00:01:21 JKaye: This is actually a somewhat common gotchya. Another way to experience it is when a project carries it's own dependencies in a subdirector, and you clone that project into a source registry directory set up with :tree. Now anything else that uses that dependency might get the surprise version 00:01:55 Vivitron: I see.. I can see how it would be easy to have something like this happen 00:01:56 Well, so I should stick with central-registry, at least it's simple and clear. 00:02:22 yeah i have no idea what the hell is going on with the new stuff. 00:03:57 Vivitron: Do you know how to change which .asd file asdf will use for the :btc system? 00:04:19 I assume there's a configuration somewhere 00:04:22 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host93.190-138-115.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:04:44 there's a chapter in the manual. 00:05:24 JKaye: the simpliest way is to push the directory onto asdf:*central-registry*, as I said three times already. 00:05:50 Unfortunately, due to the way I have things set up, using the central registry actually breaks the package load all together 00:06:02 So I'll have to fix this configuration even if I do want to use that methdo 00:06:06 method* 00:06:39 It's not possible to break anything with asdf:*central-registry*, when you push directory that contain only your systems. 00:06:46 JKaye: I mostly failed to understand the chapter in the manual Bike is referencing, so I mostly just keep only one version of a system where projects.conf can see it 00:07:09 I see 00:07:24 Well, I'll spend some time looking at it, and if all else fails I supposed I'll just rename the package and forget about it 00:07:33 Thanks for all of your help everyone 00:07:38 I'm sure I'll be back.. 00:08:22 pjb: Actually, one more question for you about eval-when. I uploaded another one of my files to the paste (http://paste.lisp.org/display/140297#4) 00:08:51 Here the built-slot function interns an accessor and exports it.. Should I be using something similar here? 00:10:15 Yes. 00:10:51 Only eval-when will not work her. 00:11:03 in defun it worked because progn conserves toplevelness. 00:11:07 But defclass doesn't. 00:11:33 Also, you will want to export both at compilation time and at load/execute time. 00:11:43 You should do it in defbtcclass instead. 00:11:44 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:11:51 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:12:21 intern and export the symbols there and then have build slot just use the symbol? 00:12:51 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 00:13:08 have build-slot return two values: the slot clause, and the accessor name, and defbtcclass collects the accessor names into an export list. Then it can do like in defbtcfun, with `(progn (eval-when () (export '(,accessor-names))) (defclass  ,slots)) 00:13:33 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:13:59 (defun build-slot () (let ((accessor (intern ))) (values (list slotname ) (list accessor)))) 00:14:13 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzzZ] 00:14:48 Makes sense 00:15:29 You said the reason for this is to preserve "toplevel-ness" - in that we want to make sure all of this stuff happens at compile time? 00:15:35 (defmacro defbtcclass  (let ((accessors '()) (slots '())) (loop for slotname in slotnames do (multiple-value-bind (slot slotaccessors) (build-slot ) (push slot slots) (setf accessors (append slotaccessors accessors)))) `(progn (export '(,accessors)) (defclass  ,slots )))) 00:15:51 Also, you will want to export both at compilation time and at load/execute time. 00:16:16 JKaye: non-toplevel eval-when is too complex. Nobody understand how it works. 00:17:07 JKaye: 'toplevelness' refers to the file compiler looking specially at 'top level' forms, which are forms with no containing forms, or forms contained by certain things that 'preserve toplevelness' like progn. eval-when is one of the things the file compiler deals with specially. 00:17:43 outside of top level eval-when only executes with :execute, at the same time as the code around it would. it's pretty pointless 00:18:29 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:18:38 So I guess that let is another one of those that preserves toplevelness then? 00:18:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:14 no, it doesn't. 00:19:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:20:10 it's basically only simple things like progn. if let preserved toplevelness you could have things at compile time referencing variables outside the eval-when an bla bla complicated. 00:20:13 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:21:03 locally, and macros that expand to such. 00:21:14 Okay, I see. I misread pjb's macro above and though that the eval-when was in the let 00:21:20 that was confusing me 00:21:34 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:22:00 k0001 [~k0001@host93.190-138-115.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:22:44 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm 00:23:12 Thanks! 00:23:16 JKaye: in macros you have to distinguish what's evaluted at macroexpansion time, from the result of the macro. 00:26:01 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:26:24 Are the results of the macro not just the output of the last form in the macro? 00:26:42 Not necessarily. 00:27:28 (defmacro m (x) (if (numberp x) (return x)) (let ((z (gensym))) `(let ((,z ,x)) (list ,z ,z)))) 00:28:02 The result of the macro can be the result of the first form of its body. 00:28:09 macro functions are functions like any other, you can do complicated control flow 00:28:23 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host93.190-138-115.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:26 I meant: (return-from m x), not (return x). 00:30:53 So in that example, all the expansion is really doing for you is making sure that the x expression is only evaluated a single time right? 00:31:13 Yes. 00:31:56 Okay, I see what you mea 00:31:58 mean* 00:33:11 (macroexpand '(m 42)) --> 42, T. (macroexpand '(m (incf x))) --> (LET ((#:G190214 (INCF X))) (LIST #:G190214 #:G190214)), T. 00:33:51 so that (let ((x 41)) (m (incf x))) --> (42 42), not (42 43). 00:34:01 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:36:13 ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 00:39:38 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 00:43:09 Gotcha.. I read about that in one of the books I've been looking at 00:43:21 Creating a new package that was configured correctly looks like it's taken care of my issues 00:45:48 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:47:44 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:48:06 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:53 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815a32.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:18 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d8161bb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06:21 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:07:20 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 01:07:46 -!- JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:08:52 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: continuation abandoned into perpetual nothing] 01:11:31 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 01:14:39 ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.212.102] has joined #lisp 01:14:50 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.212.102] has quit [Changing host] 01:14:50 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 01:15:21 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:18:39 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:19:26 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 01:26:43 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 01:28:27 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:44 thepreacher [~thepreach@55.34.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:34 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.241] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:56 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:52:12 -!- alexherb1 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:02 oxum [~oxum@122.164.105.247] has joined #lisp 01:56:31 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:22 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 02:00:34 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.242.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:56 michael_lee [~michael_l@117.22.207.23] has joined #lisp 02:01:26 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50ef2.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:35 harish [~harish@175.156.242.180] has joined #lisp 02:03:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:54 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50afe.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:07:58 harish_ [~harish@124.197.69.99] has joined #lisp 02:08:47 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.242.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:08:58 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@55.34.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:10:42 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:03 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12:03 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:13:39 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 02:14:12 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:15:42 -!- sellout [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:17:36 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 02:19:12 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:21 sellout [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:59 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:23:43 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:23:58 -!- blacklab` [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:56 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 02:28:24 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815a32.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:33:32 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:34:20 -!- rk[NOMNOMNOM] is now known as ryankarason 02:35:10 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 -!- syrinx_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:51 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@248.Red-83-54-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:03 -!- jk121960 [~jk121960@108-89-22-112.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 02:50:17 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:54:38 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6c871.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:54:57 -!- dkordic [~danilo@109-93-122-193.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:57:04 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F4DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:58:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6aa4b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:01:17 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 03:03:23 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:03:32 -!- screak [~ibota@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:05:36 thepreacher [~thepreach@55.34.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:39 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 03:05:41 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:12:38 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:19:27 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F4DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:50 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 03:24:25 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:24:39 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 03:25:09 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:25:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:25:50 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 03:27:06 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:25 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:27:51 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:29:46 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 03:34:05 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 03:37:41 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:40:08 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:44:24 -!- ism [~ism@p4FCD58B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:19 ism [~ism@p4FCD5F66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:52:19 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:52:38 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55:22 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-57-61.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:55:48 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-76-102-220-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:58 Guest63667 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:14 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:18 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 04:03:41 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:16 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 04:05:00 mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:47 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-76-102-220-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:07:26 -!- Guest63667 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15:08 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@55.34.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:21 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 04:19:30 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:22:03 antuirno [~antuirno@187.18.174.88] has joined #lisp 04:22:54 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:41 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 04:31:44 -!- antuirno [~antuirno@187.18.174.88] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:40:11 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:33 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-238-248.w109-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:43:49 Good morning everyone! 04:43:50 beach, memo from mathrick: sorry for disappearing, I got a migraine. Anyway, I forgot to ask why exactly you decided to move to gap buffers, and wouldn't gap buffers have the same problems with attaching data as flexichains? 04:45:13 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:13 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:34 minion: memo for mathrick: If one day we have millions of items and thousands of cursor in a single line, we can bring back the splay tree implementation. They can co-exist and each mode can choose which one is suitable. 04:45:34 Remembered. I'll tell mathrick when he/she/it next speaks. 04:46:15 beach: you wake up way too early. I'm on my way to sleep (and yes, that's way too late, but still) 04:46:15 mathrick, memo from beach: If one day we have millions of items and thousands of cursor in a single line, we can bring back the splay tree implementation. They can co-exist and each mode can choose which one is suitable. 04:46:30 Oh, yes, hi. 04:46:44 beach: I understand that, but the question is, what made you prefer the gap buffer? 04:46:46 The reason I changed it is that splay trees have much greater overhead (maybe as much as a factor 100). 04:46:50 ah 04:47:06 But they have excellent asymptotic behavior of course. 04:47:07 how do you solve the problem of data attachment then? 04:47:24 The line is the smallest unit of attachment. 04:47:33 So we still have a splay tree of lines. 04:47:39 that's not good enough 04:47:47 Well, the next level is the cursor. 04:47:48 we will need to attach things like marks 04:47:52 yes, yes. 04:47:58 There are cursors in a line of course. 04:49:16 If you really want to attach data to each and every item, we can come up with a representation for that too, but you will use like 32 bytes for each item then. 04:49:20 right, but are they the sole means of anchoring things to a given position on the line (position here seen as an abstract point between or on a character, and moving with it as edits happen, not necessarily the numeric index kind of "position", since that changes) 04:49:23 ? 04:49:48 beach: yeah, that's what I meant when I talked about level of indirection 04:49:51 NODE etc. 04:49:57 zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has joined #lisp 04:50:04 Yes, the cursor follows when the line is edited of course. 04:50:41 There are two kinds of cursors: left-sticky and right-sticky. 04:50:45 right, and there's no other mechanism for anchoring things, other than that alternative overheady representation 04:50:48 is that right? 04:50:57 As far as I know, yes. 04:51:06 OK 04:51:36 beach: another thing I didn't have the time to investigate, how do you browse a splay tree in-order? 04:52:00 mathrick: Depth-first search usually. 04:52:07 Very fast. 04:52:55 Yes, infix order, because the nodes to the left of the root are morally in lower positions and the ones to the right in higher positions. 04:53:18 A splay tree is just a binary search tree that is re-organized from time to time. 04:54:15 Surprisingly though, I didn't find any publications on using tree structures for representing sequences. Only for representing dictionaries. 04:54:38 I know ropes are a well-known tree-based sequence structure 04:54:59 Ah, yes, I have heard of that. Not read anything though. 04:55:12 I only investigated briefly today 04:55:34 Splay trees are attractive for editors because of the self-adjusting property. 04:55:47 Otherwise, any tree will do. 04:55:53 Like a 2-3 tree would do just fine. 04:56:22 beach: can splay trees work as a persistent structure though? Or are you thinking of another approach to undo (like a protocol for any command to reverse its effect)? 04:56:42 Good question. I would have to think about that. 04:57:04 Though I am now convinced that you do not want a persistent structure as a basis for (say) an undo function. 04:57:08 zippers are kinda interesting 04:57:09 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:57:16 beach: oh, why not? 04:57:20 ... because you typically don't want to remove what you inserted. 04:57:28 ... just re-insert what you deleted. 04:57:34 uhm? 04:57:41 I don't understand what you mean 04:57:49 OK, imagine the following scenario: 04:58:25 You edit a lot. Then you remove many lines. Then you insert for an hour. Then you realize that you should not have removed those lines. 04:58:58 If you have a persistent structure, you can get back the thing in any state you want, so you have a choice between what you inserted for an hour or what you accidentally removed. 04:59:09 Excellent, right? NOT! 04:59:19 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:10 It would be better to save all significant chunks that are deleted, and allow the user to insert them anywhere. 05:00:56 Who would want to remove inserted stuff as part of an undo function? You just remove it manually. That way you can select what you remove as opposed to letting the mechanism choose for you. 05:01:19 Anyway, I am still contemplating how to present that to the user. 05:03:28 *beach* thinks he probably realized the problem of existing undo-function by reading Alan Cooper's book. 05:04:30 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:04:58 *beach* also thinks mathrick finally fell asleep. 05:05:24 nope, reading 05:05:33 Ah! :) 05:07:51 beach: I actually want snapshots of earlier times, not just undo deletions. Insertions I do only make sense in the context of earlier deletions, so saying I can do it by hand is missing the point. It's the difference between CVS and git. Of course I could go through each change and see which ones logically fell together and thus reconstruct changesets in my head. But it defeats the point of having a tool keep history for me 05:08:50 OK, if you like. But then snapshots and typical "undo" scenarios are different. 05:08:59 advanced manipulation of changes between states as something more fine-grained than "restore the entirety of this state and nothing else" is very desirable, but that's on top of the basic functionality of having reliable snapshots 05:09:40 OK, I'll let you read up on the possibility of using splay trees for persistence. 05:09:52 beach: not to mention that half the time deletions are *caused* by insertions. I mark a region, then overwrite it with something else. I don't even know how you'd undo the deletion without removing the additions in that case 05:10:17 Yes, different scenarios. 05:10:51 I very often have the inverse situation. I do NOT want to remove what I inserted when I undo. 05:10:57 beach: will look into it. You're right in thinking that useful undo is more than just throwing *every* possible snapshot at the user, but I strongly object to the idea of treating deletions as more worthy of undoing than additions 05:11:04 right 05:11:21 which is why I'd like to see a more fine-grained control over it 05:11:55 mathrick: Sure, by all means give it some thought. I'll keep it on the back burner. 05:11:59 but I have plenty of situations in which I positively want to recover an earlier state precisely 05:12:23 beach: I'll probably throw in an issue on github tomorrow 05:12:24 I believe you. 05:12:33 Yes, that would be great. 05:13:44 Anyway, you will notice that the buffer PROTOCOL does not mandate any particular representation. 05:13:54 beach: also, undo-tree.el is an interesting case for what works and doesn't. I strongly believe in having a tree as the basic user-visible representation of the states, because every state should be recoverable, including ones you have undone 05:14:24 OTOH, while it can show changes between states as a diff, it lacks any machinery to operate on those diffs and apply them 05:14:29 which is a missed opportunity 05:15:00 I dunno if you use undo-tree.el, but if not, you should probably give it a try 05:15:03 I understand. I remember thinking about this in the past (many years ago) but I don't remember my conclusions. Failing memory and all. :( 05:15:11 OK, I'll have a look. 05:15:34 it takes quite a bit of muscle memory to switch over from Emacs's standard "redo is undoing an undo" though :\ 05:15:49 15 years of habit and all that 05:15:51 Heh, I can imagine. 05:16:20 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:16:35 -!- cools [~user@CPE0026f32ba2b0-CM0026f32ba2ad.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 05:17:16 beach: I think it's just called "memory", without qualifiers. I don't tend to recall my conclusions on tricky subjects I've pondered years ago, and I believe it's the norm. They wouldn't be tricky otherwise, and it's how human memory works 05:18:17 usually I'm happy if I can remember the *problem* I was considering with reasonable fidelity 05:18:54 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 05:19:36 Yeah, I am not worried about it. And It has given me 45 years to come up with tricks that help me. 05:20:29 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 05:21:13 beach: aight, sleep is claiming me now or very soon though, so good day to you and good night to me 05:21:22 Yes, good night. 05:21:25 See you later. 05:22:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:22:29 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:27:00 hillgreen [~hillgreen@106.120.127.15] has joined #lisp 05:30:09 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:13 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:36:01 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:38:12 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 05:40:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:45:42 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:46:57 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:43 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:46 alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:50:59 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:54:22 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:57:30 -!- francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:19 -!- hillgreen [~hillgreen@106.120.127.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:58:22 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 05:59:10 -!- fortitude [~fortitude@cpe-74-78-191-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:25 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:02:41 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:02 teggi [~teggi@123.21.198.146] has joined #lisp 06:22:40 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:32:03 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:35:50 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:37:03 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:38:21 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has joined #lisp 06:47:38 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:49:22 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.222] has joined #lisp 07:00:56 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.20] has joined #lisp 07:08:00 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 07:08:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:11:53 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:14:46 ggole [~ggole@203-59-160-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:18:46 -!- dented42 [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:21:17 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:21:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:23:09 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:23:15 Hi. Is there any library that allow to record audio stream from microphone (in Windows)? 07:24:39 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:27:15 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D4AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.222] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:31:38 ASau [~user@p5083D4AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:32:46 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:35:44 k0001 [~k0001@host53.186-125-103.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:37:55 STilda: ffmpeg or sdl3, but I'm not sure if you'll find bindings for those libraries, maybe check at cliki.net 07:39:01 -!- galiley [~user@212.72.211.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:41:27 ok, there is one for sdl, will try it. thank you. 07:43:34 STilda: Do you think it would be hard to just write such a thing? 07:44:42 splittist [uid17737@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-egoqrkxbgumtbbdd] has joined #lisp 07:44:48 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:46:05 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:03 beach: I have this stuff on C++. Making it as dll and calling it from lisp is an option. I wanted to see an example how it can be done in lisp way. 07:49:01 beach: and ffi is a thing that I have never tried :-) 07:49:07 STilda: I see. Though if it isn't hard to convert what you have to Lisp, that would then benefit other people who would like to work with audio. Just a thought, thout. 07:51:12 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:29 *though. 07:51:38 beach: good point. I also need sdl for graphics, so will see what will be my choice. 07:51:41 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host53.186-125-103.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:51:45 OK. 07:52:11 STilda: What kind of graphics, if you don't mind my asking? 07:53:34 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Iceape 2.7.12/20130119143918]] 07:57:24 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:06:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:07:54 nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has joined #lisp 08:09:25 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.37.120] has joined #lisp 08:12:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:13:24 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.37.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:23 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 08:15:33 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:15:49 vaporatorius [~vaporator@248.Red-83-54-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:33 beach: I would like to try real-time 3D visualization of a voice. How to transform voice to graphics is another question but first time will do something simple. Do you think it is possible to make in lisp? 08:17:26 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:18:04 STilda: I don't know. It would be good though. 08:18:16 Nice project, though! 08:18:26 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 08:19:51 If it's possible in C, I'd say it's necessarily possible in Lisp via FFI... how would one do audio capture in C? 08:20:30 samskulls: I think he meant "without FFI". 08:20:49 Even then, wouldn't it just be reimplementation of C code? 08:21:38 beach: in the case I will have dll that fills mem buffers with audio data, what would be better: allocating those buffers on lisp side or on C side? 08:22:07 samskulls: Sure. In fact we could all just use C rather than Lisp. Why bother? 08:22:42 STilda: I am afraid I don't know much about FFI. 08:22:54 samskulls: anyway I need FFI to call system stuff, right? I am in doubds if lisp perfomance will be enough for such real-time thing? 08:23:25 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has joined #lisp 08:23:37 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:23:41 I think it is. 08:24:33 beach: sorry, You think perfomance will be not an issue? 08:24:58 Performance shouldn't be much of an issue, as long as you're not allocating and GCing like crazy. In my experience, using foreign memory doesn't cost much over doing things in C. 08:25:24 STilda: The other day I was thinking of creating a choir from the voice of a single person by 1. Removing any vibrato, 2. correcting the pitch, 3. Imposing many slightly different variations in pitch and vibrato, and 4. summing the result. 08:25:57 STilda: For sound, I think performance will not be an issue. 08:26:37 beach: nice to here, this inspires me. What happend with your project? 08:27:08 STilda: Oh, that's just one of those things that I toss around in my mind when I have nothing else to do. 08:27:16 It's not even a project yet. 08:27:59 *beach* has too many projects as it is. 08:28:29 beach: ok, I see. Sort of the same thing for me. 08:28:50 Oh dear :) 08:33:59 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 08:36:24 samskulls: when I use foreign memory, does it mean I need to copy data into lisp structures or I can just read numbers from C-array? 08:37:17 STilda: you can read from foreign memory with cffi:mem-ref. 08:37:42 ...Assuming you use CFFI, that is. 08:40:53 samskulls: good, thank you 08:41:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:26 STilda: If you are worried about performance, you should read the research articles by Didier Verna. He essentially shows that you can get the same performance out of a goo Lisp system like SBCL as you can from C, given the right declarations and such. 08:52:22 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.178.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:52:26 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-135-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:53:07 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-252-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:51 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.222] has joined #lisp 08:56:48 STilda: For instance "How to make Lisp go faster than C" IJCS volume 32, number 4, december 2006. 08:59:32 good morning 08:59:55 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:03:17 -!- resttime [~rest@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: resttime] 09:04:53 Hello jackdaniel. 09:05:07 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07:26 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 09:09:18 _0Ace [~hs366@94.254.45.76] has joined #lisp 09:10:33 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.37.120] has joined #lisp 09:10:51 clhs ldb 09:10:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm 09:15:07 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:17:27 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3116.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:40 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.178.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:22 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.37.120] has left #lisp 09:19:58 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:07 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:20:07 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:20:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:31:22 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 unnaturalism [~antiproje@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 09:32:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:32:31 -!- unnaturalism [~antiproje@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 09:32:31 unnaturalism [~antiproje@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:34:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:41:54 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3116.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:52:36 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 09:52:49 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3116.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:00:53 nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-58-87.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:01:44 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:03:56 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 10:04:53 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3116.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:06:13 francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:26 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:13:10 -!- samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:13:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:16:02 -!- harish_ [~harish@124.197.69.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:18:11 is nimrods macro system equivalent to lisps in power? http://nimrod-lang.org/talk01/slides.html#%2843%29 10:18:37 s/macro system/meta programming 10:19:50 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 10:23:36 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:46 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:26:11 eigenlicht: Hard to say, given that we don't know how to measure that kind of power. 10:27:08 beach: the slides say it has it all except fexprs, which don not part of modern lisp dialects anyway 10:27:13 eigenlicht: Since it doesn't use S-expressions, I am willing to bet that it is a lot harder to use for DSLs. 10:27:19 don't seem to be part* 10:27:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:27:50 eigenlicht: It looks like a one-man project by someone who was unable to get used to S-expressions (and so had to sacrifice a lot of power) and who doesn't believe that Lisp can be as fast as a statically-compiled language. 10:27:55 I can be wrong of course. 10:27:58 beach: there is a example in the slides: http://nimrod-lang.org/talk01/slides.html#%2817%29 10:28:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:29:21 stardiviner [~stardivin@120.199.210.235] has joined #lisp 10:29:49 eigenlicht: Sorry, it doesn't give me more insight. 10:29:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:27 why should #lisp care about some newfangled languages? 10:30:37 beach: slides 17-19? seems straight forward to me (though one could still argue about readability, which is subjectiv anyway) 10:31:10 stassats: why not? some people program in more languages than just lisp and have an open mind 10:31:41 why not they join a specially designed for that purpose channel? 10:32:13 eigenlicht: Slide 18 suggest single dispatch. Again less powerful. 10:32:21 I am, but there seems to be no one online right now who can answer the question with 100% certainity 10:32:37 eigenlicht: You'll have to wait until someone shows up. 10:32:38 *hitecnologys* agrees with stassats on that matter. 10:32:54 I agree with stassats. Let's stick to the topic. 10:32:55 This channel is supposed to be about CL. 10:33:15 sorry for interrupting your idling then 10:33:58 Well, we were writing code, not idling. 10:34:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:35:05 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:40:53 root_empire [~michael_l@219.145.47.251] has joined #lisp 10:42:50 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@117.22.207.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:52:55 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:59:19 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:04:08 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 11:06:13 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has joined #lisp 11:06:25 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 11:12:26 back with a CL-specific question 11:12:38 is function overloading and generic function the same? 11:13:12 no 11:13:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:13:55 stassats: what's the exact difference? looked at simple examples of generic functions and it seems to be possible with function overloading, too 11:14:07 simple example meaning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_function 11:14:55 generic function can have varied method combinations, with auxiliary methods 11:15:49 stassats: meaing one method of a generic function, can call another method of the same generic function? 11:15:59 no 11:21:11 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 11:21:27 loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:60e2:928a:4ce9:c820] has joined #lisp 11:21:48 stassats: is call-next-method what you're refering to? 11:22:01 no 11:22:13 i'm referring to specific concepts, you can look them uo 11:22:15 p 11:22:44 currently reading this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 11:22:51 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:22:55 paragraph "method combination" and below 11:26:24 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:27:55 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@120.199.210.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:32:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-9-162.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:33:22 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:34:02 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815a32.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:25 ykm [~ykm@180.148.50.172] has joined #lisp 11:40:59 -!- william-cushing [4cda7ae2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.218.122.226] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:42:21 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 11:44:32 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-9-162.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:44 Nuupi [~IceChat9@a91-154-110-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:46:40 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:48:32 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:55:04 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-116-44.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:08 tolk [~user@host2.190-227-169.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 12:07:49 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[zzz] 12:12:33 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:58 any cffi gurus here? 12:14:22 im having trouble with running a c function from lisp: the function takes a filename as argument. When called from native C, a relative filename works. When called from lisp, the same relative filename (from the same dir as before) does not. 12:15:20 tolk: What do you mean "does not work"? 12:15:41 the function returns a pointer. In plain C, it returns a valid pointer. In lisp, it returns NULL 12:15:53 but it works when called with an absolute filename 12:16:33 (i.e. returns a non-null pointer) 12:17:35 STilda: gstreamer is a good multimedia framework with cross-platform presence and one without any usefully available bindings right now. It's not the smallest thing you can use for microphone capture, but it's very flexible and powerful, so useful if you need to do more than just dump a .pcm 12:17:59 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:18:06 it's the SDL_RWFromFile from SDL, actually 12:18:30 tolk: did you check the current directory you have set in your lisp image? 12:18:32 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:19:04 slime-pwd reports the correct directory 12:19:05 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:23 what about http://linux.die.net/man/3/getcwd 12:19:25 ? 12:19:26 and probe-file finds the file with the relative name just fine 12:19:53 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:20:57 you mean calling that from cffi? 12:21:00 yes 12:21:23 didn't try that 12:21:26 PROBE-FILE works with *DEFAULT-DIRECTORY-DEFAULTS*, which is not necessarily going to be reflected in the C working dir 12:21:41 oh 12:21:52 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 12:22:15 :( 12:22:19 tolk: slime-pwd returns *default-pathname-defaults* 12:23:12 how to make cffi take the same directory? 12:23:16 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.42.25] has joined #lisp 12:23:16 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.42.25] has quit [Changing host] 12:23:17 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:23:19 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:23:30 right, and unlike me, stassats got the name right 12:23:44 tolk: do you have to pass a relative pathname? 12:23:56 tolk: chdir() 12:24:56 it's for a simple lispbuilder-sdl test i'm doing. i have to keep specifying absolute filenames for each audio file i use. it's pretty annoying. 12:25:30 you don't have to specify them, just don't pass relative pathnames into c 12:27:03 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:12 for instance, this (sdl-mixer:load-sample "sound.wav") fails because "sound.wav" is relative 12:28:17 how should i fix that? 12:28:24 *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* is one of my favourite names in the spec, together with :WILD-INFERIORS 12:28:44 tolk: (truename "sound.wav") is one way 12:29:10 oh, nice 12:29:30 what other ways are there? 12:29:30 rather, (namestring (truename "sound.wav")) 12:29:47 oh, that gets rid of the #p 12:31:19 if i wanted to make the C have the same dir as lisp, should i use chdir() from cffi then? 12:32:42 yes, but you need to ensure it happens every time you call into lisp, or at least every time *D-P-D* changes 12:32:57 i see. somehow i thought they would be automagically synchronized 12:33:15 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.146.124.156.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 12:33:45 they are not logically equivalent 12:33:50 i see 12:34:00 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F4DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:35:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:35:38 hey thanks for the tips, guys 12:36:22 junstrix [~user@116.1.3.236] has joined #lisp 12:36:35 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 12:36:38 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 12:36:51 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 12:37:28 tolk: and, say, you want to do save-sample, truename wouldn't cut it since sound.wav doesn't exist yet: (namestring (merge-pathnames "sound.wav" (truename *default-pathname-defaults*))) 12:37:55 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38:10 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 12:39:39 add^_ [~user@m176-70-211-242.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:42:05 so that's more general then 12:42:55 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 12:44:18 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:56:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:59:48 cajetanus [~cajetanus@public-gprs516886.centertel.pl] has joined #lisp 13:03:03 -!- cajetanus [~cajetanus@public-gprs516886.centertel.pl] has left #lisp 13:03:46 davazp [~user@178.167.254.154.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 13:12:10 tolk` [~user@host114.201-252-67.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:14:35 -!- tolk [~user@host2.190-227-169.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:12 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:15:59 eigenlicht: Still here? 13:16:11 beach: yes 13:16:26 eigenlicht: Overloading is a compile-time mechanism and generic function dispatch a runtime mechanism. 13:16:58 eigenlicht: So they look the same syntactically, but they behave differently semantically. 13:16:59 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 13:17:18 beach: oh, didn't think about this yet. I thought it's just about having the possibility to implement arbitary method combination, which is not possible in function overloading 13:18:00 eigenlicht: Yes, that is true too. But that's a CLOS specific feature. 13:18:01 thanks 13:18:19 eigenlicht: The intrinsic difference is what I just said. 13:19:00 I see 13:19:19 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 -!- tolk` is now known as tolk 13:20:54 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 13:23:57 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:37 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:39:50 mathrick: looks like gstream is too much for my current needs, but thanks, good to know qbout it 13:40:54 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 13:41:08 STilda: right. If you ever come to write bindings to it, keep in mind it's based on GObject, which is best wrapped differently than ordinary C (and CL-GTK2 at least already has a layer which does most of it for you) 13:42:27 good :-) 13:42:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:44:53 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:48:12 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-211-242.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48:59 ejbs [~user@h82-117-107-254.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:29 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:50:48 Hey, guys. Why's this function slower than generic +? http://paste.lisp.org/display/140308 13:51:04 It doesn't make any sense to me. Test code is just: (time (loop for i from 0 to 100000 do 13:51:05 (add i i))) 13:51:53 and how do you compare it with +? 13:52:31 if you do (time (loop for i from 0 to 100000 do (+ i i))), then the addition is just optimized away 13:52:52 Ooh, right. Yeah, okay. I forgot that you can do that 13:52:56 D'uh 13:53:06 Would inlining the add optimize it away as well? 13:53:14 it would 13:53:18 I did already suspect that it was my benchmark that sucked 13:55:49 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:56:29 moreover, (loop for i from 0 to 100000 do (+ i i)) would be able to figure out the type better than your fixnum, since it knows that the sum of (+ 100000 100000) is still a fixnum 13:57:35 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 14:00:51 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 14:01:45 LiamH [~none@96.231.221.245] has joined #lisp 14:04:59 stassats: What if I: 1. Inline add 2. change (add i i) to (the fixnum (add i i))? 14:05:25 just inline would be enough, but that's all regarding sbcl 14:08:42 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:20 add^_ [~user@m176-70-211-242.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:11:35 -!- Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:38 *ggole* would expect DCE to eat (loop for i from 0 to 100000 do (+ i i)) entirely 14:14:01 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 Does sbcl replace (length +constant+) with number at compilation time? 14:15:39 ...doesn't seem to, though 14:15:41 yes 14:15:49 Er, referring to DCE, not hitecnologys question 14:16:02 stassats: that's good. Thanks. 14:18:02 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:18:19 stassats: is there a way to make it do the same thing for variables? 14:18:33 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:18:45 that wouldn't make sense 14:19:07 for constant variables, it already does 14:19:08 I know that sounds weird, just asking this out of curiosity. 14:19:59 Yes, conservatively 14:20:06 But there are inline functions so I thought maybe it's possible to make length "inline". 14:20:15 Whether any Lisp compiler actually does so is another question 14:20:59 length is already inlined when possible 14:22:16 Can I force it to be inlined when it's not? 14:22:28 no 14:22:29 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:22:41 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:22:55 I see. 14:23:25 nialo- [~yaaic@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:26:23 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 14:27:44 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:30:06 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-71-174-212-30.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:51 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:41 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.222] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 14:36:23 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:37:01 beach: re: presentation types, it's going to be fundamentally hard to do in a LispOS (or in any other situation where more than one flat image is involved). Accesing another process's presentations means they need to share the underlying type, but that's more or less impossible to do in the general case for security reasons 14:38:13 *perhaps* you could arrange so that type *definitions* from the same code could be shared between processes (or more precisely, security domains) without sharing methods. But that also runs into problems when you start using non-standard metaclasses 14:39:43 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815a32.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:39:53 mathrick: "presentation types"? Google only came up with different types of PowerPoint presentations 14:40:11 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:07 mathrick: What do you mean by "process" here? The standard one, i.e. with a different address space? 14:45:31 ejbs: This is CLIM terminology. 14:46:50 nialo- [~yaaic@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:07 beach: Aah, thanks 14:47:38 ejbs: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23.html#_1124 14:48:03 beach: Yeah, I found it :) thanks 14:48:07 OK. 14:48:19 ejbs: Very powerful concept in interaction design. 14:50:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:08 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 14:52:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:55:41 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-225-143.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:55 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:56:34 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:05 -!- kliph` is now known as kliph 15:04:59 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 ,s 15:10:01 mathrick: There will be many system-wide types, such as file, directory, user, date, duration, temperature, printer, editor buffer, PDF document, PNG image, MP3 sound, MPEG movie, etc. Also, one and the same user probably writes several applications with the same type: member, company, employee, address, phone number. 15:10:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:28 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.254.154.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:30 beach: yeah, I know, but things which are naturally pluggable (like "PDF document", which should be installable by the appropriate handler) will need a sane and secure sharing mechanism 15:15:57 beach: and no, I don't necessarily mean separate address space, that's why I switched to "domain" later 15:16:24 OK. 15:16:50 although my thoughts were to have partially overlapping hierarchical address-spaces, to allow for things such as redefining core MOP classes and methods 15:17:11 I address that in my document. 15:17:22 I suggest using separate environments. 15:17:23 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-78-77.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:17:44 yeah, I need to catch up on what you've added 15:18:08 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:23 It seems to be hard for people to grasp per-user environments, probably because environments are so implicit in CL. 15:18:32 beach: though entirely separate environments make it hard to allow overriding system definitions when you actually mean it 15:18:42 No 15:18:46 no? 15:18:58 There would be a system-wide environment inherited by all. 15:19:30 Per-user environments can override it, but a user with the right privilege can modify the system-wide environment. 15:19:47 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-78-77.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:16 ah, I'd need to see how exactly you see it implemented. If I understand the L4 address spaces correctly, we might even be talking about the same thing, since there's no requirement to remap addresses in a child space, so I see it being used for protection, not translation 15:21:31 and thus most accesses wouldn't need to flush the TLB 15:21:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:22:01 No, I don't mean separate address spaces. 15:22:14 I mean separate environments, i.e. mappings from names to objects. 15:22:16 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-065-177.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:49 right, but "objects" need to live somewhere, which means addresses 15:22:53 ... like I said, it appears that this idea is hard to grasp. 15:23:06 mathrick: Yes, but they all live in the same address space. 15:23:09 and protected address spaces are necessary to ensure capabilities cannot be forged 15:23:16 No 15:23:20 That's not true. 15:23:22 howso? 15:23:39 You just don't provide the functionality to forge a capability. 15:24:24 well, "don't provide" means not just "not expose", but "make sure a determined attacker cannot replicate it from available primitives" 15:24:47 if addresses are in the open, you can attack them 15:24:54 .. as in, don't allow for any user to write a machine program and execute it. 15:25:05 although Mungi, from what I've seen, relies only on sparsity of the address space 15:25:06 Yes, so addresses are not in the open. 15:25:12 hmm 15:25:14 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-78-77.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:25:28 I guess 15:25:35 mathrick: I address this as well. 15:26:05 mathrick: When you need to write machine code, you essentially get a single dumbed-down CL function with the restrictions of a Unix process. 15:27:11 yeah 15:27:15 ... i.e., you must use external objects indirectly with "object descriptors" or similar. 15:27:32 kruhft [uid17870@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vtgzjxketvyfslst] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:14 beach: yeah, or a TLB. If you have a separate process, you might just as well 15:31:26 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-78-77.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:31:48 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:32:23 mathrick: I put this in just to satisfy people who would think this to be necessary. I am not going to spend too much energy on it at the moment, because all the rest is more important. 15:32:41 you may disagree, of course. 15:33:04 -!- junstrix [~user@116.1.3.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:07 right 15:33:38 Code_Man [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:34:25 tolk` [~user@host233.201-253-220.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:35:05 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 15:35:56 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 15:36:01 -!- tolk [~user@host114.201-252-67.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:37:33 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 15:38:10 tolk`` [~user@host5.190-226-92.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 -!- tolk` [~user@host233.201-253-220.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:41:36 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:42 -!- tolk`` [~user@host5.190-226-92.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:06 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 15:43:53 -!- victor_lowther [uid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmyroyehxnyyyctf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:12 victor_lowther [uid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-entkzfevdxdbsapk] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 15:50:38 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 -!- loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:60e2:928a:4ce9:c820] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:15 -!- Code_Man [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:52 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:01:17 I need some advice. I have a few projects of the kind "anybody with basic knowledge of Lisp and with 10 minutes per week free time can help make Lisp more useful", but I don't know how to recruit people for it, if that is even possible. Does anyone have any ideas? 16:02:42 Here is one such project: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html 16:02:51 beach: blog on planet lisp with a brief description of the projects and a link to a page with more information/ repository location. 16:03:23 LiamH: planet lisp has more members than #lisp? OK. 16:04:23 Members I don't know, viewers are the important thing. And, it's stable - people can look at it for months and it will be indexed by search engines. 16:04:40 LiamH: Good point. 16:05:04 *beach* now has to figure out how to blog on planet lisp. 16:05:54 beach: What happened with your project (I forget the name) to provide libraries for implementing CL? 16:05:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:14 LiamH: SICL. Doing quite well, thank you. 16:06:32 beach: you need a blog somewhere, ask Xach to add it to planet. 16:06:50 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:50 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:58 LiamH: Yes, I see. Thanks. 16:07:14 Is there a grand index of beach projects somewhere? 16:07:20 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.1.14, cl-who 1.1.3, flexi-streams 1.0.8, FiveAM 1.2 16:07:36 LiamH: On GitHub/robert-strandh 16:07:38 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:00 beach: heya :) https://github.com/leventguel/mcclim-stuff 16:09:06 LiamH: I worked for a year or so on SICL, but then mathrick got me excited about CLIM3/CLIMatis and Second Climacs again, so the past few weeks that's what I have been wroking on. 16:09:39 beach: Has any compiler adopted SICL in whole or part? 16:09:53 LiamH: Yes, the SICL compiler :) 16:10:12 LiamH: Lately, I have been concentrating on creating a new CL system. 16:10:19 Would be cool to see wider adoption. 16:10:32 LiamH: Indeed. 16:11:42 oleo: Wow, lots of stuff. Not sure how to figure out what you did yet. 16:13:18 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:49 LiamH: I am aware of a few projects out there that use SICL components, but I can't name them to you from memory. Either way, things are going as I expected, so I am pleased. 16:14:05 beach: make a dirdiff....after cloning... 16:14:22 beach: OK 16:14:27 beach: and if you see any relevant changes.... 16:14:55 maybe i should just putt my current quicklisp dir totally on there.... 16:14:59 oleo: Oh, OK. Thanks. I won't deal with it right now because I am pretty tired, but I will do that eventually. 16:15:05 cause there maybe other changes in other stuff too... 16:15:18 no it's ok deal whenever you want with it... 16:15:31 Great! Thanks again for taking the time. 16:15:35 C6248 [~Ni50M50@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 16:15:37 np 16:16:45 -!- C6248 [~Ni50M50@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 16:17:40 slarti [~anonymous@66.225.113.18] has joined #lisp 16:20:12 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-91-113.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:31 oleo: cloned it and installed "dirdiff" for starters. 16:20:47 :) 16:21:08 i'm in the process of moving my whole quicklisp tree there ...snapshot of it as of now... 16:21:21 OK. 16:23:45 -!- ykm [~ykm@180.148.50.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:47 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-065-177.mycingular.net] has quit [] 16:27:05 beach: per your question, there's also Reddit 16:27:59 I got over 300 views from lispm posting a link to my blog 16:28:18 which was a surprising spike 16:28:52 beach: a more organised presence would be helpful. Last I checked, your personal page was horribly out of date 16:31:19 ThePhoeron: Oh, I see. Thanks. 16:31:34 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 16:31:43 mathrick: The one on labri? Yes. Indeed. 16:31:58 I am currently making a new one on metamodular.com 16:32:06 I should redirect from labri to it. 16:33:52 *beach* thinks there is so much to do and so little time :( 16:35:58 ok done, https://github.com/leventguel/quicklisp.git 16:36:34 Wow, moving fast! Great! :) 16:38:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-70-102.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:40:44 *beach* needs a butler :( 16:40:53 haha 16:41:23 yeah, we could all use our own personal Jeeves 16:41:44 Terrible, isn't it? 16:43:05 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:45:57 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:47 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 16:47:56 harish [~harish@124.197.69.99] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 beach: I've actually been looking for more projects to contribute to 16:48:28 -!- slarti [~anonymous@66.225.113.18] has quit [Quit: slarti] 16:48:29 ThePhoeron: Good to hear. 16:48:35 still going through the code for SICL 16:48:43 ThePhoeron: I can give you a few dozen of them :) 16:49:05 awesome 16:49:32 ThePhoeron: Great! Though, if you are interested in that, it is probably best to ask me, and state what you would be interested in doing, and what your level of competence is. 16:49:43 -!- francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:34 beach: well, I'm a professional developer, I work mostly on business software, lots of web front ends 16:51:43 ThePhoeron: After the McCLIM experience, I guess I am much more cautious about contributions, and since SICL is still in flux, I feel I need to control it a bit more. 16:51:54 my main interest is quantum computing 16:52:14 ThePhoeron: Oh, I have nothing for you in that domain :) Interesting though! 16:52:29 beach: very few people do :) 16:52:36 True. :) 16:52:49 code speaks for itself though 16:53:13 so, I'd say judge my competence on my repos 16:54:06 I didn't mean for it to sound like an employment interview. I would trust your word. 16:54:20 -!- ejbs [~user@h82-117-107-254.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:49 ThePhoeron: If you are interested in business stuff, I recently wrote "Clobber", a very simple alternative to object prevalence. 16:54:54 here's a fun project: debug the remaining threading deadlocks for SBCL on windows 16:55:08 stassats: "fun"? 16:55:24 stassats: you are so cruel sometimes :) 16:55:26 of course, don't you like debugging? 16:55:39 stassats: I love debugging. 16:56:59 stassats: Debugging is the application of traditional "expert knowledge", so I feel very competent during the process. However, CL implementations often let me down in that I feel I don't have the tools to do my job. 16:57:04 and it will be immediately useful to all the people using sbcl on windows 16:57:27 stassats: Not sure what to comment on that one. 16:57:40 yes. sadly, I avoid using windows at all costs 16:58:10 "sadly"? I would say "luckily"! 16:58:14 it's more like banging your head against the wall until it's solved 16:58:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:30 stassats: Now that's not a great experience. 16:58:31 "solved" is the fun part 16:58:36 slarti [~anonymous@66.225.113.18] has joined #lisp 16:58:51 sadly for the windows users, not for me personally 16:59:09 i knew you wouldn't consider it, more fun for me! 16:59:17 ThePhoeron: In my opinion, we should convert the Windows users instead. 16:59:36 it's amazing how stubborn they are 16:59:45 yeah, I know. 17:00:32 ThePhoeron: Here is my basic opinion: A user who is willing to pay for windows should be willing to pay for a commercial CL implementation as well. 17:03:19 -!- slarti [~anonymous@66.225.113.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:45 k0001 [~k0001@host53.186-125-103.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:04:07 yeah. and, to me at least, it seems that LispWorks caters more to Windows users for that reason 17:04:33 i like to live in my own world too 17:07:10 stassats: It's all about priorities. Nothing personal. 17:08:26 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:10:23 pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:11:11 The only reason I'm bothering with CL on Windows is because I need to deploy a binary to windows users. 17:11:13 Munksgaard [uid17912@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-upjouofzwwhpwakj] has joined #lisp 17:11:16 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:36 Shinmera: No apologies needed. I know there are constraints in the real world. I am just privileged enough not to have to care about most of them. :) 17:15:32 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:15:35 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 Shinmera: People with more radical opinions like mine would say something like "no you don't need to do anything, because you can always change to a different job". 17:19:15 Shinmera: And they would not be that wrong, actually. Everything we do is a matter of personal priority. Cost is of course a significant factor. 17:22:26 Also, I know it is a great pass-time to make fun of people like Richard Stallman, but I must admit that his personal choice in life was orders of magnitude more courageous than I would ever even have contemplated. 17:23:21 (incf beach) 17:23:52 Thanks Fade! 17:25:24 *beach* thinks that perhaps this was on his mind just because he just made a bank transfer to the FSF for his membership fee 2014. 17:29:46 beach: Sorry, was away for a while. Fortunately I don't have to deal with it due to my job. It's a project I made for a community and releasing for windows is as such still a deal, unfortunately. 17:31:17 beach: For the rest of the things I do I generally don't have to worry about platform compatibility, which is a great relief. 17:31:30 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:33:15 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB1E01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:58 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 dcxi [~dcxi@32.Red-81-37-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:43 JKaye_ [~jordan@174.59.197.213] has joined #lisp 17:36:58 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@66.30.11.90] has joined #lisp 17:37:01 -!- JKaye_ is now known as JKaye 17:38:10 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-91-113.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:38:13 -!- _d3f [~gnu@vm5.rout0r.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39:23 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:39:35 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:39:38 Shinmera: Great! Good for you. 17:39:44 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:55 Shinmera: You do realize though, that, even though my remark was addressed to you, it was of general interest. :) 17:41:09 -!- pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Divertimento in D major K.136] 17:41:40 beach: Sure, I just blab a bit too much sometimes. 17:42:22 Shinmera: Sounds great to be involved in community work, though. 17:43:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:43:33 deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:14 Oh, and while we are talking about "communities", another popular opinion is that "there is no Lisp community". This of course is complete nonsense. I don't see the purpose of pretending otherwise, other than adhering to the supposedly "cool" opinion of the authors of this idea. 17:45:13 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@66.30.11.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:16 pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:46:46 I suppose the question is about how "closely tied" the people are for it to be regarded as a community. 17:47:00 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-94-19.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:37 Regarding that, are there any other places for Lispy things that are worth lurking aside from comp.lang.lisp and here? 17:48:23 dca_ [~dca@146.185.164.188] has joined #lisp 17:48:57 Shinmera: I am sure you are right. But I think this common opinion is part of a pattern of self-flagellation of our community. I don't think we have anything to apologize for, and I think we are doing fine. 17:51:06 Shinmera: My hunch is that there are two communities (with overlaps of course); the commercial Lisp users and the others. The commercial Lisp users seem to use the lisp-pro mailing list, and there is some activity there. The others hang out here. 17:51:24 Shinmera: But I probably don't have the full picture. 17:51:43 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:47 ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-94-19.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:50 -!- JKaye [~jordan@174.59.197.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:30 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:54:08 theAlgorist [~theAlgori@host57-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:55:15 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:15 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:00:37 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 18:01:19 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 Shinmera: ... and if anyone wants "close ties", I'll be happy to talk about that. 18:03:45 Dan Barlow wrote in public that SBCL threads were a direct result of the "libre software meeting" in Bordeaux. 18:04:14 McCLIM was largely developed during those meetings. 18:04:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:05:19 And I imagine there is a reason for the name "Bordeaux threads". 18:05:57 *beach* should stop now because he thinks nobody is listening anyway. 18:06:42 I was, I'm just way too new to Lisp to be able to contribute much to a topic concerning something as deeply involved as its community. 18:08:00 Shinmera: Sure. All I am saying is that there *is* a community, and that the requirements for becoming a member are fairly rudimentary. 18:08:23 what are the reqs 18:08:30 how many virgins do I need to sacrifice 18:08:38 Guys, have symbolics machines had sound cards? 18:08:49 *ThePhoeron* is just making coffee, will respond shortly 18:09:00 deadghost: Silly! 18:09:23 hiato [~hiato@196-215-121-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:09:28 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB1E01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:09:51 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 hi 18:11:34 Hello theAlgorist! 18:11:40 I've got a problem with sbcl under freebsd, Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 0 bytes available, 16 requested. 18:12:12 I started sbcl from slime with (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2048 --control-stack-size 2048") in .emacs 18:12:44 deadghost: Wizard status might be preferred. 18:13:48 *beach* suspects he does not any sort of formal wizard status :( 18:13:59 *not have 18:14:05 I don't think even RMS has formal wizard status 18:14:16 it might be you are loading so many libs that your dyn-space is already almost exhausted.... 18:14:25 and then ther's not much left for gc.... 18:15:09 i have that here too... 18:15:15 sometimes 18:15:57 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:16:21 deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:55 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.221.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:18:21 *beach* has the impression that 90% of the problems reported here have to do with using foreign functions, yet, that doesn't seem to provoke any general ideas. 18:18:41 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-58-87.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:19:02 beach: I know there are a few other Lispers here in Toronto, but I only know one other personally, and he only did some lisp in school 18:19:35 it can feel pretty isolated here, being such a strong Java and .NET city 18:19:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:19:59 ThePhoeron: yeah, I know what you mean. When I spent a year in Auckland, there were about 5 lispers within a radius of a 3h flight. 18:20:15 ThePhoeron: In Europe, it is much better though :) 18:21:01 yeah, I've honestly considered moving to Berlin primarily for that reason 18:21:11 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:21:12 my German is really out of practice though 18:21:43 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:28 that won't be a problem chiefly because so many speak english here.... 18:22:32 almost perfectly.... 18:23:12 ThePhoeron: Having said that, we know have a very devoted lisper in Auckland: Abhishek Reddy! 18:23:13 so you can always switch in between if you feel uncertain ... 18:23:13 My CS professor didn't even know of Lisp when I asked him about it. :( 18:23:21 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:42 Shinmera: that's, painful... 18:23:48 ThePhoeron: Bah, I learned French by teaching in French, and I learned Vietnamese by working there. 18:24:33 beach, oleo: I used to speak and write in German, so I'm sure I could pick it up again fast 18:24:40 -!- root_empire [~michael_l@219.145.47.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:24:58 ThePhoeron: Yeah, it's not that hard if you know English. 18:25:11 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:18 nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-228-66-76.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:25:40 s/we know/we now/ 18:26:01 *beach* feels the fatigue. 18:26:40 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-62-159.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:26:47 the stress 18:26:47 pnpuff, memo from pjb: my advice would be to read a compiler book. CPTT "Compiler Principles Techniques and Tools" (dragon book 2nd edition) is nice. 18:26:47 pnpuff, memo from pjb: there's a lot of things in compilers, so reading a real compiler code would be overwhelming. But reading good toy examples can help. 18:27:10 oh, thanks pjb 18:29:05 pnpuff: What are you working on? 18:33:56 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:36:01 how can I prevent sbcl to recompile libraries when I quickload a package? 18:37:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-9-162.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:39:25 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 18:41:14 JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:34 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-103-77.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:24 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:51:35 theAlgorist: that should not happen to begin with. Which package gets recompiled? 18:53:49 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 -!- irq0 [~irq0@amy.irq0.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:10 Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has joined #lisp 18:58:34 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.105.247] has quit [Quit: ...] 18:59:04 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:59:13 -!- pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:59:16 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:59:41 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:01:42 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 19:02:04 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-238-248.w109-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:02:10 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-226-252-184.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 Is there a specific order in which functions within a package are loaded outside of the file order when :serial t is provided? 19:03:48 (referring to quickload here) 19:03:55 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-9-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:04:03 Is Common Lisp strict or nonstrict? 19:04:05 top to bottom in each file? 19:04:08 kristof: strict 19:04:22 Bike: But I can define special forms, which are nonstrict, right? 19:04:32 Although not fexprs... 19:04:37 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:38 kristof: you can't define special forms 19:04:44 Oh, I can't? hrmm. 19:04:57 Bike: Would it enlighten me to google around and discover the reason for that design choice? 19:04:58 kristof: you could define a macro to do some non-strict things but the semantics are essentially strict 19:05:19 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:05:28 Bike: Yes, but a macro is compile time 19:05:34 usually 19:05:53 kristof: you're not going to find much as a design choice in common lisp specifically, but you could learn something from the debates on strictness, sure 19:06:02 Bike: That's what I thought, but it seems like there is one function that isn't getting compiled for some reason.. At least, if I attempt to quickload it tells me that the function doesn't exist, but if I open the file, compile the single function and then quickload the package everything works 19:06:16 kristof: no, i mean macros to do promises and such. which gives you something that syntactically looks like non-strict computation. 19:06:21 Bike: No, I'm quite certain that there was an essay floating around about the design choice to remove fexprs from Common Lisp 19:06:25 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:06:30 Bike: Ah, okay. 19:06:37 kristof: oh, that's not a matter of strictness, but yes, it's on whatshisname's site. 19:06:50 kristof: perhaps "the theory of fexprs is trivial"? 19:06:57 that's a later one. 19:07:21 if you want the CL design choice one that's a historical thingie. on. what's his name. did an article about namespaces and such too. 19:07:31 well, it's not like 'fexpr' is a common search term, anyway. 19:07:35 I would like to read any related material if there's an earlier interesting paper. 19:07:51 JKaye: but the rest of the functions in the file are loaded? 19:07:59 prxq_: osicat, cffi and others 19:08:23 Bike: No, the load fails because it can't find that function 19:08:30 dcxi, kristof http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html 19:08:38 JKaye: oh, so you need the function at compile time? 19:08:40 Bike: Kent Pitman's "Special Forms in Lis- 19:08:43 .........oh beat me to it :) 19:08:56 Oh, indeed, I remember reading that. 19:08:56 Bike: Correct 19:09:07 Thanks for the link. :) 19:09:11 special forms are funny things. in scheme oleg wrote quote as a macro. 19:09:17 JKaye: wrap it in eval-when. 19:09:21 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220.134.193.4] has joined #lisp 19:09:40 (of course, oleg's quote doesn't have the same semantics as CL's in all respects, but it does the main things you expect from quotation) 19:10:14 Hrm. Silly question, but does this paper go in my "References -> Computing" bookmarks folder or my "References -> Lisp" bookmarks folder? :/ I need to reorganize this heirarchy sometime. 19:10:38 it's more lisp specific. the one dxci mentioned would be more general 19:10:48 i recommend for papers you get a tag system (i say, not having adopted one myself) 19:11:26 prxq_: then I've got a nasty problem with heap! 19:11:28 Bike: Is it not a conclusion of this paper that fexprs are bad in general? And I would argue that when talking about Lisp, you're just talking about any language with procedural abstraction, at the AST level 19:11:59 Or maybe "fexpr" doesn't really mean anything outside of lisp 19:12:10 Bike: Thanks, that did the trick. However, in another file I have a similar setup with no eval-when and that seems to be working.. Can you explain what could cause that to happen or why one function would get loaded but not the other? 19:12:13 kristof: it's arguing in general but there are better general cases 19:12:21 Or point me somewhere that explains this kind of compile time stuff 19:12:34 kristof: nah, you could adopt fexprs to non-lisps, they'd just take ASTs 19:12:53 JKaye: you have a function in another file that's needed at compile time by another function in the same file? 19:13:09 Correct 19:13:33 i think i'd have to see it. 19:14:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140312 19:15:14 Which is basically the same thing I had in the file that was not working.. A function definition that was used in a macro later in the file 19:15:44 JKaye: i don't see a /compile-time/ dependency there 19:16:07 Ohhh 19:16:16 I see 19:16:20 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-226-252-184.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:30 kristof: fexprs and lazy comp are only superficially similar. fexprs are like lazy comp but with the ability to syntactically introspect thunks, but there are better ways to implement laziness 19:16:30 The macro in the other file calls the functions rather than including them in the code it generates 19:16:39 Makes sense! 19:17:07 JKaye: right. it's actually pretty straightforward to understand i think. 19:17:39 It is now that I'm thinking of it in that way. Since I call the macro it attempts to expand and call the function immediately 19:17:52 JKaye: note that by default (iirc) asdf compiles /and loads/ files one after the other, so if one file depends on another you can have a compile-time use of a function from the dependency, in the latter file. 19:17:58 JKaye: yup. 19:18:31 Cool 19:18:33 Thanks for the help 19:18:55 Bike: I wasn't actually talking about lazy computation, I was just talking about the ability to not-evaluate certain forms in general like the standard special forms. It seems like a lot of power but if it was problematic enough to be removed from Common Lisp then I'm sure it's not that great :P 19:18:59 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:25 no problem. 19:20:06 kristof: it's certainly interesting. the main issue is that it's near impossible to do anything ahead of time. for example, given a form you can't really tell which variables in it are free. 19:21:11 Bike: That probably messes with scope too, right? 19:21:13 You can't even tell whether anything will be evaluated at all. 19:21:22 kristof: yes 19:21:40 kristof: i have some of my own ideas on this front but they're very pie in the sky 19:21:47 Bike: Care to elaborate? 19:21:48 (that is: write a code-walker that actually does anything useful other that annotating "it *might* be evaluated") 19:22:06 dcxi: Is that useful? 19:22:19 ...Probably for optimization 19:22:22 it's useful to be able to compile code, yes 19:22:24 I don't know anything about compilers. 19:22:31 Bike: If you look at that paste, I don't actually need any of those gensyms do I? 19:22:31 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220.134.193.4] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 19:22:39 kristof: i won't trouble you with it, it's all very underformed 19:23:29 JKaye: i think you can remove g just by making the keyword ahead of time 19:23:45 Bike: Okay. Odd question, but what do you think is the next step for Lisp? From a language perspective. 19:23:54 I don't want to think that Common Lisp is the end of the road. 19:24:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:24:20 Bike: And I mean compiled, large languages. 19:24:34 kristof: integrating what the haskell people are doing 19:24:56 Bike: Does it necessarily have to be the same stuff that Haskell is doing, or can it be roughly similar, like what Shen's doing? 19:24:57 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:23 I actually thought Shen was entirely interpreted, but it turns out that they have (or are making) a version for SBCL, so that's interesting. 19:25:36 i for one don't give a damn about using my type system as logic but recursive types are great 19:26:07 kristof: obviously not the same stuff that haskell is doing, because that stuff is for haskell. but there's no shame in learning from your ppers, that's all 19:26:09 Bike: Isn't a statically analyzed type system good for correctness? 19:26:35 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:51 sure 19:27:05 like all the nice warnings sbcl spits up 19:28:06 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:34 -!- ggole [~ggole@203-59-160-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:31:06 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:32:28 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F4DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:45 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9F4DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:35 theAlgorist: is it really recompiling or just loading the libs? Can you paste output somewhere? 19:39:19 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:39:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:40:38 kristof: actually, the problem (given fexprs) is twofold. 19:41:15 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:41:36 dcxi: Yeah? 19:41:41 kristof: you can't be sure of anything until runtime, and unfortunately you don't have time to analyze at runtime either (because "eval" needs to be fast). 19:42:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-97-196.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 dcxi: Prepare yourself, for this might be an idiotic thing to say, but: by limiting the amount of special forms we have in the language, we can hardcode those cases into the compiler so that static analysis is still possible? 19:42:49 prxq_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140313 19:43:05 why are people so eager to change common lisp? 19:43:16 because it's fun, stassats. 19:43:56 stassats: The cult of good enough extends hear too, I guess. 19:43:59 *here. 19:44:29 i don't expect some whippersnappers to come with anything better 19:44:58 I didn't plan on coming up with something better, but I do in fact prefer to have a finger on the pulse of PL theory. No harm in it. 19:45:37 kristof: it's an interesting thought. I'm not sure how it would work in practice (that is: how do we limit the fexprs a user can define?). 19:46:34 fortitude [~fortitude@cpe-74-78-191-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:38 dcxi: I didn't read the paper but this -> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4093 <- apparently does that. 19:46:54 kristof: it does not. 19:46:59 is #lisp a venue for discussion PL theory? 19:47:08 Bike: Pardon me. 19:47:15 Oh, Kernel. 19:47:29 stassats: it's a convenient place to talk in between CL discussion. 19:47:39 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:47:43 Kernel doesn't do that, although it does fexprs with lexical scope which is quite interesting on its own. 19:48:36 Bike: convenient for whom? not for me 19:48:53 stassats: By all means, change the subject. 19:49:05 There are at least three people here, however, who are enjoying this discussion. 19:49:15 i'm simply wondering, maybe #lisp is not what it is, and i just shouldn't visit it anymore 19:50:11 stassats: because it's like an helpdesk? 19:51:57 well, i can't expect things to remain the same, and i'm liking the discussions in #lisp less and less in the past couple of weeks 19:53:12 stassats: I'm sorry if I've somehow offended you by pursuing this subject but there's nothing inherently anti-common-lisp in discussing some theory. Besides: the discussion of fexprs was because I had noticed it had been removed from common lisp and I wanted to understand why (so that's relevant to CL) and the discussion of typing was because I'm confident that any programmable programming language can support 19:53:14 it quite nicely. 19:54:07 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:55:19 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:10 Shlohmo [~shlmrahim@g231204042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 <|3b|> kristof: #lisp has a history of preferring silence to off-topic, #lispcafe was cerated for the people who prefer off-topic to silence 19:58:33 <|3b|> kristof: the lack of activity on that channel suggests they are a minority though 19:58:34 |3b|: I'm sorry, I didn't know that. 19:59:17 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:21 I'll be careful about that from now on. 19:59:27 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 20:00:23 Didn't know about #lispcafe, sorry for going offtopic. 20:02:00 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 20:02:49 Any recommendation for an object database (not considering AllegroCache)? 20:04:58 there isn't any one solid database i would feel like recommending 20:05:17 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:20 Fenlort [~Fenlort@APoitiers-654-1-192-95.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:10:09 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-127.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:12 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-127.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:38 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-065-177.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:24 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:14:26 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:15:36 LiamH [~none@96.231.221.245] has joined #lisp 20:22:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:26:16 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@78.46.188.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:26:44 gemelen [~gemelen@78.46.188.214] has joined #lisp 20:28:10 Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:13 Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has joined #lisp 20:30:34 fisxoj [~fisxoj@24-212-142-77.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:36 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:08 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@24-212-142-77.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:54 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:32:18 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-160-0-102.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:34:45 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 20:35:50 -!- mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:36 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:40 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:38:59 archonix [~archonix@92.247.23.38] has joined #lisp 20:39:01 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 20:39:23 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:37 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:56 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:00 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.42.25] has joined #lisp 20:41:00 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.42.25] has quit [Changing host] 20:41:00 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:41:42 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:41:54 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:04 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:23 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815a32.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.168.24] has joined #lisp 20:46:37 -!- _0Ace [~hs366@94.254.45.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:03 _0Ace [~hs366@94.254.45.76] has joined #lisp 20:49:05 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-160-0-102.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:48 LiamH1 [~none@96.231.216.85] has joined #lisp 20:50:25 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-065-177.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:38 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.221.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:51 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 20:52:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:31 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 20:54:29 zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97792.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:01 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-121-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: The great inequality of life: nothing > money] 20:58:15 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-211-242.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:23 macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 Bike [~Glossina@24-221-35-141.pools.static.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 21:02:22 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:33 stassats: I'm fixing my circuit solver software 21:02:49 good for you 21:03:09 yes, writing it in cl was actually a good choice 21:03:20 gsll is just fantastic 21:04:35 Thank you. 21:04:42 LiamH: ? 21:04:51 heh 21:04:54 LiamH: ah ok! 21:05:13 LiamH: seriously, gsl is good and gsll is very robust 21:05:37 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:48 LiamH: working with matrices is a joy :) 21:05:56 Posterdati: Good. I'm in the process of breaking up Antik into separate systems, and contemplating doing that for GSLL. 21:06:36 Some people think loading the whole library just because they want one part (e.g., linear algebra) is too much. 21:06:52 ngz [~user@91.224.148.150] has joined #lisp 21:07:45 mmmh, I think that you can leave the possibility to have all functionality in one library 21:08:16 OK, noted. 21:08:28 even if a boost-like library would be fine too 21:09:03 I would keep it in one repository, and likely retain a "gsll" system that loaded all the (new) subsystems. 21:09:22 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:10:18 I do not recall, is gsl capable of sparse matrix? 21:10:51 Psterdati: No, but I seem to recall that someone wrote a GSL-compatible sparse matrix package. 21:11:06 it would be nice to add that functionality 21:11:15 Posterdati: Or at least I looked into sparse matrix libraries. 21:11:52 Antik-compatible contributions accepted. 21:14:28 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:29 Posterdati: what do you use from GSLL? Just linear algebra? 21:16:32 _d3f [~gnu@vm5.rout0r.org] has joined #lisp 21:16:43 for now linear algebra only 21:17:18 but since I'm dealing with a circuit simulator, I could need interpolation/spline too 21:17:18 So, you're really using BLAS in GSLL. 21:17:27 yes 21:17:59 If I could figure out to use the optimized BLASes (like ATLAS) I'd do that. 21:18:04 *how 21:18:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:18:48 -!- rk[zzz] is now known as ryankarason 21:20:42 x(n) = (hA(n)+B(n))^-1 * (h k(n) + Bx(n-1)) 21:21:04 system is like 21:21:19 Ah 21:21:43 (hA(n)+B(n))*x(n)=h*k(n)+B(n)*x(n-1) 21:21:57 so I used the linear algebra solve functionality 21:22:41 -!- Shlohmo [~shlmrahim@g231204042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:49 LiamH: re ATLAS - what is the issue? 21:24:24 Shinmera_ [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:24:46 prxq_: Never used it, don't know how. 21:24:59 May be no issue at all. 21:26:55 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24-221-35-141.pools.static.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:35 resttime [~rest@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:56 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:58 Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:02 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:36:31 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:47 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 l` [~Ni50M50@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 deadghost [~deadghost@pool-173-55-80-153.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-252-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:39:38 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 21:40:51 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 21:41:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:13 -!- l` [~Ni50M50@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 21:42:33 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:43:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:48:17 Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has joined #lisp 21:49:40 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97792.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:53:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:19 Bike [~Glossina@24-221-35-141.pools.static.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:45 -!- JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:04 JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:55 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:45 ASau` [~user@p54AFFA8A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:08:55 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D4AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:25 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:53 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[SSS-S] 22:15:41 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:18:23 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6c871.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:44 prxq [~mommer@x2f6c871.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:35 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:20:14 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:17 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-228-66-76.inter.net.il] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:38 nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-228-66-76.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:26:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host53.186-125-103.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:27:28 -!- archonix [~archonix@92.247.23.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:28:13 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:35:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:38:31 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 22:38:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:45 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24-221-35-141.pools.static.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:39:53 Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has joined #lisp 22:40:01 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:55 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 22:45:13 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:50:48 -!- JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:15 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-228-66-76.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:24 JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:42 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:02 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 22:52:57 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 22:55:36 -!- JKaye [~jordan@c-174-59-197-213.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:02 -!- rk[SSS-S] is now known as ryankarason 23:08:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 23:08:19 Bike_ [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has joined #lisp 23:08:38 -!- ngz [~user@91.224.148.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:11:04 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:11:21 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:56 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:15:37 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:15:50 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@24.221.35.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:16:09 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:16:13 -!- Fenlort [~Fenlort@APoitiers-654-1-192-95.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:14 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:06 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:34 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:50 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:59 nialo [nialo@c-24-147-120-102.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38:15 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:41 Is there an intrinsic reason to use, in the metaobject protocol, an object oriented approach to "messing" with language constructs? It seems sort of arbitrary to me. 23:42:23 That was a silly question, ignore me. 23:48:20 oxum [~oxum@122.164.105.247] has joined #lisp 23:55:21 protist [~protist@229.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:56:18 -!- _0Ace [~hs366@94.254.45.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:56:47 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:11 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp