00:00:17 What am I doing wrong? (merge-pathnames #p"/a/b/" #p"./c/d/") --> #p"/a/b/" 00:00:24 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@220.Red-79-151-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:51 *drmeister* takes back some of the nice things he said about pathnames and feels a strong sense of deja-vu 00:01:01 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFFB99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:04:09 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 00:06:06 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:06:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:38 -!- KarlDscc [~localhost@p5DD9E251.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:07:01 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:08:01 frx [~a@78-1-152-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:08:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:31 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:27 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:47 Lost connection there for a moment - if someone responded to my plaintive cry for help - could you repost it? 00:10:01 drmeister: merge-pathnames is not commutative. 00:10:42 drmeister, uiop:subpathname or uiop:merge-pathnames* are best 00:10:52 anything else has bad corner cases 00:11:16 pjb: I understand everyone of those words - but not your meaning. 00:11:43 Fare: You are really making me wish I had Quicklisp or asdf working. Is there a vanilla CL way of doing it? 00:11:55 (merge-pathnames absolute relative) is supposed to work better than (merge-pathnames relative absolute), because the latter gets its host and device from the wrong pathname. 00:12:01 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:23 (merge-pathnames #p"./c/d/" #p"/a/b/") --> #P"/a/b/c/d/" or equivalent for all the implementations I have on this linux system. 00:12:33 even though the standard suggests the latter, since the absolute one is supposed to provide the defaults. 00:12:38 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:12:55 pjb: linux systems don't usually exhibit host and device horrors on common pathnames 00:12:58 No, the standard is clear about it: it's the default one that provides the defaults!!! 00:13:07 but then you try (shudder) logical pathnames, or URL pathnames... 00:13:07 Please, don't be dumb. 00:13:08 What amazes me is something as explicit and clear as: (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute "a" "b")) (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "c" "d"))) doesn't do the right thing. 00:13:25 And that's SBCL. 00:13:28 drmeister: it does perfectly the right things. 00:13:42 oh right 00:13:46 that doesn't work 00:13:47 It's not called merge directories, it's called merge-pathnames, and a pathnames also has a host a device, a name a type and a version. 00:14:03 Fare: https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix/commit/7f95c7 00:14:23 BlackWabi [~wabi@c83-191-78-163.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 00:14:57 well, what does work is: (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :host (pathname-host absolute) :device (pathname-device absolute) :defaults relative) absolute) 00:15:20 Ahh, register-system-packages is part of asdf-package-system. i was wrong to be mad that it wasn't documented in asdf. 00:15:21 Also, there's some specification of pathnames, notably logical pathnames. It would be better to make implementors enforce them. 00:16:20 Xach: it's new and not documented in asdf.texinfo 00:16:40 Is it part of asdf, or is it an extension provided by a separate thing? 00:16:46 It is not in asdf.lisp. 00:17:17 it is part of an asdf extension for now, but next (imminent, promised!) release 3.1.1 will include it. 00:17:22 Ok, I'm reading merge-pathnames again. I see. 00:17:50 3.0.x loads the .asd file once per subsystem. 3.1.1 will load it only once if not modified. 00:18:46 drmeister: but really, uiop:merge-pathnames* is the portable thing. 00:20:44 Xach: nyef and drewc convinced me that their quick-build style was a superior way of writing CL code, so I added support to asdf as an extension that is about the same size as quick-build itself, except it handles transitive dependencies correctly, like asdf3. 00:21:13 Fare: But I would have to put time into getting the uiop library to work and portability is not something I'm worried about at the moment because I'm using this to write a C++ refactoring program that uses so much non-portable stuff it would make your hair curl. 00:21:54 guiambros [~guiambros@pool-108-54-164-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:01 *drewc* <3's asdf-package-system 00:22:44 Fantastic. 00:25:03 I can see a path to automatically creating a system for generating CFFI linkages for all of these C++ libraries that I've exposed in my system but it's going to require this C++ refactoring library that I'm writing to do it. 00:25:11 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 00:25:13 ... At some point, someone is going to write some software and call it quick-hide-the-bodies. 00:25:54 Fare: Thank you for that (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :host (pathname-host absolute) :device (pathname-device absolute) :defaults relative) absolute) - that's what I was looking for. 00:26:18 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 00:27:44 ... I still don't understand the whole "transitive dependency" thing. 00:27:53 drmeister, no problem. That said, if you want to play nice, you might provide nice implementations for things in uiop/filesystem and uiop/run-program 00:28:15 Either I'm handling it correctly without realizing it, or it otherwise doesn't cause me problems. 00:28:33 a working directory-files, subdirectories would be nice. Some way to discriminate files, directories and symlinks even better. 00:28:49 nyef: you have the same issue as ASDF2. 00:29:11 Which is still unenlightening to me. 00:29:41 and this issue doesn't show up if you are either (1) compiling from scratch, or (2) always modifying clients when you modify a macro in semantically incompatible ways. 00:30:06 Ah! 00:30:39 and (3) always modifying source code after it was compiled with an error 00:31:05 Okay (3) occasionally bites me, but that's from not killing the fasl. 00:31:07 you can imagine how these tend to be satisfied when working in the small, but not so when working in the large with tens of hackers. 00:31:21 asdf2 handled 3 by compliing to a temp file 00:31:27 Fare: By play nice do you mean provide users with those libraries? - I plan to support asdf and quicklisp. Or "play nice" as in give back something to the Common Lisp community? - For that I'm going to open source this thing and it will be yet-another-implementation-of-common-lisp with the extra bonus of interfacing with C++ and LLVM. 00:31:43 asdf3 handles 1 and 2 by correctly propagating timestamp info from dependencies to dependents 00:32:12 drmeister, play nice I mean also make it so that asdf doesn't need to do horrors to implement all these functions with a #+ for each implementatoin 00:32:53 uiop/filesystem was a horror to write, and still has bugs that have no portable solutions, because the spec is so at odds with filesystem reality at times 00:33:02 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:33:03 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 00:33:13 anything related to directory is hopelessly broken 00:33:17 wildcard characters, too 00:33:39 Fare: Ah! Is there good support in uiop for ECL? Or is it the other way around: good support for uiop in ECL? 00:33:56 in other words — if you can do your own porting of uiop (and thus asdf), that would be great. I'm sure rpgoldman will accept your patches. 00:34:06 yes, ECL is very well supported. 00:34:39 Are you reusing the ECL linking model (as opposed to other lisps' loading and image dumping model)? 00:34:55 Great - then I leverage that - my system is ECL++ 00:35:05 ECL gave us asdf-bundle, and in return, I've always done my best to support them back. 00:35:25 though it's ugly at times 00:35:54 so watch for #+ecl, #-ecl, and any occurrence of ecl in the source code... that's where you'll need to extend uiop and asdf. 00:36:26 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:6cb1:4e2d:2c78:6ff0] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:36:37 I try and make my system look like ECL as much as possible - I use the #+ecl feature. 00:36:48 if you can pass the asdf self-test suite, you're good 00:37:15 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:6cb1:4e2d:2c78:6ff0] has joined #lisp 00:37:16 ``The "source files" for a given node are the actual source file for that node and the fasl files for all of its immediate dependencies. If any of the "source files" are newer than the fasl (or the fasl doesn't exist) then we need to rebuild the fasl.'' -- From the quick-build source. 00:37:46 I don't recommend using the #+ecl feature, unless you either intend to remain bug-compatible with any future release, or intend to kill it so well that no one will bother resurrecting the ecl code base. 00:38:07 It then goes on to mention that nodes are processed in dependency order, so this should be sufficient aside from clock-skew issues. 00:38:08 Cool. I'm still missing several dozen CL functions so I don't want to even try getting external stuff that I don't need for my work working; bit-XXX functions and stuff like that. 00:38:36 Is there some subtlety (even at the lead-pipe-like level of subtle) that I missed here? 00:38:41 nyef: maybe quick-build does it correctly, then. — and so congratulations. 00:39:01 naisy [~naisy@i125-205-220-173.s41.a034.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:39:41 Fare: I'm probably bug-compatible with ECL because I use their Common Lisp code. 00:39:54 Hrm. And there's a form here... (when (or failure-p warnings-p) (ignore-errors (delete-file output-truename))). 00:40:11 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:27 -!- naisy [~naisy@i125-205-220-173.s41.a034.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Quit: ] 00:46:23 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:49:34 Fare - R. asdf-package-system  how can you possible infer dependences from a defpackage form? 00:50:32 bhyde: Register a common package-name prefix with a directory, then treat slash in the package name as a pathname component separator, and the last part of the package name as the filename. 00:50:41 (Sans extension, of course.) 00:51:14 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:52:10 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:52:16 so (a) the defpackage form is insufficent since something else needed to do thie prefix registration, and (b) i still don't know what in the defpackage is declaring the dependency 00:52:34 The :USE and :IMPORT-FROM clauses. 00:53:07 so somebody decided that if I depend on a system I need to use or import from it? 00:53:48 For this style? Yes. You can always :import-from with no symbols, after all. 00:54:32 in this scheme there is _no_ declare-system form at all? 00:55:25 Depends on the implementation. 00:55:31 huh? 00:55:44 bhyde: the prefix registration in asdf is done by the first component of the foo/bar/baz path 00:55:57 foo.asd will have a system of class package-system, and voila! 00:56:01 Well, I don't know how ASDF does it (Fare?) but in quick-build there's a defparameter with the prefix mappings. 00:56:54 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-63-65.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:27 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:43 so if I have a directory tree of code I've been gifted how to I discover what systems it defines? 00:58:29 *bhyde* didn't understand anything that Fare just said, LOL 00:59:02 Hunh. So the first segment of the package-name, before the first slash, is taken as a system name for the system-definition search? 00:59:13 yup 00:59:28 that's a new use for a system's primary-name 00:59:28 What if it names something other than a package-system system? 00:59:33 mwnaylor [~user@altoona-69-72-75-250.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:37 then you lose 00:59:44 *bhyde* thinks the ability to define a system in a singe file is a win, but also likes things to be declarative and discoverable 00:59:48 if won't find your system, and issue an error 00:59:55 -!- mwnaylor [~user@altoona-69-72-75-250.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net] has left #lisp 01:00:07 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:00:08 bhyde: that's completely declarative and discoverable 01:00:38 unless it's specially defined as a foo/bar/baz system in foo.asd — that's allowed 01:00:47 (defsystem foo/bar/baz ...) 01:01:19 Is there any way to tell emacs to send an s-exp using LISP-COMPILE-DEFUN to a buffer other than *inferior-lisp* 01:02:18 *nyef* sees no LISP-COMPILE-DEFUN here. 01:02:45 Does anyone know how to get the source-code for an elisp function in emacs? 01:02:45 what's a lisp-compile-defun ? 01:02:46 do I have to load every file and look for a early occurig defpackage, parse them, and then conver them in the the info I would have currently get the defsystem? 01:02:54 Did you mean slime-compile-defun? 01:03:13 drmeister: C-h f might help 01:03:15 lisp-compile-defun is an elisp function in emacs. No, not slime - I'm using inferior-lisp 01:03:15 drmeister: C-h f funame RET C-x o TAB RET 01:03:31 drmeister: C-h f slime-compile-defun RET, then trigger the link to the source file. 01:03:35 gotta go 01:03:38 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:04:01 oh, now you want to take care of the family eh? 01:06:24 *bhyde* thinks one file/package is a bit of silly 01:06:25 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:43 Fare needs to pour more limestone in the basement. 01:06:56 *drmeister* is just kidding! I'm just continuing Fare's own joke. 01:08:21 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.88.154] has joined #lisp 01:09:05 bhyde: you never know what might catch on. 01:10:47 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-63-65.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 01:13:21 Xach: indeed, oauth for example 01:13:40 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 01:14:30 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:15:46 oauth1 wasn't that bad, afaik. OAuth 2 is ipsec of www, apparently 01:21:09 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@c-24-7-64-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:28:30 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:120b:2c09:19c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:04 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 01:31:01 -!- frx [~a@78-1-152-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:32:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:33:22 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:38 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:16 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 01:53:56 echo-area [~user@182.92.253.6] has joined #lisp 01:56:15 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:46 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:05 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:04:14 *standard-morning-yawn* 02:06:41 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:34c2:3048:d4f2:1a9a] has joined #lisp 02:06:41 The variable *STANDARD-MORNING-YAWN* is unbound. 02:06:53 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:31 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.253.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:15:58 echo-are` [~user@182.92.253.6] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 CADD_ [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 -!- CADD_ [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:17:32 -!- andreh [~andreh@189.27.23.92.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:18:19 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:35 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:21 askatasuna [~askatasun@111-223-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:33:13 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@111-223-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:33:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:07 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-24-60-1-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:24 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A13C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:45:42 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f66ccb.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:47:26 -!- eee-blt [U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:19 eee-blt [U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 02:48:41 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.41.243] has joined #lisp 02:49:07 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f68de6.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:52:51 -!- kanru` [~kanru@114-32-24-38.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:53:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.41.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:55:02 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ookmiqrvffmjhxro] has joined #lisp 02:56:30 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-24-60-1-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:51 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:03 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:57:05 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-24-60-1-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:41 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:13 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ookmiqrvffmjhxro] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:31 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:34 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-jzwbfbicfjpbxuyb] has joined #lisp 02:59:34 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-jzwbfbicfjpbxuyb] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:37 twixonz [~Thunderbi@213-21-93-144.customer.t3.se] has joined #lisp 03:01:15 harish [~harish@175.156.245.20] has joined #lisp 03:01:33 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.245.20] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:54 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-24-60-1-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:03:01 dzisentuboca [~CLIENTE04@187.153.59.178] has joined #lisp 03:04:50 Which known program are well written in Lisp that are hard to write in other languages? 03:06:20 lisp programs 03:07:22 Xach: Which one is perhaps the most well known? 03:07:30 I don't know, sorry. 03:08:12 I feel enlightened. 03:08:38 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:40 twixonz: maybe a repl as powerful as lisp can have 03:09:04 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 03:10:06 what insight will this question lead to? 03:10:56 none 03:11:32 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:11:51 *tali713* achieves enlightenment. 03:12:10 Maybe "Why should I bother with Lisp?" I bother with Lisp because it's got a bunch of features that I like that work together pretty well, and over time I've learned enough to explore and solve some problems with it quickly. 