29Z zRecursive: Maybe, another big problem is that CLISP seems not to be maintained now ? 2014-09-17T06:23:48Z H4ns: zRecursive: if it'd be adopted by emacs, it'd have maintainers 2014-09-17T06:23:51Z work_op: rms doesnt even like common lisp 2014-09-17T06:24:09Z H4ns: work_op: so? 2014-09-17T06:24:19Z easye: Looking past the practical difficulties, if such a move would happen, I wonder how much the life of CL developers would change? 2014-09-17T06:24:43Z Shinmera: easye: However much you let it 2014-09-17T06:24:45Z work_op: not that much, slime integration is amazing already 2014-09-17T06:24:47Z H4ns: easye: i'd think that support for common lisp in emacs would improve if cl was its native language. 2014-09-17T06:24:51Z work_op: how much better can it really get 2014-09-17T06:25:12Z easye: I think the majority of us use Emacs/SLIME to use CL implementations in the first place. There would now be a "privileged" CL implementation. 2014-09-17T06:25:15Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:25:57Z H4ns: easye: i'm more thinking from the side of what emacs does to support editing common lisp better. it is not bad, but it could be better (by supporting reader macros, for example) 2014-09-17T06:26:09Z easye: H4ns: Yeah, Semantic might actually get a Lisp parser... 2014-09-17T06:26:58Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-09-17T06:27:14Z easye: H4ns: True. Actually since "CL is CL" across implementations, there might not be much of a "privilege". 2014-09-17T06:28:54Z zRecursive: 1) CL should be faster than EL 2) multi-thread will cause fewer "emacs frozing" ... 2014-09-17T06:33:12Z thierrygar quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:33:59Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:34:05Z pillton: I have often wanted a Emacs buffer I could draw too. 2014-09-17T06:34:14Z peterhil` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:34:17Z pillton: or show progress bars. 2014-09-17T06:34:33Z pillton: or play an animation. 2014-09-17T06:34:50Z H4ns: i often wanted emacs to deal with large files that are not line oriented better 2014-09-17T06:35:22Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:35:44Z Shinmera: I remember it taking five actual minutes to open a large file without line breaks anywhere. :( 2014-09-17T06:35:57Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-17T06:36:45Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T06:48:30Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:51:42Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:51:52Z resttime: it's actually working 2014-09-17T06:51:58Z resttime: i feel like i want to cry (; 2014-09-17T06:51:59Z resttime: http://i.imgur.com/chqH7x0.png 2014-09-17T06:52:18Z H4ns: resttime: congratulations :) 2014-09-17T06:52:23Z stassats: mow? 2014-09-17T06:52:23Z minion: stassats, memo from pjb: (shift x y) is always equal to x! 2014-09-17T06:52:23Z minion: stassats, memo from pjb: (shiftf x y) is always equal to x! 2014-09-17T06:52:27Z resttime: albeit the x64 plugin crashes and purns 2014-09-17T06:52:43Z resttime: oops typo 2014-09-17T06:53:17Z stassats: hmm, right 2014-09-17T06:53:23Z lemoinem joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:53:23Z resttime: H4ns, thanks feels so awesome 2014-09-17T06:53:37Z resttime: cl_object hi = ecl_call("(string :Hello)"); 2014-09-17T06:53:37Z resttime: hexchat_print(ph, hi->string.self); 2014-09-17T06:54:06Z resttime: next thing is probably to make it create a swank server to connect via emacs 2014-09-17T06:58:29Z Elench joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:58:34Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T06:59:43Z thierrygar joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:00:04Z jegaxd26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T07:00:09Z OldK joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:00:20Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:01:24Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-09-17T07:02:12Z Elench quit (Killed (wilhelm.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-09-17T07:02:12Z Elench` is now known as Elench 2014-09-17T07:02:40Z Elench quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T07:03:15Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T07:03:17Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:03:24Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T07:03:26Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:03:42Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:05:06Z Elench` is now known as Elench 2014-09-17T07:05:23Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:11:06Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-09-17T07:11:20Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:12:15Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:14:00Z angavrilov_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:14:05Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:15:16Z Elench is now known as Guest74558 2014-09-17T07:15:16Z Guest74558 quit (Killed (morgan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-09-17T07:15:16Z Elench` is now known as Elench 2014-09-17T07:15:22Z H4ns: i think i want to add iolib as a possible network layer to hunchentoot so that i can get ipv6 support. any thoughts? 2014-09-17T07:15:23Z angavrilov_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:15:45Z stassats: as long as it is optional 2014-09-17T07:15:54Z H4ns: of course 2014-09-17T07:15:58Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:17:30Z Viduinae joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:17:41Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:18:47Z resttime: repo - https://github.com/resttime/hexchat-ecl 2014-09-17T07:21:04Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:23:31Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-09-17T07:24:01Z H4ns: so much for that idea. (ql:quickload :iolib) does not even work 2014-09-17T07:24:49Z angavrilov_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:25:10Z Cymew: Really? That used to work. 2014-09-17T07:25:12Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:25:35Z H4ns: for some reason, quicklisp does not load the dependencies. and apparently, i need som extra libraries that i don't have 2014-09-17T07:25:42Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:25:42Z H4ns: (lfp.h missing) 2014-09-17T07:26:08Z H4ns: maybe it would be better to add ipv6 support to usocket after all 2014-09-17T07:26:09Z angavrilov_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:26:11Z Cymew: Yeah, I see that now. Didn't happen last time I did it 2014-09-17T07:26:11Z Shinmera: Hm 2014-09-17T07:26:15Z Shinmera: I'm getting the same error. 2014-09-17T07:26:53Z H4ns: this is because libfixposix needs to be available for iolib 2014-09-17T07:26:56Z andschwa_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:27:08Z Shinmera: Ahh, right, I remember now. 2014-09-17T07:27:29Z H4ns: does sb-sockets have ipv6 support? 2014-09-17T07:28:45Z Shinmera quit (Quit: bbl) 2014-09-17T07:29:51Z H4ns: hm. or maybe replace usocket on sbcl with sb-socket 2014-09-17T07:30:52Z andschwa_ quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T07:30:52Z andschwa_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:32:28Z stassats: sb-bsd-sockets, rather 2014-09-17T07:32:36Z stassats: and ecl uses the same interface 2014-09-17T07:32:51Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:33:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:33:15Z andschwa quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-17T07:33:15Z andschwa_ is now known as andschwa 2014-09-17T07:33:44Z andschwa_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:34:08Z H4ns: hm. i'd hate to come up with a new compatibility layer for Hunchentoot and Drakma, but not having IPv6 support is something that I don't want to accept much longer 2014-09-17T07:34:09Z angavrilov_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:34:57Z H4ns: so maybe there will be an esocket compatibility layer that uses sb-bsd-sockets underneath and may be adapted to ccl. 2014-09-17T07:35:08Z H4ns: what a terrible plan. terrible, but workable. 2014-09-17T07:35:36Z stassats: wait, does sb-bsd-sockets support ipv6? 2014-09-17T07:35:48Z stassats: i'm not sure, really 2014-09-17T07:35:49Z H4ns: stassats: that was my initial question. 2014-09-17T07:35:54Z H4ns: i'll find out. 2014-09-17T07:37:11Z andschwa_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T07:37:55Z cz3141 quit (Quit: cz3141 has no reason) 2014-09-17T07:38:40Z H4ns: ah, no. it does not. 2014-09-17T07:39:04Z H4ns: so, first thing would be to make sb-bsd-sockets support ipv6 2014-09-17T07:39:20Z H4ns: it is embarrassing. 2014-09-17T07:39:34Z pjb: clisp has a JIT compiler. Granted it's not intensively exercised yet, but it could be as fast as any JVM. 2014-09-17T07:39:41Z fridim__ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:39:59Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:40:06Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-17T07:40:50Z White_Flame: JVMs are pretty darned fast nowadays 2014-09-17T07:40:58Z H4ns: so? 2014-09-17T07:41:34Z White_Flame: so I wouldn't expect a not-very-mature JIT to match JVM speeds 2014-09-17T07:41:52Z pjb: ccl is LGPL; it could be a good base for emacs. 2014-09-17T07:42:05Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:42:15Z andschwa quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-09-17T07:42:25Z White_Flame: also, abrupt topic resurrection 2014-09-17T07:42:34Z andschwa joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:42:47Z H4ns: no ipv6 support in clozure cl either. 2014-09-17T07:42:52Z pjb: But I see no fundamental reason why emacs couldn't target conforming CL (plus portability libraries for FFI, termios, X11, etc), so that you could run it in any CL implementation. 2014-09-17T07:43:03Z H4ns: dang 2014-09-17T07:43:15Z pjb: H4ns: isn't that a question for iolib instead? 2014-09-17T07:43:23Z `JRG joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:43:38Z andschwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T07:44:00Z andschwa joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:46:33Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T07:48:29Z Cymew: iolib can not really support IPv6 is none of the implementations it's wrapping do. Or isn't that how iolib works? 2014-09-17T07:48:44Z Cymew: s/is none/if none/ 2014-09-17T07:48:45Z H4ns: iolib uses posix directly. 2014-09-17T07:48:59Z Cymew: Ah, nice. 2014-09-17T07:49:16Z stassats: consequently, there are some problems with windows 2014-09-17T07:49:19Z Cymew: I have not looked that closely at it. Sounds like I should. 2014-09-17T07:49:35Z Cymew: stassats: Isn't there always... 2014-09-17T07:49:57Z resttime: always problems with windows :( 2014-09-17T07:50:10Z H4ns: i'm more put off by the fact that iolib resorts to a library written in c to paper over differences in posix implementations. 2014-09-17T07:50:39Z Cymew: Not very elegant, no. 2014-09-17T07:51:05Z stassats: what else could it do? 2014-09-17T07:51:28Z stassats: because of the preprocessor, some things are hard to wrap directly 2014-09-17T07:51:29Z H4ns: stassats: use lisp code to cover the different behavior? 2014-09-17T07:52:00Z H4ns: stassats: understood. the consequence is that iolib is painful to use, sadly. 2014-09-17T07:52:00Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T07:52:15Z stassats: well, building libfixposix is trivial 2014-09-17T07:52:53Z H4ns: stassats: i understand - it needs to be installed on each target system, though. 