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[~user@ABordeaux-651-1-194-13.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:00:18 Good morning everyone! 03:00:18 beach, memo from pjb: I'm not against the idea of working on a CL book. Actually I started something some years ago. The problem as always is the time. 03:00:18 beach, memo from mathrick: how hard would it be to implement an input editor for CLIMatis to allow Climacs to implement C-x C-f and such? 03:00:36 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:41 beach is popular it seems 03:00:58 Heh! Maybe they just want me to work for them. 03:01:07 That is the very definition of popular! 03:01:08 [joking] 03:02:08 beach: I'm thinking of implementing goroutines in common lisp on top of Bordeaux Threads, a channels library, and maybe cl-async. Would that be useful for climatis? 03:02:30 kristof: Good question. I don't know. 03:02:32 I'm not entirely familiar with clim's style and whether or not it lends itself very well to async stuff 03:02:51 beach: Are you familiar with goroutines? They're coroutines, but they communicate via channels. 03:02:54 kristof: It typically uses real threads. 03:03:08 kristof: I have heard of them, but that's it. 03:03:16 Sure, but sometimes it's nice to be able to multiplex a few routines onto the same thread, you know? 03:03:26 And you don't want to spin up a new thread every time 03:03:27 Yes, I understand. 03:03:44 That might be better on a microkernel operating system that spawns lots of threads really fast but on Linux that is not the case 03:04:12 I see, yes. 03:04:21 -!- yano is now known as obamasucks 03:04:43 -!- obamasucks is now known as yano 03:04:43 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:04:48 What is it that takes time spawning a thread in Linux? 03:06:19 beach: It's a big song and dance to create a new thread 03:06:32 Yes, but do you know why? 03:06:59 Not especially! I know that context-switching introduces some latency 03:07:16 and a userspace thread does not have to go through all that 03:07:28 Hmm, yes, very interesting. 03:07:47 Context, as in address-space mostly, right? 03:08:06 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:09:45 kristof: Currently, most of the CPU time taken up by CLIMatis is drawing pixels, but even that is not taking very long, so I don't think there is any need to make threads cheaper there. But I might find a need later. 03:09:51 beach: According to wikipedia "saving and loading registers and memory maps, updating various tables and lists etc." But I wouldn't know :) 03:10:22 Right. So with a SASOS, it would be much faster. 03:10:37 No, because you still need to load stuff into the registers, single address space or not 03:10:55 I know that Singularity, Microsoft's research-operating system, is really good about that kind of stuff 03:11:06 I would look into that eventually 03:11:15 -!- francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:18 Sounds like a good idea, yes. 03:11:26 beach: Or I could read that research paper again in my spare time and see what they're doing and paraphrase it for you :) 03:11:30 Anyway, I've got to go 03:11:36 Nice talking to you! Good luck with climatis 03:11:40 OK, see you later. Thanks. 03:14:30 minion: memo for mathrick: Not very hard, especially since I already have most of what is needed in Climacs. Maybe that's what I will work on next. The more complex question is how it will integrate with the command loop. But I think I know. 03:14:31 Remembered. 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09:57:18 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:57:29 -!- hq [~hq@58.250.96.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:00:17 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@31-146.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:03:27 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:4da9:adde:f16a:ff18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:04:01 beach: at least a part of the cost of threads is syscall, and setting up TLS + new stack. You can avoid the cost of context switch in syscall in a SASOS, but TLS is something that needs setting up anyway 10:04:01 mathrick, memo from beach: Not very hard, especially since I already have most of what is needed in Climacs. Maybe that's what I will work on next. The more complex question is how it will integrate with the command loop. But I think I know. 10:04:28 add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:05:06 beach: AFAIK, Linux threads are mid-weight when it comes to cost, and they're pretty expensive compared to forking, but that's because forking is unusually cheap on Linux (and is really the same operation as spawning a thread, just with different parameters) 10:05:24 OTOH, I'm not particularly interested in optimising for Linux only 10:06:55 pretty expensive compared to forking? 10:08:20 considering that your own statement contradict that 10:08:30 Joel_re [~jr@103.20.64.214] has joined #lisp 10:09:40 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-224.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:11:27 stassats: I mean in relation to other OS, where threads tend to be massively cheaper than forks, in Linux they're cheaper, but not so much 10:11:44 add^_` [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:13:17 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:14:25 mathrick: fork() in general was always pretty cheap on unices. Threads, on linux, differ from forking only in not setting up new AS and few other pointers in process control block 10:14:27 -!- Joel_re [~jr@103.20.64.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:14:41 yeah, I know 10:15:15 although older unices often had threads that were significantly cheaper and significantly different in implementation than forks 10:15:28 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 10:15:39 hence the traditional unix name, LWP, which gdb uses even today 10:15:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 10:15:45 (ie. light-weight process) 10:15:51 mathrick: usually because those were userland threads. Some of the early LWPs were actually Mach threadsd 10:15:54 *threads 10:16:03 and there we go 10:16:15 hahaha 10:16:16 p_l: mach threads in unix userspace? 10:16:19 how does that work? 10:16:20 0 to off-topic in 3 seconds 10:16:44 mathrick: userspace threads (setcontext etc) vs. LWPs implemented on top of Mach (OSF/1, among other things) 10:17:32 beach: re: forking and CLIMatis, is there anything in there that requires forking? It's rare that the cost of forking matters in any way whatsoever in the GUI layer. OTOH, a good spec shouldn't even need forking, and forking behind the user's back is a bad idea for a multitude of reasons, like non-threaded impls and the fact that threads have global implications for what you can do down the road 10:17:55 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:18:07 add the fact that forking with GUI is essentially impossible in NT 10:18:11 OSF/1, just what i need to worry about 10:18:43 p_l: and Cocoa. It actually forbids anything but the originally spawned thread from touching the GUI 10:18:51 -!- tianyu [~user@111.161.9.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:19:00 for whatever stupid reason the OS might have to care about which thread it talks to 10:19:38 mathrick: yes, but you can still fork() and reset the GUI. Win32 afaik barfs on fork(). 10:20:00 well that's because fork() is not a windows operation 10:20:37 mathrick: not really, but that would be another loong OT 10:20:51 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:21:01 (NT has fork() equivalent, Win32 barfs due to having two processes with certain structures shared etc.) 10:21:02 p_l: and if you fork your multi-threaded, GUI-touching process and do anything else than exec(), you've just lost big time anyway 10:21:26 ask Fare about forking multi-threaded CCL 10:21:45 (he actually forked CCL code for ITA to be able to fork() safely) 10:22:04 is common-lisp.net down? 10:22:38 it doesn't seem to be up in any case 10:22:43 it won't load for me 10:22:55 Drat. 10:24:23 mathrick: Thanks for info on threads. No nothing in CLIMatis needs forking. The typical CLIM II implementation used one thread for distributing events and then one thread per application. But I think that's it. 10:25:31 Shinmera: it's just another phase of the "migration", first, get used to half-broken functionality, next, shut it down completely 10:26:07 Hrm, alright. I guess I'll have to look up the documentation locally. 10:26:23 and only the web server seems to be down 10:26:25 minion: version 10:26:25 This is the minion bot, running on a X86-64 (QEMU Virtual CPU version 1.0) and running under SBCL 1.1.6. 10:26:27 mathrick: Implementing file-name prompting in Second Climacs is going to take a little bit longer than I had hoped, because it ties into the entire presentation-type system, and I haven't decided how much of that to keep from CLIM II, but it is looking more and more like I would want pretty much the entire thing. 10:26:33 the bots are still running 10:30:55 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:23 <|3b|> stassats: at least there seems to be some activity towards someone actually working on finishing/fixing it again 10:36:14 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:40 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-67-244-80-242.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:44:39 woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has joined #lisp 10:50:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:52:35 -!- protist [~protist@72.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:53:10 When I parse a json file with YASON, type-of of a string value returns (AND (VECTOR CHARACTER 20) (NOT SIMPLE-ARRAY)) . Is there any way to change it to parse to a SIMPLE-ARRAY? 10:53:50 you can rewrite it, yes 10:55:45 <|3b|> or find an implementation where adjustable arrays are SIMPLE-ARRAYs 10:56:40 *|3b|* wouldn't be surprised if there are none though, so might have to write your own 10:58:09 beach: oh, I see 10:58:19 cl-json seems to parse to a SIMPLE-ARRAY 10:59:16 mathrick: No big deal. At some point it was inevitable to figure out how tbmoore did it and how Scott intended for it to be implemented. 11:00:27 mathrick: Luckily, I can invite tbmoore for lunch and get the information straight from the horse's mouth. 11:00:31 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:18 beach: heh 11:01:47 tbmoore did presentations in McCLIM? 11:01:55 Yes he did. 11:02:35 And I remember Scott telling him that that was the way he intended for it to be done, but that the commercial implementations of the MOP were not mature enough when commercial CLIM was written. 11:03:06 So McCLIM very likely has the best implementation of presentation types of all CLIM implementations. 11:03:17 it's kinda scary to know that your GUI requires mature MOP support 11:03:34 A bit yeah. 11:03:42 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.161.70] has joined #lisp 11:03:49 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.161.70] has left #lisp 11:03:54 But if you look at the CLIM II specification, the presentation type system is fairly complex. 11:04:05 mhm, that's exactly what I haven't done 11:04:18 No rush. 11:05:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:05:24 beach: btw, have you ever tried CONTeXT? 11:05:39 mathrick: Not that I can remember :) What is it? 11:05:55 I was meaning to try it last time I needed LaTeX, but the last big time happened to be my thesis, and I kinda didn't want to mess with that :) 11:06:10 it's a different TeX macro system, rather radically opposed to what LaTeX does 11:06:20 Oh, interesting. 11:06:42 I might look at that. 11:07:20 rather than have a complex system of packages with entirely opaque implementations, and then complex packages overriding those packages, CONTeXT rather goes towards giving you a lot of presentational tools, and plumbing to make it very easy to build semantic commands on top of that 11:07:22 Speaking of which, I saw that Didier Verna wrote an article in which he suggested re-implementing TeX in CL. 11:07:33 yeah, I was thinking of that too 11:07:42 just dump the TeX part too 11:07:51 mathrick: OK, I think I might have a look at CONTeXT some day. 11:07:58 because TeX is a horribly lousy language and system for doing anything resembling programming 11:08:06 Indeed. 11:08:47 And it's probably not such a good idea to have the full power of a programming language at the global level of a document. 11:08:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 11:08:58 yea 11:09:00 ... because then, essentially no incremental processing is possible. 11:09:25 good point 11:09:44 It looks to me like PDF was created when incremental processing was needed and PostScript couldn't do it. 11:09:55 So we need something similar in TeX land. 11:10:19 really? I never noticed anything particularly incremental about PDF 11:10:23 turing complete document writing markup languages? 11:10:26 certainly nothing in modern PDF 11:10:50 the things adobe does to PDF nowadays are neither portable, nor particularly document-y 11:10:56 mathrick: Oh, I read the spec, and I don't think any global state can be modified in one page and be visible in other pages. 11:11:22 mathrick: In fact, the PDF spec encourages loaders to load a page at a time. 11:11:32 http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/41918/how-to-search-for-information-about-context-in-search-engines <-- haha, I googled something completely different, but this is a very relevant hit 11:11:35 mathrick: That would not be possible in PostScript. 11:11:46 ah 11:12:09 beach: well, today PDF technically includes JS and 3D display and scripting and stuff 11:12:15 so those parts break that model 11:12:22 but then, sane people mostly ignore those parts 11:12:55 mathrick: I don't know, but I am betting they work on a page-by-page basis. 11:13:21 I might be wrong of course. 11:14:23 Well, it couldn't be hard to ditch TeX in favor of something written in CL. I already did for Metafont :) 11:15:03 ... and in the process I found errors in the Metafont book. 11:15:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-139.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 That, of course, was to be expected because he used different grammars in the book and in the implementation, so the ones in the book were never formally verified. 11:16:22 *beach* now remembers that he promised Knuth to send a bug report. :( 11:17:29 Anyway, replacing TeX will have to come after CLIMatis, Second Climacs, SICL, and a dozen or so books. 11:17:48 oh, and LispOS! :) 11:17:51 -!- blaz_ [~blaz@BSN-143-163-235.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:12 *beach* is thinking of calling it SoCLOSe. :) 11:19:02 heheh 11:19:31 beach: I actually poked Fare (I think?) for some of his typesetting / document formatting work 11:20:00 Fare did that stuff? I didn't know. 11:20:04 like http://quickdocs.org/exscribe/ 11:20:30 the project lives on c-l.net technically, but since that's down... 11:20:43 Joel_re [~jr@110.226.11.252] has joined #lisp 11:20:54 beach: he said exscribe is moribund, but what is there works well for generating HTML (which is what he needed) 11:21:53 I see. 11:22:03 What does the input resemble? 11:22:28 unsure :) 11:22:36 well, it's supposed to resemble Scribe 11:22:47 I see. 11:22:52 http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Manuel.Serrano/scribe/ 11:24:07 and seemingly http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Skribe/ 11:25:11 beach: "logiciel" is the frenchie term for "programme", ain't it? 11:25:29 more like "software". 11:25:51 ah 11:25:57 American English "program" in French is "programme". 11:26:53 I see 11:27:28 So, more and more I think it is a bad idea to start thinking about the input as a sequence of bytes. 11:27:45 beach: so it seems exscribe has pluggable syntaxes, although the only extant one is scribe/skribe/scribble 11:27:50 http://www.cliki.net/scribble 11:27:55 .. because that's just what people disagree on, and it is very hard to get something acceptable anyway. 11:28:22 you mean where, in document preparation, or in CLIMatis? 11:28:47 Document preparation, but it is more general than that. 11:28:54 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B2CBF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:29:19 I would be in favor of defining the input as a structure of CLOS class instances. 11:29:21 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:40 Then one could get started with doing interesting stuff without nailing the input format. 11:29:55 And people could use a different format if they like (since that is what people disagree on). 11:30:07 mhm 11:30:21 Furthermore, if the in-core format is defined from the start, it would be easy to write compatible processors for it. 11:31:08 And for the lazy ones (like me), the file format could just be a graph dump the way I did it for Gsharp (and many other programs). 11:31:08 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:31:41 I was just using PRINT and READ with a single reader macro. 11:33:24 I suggested this to hitecnologys a week or so ago. I would like to use it for online documentation and such. 11:34:10 that makes it annoying to input new things though 11:34:16 but sure, it's a method 11:34:31 You would have to write a CLIM3 application to do it :) 11:34:48 Actually CLIM II would do fine as well. 11:34:50 -!- woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:35:03 beach: you mean this lisp version of google docs thing? 11:35:25 hitecnologys: Yes, but I think I digressed form Google docs quite a bit. :) 11:35:49 beach: "I use Exscribe with Scribble syntax, but it is trivial to translate from your usual SEXP syntax, and there is a builtin mechanism to allow for arbitrary text filters (so you could embed a Markdown syntax within Exscribe documents)." 11:36:16 beach: yeah, I remember. I started working on it but I haven't really made any progress yet. 11:36:16 gdocs are a poor platform to base any lisp on 11:36:24 mathrick: Seems like a step in that direction. 11:36:52 hitecnologys: I didn't mean to suggest you should be working on it. :) 11:38:47 beach: I'm mostly doing this for that twilightandia thing I'm working on. 11:39:00 mathrick: I am thinking that encoding the basic LaTeX structure as a CLOS graph would be very easy. There would be sections, paragraphs, itemized lists, and such. 11:39:14 hitecnologys: Yes, I see. 11:40:53 beach: the thing is, LaTeX is not necessarily the best structure to describe "a document" of arbitrary type. LaTeX is what it is mostly as an accident of history and being built on top of TeX, and I honestly dunno what the right level of abstraction is to adopt as the basic building block 11:41:38 You are probably right. 11:42:03 mathrick: have you seen ConTeXt? 11:42:30 p_l: it started with me asking beach if he knew CONTeXT :) 11:42:50 hahaha 11:43:45 vydd [~vydd@unaffiliated/vydd] has joined #lisp 11:45:15 Poenikatu [~Poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 11:46:37 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:48:20 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:59 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 11:53:48 Tanami [~carnage@ppp118-210-240-51.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:57 -!- Poenikatu [~Poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:13 chenjf [~chenjf@14.209.99.145] has 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closed the connection] 14:19:00 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 14:19:26 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 14:21:57 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:24:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:03 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 14:26:55 -!- woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:54 -!- scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:53 scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:35:52 *beach* contemplates how to simplify CLIM II presentation types. 14:36:36 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 14:37:51 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:56 uhhuh 14:38:01 hello beach 14:38:09 Hi oleo. 14:38:23 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 14:38:33 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:40:13 oleo: I will get to your stuff eventually. 14:40:40 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-153-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:41:22 oleo: Are you still doing CLIM stuff? 14:41:31 still yes 14:42:01 oleo: Today I found a function in McCLIM that is nowhere used and that is not part of the spec :( 14:42:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42:35 McCLIM could definitely use a cleanup. 14:43:27 It is interesting though (and maybe I already said this), that the more I think about and implement CLIM3, the more I understand about the CLIM II spec. 14:44:48 add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 -!- harish [~harish@124.197.66.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:46:22 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:53:21 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:52 harish [~harish@124.197.66.86] has joined #lisp 14:58:20 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-153-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:24 beach: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/FAQ#Can_I_change_to_LaTeX.E2.80.99s_Computer_Modern_font.3F <-- TeX is ridiculous in all incarnations 14:59:18 Heh! Yes. 15:00:22 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 15:00:54 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 Knuth is a great theoretician, and the theoreticians think that he is a great programmer too. 15:01:51 francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has joined #lisp 15:02:22 beach: the good part is that he doesn't shy from practice in ways that bring worst "ivory tower" epithets to mind, like some :) 15:02:56 yeah, but his practical code tends to be practical in the worst possible way 15:03:01 like hardcoding things because why not 15:03:04 I have been using win32ole library to write MS WORD doc automatically from lisp. But I am sick for plowing through the shitty poorly documented MS OLE docs 15:03:10 p_l: Sure, that's true. And he did what he did at a time when that behavior was common and even encouraged. 15:03:26 has anyone experienced with an easier method? 15:03:54 cnl_ [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:32 mathrick: some of his code comes from rather resource constrained times. And he is getting on years, without finishing his promised magnum opus while already being on second edition of it! ;) 15:05:52 -!- cnl [~pony@212.26.249.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:05 p_l: What is very annoying though is to run into some of those constraints in 2013, like a limited number of tab stops in some environments. Though that might be a LaTeX problem, I suppose. 15:12:16 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:29 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 15:13:03 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:13:15 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:50 beach: is it reproducible with luatex/xelatex? 15:14:03 p_l: No idea. 15:14:34 p_l: What I meant to say before was that at the time Knuth did TeX, this "I am a proud theoretician" behavior was common and encouraged. When I was a grad student, some fellow students, when asked after a presentation what their result might be useful for, would proudly declare "absolutely nothing, I hope". 15:15:08 beach: because those two implementations have more significant rewrites of the original engine, thus might have avoided constants that could have snook in since the ancient Pascal code 15:15:10 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:15:16 beach: ... that's awful 15:15:49 p_l: OK, if I run into such a limitation, I will try those. Thanks for the tip. 15:15:58 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 *p_l* actually thinks of including a remark about "ivory tower"-style of certain issues in an assessment 15:16:26 What kind of assessment? 15:17:13 beach: peer2peer protocol. we were supposed to use a graphical language to document the protocol. There's barely any tools, mostly some conference papers, official site for the language appears to be partially taken over by spammers, etc. 15:17:49 p_l: was "snook" intentional? 15:18:23 mathrick: yes. What's wrong with it? I was for some reason unsure whether to use "snook" or "sneaked" 15:18:25 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 p_l: Sounds pretty bad! 15:18:36 snuck :) 15:18:55 beach: I would be less annoyed if there appeared to be at least a better set of stencils or something 15:19:05 p_l: "snuck" or "sneaked" :) 15:19:23 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 heh 15:19:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 15:19:49 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50bce.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:19:52 sneaked is the actual "proper" form, but snuck has been formed by analogy with stuck and is widespread enough to be accepted 15:20:27 mathrick: You, who like to point out things like that, should learn the difference between "if" and "whether". As in: "it started with me asking beach WHETHER he knew CONTeXT". :) 15:20:45 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sneak#Usage_notes 15:20:54 beach: true 15:20:59 beach: the language in question, btw, is AUML, aka UML Extensions for Agents 15:21:01 -!- vydd [~vydd@unaffiliated/vydd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:20 graphical languages which require tools that don't exist are the best thing 15:21:29 especially when they're a dialect of UML 15:21:33 p_l: Wow, it is something that I would avoid myself, but I guess you don't have a choice. 15:21:47 I always suspect "UML" stands for "utterly meaningless" 15:22:51 or Ugly Manual Labour 15:22:53 mathrick: depends. There are good parts (in UML2, that is). The annoying part is that AUML appears to be extending them and there seems to be little tooling support for even drawing it 15:23:13 mathrick: Though when negotiating with a Swedish publishing house about a book, I was told my language was "archaic". :) 15:23:22 heh 15:23:31 that will teach you to speak skånska 15:23:50 Well, it was Studentlitteratur, which is located in Lund. 15:24:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:24:12 heh 15:24:13 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:47 beach: is it because you no longer keep up with Swedish as she is spoke, being an expat and all? 15:24:59 mathrick: Yes, I think so. 15:25:08 fascinating! 15:25:16 I didn't think it could happen so rapidly 15:25:43 mathrick: Rapidly? A few years ago I celebrated having lived longer outside than inside Sweden. 15:26:04 mathrick: And I hardly ever use Swedish anymore. 15:26:12 it's still only half a lifetime 15:26:14 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50bce.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:16 which is rapid 15:26:31 mathrick: No, not at all. Language evolves a lot faster than one might think. 15:26:32 mathrick: I have been using english internally so much that I have sometimes trouble imagining explaining something in polish 15:26:55 I spent what, 4.5 year in Scotland? 15:26:58 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:02 p_l: same. My most shameful low was when I had to look up what "thigh" was called in Polish by the way of a dictionary 15:27:11 mathrick: After a 2-year absence, going back to a place, I notice a huge difference in usage. 15:27:20 |JRG| [c209f2f0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.9.242.240] has joined #lisp 15:27:49 mathrick: It happens to me all the time. I use my French->Swedish and English->Swedish dictionaries when I write email and books in Swedish. 15:28:00 beach: yes, that's why I'm fascinated, and wanted to ask that too. So it's not just that Swedes think your language is archaic, but you also think theirs is new-fangled? :) 15:29:06 beach: my Danish actually started doing that to my English now. It's distressing when I have to go through two hops before I can remember what something is called in Polish 15:29:08 mathrick: I am not a linguistic prescriptionist. I find every new fad funny (at least), and often great. 15:29:40 I was being facetious. By that I meant that you do notice their language changing and odd to you, right? 15:29:56 Absolutely. 15:30:00 Totally weird. 15:30:33 mathrick: You had better get used to it and stop getting distressed. 15:30:39 I keep up with Polish enough that it mostly sounds alright to me, although I'm always assailed by the unrelenting idiocy of marketingspeak each time I actually visit Poland 15:30:59 Heh, must be an international phenomenon. 15:31:34 beach: oh I am used to it. It still distresses me. Also it's high time to pick up some new languages 15:31:45 I've been stuck with my 3.5 combo for way too long now 15:31:48 *beach* worries that stassats will soon point out that we are off-topic. 15:32:06 he left, that's why he's not saying anything 15:32:10 lol 15:32:13 although he monitors the logs AFAIK 15:32:19 mathrick: My Vietnamese is getting quite good. :) 15:32:28 good to know 15:32:37 beach: how do you get the stream-character-width of :standard-output in mcclim ? 15:32:45 hualet_deepin [~user@122.190.66.120] has joined #lisp 15:32:51 I need to pick up my japanese again. Then French. I don't think I'm picking German again xD 15:33:01 are you still visiting .vn regularly? You mentioned mostly abandoning the plans to reside there permanently I think? 15:33:17 oleo: I have no idea from memory. Would you like me to search for it? 15:33:18 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:29 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:33:35 mathrick: Yes, I haven't been there for a few years. 15:34:52 mathrick: But I still take lessons via the web with a native speaker. 15:34:57 ah 15:35:38 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36:41 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@31-146.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:27 OK, so if TeX was written with many constraints that no longer exists, and with a programming language that didn't have the features that #lisp participants are familiar with, and if Knuth didn't spend more than a few years to write it, then it seems fair to assume that a modern seasoned Lisper could do a better job in a few months. 15:38:47 *beach* thinks. 15:39:09 assuming that said lisper is familiar with the constraints and requirements and prior art of document processing 15:39:24 beach: especially if you took the algorithms from TeX, and studied typography and such 15:39:31 mathrick: There is that, yes. 15:39:47 p_l: Yes, and those algorithms are fairly well documented. 15:40:22 beach: something approaching XSL-FO + XSLT seems like a reasonable approach for a modern restart 15:40:27 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:40:30 Studying typography might take a few months too. I think I can compare it to my investment in music engraving for Gsharp. 15:40:32 a significant part of (La)TeX stronghold is that while it has many, many warts, the basic output still outperforms majority of competition without major increase in typesetting skill 15:40:38 TeX is good for math, but unfortunately, TeX is good for math 15:40:50 and foregoes everything that isn't math as she is typeset according to TeX 15:41:22 p_l: I totally agree. 15:42:12 mathrick: I am not going to read up on XSL-FO + XSLT right now, but I feel that at some point I should. 15:42:13 mathrick: XSLT and XSL-FO is the hell of modern automated document processing 15:42:41 the problem with LaTeX, and TeX at the same time, is that it's entirely opaque, and has only two levels: the LaTeX in the entirety of its complex interdependencies, and the raw TeX with bizarre and arcane limitations nobody quite understands 15:42:42 *beach* sees a debate forming. 15:42:51 p_l: oh? Elaborate 15:43:33 by XSL-FO + XSLT, I meant looking at it as a pipeline from the very beginning, instead of making it inescapably opaque as in LaTeX 15:43:38 mathrick: they don't provide much outside of transformations, so you have to either implement equivalent of ConTeXt in XSL-FO, or have the transformations produce such output 15:44:00 the results, at least the ones I had encountered, were less than stellar 15:44:06 p_l: right, that's where defining a standard set of tooling at multiple levels would come in 15:44:32 as for pipeline approach, that's the origin of Unix's commercial use 15:44:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:02 mathrick: also, I might be prejudiced, had to deal with Cocoon recently :) 15:45:03 it's a reasonable approach to things! Just not as a flat stream of ASCII bytes 15:45:13 oh, the apache thing? 15:45:15 yes 15:45:21 which is kinda what you're talking about 15:45:39 I think you might be more cross at XML + Apache combo than the basic idea behind XSL-FO + XSLT 15:45:56 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:46:00 I guess a bit of my opposition to XML-based approach is that it opens avenues to inevitable 2nd Normal Form poisoning 15:46:00 remember that XSLT outgrew from from SGML + DSSSL, which was a Lisp dialect 15:46:29 mathrick: I have less against XML and XSLT itself as much as how the industry inevitable mangles them 15:47:38 read "2nd Normal Form XML", which is abomination that should be eradicated with thermonuclear fire delivered at near-lightspeed 15:47:40 yes, that's why you need to design the tooling in a way that does a lot of common things right upfront so that there's less room for people to invent bad solutions 15:48:10 p_l: for example, XSLT was hobbled for many years by its absolutely abysmal syntax and semantics (like lack of variables) 15:48:43 which resulted in XSLT-XSLT, and people writing their XSLT in CPS more or less 15:48:44 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:48:53 brb - running for more coffee 15:49:03 (before they close the cafe at library) 15:49:10 hehe 15:49:42 Hmm, I thought Lispers would be opposed to pipelines because they unreasonably impose an order, which Lisp macros liberate us from. 15:49:48 p_l: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/normalForms.html <-- you mean that? 15:50:10 -!- hualet_deepin [~user@122.190.66.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:32 In fact, that is one of the main reasons I use when I teach embedded languages and an implementation method for DSLs. You don't have to worry about an order. 15:50:40 beach: pipelines are good in domains, because they restrict the problem you run into otherwise, ie. having the full power at the global level of the document prevents any processing other than executing the entire document 15:50:58 also, pipeline in a very conceptual sense now 15:51:07 mathrick: But it makes it impossible to mix 2 or more DSLs. 15:51:20 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:46 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 15:51:52 woudshoo [~user@2001:981:e8d:1:baf6:b1ff:fe16:58e5] has joined #lisp 15:52:09 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:53:02 beach: not necessarily, if your "pipeline" consists of layers that filter down until you're at the layout/presentation unit level. It's more about restricting the ability of lower layers to call into and depend upon higher levels, and seeing the whole typesetting process as a series of transformation until you get primitives which are atomic to the given implementation. 15:53:28 *beach* would not call that "pipeline" then. 15:53:41 I don't have a much better term right away 15:54:15 mathrick: When I think of "pipeline" I see a processor A preceding a processor B, and when B is done, A is never again consulted. 15:55:10 mathrick: And that kind of order makes it impossible to mix several DSLs, forcing the user to abstain from one when using another. 15:55:14 beach: still, the important part is thinking of it as transformations from higher to lower level, and being able to drop a level without when necessary going all the way down to the pixels. Something that's impossible in LaTeX say, because there's no blocks LaTeX is built on. It's all fiddling directly with TeX's "pixels" 15:55:48 so changing the font becomes a FAQ with "impossible" as the answer 15:56:29 I hear what you are saying, but I don't understand it deeply enough to have an educated opinion. 15:57:34 I don't understand the problems I might be setting myself up for in my understanding completely either, but I know at least some unfixable problems that result in (La)TeX 15:57:56 Yes, that much I understand :) 15:58:37 But it is entirely possible that the problem is not absence of a pipeline, and that the solution is not to introduce one. 15:59:17 [in my mind, I should add] 15:59:24 might be, but document preparation is really a process of transforming things into other things depending on some other requirements, so it has to be modelled at some point or other 16:00:12 -!- lc0dd0cl2 is now known as lc0dd0cl 16:00:12 Yes, but the word "pipeline" makes me nervous because of the temptation to introduce an order. 16:00:24 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 16:00:40 beach: the DSLs should sorta go away after you drop into a lower layer, much like you can mix macros, but they all ultimately compile down to the common substrate of CL primitives and the implementation never needs to consult macros when it's resolving VOPs into machine code 16:01:07 so DSLs at the same level can be mixed and matched 16:01:13 OK. 16:01:23 but they need to result in something that's meaningful to the lower layer 16:01:30 back 16:01:33 *beach* feels less nervous now. 16:01:55 isBEKaml [~user@unaffiliated/isbekaml] has joined #lisp 16:01:56 p_l: Did you find your coffee? 16:02:10 yes 16:02:28 mathrick: 2nd normal form generally refers to all that don't use attributes 16:02:38 oh 16:02:47 beach: double espresso, lots of sugar and milk :) 16:03:09 beach: I think it will practically result in a forest, where you choose one path in any given scenario, and one most likely to split at the very beginning (any number of entrances by varied input syntaxes) and very end (any number of exits by varied output formats and their corresponding idea of "primitives") 16:03:20 p_l: Sounds delicious (unless it came out of a machine). 16:03:44 some will bail out sooner (HTML where "text" or "paragraph" is already a primitive), some later (screen, where pixels are the only atomic unit) 16:03:50 and as for organization to prevent it, I propose a mercenary fund that dispatches a bloodthirsty mercenary unit to anyone that ends up generating XML by generating the schema from a class in some language 16:03:56 heh 16:04:26 p_l: espresso with lots of sugar and milk has a name, "cappuccino" :) 16:04:35 beach: half-so - the cafe at library was forced to switch to more integrated machines because of complaints about noise, but it's not a complete shit-quality automat 16:04:37 I could use a cappuccino now 16:04:53 mathrick: cappuccino refers to frothed milk 16:05:04 they should've just soundproofed the cafe 16:05:16 mathrick: let's say it would be... hard to do. 16:05:26 some weird design ideas that ended up in the new library 16:05:28 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7991.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:31 then it was badly designed methinks 16:05:41 Queen Mother's Library was much, much more quiet 16:05:43 also coffee-making noises are soothing :) 16:06:19 mathrick: well, the upper-class of psychology, CS and few other degrees doesn't complain, because we have top floor, where barely any noise reaches :) 16:06:26 p_l: I know it's frothed, but if you want espresso with milk, you should be getting cappuccino. It's how it's properly defined 16:06:41 mathrick: this is closer to what would be called flat white 16:06:45 where do you study? 16:06:53 mathrick: University of Aberdeen, Scotland 16:07:15 "flat white" sounds like what they said in Kiwiland when I lived there. 16:07:17 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:07:38 beach: well, it definitely sounds better than the origin of "americano" :> 16:08:04 Indeed. 16:08:25 -!- isBEKaml [~user@unaffiliated/isbekaml] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:37 p_l: Do they also say "short black" (I think that's what they used in Wellington). 16:08:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:50 nope, haven't heard that here 16:08:56 Hmm. OK. 16:09:24 *beach* might be misremembering. 16:09:39 *p_l* has a history of astonishing the baristas at uni. For example by asking for "quad" espresso :D 16:09:46 beach: is that like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ristretto ? 16:09:46 heh. 16:10:14 beach: I was visibly swaying on my legs when ordering, too :) 16:10:14 mathrick: Looks right. 16:10:35 Hydan [~qicruser@ip-89-103-110-16.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:10:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.242.95] has joined #lisp 16:10:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.242.95] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:13:15 I wonder if some more places than ITA used "fork servers" with Lisp 16:14:04 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:14:24 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9FF8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:39 *p_l* was sort-of reminded of his old lisp startup idea 16:16:16 So here is a question: I know many #lisp members are smart and knowledgeable and many of them have good ideas and little time. Furthermore, we have many participants who are newbies or less experienced who would presumably want to be taken under the wings of one of the more experienced ones. Why can't we make this a win-win thing where newbies write code for those ideas in exchange for advice and supervision? 16:18:11 Perhaps there is a meta-structure to invent here. 16:18:20 beach: the idea in general sounds great. the question is, wouldn't the supervision take just as much time if not more? Also, one would need to organize it, even if informally, and ensure newbies aren't mistreated 16:18:41 Yes, I understand the challenges. 16:18:47 beach: I think we're hitting the old problem of herding Lispers :) 16:19:06 But, many people here, like stassats and pjb spend a lot of time answering questions anyway. 16:19:08 mathrick: and the essence that cat's might be easier to herd? :) 16:19:21 *cats 16:19:36 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 16:20:14 Beginners either become smart and knowledgeable and then want to pursue their own ideas, or their attention wanders to something else, or they lack talent. But there may be an interval of time in that progression when that idea would work. I think what you've described is the concept of "school". 16:20:27 p_l: Also, there is the "teacher amplification" effect. If you always do it yourself, you will always do it yourself (!). If you teach someone to do it, you might get "amplified". 16:20:46 k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:20:49 LiamH: Thanks! :) 16:21:24 Google summer of code is probably the best realization of that idea. 16:21:26 beach: how much of your code is in a working state ? 16:21:42 LiamH: Yes, maybe so. 16:21:44 beach: i tried to load it via asdf, and it barfed at spla-tree:splay 16:22:02 oleo: What project? I have so many! 16:22:15 spla-tree is a typo. That should not have passed. 16:22:18 beach: CLIMatis 16:22:35 beach: Have you tried to become a mentor for SoC? 16:22:42 beach: i meant at splay-tree:splay node 16:23:04 oleo: Yes, sorry, that's a recent thing where CLIMatis requires splay-tree that is currently only in Climacs. 16:23:05 beach: tells me splay-tree package does not exist..... 16:23:12 :( 16:23:17 oleo: Sorry about that. 16:23:36 so it's not a typo ? 16:23:42 no 16:23:55 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:23:57 oleo: I never think anyone is interested at this point, so I don't try to make it easy to use for others after every commit. 16:24:00 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:24:18 oleo: I need to make splay-tree a different system, but I don't know where to put it then. :( 16:25:32 oleo: The other BIG problem I have is that I CAN NOT make sense of the ASDF documentation, so I have no idea how to configure it. 16:25:53 duh, i don't find anything related to splay-tree in climacs... 16:25:57 is that new ? 16:26:03 Second Climacs 16:26:08 on GitHub 16:26:10 ah 16:26:37 oleo: I generally recommend against attempting to use it unless you are willing to try to understand what I meant as oppose to what I did. :) 16:26:55 oleo: Some applications are broken for instance. 16:27:20 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c014:3d0:18fa:314] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:08 majyk [~majyk@pool-96-255-166-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:28 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c014:3d0:18fa:314] has joined #lisp 16:31:05 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:31:25 http://matthias.benkard.de/journal/110 16:31:33 "Clueless" and "Calendar" should work though. 16:32:57 Poenikatu [~Poenikatu@host-89-241-78-144.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:57 -!- Poenikatu [~Poenikatu@host-89-241-78-144.as13285.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:32:57 Poenikatu [~Poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 16:33:53 -!- scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:22 mathrick: This person sounds like the perfect example of someone who is "performance oriented" according to my article. 16:37:18 beach: it's a parody 16:37:25 *beach* just realized it. 16:37:40 I realised when he started with "Web-ready" 16:37:48 web-ready means you're either joking or clueless 16:38:07 There are lots of clueless people out there though, and the blog too. 16:38:27 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 yes, I know 16:39:00 mathrick: One hint though: I usually don't consult URLs typed at random in #lisp unless there is at least a few words telling what it is. I made an exception because I know that you wouldn't give us any old crap. 16:39:16 ah 16:39:55 right, I actually considered describing it somehow, but then I guess I thought it was recent enough compared to the herding Lispers discussion that it'd be obvious? 16:40:19 it might've been more obvious to me, since I was googling for related topics when I found it 16:40:31 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:46 Sure, just saying... 16:41:13 yeah, you're right about it 16:41:49 It's actually pretty funny now that I am really reading it. 16:42:50 indeed 16:43:16 I actually thought the opening was very strong, with "you can't represent XML with a list and that's all you got" 16:43:36 I especially like the complaints about datastructures. Doubly so, when I'm preparing to write REXX code that deals with Web ;) 16:45:02 hahaha 16:45:11 REXX is one of those things I hear sometimes but I have absolutely no clue about 16:45:37 Yes, or when you think about all those people who need to convert their data structures to relations, which after all are based on what Fortran IV had. 16:46:56 oleo: to make it funnier, the whole stack includes assembly language programs (probably) 16:47:18 what I do hope is that there are no binary-only patches... 16:48:46 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:49:27 -!- majyk [~majyk@pool-96-255-166-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:49:49 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:04 p_l: why are you documenting a REXX web stack with graphical UML dialects lacking tools 16:51:07 that is madness 16:51:16 mathrick: no, those are two different things 16:51:21 the REXX stuff is actually for fun 16:51:42 (IBM's Mainframe Challenge) 16:51:47 then where do binary-only patches and assembly come in? 16:52:51 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 16:52:55 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-67-244-80-242.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:53:14 mathrick: in the mainframe challenge. There simply *has* to be some assembly involved in the CICS side 16:53:25 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:53:31 and binary-only patches is something that happens on Mainframes. 16:53:36 mhm 16:53:41 I'm reading that now 16:53:43 these days less so 16:54:10 it actually looks fun, but I really cannot afford tying myself up with random fun-looking things any more than I already do 16:54:32 mathrick: yeah. 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pw_ [~user@95-91-241-52-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 20:38:57 Hello. How can i draw xbm using clx? 20:42:12 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:24 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:46 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:50:50 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 20:53:25 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.37.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:54 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:33 xbm ? 21:02:27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_BitMap 21:03:35 -!- davazp [~user@12.Red-83-55-79.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:43 -!- lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:03 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 21:04:25 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@219.119.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:06:16 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has 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has joined #lisp 22:21:13 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 22:21:28 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-59-17.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:42 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 22:24:26 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:29:33 k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:30:23 -!- Absalom [~Absalom@bro29-1-82-245-181-150.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:47 mdev [mdev@unaffiliated/mdev] has joined #lisp 22:31:14 what's common lisp used most for these days? 22:32:09 mostly web i think... 22:32:13 must be so... 22:32:14 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:28 does it have a good web library? 22:32:35 there are some.... 22:32:44 otherwise it's used in diverse fields.... 22:33:04 does common lisp compile to native? 22:33:10 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:33:25 i saw a fingerprint scanner ....run by lisp soft. 22:33:27 lol 22:33:56 some lisp implementations compile to native code 22:34:31 so there's no primary common list implementation like for every other language? for c usually gcc, for php the c compiled one, etc... 22:34:47 no, there's many implementations.... 22:35:01 lisp is a family of differing implementations.... 22:35:37 at least common-lisp, you can count some others to it or not.... 22:35:46 sounds fractored 22:35:56 diversified.... 22:36:06 fractioned 22:36:10 split 22:36:17 what implementation do you use? and having so many implementations means they're not working together most likely 22:36:22 but the spec is the same..... 22:36:24 so the backend library/api not as rich as it could 22:36:27 be 22:37:19 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 22:37:20 mdev: actually, there is gcc and clang. 22:38:36 mdev: and among the open source cl compilers it's mostly sbcl or clozure cl, and both compile to native. Sbcl generates very good machine code. 22:39:09 Can anyone comment on clisp's jit compilation mode and if it's mature, yet? It seems like it was first implemented in 2008 22:39:25 And whether the JIT compilation allows for optimizaitons that can't be done on something like SBCL 22:39:42 (this was partially prompted by prxq's answer) 22:40:42 http://www.findinglisp.com/blog/2008/09/php-vs-lisp-unfortunately-its-true.html 22:40:51 mdev: there is a small but fine community doing numerical computations with sbcl 22:41:00 he says that lisp lacks compeitive edge, as in libraries barely exist and documentation bad 22:41:20 not a good thing, not a "feature" the language is ancient no reason it shouldn't have a rich backend and clean docs 22:41:52 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:42:09 that was 2008. 22:44:02 "libraries barely exist" really does not reflect my experience. 22:44:41 at least not my recent experience. 22:44:51 *jackdaniel* is a freshie and see lots of libraries. (lack of documentation is a fact tho) 22:45:07 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@31-146.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:45:18 i'm trouble even finding a compiler at this point common-lisp.net/ 22:45:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:45:21 doesn't seem to have one 22:45:35 I usually end up seeing TOO many libraries, actually 22:45:43 do we really want to listen to someone who can't spell "parentheses"? 22:45:45 mdev: common-lisp.net at the moment is a wreck. 22:45:55 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:46:01 if you want a compiler use sbcl. 22:46:03 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.226] has joined #lisp 22:46:04 10 different libraries to do the same thing and half are underdeveloped and abandoned and forks of each other and you can never, ever tell that from a cursory glance at Cliki 22:46:06 Did GCL compile to C, or am I misremembering? 22:46:18 it still does 22:46:30 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-9.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:38 ah 22:46:41 for arm platforms i recommend ecl 22:46:44 clisp works too 22:47:17 samskulls: gcl yes, but it hasn't catched full standard, ecl did and it compiles to c 22:47:24 What would be really nice would be for someone to develop a content management system for cliki or common-lisp.net so that people who don't want to develop nice project pages for their library have a very good default one with sane features; that should include links to previous versions, a blog, a link to documentation, etc. 22:47:43 jackdaniel: yeah, I figured GCL wasn't a great choice. 22:47:48 that way, at a glance, someone can see "oh, huh, the last blog post was in 1999. And no release since 2003." 22:47:54 kristof: there is nobody around to stop you 22:47:57 :-) 22:48:03 prxq: You know, that would be a fun project :) 22:48:22 prxq: Are the common-lisp.net and cliki maintainers easily accessible people? 22:48:36 sbcl has a ton of bugs wow, over 500 22:48:36 Getting such a framework implemented would have to happen server-side, too 22:48:43 also, one thing that is misleading of cl project is the lack of updates. Many libs are just done, and they compile now as they did ten years ago, and work flawlessly. 22:48:54 mdev: go fuck yourself 22:49:03 nice language 22:49:23 if you can't act a like gentlemen do me a favor and don't address me anymore, thanks 22:49:27 prxq: i was just about to suggest that something written even in 1999 could be finished and polished 22:49:28 prxq: Right, that's true, but ANOTHER problem is that you can't tell at a glance if a project has not had updates because it is THAT good or because the single-developer has finally lost interest. :P 22:49:39 mdev: you seem pretty trollish 22:49:46 mdev: most big language compilers/environments have tons of bugs. It comes with the territory of big and complicated systems. 22:49:47 bhyde any reason for that? 22:51:10 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:52 for future reference http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ seems like a good recommendation for newbies 22:52:10 mdev: i don't think lispbox is particularly up-to-date 22:52:15 Try http://lispcabinet.sourceforge.net/ 22:52:26 Seems to be much more up to date. 22:52:26 iirc lispbox isn't really maintained 22:52:32 alright thanks 22:52:47 oh wait, lisp cabinet is windows only 22:54:12 lispbox is emacs with slime and *any* compiler - it's three packages to suck up from repo to be up-to-date 22:54:33 If you are on a mac, clozure is probably the best way to go, since they have better mac integration than just about anyone else afaik, and for bsd/linux just use sbcl 22:54:59 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:56:46 I read that as clojure and got confused for a second there. 22:58:16 cneira [~cneira@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:17 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 22:59:44 btw cffi works like a charm (: 23:00:00 and lots and lots of other things. 23:00:18 ik, but it saved us on project like 3 weeks of work 23:00:27 so i mostly appreciate cffi right now ^_^ 23:00:34 Are there other JIT compilers for common lisp? I think clisp might be the only one. 23:02:02 kristof: CLISP compiles to bytecode. Others, such as CCL and SBCL compile to native instructions. 23:02:08 I know various languages and lisp looks super complicated 23:02:18 and confusing 23:02:31 mdev: might be you 23:02:31 DataLinkDroid: clisp has a jit compiler as well 23:02:36 mdev: great, tease up \o/ 23:02:55 anyway thanks for the help i bookmarked a few pages and may return to it later 23:02:58 have a nice day 23:03:04 -!- mdev [mdev@unaffiliated/mdev] has left #lisp 23:03:19 what a jerk 23:03:24 yep 23:03:30 he had to feed his inner troll 23:03:31 ;] 23:05:12 -!- sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:21 sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has joined #lisp 23:06:29 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:09:31 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f67b4c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:36 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:09:39 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:50 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:13:10 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 23:13:40 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:16:05 So, the experience you guys have had with third party libraries has generally been good? 23:17:01 kristof: you mean a native JIT compiler. according to the clisp doc this is available when clisp is compiled with GNU Lightening. Wasn't aware of that. 23:17:41 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:17:45 Lightning* 23:18:07 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 23:19:30 Also, is there any particular implementation that's reccomended or is more of a "pick the one you like most out of the ones you CAN use"? 23:19:35 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 23:19:42 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 23:20:15 yow, gnu NIH 23:20:21 couldn't they used llvm? 23:22:10 idt llvm was arround (or at least not mature) back when gnu was doing lightning. 23:22:38 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.226] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 according to wiki lighting is a few years older than llvm 23:23:20 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 23:23:31 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@178.101.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:24:03 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@8.115.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:24:17 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:24:18 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:24:58 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:25:32 -!- Petit_Dejeuner [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:06 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 23:27:47 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:29:29 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:35:40 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@229.115.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:36:00 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@8.115.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:39:30 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:02 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@240.104.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:44:27 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@31-146.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:31 -!- lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@229.115.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:47:00 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:37 KarlDscc [~localhost@p578FCCA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:53:00 -!- KarlDscc is now known as Guest20838 23:53:40 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@59.105.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:54:10 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 23:54:43 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@240.104.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:56:21 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9FF8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:59:13 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZZ]