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[~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 02:42:29 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:59 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has joined #lisp 02:49:44 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:55 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f69a69.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:53:07 -!- sz0 [~user@208.72.139.54] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:53:31 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f651bf.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:56:57 oxum [~oxum@122.164.231.58] has joined #lisp 02:57:08 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 02:58:06 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:42 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 03:11:26 michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.50.27] has joined #lisp 03:12:00 hi. I'm new to lisp and trying to get my head round macros. I'd really appreciate any help with this problem as I've spent a good few hours confused. I have a macro that substitutes text to generate skeleton code and works fine when I pass atoms into it e.g., "tv" "samsung", but if I try to extract atoms from an assoc list using accessors e.g., (caar inventory) it doesn't pass in the corresponding item. Why is that? 03:12:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140591 03:12:38 macros don't substitute text, they modify lisp data structures 03:13:25 macros will make more sense when you start thinking of the lisp language in terms of conses of atoms and strings and such, instead of text in a source file 03:13:33 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.49.219] has joined #lisp 03:14:42 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 03:15:20 I see. Perhaps I am using the wrong tool for the job then, but it still puzzles me why in the example I pasted my first test data works, but using accessors do not. I would appreciate an explanation. 03:15:34 *does 03:17:32 anybody know why cl-json::map-slots isn't exported? 03:19:31 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:21:40 and oops I pasted the wrong output for my first test. Correction: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140592 03:23:56 Adlai: because it's a general purpose utility function used internally by cl-json? 03:27:14 oh my bad. I thought it was mapping bound slots in parsed JSON objects... I guess I'll have to write that one myself :) 03:27:34 although I think it'd work for that too 03:46:47 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:47 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:46:47 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:48:11 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 03:59:58 -!- duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:08 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:05:25 -!- refried_ [~refried_@lawn-143-215-121-121.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:07:58 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:12:15 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:35 qw3rtman 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timeout: 256 seconds] 06:13:25 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:14:45 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 06:17:03 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:37 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 06:19:25 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:19:47 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:19:48 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:24:41 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:26:23 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26:37 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:28:51 oxum [~oxum@122.164.95.207] has joined #lisp 06:29:58 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 06:31:04 rodyaj: macro arguments are not evaluated by default 06:32:58 rodyaj: so (vandalize (car foo) (cdr foo)) will end up as (intern (concat "cycle-" '(car foo) ... 06:33:31 the problem in the second one is extra quoting, i think 06:34:59 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 06:36:39 H4ns: how can I evaluate them by default? I thought the comma could be used to flip in and out of compile and run time, but it would seem that I cannot nest the commas without error messages about backquote-unquote. 06:37:12 comma is just part of backquote. `(foo ,bar baz) is roughly the same as (list 'foo bar 'baz), that's all. 06:37:16 rodyaj: you cannot evaluate by default. 06:38:36 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:40:58 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:42:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:42:52 I see. So there is no way for me to pass in items from a list to the macro? I wanted to use a mapcar to automate passing arguments in to the macro. 06:43:20 Loymoev [~loymoev@host-99-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 06:43:52 rodyaj: i see what you want to do and i find it surprisingly hard to come up with a good answer. maybe it is because it is too early :) 06:44:34 rodyaj: i'd just invoke the macro multiple times rather than put the definitions into a data structure. 06:45:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:45:39 rodyaj: you need to consider when your code is evaluated. if you put code into a macro, it will be evaluated at macroexpansion time. if you put it at the top level, it will be evaluated at load time (which is afterwards) 06:45:59 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has joined #lisp 06:47:07 rodyaj: so, if you're defining a variable with your definitions, they will be available too late. 06:48:02 rodyaj: there are ways to work around that, but none of them will be pretty or idiomatic. the easy path is to design your macro so that it accepts multiple definitions as arguments. or invoke the macro multiple times. 06:48:24 H4ns: thanks. that is what I'm doing for now (calling the macro multiple times). It will do for now. 06:49:52 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-229-230-151.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:56:35 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-11-35.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:58:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 07:01:10 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:01 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:02:07 harish [~harish@180.255.248.10] has joined #lisp 07:09:10 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:23 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 07:14:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 07:17:50 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-229-230-151.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:16 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-229-230-151.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:19:47 -!- harish [~harish@180.255.248.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:19:49 -!- 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out] 09:23:14 ggole [~ggole@106-68-208-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:23:22 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 m( 09:26:06 alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:26:43 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:27:36 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27:56 (m) 09:28:04 ) 09:28:11 Gotta match 'em up. 09:28:32 We should only use japanese smileys here. (^.^) 09:29:15 -!- lupine [~lupine@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30:01 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 09:32:54 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:51 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:45:30 I'm for no smilies at all. 09:47:43 eval in macros, however, that's innovative! 09:48:58 That's foolish. 09:49:14 It's very hard to find a case where it would do the right thing. 09:49:36 we've been trolled 09:49:41 lupine [~lupine@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has joined #lisp 09:51:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:38 Shinmera:  09:53:03 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:10  09:54:20 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 09:55:37 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:59:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:00:16 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[~Neptu@252.67.24.31.static.mrfriday.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:06 turbopape [~turbopape@41.225.71.203] has joined #lisp 11:05:37 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0059.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 11:08:26 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:11:38 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 11:12:11 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-249-166.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:13:20 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 11:14:01 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:14:22 hi, how can I check if I have 64 or 32 bit sbcl pls? 11:18:33 #+x86 vs. ${ 11:18:35 oops 11:18:42 #+x86 vs. #+x86-64 11:19:00 although that'd break on *chuckle* non-x86 architectures 11:22:22 (< most-positive-fixnum #.(expt 2 32)) 11:22:51 puchacz: why do you want to know? 11:23:19 thx, H4ns 11:23:24 and ogomita 11:23:34 because I don't know what was installed using apt-get 11:23:38 there are a lot of constants that you can use to check what you really must check. 11:23:47 puchacz: then use file(1)! 11:24:04 what do you mean? 11:24:04 file $(which sbcl) 11:24:27 ok, 64 bit 11:24:29 thx 11:26:15 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28:11 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 11:28:33 hiroakip [~hiroaki@bi1.roaming.dfn.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:35 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32:36 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:33:13 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 11:40:55 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:41:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-21.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:43:29 ejbs [~user@h82-117-106-112.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:18 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:47:27 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:42 eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 11:49:44 -!- eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 11:49:44 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 11:55:10 -!- milosn [~milosn@82-68-174-118.in-addr.centralnic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:57:57 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 12:00:31 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:02:52 is cliki down? 12:02:53 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:08 czesc puchacz ^_^ 12:03:24 cze. priv? 12:04:57 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:06:09 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC7F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:47 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-13-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:11:48 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.225.71.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:57 for future reference it's online via 8080 port 12:12:12 turbopape [~turbopape@41.225.71.203] has joined #lisp 12:15:23 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.49.162] has joined #lisp 12:18:36 milosn [~milosn@82-68-174-118.in-addr.centralnic.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:03 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:38 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@84.93.81.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:21:15 maybe that should be added to the channel topic 12:23:54 -!- milosn [~milosn@82-68-174-118.in-addr.centralnic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:24:04 milosn [~milosn@82-68-174-118.in-addr.centralnic.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:58 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:28:18 yacks 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12:57:27 -!- knob [~knob@173.243.89.170] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:57:34 Is there some established method for testing a `define-setf-expander` definition? I've tried a few ad-hoc side-effecting expressions in interesting places, and all seems well, but I suspect this is something that is easy to get subtly wrong. 12:57:53 knob [~knob@173.243.89.170] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 13:02:09 (macroexpand-1 '(setf (foo bar) baz)) 13:02:40 Also, if you want to catch it live, *macroexpand-hook* 13:03:23 And of course, you can call and debug the macro function directly: (funcall '(setf foo) baz bar) 13:03:58 The question isn't so much whether a particular macroexpansion is ok as whether all of them are 13:04:11 but define-setf-expander doesn't necessarily define a setf function. 13:04:47 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 13:05:21 Let me put that another way: is there is a setf form (or smallish set of forms) that will exercise my definition such that if I got it wrong, the macro expansion will look wrong? 13:05:21 Well, you just need to test them all, then. 13:05:46 Probably what you want is some statistical likelihood of correctness. 13:06:05 The facts of life. 13:06:55 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:05 "Almost certainly fine" is good enough 13:07:35 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 13:07:53 I'm just a bit worried that I screwed up and nested setf forms with side effects will break, or happen in the wrong order, or some silly junk like that. 13:10:05 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.225.71.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:50 turbopape [~turbopape@41.225.71.203] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 put (aref v (incf i)) everywhere in your test cases, and soon you should see if there's an unwanted side effect. 13:11:45 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:12:58 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:1002:1c74:ff75:47b2] has joined #lisp 13:13:58 That's more or less what I've done (actually, (aref a (progn (format t "bang~%") i)), but whatever). 13:15:55 -!- Shinmera 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has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:28:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:52 harish [~harish@124.197.117.68] has joined #lisp 14:37:30 hi, is there a function (sb-whatever:wait-indefinitely) or I would have to write it myself? 14:38:22 keen__ [~blackened@pdf879961.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p3b920bd5.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:40:53 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41:31 approximation would be (sleep (* 24 3600 365 100)) to sleep for 100 years 14:41:53 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0FB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:42:16 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 or how about (sb-thread:wait-on-semaphore (sb-thread:make-semaphore)) ? 14:48:29 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 chenjf [~chenjf@58.254.168.78] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:25 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:06:51 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:09:23 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937317.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:09:34 (loop while t do (sleep (* 24 60 60))) 15:13:05 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:16:06 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-52-152.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-52-152.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:16:06 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:16:39 (loop (sleep (* 24 60 60))) 15:19:50 puchacz: why do you want such a thing? 15:21:12 -!- astalla [~astalla@93.62.202.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:36 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@wlan244074.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:27 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 15:26:30 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 15:26:30 dlowe: requirement for Xach's buildapp http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ 15:26:39 function that does not quit 15:26:44 actually, it is sbcl's requirement I think 15:26:55 when exporting image 15:27:05 so... you're calling a function to start your app, right? 15:27:10 yes 15:27:14 also, understandably, I have a problem with database connection 15:27:38 I think it dumped a socket designator that is no longer valid after reviving the image 15:28:03 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Quit: WeeChat, The Better IRC Client: http://weechat.org/] 15:28:05 and this function that you're calling starts a thread and returns? 15:28:47 yes, it starts hunchentoot and all that 15:28:58 database problem logs this to console: 15:29:01 Database error: Couldn't write to #: Bad file descriptor 15:29:45 you should be able to use sb-thread:join-thread to just wait until your main thread terminates 15:30:22 it is ok to wait indefinitely, I don't expect the app to respond to signals like RESTART or STOP 15:30:24 killing it is fine 15:30:25 yes, everything should be in its initial state when you save an image 15:30:45 I use postmodern that has some default connections afaik 15:31:02 yes, and if your main thread never terminates, then joining it won't either 15:31:13 I settled for semaphore 15:31:20 if it does terminate, isn't it better for the process to die rather than just hang? 15:31:55 so what would you put there? in (defun main() ...) ? 15:33:12 (sb-thread:join-thread (function-that-returns-thread)) 15:33:22 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@188.58.7.79] has joined #lisp 15:33:31 ok 15:33:54 thx. what about the database connection with postmodern? I am googling but nothing specific came up so far 15:34:59 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 15:37:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:25 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 15:37:55 presumably, you're opening a db connection before saving your image 15:38:25 I am trying to ensure all connections are closed before starting hunchentoot in my (main) now 15:39:03 are you creating the connection in a defparameter or defvar form maybe? 15:39:26 I hope not :) though it would explain it. I certainly create semaphores there but they should survive 15:41:11 minion: tell Fare: https://github.com/qitab/qmynd/pull/3 15:41:11 httpsgithub.comqitabqmyndpull3: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 15:41:17 oh. 15:42:10 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:43:29 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43:40 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 15:49:24 -!- abbe_ is now known as abbe 15:51:01 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@188.58.7.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:29 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:52:34 -!- pootler [~merv.hamm@84.203.201.73] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:55:11 in my use case (incf *batch-size* (reduce #'+ row :key #'length)) looks like prohibitely expensive... ideas? 15:55:39 maybe not *that* expensive after all 15:55:44 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC7F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:57:07 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-249-166.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 15:58:22 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 16:00:49 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:01:41 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:02:37 My question would be -- why are you not computing that as a running statistic? 16:04:58 I need to cut batches early when it's getting too high 16:05:22 a batch is currently 25000 rows (arbitrary value), but sometimes each row is so big that 25000 of them won't fit in memory 16:05:46 I didn't find a way to know about that before it's too late other than manually counting bytes (well chars here unfortunately) 16:05:47 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 test case: [size:1188445 rows:5] 16:07:52 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gkcrwehmtgbaubdt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:31 nice Heap exhausted, game over. even with size precautions 16:09:32 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 16:16:36 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:12 even when forcing gc in between loops 16:17:27 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:21 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:38 even when (setf *batch* nil) is done before calling into the GC, to make sure it's able to do anything about the situation... 