00:01:35 hm, where do i need to copy the libssl32.dll to? I use ccl with windows 00:02:07 for cl+ssl 00:02:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:04:25 pierpa [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:05:25 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:06:01 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:29 Quadresce [~Quadresce@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:08:28 \\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition0 00:14:57 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 00:18:47 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-066-137.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:48 heddwch: SBCL is totally dead, no release this month. 00:19:37 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:19:42 On the other hand, clisp is quite alive: nobody said there won't be a release this decade. 00:19:59 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:09 The current version of clisp is 2.49. 00:20:10 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-habrixfrvhuftehn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:30 my school's cluster still has 2.48 00:21:45 and some sbcl from 5 years ago 00:22:05 2.48 is perfectly good. sbcl from 5 years ago is barely usable. 00:23:34 It doesn't run there without some argument i don't remember 00:23:37 Something about memory 00:25:01 funny how things have changed so much since then. 00:28:55 Xach: why do you say that? recent sbcl release are becoming quite good. 00:28:59 Xach: how large is the sum of all ql projects? 00:29:10 Recently there even have been talk of keeping one in stable debian! 00:29:23 Quadresce: more than 300 MB. 00:29:58 sammwch [~androirc@2600:100e:b115:54eb::103] has joined #lisp 00:30:05 So aside from the fact that it's a bit abusive to Xach's hosting, it's not totally unreasonable to have a local copy of it all 00:30:32 What about implementing downloading of quicklisp packages thru BitTorrent? 00:30:49 I've seen an article about getting S3 stuff thru BitTorrent fly by recently. 00:31:03 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B1BE4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:04 clisp is 10 to 20 times slower than sbcl, except for loading the interpreter 00:31:39 sbcl speed is pretty good these days 00:31:45 What about for bignums? 00:32:01 I don't know 00:32:11 sammich [~androirc@2600:100e:b12e:ae18::103] has joined #lisp 00:32:15 Doesn't clisp use gmp? 00:32:21 No 00:32:35 For some reason i had that in my head 00:32:48 Bruno wrote a high class arbitrary precision arithmetic package 00:34:16 in which cases could clisp considered better than sbcl? 00:34:28 Quadresce: if you feel guilty about it, you could donate the $0.025 it costs when you download the whole thing 00:34:35 :) 00:34:37 lman: smaller size probably? 00:34:47 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-xzxdssvugrzuqlua] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 00:34:55 lman: theoretically bootstrapped with a C compiler 00:35:03 -!- sammwch [~androirc@2600:100e:b115:54eb::103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:05 *Xach* is not always successful in getting that to work 00:35:41 Xach, a (ql:download-all) shouldn't be too hard to write I guess 00:35:57 Iman: For a personal project, any case during which you like it better 00:36:11 -!- sammich is now known as sammwch 00:37:57 Quadresce: nope. (map nil 'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems "quicklisp")) would be one possible implementation. 00:37:57 it seems that clisp uses much less memory 00:38:59 I'd like to know which is more optimal to run a web server 00:39:55 I've been told sbcl has better performance 00:40:05 I'd guess SBCL'd be most efficient, if you mean that 00:40:56 Yea, better performance in that context 00:41:06 lman: clisp is better than sbcl for speed and for precision of floating point numbers. 00:41:47 Try in clisp (setf (ext:long-float-digits) 100000) pi 00:41:51 pjb: for speed?? 00:42:03 pjbs gonna pjb 00:42:07 compilation speed, sure. 00:42:26 pjb is a well-known troll/performance artist when it comes to clisp 00:42:30 and compilation is even avoided entirely by default in clisp. 00:42:58 compilation considered harmful 00:43:08 Xach: hey I've had a few instances where very high precision floating point linear algebra was important (: 00:43:18 Now, I must say the current documentation of sbcl looks nice. I should read it 00:43:34 there's new sbcl documentation? 00:43:46 http://www.sbcl.org/manual I don't know how new it is. 00:44:00 looks a lot like how i remember it 00:44:30 might be more detailed i guess 00:46:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:40 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZZzzZ] 00:47:50 -!- sammwch [~androirc@2600:100e:b12e:ae18::103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:06 tmv [~tmv@189.154.145.105] has joined #lisp 00:48:54 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-066-137.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:02 has become sbcl the de-facto implementation? 00:56:50 No 00:57:29 Quadresce: elaborate 00:58:02 What is there to elaborate? People use different implementations, for preference or whatever else 00:58:13 lman: What exactly are you trying to find out? 00:58:28 Try a few implementations and see which one suits your needs better 01:00:26 who is not using sbcl primary here? 01:00:26 lman: clearly, each system for each customer will be integrated with an implementation matching the needs and conditions. 01:00:46 Currently, I'm working on MacOSX applications, so I mostly use ccl. 01:00:56 My scripts are all written in clisp. 01:00:58 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:01:04 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:01:15 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:01:20 I had a job with embedded where I used ecl. 01:01:34 I'm doing some experiments with mobile, with ecl and MoCL. 01:01:57 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 01:02:04 Oh right, I've got a couple of small old web applications running hunchentoot on an old sbcl. 01:02:17 lman: cf. clall ! :-) 01:03:33 I mean http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=7714476de6496760b4601a2c71d020272219df4d&hb=1dcdde5ff32aa83c483f6e0ec6346209fe2d7975&f=clall 01:04:17 -!- Quadresce [~Quadresce@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:22 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:05:37 pjb: ok, thank you 01:06:18 is people here open to participate to a good open source project? 01:06:51 Quadresce [~Quadresce@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:08:01 a better question is: who has time participate to yet another good open source project? 01:10:11 True story 01:10:43 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:02 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:12:55 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@c-98-236-40-212.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:26 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:53 pjb: what project it is? 01:14:18 help logs 01:14:28 or how it is invoked... 01:14:36 i think it is an impresive project 01:14:50 if you want to read: 01:15:02 https://github.com/wetube/wetube-web 01:15:22 I want to make it in lisp 01:16:07 we are in #wetube 01:17:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:19:21 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@c-98-236-40-212.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 01:19:25 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:30 protist [~protist@231.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 01:20:25 lman: there are actually two problems: diffusion (Content delivery network), and finding the resources (building and querying the index). 01:20:46 diffusion should be distributed, eg. bittorrrent 01:21:13 pjb: I have many ideas about that 01:21:18 centralized querying is the real problem (cf. pirate bay, etc). 01:21:26 it should also be implemented in a distributed way. 01:22:11 no centralized querying, clients are connected to several nodes 01:22:12 And further, it should be made extra easy for non-technical users to run their node. 01:22:22 yes, I know 01:24:32 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:26:05 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:29 enupten [~neptune@117.192.94.71] has joined #lisp 01:31:08 ozialien_ [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:45 resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:24 -!- ozialien_ [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:36:37 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:37:45 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@c-98-236-40-212.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:28 JuanDaugherty 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-!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:21:09 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:24:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:24:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:05 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-144-158.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:26:14 Good morning everyone! 05:26:26 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.34] has joined #lisp 05:26:27 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-89-33.prtc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:28:01 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:28:17 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@c-67-169-10-13.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:32:00 alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 Good morning, beach 05:32:17 How's everything? 05:32:43 Fine thanks! You? 05:33:43 Quite well, thank you 05:33:54 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 05:35:46 seangrove [~user@cpe-23-242-158-173.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:07 kristof: How is your implementation of goroutines going? 05:37:29 beach: ha! Not even working on it yet, I was actually just looking at something related to that, though 05:37:40 beach: Don't know if it's obvious but I'm new to common lisp :P 05:38:24 In my opinion it is good to learn by writing something and then showing it to more experienced programmers. 05:38:45 ggole [~ggole@106-68-235-206.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:38:48 Well I'll be sure to show someone when I get around to writing it :) 05:39:26 Sounds good. 05:39:46 beach: There was actually something I wanted to talk to you about, but I can't quite recall it at the moment. :( 05:40:03 No rush. Whenever you remember. 05:40:05 oh, that's right 05:40:34 beach: In a single address space operating system, "processes" simply call functions defined by other processes, yes? 05:41:03 kristof: Well, the term "process" typically implies a separate address space. 05:41:16 beach: I was wondering how one would avoid naming conflicts between processes. Would each process have its own package defined? 05:41:17 kristof: So in a SASOS there would be no processes. 05:41:19 oh, that's true 05:41:27 You'd just load a lot of code and let it run 05:41:45 There would be "threads". 05:41:55 Ok. 05:42:13 And yes, something like the CL package system would be used, but I also favor separate environments. 05:42:29 Oh, but isn't that what CL packages are for? Separate environments? 05:42:34 No. 05:42:54 CL has the concept of environments, but they are not first-class in CL. 05:42:54 So you're talking about scope when you mean environment. 05:43:13 An environment is a mapping from names (that are symbols) to objects. 05:43:24 Whereas a package is a mapping from strings to symbols. 05:43:28 Oh, I see. 05:43:57 I believe picolisp has first class environments, but I'm not sure what one would use those for. 05:44:03 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:03 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:44:03 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:44:16 And that might be more idiomatic in that language because of dynamic-scoping by default. 05:44:50 Things are complicated because when people talk about first-class environments, they typically mean the dynamic runtime environment. 05:44:53 beach: So the analogous scenario for spawning a process in a SASOS would be to set up an environment and run some code in it? 05:45:12 kristof: Yes, or you could just run it in the same environment. 05:45:21 Just like threads in CL. 05:45:26 Ok, that makes sense. 05:46:17 For an OS you need separate GLOBAL environments to protect the system from users and users from each other. 05:46:48 Right 05:47:48 It is very interesting to me that the concept of a global environment is totally central in CL, yet, people don't seem to think about it that way, and the CLHS is often silent about it. 05:47:48 and permissions would be handled by CLOS, yeah? Each object would have an owner slot and there would be some multimethod dispatching associated with the owner of the object being modified and the owner of the code trying to do the modifying 05:48:13 Something like that, yes. 05:48:24 Do you know anything about OS technology? 05:48:32 There is a concept called a "capability" 05:48:34 Enough to follow whatever you might say next 05:48:48 Yes, I know about capabilities 05:49:05 You can think of a capability as a pointer with a few bits indicating access right. 05:49:36 But they manage to make it sound more complicated in the OS literature. 05:49:54 If it did not sound complicated, they might not get paid for what they write :) 05:50:35 There is that. 05:50:39 So would objects in the object store have slots for capabilities? 05:50:49 Er, no. 05:51:03 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:51:08 Since in CL every object *is* a pointer, then it suffices to add the access bits. 05:52:07 Then you would provide functions for testing the access bits so that access could be rejected by (say) a :before method. 05:52:27 Are functions objects? 05:52:30 Yes. 05:52:57 So everytime a function is defined, not only are you assinging it a pointer, but in your operating system, access bits would be added to that pointer as well. 05:53:02 They are not instances of STANDARD-OBJECT but they are objects. 05:53:31 Then everytime a function tried to modify an object, a :before method would compare the access bits on the function and its... arguments? 05:53:36 Some people advocate capabilities-only systems. I don't. 05:54:11 Yes, something like that. 05:54:30 Ok, I think I have a better picture, now. :) 05:54:59 What exactly would the benefits be of having an object store instead of a filesystem heirarchy? 05:55:11 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 05:55:19 Oh, I think one of your documents outlined the answer to that question. 05:55:26 Yes. 05:56:16 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.88.200] has joined #lisp 05:56:21 A file system is an object store that can only store byte vectors, and only in a tree. 05:56:45 it's pretty easy to imagine non-trees, at least. i suppose that want is what lead to symlinks 05:57:00 yes. 05:57:02 Well then the tree is an acyclic directed graph 05:57:04 ...or something. 05:57:28 Bike: Symlinks are required because they don't use GC. 05:57:50 heh, i can see that. 05:58:00 To make reference counting work, you must avoid cycles. 05:58:26 I don't know much about databases but I'd certainly like "SELECT FROM Papers BY KEYWORD Locust" or whatnot 05:58:40 Right. 05:59:08 My model is a tagged system like Gmail. 05:59:57 This is one of my favorite article against hierarchies: http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html 06:00:21 Oh, I love gmail's new tagging 06:01:13 I wonder if Shirky knows abut the dozen-odd periodic table designs... :) 06:01:34 Maybe not. 06:01:45 ... but that's not the central message there :) 06:01:48 'course. 06:02:00 Linus Pauling put the noble gases to the left of the hydrogenoids. 06:02:24 Yes, I have read about such variations. 06:02:39 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 06:03:04 And the Dewey Decimal System puts the entirety of computer science in a third level, something like Mathematics -> Machinery -> Computers. None of this is too relevant but it is amusing 06:04:26 Bike: I have a worse example. Once I went in to the largest bookstore in France (it is in Lille) and couldn't find any CS books on the science floor. I was told it is under "multimedia". I didn't think about it then, but I should have asked why books on biology are then not under "hunting and fishing". 06:04:44 :) 06:04:51 Would make for an amusing conversation 06:05:00 They wouldn't understand. 06:05:11 nice. 06:05:12 They might! I've found that people are very receptive to good ideas and interesting thoughts. 06:05:26 If they just leave the door to their mind only slightly ajar. 06:05:30 You can see silliness in the DDS on just about any floor of a good library. 06:05:53 Yeah. 06:06:00 There'll be ten shelves on QP1.0 to QP1.Ü and then one shelf for QP2-QP-488. 06:06:12 And nowadays, such a system probably would not be required. 06:06:29 Just give each book a unique identifier. 06:06:41 (a pointer if you like) 06:06:41 oh, i ws thinking of library of congress, not dewey decimal. well, same problems. 06:06:51 This has been a pleasant conversation, but I'm off. Have a good day, all :) 06:07:02 Then use computers to search for keywords, authors, contents, whatever. 06:07:10 kristof: Take care. 06:07:24 Yeah, nowadays it seems like I could just search a book and then get told "it's on the fourth floor next to the water fountain" rather than "RS81.91" 06:07:44 Bike: That would be one kind of unique identifier, yes. 06:08:17 Bike: I was thinking of having some automatic device pick it up. 06:09:01 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:03 Then, we would need to create synthesized shelves for browsing. 06:09:55 ... which is exactly what I advocate for LispOS: create directories on the fly, containing all objects corresponding to some keyword query. 06:10:16 beach: LispOS? 06:10:18 Good segue. Have you seen Haiku OS's filesystem? I think they do a lot more keyword/search stuff than the Linux world. 06:10:44 Bike: I might not have looked into it. 06:10:48 Thanks for the tip. 06:10:55 Guthur: Yes, a permanent topic here. 06:11:02 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:11:25 beach: but no actual work on such a thing, right? 06:11:40 Guthur: There is design work. 06:11:57 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:12:34 Guthur: https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS 06:12:51 alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-136.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:59 ah, cheers 06:13:15 i do remember reading someones musing about a CL OS that made heavy using of CLOS 06:13:19 trying to find it now 06:13:41 Guthur: Are you thinking of Genera? 06:14:20 I don't think so, but maybe... 06:17:47 phooey, can't find it now 06:17:47 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:59 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:18:06 alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:18:08 it was along time ago, and i think it was only a blog 06:18:20 I see. 06:25:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:30:33 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-57-66.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:37:02 -!- lllshamanlll [~lllshaman@146.66.163.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:37:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 06:37:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:45:48 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:56:31 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 07:06:06 Hi all. I want to initialize my array with (loop for x across arr do (setf x 2)) but this does not work. What will be the working version of this? 07:07:15 what about the :INITIAL-CONTENTS keyword argument for MAKE-ARRAY? 07:07:19 i usually use map-into 07:08:21 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.88.200] has left #lisp 07:09:33 sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 07:10:09 well, I have different context. I have an array in which some positions are values and some are closures that when executed return values. And I want a loop to execute them and replace closures by returned values. 07:10:51 (map-into array (lambda (x) (if (functionp x) (funcall x) x)) array) 07:12:43 Bike: yes, but seems that in this context "loop acroos when" combination looks nicer. Of course if there is a way to make it work. This additional lambda approach does not look composable. 07:18:05 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:11 (loop for i below (length vector) when (functionp (aref vector i)) do (setf (aref vector i) (funcall (aref vector i)))) 07:19:43 (defun extract-value (thing) (if (functionp thing) (funcall thing) thing)) (map-into array #'extract-value array) composed? 07:20:24 map-into cannot map into arrays, only into sequences, of which only vectors are arrays. 07:20:30 i didn't really understand the lack of composability statement in regard to map-into 07:20:43 To map into an array, you would have to make a vector displaced to this array. 07:21:07 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:40 (let ((vector (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:displaced-vector array))) (map-into vector #'extract-value vector)) 07:22:43 Oops, this is not what displaced-vector does. 07:22:43 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B34B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:22:58 pjb: looks scary, seems the version proposed by Bike just works 07:23:40 you could also use extract-value with a pjbian loop, of course 07:23:46 if you want arrays 07:24:25 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:25:55 Guthur: by "not that composable" I meant that if I have predicate "functionp" and transformation function "funcall" I want just plug them into something that can loop through sequence and transform elements that setisfy predicate 07:26:33 (defun extractor (pred trans) (lambda (x) (if (funcall pred x) (funcall trans x) x)))) 07:26:36 functional programming! 07:27:47 -!- patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:50 Bike: ok, I have already tried this and it works for me, thank you. Will go with this solution for now. 07:28:23 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:03 Ok, now it does. 07:29:29 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:24 Bike: for me functional programming also means convenient ways to combine/chain functions calls, and creating a new function to combine two existent just does not make me happy. But thanks for hints of course. 07:33:04 Would some magic syntax to do it make you happy? 07:33:40 heddwch: Not yet. I've mailed the author, still hoping for a reply. 07:36:35 Zhivago: I think yes, several good macros maybe will work. Though I have no idea what they are. Will look into some existing iteration libraries first. 07:37:08 tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has joined #lisp 07:37:49 You could write one that would make you happy. 07:39:22 pjb: How do you deal with those long package names? Nicknames? :use? Package aliases? 07:40:18 :use of course. 07:40:34 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@91.231.81.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:40:43 I never use qualified symbols like that, they just come from APROPOS. 07:41:21 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 07:41:44 pjb: Not "of course", because it implies a commitment to importing additional symbols when new releases add some. 07:42:14 Well you could use :import-from then. 07:42:21 OK. 07:42:34 Just checking. 07:44:11 If additional symbols in new releases became a problem, I guess package versionning would be in order. 07:45:18 One thing is for sure: if there is evern a new CL standard, it won't modify the CL package, but provide a new package name, like COMMON-LISP-2030 CL2030 perhaps? 07:46:03 pjb: How would those versions work? I mean, how would client code select the version? 07:48:28 -!- alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-136.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:27 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:05:27 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:08:30 pjb: Yes, I do :use the CL package, trusting that it won't change. 08:10:28 pjb: However, :import-from is not a solution in my opinion, because if there is a clash between symbols, you either can't use that functionality, or you are forced to use the very long package prefix. 08:11:17 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:1002:1c74:ff75:47b2] has joined #lisp 08:12:04 -!- conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:16:15 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-38-26.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 08:24:54 protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 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11:55:25 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:57 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:13:09 vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:01 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 12:20:12 I tend to follow H4ns here and drastically limit :use, prefering nicknames and qualified symbols so that it's easier to read the code 12:21:05 it's a little distracting in my own code though, I tried the one-package-per-file for pgloader then had to split some packages into several files, but still it's a number of packages... 12:22:24 Hi again. Is there a nicer way to find index of minimal element of an array? http://paste.lisp.org/+30IQ 12:24:08 CADD_ [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 12:24:08 -!- CADD_ [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:50 STilda: you could use reduce, although it might not be much "nicer" 12:24:55 I guess something smart could be done with reduce 12:24:58 ahah. 12:25:19 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has left #lisp 12:26:01 maybe coding seqmin and seqmax with :test and :key support would do ti 12:28:47 H4ns: for reduce I need to produce a new list of pairs (cons value index) which I do not like. Is there standard reduce that walks through several sequences in parallel? 12:29:12 dim: there are such standard functions, right? 12:29:21 I don't see them if they exist 12:29:30 of 12:29:33 ok 12:29:52 You could use mapcar. 12:30:59 kikdl [~kidls@ip-95-220-6-237.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:31:08 STilda: you'd not have to keep all indices, just the one that you're interested in 12:31:09 (defun seqmin (sequence predicate &key key) "Returns the minimum element of SEQUENCE given a PREDICATE function where if the first argument is greater than or equeal to the second then the PREDICATE should return false." (reduce (lambda (a b) (if (funcall predicate a b) a b)) sequence :key key)) 12:31:13 seems that could do 12:31:23 -!- kikdl [~kidls@ip-95-220-6-237.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:25 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 12:31:47 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 well not directly what you want, still missing the "index of" bits 12:32:56 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:33:32 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:11 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 12:50:02 Shinmera [~linus@adsl-62-167-45-109.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:58:27 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:01 -!- Shinmera [~linus@adsl-62-167-45-109.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 13:03:45 Shinmera [~linus@adsl-62-167-45-109.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:03:46 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:50 Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:41 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:05:25 Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:41 Hello everyone. How can I install hunchentoot in quicklisp without ssl? 13:11:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:13:50 Lis, did you try? 13:14:13 try what? 13:14:43 to install without ssl 13:14:54 ...hunchentoot 13:14:57 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#install 13:15:21 there is some info regarding installation with out SSL support 13:15:23 i just did (ql:quickload "hunchentoot") but I am on a 64bit ccl etc. and I do not find libssl64.dll anywhere. And the installation breaks while loading libssl32.dll 13:15:42 yea, I could install it manually but people here recommended to use quicklisp 13:15:51 in short add :HUNCHENTOOT-NO-SSL to features 13:15:56 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 13:15:57 *features* 13:16:17 ah ok 13:16:29 i think if you add that before doing (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) it should work 13:16:40 i am new to lisp, so i do (push :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*) ? 13:17:34 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:43 but i don not think this will work, since quicklisp ignores the features flag 13:17:46 Lis: (pushnew :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*) 13:17:52 ah, umm 13:18:06 ...really 13:18:45 yea it doesn't work 13:20:42 Quicklisp does not ignore *features* 13:21:05 I've had success with :hunchentoot-no-ssl in the past, but I haven't tried in a long time. 13:22:46 ok, i think i know the issue 13:23:40 when you first tried to install without adding :hunchentoot-no-ssl it failed, and subsequent attempts will not work unless you remove do a complete recompile 13:23:51 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.172] has joined #lisp 13:23:58 just had the same issue 13:24:05 ok, and how do I make a complete recompile? 13:24:25 but when i removed hunchentoot and did ql:quickload again with the *feature* set it worked 13:24:41 Xach: can you force a complete clean recompile? 13:24:55 might be also be cause i restarted the CL image 13:25:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 13:27:55 I don't know how to do that on Windows. On Unix I delete the fasl cache. 13:28:01 (ql:uninstall "hunchentoot") (ql:quickload "hunchentoot") worked :D 13:28:49 besides here are the 64bit versions of the dlls http://slproweb.com/products/Win32OpenSSL.html but they are delivered with an installer 13:28:52 That doesn't make much sense to me. 13:29:41 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:15 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:23 But if it works, it works! Hooray! 13:32:05 Xach: would it work because the system realises the files have changed (been redownloaded) and so recompiles anyway. 13:32:49 That's possible 13:32:53 I'm assuming uninstall deleted the .lisp files and directory 13:33:01 Not in that complex a way, but the timestamps would be newer 13:35:05 well unless it stored the source in the fasl, there is no way to no for certain without compiling if the given forms are the same 13:35:14 no/know 13:35:25 Right 13:37:07 H4ns: dim: I end up with http://paste.lisp.org/display/140643. Any thoughts about it? 13:37:23 diadara [~diadara@117.206.58.162] has joined #lisp 13:42:33 STilda: when using conses as conses (not as lists), I find it easier to read when they are accessed with CAR and CDR instead of FIRST and REST. 13:42:52 And the logic is weirdified by a four-argument comparison function. Two is much more typical. 13:48:12 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:22 sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:10 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:27 sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:30 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:23 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:06 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:00:36 I have found that SBCL is 6 times faster thatn CLISP consing, but interestingly, CLISP is a little faster than CCL 14:01:40 I'm sure it depends on the task. 14:02:17 (loop for i to 30000000 collect (* i 2)) 14:04:15 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:04:30 And whether it's compiled or not, etc. 14:05:15 yeah,, I put a (compile 'fun) 14:06:15 -!- CrazyEddy [~revisitat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:30 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:07:37 lman: what's (integer-length most-positive-fixnum)? 14:08:23 CrazyEddy [~Klikitat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:08:23 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:08:57 -!- Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:09 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.206.58.162] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:09:27 anybody know of a lisp-bootstrap thing other than this one: https://github.com/html/weblocks-twitter-bootstrap-application 14:10:37 loke_erc [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:50a2:6ddc:1106:bc54] has joined #lisp 14:12:47 Xach: 62 in sbcl 14:13:15 -!- CrazyEddy [~Klikitat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:17 And ccl? 14:13:23 Hello 14:13:39 48 in clisp 14:13:55 CrazyEddy [~concreter@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 14:13:56 -!- CrazyEddy [~concreter@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:56 CrazyEddy [~concreter@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:14:08 60 in ccl64 14:14:30 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:29 STilda: I did prefer the loop spelling, by far 14:18:32 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:19:53 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:20:39 -!- CrazyEddy [~concreter@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:56 dim: ok, for that particular one case this will be overkilling, but in latest form it is becoming utility that simplifies all future loops of that kind. 14:21:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:22:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has joined #lisp 14:22:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has quit [Changing host] 14:22:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:23:26 CrazyEddy [~sanguivor@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:24:17 sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:25:07 harish [~harish@175.156.196.163] has joined #lisp 14:30:02 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:30:43 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:17 dcxi [~dcxi@18.Red-83-61-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:47 sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:43 mathrick [~mathrick@91.231.81.3] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 -!- pierpa [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:39:49 I still don't like the double-calling protocol you have here 14:40:00 nor the 4 args compare fun 14:40:05 but well, you can still use it ;-) 14:41:24 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:50 lman: here, clall -r '((lambda (thunk) (let ((start (get-universal-time))) (funcall thunk) (- (get-universal-time) start))) (compile nil (lambda () (loop for i to 30000000 collect (* i 2)))))' gives 14:42:08 Armed Bear Common Lisp --> 32 Clozure Common Lisp --> 7 CLISP --> 6 CMU Common Lisp --> 3 SBCL --> 2 14:42:28 so sbcl is only 3 times faster than clisp, and cmucl only 2 times faster. 14:43:00 pjb: I just use (time ...) 14:43:26 I could have used a more precise clock too, but I wanted short results with clall -r 14:44:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:44:46 woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has joined #lisp 14:45:19 still, clisp seems faster than ccl for consing 14:45:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-68-83-156-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:46:31 perhaps it's slower at multiplying? 14:48:04 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:56 wbooze [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-180-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 delete the multiplication and try for yourself 14:50:39 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-152-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:51:13 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 14:51:59 sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:187a:45bc:9664:c13b] has joined #lisp 14:52:03 -!- wbooze is now known as oleo 14:53:55 surprise: Armed Bear Common Lisp --> 19 Clozure Common Lisp --> 6 CLISP --> 4 CMU Common Lisp --> 2 SBCL --> 2 14:54:02 Hi guys... what's the best forum for asking questions about quicklisp installation problems, besides here? 14:54:08 #quicklisp 14:54:20 But really, anywhere where Xach is. 14:54:38 -!- wohonajax [~wohonajax@108-231-174-248.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:54 pjb: Oh, there's a quicklisp IRC channel? On this network? 14:55:02 yes 14:55:10 pbj: Great, thanks! 14:56:00 is anyone from AccelerationNet known from being on this channel sometimes? 14:56:08 I'd like to see something happen to https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/pull/12 14:56:21 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 14:57:23 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 15:02:17 -!- sellout- [~Adium@2601:b:8200:71:187a:45bc:9664:c13b] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:05 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@18.Red-83-61-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 15:04:32 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:34 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 15:10:04 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:10:17 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:10:37 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:39 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:11:47 dim: bobbysmith007 i think 15:14:02 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:03 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:17 -!- root_empire [~michael_l@222.90.48.117] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:16:57 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 15:23:16 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 15:24:17 loke_ [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:9d83:603b:3720:54d7] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-054.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:45 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:30:04 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] 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17:21:49 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:13 Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:18 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@85.64.17.152.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:35 francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:39d5:14be:4ea6:1fbf] has joined #lisp 17:28:20 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:30:26 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:31:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:32:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:33:09 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 17:37:27 Is there a CL library I can use to programmatically find functions? Specifically, I'd like to be able to query for functions in this fashion: `(dwim-find-function '("foo") 3) => length``, first argument being the list of inputs to the function, and the second argument being the output value. 17:40:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:41:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has quit [Changing host] 17:41:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 francis_wolke: no, there is not. Have fun writing it! 17:41:41 pjb: :) 17:42:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:57 It should not be too hard to do either: collect some symbolic examples for each function, and write a simple engine to scan thru those examples, matching the user arguments. 17:43:38 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.34] has joined #lisp 17:44:31 -!- scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:45:15 How do you do that first thing without running the functions? 17:45:27 manually. 17:45:38 You write a bunch of forms such as: (example (cl:length x) -> n / (and (sequencep x) (= n (cl:length x)))) 17:46:22 (example (cl:identity x) -> y / (eql x y)) 17:46:40 Quite a bunch of work... 17:46:47 woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has joined #lisp 17:47:00 (example (cl:car k) -> a / (or (and (null k) (null a)) (and (consp k) (eql (car k) a)))) 17:47:17 ggole: but quite finite, for the CL package. 17:47:46 Remember, there are less than 978 operators in CL, there are more than 360000 methods in Android. 17:48:23 :( 17:49:09 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 17:50:01 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 17:52:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:53:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has joined #lisp 17:53:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has quit [Changing host] 17:53:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:54:10 I mean, as a lisper, you read the whole hyperspec once a week anyways. So just take a little more time one week, taking those notes along ;-) 17:56:15 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:58 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:01:14 pjb: why would you even bother to do that? Isn't there some way of getting all functions for a package, then their argument lists - and then running the specified arguments on those that match? Do it in parallel. Return those that don't throw. 18:01:21 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 18:04:23 whiteline [~user@unaffiliated/whiteline] has joined #lisp 18:04:38 Because invoking random functions is insane. 18:05:30 -!- splittist_ [uid17737@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwwkaqmtdaazpmdw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:34 ggole: well - I see your point - but 18:05:50 splittist_ [uid17737@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uctjnqazkpwszpju] has joined #lisp 18:05:57 there must be some way to do it in another process or something so that I don't have to do this by hand 18:06:16 (defun format-hard-drive (&rest args) ...) would make for a bit of a stumbling block, no? 18:07:32 pjb's notion of annotations would be the safe way to do it. 18:07:53 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:11 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-68-33-51-108.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:33 keen_ [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:12:05 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 18:12:29 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:37 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 ... didn't pjb actually included such a snippet somewhere? I mean one that erases thata 18:15:23 *data 18:15:36 Yep. 18:21:05 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:08 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB2031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:26 -!- francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:39d5:14be:4ea6:1fbf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:44 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:57 Vivitron [~Vivitron@ip68-106-18-79.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 Xach: thanks 18:33:11 minion: memo for bobbysmith007: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/pull/12 18:33:12 Remembered. I'll tell bobbysmith007 when he/she/it next speaks. 18:35:02 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-144-158.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:38:43 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 18:39:04 -!- victor_lowther_ [sid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdrvvwgbaxiburpw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:40:38 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-235-206.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 18:40:48 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:41:20 vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:00 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxgelypeilkgqjhv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:19 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gfcgzmjdddrqsyrs] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 -!- d4gg4d__ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ycgkibzmftyoicbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:20 victor_lowther_ [sid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fcqqddkraddkxpyz] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 d4gg4d__ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dtbxfnzjbliunoog] has joined #lisp 18:44:46 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:45:29 here you go.. 5 min hack: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140647 18:48:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:07 hmm s/list/cons in format line :x 18:54:04 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [] 19:02:48 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:02:50 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-dxbergshaxsfmaak] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:05 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 19:03:14 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-dhbpwtcyerpdzyfh] has joined #lisp 19:03:28 smithzv [~user@c-50-165-5-61.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:51 -!- 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#lisp 19:55:06 victor_lowther_ [sid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ojzoqgpblbzwvtya] has joined #lisp 19:57:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:58:30 -!- hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:03 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:59:25 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 Any day I get to use SIGNUM is a good day. 20:06:41 Xach: Why's that? 20:07:33 -!- conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:12:51 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-ef9de155.42-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:13:09 Because the function signum makes me smile. 20:14:04 I had to make a function that returns -5 if its input is less than zero, 5 if its input is greater than zero, and 0 otherwise. Perfect for signum! 20:15:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:35 Oh :) 20:19:59 milosn [~milosn@85.64.17.152.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:03 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:24:33 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:29:50 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:50 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-fhdmhvjsxvkoqegw] has joined #lisp 20:36:51 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:12 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:41:28 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 20:41:51 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 20:42:08 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:20 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 20:42:55 -!- revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:42:59 Anyone familiar with Alan Kay's quote that Lisp is the Maxwell's equations of software? 20:44:23 revolve [~steve@199.19.119.133] has joined #lisp 20:44:41 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-dhbpwtcyerpdzyfh] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:44:54 theseb: of course 20:45:07 I vaguely remember watching something like that, involving a tshirt 20:45:35 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 20:46:10 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wdmfxvmknflhvyun] has joined #lisp 20:46:33 fe[nl]ix: can you please elaborate how lisp is the "foundation" of software? 20:46:56 fe[nl]ix: if i had to guess i would say it is because you can write an eval in lisp and hence implement all languages in lisp? 20:47:14 theseb: You can implement any language in any language 20:47:49 Although I will swear fealty to whoever develops a CL implementation in brainfuck 20:47:52 i think kay's quote was about seeing an eval-in-lisp implementation, though, yes. 20:47:53 He probably just meant that it's a small language 20:47:55 the evaluator in lisp 1.5 manual is said thing i think 20:51:45 heddwch: i'll tell you how to do that practically...1. Write a $FAVORITE_LANGUAGE -> Brainfuck compiler...2. Implement CL in $FAVORITE_LANGUAGE...3. compile and celebrate! :) 20:52:12 theseb: haha Fair enough =p 20:52:38 I want do something really weird. I want to serialize a thread, or approximate it as close as possible, send it over the wire and continue execution inside another CL environment. Am I on a fools errand? 20:52:39 alexherb1 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-57-146.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:53:03 drdo: ok...i can perhaps agree that Lisp is the most *elegant* of the models of computation...Turing Machines...lambda calculus, etc.....but really any of those could be Maxwell's Equations..just not so elegant 20:53:27 I don't see how you can argue that lisp is more elegant than the -calculus 20:53:29 i think you're overanalyzing what was basically a quick moment. 20:54:04 drdo: i knew that might be controversial.....my thought is that lambda calculus is too impractical....Lisp makes some vital concessions in the direction of practicality 20:54:12 OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:39 drdo: so unlike Turing Machines and Lambda Cal...people actually *use* Lisp for real work..that's not a small difference 20:55:04 I don't think you understand what elegance means :P 20:55:17 nobody does 20:55:48 elegance is in the eye of beholder :P 20:56:21 fortunately everyone's eyes are pretty much the same 20:56:24 drdo: G. Chaitin defines elegance as "shortest programs" 20:56:50 g chaitin also wrote a compiler from lisp-with-APL-characters to Diophantine polynomials. 20:57:14 theseb: What exactly does that mean? 20:57:15 drdo: if you were forced to come up with a quantitative measure of language elegance......measuring which languages wrote most compact programs is probably as good as any other def you can think of 20:57:43 Well if you take size of all programs, it's really the same for all languages for any reasonable definition of size 20:57:51 Also a large part of Kolmogorov complexity theory is that length is relative to the underlying machine (up to a constant, since you can write interreters) 20:58:49 Bike: wow...ok i'm impressed you made that distinction...ok let me improve... 20:59:13 my def of elegance allows you to measure elegance of different programs IN THE SAME LANGUAGE 20:59:37 Or just leave "elegance" as a subjective idea instead of making up a bunch of crap to justify your subjective impressions. 20:59:40 e.g. we could have a contest and now decide whose program was the most elegant in lisp 21:00:01 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:00:12 theseb: I thought the problem was deciding elegance of different languages 21:00:22 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 21:01:40 Bike: but there is a history of successfully defining subjective ideas......computation itself was a subjective idea that was formalized in 1930s...not sure it is that bad of an idea to try 21:02:10 theseb: So what's your proposal? 21:02:12 drdo: yes it was 21:02:14 _malicious [~void@pool-71-99-49-179.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:08 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:09 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB2031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:18 drdo: reading back...you aren't saying smallest program that solves X is the same size in all languages right? 21:03:34 i'm not 21:03:48 drdo: as a 1st attempt....what is wrong with defining the most elegant language as the one that allows the smallest solutions for various programming problems 21:03:55 drdo: i'll define size now... 21:03:59 No 21:04:01 size is easy 21:04:03 drdo: smallest number of bytes in program source 21:04:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-53-73.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:04:09 number of syntactic elements 21:04:17 ok...that's probably better 21:04:19 Now choose the "various programming problems" 21:04:51 drdo: i see the problem.....if we choose database problems then SQL comes out looking like the winner :) 21:05:10 drdo: if we choose register twittling then C comes out looking like the winner 21:05:55 drdo: if we choose writing Turing complete functions then Lisp comes out looking like the winner 21:06:28 sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:08:07 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:09:10 ? 21:09:16 What the hell are turing complete functions? 21:11:09 drdo: correction...i mean.....functions that can simulate all other functions of the language 21:11:31 drdo: Turing complete is a term that refers to languages 21:12:10 What exactly does it mean for a function to "simulate" a function? 21:12:35 Assembly tends to be smaller for register twiddling, just not for the setup to get to the register twiddling ;) 21:12:40 Corvidium [~cosman246@74.194.37.145] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 drdo: means it can accept an encoding that allows it to find the answer to any other function in the language....think lisp's eval 21:13:39 man the IQ level of the convos in here is like 20 points higher than in other language channels 21:13:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for the IQ level of the convos in here is like 20 points higher than in other language channels. 21:13:57 rofl 21:14:16 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:14:17 man specbot is stupid 21:14:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for specbot is stupid. 21:14:28 vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 man theseb's manners 21:14:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for theseb's manners. 21:14:57 rudybot: Sorry, I couldn't find anything for the IQ level of the convos in here is like 20 points than in other language channels. 21:15:10 Oh, no rudybot 21:15:23 Wrong channel, I'm an idiot 21:15:29 Sorry about that 21:17:30 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:17:38 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-035-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:18:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-27.