03:12:35 brandonz_ [~brandon@c-50-131-126-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:23 Xach: how about Scheme ? IIRC, chezscheme can produce native code fastly. And chezscheme has maken big money :) 03:13:57 zRecursive: I never tried it. 03:14:10 me too 03:14:41 it is proprieoty 03:15:49 http://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/1xdgkq/chez_scheme_90_by_cisco_system/ 03:16:52 Well-known uses for Scheme? Well, there's that chunk of windows networking code, that one huge malware botnet thing... 03:17:05 guiambros_ [~guiambros@pool-108-54-164-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:31 -!- vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:17:52 r0b2 [~robert@subtle/contributor/robgleeson] has joined #lisp 03:18:48 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:19:32 the montreal phone startup thing 03:19:47 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined #lisp 03:19:50 I had a nice dinner with the founder and now I can't remember the details, like the company or his name :( 03:20:03 -!- guiambros [~guiambros@pool-108-54-164-22.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:04 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:23 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:24 -!- r0b1 [~robert@subtle/contributor/robgleeson] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:20:52 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:24 ah yes, dominique boucher, nuecho 03:21:29 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:30 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 03:21:45 There were a few video games. Abuse, most of the early Naughty Dog games (before they got bought out by Sony)... 03:21:57 Anything written by Infocom. 03:22:09 And, of course, emacs. 03:22:34 emacs would be /very/ hard without elisp. 03:22:59 Infocom used scheme? I thought that they started with mdl, and then build their own language for commercial use. 03:23:03 It's just too bad that elisp is such a lousy lisp, and much elisp code is dreadful to customize. /-: 03:23:03 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 03:23:17 Yeah, I slipped away from scheme projects to lisp-generally projects. 03:23:29 meh. could be worse, at least elisp has lexical binding now. 03:23:49 The abuse guy wrote his own system, Naughty Dog wrote their own in Allegro, and so on. 03:23:55 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:36 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:00 ErrantEgo [~ErrantEgo@freenode/jester/errantego] has joined #lisp 03:26:26 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.202.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:27:08 s/propieoty/proprietary 03:27:25 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-24-60-1-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:31 any niggers here? 03:27:32 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:36 anybody here love niggers? 03:27:45 i just love niggers 03:27:57 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 03:27:57 what is that ? 03:28:00 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*CLIENTE04@187.153.59.* 03:28:04 -!- dzisentuboca [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (dzisentuboca) 03:28:17 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 03:28:41 bocaneri [~bocaneri_@about/linux/staff/sauvin] has joined #lisp 03:28:49 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:10 zymurgy [~zymurgy@li607-220.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:12 -!- ErrantEgo [~ErrantEgo@freenode/jester/errantego] has left #lisp 03:29:27 Banning nigger lovers? :) 03:30:50 ... 03:31:49 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-24-60-1-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:32:28 Oladon [~Oladon@c-98-245-40-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:59 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:33:40 -!- antonv [~user@93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:34:09 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:36:12 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 03:36:24 oxum [~oxum@122.164.198.185] has joined #lisp 03:36:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:38:35 I'm pulling a page with Drakma and then using cxml-stp to parse it... pre-parsing the UTF-8 shows up correctly, but after parsing it no longer displays properly (as if it's in the wrong encoding afterward) - any ideas? 03:40:09 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:05 How are you displaying it? 03:41:19 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:41:46 In a UTF-8-tested-and-approved SLIME 03:42:25 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 (SBCL) 03:43:09 I guess I'm not following. You got the content of the page as a string? It looks fine when you first get it? Then you process it and that string doesn't look right any more? Or some new string? 03:43:14 I can't find anything in the cxml-stp docs about encoding or setting the encoding 03:43:17 Ah, sorry 03:43:41 Yeah. So Drakma returns it as a string, and I try to parse it into an STP doc with cxml-stp 03:45:36 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.198.185] has quit [Quit: ...] 03:45:49 Oladon: You should generally see XML as binary, and not text. Force binary when you retrieve XML using Drakma and parse it as a binary stream. That'll make things much more stable. 03:46:34 loke: Hmm... I'm not sure I follow. It's an HTML page, with charset-encoding declared correctly and all 03:46:57 I was still waiting to here where in the pipeline things were going wrong :~( 03:47:02 Oladon: Oh, HTML? I though you were talking about parsing XML 03:47:08 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:36 Xach: Hmm... perhaps a code tidbit would help explain 03:47:41 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 I parse my HTML using closure-html. 03:48:06 -!- BlackWabi [~wabi@c83-191-78-163.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:48:38 That's what I'm using... cxml-stp is the builder 03:48:43 -!- ConstantineXVI [sxltrs@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:feae:8909] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.41.243] has joined #lisp 03:48:47 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:54 I see 03:49:14 Oladon: i just wonder on what data you are basing your "no longer displays properly" 03:49:24 Xach: Allow me to explain via examples :) 03:49:29 I have spent countless hours getting encoding and closure-html to work correctly in all cases. My use-case, however, is more complex because I'm parsing HTML emails. 03:49:34 (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings (ppcre:create-scanner ">.*? Red Hand") (drakma:http-request "http://paizo.com/campaigns/RedHandOfDoom/discussion" :connection-timeout nil)) 03:49:46 That's the tiny tidbit to pull the string directly from what Drakma returns 03:49:53 It produces: ">Nico´s Red Hand" 03:50:05 BlackWabi [~wabi@c83-191-78-163.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 03:50:40 that's what i see in my browser, weird apostrophe and all 03:50:46 Yes 03:50:51 That's what it should produce, that's correct output 03:51:07 ConstantineXVI [sxltrs@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:feae:8909] has joined #lisp 03:51:14 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:51:23 However, once you run it through closure-html's chtml:parse (with cxml-stp as the SAX builder), it produces: "Nico´s Red Hand of Doom" 03:51:45 WHAT produces that? 03:51:48 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 03:52:34 (chtml:parse (drakma:http-request ...) (cxml-stp:make-builder)) 03:52:45 frx [frx@93-141-20-205.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:53:09 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.41.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:53:52 Oladon: Works fine for me when I parse it into a DOM tree 03:54:02 (let ((x (drakma:http-request "http://paizo.com/campaigns/RedHandOfDoom/discussion" :connection-timeout nil))) 03:54:02 (closure-html:parse x (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))) 03:54:21 That results in a DOM tree with properly encoded content 03:54:40 First thing that comes to mind is to do a binary fetch, to check the encoding reported in the header, look for one in the document, examine the binary form to see what encoding it actually is, check what SBCL thinks the default external format is... 03:55:03 If the document says one thing and the header another, that could easily cause problems. 03:55:03 loke: hrm 03:55:21 nyef: Drakma returns the correct string, it's not an issue in retrieval 03:55:35 And if it works on one person's machine but not another, I'd look at either default formats or software versions. 03:55:56 Umm... Again, you DON'T KNOW THAT. 03:56:00 ... 03:56:04 Read up, please. 03:56:40 loke: Ugh, I dread rewriting all the filtering and node-searching stuff for a new library, but it might be easier than trying to figure out what's going on with cxml-stp 03:57:09 No, my point is that just because you're getting the right answer doesn't necessarily mean that retrieval is not at issue. 03:57:12 -!- Acherontius [~user@107-214-93-11.lightspeed.chtnsc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:08 Oladon: I fond node-searching to be almost enjoyable when using DOM and Xpath 03:58:42 loke: I believe you, it's just that I've already coded a bunch around the other method :P 03:58:43 xoath is really what makes it acceptable. 03:58:48 xpath even 03:59:29 I call this function, a lot. :-) https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gdata/blob/master/src/xml-misc.lisp#L118 04:00:31 Hrm. 04:01:41 loke: Thanks... I guess I'll look into switching everything to DOM. I appreciate your help :) 04:03:35 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:41 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 04:08:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:08:55 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09:41 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:42 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:45 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:10:42 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 04:12:20 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:51 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 04:18:22 nisstyre [~yours@74.114.77.254] has joined #lisp 04:18:45 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 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[Quit: Leaving] 05:32:10 Nisstyre-laptop [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:34:40 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 05:35:44 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 05:36:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:37:08 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:38:49 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:40 ggole [~ggole@203.59.241.100] has joined #lisp 05:40:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:40:42 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 05:40:45 benzrf [~benzrf@cpe-184-153-153-175.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:46 hey 05:40:58 why is regular quoting ever preferable to quasiquoting? 05:41:19 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.253.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:14 `(,a) :) 05:42:22 '(,a) 05:42:50 But more generally, the principle of least power, I guess. 05:43:24 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:43:31 the latter gives: 05:43:33 *** - READ: comma is illegal outside of backquote 05:43:49 so regular quoting is literally just quasiquoting with commas disabled 05:44:54 kinda sorta? 05:45:14 w/e its not super important 05:45:16 thanks anyway 05:45:16 Hmm, '`(,a), I guess. 05:45:17 prim [~otaku@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 05:45:19 -!- benzrf [~benzrf@cpe-184-153-153-175.maine.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:45:51 Ah, '`(,a) vs ``(,a) that should have been. 05:46:59 -!- prim [~otaku@unaffiliated/prim] has left #lisp 05:47:46 prim [~otaku@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 05:54:47 jewel [~jewel@105-236-88-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:57:50 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:58:20 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:13 -!- 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[~nyef@pool-64-222-145-64.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:39 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:49:24 loke_erc [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:9d3:b1d2:4d9d:ae23] has joined #lisp 12:49:36 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 12:50:22 -!- ndrei [~avo@LPoitiers-156-84-20-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:52:29 minion: memo for francogrex ocilib seems to be a wrapper around oci library so you need something like (cffi:define-foreign-library oracle-oci (:windows (:or "ocixe.dll" "oci.dll")) (t (:default "libclntsh"))) and maybe call cffi:load-foreign-library too with the right search-path 12:52:29 memo for francogrex ocilib seems to be a wrapper around oci library so you need something like (cffidefine-foreign-library oracle-oci (windows (or "ocixe.dll" "oci.dll")) (t (default "libclntsh"))) and maybe call cffiload-foreign-library too with the right search-path: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20francogrex%20ocilib%20seems%20to%20be%20a%20wrapper%20around%20oci%20library%20so%20you%20need%20something 12:52:38 antonv [~user@93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 12:52:50 ndrei [~avo@LPoitiers-156-84-20-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:53:08 hmm, what was the syntax for minion memo exactly? 12:53:10 hlavaty: You forgot the colon after francogrex. 12:53:16 ah thanks 12:53:23 minion: memo for francogrex: ocilib seems to be a wrapper around oci library so you need something like (cffi:define-foreign-library oracle-oci (:windows (:or "ocixe.dll" "oci.dll")) (t (:default "libclntsh"))) and maybe call cffi:load-foreign-library too with the right search-path 12:53:23 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 12:54:40 yangfinder [~yang@180.117.104.67] has joined #lisp 12:55:32 dim: i know what the problem with your cl-olefs is now but havent got a fix yet 12:56:20 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:08 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:01:04 -!- yangfinder [~yang@180.117.104.67] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:02:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:53 -!- ndrei [~avo@LPoitiers-156-84-20-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:11:39 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-187-173.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:13:07 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9E251.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:31 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:16:48 would it be taboo to ask what folks think of Racket? 13:17:27 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:30 and whether there's an existing way of getting racket to talk to slime 13:17:38 because DrRacket is a bit too windows-y for my tastes 13:18:06 here we go... http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Emacs.html 13:18:13 thanks #lisp! :D 13:18:52 minion: seen fe[nl]ix 13:18:52 seen fe[nl]ix: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/seen%20fe[nl]ix?source" contains illegal character #\[ at position 30.. 13:19:07 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:01 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:20:05 Adlai: you summoned me ? 13:20:17 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.95] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:22:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 13:23:59 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-74-175.w90-35.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:25:55 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:26:02 marcoecc [~user@ec2-184-73-245-68.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:13 Adlai: as much as I know, racket is interesting. I instantly liked Felleisen when I met him, he has the right mindset. and racket properly focuses on the malleability of the environment instead of trying to synthesize The One and Best Language Of Them All. 13:27:00 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:03 vaporatorius [~vaporator@220.Red-79-151-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:56 -!- sirdancealot [~koo5@194.228.11.172] has quit [Quit: Ragequit] 13:31:36 sirdancealot [~koo5@194.228.11.172] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:03 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 13:39:04 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:46:33 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:52:03 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:52:18 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 13:58:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:10 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 13:59:18 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:17 fisxoj [~fisxoj@dyn-129-97-41-194.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:03:07 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:23 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:04:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:07:16 -!- BlackWabi [~wabi@c83-191-78-163.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:07:23 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-75-224-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:29 zymurgy [~zymurgy@li607-220.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:27 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:52 nha [~prefect@koln-4db4fb6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:11 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:20:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:23:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:26:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:56 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:01 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:30 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:34 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:02 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:33:03 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:33:57 is there possibility to choose always one restart (without hanging in debugger?) 14:34:11 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:12 like attempt-resync for read-char 14:34:55 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 14:35:22 Yes, you handler-bind the condition in question and invoke-restart from within the handler. 14:36:22 nyef: thanks 14:37:48 (handler-bind ((out-of-coffee-error (lambda (condition) (ignore condition) (make-more-coffee) (invoke-restart 'try-again)))) (get-a-cup-of-coffee)) 14:38:04 Something like that, at least. 14:38:50 -!- nshadow [~nightshad@69.17.255.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:39:01 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:40:12 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:18 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 14:41:11 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-74-175.w90-35.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:42:54 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:15 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:47:48 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:49:46 ok, ive figured it out - that was very helpful, thanks again 14:49:58 *(declare (ignore condition)) 14:50:08 pierre1__ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 14:50:22 jackdaniel: that won't pick a restart, though 14:50:55 attila_lendvai: yeah it's interesting... unfortunately, my student's professor requires so much commenting in their programs that they'd be shorter in C++ 14:51:24 they need to "statically" define all their data types in comments 14:51:44 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:53:59 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:56:04 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:57:46 calpo [~calpo@14.139.221.18] has joined #lisp 14:59:14 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 14:59:51 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:02:15 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:06:10 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:06:13 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:25 machindo [~machindo@cpc3-stav5-0-0-cust131.17-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:52 *attila_lendvai* shakes head... but then he wouldn't go anywhere near 99% of the current IT universities either. 15:07:17 If I have two objects of the same class and I want to know if they're equal, should I just define a function or is there a away to hook into equal? 15:08:00 Petit_Dejeuner_: there is not a way to hook into equal. 15:08:17 You might consider making a generic function for whatever kind of equality you're interested in. 15:08:20 You could define a generic function, or use one of the existing ones like MW-EQUIV. 15:08:23 Petit_Dejeuner_: no way to hook into equal. there's the metacopy project that iirc defines a protocol, but it's nothing fancy. you can just roll your own defgeneric... 15:11:01 Alright thanks. I'll probably just use a generic function. 15:11:01 -!- moto9 [~ml@p3E9E0202.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:11:13 segv- [~mb@95-91-242-53-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:34 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@195.180.2.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:40 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:12:55 Remember to think carefully about what this form of equality means. :) 15:14:07 Do you mean like eq versus equal? 15:14:25 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:14:45 stepnem_ [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has joined #lisp 15:14:55 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 15:15:56 -!- machindo [~machindo@cpc3-stav5-0-0-cust131.17-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:16:22 machindo [~machindo@cpc3-stav5-0-0-cust131.17-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:39 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.90.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:17:42 _paul0 [~paul0@177.96.175.89] has joined #lisp 15:19:29 Sure, and equals, and char=, and eql, and ... 15:19:41 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:20:02 Much as with copy, there are many definitions of equality, and for much the same reasons. 15:20:02 -!- sellout [~Adium@174-16-117-96.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:24:15 moto9 [~ml@p3E9E1401.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:07 -!- antonv [~user@93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:11 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:45 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 -!- Kiryx [~Kiryx@85-202-48-130.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:33:30 Watcher7 [~w@108.216.22.50] has joined #lisp 15:33:35 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:20 -!- smull_ 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17:39:40 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-233-226-189-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:40:05 -!- ggherdov [sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uzagpzwtwpratfit] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:40:27 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:27 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:40:27 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 17:40:34 urandom__ [~user@ip-95-222-45-99.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 -!- rk[fishing] is now known as rk[] 17:41:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:43:59 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mzigpekuciikqgne] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:45:32 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 Petit_Dejeuner_: Have a look at: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 17:49:20 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-25-131.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:40 "All men may be created EQUAL, but they aren't all EQL." 17:50:46 "All men may be /created/ EQUAL, but they're mutable structures." 17:50:55 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 17:51:47 "No men are EQL unless they're real CHARACTERS" 17:51:51 aventadorr [~aventador@95-91-252-116-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:57 *rimshot* 17:52:43 -!- aventadorr [~aventador@95-91-252-116-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 17:52:50 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:52:51 ggherdov [sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mesncqbcffsqaomb] has joined #lisp 17:54:04 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC458B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:11 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:54:55 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:30 But in this universe, all men are created different. Even homozygotes are different (and now can be differentiated by genetic test, to solve crimes). 17:57:30 Mmm. So they're neither EQ (same identity) nor EQL. 17:57:55 But one of the founding principles of the United States is that they are created EQUAL. 17:58:06 maybe they intended EQUALP 17:58:19 Men are equal before law, meaning that xHumanity, law(x). 17:59:26 vs. p,law1,law2 xHumanity, p(x)law1(x)  ¬p(x)law2(x)  law1law2 17:59:30 vs. p,law1,law2 xHumanity, p(x)law1(x)  ¬p(x)law2(x)  law1law2 17:59:43 oops, only conjuctions... :-) 18:00:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@140.142.25.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:13 Now, of course, the problem may be that inside law(x) there may be some conditions and alteratives. But at least, in civilized countries, the law is public and patched publicly, so it can be avoided, or limited to semantically valid compensations. 18:01:59 mksan [~fabian@1-1-10-33a.rny.sth.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:00 (and yes, I exclude the USA from civilized countries, for its secret laws). 18:02:16 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:01 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:10:47 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:40 nichtdiebohne [~nichtdieb@kons-4d03e178.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:37 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:30 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:42 -!- mal___ [mal@2001:41d0:1:66c4::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:32:17 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:34:10 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 gb: ping 18:37:29 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 18:37:53 does anybody know how to get shift working in clx? I'd need it for hemlock. 18:38:45 How do you mean "get shift working"? 18:39:18 There's a bunch of modifier bits passed with most input events, does that count? 18:41:44 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:44:08 vibs29 [~zorro@85.255.235.122] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 -!- vibs29 [~zorro@85.255.235.122] has left #lisp 18:44:23 vibs29 [~zorro@85.255.235.122] has joined #lisp 18:45:30 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:37 sellout-1 [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:59 przl [~przlrkt@p57922931.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:59 zimmermann [~user@178-24-50-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:10 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 18:48:16 -!- zimmermann [~user@178-24-50-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 18:48:23 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:48:49 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:01 ck`` [~user@aftr-37-24-147-0.unity-media.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:12 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:53:25 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:56:33 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 18:58:48 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.222] has joined #lisp 18:59:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:00:14 nyef: all I can say is that shift doesn't work. Ie. Shift+A inserts "a". 19:00:22 KarlDscc [~localhost@p5DD9C0C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:42 BlackWabi [~wabi@194.47.219.219] has joined #lisp 19:03:09 I found (define-clx-modifier (xlib:make-state-mask :shift) "Shift") 19:03:13 Ah. Yeah, you need to do something clever with the actual event stuff after that. 19:03:21 ckoch786 [~ckoch786@ne102611l.eng.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 19:03:31 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:04:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:27 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9E251.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:36 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:09:25 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:10:16 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:41 logand`` [~user@f053069053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:45 What is the reason that a class would not yet be finalized and why do I sometimes need to call cl-mop:ensure-finalized? (eg: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/collectors/commit/1a9d63f304e45df8760a0a780377a350be439e58) If LISP is going to throw a finalization error, but calling ensure would fix it, whats the reason to fire the error instead of just ensure-finalized? 19:14:08 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:14:16 -!- KarlDscc [~localhost@p5DD9C0C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:28 -!- logand` [~user@g226038224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:14:54 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:09 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:18:11 -!- ck`` [~user@aftr-37-24-147-0.unity-media.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:46 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-50-188-34-170.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:07 Codynyx [~cody@c-50-188-34-170.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:30 bobbysmith007: I assume finalizing a class is costly. Perhaps you don't want to do it gratuituously. 19:22:25 pjb: ok, sounds reasonable, just seems like if now is the time to throw errors, now might also be the time to finalize, but I guess I am not an implementer so what do I know 19:23:15 bobbysmith007: maybe you didn't want it finalized yet; is there a restart to finalize it for you? 19:23:31 That seems like the right solution 19:24:05 jasom: I dont know, I rarely see the error (and most recently it is in an implementation I dont run). This is mostly a curiosity satisfaction question. 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[~hiroaki@p5DC6045E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:56 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-149-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:53:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:10 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC6045E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:45 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:54 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:58:06 arigoins [~ari@174-28-35-120.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:11 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:59:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:21 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:20 MITStudent [~MITStuden@bas2-toronto43-845435453.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:00:25 Hello. 21:00:49 hi 21:00:59 I am about to start learning LISP through SICP (from what I have read, it's a really good book). 21:01:25 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:01:29 You think SICP is okay for me to read? I have experience in programming in a few other languages. 21:01:49 <_death> sure 21:01:53 SICP is for learning how to think about programming, and as a side-effect you will learn (one dialect of) scheme. 21:02:05 It is a good book. The lessons you learn will apply elsewhere. 21:02:19 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:28 I don't want to go through it for learning LISP. 21:02:37 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 21:02:49 But to understand the fundamentals of computation and computer science (well, the authors didn't think it was a science). 21:03:03 In that sense, do you think it's good to go through? 21:03:09 yes 21:03:24 that is, in essence the drive of the book 21:03:44 Will it be a bit too difficult? I am hard-working and determined, but in terms of specific prerequisites? 21:03:59 <_death> why don't you give it a shot and see for yourself? 21:04:03 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:04:19 I have gone through the first chapter. 21:04:45 But I was wondering if anyone here knew of the prereqs in terms of math and prior-CS knowledge. 21:05:37 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:06:02 Nothing, really. 21:06:11 It was designed to introduce a new world from the ground up. 21:06:15 Oh 21:06:22 And is the information a bit outdated? 21:06:29 No. 21:06:34 That's great. 21:06:46 It's not as feasible to shock students with new stuff today as it was when the course was first designed. 21:06:50 And I've always wanted to learn LISP. 21:07:06 Would you recommend some computer hardware knowledge? 21:07:08 MITStudent: For future reference, there is nothing called LISP any more. 21:07:11 the particular programming language it uses is somewhat outdated, but it isn't the thrust of the book to teach that. It is to teach the structure & interpretation of computer programs in general 21:07:20 Is it Lisp? 21:07:28 it is a lisp. It is not Common Lisp 21:07:30 Or you want to refer to it by the dialect? 21:07:50 Because most people I know call most BASICs a BASIC 21:07:51 iirc, it has more relation to Scheme 21:08:08 Yeah 21:08:19 francogrex [~user@91.179.199.159] has joined #lisp 21:08:56 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:6cb1:4e2d:2c78:6ff0] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:09:09 And if you guys don't mind me going a bit off topic, does anyone know any good computer hardware book (logic circuits, memory, processors etc?) 21:09:22 )?* 21:09:29 I do mind. 21:09:36 The topic of this channel is Common Lisp. 21:09:43 Oh, Common Lisp? 21:09:47 Maybe someone can suggest something via private messages. 21:09:54 <_death> see topic :) 21:09:58 Then I shouldn't be talking about a book on Scheme anyways. 21:09:59 Sorry 21:10:14 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:510a:3390:c42e:6396] has joined #lisp 21:10:28 I got this whilst looking for a Lisp chat so... 21:10:41 it's a common and reasonable misunderstanding 21:12:14 Thanks a lot, bye. 21:12:30 -!- MITStudent [~MITStuden@bas2-toronto43-845435453.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: irc2go] 21:13:15 milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-18-137.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:13:23 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 21:13:43 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:120b:2c09:19c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:24 -!- lemex [~irc@106.67.59.49] has left #lisp 21:17:10 -!- arigoins [~ari@174-28-35-120.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:18:31 Twipply [~Twipply3@cpc17-mapp10-2-0-cust179.12-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:56 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:09 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:21:45 machindo [~machindo@host109-152-2-17.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 EchoR [~other@188.162.65.41] has joined #lisp 21:22:00 sdemarre [~serge@216.64-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:22:01 Hello. 21:22:20 hi 21:22:20 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 21:22:43 -!- machindo [~machindo@host109-152-2-17.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:51 drewc [~drewc@24.114.36.125] has joined #lisp 21:23:59 I have swank server created in terminal and running emacs with slime which is connected to that slime server, how can insert debug messages in code which will output messages into slime and not into terminal? 21:24:10 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:24:53 EchoR: does (format t "hello") print into terminal or into emacs swank repl? 21:25:42 EchoR: when this form is executed from slime? 21:25:49 you'll need to grab the swank output stream 21:25:54 EchoR: it's likely possible to pull the connection out of swank: somewhere, but also note that there could be multiple connections into it, so you'd probably want a broadcast output, not a single output 21:27:54 in the REPL: (defvar *slime-output* *standard-output*), elsewhere: (princ "message" *slime-output*) 21:29:32 gmcastil [~user@97-122-163-48.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:55 Thank you guys! 21:32:32 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:249d:1b76:ae3a:548f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:13 -!- MmeRobert [~cedric@ALille-257-1-138-126.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:33:25 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:34:04 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:8a0:c895:9ce2:c7a2] has joined #lisp 21:34:32 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:44 -!- add^_ [~user@m213-101-23-176.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:57 -!- gmcastil [~user@97-122-163-48.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:14 Davidbrcz [~david@140.142.25.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:30 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@99.Red-83-46-240.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 21:38:43 MmeRobert [~cedric@ALille-257-1-144-36.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:38:54 gmcastil [~user@97-122-163-48.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:25 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.83.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:40:38 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:12 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.199.159] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:42:14 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:43:20 -!- sirdancealot [~koo5@194.228.11.172] has quit [Quit: Ragequit] 21:43:27 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:44:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:44:41 Is it good practise to use :keywords in lists of attributes to something like '(:readable :writable :etcabe) instead of 'symbols like '(readable writable etcable)? 21:45:08 It depends on the context. 21:45:16 I'm doubting about it because :keywords are interning and can cause collisions. 21:45:19 EchoR: the advantage of doing that is that other code can interoperate with yours without importing more symbols to its package 21:45:34 Adlai: "That" what? 21:45:45 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:45:45 if you use non-keyword symbols, other code needs to import your symbols 21:46:04 Adlai: Ah, that sounds convincing. 21:46:08 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 There's not much issue with collisions in keyword symbols, since they always evaluate to the same thing 21:46:12 for example, when you call functions with keyword arguments, you don't need to import the names of the keyword parameters 21:46:50 pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:47:23 the collision will be if other code wants to add its own attributes 21:47:36 if the set of attributes is fixed, then keywords are the way to go 21:48:00 -!- pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:49:05 nyef: Hm, why should i export it if as dlowe pointed out it's always eval to same thing? So if i have :foo in one package and function ehich checks for :foo in attribute list then in any other package the function will work without exporting :foo. 21:49:20 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:45 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 21:50:33 you don't export keywords 21:50:51 :foo is "the symbol named "FOO" in the package named "KEYWORD"" 21:51:03 no exports/uses needed 21:52:06 Adlai* 21:52:06 anything that uses :foo, regardless of what package that occurs in, is using the same singleton object 21:52:42 singleton? 21:53:10 stassats: Yes, singleton. When you ask for a keyword named :foo, you always get the same object. 21:53:19 and it's lazily created on read 21:53:22 EchoR: let's say you use quoted symbols from your own package, rather than keywords. If you expect at some point to get this data from other code, then it'll need to intern your symbols in order to send them back to you. 21:53:30 If you use keywords, on the other hand, they're always available to everybody 21:53:35 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:12 The upside to not using keywords is that two different packages can define attributes that have the same print-name but are distinct objects. 21:54:20 clhs glossary/singleton 21:54:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#singleton 21:54:34 I see, thanks for an explanation. 21:54:35 White_Flame: that's an oxymoron 21:54:37 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:54:44 ah, forgot it has a lisp-specific definition 21:55:08 stassats: Okay, so the pattern-community definition of singleton, not the lisp definition. 21:55:26 nyef: even then, there's no class here 21:55:42 there are no classes required by singleton patterns 21:55:49 and what does mean, lazily created? it's created as swiftly as possible 21:55:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@216.64-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:56 stassats: Sure there is. BUILT-IN-CLASS SYMBOL. 21:56:01 -!- r0b2 [~robert@subtle/contributor/robgleeson] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56:10 nyef: it doesn't have one instance, does it? 21:56:14 stassats: it's created when the reader needs it 21:56:16 vwf [~user@cpe-71-66-118-0.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:26 as opposed to a pre-created list of keywords 21:56:30 it's interned, all symbols are interned upon reading 21:56:41 White_Flame: that's quite a specious way to use the term "lazy" 21:56:50 Okay, perhaps the appropriate pattern, then, is "flyweight"? 21:56:56 hahaha 21:57:02 right, I'm just listing the pattern-style features of singletons, and how they applied here 21:57:10 the only special thing about keywords is that when they are interned, they are automatically bound to itself and exported from keyword 21:57:30 the appropriate pattern is "don't be non-pedantic in #lisp" 21:57:30 seeing as that term might be more familiar to somebody who's learning lisp from elsewhere 21:57:37 -!- vwf is now known as efvfwp 21:57:37 <_death> EchoR: basically stassats gave you the right criterion given your question.. if the attribute set is fixed, use keywords 21:58:33 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:58:35 -!- efvfwp [~user@cpe-71-66-118-0.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:25 if the attribute set is fixed, use integers! 22:00:11 <_death> stassats: yes, that's why I said "given your question".. he asks whether to use keywords or non-keyword symbols 22:00:26 what advantages would integers have over keywords? 22:00:40 gwonvon [~user@cpe-71-66-118-0.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:34 White_Flame: set operations on integers are faster 22:02:02 preferably word-sized integers 22:02:03 <_death> White_Flame: they nice for bitbashing and interesting data structures 22:02:15 <_death> *they're.. 22:02:48 -!- mksan [~fabian@1-1-10-33a.rny.sth.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:03:06 fe[nl]ix: as in the set-difference et al operations? 22:03:42 stassats: I believe you mean fixnum sized integers ;) 22:03:49 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-95-6.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:50 you believe wrong 22:04:04 Why does "concatenate" uses non keyword symbol as second argument? As i understand non keywords cannot be checked for equality easily if they from different packages... 22:04:05 White_Flame: union, intersection, insertion, deletion and membership test 22:04:38 EchoR: it doesn't use symbols, it uses type specifiers 22:04:41 fe[nl]ix: interesting. Wouldn't eq tests be of equivalent speed regardless of int or symbols? 22:05:04 stassats: 'string is a symbol, no? 22:05:05 I don't recall any sorting requirement for those 22:05:16 s/int/fixnum/ 22:05:22 no, integers can compare 64 attributes at a time 22:05:32 or 32, if you wish 22:05:38 Oi, I recently learned that macros take destructuring lambda lists (from http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html), although not entirely sure to what the (foo) matches, I found an even stranger destructuring lambda list here. (https://github.com/sykopomp/conserv/blob/develop/src/event-loop.lisp#L17-L18). What is the purpose of matching nil? Is it just for syntax, as () is nil? 22:05:53 stassats: not with union/intersection/etc 22:06:35 PuercoPop: () matches an empty list 22:06:56 fe[nl]ix: But what is the purpose of matching a empty list? 22:07:04 EchoR: (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) is not a symbol 22:07:23 PuercoPop: to reserve that first argument of the macro for future flags 22:07:25 White_Flame: union: logior, intersection logand 22:07:39 will take less than one CPU cycle 22:07:47 stassats: fe[nl]ix was listing #'union, #'intersection, etc. 22:07:48 fe[nl]ix: ahh ok, makes sense. 22:07:53 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:08:00 wchun [~wchun@81-233-226-189-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 White_Flame: was he? 22:08:28 stassats: that is the wonder of ambiguity 22:08:31 -!- BlackWabi [~wabi@ip123-242.wireless.lu.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:44 you're probably confused as to how integers are used for attributes 22:08:57 you make many assumptions about others' confusion 22:09:26 the speaking style here seems to optimize for least conveyance within the speaker's understanding 22:09:56 that's just how you are behaving 22:10:14 White_Flame: I wasn't referring to those two functions, but the general nouns referring to set operations 22:10:21 the topics of bitmasks, lists of attributes, etc, were all overlapping here 22:10:31 BlackWabi [~wabi@194.47.219.219] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 fe[nl]ix: okay, thanks 22:12:18 <_death> White_Flame: are you familiar with bit-vector representation for sets? 22:13:02 sets of integers as flagged by bits offsetted by the integer value itself? yes 22:13:45 hence asking if what was being mentioned included set-difference, #'union, etc operations 22:14:06 -!- drewc [~drewc@24.114.36.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:21 <_death> no, sets of attributes, where each attribute is represented as a bit in a given position 22:14:37 yes, that's what I said, defining "attribute" as "integer" 22:14:45 <_death> *each attribute's membership 22:14:46 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:510a:3390:c42e:6396] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:57 i don't think there as any other way to interpret that 22:15:33 -!- _paul0 [~paul0@177.96.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:15:46 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:510a:3390:c42e:6396] has joined #lisp 22:16:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:58 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-85-127.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:17:17 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:8a0:c895:9ce2:c7a2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:01 _paul0 [~paul0@177.96.175.89] has joined #lisp 22:18:13 <_death> White_Flame: set-difference would be logandc2, union would be logior, etc. there's even a cute algorithm to enumerate sets of a fixed number of members 22:18:17 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:18:23 yes, I know 22:18:34 but that would obviously not be using #'set-difference etc 22:18:45 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:46 <_death> White_Flame: right 22:18:49 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@140.142.25.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:19:29 if the lisp cons-based set operations were in use, there'd be no performance difference between symbols and integers for representing attributes. One could optimize based on sorting, but not by using these standard functions. 22:19:56 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:48cc:58d5:6f54:a2d1] has joined #lisp 22:20:05 rsdoiel [~rsdoiel@2605:3c00:0:103:95a4:62cc:ffd5:12ae] has joined #lisp 22:20:13 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: goin ghome] 22:20:25 now, if the "Smart Enough" optimizer & type system understood that it could reduce that down to bit sets... but I wouldn't expect that 22:20:27 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:48cc:58d5:6f54:a2d1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:45 <_death> White_Flame: right.. so if only cons-based set operations were considered, there would indeed be no reason to use integers 22:21:47 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:18 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:57 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:19 -!- InvalidCo [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f824-20.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:28 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-219-15.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:36 InvalidCo [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f824-20.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:24:06 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:26:41 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:26:57 _death: there's POPCNT now 22:28:38 vibs29 [~zorro@host86-130-161-248.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:39 <_death> fe[nl]ix: that gives you the cardinality 22:29:14 <_death> fe[nl]ix: I'm talking about enumerating all the sets with a given cardinality, quickly 22:29:49 (loop for i to max ...)? 22:30:14 <_death> stassats: that enumerates all the sets in the universe of discourse 22:30:21 do tell, I'm curious 22:32:19 vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-7.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:25 <_death> fe[nl]ix: I don't remember the algorithm off-hand.. you can find it in Hacker's Delight's chapter 2.. it's by Bill Gosper :) 22:32:50 <_death> "snoob" function 22:32:55 How do you think what is the best representations for cubes in CL's structs? Upper left corner and bottom right conrer fields of point(x,y,z) type and one fields for height? 22:33:12 That really has nothing to do with CL, but on what you need to ask of it 22:33:22 and that's really a micro-optimization ,having worked with any graphical systems 22:33:31 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 22:33:41 one field* 22:33:55 you'll want both absolute & relative coordinates quite often, so which one you pick & which one you have to evaluate (or just store everything) really will have little bearing 22:34:20 just make sure you have accessors for top/left/bottom/right/width/height in full 22:34:42 erm, + the other dimension as well 22:35:24 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:35:54 btw, if you just have 2 corner points, that fully defines the axis-aligned cube. You don't need the 3rd scalar 22:36:11 -!- rsdoiel [~rsdoiel@2605:3c00:0:103:95a4:62cc:ffd5:12ae] has left #lisp 22:36:31 the 6 values in the 2 points gives you min/max for x/y/z 22:37:04 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 22:37:08 White_Flame: yeah because i can have upper left corner's Z greater than bottom right to represent cubes depth. 22:37:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@host81-153-177-174.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:00 but not sure if it's good decision rather that adding new field for depth 22:38:33 -!- EchoR [~other@188.162.65.41] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:38:43 and if it's truly a cube (equal length edges), you could whittle it down to 1 x/y/z point and an edge length 22:39:00 it depends if you're axis-aligned or not 22:41:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:42:55 amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:44:22 A point and a 3-vector for the diagonally-opposite point? 22:44:32 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-7.thefacebook.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:40 which is still 6 scalars 22:44:44 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 22:47:05 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-85-127.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 22:47:10 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.149] has joined #lisp 22:48:21 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 22:49:00 vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-7.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:44 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:01 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:02 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:04 vhost- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:08 -!- vhost- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:50:08 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 22:53:46 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-7.thefacebook.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:41 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 22:55:17 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:30 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 22:56:31 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.7.57] has joined #lisp 22:56:46 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:01 -!- Twipply [~Twipply3@cpc17-mapp10-2-0-cust179.12-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:05 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:01 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:d1b6:ed3a:22dc:29b1] has joined #lisp 23:02:41 -!- BlackWabi [~wabi@194.47.219.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:15 <_death> fe[nl]ix: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1959565 under "A Novel Application" 23:03:57 arigoins [~ari@174-28-35-120.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:36 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:38 Nisstyre-laptop [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:07:45 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 23:08:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:30 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:34 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:11:04 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has joined #lisp 23:11:12 -!- zz_karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:12:27 zz_karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:13:05 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 23:13:39 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:14:08 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.92.154.85] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:15:47 snits [~snits@75-167-3-97.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:27 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:37 MoALTz [~no@host81-153-177-174.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:16 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:08 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:19 bcoburn_ [~nialo@ool-18bc9419.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:53 2nd edition! 23:29:30 _death: thanks for the tip, I bought the book :) 23:30:42 -!- bcoburn_ is now known as bcoburn 23:31:48 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:120b:2c09:19c0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 23:32:02 -!- arigoins [~ari@174-28-35-120.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:55 n0n0 [~n0n0___@ssl-air2.ssl.berkeley.edu] has joined #lisp 23:33:08 -!- xenophon [~user@64.124.65.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:58 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 23:38:34 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-3-97.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:40:13 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:42 BlackWabi [~wabi@c83-191-78-163.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 23:43:59 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 23:45:56 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:23 impulse [~impulse@65.92.154.85] has joined #lisp 23:47:26 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZZ] 23:49:44 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.7.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:50:15 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:54 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:50 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:00 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:16 Abby26 [~Abby26@93.114.45.133] has joined #lisp 23:54:18 I give you some pictures. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos69 23:55:06 -!- Abby26 [~Abby26@93.114.45.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:34 ASau` [~user@p54AFE745.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:59:25 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]