00:01:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.235.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:42 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@24.187.177.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:37 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:23 In quicklisp, isn't the current directory searched as well for systems? I created a project with quickproject, go in that dir, run slimv, (quickload 'myproject), and I get "system not found" 00:13:02 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 00:13:13 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:55 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has left #lisp 00:14:57 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 00:15:16 Isn't ":DOCUMENTATION" a valid initarg for a slot? 00:16:01 I'm getting the compile-time error "Invalid initialization argument: :DOCUMENTATION" 00:16:47 Actually, I'm getting the compile time error "Invalid initialization argument: :documenAtation", emphasis mine. :( 00:17:03 *kristof* promises himself to tab-complete from now on 00:18:07 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 00:18:30 Axioplase: you can put your project under ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 00:20:26 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e260:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:26:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:29:52 zRecursive: I'll probably do from now, I I'm pretty sure that current directory was read by deafault. Until I didn somehting some day and broke it... 00:30:02 how to force clisp to always compile? 00:31:39 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 00:31:48 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:32:26 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 00:34:05 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:37:33 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:38:00 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:40:46 Axioplase: quickproject adds it. 00:42:41 Axioplase: it has never automatically loaded from the current directory 00:42:47 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 00:45:25 -!- milosn [~milosn@85.64.17.152.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:45:34 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:14 Xach: hum. Then I must have screwed somehting hen I ran quickproject, or later. 00:50:21 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 00:50:40 Axioplase: if you quickload something you create with quickproject in the same session, it will work. quickproject temporarily extends the registry. 00:50:58 It doesn't work from a fresh session unless the project is in an already-configured location 00:51:14 -!- lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:56:26 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 00:58:45 Quadresce [~Quadresce@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:04:05 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 01:05:00 -!- alexherb1 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-57-146.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 01:08:30 -!- foreignFunction1 is now known as foreignFunction 01:10:32 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 01:10:53 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 01:12:14 -!- lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:13:50 -!- echo-area [~user@114.254.107.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:53 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:15:24 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 01:15:46 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 01:21:16 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-181-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:21:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:22:29 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:7c19:c895:75fc:b1c3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:01 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 01:24:08 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:24:28 Xach: and what would be a clean way to add the current directory to the valid locations? 01:25:41 Maybe push the current dir to asdf:*something-registry* in my sbcl's config? 01:27:19 Oh, ha 01:27:25 He just answered that question for me 01:27:37 Axioplase: sure, you can do (pushnew #p"/media/D/qachina/" asdf:*central-registry*) 01:29:06 Axioplase: in sbclrc you can add (push '*default-pathname-defaults* asdf:*central-registry*) so that asdf checks the directory you're currently working in. 01:29:21 great, thanks 01:29:44 Axioplase: The quote is important :P 01:34:21 kristof: it works, great! 01:34:46 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[town] 01:37:38 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 01:39:01 -!- Axioplase [~pied@216-13-250-250.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:40:23 Axioplase [~pied@216-13-250-250.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:43 -!- Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-181-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:01:05 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [] 02:02:54 Oh! 02:03:06 ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.1.13-linux-x64/usr/share/common-lisp 02:03:29 /source 02:03:38 that's where sbcl stores its object files. Finally found it :) 02:03:42 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 02:04:44 And asdf makes sure that if the source has been modified, then it will recompile, right? I assume that that's a part of the fasl file format 02:05:04 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 02:08:51 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-53-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:37 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:58 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:11:10 -!- Axioplase [~pied@216-13-250-250.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:16:13 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:17:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:21:45 gko_ [~gko@218-161-19-128.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:00 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:32 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:12 Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has joined #lisp 02:32:06 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:32:18 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:44:03 kristof: no. 02:44:39 kristof: sbcl doesn't do anything special when it outputs fasls. it puts them wherever asdf specifies. asdf has all the logic for when and what to recompile. 02:45:27 until the past few years, fasl files were output alongside source files. that can cause problems when multiple implementations use the same default name for fasl files. 02:45:55 e.g. is foo.fasl from FooCL or BarCL? get it wrong and you get an error loading it. 02:46:17 making some implementation data part of the output pathname helps reduce conflicts likethat. 02:46:59 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:47:52 -!- tic is now known as mikaelj 02:48:55 hrs 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has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:03:03 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:32 -!- effy [~x@114.246.86.