00:00:10 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@68.Red-83-42-196.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:02 -!- Adeon is now known as MaryPoppins 00:05:23 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.93.34] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 -!- ranek [~konny@p57A5902D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:27 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-dlpvqeknaoifnwmk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:07:39 ozialien_ [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:19 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:59 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-32.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:08 cory786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:36 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:19:38 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@187.208.137.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:47 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.254.100.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:31:05 -!- qiemem [uid14911@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nreezyaxmaohkxlm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:33:07 Hy. Can I use defstructure inside a function (defun)? 00:34:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-209-183.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:34:11 <|3b|> if you mean defstruct, yes, but it might not do what you want/expect 00:34:26 If you mean defstruct, then yes. However, you will then not get the benefits of the compiler knowing about it at compile time. 00:35:32 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:35:51 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-59-232.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:19 Is there a better alternative to get a strucutre inside a function scope? (and get advantage of make- and named parameters like :param) ? 00:37:09 Kromitvs: defstruct executed in a function does not in any way put its definitions in the function's scope. 00:38:03 defstruct (and in general everything whose name starts with "def") makes global definitions 00:38:18 <|3b|> it also won't do anything until you call the function 00:38:49 <|3b|> so any use of the structure within that function won't work, since the accessors etc aren't defined yet when the function is compiled 00:39:23 |3b|: hm? accessors are functions, they can be defined late, so it'll work 00:39:31 <|3b|> not for structures 00:39:45 <|3b|> implementation of setf for structure slots is unspecified 00:40:23 ah 00:40:43 *|3b|* supposes some things might work, but don't remember which are required to 00:40:53 *|3b|* mostly doesn't use structures 00:41:55 Kromitvs: anyway, regardless of the above language lawyering, putting def inside a function is generally not useful or wise unless you know what you're doing 00:41:56 <|3b|> bad idea either way, even if you can find something in the spec to support it working :) 00:42:08 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:42:09 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:05 ok. So, what should I be doing? 00:46:17 just put defstruct at top level 00:46:35 <_tca> is there a reason you NEED them to be structs? 00:46:42 if you feel it's an implementation detail, well, that's what non-exported symbols and, if you must, % prefixes, are for. 00:46:51 <_tca> or a reason you cant just put the type as a parameter 00:48:50 well, this is a school project, and I'm unsure the teatcher will be loading my whole file or just copying my function. I wanted to have everything inside to be on the safe side. The only alternative I can think of is let, but it has some shortcomings when compared with a full structure... 00:48:53 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.237.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:32 maybe pastebin your code so we can see what you're using it for 00:49:53 echo-area [~user@123.120.237.231] has joined #lisp 00:50:24 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vethvwqusnprpdyi] has joined #lisp 00:53:20 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:53:53 I haven't done that part yet. In short, I'm making a (far fetched) variation of the game "dots and boxes" (some times called "vertex picking") and I need to keep vertexes, arcs, lists of vertexes, etc. And it would be easier to have some kind of abstraction over that data. 00:54:10 *vertices 00:55:12 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 00:56:17 that sounds like you should be writing several functions, not stuffing the whole thing in one function 00:57:57 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58:41 I'm making several functions, but hopping to joint them all in a single one at the end with labels 00:58:46 ew 00:59:01 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:02 ikki [~ikki@177.224.112.55] has joined #lisp 00:59:40 not good? I thought this would be sort of an OO approach... 00:59:51 ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:25 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:01:42 that's certainly not the usual way to express OO in CL. 01:02:23 the advantage of keeping your top level definitions short is that they can be understood, and tested or modified, in isolation 01:02:36 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 01:04:07 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:05:39 Yes, I've noticed that much, debugging... But isn't there some efficiency advantages in using the same variables and sequence of code, instead of calling different functions (change of processor context, copying values...) 01:07:12 no 01:07:25 (1) that's the compiler's problem, not yours 01:07:33 (2) first rule of optimization: don't do it 01:07:42 (3) you can always declare functions as inline 01:09:13 <|3b|> if you can't assume competence from your instructor, i hope you aren't paying much for the class :p 01:10:30 I have only some notions of optimizing in C. You're telling me they don't apply in Lisp? Like, instead of calling (structure-key b) twice, create a new variable and call it only once, and use the new variable twice. 01:10:56 oh, sure, that's a reasonable thing to do 01:11:07 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:11:13 but that's partly because it's _just good coding practice_, to not repeat things 01:11:27 (or to, if you find yourself repeating things, recognize it's a pattern and abstract it) 01:12:15 But what you were proposing to do constitutes writing a bizarre and contorted program on the _hypothesis_ it would be faster. 01:12:57 above all else, write clear, straightforward code. then see if it's too slow. 01:14:33 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:14:33 question: fork() will break sbcl if there is more than one thread. Can I fork from a process with a single-thread, and then spawn threads so long as the child-process doesn't fork? 01:16:21 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:16:34 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:43 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:16:47 Kromitvs: in both C and Lisp, a good compiler will eliminate common-subexpressions like that 01:17:18 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:23 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-76-102-220-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:18:11 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:31 <|3b|> jasom: maybe if they know you only have 1 thread 01:19:14 <|3b|> though i guess neither language has threads 01:20:05 |3b|: neither language? I'm talking lisp in both parent and child 01:20:13 <|3b|> don't think CL has any equivalent of volatile, so not sure how much it is allowed to optimize that sort of thing 01:20:25 <|3b|> jasom: i meant skipping memory accesses 01:20:34 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:11 |3b|: ah, yes. 01:21:35 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:21:43 Ok. Thanks for the advises. I will talk to my teacher (I'm probably being over zealous). And I will investigate CLOS (it's been in the todo list for to long). 01:23:48 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 01:26:52 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:28 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:41 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 01:32:44 bloody-bitch [~Rob@135.23.80.105] has joined #lisp 01:33:02 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.237.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@177.224.112.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:33 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-162-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:40 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-142-111.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:37:29 xol``` [~user@host185.190-30-168.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:39:36 -!- xol`` [~user@host175.200-82-119.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:48:46 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@83.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 01:55:33 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.153.211.115] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 01:55:58 |3b|: I'm not up on C11, but in C99 and older the compiler can assume that any object with a non-volatile type will not change except through a function call, a direct access, or through a valid alias. 01:59:09 mmmiguuell [mmmiguuell@186.222.72.24] has joined #lisp 02:04:27 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.201] has joined #lisp 02:07:29 another thing is that if you have user-defined function f-1 calling user-defined function f-2, then since CL allows you to redefine functions, any compilation of f-1 assuming two calls to f-2 can be combined is incorrect (unless you recompile/deoptimize on redefinition) 02:09:10 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vethvwqusnprpdyi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:11:11 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:11:32 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gwmjpbzkcdwkajda] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:16:18 -!- mmmiguuell [mmmiguuell@186.222.72.24] has quit [] 02:16:18 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:18:55 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 02:20:04 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:21:03 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-golfaobjmkcirlrn] has joined #lisp 02:22:09 fantasticsid [~user@101.228.184.73] has joined #lisp 02:23:06 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cejlcawsvkoqwvvz] has joined #lisp 02:23:06 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:23:43 desophos_ [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:52 askatasuna [~askatasun@111-223-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:24:25 kpreid: unless you inline 02:25:01 Yes. All I'm saying is that you can't assume CSE happens for user-defined functions by default. 02:25:02 kpreid: if it's not declared notinline, then it can inline the calls and redefining the function may not change the behavior of functions that call it 02:26:45 cite? that's true for recursive functions (defun f () ... (f) ...) but not in general, as far as I know 02:27:58 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 02:32:02 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:34:30 A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file. 02:35:05 The definition of a function that is defined and declared inline in the compilation environment must be the same at run time. 02:35:37 So same file + no notinline => can assume is the same, and different file, declared inline => can assume is the same 02:39:52 got it 02:40:37 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50a6b.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:33 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af503e2.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:43:34 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:45:52 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a7b.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:11 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50a6b.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:50:53 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:31 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:53:33 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6ad11.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:55:07 -!- desophos_ [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:56:04 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.129.238.137] has joined #lisp 02:56:28 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:40 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f694a8.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:00:54 ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-217-89.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:24 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 03:02:31 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:06:19 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-217-89.iusacell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:10:29 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:10:46 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 03:11:10 -!- guyal [~anonymous@75-27-242-104.lightspeed.psdnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 03:12:14 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:19:00 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:23:45 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 03:24:00 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:26:13 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 03:27:29 -!- fantasticsid [~user@101.228.184.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:33:12 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has joined #lisp 03:34:26 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 03:37:03 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50b40.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:13 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a7b.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:40:53 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:43:51 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:49:16 ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-217-155.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:01 -!- ism [~ism@p4FCD4BCB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:55:42 ism [~ism@p5794F2A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:57:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-217-155.iusacell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:58:46 mathrick: If you're around: Have you or Strandh discussed yet how many and what sorts of design choices you're going to implement from current successful L4-based operating systems like Mungi? 03:59:16 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 04:02:11 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:02:25 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:28 fantasticsid [~user@101.228.184.73] has joined #lisp 04:07:39 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 04:12:31 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:19:52 -!- MaryPoppins is now known as Adeon 04:21:51 Does it make sense to have closures around generic functions or methods? 04:22:57 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:23:11 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:23:12 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:37 drmeister: What do you mean "does it make sense"? As in "is it guarnateed to work"? 04:26:47 Yes. 04:29:15 -!- bloody-bitch [~Rob@135.23.80.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:29:31 francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:217b:91e0:c3e7:2c64] has joined #lisp 04:31:45 it's supposed to work, as far as I know. There is no real difference between the closure established by a DEFUN vs. a DEFMETHOD 04:32:30 drmeister: How's the compiler coming? 04:33:40 kristof: I'm working on speeding it up (putting more stuff on the stack) and splitting the compiler into phases. 04:33:42 -!- fantasticsid [~user@101.228.184.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:34:43 drmeister: Does that mean you're finished with most of the features or is this a bit of a sidetrack, optimizing the features you have? 04:36:28 kristof: It's a fully compliant Common Lisp compiler as far as I can tell. I'm still missing definitions for about 100 Common Lisp symbols when I last counted a couple of months ago. Stuff like the bit operations are missing. 04:36:49 It compiles CLOS - that's a pretty stringent test. 04:37:49 Sweet! HOw long have you been working on it? 04:39:01 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@111-223-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 04:39:15 About two years. 04:39:22 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 04:40:40 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-37-201-129-88.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:41:17 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.28.43] has joined #lisp 04:41:54 Oh, that's certainly a lengthy project. 04:42:20 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 04:45:23 It's just a part of my plans. 04:45:43 They've been going on for 15 years. 04:45:57 fantasticsid [~user@101.228.184.73] has joined #lisp 04:46:37 so if two years is lengthy, then... 04:46:49 drmeister: Care to elaborate on the larger extent of your plans? 04:47:50 I'm a synthetic chemist - I have a lab and we develop nanotechnology. This software is to help us design nanostructures that cure disease and speed up chemical reactions. 04:48:12 Fascinating! 04:48:38 Molecular metaprogramming - molecules that make molecules - designed with the help of the best language for metaprogramming. 04:48:39 drmeister: What facets of Common Lisp have been invaluable in your field of work? 04:48:48 Oh, that answers my question, I suppose 04:48:56 drmeister: cool! what was it that prompted you to start on your own compiler for CL? 04:49:15 And one that targeted LLVM, no less 04:49:20 There were no suitable ones when I wanted one. 04:49:46 drmeister: None of the commercial implementations were satisfactory? 04:49:57 which criteria were you interested in? 04:50:28 Seamless interoperation with C++. 04:51:01 interesting. yes that's a big one 04:51:06 2) Easy access to low level code. 04:51:14 3) A personal understanding of how compilers work. 04:51:56 My Common Lisp interoperates with C++ and the first library that I exposed to it was the LLVM C++ library. 04:52:29 very nice 04:52:36 I wrote a Common Lisp interpreter and in that I wrote a self-hosting Common Lisp compiler that generates LLVM-IR using the C++ api - that is then lowered to native code by the LLVM library. 04:53:04 very, very nice indeed. 04:54:29 drmeister: Do you have a project page? 04:54:39 I use the ECL Common Lisp source code so it's based on a lot of tried and true Common Lisp code. The low level code is all written from scratch (with a few attributed pieces translated from ECL like the pathname code - ugh) in C++. 04:56:01 kristof: Not yet - I don't have the time to deal with it. I'm going to open source it but i have a few more things to straighten out. 04:56:46 Speeding it up for one. Garbage collection is another. 04:57:25 drmeister: What are the difficulties involved in having interoperability with C++ and having a garbage collector at the same time? 04:57:59 I can fill this one out: many 04:58:06 I would imagine 04:58:50 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 04:59:33 if you write the interpreter from the beginning with garbage collection in mind, you won't really have a problem 04:59:39 other than designing it 04:59:55 I'm using the Ravenbrook Memory Pool System MPS - http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ It shouldn't be too bad. They put in a patch for me to deal with C++ pointers and multiple inheritance. I'll be testing it in the next couple of weeks. 05:00:02 last time I wrote a lisp interpreter in C++, I made the mistake of using locally constructed atoms 05:00:44 it took some time to change all those lines to allocations 05:01:04 drmeister: very cool 05:01:13 and you say your main field is actually medicinal chemistry? 05:01:28 I have a seriously powerful trick up my sleeve as well. I exposed the Clang AST traversal library to Common Lisp - so I do semantic refactoring of my C++ source code. It's very useful. 05:02:38 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:03:14 I am very impressed, to say the least 05:04:26 This allows me to write programs to do source-to-source translation, fix bad apis and identify globals and static variables that need to be rooted by the garbage collector. It also allowed me to write a program to automatically identify in-object roots. 05:04:48 Well, that's certainly beyond me. 05:05:03 I'd be interested to see how your optimization turns out in a couple of weeks, though. =) 05:08:30 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:08:35 drmeister: so your path is CL -> LLVM IR -> LLVM Optimizer -> assembler -> machine code ? 05:08:40 or are steps skipped? 05:11:28 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:09 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:13:09 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:26 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:18:27 Yeah - except I don't have to deal with anything past LLVM-IR other than lining up optimizers in the FunctionPassOptimizer 05:19:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:20:31 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 05:20:52 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:21:16 Although there are a lot of tricky problems to solve. LLVM is designed for compiling C-like languages - not dynamic languages like Common Lisp. 05:21:44 the fact it can target ARM could make it useful to mobile developers... mmm 05:23:19 Yeah, but in practice, LLVM IR isn't very cross platform, anyway 05:25:25 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:59 LLVM is a really nice library. I think the system I'm writing is a really nice platform for exploring LLVM-IR. You get very high level CL programming capabilities and the very low level LLVM-IR mixed together. 05:26:34 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 05:27:44 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:15 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:31:27 Good-night. 05:31:33 *drmeister* drags himself off to bed 05:32:45 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.129.238.137] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 05:33:10 alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:32 shifty [~user@114-198-34-143.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:37:21 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:43:16 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 05:45:06 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.211.113] has quit [Quit: ...] 05:48:25 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:48:28 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:49:10 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:49:53 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:50:26 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:57 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: "", said the cow] 05:53:07 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:11 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:57 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:56:09 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:59:16 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:02:01 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-142-111.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:02:56 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 06:07:31 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:07:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:09:16 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.28.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:13:46 guyal [~anonymous@75-27-242-104.lightspeed.gldlca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:05 -!- guyal [~anonymous@75-27-242-104.lightspeed.gldlca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:14:24 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:14:39 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:45 -!- william-cushing [80202773@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.32.39.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:23:43 oxum [~oxum@122.164.254.141] has joined #lisp 06:25:08 strobegen1 [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 06:27:57 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:28:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.110.190] has joined #lisp 06:32:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:44 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:15 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:33 bloody-bitch [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 06:48:59 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:09 hello how can I compare a float and an integer 06:49:12 ? 06:49:22 what do you mean by "compare"? 06:49:27 because with equal 1 and 1.00000 is not the same 06:49:40 they're not the same because they're not the same. 06:50:08 you can truncate or round the float to an integer 06:50:14 -!- francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:217b:91e0:c3e7:2c64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:21 Bardamu: use =. 06:50:23 hm... in the other hand I can use = 06:50:28 yes 06:53:23 -!- bloody-bitch [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:58:16 Bardamu, Depending on where the float comes from it might be slightly off do to float precision errors. It might be better to do something like (< 0.00001 (abs (- some-float some-int))) 06:58:42 er, (< (abs (- some-float some-int)) 0.00001 ) 06:59:18 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-golfaobjmkcirlrn] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:52 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6467C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:34 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9C136.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.110.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:10:05 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:10:27 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:10:55 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:11:36 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-cxjvlboszadmdcjq] has joined #lisp 07:11:57 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:57 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:11:57 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 07:12:30 Petit_Dejeuner: I like your nickname :D 07:12:40 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:12:47 ha, thank you 07:13:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:13:57 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-75-23.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:27 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:15:31 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.93.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:42 -!- Bardamu [~Bardamu@unaffiliated/bardamu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:16:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:22:11 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-npfedxvocihabrya] has joined #lisp 07:22:20 -!- fantasticsid [~user@101.228.184.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:05 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.186] has joined #lisp 07:26:02 Beetny 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[~Beetny@ppp118-208-33-127.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:40 -!- harish [~harish@180.255.248.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:03:58 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:50 harish [~harish@180.255.248.9] has joined #lisp 08:10:55 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:12:59 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 08:13:20 ggole [~ggole@203-59-173-97.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:15:42 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:17:23 jk121960 [~jk121960@108-89-22-112.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:19:38 I wrote some tests because of this article: http://mortoray.com/2013/11/27/the-string-type-is-broken/ and for the implementations I have tested I get most issues as mentioned in the article: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140280 08:19:55 Perhaps other would try some other CL implementations? 08:20:03 s/other/others 08:24:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.231] has joined #lisp 08:24:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.231] has quit [Changing host] 08:24:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:25:26 aerique: i'm not seeing baffle upcasing working on sbcl... (you can get a version with (lisp-implementation-version), btw) 08:26:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:28:10 Yeah, I just forgot what version I'm running on OS X at home :-) 08:29:30 (subseq "bae" 3) => "e" 08:35:47 CL-USER> (reverse "noel") "leon" CL-USER> (reverse "noël") "lëon" 08:35:52 *ggole* sighs 08:40:07 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:41:26 -!- PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:43:03 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:43:42 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:44:02 PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has joined #lisp 08:44:28 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 08:46:01 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 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[~user@int.emakina.nl] has joined #lisp 10:41:08 Jieth [~other@188.162.64.80] has joined #lisp 10:41:45 Hello, why (make-random-state) returns same values even after i restart sbcl? 10:42:55 But return vaule of make-random-state changes only ifer machine restart. 10:43:19 -!- LoicLisp [~loic@96.24.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:54 Is there something less regid for random state genreation? In perfect case i want different radom states every type i run make-rundom-state. 10:45:18 clhs make-random-state 10:45:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 10:46:54 fe[nl]ix: Does it mean that sbcl's make-random-state si non-conforming? 10:47:30 s/si/is/ 10:47:32 Jieth: There is a package in QL called 'secure-random' that you might want to look at. 10:48:40 fe[nl]ix: I mean in example it's clearly seen that every call to meke-random-state returns different value. 10:48:50 loke: Thanks, i;'l take a look. 10:49:02 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:58 loke: Hm, nope. It doesn't seem to have seed generation. 10:50:11 Jieth: It does have secure random numbers though. 10:50:24 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9C136.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:29 Of course it doesn't hook into the CL random-state, as that thing is implementation-dependent. 10:50:45 loke: I need seeds to be able to reporduce my program's behviour. 10:50:47 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:32 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 10:55:09 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.0.111] has joined #lisp 10:57:52 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 10:59:35 -!- Jieth [~other@188.162.64.80] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:01:46 Lefeni [~Lefeni@gate.boras.se] has joined #lisp 11:02:18 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 11:02:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:02:34 taivas1080 [~user@202.172.119.149] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:09:24 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:12:57 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:12:58 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:20 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:13:36 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:15:38 ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:31 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:38 minion: memo for kristof: no, there's been only little discussion, especially since beach doesn't necessarily think L4 is the way to go. And I didn't have the time to think about it more than just as very general outlines. What little time I did spend on it, I was looking into EROS more, since L4 + W7 is very similar to EROS in expressiveness, so making sure their lessons stick was taking up my time. I'm obviously not saying no, though, so if you have any 11:17:38 more specific pointers, I appreciate 11:17:39 Remembered. I'll tell kristof when he/she/it next speaks. 11:18:08 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18:10 minion: memo for kristof: more specific pointers, like Mungi or anything else, I appreciate 11:18:10 Remembered. I'll tell kristof when he/she/it next speaks. 11:18:33 What is W7? 11:24:06 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.178.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.178.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:25:14 xol```` [~user@host231.190-138-31.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 11:25:51 Ah, Ree's W7 kernel. 11:26:02 yep 11:26:38 but now I look at Mugi, it's interesting. I didn't know it was a single addres space OS 11:26:49 mungi, right? 11:27:37 yeah, that 11:27:45 my keyboard is kinda failing 11:27:50 -!- xol``` [~user@host185.190-30-168.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:33 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 11:31:12 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:33:29 xol````` [~user@host244.201-253-220.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 11:34:53 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-129-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:35:10 harish [~harish@175.156.242.180] has joined #lisp 11:35:16 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 11:36:23 -!- xol```` [~user@host231.190-138-31.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:38:40 -!- taivas1080 [~user@202.172.119.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:44 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 11:47:02 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:49:10 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:50:28 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:54 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:00:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:00:16 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-33-127.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:05 preparing a test case to show a qmynd bug with MySQL POINT datatype, just to be proved wrong by being unable to trigger it again 12:01:26 I might as well try to switch pgloader over to qmynd then ;-) 12:02:32 -!- xol````` is now known as xol 12:02:49 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:27 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.200.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:30 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 12:03:47 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 only left, connecting without password, maybe add support for that 12:04:05 oxum [~oxum@122.164.191.31] has joined #lisp 12:04:52 why'd pgloader use qmynd? 12:05:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:05:56 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:08:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:09:36 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:10:31 it currently uses cl-mysql, which is a CFFI driver 12:10:44 the problem with cl-mysql is unbounded memory usage 12:11:13 and I think that's due to the mysql client API in the .so rather than in the lisp parts, but I'm not sure about that 12:11:35 Ayey_ [~rune1@0309ds7-ar.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:11:39 with qmynd it's quite easy to implement a "streaming" API where you only allocates a row at a time 12:11:52 with data source that might not fit into memory, it's quite important 12:12:24 dim: hmm, you're the author of el-get? 12:12:28 yeah 12:12:53 my learning curve towards CL somehow included lots of elisp ;-) 12:13:01 understandable 12:13:10 dim: how's the support for windows? 12:13:28 last I checked it worked, and we accepted patches to improve it 12:13:36 hmm 12:13:47 *mathrick* 's debating porting over his emacs setup to el-get 12:13:51 the difficulty is having the CLI tools needed, such as svn, git, make, autmake, install-info and all the jazz 12:14:05 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:14:10 dim: and it supports non-ELPA sources like bzr or git, right? 12:14:14 but you might as well already have that on your windows machine I guess 12:14:19 right 12:15:39 hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has joined #lisp 12:15:54 dim: re: pgloader, what I don't understand is why *pg*loader needs a mysql driver 12:16:16 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:20 have a read at http://tapoueh.org/blog/2013/11/12-migrating-sakila 12:16:51 oh! 12:16:57 that makes sense 12:17:00 nifty in fact 12:18:00 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:18:52 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:20:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:47 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:21:00 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:24 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:23:52 rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.129.32] has joined #lisp 12:28:52 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:29:13 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:29:56 thx ;-) 12:31:33 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 12:32:40 -!- hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:32:59 hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has joined #lisp 12:33:15 echo-area [~user@123.120.234.99] has joined #lisp 12:33:48 -!- hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:05 hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has joined #lisp 12:36:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:36:54 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:39:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:40:14 -!- hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:40:30 hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has joined #lisp 12:40:35 -!- ggole [~ggole@203-59-173-97.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:52:03 minion: memo for Jieth: (make-random-state) returning the same values even after restarting sbcl is a feature: http://www.sbcl.org/all-news.html#0.6.3 *RANDOM-STATE* is no longer automatically initialized from (GET-UNIVERSAL-TIME), but instead from a constant seed. Thus, the default behavior of the system is to repeat its behavior every time it's run. If you'd like to change this behavior, you can always explicitly set the seed from (GET-UNI 12:52:03 Remembered. I'll tell Jieth when he/she/it next speaks. 12:53:21 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:53:51 ggole [~ggole@124-148-73-23.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:54:32 -!- xol [~user@host244.201-253-220.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:11 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:12 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-129-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:18 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:55 hugoduncan [~user@69.157.170.213] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 -!- cory786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:27 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.191.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:59:01 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:37 -!- hugod [~user@70.24.177.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:01:18 oxum [~oxum@122.164.89.67] has joined #lisp 13:01:33 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 13:04:47 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:05:47 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:05:52 -!- gilberth [~gilbert@d023005.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:06:24 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:06:29 eMBee: UNIX time is not a good seed actually. 13:06:33 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:06:55 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-qdanlskegamgzccn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:02 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nbjgmmstzzmnrnch] has joined #lisp 13:07:12 eMBee: I'd rather take some random crap from /dev/urandom. 13:07:34 /dev/random if you need higher quality starting seed 13:08:02 (and probably should pass it through apropriate seeding mechanism if needed) 13:08:09 Aha. 13:08:49 *prxq_* has (setf *random-state* (sb-ext:seed-random-state t)) in his .sbclrc 13:08:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:09:01 which does exactly that 13:10:00 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:10:36 The same random state can actually be a feature as it makes it easier to predict random values for developer. 13:10:45 -!- mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: There I am, leaving. It may be forever, it may be for a few seconds, but I am gone without doubt] 13:11:08 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:26 Setting it in .sbclrc sounds like denying is usefulness. 13:11:32 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:11:50 s/is/it's/ 13:12:17 p_l: no reason to seed your seed, it's already what a seed does. That's why you use a PRNG 13:13:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 13:13:31 mathrick: the choice of a seed is important and impacts behaviour of PRNG, depending on type and task 13:13:32 mathrick: if you use random values to seed your seed, it may increase randomness. 13:13:59 mathrick: so sometimes you need specific procedures to seed the algorithm to get certain guarantee level 13:14:03 hitecnologys: read what you wrote again 13:14:07 it makes no sense 13:14:13 Hmm. 13:14:36 Yeah, that was stupid. 13:15:03 most importantly, a static seed allows for replay of typical PRNG output. Sometimes you want that, sometimes you don't :) 13:15:23 p_l: it might, but general-purpose PRNGs are usually chosen to be insensitive to particular seed choices, and anyway, you'd "seed" it by going through a PRNG anyway 13:16:48 mathrick: well, that's the bit of difference between /dev/urandom and /dev/random, as well. So a big disclaimer of "if you need anything specific from randomness, be very, very careful" ;) 13:17:00 also OS-level entropy providers like /dev/(r)random whiten their output anyway 13:17:25 p_l: /dev/random is more or less deprecated in Linux 13:18:30 usually, if I want a random number, I want exactly that. So if I always get the same numbers (because the same seed is used each time I start sbcl) then that's not as random as I wanted. 13:18:58 if I want the same sequence, I can arrange for that. But that's more the exception 13:19:45 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:19:45 prxq_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_rnd_st.htm#STrandom-stateST "Initial Value: implementation-dependent. " 13:20:04 if you want a random sequence, you'd damn better initialise it 13:20:10 mathrick: deprecated since when? and yes, it is whitened, because otherwise it wouldn't have necessary distribution :) 13:20:20 mathrick: sure, that's why I have that particular line in my .sbcl :-) 13:20:34 .sbclrc, even 13:20:53 p_l: and whitening means your "seeding" ain't gonna achieve squat, because urandom already has the required distribution 13:21:10 it's functionally deprecated and has been for some time, lemme find the Ts'o post 13:21:48 mathrick: urandom has a bit different premise, iirc (that is, it uses the data that random gives as seed for PRNG and outputs the data from PRNG) 13:22:07 exactly, which is a higher quality result anyway 13:22:27 p_l: https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/SDcoemc9V3J 13:22:28 I had to deal with quite recent software that refused to start till /dev/random had enough data... 13:23:58 "+David Johnston /dev/urandom doesn't block and it's what most programs use. I don't consider the /dev/random behavior to be that important and so it's kept mostly for compatibility reasons. " 13:24:28 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 13:25:04 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:25:07 hitecnologys: i don't disagree. that was quoted from the sbcl site 13:25:54 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:26:49 eMBee: ah, OK. 13:28:01 but while we are on the topic, would it not be possible to default to a random seed, and get a predictable result by setting a static seed explicitly? 13:29:09 p_l: /dev/random is sorta like symmetric "encryption" of passwords in the DB. It only obscures your security problems by making them into problems you can't understand, not by removing them 13:30:28 there are two practical classes of software needing random state: things which need "essentially random" state that can use /dev/urandom and its built-in stretching and whitening, or things which have very specific crypto requirements, and as such shouldn't be relying on black-box mechanisms like /dev/random anyway 13:32:08 Ts'o doesn't trust /dev/random's estimates, and he wrote it, so I don't see any particular reason my crypto should without a careful analysis 13:32:48 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:33:31 francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:9873:58c0:acaa:4542] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 eMBee: maybe, but opposite approach works well too. 13:34:33 -!- ircbrowse [~chrisdone@2a01:4f8:150:5307::2] has quit [Changing host] 13:34:33 ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 13:34:36 mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 -!- mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:34:49 ivan4th [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:35:48 mathrick: ... After going through Ts'o's post, he says nothing like that - he even explicitly mentions difference in professed use between random and urandom, however admits that working on random is not his main job and he mostly picks up slack due to lack of proper maintainer. He also mentions that entropy estimator is not as good as it could be 13:36:01 (and that majority of code uses urandom, as it should) 13:37:02 good thread, btw, so thanks for the link :) 13:37:54 (n.b., FreeBSD has only equivalent of urandom, with Yarrow algorithm, whose ideas are also used in how random and urandom are implemented on Linux) 13:38:46 yeah 13:39:51 p_l: but if you go further down, he actually says he doesn't believe in entropy estimation at all, because the sources the kernel uses are laden with huge and impossible to estimate error 13:40:07 stated a bit more diplomatically 13:40:11 hitecnologys: i suppose the current approach has ther advantage that if you actually need better randomness, you'll have to think more about it 13:40:19 mathrick: can you quote? The thread is big and I already closed it 13:40:20 ie. "isn't convinced it's at all sensible" 13:40:33 "The reality is that trying to estimate entropy given the timing sources available to the kernel is extremely difficult. So in the absence of real hardware support (and that's what rngd is for), entropy estimation is always going to be problematic, and probably hugely subject to error. So that's always going to be an issue with /dev/random." 13:41:07 mathrick: ... that can be interpreted in many ways. Especially given that /dev/random is not something he particularly works on 13:41:18 mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 13:41:24 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.89.67] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:41:59 (I am reminded a bit of the infamous "what british say, what you think they say and what they actually think" poster, on how something might be a bit different in meaning) 13:42:14 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:42:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:43 Generally, general random number generators should only be used when mildly surprising numbers are required. 13:43:12 Otherwise you'd better have worked out what statistical properties you require, and have measured the generator against it. 13:43:21 p_l: if you add 2 and 2 (and 2 and 2..., spread over that long thread), it mostly is that way. Ie. either you have some minimum-quality HW entropy source, and then you should incorporate it into /dev/urandom. It's not a good idea to use most HW sources directly anyway. Or you don't, and then you're back to square one with guesses about unknown quality measures 13:43:53 HW sources shouldn't be trusted blindly even when they're high-quality, as that thread explains 13:44:20 which is why Ts'o refused the patch mentioned at the beginning 13:45:18 the code I encountered, if it didn't use it's own entropy gathering method, tended to use /dev/random to for data used as seed for its chosen CPRNG 13:49:07 minion: memo for Fare: https://github.com/qitab/qmynd/issues/1 13:49:07 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 13:50:39 a friend of mine developed a method to get random values by measuring the jitter in the timing of the execution of cpu instructions (by creating a race-condition and measuring how often the race occurs. 13:51:11 Did he measure how random it is? :) 13:51:51 probably not very random :) 13:51:54 he had gigabytes of random values tested by some service doing 13:52:01 that kind of testing 13:52:06 also, very, very dependant on specific cpu core 13:52:15 And load, and ... 13:52:24 for example, Niagara chips would give afaik 0 randomness 13:52:54 yes, it's cpu dependent, but you can tune the parameters to get good results for every cpu 13:53:04 eMBee: not every, I believe 13:53:15 ok, every he tested so far 13:53:54 eMBee: for example, how do you deal with a deterministic, in-order, barrel-type CPU? 13:54:05 he's mostly working with embedded devices that don't have a hardware random generator, that's why he came up with this in the first place 13:54:12 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 i think it works by racing two cpus against each other 13:54:34 eMBee: ok, two cpus make more sense 13:55:19 i don't see how it would work woth only one 13:56:27 eMBee: some cpus are embarrasingly nondeterministic 13:57:20 that is, they guarantee the calculation will end up ok, but they might jump all over the place before returning the result 13:57:36 LiamH [~none@96.231.221.245] has joined #lisp 13:59:00 cpus... are crazy things 13:59:25 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 13:59:30 I spent a bit of time learning about the internals in futile dream of ever implementing MMIX :) 13:59:34 -!- hs366 [~hs366@w193-11-200-124.eduroam.sunet.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:00:20 Looking forward to getting rid of them. 14:00:27 howso? 14:00:46 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:58 No need to run an interpreter when you can compile. 14:01:25 Just need a few more generations of programmable hardware. 14:02:38 -!- francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:9873:58c0:acaa:4542] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:06:17 here is a writeup of my friends work: https://www.osadl.org/?id=1560 14:07:29 -!- ogamita`` [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:07:43 -!- ranek [~konny@p57A59150.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:46 -!- macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 14:09:18 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:11:35 francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:313e:e3d4:fa5:a40c] has joined #lisp 14:11:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:32 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 14:18:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:44 ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-218-119.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:13 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:24:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:25 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 14:25:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-218-119.iusacell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:25:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:26:48 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:32:13 -!- ism [~ism@p5794F2A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:20 dkordic [~danilo@109-93-122-193.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:33:48 Is there any real performance difference between classes defined with DEFSTRUCT and DEFCLASS? 14:33:57 oxum [~oxum@122.164.105.247] has joined #lisp 14:34:58 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:35:25 -!- hugoduncan [~user@69.157.170.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:35:39 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-193-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:40 hitecnologys: DEFSTRUCT is faster but rigid 14:35:47 hitecnologys: I don't think you should car 14:35:48 e 14:35:50 (accessors are inlined etc.) 14:37:30 ism [~ism@p5794F88E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:26 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:43:30 I wonder how much of the difference a good JIT compiler could remove 14:43:51 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:43:56 Well, you might look at how v8 does. 14:44:09 That's a more extreme case of the same kind of thing. 14:44:13 v8 compiles a very different language 14:44:18 I think I'd rather look at HotSpot 14:44:37 -!- fzappa [~user@int.emakina.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:44 stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-53-33.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:44:46 Presumably the same opportunities are available for Common Lisp, but I don't actually *know* that. 14:44:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-53-33.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 14:44:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:44:59 The problems are quite similar. 14:45:02 hitecnologys: there is a "real difference", but whether it's useful for you is a different question 14:45:09 you should test to see 14:45:16 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:46:19 ggole: a lot depends on how much you're willing to sacrifice in terms of flexibility. Although that's where v8 actually shines (the ability to quickly recompile the code, at expense of memory) 14:46:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:59 It has a couple of levels of recompilation as well; all profiler driven. 14:47:24 CL has more invariance than ecmascript, so you'd expect it to be a bit easier. 14:47:40 but getting the manhours together is harder to justify for CL. 14:48:06 Yeah, there's a lot of commercial interest in Javascript 14:48:17 p_l, mathrick, z0d: well, I'll use DEFCLASS then. Thanks. 14:49:00 ggole: pardon my cynism, but I feel sometimes that it's everything into getting us to spend more on hw ever since available parts eclipsed normal users needs :P 14:49:29 p_l: *cynicism 14:49:29 dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #lisp 14:49:40 That's certainly the effect 14:49:51 mathrick: right. I didn't have much sleep recently :) 14:49:53 I dunno how seriously to take the idea that it is a deliberate outomce 14:50:12 Conspiracy tends to take more intellectual resources than are available. 14:50:18 ggole: not deliberate, it's just correlation, not causation 14:50:31 Mmm 14:50:39 "Software is a gas, expands to take all available space" 14:51:25 also part of how many people don't know about what came earlier, and repeat it again, and many other things 14:52:19 A depressing subject. 14:53:06 It's just VHS vs beta -- the superior product winning. 14:53:11 depressingly off-topic 14:53:45 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxgelypeilkgqjhv] has joined #lisp 14:54:58 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:56:16 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@0309ds7-ar.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:57:25 The tricky part with superiority is working out what means for the significant case. 14:59:36 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:03:00 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:51 Joreji [~thomas@159-179.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:04:52 *JuanDaugherty* has a beta player for sale. 15:05:36 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 15:05:40 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:40 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:09:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:12:23 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:24 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:15:36 bloody-bitch [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:16 omagi2 [~androirc@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 15:17:27 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-193-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:31 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:41 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:45 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-193-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:57 cast(convert(c.column_type using utf8) as char(1000)) as column_type, 15:21:07 that's a blob, not a char, in MySQL. thanks. 15:24:22 -!- omagi2 [~androirc@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:35 omagi2 [~androirc@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 15:25:22 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@gate.boras.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:18 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:27 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:27:52 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:28:37 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:27 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:34:07 mmm, qmynd is way slower than cl-mysql ;( 15:36:07 makes sense :D 15:36:20 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.0.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:36:49 twice as slow? 15:37:07 only twice ? 15:38:02 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:45 matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 guyal [~anonymous@75-27-242-104.lightspeed.psdnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:52 that's already hard to accept 15:41:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:13 even if I can at least think I might control the memory footprint and load tables larger than memory 15:41:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:43:00 you could probably rewrite it to use more clever buffering, etc... 15:43:25 no buffering is used here, I added a mapping interface 15:43:28 C-with-syscalls in Lisp kind of style 15:43:39 I pass down a lambda which is evaluated for each row 15:43:55 the driver is not retaining the resultset into memory 15:44:38 maybe that's the problem 15:44:42 not enough buffering 15:45:13 or maybe using babel to reencode strings is the problem 15:45:48 it gets a vector of octets and wants to make a string out of them and uses babel for that, I don't think babel is known for speed 15:46:21 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:46:46 probably not 15:47:16 oh and I was mixing it with flexi-stream on that 15:48:34 replacing babel calls with (map 'string #'code-char octets) gives the same timing or about 15:54:09 ManateeLazyCat [~user@121.60.35.193] has joined #lisp 15:54:10 mmm, using flexi-streams:with-input-from-sequence on each row 15:56:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:37 if I had to guess I would guess the row parsing is not efficient 15:57:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 luismiguel [~luismigue@179.231.236.93] has joined #lisp 16:06:45 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:52 -!- bloody-bitch [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:26 bloody-bitch [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 16:10:35 -!- bloody-bitch [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:56 haxx [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 16:11:09 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:11:37 -!- luismiguel [~luismigue@179.231.236.93] has left #lisp 16:12:22 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 16:12:36 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:17:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@159-179.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:18:32 is there a lisp con 16:18:35 like pycon 16:18:35 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:18:41 sorta just want to watch talks on youtube 16:22:39 <_tca> there's lots 16:24:03 deadghost: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyKekftcIioT995qDMGO8TtSLIz25lhGd 16:24:26 -!- omagi2 [~androirc@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:39 omagi2 [~androirc@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 16:35:50 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.226.45] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:39:24 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:27 -!- ManateeLazyCat [~user@121.60.35.193] has left #lisp 16:39:45 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] 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Bye!] 17:26:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:30 -!- guyal [~anonymous@75-27-242-104.lightspeed.psdnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 17:28:42 what is a difference between load-foreign-library and use-foreign-library in cffi? 17:33:46 -!- rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.129.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:34:00 -!- peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:34:08 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-npfedxvocihabrya] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:34:23 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:24 peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:35:25 ranek [~konny@p57A59150.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 jaccas [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has joined #lisp 17:37:40 -!- jaccas [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:11 jaccas [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has joined #lisp 17:38:25 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:39:31 how do I turn the output of pathname-directory into a path string? 17:39:33 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:56 clhs directory-namestring 17:39:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 17:40:46 stassats: yeah, I am reading it 17:40:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:43:01 (directory-namestring (pathname-directory "/test")) 17:43:05 -!- omagi2 [~androirc@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:43:30 The value (:ABSOLUTE) is not of type (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME FILE-STREAM). 17:43:30 17:44:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:44:44 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-shbzkmcsrgfuckyi] has joined #lisp 17:45:00 you are doing it wrong 17:45:49 the debugger gave me a hint ;) 17:46:14 -!- jaccas [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 17:48:09 stassats: ok, I understand 17:48:41 pjfcl [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 -!- pjfcl [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has left #lisp 17:48:51 pjfcl [~pjfcl@188.250.128.48] has joined #lisp 17:50:32 I got misled by the pathname functions 17:50:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:55 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:53:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:23 -!- ranek [~konny@p57A59150.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 17:56:06 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-238-248.w109-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:56:11 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 17:56:22 Good evening everyone! 17:57:15 hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has joined #lisp 17:57:25 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-12.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:15 eerdafhi beach 18:00:19 hi beach* 18:01:30 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:02 -!- francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:313e:e3d4:fa5:a40c] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:19 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9C136.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:35 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:39 francis_wolke [~user@2601:9:4180:468:45bf:8877:21d8:2286] has joined #lisp 18:09:46 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:10:14 sklr_ [~clarkema@31.222.178.169] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 -!- sklr_ is now known as sklr 18:12:43 hba [~hba@189.130.37.38] has joined #lisp 18:17:11 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 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EnterpriseJava [60ef81aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.239.129.170] has joined #lisp 19:46:32 hi 19:46:51 Is this the lisp chat? 19:47:56 check the topic 19:48:36 This is my first time using irc chat. Wanted to find out about lisp 19:48:38 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:10 test 19:49:38 I program in java 19:49:40 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:50:18 EnterpriseJava: Excellent. A few resources for you: http://www.lispworks.com/products/myths_and_legends.html 19:50:18 kristof, memo from mathrick: no, there's been only little discussion, especially since beach doesn't necessarily think L4 is the way to go. And I didn't have the time to think about it more than just as very general outlines. What little time I did spend on it, I was looking into EROS more, since L4 + W7 is very similar to EROS in expressiveness, so making sure their lessons stick was taking up my time. I'm obviously not saying no, though, so if you have any 19:50:18 kristof, memo from mathrick: more specific pointers, like Mungi or anything else, I appreciate 19:50:20 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 There is so much craze over clojure that I think I should look into lisp 19:51:08 oh, ty fo rhte link. I will read it 19:51:13 so, lisp people feel so insecure about their language they have to start by dispelling myths? 19:51:45 EnterpriseJava: this channel doesn't really deal with clojure. We're primarily about Common Lisp, which is a different, older dialect that doesn't primarily run on JVM (although there are implementations that do) 19:51:58 EnterpriseJava: This channel is actually more geared toward Common Lisp, which is an excellent language in itself (and in my opinion, better than Clojure, which I've been using for 7ish months.) You might want to check out #clojure. 19:52:43 and yeah, we're naturally going to prefer CL over clojure in here because of the above 19:52:52 stassats: I've always treated that page as "Awesome stuff about lisp, on a single page". 19:52:56 of course, it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't learn it 19:53:13 mathrick: Oh, hi there :P 19:53:23 I should learn to use the minion bot sometime. 19:53:59 hey 19:54:04 Can common lisp do clojures like the language clojure? 19:54:13 EnterpriseJava: Do you mean "closures"? 19:54:18 yes 19:54:23 EnterpriseJava: If you do, it certainly can. :) 19:54:46 EnterpriseJava: I've always thought it was amazing how you can get a lot of OO stuff out of lisp using closures. 19:55:52 strg [~strg@a89-182-25-0.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:31 better yet, it can do clozures 19:56:57 what is the difference between clojure, closure, and clozures? I have seen all mentioned. 19:57:02 EnterpriseJava: Anyway, to preempt a long series of small questions, I encourage you to read the source I linked you, this introduction to Practical Common Lisp: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html , paul graphams essay "beating the averages" (although there's a fair amount of hyperbole in there), and go on Clojure to learn how you can use Clojure seamlessly with your existing java libraries. 19:57:05 :) 19:57:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:37 clojure is its own language, clozure is a common lisp implementation, and closures are a language construct lol 19:57:49 EnterpriseJava: Clojure is a spin off of the word closure. It's just the name Rich Hickey used for his language. A closure is a computer science concept; wikipedia can help you there (AVOID the mathematical definition). Clozure is a common lisp compiler. 19:58:11 EnterpriseJava: clojure is a lisp dialect for JVM. "Closure" is a programming term for a function capturing its local environment. Clozure is a name used in several lispy places, most notably in the name of Clozure Common Lisp, an implementation of CL 19:58:35 not to be confused with the google javascript compiler also called clozure 19:58:44 Is Clozure also a play on the word "closure"? 19:58:45 Oh, I was trying to remember the name of that 19:58:56 Google's clozure does awesome things. 19:58:59 entitativity: yes 19:59:00 no wait, that's "closure js", no z 19:59:01 er 19:59:14 EnterpriseJava: yes* =p Sorry whoever the other is. 19:59:40 mathrick: Someday, there will be a law against naming things that are phonetically similar to the word "closure". 19:59:41 in reality, closure is a web browser 20:00:03 with all 2 users probably 20:00:25 haha 20:01:18 mathrick: I'm going to look into EROS and get back to you on that. Besides Strandh's tex documents, is there any drawing board that you all use to spitball ideas? 20:01:41 not right now, I don't consider it a project I work actively on in any sense of the word 20:01:47 it's scifi stuff 20:01:51 Heh, alright 20:01:59 Oh, but here's a more pressing question that was on my mind 20:02:16 yeah? 20:02:21 mathrick: What in particular was wrong with CLIM 2 that prompted you two to work on a CLIM 3? 20:02:33 nothing, it's beach who does 20:02:56 Does he have a github repo with some documentation? 20:03:14 I'm just joining in, because I trust him to have enough reason to want to do CLIM3 (and he's worked plenty on McCLIM, which is a CLIM2 implementation) 20:03:35 kristof: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis 20:03:41 i've always wondered, is the CLIM for windows? 20:04:03 like a library that is supported by windows 20:04:12 CLIM is a spec and protocol 20:04:16 On a scale of one to impossible, how likely is it to talk to the Allegro and Lispworks guys and have them work on CLIM3 as well? 20:04:19 it can be implemented in many different ways 20:04:35 LispWorks does, AFAIK, ship a working CLIM implementation with a win32 backend 20:04:52 mathrick: I didn't know beach was Robert Strandh, your previous comments make sense now :P 20:05:00 oh, heh 20:05:01 kristof: extremely unlikely 20:05:11 but there's no free lib for win32? :( 20:05:24 stassats: Do the two ever work with each other? 20:06:05 What are some reasons to use Common Lisp instead of Clojure? 20:06:17 resttime: I will want to work on a win32 CLIM3 backend eventually, but that's eventually. Ie. "not now" 20:06:29 I'd recommend either using a free platform or paying for the commercial tools for the commercial platform. 20:06:32 kristof: both have their own toolkits, there's absolutely no reason for them to support something which doesn't even exist 20:06:45 EnterpriseJava: Common Lisp is more powerful than Clojure, and supports a wide variety of paradigms. For instance, Common Lisp comes with CLOS, which is pretty great OO stuff. 20:07:00 EnterpriseJava: this channel is about common lisp, so, there's no choice 20:07:20 EnterpriseJava: Common Lisp has also been around longer than Clojure, and Rich Hickey is a long-time fan of CL. 20:07:28 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:07:29 EnterpriseJava: many. It's not tied to JVM, which is a bother if you're not already invested into the JVM ecosystem; it's a more flexible and nicer dialect of lisp, it's more stable and has multiple implementations and a well-defined spec, unlike clojure which has no spec and a single implementation 20:07:46 EnterpriseJava: But to be honest, there's no reason to learn both; I've found that the stuff I like about Clojure is pretty available in Common Lisp, besides the concurrency features. 20:08:01 the nicer dialect part is obviously subjective, but it's a substantial argument if you happen to agree 20:08:05 *no reason to not learn both. 20:08:55 I think i will focus on common lisp then. So I can learn from the begging with the real lisp. 20:09:01 EnterpriseJava: There are also lots of reasons to learn Clojure, though, if you plan on using this in a professional environment. 20:09:32 EnterpriseJava: No no no no. Common Lisp is not "real lisp". Neither is Scheme, nor Clojure, nor Picolisp, nor Newlisp. Don't take sides; just appreciate the lispiness of it all. :) 20:09:45 For now it is just for learning. 20:09:58 while "real lisp" doesn't exist, it doesn't mean all lisps are created equal 20:10:04 newlisp for instance is pure rubbish 20:10:08 what is this, advocating some different languages in a channel for common lisp? 20:10:08 it's the php of lisps 20:10:14 mathrick: Well, that depends on how you feel about fexprs 20:10:23 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:10:26 fexprs are only one of the many problems with newlisp 20:10:50 I admit I don't have much love for newlisp, but I do like picolisp. 20:11:01 Which lisp would you say is the most powerful lisp? If you wanted maximum unrestricted power of lisp? 20:11:04 picolisp I'm fine with, it's an interesting take on things and competent 20:11:13 EnterpriseJava: this channel's answer is "common lisp" 20:11:15 EnterpriseJava: And what does power mean? 20:11:23 EnterpriseJava: I'd agree with going for common lisp first just because I personally think it's a better representation, but as far as learning just to learn, Scheme is widely revered. 20:11:24 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: system reboot, brb] 20:11:32 in #clojure, you will get "clojure" 20:11:38 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:12:11 Does paul graham chat here? 20:12:14 no 20:12:28 what room does he chat in? any? 20:12:33 he doesn't even like common lisp 20:12:35 presumably none 20:12:39 EnterpriseJava: If you mean expressiveness of language, Common Lisp wins hands down. In Scheme, you're encouraged to do things functionally and recursively, whereas Common Lisp lets you be imperative where imperative makes sense. 20:12:50 and paul graham should be the last on your list of people to ask 20:12:50 ^ this 20:12:59 has anyone ever come into this channel just to say "lisp sucks" then leave? 20:13:07 EnterpriseJava: In Clojure, you encouraged to do things with immutable structures and functional programming, where Common Lisp lets you use mutable OO all day long. 20:13:08 he's a good salesman, but unfortunately what he sells is only somewhat similar to common lisp 20:13:14 Meant that to appear under kristof, but it works under mathrick, too =p 20:13:21 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 20:14:02 resttime: naturally 20:14:03 EnterpriseJava: But if by powerful, you mean "what can I do, right now?", then Clojure wins, because you have every Java library at your disposal on planet earth. 20:14:06 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 kristof: which leaves you with Java libraries, and that's not self-evidently a good thing 20:14:32 what a bunch of baloney! 20:14:32 CL has CL libraries 20:14:34 mathrick: That is true :) 20:15:16 what is better? common lisp libraries or java libraries? 20:15:29 EnterpriseJava: I was just about to point out what mathrick pointed out; Common Lisp certainly isn't library-less, and there are plenty of tools at your disposal. And common lisp is so expressive that people easily write things for the things they need. 20:15:57 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:16:07 Awesome. I'm definatley going to learn common lisp first. 20:16:20 Not to mention, imnsho, you're more likely to be able to read the CL library source than the Java library source, assuming the latter is even available. 20:16:50 EnterpriseJava: You said this is just for learning, so I'm going to say that you should just learn Common Lisp. Go pick up a copy of Practical Common Lisp, or read the free web version. :) 20:16:56 i have to log out. ty for the help 20:17:06 EnterpriseJava: Have a good day! 20:17:06 EnterpriseJava: Successful Lisp, too! 20:17:17 -!- EnterpriseJava [60ef81aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.239.129.170] has left #lisp 20:17:30 ....The fact that he's heard of Clojure certainly makes me happy. Even if Clojure is the deluded subset of Common Lisp :P 20:17:39 Right? 20:17:51 it's not a subset, it's not even a lisp 20:18:05 I'm curious, how'd you guys get onto Common Lisp in the first place? 20:18:20 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:35 resttime: i was sold on being smug 20:18:43 Curiosity. I kept hearing everywhere that Common Lisp was old and crufty, and that Clojure was a 'modern' lisp. So I used Clojure for a while, and eventually investigated CL to see if the claims were true. 20:18:44 They weren't. 20:18:54 resttime: After looking at 50,000 VMs trying to find particular features, turned out the CL runtime was what I was actually looking for, not a VM at all. 20:18:59 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.8.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:14 heddwch: Virtual Machines are snake oil. 20:19:16 kristof: old and crufty, maybe, but it gets the job done without eating 1.5G of memory just because you wanted a debugger :> 20:19:22 kristof: Agreed :) 20:19:32 kristof: 99% of what you hear about CL by people who don't use CL is bullshit 20:19:45 p_l: My second statement was that it wasn't old and crufty :) 20:19:52 resttime: I wanted to try something that looked significantly different to Java/C/Python/whathaveyou and Lisp has always interested me. 20:20:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:43 mathrick: To be honest, I've always been curious about what exactly Peter Gabriel has against Common Lisp, and I can't find any documents. Whatever he has to say is the only thing I'll trust. 20:20:52 kristof: I simply don't necessarily consider Old to be bad, and the crufty isn't that bad too ;) 20:21:37 The crufty is kind of a silly argument anyway, especially when you hear it from people who use.. Windows, of all the crufty things. 20:22:01 kristof: Peter Gabriel, the singer? maybe you're thinking Richard Gabriel? 20:22:03 mathrick: But yes, in my reading and experience, I still can't actually find out why Common Lisp from a LINGUISTIC perspective necessarily sucks. No one has ever delineated it. The arguments just boil down to libraries, and real-world usage, etc. 20:22:14 Not that unix isn't crufty, just the cruft is still used, rather than having millions of layers of backwards compatibility lol 20:22:25 cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD2D99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:27 stassats: Actually, that's the one. I always get them confused. 20:22:41 minion: chant 20:22:41 MORE LIKELY 20:22:48 heddwch: the backwards compat. stuff is why Windows won OS wars of 90s :) 20:23:03 p_l: Yeah, no. 20:23:14 p_l: They won because they had software, and OEMs. 20:23:17 p_l: Absolutely, which is why I think it's funny when I hear users of it talk about other things being crufty... Lost some history somewhere, methinks. 20:23:42 kristof: they had software because of the backwards compat. Which goes back to DOS 1.0 which had special support that allowed easy porting of CP/M software 20:23:48 kristof: But they have always had the software due to that backwards compatibility. That's why all the RISC ports died horrible deaths. 20:23:48 kristof: that's Richard Gabriel, and also Gabriel is known for deliberately changing sides and obscuring his true opinions, so I dunno 20:24:06 a Windows 1.01 application works on 32bit Windows 7 (possibly Windows 8.1 even)_ 20:24:25 p_l: Windows 8 at least, I know lol You have to munge the headers a bit, but yea 20:24:42 The crufty is kind of a silly argument anyway, especially when you hear it from people who use.. Windows <-- or Java. Let's talk about the *third* DateTime API included in the language, shall we? 20:25:04 heddwch: I meant binaries 20:25:28 heddwch: I had even evidence of a system upgraded from 1.01 to Windows 7 32bit 20:25:31 let's mock other languages, that's one way to make CL feel special 20:25:37 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 ha 20:25:40 mathrick: Yep lol 20:25:54 heddwch: unix has layers alright, they just get used together with the old cruft you can't remove 20:25:59 unix is crufty as fuck 20:26:02 everything is crufty 20:26:14 p_l: I know, I meant the binary headers. Newer versions will reject apps from earlier than Windows 3.0, for no particular reason 20:26:44 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:49 mathrick: Yep. That's what I was meaning, we still use fork() despite spawn() existing, and everything new is another layer (dbus, systemd, etc etc) 20:26:52 heddwch: if you rely on something that still runs under older Windows, it's high time you upgraded. Or moved it to VM 20:26:52 "binary headers" is not a phrase that makes sense 20:27:01 mathrick: EXE header 20:27:07 oh 20:27:17 =p 20:27:29 do they now? I know that 64-bit NT doesn't support 16-bit binaries anymore 20:27:41 which is what I suspect is the most common cause here 20:27:57 also, 64bit windows will refuse to run 16bit apps. (32bit support arrived in Windows 3.x with Win32S, and separately in NT) 20:27:57 I think there actually was a reason, but I can't remember. I do know that munging them will cause them to run lol 20:28:02 i really wonder how is that relevant to lisp? 20:28:16 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 heddwch: that is too many lols 20:28:39 p_l: I don't even use Windows except for games ;) Just useless trivia. 20:28:50 mathrick: It is, sorry. Bad habit I slip back to sometimes. 20:28:53 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:29:54 n.b. I had Star Sapphire Lisp running recently under DOSBox... wish I had that long time ago :3 20:29:59 mathrick: Still, his essays are nice. :P 20:31:18 they are, but you need to keep in mind that he wrote polemics with himself 20:31:46 so trying to divine anything about what Gabriel really thinks about any particular thing is a rather futile endeavour 20:31:52 mathrick: Against himself, or... "with" himself? 20:32:08 hmm... Gold Hill Lisp seems to have better track record of being on the net than cliki 20:32:18 I wonder if they still have any customers 20:32:41 p_l: didn't they tank long ago? 20:32:43 I know Symbolics has (something around ~300k USD in sales for this year?) 20:32:53 prxq_: that's the thing. I am wondering how they still float on the net 20:32:55 that's quite a number 20:33:13 p_l: someone pays the hosting, but that's it, i think. 20:33:16 prxq_: 300k in sales is not much. Though seems enough for one consultant 20:33:21 kristof: "polemic with someone" means arguing against, just as "argument with someone" does 20:33:33 prxq_: or maybe they paid a domain for decades upfront 20:33:42 mathrick: Ah, alright 20:33:47 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 p_l: once uppon a time, there was someone here that was using golden cl. From a company called shuffleworks, I think 20:34:16 I want to define a macro that changes the behaviour of another macro that might be used within the BODY. 20:34:19 mathrick: I haven't read anything of his like that so I wouldn't know. But I do know that anytime he's written something along the lines of "Common Lisp isn't great, but it's all we've got right now", he hasn't actually clarified why someone would want something more. 20:34:25 yes, shuffleworks 20:34:41 ... I can see how that one company might have kept some form of Golden CL surviving 20:34:45 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-127.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:02 similarly, the 300k sales of symbolics? It's iirc something like 90% DoD 20:35:11 I try to use (PROG2 (EVAL-WHEN (LOAD EXE COMP) (setf *var* T)) ,@ body (EVAL-WHEN ( ) (setf *var* nil)) but it doesn't work. 20:35:36 I thought that (EVAL-WHEN (:compile-time) (...)) should be done during the macro-expansion run? 20:35:39 p_l: it's making a very small number of people 300k$. That's ok. Can pay rent from that... 20:35:44 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:36:06 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 flip214: i don't think prog2 preserves toplevelness? 20:36:13 prxq_: I figured one could get within 100k of pre-tax money from that... 20:36:26 mathrick: In any case it probably has something to do with his research in parallel programming languages, and Common Lisp's lack of threading/concurrency standardization. 20:36:27 DoD contracts are wonderful job security, if possibly an ethical mental health abuser. 20:36:50 p_l: you mean after tax? 20:36:52 Bike: ah, ok. so I'll need to use a LET* instead. thanks, I'll try. 20:36:53 kristof: because you're never done, and CL wasn't even meant to be the last Lisp ever. It just happened to be the end of the road for formally specified Maclisp descendants, but it's far from being perfect 20:37:08 it's a language of compromises and not upsetting things that work 20:37:29 heddwch: Having worked for military government contractor and dealing with shit produced by american ones, I suspect that the majority of ethical concerns should be about how you're fleecing the taxpayer 20:37:36 which is a very practical base for building things that actually work, but necessarily means you don't do the best imaginable thing, just the best possible thing 20:38:04 p_l: military contractor for which military? 20:38:15 (all while being a "private" company and thus not part of the evil tax that took your money, now vote to lower our responsibilities so we can turn in even worse shit because oversight is evil too, ok?) 20:38:39 p_l: Really interesting to get that perspective, thanks! That was my guess 20:38:54 mathrick: Polish MoD-owned R&D institute, dealing with American private gigantic contractor's crap 20:39:30 Bike: neither LET nor a combination of PROGN and PROG1 helps. 20:40:26 p_l: what's the Polish name of that institute, if you can say? 20:40:28 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-12.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:39 nha [~prefect@koln-5d815c55.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 mathrick: Instytut Techniczny Wojsk Lotniczych 20:40:49 ah 20:40:52 Bike: hrm, might be some other problem, though. 20:40:59 you can probably now guess the american company name ;) 20:42:08 flip214: concerning over the returned value doesn't make sense at the top-level, are you sure you need eval-when? 20:42:23 p_l: aren't they the guys responsible for Iskra? 20:42:56 mathrick: Iskra is Instytut Lotnictwa, and that was in late 50s to 60s 20:43:15 though they retain the only complete and technically flight capable I-22 Iryda 20:43:20 hmm, which was the failed one that crashed and then got canned? 20:43:24 oh, Iryda 20:43:26 that was the one 20:43:35 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-250-1.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 flip214: let definitely doesn't preserve toplevelness 20:43:48 mathrick: Iryda was canned for different reasons than crashing... but it is even bigger offtop than earlier windows talk ;) 20:43:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-59-232.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:19 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:44:19 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:44:28 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:44:35 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:37 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:06 stassats: I want to set a *special* to pass a flag during macroexpansion 20:45:34 (defvar *special* nil) (defmacro m () (let ((*special* t)) )) 20:45:43 Bike: ah, and PROG1 doesn't either, because it expands into a LET. 20:45:46 kristof: there is a strange attitude among people of that generation with respect to lisp. For some reason they feel they need to flog CL, which actually is a perfectly fine language by modern standards. 20:45:50 you can pass stuff in the lexical environment by abusing symbol macros 20:45:52 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-21.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:12 expand into (symbol-macrolet ((your-symbol ...information...)) ...) and then macroexpand your-symbol in the inner macro 20:46:31 flip214: that sounds very fishy 20:47:03 even if it did work 20:47:13 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-127.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:25 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-21.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:23 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 20:49:24 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-141.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-250-1.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:14 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:23 -!- killmaster [~killmaste@70.105.249.5.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Changing host] 20:55:23 killmaster [~killmaste@unaffiliated/killmaster/x-109233] has joined #lisp 20:56:59 -!- archonix [~none@78.90.30.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:15 -!- rk[] is now known as rk[NOMNOMNOM] 20:57:36 stassats: thanks, it works now 20:58:32 francogrex [~user@91.179.218.138] has joined #lisp 20:59:09 -!- slarti [~anonymous@66.225.113.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:59:17 what did i do? 20:59:32 except for saying "don't do that" 21:00:31 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 21:01:31 you remembered me that top-level forms ignore their value, so I could just use progn 21:02:14 hiato [~hiato@196-215-14-198.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:07:29 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:24 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:12:39 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-25-0.net-htp.de] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:14:36 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:16 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:20:53 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:35 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-87-94.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:56 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 21:24:32 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:14 is there any difference in memory between #(0 1) and (0 . 1)? 21:25:19 in, say, SBCL 21:26:01 yes 21:28:17 the cons is more space-efficient? 21:28:44 Joost [~Joost@unaffiliated/joost] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 er, I should change the example away from numbers. (vector 'a 'b) versus (cons 'a 'b) 21:29:38 I'm a complete beginner. How would you test for the sign of a number in lisp? Is there a predicate for that? Or for lesserthan/greatherthan? 21:29:44 william-cushing: at this sizes, it would be accidental which one was more "space efficient". 21:30:11 william-cushing: they are both quite good in terms of space. It's best not to worry too much about this kind of thing 21:30:33 william-cushing: this cons takes less spaces, yes 21:30:46 oh, nvm, you can just do (< a b) 21:30:47 nice :D 21:30:51 I'm liking this already 21:31:07 on account of not having a widetag header and a length slot 21:31:29 Joost: You're impressed with a less-than comparison operator? 21:31:30 clhs signum 21:31:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_signum.htm 21:31:37 Joost: plusp and minusp ? 21:32:59 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 21:33:07 thanks. another question: someone have something cooked up so I can type (clhs 'signum) into a repl? 21:33:15 kristof, e's tickled with lisp function app is that OK? 21:33:32 william-cushing: press C-c C-d C-h 21:33:35 rather, C-c C-d h 21:35:32 Is that slime specific, or is that emacs-wide? 21:35:43 that is slime 21:36:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-87-94.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:51 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:36:57 there are emacs programs one is clhs.el orsomething like that 21:38:04 Bike [~Glossina@75-164-163-129.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:53 Okay, another micro-tuning question. Is there a way to hook into the implementation of hash tables to avoid computing the hash function twice in: 21:44:56 (defparameter frob/table (make-hash-table :test 'equalp)) (defun frob/compute (x y) (stuff)) (defun frob (x y) (let ((key (cons x y))) (multiple-value-bind (v p) (gethash key frob/table) (if p v (setf (gethash key frob/table) (frob/compute x y)) )))) 21:45:14 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:16 i.e., in the prototypical memoization template. 21:45:18 how do you know that it's computed twice? 21:45:21 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:27 I don't, I'm just guessing. 21:45:37 sure 21:45:44 I suppose I should check with disassemble first. 21:45:47 just inspect the implementation sources 21:45:57 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD2D99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:46:00 and as you say generated code 21:47:39 on sbcl, it caches the last accessed value 21:48:42 but even if it didn't, there's largely nothing you could do about that for portable code 21:49:07 and you really should make your special variables wear ear-muffs 21:50:08 especially considering that the hashtable could be rehashed between two invocations 21:52:03 Manuel [~Manuel@188.95.73.96] has joined #lisp 21:52:09 !LIST 21:52:11 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:53:34 ...some disassembly-poring-over-later. Indeed, SBCL caches the hash value. cool :). 21:54:01 disassembling was the wrong way to check for that 21:55:17 you could just look at https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/target-hash-table.lisp#L714 21:56:24 I don't know the SBCL codebase, wouldn't even know where to start to find such a link :) 21:56:37 gethash M-. 21:57:01 a couple M-.s later you are in %gethash3 21:57:55 ah, my local install of emacs/slime isn't setup correctly. M-. doesn't work for me; it wants to go find the sbcl sources by the remote paths the developers use 21:58:47 right, those pesky developers, you need to do (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location path) 21:58:57 i.e., it tries to go look in: /home/csr21/src/lisp/sbcl-release-dir-20131031-KrKg58J2F/sbcl-1.1.13/src/code/ 21:59:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:59:20 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:00:33 awesome! 22:01:00 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:01:02 next stop: hacking on sbcl 22:01:08 lemonodor fame awaits 22:02:34 is that change permanent, or do I need to figure out how to dump a new image of sbcl that knows where my copy of the sources are? 22:02:44 put it in ~/.sbclrc 22:02:45 is there a predicate like natp, but then for Z? Test if n is an integer? 22:02:58 -!- Manuel [~Manuel@188.95.73.96] has quit [] 22:03:02 clhs integerp 22:03:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_inte_1.htm 22:03:11 and you're speaking riddles 22:03:13 ah, thanks 22:03:27 Sorry, I'm not quite aware of the proper jargon 22:03:40 and there's no natp, for that matter 22:04:05 oh.. then it's probably the book I'm using that's supplying it 22:04:21 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-14-198.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: The great inequality of life: nothing > money] 22:04:26 in any case, you solved my problem - thanks for that :) 22:04:31 i'm not sure of the utility of checking for natural numbers 22:05:06 (typep x 'integer) is another way (typecase x (integer "it's an integer!") (float "it's not!")) 22:05:20 ASau` [~user@p54AFEEE1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 if by natural numbers you include 0, then there are unsigned bytes, which are useful. 22:06:06 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:02 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:07:20 -!- mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:07:23 nipra [~nipra@122.177.183.62] has joined #lisp 22:07:32 can I use a type higher in the hierarchy (like T) to get a fall-through always-match case? 22:07:50 antoszka: it doesn't make sense to do so 22:08:01 hm. 22:08:02 t will always be the last type checked 22:08:31 unless by higher you mean not higher in the typecase clauses 22:08:50 otherwise, T and OTHERWISE work 22:09:04 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:12 -!- guyal [~anonymous@75-27-242-104.lightspeed.psdnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 22:09:14 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:09:15 Yeah, higher in the hierarchy, not higher in the code ;) 22:09:29 Sure. 22:11:32 curiously, (typecase 1 (* 1)) works on CCL 22:13:07 * in general is treated by CCL as a type-specifier, (typep 1 '*) => T 22:13:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:46 even though it's not given such a role by CLHS, unless you give it a very loose reading 22:14:59 yeah 22:17:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-164-163-129.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:18 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 22:18:13 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:18:57 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-217.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:28 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 22:26:53 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:01 -!- strobegen1 [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:24 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.218.138] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:44:59 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 22:45:50 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d815c55.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:46:08 LispNewbie [~eskil@user-1087abb.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:20 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.150.67.216] has joined #lisp 22:49:26 -!- ism [~ism@p5794F88E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:49:35 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:50:53 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:36 ism [~ism@p4FCD4B11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:11 Is there a way to declare that "this function accepts either a vector of double-floats, or a list of double-floats"? Alternatively, can I say "sequence of double floats"? 23:00:36 william-cushing: You could always use ASSERT 23:01:23 I wonder if ftype could do it? 23:01:24 looking for declarations to the compile-time type theory, not run-time contracts. 23:01:27 william-cushing: there isn't a real list-of-foo type for any foo. 23:01:27 clhs ftype 23:01:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm 23:02:00 thanks bike, that's what I suspected. 23:02:15 william-cushing: type annotations wouldn't let you avoid generic sequence operations anyway, though 23:02:59 good point. typecase does work though, right? 23:03:21 (but does the same thing as the generic sequence operations, except for a function-call overhead?) 23:03:42 Bike: Do you actually like manual tiling? 23:03:45 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:03:48 (talking about stumpwm) 23:04:23 william-cushing: works how? 23:04:31 kristof: i do everything fullscreen, actually 23:05:30 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 23:05:56 Bike: ....then what is the point of using a tiling window manager? 23:06:01 something like (typecase x ((vector *) ) ((list) )) 23:06:09 where the <...> fragments are identical 23:06:18 Bike: I seem to have been spoiled by Xmonad. Letting the tiler decide how things should appear on the screen is... liberating. 23:06:26 william-cushing: sure 23:06:55 kristof: it's fast and i can mess with it well 23:09:33 Bike: Hmph. I should find a way to get dynamic tiling in Stump, then. Although.. it's a bit of a headache to use, anyway. Silly default keybindings 23:09:40 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:04 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@254-85.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:11:35 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 23:13:08 rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.168.24] has joined #lisp 23:15:21 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exit IRC] 23:15:28 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:19:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:20:35 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nbjgmmstzzmnrnch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:21:39 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-141.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:12 -!- haxx [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:37 Kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 23:32:38 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:32:48 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 23:34:11 kristof: yeah i don't even use the prefix key 23:35:10 -!- hs366 [~hs366@94.254.45.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:04 Bike: Meh. I'll use stumpwm when the dswm guy implements dynamic tiling by default 23:40:26 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9C136.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:41:09 kristof: There was this guy (gravicappa) who was trying to implement dwm-like dynamic behaviour on stumpwm's code base. 23:41:39 kristof: you can probably still checkout gravicappa-wm from some repo (github?), but the project was abandoned half-way done 23:42:47 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:14 antoszka: so, typical lisp project. cool idea, implemented by one idea, abandoned at 70% mark, little documentation except for some github code :P 23:43:24 *one man 23:43:26 or woman 23:44:08 Unfortunately so. Though I think in that case he decided to redo the project in some Scheme and maybe even succeeded 23:44:20 Weird choice of language. :P 23:44:32 There you go ;) 23:44:53 antoszka: you totally took me by surprise by that ellipse 23:45:05 "Since when did my terminal support variable width fonts?!" 23:45:41 :) 23:47:14 how's dynamic tiling different from other tiling? 23:49:09 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:49:14 You never get 'empty' tiles. The number of tiles adjusts to the number of x-clients. 23:49:18 Module current tiling policy. 23:49:22 modulo* 23:49:22 which is SANITY, LOVELY SANITY 23:49:26 Yeah. 23:49:31 That's why I stick with dwm. 23:49:38 Wishing it was written in CL :) 23:49:47 I was suprised at how fast stump started up and how small it is 23:49:57 Fucking XMonad with its GHC always took ages 23:49:59 according to youtube, DWM stands for "Dating White Men" 23:50:18 No, it's neither DWM, nor DWM.exe (the windows 7 wm), but dwm :) 23:50:20 mathrick: yup, that's definitely it. :P 23:50:36 I looked at some tiling WMs here and there, but they're all actually extremely inflexible 23:50:53 When I get back to tiling (GNOME's eyecandy lured me in) I'll be using i3wm and hope that I never long for a programmable window manager 23:51:05 even the supposedly flexible ones are only useful if your ideas about flexibility match the author's exactly 23:51:22 kristof: ew, GNOME3? 23:51:31 mathrick: The very same one. Secretly a fanboy. 23:51:37 how can you stand it 23:52:35 I love it to death 23:52:50 You probably haven't tried GNOME 3.10 23:52:55 -!- killmaster [~killmaste@unaffiliated/killmaster/x-109233] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:31 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 23:55:18 killmaster [~killmaste@70.105.249.5.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:55:58 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9C136.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:12 kristof: it's still built on insane and flawed ideas about fixing things that weren't broken 23:57:52 I like pretty much 95% of GNOME's design choices. 23:58:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:24 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:39 To me, it's a better paradigm (for point-and-click interfaces; tiling's still more productive but I've sinced sacrificed productivity for eyecandy) 23:58:56 mathrick: Oh, and the latest iteration of the adwaita gtk theme is sexy. 23:59:03 This is off-topic, anyway.