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:19:01 theseb: where are you going with this? Clearly the most elegant language then is a language with just one construct that can simulate itself 21:19:19 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e260:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:37 drdo: it must also be able to simulate any function on integers that can be defined by some turing machine 21:20:38 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:e1e6:1038:4263:4381] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:21:00 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:7c19:c895:75fc:b1c3] has joined #lisp 21:21:07 drdo: i.e. all the computable functions 21:21:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:21:40 sure, same argument 21:22:06 rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has joined #lisp 21:22:08 drdo: you can't make a language with one "construct" that can do that and also simulate itself 21:22:32 drdo: unless that "construct" is so unwieldy and complicated that it basically is like many "constructs" 21:22:40 Sure i can, i just define it like that 21:24:28 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 21:24:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 21:24:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:27:57 drdo: ok...this thread has taught me that Alan Kay's statement may not have been the most brilliant far ranging comment on which to base all of comp sci theory like i was hoping it was :) 21:28:19 drdo: maybe it wasn't the most profound thing in the universe...oh well..... 21:28:34 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:28:49 -!- OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:29:08 hi, how can I loop over cdrs pls? I want my iteration variable to be (1 2 3 4) then (2 3 4) then (3 4) etc. 21:29:30 puchacz: maplist 21:29:35 thx 21:33:20 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:50 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:36:12 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB2031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:25 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 21:39:47 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:40:08 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-38-26.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:45:29 haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:44 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:57 probably a long shot, but has anyone in here ever toyed with krivine machines and/or binary lambda calculus? 21:46:53 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.235.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:38 -!- woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:47:50 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ewegdvivnocykumh] has quit [Changing host] 21:47:50 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 21:47:50 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Changing host] 21:47:50 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ewegdvivnocykumh] has joined #lisp 21:49:33 n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:51:51 i was surprised to discover that hunchentoot creates a new thread for every incoming request 21:52:01 pierpa [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:32 puchacz: loop on works too. 21:54:08 macdice: it creates a thread for each incoming connection, not for each request. 21:54:21 pjb: thx, no worries, I am happy with maplist 21:57:22 ah, i see, slightly better (perhaps my feeling that creating new threads all the time is expensive is out of date anyway) 21:58:01 macdice: it is out of date. 21:58:19 macdice: there was a time when webservers created a process for each request. that was expensive. 21:58:34 depends on system... 21:58:40 On linux creating threads is not much cheaper than creating processes. 21:58:52 On the other hand, on linux creating processes is cheap, so. 21:58:56 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:59:00 macdice: of course, the one-thread-per-connection strategy does not scale well, and not creating a thread for each connection is better when there are many connections. 21:59:08 And if you're not on linux, then switch to linux. 21:59:38 *yawn* 22:01:18 Totally not web-scale, I concur. 22:01:26 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:01:27 -!- Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01:55 the manual suggests that a new 'taskmaster' subclass could perhaps be written to use a thread pool 22:02:10 macdice: that's why he is a consultant. 22:02:30 macdice: yes. it has been tried, and those who tried found it not to be worth the effort. 22:02:32 -!- haxx [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:49 macdice: https://github.com/billstclair/limited-thread-taskmaster/ 22:02:50 jdoles: who is "he" in that context? 22:03:11 macdice: step 1: create broken software. Step 2: get clueless users. Step 3: offer a potential solution. Step 4: cash in indefinitely on said users making them believe you actually solved new problems. 22:03:13 H4ns: we tried it and found it useful 22:03:20 fe[nl]ix: interesting. 22:03:31 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 22:03:42 jdoles: are you suggesting that "not web scale" equals "broken"? 22:03:51 jdoles: or are you just trying to make friends? 22:04:05 H4ns: yes, if something is not optimal, it's broken. 22:04:18 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:32 seems like this belongs in hunchentoot, this is surely what anyone would want 22:04:35 It's software, not something like a car which requires expensive components. 22:04:41 jdoles: what are you doing in #lisp if you're just interested in "optimal"? 22:04:58 Petit_Dejeuner [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:02 H4ns: I am in lots of channels for various reasons. 22:05:22 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 22:05:46 macdice: well, i did not know about that patch and if it really is what "anyone" wants, i don't see why it could not be included in hunchentoot. 22:05:47 H4ns: why do you appear to be attacking my presence here? 22:06:32 I really don't see the point of creating an environment which is not better than the state of the art which is already available with the same license. 22:07:01 Just because something is new, doesn't mean it is better; a lesson not that many people seem to have learned. 22:07:24 M-x Fix word order 22:08:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:25 jdoles: perhaps you have a warped understanding of the concept of "better" 22:09:02 adeht: perhaps. What is your understanding of the concept "better"? 22:09:45 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:12:58 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:13:49 jdoles: my understanding is that "better" is a subjective (or under-specified) notion, and that there are other subjects besides myself who have different views about what is "better" when it comes to a general assessment of a system 22:14:13 adeht: ah, but then you are wrong. 22:14:36 "better" derives from economics. 22:15:26 Sometimes there is a Pareto optimum. 22:15:38 But I already defined that plane. 22:16:24 H4ns: well, i know nothing, but it definitely seems like a reasonable option for anyone planning to service a lot of clients. (which doesn't include me yet for now anyway! starting small) 22:17:19 macdice: it may be a reasonable option, sure. i've used hunchentoot in a few projects that had to deal with substantial (if not huge) load and found the lack of a thread pool not to be the limit 22:17:35 macdice: i did not use threading at all, though. 22:17:56 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:24 ok, so you processed all requests sequentially with a single cpu core? 22:18:44 macdice: yes. that worked for the scale that i had to apply, and i had lots of headroom. 22:19:01 macdice: not implying that it'd be the best strategy in every case. 22:19:56 jdoles: here, I can also emit a bunch of seemingly related issues: the problem of locality wrt search.. Arrow's theorem.. the subjective theory of value... but really, I don't think it's worth discussing them with you 22:20:55 jdoles: what is the start of the art in this case? 22:21:25 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:21:57 state* 22:22:04 macdice: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ 22:22:30 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:23:18 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 22:24:15 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:31 it is so funny. suddenly, everyone is talking about being "reactive" and not using threads and yada yada, as if that was like a novel idea. i mean, anyone heard about ace at all? or vms asynchronous i/o? it was unix which spoiled the idea of advanced i/o for many years. we've been doing it right ages ago. 22:24:33 annoying. 22:24:55 Nothing new is under the sun. 22:25:08 That was either Shakespeare, or the holy bible, that had that line. 22:25:22 lllshamanlll [~lllshaman@146.66.163.140] has joined #lisp 22:26:18 right. however, in it in particular, each fashion wave creates a large bunch of young folks who run around and tell everyone how software is ought to be done "right", ignoring all the generations before them that did the same thing, and being equally wrong. 22:26:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:14 Ecclesiastes 1:9, apparently, in Vulgate translation "Nihil Novi sub sole" 22:27:42 oh, and how could I forget, satisfice vs. maximize 22:27:44 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:17 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 22:30:24 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:30:27 -!- lllshamanlll [~lllshaman@146.66.163.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:30:52 so, hunchentoot isn't in the shoot-out data (where would it fall? my guess: somewhere near java stuff, way above python/ruby, below C/Go/...). but i don't see how that renders its existence pointless 22:31:33 macdice: it would not be nowhere near Java. 22:32:23 macdice: it would be nowhere near Java.* 22:32:39 i mean, i have a bunch of stuff that i have done in lisp because i wanted to, for various reasons, and now i need to stick an HTTP interface on it 22:33:09 sure, if i were tryign to make a JSON ping-pong server with no other requirements than speed, yeah, i wouldn't start from here 22:33:13 macdice: if you're not planning to serve more than a few dozen users at a time, you'll be fine with hunchentoot in the bare default configuration. 22:34:15 macdice: if you have needs beyond that, make sure that you understand what hunchentoot's limitations are. 22:36:44 Oh, so that's what this conversation is about. 22:36:54 With stuff like clack, you're not tied to any particular server anymore, anyway. 22:37:49 Speaking of webservers, if hunchentoot really does have limitations, what web server would one use for really large scale services? tpd2? 22:38:37 kristof: hunchentoot can be fine if you don't rely on it for scheduling your backend i/o 22:38:51 kristof: it is rather well tested and relatively robust. 22:39:42 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:39:54 H4ns: Is it bad (or at least subpar) at IO scheduling because of a lack of engineering? What should one do if lots of reads and writes to a database file need to happen all the time? 22:40:21 ...Actually, you should just write to RAM in that case and only write to disk occasionally, huh? 22:40:39 Sort of like what datomic does 22:40:40 kristof: you schedule your work in your process appropriately. hunchentoot does not try to be good at that. 22:41:20 kristof: right. there are several options that one can consider. it is a fallacy to believe that scaling, in particular to web scale, is something that you get automatically by choosing the right web server. 22:41:33 Of course 22:41:34 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:15 I don't know much about web-servers. I do know that stuff like Mighty scales to 100k requests per second and beyond, but as far as I/O, I'm not sure 22:42:29 kristof: clack looks interesting, thanks for the pointer. so far i like the middleware concept (of eg tying request/response to database transactions etc), which reminds me of django 22:42:45 macdice: clack is more like sinatra than it is like django 22:42:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:43:41 kristof: hunchentoot is not particularly fast at serving http either, but that has not much to do with whether it is ready for "web scale" 22:46:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:32 i'm not meaning to say that hunchentoot is a great piece of software, mind you. i have just found it sufficient in several process and easier to work with than allegroserve or cl-http. 22:47:47 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:55 -!- rk[xxx] is now known as ryankarson 22:47:59 -!- ryankarson is now known as ryankarason 22:48:25 i currently use wookie with a port open for each core on the machine, fronted with a local nginx to balance between them on port 80, works great. 22:49:01 Question 22:49:17 I think such conversation is useless; just add an entry to that benchmark if you have anything to claim. 22:49:41 Where do shared, compiled libraries for sbcl go? 22:49:56 kristof: probably depends on how SBCL was compiled. 22:50:08 kristof: which is probably exported in some lisp extension symbol. 22:50:15 kristof: or compiled into some manpage. 22:50:25 kristof: or... you can read it in the manual. 22:50:31 right right 22:50:32 Failing that, read the source code. 22:50:48 If they don't have it available as some symbol, then it sucks. 22:51:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:53:01 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 22:56:31 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:58:41 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 22:59:00 -!- smithzv [~user@c-50-165-5-61.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:20 deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:39 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 23:03:59 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:07:08 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e260:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 23:07:28 -!- pierpa [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:07:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:13:29 -!- _malicious [~void@pool-71-99-49-179.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:13:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:06 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B34B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:30 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:23:33 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 23:23:54 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 23:24:23 When asdf tries to load for a system, does it only look in *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*, or does it also look in the current working directory? 23:26:38 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:42 kristof: cl has no "current working directory" 23:27:56 kristof: so no, asdf does not look there :) 23:29:42 kristof: it looks in potentially many places, depending on the environment, config files, and several special variables 23:29:51 H4ns: I believe (load #P"file") will look for the file in the current directory 23:30:04 If you start a common lisp repl in some directory, I mean 23:30:04 kristof: it will merge with *default-pathname-defaults* 23:30:49 kristof: asdf does not by default look for systems in *default-pathname-defaults*. you can make it do that by pushing the symbol *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* to the central registry. 23:31:11 I used to do that, but now I use the local-projects mechanism in quicklisp, mostly. 23:31:19 Xach: And how would I make ASDF remember that permanently? *CENTRAL-REGISTRY* appears volatile. 23:31:32 kristof: You could put it in your init file. 23:32:10 Xach: (push *default-pathname-defaults* *CENTRAL-REGISTRY*) in my init file, got it 23:32:18 resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 That will have a different effect from what I described. 23:32:29 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:32:53 Xach: Then (push *default-pathname-defaults ASDF:*central-registry*) 23:33:09 That will use the value of *default-pathname-defaults*. Using the symbol *default-pathname-defaults* (by e.g. quoting it) will make it evaluated during each central registry lookup. 23:33:12 ...with a second asterick in the second element. 23:33:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:33:56 If you use the symbol, changing the value of *default-pathname-defaults* will update where ASDF looks. 23:34:13 Xach: That makes sense. Thank you! 23:41:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:14 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZZ] 23:42:20 -!- ryankarason [~rak@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:43:21 -!- rockymadden [~rockymadd@unaffiliated/rockymadden] has quit [] 23:43:35 ryankarason [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 23:44:55 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:45:21 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 23:49:25 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.92.112] has joined #lisp 23:50:33 -!- lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:45 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 23:51:25 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 23:52:05 rk[imposter] [~rkimposte@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 23:52:05 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:14 nialo- [~yaaic@24.187.177.36] has joined #lisp 23:52:28 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 23:54:54 Axioplase [~pied@216-13-250-250.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:02 Hi 23:55:37 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:56:59 I'm trying to remember what the CL reader macro is that allows to ignore the next sexp... 23:57:04 (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "[a-zA-Z]{3,}" "this is") -> ("this") 23:57:08 What on earth is going on? 23:57:45 kristof: that looks correct. Retrun all the sequences of three or more alphabetic words 23:57:56 Axioplase: Oh, that's what the {3,} is for 23:58:04 yes 23:58:11 Axioplase: I thought it was matching "this" with "is". 23:58:27 ...I should learn some perl, eventually. 23:59:17 no. {d} is "of length "d", {d1,d2} is of d1<=length<=d2, and if you omit d1 or d2, is of length above or up-to