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:05:10 effy [~x@114.246.86.2] has joined #lisp 05:05:45 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:26 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 05:10:03 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 05:12:05 -!- gko_ [~gko@218-161-19-128.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 05:14:12 how confusing, I kept reading kristof's msg as the SBCL maintainer guy, I'm beginning to suspect that is now not the case 05:19:23 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:06 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:29:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.207.242] has joined #lisp 05:29:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.207.242] has quit [Changing host] 05:29:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:33:05 alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:33:30 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 05:38:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:39:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.250] has joined #lisp 05:39:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.250] has quit [Changing host] 05:39:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:42:04 Guthur: explain? 05:42:07 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:02 He thought he was Krystof 05:43:13 Ah 05:44:19 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:17 what's the way to get a local version of a library to shadow the upstream version? (with quicklisp) 05:52:22 ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 05:53:26 thanks 06:00:09 hm, I must have borked my quicklisp installation then 06:04:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:05:49 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:01 -!- w|t [~ok@unaffiliated/wt/x-8228070] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:09:05 w|t [~ok@unaffiliated/wt/x-8228070] has joined #lisp 06:14:02 -!- w|t [~ok@unaffiliated/wt/x-8228070] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:15:06 w|t [~ok@unaffiliated/wt/x-8228070] has joined #lisp 06:16:03 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:17:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:21:41 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:21:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:22:20 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has 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[~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:59:43 does ASDF:INITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY extend or override the existing registry config? 08:59:43 mathrick, memo from kristof: Yesterday (I think it was yesterday?) you mentioned something about shared libraries for common lisp. What would this look like? Is that different from simply fasls? 08:59:43 mathrick, memo from beach: I implemented an incremental version of READ as part of the Common Lisp syntax analyzer for Second Climacs. I think this is a step in the right direction, but there is much work to be done of course. 09:00:10 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-czmrjyhhojjvglcw] has joined #lisp 09:00:10 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-czmrjyhhojjvglcw] has quit [Changing host] 09:00:10 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:00:28 ie. I want to add specific config sexps from a non-default init file, in a tree that specifically doesn't use ~/.config 09:01:29 -!- patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has quit [Quit: Exiting HexChat] 09:02:29 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-11-211.bla800.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:03:19 lisperovich [d4fc7588@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.252.117.136] has joined #lisp 09:06:08 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:06:37 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: resttime] 09:09:52 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:00 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 09:18:22 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 09:19:03 aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:20:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:51 OldContrarian [~OldContra@94.234.170.169] has joined #lisp 09:24:27 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-57-66.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:24:50 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:25:03 Good morning! 09:27:27 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 09:29:13 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 09:30:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:33:36 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:30 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:14 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@94.234.170.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:33 protist_ [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:36:35 OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-5eeaaaa9-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:37:29 -!- protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:40:37 vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:04 nike [~nike@117.209.204.167] has joined #lisp 09:45:06 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:09 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-234-131.w109-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:47:23 sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:704f:fc0a:fcc4:f51a] has joined #lisp 09:47:24 Good morning everyone! 09:47:46 beach: Good morning! 09:48:04 mathrick: Now do you see why I would like for someone to write a better manual f ASDF? 09:50:08 keen_ [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:51:50 -!- sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:704f:fc0a:fcc4:f51a] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:53 -!- shadowfax [uid22336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ocbzicepwummlyuh] has quit [Changing host] 09:52:53 shadowfax [uid22336@unaffiliated/gluegadget] has joined #lisp 09:52:53 -!- shadowfax [uid22336@unaffiliated/gluegadget] has quit [Changing host] 09:52:53 shadowfax [uid22336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ocbzicepwummlyuh] has joined #lisp 09:54:06 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.52.75] has joined #lisp 09:54:06 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.52.75] has quit [Changing host] 09:54:06 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:54:27 -!- protist_ [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:01:29 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e260:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 10:02:50 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:18 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:26 -!- devon [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:04:34 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 10:06:08 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:46 -!- Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:46 -!- BnMcGn [~ben@66.244.241.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:47 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:47 -!- eagleflo [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:47 -!- nialo` [~bcoburn@bcoburn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:47 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:47 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@198.178.121.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:07:07 jking [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:08 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:08 stopbit [~stopbit@198.178.121.206] has joined #lisp 10:07:16 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:21 nialo` [~bcoburn@bcoburn.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:25 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:27 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:45 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:07 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:11 eagleflo [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 10:08:39 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-5eeaaaa9-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:08:43 BnMcGn [~ben@66.244.241.97] has joined #lisp 10:08:45 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:09:29 OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 10:11:28 -!- davorb [uid17780@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tfsxafzjeqyemnrg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:47 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 10:11:51 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:44 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:14:03 -!- keen_ is now known as blackenedgold 10:14:20 davorb [uid17780@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hllvmgbiqrmwdwia] has joined #lisp 10:15:12 -!- blackenedgold [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has left #lisp 10:18:14 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:23:42 -!- shadowfax is now known as gluegadget 10:25:47 beach: yeah, I do 10:26:07 mathrick: Hey! Been busy lately? 10:26:09 for the record, while I now know what I should be able to achieve, I still haven't succeeded at actually making it work 10:26:26 With ASDF? 10:26:31 yep 10:26:51 I can't for my life figure out what the manual is supposed to mean. 10:26:54 beach: a bit, yeah. Doing a few things so that I can finalise a job offer I got and get employed if everything goes well 10:27:09 Crossing fingers here. 10:27:16 When will we know? 10:27:31 as soon as I can get this done 10:27:47 Ah, better let you get to work then. 10:27:51 it's a complex series of things that I need to push out the way 10:28:15 beach: what I'm trying to do with ASDF is to make sure it looks for the local systems and local quicklisp installation in a project 10:28:26 and for the life of me, I can't figure out how to make it so 10:28:40 *beach* is not the least surprised. 10:29:19 oh finally 10:29:33 turns out ASDF silently ignores non-existent config paths 10:29:44 sensible, but makes it kinda hard to check if I'm doing things right 10:29:50 Indeed. 10:30:27 Maybe a :check-config-paths t option would be useful. 10:46:59 ARGH 10:47:07 now it overrides instead of extending the config 10:47:09 WHY ASDF, WHY 10:47:28 Wow! 10:48:57 beaumonta [~abeaumont@89.130.60.253] has joined #lisp 10:49:11 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 10:54:09 devon [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has joined #lisp 10:54:50 mmm, it seems that Allegro IDE on Mac needs X11? 11:05:11 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:10:58 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:08 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:17:30 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B21B4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:57 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:58 michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.48.117] has joined #lisp 11:30:19 vap1 [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:26 -!- vap1 [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:35:49 sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:704f:fc0a:fcc4:f51a] has joined #lisp 11:36:11 ok the Express Edition will not even quickload pgloader 11:36:12 done 11:40:36 -!- sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:704f:fc0a:fcc4:f51a] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:46:33 sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 11:47:09 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:26 (meaning I'm done with evaluating it) 11:59:17 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B21B4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:17 -!- motionman is now known as AmazingOverlord 12:04:49 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:06:52 -!- OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:06 dim: why were you looking at allegro? 12:07:09 OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:08:10 if you want to distribute anything, ACL is not particularly good a choice because of their obnoxious licensing. LispWorks is much saner and doesn't require you to pay royalties on distributed binaries 12:08:21 out of curiosity for full lisp IDE 12:09:18 LispWorks failed to load pgloader too, because of some dependencies, one of them has been fixed, the other was finding the sqlite module to load 12:09:28 very bad luck with both ACL and LW for me 12:10:15 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:06 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:13:01 -!- Guest61885 is now known as knob 12:14:23 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:14:44 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:16 -!- revolve [~steve@199.19.119.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:23 revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 pootler [mervyn@c1pe.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:36 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:25:42 -!- AmazingOverlord [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 12:26:59 I don't understand why people want to pay for ACL or LW when there is a better product called SBCL and Emacs which are free and have optional commercial support 12:34:00 lman: partly for things like AllegroGraph and KnowledgeWorks, which have no free counterpart. 12:34:31 lman: And I don't know about Allegro CL, but the LispWorks IDE is very nice and has well-integrated tracing, profiling, debugging, etc. 12:34:50 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.62.224] has joined #lisp 12:35:22 I'm not sure from whom you could get SBCL commercial support, either. Every expert I can think of is employed full-time on non-SBCL stuff. 12:36:13 You can get pretty decent community support if your desires are mainstream enough 12:37:33 yeah, +1 to what Xach said 12:38:04 I'm just trying to decide if there's something better than Emacs and Slime for lisp noobs 12:38:20 learning Emacs at the same time as lisp might be a little too demanding 12:39:19 but I'm unimpressed by ACL and will have to test LW again later, it wouldn't load some informatimago code (fixed already) 12:40:39 for a +3000 that cost a license you can pay many programmers to implement what you need 12:41:30 won't make it available already 12:41:35 as in *today* 12:41:52 so the answer seems to be that newcomers to lisp should probably learn Emacs and setup Slime too 12:42:49 learning emacs+slime is a good thing for you lisp career 12:42:59 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 and it is not that hard 12:43:07 I know, right? 12:43:08 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:16 it just makes the sell so much harder 12:43:51 why? installing slime is a question of 10min at most 12:44:10 it is even included in Debian derivatives: apt-get install slime 12:44:14 learning Emacs for someone who's used to IDE and Studios? 12:44:23 lman: configuring things takes time. 12:44:51 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:44:52 emacs+slime+quicklisp should not need more than 10m 12:45:00 (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") is how I install it 12:45:03 it's perfect 12:45:20 you only need to already have Emacs, a Lisp implementation, and Quicklisp 12:45:37 lman: well, it took about a month for me to properly set everything up. 12:45:46 and installing and setting up isn't even the beginning of the problem 12:46:20 hitecnologys: why so much? I teached a friend and he was programming in lisp in 30 min 12:46:22 when I tell friends CL is so much better, some of them will believe me or even trust me on this, then they want to try it. and then they're like "actually it's not for me" 12:46:30 I wanted to see how to solve that if at all possible 12:46:46 lman: Speaking from experience, I can say that installing quicklisp may take several days if you're unlucky. 12:46:47 so first rule: don't change too much of their habits 12:47:08 OldContrarian: wow!! several days? 12:47:25 -!- nike [~nike@117.209.204.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:28 curl -O http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 12:47:32 (quicklisp-quickstart:install) 12:47:38 (ql:add-to-init-file) 12:47:43 that's all!!! 12:47:51 so you already have choosen a lisp implementation, that you know how to use? 12:47:59 lman: Yes, in my case I got an error message that took several days and the eventual help of Xach to decode (it was a conflict between asdf versions, somehow) 12:48:24 lman: In my case, (quicklisp-quickstart:install) failed. 12:48:51 OldContrarian: that is another history, I suppose a bug in quicklisp 12:49:45 Perhaps. Or perhaps the guide I was following had a slight error in it, or perhaps I did things out of order. Point is, things sometime take longer than the ideal time. 12:50:17 well, we are programmers, that is the risk 12:50:35 -!- Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:46 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:57 I had problems installing rails and had to compile a new version of Ruby 12:51:16 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:51:20 the same happens with any language, including the universal C 12:53:14 lman: sorry, I was afk. First of all, I'm just slow. Secondly, there are many things that I usually adjust to suit my needs so it takes that much time. 12:56:31 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.62.140] has joined #lisp 13:02:17 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:05 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05:39 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ygosgmpdzunorhjs] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ygosgmpdzunorhjs] has quit [Changing host] 13:05:44 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:06:18 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:08:38 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 13:09:56 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:15 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:39 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:24:02 sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:704f:fc0a:fcc4:f51a] has joined #lisp 13:25:02 Taking three days to install Quicklisp is a one-in-a-thousand fluke. 13:25:23 It's a bummer that whomever looked first at the problem didn't see the package system problem right away. 13:25:27 -!- zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26:19 dim: So, why is CL so much better? 13:27:13 zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has joined #lisp 13:27:48 keen_ [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:28:40 Xach: Right. I'm not in any way blaming quicklisp, only my own lack of knowledge of it and of Lisp in general. 13:29:02 -!- sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:704f:fc0a:fcc4:f51a] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:29:57 Zhivago: because of macros mainly, makes the language very powerful for big projects 13:31:28 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.62.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:08 lman: That's your reason -- I'm wondering what dim's reasons are. 13:35:35 oh, it just works for me 13:35:59 I can see how that might not work for your friends. :) 13:36:58 I've been using python and C for a decade, then played a lot with Emacs Lisp, and then wanted to find something more modern and powerful than C but without the main problems of python (slow, no threads because of GIL, no ad hoc syntaxes all over the place, better REPL support) 13:37:14 -!- baboon` [~user@188.73.8.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:31 I found CL, and discovered an Object Model I like, which I didn't expect anymore, and the condition system, and so many great things 13:37:33 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:37:48 CLOS is great, yes 13:38:24 handler-bind, restart-case, that's magic 13:38:58 even defstruct is really nice, the REPL is awesome, and you're still playing with compiled-to-machine-code code 13:39:00 Is it possible to give a brief answer to the question why Lisp is (significantly, I assume) faster than Python? 13:39:25 I would guess 30 years of advance? 13:39:29 OldContrarian: well, it depends. 13:39:41 and also the language has been made to make it possible 13:39:44 OldContrarian: one can make Lisp slower. 13:40:00 oh, another thing that I love in lisp is how you have access to the whole thing at read time, compile time, load time and run time 13:41:00 why? installing slime is a question of 10min at most <-- how the times have changed 13:41:31 it used to be a few hours if you were unlucky, and every few months because the CVS would've changed enough that you basically needed to redo your setup from scratch 13:41:43 OldContrarian: Lisp is usually compiled. If you use PyPy or something like that, with enough patience you can make Python code run as fast as Lisp one. 13:41:44 Python is 1) not designed for performance, and 2) not implemented by people who know how to make dynamic languages fast 13:41:47 python is very much attached to its C interpreter, while lisp is usually made in lisp itself, compiling to binary 13:42:13 Interpreters can actually be damn fast if you have the right language 13:42:23 See lua 13:42:33 Ok, thanks for the answers guys. 13:42:37 lman: to be precise, CPython is attached to C. 13:42:40 yet an interpreter cannot be as fast as a compiler ever 13:42:52 A good interpreter is faster than a poor compiler. 13:43:05 *hitecnologys* agrees with ggole 13:43:10 Yeah, what ggole said. 13:43:13 SBCL includes an interpreter to make certain things faster. 13:43:43 Xach: what things? 13:43:46 ggole: it must be a veery poor compiler to that to happen 13:43:49 yeah, interpreter and compiler is all blury nowadays anyways, see Chrome Javascript with JIT and AOT and mixed techniques in between 13:44:16 JIT is a compiler 13:44:28 lman: the compiler has by definition no knowledge of what happens at run-time. a good interpreter will make use of that. See also Hotspot for the JVM 13:45:07 hitecnologys: the compiler is relatively slow, so for certain things the compile time plus the run time is bigger than eval time. 13:45:22 I don't think that is by definition, and a JIT is a compiler 13:46:11 that's where it's all blurry in my mind 13:46:42 Xach: I see. 13:46:45 a compiler that kicks in automatically at run time is not an interpreter? well, news to me... 13:47:24 dim: JIT is a compiler that behaves like an interpreter. Confusing and useless, yeah. 13:47:34 no it is not, an interpreter executes code as it reads it 13:47:34 I think we need better glossary to actually think about interpreter and compilers, and we also need to realise that any given language isn't either interpreted nor compiled, it's all a more complex mix than that 13:48:12 lman: where is it written that it's forbiden to the interpreter to compile the code in order to be able to execute it as it reads it? 13:48:39 I can't understand why would anyone need JIT. What's wrong with compiling all at once before executing it? 13:48:46 dim: in no place, but then that is an interpreter that uses a compiler ;) 13:48:54 Compilation is translation: there's usually no translation step in an interpreter 13:49:05 hitecnologys: you get poor code if you do that 13:49:13 Xach: I answered you on reddit. 13:49:33 ggole: what do you mean by poor code? Poor machine code? Why's that? 13:49:34 (For certain kinds of dynamic behaviour, anyway.) 13:49:46 Because if you compile AOT, you must emit machine code to handle any case. 13:50:01 in CL we have the function "compile", to make the distinction between interpreted code and compiled one 13:50:14 but some implementations like SBCL do compile almost everything 13:50:31 hitecnologys: lman: http://wingolog.org/archives/2011/07/05/v8-a-tale-of-two-compilers is a very good read to blur some more interpreter, compiler, JIT and AOT ideas 13:50:42 It's far more difficult to make (guarded) assumptions that allow optimisations if you have to compile ahead of time 13:50:59 dim: V8 is compiled at the end 13:51:03 depends 13:51:21 well, apparently, from my understanding of that Wingo's article 13:51:42 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:51:42 V8 is always compiled 13:52:10 There's a naive splat method compiler, and an aggressive optimising one for hot paths. 13:52:31 note that python is also compiled, but to bytecode, not to machine binary, and therefore it is so slow 13:52:39 or maybe http://wingolog.org/archives/2011/10/28/javascriptcore-the-webkit-js-implementation was the article I wanted to find again 13:53:10 lman: Java sometimes beat C with its own bytecode compiler and JVM, I think 13:53:11 (Interestingly, the version of V8 which kickstarted the whole faster javascript war lacked the optimising compiler.) 13:53:20 so I don't think you can say that bytecode makes things slow 13:53:37 dim: java compiles two times: first to bytecode and then to machine in its JIT 13:53:57 try to disable JIT and you'll see how slow it is 13:53:58 lman: you could just as well consider python's bytecode to be a preprocessing step to make parsing faster, which is pretty much exactly what it is semantically 13:54:03 oh yeah, JIT is a compiler. 13:54:17 so whether it's compiled or interpreted depends on how you squint at it 13:54:21 mathrick: sounds a little like elisp bytecode 13:54:46 yeah, it's similar, except that elisp will actually execute even slower if not byte-compiled 13:54:56 mathrick: "compiled to bytecode and then interpreted" sounds accurate to me 13:54:56 python only takes a load-time hit 13:55:10 That's mostly because of macros 13:55:18 elisp will expand them each time through unless byte compiled. 13:55:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for will expand them each time through unless byte compiled.. 13:55:37 (Which is crazy, but there you have it.) 13:55:44 someone please put specbot out of its misery 13:56:03 the Olde Yeller way? 13:56:31 specbot: what's up? 13:56:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:57:15 most languages todays are compiled, the real difference we should make is between bytecode compiled and machine code compiled, Python is ussually bytecode and CL is usually machine code 13:57:23 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:57:35 and CL does have a lot of experience in that, more than 30 years of being machine compiled 13:58:10 and inheriting from previous lisp implementations too I would guess 13:58:12 I often wonder how much faster CL could be with a strong JIT. 13:58:43 mathrick: apparently, he's so sad that he doesn't even respond to me. 13:58:48 ggole: CL uses JIT from 30+ years 13:59:35 Every CL implementation I've ever looked at is AOT (although at runtime). 13:59:51 ggole: CLISP uses JIT. 14:00:15 is (funcall (lambda (...) ...)) AOT or JIT? 14:00:28 Up to the implementation. 14:00:55 (funcall (compile nil (lambda ...))) would be run-time AOT then? 14:01:10 Yes. 14:01:14 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:14 Up to the implementation, but probably. 14:01:48 JIT means, literally, just in time. 14:02:03 As in compiling code can be interleaved with executing it. 14:02:06 AOT and JIT are very similar terms, they tend to confuse each other 14:02:55 Right. 14:03:12 don't say AOT, say JIC 14:03:15 "Just in case" 14:03:19 :P 14:03:51 well Just In Case would actually be AOT, really, wouldn't it? 14:04:02 ah yes what you said 14:04:10 hitecnologys: CLISP looks like it compiles functions AOT the first time they are evaluated 14:04:37 ggole: CLISP compiles to byte-code. 14:04:52 don't all common lisp implementations? 14:05:03 Nope. 14:05:26 MikeSeth: SBCL compiles directly to machine code, and therefore it is so fast 14:05:38 hitecnologys: you just told me it uses JIT: and their page mentions it (with some caveats). 14:05:55 ggole: it uses JIT to compile to machine code, AFAIK. 14:06:12 lman: no I meant, don't all CLs compile? Can you even implement a fully interpreted CL? 14:06:14 ggole: well, if you want JIT for sure, take a look at ABCL. 14:06:15 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:22 oh, also, to get back to why CL, it's mainly becauses it pushes what's a reasonable hack way further than anything else I've played with. 14:06:36 MikeSeth: sure you can 14:06:41 I don't think this is what I meant by JIT: just emitting code at runtime is *not* what I am talking about (although that's a time-honored implementation technique, to be sure). 14:06:51 alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:07:14 Anyway, forget it: there are CL implementations that are very good, and that's what really matters. 14:07:46 well all of them are very good, albeit at different things, is the usual reading here 14:08:26 -!- lisperovich [d4fc7588@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.252.117.136] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:08:32 I've only tried SBCL and CCL myself, ECL and ABCL and CLISP seem to be the other main ones, maybe with CMUCL. Then Allegro and LispWorks. Others to add? 14:08:46 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programs-are-fastest.php 14:08:53 sbcl is the 4th position 14:08:56 which is impressive 14:09:04 mmm, is it possible to build a .jar for a lisp application with ABCL? 14:09:10 I should maybe see about that 14:09:24 dim: probably yes. 14:10:14 lman: last I had a look, most implementations in CL over there were quite badly done performances wise 14:10:33 lman: spend a couple of hours on the problems over there and move us to the pole position! 14:11:11 Hmm, I can't understand the graphs there 14:11:21 harish [~harish@175.156.196.163] has joined #lisp 14:11:22 The first one lacks C, C++, etc 14:11:28 yeah, they changed the graphics, now it looks horrible 14:12:29 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:12:48 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=java&data=u64q 14:12:56 Java7 tends to be faster than SBCL here it seems 14:13:16 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:13:33 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python3&lang2=sbcl&data=u64q 14:13:42 sbcl is about 18x faster than python3 14:13:51 sometimes even 58x faster 14:14:36 what about trying to beat Java rather than laughing at python? 14:14:40 That's some awfully low level lisp 14:14:44 75% of the time is 50x or more faster 14:15:15 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java&lang2=sbcl&data=u64q 14:15:26 *ggole* is referring specifically to http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/program.php?test=mandelbrot&lang=sbcl&id=1 14:15:36 sbcl and java are usually equally faster, but I'm sure that SBCL requires less memory 14:15:40 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:16:32 oh seems like I read it backwards 14:17:20 let's try and beat Haskell then? http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=ghc&lang2=sbcl&data=u64q 14:17:37 or C http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=gcc&lang2=sbcl&data=u64q 14:18:08 That's not Haskell: it's C written in Haskell 14:18:31 hehe 14:18:40 well, the point here is: python, ruby, perl and the rest of the dynamic languages can't beat Lisp, and Lisp, being dynamic, can beat Java 14:18:41 bits <- malloc :: IO(Ptr Byte) Yep, real high level functional programming there 14:19:01 (The SBCL entry is guilty of much the same thing, of course.) 14:19:40 and I'm pretty sure that if you don't put a lot of energy on optimizing C, Lisp an C are more or less the same speed in practical terms 14:21:34 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=regexdna 14:21:50 seems the lisp there is slower than perl and python and ruby 14:26:24 You also need to consider the program. 14:26:53 lman: Well, that's hard to judge, since simply writing a C program in the first place is an exercise in optimization in many respects. 14:27:00 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 Zhivago: many people are using C++ just because it is popular and don't ussually make any optimizations 14:29:02 You said C a moment ago, make up your mind. 14:29:19 yeah, C or C++ 14:29:33 they mention that you need to implement the same algorithm but don't provide specs, so that you actually have to read an existing one I guess? 14:29:35 Also, your argument above regarding dynamic languages can't beat lisp, and lisp being dynamic can beat java seems like gibberish. 14:29:52 dim: Presumably you take another implementation as a reference. :) 14:30:19 i don't why it is gibberish 14:30:25 know* 14:30:34 it is a fact 14:30:40 Zhivago: yeah, that might explain why most code is crappy tho 14:30:47 Well, that's probably why you produced it -- I suggest taking a critical look at what you said. 14:31:10 Why can't python, ruby, perl, and the rest of the dynamic languages beat lisp? What does this even mean? 14:31:40 it means that lisp has better implementations, and subjectly a better language too 14:32:31 And lisp has worse implementations. 14:33:12 If you choose based only on quality of implementation, you might end up with Java or Javascript... 14:33:12 Zhivago: compre worse with the worse and better with the betters, and most probably CL will continue to beat them 14:33:26 KaiQ [~localhost@194.94.87.106] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 lman: what do you think of lisp poor results here then? http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=regexdna#about 14:33:31 (Or Lua.) 14:33:40 lman: Why? 14:33:49 LuaJIT is said to be awesome 14:34:10 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:34:12 Yeah, it's pretty fast. 14:34:14 dim: they are a minority in comparison with the average 14:34:20 and we're talking about averages 14:34:29 you are. 14:35:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:35:04 aren't you? 14:36:13 I don't know, I've lost track. I'm just wondering about some stupid benchmark games now 14:36:33 It's what happens when you're vague about metrics and confuse languages with implementations. 14:36:41 they are not stupid if you're concerned about speed 14:39:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:44 well I wish I could find the specs to implement one of them 14:41:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.62.140] has joined #lisp 14:41:58 Well, they seem to indicate reference implementations -- have a look at the bottom of http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/performance.php?test=nbody#about for example. 14:42:30 teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has joined #lisp 14:42:48 they give an input file, a link to another benchmark that produces it, and the expected output file 14:42:50 that's all I see 14:43:01 Look at the bottom of that page. 14:43:07 oh, and some DNA related terms in the middle with no explaination 14:43:13 that's where I'm looking 14:43:21 "Each program should model the orbits of Jovian planets, using the same simple symplectic-integrator - see the Java program." 14:43:21 sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:43:31 Ah, a different one. 14:44:03 Just review three other implementations -- the algorithm should be clear. 14:44:14 in the regexdna text they say e.g. read all of a redirected FASTA format file from stdin, and record the sequence length 14:44:26 they don't define what's a sequence and how to compute its length 14:44:40 yet they insist that you should use the same algorithm 14:44:46 Heh, javascript does well on that one. But presumably that's because people have tuned the crap out of its regex implementation. 14:44:46 that's just stupid in my book 14:45:22 Why? 14:45:40 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:39 It's library benchmarking. Libraries are very important, so that seems reasonable to me. 14:47:05 I'd use the javascript implementation as an algorothmic reference -- it seems the cleanest. 14:48:11 -!- jking is now known as j_king 14:48:37 Although now I think I need to look up the order of evaluation in the ecmascript spec to see if it's well defined. 14:49:15 last I read about it, it's not. 14:49:46 or maybe comparable to C. which is really sloppily defined, to help compiler writers do whatever they want to in terms of optimisations... poor semantics 14:50:21 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 14:50:24 JS is left-to-right for almost everything, iirc. 14:51:08 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:51:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:51:22 reading the Ada implementation now 14:51:37 Yeah, it's well defined, which is nice. 14:51:45 That's one area where scheme screwed up, imho. 14:53:22 It doesn't provide much in terms of optimisations, too. 14:55:38 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:56:02 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:22 the Java version is the easiest to read it seems 14:56:41 how much does it show that I don't want to get anything done today? 14:57:53 fredmorcos [~fredmorco@89.137.106.243] has joined #lisp 14:59:11 dim: install dwarf fortress 14:59:49 I might as well just watch a movie then 14:59:59 *dim* not much of a gamer 15:01:35 mmhm 15:01:57 if there's one game that'd be made TRULY awesome by an embedded lisp engine, that's dwarf fortress 15:02:08 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:02:19 too bad it's closed source 15:02:27 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:42 I still have the project of maybe building up a game with a lisp engine, where the only way to play is to actually program in lisp, but that would be a teaching thing 15:03:09 to pass a level you would have to write some code, etc 15:03:16 Sounds like Casting Spels in Lisp, almost. 15:04:35 yeah but I want something really visual, where you control something funny 15:04:55 of course I'm really bad at visuals 15:04:56 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 15:05:34 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:05:35 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:07:45 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:08:29 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:09:35 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:17:04 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:58 root_empire [~michael_l@113.139.74.110] has joined #lisp 15:20:37 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.48.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:20:48 I'm making a MUD (multiplayer text adventure game) in Python. I want some users to be able to edit the game code while they're in the game (not uncommon in MUDs). I've been told it's difficult to sandbox Python for this purpose. Would something like that be easier if I wrote the whole thing in Lisp? 15:21:19 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:45 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 15:22:18 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-192.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:37 well, let's start with something simpler. what language will your users prefer to code in? 15:24:18 -!- fredmorcos [~fredmorco@89.137.106.243] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:43 you could simply write an interpreter for that language, in python or lisp or whatever. 15:24:56 I don't care what they want, they'd be coding in the same language the MUD is written in. 15:25:02 =) 15:25:07 -!- root_empire [~michael_l@113.139.74.110] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:25:53 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:27:31 sandboxing in any language like that is nontrivial, and if you don't completely trust users, don't do it that way 15:27:48 nontrivial = understatement for "impossible" 15:27:57 root_empire [~michael_l@113.139.74.110] has joined #lisp 15:28:02 Not strictly true, it's trivial in LPC 15:28:27 what is LPC 15:28:33 But then again, LPC was created for that exact purpose. 15:28:55 and somehow i'm guessing it's not what the underlying system is written in 15:29:29 You're right, I just realized that's why it's trivial in LPC. 15:29:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:59 If I made my own lisp engine in my MUD (like it's done with LPC on LP-MUDs), then that would be trivial to sandbox too. 15:30:20 Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has joined #lisp 15:30:45 if you did it right 15:32:18 Well, I guess I was hoping that there was some sort of mechanism (or Lisp implementation) that made this possible... 15:32:20 writing eval for a lisp-like language, in a lisp, is reasonably easy 15:32:42 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@194.94.87.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:15 sixbitslacker: that however is likely not sufficient for sandboxing in this case, where you need strict control of how many instructions are executing and how much memory is being allocated etc 15:33:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 Hmm, true. 15:33:39 you could try http://mumble.net/~jar/pseudoscheme/ 15:34:00 oGMo: I don't really need that. 15:34:09 OldContrarian: then you don't really want sandboxing 15:34:20 and your users will feel free to exploit the system 15:34:29 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:34:31 sixbitslacker: that appears to be a translator 15:34:32 oGMo: LPC doesn't have any such restrictions, a "rogue" coder could eat away at as much CPU time and memory as he or she wanted. 15:34:46 OldContrarian: then it's not sandboxed either 15:35:40 i haven't used mudos for decades, but that seems weird. no restrictions? 15:35:46 oGMo: All right, I'll rephrase the question. Can I prevent my in-game lisp coders from messing with my system (accessing non-game files, etc)? 15:35:56 I think I may be asking for chroot, I don't know :-) 15:36:40 Oh, you know about MudOS? Well, I suppose there's a timeout if memory serves, if your code doesn't return within a set amount of seconds it's interrupted. 15:36:57 doubtful, though something like cl-javascript which compiles limited input may be sufficient 15:37:04 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 15:37:29 assuming it doesn't have an escape-to-CL eval or similar 15:37:36 But hmm, chroot isn't sufficient, I also want to be able to control access (read: implement permissions) for game files... 15:38:05 why would you do it that way and not implement an API for accessing whatever data was necessary? 15:38:26 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: happening closed by computer explosion] 15:38:57 Well... hmm. 15:39:02 -!- root_empire [~michael_l@113.139.74.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:34 I realise I keep thinking about having everything executing in one process, like MudOS does it. Then everything (or nothing) is restricted to the same chroot jail, API or otherwise. 15:40:04 and i'm not sure why you wouldn't be doing this into sqlite (or even pg) 15:40:13 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.62.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:54 I've never looked into sqlite, so I don't know how that would change anything? 15:41:44 well you'd be providing api access to the data, not having everything read and interpret files all over 15:41:53 root_empire [~michael_l@113.139.74.110] has joined #lisp 15:42:38 then instead of thousands of nondescript files you could have nice tools for showing your world structure etc 15:43:03 Yes, I'm with you so far, but are you saying sqlite would help me with permission checking? So that one coder can access some data that other coders can't? 15:43:37 no, you'd implement your own record permissions 15:43:49 And have one extremely nondescript file 15:43:50 that could also be "yes, you'd implement your own record permissions" ;) 15:44:30 oGMo: I guess I wasn't planning on using sqlite, because MudOS doesn't. And it's so much easier to call player->save() than having to create a table for players, and then adding / removing columns when the player object is changed in the future... 15:44:32 heddwch: hardly, you no longer have a thousand files with some custom binary format, you have one db file (or db) you can access with a myriad of tools 15:44:52 oGMo: True 15:45:19 OldContrarian: is MudOS defunct? i'm not sure why you would reimplement it exactly as-is and not just use it 15:45:21 OldContrarian: But you'll be doing all of that anyway, it's just whether you back it with the FS or a DB 15:45:47 And once you implement however you feel like doing it, it's still player->save() 15:45:58 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:46:11 that, basically 15:46:21 oGMo: Yes, MudOS is defunct (as far as I know), and besides, it's more fun to make your own. It's not like this project of mine will ever be completed anyway, so I'm just planning on having fun with it until I don't anymore. 15:46:35 Indecipherable [~Indy@41.13.182.155] has joined #lisp 15:46:40 you would not have everything touching the DB directly or you're doing it just as wrong as everything touching files directly 15:47:36 heddwch: No, if there's no DB, I don't have to maintain DB tables. player->save() just saves the player object's properties (whatever they may be at the time) into a text file that can later be read with player->load() 15:48:07 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:15 OldContrarian: and (mud:save player) would do the same, except it'd update a database row instead of a file 15:48:21 oGMo: Yes, of course. Nevertheless, it's easier to save (but not necessarily better) to a plain file than to a DB. 15:48:40 and if you use Pg (possibly sqlite?), you don't have to implement your own locking etc 15:49:10 you mean "i understand files, not databases" 15:49:10 oGMo: No need for locking when everything is just one process with no threads (as MudOS does it). 15:49:38 oGMo: I was a Sybase database manager for 7 years, I think I understand them. 15:49:42 OldContrarian: My point was that the properties might as well be columns, and files might as well be rows, in this case, but you don't get any of the built-in sorting or querying, or manipulation tools like oGMo mentioned 15:50:27 oGMo: But again, player->save() is easier than "create table..." followed by "modify table..." every time the player class is changed. 15:50:36 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:39 Don't you have to write player->save, though? 15:50:45 OldContrarian: you clearly do not if you would create a table for every player 15:50:54 heddwch: No. 15:51:04 er 15:51:17 OldContrarian: have a look at cl-store for a universal serialization library. 15:51:18 misread 15:51:46 OldContrarian: you would likely just want to store key-value stuff at least for a mud 15:51:50 heddch: I use a Python module called Shelves in my current implementation. It can serialize and save any object, no matter what it contains, and then load it again. 15:52:05 i.e. you don't need a fixed table 15:52:17 H4ns: Cool, thanks. 15:52:24 oGMo: and then, what precisely are the "sorting and querying" facilities that you might take advantage of when using a sql database as k/v store? 15:52:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:06 MikeSeth: COMPILE may implement only minimal compilation. This is basically just macro-expansion. So you can have an implementation without a compiler. 15:53:11 oGMo: That's possible. 15:53:46 H4ns: troll question, but in this case the obvious answer is you have various quest-flag values or similar, you need easy indexing of them, and sorting for presentation if you're doing admin work 15:53:47 Anyway, I hate to leave in the middle of an interesting conversation, but I have to go. Thanks for the input guys, and see you around! 15:54:19 oGMo: not a troll question. you're lobbying for database usage without really expressing how it'd help with the problem at hand. 15:54:23 that's stuff you'd need _anyway_, and with a db, you aren't reinventing the wheel 15:54:29 H4ns: that's what all the trolls say 15:55:03 and it has clear value, in that you get structured storage, lots of maintenance tools, indexing, and parallel access, without reinventing all of them, and this was covered above 15:55:36 cl-store is only serialization, and does nothing for indexing or actual access 15:55:57 oGMo: i'm not saying that databases have no value, i'm just not as convinced that the first thing that one should look at when designing a system is a tabular layout for the data. 15:55:59 jewel [~jewel@41.54.66.83] has joined #lisp 15:56:01 (but, useful, even if paired with a db) 15:56:28 "tabular layout" 15:56:29 heh 15:57:47 OldContrarian: Realize you're probably gone by now, but ah, I didn't realize that, although most frameworks let you serialize into SQL also. 15:59:08 H4ns: As has already been mentioned, what he's implementing is pretty much exactly a database, so you're 100% correct, he shouldn't use a database to implement a database. 15:59:18 On the other hand, I think what he actually wanted to implement was a game. 15:59:28 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:30 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:26 you don't need to implement a database for a mud unless you don't have one 16:00:48 oGMo: That's what I was getting at, in an underhanded, sarcastic way =p 16:01:07 heddwch: i misunderstood the point about "db in a db" then ;) 16:01:20 but, then, yes 16:01:20 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:01:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:01:38 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 oGMo: hehe Yea, that's the "I think what he actually wanted to implement was a game." 16:01:51 heddwch: ya 16:02:12 :) 16:02:45 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:04:55 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:01 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:07:23 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:38 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 16:09:05 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@41.13.182.155] has left #lisp 16:12:40 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:13:36 Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has joined #lisp 16:15:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:17:56 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.62.224] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:20:25 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:23:40 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:49 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 16:27:17 Poenikatu [~user@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 16:27:19 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:29 nipra [~nipra@122.177.61.106] has joined #lisp 16:27:57 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 16:32:38 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:54 mmm, I got that regex dna code right, but now I can't find the full length input file to measure speed 16:38:18 ok one need to code the fasta bench and use its output it seems 16:39:25 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:41:00 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-192.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.54.66.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:13 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-192.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: cpc26] 16:45:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:31 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 16:55:10 harish_ [~harish@175.156.234.58] has joined #lisp 16:55:57 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.196.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:57:08 -!- root_empire [~michael_l@113.139.74.110] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:59:01 well, it's way way slower 16:59:17 being very naive and using ppcre to do all the work 17:02:04 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:05:24 -!- harish_ [~harish@175.156.234.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:13:57 denis [~u@109.105.169.13] has joined #lisp 17:15:41 -!- denis [~u@109.105.169.13] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:46 harish_ [~harish@175.156.194.202] 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