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00:24:14 k-man: depends on the definition 00:24:42 I've seen people argue that scheme is not a lisp, and I would say that by similar arguments you could argue that clojure is not a lisp 00:24:59 It is a Lisp dialect but NOT "Common Lisp" 00:25:06 fair enough 00:25:12 thanks for the clarification 00:25:56 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@145-7.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:27 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 00:37:19 AntiSpamMeta_ [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:37:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Killed (pratchett.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 00:37:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 00:39:32 feel [~feel@130-147-85-95.dynamic.stcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:02 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50bce.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:06 sigjuice_ [~sigjuice@192.241.139.168] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] 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ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:09 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 01:29:41 -!- lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@55.110.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:29:56 Alfr [~Unknown@g225178164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:33:28 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.254.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:03 -!- rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.168.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:13 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:41:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:58 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 01:44:46 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:34 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 01:47:10 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:19 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 01:47:47 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 01:47:52 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:18 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 01:50:33 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:10 http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/63889767520/the-big-book-of-online-communication-context-by seems eminently useful 01:58:52 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:59:55 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:01:26 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:01:38 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-87.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:01:41 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 02:04:30 -!- 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[~user@2601:9:4180:468:a2b3:ccff:fec6:e525] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:20:49 gko_ [~gko@218-161-19-128.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:40 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 02:22:16 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:35 bhyde: that whole tumblr is wonderful 02:25:21 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:26:26 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:29:14 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.227.19] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.227.19] has quit [Changing host] 02:29:23 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 02:29:25 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:38 Eylusion [~eylusion@107-222-6-86.lightspeed.tpkaks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:02 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:32 Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:36:48 kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 02:36:56 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:37:26 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:39:10 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:39:27 antonv [251171f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.17.113.241] has joined #lisp 02:41:34 eg0 [4cdcc7b1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.220.199.177] has joined #lisp 02:41:56 is anyone here familiar with lispbuilder-sdl? 02:43:04 eg0: yeah 02:44:12 so, is there an effective limit as far as events o? 02:44:14 go* 02:44:30 im building a simple window and interface system from scratch 02:44:45 and so im tracking the mouse to see if its position is within buttons 02:45:04 eg0: I advice checking the SDL docs on that, but I've seen nothing in the Lispbuilder source to suggest that there would be limitations specific to the Lisp wrapper. 02:45:11 but now im dealing with a few dozen events 02:45:23 should i be combining things? 02:45:44 like having one event for buttons and one for clicks, or should each button have its own event handler? 02:46:04 ive not spent much time with an event driven environment, so this is mostly new to me 02:47:18 I've always used one function per event. The function usually does a hash lookup in a table of input->callback. 02:47:54 Seems parsimonious enough to me, but I imagine there could be better patterns. 02:49:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:32 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:50:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:51:30 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:47 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 02:53:02 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 02:53:29 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:52 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 03:00:19 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@198.199.88.224] has left #lisp 03:04:01 -!- guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 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[~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:13 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@71-35-56-196.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:23:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:55 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:22 Hi, what is this third thing in (defun run-program (error-output nil error-output-p) ... ) 06:24:29 what is that error-output-p supposed to be? 06:24:51 sorry (defun run-program (&key (error-output nil 06:24:52 error-output-p)) ... ) 06:25:09 that's a variable that's bound to true if error-output is provided 06:25:14 gendl: (parameter-name default-value was-value-provided) 06:25:19 harish [~harish@122.0.23.226] has joined #lisp 06:25:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:24 so you can distinguish between error-output not being provided and being provided as nil 06:25:30 clhs &key 06:25:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 06:25:46 thank you 06:27:36 i am surprised that you would learn about it just now 06:28:06 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:44 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:29:15 stassats: are you trying to make me feel ashamed of myself? 06:29:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 06:31:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-47.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:43:17 -!- harish [~harish@122.0.23.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:45:00 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:49:24 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:52:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:10 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.5] has joined #lisp 06:53:57 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:54:29 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:58:34 Hi. There is an example of compile time computation in "On Lisp" book: (defmacro avg (&rest args) `(/ (+ ,@args) ,(length args))) But this macro does not compute avarage value completely, addition and division ar not computed. I write another macro that compute resulting number (defmacro avg2 (&rest args) (/ (apply #'+ args) (length args))). And it seems to work well. 06:59:15 Does my version have any drawbacks? It does not use backquote at all. Is it bad? 07:00:26 I there a reason why the example from the book written in that way? 07:00:54 STilda: How did you test your macro? 07:00:55 (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (avg2 x y)) 07:01:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:02:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:03:44 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.176] has joined #lisp 07:04:19 sellout-, mal___: thank you! I see now! I just checked things like (avg2 1 3). Exciting! 07:04:52 STilda: The point of that macro is that you can know the number of items youre averaging (length args) at compile time, so you can pre-calculate it, but the actual args may not be known until run time. 07:05:01 probably, even. 07:06:17 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:19 sellout-: aha, this make things clearer 07:07:02 it is good that I asked. thank you. 07:09:31 Its also something that would work better as a compiler macro, so that the function #'avg could exist at the same time, and you could potentially check (every #'numberp args), and if so, do your avg2 approach. But its a pretty contrived example. 07:11:18 urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-171-239.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:28 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.130.116.227] has joined #lisp 07:12:28 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.130.116.227] has quit [Changing host] 07:12:28 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:12:51 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:02 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.193.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:28 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:13:31 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:14:09 prxq [~mommer@x2f6ac2e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 07:14:49 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-17-71.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:00 jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:15:41 oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.102.150] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.75.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:00 -!- oxum_ is now known as oxum 07:19:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:20:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 07:20:14 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 07:22:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:23:38 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:24:53 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 07:25:29 nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:37 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 07:26:05 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 07:26:33 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:45 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26:51 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:00 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@78.110.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:27:37 sellout-: good, I have to read what compiler macro is. 07:28:55 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@246.101.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:45 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:31:14 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 07:32:25 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 07:32:30 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:35:41 nostoi [~nostoi@245.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:17 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:36:57 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:37:15 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 07:38:03 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:39:05 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:39 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:45:59 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:36 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:53:46 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:55:51 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:17 morning 08:04:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:05:08 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-jjpuvkeaqyxuantn] has joined #lisp 08:10:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:14:53 H4ns: is there a reason to have two releases of flexi-streams in the channel topic? 08:15:05 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: flexi-streams 1.0.10, hunchentoot 1.2.22, SBCL 1.1.14, cl-who 1.1.3 08:15:12 just carelessness, sorry 08:15:46 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:16:30 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-69-252.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:22:18 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-224-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:18 przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:55 strobegen1 [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has joined #lisp 08:22:55 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:28:31 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:29:05 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-18-48.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:17 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-14-42.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:32:04 harish [~harish@122.0.23.226] has joined #lisp 08:36:11 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:39:25 tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 08:40:42 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-224-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:40:46 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@145-7.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:02 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:03 -!- tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:45:53 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.41.68] has joined #lisp 08:47:23 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50:45 -!- harish [~harish@122.0.23.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:50:48 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:51:19 jewel [~jewel@105-236-110-99.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:52:07 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-224-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:08 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 08:55:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:56:24 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-oiihmvbmywpquzgm] has joined #lisp 08:56:25 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-oiihmvbmywpquzgm] has quit [Changing host] 08:56:25 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:56:58 STilda: I like Arthur Lemmens's compiler macro tutorial: http://www.pentaside.org/paper/compilermacro-lemmens/compiler-macros-for-publication.txt 08:58:34 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:47 Vivitron: will read for sure, thank you 09:02:56 It is wrong. 09:03:01 It confuses constantp with literalp. 09:03:32 See https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/C0xd745d3Xc 09:03:39 tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 09:04:37 assuming that literalp implies immutablep. 09:05:52 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:53 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:07:27 otherwise, ok. 09:07:42 przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:16 (progn #1=#(1 2 3) (list (vector-add #1# #1#) (progn (incf (aref #1# 0)) (vector-add #1# #1#)))) --> (#(2 4 6) #(4 4 6))  09:10:29 -!- tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:19 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:12:29 is #1#(1 2 3) a constant? what's your point here, I don't follow 09:12:36 tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 09:13:18 dim: constantp doesn't tell you whether the argument is immutable, but whether (eql (eval arg) (eval arg)). 09:13:55 ogamita: your example is mutating literal data. I'm still digesting the thread you posted, c.l.l used to be so much more interesting:) 09:14:20 At compilation time, #1# contains #(1 2 3); so the second vector-add compiler-macro call should expand to #(2 4 6). 09:14:30 The correct result however, is the one displayed. 09:14:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:50 how can there be a correct answer when you mutate literal data? 09:15:11 Well, from a macro, I could have built the form with a non literal vector. 09:15:43 (defmacro e () (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) `(list (vector-add ,v ,v) (progn (incf (aref ,v 0)) (vector-add ,v ,v))))) 09:17:21 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:17:37 for example, sbcl, which uses compiler-macros with the optimization declarations I have, produces: (#(2 4 6) #(2 4 6)) 09:19:51 Unfortunately, I think there's no cleaner way to do it: we should exclude literal objects from source forms (outside of quote). 09:20:28 But then that compiler macro fails on (vector-add '#(1 2 3) '#(4 5 6)) which is valid form, because it doesn't test for quote: not only literal vectors are constantp. 09:23:27 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@245.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:24:04 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:31:12 ogamita: your macro triggers a compilation error for me regardless of whether I call a vector-add with a compiler-macro defined on it. I think you are still mutating literal data in error. 09:32:16 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 09:32:30 With the macro e, there's no literal data. 09:33:17 ogamita: sbcl 1.1.12 dissagrees 09:33:39 Yes, but it is wrong. 09:34:48 Well, no, it's right, as per the hyperspec glossary definition of literal, ok. 09:36:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:38:21 blacklab` [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:53 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:44:33 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 09:47:00 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 09:47:48 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.43.84] has joined #lisp 09:49:26 vaporatorius [~vaporator@61.Red-83-38-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:57 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.102.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:49:58 -!- oxum_ is now known as oxum 09:50:14 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:cd5a:ff10:e636:52c5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:14 ogamita: the faillure on quote is interesting as well, that seems like it could be a gotchya with a lot of compiler macros (so far as there would ever be a lot of them :}) 09:52:04 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:52:49 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:52 sdemarre [~serge@205.148-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:53:28 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:53:32 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 09:55:54 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:06 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:48 -!- Guest74811 [~iwilcox@87.114.5.212] has quit [Changing host] 10:06:48 Guest74811 [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 10:06:58 -!- Guest74811 is now known as iwilcox 10:09:47 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sixjgddodizngkkc] has joined #lisp 10:11:03 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:11:11 Vivitron: and it's more complex than just quote, check clhs constantp. It can be any form. For example, sbcl detects that v is bound to a literal with the following macro e. Therefore it would be able to tell (constantp 'v) is true. 10:11:12 (defmacro e () (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) `(let ((v ,v)) (list (vector-add ,v ,v) (progn (incf (aref v 0)) (vector-add ,v ,v)))))) 10:11:47 So even if I wrote: (defmacro e () (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) `(let ((v ,v)) (list (vector-add v v) (progn (incf (aref v 0)) (vector-add v v)))))) 10:12:39 as long as the environment is correctly taken into account, sbcl should be able to tell vector-add that the symbol V is a constantp! :-) 10:13:04 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.43.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:13:55 oxum [~oxum@122.164.207.83] has joined #lisp 10:14:10 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:47 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:01 sbcl doesn't go as far for a lexical variable, but it does obviously for a symbol-macro: (defmacro e2 () (let ((v (vector 1 2 3))) 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[~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:41 cbucket [~user@1x-193-157-250-36.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:47:42 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:19 hi, is anybody aware of a unit test framework for CL similar to Pyret's (http://www.pyret.org/) `where' forms? 11:49:01 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:49:36 cbucket: it's trivial to write it: (defmacro where ) 11:52:39 ggherdov [sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vwmpyawduhezrfam] has joined #lisp 11:54:21 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:56:00 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 11:59:01 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9D463.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:41 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 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sleep] 17:14:15 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 17:14:39 Hi, can a common lisp interpreter perform runtime analysis on itself? 17:14:45 Maybe that's a silly question. 17:15:10 Of course it can. 17:15:30 What I'm looking for in particular is a way to implement meta-tracing, where the runtime looks for "hot loops", and inlines frequently calculated values 17:15:33 Just be careful with gödelian knots. 17:15:46 It's perfectly possible. 17:16:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 17:16:18 (So long as a "guard" predicate is satisfied. As soon as the guard predicate is not met, the entire loop is calculated instead.) 17:16:23 mrSpec [~Spec@LLagny-156-35-15-245.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@LLagny-156-35-15-245.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host] 17:16:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:16:33 ogamita: Hah, someone mentioned Godel the other night when I was talking about this in another channel. 17:16:45 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-0-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:55 ogamita: I'm glad it's perfectly possible, but I'm wondering how to theoretically implement something like that 17:17:04 kristof: have a look at partial evaluation. 17:17:07 ogamita: At the moment, there is a lot of research in the realm of tracing JIT compilers 17:17:12 ogamita: Right, but 17:17:15 *ogamita* going to comute now. bbl 17:17:19 aw :( 17:17:24 I was going to ask a poignant question 17:17:34 You can implement such a thing: it may be a large amount of work. 17:18:03 There are tricky things like on-stack replacement that require careful design 17:18:54 ggole: All of the examples I have seen of metatracing are only in JIT compiled languages, with a virtual machine. But I was wondering if Lisp was in a unique position for a unique solution to this because of its homoiconicity and its ability to use the entire language at runtime. 17:20:10 ggole: Reading some papers on metatracing JITs and I keep seeing explicit comments by the author that it would be nice, for instance, to be able to have a distinguished macro-expansion phase, and to be able to have literals for code. Part of me kept thinking "...but lisp does!" 17:20:10 I don't really see how homoiconicity plays a role. 17:20:26 Being able to analyze code at runtime and generate new code based on it? 17:20:47 You can do that for any language. 17:21:06 Hmm. 17:21:09 I guess. 17:21:15 sz0 [~sz@208.72.139.54] has joined #lisp 17:21:16 What's the point of homoiconicity, then? 17:21:25 It gives you macros. 17:21:27 kristof: it makes manipulating code easier 17:21:36 Which is a separate concern, really. 17:21:41 Ok. 17:21:43 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:46 I was complecting the two concerns together. 17:22:02 kristof: write a program that takes in python code, and returns slightly different python code. Do the same for lisp. See which is easier 17:22:08 Usually the representations you find in a compiler are quite far from raw s-expressions, too 17:22:18 Particularly optimising compilers 17:22:28 -!- tatsuhik` [~user@188.165.96.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:31 IIRC python even has an AST representation to make it easier; lisp just says "why have 2 representations for code" 17:22:38 except when it doesn't (see backquote) 17:23:19 jasom: There was a researcher who was complaining about having to use rpython to write interpreters to be analyzed by the pypy toolchain, mostly because of having to do any real metaprogramming in exterior python files, so you ended up with a mix of two similar but distinct languages. 17:23:26 However, none of this prevents Lisp from being a reasonable target for JIT compilation. So if you are interested in that, have at it. 17:23:30 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-16.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:00 ggole: I am very interested in that, but I'm just exploring the possibilities available to me. 17:24:32 ggole: I'm not interested in JIT compilation of lisp, actually. I'm interested in the automatic generation of JIT compilers by semantic analysis of interpreters using partial evaluation and similar tools. 17:24:56 kristof: how is that distinct from a tracing JIT? 17:24:57 And for some reason, I feel like a "toolchain" similar to pypy's might be more flexible if written in a language designed for metaprogramming. 17:25:30 jasom: It's slightly different. As far as I know, pypy is the only real example of a toolchain that implements any JIT compiler for any interpreter. 17:25:41 With only the effort of writing an interpreter. 17:25:41 PyPy seems like a pretty complicated way to do what it is doing, though. 17:25:56 ggole: Why do you say that? 17:26:02 And it is roundly outperformed by simpler, more direct approaches like V8 and Luajit. 17:26:22 Because there are so many layers, and it's taken so long to get it all working. 17:26:47 ggole: Those are handtuned jit compilers which take a lot more effort than writing an interpreter. The real ingenuity, in my opinion, is being able to write JUST an interpreter and having a tracing JIT compiler pop out. 17:26:47 ``Erik_ [~erik@pool-74-103-94-19.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:49 ggole: I would have said pypy was going to fail just 2 years ago. Now I'm not convinced 17:27:17 kristof: if it only gets used for python though, it seems like more effort than just writing a python jit 17:27:32 jasom: Nope! As I've said, it is used for any language you write an interpreter for. 17:27:32 patojo [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:33 Whether that is worth doing would seem to depend on how good a compiler is produced, though. 17:27:36 -!- xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:49 ggole: There is a lot of research in this area. At the very least, it could be fun. 17:27:53 xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:57 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-94-19.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:57 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:06 Fun is a good reason. 17:28:27 ggole: I think the biggest boon right now is for language implementers. Instead of months and months of hard work to produce a usable compiler for their toy language, the turnout is now in weeks. 17:28:32 ggole: Oh! You might not have heard, but 17:29:34 ggole: The pypy guys are working on something called jit layering, as well. It turns out that pypy makes some for some very good semantic analysis, but it doesn't produce entirely efficient x86 code. The .NET platform does not do great semantic analysis (it does none) of dynamic languages, but it has very incredible code emitting. 17:30:00 -!- Kenjin_ [~kenjin@180.189.170.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:00 ggole: If you put one on top of the other, you actually get dynamic code that performs as well as C#. And not with years of research; a few months, maybe. 17:30:54 It's actually an interesting realization of the goal that "hosted dynamic languages" have been trying to achieve; taking advantage of the HUGE amount of research going into these popular (but not-dynamic-friendly) platforms. 17:31:17 Putting a JIT on top of a JIT does not seem like it would produce very efficient code, ever, but it's the complete opposite. 17:32:23 jasom: Anyway, pypy itself, as a JIT compiler, was never truly written. They only wrote an interpreter analysis toolchain, and they wrote an interpreter for python, which was morphed into a JIT compiler. A guy sat down and wrote a JIT compiler for smalltalk in a week. It's really, really fast deployment of languages. 17:32:30 See, if you had a reasonably good code generator, you wouldn't need another (huge) layer. 17:32:39 (Of course, quality code generation is a lot of work.) 17:32:41 ggole: But code generators are hard to write. 17:32:43 Yeah. 17:33:32 of course, the world is going to CISC instead of RISC 17:33:43 I also have to wonder how well "off the shelf" code generators will handle language-specific patterns. 17:35:12 The PyPy guys have tried to use LLVM a few times and failed consistently: I suspect that the cause is that LLVM is a C compiler and simply lacks support for any of constructs you might find in a higher order garbage collected dynamic language. 17:35:46 ggole: That's the ingenuity of the pypy toolchain. Huge efforts like ironpython and jpython always run into the unfortunate semantic mismatch between the underlying virtual machine and the hosted language. Pypy was written to avoid this by separating concerns between the language specification and the code implementation, so that the semantics are analyzed by the toolchain and no semantic-mismatch occurs. 17:35:48 That's the problem with parrot; it was written for perl, and hacked to support other languages, but you'll always get the semantic mismatch. 17:36:16 Well, GHC targets LLVM and drmeister is working on a CL targeting LLVM. 17:36:19 ggole: I have an excellent blog post from someone who was trying to target LLVM and gave up 17:36:21 And that's the strength of V8 and luajit: they were written expressly for the languages they are dedicated too, and do a fabulous job as a result. 17:36:41 Of course they give you no leverage over other languages: that's the tradeoff. 17:36:51 ggole: V8 is a full compiler, not a JIT compiler :) 17:37:14 V8 is a method JIT compiler. It does OSR, all that fun JIT stuff. 17:37:39 Just because it doesn't trace doesn't mean it is not a JIT. 17:38:01 ggole: Anyway, hand-tuned compilers will always be faster than automatically generated ones, but I think the tradeoff between time-spent writing one and performance will eventually fade away, sort of like how assembly written programs will always be faster than compiled ones but the effort is, nowadays, considered silly. 17:38:13 (It has a simple splat compiler instead of an interpreter, yes.) 17:38:18 -!- Loymoev [~loymoev@host-37-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has left #lisp 17:38:19 -!- shridhar is now known as shridhar`afk 17:38:19 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:38:31 ggole: I thought it was simply not a JIT compiler to begin with, but you probably have looked this up 17:38:44 my analysis of the wikipedia article said otherwise but I am probably misreading 17:39:31 Perhaps 20 years in the future, language designers will wonder why we ever bothered with hand-writing our compilers unless we had millions of dollars to support such an effort. 17:39:50 There was a early version of V8 that lacked the optimising compiler, iirc 17:40:26 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:47 Whatever they do, they do it well, because Chromium's js interpreter has always been faster for me than Firefox's 17:40:56 Compiler-compilers have been a dream for decades now. 17:40:56 No benchmarks to back that up :) 17:41:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 17:41:43 It hasn't worked out so far, which isn't to say that it might not yet come to happen. 17:41:49 ggole: Well, we're getting very close (for JIT compilers, that is). 17:42:21 There's some research, yeah 17:42:23 Admittedly, the only really fantastic optimization these jit compilers use is tracing, and the "traced loops" are optimized with the usual methods. 17:42:28 I'm sure that will change 17:42:41 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:43:00 Oracle are taking a shot at it with Graal 17:43:05 ggole: But you must admit that being able to write a dynamic language like python that runs about as fast as c# in most cases is a huge achievement (that was a result of the jit layering I told you about) 17:43:39 I'd say that luajit got there first 17:43:44 But yeah, it is pretty damn cool 17:44:49 ggole: I'm pretty sure luajit is written in assembler, and C 17:44:51 jewel [~jewel@105-236-110-99.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:45:11 ggole: compare that with writing it in (a subset of) python 17:45:16 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:35 The lua *interpreter* is written in assembly 17:45:38 Hopefully, you will be able to say someday that you can just write it in (a subset of) comman lisp :) 17:45:41 *common 17:47:56 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:49:01 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:3846:5a9e:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:55 -!- quasus [~kondratye@193.137.102.254] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:52:47 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:49 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:20 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 17:55:20 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-69-252.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:43 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:56:57 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:58:04 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:27 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 18:00:50 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:02:39 -!- xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:02:56 xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:05 antgreen [~green@out-on-128.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:56 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-206-195.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:08:39 kristof: Lisp can be JITted, though I don't think any current implementation does a lot to effect such a thing. I think SBCL has a rudimentary kind of specialisation at CLOS method call sites, and not much more. But Lisp macros are really talking different language than a JITting impl, because Lisp always results in Lisp, whereas a JIT is concerned with actual machine code that goes fast 18:08:53 mathrick: drmeisters does, or will 18:09:12 Loymoev [~loymoev@host-37-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 SBCL's VOPs might make it easier, but I dunno how accessible they are unless you're already in the guts of the machine code emitter 18:09:21 -!- effy_ [~x@123.122.64.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:38 mathrick: Yeah, perhaps I was sort of confused, myself. I just know that a lot of pypy's optimization, for instance, involves manipulating the IR first, before it emits code. 18:10:02 And "intermediate forms" are always fishy to me in the face of lisp for the same reason that xml is always fishy to me in the face of sexprs 18:10:04 yeah, SBCL basically handles that with compiler macros 18:10:12 but it's not the same as JIT 18:10:23 Right, SBCL is aot 18:10:37 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 18:10:43 I think JIT'd lisp is an unexplored arena waiting to have its fruits harvested 18:10:48 errrrr 18:10:50 Racket does JIT 18:11:02 I don't know how fast Racket is, though. 18:11:18 -!- pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-206-195.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:11:31 it should be reasonably easier to have the high-level IR transforms done with a sexpr representation, but it won't give you a JIT just yet. It will just make the hard part somewhat easier because you avoid inventing one kind of extra syntax 18:12:22 kristof: I've always itched to lift Dylan people's formal type specialiser kernel lifted and fitted into SBCL, but it's a lot of very careful work I don't have the time for 18:12:53 mathrick: Note that what I'm interested in is not actually a JIT compiled common lisp 18:13:02 mathrick: although that does sound like an excellent idea 18:13:29 so what would you like to see? 18:13:42 mathrick: An automatic-JIT-compiler-generator toolchain. 18:14:33 mathrick: Are you familiar with pypy? I rambled too much ^above, so I'll be succinct here: using the pypy framework, one simply writes an interpreter for the language he or she wishes to implement and the toolchain semantically analyzes the interpreter to produce a jit meta-tracing compiler. 18:14:54 meta-tracing is different from explicit tracing because meta-tracing traces the *interpreter*, not the code itself 18:16:04 mathrick: These autogenerated compilers are actually quite performant, although not as performant as hand-tuned JIT compilers. But the real beauty is that... writing an interpreter is so, so little effort compared to writing a JIT compiler (with TRACING!). If you've got a language idea, the deployment time for a GOOD prototype is in the order of weeks, not months or years. 18:16:21 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:48 mathrick: I will not go into this next point, but an even more interesting area of research is JIT layering, such as making pypy emit .NET bytecode and letting .NET emit efficient x86 code. ...You can get performance on the level of C# with this method. For a language like python. 18:16:58 mathrick: thoughts? 18:16:59 kristof: yeah, I have a very high-level and cargo-cultish idea of PyPy 18:17:05 not much actual knowledge though 18:17:43 kristof: in that case, you'd still need a dropdown to low-level restricted dialect 18:18:21 you could probably wing some of the restrictions with a judicious use of macros, but things like invariant types restriction from RPython will still be needed 18:18:22 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:35 so it will still be a restrictive dialect compared to CL 18:18:50 mathrick: No one's defined a statically analyzable subset of CL? 18:19:33 not that I know of, but I haven't done much research in this area 18:20:20 mathrick: We'll see what happens in the future. In the meantime, I have better uses of my time, like hacking together ChanL, cl-async, and cl-cont to implement goroutines in Common Lisp. 18:20:30 If you consider that a good use of time :P 18:20:43 ChanL? 18:20:59 mathrick: sykopomp's channel implementations. Channels are just buffers for interprocess communication. 18:21:04 *channels implementation 18:21:14 I don't know if sykopomp is still here, he used to frequent this channel 18:22:08 mathrick: goroutines are coroutines that communicate via channels. Neat stuff, and an implemenation of Hoare's Communicating Sequential Processes 18:23:43 ah 18:24:04 mathrick: What have you been working on, lately? :) 18:24:35 kristof: neck deep in org-mode and TeX 18:24:41 beach duped me into starting a book 18:24:53 I thought pjb was duped into starting a book 18:25:31 we both were 18:25:37 what on? 18:25:40 unsure if it's the same book 18:25:46 GUI toolkits 18:26:15 mathrick: Say, how much experience do you have with GTK and QT, and how different is a CLIM-esque toolkit from the two? 18:26:21 Besides the level of abtraction you get to work with 18:26:27 I actually already started a lisp book, for French children. But it's stalled. 18:26:53 kristof: have you looked at green-threads? that's based on cl-async and appears to have at least basic channel support (inspired by ChanL, no less) 18:27:31 fortitude: I certainly have, and I'm just cautious, because greentheads are kind of different from goroutines, if only in a superficial way 18:27:49 kristof: here is a JIT lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140432 18:28:27 kristof: you may try it on clisp, with a *macroexpand-hook* 18:28:51 fortitude: Mostly because I'm not sure if greenthreads allow for the same kind of coding style that goroutines do 18:29:01 You could implement a variant that would compile the function only after it has been called a few times. 18:29:07 pjb: Yes, but it doesn't do metatracing. :P 18:29:14 You can do it. 18:29:18 Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has joined #lisp 18:29:22 kristof: you won't be able to get true goroutines anyway (cl-cont can't cross library boundaries) 18:29:30 You can insert any processing on the body of the function. 18:29:51 kristof: I'm pretty sure you can get something pretty close layered on green-threads with the right macros... 18:29:58 kristof: have a look at cl-stepper if you wan to trace things (you can derive it to do meta-tracing at run-time). 18:30:06 pjb: Ah, alright, thank you 18:30:38 mathrick: Say, how much experience do you have with GTK and QT, and how different is a CLIM-esque toolkit from the two? <-- that's exactly why I'm writing it, and before I start working on CLIM. I'm fluent in GTK+ and familiar with Qt, with a solid idea (and distaste :) for the win32 approach 18:31:05 kristof: just to say that you can have quite some fun staying at the lisp level. Then of course, you may want to deal with the gritty details of X86 18:31:06 I've also worked a bit with Swing and touched on MFC 18:31:55 MFC is kinda amazing, it's not strictly speaking *worse* than plain win32 API (simply because win32 API is terrible), but it invents exciting new areas to be horrible in 18:32:01 fortitude: greenthreads actually relies on cl-cont 18:32:26 most of which I've forgotten because they're that stupid 18:32:36 kristof: right, same limitations apply 18:32:41 fortitude: But greenthreads seems much closer to what I wanted than I had previously thought. I'll have to look into it more because I've never quite reconciled the differences between goroutines and greenthreads in my head, even though I think they're slightly different. 18:32:54 kristof: the author of cl-async has some good stuff on the issues of doing this kind of stuff without real continuations 18:32:55 They're just... such close concepts :) 18:33:17 fortitude: I *have* read that, but I couldn't remember where I had read that. Thank you for reminding me that it was cl-async related 18:34:08 pjb: I will look into it, thank you :) Now, to leverage that to create JIT compilers for other languages by semantically analyzing interpreters... 18:34:10 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:00 alezost [~user@128-70-192-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:35:28 mathrick: Ok, that's good. I was worried that maybe (because CLIM was so old), that mainline GUI programming had surpassed it eventually, but I am happy that you first-hand know the difference between popular toolkits and CLIM and can say that CLIM2 (and soon to be 3) is a better way of doing things. 18:35:37 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:38 kristof: speaking of toolchains, have a look at: poplog http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/poplog/freepoplog.html 18:35:49 rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.148] has joined #lisp 18:36:12 kristof: I don't! That's the point :) I write the intro for non-CLIM now and describe them in their own term, then have beach look at the CLIM parts and learn it myself 18:36:27 mathrick: I went from using OWL to MFC and found it a huge step backwards 18:36:28 beach knows CLIM very well, I know non-CLIM well 18:36:37 jasom: OWL? 18:36:43 mathrick: Object Windows Library 18:36:49 pjb: "An incremental compiler". Interesting 18:36:52 mathrick: Borland's GUI toolkit 18:36:56 isn't that that silly Borland library? 18:36:57 yeah 18:37:01 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 18:37:05 MFC is not well-liked by anyone I think 18:37:08 It was my first gui toolkit I used 18:37:19 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:20 Borland Turbo C++ 18:37:27 there are people who hate MFC and don't use it, and people who hate MFC and use it 18:37:39 (and also people who don't know about MFC and are the happiest) 18:37:49 I use LTK for gui's theese days 18:37:57 mathrick: Ah, well, I look forward to some chapters in the future 18:40:03 -!- antgreen [~green@out-on-128.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:40:26 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:41:27 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 18:44:27 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 18:46:02 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 18:46:20 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:25 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 18:47:39 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:10 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:49:28 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:51:12 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:21 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:53:26 Uh, I get a "illegal function call" error when I do this. ((if t #'+ #'-) 3 3) Is there a way to get similar behavior? 18:53:57 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:53:57 Petit_Dejeuner: (funcall (if t #'+ #'-) 3 3) 18:53:58 use funcall 18:54:05 <- slow 18:54:15 slow? 18:54:19 quasus [~stanislav@bl21-85-228.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 also, thanks 18:54:54 fortitude responded just as i was hitting enter 18:55:03 funcall is not slow ;) 18:55:28 oh good 18:55:41 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl21-85-228.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: quasus] 18:56:02 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:04 quasus [~stanislav@2.82.85.228] has joined #lisp 18:56:07 tali713 [~tali713@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 -!- quasus [~stanislav@2.82.85.228] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:20 quasus [~stanislav@2.82.85.228] has joined #lisp 19:02:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-110-99.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:03:55 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:09 Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 Alfr [~Unknown@f053071032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:18 syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 WARNING WARNING WARNING, WARNING 19:07:23 WARNING WARNING WARNING, WARNING WARNING 19:07:23 YOU MAY BE WATCHED 19:07:23 YOU MAY BE WATCHED 19:07:23 YOU MAY BE WATCHED 19:07:23 -!- syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:07:34 syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has joined #lisp 19:07:36 fffff hhhhhh ffffff hhhhhhh 19:07:40 -!- syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:07:43 lol 19:07:51 wth who invited vader ? 19:07:51 syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has joined #lisp 19:07:53 lol 19:08:05 -!- syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:08:16 syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 -!- syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:08:37 syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has joined #lisp 19:08:53 -!- syfhvbgos7 [~esucg0aq4@197.123.14.69] has left #lisp 19:09:14 Someone is trying to stop him from getting the truth out. 19:10:10 Must be Edward Snowden again 19:10:37 ^ 19:10:56 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:25 akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has joined #lisp 19:13:51 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-066-179.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:45 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:13 hi, how do you deploy web apps? do you export image or put all sources on the server like in dev env? 19:16:27 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 19:16:48 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 puchacz: it's somewhat up to you 19:17:23 whole image seems more hassle free 19:17:30 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:17:31 one file to upload on each upgrade 19:17:39 i was just saying yesterday i haven't seen a lot of "easy deployment" reference material for CL, but .. an image would work 19:17:54 but I have no experience so maybe 'there be dragons' 19:18:00 there are some minor caveats, but definitely doable 19:18:31 jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-23.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:18:46 puchacz: i think you only really have to make sure it runs your "start-everything" function instead of a repl .. no threads in images, etc 19:18:48 image in sbcl is expected to work 100% where sources would, it is just normal, supported way of creating an app, isn't it? 19:18:58 also you likely want to disable ldb and the debugger 19:19:16 any tutorial on the web...? 19:19:33 not sure, but you may look at some of the buildapp utilities iirc 19:19:41 ok 19:19:48 you can just look at SBCL's documentation for how to make an image 19:19:58 see also buildapp 19:20:03 will do 19:20:03 it should be reasonably self-explanatory and any issues you will run into right away i think 19:20:04 thx 19:20:07 sorry, ldb - what's that? 19:20:14 low level debugger 19:20:15 quasus: the low-level debugger 19:20:21 which I use all the time for stand alone utilities. 19:20:33 oGMo: thanks 19:20:42 you likely do not want your headless server crashing to a prompt somewhere 19:21:12 -!- sz0 [~sz@208.72.139.54] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 19:21:35 when run with compress image the results are even modem friendly. :) 19:21:48 http://xach.livejournal.com/295584.html# 19:22:07 *Fade* thanks pkhuong 19:22:14 Hello. I'd like to ask for a clarification on what the CLHS means by ``The slot-name argument is a symbol that is syntactically valid for use as a variable name.'' on its defclass page. In particular, would it be an error to use a symbol whose value cell has previously been bound using defconstant? If so, why? 19:22:37 speaking of deployment, is there a reasonable/common way to connect to a debugger over swank? 19:22:39 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 19:22:40 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-148-103-bcast.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:22:55 define "to a debugger" 19:23:15 that's sort of the problem, I suppose 19:23:18 you can connect slime to a lisp running swank with (slime-connect ...) 19:23:19 nug700_ [~nug700@71-35-69-252.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:56 I'm thinking of a server that doesn't have a console of it's own 19:24:06 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-69-252.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:24:17 if it hits an unhandled condition, can you then connect over slime to investigate and handle it? 19:24:51 you could, but note swank is not secure 19:25:13 i'm not sure how connecting works after an error 19:25:18 right, but you could handle that with port forwarding over ssh or similar, depending on your situation 19:25:27 yeah 19:25:49 I tried to set up a *debugger-hook* that started a swank server and ran invoke-debugger on connection, but it was very fragile and never really worked properly 19:26:12 er 19:26:24 swank:debug-in-emacs rather 19:28:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-23.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:26 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 19:34:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:34:31 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:35:22 przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:42:50 jewel [~jewel@105-236-110-99.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 Anyone? :) 19:44:57 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:31 Alfr: I'm no expert, but it would seem to me that it is valid 19:46:42 since a constant symbol is indeed "syntactically valid" as a variable name 19:47:02 i.e. (let ((+my-constant+ 4)) ...) is legal, if bad form 19:47:11 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:24 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 19:48:31 it is actually not legal. 19:49:10 because it's rebinding the value of the constant? 19:49:42 "The consequences are undefined if an attempt is made to assign a value to, or create a binding for a constant variable, except that a `compatible' redefinition of a constant variable using defconstant is permitted" 19:49:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-110-99.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:49:48 you can try (let ((pi 3)) ...) or something. 19:50:10 but that assumes that you did a (defconstant +my-constant+ ..) beforehand 19:50:30 I'm saying you can use '+my-constant+ as a legal variable name, syntactically speaking 19:50:35 well, yes. 19:50:51 but that's not what alfr asked about. 19:51:27 does using a constant-variable as a slot name create a binding for that symbol? 19:53:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:54:42 Actually I'm asking when it is syntactically valid symbol name, since that's what that whole discussion is about; whether sbcl should not flag it, even if stylistically bad, as an error. 19:55:09 it's clearly not totally clear 19:55:28 because as you say "syntactically valid" appears to be meaningless 19:55:42 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:55:53 Wukix [~user@173-228-55-74.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:11 as far as I can tell, the intent was that users shouldn't define slot names with the same name as a constant 19:56:22 would you like to argue for a different intent? 19:56:51 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:57:28 Actually, I'm asking when is ``syntactically valid variable name'' for a symbol not satisfied, since then (and only then -- in my opinion) it would be an error to use it as an slot-name in a defclass form, according to spec. 19:57:46 but you will not find that defined formally anywhere 19:57:57 so, I ask again, what intent would you like to ascribe to that phrase? 19:58:27 fortitude: no 19:59:14 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:59:48 My interpretation would be, that, since the only other variant of a symbol, besides being a variable, is being a symbol macro (CLHS 3.1.2.1.1), that it is not interpreted as such. 20:00:51 So that the symbol provided should be taken to refer to a slot in the class defined. 20:01:00 As far as I undestand it, a slot name is a symbol, but neither a variable nor a symbol macro. 20:01:21 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:04:42 \reviewer{Barmar: All symbols are valid variable names. Perhaps this means 20:04:42 to preclude the use of named constants? We have a terminology 20:04:44 problem to solve.}%!!! 20:05:09 it's nice to know that this has never been clear 20:05:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:23 Damn. 20:05:33 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:53 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57923DAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:06:20 Good to know that. :) 20:07:05 Pity that there is no new spec in the works. :/ 20:07:46 if this isn't already described, you could add it to cliki's Proposed%20Ansi 20:08:04 how much is it costing you not to be able to name slots with constant symbol names? 20:09:17 Not much, but it clearly is inconvenient to think whether some symbol is constant. 20:09:18 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 20:09:27 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:09:59 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.59.58.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:12 Besides the other way round it works fine, i.e. first defning the class an then the constant. 20:10:30 until you need to redefine the class 20:10:44 Guess so. 20:11:12 rainoxide [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:11:35 paul0 [~paul0@189.115.56.217] has joined #lisp 20:12:53 I must admit, that I primarily use clisp for testing and couldn't get my head around why sbcl would bail on a slot named pi; since i'm experimenting to implement some numerical algorithms. 20:13:35 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-066-179.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:23 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-qesusuwrhxaqusyf] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 Alfr: You could shadow cl:pi in your package 20:15:17 or just use  :) 20:15:54 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:59 jasom, I already thought about that so time ago, for the reason that I can't redefine standard functions. But decided against it, so that i wouldn't have to prefix every thing with cl:. *g* 20:17:36 you would only have to prefix the shadowed symbols 20:17:52 Krystof, nice idea. But do most implementations support unicode? 20:18:00 yes 20:18:07 sbcl does, certainly, and clisp probably does too 20:18:46 Bike, i thought about +, *, / ... 20:19:35 if you're redefining that much math it might not be a bad idea to shadow all of those anyways 20:19:47 and replacing them with generic functions, but in the end i have to use those operations over the reals / C. 20:20:39 yeah, but if you're just calling them from your functions making that explicit might not be a bad idea. 20:21:38 Bike, in that case I settled for ring/field-``op''. 20:22:39 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:23:52 And now I think that makes the code i've written clearer, albeit somewhat more verbose (not that important). *g* 20:25:18 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:26:19 And regarding an entry on cliki/proposed ansi, I don't think that my english is adequat to write that up. 20:26:31 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9D463.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:56 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:09 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:37:50 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:39:49 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:41:04 -!- rainoxide [~l@84.233.246.170] has quit [] 20:41:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:20 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@145-7.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:37 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 20:47:03 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:31 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:51:09 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:45 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 20:56:11 Alfr: interesting question. The reason must be because of with-slots. SInce with-slots lets you use the slot-name as a variable, if a slot-name was defined as a constant, it couldn't be used in with-slots. 20:57:37 cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:44 pjb, with-slots is defined in terms of symbol-macrolet and that is defined to error out in such a case. 20:59:04 fortitude: syntactically doesn't mean lexically. +x+ is a lexical convention ;-) 20:59:18 Alfr: yes. 21:00:53 Notice that there are a lot of constants which don't follow the +x+ convention, not in CL! All the constants in the KEYWORD package! :-) 21:01:15 Try: (in-package :keyword) RET hello RET world RET 21:01:54 But I for my part settle for not using it, since i can't convince the sbcl developers to not treat it as error/undefined behaviour, because of then there might be a vaccous statement in the spec. 21:03:50 Syntactically means following the rules of the language. CL:PI is not a variable name, since it's the name of a constant. CL:SIN can be used to name a variable. KEYWORD:SIN cannot. MY-PACKAGE:MY-SYMBOL can, unless it's defined as a constant. 21:04:57 Krystof: so not all symbol are valid variable names. keywords (are constants) and symbols declared constant are not valid variable names, since they're constant names. 21:05:28 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-192-95.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:06:13 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.149.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:06:43 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:59 cflat [~cflat@67.239.201.85] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 pjb: that's one possible interpretation. Another is to note that there are plenty of references sprinkled through the CLHS to "constant variables" 21:07:33 -!- cflat [~cflat@67.239.201.85] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:40 yes. there are the variable variables and the constant variables. 21:07:50 Further, constants aren't and variables won't, so 21:08:19 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 21:11:40 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:44 -!- cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:45 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:08 doesthiswork [81656ad8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.101.106.216] has joined #lisp 21:15:07 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 21:15:59 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:07 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:14 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 21:24:45 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 21:25:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:05 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:15 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:30:48 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:55 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:57 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.187.217] has joined #lisp 21:35:42 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 21:36:36 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:42 I am surprised (but happy) to find cl-monad-macros in Quicklisp. 21:44:26 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has joined #lisp 21:49:21 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:57:18 fenton [~fenton@S0106001839ecd155.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:23 -!- doesthiswork [81656ad8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.101.106.216] has left #lisp 22:00:19 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6ac2e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:57 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-qesusuwrhxaqusyf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:31 -!- patojo [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:08 ASau` [~user@p54AFF529.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:41 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D17B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:13:05 -!- fenton [~fenton@S0106001839ecd155.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:13:41 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 22:25:47 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:29 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.105.182] has joined #lisp 22:27:47 boogie [~boogie@wsip-24-249-205-41.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 leoc [~leoc.git@p5480AB61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:38 xotedend_ [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:05 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 22:33:05 -!- xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:33:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:34:56 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 22:35:50 in case it's useful to anybody, I put together a few utility functions for doing remote debugging over Swank: https://github.com/mtstickney/remote-debug 22:36:03 comments or suggestions welcome, though I'm heading home soon 22:38:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.105.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:01 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:29 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.28.185] has joined #lisp 22:46:39 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.105.182] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.28.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:52:56 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:9de9:499e:f05b:b679] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:03 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:54:36 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:45 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5480AB61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] 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