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01:44:08 contect? 01:44:09 context* 01:44:30 if it works for you, why not? 01:44:34 Dunno 01:44:34 without too much boilerplate, that is 01:44:38 I feel like there's another solution 01:44:53 kristof, optima matching after macroexpansion? 01:45:25 -!- echo-area [~user@123.112.225.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:28 context is clojure's core.async's state machine macros which expand some routines into an SSA-like form, and then change that state-machine back into lisp code 01:46:05 I was going to port that to common lisp but I wasn't sure if state-machine ssa is the best way to go about that (although the person who wrote that code is VERY intelligent and knew what he was doing) 01:46:29 clojure core.async? is it like CPS? 01:46:34 It's exactly like that 01:46:36 implements coroutines 01:46:38 Errrrr 01:46:40 Goroutines 01:46:42 try DX lambdas ;-) 01:46:53 d...x... lambdas? *googles* 01:46:57 dynamic extent 01:46:59 :-) 01:47:19 Does that provide a way to resume computation at some context with some particular state? 01:47:20 my old CPS code in google v8 spent 15% collecting lambdas, in a 'tak' microbenchmark 01:47:40 OH 01:47:44 I keep doing that 01:47:56 kristof, goroutines, ah. thought it was like .NET async, which doesn't unwind 01:48:05 I did not mean CPS like continuation passing style, I meant CSP like communicating sequential processes 01:48:05 and enters only once 01:48:25 .NET's async implements a state machine, too. I thought they were the same implementation, in fact 01:48:49 .net await in 4.0 is different 01:48:53 aha 01:49:02 it's just futures 01:49:23 F# has nice untyped compexprs which are supposedly like haskell's monad sugar 01:49:28 except F# is anything but monads/ML: 01:49:30 s/:// 01:49:39 So much to groke :( 01:49:40 *grok 01:49:48 I am probably not cut out for this undertaking 01:49:48 nah, just digressing 01:49:51 but I would like to at least try 01:49:56 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 01:50:18 kristof, are you the SBCL dev or is it Krystof? 01:50:29 sthalik: I am certainly not the SBCL dev 01:50:31 ok 01:50:39 I would love to have the knowledge necessary for that :P 01:50:42 but why not use optima? 01:50:57 macroexpand-all, then patmatch on the forms 01:51:05 sthalik: Another reason why I was asking was because being hosted on the JVM is going to limit some capabilities and there might be some magic possible outside of that realm 01:51:14 sthalik: Uhhh because I do not know what optima is 01:51:19 kristof, it's erasure, no magic :P 01:51:22 *kristof* thorws up hands 01:51:24 clhs optima 01:51:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for optima. 01:51:27 ah 01:51:32 minion, optima? 01:51:32 optima: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/optima 01:51:53 optima's a pattern-matching library similar to ML: 01:52:07 I don't really need data structure pattern matching, do I? 01:52:12 Or maybe that's what the state machine is doing 01:52:34 kristof, you have to turn lisp into some IR, don't you? 01:53:17 aha, SSA should be easy with some sum type 01:53:17 sthalik: Not really. What Clojure's go macro does is it parses some sexprs and shoves it into an association list (a map, in Clojure) 01:53:23 aka, tagged union 01:53:44 thought it was harder stuff, but SSA's just normal form for me 01:53:56 sthalik: And then it creates some tagged SSA "blocks" 01:54:15 kristof, don't worry what's lispy, worry what works and with what cost :P 01:54:29 kristof, you don't wanna see my code, how ugly it is to be fast 01:54:41 echo-area [~user@123.112.225.58] has joined #lisp 01:55:30 sthalik: What's cool is that you can suspend routine 1 while it blocks, save the execution context (as in, we're at block 2, we'll go to block 3 eventually when we get that variable x1), and after routine 2 blocks we jump to routine 1's second block with the value of x1 that we probably have by now 01:55:34 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-84-119-35-113.unity-media.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:55:55 Which SOUNDS like a continuation but someone smarter than me told me that it wasn't, it was just finite state machine stuff 01:57:36 sthalik: So it's not that I want to know what's lispy or not, I was actually a little curious why it was necessary to 1) parse code 2) emit foreign code (in the form of an association list structure) 3) reparse the association list and 4) finally emit more lisp code. It goes full circle, when I thought the power of Lisp macros lied in being able to parse your own code without jumping through that kind of hoop 01:57:43 what about pointers to functions? 01:57:55 kristof, macroexpand-all is the crucial part 01:58:04 without it, you won't be able to expand environments 01:58:15 sthalik: You mean for deep-walking 01:58:23 minion, cl-walker? 01:58:23 cl-walker: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-walker 01:58:36 try this url 01:59:21 sthalik: Timothy (the guy who wrote core.async) as the first part of a 3-video series on core.async's workings actually did a video on deep-walking macros, so I understand expanding code all the way down and capturing environments in the meantime 01:59:48 kristof, but what's the hard part? 02:00:04 sthalik: What do you mean? What's hard for me to grok? 02:00:09 kristof, yes 02:00:22 sthalik: I guess the emitting SSA part was hard for me 02:00:39 but it's possible (and most likely) that there is no other way 02:00:41 kristof, but SSA is just making sure symbols get passed 02:00:49 yeah, I suppose 02:01:04 how does his stuff deal with sequencing side-effectful forms? 02:01:10 is there some annotation in java? 02:01:13 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:17 it's clojure, side-effects are not encouraged 02:01:23 aha... 02:01:30 the only side effecting you're likely to do is write stuff to a channel 02:01:36 oh, how's Shen doing? :) 02:01:36 at least within a goroutine 02:01:43 wonder how's tarver, and all 02:01:44 sthalik: It's doing awful but shen is still cool :'( 02:01:51 kristof, what happened? :( 02:02:02 i feel like writing some type code :P 02:02:05 sthalik: You mean what didn't happen. It never took off! 02:02:28 sthalik: Clojure has a static typing library, but I've seen complaints in the shen community that "it's not nearly as powerful as our type system" 02:02:36 I cannot verify the truth to that statement 02:02:52 anyway, people in here get angry when I talk about other languages, even when they're also lisps, and rightly so 02:03:17 I was only bringing up clojure in this topic because I was going to write some common lisp code to emulate their stuff 02:03:53 kristof, not as much angry as you think, i hope 02:04:09 writing some HM code in cl woulda been fun 02:04:16 sthalik: The problem with the common lisp async libraries is that you've got an implementation for channels, you've got an implementation for (delimited) continuations, and you've got an implementation for asynchronous stuff (using futures) but nothing that brings all three of those together 02:04:23 HM? 02:04:28 haskell monadic 02:04:29 kristof, hindley-milner 02:04:31 hehe 02:04:31 oh right 02:04:33 XD 02:04:35 :) 02:04:52 sthalik: I wanted to inspect cl-cont next and see what they could squeeze out of portable CL code 02:04:58 (delimited continuations library) 02:05:07 doesn't cl-cont rewrite into cps? 02:05:14 transforms, yeah 02:05:32 but grabbing stack information is.. inefficient, isn't it? 02:05:43 stack informaton? 02:05:59 You save stack context in a continuation and reify it later, right? 02:05:59 one time i explained continuations to someone who barely codes and he said "so it's a hack to avoid having to write in CPS?" and now it's hard to think of them in any other way :p 02:06:24 with CPS it's just closures 02:06:36 (at worst) 02:06:41 Oh, is CPS different from continuations? I honestly thought CPS was just using continuations in code 02:07:13 It's different. It means writing functions so that instead of returning they call a "continuation" function (which is just a function) 02:07:24 Yeah, so they have an extra argument, right? 02:07:25 not writing 02:07:27 i mean, too 02:07:34 but transforming to that form, mostly 02:07:39 hrm 02:07:41 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:07:53 won't you blow the stack on some implemenations that aren't TCO'd? 02:07:55 So instead of (* 5 (+ 3 4)) you write (+ 3 4 (lambda (v c) (funcall c (* 5 v)))) yeah 02:07:57 actually 02:07:58 yes, you will 02:08:01 yeah 02:08:05 And it doesn't have anything to do with TCO 02:08:06 you jump when it's about to run out! 02:08:14 did so in my JS code ;-) 02:08:14 because calls can happen mid stack too 02:08:16 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4db4eae3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:08:24 that is in fact one of the main reasons scheme mandates TCO I think. 02:08:25 with whatever means available 02:08:43 even exceptions :-( 02:08:45 Bike: But you'd have to be careful to write every possibly-recurring function in tail call position 02:08:50 yes. 02:08:55 :'( 02:08:58 scheme has standardized tail positions 02:08:59 you can rewrite everything like that though. 02:09:04 not necessarily 02:09:14 you might have two really recursive functions in a progn body 02:09:17 try to figure out how to write (* a (+ b c) (+ d e)) in cps, it's not too bad. 02:09:26 is it sane to write a typed lisp on top of CL? 02:09:44 kristof: you change (progn (a) (b)) to (a (b-that-ignores-its-argument)) 02:09:56 what 02:09:56 er, #'b-that-ignores-its-argument 02:10:08 b might have to accept arguments though 02:10:22 b that ignores its first argument, the one that's the result of a. 02:10:37 (arg (#'function)) is not proper syntax, is it? 02:10:50 No, I meant (a #'b-that-ignores) 02:11:05 guys, ^\ 02:11:06 in other words a is continuing to b. 02:11:19 well I still don't see how any functional-calling-with-arguments is going to happen except b being the argument to a 02:11:25 sthalik: i'd rather extend CL's types, personally. 02:11:25 how hard is it to write non-forward-only inference? 02:11:29 sthalik: Yes, it is 02:11:29 kristof: b is the continuation. 02:11:33 Bike, but it's not possible, due to their issues 02:11:39 sthalik: which issues 02:11:45 *kristof* throws hands up in air 02:11:45 Bike, SATISFIES, SUBTYPEP 02:11:54 lack of first-classedness 02:11:59 lack of proper specialization 02:12:31 type checking is unit testing for types 02:12:35 well yes, by extend i mean something new, not just a bunch of deftypes. 02:12:49 so I'm sure bootstrapping a typed language in common lisp would be possible 02:12:51 Bike, i'm feeling like it ;-) 02:12:54 since started lisping again 02:13:11 what's the typing paradigm to choose? sth better than hm? 02:13:11 sthalik: Did you mean a language on top of CL or a language with a compiler written in CL? 02:13:18 kristof, a language rather similar to CL 02:13:26 oh 02:13:27 like, typed-racket 02:13:28 hmm 02:13:38 sthalik: Why don't you just work with shen 02:13:44 kristof, but it never took off? 02:13:45 :'( 02:13:58 sthalik: doesn't really matter 02:13:59 also, tarver has weird ideas with underscores in type decls 02:14:14 also, it's afair gpl so don't wanna taint myself 02:14:23 also some book nonsense 02:14:32 sthalik: And even though Shen won't let you take explicit control of the stack (necessary for efficient continuations) you can use a type system to implement continuation passing style transformations 02:14:40 so not everything is going to be ... 02:14:42 OH 02:14:44 I FINALLY GET IT 02:14:56 I read this paper last night and wasn't really sure what the big deal was but talking to Bike helped me understand 02:15:00 sthalik: gimme a second 02:15:14 i'm reviving github/sthalik/clcl, i guess 02:15:23 wonder how salvageable it is 02:15:29 sthalik: http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/149136/files/icfp113-rompf.pdf 02:15:36 kristof, sorry, no time ;-) need to hack 02:15:40 ok :( 02:15:48 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.198.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:16:05 do you guys have experience with dependent types? 02:16:11 so if I understand this right, programs without first class continuation primitives can have primitives by transforming the whole code into continuation passing style 02:16:16 sthalik: No, but I've heard of isis 02:16:23 as well, how to make them use every possible type, and not just nats? 02:16:30 kristof, idris? 02:16:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has left #lisp 02:16:43 what's with him? 02:16:50 sthalik: .......that one, the name I always get wrong. (half a year ago, it was "iris") :P 02:16:57 :) 02:17:04 sthalik: nothing's "with him", we just bored him probably 02:17:07 aha 02:17:28 anyway, transforming everything into continuation passing style is bad because you'll blow the stack all the time 02:17:35 no 02:17:37 you can jump 02:17:40 ? 02:17:41 with impunity ;-) 02:17:46 just unwind the stack, saving last k 02:17:59 and the value to pass 02:18:01 i've done it like this 02:18:05 sthalik: read the previous comment, you need primitives in the language that let you unwind the stack 02:18:08 just don't jump all the time, only when it's almost full! 02:18:17 kristof, oh my, every lang has them ;P 02:18:20 ... 02:18:27 what am I not seeing, here? 02:18:32 kristof, exception handling ;D 02:18:52 sthalik: explain to me what you mean 02:19:04 kristof, throw some exc type 02:19:14 having as params, value returned, and the next continuation 02:19:17 and then the program shits itself 02:19:21 nonsense 02:19:25 catch it in toplevel 02:19:28 ;-) 02:19:41 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 02:19:58 i've even known how to do dynamic-wind, once 02:20:04 by copying from scheme48 02:20:18 gave up before doing hygienic macros, though 02:20:21 so is that like "reset"? 02:20:25 the exception handler at the toplevel 02:20:26 kristof, yes 02:20:31 sthalik: that is such a hack 02:20:34 close the world, open the NeXt 02:20:46 kristof, that's similar to how chicken scheme does it 02:20:49 sthalik: Do most languages return the execution context at exception? 02:21:03 kristof, no! make exc type, with slots having what to return 02:21:19 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:21:23 in CL, you'd use RETURN-FROM closure, though 02:21:29 which is way better, perf-wise, than exc 02:21:33 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 02:21:39 sthalik: two questions 02:22:00 ok? 02:22:01 sthalik: How do you make sure that, say, a routine in python will throw an exception of that exc type 02:22:02 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.47] has joined #lisp 02:22:18 sthalik: Also, in common lisp, if you're using a return from... 02:22:20 -!- RenRenJuan [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:22:23 never mind, no second question 02:22:28 kristof, you need a fun that's called all the time when a new frame's allocated :( 02:22:35 in you CPS transform 02:22:41 in/when 02:22:52 a second function call for every stack frame? 02:22:59 open-code it i guess 02:23:05 this is all above me 02:23:12 kristof, inline the call, hardcode it 02:23:28 kristof, if only had the old code to show you, it was atrocious, though 02:23:44 as is all scheme code ;P 02:23:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:56 hrm 02:23:57 ok 02:24:02 I will mull on this for five years 02:24:04 :) 02:24:04 kristof, do you know type theory? 02:24:08 no, it's easy 02:24:11 sthalik: Nope 02:24:13 i have no math backorund 02:24:20 and made a working CPS impl 02:24:23 sthalik: I have a big math background, so go for it 02:24:40 kristof, need to have some nice relatively-inferrable type system 02:24:46 an established one 02:24:50 possibly w/o existentials 02:24:58 sthalik: I don't know anything other than hindley milner 02:25:00 with dependent types 02:25:03 I know shen doesn't use HL 02:25:08 oh, HL doesn't have dependent types? 02:25:10 :/ 02:25:14 kristof, it can be glued-on 02:25:17 well don't ask me! Google it! 02:25:19 they're just like compile-time stuffies 02:25:23 kristof, but i have no math background 02:25:35 they use greek and all that 02:25:36 :( 02:26:14 i've had some ideas, like using dep types to codegen stuff, like mult for matrices, etc 02:26:32 like, unwound loops, reductions 02:27:14 ok, time to hack for me 02:27:17 except sleepy :/ 02:28:41 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B01ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:29:11 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:29:33 'guess could go far with constraint propagation and unification :) 02:30:30 Good luck with that! 02:31:40 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:05 Pass: 9 (100%) 02:32:06 hm. 02:32:28 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 02:36:31 -!- samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:40:04 samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:52 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:02 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:47:50 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:48:30 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:16 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 02:55:52 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 03:02:26 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B01ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:43 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 03:12:09 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:13:02 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 03:16:04 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:51 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 03:19:35 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 03:19:45 not sure how it's done by ivory-tower intellectuals 03:20:00 but thinking of making type-macros, for dep types 03:20:48 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:21:33 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 03:22:28 such-that arbitrary types can be depended on 03:22:37 type-values, that is :| 03:22:52 this makes for nice ivory-plated metacircular system 03:24:02 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-242.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:02 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:24:08 this sounds like the "tower of evaluation" thing I keep hearing about in articles 03:24:31 Petit_Dejeuner_, really? i just thought it up at 4am 03:24:49 it can't be that good, fsvo 03:25:30 sthalik, what I'm talking about gets mentioned in here several times https://leanpub.com/lisphackers 03:25:35 k0001 [~k0001@host73.190-137-65.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:25:38 I might not be thinking of the same thing though. 03:25:51 vermicelli [~vermicell@114.143.149.236] has joined #lisp 03:25:59 Petit_Dejeuner_, is it about dependent types, and arbitrary operations on thereof? 03:26:27 probably not, the only thing that reminded me of it was "ivory-plated metacircular system" 03:26:36 I'm not actually a huge lisper. 03:26:53 Petit_Dejeuner_, lisp isn't made of ivory! 03:26:56 anything but 03:27:18 No, it was the matacircular part. 03:27:22 :) 03:27:27 -!- pjb [~user@AMontsouris-651-1-136-54.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:27:32 oh yes, it's illegal to make things out of ivory! 03:27:45 unless it's made by academia, for science! 03:28:13 the towers have to be plated with something 03:28:18 ivory is something 03:28:23 therefore the towers have to be plated with ivory 03:28:45 spock would be jealous 03:28:56 what a brilliant flash of logic! ;-) 03:29:21 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:29 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 03:30:22 -!- gko_ [~gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:51 gko_ [~gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:13 if there was an invisible cat in my char it would look empty, my chair looks empty, therefore there is an invisible cat 03:31:21 lisp has enlightned me 03:31:43 induction? ;-) 03:32:09 all swans are white, and the like 03:35:15 It's been a while, and I didn't do much logic. But I think I'm assuming the inverse of a proposition is correct. 03:35:44 induction is fun too, you can mess with anyone in a field that does experiments 03:36:21 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:45 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:37:50 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-69-220.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:53 worse even is confirmation bias ;-) 03:38:29 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-70-45.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:39 soggybread [~booblik@ppp91-76-164-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:39:51 sthalik: abduction 03:41:39 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 03:41:40 although bad abduction since the antecedents are more surprising than the consequence 03:52:09 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-195-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:52:23 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-162.netcologne.de] has joined 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[~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:28:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:42 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 07:32:33 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.201.192] has joined #lisp 07:36:43 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:46:15 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:29 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 07:54:00 -!- splittist_ [uid17737@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vgwqzkwxfsvnqojk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:56:19 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:00:42 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:02:15 -!- nug700 [~nug700@209-181-103-181.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:02:31 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-73-204.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:45 kish1991 [~chatzilla@49.15.43.169] has joined #lisp 08:04:35 zkc [~zhangkaiz@27.47.19.5] has joined #lisp 08:08:32 -!- kish1991 [~chatzilla@49.15.43.169] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131015052812]] 08:10:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:18:32 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-194-13.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:18:43 Good morning everyone! 08:19:50 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 08:20:17 beach: bonjour! 08:21:22 zoek1 [~zoek1@187.135.5.16] has joined #lisp 08:21:38 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.201.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:40 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:59 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:24:20 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:24:31 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:27:30 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:29:36 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-73-204.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:56 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:32:53 icrazyhack [~horieyui@li671-239.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:40 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:07 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.226] has joined #lisp 08:48:35 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 prxq [~mommer@x2f6c70d.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:40 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6c70d.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:47 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6c70d.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:55:52 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 08:56:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:56:52 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 09:01:01 vaporatorius [~vaporator@108.red-80-29-88.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.137.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:26 Climatis now have some gadgets: http://metamodular.com/climatis.png 09:06:07 s/have/has/ 09:06:22 but does it have cells? 09:06:50 ? 09:07:08 kenny tilton's cells 09:07:15 No it does not. 09:11:50 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:02 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:12:22 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:13:06 chawls [~ronen@IGLD-84-228-66-76.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:15:17 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:15:56 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:16:05 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 09:19:29 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 09:24:05 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:30:41 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.42] has joined #lisp 09:35:24 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:08 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 09:39:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:39:34 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:21 -!- desophos 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-!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-7-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54:55 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 12:00:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:00:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:06:11 jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:08:29 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:12:48 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B01ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:19 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-158-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:38 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 12:20:44 -!- zoek1 [~zoek1@187.135.5.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:24:03 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:24:39 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.48] has joined #lisp 12:31:02 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:52 Wow, quiet today. 12:34:55 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:15 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:25 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.54] has joined #lisp 12:39:20 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.232.75] has joined #lisp 12:39:49 no worries 12:39:55 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 12:40:42 -!- psyllo [~psyllo@107-206-157-103.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:51 Just surprised. I left for a few hours, and nothing happened in the meantime. 12:41:27 irc's charm ^_^ 12:42:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-82-248.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:37 ggole [~ggole@124-169-89-178.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:48:07 chenjf [~chenjf@14.209.99.145] has joined #lisp 12:50:34 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:38 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:53 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 12:53:01 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.232.75] has quit [] 12:54:38 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:22 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 12:57:26 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:51 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:14 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:06:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:10 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:54 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@14.209.99.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:16:16 lispers are busy lisping. 13:16:38 yooth [~other@188.162.65.24] has joined #lisp 13:16:42 hello 13:17:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:18:08 what is ideomatic way for making "toggling" functions(yeah it's non FP-way), i mean first time function called it sets something on and on second time it's being called it sets something off 13:18:41 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.88] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 having idea to setfing global varialbes on fisrt call and then checking if those variables are defined. 13:19:06 yooth: (setf x (not x))? 13:19:10 why did you find it necessary to specify that it's a non-FP way? 13:19:30 yooth: and initially (defparameter x nil) 13:19:32 perhaps you have the wrong assumptions that CL is a functional programming language 13:19:47 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 13:20:04 beach: what if x is not defined? Nah, i don't know what to defparameter beforehand 13:20:24 stassats: why do you find necessary to ask about it? 13:20:45 yooth: So when you say "sets something", how do you know what "something" is? 13:21:14 Or rather: (let ((x nil)) (defun toggle () (setf x (not x)))) 13:21:40 (loop repeat 10 collect (toggle)) --> (t nil t nil t nil t nil t nil) 13:22:47 yooth: You have to distinguish between a variable that is not defined and a variable that has the value NIL. 13:22:58 beach: "something" is something that i can use to check for boolen equality of arbitrary arguments. sorry let me restate my problem 13:23:23 pjb: which is harder to inspect, harder to rest to the initial value, and defun is not at the top-level anymore 13:24:27 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:26 i want to define function which will take arbitrary argument X, for all X it should keep boolean state. forall even(first call, third call, etc) calls of that function with X argument it should set that boolean state of X to true 13:25:53 s/even/odd/ 13:26:18 and of each even(secod, fourth) it should set state for X to false. 13:26:20 (defparameter *state* (make-hash-table)) (defun keep (x) (setf (gethash x *state*) (not (gethash x *state*)))) 13:26:25 yooth: what are you really trying to do? 13:27:07 pjb: yeah, i guess it's the only sane way to do it. 13:27:40 thanks 13:28:14 -!- yooth [~other@188.162.65.24] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:28:25 in the least it should be a weak keyed hash-table 13:28:47 Nope. 13:28:49 and he's left 13:29:01 what a peculiar way to ask questions 13:29:03 It's not specified when the next time it will be called with the same x will be. 13:29:19 That's the stackoverflow way. 13:29:46 stassats: I think most questions here are asked in a peculiar way. 13:30:24 HG` [~HG@213.5.69.36] has joined #lisp 13:30:25 but most can be steered into the right direction 13:33:07 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:33:36 pjb: if it were an EQ hashtable, then it wouldn't matter 13:33:59 otherwise, bignums or characters can be wrongfully evicted 13:34:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:45 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:57:59 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:59:36 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:00:28 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:02:46 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 14:04:06 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:55 teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has joined #lisp 14:10:42 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c014:3d0:18fa:314] has joined #lisp 14:11:49 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:11:55 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:12:15 how do I turn #P"/this/file" to "/this/file" ? 14:12:16 -!- kanru` [~kanru@111-249-158-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:12:32 clhs namestring 14:12:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 14:14:22 add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:14:59 thank you 14:18:35 I have seen ~a and ~A in different books for format spec. Which is best? 14:18:45 identical. 14:18:52 insensitive 14:18:52 I prefer to write ~A, but it doesn't matter. 14:19:03 ok 14:19:37 just as long as your usage is consistent, ivan-kanis 14:20:16 I think I'll pick upper case. It shows the place holder a little louder. 14:24:22 it's more likely that you want something like cffi-sys:native-namestring 14:26:02 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:26:40 also, if you give it the aesthetic directive, format will strip off the #p: (format nil "~a" #p"/this/file") => "/this/file" 14:35:37 -!- zkc [~zhangkaiz@27.47.19.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:13 or "~A" in your case :-) 14:36:33 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 14:36:37 in your case.. get it? 14:36:44 is there a mud client in CL? I'd like to try something more flexible than tintin++ 14:37:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.137.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:37:29 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 14:38:19 fikusz: I wish there was but nope. 14:39:57 fikusz: you can write one, that would be great. 14:40:05 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:24 hitecnologys: well maybe... the basic stuff is just telnet and text processing 14:42:19 fikusz: aha. Just curious, what MUDs do you play? 14:42:42 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:43:57 hitecnologys: I used to play some hungarian muds, but haven't played anything in a long time. I recently played some roguelikes and wanted to check out what's available in 2013 :) 14:44:34 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:50 hitecnologys: regarding writing a client in CL, I'm afraid I don't know much about terminal emulation 14:45:32 hehe, someone did it already at mit 14:45:34 with rogue/nethack 14:45:48 fikusz: well, I haven't played for a long time too. Only NetHack and DF. 14:46:15 hitecnologys, the harder part is cursor motion 14:46:44 sthalik: not really, ncurses is pretty damn good at such things. 14:46:44 hitecnologys: same here 14:46:50 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-067-170.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 hitecnologys, but on client, not emitter 14:47:07 i.e. parse terminfo sequences 14:47:10 sthalik: ah, I see. 14:47:11 but in reverse 14:47:22 Yeah, this may be hard. 14:47:36 just tedious 14:47:40 luis-, got back to clcl! 14:48:18 need to make mod integer type for indices :/ 14:48:30 as well as inference 14:49:28 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 14:49:29 that doesn't seem too hard, though... 14:49:42 is there a version of getf that I can specify the testcase 14:49:43 I guess one could just start with whatever telnet does and go from there 14:49:59 indicator is a string, so it doesn't match with getf 14:50:15 kenanb: you need to write your own 14:52:39 adeht: I guess its easy, match the indicator in list, get location, get the next element. but I thought using the one in a library if there is one that defines it is a better practice 14:53:17 assoc-if 14:53:23 ah, for plists 14:53:30 just iter on #'cddr 14:56:58 -!- easye` [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:57:21 easye [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has joined #lisp 15:00:59 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:43 jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:15:03 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-91-113.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:51 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 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joined #lisp 16:08:02 nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 Ash [~aaron@facestab.org] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 mtd_ [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:16 francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has joined #lisp 16:13:57 mathrick: around? 16:14:07 beach: yeah 16:14:11 what's up? 16:14:19 mathrick: Oh, just wanted to give you a quick update. 16:14:30 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:15:05 mathrick: I am making good progress on CLIMatis. I think all the low-level stuff exists now, and I have a few gadgets, but not very many yet. 16:15:11 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has quit [Quit: gendl] 16:15:55 mathrick: With respect to Climacs, I now know how to display an arbitrarily large buffer with essentially no performance degradation due to its size. 16:16:04 oh nice 16:16:11 beach: that sounds very cool 16:16:18 mathrick: ... and I implemented that zone type in CLIMatis, but I haven't tested it yet. 16:16:39 I take it that "that zone type" is the solution to large buffer display? 16:16:47 Exactly. 16:17:31 beach: I gave second climacs a spin recently, it works, although is obviously very brittle. So at least we know it works on 2 unrelated systems :) 16:17:50 Wow, excellent. That's more than I could hope for! :) 16:18:16 I haven't made any attempt to make it easy to install or anything. 16:18:24 it dies and goes into debugger pretty much whenever you look at it funny, but I expected no better with the handful of commands implemented 16:18:39 there are some issue where it goes outside an index range, need to debug that 16:18:57 and remove the hardcoded "test-input" it tries to open 16:18:57 mathrick: I found a bug in the buffer code yesterday I think it was. That was part of the problem. 16:19:02 ah 16:19:03 nice 16:19:09 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:20 those changes should make it much easier to use it for something 16:19:47 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 16:19:48 mathrick: MY problem is that there are SO many things to do (and so little time, as usual). 16:20:06 mathrick: But I just wanted to keep you updated. I am making fast and steady progress. 16:20:10 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:18 mattrick: Always a worrying expression to hear. :) 16:20:29 beach: my current plan is, once I'm done editing wikipedia, to start writing the calendar (with CLIM2). Then I'll see where that goes, and armed with some understanding of CLIM2, to look at where CLIM3 is currently and how Climacs ties into it all 16:20:48 by "once I'm done editing", I mean I'd like to do it today or tomorrow 16:20:57 depending on some other things I've promised people 16:21:00 Uh oh! 16:21:11 You are actually going to USE it? 16:21:26 You are a very brave man. 16:21:40 beach: no, not for anything precious :) But start moving that way 16:22:01 I know, but you understand that you will run into all kinds of problems. 16:22:03 removing silly warts like "file test-input not found" is a good idea either way 16:22:17 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:17 beach: I *ran* it already. I know exactly how horribly it doesn't work 16:22:20 ... like the documentation not being up to date. 16:22:36 ... and the examples not reflecting the latest changes in the library. 16:22:42 Stuff like that. 16:22:56 that's why I want to give it a spin, to have at least a rough list of things that are obviously preventing any kind of use 16:23:21 I don't expect to reach that stage for a week more at least 16:23:33 mathrick: OK, I guess this declaration of yours motivates me to update the examples and the documentation ASAP. 16:24:09 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:24:10 beach: you can make it ASAPOSNW :) 16:24:31 ("...or sometime next week") 16:24:35 minion: What does OSNW stand for? 16:24:36 Opinionatedly Soulfulness Nonmanifestation Winger 16:24:41 Oh. OK. 16:25:29 mathrick: I know I mock you publicly here, but actually, you provide inspiration for this work, so I am just joking. You know that right? 16:25:30 I absolutely expect to be miserable just grasping CLIM at first, so there's really not as much rush as you seem to be afraid of 16:25:44 beach: yeah, and it makes me very happy 16:25:49 OK, I am sure you know what you are doing. 16:26:03 I really wanted Climacs to work for the longest time 16:26:11 so seeing it happen is totally thrilling 16:26:28 I agree. 16:27:03 beach: btw, the climatis calendard demo doesn't do anything besides being able to switch months when you click arrows, correct? 16:27:20 I think the first attempt (First Climacs, McCLIM) should be viewed as experience-gathering. The second attempt is going to be more successful. 16:27:31 mathrick: Correct! 16:28:00 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 16:28:02 beach: have you given any thought to VIER yet, or is it too soon to see what could go there? 16:28:08 mathrick: The most up-to-date demo is the "clueless" inspector. 16:28:13 I have an expansion for it, at least :) 16:28:30 As in the input editor for CLIM3? 16:28:31 (VIER Improves on EINE's Revisions) 16:28:34 yea 16:28:42 Nah, haven't given it a thought. 16:28:52 Too busy with more basic stuff at the moment. 16:28:57 right 16:29:15 it kinda needs a working editor to know what is basic substrate anyway 16:29:20 mathrick: The killer, though (I hope) is going to be my plan for the CL incremental parser. 16:29:28 mhm 16:29:29 mathrick: Indeed. 16:30:09 beach: I'm excited to learn CLIM, as I consider myself fairly well-versed in more conventional toolkits, so I'll be interested to see how things there are done 16:30:44 mathrick: CLIM II is definitely worth knowing, if for nothing else for the use of CLOS. 16:31:22 ya 16:31:25 mathrick: I think I actually learned what OO programming is about from the CLI M II spec. 16:31:26 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 *CLIM II 16:32:35 mathrick: Funny piece of information though: The more I understand what I must do in CLIM3, the more I understand what Scott probably meant in the CLIM II spec. 16:32:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.6.83] has joined #lisp 16:32:43 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.6.83] has quit [Changing host] 16:32:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:33:02 -!- nha_ is now known as nha 16:33:35 mathrick: This gives me the idea that one day I should re-read the CLIM II spec in the light of what I now understand, and change McCLIM to fit the better model. 16:33:49 mhm 16:34:08 it's the same principle that's behind everyone writing their own Scheme 16:34:22 or their own emacs, for that matter 16:34:28 Heh! 16:35:17 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:35:23 Well, there is the issue of writing a sufficiently pedagogical spec so that people don't have to do that much work in order to get it. 16:35:35 right 16:35:55 k0001 [~k0001@host227.190-229-213.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 I am not blaming Scott. He did the best he could with the constraints (time, staff). 16:37:06 ... But his spec is definitely not as good as the CLHS. 16:38:47 mathrick: At the moment though, I am concentrating on finishing CLIMatis as much as is required for Second Climacs. McCLIM improvements will have to wait. 16:39:27 right 16:40:37 beach: I think it makes sense to concentrate on CLIMatis as much as possible. After all, it exists to solve problems that are intractable in McCLIM, and it should rather be an unambiguously desirable target for porting, rather than a so-so alternative 16:40:39 mathrick: Oh, one more thing: since you consider yourself "fairly well-versed in more conventional toolkits" (which I am not), it would be great to see a comparison one day. Why not write a book about it for instance? 16:40:48 beach: I just might 16:40:50 good idea 16:40:58 mathrick: We could collaborate. 16:41:31 -!- levenson [~user@broadband-95-84-129-236.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:41:32 mathrick: I master CreateSpace now, and I have a US Social-security number (which they pretty much require). 16:41:33 I think I'll start that first, actually, so that I can lay down the basics of how things work in non-CLIM world without being "polluted" by also learning CLIM 16:41:43 what's CreateSpace? 16:41:51 did you ever look at DUIM, which is sort of Scott's redo of CLIM? 16:41:52 mathrick: Amazon self-publishing. 16:42:04 mal___: yes, a bit. 16:42:46 mathrick: Sure, no rush. Just something to keep in mind. 16:43:29 beach: I mean I will start writing the book before writing the calendar gadget in CLIM I mentioned before, because I think it will be better for the resulting text 16:43:51 mal___: is it much different? 16:44:13 mathrick: hard to tell. I never really got CLIM. 16:44:24 heh 16:44:26 he left some CLIM stuff out if I recall. 16:44:36 and do you get DUIM? 16:44:40 nope :) 16:44:41 mathrick: Whatever you can handle. I always have at least 5 book projects going. 16:45:02 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:29 and some differences may be attributable to the difference in target language. Dylan (even in prefix syntax) doesn't map 1 to 1 to CL 16:47:28 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:34 mathrick: Writing a book requires daily inspiration, just the way you provide that kind of inspiration for CLIM3/CLIMatis and Second Climacs. I am just saying that I can provide that inspiration (and LOTS of input) if one day you decide to write a book. 16:47:52 - 16:48:01 pjb: ? 16:48:03 beach: tangent, but I find it hard to believe I ever worked without multiple cursors. I just used it today in probably 6 different ways, each of which would've taken tens of minutes, if not hours, longer to get done otherwise 16:48:14 pjb: I considered asking you to write a book with me too. 16:48:35 mathrick: You can have as many cursors as you want. 16:48:40 -!- chawls [~ronen@IGLD-84-228-66-76.inter.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:49 beach: right, but that is a good idea which I feel inspired to do right now, because I can definitely see value in it. I won't do it all in a single sitting, but I can definitely get intro chapters for non-CLIM toolkits down right away 16:49:23 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:49:30 beach: mhm, I was actually talking about GNU Emacs more than a few months back when I discovered multiple-cursors.el (or any other editor I've used before) 16:49:57 well, a lot of it was solvable using macros already 16:50:04 it was just less elegant and immediate 16:50:14 mathrick: Excellent. If you write those chapters, I can read them and compare to my knowledge of CLIM II. 16:50:28 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:55 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:50:57 mathrick: Emacs already allows multiple cursors by default. The mark is one, and then there are named marks too. 16:51:20 right, different meaning of cursors I think 16:51:27 Oh. :( 16:51:29 it doesn't provide user-accessible multiple "points" 16:51:40 I see. 16:51:44 (emacs's point is what other editor call cursors) 16:51:51 I know. 16:51:52 *cursor 16:52:05 It does though. Each "window" has its own. 16:52:23 you can't manipulate more than one by default 16:52:24 Providing several in a single "window" would be trivial. 16:52:31 normanrichards [~textual@209.144.63.76] has joined #lisp 16:52:33 that's the meaning of "multiple cursors" 16:52:40 and is what multiple-cursors.el does 16:52:42 Doesn't sound hard to me. 16:52:47 beach: not entirely trivial, but doable 16:53:02 beach: http://emacsrocks.com/e13.html 16:53:02 But maybe in Emacs it is non-trivial indeed. 16:53:35 if you have 4 minutes to spare, you should watch it 16:53:36 multiple cursors with multiple buffers? 16:53:40 it's really the best explanation 16:53:45 stupid occurs check :( 16:53:47 sthalik: nope, multiple in one buffer 16:53:50 yow! 16:53:50 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:05 what is a minimum amount of memory cl needs to work (approx) 16:54:09 mathrick: OK, I will, but not right now. To tired after 14 hours of work. 16:54:18 jackdaniel, cl isn't an implementation 16:54:28 sthalik: i mean - smallest implementation of cl 16:54:34 mind shortcut 16:55:08 anyone uses tree-shaken commercial lisps without EVAL? :) 16:55:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:55:12 sthalik: watch the video I linked, it really shows what it's about :) 16:55:14 they're probably smallest 16:55:31 mathrick, sorry, tired from hacking on clcl 16:55:42 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:59 sthalik: but what would be approx amount of mem they need 16:55:59 -!- Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 16:56:10 -!- normanrichards [~textual@209.144.63.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:13 jackdaniel, what's your target? arm? 16:56:16 jackdaniel: 0 bytes. 16:56:21 jackdaniel: hard to say really. You're not gonna run it on a 256K atmel, but old macs with a couple megs of RAM had their implementation without issues 16:56:26 That's for a highly optimized instance doing nothing. 16:56:45 jackdaniel: what are you trying to do? 16:56:54 sthalik: im thinking about parallella device 16:57:10 jackdaniel, how much ram does adapteva hw got? 16:57:13 in many cases, generating target code from CL is a workable solution that can bring it down arbitrarily much 16:57:31 mathrick, just you wait till clcl is done 16:57:32 :) 16:57:39 *sthalik* gonna plug in escape analysis some day 16:57:41 well, there is ordinary dual core arm at charge, but there is elephant chip with 64 cores (1MB each) 16:57:47 at least in future versions 16:58:03 good point from mathrick, people already generate fftw from ocaml to C 16:58:08 sthalik: what's clcl? 16:58:20 mathrick, type system in cl, to generate code 16:58:25 and im wondering, if lparallel could possible deploy work to this chip 16:58:27 i'm in the process of adding dep types 16:58:30 possibly* 16:58:32 unification seems done 16:58:32 sthalik: link? 16:58:39 mathrick, http://github.com/sthalik/clcl/ 16:58:47 just pushed :) 16:59:30 sthalik: oh, so it's CL as in open CL, generated from Common Lisp? 16:59:49 I might soon be interested in it, depending on my possible employment I'm trying to get 17:00:01 mathrick, it was the original conception 17:00:09 but when i add escape analysis... 17:00:23 and struct-splicing-to-vars 17:00:27 so what does/will it do? 17:01:08 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-154-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:31 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adapteva/parallella-a-supercomputer-for-everyone <- even less memory for now 17:02:37 jackdaniel: wikipedia claims they have shared flat memory space 17:02:59 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:05 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@1.80.35.0] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:03:51 pjb: What would you think about the idea of collaborating on a CL book? 17:04:17 pjb: Not an offer (yet). Just a poll. 17:04:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:04:53 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:56 fe[nl]ix: Whatever happened to CLtL3? 17:06:18 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 17:06:44 sthalik: so what does/will it do? 17:07:13 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:07:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:34 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 17:08:59 mathrick: it still gives 16 x 32kb, what gives 0.5M 17:09:19 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 17:09:46 jackdaniel: isn't that local cache? They have access to the shared 1GB RAM 17:10:05 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:14:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:05 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 17:20:54 heh. heh. I love quicklisp 17:21:03 we all do 17:24:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:14 jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-5.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 foreignFunction1 [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 17:28:10 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 17:28:19 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.62.173] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:28:33 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:28:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:52 gendl [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has joined #lisp 17:31:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-5.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:23 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@li664-219.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:46:37 pjb: Did you faint? 17:46:45 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:57 mathrick: The reason Second Climacs always loads a particular file is that CLIMatis does not yet have an input editor, so I can't prompt for the file name. 17:51:12 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:32 mathrick, it's a type system, in the future, also codegen 17:53:57 dep types are unfinished 17:54:11 they need some int subtype 17:57:15 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 18:00:25 pnpuff [~unbeldi@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:04:10 ykm [~user@182.237.171.52] has joined #lisp 18:06:15 mathrick: afaik nope, but im not 100% sure 18:07:33 -!- gko_ [~gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:16 -!- pnpuff [~unbeldi@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:12:48 ehaliewicz [~user@12.27.66.4] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-194-13.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:13:45 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:23 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:14:33 sthalik: OK, what would a type system be useful for then? 18:15:12 mathrick, codegen 18:15:31 -!- ykm [~user@182.237.171.52] has left #lisp 18:15:36 -!- blaz_ [~blaz@BSN-61-121-173.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:47 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:16:03 sthalik: of? 18:16:25 -!- foreignFunction1 [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:16:52 mathrick, of type-specialized code 18:17:07 like? And in what language? 18:17:13 for CL, auto (declare (type ...)), for other langs, lispy syntax and semantics 18:17:28 mathrick, i'm thinking of typed cl, opencl and C 18:18:22 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:18:38 I just realized 18:18:45 sthalik: hmm, do you have an example of input CL that'd take? 18:18:51 Pattern matching is just a subset of predicate dispatch 18:19:11 kristof: obviously, and? 18:19:13 and is trivially implemented with COND statements 18:19:16 Not obviously! 18:19:27 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 18:19:33 kristof, not really 18:19:40 sthalik: No? 18:19:40 the other way around 18:19:50 kristof, you can destructure 18:19:50 .-. 18:20:09 mathrick: How is everything? 18:20:31 mathrick, typed cl input? 18:21:07 :t (let ((foo 42)) foo) =====> INT 18:21:07 :) 18:21:28 actually, there's gotta be int mod types 18:21:31 for dependents 18:21:46 (one flat) cond would be a pretty terrible way to implement pattern matching 18:22:03 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:27 *sthalik* did pattern matching with CLOS 18:22:33 user-definable patterns, too 18:22:43 but optima's Just Better 18:23:50 ggole: It would probably be nested, but I see your point 18:23:51 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host227.190-229-213.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:13 kristof, cond? what about pat bindings? 18:24:17 most examples of pattern matching, though, typically are a list of patterns to be matched against 18:24:20 sthalik: I have no idea what those are 18:24:39 elfenixtorres [~vantage@119.Red-83-53-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:39 first thing that comes up in google is a norvig document. ...should probably read this 18:24:39 sthalik: I'd like to see the kind of CL it takes, and the kind of CL it generates (and how is that better than type inference SBCL already does?) 18:24:39 kristof, (list* a b _ NULL) 18:25:04 mathrick, interproc, dependent-types for bounds checking and codegen 18:25:21 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:39 mathrick, sbcl as per spec can't infer interproc 18:25:53 sthalik: yes, I've heard that several times already. I'd still like to see an example of input and output 18:26:02 ah, OK, that is a new piece of information 18:26:06 jdoles [~jdoles@unaffiliated/jdoles] has joined #lisp 18:26:26 mathrick, it's gonna be ML with CL syntax 18:26:38 with arbitrary dep types, aka "type functions" 18:26:42 turtles all the way down :) 18:26:55 What does "most examples" have to do with it? Unless you are implementing a subset, you're obliged to handle every case. 18:26:56 OK, I guess I'll just wait till it takes some shape 18:27:08 mathrick, critique woulda been nice 18:27:24 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has quit [Quit: gendl] 18:27:25 mathrick, no promises, but working again on the old code 18:27:53 sthalik: given that I still have very little idea of what you're trying to do, I can't critique, and attempts at getting actual information out of you failed, so... 18:28:07 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:c014:3d0:18fa:314] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 mathrick, so far, unification works, and type specialization of existing types 18:28:47 implemented types - modules, functions, vars, arbitrary primitives 18:29:00 sthalik: Why don't you just make a reader for ML that allows you to work in its abstract syntax tree 18:29:11 in fact, I'm sure there's something like that out there. Template Haskell is similar 18:29:24 kristof, because ocaml has lots of historical garbage 18:29:28 ok 18:29:34 this is #lisp, anyway 18:29:43 kristof, also, i want to run it in SBCL, the compiled code :) 18:29:43 Camlp4 does that: but camlp4 is poorly documented and amazingly complex 18:29:56 as well as target opencl, etc 18:30:12 as well as codegen basinc on dimensions, i.e. unrolled loops of matrices 18:31:11 pierpa`` [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:32:52 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-11-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 vantage|home [~vantage@119.Red-83-53-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@119.Red-83-53-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:27 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:58 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@119.Red-83-53-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 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I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 20:19:39 -!- rk[XplorN] is now known as rk[bike] 20:21:28 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:23:20 -!- psyllo [~psyllo@107-206-157-103.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:23:22 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:23:45 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:58 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:31:22 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:46 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:34 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:32 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:55 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:45:40 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:49 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:47:17 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:31 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:57:08 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-239-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:57:59 -!- qw3rtman_ [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 21:01:42 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:07:26 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@108.red-80-29-88.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:08:14 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 21:08:54 robot-be` [~user@24.118.142.0] has joined #lisp 21:10:15 other_nick-37 [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 21:10:47 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 21:11:00 kpreid_ [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:20 vaporatorius [~vaporator@108.red-80-29-88.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:50 hi, I want to create custom slime presentations for user defined classes. Can you point me to a direction on writing custom slime presentations? 21:12:38 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:39 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 21:12:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:40 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:40 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:40 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:40 -!- ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:40 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:40 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:40 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 21:12:46 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:49 gigetoo_ [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 21:13:17 I figured instead of using gui libraries for everything, slime can make a great UI for many kind of projects. 21:13:28 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:01 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 21:14:37 hi, I think what I wrote couldn't be sent because my silly ISP blocks default freenode port of erc. 21:14:55 I was wondering, is there some documentation or info on how to create custom slime presentations? 21:15:07 received your message fine 21:16:07 ah, thanks sthalik, btw thanks for the pointer about writing my own custom assoc, tho it turns out I didn't need one in that specific case. 21:17:04 so does any projects use slime as an alternative UI for programs? 21:17:23 why slime and no just emacs? 21:17:52 found Qt to be easy to use, but not with CL 21:18:30 sthalik: because slime provides a better layer of integration with CL 21:18:59 I figured I can partly use just emacs, and I can use custom slime presentations etc whenever possible 21:19:27 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 21:19:37 in order to make my libs better integrated with the workflow 21:24:01 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:25:49 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:58 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@12.27.66.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:30:51 sthalik: what is hard about using qt with cl? Just interested 21:31:11 prxq, smokeqt on windows 21:31:14 CRT snafu 21:31:26 and mingw abi 21:32:52 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:33 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 21:35:13 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 21:37:46 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:40:37 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:41:31 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:42:27 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:37 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:42:41 How can I `fmakunbound' a method? I've defined a method specialized on a class but now I don't want it anymore. I want the more generic method to be called instead. 21:43:53 you can easily remove it using the slime inspector 21:44:03 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:44:08 clhs remove-method 21:44:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_met.htm 21:44:16 if you need a programmatic way 21:44:36 adeht: Very cool. Thank you. 21:46:33 1+ 21:46:53 Oh, OK. you said "slime inspector", not C-c C-u. Silly didi. 21:48:28 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:13 -!- Loymoev [~Loymoev@host-64-158-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 21:53:20 -!- gigetoo_ [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:16 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:00:53 dsevilla [~user@111.Red-88-25-200.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:56 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:56 ASau` [~user@p54AFFE90.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:27 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFEA6A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:52 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:19 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:19:29 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 22:21:25 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:50 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:25:33 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 22:26:14 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:21 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has quit [Quit: gendl] 22:30:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:30:33 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:00 Newlisper [d0263ba2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.38.59.162] has joined #lisp 22:35:50 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:07 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 22:39:22 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:27 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has left #lisp 22:40:45 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6c70d.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:42:38 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:13 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:20 -!- Newlisper [d0263ba2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.38.59.162] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:51:24 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:53:10 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:56:20 -!- william-cushing [4cda7ae2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.218.122.226] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:56:32 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:57:53 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:03:13 -!- mtd_ is now known as mtd 23:05:01 -!- dsevilla [~user@111.Red-88-25-200.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:13 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.66.37] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:10:10 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.66.37] has joined #lisp 23:19:34 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has joined #lisp 23:19:45 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:32 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:23:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.49.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:55 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:15 Aix7 [~other@188.162.64.29] has joined #lisp 23:26:43 Hello. Is there a function like write-to-string but for string input it should produce id? 23:27:29 For example (write-to-string "a") => "\"a\"" but i want (srite-to-string "a") => "a". 23:27:45 Aix7: princ-to-string 23:28:16 kristof: Great, thank you. 23:29:02 -!- Aix7 [~other@188.162.64.29] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:18 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:23 WRITE-STRING? 23:29:30 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@31-146.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:36 w-o-t-s 23:30:21 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 23:33:53 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 23:34:05 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:30 francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has joined #lisp 23:35:31 I see in the rosetta code a lot of solutions in PicoLisp but when I closely examine the code it is garbage and I doubt many are just scam 23:40:24 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:40:50 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:06 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:09 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.249.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:47 Is there some history/rationale as to why the form (setf (a b) c) makes ``c'' the first argument to (defun (setf a) (x y) ...)? 23:43:57 &rest 23:44:04 &key 23:44:46 I see that makes sense, thanks. 23:46:29 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:49:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:04 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:18 k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:53:58 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:54:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:55:46 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:40 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:35 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]