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[Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:17:53 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:34 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:19:30 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 02:21:59 oGMo [~rpav@mephle.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:02 gko_ [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:02 Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-65-144.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:30 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 02:23:11 Does lisp handle OS notions of a newline internally? What I mean is does #\Newline's definition change with the OS? 02:23:17 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:23:43 Porting my software to Windows... 02:23:48 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:24:09 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 02:24:28 Ryan_Burnside, use #\Linefeed or sth :) 02:24:41 doze handles LF natively unless it's notepad.exe or sth 02:24:52 or a textinput box 02:26:55 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:59 Ok thanks! I'm actually working on a program that does multiple comparisons sorting and elemination of list elements. It uses LTK textbox objects and denotes the items inside with the #\Newline character. Had to be sure. 02:27:52 Lacked to tool to deal with lists of text at work so naturally CL was the perfect solution to write list editing software with. 02:28:15 i doubt ltk is as braindead as win32 common controls 02:28:30 so it has a chance of working properly, even if you use linefeeds explicitly 02:29:02 It seemed to be doing ok in my limited tests. Just had to be sure I wasn't insidering extra characters in when modifying the lists. 02:29:08 wonder if mesa will work with llvm 3.5 02:29:09 *inserting 02:29:34 why bother with linefeeds? serialize them binary 02:29:40 with hu.dwim.serializer 02:29:46 Project is currently open sores if anyone wants it. Still a work in progress but all functions are there. 02:29:54 michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.47.15] has joined #lisp 02:30:08 a DAG editing widget? 02:30:13 cool 02:30:27 though doing my gui with c++11 and qt5 02:30:33 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:30:49 Sorry what does DAG mean? 02:30:55 directed acyclic graph 02:31:02 like git revisions, etc 02:31:37 following the bitkeeper fiasco 02:31:39 Ah, I see. This is simply to compare lists, remove all elements matching a regex, sort lists etc. 02:32:01 eh 02:32:08 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.47.15] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:32:21 We work with a lot of long lists of file names and have no good way to sort them and compare them. 02:32:41 Nobody uses normal text editors at work. Emacs fan here. 02:33:33 They are "Application Developers" who never write a line of code. They usee something awful called "Tibco BusinessWorks" which is an abstraction layer over Java that creates programs with data diagrams. It is really naaasty. 02:33:59 Don't care for my job... 02:34:36 michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.47.15] has joined #lisp 02:36:56 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:39 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:37 https://github.com/RyanBurnside/List-Monger if anyone likes. :) 02:38:44 Still new to making packages. 02:38:58 Requires cl-ppcre and ltk 02:40:10 list mongerer! list mongerer! 02:40:18 :) 02:40:26 cool 02:41:16 Ryan_Burnside: How can someone call himself an application developer if he never writes any code? 02:41:41 kristof, some people call markup code 02:41:42 :) 02:42:22 sigh 02:42:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:42:31 kristof, but code is data 02:42:47 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:00 kristof, I thought the same thing. The company doesn't want to hire programmers so they use very high level off the shelf tools that take the programming out of making applications. 02:44:09 It is very depressing for somebody like myself who loves programming. 02:44:31 Ryan_Burnside, actually, constraining the expressibility has some uses 02:44:47 also, taking code-is-data to an extreme, but in a hacker way, woulda been great 02:44:50 Programming in TIBCO is essentially connecting nodes with lines. Each node does something and the lines that connect them control program flow. 02:45:03 Ryan_Burnside, is it structured control flow, or gotos? 02:45:25 I'll get you a picture. It will explain it better. 02:45:28 no! 02:45:29 :) 02:45:35 i've already got a migraine 02:45:49 Not sure what goes on under the hood with TIBCO. It is very closed source and leaves no control to the "programmer". 02:46:06 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 02:46:14 Ryan_Burnside, business-enterprise quiche-eating... 02:46:15 :) 02:46:23 http://i.stack.imgur.com/s7GtM.gif 02:46:24 Ryan_Burnside: That's really awesome in theory 02:46:34 Avert your eyes... 02:46:34 hi kristof 02:46:47 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:55 Ryan_Burnside: Considering you're an actual programmer that probably has to touch-up the code base, you can probably attest that it is not nice in practice. 02:46:59 sthalik: Hello 02:47:38 Correct, it would have been better to simply use a language people know rather than this undocumented harlott of a tool. 02:47:52 Ryan_Burnside, worse is better 02:49:48 I don't think that is what it means 02:50:28 sthalik: That's an oft misused phrase. You just misused it. 02:50:31 yeah, probably. still, optimizing the wrong thing 02:50:54 optimize away the management, or this whole pitiful company :) 02:51:02 Lol 02:51:04 Yes. 02:51:08 gotta shake the tree recursively 02:51:10 or iteratively 02:51:25 Ryan_Burnside: wow, that's really cool 02:51:31 I believe the wrong people are choosing tools. Like any CIO really knows anything about developing software. 02:51:37 Ryan_Burnside: I know you hate it and I probably would too, but the theory of that. Think about it. 02:51:43 i'm a CKO, chief kitten occifer 02:52:02 pesky hippies, lisping away 02:52:23 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: hunchentoot 1.2.22, SBCL 1.1.14, cl-who 1.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.8 02:52:43 is there a CL that works without marking on a pax kernel? 02:52:52 Honestly anymore they consider C++ and C programmers worthless. WHich is really odd. 02:53:11 -!- revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:53:14 It's all C# and Java now... 02:53:28 ...I'm not going to express how much I like C# here 02:53:31 won't do it! 02:53:31 Ryan_Burnside, at least F# ain't htat bad 02:53:37 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 02:53:40 except for the broken type system 02:53:47 non-extensible with no metaprogramming facilities 02:53:49 which ain't worth spit. 02:54:03 kristof, F# has nice sum types, unlike cl 02:54:43 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:45 sthalik: CL is not a predominantly type based programming language. You know this, don't act like you don't 02:55:04 I'm just one of those open sorce advocates and try to avoid languages associated mostly with Windows. 02:55:12 kristof, yes, and that's cl's flaw imo, not just "differnt" 02:55:31 Ryan_Burnside, that's why i'm writing my type system in CL, not F# :) 02:55:41 already tried in F#, and got into type alias stack blowup bug 02:55:52 dsyme fixed it, then it got into release half a year later 02:55:53 go figure... 02:56:13 Ryan_Burnside: That's not a good philosophy to have. Some really great stuff comes out of Microsoft Research. Who employs Simon Peyton Jones, for example? :) 02:56:23 Anyway. This is #lisp. 02:56:40 this is england 02:56:52 which reminds me 02:57:23 genericus [~user@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:25 this is terror and pity 02:59:04 We need CL on Android dammit! 02:59:05 ;) 03:00:09 what's the biggie? 03:00:11 won't clisp work? 03:00:28 or ecl 03:00:33 might try crossing it 03:01:14 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:01:17 Ryan_Bur` [~user@63-153-65-148.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:14 hmm. 03:02:18 try this: 03:02:40 https://github.com/pasky/pachi/blob/master/ANDROID.txt 03:02:52 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:03:39 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:04:00 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 03:04:08 Oh I don't actually own a tablet or smart phone. I was just saying we need more than just Java. 03:04:23 -!- Ryan_Bur` is now known as Ryan_Burnside` 03:04:27 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-65-144.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:05:07 Ryan_Burnside`, actually ndk works 03:05:13 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:42 let's see if possible to cross arm-linux-androideabi 03:05:53 iron serenity 03:06:08 revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has joined #lisp 03:07:05 lispbuilder is impressive 03:07:49 -!- Ryan_Burnside` is now known as Ryan_Burnside 03:08:00 sdl? 03:08:56 Wait wait wait! I can do OpenGL fancies with Lisp? (setf mind "blown") 03:09:22 why not? 03:09:24 it's just c ffi 03:09:29 is it sdl2? 03:09:33 sadly no 03:09:35 hehe 03:09:37 cl-opengl is fine too? 03:09:43 haven't tried it 03:09:46 huh 03:10:00 I think I finally got my head around cl's "ecosystem" that I can make things now. 03:10:07 I didn't think there many live options for actually putting stuff on the screen except for some aging GUI libs. 03:10:54 Also I was under the impression that the ffi was a bit cumbersome to use. 03:11:03 trying this now: 1025 build % ../configure CC='arm-linux-androideabi-gcc -march=armv7-a -isysroot/opt/android-ndk/platforms/android-16/arch-arm -B/opt/android-ndk/platforms/android-16/arch-arm/usr/lib/' --host=arm-linux-androideabi --prefix=/vendor/lisp 03:11:07 For common lisp? 03:11:17 I've only heard good things about it, but I've never use it. 03:11:36 cffi is fun 03:11:42 also sb-alien? 03:11:49 only used cffi though 03:12:00 Good for the guy who made it! 03:12:15 sthalik, does cffi handle recursive c structs (mutally and directly)? 03:12:21 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 03:12:57 of course 03:13:03 they'rej ust pointers 03:13:34 Hmm, maybe I'm an idiot then. I could only get it to work in racket by abusing *void. Don't hang me. 03:13:50 Racket could be that bad, but it seems unlikely. 03:13:57 stupid libsigsegv trash 03:14:12 it has no androideabi in cofngi.sub 03:14:23 android the phone? 03:14:28 yes 03:14:56 no teargas, no baton charge 03:15:11 nothing autoreconf -fiv won't fix 03:15:26 thanks for giving me the idea of trying to cross android, guys 03:15:33 I doubt you want to change languages, but if you're interested, there's a mobile development thing using gambit called lambda-native. 03:15:34 can send abi16 binaries, if it succeeds 03:15:57 I've been meaning to mess with it, but I have nothing to test it on. 03:16:03 there's an emulator 03:16:21 Is it any good? 03:16:40 dunno, never used it 03:16:43 testing on phone directly 03:16:43 I had heard they were bad. I don't do a lot of mobile dev. 03:17:18 neither do i 03:17:21 mostly crossing stuff 03:17:30 methadone-kitty 03:18:03 of course, had to misspell --with-libsigsegv-prefix, re-configuring, which takes ages 03:18:51 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 03:19:28 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 03:20:36 I wonder if it would be possible to make some sort of Symbolics emulator? Wonder if the documentation for the system is even out there. 03:20:39 oh, it won't work anyway 03:20:49 trying ac_cv_libsigsegv now... what a pain 03:20:58 Ryan_Burnside, there's already pirated image of genera 03:21:10 that works, actually 03:21:27 Ryan_Burnside: There is one out there 03:21:59 Neat, might be cool to port to Raspberry Pi... 03:22:02 Ryan_Burnside: The existing Symbolics company sells something that runs on... can't remember which emulator. It's the official thing. 03:22:17 Unfortunately, it's proprietary and you wouldn't legally be able to get your hands on it. 03:24:02 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@162.243.235.129] has joined #lisp 03:24:15 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:41 well, there was drama when it leaked 03:24:58 of course, stalwart defenders of copyright law were annoyed at referring to its existence, on the channel 03:26:14 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 03:28:31 -!- rk[bike] is now known as rk[zzz] 03:28:37 You mean people who respect contracts? 03:28:52 That is on par with people thinking that leaks of IBM's AS/400 OS is actually a problem. 03:29:14 kristof, but i never signed any wrt symbolics software, so why care? 03:30:27 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 03:30:38 It's not a problem, but polite people should still be respectful of whatever copyright someone else holds, even if it's strangling their product to death and is harmful anyway. 03:31:09 No use discussing this, anyway. 03:32:47 yow, after a few minor changes, the clisp build is continuing 03:34:06 it barfed out later, but well... 03:35:08 lisp.run: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, EABI5 version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped 03:35:16 make: *** No rule to make target `interpreted.mem', needed by `all'. Stop. 03:35:24 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:38 "2.49 (2010-07-07) (built 2013-12-09 04:33:54)" 03:37:41 ph34r :) 03:37:49 but since this is cross-build... 03:38:02 Would anyone mind compiling my list tool for Windows 7? I don't have a copy of the OS to compile with. If not that's fine. 03:38:16 compiling? 03:38:24 you can get mingw-w64 03:38:31 and test with wine 03:38:51 Might have to look into that. 03:39:31 -!- genericus [~user@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:40:18 any CLISP or ECL hackers? 03:41:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:09 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:44:00 ok, ecl *will* work, provided it builds on native 03:44:13 <3 03:47:16 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:47:21 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-65-148.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:48:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:53:07 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-260-220.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:53:59 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 03:54:14 -!- pjb [~t@90.24.130.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:52 pjb`, are you familiar with crossing clisp to arm-linux-androideabi? 03:56:48 I wouldn't know for certain but that sounds like a nontrivial task 03:56:53 if not impossible 03:56:58 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.9.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:57:03 sthalik: If you have the cash for it, MUCL is a thing 03:57:16 *MOCL 03:57:21 kristof, ideologically opposed :) 03:57:29 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.9.189] has joined #lisp 03:57:45 ah, free software guy 03:59:03 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:59:05 sthalik: Oh, aren't you still working on a language... written in common lisp? 03:59:06 not really 03:59:10 kristof, i am 03:59:16 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 03:59:31 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:03 sthalik: I don't know if you would know, but would a JIT bytecode compiler produce faster code (after warmup, of course) than something like SBCL, given the dynamic nature of lisp code? 04:00:31 I've read in several places that you simply have to have a JIT compiler to really effectively optimize dynamically typed languages 04:01:22 kristof, but sbcl uses jit 04:01:38 .... 04:02:41 also sbcl's inference's very smart 04:02:44 unlike, say, python 04:02:51 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:03:36 right, but 04:03:41 I thought sbcl compiles to native code 04:03:43 dpeendency hell here, with gmp bundled being broken 04:03:48 kristof, but jit = hative 04:03:49 native 04:03:54 ... 04:03:55 jit = bytecode 04:04:07 the only bytecode compiler for lisp that I know of that uses JIT is clisp + gnu lightning 04:04:33 nonsense 04:04:39 "In computing, just-in-time compilation (JIT), also known as dynamic translation, is a method to improve the runtime performance of computer programs based on byte code (virtual machine code)." 04:04:39 jit = native, bytecode = a case of interpreter 04:04:43 Straight from wikipedia. 04:04:48 nonsense, again 04:04:56 Well, the bytecode gets compiled eventually, which is native code, but 04:04:59 but? 04:05:03 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:05:03 sbcl uses its own IR 04:05:14 I thought it outputs machine code 04:05:22 no, a fasl code is ir, isn't it? 04:05:24 *fasl file 04:05:51 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:07:19 *kristof* ponders everything he thought he knew 04:07:42 lisp is inherently different in its compilation model, compared to most algol-derived languages, huh? 04:07:52 kristof, native = machine code 04:07:55 kristof, nonsesne 04:07:58 syntax has nothing to do 04:08:04 lisp is different from *static* langs 04:08:15 but similar to, say, smalltalk, which is /more/ algol-derived anyway 04:08:18 or ruby, even 04:08:31 sthalik: native != jit 04:08:41 yes, that is what I thought, antonv 04:08:43 I am confused 04:08:47 antonv: help clear this confusion? 04:09:23 jit is when native code is generated from intermediate code during run-time 04:09:30 for example, when function is called first time 04:09:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:10:13 Ok, that's what I thought 04:10:22 sthalik: so, you are cross compiling CLISP to a phone? 04:10:25 Typically bytecode although it can be in some other IF, yeah? 04:10:36 antonv, yes 04:10:39 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 04:10:39 antonv: So what is SBCL's model? Does it output machine code? 04:11:35 kristof: I think SBCL is not jit, just tranditional native code compiler 04:11:40 sthalik: what phone? 04:12:22 sthalik: ah, I see, android 04:12:23 antonv, galaxy i8260 04:13:34 sthalik: I once cross-compiled ECL for an embedded linux device 04:13:50 antonv, that's what i'm doing 04:13:56 but boehm gc patching atm 04:14:07 running w/o gc on android woulda been pain 04:14:26 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:49 sthalik: I patched something too, but don't remember exactly 04:14:54 was some years ago 04:16:10 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17:09 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:35 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 04:18:02 stupid thing using -lpthread :) 04:19:12 sthalik: I have re-read mailing lists, my fixes were commited, probably you have some other problems 04:19:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 04:19:44 antonv, yeah 04:19:45 sthalik: other people tried to use ECL on phone too 04:19:49 too bad the maintainer is awol 04:20:06 sthalik: for example some patches here: https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android 04:20:38 thanks 04:23:06 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:24:28 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:25:36 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:58 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:11 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:55 <|3b|> sbcl is not JIT, it is an AOT compiler that happens to have (and use) the AOT compiler at runtime 04:38:04 <|3b|> tracing JITs can optimize things that probably wouldn't get optimized by sbcl, for example specializing code paths for specific types that can't be determined statically 04:38:12 You can consider it an incremental AOT compiler. 04:38:43 yeah, and block compilation :) 04:38:45 You'd need to tie sbcl's compiler into the execution mechanism to get JIT. 04:39:08 Running a little profiler in parallel might kind of qualify. 04:39:21 funny's pypy 04:39:34 coverage-based specialization jit 04:40:04 <|3b|> though i think i've seen some discussion about having sbcl use an interpreter and optionally compile interpreted functions, which might count as JIT if it got implemented 04:40:28 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 04:40:39 <|3b|> though i think that was only for special cases, like when internals tried to compile things while the compiler was already running or something like that 04:41:09 but doesn't sbcl have eval interpreter? 04:41:16 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 <|3b|> sbcl has one or more interpreters 04:41:47 I think eval just compiles 04:41:55 <|3b|> eval compiles by default in sbcl 04:42:02 <|3b|> there is a flag to make itinterpret directly 04:42:36 <|3b|> i think one of the GSOC projects was a better interpreter, not sure if that one was chosen or finished though 04:43:01 Any ideas on any CL trying to use LLVM? 04:43:10 hm 04:43:25 vowyer: you mean like mocl? 04:43:46 DataLinkDroid: I know mocl exists, but I think it compiles to C first 04:43:58 <|3b|> people have experimented with sbcl + llvm, but didn't get far as far as i know 04:44:24 What I mean is to produce IR for LLVM to do the final native generation 04:44:45 <|3b|> someone who visits #lisp is working on a new lisp with llvm backend (drmeister or something like that?) 04:45:27 Working with ECLS, iirc. 04:45:28 *drmeister* blinks 04:45:34 Hello. 04:45:53 ah yes, drmeister is who i was thinking of :) 04:46:03 :q 04:46:09 *|3b|* 's nick completion must have failed, didn't see you were still on :) 04:46:12 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:46:19 Doesn't LLVM support some kind of JITting? I read a couple years ago that was the intention 04:46:33 It's all about JITting. 04:46:46 Or mostly about JITting. 04:48:22 *drmeister* is reading the backlog 04:48:41 Ah - howdy, yes - I have a Common Lisp that generates LLVM-IR and JITs it to native code. 04:51:38 drmeister: which CL is that? 04:52:24 My own C++ core with ECL Common Lisp source code. 04:52:29 With a new compiler. 04:52:43 drmeister: what GC are you using? 04:53:10 It's not fully up and running yet but it will be the Ravenbrook Memory Pool System. 04:54:20 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:23 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 04:57:52 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:59:01 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 05:00:34 |3b|: Do you think it would have better performance in general? 05:00:37 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:41 Theoretically. :) 05:00:56 <|3b|> kristof: a tracing JIT? hard to say 05:01:09 |3b|: I was reading a paper on it that makes a strong case. 05:01:27 |3b|: And it wouldn't be EXTREMELY hard to write a JIT compiler using RPython 05:01:28 <|3b|> you can do some of the same optimizations by hand, and AOT gives more predictable performance 05:01:55 I disagree. 05:01:56 <|3b|> and SBCL does lots of fairly expensive analyses that might be harder to do in a JIT 05:01:57 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:02:08 Well, you *can* do a lot of things by hand but that's always a tricky thing. 05:02:43 <|3b|> but a JIT with the same amount of developer time as sbcl's compiler would probably be competitive 05:03:05 *|3b|* 's point is probably mostly that "theoretically" doesn't say much 05:03:26 <|3b|> you could theoretically add a whole-program optimizer to sbcl, and let it run for weeks at a time 05:03:42 |3b|: I'm not entirely sure why but developing a JIT compiler in Rpython is actually much faster than hand-tuned JITCs 05:03:59 And so implementation can happen in a matter of weeks 05:04:02 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 05:04:26 I should read up more on the *why* before I keep spreading unfounded nonsense 05:04:35 <|3b|> also, it is really hard to generalize... it might be much faster for some tasks, and completely kill performance for others 05:05:05 |3b|: Is there a way to do some static analysis on progarms, and leave the rest up to JIT? 05:05:11 Like a hybrid compiler set 05:05:17 <|3b|> there are ways to do lots of things :) 05:05:27 <|3b|> whether they are useful or not is harder to say 05:05:28 Is that a known method? :) 05:05:33 Known useful method. 05:05:51 *|3b|* doesn't read much compiler research, but it seems reasonable 05:06:06 I'm sure it's been done 05:06:08 Static analysis on programs - leave the rest up to JIT - that's the plan. 05:06:18 drmeister: was that sarcasm or is that really a thing? 05:06:49 kristof: That's my plan. I don't do sarcasm. 05:06:55 drmeister: Good to know. 05:06:56 <|3b|> also depends on how you define "static analysis", since you would probably be doing some compilation AOT anyway (to bytecode or whatever) before feeding it to the JIT 05:08:07 <|3b|> so even without specifically thinking of it in those terms, you would probably factor out some of the obvious stuff 05:08:21 drmeister: You might be interested in this: http://qinsb.blogspot.com/2011/03/unladen-swallow-retrospective.html 05:08:24 I don't know if you've read it. 05:08:43 I was actually thinking about you when I read this and was wondering if you had encountered some of the same problems. 05:09:59 *|3b|* would probably investigate luajit if i were writing a JITted lisp, no idea if that would be a productive direction or not though 05:10:13 alezost [~user@128-70-201-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:10:30 *|3b|* usually goes through some VM or other JITted language like JS rather than compiling directly 05:10:34 |3b|: lua is a simpler language than common lisp is, which is why it was so easy to write luajit (compared to most other JIT compilers) 05:11:28 <|3b|> right, but building up from a simple base might be easier than trying to shift some dissimilar complex base like llvm sideways 05:11:40 drmeister: but it didn't occur to me that you were intending on creating a JIT compiler using the LLVM toolset. I'm very interested to see if this leads to more performant common lisp code (in some areas). 05:11:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-139.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:12:03 |3b|: You can't build up from a JIT compiler for the lua language written in C 05:12:30 |3b|: But yes, that's why I was suggesting rpython and pypy as the basis of a JIT compiler. It would be a lot faster to implement. 05:12:31 <|3b|> kristof: well, then i probably wouldn't get very far if i did investigate it :p 05:12:40 ...And that's it! That's the third project on my lisp. :) 05:12:59 *list, although that was an interesting typo 05:13:04 *|3b|* would probably also be interested in embedding, similarly to the way lua is used though, which would be another benefit of starting with something like luajit 05:13:39 Oh! I remembered, heh. 05:13:57 -!- syrinx is now known as mOOse 05:14:01 Pypy lets you allocate stack frames onto the heap, so you can trivially support coroutines and (delimited) continuations and the like. :) 05:14:04 kristof: Just so I'm clear - you mean a Common Lisp compiler that just-in-time compiles to native code? 05:14:11 drmeister: of course 05:14:45 Well, you could mean more - like lazy JIT of functions. 05:14:58 I don't even know what that means 05:15:08 Delaying the compilation of functions until they're called? 05:15:14 Is there any theoretical benefit to that? 05:16:08 -!- mOOse is now known as syrinx 05:16:18 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 05:16:25 drmeister: more like recompiling the IR when runtime analysis tells the JIT there's a possible speedup, just like V8 or Hotspot 05:16:53 kristof: It's a bone of contention with folks developing dynamic languages using LLVM. 05:17:31 vowyer: Isn't that how hotspot got its name? 05:17:35 hotspots in code 05:18:00 drmeister: I just read a thread from the llvm-dev group on google, looks like it 05:18:01 kristof: yes, but that comes from Java needing to run everywhere without recompilation to native 05:18:05 LLVM has two JITters, the old JIT and MCJIT. The old JIT does lazy function JIT. MCJIT is newer, uses code from the main trunk of Clang development and doesn't do lazy JIT. 05:18:14 ecl core generation crashes in the most obscure way possible :( 05:18:17 I see 05:18:30 drmeister: Did you read the link that I sent you? 05:18:46 kristof: Yes, it's a bit of a downer. 05:19:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:19:27 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 05:19:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:19:47 kristof, drmeister: do you know pypy? 05:19:52 so-that you can py while you py 05:20:31 sthalik: I know python, if that's what you mean. And I recently learned of pypy from an academic paper about the surprising benefits of developing a jit compiler in rpython. 05:21:23 And I was thinking about jit compilers and wondering why common lisp did not have one. And then I learned that clisp+ gnu lightning does that, but... I hesitate with that latter combination 05:21:36 I am glad that drmeister is working on one 05:21:48 kristof, but sbcl works fine with declarations 05:21:58 and dynamic parameterization 05:22:12 gives problematic complexity non-guarantees 05:22:32 probably 05:22:53 Doesn't SBCL generate native code? 05:23:00 does it 05:23:02 it does* 05:23:16 drmeister: As much of a downer it might be, your project is better suited for llvm than pypy or parrot (the last item is totally unusable for anything, imo) because of your c++ interop requirements 05:23:19 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:41 kristof, parrot lives? 05:23:47 *kristof* shrugs 05:23:51 you never know with open source stuff 05:24:01 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:24:03 the lead developer is a very smart person 05:24:08 I respect her a lot 05:24:24 actually I do not know if she is still the lead developer but I know she started the project 05:24:37 it is very ambitiuos and has good ideas but... bleh, not usable for anything 05:24:39 Are there any uses nowadays for JIT when native code is available and when all code is going parallel/GPU? Except microbenchmarks 05:25:08 vowyer: For dynamic languages that can't be analyzed effectively enough with AOT compilers 05:25:18 for instance: python and ruby 05:25:25 I do not know if this applies to common lisp, but it might. 05:25:32 kristof: And Javascript, yes? 05:25:35 This is not me bad-mouthing sbcl! 05:25:41 loke: Yes, of course 05:25:58 loke: well, you could make a javascript jit compiler but I think it's totally interpreted, right? 05:26:16 kristof: The Javascript engine in Chrome is JIT'ed as far as I know 05:26:20 didn't know that 05:26:25 I don't know a lot of things :) 05:26:39 it is natural 05:27:02 oxum [~oxum@122.164.217.155] has joined #lisp 05:27:17 Accoridng to the wikipedia page: "V8 compiles JavaScript to native machine code (IA-32, x86-64, ARM, or MIPS ISAs)[3][6] before executing it, instead of more traditional techniques such as executing bytecode or interpreting it." 05:27:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine) 05:27:50 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.201.57] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 Definitely seems to be a JIT according to any definition of the term that I know of. 05:28:18 jit implies bytecode 05:28:26 what is bytecode? 05:28:36 an intermediary form before native machine code 05:28:37 kristof: Does it? 05:28:46 loke: I'm pretty sure it does. That's what wikipedia said about JIT :( 05:29:50 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:29:54 -!- slarti [~anonymous@50-202-45-98-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 05:30:13 kristof, but isn't any kind of ast/IR a bytecode? 05:30:14 :) 05:30:22 anyway, what's the point of this discussion? 05:30:28 why do you love bytecode so much? ;) 05:30:29 kristof: wikipedia probably doesn't take Lisp into account 05:30:37 normally doesn't 05:30:39 lispentome [636c8ca3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.108.140.163] has joined #lisp 05:30:42 Lisp uses an AST at runtime which can be JITed 05:31:03 DataLinkDroid: the fasl file contains the parse tree, yeah? 05:31:12 DataLinkDroid: Lisp IS an AST 05:31:14 hEY! 05:31:17 I need some help 05:31:24 vowyer: needs to be parsed, just like everything else :P 05:31:39 <|3b|> kristof: CL is defined in terms of the parsed data, not the source text 05:31:46 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:31:49 huh, that is true 05:31:50 Can someone give me an example on how to setup a problem? 05:32:02 lispentome: install perl 05:32:20 -.- 05:32:21 I meant 05:32:23 For school 05:33:04 Figure out what you want the problem-solver to achieve, or demonstrate proficiency in. 05:33:22 Then come up with a scenario that requires said proficiency :) 05:33:34 Oh, you mean you've been given a problem statement and you want to know how to solve it :P 05:33:46 I am not here to do your homework, but sure, why not. 05:33:55 https://www.hackerrank.com/challenges/eval-ex 05:33:55 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:34:09 I can't figure out how to read multiple lines from STDIN 05:34:30 it's not really homework 05:34:31 mmmm, taylor polynomials 05:34:47 this is specifically a mclaurin one 05:34:53 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.9.189] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 05:35:21 <|3b|> kristof: as far as why there aren't any/many JIT CLs, that is probably mostly just due to lack of people who want to write them, and most CL implementations being older than JIT (and runtime AOT being close enough to JIT for lot of use cases where JIT is helpful, so less need for them) 05:35:47 What does AOT stand for? 05:35:53 ahead of time compilation 05:36:00 meaning, compile, bam, it's there 05:36:07 as opposed to "i'll compile the bytecode later" 05:36:20 Thanks 05:36:49 si u just wanted to kjnow how i would read stdin 05:36:58 if someone could give me an example that'd be great 05:37:03 <|3b|> and it is probably easier to tweak code a bit to make it run fast on sbcl than to write an entirely new implementation, then optimize it to the point it can compete with sbcl, then optimize it some more so it can do those tweaks for you 05:37:06 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:09 |3b|: If that's the case then drmeister's tool will be the first industrial strength jit common lisp compiler. 05:37:37 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.217.155] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 05:37:55 oxum [~oxum@122.164.217.155] has joined #lisp 05:38:09 <|3b|> lispentome: READ probably reads from stdin by default, otherwise you might try reading from *standard-input*, *query-io* or *terminal-io* 05:38:53 so how do i do it 05:39:02 lispentome: (setf input-var (readline)) 05:39:16 lispentome: A simple google search could have sufficed. 05:39:22 <|3b|> clhs read-line 05:39:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 05:39:48 <|3b|> clhs read-char 05:39:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 05:40:06 Joel_re [~jr@110.226.154.111] has joined #lisp 05:40:25 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:40:30 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@71.178.197.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:35 doesn't work 05:40:49 lispentome: it's (read-line) 05:40:52 lispentome: Show your work. What doesn't work? 05:41:17 lispentome: The hyper-spec says very clearly that if you want to read multiple lines, you also pass a second argument of false 05:41:25 <|3b|> don't paste code here though 05:42:42 to setf? 05:43:07 it's not working for me 05:43:20 (setf input-var (read-line)) 05:43:27 how do i read multiple lines 05:43:48 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 <|3b|> call read-line multiple times 05:44:59 <|3b|> (list (read-line) (read-line)) ;; reads 2 lines and returns them in a list 05:45:18 how do i read all the lines in the list 05:45:22 OH 05:45:22 hah. ecl breaks without long double, now trying to replace long double math stuff with stuff that calls double funs 05:45:36 i don't get it 05:46:15 lispentome: are you trying to read all lines in an input stream into a list? 05:46:27 tes 05:46:50 <|3b|> (loop for line = (read-line *standard-input* nil nil) while line collect line) ;; reads lines from *standard-input*until EOF 05:47:07 lispentome: the typical way would be to do this: (loop for s = (read-line stream nil nil) collect s) 05:47:33 yeah... sorry 05:47:49 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:47:57 I should have done: (loop for s = (read-line stream nil nil) while s collect s) 05:48:29 ok 05:48:37 how do i perform those to a function? 05:48:53 bin/ecl: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, EABI5 version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped 05:48:56 how cool is that? :) 05:49:14 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.217.155] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:50:16 oxum [~oxum@122.164.206.160] has joined #lisp 05:52:30 protist [~protist@69.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 05:53:27 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:54:48 hm. it won't work, just spins 05:55:39 lispentome: That expression evaluates to a lisp. How do you map a function across an entire list? 05:56:00 sthalik: you continue your own patching, haven't tried the https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android version? 05:56:21 antonv, i've applied their patches 05:56:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:56:55 lispentome: So you'd probably loop over a list of (evaluated numbers which happen to be (the output of mapcarring over (the list collected from (reading form input)))) and do (write-line)) 05:57:17 sthalik: I am just curious about the lisp on the phone usage, let us know how it goes 05:57:20 oh 05:57:20 ok 05:57:29 *the expression evaluates to a list. That is the SECOND time today I made that typo. 05:57:30 so essentially i need to define a variable stream? 05:57:49 sthalik: the ecl-android github repo seems actively supported, has commits a month ago 05:57:51 lispentome: it doesn't need to be a stream. 05:57:59 sthalik: it still misses something? 05:58:08 antonv, their build procedure's broken, config.sub etc 05:59:01 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.206.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:59:02 oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.170.110] has joined #lisp 05:59:07 then how do i store them in a list 05:59:18 more specifically, what is te name of the list in your example? 06:00:33 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-190-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:00:43 lispentome: I didn't. I just shoved a bunch of lines from standard input into a list and didn't bother to name that list anything. 06:02:18 ok 06:02:22 i ee what i have to do 06:02:30 -!- lispentome [636c8ca3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.108.140.163] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:03:20 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:33 forgot to tell him to iterate over each item in the list until it was within the value threshold but he can figure that out :P 06:03:44 pjb`, hi 06:03:47 make: *** No rule to make target `interpreted.mem', needed by `all'. Stop. 06:03:52 do you know how to xc properly? 06:04:16 is the bytecode portable? 06:05:21 hmm, this table is missing lisp: http://langlangmatrix.com/ 06:05:44 what's this, new religious movement index? 06:06:18 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 06:06:49 jewel [~jewel@105-236-245-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:07:17 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:07:34 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 06:07:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:10:18 pjb`, is it possible to swap .mem files between arches? 06:10:49 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:20 bummer. they're not :( 06:11:28 then how is one supposed to cross it... 06:12:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:12:30 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:13:25 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 06:16:58 sthalik: what's the problem? 06:17:28 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:17 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:19:50 antonv, build system can't generate .mem for clisp when crossing 06:19:50 ggole [~ggole@220-253-143-161.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:20:05 sthalik: ah, for clisp 06:20:14 for ecl, it dies anyway :( 06:20:32 sthalik: when running on the phone? how dies - what symptoms? 06:20:52 antonv, spinning cpu, no prompt 06:20:53 brb 06:21:53 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:22:29 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:29 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.201.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:10 didn't hack it too much, and got no truss or gdb on the phone 06:24:21 is it crazy to install gnu cc on the phone? :) 06:24:28 it has little ram :( 06:27:26 -!- iwilcox [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27:32 iwilcox_ [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 06:27:52 -!- iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox 06:29:25 oh, i see. android-ecl guys are using specific revisions of parent repos, "% git pull" in ecl subdir wasn't the smartest move 06:29:34 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.51] has joined #lisp 06:29:34 silly me 06:31:48 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tawwikyobpxurjzo] has joined #lisp 06:32:42 effy_ [~x@123.122.64.229] has joined #lisp 06:33:11 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:33:22 -!- effy [~x@114.246.73.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:33:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.33] has joined #lisp 06:33:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.33] has quit [Changing host] 06:33:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:33:38 antonv, are you affiliated with the project? 06:34:18 sthalik: no, I just read ECL mailing list 06:35:16 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:06 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:39:08 -!- Joel_re [~jr@110.226.154.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:40:04 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.41.68] has joined #lisp 06:42:23 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-qrthscjksinrbqql] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:43:15 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:43:22 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.54] has joined #lisp 06:44:52 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:46:12 there's slight libatomic_ops bug 06:46:23 it fails to create parent dir, breaking template generation 06:47:52 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:49:06 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:50:33 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 06:52:55 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:56:41 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:46 -!- iwilcox [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:57:09 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 06:58:45 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:01:09 iwilcox [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 07:01:55 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:41 antonv: can you test the latest asdf w/ your cl-grid ? 07:02:53 also — do you now use uiop? 07:03:31 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.94.251] has left #lisp 07:04:15 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:27 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:06:57 Fare: can't setup ASDF testing in the few weeks - large todo list for the next few weeks 07:07:59 I am still reviewing and reporting failures from quicklisp 2013-11-11, need to fix some things in cl-test-grid, also promised to write and send some docs 07:08:13 ok, np 07:08:16 -!- oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.170.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:08:18 as for uiop 07:08:25 I was hoping to get asdf 3.1.1 released this year 07:08:28 you mean to run external-programs, right 07:08:45 yes, and any other filesystem / pathname / utility functions 07:09:16 when I start child process, I need to get the process ID and if timeout happens, kill the whole process tree 07:09:29 Joel_re [~jr@110.226.157.108] has joined #lisp 07:09:49 the latest uiop lets you do that, though not as part of its high-level interface that handles redirection. 07:09:50 this process and its possible (sub)children 07:10:04 to get process ID? 07:10:08 that's great 07:10:20 yes — on implementations that provide it. 07:11:18 if you want to combine that with the redirection support, oh well, I don't have code for that, but I'm accepting patches, I suppose. 07:12:07 Fare: I do not rely on redirections - was sure it will bring portability problems 07:12:09 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 07:12:45 child process saves the response to a file and I read the file 07:14:14 Fare: reading the uiop code, trying to find the way to run process and get its ID 07:15:30 -!- Watcher7 [~w@silly.tabby.cat] has quit [Quit: ded] 07:15:41 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 antonv, why would the ecl build require nonexistent sb-bsd-sockets? 07:16:25 Watcher7 [~w@silly.tabby.cat] has joined #lisp 07:17:22 sthalik: I don't know exactly why your error happens, but maybe it would be helpful for you to know that ECL reuses sockets module from SBCL 07:17:33 sthalik: sockets is a contrib 07:18:11 and it can't be found :( 07:18:23 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:18:25 Fare: so it looks like I need to use (%process-info-pid (%run-program ...)) 07:18:33 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:16 Fare: this new uiop functionality will help me to increase portability of test-grid-agent 07:19:29 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 07:19:48 currently the external-program is the main portability problem, which ties tg-agent process to CCL 07:20:40 this is portable to many cl's 07:20:54 but migration would take to retest the code with various child lisp processes on various OSes, so I will postpone the migration for now 07:20:57 but obviously not all of them. 07:21:04 of course 07:21:20 a fully general solution would involve using iolib 07:21:23 yes, ABCL as far as I know doesn't have API for external programs 07:21:35 it has system() 07:21:37 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 07:23:49 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:05 oxum [~oxum@122.164.95.213] has joined #lisp 07:24:22 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 07:24:23 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:25:05 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:26:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:27:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.140.27] has joined #lisp 07:27:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.140.27] has quit [Changing host] 07:27:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:27:50 hello. asdf-definitions allow dependencies in (:file ...) components, iirc, but I have forgotten how to declare them, could somebody please quickly help me (its hard to find examples somehow) 07:28:19 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:30:16 prxq [~mommer@x2f67305.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:29 not sure what you mean, but there are plenty of examples 07:31:54 just cargocult an existing system 07:34:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:15 Hm. Thanks. I found the error to be somewhere else -.- 07:39:19 sorry for the question 07:43:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:43:49 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:44:06 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:46:04 -!- Joel_re [~jr@110.226.157.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:47:17 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@70-58-115-41.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:48:15 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:49:28 devon [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has joined #lisp 07:50:43 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@250.120.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:51:15 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:27 Joel_re [~jr@110.226.157.108] has joined #lisp 08:00:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:03:35 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:06:45 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0026.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:51 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 08:10:06 -!- qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 08:10:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-139.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:33 qlkzy_ [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 08:19:34 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 08:24:07 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:13 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:26:52 -!- Joel_re [~jr@110.226.157.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:27:00 Joel_re [~jr@110.226.157.108] has joined #lisp 08:27:44 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.226] has joined #lisp 08:34:55 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:39:02 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-141-118.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:47 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:11 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 08:44:14 -!- effy_ is now known as effy 08:44:27 tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 08:44:37 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:44:52 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.36.164] has joined #lisp 08:48:43 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:21 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:53:04 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:54:27 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:37 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.29.183.115] has joined #lisp 08:57:38 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:03:15 why does this print 3? (let ((x (let ((a 1)) (lambda (x) (incf a))))) (progn (funcall x 3) (print (funcall x 4)))) 09:03:19 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.95.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:03:20 shouldn't it print 8? 09:03:26 seems broken 09:03:47 -!- tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has left #lisp 09:04:03 <|3b|> it ignores X 09:04:04 tatsuhiko [~user@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 09:04:20 <|3b|> so increments A twice, for a total of 3 09:04:38 <|3b|> ignores the function argument X that is 09:04:44 i gotcha!!!! 09:04:53 oxum [~oxum@122.164.9.19] has joined #lisp 09:05:10 thank you :) 09:05:26 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:05:54 (let ((x (let ((a 1)) (lambda (x) (incf a x))))) (progn (funcall x 3) (print (funcall x 4)))) 09:06:00 works as intended now :) 09:06:49 add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:08:07 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@145-7.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 alexherbo2 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[~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:46:09 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:47:00 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 10:47:57 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:46 Joel_re [~jr@223.179.164.174] has joined #lisp 10:50:50 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:52:30 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:53:20 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:54:07 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:13 ggole [~ggole@106-68-34-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:55:47 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0026.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: BBL] 10:56:13 Is there any library that can build ASCII tables or something like this? 10:57:24 By ASCII tables I mean tables made of ASCII characters, not coding tables. 10:57:49 hitecnologys: thought about cl-ncurses? 10:58:30 I'm pretty sure you can ask the library to limit the pseudo-graphics to ASCII characters (though it's only a guess). 10:58:54 antoszka: of course, but I don't really need graphics, I just need to print some stuff in readable format. 10:59:01 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.9.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:59:22 Some FORMAT wrangling then I suppose :) 10:59:49 oxum [~oxum@122.164.230.212] has joined #lisp 11:00:39 Sure, I just wonder maybe somebody did that before me so I don't need to reinvent the wheel. 11:00:51 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 hitecnologys: It's not much wrangling; lots of FORMAT is just for this purpose. 11:09:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:11:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.233] has joined #lisp 11:12:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.233] has quit [Changing host] 11:12:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:12:24 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 11:12:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:53 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:03 splittist_: yeah, you are right. I was easier than I could imagine. 11:16:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-141-118.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:16:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:16:44 I hear that's a bad thing for a girl. 11:17:36 Opps, s/I was/It was/. 11:17:43 Zhivago: what do you mean? 11:18:13 iglu [~nick@106-68-155-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:19:30 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 11:19:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-202.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:20:59 -!- protist [~protist@69.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:24:14 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:28:33 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:15 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:31:52 -!- iglu [~nick@106-68-155-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:54 jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-92.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:31:55 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:40:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-92.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:40:41 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:36 hitecnologys: easy girls are considered bad [; 11:43:15 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:43:45 jackdaniel: well, I'm not a girl. 11:44:12 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 11:44:18 read once again few past messages 11:46:08 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.230.212] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:46:09 Hm... I still don't get it. =| 11:46:58 hitecnologys: possibly because it's not that funny. ;) 11:47:02 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:47:03 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:52:04 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:55:33 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 11:56:02 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:51 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:59:58 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:28 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:00:35 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 12:04:25 Is cl-charms (plain ncurses bindings) the best I can use to make a text-mode UI? 12:06:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:07:35 -!- daro [~daroson__@218.16.57.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:38 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:20 naryl: I think so, yes. 12:11:42 is there a difference between cl-charms and cl-curses? 12:11:53 CFFI and UFFI IIRC. 12:11:55 I glanced over some code on a forum just now, and it looks exactly the same. 12:12:00 ah 12:12:10 Yeah, they are mostly the same thing. 12:16:56 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:27 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 12:19:56 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:20:08 cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:41 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:21:48 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:27:31 -!- Joel_re [~jr@223.179.164.174] has left #lisp 12:28:30 -!- flip214 is now known as flip-sUse 12:29:24 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-107.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:30:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 12:32:24 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:33:18 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 12:36:40 oxum [~oxum@122.164.40.110] has joined #lisp 12:39:38 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:40:42 astalla [~astalla@93.62.202.194] has joined #lisp 12:43:48 Poenikatu [~user@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 12:44:22 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:45:33 Does anybody know where I can get a free/download copy of ANSI Common Lisp by Paul Graham? 12:45:35 railly [~lilin@211.142.247.91] has joined #lisp 12:46:18 Poenikatu: at his site. 12:46:40 What, PG's? 12:46:58 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47:06 Yes. 12:47:08 -!- flip-sUse is now known as flip511 12:48:55 Hm. Well, I can't find it there. Only On Lisp. Weird. 12:49:23 There's this: http://www.paulgraham.com/acl.html but that only has an amazon link. 12:49:36 I think it was there, but the link to the PDF file has gone 12:49:56 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-13-1.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:50:01 Aha, looks like this. 12:50:15 What? 12:50:35 Like link has gone. 12:51:08 I remember it was there before. 12:51:11 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:51:15 Yes. This morning I accidentally trashed my external hard disc. 12:52:00 So no documentation, no videos, no music. All gone. Sigh! 12:52:19 I had the same thing happen in May. Sucks. :( 12:52:51 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:53:03 What's more, it looks as though I cannot install a new partition table on it. 12:53:05 The same thing happened to me about two years ago. Now I always do regular backups. 12:53:27 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:55 I was doing backups to the external hard disc. From now on, optical media *only* 12:54:45 Aha, CDs are great thing. 12:54:50 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-13-1.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:54:58 Poenikatu: If you were doing backups to this disc you should still have the original data. 12:55:05 KaiQ [~localhost@wlan242208.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:16 Unless you did backups from one HDD to itself. o.O 12:55:21 naryl: I think he trashed it. 12:55:32 naryl: and then deleted files on original disk. 12:55:40 Poenikatu: am I right? 12:55:52 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-56-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:56:12 somebody is looking for ansi common lisp? 12:56:34 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:56:48 jackdaniel: Poenikatu was. I wouldn't mind having a copy, if it's legal. 12:57:15 samskulls: what do you mean? 12:57:45 jackdaniel: do you have a copy? 12:58:20 samskulls: Sometimes laws are so nonsensical you'd do best by ignoring them. Join your local Pirate party today and send money to PG if you think he deserves it. :) 12:58:21 I mean, if the book was taken down from PG's site intentionally and isn't available except from sketchy sources, I don't really want it. 12:58:23 yes, but im not really sure if it's legal - how do you define leagal here 12:58:40 legal* 12:58:47 It's a question of PG's intent. 12:59:01 how can we predict his intent? 12:59:07 We can ask? 12:59:18 true that 12:59:22 We should probably ask, yeah. 12:59:28 One should email him and ask about link disapperarance. 13:00:15 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:26 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:55 jackdaniel: Unfortunately, that dropbox URL doesn't work for me 13:02:34 weird enough, ive downloaded it back to see - link works. i really g2g now 13:03:03 Poenikatu: you might need to unescape the %XX bits. 13:03:29 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 13:04:06 samskulls: May I suggest that you write PG about the link? 13:04:15 Because I have a feeling that otherwise no one will. 13:04:38 I might actually do that. I've already read the book, but I'd be curious to hear his response. 13:05:03 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:18 At any rate, I've been awake too long to start drafting emails to Grown Up People right now. 13:05:23 See y'all later. 13:05:38 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:05:49 I imagined it. Four people sitting in fromnt of their PCs and thinking "somebody else will write. No need to spam PG with identical mails" :D 13:12:51 -!- railly [~lilin@211.142.247.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:09 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 jackdaniel: Thanks a lot. Link downloaded. Now I can continue my studies. 13:16:15 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:36 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:17:12 echo-area [~user@123.120.254.97] has joined #lisp 13:18:06 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 13:18:08 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:19:22 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 13:20:42 mc40_ [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 13:21:13 dsp__ [~dsp@technoanimal.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:18 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:56 Stygia [~gmpsaifi@193.104.83.223] has joined #lisp 13:23:22 aerique_ [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:23:25 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:23:26 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:26 -!- dsp_ [~dsp@technoanimal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:26 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:23:27 -!- aerique [~euqirea@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:23:27 -!- mc40_ is now known as mc40 13:23:35 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:31 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:28:41 minion: memo for Ryan_Burnside: TIBCO is just a DSL. It's probably written in Common Lisp ;-) 13:28:42 Remembered. I'll tell Ryan_Burnside when he/she/it next speaks. 13:31:02 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32:11 minion: memo for Ryan_Burnside: CL runs on android, in several ways. One easy: enter PlayStore, get Maxima, type to_lisp() and fall down into ECL. 13:32:11 Remembered. I'll tell Ryan_Burnside when he/she/it next speaks. 13:33:37 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:35:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 13:37:05 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:37:24 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:30 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.36.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:38:55 minion: memo for sthalik: Sorry, I never tried to cross compile a CL implementation. I'd just fire a debian on Qemu ARM, and compile natively there. 13:38:56 Remembered. I'll tell sthalik when he/she/it next speaks. 13:39:29 minion: memo for sthalik: cf https://www.informatimago.com/articles/raspberrypi/ccl-sur-qemu.html 13:39:29 Remembered. I'll tell sthalik when he/she/it next speaks. 13:41:20 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:43:22 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:48:08 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:48:14 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:49:22 k0001 [~k0001@181.110.66.19] has joined #lisp 13:50:29 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:55:32 -!- qlkzy_ is now known as qlkzy 14:01:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:02:25 -!- cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:02:46 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gfjfddicidooarlm] has joined #lisp 14:04:31 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 14:04:40 ramkrsna__ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wlcrihnlewaseqaj] has joined #lisp 14:06:06 hitecnologys: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.picture and for an example, com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.tree-to-ascii. 14:06:08 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:07:47 pjb: OK, I'll take a look at it. Thanks. 14:08:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:08:22 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gfjfddicidooarlm] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:09:19 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 14:11:10 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:11:23 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:11:24 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:14:30 bl0 [~user@91.150.147.9.internetia.net.pl] has joined #lisp 14:16:31 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:06 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-17-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:45 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:23:33 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 14:23:55 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:40 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:28:17 hitecnologys: maybe you mixed up ACL with onlisp which is indeed available for download? if acl was available for download then the link disappeared more than a year ago... 14:31:49 -!- bl0 [~user@91.150.147.9.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:33:09 skeptomai [4086ef4b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.64.134.239.75] has joined #lisp 14:34:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:11 eMBee: maybe. I have really poor memory. 14:36:32 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:39:33 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:44:33 gko_ [~gko@111.80.17.102] has joined #lisp 14:45:56 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:44 akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:43 antgreen [~green@out-on-133.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 -!- antgreen [~green@out-on-133.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:28 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- Ash [~aaron@facestab.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:29 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:01:40 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-56-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:21 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:02:51 chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 15:03:45 ahungry_ [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:03 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:22 BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:38 zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has joined #lisp 15:05:51 Ash [~aaron@facestab.org] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:00 -!- skeptomai [4086ef4b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.64.134.239.75] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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It appears that cl.net is not entirely down, but just so slow that the requests time out. 17:07:29 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:07:31 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 Does anybody know what is going on, and what is likely to happen in the future? 17:08:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:08:49 I mean, this is a pretty embarrassing situation, at least in my opinion. 17:09:21 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:27 -!- tatsuhik` [~user@188.165.96.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:35 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:12:50 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:14 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@193.104.83.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:35 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:56 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:15:16 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 17:15:45 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:15:50 -!- k0001 [~k0001@181.110.66.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:54 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:17:58 obviously we need a new CL website 17:18:03 with pretty CSS to draw in the bay area people 17:18:08 and a facelift to the hyperspec 17:18:59 Well, according to the home page of cl.net, it is currently being reworked. 17:19:29 And a new website won't necessarily solve the problem. 17:20:17 paul0 [~paul0@187.59.59.7] has joined #lisp 17:20:37 eudoxia: And I assume you know that the HyperSpec as well as the original text are both protected by copyright. 17:20:55 Relying on the kindness of people has its limits when the community is so small. 17:21:17 okay, no hyperspec 17:21:20 splittist_: For running websites you mean? 17:21:33 beach: I had the idea to write a re-implementation of the X protocol in CL. After all, the X Window System is really just a protocol. 17:21:37 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.215.158.89.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 17:21:47 beach: but isn't there a draft that is very very close to the final spec which is public domain? 17:22:00 beach: yes. Of course, relying on the kindness of commercial organisations with their own interests to look out for is problematic, too. 17:22:02 With the use of sockets, it shouldn't be all that difficult. 17:22:03 segv-: I didn't know that. 17:22:19 Poenikatu: Yes, exactly. What happened to the idea? 17:22:43 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:22:51 Poenikatu: CLX is written that way, it does not use FFI. 17:23:01 or at least not very much. 17:23:09 segv-: kinda sorta, AIUI. As always, the question is 'who is going to come after me if I do it'... 17:24:14 beach: I haven't learnt enough Lisp yet. I was using Paul Graham's book when a fit of abstraction came upon me and I searched high and low for an implementation of GNOME that would suit me. Result? I accidentally wrote to /dev/sdc instead of /dev/sdb. sdb was the USB stick. Unfortunately, sdc was my exterior USB hard disc. Sigh 17:24:16 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-qrthscjksinrbqql] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:32 segv-: I think a better idea would be to write a new document, more pedagogical, so with different wordings. 17:24:50 Poenikatu: Darn! 17:25:06 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 17:25:57 beach: To cap it all, I went to sleep on the armchair in my sitting-room, and when I awoke, I thought it was 5am on Tuesday morning. I made myself breakfast and then discovered that all the clocks said 17:15 on MONDAY! 17:26:02 segv-: The target audience of the HyperSpec is mostly language implementers, so it is often hard to understand for application programmers. 17:26:21 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:52 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 17:27:12 The troube is, in Northern Scotland, 17:15 looks just the same as 05:15: dark. 17:27:27 At least, in December 17:27:39 Yes, I see. 17:27:43 -!- ramkrsna__ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wlcrihnlewaseqaj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:34 beach: moot point, i seem to be wrong about the copyright'ness of the draft 17:28:37 beach: At least, I have now got the PDF version of Graham's ANSI Common Lisp as well as his On Lisp. So, back to the grind. 17:29:10 segv-: So what do you think of my idea to write a more pedagogical document instead? 17:29:22 segv-: That's another project that could be done incrementally. 17:29:24 beach: I started with ACL, but someone criticized it in this channel. He said that Peter Seibel's book was a lot better. 17:29:40 segv-: One function at a time or one FORMAT directive at a time. 17:30:08 beach: I think you would need some very good examples to launch that. 17:30:23 Poenikatu: I learned from ACL because I learned it before PCL existed. I survived. 17:30:56 beach: generally speaking that's an excellent idea; but it is a lot of work 17:30:59 beach: So, I started with Seibel. Unfortunately, his chapter on CLOS was totally incomprehensible to me. It made me realise that Seibel may be a competent programmer, but his book is pedagogically unsound: no exercises, no index. And incomprehensible explanation of object-orientated programming. 17:31:02 splittist_: Examples as in setting the style for how to write the description for one item? 17:31:03 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/ 17:31:33 segv-: For a single person, yes indeed. 17:31:46 beach: yes. Writing to be understood by someone who doesn't already know what you are trying to say is not easy. 17:32:02 beach: which is why you're paid the big bucks (: 17:32:08 Indeed. 17:32:11 and i'm not convinced it'd be so much better than practical common lisp to make it worth the effort 17:32:30 (or the other lisp books) 17:32:31 well, there's plenty of practical stuff that's outside the scope of PCL 17:32:48 jewel [~jewel@105-237-85-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:32:49 ASDF, quicklisp, examples of using some popular libraries 17:33:09 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-24-13-132-179.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 segv-: PCL is more pedagogical and less complete than what I had in mind. I was thinking of a language reference. 17:33:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:33:23 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.189.59] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 does PCL cover restarts? 17:33:31 it would be cool to write a tutorial that gets new users from nothing to being competent enough to publish open source tools 17:33:43 along best practices/community guidelines 17:34:02 eudoxia: That's a different document again. 17:34:24 beach: pedagogically-speaking, where the CLHS misses out seems to be in the non-dictionary bits. CLtL2 gets this better, because of the more relaxed tone, perhaps. 17:34:41 the common lisp cookbook has always been useful when I needed to look something up 17:34:44 splittist_: That sounds right. 17:35:11 and when I say pedagogically-speaking, I mean in terms of me trying to teach myself (: 17:35:14 splittist_: And yes, can the idea of writing such a thing as a collaborative project. OCLX seems much easier :) 17:35:16 -!- gko_ [~gko@111.80.17.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:36:30 beach: I agree. Is there an easy way for the contributor to test their incremental addition? 17:37:03 splittist_: I don't know. I haven't started the project (yet). 17:37:36 And I probably won't because those dozens of not-quite-newbies willing to pitch in simply don't seem to exist. 17:38:36 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c014:3d0:18fa:314] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:26 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c823:2a44:bd3f:137f] has joined #lisp 17:42:33 pcl has no exercises? which book did i read then? for a developer pcl was just right for me to get started with common lisp. the programs it made me work on were just the right level. i only worked halfway through it though before i started hacking on my own projects. 17:44:09 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 17:44:59 Perhaps this is a problem of subliteracy. 17:45:57 *eMBee* is not familiar with the term subliteracy. 17:47:15 It denotes a stage between technical literacy and functional literacy. 17:47:35 People who can manage to read without actually managing to read. 17:48:11 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:20 heh 17:48:33 usually that's termed reading comprehension 17:48:43 It's the difference between the (loop (read)) and (loop (eval (read))). 17:48:51 where usually = "in my experience" 17:51:32 I would suspect that PCL would be poor for someone learning programming and lisp at the same time though 17:52:17 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:20 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:52:33 -!- gendl [~user@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:52:56 *eMBee* would not disagree 17:54:00 -!- astalla [~astalla@93.62.202.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:53 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.189.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:02:39 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:05:43 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:06:34 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 18:09:33 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:10:57 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-gccuhcnrjwnxucwa] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:13:36 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:14:23 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:16:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-56-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:18:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:13 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:20:19 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.156] has joined #lisp 18:20:43 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:57 rainbyte16 [~rainbyte@190.191.129.32] has joined #lisp 18:23:52 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:46 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 18:25:18 I have ditched PCL as being an unsound way of learning CL. 18:26:06 Back to Graham. My main criticism of Graham is that his exercises are (1) too hard, and (2) don't come with answers, or, at least, possible answers. 18:26:45 PCL unsound how? 18:26:50 Only asking because I've been using it 18:27:04 i tried On Lisp but much preferred PCL's style :P 18:27:20 I know nothing, repeat *nothing*, about networks. So Graham's example of the shortest path in a network leaves me cold. I can make neither hear nor tail of it (old English expression) 18:27:26 Poenikatu: Also, Graham skips most of CL, effectively creating his own idiosyncratic dialect. 18:27:31 *head 18:27:51 I really liked pcl (also common lisp the language 2 was fun) 18:28:27 sellout-: Ok, but at least Graham gives a definitive list of all the symbols in ANSI CL. That list, coupled with the index, make it very much a work of reference. 18:28:55 Poenikatu: But there is already a better reference  the CLHS. 18:29:07 sellout-: Which parts of ANSI CL does Graham omit? 18:29:19 Poenikatu: Conditions, CLOS  18:29:37 PCL is the only decent coverage of conditions, IME. 18:30:10 sellout-: The CLHS is *not* a teaching document. Having learned at least 20 programming languages, I can tell you that CLHS is *not* a teaching text. 18:30:22 Poenikatu: I didnt say it was. 18:30:37 Poenikatu: PCL is the teaching text. CLHS is the associated reference. 18:31:20 sellout-: I find PCL difficult: his introduction to CLOS is the most impenetrable explanation I ever read of any programming concept. 18:31:54 sellout-: I've ordered Sonya Keenes' book on CLOS. Maybe she gives a better explanation. 18:32:13 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:37 Well, I must away to do some LEARNING. 18:32:41 Poenikatu: I have Keenes book, too. PCL is definitely a better introduction. 18:33:48 sellout-: I don't like the sound of that. Seibel's use of banking software is the worst possible example for me: I once learned about doouble-entry book-keeping, but banking is still a closed world to me. 18:34:55 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 IIRC, the banking application is not exactly deep. I know nothing about finance at all. I dont even recall whall double-entry bookkeeping is. 18:35:02 It would help if someone would explain (1) Why object orientated programming, and (2) What are classes, methods and generic functions? It's all gobbledygook to me. 18:35:15 Poenikatu: I suggest that you consider the possibility that you are incompetent at reading and/or learning. 18:35:17 Poenikatu: Oh! Are you new to programming? 18:35:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.224.135] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 isn't CLOS meant to be hard if you're used to OOP in other languages? 18:35:39 Zhivago: Thanks for your opionion. I have 3 technical degrees. 18:35:52 Zhivago: Including a Ph.D. in software engineering 18:35:52 Poenikatu: You might prefer Touretskys (sp?) book, then. 18:36:12 sellout-: I'll have a look at it. 18:36:18 CrazyEddy [~electroca@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:36:24 Poenikatu: PCL is written for someone coming from a Java (or similar class-based language) background. 18:36:34 Ph.D.s are often some of the stupidest people. One reason is that they think that since they have a Ph.D. that they're not subject to stupidity. :) 18:36:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:37:03 sellout-: Well, that's no good for me: I never learned Java. 18:37:25 Zhivago: Of course, you know all about stupidity. 18:37:26 Zhivago: All the phd students I've met are fairly convinced that they are the stupidest people on the planet 18:37:39 can we not do this. 18:37:49 Poenikatu: considering you've learnt 20 langauges I'm sure one of them will be similar to Java :P 18:38:00 Instead we could manage to find the exercises in PCL, I guess. :) 18:38:04 Poenikatu: I think the point is more that Java is about as "industry-standard OOP" as it gets, so any familiarity there should translate. 18:38:07 Anyone up for that reading comprehension task? 18:38:22 haz2: Nope. I include Nicol, COBOL, Algol 60, Algol 68, Simon. The list is long 18:38:25 and I heard that CLOS in PCL is easier to learn if you've *never* done OOP - it's totally different AIUI? 18:38:43 oGMo: IME, java programmers don't understand the first thing of OOP. 18:38:53 It's full of *Helper classes with static methods. 18:39:08 alexherb1 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:39:11 haz2: Well, CLOS is totally different, yes, but IIRC, PCL approaches it from the point of someone who is familiar with the Java approach. 18:39:19 pjb: that's more an artifact of java being bad at certain things 18:39:29 pjb: it's often done simply for performance 18:39:47 If that was true, that'd be a mega LOL. 18:39:51 haz2: I never had to learn OOP. I spent most of my adult working life writing commercial programs in COBOL. 18:39:56 i thought PCL was pretty good, if a bit uncompressed 18:39:59 But no. They just don't know what they're doing, just copy-pasting. 18:39:59 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:10 i suggest just reading lisp source until you understand it ;) 18:40:12 Poenikatu don't worry about clos for now, generic functions are fun and useful on their own 18:40:51 aren't generic functions part of CLOS? 18:40:55 I shall persevere with Graham. His writing style I find useful, although, as I pointed out, his exercises are too hard. 18:41:04 jasom: yes 18:41:31 I've written a book on programming myself (Programming Algol 68 Made Easy, 600+ pages) 18:43:03 Graham seems to be of the opinion that his book should teach esoteric subjects to newcomers to Lisp. When teaching a language, the exercises should be cogent to the language, but not hard in subject matter. 18:43:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:46 Poenikatu: which Graham book? On Lisp is an advanced text; ANSI Common Lisp is the introductory 18:44:04 Teaching is acquired by programming. You have to be taught how to teach. I was. Postgraduate Certificate of Education in 1962-3. 18:44:21 *Teaching is *NOT* acquired by programming. 18:44:41 Poenikatu: what exactly do you mean by "too hard" 18:44:59 Good programmers are not necessarily good teachers, in my experience. 18:45:38 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:45:42 adeht: I find that a lot of cogitation is required for his exercises. And it isn't related to the part of the language that has had just explained. 18:46:39 adeht: Maybe I should send post a copy of my book to my web-site. Then you could download it and see for yourself. 18:46:41 i'm guessing Knuth is certified to teach too, and TAOCP requires a fair bit of cogitation 18:47:12 oGMo: I wasn't aware that TAOCP was intended as a teaching text. 18:47:14 Poenikatu: A generic function defines an abstract operation, specifying its name and a parameter list but no implementation 18:47:14 Poenikatu: you mentioned networks and shortest path.. I assume you mean the breadth-first search part? 18:47:25 taocp is more referency, and i think knuth "just" has a math phd 18:47:27 -!- CrazyEddy [~electroca@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:47:33 adeht: Yes 18:48:02 Poenikatu: I've read ACL a bunch of times, there's no need to "post a copy" 18:48:21 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:48:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:48:29 jasom: Unfortunately, even your simple description I find difficult to grasp. A function without an implementation? 18:48:31 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:42 -!- alexherb1 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:04 Bike: well, it's not a tutorial, but i'm not sure why you would read it if you already understood everything inside .. so this degenerates into "how do you define 'teaching'" 18:49:07 Poenikatu: what knowledge of networks you think you lack in order to solve an exercise about bfs? 18:49:07 adeht: I don't mean of ACL. I mean of PAME (Programming Algol 68 Made Easy) 18:49:38 Poenikatu: (defun eat-a-banana (animal banana)) 18:49:42 See, no implementation. 18:49:47 adeht: Unfortunately, in all the programming I did for money, I never learnt about networking. 18:49:59 Poenikatu: More explicitely: (defun eat-a-banana (animal banana) (error "Missing an implementation")) 18:50:03 Poenikatu: it's a bit like a declaration in say C. 18:50:09 pjb: So what is is utsed for? 18:50:13 *used 18:50:14 Poenikatu: That was copy-pasted from PCL. It goes on to say that if you define a generic function, but no methods for it, then calling it will raise an error 18:50:18 Poenikatu: to add implementations later. 18:50:28 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:50:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:47 oGMo: i don't think it's too controversial that TAOCP has a different teaching intent than most learn-a-language books, including PCL, though 18:51:00 oGMo: I agree 18:51:08 Poenikatu: if you keep reading then you will find that "The actual implementation of a generic function is provided by methods. Each method provides an implementation of the generic function for particular classes of arguments." 18:51:09 (defgeneric eat (animal food)) (eat 'rabit 'carrot) --> error ; (defmethod eat ((animal (eql 'rabit)) food) 'miam) (eat 'rabit 'carrot) --> miam 18:51:29 Poenikatu: in the context of ACL networks are just weighted graphs 18:51:50 A generic function is perhaps most easily thought of as an educable function. 18:51:54 adeht: I didn't learn about them either 18:51:57 Methods being the lessons. 18:52:16 Poenikatu: You might profit from an introductory book on CS. 18:52:16 Zhivago: That does make a modicum of sense 18:52:28 Zhivago: CS? 18:52:34 computer science. 18:52:35 Computer Science. 18:52:46 Counter Strike 18:52:50 learning graphs and searches and such is sophomore-level for software-related majors nowadays 18:53:22 I think Graham even explains what it is.. let me check 18:53:42 is there a way to return NO values from a function? (instead of nil like (values) gives) 18:53:44 Zhivago: Bike Hm. You maybe right. I didn't take a course in CS. I had a mathematics degree with The Open University (in the UK) and lots of commercial experience of computers. 18:53:47 We had to learn about basic graph searching (breadth-first, depth-first and A*) in my high-school CS class 18:53:54 (values) gives no values back. 18:54:06 ytrewq [~ytrewq@208.180.112.134] has joined #lisp 18:54:09 What is happening is that your receive is building its own nil in that case. :) 18:54:26 So, you could try receiving using multiple-value-bind, etc. 18:54:35 jasom: Unfortunately, my mathematics degree included nothing about the theory of graphs or networks 18:54:37 Poenikatu: CS in this context is a sort of subset of math focused on discrete sets (sometimes called 'discrete math', even) 18:54:58 Poenikatu: It's basic CS, so get an introductory CS book. :) 18:55:00 Bike: Again, I no nothing of that either. Sigh :-( 18:55:39 Well, now's your chance to learn! To the library! 18:55:42 Is there a book called "OOP for Dummies"? 18:56:13 You don't need OOP -- you need basic CS -- like graphs. 18:56:31 Zhivago: If it's not on-line, no go. Can't get to the library. Leg's don't work that well. 18:56:31 When you've gotten a handle on that, then you can think about vague witchdoctory like OOP. 18:56:43 probably thousands, unfortunately 18:57:03 Bike: Why unfortunately? 18:57:11 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:57:47 Poenikatu: because they all suck, and nobody agrees on what OOP is. See for example http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html 18:59:00 I think that OOP basically comes down to procedural abstraction with a partitioning of accidental interfaces. 19:01:10 indeed PG takes for granted that you know about such graphs (there's a section about trees, which he also assumes you know about.. apparently you've understood that?).. maybe you should indeed check out Touretzky (as well as a book about basic data types) 19:01:50 Zhivago: I'm trying to make a macro that controls how many values are used from a function that returns multiple values ei: (+ (use 2 (floor 1 2)) 3 4) it works unless I say (use 0 ) and then it returns nil instead which is slightly annoying 19:02:03 because 0 is the most natural number 19:02:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:23 doesthiswork: Again, I think that it returns no values, but what accepts its result is turning that into a nil. 19:02:44 yes that sounds true 19:02:49 Are you measuring the result using multiple-value-list, or something appropriate like that? 19:04:01 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:04:13 HG` [~HG@79.142.73.56] has joined #lisp 19:04:15 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@250.120.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:04:17 yes values->list, trim list, list->values 19:04:41 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:43 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@250.120.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:52 well, (multiple-value-list (values)) => nil, versus (multiple-values-list nil) => (nil) 19:05:55 I have started to read "Concrete Mathematics" by 3 authors, including Donald Knuth. 19:05:56 sounds reasonable 19:06:13 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:06:20 (in reference to Bike's line) 19:06:23 -!- Poenikatu [~user@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:06:37 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 -!- lc0dd0cl2 is now known as lc0dd0cl 19:07:30 nevermind, what I wrote doesn't work at all 19:07:38 thank you 19:10:44 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:11:40 btw it's awesome that sbcl has a coloring register allocatior now :).. 19:17:27 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ydqqazpdfagjdxue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:17:53 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-85-3.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:18:18 -!- HG` [~HG@79.142.73.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:35 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 19:20:39 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:23:13 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-34-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:29:02 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:29:13 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:30:01 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:30:47 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:33:06 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ufbjdupfymttbygf] has joined #lisp 19:38:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:18 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:40:08 sz0 [~sz@208.72.139.54] has joined #lisp 19:40:34 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-rjfotvvblyhgvtxm] has joined #lisp 19:43:11 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:43:18 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:44:07 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:47:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:40 francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 Peter Norvig wrote a library that translate common lisp to dylan 19:53:38 -!- harish [~harish@124.197.102.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:54:55 CrazyEddy [~beclatter@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: flexi-streams 1.0.10, hunchentoot 1.2.22, SBCL 1.1.14, cl-who 1.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.8 19:57:39 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 20:00:31 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:32 Why is that unreachable? http://paste.lisp.org/display/140428 20:00:43 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:02:10 He3HH [~user@S0106602ad07f29c3.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:11 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:02:35 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 fiveop: do you mean some code or the website? 20:02:40 because it's the latter for me 20:03:02 the former 20:03:12 but the page is slow here as well 20:03:19 paste's down here too. how irritating. 20:03:20 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:33 boo. I want my money back. 20:04:19 could use another pastebin right now. 20:04:30 http://pastebin.com/kwcCPD8D (does anyone know a better alternative?) 20:05:00 -!- He3HH [~user@S0106602ad07f29c3.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:27 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:05:31 doesthiswork [816500ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.101.0.234] has joined #lisp 20:06:26 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:26 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:06:26 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:06:32 i think that depends on what ensure-transaction does. 20:09:06 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:10:11 brickhaz` [~user@a72-246-0-10.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 thanks :P 20:11:48 i mean, nobody's going to be able to help without knowing that. 20:11:49 the macro contained code that would always throw 20:14:11 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:14:38 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:16:37 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:18:42 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.215.158.89.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 20:21:48 francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has joined #lisp 20:23:10 USER1 [~chatzilla@188.73.252.128] has joined #lisp 20:23:29 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:39 -!- USER1 [~chatzilla@188.73.252.128] has left #lisp 20:25:15 -!- doesthiswork [816500ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.101.0.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:28:45 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:30:29 -!- ytrewq [~ytrewq@208.180.112.134] has quit [] 20:32:07 was anyone attracted by Dylan? 20:34:00 Newton programmers ;-) 20:35:16 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:35:47 doesthiswork_ [816500ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.101.0.234] has joined #lisp 20:36:23 I would have been if I had used it previous to CL 20:37:27 I still think it's pretty cool, but I'm not going to make the effort to learn something less popular than CL, not when CL hit a very nice high of good enough. 20:37:28 Dylan never lived up to its developers' performance expectations and was a tough sell for a development team unaccustomed to Lisp programming. 20:37:55 ^^ from the reference pjb made about newton! 20:38:45 dlowe: me neither... but just curious because i was mucking around with norvig's ltd library 20:38:52 Ah, languages less popular than CL. Now that's saying something 20:41:25 hmm Facebook has introduced an AI lab. Anybody else notice that the initials for facebook artificial intelligence lab would be FAIL? 20:42:45 I want to make something like, use-values such that (func a (use-values c) d) => (multiple-value-call #'func (values a) c (values d)) 20:43:10 jasom: interesting observation 20:46:47 doesthiswork_: not really possible 20:47:48 yeah, I'm reading a post by Siskind on why not 20:49:19 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-85-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:50:49 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c823:2a44:bd3f:137f] has quit [Quit: EvW] 20:50:55 harish [~harish@203.118.14.76] has joined #lisp 20:52:29 -!- rainbyte16 [~rainbyte@190.191.129.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53:01 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-91-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:32 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:55:26 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 20:56:54 archonix [~none@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 20:57:26 multiple values seem to be treated as an unwanted stepchild because of all the extra ceremony we have to go through to use them. (though I agree it would be a bad idea for anything to be bound to more than one value) 20:59:00 quasiquote has ,@ which does something awfully similar to working with multiple values 20:59:28 Dylan: all the disadvantages of CL, none of the advantages! 20:59:48 Fare: I wouldn't say "none" 21:00:58 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 21:03:01 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:53 top 21:04:58 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.51] has left #lisp 21:05:14 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:49 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:e9d2:2607:e33d:718] has joined #lisp 21:06:38 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:13:27 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:15:48 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:16:56 -!- archonix [~none@78.90.30.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:13 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:27 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ufbjdupfymttbygf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:16 -!- harish [~harish@203.118.14.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:55 leliondj [~leliondj@197.31.224.110] has joined #lisp 21:31:14 -!- leliondj [~leliondj@197.31.224.110] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:16 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:57 francogrex: I liked the original Dylan, before it lost s-expression syntax. 21:37:25 why would you get rid of s-expr? 21:37:28 XD 21:38:24 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:08 -!- sz0 [~sz@208.72.139.54] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 21:40:45 The idea was to make it look more familiar to programmers inexperienced with Lisp. 21:41:03 i was being rhetorical :P 21:43:51 haz2: also things that look different from s-exprs (like all read-table macros) can help the understandability of code because they stand out 21:45:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:38 i've heard that some hardcore lisp fans don't like certain things such as the loop macro and the format string because it's "unlispy", which is why things like iter(ate) were made 21:47:35 pretty sure i read that in PCL actually :P 21:49:21 iterate can also do things that loop can't 21:49:35 i haven't made the leap to using it yet 21:49:45 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 21:50:06 been trying to stick with the standard, should really have a whirl 21:50:14 i have a couple of scripts i could rewrite now i guess 21:50:25 -!- 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[~DataLinkD@101.171.184.56] has joined #lisp 22:11:56 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.228.138] has joined #lisp 22:12:37 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:15:32 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:17:06 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 22:24:23 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:24:38 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:24:40 ok, it's just curiosity really initiated by seeing this recent project: https://github.com/eschulte/pseudo-print then I thought, but why don't they get inspired by the ltd of Norvig, it's actually translating to dylan which is very similar to pseudo-code 22:24:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:24 -!- fortitude 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