16:30:25 -!- easye [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:36 easye` [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has joined #lisp 16:31:34 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-lyxjrhxsxarocdsd] has joined #lisp 16:33:28 is push consing? 16:33:44 seems it is. 16:36:22 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 16:39:32 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:45 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:39:45 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:40:05 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:15 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:24 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:14 How could push possibly not cons? 16:43:29 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:43:31 That's a bit like asking if cons conses. 16:44:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:44:49 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 push is sugar for (setf place (cons thing place)) 16:45:40 ggole: yeah, sometimes I'm that stupid 16:45:55 I'm just realising how bad this implementation I have really is 16:46:06 it's from a long time ago, let's say, in my CL learning scale 16:46:19 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 16:46:35 using push rather than (setf (aref ... )) when size is bounded etc 16:46:40 joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:55 Uh, push will not do what you want on an array 16:47:13 I think he means replacing lists of predictable dimension with an array 16:47:16 oh, right. 16:47:19 (Which may indeed cut down on consing.) 16:47:22 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:47:26 I've gotten in the habit of using adjustable arrays anyway 16:47:39 I wish the array manipulation functions were a bit more concise 16:47:41 yeah exactly 16:47:51 Should add some to snarc 16:48:10 Yep, I always define some wrappers around make-array 16:48:55 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:56:43 -!- easye` [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- benny [~benny@shell.spamt.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- cenhyperion [~cenhyperi@192.241.224.166] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:44 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:45 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:45 -!- Vutral 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Munksgaard [munksgaard@hub.pronoia.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:49 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:49 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:49 -!- nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-ijxkqlnmgbgwefrf] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:49 -!- qiemem [uid14911@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fibpqgzmdrdaxmda] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:49 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxgelypeilkgqjhv] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:49 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:56:56 Is that a cosmological event or a gathering of people who use the award-winning IDE of the same name? 17:58:05 abbe [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 17:58:06 IDE. 17:58:22 I'm here for work, and it's a bit strange as I'm taking notes in Emacs. 17:58:50 Ah 17:58:52 org-mode? 17:58:56 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:14 jaccarmac: Any cool stuff you're learning at this event? 17:59:18 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:38 kristof: Yeah, Org mode. Waiting for a talk on Dart to start right now. 17:59:40 ejbs [~user@h82-117-106-112.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 Should be interesting. We'll see. 17:59:50 oh, fascinating 18:00:01 I haven't heard much about dart since it sort of launched into the wild around... 2011? 18:00:18 kahu [~kahu@c213-89-204-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:00:23 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:00:47 A new browser language seems like a rough sell 18:00:55 Given that JS has become so popular 18:01:03 I was actually just thinking that 18:01:23 they compile to JS, the Dartium (IIRC) VM that ran it directly got kinda torpedoed 18:01:24 The only reason why JS became so popular was because netscape threw it into their browser, so it was not like a hard adoption process had to happen 18:01:26 Of course, it's about using Eclipse for Dark. 18:01:39 Personally, I like the CLJ(S) ecosystem. 18:01:49 p_l: Ah, I wasn't aware that they sank the ship on that one 18:01:53 I don't think pure JS will reign supreme for much longer. 18:01:58 *Dart 18:02:03 There's a standalone Dart VM iirc? 18:02:19 jaccarmac: There's a CLJS ecosystem? I'm not sure what you're referring to: libraries, community, developers, ideas, etc. 18:02:21 I dunno, never really looked at it. 18:02:22 kristof: Mozilla foundation fights hard against anything that threatens JS monopoly 18:02:43 p_l: I also didn't know that. But it makes sense, if you look at it from the perspective of open-web. 18:02:44 I mean web apps developed using CLJ for backend and CLJS (and HTML5) for frontend. 18:02:46 milosn [~milosn@genkt-056-012.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 Oh, I see. Yes, that's nice :) 18:03:39 CLJ as in CLoJure? 18:03:43 kristof: Dart was not really against open web, neither is (P)NaCL - their interfaces and specs don't require one to use specific browser, and indeed NaCL afaik started under Firefox 18:04:59 p_l: Yes, but "you have to have this software in order to run this" could maybe kind of lead to vendor lock in, if the dart VM ever became proprietary. 18:05:07 I don't think Google would do that but it's a risky thing to let it happen. 18:05:32 Just speculating. 18:05:37 ejbs: that's the one. 18:06:27 jaccarmac: Is there some convenience in having clojurescript processes communicate with a server-side clojure application? 18:06:29 ejbs: That's correct. 18:06:32 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:06:33 contribute a CL implementation with a JS frontend to browers? 18:06:50 dim: Don't you mean a JS backend? 18:06:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:07:00 kristof: Not sure. I haven't written anything yet? 18:07:07 I don't know, something that accepts JS in and knows how to run it 18:07:19 fortitud1 [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:21 jaccarmac: I see. Well pop in here and let me know what you're up to if you ever find yourself doing something interesting with it :) 18:07:24 dim: Would that really be interesting though? CL is a pretty large standard, a new Lisp for frontend web-programming would be more interesting 18:07:27 Also, the speaker is just saying that Dart's open source. So the Dart -> JS compiler will always be available. 18:07:37 Not much rich of lock-in, I think. 18:07:44 ejbs: what about reusing something battle tested and documented? 18:07:49 Google's not that evil. But we will see. 18:08:08 Heh, after buying boston dynamics... 18:08:12 "Sure, we'll let you compile this into JS... just sign into G+." 18:08:14 *kristof* refrains from a skynet joke 18:08:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:09 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:10:37 BSD licensed. But why am I even defending this? Just check on GitHub. 18:10:42 :-) 18:11:02 has someone mentioned parenscript yet? 18:11:35 I'm not sure we were talking about things that compile to javascript to begin with 18:11:57 kristof: clojurescript was mentioned 18:11:58 although the direction of the conversation quite quickly spaghettified 18:12:02 and dart 18:12:05 kristof: Sorry, that's what I was talking about. 18:12:32 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:12:43 jasom: Good observation. 18:13:00 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 benny [~benny@shell.spamt.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 cenhyperion [~cenhyperi@192.241.224.166] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebldnktmndmtwivs] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 _d3f [~gnu@vm5.rout0r.org] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 prip_ [~foo@host25-133-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 Adeon [~valaat@109.73.169.52] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 drdo [~drdo@2a02:2498:e000:20::16f:2] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 Munksgaard [munksgaard@hub.pronoia.dk] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-ijxkqlnmgbgwefrf] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 qiemem [uid14911@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fibpqgzmdrdaxmda] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxgelypeilkgqjhv] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 -!- barjavel.freenode.net has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 18:13:20 Parenscript is different from clojurescript because as far as I can tell, parenscript is just writing java in sexpr notation. 18:13:40 I looked into targeting asm.js with common-lisp and it's not pretty, since as far as I can tell dynamically generated asm.js would need to pay a penalty for calling across the function() boundary 18:13:58 dim: That's true but it's not like we haven't discovered any flaws in Common Lisp. I'd rather do something new and risky, but yeah. You do have a point 18:14:11 One would rather know the flaws beforehan than discovering them 18:14:12 ejbs: what flaws? 18:14:23 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64693.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:25 I don't know of any big flaws. 18:14:34 pathnames 18:14:47 Do people really need to deploy to UNIX and Windows? 18:14:57 libraries really need to work on both 18:14:59 pathnames are broken even just on linux 18:15:08 dlowe: That is not a problem with the language itself. 18:15:13 kristof: the idea with Dart was that the spec would be public. The big sticking point was the proposition of portable bytecode, afaik 18:15:23 dlowe: Oh, I misunderstood what you said. 18:15:45 jasom: How are pathnames broken? They seem different with how modern filesystems/OS's do them but are they "bad"? 18:15:52 p_l: Portable bytecode? Across the internet? That is nothing new, JIT compilers for Java already do that 18:15:58 Javascript I mean 18:16:23 ejbs: There are files on my system that can't be represented in a lisp pathname. That's fine if you are in the world where lisp is all you have, but terrible if you want to interoperate 18:16:28 kristof: I wasn't thinking of any in particular, if you would like to know some then Google it. 18:16:35 -!