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18:56:21 -!- names: jonh axion minion specbot easye hyoyoung_home cjwelborn phadthai jaimef adsisco pjb hpd benny mal_ Tristam abbe killmaster vhost- kbtr_ w|t aerique Jubb mtd_ K1rk dlowe pchrist ianmcorvidae sfa daimrod AeroNotix Blkt theBlackDragon ozzloy j_king loke_ sshirokov sbryant gko ConstantineXVI |3b| Zag ZombieChicken rvchangue z0d AntiSpamMeta cpt_nemo xristos Kruppe otwieracz tychoish ircbrowse Mathieu White_Flame oconnore ec TristamWrk _schulte_ Yamazaki-kun 18:56:21 -!- names: Xach quasisane Guest553` schoppenhauer copec oGMo andyo pok smull kbc Munksgaard antoszka fe[nl]ix eagleflo jsnell_ cmatei froggey tkd aeth justinmcp bege bobbysmith007 arbscht marcoecc hypno__ ramus marsbot zymurgy spacebat brucem staykov ecraven d3f eMBee Zhivago BlastHardcheese __main__ peccu3 saarin Neptu newcup kyl Watcher7 djinni` sjl nicdev clog johs ski nightshade427 zbigniew redline6561 nialo` eee-blt felideon farhaven sigjuice samebchase felipe 18:56:21 -!- names: dan64 yauz eak finnrobi 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ZZZzzz…] 19:38:45 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:58 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:58 is there an easy way to get the key with a given value ? Thinking a reverse assoc 19:41:05 You mean... rassoc? 19:41:42 :) 19:43:03 clintm: so far as I know, hunchentoot doesn't handle sessions. Generally that is done at the application layer, like with a framework. 19:43:04 i dont think so? i got a table with some key-value pairs. when using assoc with the key, i get the value. I want the oppsite of that, give it a value and get the key. Trying in the REPL doesn't seem to give me the right answer 19:43:22 with rassoc 19:43:35 the whole cdr has to match 19:44:08 so if you're looking for '((a . b)), rassoc will find 'b, but if you've got '((a b)), you need to look for '(b) with a :test 'equal 19:44:49 Ah, that did the trick, thank you 19:45:19 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-248-225.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:47:03 crixxus [~Rob@ec2-54-208-100-15.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:23 -!- crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:50:30 -!- nahiluhmot [~thulihan@pool-96-238-59-38.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:50:47 bgs100 [~bgs@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:51:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:11 xani [~user@178.183.151.230.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 19:55:29 -!- Malice [~Malice@94-229-220-135.static.espol.com.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:10 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:58:20 michael_lee [~michael_l@1.80.32.128] has joined #lisp 19:59:30 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-248-225.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:01 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:17 sauerkra- [~krause@cpe-24-27-50-196.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:56 guiambros_ [~guiambros@pool-108-54-164-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:05 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@1.80.32.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:39 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:04:47 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:04:56 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:15 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.13.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:26 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:05:27 hrs [~textual@199.47.74.43] has joined #lisp 20:05:42 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.13.113] has joined #lisp 20:06:35 -!- guiambros [~guiambros@pool-108-54-164-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:07:08 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@unaffiliated/stardiviner] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 20:08:18 innertracks [~Thunderbi@ip-64-134-142-77.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:59 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 Joreji [~thomas@170-088.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:58 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.13.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:22 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:13:00 prima_lux [~user@95.158.13.61] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:16:15 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.13.113] has joined #lisp 20:19:30 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:26:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@170-088.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:28:06 I'm currently looking into a problem with ECL and closure-common. 20:28:30 -!- mhd [~mhd@cpe-76-170-71-237.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:28:47 the ROD-READER runs function ROD on a string; this function has (cond ((stringp x) x)), so returns the same object. 20:29:37 now, cxml:internal-entdef has (value :type rod); rod is (vector 'rune), and rune is (vector 'character). 20:30:05 Does CL say that types that are "identical" (whatever that may mean) should be treated as identical? 20:30:42 Ie. is a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR wrong, if ":type rod" but the argument is a (simple-)string? 20:34:10 mhd [~mhd@cpe-76-170-71-237.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:25 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-chkuxxoobtlrtcyv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-36-216.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-245-28.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:34 chameco [~chameco@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:58 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-39-26.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:24 -!- Bike is now known as Guest65213 20:43:00 -!- Karl_Dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D8BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:51 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.254] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:49:29 -!- mordocai` [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:48 -!- hrs [~textual@199.47.74.43] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:50:16 ckoch786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 20:51:48 -!- sword [~sword@2601:7:1900:f4:e2cb:4eff:fef7:a13] has left #lisp 20:52:52 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:49a2:fef7:12e8:dae2] has quit [Quit: EvW] 20:55:29 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:22 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b74a9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:57:56 -!- chameco [~chameco@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:58:24 Malice [~Malice@94-229-220-135.static.espol.com.pl] has joined #lisp 20:59:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:37 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-211-228-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:39 Hey guys, I have two questions... First is: why exactly is Lisp described as powerful language(is it only because of macros?). Second one is: I know that if I ask "What can you do with Lisp?" the answer would be "Anything you want". So I want to ask it the other way: I know that you can do "anything you want" in C(well, almost; but only small amount of tasks requires assembly). The question is: is there something in C, that you can't do i 21:00:39 n Lisp? 21:00:46 in Lisp* 21:02:14 Macros are pretty nice. 21:02:48 In C you can find a supportive runtime already installed on most systems. 21:03:21 -!- erry is now known as StaffCat 21:03:33 -!- StaffCat is now known as erry 21:04:00 Malice: That “anything you want” is the Turing tarpit. It’s equally true of any Turing complete language. The real question is how easily/directly can you do what you want, which is about “expressivity” which is a lot fuzzier, but there are various approaches to it, and none of them end up with “all languages are equally expressive”. 21:06:10 sellout: That would be partially answering my second question, but not quite. So is there anything in C that you can't do in Lisp? 21:06:34 Malice: I answered that in the first part – no, there is not. 21:07:12 sellout: Okay. Thanks. 21:07:38 Xach: So only macros? 21:07:48 -!- ronparke [~user@nat/cisco/x-vgjeoexumzisbdjp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:25 -!- ckoch786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:39 Malice: No many things are nice. Macros are one nice thing. 21:08:51 No many? "No, many" or "So many". Can't remember which I meant. 21:09:21 :) 21:09:45 Garbage collection is nice. First-class functions are nice. A character type is nice. The condition system is nice. A readable standard is nice. CLOS is nice. 21:09:59 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-248-225.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:59 Fare [~fare@172.56.19.48] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 Bignums and ratios are pretty sweet. 21:11:58 That's true. Ratios are really nice thing 21:13:16 a distinct character type is better than just integers, but I think it would be much simpler if characters were strings of length one 21:13:44 fe[nl]ix, they are designators for same 21:14:14 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-248-225.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:45 The character/string api in CL is pretty poor, the authors neglected to properly predict what would be required by the worldwide character encoding a decade or two later. 21:15:34 so you have problems like that char-upcase/char-downcase is actually a nonsensical operation. 21:16:01 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:02 it works great on ASCII 21:17:22 which is what is needed for case-converting identifiers. 21:17:57 But identifiers can contain non-ascii these days. 21:18:21 Can you get a class name in an :initform? 21:21:27 Is there any language aside from lisps that offer restarts? 21:21:28 Xach: the C standard is readable? 21:21:42 -!- Fare [~fare@172.56.19.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:22:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:56 chirpsalot: I don't know. I didn't have that impression last time I checked. 21:24:26 Xach: it's really not that bad. The main issue, I suppose, is that half the things are left to the implementation to define. 21:26:46 Fare [~fare@172.56.19.48] has joined #lisp 21:27:17 Fare: only for a small number of standard functions 21:28:01 -!- Guest65213 is now known as Bike 21:28:58 foom: do you mean that there could be a better -upcase or just that the core idea is unreasonable. 21:29:03 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:8cd0:bebe:8b71:fd1] has joined #lisp 21:29:08 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:29:15 Bike: I mean that you can't do it on a character, it has to be on a string. 21:29:18 nisstyre [~yourstrul@c-74-114-78-210.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 21:29:24 -!- nisstyre [~yourstrul@c-74-114-78-210.netflash.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:29:24 nisstyre [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:29:56 foom: oh, to be sensible, you mean. 21:30:07 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 21:30:29 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:46 ivan4th [~user@83.149.9.213] has joined #lisp 21:30:56 Fare: e.g. (char-name "a") 21:31:22 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:11 -!- jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:33:01 dandersen [~Dan@unaffiliated/dandersen] has joined #lisp 21:33:52 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@ip-64-134-142-77.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:59 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:25 -!- Fare [~fare@172.56.19.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:43 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:32 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:35:50 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 21:35:54 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-248-225.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:37:25 Also you need to have some sort of way of saying how you want it upcased; depending on the language, the uppercase of a character can be different 21:38:03 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 only turkish. 21:38:28 Shinmera: Factor has restarts built-in. You can also add a restarts/condition system to other languages as a library (I wrote one for JavaScript) 21:38:48 (the amount of trouble that turkish special case causes is quite remarkable...) 21:38:49 after reading about burmese unicode i was left thinking that uppercasing isn't even possible 21:39:06 foom: is that really the only exception? Even in non-latin alphabets? I thought various arabic-script using languages did it differently too? 21:39:06 sykopomp: Ah, nice 21:39:33 jasom: well, it's the only special case that unicode knows about. 21:39:36 Shinmera: as long as you can have closures and non-local exits, I think you're covered, and the question is more about whether you can make the API sane. :) 21:39:37 Sorting strings lexicographically is also problematic 21:39:54 foom: good to know; I never inspected those tables that closely, I just import them and use them 21:40:16 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:40 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:10 Shinmera: interestingly enough, I don't think Factor actually provides a clear API for invoking restarts programatically. I think you're basically just meant to use their restarts in the debugger (though they're continuations so you can just grab them somehow and invoke them, I think) 21:41:37 sykopomp: oh, that's good to know. somebody was trying to figure out factor restarts and i didn't know what to tell them 21:41:54 sykopomp: I've just never encountered it anywhere outside of CL and it's a tremendously useful feature. 21:42:01 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 21:42:11 Shinmera: and a nice thing Factor does is that the main API for setting up restarts is cooked right into its signaling functions -- so imagine if you merged CL:ERROR with CL:RESTART-CASE into a single call. 21:43:05 that's something I might write as a util library next time I do a CL project, because it totally makes sense to me to merge those (but leave restart-case available for its added flexibility) 21:43:35 the thing where restart-case looks for literal error calls is so ridiculously ugly 21:46:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:25 In other things; Would it be ok for me to log this channel to a (through a web interface) publicly query-able database? I know there are already public file logs out, but I'd like to have something easier to query. 21:49:44 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p57A25117.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:50:05 yrk [~user@c-71-235-189-64.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 -!- yrk [~user@c-71-235-189-64.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:50:31 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 21:51:46 ivan4th` [~user@sctech.ru] has joined #lisp 21:51:47 -!- ivan4th [~user@83.149.9.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:12 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 21:53:11 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 pnpuff [~f@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-31-174-194-235.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:24 -!- pnpuff [~f@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:55:38 nand1` 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