2014-09-17T07:52:58Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:53:03Z H4ns: stassats: and that is where it starts to bother me. 2014-09-17T07:53:32Z H4ns: stassats: not that much when i write an application, but definitely when writing a library that should be installable with quicklisp 2014-09-17T07:53:54Z stassats: many people already use iolib 2014-09-17T07:54:08Z H4ns: so? 2014-09-17T07:54:16Z Cymew: Hmm. I can't get yum to tell me which package to install to get that header file. 2014-09-17T07:54:36Z stassats: Cymew: you need to compile libfixposix 2014-09-17T07:54:52Z H4ns: Cymew: yum can't help, and as there are no docs, all i can do is guess that you need to clone the libfixposix github repo and build that 2014-09-17T07:54:56Z stassats: H4ns: so, if they want to use drakma with iolib, they will expect those things 2014-09-17T07:55:25Z H4ns: stassats: i don't want "drakma with iolib", i want "drakma with ipv6". 2014-09-17T07:56:03Z Cymew: It looks that bad, yeah. If it's not even packaged, then it's really not easy to get it going. Sure, I can compile things, but it's not really quickloadable... 2014-09-17T07:56:18Z stassats: H4ns: but that's basically your only option 2014-09-17T07:56:45Z H4ns: stassats: right now, correct. an improvement of the situation would be to add ipv6 support to sbcl and ccl 2014-09-17T07:56:58Z H4ns: stassats: which does not seem like a terrible amount of effort to me. 2014-09-17T07:57:18Z stassats: if i were using ipv6, i would have added it to sbcl 2014-09-17T07:57:41Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:58:04Z H4ns: i guess that is what i'll try to do 2014-09-17T07:58:18Z |3b| wonders if iolib backend for usocket would be easier than porting drakma and hunchentoot to iolib 2014-09-17T07:58:48Z H4ns: |3b|: that would solve the libposix issue exactly how? 2014-09-17T07:58:58Z |3b| wouldn't mind having ability to use hunchentoot with iolib, particularly with the new socket-detach stuff, since clws uses iolib 2014-09-17T07:59:09Z |3b|: H4ns: it wouldn't :( 2014-09-17T07:59:28Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T07:59:30Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:00:03Z H4ns: ok, so someone already did some of the work, now it only needs to make it into sbcl: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-devel/thread/4E820C9E-33E2-43B2-BA2F-566F812AB154@gmail.com/ 2014-09-17T08:01:47Z H4ns: the discussion in that thread somehow implies that ipv6 support wont get into sbcl because sb-bsd-sockets will be replaced by iolib anyway 2014-09-17T08:02:00Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T08:02:02Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:02:04Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:02:20Z stassats: i don't think that's going to be the case 2014-09-17T08:03:06Z Cymew: eh? 2014-09-17T08:03:06Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:03:07Z H4ns: stassats: would you mentor an ipv6 patch that is a bit more complete? 2014-09-17T08:03:28Z stassats: sure 2014-09-17T08:03:35Z H4ns: ok, thanks. i got one job 2014-09-17T08:03:40Z H4ns: \o/ 2014-09-17T08:04:34Z Krystof: \o/ indeed 2014-09-17T08:04:47Z Cymew: Everyone is happy! :) 2014-09-17T08:07:46Z easye needs to get iolib working with ABCL now that CFFI workz 2014-09-17T08:08:43Z pjb: H4ns: using a C library to provide a consistent interface is the right way to do it IMO, and the more so in the case of C because a lot of API use C macros (and other compilation time tricks such as sizeof). 2014-09-17T08:09:22Z pjb: H4ns: in general, it is better to use modules to provide a common API to various targets, than eg. use #+/#- or #ifdef/#ifndef. 2014-09-17T08:09:38Z pjb: at least, this defines a clear interface to the dependencies. 2014-09-17T08:09:48Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:11:26Z pjb: H4ns: the alternative would be to implement POSIX in Common Lisp itself, ie. to target the syscalls of the various kernels (*BSD, *Linux, *Mach, and *Windows). * denoting the various variants and versions. 2014-09-17T08:11:39Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:12:14Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:13:46Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:16:35Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:16:45Z mr-foobar quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:21:56Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:22:03Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:22:50Z Cymew: Now you've got two jobs 2014-09-17T08:24:15Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:25:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:26:24Z MouldyOldBones quit (Quit: MouldyOldBones) 2014-09-17T08:26:53Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:29:58Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:32:29Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:41:52Z Viduinae quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:46:35Z farhaven joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:46:45Z phao joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:51:54Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:53:32Z stassats quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T08:53:46Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:54:02Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T08:54:03Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:55:02Z thepreacher joined #lisp 2014-09-17T08:55:51Z thepreacher quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T08:57:41Z H4ns: does anyone know an explanation how one rebuilds and installs a single sbcl contrib without going through a full sbcl recompile_ 2014-09-17T08:57:47Z H4ns: ? 2014-09-17T08:58:00Z stassats`: sh ./make-target-contribs.sh 2014-09-17T08:58:15Z H4ns: that builds and tests all of them 2014-09-17T08:58:18Z stassats`: that will rebuild all the contribs, you can rebuild one, but before compiling it removes all the previous results 2014-09-17T08:58:47Z stassats`: sh ./make-target-contribs.sh sb-bsd-sockets will build just a single contrib, but with the above caveat 2014-09-17T08:58:58Z stassats`: but you can just remove the cleaning line 2014-09-17T08:59:16Z H4ns: ah, ok. thanks! that'll do 2014-09-17T08:59:34Z stassats`: wait, there's $DONT_CLEAN_SBCL_CONTRIB 2014-09-17T08:59:42Z H4ns: just saw that, too :) 2014-09-17T09:02:32Z acieroid` is now known as acieroid 2014-09-17T09:05:30Z H4ns: i've just received an email with a more complete set of ipv6 patches :) 2014-09-17T09:06:46Z Krystof: it's the magic of the Internet 2014-09-17T09:06:50Z Krystof: did you receive it over ipv6? 2014-09-17T09:07:00Z H4ns: in fact, i did 2014-09-17T09:07:09Z stassats`: for once the open source fairies do something 2014-09-17T09:07:16Z macdice` is now known as macdice 2014-09-17T09:07:45Z Krystof: H4ns: it is the future! 2014-09-17T09:08:09Z Krystof: meanwhile, here I am looking at 20-year-old code :-( 2014-09-17T09:08:09Z H4ns: yeah. but quite frankly, it has been the future for 15 years or so. 2014-09-17T09:08:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T09:08:44Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:09:05Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:09:26Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:11:15Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:13:00Z yauz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T09:13:07Z yauz joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:13:37Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T09:14:14Z splittist_: Krystof: way back then? I bet people were still using windows and mouse interfaces on intel boxes, documenting things with Tex and derivatives, and sending things over ethernet. Losers! 2014-09-17T09:14:45Z stassats`: that sounds like today 2014-09-17T09:16:28Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: you mentioned yum ? 2014-09-17T09:17:30Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: yes. was i wrong? i was guessing from my negative homebrew experience 2014-09-17T09:17:40Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: in any case, external library is a no-go for me. 2014-09-17T09:17:57Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:18:24Z stassats`: now i know why ipv6 hasn't been adopted more widely: sbcl doesn't support it 2014-09-17T09:20:59Z splittist_: stassats`: but today everyone carries around superoptimized interpreters for an algolised scheme dialect that has completely replaced the need for the BLINK html tag. Progress! 2014-09-17T09:21:27Z stassats`: i can run sbcl on my phone too 2014-09-17T09:22:43Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:22:50Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: using a C library is a necessity 2014-09-17T09:23:21Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: i'm looking for implementation support now. that way, no extra library will be needed for ipv6 support. 2014-09-17T09:25:55Z yakccd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:27:22Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T09:27:39Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:27:48Z yakccd quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T09:35:40Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:36:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:38:52Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-09-17T09:49:31Z clapautius left #lisp 2014-09-17T09:51:00Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:52:01Z dkcl quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-17T09:52:03Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-09-17T09:52:07Z dkcl is now known as dandersen 2014-09-17T09:52:47Z stassats` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-17T09:57:16Z dickle joined #lisp 2014-09-17T09:57:27Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T09:57:38Z Svetlana quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T09:59:42Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:03:52Z bit`1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:07:20Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:09:33Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:09:37Z atgreen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T10:10:27Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:13:52Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:17:30Z bit` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:17:44Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-09-17T10:19:34Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T10:19:57Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:21:54Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:23:30Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:28:27Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:29:53Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:30:04Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:30:54Z alexherbo2 is now known as Alex`` 2014-09-17T10:31:09Z Alex`` is now known as `Alex` 2014-09-17T10:31:13Z `Alex` is now known as Alex`` 2014-09-17T10:39:51Z kuzy000_ quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.) 2014-09-17T10:41:08Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:41:08Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:41:45Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T10:44:47Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:47:29Z Elench quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:48:19Z schjetne quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-09-17T10:49:35Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:49:42Z dickle is now known as dkcl 2014-09-17T10:50:01Z schjetne joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:51:00Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:53:11Z danielbraun quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T10:53:23Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T10:56:33Z Cymew: It was a bit fiddly to build libfixposix rpms, but how convenient to just choose a restart and ASDF plowed on and built iolib afterward 2014-09-17T10:56:49Z Elench joined #lisp 2014-09-17T10:57:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:00:07Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:00:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T11:01:42Z arpunk joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:05:30Z bit` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:07:46Z Grue` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T11:09:07Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:09:33Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:14:41Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:14:50Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:15:01Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:15:36Z Elench is now known as Guest71541 2014-09-17T11:15:37Z Guest71541 quit (Killed (tepper.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-09-17T11:15:37Z Elench` is now known as Elench 2014-09-17T11:18:32Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:18:43Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:20:54Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:22:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:27:20Z janmuffino joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:29:07Z pspace quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-09-17T11:29:39Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:30:45Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:31:04Z schjetne quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T11:31:04Z schjetne joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:34:36Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:39:59Z thepreacher joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:46:12Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-09-17T11:46:46Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:48:29Z manfoo7` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T11:48:47Z manfoo7` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:51:29Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: to build what ? 2014-09-17T11:51:42Z pspace joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:51:42Z pspace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T11:51:51Z pjb` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:52:05Z Cymew: fe[nl]ix: Referred to earlier conversation about a C lib iolib depended on 2014-09-17T11:52:27Z fe[nl]ix: you don't need to build it yourself 2014-09-17T11:53:25Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: what distro are you using ? 2014-09-17T11:53:53Z Cymew: fedora 2014-09-17T11:53:58Z fe[nl]ix: 20 ? 2014-09-17T11:54:02Z Cymew: yeah 2014-09-17T11:54:10Z Cymew: It's not in any repos I have 2014-09-17T11:54:11Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:54:22Z Cymew: Have you found it in a repo? 2014-09-17T11:54:34Z fe[nl]ix: I maintain one 2014-09-17T11:54:41Z fe[nl]ix: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/sionescu/Fedora_20/ 2014-09-17T11:54:53Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:54:56Z Cymew: Look at that 2014-09-17T11:55:42Z dandersen is now known as R 2014-09-17T11:55:47Z R is now known as dkcl 2014-09-17T11:55:55Z Cymew: Just to provide that package? Interesting. 2014-09-17T11:56:38Z dkcl: Haha 2014-09-17T11:57:21Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T11:57:27Z effy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:57:27Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: people don't want to compile it themselves 2014-09-17T11:57:32Z fe[nl]ix: which is pretty fair 2014-09-17T11:58:02Z Cymew: Makes sense. 2014-09-17T11:58:03Z fe[nl]ix: but some still don't want to use IOlib 2014-09-17T11:58:44Z Cymew: I looked at it years ago when it solved an issue I had then. Then it looked really good 2014-09-17T11:58:51Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:58:52Z flip214 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:58:52Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T11:58:52Z flip214 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T11:59:43Z Cymew: It would be nice if all dependencies were available in repos everyone can be counted on to have, though. Really cool you have one available, though! 2014-09-17T12:00:26Z effy_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T12:00:26Z Cymew remembers suddenly the advice to kill your darlings. 2014-09-17T12:00:42Z dkcl: fe[nl]ix: I'm gonna go ahead and give it a try 2014-09-17T12:00:42Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T12:01:43Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: OBS allows me to make repositories for RHEL/Centos/Fedora/SL/SLES/openSUSE using just one .spec file 2014-09-17T12:01:51Z Cymew: I think there was something about usocket that was problematic, but I don't remember what it was that made me go for IOlib instead. 2014-09-17T12:02:20Z fe[nl]ix: OTOH, the work required to get this single package in all those distros officially would be crazy 2014-09-17T12:02:31Z Cymew: probably, yes. 2014-09-17T12:03:25Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T12:05:00Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T12:05:05Z ans quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-09-17T12:05:09Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew, dkcl: the full list is at 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2014-09-17T13:55:40Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2014-09-17T13:56:06Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-09-17T13:58:22Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T13:59:04Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:00:42Z Cymew: Now I've found a pretty good reason why you'd not want to use IOlib. In order to build the documentation you need a patched texinfo, which is not included. 2014-09-17T14:00:46Z chitofan joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:01:16Z eudoxia: why do people even use texinfo today 2014-09-17T14:01:23Z eudoxia: just use Sphinx 2014-09-17T14:01:23Z Cymew: Beats me 2014-09-17T14:01:34Z stassats: just don't document things 2014-09-17T14:01:38Z Cymew: >( 2014-09-17T14:01:54Z eudoxia: even i gave in instead of writing *custom incomplete CL documentation system with Sexp markup* 2014-09-17T14:01:54Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:03:27Z LiamH: I am struggling to use Sphinx with CLDomain. 2014-09-17T14:03:40Z Cymew: I'd say at least provide a bloody text file 2014-09-17T14:03:46Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-09-17T14:03:50Z Cymew: how hard can it be? 2014-09-17T14:05:22Z Cymew: I will say though that a directory with examples and a tutorial is far better than most do. Kudos for that. 2014-09-17T14:05:34Z posterdati300 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:06:00Z dlowe: using texinfo doesn't bother me. Using patched texinfo is kind of insane, though 2014-09-17T14:06:11Z Cymew: That's my main beef 2014-09-17T14:06:18Z splittist_: Providing attractively formatted and comprehensively interlinked documentation is a problem solved so many times that one is lead to suspect that it is not, in fact, the barrier to good documentation existing... 2014-09-17T14:06:26Z eudoxia: just a `docs` folder with a NOTES.md, i'd conform with that 2014-09-17T14:06:53Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:07:14Z Cymew: I don't hate texinfo, even though I would not use it for my own project 2014-09-17T14:09:33Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:14:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:15:13Z eudoxia: the barrier to good documentation is people thinking "i don't need to document because people think i'm so great they'll read my awesome source code" 2014-09-17T14:15:18Z eudoxia: "also M-." 2014-09-17T14:15:48Z stassats: for me it's "nobody will use my code" 2014-09-17T14:16:31Z oGMo: i try and document as part of the whole project cycle just to be in the habit 2014-09-17T14:16:41Z oGMo: imo the real problem is the tools suck 2014-09-17T14:16:55Z dlowe: If you're building a library, it's probably a great idea to write the documentation *first* 2014-09-17T14:16:56Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:16:59Z oGMo: no 2014-09-17T14:16:59Z dlowe: there's your design doc 2014-09-17T14:17:00Z oGMo: it's not 2014-09-17T14:17:04Z dlowe: yes. it is. 2014-09-17T14:17:12Z dlowe: you are wrong. 2014-09-17T14:17:14Z oGMo: hah 2014-09-17T14:17:19Z oGMo: you go ahead and do that 2014-09-17T14:17:27Z dlowe: I went ahead and did that. It was awesome. 2014-09-17T14:17:34Z oGMo: on what? 2014-09-17T14:17:39Z dlowe: local-time 2014-09-17T14:17:46Z oGMo: never heard of it :p 2014-09-17T14:18:01Z stassats: that's because it isn't global-time 2014-09-17T14:18:03Z dlowe: that's not a meaningful datum 2014-09-17T14:18:10Z oGMo: personally i prefer my docs write themselves from docstrings + additional stuff, but i want tools to make the process more dynamic than e.g. gendoc 2014-09-17T14:18:42Z oGMo: dlowe: no but if it was some awesome thing i used all the time it might be a meaningful thing, too 2014-09-17T14:19:37Z oGMo: i haven't seen a great nontrivial API predesigned and not entirely altered along the way, especially as a result of actually using it 2014-09-17T14:19:56Z dlowe: I didn't say anything about not altering it. 2014-09-17T14:19:59Z eudoxia: well, sure, you can't predict the future and your API will change, but i agree with dlowe 2014-09-17T14:20:09Z oGMo doesn't consider any (nontrivial) project "release" until it's actually been used elsewhere and the rough edges sanded down 2014-09-17T14:20:31Z dlowe: it's a useful extension of test-first development 2014-09-17T14:20:34Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:20:47Z oGMo: dlowe: yes, but why do all the work when you can have it extract and build your documentation from the code? you could stub it if you really want to predesign your stuff 2014-09-17T14:21:13Z oGMo: when i see it actually work for something meaningful, i'll think about it 2014-09-17T14:21:15Z chitofan: what is the first argument in dotimes for? 2014-09-17T14:21:26Z eudoxia: oGMo: collecting docstrings is not documentation, it's an API reference, part of documentation 2014-09-17T14:21:29Z stassats: for times 2014-09-17T14:21:36Z oGMo: eudoxia: obvious 2014-09-17T14:22:01Z stassats: (dotimes (i 10) (print i)) 2014-09-17T14:22:24Z stassats: clhs dotimes 2014-09-17T14:22:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm 2014-09-17T14:22:29Z stassats: your you could have done that 2014-09-17T14:22:40Z chitofan: i read it but i didnt understand 2014-09-17T14:23:06Z dlowe: chitofan: it just gives you an incrementing integer from 0 2014-09-17T14:23:11Z stassats: and the last one is for (dotimes (i 10 20) (print i)) => 20 2014-09-17T14:23:23Z stassats: and that's dotimes for you 2014-09-17T14:23:24Z dlowe: oGMo: something meaningful like the common lisp language? :p 2014-09-17T14:23:33Z oGMo: dlowe: did not happen 2014-09-17T14:23:49Z dlowe: what's a spec, then? 2014-09-17T14:23:57Z oGMo: CL had a vast array of lisp to draw on when building the spec 2014-09-17T14:24:05Z oGMo: it was not "hey let's invent an API first" 2014-09-17T14:24:11Z dlowe: Sure, but they didn't make stub functions with docstrings, either 2014-09-17T14:24:20Z Elench quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T14:24:22Z oGMo: yet still irrelevant 2014-09-17T14:24:34Z chitofan: stassats, something like this ok? 2014-09-17T14:24:35Z dlowe: precisely your advice 2014-09-17T14:24:37Z chitofan: is ok* 2014-09-17T14:24:37Z chitofan: (let (grid) (dotimes (n size grid) (push (make-list size 0) grid)))) 2014-09-17T14:24:42Z Elench joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:24:45Z oGMo: dlowe: when making something completely new 2014-09-17T14:24:49Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:24:53Z oGMo: and i didn't say _just_ docstrings 2014-09-17T14:25:18Z stassats: chitofan: i actually never use the result parameter, i would just put the GRID variable after dotimes 2014-09-17T14:25:37Z stassats: and to make a list of 0 you need to specify :initial-element 0 2014-09-17T14:25:46Z dlowe: oGMo: you're going to ignore all previous art when you create something? 2014-09-17T14:26:12Z chitofan: (let (grid) (dotimes (n size) (push (make-list size 0) grid)))) 2014-09-17T14:26:22Z chitofan: so this is still valid? 2014-09-17T14:26:29Z stassats: and naturally, i would've used loop (loop repeat size collect (make-list size :initial-element 0)) 2014-09-17T14:26:36Z chitofan: im just looking at others' code.. it's supposedly functional 2014-09-17T14:26:52Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:26:59Z stassats: well, your make-list isn't valid 2014-09-17T14:27:14Z stassats: unless we're talking elisp, which isn't valid in this channel 2014-09-17T14:27:19Z chitofan: does it mean anything if its elisp? 2014-09-17T14:27:27Z chitofan: oh, ok 2014-09-17T14:27:39Z stassats: #emacs is for that 2014-09-17T14:28:10Z |3b|: has slime or sbcl gotten worse at source locations recently? 2014-09-17T14:28:27Z stassats: due to ` 2014-09-17T14:28:38Z |3b|: if no ` are involved? 2014-09-17T14:29:07Z stassats: then no, but it just wasn't much good anyway 2014-09-17T14:29:32Z stassats: macros, progn, etc. are easily confuse it 2014-09-17T14:29:46Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: 1) the documentation is available online; 2) what patched texinfo ? 2014-09-17T14:30:00Z |3b|: hmm, could be a macro i guess 2014-09-17T14:31:16Z Cymew: 1) doesn't help when you are offline 2) from the README " 2014-09-17T14:31:17Z Cymew: To generate the documentation, use this patched version of 2014-09-17T14:31:19Z Cymew: texinfo-docstrings: http://gitorious.org/iolib/texinfo-docstrings 2014-09-17T14:31:20Z Cymew: " 2014-09-17T14:31:44Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:32:32Z fe[nl]ix: that's a documentation generator extracted from the sources of sbcl 2014-09-17T14:32:50Z fe[nl]ix: but it's not texinfo, it outputs files in texinfo format 2014-09-17T14:33:00Z fe[nl]ix: but it's not texinfo, it outputs files in texinfo format 2014-09-17T14:33:10Z |3b|: hmm, expanded the macro and still wrong 2014-09-17T14:33:34Z stassats: |3b|: yeah, the most annoying thing 2014-09-17T14:33:40Z stassats: especially if you have large functions 2014-09-17T14:34:38Z stassats: a test case is welcome 2014-09-17T14:35:04Z |3b|: trying to reduce it a bit 2014-09-17T14:35:11Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:35:13Z mishoo__ quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2014-09-17T14:35:25Z Cymew: fe[nl]ix: Eh? What? 2014-09-17T14:35:41Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:35:52Z janmuffino quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:36:24Z Amaan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:36:24Z splittist_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:36:40Z Neet__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:36:41Z faheem quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:36:41Z rvirding quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:36:51Z aksatac___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:37:09Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: there's a big difference between the piece of software named "texinfo", and another piece of software named "texinfo-docstrings" that outputs files in the format recognized by the software "texinfo" 2014-09-17T14:37:20Z fe[nl]ix: said format being also named "texinfo" 2014-09-17T14:38:30Z Cymew: Does that address my complaint that the documentation needs a patched version of some software to build the docs? 2014-09-17T14:38:42Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: also, I suggest learning about wget --mirror 2014-09-17T14:39:16Z stassats: i have a patched version of /dev/zero 2014-09-17T14:39:25Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: yes. texinfo-docstrings is so obscure, that it doesn't matter whose fork you're using 2014-09-17T14:40:24Z Cymew: I don't understand what you mean. I just wonder how to build the docs, and I'ld like it to be done using tools available in a standard install of my randomly selected linux 2014-09-17T14:41:10Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: AFAIK, no linux distribution packages docstring extractors for CL 2014-09-17T14:41:18Z bit` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:42:42Z Cymew: Which might be my main point. It would be nicest to distribute the documentation in a form so it's easily availble, or just leave it as an excercise for the reader. 2014-09-17T14:42:56Z Cymew: ...or provide the tool with your project 2014-09-17T14:43:27Z Cymew: I mean, if the source is the documentation, state that instead of referring to some obscure tool not provided 2014-09-17T14:43:56Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:44:08Z fe[nl]ix: Cymew: http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/manual/ 2014-09-17T14:44:23Z eudoxia: which is texinfo-docstrings so complicated, jesus 2014-09-17T14:44:37Z eudoxia: why not just make a library that extracts the docstrings and make that available through quicklisp 2014-09-17T14:44:41Z eudoxia: no shell scripts, no cl-launch 2014-09-17T14:44:59Z fe[nl]ix: texinfo-docstrings was created many years before quicklisp 2014-09-17T14:45:06Z eudoxia: time to move on then 2014-09-17T14:45:15Z fe[nl]ix: be my guest 2014-09-17T14:45:30Z Shinmera: Staple has a general purpose 'symbol analysing' part that you can use for that 2014-09-17T14:45:33Z eudoxia: i suppose i'll have to, at some pont 2014-09-17T14:45:33Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T14:45:49Z fe[nl]ix: if you're willing to convert the documentation to sphinx, that is 2014-09-17T14:45:53Z eudoxia: Shinmera: staple needs better default CSS, I should put that on my trello 2014-09-17T14:46:07Z |3b|: stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143751 2014-09-17T14:46:13Z stassats: fe[nl]ix: is there no link to the manual from http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ ? 2014-09-17T14:46:14Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Be my guest to make a snazzy default template :) 2014-09-17T14:46:34Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:46:53Z fe[nl]ix: stassats: there was before cl.net switched from Apache to nginx 2014-09-17T14:47:18Z stassats: |3b|: i think that's because of the code elimintation 2014-09-17T14:47:52Z stassats: although, wrapping it in PRINT doesn't change things 2014-09-17T14:48:00Z Krystof: |3b|: neat 2014-09-17T14:48:29Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T14:48:31Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:48:39Z Krystof: file a lp bug? 2014-09-17T14:48:43Z |3b|: ok 2014-09-17T14:49:39Z przl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:49:47Z stassats: (defun x (x) (typep x '(integer)) (error "x")) 2014-09-17T14:49:51Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T14:49:58Z faheem joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:50:00Z rvirding_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:50:02Z stassats: (typep x 'integer) does work 2014-09-17T14:50:18Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:50:39Z PuffTheMagic_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:50:51Z stassats: actually, (defun x (x) '(integer) (error x)) 2014-09-17T14:51:30Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T14:51:31Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:51:38Z stassats: miminal would be (defun x () '(x) (error "x")) 2014-09-17T14:51:40Z Neet__ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:51:49Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-17T14:51:52Z aksatac___ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:52:03Z Elench quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T14:52:37Z |3b|: is there a way to see the problem from sbcl debugger so lp bug doesn't need slime involved? 2014-09-17T14:53:01Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:53:04Z stassats: yes, just run it 2014-09-17T14:53:39Z Elench` is now known as Elench 2014-09-17T14:53:50Z stassats: run (defun x () '(wrong) (error "x")) to see it better 2014-09-17T14:54:04Z _d3f quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T14:54:25Z |3b|: ok 2014-09-17T14:54:45Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:54:49Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:55:07Z schjetne: Any Restas users here? I'm stuck on how to deal with query parameters 2014-09-17T14:55:38Z |3b| will add a declare (optimize debug) as well 2014-09-17T14:57:03Z stassats: right 2014-09-17T14:57:22Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-09-17T14:58:52Z pgomes left #lisp 2014-09-17T14:59:34Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:00:12Z |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1370561 2014-09-17T15:02:06Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:02:17Z vanila joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:02:57Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:03:13Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:04:58Z schjetne: I guess I might have to end the routes with a ?:query and do my own parsing 2014-09-17T15:05:48Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:05:50Z przl_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:07:21Z pgomes left #lisp 2014-09-17T15:07:36Z _d3f quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-09-17T15:07:53Z H4ns: schjetne: doesn't restas use hunchentoot? 2014-09-17T15:08:21Z H4ns: schjetne: if so, why don't you just use hunchentoot's functionality to deal with query parameters? 2014-09-17T15:08:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:08:42Z |3b| seems to remember that being the expected way to get them, though might be confusing it with something else 2014-09-17T15:09:22Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:10:17Z chitofan quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-09-17T15:10:37Z schjetne: H4ns: Hunchentoot seems to have a way to extract the string, but not turn it into an alist or plist 2014-09-17T15:10:57Z H4ns: schjetne: get-parameter/get-parameters iirc 2014-09-17T15:11:32Z schjetne: Ah, that's the one, thanks 2014-09-17T15:11:55Z schjetne: Now I just need to figure out how to access the request object from within the route definition 2014-09-17T15:12:21Z H4ns: you don't 2014-09-17T15:12:26Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:12:41Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:13:52Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:13:56Z jegaxd26 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T15:15:20Z schjetne: H4ns: how would I use it, then? 2014-09-17T15:16:04Z H4ns: schjetne: from within your handler. i think you can't route based on query parameters, if that is what you hoped. 2014-09-17T15:16:06Z schjetne: wait, that was optional 2014-09-17T15:16:43Z schjetne: the request object in the get-parameters was optional, I mean 2014-09-17T15:16:46Z schjetne: I'll give it a try 2014-09-17T15:17:30Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:18:38Z H4ns: schjetne: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 2014-09-17T15:23:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:24:20Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:27:41Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:27:43Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:29:02Z schjetne: H4ns: yes, it works, thanks 2014-09-17T15:29:11Z _d3f quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-09-17T15:29:44Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:30:11Z schjetne: the bit about gaining access to the request object was just my brain going into over-engineering mode and ignoring the &optional in the docs 2014-09-17T15:30:51Z H4ns: schjetne: should you ever need the request object, there is hunchentoot:*request* 2014-09-17T15:31:45Z schjetne: ah, yes, I should have realised that from the default value 2014-09-17T15:32:03Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:32:17Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:33:02Z schjetne: Anyway, thanks for the help. I think it's time to commit the changes and go home now. 2014-09-17T15:33:38Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:33:39Z prxq_ is now known as prxq 2014-09-17T15:35:09Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T15:38:24Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:40:08Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-09-17T15:40:22Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:41:01Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:42:17Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:44:44Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:45:45Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:46:13Z `JRG quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:46:13Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T15:52:21Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:52:44Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T15:52:44Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:54:29Z arpunk joined #lisp 2014-09-17T15:56:10Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T15:57:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T16:00:04Z beach joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:00:19Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-09-17T16:00:35Z jdz joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:01:44Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T16:02:15Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:03:15Z beach: drmeister: The Cleavir minimal compilation code is almost finished. I am currently writing tests for it. 2014-09-17T16:03:23Z vanila: good morning 2014-09-17T16:03:40Z drmeister: beach: Wonderful! 2014-09-17T16:04:12Z beach: drmeister: I needed minimal compilation in order to translate MACROLET to AST. 2014-09-17T16:04:16Z drmeister: I'm just mucking around with LLVM to improve how I link modules together. 2014-09-17T16:04:19Z oudeis_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:05:09Z wasamasa: drmeister: normally I'd ask you once again about the IP status on clasp 2014-09-17T16:05:20Z wasamasa: drmeister: but I've read my backlog and apparently you've already asked them 2014-09-17T16:05:27Z stassats: does it support IPv6? 2014-09-17T16:05:30Z drmeister: I see. I first used my interpreter and then I switched to compiling the MACROLET forms. You don't have those options. 2014-09-17T16:05:59Z drmeister: wasamasa: It's Wednesday - so fair enough. 2014-09-17T16:06:03Z wasamasa: drmeister: will there be some sort of recording of your talk? 2014-09-17T16:06:41Z drmeister: I've resorted to daily emails to my IP contact and she told me yesterday that she was finally reading the LGPL licence. For crying out loud. 2014-09-17T16:06:48Z wasamasa: .-. 2014-09-17T16:07:20Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, MACROLET is complicated, because of the possibility of cross compilation. In that case, the definitions must be macroexpanded in the target environment and then compiled in the host environment, whereas the body must be both macroexpanded and compiled in the target environment. 2014-09-17T16:07:26Z wasamasa: I hope the LGPL is shorter than the GPL licenses 2014-09-17T16:08:31Z drmeister: wasamasa: I also CC'd her and her director an email I sent last night to the LLVM dev meeting organizer expressing that I was still very interested in talking and I realize that not having Clasp available on the web might decrease the chances that I can give a talk and so I'm making every effort to push our IP people to move forward on open sourcing. 2014-09-17T16:09:08Z oudeis_ left #lisp 2014-09-17T16:09:50Z drmeister: beach: Since my host and target environments are the same I didn't consider those problems. These are more reasons why I'm excited about Cleavir. 2014-09-17T16:10:46Z beach: drmeister: I see, yes. It turns out that by considering different hosts and targets and native and cross compilation, I am able to obtain much nicer code. 2014-09-17T16:11:16Z drmeister: I'm dealing with the implementation dependent problem of linking multiple modules together and getting their initialization functions to all run in the correct sequence. LLVM has an "appending" linkage for global variables that I'm exploring as a solution to this nagging problem I've had. 2014-09-17T16:11:20Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T16:11:45Z beach: Sounds complicated. 2014-09-17T16:13:30Z foom: drmeister: You might have better luck with a simpler license. 2014-09-17T16:14:09Z drmeister: What's annoying is that when you link modules together and the global variables are appended together there is no provision to determine the length of the appended array! I have to write a back-end compiler pass that analyzes the Module and calculates the length and inserts another global variable. It's the typical "reach between your legs, across your back, over your head - to scratch your nose" sort of solution that comes up so often. 2014-09-17T16:14:12Z foom: drmeister: if it being LGPL isn't critical to you, that is, your org's IP people might be more quickly able to read the MIT or BSD license. :) 2014-09-17T16:15:13Z drmeister: foom: My problem is not the license - it's that our IP office has never had to open source anything and they are treating it like some huge complicated problem - or they are ignoring it - I don't know. 2014-09-17T16:16:01Z foom: I mean, if you're never encountered it before, the LGPL *is* a pretty complicated thing. 2014-09-17T16:16:06Z beach: drmeister: I don't understand the details of the linking problem, but I suppose that's because it is LLVM specific. 2014-09-17T16:16:47Z drmeister: I'm going to go visit their office now to remind them that I'm waiting. I'm not being an asshole about it - it's just that they are going to say "Yes" at some point and why the heck not now so I can get on with things? 2014-09-17T16:17:12Z beach: drmeister: Trick that sometimes works: invite the person out to lunch. 2014-09-17T16:17:13Z drmeister: beach: Yes - it's LLVM/unix specific. 2014-09-17T16:17:44Z drmeister: beach: Good point. I'll do that today - maybe for Friday. 2014-09-17T16:18:07Z beach: drmeister: Let me know if it worked :) 2014-09-17T16:23:11Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:23:59Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:26:04Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:27:00Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T16:29:42Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-09-17T16:32:39Z whartung joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:32:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T16:33:07Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-17T16:34:21Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T16:36:02Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T16:39:26Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-17T16:39:40Z phadthai: wasamasa: the LGPLv2 used to be a separate license from the GPLv2, but the LGPLv3 is now an exceptions addendum to the LGPLv3, so it's more complex; anyone may freely relicense LGPLv3 code under the GPLv3 or AGPLv3 for instance, if I remember 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2014-09-17T17:31:44Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T17:31:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-09-17T17:32:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T17:33:21Z mncoder joined #lisp 2014-09-17T17:37:35Z jasom: john-mcaleely: actually it is possible to do that with ecl, and a lot of other lisps do let you compile to a fasl, which is slightly analagouse to a c object file 2014-09-17T17:37:50Z jasom: sorry, I was apparently scrolled up by a full day 2014-09-17T17:39:46Z gryyy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T17:40:26Z Elench quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T17:40:33Z clop: in cl-fad, how do you get the parent-directory given a particular path? (cl-fad:pathname-parent-directory "/home/jared") is returning "/jared", which makes no sense... 2014-09-17T17:41:26Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-09-17T17:51:42Z |3b|: yeah, that looks either broken or confusing 2014-09-17T17:53:06Z eudoxia: (cl-fad:pathname-parent-directory "/home/jared/") 2014-09-17T17:53:29Z eudoxia: (cl-fad:pathname-directory-pathname "/home/jared") 2014-09-17T17:54:32Z |3b|: eudoxia: either way, doesn't seem like it should include "jared" in the answer, unless it is explicit about only accepting directories 2014-09-17T17:54:34Z jlongste` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T17:55:03Z |3b|: and docstring mentions "filenames" which seems like the opposite of "explicit about only accepting directories" 2014-09-17T17:55:20Z eudoxia: i dunno, i just know the second one works 2014-09-17T17:55:41Z |3b|: from the docs, i'd expect "/" 2014-09-17T17:57:18Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:00:16Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:00:51Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:01:04Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T18:01:23Z Vivitron: clop: that does look wrong. Fare's been recommending people use his uiop instead of cl-fad but I haven't tried that myself. One general comment: in cl a pathname has a name field separate from the directory field, so it is often significant to include the trailing slash for naming directories 2014-09-17T18:03:38Z jasom: clop: that looks wrong according to the docs "The parent directory 2014-09-17T18:03:40Z jasom: of a filename is the parent of the filename's dirname." 2014-09-17T18:06:37Z clop: a hack that seems to work is, (cl-fad:pathname-parent-directory (cl-fad:pathname-as-directory pathname)) 2014-09-17T18:06:43Z clop: the inner call adds the trailing slash if needed... 2014-09-17T18:06:49Z clop: then the outer call seems to do the right thing 2014-09-17T18:07:00Z clop: yeah i think it must be related to the pathname name field stuff 2014-09-17T18:07:05Z clop: i have never understood paths :( 2014-09-17T18:07:36Z jasom: clop: I would have expected it to return "/" 2014-09-17T18:08:14Z jasom: I think it's perhaps not just extracting the directory part after removing the most specific directory? 2014-09-17T18:08:35Z jasom: which is still a bug 2014-09-17T18:09:11Z jasom: clop: /home/jared refers to the file named "jared" in the directory "/home/" so the parent directory should be "/" according to the FAD documentation 2014-09-17T18:09:35Z jasom: what's probably happening is it's setting the directory part to "/" but not clearing the file part, so giving you "/jared" 2014-09-17T18:10:41Z faheem__1: what's the recommended way for viewing the hyperspec inside emacs. and is there some way to call it up by just doing a mouseover? by default slime (or whaever) will show the function signature in the minibuffer 2014-09-17T18:11:02Z oGMo: w3-mode? 2014-09-17T18:11:05Z jasom: yeah, I'm looking at the code for pathname-parent-directory and it's just wrong. 2014-09-17T18:11:12Z oGMo: er, w3m i guess 2014-09-17T18:11:15Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T18:11:17Z faheem__1: it would be nice if that called up the hyperspec instead, would be much more useful. 2014-09-17T18:11:47Z faheem__1: oGMo: are you addressing me? 2014-09-17T18:12:24Z jasom: faheem__1: if you set your browser to w3m it should do that instead of opening up in whatever browser it currently opens up in 2014-09-17T18:12:26Z oGMo: faheem__1: yes. use w3m and assign it as your default browser, then the hotkey will bring it up there 2014-09-17T18:12:55Z jasom: faheem__1: the command is slime-hyperspec-lookup 2014-09-17T18:12:58Z faheem__1: jasom: ok. how do i set the browser? 2014-09-17T18:13:16Z faheem__1: jasom: any recipe out there i can use? 2014-09-17T18:13:35Z jasom: faheem__1: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BrowseUrl 2014-09-17T18:13:44Z faheem__1: jasom: thank you 2014-09-17T18:14:24Z clop: Vivitron, thanks for the pointer to uiop, i hadn't heard of it before; its web site seems to be down and its documentation on quickdocs seems to only have package-related stuff... 2014-09-17T18:15:42Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:15:46Z faheem__1: i see i already have it set to chromium (I think) 2014-09-17T18:16:16Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-17T18:16:19Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:16:40Z faheem__1: i have -> (setq browse-url-browser-function 'browse-url-generic browse-url-generic-program "chromium-browser") 2014-09-17T18:16:44Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:16:48Z jasom: clop: partial documentation here http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Some-Utility-Functions 2014-09-17T18:17:01Z faheem__1: should i just change "chromium-browser" to w3m? 2014-09-17T18:17:18Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:19:05Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:20:01Z clop: thanks! 2014-09-17T18:20:17Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:20:20Z Vivitron: clop: If your interested you can explore it with quicklispable (repl-utilities:package-apropos uiop) then summary or readme on the interesting packages, e.g. (repl-utilities:readme uiop/pathname) -- uiop:pathname-parent-directory-pathname seems to be a not obviously broken version of what you want 2014-09-17T18:22:13Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:24:36Z logand joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:24:42Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:24:58Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-09-17T18:27:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:27:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T18:27:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:29:38Z keen__ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:31:07Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-09-17T18:31:18Z keen_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:31:35Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:31:53Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:32:27Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T18:35:28Z bdr3553 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:36:03Z ahungry_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T18:36:29Z ejbs joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:41:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:41:52Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-17T18:42:23Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:42:56Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:46:02Z vaporatorius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T18:47:27Z vanila joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:49:23Z mncoder quit (Quit: mncoder) 2014-09-17T18:50:36Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:53:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T18:53:34Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:54:45Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:54:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:55:42Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:56:24Z faheem__1: there is a debian package called hyperspec. can i connect emacs to that? 2014-09-17T18:56:41Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-09-17T18:58:34Z dlowe: faheem: yes 2014-09-17T18:58:40Z faheem__1: it also installs a file called /etc/emacs/site-start.d/60hyperspec.el 2014-09-17T18:58:56Z faheem__1: but i'm not sure how to proceed. 2014-09-17T18:59:14Z faheem__1: The file says: ";; Set a keybinding for the COMMON-LISP-HYPERSPEC command" 2014-09-17T18:59:36Z faheem__1: "(defkey-ilisp [(control f1)] 'common-lisp-hyperspec)" 2014-09-17T18:59:55Z faheem__1: So, is the key command ctrl-F1? that doesn't do anything. 2014-09-17T19:00:07Z dlowe: faheem: have you restarted emacs or loaded that file? 2014-09-17T19:00:23Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:00:27Z faheem__1: dlowe: loaded /etc/emacs/site-start.d/60hyperspec.el? it isn't loaded by default? 2014-09-17T19:00:48Z dlowe: faheem__1: if you haven't restarted emacs since the file was added, it's not going to affect the running emacs 2014-09-17T19:01:33Z madrik quit (Quit: sleep) 2014-09-17T19:02:07Z faheem__1: dlowe: i've restarted. ctrl-F1 at least doesn't appear to do anything. is that the correct keybinding? 2014-09-17T19:02:48Z dlowe: faheem__1: defkey-ilisp suggests that the key only works in an ilisp buffer 2014-09-17T19:03:10Z dlowe: faheem__1: you could try M-x common-lisp-hyperspec however 2014-09-17T19:03:18Z faheem__1: dlowe: i don't know that that is. 2014-09-17T19:03:21Z faheem__1: dlowe: ok. 2014-09-17T19:03:29Z dlowe: "inferior lisp" 2014-09-17T19:04:03Z faheem__1: dlowe: i ran M-x common-lisp-hyperspec. what does that do? 2014-09-17T19:04:24Z dlowe: beats me. I've never used what you're doing. 2014-09-17T19:04:36Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:04:48Z dlowe: when I run it, it asks for a symbol to look up 2014-09-17T19:04:52Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:05:39Z drewc: `C-c C-d h` is for non-M$ lusers :) IIRC 2014-09-17T19:06:09Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:06:15Z Blaguvest quit 2014-09-17T19:06:32Z faheem__1: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Documentation.html suggests that C-c C-d h would do something. start up a browser, perhaps. but nothing seems to happen 2014-09-17T19:06:32Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:06:35Z dlowe: I never remember that key sequence 2014-09-17T19:06:55Z dlowe: that's only in a lisp or slime buffer 2014-09-17T19:06:57Z drewc uses it all the time, though again, avoiding anything related to .deb, APT, c-l-c, etc etc etc ... and no M$ menus or keystrokes 2014-09-17T19:06:58Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:07:20Z faheem__1: dlowe: yes, i'm in a slime buffer 2014-09-17T19:07:47Z karswell` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:07:50Z faheem__1: "`C-c C-d h` is for non-M$ lusers :)" Don't follow. 2014-09-17T19:08:10Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:08:25Z drewc: one day you might! :P 2014-09-17T19:09:00Z faheem__1: Is -> (setq browse-url-browser-function 'browse-url-generic browse-url-generic-program "w3m") 2014-09-17T19:09:01Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:09:07Z drewc: did look at *Messages* ? 2014-09-17T19:09:09Z pnpuff quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-17T19:09:14Z faheem__1: the correct syntax for setting browse-url-browser-function? 2014-09-17T19:09:14Z drewc: Do you use w3m? 2014-09-17T19:09:24Z faheem__1: drewc: trying to, see above. 2014-09-17T19:09:28Z drewc: oh wait .... 2014-09-17T19:09:35Z Grue`: C-c C-d h works for this particular M$ luser 2014-09-17T19:09:37Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:09:37Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-09-17T19:09:37Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:09:53Z drewc: Grue`: shows what I know! :) 2014-09-17T19:09:55Z faheem__1: still wondering what "M$ luser" means. 2014-09-17T19:10:09Z dlowe: "microsoft loser" 2014-09-17T19:10:12Z faheem__1: if you mean Microsoft, what does that have to do with anything? 2014-09-17T19:10:16Z faheem__1: dlowe: oh 2014-09-17T19:10:31Z dlowe: F1 is a common microsoft shortcut for "Help" 2014-09-17T19:10:38Z faheem__1: Grue`: what do you need to configure to get C-c C-d h to work? 2014-09-17T19:10:42Z Grue`: by default it should just run the default system browser 2014-09-17T19:10:52Z Grue`: it calls some Emacs function that opens urls 2014-09-17T19:10:57Z faheem__1: Grue`: hmm. with point in a buffer will work? or on the repl? 2014-09-17T19:11:01Z drewc: faheem__1: Microsoft Użyszkodnik 2014-09-17T19:11:20Z faheem__1: Grue`: is my syntax above for setting browse-url-browser-function correct? 2014-09-17T19:11:31Z faheem__1: drewc: don't follow. 2014-09-17T19:11:52Z faheem__1: (setq browse-url-browser-function 'browse-url-generic browse-url-generic-program "w3m") 2014-09-17T19:12:14Z Grue`: it seems like this setq form is too long 2014-09-17T19:12:27Z faheem__1: i had it set to "chromium-browser". maybe i should take this to #emacs 2014-09-17T19:12:44Z faheem__1: Grue`: dunno. i can't remember where i got it from, but it must have been a while. maybe 2012. 2014-09-17T19:12:46Z Grue`: wait, i forgot it can actually set 2 vars at once 2014-09-17T19:13:04Z Grue`: but anyway, try without it maybe? 2014-09-17T19:13:12Z faheem__1: let me try #emacs. maybe there are some people who use slime there. 2014-09-17T19:13:13Z Grue`: it should work with defaultts 2014-09-17T19:13:18Z gryyy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T19:13:22Z faheem__1: Grue`: ok. i'll try commenting it out. 2014-09-17T19:13:25Z gryyy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:13:38Z faheem__1: Grue`: thanks 2014-09-17T19:13:51Z drewc: if you do not use w3m, and do not have it installed via .deb .. then how is that setq going to work? 2014-09-17T19:14:13Z faheem__1: drewc: i think i have it installed, but let me check 2014-09-17T19:14:24Z faheem__1: i do, yes 2014-09-17T19:14:40Z Grue`: I also have (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "path_to_local_hyperspec") so it works even offline 2014-09-17T19:14:54Z faheem__1: Grue`: offline is good. 2014-09-17T19:15:04Z faheem__1: i would actually prefer offline 2014-09-17T19:15:41Z faheem__1: yes, that is what -> /etc/emacs/site-start.d/60hyperspec.el in the debian hyperspec package does 2014-09-17T19:15:55Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:16:02Z faheem__1: i'm looking forward to the new emacs SE site. Assuming questions like this are on-topic there. 2014-09-17T19:16:04Z drewc has a caching web proxy... so uses lispworks website hyperspec offline. 2014-09-17T19:16:18Z faheem__1: drewc: fancy 2014-09-17T19:16:49Z drewc: faheem__1: yes, 1990 fancy! WRT54G ! 2014-09-17T19:16:55Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:18:05Z drewc lies, 2002 seems to be when his WRT54G was released 2014-09-17T19:18:14Z drewc: so 12 years not 24. 2014-09-17T19:18:36Z drewc: which is indeed fancy! and it runs CCL 2014-09-17T19:19:39Z faheem__1: drewc: your router runs CCL? 2014-09-17T19:20:10Z faheem__1: that's the little blue box, right? 2014-09-17T19:21:41Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:22:07Z faheem__1: yes, if i remove those lines, C-c C-d h pops up a tab in chromium. 2014-09-17T19:22:34Z faheem__1: so i guess i just need to configure the default browser as w3m. apparently the syntax i was using is not correct. 2014-09-17T19:23:07Z faheem__1: will w3m just open a buffer? 2014-09-17T19:23:13Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:23:30Z faheem__1: though really, just want it to read my local CLHS copy. 2014-09-17T19:23:41Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T19:23:52Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:24:11Z drewc: faheem__1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linksys_WRT54G_series ... or: when you are looking for the definition of a term, there is now this thing called "Internet". Now I use duckduckgo a lot of the time, but google is what many use and likely works "better". 2014-09-17T19:25:07Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:25:26Z dlowe: The CLHS is in html, so you need a browser to open it, even locally 2014-09-17T19:26:09Z faheem__1: dlowe: oh, right. 2014-09-17T19:26:48Z faheem__1: drewc: it's better to not rely on the net if you don't have to 2014-09-17T19:27:37Z drewc: faheem__1: You are aware what the "I" in IRC stands for, yeah? 2014-09-17T19:28:12Z drewc: OR: if you should not be here because of your beliefs, I agree with your beliefs! :P 2014-09-17T19:28:19Z dlowe: the internet is not reliable and fast everywhere in the world. 2014-09-17T19:28:52Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-09-17T19:29:23Z faheem__1: ok, just realised the chromium tab is reading the local copy. so i guess i need to see how to set w3m correctly. will it just open a buffer inside emacs? 2014-09-17T19:29:42Z faheem__1: dlowe: definitely not reliable and fast here. 2014-09-17T19:30:04Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-09-17T19:30:06Z dlowe: faheem__1: at duke.edu? That's pretty surprising. 2014-09-17T19:30:14Z farhaven joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:30:33Z faheem__1: per -> (setq browse-url-browser-function 'w3m-browse-url) 2014-09-17T19:30:35Z dlowe: faheem__1: That's a good #emacs or google question 2014-09-17T19:30:51Z faheem__1: dlowe: no, i'm sshing to this machine remotely. 2014-09-17T19:31:19Z dlowe: or, you know, just messing with it 2014-09-17T19:31:21Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:32:00Z faheem__1: dlowe: pardon? 2014-09-17T19:32:15Z faheem__1: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/emacs-w3m says (setq browse-url-browser-function 'w3m-browse-url) 2014-09-17T19:32:25Z drewc lives on a sailboat just off of canada and pays for satellie 9600 baud ... Cheap? no. Fast? no. Reliable? yes. 2014-09-17T19:32:37Z faheem__1: what does -> (autoload 'w3m-browse-url "w3m" "Ask a WWW browser to show a URL." t) do? 2014-09-17T19:32:41Z faheem__1: drewc: for real? 2014-09-17T19:32:58Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:33:56Z drewc: faheem__1: not really ...I think that 9600 is fast, but I recall my 2400 as being fast, so what do I know. 2014-09-17T19:34:18Z bdr3553 left #lisp 2014-09-17T19:34:31Z faheem__1: drewc: well, it sounded unlikely. 2014-09-17T19:34:57Z drewc: http://www.globalstar.com/ 2014-09-17T19:35:51Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T19:36:02Z drewc: and not what I have precisely, but almost the same thing : http://ca.globalstar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=111&sidenav=5638 2014-09-17T19:36:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:36:55Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-17T19:37:39Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T19:37:53Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:38:52Z theseb: how fix this?... I read docs on macros, quasiquotes and commas but then when i read macro source code....i still get confused again quickly....how get to where one is comfortable QUICKLY reading and writing macros? 2014-09-17T19:39:07Z Krystof quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-17T19:39:15Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-09-17T19:39:26Z drewc: and where I am currently located : http://bowen-island.com/ . The banner picture, in the middle on the outside of the main finger, is my ship. Sitting on her now, with 802.11b connecting to a WRT54 on land via my Rasberry PI + USB 14dbi wifi. She is also my office, where I Lisp for a living. 2014-09-17T19:40:42Z theseb: drewc: you live on a beautiful boat in a beautiful country? nice 2014-09-17T19:41:14Z drewc: theseb: I have been a pro common lisper for 10+ years.... and so far, nope ...not quite QUICKLY yet. 2014-09-17T19:41:33Z arpunk joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:42:24Z theseb: drewc: doesn't even a little waves from a little storm cause seasickness? 2014-09-17T19:42:35Z theseb: drewc: how can you work w/ bobbing up and down? 2014-09-17T19:42:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:42:40Z drewc: theseb: I don't know does it? 2014-09-17T19:43:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:43:18Z mtd_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T19:43:24Z mtd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:43:56Z drewc: theseb: never been on a boat? OR: never been on a 45' 28 tonne full keeled displacement vessel or similar? 2014-09-17T19:44:25Z theseb: drewc: i'd been deep sea fishing off san diego coast before...always threw up :) 2014-09-17T19:44:35Z Grue`: macros are turing complete, so you're not guaranteed to be able to understand any macro quickly (or in finite time at all); writing is another matter, you just need to know the algorithm 2014-09-17T19:44:48Z theseb: drewc: so even though your pad looks beautiful i'd fear the bobbing would make my head explode 2014-09-17T19:44:56Z drewc: OR: stillness illness landlubber. 2014-09-17T19:45:18Z faheem__1: still wondering how to enable w3m via browse-url-browser-function 2014-09-17T19:45:23Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:45:24Z faheem__1: tried random googling, didn't work 2014-09-17T19:45:44Z theseb: Grue`: lol...i'm trying to bust the Halting Theorem. :)....it would just be nice to look over a bunch of quasiquotes and commas and not get quickly confused 2014-09-17T19:46:24Z drewc: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stillness_illness 2014-09-17T19:46:43Z drewc: theseb: macroexpand? 2014-09-17T19:46:59Z drewc: OR: the compiler knows, use it! 2014-09-17T19:47:05Z easy-iPad joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:47:17Z theseb: drewc: yes...macroexpand is heaven....it just feels like cheating kinda...i mean..the macho thing would be to look at code and be able to understand it in your head 2014-09-17T19:49:13Z drewc: theseb: I will pay you 1 million Zimbabwean dollars if you can mentally compile sexps down to machine language.... if you consider using the compiler cheating, well, you are way way better than I will ever be. 2014-09-17T19:49:21Z normanrichards quit 2014-09-17T19:50:26Z theseb: drewc: whoa...beep beep...backup....no one said anything about assembly....i'd be giddy just to follow the evals in my head 2014-09-17T19:52:26Z drewc: theseb: you are aware that computers run the code that we input.... OR: Eval is evaluating the code we give it.... (defun foo () (foo)) ... try to follow that in your head :) 2014-09-17T19:53:03Z theseb: drewc: yes 2014-09-17T19:53:28Z theseb: drewc: i also know quantum physics is running our bodies but that doesn't mean i need/want to master it at this moment 2014-09-17T19:55:01Z drewc: ok, then what do you want/need to master at this moment? 2014-09-17T19:55:11Z easy-iPad quit (Quit: Outta here?) 2014-09-17T19:55:12Z drewc: OR: (disassemble (defun foo () (foo))) 2014-09-17T19:55:23Z theseb: drewc: MACROS! 2014-09-17T19:55:41Z drewc: theseb: define "MACROS" please 2014-09-17T19:56:55Z theseb: .how get to where one is comfortable QUICKLY reading and writing macros? 2014-09-17T19:57:04Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:57:05Z theseb: drewc: but as you said.. 2014-09-17T19:57:09Z theseb: maybe that is just a dream 2014-09-17T19:57:18Z theseb: at least for the 1st 10 years 2014-09-17T19:57:25Z Oberon4278: For some reason my fingers insist on typing "listp" instead of "lisp". It gets tiresome. 2014-09-17T19:57:25Z minion: Oberon4278, memo from pjb: you can consider you're entering the realm of AI, when you leave the procedural or "prescriptive" programming. That is, when you architecture your program by collecting algorithms and having a mecanism to apply them that is not hardwired. Then your program will be able to adapt more easily to unexpected data. 2014-09-17T19:57:26Z drewc: theseb: the C preproccessor? 2014-09-17T19:57:35Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T19:57:43Z drewc: OR: define "MACROS" please 2014-09-17T19:57:43Z theseb: drewc: are you a troll? 2014-09-17T19:57:53Z theseb: drewc: lisp macros 2014-09-17T19:58:05Z theseb: drewc: what you get when you do (defmacro ....) 2014-09-17T19:58:19Z Paul_McFreely quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-17T19:58:34Z drewc: theseb: are you are young and it is September still.... my bad, nothing to teach you here .. sorry for trying. 2014-09-17T19:58:55Z Paul_McFreely joined #lisp 2014-09-17T19:59:48Z ``Erik: theseb: try using macroexpand-1 to see how macroexpand works... eventually it might click O.o 2014-09-17T20:00:04Z rme: theseb: There's nothing wrong with having to think hard when writing and reading macros. 2014-09-17T20:00:49Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:01:02Z rme: Having to think about it doesn't mean you are dumb. 2014-09-17T20:01:02Z theseb: rme: maybe part of difficulty is macros are processed differently than other nonmacro expressions so you need to "switch" to thinking of this new algorithm 2014-09-17T20:01:07Z theseb: rme: thanks :) good to know!;) 2014-09-17T20:01:56Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-09-17T20:03:02Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:03:02Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:04:09Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:04:21Z drewc defines "macro" as "macro n. 1. a macro form 2. a macro function. 3. a macro name.' Does that make him a CLHS troll? :D 2014-09-17T20:04:27Z clop joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:07:57Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:07:58Z ejbs: drewc: Damn. That is nice (the boat situation) 2014-09-17T20:09:23Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:10:03Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:10:31Z clop joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:10:36Z drewc: ejbs: It was 2007, I had a fairly lucrative contract and wanted to spent the money 'wisely'. Sigh... She is my fourth yacht since then, so 'wise' might begin with 'Un'... but I am hooked on the marine life, and all four have been paid for via lisping ... so kinda sorta on topic. 2014-09-17T20:10:46Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:11:44Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T20:12:03Z White_Flame: theseb: there's nothing different about the execution of macros compared to normal functions 2014-09-17T20:12:17Z White_Flame: a macro is just a function which returns a source code list 2014-09-17T20:12:22Z sroy_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:12:34Z White_Flame: (well, usually a list) 2014-09-17T20:12:35Z Shinmera: White_Flame: not necessarily 2014-09-17T20:12:44Z Shinmera: A macro is a function that gets executed at a different time. 2014-09-17T20:12:52Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:13:19Z White_Flame: right, it depends on what he means by "processed differently" 2014-09-17T20:13:28Z Shinmera: Just like functions it can have wide ranging and complex effects 2014-09-17T20:13:29Z josteink: Im 0 2014-09-17T20:13:36Z Shinmera: But just like functions the base concept is simple 2014-09-17T20:13:37Z josteink: sorry. wrong window :) 2014-09-17T20:13:38Z Grue`: well, there's a caveat that it is then macroexpanded again until there are no macros anymore 2014-09-17T20:13:48Z White_Flame: but also just like functions, macros are just like functions ;) 2014-09-17T20:13:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:14:01Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:14:12Z Grue`: the function would just return a list and that's it 2014-09-17T20:14:19Z White_Flame: Grue`: that's processing on the return value; the execution of macro body code itself runs the same 2014-09-17T20:14:30Z drewc seems to want a definition of "macro" .... what happens if it starts with "reader" ... does (flet ((foo ...) (eval (foo))) count as a macro? inquiring minds want to know. 2014-09-17T20:14:43Z srcerer quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T20:15:26Z drewc: are symbols macros? can they be? 2014-09-17T20:16:12Z jasom: drewc: a rule or pattern that specifies how a certain input sequence should be mapped to a replacement output sequence. 2014-09-17T20:16:19Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:16:43Z White_Flame: drewc: I'd consider his statement "what you get when you do (defmacro ...)" to be sufficient for the context he's using 2014-09-17T20:16:59Z White_Flame: but yeah, ?QUESTION TO VAGUE ERROR, READY. 2014-09-17T20:17:10Z White_Flame: s/TO/TOO/ 2014-09-17T20:17:57Z Cymew quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T20:18:14Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:18:43Z jasom: TheMoonMaster: to get comforable with macros, think of what code you want output for what input; then there are some tricks as well (e.g. to preserve order of evaluation and prevent symbol capture) 2014-09-17T20:19:02Z jasom: whoops, that was to theseb, but he quit 2014-09-17T20:19:10Z drewc: White_Flame: while I likely agree with you there, I also have to disagree :) 2014-09-17T20:19:29Z Shinmera: I prefer to think of these 'tricks' as being considerate about your environment :) 2014-09-17T20:19:46Z drewc: (defun foo(&rest baz) ''bar) (setf (macro-function 'bar) #'foo) (bar) => BAR 2014-09-17T20:19:58Z jasom: Shinmera: right, but until you know a lot more about the environment than you will when first writing a macro... 2014-09-17T20:20:52Z Shinmera: jasom: I was saying that mostly because I like the duality in the meaning. 2014-09-17T20:20:53Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T20:20:55Z Ven: my reaction when I discovered :key and :test on remove-if and others functions like that ... :') 2014-09-17T20:21:04Z Ven: "gonna refactor quite some code now" 2014-09-17T20:21:32Z White_Flame: drewc: ah, but that creation vector does not preclude that which you get from defmacro invocation, so the description still holds 2014-09-17T20:22:41Z gryyy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T20:23:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:23:17Z gryyy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:23:19Z White_Flame: and there was no implication of exclusivity in the defmacro reference either 2014-09-17T20:24:12Z White_Flame: (I think this is the only channel I've been in where pedantry is encouraged and celebrated :) ) 2014-09-17T20:24:49Z drewc: White_Flame: true, but let's note that I did not ask for a definition of "macro"... 2014-09-17T20:25:05Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-17T20:26:18Z resttime: I think i found a bug in the usocket library with ECL 2014-09-17T20:26:24Z drewc: White_Flame: OR: "MACROS" was what I was focused on, and simply wanted to know what they meant/what they were talking about, and needed something related to Common Lisp. 2014-09-17T20:26:59Z resttime: si:find-foreign-symbol takes in a type 'base-string 2014-09-17T20:27:09Z White_Flame: still, "define \"MACROS\" please", "what you get when you do (defmacro ....)" 2014-09-17T20:27:15Z resttime: but apparently "gethostname" isn't of type 'base-string 2014-09-17T20:28:04Z White_Flame: drewc: of course, theseb might not be aware of the many different types of macros, but did declare focus on one generator of them 2014-09-17T20:28:26Z resttime: but 'simple-string instead 2014-09-17T20:28:28Z gryyy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:29:03Z resttime: the difference breaks the way functions are defined :/ 2014-09-17T20:29:31Z resttime: i would think that ECL would automatically coerce the string to the correct type 2014-09-17T20:29:35Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:29:37Z resttime: apparently not though 2014-09-17T20:30:12Z resttime: manually adding the coerce into the expanded macro seems to work however 2014-09-17T20:30:19Z drewc: White_Flame: true, but he said before that "it would just be nice to look over a bunch of quasiquotes and commas and not get quickly confused" .... so first I wanted to focus on common lisp not scheme, hence asking for a definition. Plus, yeah, I first said "10 years, no quickness yet!" or something along those lines. 2014-09-17T20:31:37Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-17T20:32:21Z logand` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:32:55Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-09-17T20:33:49Z TheMoonMaster: jasom: What? 2014-09-17T20:35:26Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:35:47Z Elench joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:36:12Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:37:50Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T20:38:05Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-17T20:40:15Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:44:18Z duggiefresh quit 2014-09-17T20:44:37Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:44:56Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:46:40Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2014-09-17T20:47:15Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-17T20:48:28Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:51:23Z Adlai: if paredit coped properly with git merge conflicts, that'd be great, mmhm 2014-09-17T20:53:49Z gryyy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:54:41Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:57:18Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:57:39Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-09-17T20:58:03Z gryyy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:58:32Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T20:58:52Z ehu_ is now known as ehu 2014-09-17T20:58:57Z drewc: Adlai: oh how I hate that ... and the error that will not let it load in my emacs 'till I un M-x it. 2014-09-17T20:59:21Z resttime: http://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/bugs/294/ 2014-09-17T20:59:32Z resttime: if anyone can test for this bug i'd be happy 2014-09-17T21:05:25Z PuffTheMagic_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-09-17T21:06:33Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T21:06:50Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-09-17T21:08:03Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-09-17T21:08:40Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-17T21:08:48Z Elench quit (Killed (holmes.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-09-17T21:10:48Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-09-17T22:56:17Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-09-17T22:57:19Z White_Flame: depends on the workload 2014-09-17T22:57:31Z jasom: vanila: the ones that make your code faster 2014-09-17T22:57:39Z White_Flame: I would guess that type inference is one of the largest general benefits overall 2014-09-17T22:57:59Z White_Flame: but there are so many compilation decisions involved with CL, each of which could be a burden depending on use 2014-09-17T22:58:02Z vanila: hm type inference seems pretty scary for lisp 2014-09-17T22:58:24Z vanila: I know how it works for lambda calculus but with SETF and dynamic typing it seems really complex 2014-09-17T22:59:27Z gryyy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T22:59:39Z White_Flame: SSA makes typing in the face of SETF much more tractable 2014-09-17T23:00:12Z White_Flame: at least in local scopes. In global scopes, all setf'd types can be OR'd together 2014-09-17T23:00:15Z vanila: ah interesting 2014-09-17T23:00:25Z vanila: I can see how SSA would help i think 2014-09-17T23:00:28Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:01:09Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-17T23:01:37Z adhoc joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:01:52Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:02:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:02:46Z Oberon4278 quit 2014-09-17T23:04:20Z CrazyEddy quit (K-Lined) 2014-09-17T23:04:22Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:06:54Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:06:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:10:56Z klltkr is now known as klltkr[Yes} 2014-09-17T23:11:00Z klltkr[Yes} is now known as klltkr[Yes] 2014-09-17T23:11:55Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:12:42Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:12:46Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:13:30Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:14:14Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:16:38Z Svetlana joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:17:54Z zlrth joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:18:03Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:19:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:19:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:23:57Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:29:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:30:04Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-17T23:30:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:32:42Z resttime: successful! 2014-09-17T23:33:21Z resttime: drakma-async doesn't disappoint once again 2014-09-17T23:33:34Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:33:41Z resttime: now i've got drakma working with ssl under ECL 2014-09-17T23:34:26Z resttime: CL+SSL really is kinda funky 2014-09-17T23:34:35Z resttime: or maybe only funky on windows :/ 2014-09-17T23:35:31Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-09-17T23:37:10Z drmeister: phadthai: I want them to let me release Clasp under the LGPL. 2014-09-17T23:40:37Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:41:49Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:41:57Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:44:02Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:44:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:50:16Z klltkr[Yes] quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-17T23:50:23Z pjb: vanila: the most important optimization, for any compiler, is that of the programmer time. If you can let the programmer avoid losing weeks on bad error messages or debugging wrong programs, then you'll get the results in days+seconds instead of weeks+microseconds, and this will be a big win. 2014-09-17T23:51:19Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-17T23:51:20Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-09-17T23:51:49Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-17T23:52:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:54:47Z resttime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-17T23:55:52Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-17T23:57:26Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-17T23:57:50Z gryyy joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:58:02Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-09-17T23:59:13Z AeroNotix: pjb: deep