- victor_lowther [sid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccbpgwezfdlfzfas] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16:40 kristof: yes. Except apparently short, succint binary format is anathema, better do crazy shit with parsers to compress and obfuscate 18:16:43 jasom: Really? Like what? 18:16:50 ./foo* 18:17:19 victor_lowther_ [sid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdrvvwgbaxiburpw] has joined #lisp 18:17:35 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:17:40 -!- sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:17:43 sbcl can't open pathnames with #\* in them, ccl can't open pathnames with #\\ in them 18:17:48 ejbs: Burden of proof lies on you, I think. I'm not trying to be combative. 18:18:34 (make-pathname :directory '(:relative ".") :name "foo*") wfm 18:18:37 kristof: Oh no man, I didn't mean it in a combative way. I literally just meant that Google can bring up more flaws than I can and give a better reasoning about them than I can 18:18:50 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:19:57 ejbs: Yes, but I'm letting you know that I've tried to search for these things before and besides Daniel Weinreb's comments at the '09 int'l lisp con (RIP Mr. Weinreb), many of those complaints I disagree with, too, I cannot find much else. 18:21:23 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 18:21:57 dlowe: that will also match "foox" "fooy" etc. 18:22:00 dlowe: since * is a wildcard 18:22:23 It does look like sbcl has added backslash escapes, which is not part of the spec IIRC 18:22:58 so (directory #p"foo\\*") works in sbcl, but that's not portable 18:23:19 jasom: not true. 18:23:22 Does it matter if that's portable? 18:23:32 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 18:24:17 If someone has made an implementation that only adheres to the spec and doesn't bother adding anything else, and has no facilities for doing things in pathnames that can be abstracted out into a portable pathnames library, whose fault is that? 18:24:26 kristof: Oh alright. You could read http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1495 as a criticism (or at least a longing for a different typesystem) of the Lisp typesystem. There's also that Fare blogpost about Common Lisp compilation. Isn't there also perceived problems of CLOS and multi-threading? 18:25:08 ejbs: Aren't there problems with OO and multithreading, in general? 18:25:10 ejbs: I think the mult-threading issue is more of PCL thing 18:25:11 if you want a wildcard, you do (make-pathname :directory '(:relative ".") :name :wild), but there's no portable way to get a "foo*" wildcard with make-pathname 18:25:55 dlowe: http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mirrorselect 18:26:17 grr 18:26:26 dlowe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_ca.htm 18:26:31 *dlowe* sighs. 18:26:54 note "word---one or more uppercase letters, digits, and hyphens. " <-- any pathname component with something other than that is non-portable 18:27:07 I've got a directory with testx, testy, and test* in it. This returns only test* in sbcl: (directory (make-pathname :directory '(:relative ".") :name "foo*") 18:28:16 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:17 Back to Dart: They do snapshots, apparently. Somewhat like Lisp snapshots. 18:28:29 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:24 also, apparently ccl fixed it's backslash escape in logical pathnames so sbcl and ccl both can now open files with non letter/digit/hyphens 18:32:02 but they do so by violating the spec 18:32:11 since they return logical pathnames that don't match the spec 18:33:14 if that was the case, there wouldn't be a whole section on case in pathname components: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_19-2-2-1-2.html 18:33:58 kristof, are you serious or do you mean OO in lisp/CLOS? 18:35:25 okay so when I ran into issues and was told by several people that "you can't portably open files with asterisks in them" they were wrong, and it was actually implementation bugs 18:35:57 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:36:22 *jasom* needs to report clisp then, for which DIRECTORY lists a file with a name of "*" as #p/path/to/file/*" and can't open it 18:37:20 *JuanDaugherty* thinks that the whole deal of really abstracting particular file systems to a general lib inhibits that (i.e. a good generic pathlib thing, not just in lisp) 18:38:11 i.e. the work of actual making something that really works with even a handful of the major fs'es 18:40:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64693.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:40:32 So I was wrong about pathnames 18:40:48 well, they're still not that pleasant to work with 18:40:51 You're not wrong about that. 18:41:14 dlowe: I wasn't able to list a directory and open each file in the directroy about 2 years ago. At least I can do that now 18:41:29 progress! 18:42:14 dlowe: I have a program that used iolib to open files just because I had files with asterisks in them and sbcl couldn't handle them, and I had files with backslashes in them and ccl couldn't handle them 18:42:20 now they both handle both 18:42:25 JuanDaugherty: I was serious :P 18:42:41 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC7F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:17 here's another stupidity: (stringp (make-array 0 :element-type nil)) => T 18:43:25 well obviously threading is well worked out in a lot of langs/enviroments where it gets heavy production use 18:43:42 especially c++ 18:44:10 *environments 18:44:21 -!- Loymoev [~loymoev@host-99-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:23 kristof: "threading" as in "Use mutexes to manage mutable shared state" is broken. That's not the only threading model though 18:44:28 -!- sz0 [~user@208.72.139.54] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:45:05 jasom: Wait, why does that happen? 18:45:18 (the make-array bit) 18:45:24 ejbs: because a string is the class of an array of a sub-type of character 18:45:30 ejbs: and nil is a subtype of all types 18:45:35 in interpreter based langs java has a similar profile to c++ on that 18:46:03 JuanDaugherty: why is java "interpreter based"? 18:46:07 jasom: That's about the only way to do threading with objects, isn't it? 18:46:28 kristof: not at all. What about sending objects over channels, and you lose ownership of an object once it's sent? 18:46:32 jasonm because it works thru a vm 18:46:38 jasom: So stuff like corba 18:47:08 kristof: well CSP based stuff. Corba is a bit overengineered 18:47:13 others have it well worked out but in idiosyncratic ways like in smalltalk 18:47:34 Threading isn't broken, it's just difficult 18:47:59 JuanDaugherty: java can be compiled to native code, and there are also hardware implementations of the java machine, so I would not call it interpreted. Also, if I run C inside virtualbox is it now "interpreter based" since it works through a vm? 18:48:02 Many successful software projects are based on mutexes and barriers 18:48:20 dodgy langs are like lisp and haskell maybe but the underlying stuff, the threadlibs and soforth are super solid and have to be 18:48:25 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:26 JuanDaugherty: also, the specification of C++ specifically references a "virtual machine" for purposes of talking about how storage accesses work 18:48:51 I think the phrase is "abstract machine" 18:48:54 *JuanDaugherty* facepalms 18:49:03 jasom: I guess I'm mostly surprised that SBCL decides to print it out as the empty string and not the empty array 18:49:34 *jasom* checks the spec 18:49:52 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 18:50:13 ggole: you're right "abstract machine" 18:51:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.245.152] has quit [Quit: bed] 18:51:34 ggole: but defining java in terms of its behavior on a virtual machine is not meaningfully different from defining c++ by its behavior on an abstract machine 18:51:41 -!- nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:52:16 nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 You can program to the interface of the former: not so the latter. 18:52:21 jasom: I never thought about CSP in a way that involved objects. Dumping an object (or any other compount data structure) into a channel and then giving it to whatever consumer wants it sounds interesting, though 18:52:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:45 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:45 rotty_ [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 18:52:51 jasom: I've only thought about CSP in terms of basic data constructs but if you're managing a lot of objects, then yeah, that sounds like a usable model 18:52:55 ggole: I think the difficulty of manually managing mutexes and barriers for any non-trivial multithreaded application is suffuciently more challenging than (for example) manual memory management to make it a qualitative difference, IMO 18:53:11 ggole: ^ Another problem is that mutexes are hard to scale. 18:53:27 "Difficult" is not the same thing as "broken" 18:53:36 (Although it is the same thing as "somebody will get this wrong", I guess.) 18:54:00 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:54:18 I think jasom means that the idea that mutexes are a good idea for massively concurrent applications is broken. 18:54:46 ggole: if something is sufficiently difficult, it is broken; can we agree on that even if we disagree whether or not multithreading with mutexes are obove that threshold? 18:54:47 Except there are many highly concurrent applications implemented with mutexes 18:55:02 OSes, browsers, databases, language runtimes, etc 18:55:22 They all more or less work 18:55:36 ggole: But they aren't getting better well enough. 18:55:43 At least many people don't think so. 18:56:09 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:09 I think there is a reason Firefox is trying to eventually move its codebase to Rust. 18:56:29 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:46 Memory safety would be valuable for an OS or a browser: probably more valuable than replacing mutexes. 18:57:00 What exactly isn't memory safe? 18:57:09 There's a reason people don't like writing multi-user, concurrent apps. They are really easy to crappify. 18:57:45 IMO memory safety via manual memory managment is more easily achievable than thread-safety via manual mutexes. 18:57:57 kristof: eh? When you keep an iterator to a vector and it changes out from under you, that's a memory safety problem 18:57:58 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 ggole: Right. So immutability is a solution to that, isn't it? 18:58:52 The only other option is to stop-the-world with a mutex 18:59:10 It's mostly orthogonal 18:59:27 or don't share a vector between threads 18:59:36 kristof: Or you can have a mixed solution like Clojure kinda does (as I understand it). Essentially have VC for variables. 18:59:45 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:47 You don't need threads to get into trouble with iterator invalidation. 18:59:51 jaccarmac: VC? I was actually thinking about clojure when I said that. 19:00:07 I'm talking about memory safety, not threading 19:00:10 kristof: To me, Clojure's model is like have version numbers for your variables. 19:00:17 Thus, VC (version control). 19:00:23 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFFCB3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: off] 19:00:41 ggole: How else do you get into trouble with iterator invalidation? 19:00:45 It's the way you write applications, after all. Depend on certain versions of packages. Only upgrade if you want to. 19:01:02 By doing what I said: holding an iterator and having the vector mutated from under you. 19:01:03 jaccarmac: That's not half-way, that's still immutability. 19:01:12 ggole: That's still threading, if only green-threading. 19:01:17 (By, ie, making a function call across which the iterator is live) 19:01:31 Oh, I see 19:01:37 kristof: I suppose. 19:02:21 Rust solves that one, at the expense of some complexity 19:02:26 jaccarmac: Are you familiar with how persistent collections work? It's how F#, Scala, and Clojure can make large collections "immutable", change it over time, and not have to copy everything each time 19:02:36 ggole: oh, well that's just a use after free in a single-threaded. There are all sorts of tools to find those for you, both statically and at run-time. 19:02:37 It has some involved, but rather neat lifetime stuff in the type system. 19:02:45 Oh, I heard about that 19:02:57 kristof: Yes. 19:02:59 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 ggole: But perhaps the problem was in someone trying to mutate a vector while they were iterating over it. 19:03:06 ggole: it has really crappy lifetime stuff in the type system. Among other things it can't safely handle circular references 19:03:09 jasom: if those tools worked, browsers would not be being repeatedly fucked by use-after-free bugs. 19:03:32 so doubly-linked lists and trees with parent references are out, or need to use unsafe references 19:03:36 kristof: Like I said before, it's like a VC system. Diffs (of a sort). 19:04:31 ggole: It sounds like I just repeated what you said but what I'm emphasizing is that someone shouldn't be doing that in the first place and so to go to great lenghts to prevent that in the type system smells fishy to me 19:04:39 ggole: those tools work, you just need to use them. A few million man-hours could make chrome or firefox completely memory safe 19:05:00 kristof: yes, they shouldn't be doing that. How exactly do you plan to stop them, though? 19:05:30 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 Is your plan to just let it happen and watch as some Eastern European black hat takes off with all your customer's shit after wrecking your sandbox browser's "security"? 19:05:42 And then say "oops, shouldn't have done that"? 19:05:45 preventing it in the type-system is a good idea. I think a lot of the memory issues with C could be solved by having separate types for nullable and non-nullable pointers.. on the other hand I don't think we're talking about lisp anymore 19:05:47 That's not a good approach, shall we say. 19:06:04 ggole: Don't, let natural selection take its course. I view it as the same "problem" of people trying to modify what should be private variables in static OO languages; it was not documented in the API for you to use, everyone told you not to use it, so why are you doing it? 19:06:08 Which is why Rust is trying what they are trying. 19:06:23 -!- jaccarmac [jaccarmac@nat/google/x-vdqhyvrqqgyasecu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:08:02 ggole: Maybe it is instigatory of me to say this but the Eastern-European comment was a bit racist. 19:09:41 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:11:54 Hmm, was it? The intended meaning was to reference the amount of black-hat activity there, not to suggest that Eastern Europeans are less ethical. 19:12:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 19:12:16 I apologize for any offense. 19:23:09 cgore [~cgore@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:31 Then I misinterpreted, I'm sorry. 19:24:17 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-150.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:59 *JuanDaugherty* definitely doesn't think that was racist. 19:27:30 wedgeV [~wedge@74.123.202.211] has joined #lisp 19:27:59 *JuanDaugherty* stereotyping at worst. 19:28:46 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:29:03 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:25 at some point the numbers in a population of a character make the recognition of it a simple objective fact 19:29:34 dunno if that's such a case though 19:30:16 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:30:30 It's intended the other way: I was stereotyping black hats, not Eastern Europeans 19:30:51 A mistake either way. 19:31:11 ggole: What's the difference between RAII and UNWIND-PROTECT? 19:31:23 Since we were talking about lifetimes. 19:31:46 They're very similar: RAII is like a slightly generalised unwind-protect 19:32:04 Generalised in that you can attach it to data structures and not just the call stack. 19:32:34 ggole: Do you necessarily need to attach it to data-structures if you simply use it everywhere you think you're going to access a datastructure? I'm thinking of this as a "takes-two-to-tango" scenario. 19:33:05 Oh! But sometimes it makes more sense to let the data structure take care of that, right? 19:33:16 Well, that's the way that it is designed in C++. I suppose you could try some other tack in a new language. 19:33:25 Right. 19:33:59 ggole: I was just thinking that simply writing method bodies wrapped in UNWIND-PROTECTs would take care of whatever you would use lifetimes for. 19:34:19 It takes care of most situations, I would say. 19:34:27 I see. 19:34:41 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:51 If you want to stash a file in a list, for example, you couldn't use unwind-protect to make sure it is closed after becoming unreachable. 19:34:58 Perhaps I'm forcing everything to work from the perspective of a function. 19:35:01 But you usually don't need to do that. 19:35:24 Acherontius [~Acheronti@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 ggole: Okay, let me extrapolate this for a little bit. 19:35:36 Same with mutexes, database connections, etc 19:36:15 -!- Acherontius [~Acheronti@204.116.186.34] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:34 ggole: Usually when you work with files, you'll use (with-open-file . . .) so that it closes after the body returns, but sometimes you want a file to be a shared resource, right? Because many things might be trying to access it. So there's no opprotunity to insert an unwind-protect for closing the file, anywhere, because you're never sure which process is going to be the last to look at a file 19:37:26 Right. The usual approach there is to keep a reference count, and unwind-protect that. 19:37:44 Could the garbage collector itself be juryrigged to do something of that nature? 19:37:56 Yes, this is usually called a "finalizer" 19:37:59 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 19:38:01 I assume the garbage collector is the one place where you know references are going to be kept 19:38:08 But it is a bad idea to rely on finalizers being run 19:38:22 Okay. Does, uh, common lisp support direct access to that? To support custom behaviors that aren't, you know, just closing a file. 19:38:28 ggole: why is that? 19:38:34 Because they make take an arbitrarily long time to be reclaimed by the GC 19:38:40 ooooh, I see 19:38:41 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 19:38:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 19:38:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:38:43 And not just in theory but in practice too. 19:38:52 You're never sure when the GC is going to run and deallocate 19:38:54 It's easy to effectively leak FDs 19:38:59 file-descriptors? 19:39:02 Yeah 19:39:07 Right, I can't remember how many is the max for something like SBCL 19:39:21 It's usually OS specific. 19:39:33 I'm also not sure why there's a maximum amount of file-descriptors you can be using but I'm sure that's just due to my lack of knowledge of operating system theory 19:39:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 ggole: So how does C++ do it, then? Where does it keep track of references, and what exactly is getting called from where to do that deallocation? 19:40:38 The OS has to keep tables of meta-data. It's not good to require arbitrary storage for those tables, since a malicious program could request too much and starve the system. 19:40:46 oh, I see 19:40:48 So they cap it. 19:41:10 Specifically in this file-descriptor example. 19:41:55 C++ uses snippets of code called destructors: when an object goes out of scope, the destructor will be invoked on the object 19:42:15 normanrichards [~textual@66-90-218-28.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:24 If there's any associated resource like an FD, it should be closed by the destructor. 19:42:46 If there are any sub-objects, they should have their destructors run too. 19:42:50 -!- normanrichards [~textual@66-90-218-28.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:42:50 Who's keeping track of the scope? 19:42:59 The compiler does. 19:43:01 I'm sorry if I'm being bothersome, this is a fascinating subject. 19:43:06 Oh! So this is all static analysis, I see. 19:43:34 Hmm, that's half the story 19:43:39 ah, there's more 19:44:10 destructors run on free'd objects, right? 19:44:39 i mean, in addition to out of scope automatic variables. 19:44:40 The other half is that a destructor can conditionally call the destructors of sub-objects that are *pointed to* by the object under consideration. 19:45:08 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:45:18 Ie, if it owns remote storage that has been allocated by new/malloc/whatever, it can go and free it (and call the destructors on anything that is living there). 19:45:21 This is the dynamic part. 19:45:57 Ok. 19:46:28 So this is what unwind-protect does not provide. 19:46:48 The going-out-of-scope thing is essentially the same as unwind-protect 19:47:11 ggole: So (with-open-* . . .) doesn't work because you can't share that, and finalizers don't work because GC runs are arbitrary and could keep things open for a while. I see the point of lifetimes, now. 19:47:17 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@74.123.202.211] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 19:47:20 ggole: How do you jury-rig this onto common lisp? 19:47:21 <_death> dtors make for a fragile system 19:47:28 -!- _death is now known as adeht 19:47:56 I don't know: I've always made do with unwind-protect 19:48:04 It does cover the majority of cases 19:48:12 for example, if you (or rather, your users) care about what you've written to an fd, you shouldn't close it via dtor 19:48:40 adeht: If it's out of scope, how would they find out, anyway? 19:48:55 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:1002:1c74:ff75:47b2] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 kristof: I am talking about error handling/reporting 19:49:19 adeht: Ok. 19:50:19 Yeah, dtors are not a good place for any kind of logic 19:50:26 kristof: since dtors don't have a good way to return values, and since they shouldn't throw exceptions, the result of close() which can be important for error handling/reporting is ignored 19:51:10 *shouldn't exit with an exception 19:51:18 adeht: Then they should exit with a warning. 19:51:27 adeht: That's what warnings are for in Common Lisp, aren't they? 19:51:33 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:51:49 kristof: in CL you can have nested error situations so it's no problem 19:51:51 signal a condition but go on doing whatever you were doing 19:52:09 kristof: I was talking about C++ and its destructors 19:52:22 adeht: Ah. I was talking about CL and its lack thereof. 19:52:37 Conditions are nice that way 19:52:43 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-224-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:52:43 :) 19:53:06 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-224-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:17 CL's condition system surprises me. I always thought the only way to do errors was catch and throw. 19:53:47 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:54:42 *ggole* is a bit of a fan of just calling abort() 19:54:50 Of course that's not appropriate in many situations 19:55:35 it's a good idea to read the notes section in the close(2) manpage 19:56:04 malkomalko [~malkomalk@66-234-38-99.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 FIND-RESTART also surprises me. 19:57:05 Is there a way to programmatically create new restarts at runtime that's based on runtime information? 19:57:31 Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has joined #lisp 19:57:33 Perhaps so that a program could restart in a way that makes sense given what has happened during program execution 19:57:51 restart-bind, i think 19:58:03 well, uh 19:58:04 kristof: do you know of Kent M. Pitman's articles re the condition system? 19:58:06 don't think i've ever used it 19:58:06 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:10 adeht: Not at all 19:58:16 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/ 19:59:29 good reading material there 19:59:34 how do dynamic bindings behave with respect to threading? 19:59:37 I'll bookmark this 19:59:40 Yep. Pitman is a very careful and clear writer. 19:59:49 fiveop: I don't think that's defined in the spec 19:59:50 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:1002:1c74:ff75:47b2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:03 kristof: the spec doesn't talk about threads at all, does it? 20:00:08 kristof: the ones I'm referring to are Condition Handling in the Lisp Language Family and Exceptional Situations In Lisp 20:00:45 I think pretty much everything does special variables per-thread. 20:00:47 Don't quote me on that. 20:00:54 adeht: I could tell, I'm reading it now 20:01:12 Bike: restart-bind just sets up a dynamic environment with some restarts that already exist. 20:01:32 oh 20:01:38 That sounds useful 20:01:42 check again? 20:01:42 ggole: so if a new thread starts in the context of a dynamic binding, is that binding 'inherited' by the new thread or is it unbound? (in sbcl, say :)) 20:01:52 Bike: That's straight from the hyper-spec 20:02:33 kristof: no, you make the restart by specifying report-function and s on 20:02:59 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:03:00 er, the main function, rather 20:03:05 fiveop: pretty sure it's inherited... one moment 20:03:07 "If invoke-restart is done on that restart, the function which resulted from evaluating function is called, in the dynamic environment of the invoke-restart, with the arguments given to invoke-restart." 20:03:19 Bike: I see what you're talking about now, thank you. I think I could probably cut myself with this but I will keep this in mind for the future :) 20:03:22 it's evaluated, so you could pass it (compile nil ...) or whatever stupid thing 20:03:48 "threads do not inherit dynamic bindings from the parent thread" 20:03:53 but i've never used it, and i don't think most people have either, given the mild weirdness with restarts (there's no make-restart, with-condition-restarts is weird as hell, etc) 20:03:54 So much for my "pretty sure" 20:04:29 :) 20:05:04 The *global value*, however, is visible everywhere 20:05:14 Bike: I used them to good effect 20:05:20 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:32 ggole: Can't you manually inherit the current dynamic environment in the new thread, should you want to? 20:05:42 I don't know what operators are used for moving environments around 20:05:43 Bike: or are you speaking of raw restart-bind? 20:05:53 ...I don't think environments are first-class, anyway. 20:05:53 adeht: raw restart-bind, yeah, restarts are common enough. 20:06:13 Bike: not sure I used that one ;) 20:06:21 kristof: you can't get a list of all symbols currently dynamically bound, at least 20:06:29 :( 20:06:33 ggole: IIRC in sbcl dynamic bindings are inherited but don't propogate across existing threads 20:06:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:38 kristof: that's a pretty funky thing to want to be doing. I don't know the answer. 20:06:53 you can use progv to make any dynamic environment you want, though 20:06:56 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:05 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:16 jasom: I'm going by http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Special-Variables 20:07:17 ggole: Well, if you wanted to start a thread and do something with the old dynamic environment. 20:07:19 sbcl has symbol-value-in-thread and different threads can have their own bindings, at least 20:07:24 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:29 Bike: I know there's &env for macros. 20:07:37 Probably isn't quite what I'm asking for, though 20:07:44 Plus that's not going to transfer to some thread 20:07:54 kristof: it's not, and also those aren't really first class anyway. 20:08:03 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:04 Handicap! 20:08:46 you can get a list of all interned symbols that are dynamically bound though by enumerating every symbol in every package and calling symbol-value on them 20:08:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:56 slow! 20:08:58 ok, yes, you could do that. 20:09:04 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:10 Oh, there would be no other way to do that, anyway 20:09:31 that doesn't solve dynamically bound gensyms though 20:09:37 Because without explicitly touching every interned symbol, you'd be using pointers to refer to previous references, but you're in a new thread so you don't want that 20:10:13 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:15 picolisp has first class environments, I wonder how they handle inter-thread ; 20:10:19 ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:27 picolisp is not multithreaded, never mind. 20:10:53 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:21 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:54 there's a difference between lexical and dynamic environments, anyway 20:11:57 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:03 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:12:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:24 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:47 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:02 Right, but lexical environments aren't the problem, dynamic ones are (across threads, I mean) 20:14:17 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 you'd have to manually set that environment up everytime you spawn a thread without an explicit INHERIT-ENV operator 20:14:39 which one does picolisp have first class? 20:14:47 dynamic, not lexical 20:14:57 oh. 20:15:15 i think i remember sbcl's threads being heavyweight because the tls includes all dynamic variables, i'm not sure though 20:15:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:44 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 20:16:13 Bike: ggole just mentioned that the spec says that threads do not inheret bindings. But Jasom just said what you said for sbcl. 20:16:18 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:16 You still need a per-thread place for each dynamic var, since that's how binding works 20:17:21 right 20:17:38 *x* may be global but you can still rebind it just for the thread. 20:17:46 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:17:52 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:53 Does SBCL have a "set place" where it stores dynamic vars so that it doesn't have to iterate through the symbols? 20:17:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:17:59 ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:06 tls? 20:18:10 ..what is tls 20:18:14 thread-local storage 20:18:18 a part of memory. 20:18:20 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:21 Derp. That. 20:18:34 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 20:18:40 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:40 i think this is all in one of the humongous make-thread functions 20:18:43 but I imagine there is more in TLS than dynamic vars. Lexical ones, for instance? 20:19:34 well, yeah, you wouldn't just raw-copy tls. 20:19:50 Lexically scoped vars have no particular location, really 20:20:09 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 20:20:12 They can go on the stack, on the heap, in registers, be eliminated by copy propagation, etc at the whim of the implementation. 20:20:28 hmph 20:20:49 This abstract nature is one of the huge advantages of lexical scope. 20:21:02 memory management details are probably the stuff of nightmares, anyway. I shouldn't delve into it too much. 20:21:08 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 i think i was thinking f what's now in initial-thread-function-trampoline, which rebinds about a dozen dynamic variables 20:21:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 20:21:52 and has three layers of catch, yes, this is the monster. 20:22:30 I can tell that's likely to be fun just by looking at the name. 20:23:00 read that as "three-layers-of-crotch", a monster indeed 20:23:04 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 20:23:08 yes, it also takes three arguments called arg1, arg2, and arg3 20:24:10 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:12 "As people report problems with the thread safety of certain variables,(e.g. "*print-case* in multiple threads broken", sbcl-devel 2006-07-14), we add a few more bindings here." 20:24:14 Nice. 20:24:29 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:33 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:25:21 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:30 ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:10 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.143.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:57 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:29:03 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-208-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 20:32:40 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:00 *JuanDaugherty* notes there was an apparent false equivocation between a vm such as that in smalltalk or java and "vm" in a hardware virtualization context such as Xen, purposeful obscuratism oder 20:33:23 don't wanna let stuff like that go as if tacitly accepted 20:33:42 That's somewhat wrong. 20:33:49 on the internet! 20:33:59 qemu-user-randomcpu is absolutely equivalent to an application VM. 20:34:13 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:34:16 qemu-system-randomcpu and the app VMs, not so much, but yea 20:34:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:35:05 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:36:36 Also, lol =p Didn't mean to ignore your joke, it was funny. 20:42:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:44:19 keen___ [~blackened@p73a2a7fb.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:44:42 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBBD21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 -!- keen__ [~blackened@pdf879961.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:18 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:46:14 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:46:56 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 20:50:04 microt [~caustic@c-67-169-99-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51:15 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dccad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:45 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:53:45 nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:47 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 "Note, too, that in some possible future world, knowledge representation may have advanced enough that handlers could, rather than act unconditionally on behalf of the signaler, merely return a representation of a set of potential actions accompanied by descriptive information respresenting motivations, consequences, and even qualitative representations of the goodness of each." Strange concept. 20:58:04 symbolic AI people sure are funny.. 20:58:32 -!- malkomalko [~malkomalk@66-234-38-99.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [] 20:58:34 -!- knob [~knob@173.243.89.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:59 The next line talks about letting the signaler decide what to do based on the knowledge-representation, but that's kind of silly 20:59:02 Wait, no it's not 20:59:31 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:32 I was thinking about signalers in terms of simple stuff like a file-walker that comes across an unparseable line, or something. But For really, really advanced stuff, like maybe 20:59:59 a "face-walker" that looks for micro-expressions 21:00:30 It could signal a condition if an undecideable expression is found, and request a decision from a handler, i.e. a supercomputer that has better information about certain microexpressions 21:00:52 But what would be the benefit of having the signaler decide what to do instead of the handler? 21:01:09 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 21:01:26 But unless you want to be constantly handling undecideable expressions, might as well handle that as "has to use bathroom" 21:01:32 -!- nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:01:55 nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:12 To keep the logic on the signaler side? That seems counter to a lot of design decisions in the common lisp condition system. But it might make sense if the signaler was a server, and the handler was a server/super-computer. Of course, then the handler isn't actually handling anything. It's more like a reference. Hrm. 21:03:58 maybe it would be useful then to remove the handler-signal model in that case and have... cohandlers? 21:04:33 Where one signals to another every once in a while. But that just sounds like coroutines, where each coroutine has a handler and a few signalers attached. *shrug* 21:05:38 jaccarmac [user@nat/google/x-xouemlaqwzzkrsuw] has joined #lisp 21:05:50 Hello! 21:07:20 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:48 przl [~przlrkt@p5DD14544.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:18 -!- nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:08:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:01 -!- jaccarmac [user@nat/google/x-xouemlaqwzzkrsuw] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:07 nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-puzkskwnmkvqqgur] has joined #lisp 21:12:15 -!- nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:26 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-100-202.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:48 -!- antgreen 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[green@nat/redhat/x-dsyriwuxuaanwtci] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:08 Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 22:02:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-126.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:03:42 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:51 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.239.36] has joined #lisp 22:05:12 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DD14544.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:05:21 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:14 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:23 Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 22:10:03 staykov [~wiggin@pdpc/supporter/active/staykov] has joined #lisp 22:10:13 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:37 hey im new starting with lisp, im a little boggled by the number of dialects 22:11:16 should i be selecting one on some criteria or just pick one to get me started? 22:11:20 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:11:34 this channel is about common lisp, so pick that one 22:13:29 Megro [~megro@ppp-94-65-200-142.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:13:32 staykov: the various dialects of lisp aren't anymore similar than, say, C++ and Java. 22:14:04 i guess i meant distribution, there seem to be quite a few 22:14:31 you mean like sbcl, ccl, so on? 22:16:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:16:10 ahh yes - from what i understand sbcl is pretty much the one that is by the standard 22:16:55 francogrex [6d804dd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.128.77.216] has joined #lisp 22:17:08 ccl is also good. but there's a lot of concern for the actual standard, so you should be pretty alright with any of them for working. 22:17:23 sbcl with emacs+slime as the IDE is pretty standard. Isn't there a lisp-in-a-box that does that with quicklisp? 22:17:55 -!- Megro [~megro@ppp-94-65-200-142.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:59 should i consider racket? the only one ive had trouble installing is sbcl 22:18:07 i went to it so i can use Limp 22:18:11 not racket p^lease 22:18:20 racket isn't common lisp. 22:18:27 ahh okay 22:18:30 racket isn't even scheme 22:18:30 rackit is not common lisp. It's not even scheme anymore I think. 22:18:36 it's a mongrel 22:19:08 staykov: clisp installs really easy, so for getting started you might want to use that. 22:19:11 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB32E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:13 if you want scheme I'd recommend Chicken (because of the name >.<) 22:19:28 it was called PLT or something then they changed it to "racket".. pretty disgusting really 22:19:36 staykov: it generates slower code than other lisp compilers though, which is why it's not as commen 22:19:45 Megro [~quassel@ppp-94-65-200-142.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:20:57 staykov: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ <-- that also should be easy to get started with 22:22:38 the only thing is i dont know how to use emacs, thats why i am messing with sbcl 22:22:57 Hello Everyone, I have a question, relevant to lisp. I was reading this article yesterday (http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html) about how they used lisp in NASA during the 70s to program their space missions. Intruiging stuff! but it got me thinking, if they americans used Lisp to fly to the moon, what did the russians used? 22:23:20 staykov: emacs isn't too hard to get started with. You can use just the mouse and menus for everything at first 22:23:26 Megro: this article starts in 1988. 22:23:33 having some issues running sbcl: http://pastie.org/8561787 22:23:38 Megro: the apollo missions used a very idiosyncratic kind of machine code. 22:23:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:01 ok, true but the question still stands 22:24:08 yeah, let me look up luna here... 22:24:46 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:48 ahh okay i didnt have an SBCL_HOME set 22:24:50 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:25:16 scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:25:29 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:29 the early Luna missions probably didn't use any computers 22:25:46 is that even possible? 22:25:51 staykov: it is worth figuring out the basics of emacs to have a good ide. 22:26:04 Bike: they didn't use *digital* computers you mean. Probably analog computers 22:26:06 Megro: there is such a thing as mechanism, you know :D 22:26:10 yeah, jasom might be right. 22:26:20 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.98] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:21 and probably a lot of radio control. 22:26:35 ok, fair enough 22:26:36 Idk, computers are pretty necessary. We couldn't make cars, rockets, missiles, or refrigerators without them. 22:26:55 heddwch: we made all of those without computers (or are you being sarcastic?) 22:26:59 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 22:27:03 jasom: but ive been using vim for ages and dont really want to write in something else for one language 22:27:12 staykov: then you want evil 22:27:13 jasom: The latter =p Mostly just thinking of random fairly precision machinery 22:27:32 jasom: it looks like Limp can do some of the things 22:27:33 Other than the refrigerator, that was just for fun 22:28:19 -!- erg_ is now known as erg 22:29:10 staykov: I used limp and slimv and they are not as good as using emacs with evil-mode (which is a vim emulation layer for emacs) 22:29:44 *jasom* uses vim for everything for about a decade, and other vi programs for another decade before that 22:30:54 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBBD21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:31:22 hmm im not sure, changing tools is such a huge undertaking, i am so used to my plugins and etc 22:31:38 Megro: having trouble finding anything space related but i can point you at a free manuscript "Pioneers of Soviet Computing" on soviet computers in general. 22:31:55 staykov: alright then, just my opinion 22:31:57 maybe if i like lisp a lot i can see it, i am mostly learning for exersise though 22:32:21 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:31 the only thing i hate about vim is vim script 22:32:34 *jasom* doesn't use a lot of vim plugins so that wasn't a big deal for him 22:32:58 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@140.Red-83-57-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:04 in case anyone is interested, i found this: There's a book in Russian, German Noskin, First computers for space applications ( ,    ), ISBN 978-5-91918-093-7. 22:33:04 The author himself participated in many early projects (mostly in hardware) and according to him analog hardware was in favor for a long time, he mentions that space rendezvous tasks didn't use digital computers until the late 70's. 22:33:32 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:34:01 cool. 22:34:25 thanks again guys, I was just curious, my imagination was running wild, thinking there could be a forgotten, powerful, russian programming language out there... 22:34:52 Megro: they were basically all very 70s, in a bad way. try looking up DSSP 22:36:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:43 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:38:26 jaccarmac [user@nat/google/x-hqfccknoeutmzpzs] has joined #lisp 22:38:28 Hey! 22:38:37 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 22:38:38 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:d9:fc51:4ac0:d4b6] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:39:58 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:00 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Quit: percopal] 22:40:02 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:d9:fc51:4ac0:d4b6] has joined #lisp 22:41:43 -!- jaccarmac [user@nat/google/x-hqfccknoeutmzpzs] has quit [Client Quit] 22:44:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:44:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:58 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:45:46 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 22:47:01 Ogion [~Ogion@66.Red-83-49-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:45 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:49:55 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB32E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:50:17 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:50:48 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:56 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:53:37 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-133-70.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:57 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 22:55:38 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:34 -!- fortitud1 [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:57:53 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 przl [~przlrkt@p5DD14544.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:08 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 23:01:42 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:18 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DD14544.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:06 Ogion_ [~Ogion@187.Red-83-57-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:14 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04:12 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-59-143.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:44 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@66.Red-83-49-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:06:25 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 23:09:28 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-59-143.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:28 -!- francogrex [6d804dd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.128.77.216] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:10:56 heap exhaustion is pretty tiring, ideas how to avoid it other than limit consing to absolute necessity? 23:12:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:12:14 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-207.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:27 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:18:27 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:29 <|3b|> dim: use a bigger heap? 23:19:57 what happens when processing a data set bigger than RAM? 23:20:05 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:20:21 <|3b|> same as any program, swap or OOM killer (or non-linux equivalent) 23:21:01 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 23:21:48 dim: turn the garbage collector back on? :) 23:23:28 hehe 23:23:29 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dccad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:23:39 I'm retaining memory for too long 23:24:22 what I'd like to have is a hint that I should release memory (close current batch) then continue, rather than being signaled when it's too late 23:24:42 it proves quite hard getting to count what's in memory at any given time 23:24:50 maybe I should parse (room) output?! 23:25:48 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dccad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:20 dim: if you have good locality of reference, then a modern OS should do fine just swapping out the unused pages 23:27:03 I'm working with a per-batch model, so I'd be happy to provide another threshold than the number of rows to close a batch 23:27:36 I've been trying to do that by counting lengths of strings I retain in the current batch and forcing gc in between batches, but even then I manage to exhaust memory 23:27:43 I'm still missing something 23:28:09 dim: are you interning any strings? 23:28:09 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:28:14 (I did the gc call after (setf *batch* (make-array ...)) so that the old reference isn't pointed at anymore) 23:28:24 oh yeah I do that 23:28:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:28:32 mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:46 dim: then make a package for each batch, and delete it when you're done 23:29:00 I need to review if I'm interning that much tho 23:29:37 dim: should be easy to check, just count the symbols in the package you are interning to 23:29:39 good idea, will see about that tomorrow 23:29:43 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:29:52 mmm, how do I do that? 23:30:04 do-symbols maybe? 23:30:44 yeah 23:30:57 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:38 (let ((count 0)) (do-symbols (s (find-package :keyword)) (incf count)) count) 23:31:39 (let ((n 0)) (do-symbols (s "PGLOADER.TRANSFORMS" n) (incf n))) is 1027 23:31:41 => 2283 23:32:25 that's not bad then 23:32:28 ok that's not interning 23:32:37 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dccad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:32:38 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:32:48 I don't intern the data, only some meta data 23:33:21 check for leaks in ffi libs too 23:33:29 ok, time to call it a day tho 23:33:34 no ffi anymore ;-) 23:33:49 switched from cl-mysql to qmynd so that I could better manage memory 23:34:07 which works well in that case, and moves the problem around to the writer side, which is cool 23:34:11 but still needs solving 23:34:24 ok, good night and thanks for advices 23:36:07 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 23:38:36 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC7F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:35 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 23:41:44 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:20 Ogion__ [~Ogion@189.Red-83-57-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:45 -!- scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:48:03 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:13 -!- Ogion_ [~Ogion@187.Red-83-57-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:48:19 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-59-143.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-59-143.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:49:37 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.107.105.40] has joined #lisp 23:52:08 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:18 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:54:14 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.107.105.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56:05 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 23:56:44 In CLHS 17.2.1 (Satisfying a Two-Argument Test), is it portable to rely on the order in which O and Zi are passed to the test function? 23:57:44 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp