00:00:16 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@148.4.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:00:32 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@84.Red-83-42-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:52 -!- kaygun__ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08:33 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:35 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F9D4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:28 -!- ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson1] 00:13:13 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:21 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@192-177.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:40 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:34 kruhft [~kruhft@184.151.114.64] has joined #lisp 00:26:00 k0001_ [~k0001@host114.186-125-96.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:28:18 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 00:29:01 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host242.190-229-213.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:31:10 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:35:26 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:35:47 Is there some weirdness with sb-ext:exit? 00:36:24 ie, Symbol "EXIT" not found in the SB-EXT package. 00:36:26 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.198.117] has joined #lisp 00:37:15 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@187.208.214.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:37:33 abunchofdollarsi: what version? 00:37:41 1.0.55 00:37:55 exit didn't exist back then 00:37:59 I see. 00:38:11 From src it is. 00:38:24 i think you want at least 1.0.56.55 00:39:44 -!- echo-area [~user@111.196.7.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:21 Thanks. 00:42:40 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-232-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:45:32 -!- killmaster [~killmaste@89-181-146-204.net.novis.pt] has quit [Changing host] 00:45:32 killmaster [~killmaste@unaffiliated/killmaster/x-109233] has joined #lisp 00:46:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:46:52 -!- epsylon` [~epsylon@2a00:dcc0:eda:98:216:3cff:fea1:ce4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:20 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:21 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.37.113] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 00:48:50 epsylon [~epsylon@193.183.98.140] has joined #lisp 00:48:58 xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:08 -!- xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:28 -!- abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:31 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 00:52:04 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:59:03 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:00:15 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:04:29 is the hyperspec a solid guide/set of apidocs for common lisp? I'm writing some apidocs and I need some inspiration 01:05:01 yeah. it's got a few bugs, which are on cliki somewhere, but usually it's pretty good. 01:07:13 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 01:10:37 optikalmouse: the CL standard is a little particuliar. 01:10:42 cool 01:10:51 optikalmouse: they tried to keep it consistent by avoiding any redundancy. 01:11:02 optikalmouse: that makes it relatively hard to read. 01:11:14 pjb: lots of linking? 01:11:17 optikalmouse: also, it's not a formal definition, but that's another pet peevee. 01:11:30 optikalmouse: it could benefit from even more internal links :-) 01:13:41 -!- harish_ [~harish@124.197.91.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:14:06 optikalmouse: I like Cocoa frameworks documentation, and I must admit that Android developer documentation is nice enough too. In both case, they have an exaustive reference listing all the classes and all the methods, with reasonably but not overly detailed descriptions of each method (and properties and public fields, etc, etc). And the supplement them with "Guides" or general descriptions of each category of mechanisms or kind of 01:14:06 UI elements or other features. 01:14:55 So you can read those guides easily enough (they refer to running demo code and other tutorials, and of course, to the reference documents), and you can use the reference pages when you have to work with a class or a method. 01:15:56 http://developer.android.com/index.html and https://developer.apple.com/devcenter/mac/index.action or https://developer.apple.com/devcenter/ios/index.action 01:17:42 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:46 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:47 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:18:00 IMO, at times in both android and cocoa, the method documentations skip over too many details. If you don't read the guide (you should) and don't browse a large selection of reference material, the information provided for a given method can sometimes be insuficient. I find it regretable, but it's understandable: you can't replicate the whole guides or part of them in each method concerned :-0 01:18:12 This could be solved with more links too. 01:18:28 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.198.117] has left #lisp 01:20:05 The first sections of each CLHS chapters, are too succint to be considered "guides". Perhaps CLtL has more "guide" material. This is something that could be written for CL. (but then any CL book does that approximatively, eg. PCL). 01:20:20 Hmmm. So, when I start slime via M-x slime in emacs, I have to manually enable lisp-mode and slime-mode to get the syntax highlighting and documentation stuff. Is this normal, or am I missing outo n something? 01:20:31 yeah, that's true, it's a pretty bland reference. 01:20:37 kristof: Something is wrong. 01:20:59 kristof: probably you want that to happen automatically for .lisp files 01:21:09 didi: Hrm. 01:21:16 -!- kruhft [~kruhft@184.151.114.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:21 ah.. replace 01:21:28 Bike: It *does* happen automagically for .lisp files but not for my SBCL repl in the *inferior-lisp* buffer 01:21:43 well, it's not supposed to. try slime-repl. 01:22:18 -!- hydan` [~user@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:27 inferior-lisp is, well, inferior :p 01:23:06 kruhft [~kruhft@184.151.114.64] has joined #lisp 01:23:11 Bike: I have no slime-repl command. 01:23:32 kristof: try (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in elisp 01:24:08 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:24:08 kristof: what vivitron said. it's a contrib. 01:24:24 slime-repl is the buffer you want 01:25:13 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:25:14 afaik there's no (ordinary) syntax highlighting in slime-repl 01:25:36 oh syntax hilighting ? 01:25:44 kristof: if you used the quicklisp slime setup it should be taking care of that for you, but otherwise put it in your .emacs file. I think being sent to the *inferior-lisp* instead of the slime-repl is a sign that slime-fancy is likely not enabled. 01:25:52 Vivitron: Bike zophy thanks! 01:26:26 Vivitron: That certainly gave me the slime stuff, and the documentation in the mini buffer is getting syntax highlighting but I still need to enable lisp-mode in *slime-repl*. 01:26:46 slime-repl isn't supposed to have lisp-mode, it has repl mode 01:27:09 editing files and using a repl are very different things, and lisp-mode is for the former 01:27:31 Bike: Okay, that makes sense. It would be nice, though, to have syntax highlighting for history in the repl, you know? 01:27:33 kristof: hmm, yes, I guess I haven't been using syntax highlighting in my repl. 01:27:42 your editor should have hiliting, i never wanted hiliting in the repl 01:27:57 Vivitron: Going off of what Bike said it would make sense to not have highlighting in the repl, anyway 01:28:03 can it be done ? 01:28:11 kristof: i've never written complicated enough code in the repl to want syntax highlight, so i don't know how to set it up. my usual interaction mode is C-c whatevering stuff in files. 01:28:20 and repl is for small sketches, a few lines at most 01:28:31 really 01:28:31 the repl does have tab completion and indentation, which is enough for that 01:29:06 Bike: considering lisp-mode actually works in the REPL buffer, it probably isn't too hard. Oh, TAB COMPLETION? I wasn't getting that in inferior-lisp mode but I can certainly see it happening now with slime-repl, thank you! 01:29:14 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-232-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:29:20 the repl is nice for looking at the lisp image mostly 01:29:44 Yes, probably. Anyway, that is enough spoon-feeding for me, I should go read the SLIME documentation. Thank you, all :) 01:30:01 kristof: you'll get tab completion in file buffers with M-TAB rather than TAB like in the repl, fyi 01:30:05 i have utility functions that search for functions, symbols etc. in the image that i use in the repl 01:30:41 Bike: didn't know that either, thank you. I only started seriously using emacs when I started using slime and learning CL, so this is helpful stuff 01:32:10 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 01:32:15 (replace ...) is so wonderful 01:32:33 -!- kruhft [~kruhft@184.151.114.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:46 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:33:51 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:35:04 So I just finished chapter 9 in PCL and I was wondering 01:35:38 with-gensyms looks like a really useful macro, but it's not in the CL spec, despite having a use... pretty much anywhere you want to avoid variable capture and use a lot of variables within a macro 01:35:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:35:58 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@7.Red-79-159-6.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 01:36:39 kruhft [~kruhft@184.151.114.64] has joined #lisp 01:36:40 Even more surprising, wouldn't it be useful to just have a standard way for gensymming names without binding with let? Like prefixing something with a non-alphanumeric character 01:36:58 what, so like _foo is a gensym? 01:37:15 and yes, it's very useful, that's why it's in standard libraries like alexandria 01:37:25 Bike: Ah, ok 01:37:46 -!- zpr [1000@205.204.17.127] has left #lisp 01:38:43 Oh! with-gensyms is in Alexandria, which is why it wasn't getting tab-completed in emacs 01:38:57 yes 01:39:05 it's basically the same as the PCL definition though 01:39:09 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:39:41 kristof: Alexandria is like an expanded standard library for CL 01:40:17 I see 01:40:49 Bike: So what's the equivalent for _foo in Alexandria? 01:41:12 i don't know what you mean by _foo. 01:42:12 Bike: (defmacro name (_foo) (< body with foo referenced throughout>)). Underscore indicates that all occurrences of foo in the body are gensymmed that one time. 01:42:16 kristof: there's a problem of scope. 01:42:29 You can use #:foo but (eq '#:foo '#:foo) --> NIL. 01:42:56 (let ((a '#:foo)) (let ((b '#:foo)) (eq a b))) ? Would you want it T or NIL? CL says NIL. 01:42:58 pjb: Because a gensym is created twice, once for each "'#:", right? 01:43:00 but on the opposite end, if every use of _foo in every expansion was the same symbol, you'd still have capture problems. 01:43:10 kristof: what about (let ((a '_foo)) (let ((b '_foo)) (eq a b))) ? 01:43:52 kristof: the book let over lambda gets into how to do some symbol name tricks, but with-gensyms is the more adopted approach 01:43:56 At least when you write: (let ((foo (gensym))) `(let ((a ',foo)) ,(let ((foo (gensym))) `(let ((b ',foo)) (eq a b))))) you know what you get. 01:44:13 vs. (let ((foo (gensym))) `(let ((a ',foo)) (let ((b ',foo)) (eq a b)))) 01:44:17 pjb: Yes, I see. 01:44:31 Vivitron: I'll take a look at it after PCL 01:44:48 personallly i like the CL macro system for this reason, it's not too tricky, just programs that output source, unlike scheme's or w/e 01:44:51 Anyway, I'm off, but thanks for the help 01:45:02 Also, with #:foo, you can combin #= and ##: (let ((a '#1=#:foo) (b '#1#)) (eq a b)) --> T 01:45:23 pjb: I need to mull over what you said today for the next few hours :) 01:45:33 question: If you had a program that let you type in arbitrary lisp expressions, would you want it to use the standard read-table or allow customizing of the read-table? 01:45:45 Both. 01:45:47 :-) 01:46:18 (let ((user-readtable (copy-readtable nil)))  (let ((*readtable* user-readtable)) (read user-input)) ) 01:46:52 sounds good 01:47:06 You can also use a global variable if you prefer or need to, but it's the same principle: create a user readtable that is a standard readtable (or one with your own reader macros), and use it when reading and also when evaluating user code. 01:47:08 so each new expression starts with the default readtable? 01:47:23 (let ((*readtable* user-readtable)) (eval (read user-input))) 01:47:25 I think a global is better for if they want to e.g. use a lib with custom reader macros 01:48:00 jasom: you need not only a specific *readtable* in the dynamic environment, but also a specific *package* and other variables such as the variouse *read- and *print- variables. 01:48:19 jasom: cf. eg. swank::*swank-bindings* 01:48:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-133-96.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:48:25 *sigh* is there a library for managing that? 01:48:36 cf. http://paste.lisp.org/display/138617 01:48:54 You can copy and paste it. And depending on your needs, you have to tune it anyways. 01:49:13 You may have to add or remove variables. 01:49:36 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:49:38 Notice you can use progv to bind them around (eval (read)) when you keep them in a list like that. 01:50:10 that's not too terrible 01:50:33 If your program deals with several users (eg. as a server thru sockets), you can have different copies of those lists, with different states of variables. 01:51:08 right now it's 1 process per user so not a problem 01:51:25 So you may also have to to save them at the end to be able to keep the change from one expression to the other. 01:51:29 *jasom* knew (eval (read-from-string )) was too easy 01:51:37 :-) 01:51:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:03 That depends if you want to give access to the whole lisp process to the user, or if you want to "sandbox" him a little. 01:52:11 no sandboxing 01:52:18 Anyways I'm way over time. Good night! 01:52:20 gn 01:52:28 and thanks 01:54:57 railly [~lilin@211.142.247.93] has joined #lisp 01:56:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~drunkery@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:58:35 -!- cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:45 cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:48 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 02:00:33 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:03:43 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 02:03:49 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:03:58 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:06:13 hydan [~user@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 02:08:14 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 02:10:21 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.35.81] has joined #lisp 02:11:10 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] 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quit [Client Quit] 12:10:01 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bzvthneptmicxfth] has joined #lisp 12:10:15 echo-area [~user@111.196.4.130] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:15:38 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.91.172] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:16:35 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-207-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:12 oxum [~oxum@122.164.91.172] has joined #lisp 12:18:25 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 12:19:29 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-37-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:20:48 good evening 12:22:13 |JRG| [c209f2f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.9.242.245] has joined #lisp 12:22:35 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:22:37 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 12:22:37 is anyone here using cl-ledger? since it is no longer developed i am curious if it is good enough for use as a freelancer, make and track invoices mainly 12:24:11 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 12:29:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:31:23 LoicLisp [~loic@229.35.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:10 milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 12:33:20 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:37:06 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:37:06 eMBee: If you want use it as user then why do care in which language it's written? 12:41:59 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@dev.pro-it.dk] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:43:31 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:43 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:44 protist [~protist@161.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has 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has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34:15 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:34:22 okasu: because i am a developer, and i prefer using tools in languages that are easely hackable. 13:34:32 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:07 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-191-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 vaporatorius [~vaporator@84.Red-83-42-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:13 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-147-122.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:44 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:29 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:45 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@84.Red-83-42-198.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41:23 -!- kaydarla [~user@223.238.199.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:41 kaydarla [~user@223.238.199.94] has joined #lisp 13:41:52 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 13:44:20 oxum [~oxum@122.164.98.152] has joined #lisp 13:45:14 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas3-toronto02-1279545382.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:47:59 eMBee: I heard good things about cl-ledger and its Haskell variant 13:49:50 lisp code tends not to rot. So it probably works as well now as it did two years ago. 13:50:20 ManateeLazyCat [~user@121.60.35.193] has joined #lisp 13:51:53 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:09 well, actually, what i read was that it was dicifult to get working properly, but it turns out that it is in quicklisp now, so that is fixed but only since a few months. 13:53:00 my main need though is invoicing and it appears that exactly that is not supported (from http://lwn.net/Articles/501681/ ) 13:55:27 teggi [~teggi@123.21.198.146] has joined #lisp 13:55:30 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54833A58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:01 -!- ManateeLazyCat [~user@121.60.35.193] has left #lisp 13:59:45 protist [~protist@209.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 14:00:14 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:00:20 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 14:01:32 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined 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[~thisismyu@148.4.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:52:40 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.119.86.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:53:35 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:56:01 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:56 how to declare a variable being of type either nil or simple-array? 15:58:58 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@hosting.trifork.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:59:29 looks like (declare (type (or null simple-array) vector)) does it 16:01:20 do you know what kind of simple-array it is ? 16:01:38 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:03:58 '(unsigned-byte 8) 16:04:43 then specify it 16:05:06 (or null (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))) 16:05:30 thanks! 16:06:12 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 16:06:23 would you expect performances impacts? 16:06:54 yes, significant 16:07:19 simple-array doesn't really mean much 16:07:58 ok 16:09:16 (time (loop repeat 1000000 do (pgloader.transforms::byte-vector-to-bytea (make-array 4 :initial-element 97 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))))) 16:09:47 that seems to agree with you, IIRC down from 1.5s to 0.076s 16:09:56 ^_^ 16:10:07 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:07 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:07 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:10:42 ccorn [~ccorn@hosting.trifork.nl] has joined #lisp 16:12:58 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@11.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 16:18:00 ben2 [~ben@199.241.30.80] has joined #lisp 16:19:05 -!- bentgf [~ben@199.241.30.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 16:22:55 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:06 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 16:31:20 InvalidCo [~invalidco@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-54f824-20.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:32:34 -!- 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-!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:07:16 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:cf5:686d:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:29 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 -!- karswell [~user@87.113.101.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:11 -!- karswell` [~user@87.113.101.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:32 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:2002:6ba8:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 17:17:55 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.215] has joined #lisp 17:19:39 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:31 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:23 pythian [~pythian@2607:fa48:6eca:9500:754a:ce56:a276:6e21] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 Is there a convention in Common Lisp regarding differences in what a predicate XXX-p would do vs predicate XXXp? Dash or no dash - is there a convention that they mean different things? I'm looking at two predicates in ECL (structure-subtypep x y) and (structure-subtype-p x y). The former requires x and y to be types the latter requires x to be an object and y to be a type. 17:23:57 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 17:24:23 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bzvthneptmicxfth] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:24:55 I seem to remember reading something about this a long time ago. 17:24:57 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-xbyzjajpvurocice] has joined #lisp 17:24:58 drmeister: typically you use a - if you already have a - in the naem 17:25:22 e.g. foop something-longer-p 17:25:53 you learn something new about CL every day 17:25:57 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 17:26:24 but as ecclectic as CL is, I think there are probably other conventions too 17:27:21 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:37 Ok, that's reasonable. So then I think the predicates STRUCTURE-SUBTYPE-P and another STRUCTURE-SUBTYPEP that require in one case the type of the object and in the other the object - could have been named better. 17:29:09 *drmeister* realizes that it is what it is. 17:31:18 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 17:31:19 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:38 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:41 k0001_ [~k0001@host14.190-229-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:38:43 -!- LoicLisp [~loic@229.35.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:39:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-29-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:39:49 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:04 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host79.186-108-162.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:41:50 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-206.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:57 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:47:20 slarti [~anonymous@50-202-45-98-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:33 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:47:48 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:47:51 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 17:48:21 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:49:13 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:51:32 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-hwrbzsiibmtrwmke] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:51:44 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:04 kaygun__ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 17:53:29 -!- kaydarla [~user@223.238.199.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:52 wcushing [80202773@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.32.39.115] has joined #lisp 17:55:14 anyone know how to make allegro CL not report "; Fast loading ...."? 17:58:16 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.152.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:59:18 zenoli [~pk@109.201.152.225] has joined #lisp 18:02:21 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:02:48 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-206.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:08 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat109.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:50 malbertife [~malbertif@host164-54-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:12:41 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:48 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:08 ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.209.22] has joined #lisp 18:14:22 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.209.22] has quit [Changing host] 18:14:22 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has joined #lisp 18:17:00 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-74-99.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:57 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:23:23 -!- pythian [~pythian@2607:fa48:6eca:9500:754a:ce56:a276:6e21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:01 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:21 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat109.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 18:28:27 brown`` [user@nat/google/x-cotvvswdzuxvqrjn] has joined #lisp 18:28:47 -!- brown` [user@nat/google/x-plakexvmmvyuwlec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:05 wcushing: not off hand. Check the documentation? 18:31:05 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat109.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:31:49 I didn't pore over it with a fine tooth comb, but I managed to squelch some things 18:31:51 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:31:59 just not the loading messages 18:34:36 clhs *load-verbose* 18:34:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_prs.htm 18:35:07 But allegro is known to have several sets of such global variables, so a variant may be needed. 18:35:20 Also: (load file :verbose nil) 18:36:36 thanks, I was looking in the wrong place, at the command-line startup 18:36:41 rather than load directly 18:38:35 (load file :verbose nil) doesn't work in acl90express, but (setf *load-verbose* nil) does the trick. Thanks! 18:38:53 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:41:49 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:41 akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has joined #lisp 18:43:08 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:43:19 SLIME doesn't auto-indent on RETURN, does it? 18:43:28 You have to use C-j 18:44:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:25 (/= kristof Krystof)? 18:45:39 nope, kristof is new 18:45:50 dcxi [~dcxi@11.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:02 sellout-: ^ 18:46:02 kristof: Ive bound RET to slime-newline-and-indent or whatever, but I undid that for some reason. Dont remember why. 18:46:24 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.98.152] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 18:46:29 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:46:36 sellout-: Oh, there's a specific slime-newline-and-indent? I wonder how that's different from regular newline-and-indent 18:46:49 oxum [~oxum@122.164.98.152] has joined #lisp 18:47:22 kristof: Oh, sorry  paredit-newline is what Im thinking of. 18:47:29 describe-key to the rescue. 18:47:35 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:55 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.98.152] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:56 This is like `newline-and-indent', but it not only indents the line that the point is on but also the S-expression following the point, if there is one. 18:48:16 oxum [~oxum@122.164.98.152] has joined #lisp 18:48:50 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 18:49:30 sellout-: Neat. paredit's next on my list of stuff to read about 18:52:50 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:03 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:53:03 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 18:54:21 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:02 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has left #lisp 18:56:09 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:09 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:56:09 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 18:56:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host14.190-229-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:19 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:54 foobartze [~yaaic@p4FFEEFC5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:04 k0001 [~k0001@host88.190-138-117.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:00:05 -!- foobartze [~yaaic@p4FFEEFC5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:36 pieMo [~other@188.162.64.35] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 hi 19:00:49 what does #1=(programmable . #1#) means? 19:01:09 clhs #n= 19:01:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #n=. 19:01:29 pieMo: it a circular reference 19:01:32 *it's 19:01:49 clhs #= 19:01:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 19:02:13 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-182-214-10.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:15 p_l: hm, okay, so #1= assigns something to #1#, right? 19:02:20 like in C 19:02:30 in a way. 19:02:38 pieMo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 19:02:43 it's rarely used, afaik 19:03:42 weird, not sure why one might need it 19:03:47 pieMo: it happens at read time though; you end up with a cons with the cdr pointing to itself (since "(a . b)" makes a cons cell with car a and cdr b) 19:04:04 pieMo: It's primarily used for printing out circular lists in a way that can be read back again 19:04:11 pieMo: (let ((*print-circle* nil) (*print-length* 10)) (print '(#1=(programmable . #1#) programming language))) 19:04:51 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:52 Not only circular lists, but in general all structures that have common parts. 19:04:52 it's also used for code-golf (though that's not really a practical use) 19:05:20 (let ((y (let ((X (list 1 2 3))) (list x x)))) (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (print y)) (let ((*print-circle* t)) (print y))) 19:05:37 got it, thanks 19:06:01 pieMo: beware of the defaults for the various *print- and *read- variables. 19:06:30 pieMo: you may want to set either *print-cicle* t or *print-length* and *print-level* to some small integer. 19:06:51 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:07:04 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:07:41 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:07:51 pjb: there is no such variable *print-cicle* in sbcl. *print-length* and *print-level* are both nil in sbcl 19:08:08 pieMo: *print-circle* 19:08:24 sellout-: yeah, it's nil too 19:08:26 yes, check the code ;-) 19:08:59 pieMo: (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (print 'e#1=(programmable . #1#))) 19:09:08 s/'e/'/ 19:09:44 C-g C-g to interrupt in slime. C-c in the unix terminal. 19:10:41 pjb: yep, thanks for help with understanding that thing 19:10:43 -!- pieMo [~other@188.162.64.35] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:11:22 cools [~user@CPE0026f32ba2b0-CM0026f32ba2ad.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:16 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:46 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has joined #lisp 19:17:28 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:31 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:47 nug700_ [~nug700@71-35-64-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:47 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:18:53 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-74-99.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:23:27 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:23:34 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:25:36 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:00 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:26:16 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@moobilenet-110-109.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 19:26:36 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:26:57 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:27:05 Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has joined #lisp 19:27:30 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:27:59 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@11.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 19:29:21 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:30:05 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:46 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host88.190-138-117.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:35:50 nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:16 -!- cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:31 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:42:10 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 19:45:28 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Client Quit] 19:46:48 cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@dyn-129-97-41-253.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:49:32 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@101.174.21.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:50:52 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 19:52:09 dcxi [~dcxi@11.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:14 slarti_ [~anonymous@50-202-45-98-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 -!- slarti [~anonymous@50-202-45-98-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:32 -!- slarti_ is now known as slarti 19:58:21 -!- ggole [~ggole@220-253-141-38.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:58:51 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:01:22 Emi [~Emi@cpe-76-176-71-218.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:22 ORGANasm [~ORGANasm@cpe-76-176-71-218.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:37 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 20:01:52 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:01:53 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:01 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:57 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:04:53 ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has joined #lisp 20:06:41 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat109.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:11 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:11:47 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:11:58 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat99.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:13:39 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:31 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:57 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:15:09 -!- slarti [~anonymous@50-202-45-98-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:15:59 marsam [~mario@190.117.193.76] has joined #lisp 20:16:31 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:41 drmeister: http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions 20:18:21 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:18:21 mathrick: Thanks - that's what I remember reading - I couldn't find it. 20:19:03 mhm, I always have to google around myself every time I try to reference it 20:20:01 I had convinced myself that there was a more arcane convention to explain why ECL has STRUCTURE-SUBTYPEP and STRUCTURE-SUBTYPE-P which take different arguments. 20:20:45 i don't think there could really be a good reason for that 20:21:02 drmeister: is it consistent with the above naming? 20:21:23 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:22:13 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@moobilenet-110-109.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:22:59 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@moobilenet-110-109.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 20:23:15 mathrick: No. (STRUCTURE-SUBTYPEP type1 type2) and (STRUCTURE-SUBTYPE-P object type) 20:23:33 Joreji_ [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:46 You could replace (STRUCTURE-SUBTYPE-P object type) with (STRUCTURE-SUBTYPEP (type-of object) type) 20:23:55 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:23:59 shouldn't that be "structure-typep"? not a great name either but not quite as absurd 20:24:48 yeah 20:24:49 It screwed me up for a while because I had to implement them both correctly. 20:24:57 there's TYPEP 20:25:05 it should've been STRUCTURE-TYPEP 20:25:15 On the other hand, only STRUCTURE-SUBTYPE-P is exposed to Common Lisp - the other is internal in the Cee code. 20:25:41 So it's called structure_subtypep(cl_object t1, cl_object t2) 20:26:12 Sounds good. 20:26:32 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:27:01 Hey, so I'm speeding up my compiler by switching to varargs to pass function arguments rather than passing activation-frames on the heap. 20:27:43 That is prompting me to get DEFSTRUCT to work earlier in the bootstrapping process and that's why I'm messing around with structures. 20:28:24 I can then use DEFSTRUCT in my abstract-syntax-tree's in my compiler. 20:28:53 Anyway, I'm still wrestling with the "store local variables on the stack" or "store local variables on the heap" issue. 20:29:03 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@198.178.121.206] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:29:47 So it's called structure_subtypep(cl_object t1, cl_object t2) <-- that's awfully inconsistent 20:30:10 drmeister: also, what compiler are you working on? 20:30:38 If I check every top-level form if it contains the FUNCTION special operator and instruct every lexical scope that would enclose it to store its bindings on the heap and put every other lexical scope on the stack - that would be a trivial solution to the problem wouldn't it? 20:30:50 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:31:06 mathrick: My own compiler. 20:31:13 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:31:20 simple, better, but not as good as it could be, yeah 20:31:23 as a very crude approximation of escape analysis, I guess 20:31:31 as long as you don't have LAMBDA as a primitive 20:31:46 maybe you can start there and then add free analysis later. 20:31:58 I need to a starting point - I've been spinning my wheels on this problem for a long time. Bike knows. 20:31:58 though (LAMBDA ...) does expand to #'(LAMBDA ...) by the standard 20:32:05 so I guess it's good 20:32:25 drmeister: was it you who was asking about that and escape analysis a while back? Month-two ago? 20:32:33 Yes. 20:32:36 however there might be a problem that, in practice, most functions but the very simplest are going to involve some kind of function forms 20:32:40 multile-value-bind for instance 20:32:55 MVB involves FUNCTION? 20:33:08 a common implementation is to expand to multiple-value-call of a lambda 20:34:06 If I get the machinery working to store locals on the stack and pass arguments on the stack then I've come a long way. Currently EVERYTHING I store is on the heap and it's very slow. 20:34:49 Bike: That is the implementation of MVP that I use. 20:34:57 Bike: that's MVC, not MVB though 20:35:15 MVB that I use. 20:35:15 mathrick: a common implementation /of multiple-value-bind/ is to expand to multiple-value-call. 20:35:35 hmm 20:35:46 drmeister: then with your scheme anything with an m-v-b in it is going to heap-alloc everything. for example. 20:35:49 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 just something to keep in mind. 20:35:55 https://gist.github.com/drmeister/7cb00c16675a1b17ea1d 20:36:00 how do you expand M-V-C to lambda though? 20:36:08 You don't. m-v-c is a special form. 20:36:15 Expand m-v-b to (m-v-c (lambda ...) ...). 20:36:21 oh 20:36:30 I think that's straight out of the CLHS for MVB 20:36:43 drmeister: jesus, you're writing macro functions manually? 20:36:46 Bike: right, I was reading wrong 20:36:52 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f656a4.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:14 prxq [~mommer@x2f656a4.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 Bike: It's bootstrap code - it all has to be written in pidgin Common Lisp. 20:38:07 man. that sucks. [complaints about cltl losses here] 20:38:14 When it's bootstrapping you have very few functions to work with. 20:38:46 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9F64F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:00 Bike: The language climbs out of the primordial goo. :-) 20:39:15 drmeister: is that bootstrap as in "bootstrap phase of executing the compiler binary", or "bootstrapping the dialect the compiler is written in"? 20:39:58 mathrick: To bootstrap I have an S-expression walking Common Lisp interpreter and a whole bunch of C++ functions that are exposed as Common Lisp functions. 20:41:17 munge` [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:19 It loads stuff like macros to define M-V-B and a bunch of other stuff along with a compiler that is written in pidgin Common Lisp - no structures, no LOOP macro, no FORMAT, no CLOS, no generic functions, no conditions. The compiler compiles itself and then compiles all the stuff that I just said you don't have at the start. 20:41:40 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:00 Everything has to be done in the correct order, you can't use any language feature that hasn't been compiled. 20:42:30 You need a compiler because much of the Common Lisp code depends heavily on macros and SETF and that stuff literally takes days to boot with the interpreter. 20:43:17 drmeister: right, but that's not what I asked. I was asking whether you mean "bootstrap" in the sense of the phase of *executing* the compiler image, or the phase of *writing* it (before you can rewrite it in a more complete dialect you're implementing ATM) 20:44:24 mathrick: I've spent the last year writing it and I execute it several times a day when I'm programming a lot. 20:44:59 ... 20:45:05 Mind you I stole most of the Common Lisp code (other than the compiler) from ECL. However, they stole it from CMULISP and SBCL and glob knows where-else. 20:45:13 it's still not my question 20:45:21 Sorry, what is your question? 20:45:26 drmeister: let me rephrase 20:45:29 mathrick: he means the former. 20:45:33 ah ok 20:45:48 and said as much 20:46:06 *mathrick* rereads 20:46:38 *drmeister* has trouble listening to people because the voices in his head keep interrupting. 20:46:43 heh 20:46:44 heh 20:47:03 drmeister: and you don't dump a full-CL image after you're done bootstrapping yourself? 20:47:29 Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:50 mathrick: I do. I first dump LLVM bitcode files and then I compile and link them all into a .dylib file that loads the entire Common Lisp image in about 10 seconds. 20:48:04 I need to tighten that up and speed everything up. 20:48:30 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 20:50:13 Currently my compiler is one pass - it compiles S-expressions straight into LLVM-IR. 20:50:49 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 -!- kaygun__ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:51:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:57 drmeister: is LLVM-IR portable between platforms? 20:52:31 no 20:52:33 mathrick: It has backends for different platforms. But it's not portable like the JVM 20:52:37 ah 20:52:54 stopbit [~stopbit@198.178.121.206] has joined #lisp 20:53:05 well, that's a shame, means you can't dump the pidgin implementation and rely on the LLVM to compile for the target platform when porting 20:53:22 but goog just released their portable native client specs that used a 'normalized' llvm ir bitcode that is portable 20:53:49 so that'd be viable (and you could turn your CL into a portable exe to run in chrome) 20:53:57 I'm not convinced NaCL is actually portable 20:54:10 -!- milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:10 more like "portable" as long as you run on x86 20:54:27 pnacl does arm, x86-32/64 and mips 20:54:50 all from the same image? 20:54:55 interesting 20:54:55 yes 20:55:15 the '.pexe' is this normalized llvm bitcode and the browser is expected to have the appropriate llvm backend to take it the rest of the way 20:55:16 so it recompiles the normalised IR into non-portable NaCL on the target? 20:55:20 right 20:55:21 Cool - whatever LLVM does I should be able to use. 20:55:27 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:50 erikc: is the normalised bitcode readable by ordinary LLVM? 20:56:16 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@moobilenet-110-109.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:56:25 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:40 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:03 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@192-177.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:20 not sure, it is released as a spec though (i think) 20:57:24 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:28 What's the idea with nacl - are they creating something like the JVM? 20:57:31 goog had a session on it at this week's chrome dev summit 20:57:38 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:38 drmeister: in a way, yes 20:57:58 the first NaCL was sanitised x86 machine code used as the "bytecode" for the VM 20:58:10 run in an environment that could guarantee isolation 20:59:45 drmeister: have you released any of the code your cl system? 20:59:57 for you 21:00:59 Question: what's the point of compiling to bytecode like LLVM-IR if it's not portable? 21:01:40 https://developers.google.com/native-client/dev/reference/pnacl-bitcode-abi there's the pnacl bitcode abi 21:02:04 kristof: speed on the target platform 21:02:24 for many people, if it runs on x86_64, it is portable 21:02:42 I guess I made the assumption that native machine code was faster than IR 21:03:17 erikc: Not yet - I've been working on speeding it up and I need to add proper garbage collection. 21:03:42 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:03:46 kristof: i thought the ir is then compiled to native 21:04:04 kristof: The LLVM library lowers the LLVM-IR bytecode to native code. 21:04:17 You rarely or never run the LLVM-IR directly. 21:04:23 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:04:38 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:47 -!- robot-be` is now known as robot-beethoven 21:04:51 It would be foolish for me to ask more questions about this, I'm clearly confused in some fundamental way. I'll do some reading. 21:05:07 kristof: llvm-ir is easier to convert into native code than lisp is 21:05:12 (for one thing) 21:05:44 Bike: And is it easy to convert lisp into llvm-ir? 21:05:46 -!- Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:03 OH. LLVM is a target to make creating compilers easier. 21:06:13 that's not really the point 21:06:21 Then no "oh". : 21:06:36 that's in response to the first line, not the second. llvm is indeed to help compilers 21:06:42 Aaaah, ok. 21:07:36 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:08:19 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:09:23 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:03 drmeister: It looks like what you're working on will be the first common-lisp frontend for llvm. That's cool! 21:16:42 drmeister: btw, have you looked at SICL? 21:17:07 mathrick: Yes, it's not a runnable implementation is it? 21:17:37 no, it's rather a collection of CL modules implementing standard CL construct to help implementations 21:18:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-36-35.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:44 milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-10-101.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:23:52 ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has joined #lisp 21:26:12 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f656a4.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:52 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:37 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:30:41 I looked at SICL about a couple of years ago when I started - I didn't know what to make of it. There are so many details that you have to get right in a running CL I don't know what SICL provides. 21:31:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 21:31:26 -!- marsam [~mario@190.117.193.76] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 21:32:30 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:22 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:27 drmeister: it provides a substantial body of high-level things you'd need to implement yourself or yank from elsewhere otherwise, like FORMAT and LOOP 21:36:38 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:41 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:50 and if you help improve it, it will make the next person's job easier 21:37:03 so that eventually it should be much easier to make new CL implementations 21:43:18 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 21:43:20 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b7791.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:45:26 Most of my time has been spent fixing bugs in the low level C++ code that provides support for the Common Lisp code. 21:46:36 -!- cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:11 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:19 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:50:38 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-206.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:44 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:53:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:53:15 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:53:19 -!- malbertife [~malbertif@host164-54-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:54:08 xotedend [~quassel@50-199-20-100-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:33 mathrick: SICL sounds exactly like what I've been looking for 21:56:32 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:56:58 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:38 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:57:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:53 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:11 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:59 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:12 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:49 ASau` [~user@p5083DBB8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-206.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:55 -!- ASau [~user@p5083DD1D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:20 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:37 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:08:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-101.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:03 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-199-20-100-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:12:15 -!- danielszmulewi-1 [~daniel@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewi-1] 22:15:59 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:19:31 -!- Petit_Dejeuner [~a@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:19:42 mathrick: It's not immediately apparent which SICL modules depend on which CL features 22:21:32 -!- Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has quit [Quit: Yanez] 22:21:33 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 22:22:25 ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has joined #lisp 22:22:43 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:17 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:14 -!- erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has quit [Quit: erikc] 22:26:08 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:31:52 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:20 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:34:04 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-207-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:34:29 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:39:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:01 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:15 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 22:41:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:41:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:41:58 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 22:45:26 jasom: that's possible, I'm sure beach will appreciate feedback in this regard 22:46:10 it's intended to have a clear a hierarchy, so if it's not visible, it's a documentation/organisation bug I believe 22:46:49 A very small number of directories have documented dependencies, but most don't 22:48:18 jasom: again, I'm sure beach would appreciate feedback and help here :) 22:51:13 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:52:50 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:15 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-206.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:21 hmm does portable common loops use conditions at all? 22:53:29 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:41 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-153.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:47 no idea 22:54:51 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 22:55:53 Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:56:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat99.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:56:20 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 22:59:45 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:20 -!- milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-10-101.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:02:02 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:03:29 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:12 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has quit 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