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Replacing the vector to string representation. 01:44:40 Thank you 01:49:16 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 01:49:47 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:51:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:01:35 stanislav__ [~stanislav@bl16-78-182.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:04:15 -!- stanislav_ [~stanislav@bl21-66-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:30 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:03 -!- nialo [~nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:10:16 joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-70-187.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:09 nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:00 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih_] 02:22:02 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-70-187.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:27:01 -!- andreh [b18536be@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.177.133.54.190] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 02:28:37 andreh [bd1b0c88@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.189.27.12.136] has joined #lisp 02:35:24 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:36:01 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@FL9-125-199-207-150.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:38:11 -!- andreh [bd1b0c88@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.189.27.12.136] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 02:38:40 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-70-187.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:40 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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http://znc.in] 04:35:33 vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has joined #lisp 04:35:33 -!- vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:36:06 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 04:37:15 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 04:37:19 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:05 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 04:39:28 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:42:01 how do I get rid of the ^M character when I'm reading from a stream using read-line? 04:44:53 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-222-40-153.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:09 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:46:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-40-153.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50:45 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-234-131.w109-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:50:56 Good morning everyone! 04:51:16 overcapacity [~theanthro@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:53:15 Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has joined #lisp 04:53:23 Good morning. 04:53:39 pjb: Hey! What is this about Genera? 04:53:48 pranavrc: by using clisp (it converts newlines automatically) or by specify an external-format that implies this conversion. 04:53:56 Genera? 04:54:04 maybe I misread the logs. 04:54:07 Too early for me. 04:54:19 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:54:37 Thre had some discussion about it, and simulators. 04:54:58 I see. 04:55:02 Usual newbie stuff :-) 04:55:05 pjb, alright thanks. This happens only on telnet, so I suppose I could modify telnet settings as well 04:56:16 In ccl, you'd do (setf (ccl::stream-external-format stream) (ccl:make-external-format :domain nil :character-encoding encoding :line-termination :windows)) 04:56:44 or rather (open path :external-format (ccl:make-external-format :domain nil :character-encoding encoding :line-termination 04:56:44 :windows)) 04:59:43 Using sbcl on unix, but yeah, I'll figure that out. Thanks! 05:00:01 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:00:50 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-70-187.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:02:38 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:03:24 vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has joined #lisp 05:03:30 -!- vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:06:48 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 05:07:02 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Quit: I really need to sleep.] 05:07:10 Are there any cross platform GUIs for CL? Also, is it possible to make a cross-platform sbcl standalone exe with save-lisp-and-die? I tried making an image under arch linux and moving it to windows xp and it attempts to run a simple (print "Hello world") under the old DOS mode (and runs out of memory due to the exe being 30MB and DOS limiting it to less than 1 MB) 05:07:13 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:08:03 I don't think the save-lisp-and-die under sbcl linux includes a usable windows header to tell it that it should run as an exe (so it defaults to the dos exe) 05:08:13 Maybe I just have to do SLAD under a windows os 05:10:29 ahungry: I am pretty sure the core file you save with save-lisp-and-die is specific to the OS. 05:11:33 thanks beach, I was starting to suspect that 05:12:21 -!- overcapacity [~theanthro@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:34 vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has joined #lisp 05:17:40 -!- vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:18:19 ebobby [~fms@189.170.17.62] has joined #lisp 05:18:23 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.19.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:20:30 -!- nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:20:38 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.206.72] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 ahungry: but that's not to say that you couldn't design a CL implementation that would provide universal portability, just like java+JVM promized us. 05:22:21 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 05:22:53 nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:56 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.118.156] has joined #lisp 05:26:04 overcapacity [~restorati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:27:23 -!- nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:28:02 vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 -!- vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:29:24 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has left #lisp 05:31:37 nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:02 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:33:14 ggole [~ggole@106-68-138-69.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:33:37 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:34:31 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:46 vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 -!- vinian [~vinian@124.202.190.196] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:43:16 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 05:48:09 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:46 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 06:03:46 Ogion [~Ogion@22.Red-81-32-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:29 -!- nicholasbulka [~nicholasb@108-212-80-206.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: nicholasbulka] 06:17:11 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:19 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 06:20:22 New on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html : ensure-generic-function-using-class. The GIT repository is at https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLOS-MOP-HTML if anyone would like to improve existing files or add new ones. 06:21:55 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-40-153.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:28:56 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-58-66.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:39 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:47:55 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:50:01 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:51:05 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:52:56 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:53:32 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:57:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:00:18 Hmm, maybe the CLOS MOP would be a great test case for the CL-based document system I have been contemplating. 07:03:22 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:05:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:06:40 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:10:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11:58 -!- sword [~sword@c-24-21-33-225.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:14:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:18:32 -!- Ogion is now known as Ogion_ 07:18:45 -!- Ogion_ is now known as Ogion 07:18:45 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:18:51 -!- Ogion is now known as Ogion_ 07:19:03 -!- Ogion_ is now known as Ogion 07:19:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:23:38 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:26:20 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:28:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:29:19 akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:43 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:46 jewel [~jewel@197.110.95.161] has joined #lisp 07:31:55 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:33:53 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 07:36:29 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE78cd8e65fa60-CM78cd8e65fa5d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 07:42:30 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:47 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:47:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:59:56 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:01:13 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 08:10:00 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:10:25 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:21:06 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 08:21:53 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.206.72] has left #lisp 08:22:23 p_l: fixed in what respect? 08:22:24 mathrick, memo from p_l: Based on your repo, but manually done because chef doesn't like ancient Ubuntu: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2013-12-28_22%3A38_1366x768.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2013-12-28_22%3A39_1366x768.png https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2013-12-28_22%3A37_1366x768.png 08:24:46 Hmm, maybe the CLOS MOP would be a great test case for the CL-based document system I have been contemplating. <-- it'd be an important use-case, yes 08:25:49 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 08:27:59 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:29:22 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 08:30:21 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:32:44 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:36:40 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:38:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:42:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:30 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:42:48 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:43:45 hualet_deepin [~user@183.94.93.146] has joined #lisp 08:48:29 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:54:14 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:23 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:58:38 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:33 mathrick: Did you get yourself hired? 09:04:48 Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:27 -!- frx [~frx@93-138-29-221.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:11:22 -!- hualet_deepin [~user@183.94.93.146] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:13:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:14:45 vaporatorius [~vaporator@36.Red-79-151-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:28 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 09:19:03 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:02 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:21:21 -!- stanislav__ [~stanislav@bl16-78-182.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:23:56 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.229.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:31 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 09:25:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25:50 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26:38 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-249-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:58 ggole_ [~ggole@58-7-85-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:27:47 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-150-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:10 Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:13 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-138-69.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:40:40 mathrick: current vagrant no longer appears to have commands you depend on 09:41:29 and Chef doesn't work with the old glibc or sudo in 7.10 09:42:04 Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:43 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:46:14 frx [~michael@93-138-180-118.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:47:23 -!- milosn [~milosn@genkt-058-084.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:52:41 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@65-6.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:57:26 beach: still communicating; the xmas-new year break is not exactly conductive to fast turnarounds :) 09:57:56 p_l: oh 09:58:18 well then, I think it'd be best to mandate old enough chef/vagrant, no? 09:58:19 I see, yes. 09:58:45 how's your christmas been? 09:59:23 Mine? Fine, thanks. Some friends over for dinner. Yours? 09:59:52 visiting family, as usual 10:00:00 Near or far? 10:00:06 Poland 10:00:13 I see. 10:00:34 been shooting with my dad (his xmas gift) and sis on friday, played some foosball yesterday 10:00:38 can't complain 10:00:47 mathrick: Great! 10:01:36 mathrick: Currently, I am not working on CLIMatis nor on Climacs, so consider it fairly "stable" right now. 10:02:16 mathrick: My last thing was to add the incremental reader for Climacs CL mode. It is not the final version, but it's a start. 10:02:24 ah yes, you mentioned that 10:02:52 beach: I assume it's not just incremental, but also side-effectless, right? 10:02:55 mathrick: I am confident that it will be possible to parse the entire buffer incrementally after each keystroke while maintaining reasonable performance. 10:03:10 nice! 10:03:23 mathrick: Not quite at the moment. It still does INTERN rather than something else. 10:03:30 ah 10:03:45 mathrick: But that's just because I "stole" the SICL reader. 10:03:52 interning is icky for things that aren't precisely *the* CL reader 10:03:53 right 10:03:53 ... and didn't adapt it enough. 10:04:10 (truth be told, interning is icky for the CL reader too, but that we can't change) 10:04:19 hehe, sure, yes. 10:04:57 mathrick: Also, I am now convinced that it will eventually be possible to have a persistent global evaluation environment, so that it will actually be possible to minimally compile the buffer incrementally. 10:05:07 oh 10:05:08 mathrick: But there is a lot of work left for that to be possible. 10:05:17 beach: did you take undo/redo into account? 10:05:43 mathrick: This is a different issue. 10:06:14 I am just thinking that it would be possible to save the state of the global evaluation environment between each top-level form in the buffer, without side-effecting it. 10:06:38 ah 10:06:49 It is actually not that hard. Just save deltas as conses onto a list. 10:07:14 And define the environment-manipulation functions to use the new structure. 10:07:42 Since SICL has all those functions already (but not for a persistent environment), I think I can adapt them for this purpose. 10:08:21 MasterJack [~user@95-42-49-145.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:08:29 and perhaps define an API so that it can eventually be used without modification, just as a specialisation? 10:08:32 Anyway, as I said, there is still a lot of work, so it won't happen any time soon. 10:08:43 yeah 10:08:45 Indeed, yes. 10:09:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:02 It would not hurt to use the persistent version in the normal compiler. The number of modifications to the evaluation environment is going to be small, even for a fairly large file to compile. Perhaps a few hundred functions/classes/etc added. 10:10:55 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has joined #lisp 10:11:06 nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:16 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:11:29 The cost of that will drown in the noise of the cost of code optimization. 10:12:59 The challenge is rather to turn the startup environment of any old CL implementation into a persistent evaluation environment. But I think it can be done by just a bunch of deltas with the normal startup environment behind them. 10:13:13 ... but I haven't ironed out the details yet. 10:13:59 It gets complicated because the "environment" includes things like that state of the reader. 10:14:20 right 10:14:34 So if some top-level form adds a macro character, this has to be done without side effects. 10:14:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:52 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:13 There might even be some showstoppers in there, but I think we can do a fairly good job, and I think we can do it by incremental improvements, starting with only the incremental non-persistent reader, then adding a persistent evaluation environment, and finally making the readtable persistent. 10:16:47 Already the first step should give a better result than what Emacs is able to do at the moment. 10:18:01 indeed 10:18:04 mathrick: One more thing: Climacs is a bit sluggish at the moment, but that is not due to Climacs itself. It basically spends all its time drawing character pixels to the framebuffer. 10:18:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:20 beach: ah, why's that? 10:18:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has joined #lisp 10:18:39 mathrick: It is not worth trying to fix that at the moment, because its a property of how the CLIMatis backend was written. 10:19:11 mathrick: Consider the current backend as a very simple kludge to make sure the model works. 10:19:43 mathrick: Later, we might consider an OpenGL backend or an X11-render-extension backend. 10:20:00 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:20:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:20:34 ... or I might do what I threatened to do, i.e., optimize the current one so that pixels are only redrawn if it can't prove that they are the same as last time. 10:21:26 ah, I see 10:21:57 so essentially, right now it's as dumb as it possibly can be? 10:22:27 still, it's somewhat surprising it'd take long enough to matter when you're more or less blitting the framebuffer to X in one step 10:22:42 That's not what is taking time. 10:22:42 pixel ops are mostly slow when you do them over X 10:22:47 oh? 10:23:03 I draw each pixel of each visible character each time into the frame buffer. 10:23:40 So you have a million or so operations to do on each of three colors, with alpha blending etc. 10:23:47 beach: oh, you mean without caching of any sort, so recomputing the freetype glyph shapes too? 10:24:00 No, the glyph is in the form of a mask. 10:24:03 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:24:27 Even so, it takes time. 10:24:32 I see 10:24:53 But I haven't even attempted simple things like declarations and higher optimization level. 10:25:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:25:37 You can play with it if you like, but don't consider it important. 10:25:46 yeah 10:25:52 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:46 The profile report says that a significant amount of time is spent in generic + and generic *. 10:26:48 mathrick: What make and model was your fathers present? if you don't mind me asking. 10:27:17 guthur: oh, I meant going to the shooting range was the gift. We live in PL, which means private gun ownership is not a thing 10:27:40 it's the US and only the US that considers people owning firearms freely to be a good thing 10:27:45 ah, ok. Shooting range is fun though 10:27:48 it is! 10:28:00 it's also a great way to try a range of guns 10:28:01 target shotting is quite the skill 10:28:30 -!- akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:28:40 what were you shooting, I've recently been shooting .22 at 20m and 50m at the local range 10:29:04 I wouldn't call what we did "skill", but we did punch holes in the paper targets, so something visible has happened :) 10:29:16 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:34 I'm in Australia, firearms are allowed, but it is not easy. Took me over 6 months to get a license 10:29:53 oh, your laws are even dumber than ours 10:30:03 hehe, it takes practice like most things 10:30:05 for whatever idiotic reason, you have to have a licence to shoot at the range 10:30:20 and the licence includes a shooting exam 10:30:36 how you're supposed to get the shooting skills without being allowed at the range I have no idea 10:30:47 really that's a little bonkers, i don't need a license to shoot at the range, but i was considering getting a .22 of my own 10:30:54 so got the licenese 10:31:25 yeah, it's a similar thing in the UK 10:31:49 there is one guy who, i think, was commonwealth or world champion but could not actually practice in the uk 10:31:57 ,,, 10:31:57 he had to go to switzerland 10:32:23 you can imagine how good he would have been if he was actually allowed to practice 10:32:24 isn't that how the law works in the AU too? Last I read, you couldn't just go to the range without having a gun permit 10:32:32 ...that was handguns 10:32:53 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:32:54 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has joined #lisp 10:32:56 in AU you can go to the range when there is a club and shoot with that club 10:33:05 Indecipherable [~Indy@41.13.164.44] has joined #lisp 10:33:07 you need to be under complete supervision 10:33:09 so you have to be a member? 10:33:23 yeah, though most of them allow visitors 10:33:31 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: resttime] 10:33:35 oh, same here, but the thing is, any adult can just step into a licensed shooting range and shoot under supervision 10:33:48 you don't need any training or permit 10:33:56 that's what the licensed instructors are there for 10:34:13 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:34:44 guthur: we did cz-85, cz scorpion evo, ak-74, some .357 magnum S&W I didn't check the model of properly, and M4 10:35:23 oh, that's some fancy firearms, some of those you would not be able to get in AU 10:35:34 ... i suspect 10:35:42 also it got crowded at some point with millions of people shooting. Some guys a couple courses over were shooting black powder firearms; now those are something to behold 10:35:51 -!- wokko [~wokko@CPE-121-223-134-154.lns1.bat.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 10:36:00 i was looking at CZ for my .22, suppose to be very good for the price 10:36:56 guthur: I was amazed how easy to control and accurate M4 was, even though unlike ak-74 and scorpion it only had iron sights rather than red dot and was chambered for the same rounds as ak-74 10:37:44 I would have to go to the US to get to play with any of those i think, hehe 10:37:55 aw shucks 10:38:28 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:38:41 I like the bolt action .22 though, it would be fun to blast of a few rounds of those firearms, but taking your time and trying to line up perfect shots is very satisfying 10:38:58 ...on the few times i get a perfect shoot 10:46:15 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 10:46:23 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:46:57 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 10:48:51 bentgf [~ben@199.241.30.80] has joined #lisp 10:49:53 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@41.13.164.44] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:50:07 ReatvieN [~ReatvieN@195-132-62-242.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:55:01 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:13 Jini [~pidgin@195.112.102.205] has joined #lisp 10:55:15 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B1ACD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 protist [~protist@176.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:59:53 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:59:58 miken [~miken@2-229-142-71.ip197.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:00:09 -!- frgo [~user@p5491EE07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:28 -!- miken [~miken@2-229-142-71.ip197.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 11:07:03 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:16:29 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@36.Red-79-151-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 11:18:08 bitonic` [~user@ppp-158-169.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 11:18:47 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:29:15 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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13:34:15 -!- ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:51 -!- cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:34 ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 13:36:58 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:35 Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has joined #lisp 13:40:34 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:23 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:22 what are the cool kids using for lispy database backends these days? clsql? 13:43:38 -!- protist [~protist@176.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:46:20 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 13:46:26 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:48:18 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 13:48:24 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:53:53 -!- aap_ [~aap@85.183.44.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:41 -!- segyr [~quassel@ti0049a400-0474.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:58:04 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.104] has joined #lisp 14:01:45 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:07 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:30 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:03 postmodern? 14:06:05 p_l: looks nice. I'll check it out. thanks. 14:06:20 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 14:06:37 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:06:43 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:07:05 I thought the real cool ones used object prevalence. 14:08:32 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:09:01 sup beach :) 14:09:15 Hi theos. 14:09:20 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:09:56 beach: what was the name of that lisp database... rucksack? :) 14:10:17 well, I'll be also biased, and say that some cool ones use AllegroCache and AllegroGraph :P 14:10:31 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:10:42 p_l: Don't know. I was thinking of my own version of object prevalence, called "Clobber": https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber 14:10:43 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:12:09 ah 14:12:12 haven't seen that one 14:12:18 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:12:24 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:13:03 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:53 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:13:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:59 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:16:40 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:18:13 -!- maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:18:21 p_l: It works quite well, even though it contains only 250 lines of code. 14:18:28 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B1ACD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:05 p_l: ... and, as the README says, it is simpler, more flexible, and more robust than traditional object prevalence, in particular cl-prevalence. 14:20:06 beach: the whole branch that cl-prevalence comes from (and of which Clobber appears to be a better, but still same family, solution) unfortunately rubs me wrong, if not goes into "won't work for me" 14:20:32 even if somehow one were to write a 2-space GC for it :) 14:20:55 p_l: Yeah, I know database people have a hard time with it. 14:21:47 beach: mostly because it screams "your use case will blow" ;) 14:22:05 doesn't mean it's bad or wrong 14:22:16 I don't see why that would be the case. 14:22:28 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:23:05 I mean, it is based on in-core data, so it will blow up when your database exceeds that size. 14:23:23 On the other hand, that can be pretty large these days. 14:23:35 Corvidium [~cosman246@187.153.55.114] has joined #lisp 14:24:30 beach: yeah, when few terabytes don't cut for "big data"... 14:24:39 Right. 14:25:08 I am personally convinced that using relational databases means giving up 50 years of programming-language progress in favor of FORTRAN-style data structures. 14:25:55 And I am convinced that all this is for no reason in nearly all cases, where the database will fit in memory anyway. 14:27:20 beach: umm... relational databases are pretty different from FORTRAN 14:27:35 A bit, but not much. 14:27:44 No pointers, no lists. 14:28:36 beach: there are pointers, just custom-defined so they fit the data, but most important they are based on set-logic, not loops or anything like that 14:28:46 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:29:00 When I showed my students that the data in the newly-acquired Oracle-based student-info database would fit in my laptop even after 100 years of use, they chose not to believe me, presumably because of cognitive dissonance. 14:29:31 a big problem is that relational databases are often misused, and some systems that claim the title were pretty... broken by design (MySQL...) 14:29:38 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 p_l: Maybe so. I need to do more research to be sure of what I am talking about. Then I'll write a book about it. :) 14:30:45 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:30:51 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:31:13 beach: also, databases involve a lot, lot more functionality that is often needed (failover, constraint verification, concurrency, audit trails, etc.) 14:31:35 That's why I said I need to do more research. 14:31:56 But I believe you. 14:32:00 beach: funnily enough, a very "light" reading might be a certain humour website 14:32:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:32:53 Could be. 14:33:01 also, as a bit of antidote to "NoSQL" - one of the more succesful NoSQL systems, a "navigational" database (CODASYL style, iirc), is sold by IBM since 70s 14:33:03 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 14:33:04 if not 60s 14:33:14 loke_erc` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:446d:14e9:99f8:6d1c] has joined #lisp 14:33:22 IBM IMS is the name 14:33:23 Yes, I remember CODASYL. 14:34:20 as for the humour: dbareactions.com <--- professional, high-end DBAs exorcising their frustrations through jokes ;) 14:35:37 vaporatorius [~vaporator@36.Red-79-151-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:37 one of the points they often repeat is laughing at "big data" demos that fit on a laptop 14:35:52 Great. 14:35:56 Looks good! 14:36:17 for comparison, a server with 1TB of memory is not that hard to get, databases sized in petabytes are more common these days as well 14:36:17 vantage|casa [~vantage@62.4.154.90] has joined #lisp 14:36:59 object prevalence, however, if coupled with some kind of basic 2-space GC, would be a great for single-user programs 14:37:18 Why are you talking about 2-space GC? 14:37:27 Why does it matter? 14:37:52 beach: shrinking transaction log 14:37:58 and yes, it IMO matters. 14:38:13 In Clobber, the transaction log is written to a file. 14:38:23 So it is not kept in memory. 14:38:29 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:38:57 beach: and it is loaded later, right? The idea is that you could tell it to write a new transaction log starting from current state, discarding old history 14:38:59 It could be written to a network connection, in case you are afraid of a disk crash. 14:39:35 It is loaded only when, for some reason, you need to restart your database. 14:39:52 And even then, it is not "loaded", but executed, one transaction at a time. 14:40:18 beach: yes. And my suggestion was to "shrink" it, to shorten the reload time and make the log smaller 14:40:38 p_l: Why on earth would you have to do that? 14:40:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:41:10 computers are not single-tenant, and ability to expunge data might be useful 14:41:17 I am pretty sure that loading the log would take much less time than rebooting your computer for databases with fewer than a couple billion transactions. 14:41:50 beach: my computer kinda cheats that comparison.... 14:41:55 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB9E4B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:01 p_l: Well, the idea is based on currently active data will fit in memory. 14:42:19 ... but not the transaction history. 14:42:29 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 14:42:29 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:52 beach: which is why I suggested expunging. Because if I have a bunch of big transactions in the past, later deleted, I'd prefer to not load them at all 14:43:22 I am pretty sure that won't be a problem in the vast majority of cases. 14:43:53 vantage|2 [~vantage@188.189.42.50] has joined #lisp 14:44:00 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:02 It will be 6 orders of magnitude faster than a database that attempts to use secondary memory. 14:46:03 Just for kicks, if you have a database with (say) one transaction per second, then you get around 30 million transactions per year. Some databases get a lot more than that, of course, but I am willing to bet there are A LOT of people out there buying Oracle for even smaller databases. 14:46:15 -!- vantage|casa [~vantage@62.4.154.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:42 p_l: It's OK, you are not convinced and I get it. 14:46:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:59 beach: usually the people buying oracle buy it for reasons other than disk usage 14:47:01 p_l: And, again, I need to do more research to be sure of what I am talking about. 14:47:12 or memory usage 14:47:15 p_l: Yes, mostly ignorance. 14:47:19 beach: nope 14:48:08 there's a part of that, in choosing *Oracle* from all other vendors, but a big part is "we need reliable *server* with failover and transaction separation" 14:48:45 a lot of cases are "We are buying software that depends on " 14:48:52 p_l: I believe you. 14:49:24 I personally advise against Oracle, because I have bad experience with one of the reasons that supposedly are *for* using it, because I found it a lie - the customer support 14:49:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.99.154] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.99.154] has quit [Changing host] 14:49:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:49:58 (and that was for a site with highest level paid service contract) 14:50:19 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:50:24 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:50:30 p_l: When I am ready to do some more research about this, would it be OK if I consult you? 14:51:18 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:51:32 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:52:01 you can. I am not the best expert around, though - just ended up one day with a better book on SQL than the typical tutorial on the net and it followed from there :) 14:52:25 p_l: I might do the same one day. 14:52:40 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:52:46 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:53:00 beach: Personally I think the "random bad tutorial", "PHP" and "MySQL 3.x" are a big part of why RDBMS seem so bad these days 14:53:31 Again, I believe you. I haven't read them. 14:53:45 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:53:50 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:54:03 Still, I might try out clobber for some things. Although the stuff I am looking at working on now doesn't fit it 14:54:17 *p_l* will have to call Franz about AGraph, though 14:55:19 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:55:56 *macdice* is using postgresql via postmodern, it's very nice to work with so far 14:56:10 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:56 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:57:03 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:57:05 postgresql is one of the nicer open source databases, yes. And it got nice documentation 14:57:49 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:57:55 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:58:21 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:08 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 14:59:28 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:59:50 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:00 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:00:52 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:01:08 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:01:38 a database hacker friend of mine keeps telling me its mvcc design reminds him of a rear-engined car, made to work with enough engineering 15:02:16 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:02:21 macdice: show him postgresql-xc 15:02:22 on the other hand, its (new) serializble isolation level seems to be somewhat state-of-the art, building on that rear engine 15:02:22 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:02:54 yeah i've shown him XC. i can't figure out why more people aren't talking about XC 15:03:18 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:03:19 the big issue of Postges compared to some other databases is apparently lack of parallel queries (that is, parallel execution of query plan) 15:03:24 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:03:39 i sort of follow the developer mailing list: it's in the works 15:03:48 that is, groundwork is being done in that area 15:03:49 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:04:01 macdice: I'm personally waiting a bit for XC to catch to newer versions (important data types became more available), also XC is a bit of complex to set up 15:04:18 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:34 XC also contains a ditributed (and parallel) query planner and executor of course 15:04:38 another thing Postgres is still missing is proper materialized views (that is, auto-updating and possibly writeable) 15:04:52 when enough groundwork is done i could imagine those making their way into single-node core pg 15:05:04 (not that i know anything about what is planned, i am only a mailing list lurker) 15:05:12 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 but at current level, Postgres is in the same weight class as commercial RDBMSes 15:05:19 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:05:43 though I do recall some stuff that Oracle loves to sell that would for example apply to things like student databases 15:05:48 beach: ^ 15:06:01 for example, internally-encrypted database objects 15:06:09 I see. 15:06:30 this is a feature sold for PI and CC information control compliance 15:06:49 i predict that the pg community would say: that should be done by a filesystem (that is what they say about compression) 15:06:53 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:06:59 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:07:28 the commercial rdbms systems i've seen (cursory look only, this came up in my day job) do encryption 'at rest' (ie the data is not encrypted in ram) 15:07:30 macdice: compression and encryption can sometimes be better done with application-level view of data 15:07:38 i know 15:08:04 db2 compression totally blows away anything a filesystem can do 15:08:15 macdice: getting memory dump is harder than just scavenging the database files when you gain access to the host 15:08:38 also, DB2 got one kind of compression that Postgres really ought to consider implementing - column-oriented tables 15:08:38 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:08:39 yeah, i think the key point is what the relevant funny laws say 15:08:44 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:08:45 that made me salivate 15:08:46 -!- easye [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:55 yeah BLU, just been to a presentation on DB2 BLU from a bunch of IBM sales droids :-) 15:09:24 macdice: I recently ended up setting up DB2 for a friend of mine who needed it for work but couldn't get a place to test it 15:09:27 BLU seems cool, it's an 'answer' to vertica, greenplum, ... 15:10:17 from what i could gather, reading up on the encryption systems, is that they are about ticking a box to meet certain laws 15:10:20 there's afaik some level of triple-store support there, as well 15:10:35 'at rest' encryption seems a bit silly to me 15:10:45 people don't steal servers with bolt cutters and a van 15:10:49 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:10:51 ... you'd be surprised 15:10:55 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:11:13 also, encryption makes it easy for disposal 15:11:16 heh. ok maybe some people do. but that doesn't seem to be the main threat to a database full of credit cards/patients/whatever 15:11:49 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:11:50 macdice: I actually know of a place full of such data that could be stolen this way if someone managed to find out which racks to steal 15:11:55 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:12:12 (would require to know which SAN racks to steal etc.) 15:12:13 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:44 don't data centres tend to have finger print readers and star trek doors that slide open and closed only for the right biometric blah blah these days? 15:12:45 backup site for billing system, so data on phone calls made 15:12:47 elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.222] has joined #lisp 15:13:02 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:13:03 macdice: there's some of that. It's not a guarantee, though 15:13:05 p_l: shell scripts are less good, since vagrant / chef come with a bunch of testing and verifying logic. I spent a good deal of my work on it replacing a big ball of shell run via chef with proper chef recipes, which made it more robust and also cut down the startup time from 200s down to 7s 15:13:07 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:13:11 also, as I said - it makes for easier disposal 15:13:26 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 mathrick: Sure - except that making a version of chef that will work on this becomes a bit problematic with time 15:13:58 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:14:04 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:14:20 we are setting up an ancient, non-upgradeable system in a world where people don't even notice having hard dependencies on latest glibc 15:14:50 ...to run an ancient, even less upgradeable system in a VM :) 15:14:59 frxx [~michael@93-138-180-118.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:15:00 -!- frx [~michael@93-138-180-118.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:03 yep 15:15:16 anyway re postgres, i like that the SERIALIZABLE system was based on a paper by a guy working for oracle (snapshot serializable isolation, cahill, a few years ago now), and oracle STILL hasn't got a correct SERIALIABLE (it suffers write skew, last time i looked into it at least and on wikipedia today) 15:15:27 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@188.189.42.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:29 p_l: perhaps. I think the right approach would be to use the gem/RVM versioning support to make sure the last working versions are there, and use that 15:15:37 it's still more robust than shell 15:15:51 everything is more robust than shell 15:16:02 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:16:05 mathrick: I'm thinking of pushing more of the build into box-building stage, anyway 15:16:08 -!- vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:16:21 and shell can be written quite robust :P 15:16:38 though I would have stayed with chef if not for being annoyed at getting it to run there 15:16:40 yeah, or you can just not write shell, and have it both robust and shell-less 15:16:42 win-win if you ask me 15:17:03 macdice: Oracle, IMHO, has a tendency of engineer exodus ;) 15:17:09 p_l: I'd actually be willing to invest time into rewriting it with puppet if it turns out to be more past-proof 15:17:20 because it's still better than shell 15:17:41 mathrick: I guess I could try making a self-standing copy of chef omnibus for it... 15:17:56 p_l: but it already downloads and compiles a specific ruby version, so I see no problem in making it use a specific vagrant version 15:18:42 p_l: keep in mind that I didn't write the original system, and the vagrant/chef split is frankly rather nonsensical 15:18:52 Guthur``` [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:12 QwertyDragon_ [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 so I'm not campaigning for the exact details of how it works atm, just campaigning against shell 15:19:26 mathrick: vagrant is bigger problem, because the authors decided to fuck with everyone in terms of packaging 15:19:34 oh? 15:19:37 howso? 15:19:59 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:20:00 vinian [~vinian@125.39.117.33] has joined #lisp 15:20:00 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:20:00 zacharias [~aw@aw-sovereign.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:01 -!- zacharias [~aw@aw-sovereign.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:20:01 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:20:04 mathrick: vagrant is currently "downloadable" either as RPM (Fedora/RedHat) or DEB (debian-based) 15:20:05 -!- QwertyDragon_ is now known as QwertyDragon 15:20:11 that's it 15:20:24 -!- Guthur`` [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:20:33 p_l: uhh, there are older versions as gems, I know because that's how I got mine 15:20:37 I never used any debs 15:20:56 mathrick: also, it currently has its own custom plugin distribution system etc. 15:21:14 so for example I had to use veewee as separate application (and it also changed a lot) 15:21:15 yeah, but again, older versions are there as gems 15:21:50 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:16 well, I'm trying to get something that requires the least of "you need to install alternate Ruby environment and carefully install old versions of software into it in order to run this" 15:22:26 *alternative 15:22:34 yes 15:22:38 but that's already a solved problem, it's called RVM 15:22:45 brb, food time 15:22:46 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A4D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:03 it just needs a bit of reciping in the makefile to use RVM rather than good will of whoever is running the makefile 15:23:12 more robust a solution anyway 15:23:37 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 15:26:52 _zxq9_ [~ceverett@FL9-125-199-207-150.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 KingNato_ [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:28:02 crypto_ [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:24 kbtr_ [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:26 GuilOooo_ [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 jtza8_ 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has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:35 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:05 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 16:14:50 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:20:39 *p_l* ponders the "Simple DDT" left in Open Genera distribution system 16:21:59 -!- loke_erc` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:446d:14e9:99f8:6d1c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:12 AjoCebollaSisal [~AjoCeboll@200.79.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:23:45 -!- nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:31 segyr_ [~quassel@ti0049a400-1668.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:34:05 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 16:34:53 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:10 ehu` 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vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 17:36:28 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 17:39:48 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:47:50 -!- AjoCebollaSisal [~AjoCeboll@200.79.253.35] has quit [K-Lined] 17:49:08 -!- pnpuff` [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:33 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:52:16 -!- klltkr[JAX] [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 17:52:36 akbiggs_ [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279596203.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 p_l: what's that? 17:55:21 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595059.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:56:39 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 17:56:46 -!- nicholasbulka [~nicholasb@108-212-80-206.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 17:58:07 -!- kbtr_ [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:58:53 mal___ [mal@2001:41d0:1:66c4::1] has joined #lisp 17:59:28 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:02:03 milosn [~milosn@109.144.246.214] has joined #lisp 18:05:59 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:38 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:09:14 rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:01 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:34 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 -!- cpape` [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:15 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:29 cpape`` [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 18:11:53 frx [~michael@93-138-180-118.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:12:01 -!- frxx [~michael@93-138-180-118.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:03 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:43 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@22.Red-81-32-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:14:17 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:20 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:19:47 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 18:21:14 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 18:21:28 -!- akbiggs_ [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279596203.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:15 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:53 nipra [~nipra@122.177.228.199] has joined #lisp 18:26:14 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:28:21 Ogion [~Ogion@22.Red-81-32-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:03 -!- ggole_ [~ggole@58-7-85-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:11 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:29:19 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B1ACD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 ggole_ [~ggole@58-7-85-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:33:53 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:41 mathrick: DDT used to mean "DEC/Data/Digital Debugger Tape" 18:36:47 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:37:13 GrayMagiker [~steve@206-169-65-4.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:19 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.228.199] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:39 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:29 p_l: what does that do? 18:41:45 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 18:43:13 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:44:22 mathrick: as the name says, debugger. SDDT appears to be some kind of low-level inspector 18:45:24 p_l: but isn't that a part of Tru64? 18:46:07 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:46:08 mathrick: no, SDDT is defined in SYS:IN-HOUSE;SDDT.LISP 18:46:33 the IN-HOUSE part surprised me, that's the location suggested in docs for Site System 18:46:45 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@206-169-65-4.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:52 InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has joined #lisp 18:49:04 how you doing guys! I'm getting a somewhat randomly SIGSEGV in SBCL when I execute a simple snippet of code which uses alien, is this (progn (load-shared-object #P"/usr/lib64/llvm/libclang.so") (alien-funcall (extern-alien "clang_createIndex" (function (* t) int int)) 1 1)) 18:49:30 Sometimes I an get the result 18:49:47 but then it seems the system gets corrupt 18:50:17 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:40 -!- ggole_ [~ggole@58-7-85-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 18:52:40 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:19 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@22.Red-81-32-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:57:59 add^_` [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:03:08 Ogion [~Ogion@81.32.255.22] has joined #lisp 19:05:15 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 19:07:08 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:09:17 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 19:09:35 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:20 -!- Sourceless_ is now known as Sourceless 19:15:16 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:16 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@94.137.5.30] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys_] 19:16:05 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:26 frgo [~user@p5498EBDF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:10 alien is a lisp ffi, I takeit not the debian thing 19:19:32 -!- milosn [~milosn@109.144.246.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:19:52 possible 32/64 deal 19:20:07 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 19:20:14 *32 vs 64 19:26:39 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:58 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 hi 19:36:34 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:37:39 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:04 Oh, I didn't even notice SBCL 1.1.14 came out 19:40:36 Monthly releases never really made sense to me. If there's not much to release, why bother with one? :) 19:40:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:12 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 19:44:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:42 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:58 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:08 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:49:14 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 19:49:49 kristof has gone, but "predictability" is one answer 19:50:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:57:43 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 -!- OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:03:35 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:09 OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:47 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:25 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:13:58 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:52 -!- GuilOooo_ is now known as GuilOooo 20:25:44 -!- klltkr is now known as klltkr[JAX] 20:27:21 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:36 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:27 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-250-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:33:16 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:51 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:34:31 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:35:30 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279596203.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:36:02 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:37:03 nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:22 ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.212.102] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.212.102] has quit [Changing host] 20:40:42 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 20:41:00 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279596203.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:53 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279596203.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:42:07 wokko [~wokko@CPE-121-223-134-154.lns1.bat.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:48:24 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 20:51:06 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:50 -!- Jini [~pidgin@195.112.102.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:10 Jini [~pidgin@195.112.102.205] has joined #lisp 20:58:12 -!- Jini [~pidgin@195.112.102.205] has left #lisp 21:00:01 lman` [~user@108.Red-176-83-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:01:49 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:02:21 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:02:41 nug700_ [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:17 -!- InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:04:39 spupy [~spupy@client-36-174.speedy-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:05:28 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:42 -!- lman` [~user@108.Red-176-83-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: changing program] 21:09:12 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 21:09:20 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:32 jewel [~jewel@41.48.223.230] has joined #lisp 21:12:35 Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:03 sbp [~sbp@pubble.infomesh.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:41 hey, does anybody have the Explorer 1 disk image tarball for Nevermore? http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Nevermore 21:15:03 I found the eproms and managed to reconstruct the CPU config ROM from a .h file in another emulator 21:15:32 according to the web, Al Kossow once had a copy of the images, but they're not on the web now, and they're not in the Web Archive 21:16:58 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-234-131.w109-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 21:17:26 the three files are explScsi0Dr0.dsk, explScsi0Dr1.dsk, and explScsi2.dsk, in case somebody has a load of stuff squirreled away on their hard drives to search through 21:19:18 -!- delYsid` [~user@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:18 I had some named X1-something 21:21:24 can't access them now, though 21:21:33 (few thousand kilometers away on a dying laptop) 21:22:08 resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:17 p_l: oh, yes! the meroko images! 21:23:23 just loaded those, and they work fine. thanks a lot! 21:23:26 -!- sbp [~sbp@pubble.infomesh.net] has left #lisp 21:23:28 hehe 21:25:18 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:25 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:53 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:31:35 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:32:29 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:33:07 hi, what's the typical debugger setting for production deployment of hunchentoot? 21:33:33 I start it with --no-debugger (sbcl) and the whole lisp dies on errors 21:33:52 something like automatic restart "releae locks, kill current thread" would be more sensible 21:35:03 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:35:14 specifically I have: 21:35:16 sbcl --disable-ldb --lose-on-corruption --dynamic-space-size 8192 --core core-current --end-runtime-options --disable-debugger --eval '(start-me)' --end-toplevel-options 21:35:45 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 21:36:57 <|3b|> releasing locks at random seems like a bad idea, and killing threads would be independent of debugger settings 21:37:20 I have locks related to serving current request 21:37:25 <|3b|> since debugger is only entered if you don't handle the error (for example by killing a thread) 21:37:28 genericus [~generic@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 ok, so am I to (handler-case .... (t (e) (do-stuff-on-error e)) manually? 21:38:04 killing sbcl process sounds too radical 21:38:09 <|3b|> right, usually you lock things to prevent other threads from seeing an invalid state... if thread dies while holding a lock, things are probably in an invalid state 21:38:14 -!- genericus [~generic@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:07 <|3b|> so the code that locks things needs to handle restoring a valid state on non-local exit at which point it can release the locks properly 21:39:56 *|3b|* thought hunchentoot caught errors though 21:40:08 <|3b|> so wouldn't expect it to kill whole lisp 21:40:15 |3b| what is causing sbcl to die on errors? lack of debugger and unhandled condition? 21:40:58 -!- add^_` [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:59 <|3b|> right, if the condition signalled by ERROR isn't handled, it enters the debugger, if it can't do that, it exits 21:41:10 add^_` [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:41:50 I see. So I need to catch and clean the mess. I will see why hunchentoot is not catching it, maybe I misconfigured it somehow 21:41:53 thanks 21:43:01 -!- wokko [~wokko@CPE-121-223-134-154.lns1.bat.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 21:43:11 <|3b|> yeah, i think it has some variables to configure it 21:43:44 <|3b|> can enter debugger, show error + backtrace on page, or just return error page with no details 21:44:00 number 3 for prod then 21:44:08 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:44:33 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-150-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:16 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-188-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:47:40 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:33 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:29 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:54:45 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:55:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-2-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:39 Oh f me. The book "Land of Lisp" says Common Lisp doesn't have a standardized way of dealing with sockets, and that it varies between implementations. Is that still true? If so, I'm going to cry. 22:03:01 OldContrarian: Well, the ANSI standard hasn't seen an update. 22:03:08 OldContrarian: So what can you expect? 22:03:16 OldContrarian: There are de-facto standards. 22:03:35 I would expect sensible Lispers to come to a unified standard, with or without ANSI. 22:04:03 It can't be that hard, and it's in everybody's best interest to do so. 22:04:35 Ah, there are de-facto standards? Then that's what I was hoping for, I guess. Thanks. 22:04:55 There are sockets in iolib, there's usocket. 22:05:16 Quicklisp says there are "portable-sockets" but I don't know what those are. 22:05:37 Either way, just search quicklisp for "socket". 22:06:09 But it seems the examples in this book (which are for CLISP) don't work in Clozure, which I'm using... :-/ 22:06:55 <|3b|> OldContrarian: not like C has sockets either :p 22:07:34 C has POSIX compliant sockets, that's all we need on that front. 22:07:42 <|3b|> on windows too? 22:08:13 eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:08:13 -!- eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 22:08:13 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 22:08:44 OldContrarian: Well, the book uses CLISP-specific extensions, and obviously those won't work in ccl. 22:08:51 I don't know. Are you saying the standard socket(), listen(), accept(), etc functions don't work in Windows? Did the idiots at Microsoft invent their own wheel? 22:09:10 *|3b|* thought they did 22:09:34 <|3b|> similar but not exactly the same, particularly once you start getting into non-blocking stuff 22:09:39 OldContrarian: So you could either learn the way it's done in ccl, or use one of the libs I mentioned for potentially better portability. 22:09:58 drakma (http client) and hunchentoot (http server) seem to use usocket, for what it's worth. i think usocket is pretty popular 22:10:00 you should consult Stevens' book on network programming to see how "standard" these standard functions are across various unix implementations 22:10:18 I'd try the libs you recommended, thanks - but I'm not at a lisp proficiency level yet where I'm comfortable delving into such things, I'm still learning the basics. 22:10:31 macdice: though last I checked usocket didn't support v6, which worried me at the time 22:10:52 I've read Steven's books cover to cover, actually. And although there are some slight variations, they're not that big. 22:11:55 And with C, at least sockets always work the same on the same machine, no matter what C compiler you use. 22:12:04 s/machine/OS/ 22:12:14 they're big enough in practice to cause trouble 22:12:25 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.usocket.devel/423 <-- says ipv6 is coming in usocket 0.7.0 22:13:12 OldContrarian: I think it would be reasonable to install Clisp for the purpose of running the examples in the book 22:14:06 I tried, but it didn't work on the machine I'm using (a raspberry pi) 22:15:11 rest [~resttime@50.158.65.143] has joined #lisp 22:15:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.48.223.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:16:48 macdice: good news! 22:17:27 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:14 -!- abbe [having@badti.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:20:09 -!- rest [~resttime@50.158.65.143] has quit [Quit: rest] 22:21:08 "Chapter 13. Let's Create a Web Server!" This sounds like fun. Too bad I can't run it, at least not on this machine... 22:21:37 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:21:44 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:22:01 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 22:22:18 abbe [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 22:22:21 -!- ChernoPutin is now known as Floantstin 22:25:00 -!- spupy [~spupy@client-36-174.speedy-net.bg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:26 OldContrarian: Try any hunchentoot tutorial as an equivalently fun excercise ;) 22:25:35 Guaranteed to work. 22:25:50 What does that tutorial entail? 22:26:14 your choice of hardware counts as exotic, I think 22:26:40 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:27 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:29 OldContrarian: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#tutorials  there are a few, just have a look 22:28:08 Some might be a bit dated. 22:28:09 prxq: Yes, but you see the desktop computers in the house are always occupied by the kids. But when I program on the raspberry pi, I can use my Transformer Prime (tablet with hardware keyboard) to ssh in and do the programming there, no matter where I'm at in the house. 22:28:22 <|3b|> OldContrarian: i think i've seen most of the LoL code ported to other lisps, so might try google search for whichever you are trying to run 22:28:55 -!- segyr_ [~quassel@ti0049a400-1668.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:58 |3b|: Yeah, I'm sure I'll be able to figure something out, thanks. 22:30:20 OldContrarian: http://protcorben.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/tutorial-for-hunchentoot/  this seems to have some updated information about the existing tutorials vs some upstream h'toot changes. 22:31:06 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:31:51 Cool, thanks! 22:34:00 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:44 Corvidiu1 [~cosman246@187.153.65.20] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 OldContrarian: I suppose you've seen that already: http://lispm.dyndns.org/ccl 22:41:05 antoszka: Yep, that's the guide I used to set the machine up.' 22:41:10 cool 22:41:47 -!- Floantstin [~nevzets@unaffiliated/nevzets] has left #lisp 22:47:50 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:54:07 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f693ea.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:02 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:21 sohail [~sohail@69-196-139-132.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:34 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-139-132.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:57:34 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:58:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:00:00 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 23:00:49 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 23:01:54 easye [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has joined #lisp 23:05:11 -!- add^_` [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:20 -!- abbe [having@badti.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:21 abbe [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 23:08:36 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@65-6.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:50 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:14 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:16:43 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:56 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 23:23:25 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279596203.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:24:03 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:28:21 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 drmeister [~drmeister@ip24-250-59-12.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:19 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZ] 23:37:31 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:12 -!- lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:38:17 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has joined #lisp 23:38:30 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 23:38:46 guest` [~user@189.115.90.24] has joined #lisp 23:39:00 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:35 why lots of ';' to make comments? 23:40:22 -!- axion [~axion@mail.computer-answers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:40:55 just one suffices.... 23:41:03 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.90.203] has joined #lisp 23:41:05 it's for eye candy.... 23:41:19 and some erm convention 23:41:25 like for emacs mode files.... 23:41:34 <|3b|> there is a convention that more ; means more important or larger area being commented 23:41:44 <|3b|> ; at end of line commenting just that line 23:41:50 goes with nesting level or so.... 23:41:55 <|3b|> ;; mixed with code, indented, describing next few lines 23:42:01 ya 23:42:15 nesting/indentation 23:42:20 <|3b|> ;;; at top level at left , describing a function or so 23:42:28 <|3b|> ;;;; for sections or whole files 23:42:40 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:49 sohail_ [~sohail@69-196-139-132.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:12 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:50 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:48:01 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.159.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:04 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 -!- ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:51:25 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 23:52:20 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-158-169.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:57 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:11 -!- guest` [~user@189.115.90.24] has left #lisp 23:58:11 smithzv [~user@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp