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My copy of "Practical Common Lisp" finally came in. :) 01:11:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:24 \o/ 01:11:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:02 didi: Any other books you can recommend after this? 01:15:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:15:18 What's a good way to create a copy of a pathname? (make-pathname :defaults orig)? 01:16:00 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:17:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:14 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:19 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 01:17:50 drmeiste_: what's the point? there's no mutator to pathnames. 01:19:07 But otherwise, seems a good way, indeed. 01:19:14 Good point - it turns out I'm mutating the pathname in C++ - so I'm going about it the wrong way. 01:20:03 C++ has RAII principle. 01:20:28 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:00 Yes, but I was essentially doing (let ((new-pathname (pathname orig))) {/*In C++*/ new_pathname._Type = XXXX } BZZZZZ Wrong - orig pathname was also mutated. 01:22:23 -!- txv1 [~txv@0187800210.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:22:51 -!- vircures [~vircures@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 01:22:59 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 01:23:38 txv1 [~txv@0187800210.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 01:23:45 maybe it is a reference 01:24:09 pointing to the same pathname 01:24:27 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:24:31 It is - if x is a pathname then my (pathname x) returns x. 01:24:44 Not a copy as I assumed when I wrote that. 01:25:00 Never mind - my bad. 01:26:32 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:23 nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.162] has joined #lisp 01:29:48 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:32:10 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:50 kristof: If you're into AI, people like to recommend PAIP. 01:33:13 -!- hedd_recomposing is now known as heddwch 01:33:28 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.37] has joined #lisp 01:35:43 didi: What's the expanded title? 01:36:07 kristof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigms_of_AI_Programming%3A_Case_Studies_in_Common_Lisp 01:36:49 eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.255.101] has joined #lisp 01:36:51 didi: Oh! I think I saw that in my university's library, actually. I can just borrow it instead :P 01:37:05 didi: thank you for the recommendation, though 01:37:10 kristof: yw 01:37:14 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:38:25 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.255.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:39:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0ED4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:40:56 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 01:42:37 clintm [~clintm@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:08 harish [~harish@119.234.1.60] has joined #lisp 01:47:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:02 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:32 -!- clintm [~clintm@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: clintm] 01:51:37 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host254.190-138-104.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:53:56 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:46 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:35 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:45 I know there's something very basic I'm missing here, but I'm not sure what it is. http://paste.lisp.org/display/139994 02:03:28 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:03:50 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:c525:1ef0:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:59 clintm: does bytes->string still work when called with a byte instead of a sequence? 02:04:07 clintm, FORMAT needs a stream to write to 02:04:20 (format stream "~A~%" ...) 02:04:28 or format t 02:05:04 QUad: oh wow, yea. Damn, I'm sorry. I took what I had, made a condensed version of it, but didn't test it. amateur hour. 02:07:59 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.1.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:08:00 bike: Hrm, I should have left that out. It was mainly for debugging purposes, and took away from the fact that (read-byte) is hanging. 02:08:27 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-18ba45aa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:08:53 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:11:54 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:12:52 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:41 ASau` [~user@p54AFF3C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:15:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:49 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:43 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D591.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:43 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.150.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:18:11 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:23:46 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:28 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9C4E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:12 knob [~knob@cvx-ppp-66-50-133-207.coqui.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:42 -!- knob [~knob@cvx-ppp-66-50-133-207.coqui.net] has left #lisp 02:29:10 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:29:18 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:13 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 02:39:03 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-lzkkrhdisaoaupkv] has joined #lisp 02:39:05 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 02:39:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:31 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 02:46:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:46:41 -!- eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.255.101] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:44 desophos_ [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 02:46:55 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:47:08 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:34 Emi [~Emi@cpe-76-176-71-218.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:16 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:52:32 eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.255.150] has joined #lisp 02:53:27 k0001 [~k0001@host118.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:55:56 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:c525:1ef0:3ea9:f4ff:fe31:5798] has 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[~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:54 Good morning 03:31:11 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.217] has joined #lisp 03:32:07 Good morning indeed. 03:33:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:45 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:34:34 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 03:36:01 -!- aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:36:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:21 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 03:38:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:38:59 -!- vircures [~vircures@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 03:40:11 Anything fun happening? 03:41:15 Not here, you? 03:41:34 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42:15 -!- add^_ [~user@5.241.189.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:42:17 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.225.74] has joined #lisp 03:45:24 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:53 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:09 akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:00 I got nothing 03:50:20 Even the work emails are mostly autogenerated junk 03:50:55 (and by autogenerated I mean that it's mailing list postings and stuff like that. things that are not directed to me) 03:50:58 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:53:33 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:53:49 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.153.27] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:54:37 -!- cory786 [~cory@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 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timeout: 264 seconds] 12:10:46 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-51-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:12:24 mcclim is actually super-easy to implement, i was afraid of clim and using tcl/tk all these years, never again, the world is new woohoo 12:12:58 oh boy 12:13:22 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:14:55 i hope you never need to input international characters, run your code on other platforms, or bump into any of the myriad of bugs 12:15:06 lol 12:15:19 stassats i will switch to qt when i am damn good and ready :) 12:15:58 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@li648-117.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:16:19 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:17:11 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:17:28 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 12:17:38 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 12:18:14 i don't like qt much, but it has "it bloody works" going for it 12:18:47 stassats: A pretty good description. 12:21:41 vircures [~vircures@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:46 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:08 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 12:25:17 STilda [kvirc@37.139.166.57] has joined #lisp 12:25:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:27:17 echo-area [~user@111.196.5.186] has joined #lisp 12:27:17 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28:58 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:29:17 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.152] has joined #lisp 12:29:53 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:34:02 -!- vircures [~vircures@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 12:37:09 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit 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[Quit: Leaving] 13:07:32 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-147-122.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:07 stassats what do you prefer for gui 13:10:50 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:11:04 nydel: something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Polet_Antonov_An-124-100_cockpit_Petrov.jpg/800px-Polet_Antonov_An-124-100_cockpit_Petrov.jpg 13:11:20 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:00 nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.41.73] has joined #lisp 13:14:02 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:16:31 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 13:16:35 stassats: don't you think that this one is not flexible enough? 13:17:28 hitecnologys: imagine a morphing displays, with configurable knobs and switches 13:17:43 stassats +infinity 13:18:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:20:53 stassats: that would be cool but if it's not able do a barrel roll^W^W^W^W bake a cake and make vodka then it's certainly useless. 13:22:09 -!- chrismed [~chrismed@abjd79.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:25:11 or you can 3d print all the knobs, at switch between them 13:26:29 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 a grid of knobs, the application configures the grid how it wants, some mechanisms moves them, the labels are displayed on small LCD screens 13:26:55 Sounds cool. 13:27:06 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:06 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:27:06 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:28:13 nydel: but in reality, i use qt, what i don't like is that its object model doesn't easily integrate with CL 13:29:03 stassats: why haven't anyone written CL-line wrapper for it yet? 13:29:19 CL-like* 13:29:53 you can't really fully wrap things 13:30:03 Why? 13:30:23 Qt can't create a wrapped object internally 13:30:58 i.e., if a widget creates subwidgets, they're going to be qt widgets, no clfied qt widgets 13:31:01 I mean one could write a higher level of abstraction that would manage QT objects in lispy way. 13:32:09 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 13:33:15 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:33:40 Qt provides methods for rendering interface elements, you can say it to render something that looks like a button, then you can hook into the event system, and detect that the mouse is above the rectangle where your button is supposed to be, and ask it to render a depressed button on next repaint 13:34:07 but you would have to rewrite every single thing 13:34:14 by hand 13:34:42 So, the problem is that it requires too much effort? 13:34:53 xotedend_ [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:21 and redoing something which the qt developers already accomplished 13:35:30 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:00 in practice, commonqt works quite well, even though it has a lot of indirection layers 13:36:09 I see. 13:36:23 or maybe all my CPUs are too fast 13:36:44 rather, fast enough, can't ever be too fast 13:37:30 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:59 if i ever get to rewriting smoke in cl, i could structure it the way i want, and i will be able to perform more optimizations 13:38:15 vircures [~vircures@ip-64-134-186-12.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:15 especially at compile time 13:38:59 -!- glask [~aris@ppp-2-84-115-22.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 13:39:45 Rewriting somke in CL is definitely good idea. 13:41:14 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:16 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:33 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:44 stassats: you're now edicl owner 13:44:09 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:24 stassats: i've put the release script into the edicl/release-script repository. can you send me your ssh key so that you can upload releases? 13:47:02 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:47:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:49:19 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:50:38 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51:30 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51:34 hi 13:52:02 is it possible to serialize a class object in a file like structures using sexp? 13:52:03 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 13:52:04 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:20 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:52:32 Posterdati: class object? do you mean clos object? 13:52:34 -!- ski [~md9slj@129.16.29.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:42 milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 H4ns: yes 13:53:55 LoicLisp [~loic@29.17.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:59 Posterdati: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/ may help 13:54:33 H4ns: yes, I know, does the file is human-readable? 13:54:45 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:32 Posterdati: i don't know 13:55:34 zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has joined #lisp 13:55:40 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:04 Posterdati: it depends on what you call human-readable. 14:00:15 sb-concurrency:gate doesn't look terribly tied to sbcl. Why not implement it in bordeaux-threads? 14:00:23 hitecnologys: sexp 14:00:24 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 Posterdati: no, cl-store uses more efficient representation by default. However, AFAIK there is a way to change this behaviour. But for me binary format is human-readable. 14:04:11 -!- ltsampro` [~user@adsl-167.46.190.127.tellas.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:29 -!- milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:06:08 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:06:12 milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 14:10:02 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:10:36 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:02 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:16:10 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:16:24 -!- ivan4th [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:33 hitecnologys: what isn't human-readable for you then? 14:17:03 dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:07 also I was amused to see Twilight in your CMS thing 14:18:51 stardiviner [~stardivin@li648-117.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:38 nydel: by "mcclim being super-easy to implement", you mean implementing a GUI with CLIM, or implementing a backend for McCLIM? 14:19:43 mathrick: actually, it was not fully my idea. 14:20:25 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:47 mathrick: and not human-readable for me is most of my code. 14:21:11 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 perhaps with normal word order, it you could improve 14:21:36 hitecnologys: you mean Twilight wasn't? 14:21:43 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:23:17 mathrick: yeah, I just didn't come up with better name and logo so it was chosen by fair dice roll. 14:23:49 oh 14:23:56 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:24:00 well, it's still Twilight 14:24:13 most people's dice wouldn't ever select her as the banner 14:24:21 Sure. 14:24:54 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:26:13 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:38 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:29:54 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 14:30:19 implementing a gui with clim 14:30:28 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:30:42 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-143-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@li648-117.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:31:27 stassats: clap clap (cockpit photo) 14:31:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.6.94] has joined #lisp 14:31:43 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.6.94] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 14:34:33 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:16 stassats: how hard is it to interface with C++ and/or Qt? I haven't kept up with it, so I don't quite know if they have non-C++ interfaces exposed 14:35:52 qt, not hard/not easy 14:35:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:38:33 -!- lacedaemon [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:33 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:43 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 14:38:45 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:38:50 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 stassats: so they have a usable interface that isn't C++ these days? 14:39:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:51 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:04 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 14:40:06 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:40:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:54 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:02 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 14:41:04 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:41:38 last I looked, which admittedly was a really long time ago, not even C++ had enough expressive power for their needs and they had to layer their own preprocessor on it 14:42:45 qt has what it calls MOC, Meta-Object Compiler, which allows for some degree of introspection 14:43:29 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:52 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.152] has joined #lisp 14:45:19 akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:30 fisxoj [~fisxoj@dyn-129-97-41-253.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:46:33 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:46:37 Yeah. The extra complexity put me off ever developing anything with Qt 14:46:59 extra or not, it happens to work 14:47:31 ah, right 14:48:09 but you still access their objects going through all the C++ name mangling and calling conventions and (alleged) ABI, non? 14:48:23 "happens to work" is a pretty low bar. 14:48:36 dlowe: mcclim doesn't pass it 14:49:09 heh 14:49:11 can't argue there. 14:49:22 GTK is good enough, though 14:49:35 i haven't tried gtk, but i'm sure it has many disadvantages too 14:49:36 sadly GTK+ 3 no longer really passes 14:49:47 otherwise I strongly prefer GTK+ 14:50:05 i heard it's not so great when it comes to other platforms 14:51:19 yeah, and really, really breaky on each new version, with some 3.4 new APIs being deprecated in 3.6 and removed in 3.8 (something 2.x would never do without bumping major version) 14:51:37 but it's really all problems in 3.x, 2 didn't have them 14:51:44 I'm really pissed at GNOME for that 14:51:51 i'd love to write a GUI framework with unicorns and rainbows 14:51:56 francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:58 stassats: s/unicorns and rainbows/sadists and barbed wire/ 14:53:00 How would you recommend inspecting a pointer (for example a pointer returned by SBCL / CFFI : 14:53:41 something like that: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X0028877C) ? we have its address but then? 14:53:48 you have the address 14:53:50 end of story 14:53:50 Isn't that what CAPI is supposed to be? 14:53:55 you can't "inspect a pointer" 14:54:02 unless you know what it is already 14:54:05 the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 14:54:27 dlowe: may be, but it's not free and there's no sources 14:54:32 -!- MikeSeth [~me@174.143.244.95] has quit [Changing host] 14:54:32 MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has joined #lisp 14:54:42 I don't know what it is hence the need to inspect. I know it's an object with members but no idea what they are 14:55:01 francogrex: you can ask it "are you a pointer?" with cffi:pointerp, you can dereference it with cffi:mem-ref 14:55:11 that's about a much you can do 14:55:23 The old problem of deserializing an unknown encoding. ;) 14:55:24 francogrex: you don't know C, do you? 14:55:41 if you don't have any idea what the pointer is, you're screwed 14:55:47 there's no way to find out 14:56:13 tell that to reverse engineers 14:56:20 francogrex: try casting it to a pointer of array of unsigned bytes 14:56:20 You could try inspecting the memory it points at as an octet sequence. 14:56:29 heh 14:56:32 francogrex: dump it byte by byte, see what it looks like 14:57:03 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:57:16 it's an idea, it will cause me more confusion but since I have no other option... 14:57:21 stassats: tell me when you write a generic reverse-engineer in Lisp, I'd like to have a look 14:57:41 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:58:14 francogrex: where are you even getting your pointers from, and do you want to "inspect it" one time, or reliably on multiple runs? 14:58:44 mathrick: is that the only way to solve it? with "a generic reverse-engineer in Lisp"? 15:00:40 no, but it's pretty much what I gathered francogrex was asking for 15:02:26 mathrick: I am using OLE interacting with excel interop; you need to be windows oriented to know the specific details 15:03:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:03:45 francogrex: OK, that's fine, but why are you getting an unknown pointer? OLE/COM already has built-in IUnknown, so if you're using an actual OLE object, you should be able to inspect it using OLE tools 15:03:46 if it has a public API, then what's the deal with chasing pointers? 15:04:32 francogrex: you need to tell us things before asking such questions, because "how do I inspect a pointer" has no answer 15:05:21 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:41 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:09:29 ok here is an example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139999 the docs of msdn are very poor that they have no good ref to know what are the members 15:10:33 -!- vircures [~vircures@ip-64-134-186-12.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:12:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:13:03 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:13:15 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:13:20 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:13:22 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 15:14:52 ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.106] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:15:37 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.100] has joined #lisp 15:17:30 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-143-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:17:35 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan252061.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:03 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.41.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:23 francogrex: why don't you start with the OLE tools first? What interfaces does it support? You don't want to inspect a pointer if you can help it, so you should be using all the tools you can before that 15:18:44 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-199-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:57 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:19:03 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:03 -!- francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:42 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:46 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:22 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.100] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:05 mathrick: yes ok I am looking there on how to inspect the objects from within OLE/COM 15:21:19 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:58 I'd kinda assume you knew that before trying to use OLE interfaces 15:27:42 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-0-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:28 no OLE interfaces are very poorly documented and no longer actively supported to boot but they are still useful 15:30:13 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:30:39 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:35 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:57 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:43 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.70.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:35:45 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-80-23.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:22 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:41 oxum [~oxum@122.164.78.243] has joined #lisp 15:38:27 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 15:44:23 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 15:47:29 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-61-23-195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:18 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:45 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.78.243] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 15:52:01 oxum [~oxum@122.164.78.243] has joined #lisp 15:52:15 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 15:55:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:55:18 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:28 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:25 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:57:00 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:39 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 16:00:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:00:00 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:00:23 normanri_ [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:01 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:01:17 Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 -!- zacharias is now known as gru 16:03:23 -!- gru is now known as zacharias 16:04:33 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 16:05:14 rme [~rme@50.43.172.204] has joined #lisp 16:06:08 What's the mailing list software on common-lisp.net? I'm looking for the documentation so I can unsubscribe from some lists. 16:06:31 rme: http://common-lisp.net/listinfo.html 16:06:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:41 thanks 16:06:49 i like how _yet_ is underscored 16:07:12 it will be mailman again soon, and you'll all have to re-unsubscribe again. 16:07:18 sorry to have to say that. 16:08:29 i'm now getting emails from 8 hours ago, nice feature 16:09:18 kaygun__ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 16:09:33 oh, it's due to moderation 16:10:02 it's interesting to see emails through CC and quoted, then through the ML 16:13:25 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-0-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:15:33 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 16:17:21 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-61-23-195.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:17:42 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:54 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-hkyefezmymxhxamm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:19:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:20:50 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:09 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:21:18 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:21 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:49 heddwch_laptop [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 16:22:06 -!- francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:23:52 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:24:26 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:43 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:21 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:28:28 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:50 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32:13 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:33:05 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:05 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:33:05 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:34:50 Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 16:35:20 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 16:36:42 stassats: what's the problem with wrapping Qt objects (assuming it can be described briefly)? 16:37:07 what problem? 16:37:50 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:38:08 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:38:28 stassats: you said sub-widgets can't be wrapped 16:38:54 that's true, they can't 16:39:56 but why? What causes that? 16:41:04 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 16:41:25 that seems like an obvious problem, do you have a suggestion to make it work? 16:41:45 ck [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.78.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:42:02 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:05 the one doesn't involved modifying qt, that is 16:43:33 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:43:35 stassats: if Qt objects are introspectable, which I believe they are, can't you wrap things on the go? 16:43:42 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:48 this is roughly how CL-GTK2 and pygtk do things 16:44:11 what does it mean to wrap on the go? 16:44:19 oxum [~oxum@122.164.11.165] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:41 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:56 stassats: that when you receive a new GObject you haven't seen previously, you make a new CL-side wrapper exposing its type and methods 16:45:09 that's not a wrapper than 16:45:10 then 16:45:20 what's not a wrapper? 16:45:30 in the sense that was being originally discussed 16:45:30 I might not understand your definition of "wrapper" 16:45:50 stassats: OK, I think I see it 16:46:09 -!- ck [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:20 CL-GTK2 works by having a bunch of macros grovelled from the headers, since it doesn't use the newer GIntrospection support 16:46:38 so it statically defines every type of object it wants to support 16:47:01 that's a general problem, you can't convince some third party piece of code to instantiate your class, unless there are provisions for that 16:47:15 wrappers through hashtables suck 16:47:18 oh, GObject has those provisions 16:47:34 -!- `fogus [~fogus@70.182.191.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:38 they're not entirely perfect, but you can largely write a new widget in CL 16:47:55 they're better in later versions which do sport comprehensive GIntrospection support 16:48:20 can you say to gtk, take all the GtkPushButton, and replace it with CLGtkPushButton? 16:48:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:51 unsure what you mean, why / what for would you want to do that? 16:49:08 to make a wrapper 16:49:12 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:49:36 why'd you need that to make a wrapper? Wrappers wrap, they don't replace 16:49:51 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:50:41 if you have a composite GTK widget and it exposes API to get at the constituent parts, then what happens if you use that API from CL-GTK2 is that it returns, say GtkButton, and then CL-GTK2 makes and instance of gtk-button wrapping it 16:50:55 *an instance 16:51:12 so on the CL side, what you get is a GTK-BUTTON 16:51:27 but what the C side returned is a GtkButton 16:52:08 what i like about clim is that i'm not obsessing over event-handling in the same manner as with tcl/tk & with gtk (in common lisp, i know tcl/tk does its own thing to an extent) 16:52:14 i'm not really interested what gtk does 16:53:04 i assume that qt with common lisp which is probably smoke(?) involves event handlers like most foreign thingies 16:53:26 stassats: you don't need to be, but I don't understand why you can't do the same for Qt (and what you mean by "wrapper" still) 16:53:29 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.11.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:53:34 nydel: i'm not sure what you mean by event handlers 16:53:41 nydel: qt has a notion of signals 16:53:45 you use definitions that aren't shared by anyone I know and then refuse to explain what your definition is 16:54:16 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:20 It is smoke 16:54:38 stassats: with cl-tk for example, you construct your gui with forms - functions/macros mostly - and they involve some event-handler property which is sent to a macro 16:54:41 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 16:54:54 mathrick: because i don't want to explain it 16:55:14 and then an event loop is built, or an event list if the program ends 16:55:18 are you planning on working with commonqt internals? or writing a qt wrapper? 16:55:32 otherwise, explaining it is just a waste of my time 16:55:43 (the event is a lambda function almost always) 16:56:01 oxum [~oxum@122.164.191.14] has joined #lisp 16:56:58 nydel: how does clim do it? 16:57:12 my programs would often get stuck or need some sort of periodic push in the event list. for example events stack up if the events stop being handles which happens with foreign interfacing 16:57:12 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:57:20 nydel: maybe it's all the same under the hood, but in qt, you connect signals to slots 16:57:30 and slots can be just functions 16:58:16 under the hood, there's an event handler, handling the event from the graphical system, of course 16:58:23 jasom: i'm not completely clear on how clim does it, i'm only halfway thru the manual (pdf, on mcclim project site) but all of clim is written in common lisp so there is no foreign interface i know about 16:58:23 stassats: whatever, I was trying to share what CL-GTK2 does in the hopes it'd be applicable to Qt, which is fairly similar in structure, but I guess you just hate being communicative 16:58:26 and if you freeze the thread where it happens, nothing will render 16:58:49 that's true of course yes stassats i meant handling of non-lisp 16:58:51 nydel: well if I were writing a tk app in tcl, or a gtk+ app in C, I would still be using event handling 16:58:56 specifically non-lisp that is 16:59:10 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:59:23 jasom: from what little I know of CLIM, you do it by defining methods on your objects 16:59:24 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.172.204] has left #lisp 16:59:39 a lot seems to go wrong for me. i'm not quite advanced enough to fully understand a package like CLFFI (double-checking that name) 16:59:45 nydel: there's no problems with handling foreign code 16:59:55 which is less kosher to my brain, as I'm used to events and onClick and friends are not exactly my favourite 17:00:10 nydel: close, it's CFFI 17:00:20 thankyou mathrick 17:00:29 cmack [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-220.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:17 *jasom* did some quick reading, and it sounds like clim uses the GUI to generate a stream of commands 17:01:19 nydel: and clim has an event loop too, if you stop it, nothing will happen as well 17:01:52 stassats do you use the cffi package when you're building a qt gui 17:02:03 nydel: naturally 17:03:05 jasom: that sentence didn't make much sense 17:03:30 nydel: if you mean, does my program, which uses commonqt, use cffi directly, then no, it doesn't have to, that's what commonqt is for, to make things easier and comprehensible 17:04:15 i need to do some reading on commonqt/qt 17:04:54 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 17:05:05 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-222-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:05:38 i used a lovely gui ide for qt, creator/designer i think it was called. that doesn't happen to support lisp code does it 17:05:54 not really 17:06:02 mathrick: I just browsed for about 1 minute, but it sounds like clim events get translated into commands (think name + arguments) and you write your application as a set of commands plus a set of rules for translating from gui events to commands 17:06:51 mathrick: with menu items and hotkeys going straight to commands and other things being slightly more complicated 17:06:52 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 17:07:16 there's an interpreter control which is pretty basic and involves typig the commands in command sets 17:07:29 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 it looks like (e.g. it is) an repl 17:07:48 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 17:08:01 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:27 montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.228.7] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 17:08:45 -!- umontabea [~abeaumont@77.231.255.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:58 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.191.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:09:08 s/typig/typing/g 17:09:14 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:09:27 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:09:30 nydel: well it seems like layering something similar on top of qt/gtk/ltk would be as simple as making all event handlers generate commands... 17:09:53 i was just thinking that 17:10:03 oxum [~oxum@122.164.143.151] has joined #lisp 17:10:10 which makes sense as most low-level windowing systems are event based (e.g. X11) 17:10:12 about tk 17:11:52 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:11:52 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:12:26 Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 17:12:28 & if i'm simply drawn to the syntax then i've not a good argument for the software necessarily 17:12:44 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-222-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:17 i was intrigued by clim too, but then i tried to use it 17:13:18 -!- montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.228.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:13:22 nydel: syntax does matter; why reinvent the wheel if someone's already done it to your liking? 17:13:35 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:13:39 stassats: same here 17:14:21 am i the only one with a CLIM success story? 17:14:39 no Quadrescence so far i've had a lovely time with it 17:14:47 okay good 17:14:53 Didn't CMU experiment with a declarative GUI on top of clim? Named after a gemstone or something... 17:15:00 Quadrescence: yes 17:15:01 I used Lispworks CLIM for a small inventory control system and it managed quite well 17:15:04 i got up to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dv_mNE4AN8 you can see pixmaps being corrupted, and the errors when moused is dragged in a certain way, in all their glory 17:15:05 but not enough to constitute a story i suppose, do tell your experience? 17:15:33 oh garnet, and based off of clx not clim 17:15:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:00 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:16:38 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:13 nydel, i guess there's not much of a story. just wrote a database editor with a good number of features 17:17:23 oh wow i didn't realize there was a lispworks ide built for under gtk+ 17:17:41 (and it made some money) 17:17:50 Quadrescence: when was that, and what CLIM did you use ? 17:18:08 I suppose many of the complaints are against mcclim 17:18:20 Quadrescence that's basically what i've been doing. i like to log many small events and define parameters of event types as i go, and clim made it very easy to write that as a gui 17:19:03 fe[nl]ix, it was a few years ago. i'm pretty sure I used LW CLIM but I might have compiled it for McCLIM but now I don't remember if that was used in the final thing or not 17:19:22 no money though (some keeping track of money but no making) 17:19:29 do you have screenshots of it ? 17:19:41 definitely not right now, no 17:19:56 that would require a bit of archaeology 17:20:03 fe[nl]ix: true, I've only tried mcclim 17:20:11 i'm doing things in sbcl, i actually just now noticed there's a lispworks ide for under gtk+ 17:20:40 it's not free, if you want to develop anything for it 17:20:55 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:35 montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.255.13] has joined #lisp 17:22:17 slime and i are pretty married anyway 17:22:24 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:22:46 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:22:59 does slime support custom indentation commands? i dont remember if it does 17:23:12 and that was one of the redeeming features of Other Editors (TM) 17:23:15 "commands"? you can configure indentation fairly easily yes 17:23:29 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 17:23:30 yes "commands", not sure what else to call them 17:23:33 i'm sure it does, emacs will indent anything however you tell it to 17:23:55 "can you configure indentation" and yes, you can, and specify pretty complex things fairly simply at that 17:23:56 but it autoindents like a dream and i've never thought to or needed to mess with it 17:24:41 i often specify custom macro indentation it can't figure out, or &body to certain functions 17:24:43 nydel, define some macros sometime 17:24:59 Quadrescence: I've only needed it once; it seems to indent based upon the lambda list and do a good job 17:25:06 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-0-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:21 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:25:26 (err, that came off as a bit condescending. I meant "define some macros that have semi-standard indentation but nonetheless will get indented 'incorrectly'") 17:25:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:25:59 e.g. something like multiple-value-bind 17:26:01 a good example is a macro where the body is a lot of keywords, not an explicit &body 17:26:03 so long as i've defined my macros in the instance it's never let me down, but i could imagine it happening 17:26:05 or that 17:26:19 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.27.60] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:26:29 -!- montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.255.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:31 anyway it's just a nice perk to be able to do it easily and declaratively 17:26:32 at that point i'm sure there'll be customization to the limit of imagination 17:26:52 sure is Quadrescence, and lispworks ide does that? 17:26:54 montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.225.117] has joined #lisp 17:27:17 Oh, lispworks has a free edition 17:27:20 I keep forgetting 17:27:29 except that it is crippled 17:27:36 Ah 17:27:41 I'll stick with emacs and slime then 17:28:16 I've heard good things about the ZMACS editor in Genera 17:28:17 Is there a common-lisp implementation of slime? (Not swank, but a client to talk to swank) 17:28:32 jasom: It wouldn't integrate well with Emacs, then. 17:29:06 kristof: I know, but there's a half-dozen lisp editors; might be nice if they could use common code for doing IDEish things 17:29:07 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:28 I know climacs was working on something at some point 17:29:38 Same with LICE 17:29:50 jasom: well right, there are commands, but you still need to handle them somehow in your code. Popular styles are: #1 one global dispatch procedure with a giant switch() (eg. win32) #2 handler methods like onClick (eg. Swing) #3 signals and slots + lambdas or equivalent (un)registered as handlers for given signal (eg. GTK+, Qt) 17:29:57 Turns out sabetts is still alive, he responded to me on twitter about my request for the lice code :P 17:30:03 nydel, yes, (editor:setup-indentation "something-like-mvb" 1 2 4) will indent something-like-mvb with the first 1 arguments indented with 4 spaces, all others with 2 spaces 17:30:08 CLIM, from what I understand, goes with #2, define methods 17:30:33 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.143.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:16 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:21 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:36 mathrick: clim from what I understand treats events as a stream of commands, with a table of command-names 17:31:43 kristof: LICE was the Emacs-like for Movitz, no? 17:31:52 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 17:31:57 jasom: and how do they get *executed* then? 17:32:24 mathrick: That's the one. I (not-so-)secretly consider sabetts to be an unspoken hero :P He worked a lot on movitz, too 17:32:58 kristof: I've never used LICE, and when I tried to get a copy (preferably a runnable one) recently, it turned out there were none the interwebs knew about 17:33:38 I assume that's also why you had to tweet him about tht 17:33:46 damn my broken keyboard 17:33:47 mathrick: Let me share you the link he shared me (for some reason, he didn't leave it up in his github repository (out of disdain for the whole project?)) 17:34:03 why'd he be disdained? 17:34:17 mathrick: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-4.html#_1531 17:34:34 mathrick: It's a humongous effort trying to port Emacs. 17:34:58 It's easy to port emacs core, it's hard to port all the elisp around it 17:35:53 mathrick: Not to mention all the work he put into Movitz. And yet, look at the movitz mailing list. The website is full of dead links, the mailing list has a thread every 6 months, and it's not an active topic of discussion, even as a fantasy, in any lisp circle, this channel included. 17:35:56 well I guess "easy" is relative in this case 17:36:26 jasom: Is it? I've seen some attempts. In fact, I was just about to say that if I were to do any porting of emacs at all, I would simply write an elisp interpreter in common lisp. 17:36:32 jasom: of which there is no current implementation 17:37:27 kristof: part of the issue is that you would basically need to clone the internals of emacs for an elisp interpreter to even make any sense 17:37:40 jasom: What do you mean? 17:37:53 jasom: I simply repeated what you said. Rewrite the (c) core of emacs in common lisp. 17:38:14 kristof: yup, and then you are left with something no better than gnu emacs 17:38:18 jasom: most of elisp is frankly useless and only serves to make Emacs core slightly less horrible to deal with 17:38:30 jasom: Except now it can run on a common lisp platform like movitz ;) 17:38:48 and a good deal of the rest serves to provide what a well-designed emacs should have out of the box anywy 17:39:01 jasom: what mathrick said. I've seen some talk (I can give you the link if I want) that writing an elisp interpreter in common lisp would remove a lot of code because elisp can just "borrow" some things. 17:39:43 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 17:39:46 mathrick: I don't know how informed your opinion is about this (mine isn't either, I'm not going to pretend I know) but the person I was talking about is very familiar with emacs code and had the same sentiments. 17:39:46 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has left #lisp 17:40:15 someone tried to do this: http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 17:40:16 mathrick: does that apply to slime? 17:40:21 kristof: aye, but the project kinda died because the creator pretty much arrived at the same spot, it was just too much work for basic things which aren't the interesting problems you'd deal with but have to 17:40:31 jasom: SLIME is Special 17:40:32 the last entry was in 2012 and titled "Difficulties of Elisp" 17:40:32 dlowe: That was the one 17:40:40 Yup, I noticed that too 17:41:04 Might be a corollary to the lisp curse. Even if projects are going well, they eventually die and nobody was handed the code to keep working. 17:41:30 I suspect it was just a lot harder than he was thinking 17:41:51 dlowe: He said it was very hard to begin with, so no surprises there 17:41:53 cmm [~cmm@109.67.179.13] has joined #lisp 17:41:57 k0001 [~k0001@host118.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:42:02 dlowe: Oh, actually, the first makes it sound like a small walk in the park 17:42:05 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:07 that doesn't mean it couldn't be harder 17:42:13 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-80-23.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:18 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 17:42:26 -!- montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.225.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:35 and I can tell you from experience - translating a large C project to lisp is a mind-numbing task with little reward 17:42:43 ontabeaum [~abeaumont@77.231.228.78] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 dlowe: Anyway, if someone can pester him for the code (I didn't see any links in his blog), then that work isn't lost; the ideas are there, some pitfalls are identified, and everything he did can be built upon. 17:42:55 kristof: I'm a long time heavy user and hacker, and I attacked the problem of improving Emacs several times, including a dive into the C core and dabbling with CEDET/Semantic, and having written lots of code to deal with GNU Emacs over the years 17:43:11 mathrick: Then you totally know more about this than I do :) 17:43:17 my conclusion is based mostly on trying to find a working approach a few time and failing 17:43:20 oxum [~oxum@122.164.10.54] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 there simply isn't much in GNU Emacs worth salvaging other than the core model of an editor 17:44:13 mathrick: Oh? What's the part not worth saving? 17:44:26 the implementation part, I'm guessing 17:44:38 Heh... funny that I'm reading that message in emacs. 17:44:39 Stygia [~gmpsaifi@x1-6-00-21-9b-e8-d0-5a.k663.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 17:44:43 haha 17:44:47 mathrick: gnus erc slime bbdb &ct 17:44:54 Krystof: if you remove wrappers to make the core bearable, implementations of things a well-designed editor should ship with, needless duplication of other packages and hacks to keep elisp written 20 years ago running, there's really not much left in GNU emacs 17:44:56 ManateeLazycat [~user@58.48.180.126] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 jasom: i hate gnus 17:45:08 mathrick: interesting mistab :P 17:45:18 oh right 17:45:24 i wish i weren't lazy to start using something else 17:45:24 kristof: :) 17:45:42 many, many programs are horrible under the hood and are quite usable 17:45:47 and vice versa 17:46:02 mathrick: So what's the best course of action? 17:46:04 stassats: I don't use it either, but it seems to be widely used, so it's an example of why maintaining elisp compatibility would be needed, and if you maintain elisp compatibility, why did you do the mind-numbing rewrite? 17:46:32 kristof: work with beach on Climacs 2 and CLIM3, which I sort of started doing already 17:46:58 What was wrong with climacs 1? 17:47:03 hehe 17:47:04 mathrick: Assuming one simply wrote an elisp interpreter in common lisp, what else would need to be done to have a (terminal) emacs running on something like movitz? 17:47:07 kristof: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis 17:47:14 kristof: everything 17:47:18 ouch 17:47:24 It got 'mind numbing', perhaps. 17:47:28 elisp interpreter is really a one-evening hack 17:47:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for interpreter is really a one-evening hack. 17:47:40 who programmed specbot that way and why 17:47:47 elisp concat 17:47:47 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for concat. 17:48:03 that's not very useful if it can't even look up function names 17:48:04 kristof: think of everything in elisp that calls into emacs 17:48:11 elisp CONCAT 17:48:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for CONCAT. 17:48:12 kristof: buffer, keyboard, display interactions 17:48:23 elisp die 17:48:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for die. 17:48:27 you can stop trying, there's no elisp base connected 17:48:35 so what is the point 17:48:49 to annoy people, naturally 17:49:02 people who might be tempted to talk about elisp in a common lisp channel :) 17:49:06 jasom: There are libraries for that kind of stuff, isn't there? 17:49:14 especially those people 17:49:14 -!- dandersen [~dan@unaffiliated/dandersen] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:49:27 kristof: it's what gnu emacs *is* 17:49:31 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:34 sigh 17:49:44 you can't have a library that "just provides" it 17:49:45 kristof: you need to recreate the exact API that emacs implements 17:49:47 mathrick: so: nontrivial effort, huh? 17:49:52 yes, and pointless 17:50:10 because if you're writing an emacs, you can do massively better than gnu emaacs 17:50:11 clhs on the other hand, cannot be so easily confused 17:50:11 CrazyEddy [~Linguatul@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:50:14 mathrick: well, not pointless in the context of something like movitz. But movitz itself is kind of pointless anyway. 17:50:16 clhs list 17:50:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 17:50:25 mathrick: that's a bold statement 17:50:46 mathrick: except worse is better 17:51:18 kristof: I've used gnu emacs for about 15 years at this point, and been op in #emacs for maybe 8. I feel slightly knowledgeable about that particular point :) 17:51:23 oh, and also 17:51:32 GNU Emacs the project is absolutely unworkable 17:51:43 Isn't that true for GNU anything? :) 17:51:59 it's way better since RMS stepped down, but that only dialed it back from "ridiculous" to "dysfunctional" 17:52:16 a lot of it, yeah 17:52:18 uhhh, what was RMS doing? besides starting fights with the xemacs people 17:52:30 -!- Zagaba [~user@modemcable009.239-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:33 projects which are adopted into GNU after becoming notable before tend to do better 17:52:57 kristof: preventing useful work from being done and patches landing in less than several years 17:53:34 also violently opposing any attempts at restructuring the code into a better shape and more useful for what a modern editor needs to do 17:53:48 ...Why would he do that? ._. 17:54:01 I think the hint is somewhere in "RMS" 17:54:23 Well, yes, that seems like something he would do but as far as rationale is concerned, I'm not seeing it 17:54:33 I'm sure this whole thing is well documented somewhere on the web 17:54:56 kristof: oh and also! Telling people to rewrite their code using cl.el into painfully awful code not using that, despite cl.el being in the core for decades now 17:55:13 and making sure there's a compile-time warning if you dare use the built-in cl.el in your code 17:55:15 because no CL 17:55:26 deep breaths. 17:55:32 mathrick: just curious, does the Guile work that Anthony Wingo did, or has been doing, offer any ideas that climacs might borrow or is it still better to forge its own way? 17:55:33 mathrick: ok, that one I agree with you on. 17:55:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:56:17 I'm still curious as to what happened with climacs 1. Last I heard, someone was trying to add a partial expression parser to it 17:56:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.189.106] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:56:20 cmack: Anthony? Last time I checked, he was Andy Wingo, so unless he changed his name recently... :) 17:56:39 mathrick: agh my mistake 17:56:42 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:30 mathrick: I've read his explanation of why he doesn't like common lisp but I didn't know that he was outright against cl.el 17:57:39 last news on climacs was 2008 :( 17:57:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:57:56 cmack: not really. I just don't see GNU Emacs as a model to follow. Everything interesting to come in GNU Emacs is either so generic (be extensible, be scriptable, be a lisp, use minibuffer, etc.) it's not a useful thing to borrow because it's a basic Emacs concept, or happened despite it being GNU Emacs 17:57:57 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:05 it's a piss-poor emacs in other words 17:58:15 Raed8 [~other@188.162.65.80] has joined #lisp 17:58:20 and it's really bad we have no better ones 17:58:27 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 hi 17:58:32 but a shadow of the ideal emacs 17:58:51 dlowe: climacs is being resurrected in CLIM3, see the github links I pasted above 17:58:59 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 mathrick: I can see why you want to work on climacs 2 so much. 17:59:36 dlowe: name anything about GNU Emacs and I'm almost sure I'll be able to tell you how you could do better than that 18:00:07 kristof: indeed. It's been a project I've been itching for for some 5 years, give or take 18:00:10 mathrick: hm? I'm absolutely not arguing 18:00:20 what was name of function which adds element to list's tail? 18:00:27 and mutatates it 18:00:28 Raed8: append 18:00:31 Raed8: nconc 18:00:44 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 18:00:46 dlowe: thanks 18:00:49 or (setf (cdr (last list)) ...) 18:00:54 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:00:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.151.176] has joined #lisp 18:00:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.151.176] has quit [Changing host] 18:00:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:01:01 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:05 dlowe: ah, alright 18:01:26 nconc isn't guaranteed to change other references to the list, (setf (cdr (last list)) ...) should 18:01:36 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 18:01:51 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:51 mathrick: What's the difference between climatis and climacs? I suppose climacs is the actuall editor but what is the former? 18:02:12 Oh, it's clim 3 :P I seem to not be able to read. 18:02:18 attila_lendvai: poke? How compatible is reiterate with ITERATE, and is it true you're using a code-walker in reiterate (getting rid of which was the point of rewriting ITERATE)? 18:02:21 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:02:54 hm, nconc makes cons, it's not like mutating append 18:02:59 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:03:01 kristof: yeah, it's a reference implementation / playground of CLIM3 (there's no other CLIM3 so far, and the spec is far from being finalised, so it'll be that way for a while) 18:03:11 ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.225.117] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 hm, no it's like append 18:03:41 all lists are conses 18:03:48 well 18:03:51 aside from () 18:03:54 which isn't 18:04:10 yeah, according to clhs it appends two list 18:04:11 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 18:04:14 mathrick: Interesting discussion! Thanks for your time :) I'll keep this stuff in mind if I ever become proficient in common lisp. 18:04:26 but i need to add a value to tail of list in mutating way 18:04:41 mathrick: Genera as a project is interesting to me so the idea of usable, advanced common lisp environments is interesting to me, too. 18:04:46 kristof: no problem, I'm very easy to persuade to gripe about emacs :) 18:04:52 and yeah 18:05:09 -!- ontabeaum [~abeaumont@77.231.228.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:05:22 kristof: re: genera, you might be interested in https://github.com/mathrick/opengenera 18:05:26 mathrick: (that's why movitz was interesting to me, but it's obvious now that the best way to go about things is to develop a lisp computing environment on top of linux as a platform. Or perhaps you disagree?) 18:05:37 mathrick: No way. Is that legal? 18:05:38 mathrick: he's not using a codewalker in the conventional sense. He's using COMPILE with macros that save the relevant information, and then discarding the result 18:05:40 Raed8: then you'll need to make a cons 18:05:42 ejbs [~user@h77-53-86-68.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:50 kristof: there's no og2.bz2 shipped, so sure 18:05:54 it just builds a VM 18:06:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:06 Raed8: since adding an element to a list always needs another cons (for a proper list anyway) 18:06:10 mathrick: Oh, I see. :) 18:06:39 jasom: cons doesn't mutates + cons adds elemens to the head of list 18:06:49 Raed8: cons creates a cons cell 18:07:05 Raed8: in some cases that means adding an element to the head of a list 18:07:10 "a cons [cell]" is different from the function CONS 18:07:14 kristof: and yes, I disagree, including disagreeing with beach and pjb on that. I think the way is to build on top of a good microkernel (ie. a decent L4 implementation) with SBCL or other mature implementation running the show. pjb thinks running SBCL as a sole linux process is the way 18:07:34 Do you guys know if there's a way to get a collection of all the loaded ASDF-systems? 18:07:38 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:07:46 dlowe: ah, so that's the "walker" that was the beginning of the rewrite 18:07:52 -!- ManateeLazycat [~user@58.48.180.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:07 Raed8: (nconc some-ist (cons new-element nil)) will return a list that has new-element on the end 18:08:07 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-118.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:08:17 mathrick: Well, I meant practical solutions for the short term. 18:08:27 mathrick: I thought it was rather clever. 18:08:32 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:04 mathrick: And theroetically, if there's a solid common lisp bedrock environment that people can hack on and work on on top of linux, then that work isn't lost in the eventual microkernel implementation. 18:09:12 kristof: in the short term, it's run as much CL as you can that exists today. Quite a bit CLIM apps do if you look around, though most of them in various stages of bit-rot 18:09:21 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:09:26 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:26 and yes, on top of Linux is the practical platform 18:09:48 Raed8: so will (setf (cdr (last some-list)) (cons new-element nil)) 18:09:57 mathrick: CLIM, including CL libraries in general, always appear to be slightly moldy 18:10:13 mathrick: Oh well. It's been nice talking to you, hopefully we can continue this discussion some other time. 18:10:15 kristof: in the long term, it's L4 with SBCL and carefully crafted guest POSIX subsystems for stealing drivers / running apps we need but don't have in CL / both 18:10:27 kristof: same, let's hope 18:10:32 mathrick: Oh, so that's how you solve the driver problem 18:10:40 I wonder, does Hurd do something like that? 18:10:57 I dunno, but Hurd is built on Mach, so it fails already :P 18:11:02 Ok, found it. *defined-systems* 18:11:03 hahahaha alright 18:11:05 -!- heddwch_laptop [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:11:12 Mach is not a kernel you actually implement multiple subsystems on 18:11:19 jasom: thanks, i think i have to make such function bu myself afterall, just was wondering if such function was already there, because doing (nconc list (list x)) all the time is horrible 18:11:24 mathrick: I don't know if you've heard about Singularity, but apparently it solves a few problems that microkernels have in general, namely the cost of context switching 18:11:37 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.10.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:11:38 Raed8: if you're doing that a lot, you might consider changing how you're doing things 18:11:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:11:54 kristof: yes, and the approach taken in a CL-OS would also ideally do that 18:12:01 jasom: why, is it wrong? 18:12:04 mathrick: Oh, sweet 18:12:09 Raed8: e.g. use loop + collect or use PUSH and then NREVERSE at the end 18:12:23 mathrick: I guess I can assume that you're familiar with the loper-os guy, then 18:12:37 huh? i just need to add element at the end of a list, why loop? 18:12:38 Raed8: doing lots of appending to the end of a singly-linked list is a code-smell; it's not wrong, it's just odd 18:12:38 kristof: L4 solves *most* of the problem by being very, very carefully done, so that a good implementation can have IPC barely more expensive than a CALL 18:12:57 I think the current generation of L4s can shave it down to 2x-3x a funcall 18:13:06 which is *really* fast 18:13:13 ah, okay, i admint it 18:13:28 Raed8: But the question is *why* do you need to add an element to the end of a list? And why do you need to to it so often that you want to write a function for it? 18:13:45 it's not odd, it's slow 18:13:51 oxum [~oxum@122.164.187.38] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 mathrick: That's utterly fascinating. Does this common-lisp-L4 project have a homepage, or at least some notes scribbled down? 18:13:57 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:14:39 jasom: i guess you're right, i can be fine by just adding to a head, so my next question is there builtin (lambda (x list) (setf list (cons x list))) ? :) 18:14:41 Outside of CS homework "Add an element to the end of a list" isn't a problem to be solved, it's a tool to solve some other problem; maybe it's the correct tool in your case, maybe not 18:14:49 Raed8: PUSH 18:15:00 thank you 18:15:09 Raed8: i hop you know that it can't be a function 18:15:21 and what you showed, wouldn't work 18:15:47 the lambda argument LIST should instead be a variable being closed over 18:16:15 Raed8: yeah, modifying the head of a list passed as a function argument won't work, since lisp is pass-by-value 18:16:51 kristof: not really, it's a pie in the sky at the moment. I have thought about many things, including security and drivers, to a lesser or greater extent, but that's really a project I'd like to have running sometime this decade, so nothing urgent. You can look for notes by beach at https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS, but it's not necessarily entirely consistent with my thoughts 18:16:52 it will work, but not with the CONS function and with NIL 18:17:08 with NIL as in, not with NIL 18:17:36 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:18:08 kristof: as for loper-os, I vaguely recall seeing the name, but nothing specific 18:18:32 stassats: I suppose (setf (cdr list) (cons (car list) (cdr list)) (car list x)) would work, but still not with NIL 18:18:32 oh that 18:18:38 mathrick: Found a mailing list! I hope you were aware of it: http://ecls.wikispaces.com/L4Porting 18:18:46 jasom: "still", nothing will 18:18:49 er and move the 2nd to last ) behind 18:18:49 heh, good to know thanks, but why (lambda (x list) (nconc list (cons x nil))) works then? 18:18:51 mathrick: And it's a blog written by a nutjob who longs for lisp machines. 18:18:52 yeah, there's a sizeable L4 community 18:19:00 kristof: yes, with emphasis on "nutjob" 18:19:08 Raed8: nconc modifies the last cons 18:19:12 kristof: oh, ECLS, no, haven't seen that 18:19:47 ecl is not the implementation I'd really base it on though 18:20:01 mathrick: He descended into madness and now works on his fpga spinning his wheels, but I read every single blog post he's ever written and that was what got me so interested in lisp operating systems in general. 18:20:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@84-236-114-222.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 18:20:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@84-236-114-222.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 18:20:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:20:20 stassats: so when i'm passing list to function it actually passes just head of the list by value and tail of it is reference? 18:20:23 -!- echo-area [~user@111.196.5.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:20:34 oxum_ [~oxum@122.164.186.128] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.187.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:20:46 -!- oxum_ is now known as oxum 18:20:48 Raed8: everything by reference, but it passes the head 18:20:50 Raed8: it passes a reference to a CONS 18:20:51 mathrick: He also refues to work on x86 anymore, or "inferior" von-neumann architectures. Pity, because it seems like he's an intelligent person with a lot of passion and common lisp experience. 18:21:02 kristof: yeah, it's a good idea, but there's more than a fair share of nuts and misguided people around it 18:21:20 Raed8: but if you modify the variable storing the reference, it doesn't modify what's passed in. 18:21:31 mathrick: the person with the blog posts, is that Strandh? I'd like to read them too. 18:21:43 Raed8: (lambda (x) (setf x 3)) <-- won't modify the variable you call the lambda with 18:21:55 clintm: which blog posts are you referring to now? If the ones kristof mention, no 18:22:09 you may be calling it even without a variable! 18:22:14 mathrick: The ones about a lisp operating system. 18:22:22 Raed8: (lambda (x) (setf (car x) 3)) <-- will modify the cons cell passed in 18:22:24 clintm: Robert Strandh is here often as beach, and I don't think he maintains a blog 18:22:24 nutjob, etc. 18:22:35 the nutjob guy is http://www.loper-os.org/ 18:22:43 ah! thanks. 18:23:11 mathrick: Anyway, even if ECL is not the implementation you want, you might want to talk to them to see what they've been up to and perhaps a lot of problems can be solved without either group reinventing the wheel 18:23:19 Raed8: but (funcall (lambda (x) (setf (car x) 3)) nil) is an error 18:23:37 Raed8: but if you modify the variable storing the reference, it doesn't modify what's passed in. <-- usually referred to as "binding", which makes it less ambiguous 18:23:40 ah, yes. I've read this blog cover to... erm, last post, as well. 18:23:55 clintm: It's a good read, if a bit nutty and disparaging to clojure 18:24:09 Raed8: which is why push can't be a function; it needs to be able to handle empty-lists as well 18:24:41 kristof: aye, though the list is on c-l.net, which at the moment has barely any lists at all, and certainly no archives (thank you, c-l.net redesign! Working mailing lists are so passé) 18:25:48 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.186.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:25:56 I noticed that. Bothersome. 18:25:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.179.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:58 about Emacs in CL, see http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 and http://tromey.com/blog/?p=751 18:26:01 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 18:26:10 dim: Yes, we covered it 18:26:19 I would like to see the rendering parts fixed, using maybe webkit 18:26:23 dim: Guy disappeared and mathrick convinced me that emacs isn't the ideal editor anyway 18:26:24 -!- normanri_ [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:26:33 so that you can have a image that align with more than one line 18:26:45 tromey is often active on #emacs 18:26:57 Hmm 18:26:57 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-179-13.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:13 Another rabbit hole, but I'm glad I found people who have blazed trails in the direction that interests me 18:27:21 I'm off. Thanks for the discussion, mathrick! 18:27:38 kristof: anytime! 18:27:42 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 mathrick: (my biggest interest is in {,operating-}system design, so expect to hear from me again soon) 18:28:21 -!- Guest76173 [~iwilcox@31.185.128.190] has quit [Changing host] 18:28:21 Guest76173 [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 18:28:29 -!- Guest76173 is now known as iwilcox 18:28:31 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:49 kristof: gladly 18:28:49 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:28:58 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:13 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:29:21 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:26 -!- Raed8 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is no way to serialize a symbol, such that it will deserialize to the same symbol in the same lisp image, right? 20:36:43 now that I think about it, it would be impossible, since the symbol may be GCed in the meantime, so nevermind 20:38:04 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:32 iirc, symbols are forever 20:40:40 prxq: (gensym) 20:42:10 ah, that 20:42:20 prxq: or unintern with no remaining references 20:42:26 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:14 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 well, if a symbol has been uninterned and no references remain, then how will it ever be known if that symbol that came from disk is new or not? What difference does it make? 20:43:45 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:45:05 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 20:45:11 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:45:35 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.22.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:49 touche 20:46:12 okay, so given that a reference remains, is it possible to serialize a symbol such that it will deserialize to the same symbol? 20:46:29 find-symbol? 20:46:35 save the symbol name and package 20:46:40 Shinmera: (gensym) 20:46:45 oh, right 20:46:48 hrm 20:46:52 if the symbol isn't in a package, not really 20:46:56 I'm pretty sure there is no portable way 20:47:08 the entire point of interning is to allow you to deserialize text to the same symbol 20:47:26 jasom: Why do you need gensyms though? 20:48:07 Shinmera: I don't use them at this point, but it's possible someone might use a gensym in an associative structure that I'm serializing 20:48:09 oxum [~oxum@122.164.213.1] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 I guess I could just check that the symbols are interned 20:48:35 if they're using gensyms as keys than they should be fully aware that those can't be deserialized 20:48:39 then* 20:49:01 How would you access the element outside of the context of the created gensym again anyway? 20:49:09 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 20:49:53 Bike: good point 20:50:00 just as the point of interning is repeatable reading of the same symbol, the point of uninterned symbols is repeated reads of the same text being different symbols 20:50:07 well, a point, at least 20:50:51 Bike: not really, as gensym tries to make unique names anyway... 20:51:16 The point of uninterned symbols is that they don't persist 20:51:24 but if you read "#:G14" twice you get two different symbols. 20:51:26 otherwise we'd use gentmp 20:51:55 *gentemp 20:53:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed 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22:03:59 sword [~user@c-24-21-33-225.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:07 <[6502]> crazy question: in (lambda (x) (lambda (x))) is it a feature that the two `x` refer to the same symbol or an unfortunate consequence of the implementation design? 22:04:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 er, what. the inner lambda shadows the outer lambda's parameter 22:05:17 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 22:05:20 [6502]: they are the same symbol, but two different bindings 22:05:26 <[6502]> bike: exactly: the inner x is different from the outer x, but they're the same symbol (e.g. sharing properties) 22:05:54 symbol properties are orthogonal to lexical bindings 22:06:06 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:16 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.50.5] has joined #lisp 22:06:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:07:25 <[6502]> using symbol properties in macro code must be hard... 22:07:55 conveniently, nobody uses symbol properties 22:07:55 [6502]: not that hard really, quite insane though. 22:08:26 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:40 i can not think of a single use for symbol properties that would not be better handled by a hash table (weak if neccessary) 22:09:01 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 Symbol properties are faster. :) 22:10:05 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@dyn-129-97-41-253.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:15 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 22:11:12 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 <[6502]> but isn't the inner x in (lambda (x) (lambda (x))), logically speaking, a different symbol from the outer one? 22:11:16 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:33 no, it's not. 22:11:47 <[6502]> segv-: not even logically speaking? 22:11:52 nope 22:11:55 it's a different binding, but, in the source code (which is the only place it exists) it's the same symbol 22:12:00 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:12:03 "x" is just a name, that's different from the binding. 22:12:28 if i say "That's a tall man" and then "That's a blue plant", i'm obviously talking about different things even though "That's" is the same text. 22:12:48 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:12:52 alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.124.106.188] has joined #lisp 22:13:04 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 nenorbot [~ronen@109.65.154.38] has joined #lisp 22:13:15 <[6502]> ok... so symbols is just text, without any semantic meaning 22:13:26 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:44 symbols are names 22:14:01 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:14:16 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:18 they are objects, and you should think of them that way 22:14:19 <[6502]> but at the global level they've a meaning attached 22:14:35 <[6502]> it's at the lexical level that they're just names 22:14:46 one of many reasons symbol properties are pretty crap 22:14:51 if by "meaning" you mean "a name" and "a package" then yes 22:15:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:15:15 Not sure why that makes symbol properties crap. 22:15:17 if it helps, you can think of symbol properties as just a giant associative array. 22:15:28 fistinggr8 [~fistinggr@200.79.253.35] has joined #lisp 22:15:48 <[6502]> oGMo: indeed one thing I think is "dirty" is that for example if you put (lambda (x) (* x x)) in a package you're also interning `x` (unless `x` is already in CL, that is... in which case the name of the parameter is from another package) 22:16:25 that's what makes symbols _nice_ 22:16:36 but you have to not think about them like variables in other languages 22:16:36 But does it actually matter what you interned in the package? 22:16:37 seangrove [~user@199-83-221-155.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:57 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:17:25 ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.228.195] has joined #lisp 22:17:32 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@157.106-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:20:57 k0001 [~k0001@host118.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:21:12 -!- adam789654123 [~user@c-68-37-85-13.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:37 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:42 <[6502]> is #lisp a white-only group? 22:22:15 refried_ [~refried_@lawn-143-215-120-189.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:24 excuse me? 22:22:32 is freenode a white-only network? 22:22:56 oh, it was this channel .. fistinggr8 spammed some racism forum 22:22:56 i see my text in different colours 22:23:00 <[6502]> Bike: for the first time in my life i was invited by someone to join a racist group while on IRC... i was wondering if it's the channel... 22:23:15 Oh, one of those spammers. Just ignore them, they'll get k-lined in a moment, i'm sure. 22:23:20 Guys... What the heck am I missing here? 22:23:22 Tired of niggers? Sick of their monkeyshines? We are too! Join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum At Chimpout, we are NOT white supremacists! I myself am a Mexican! Basically, if you are not a NIGGER and you hate NIGGERS, we welcome you with open arms! Join Chimpout Forum today! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 22:23:31 that, apparently 22:23:31 MANIFEST> (maphash 22:23:31 (lambda (k v) (list k v)) 22:23:31 (all-systems)) 22:23:31 Oh, I see. Yeah, they'll be gone in a sec. 22:23:34 NIL 22:23:37 MANIFEST> (all-systems) 22:23:40 # 22:23:43 ejbs: maphash returns nil. you call it for effect. 22:23:45 -fistinggr8:#lisp- Tired of niggers? Sick of their monkeyshines? We are too! Join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum At Chimpout, we are NOT white supremacists! I myself am a Mexican! Basically, if you are not a NIGGER and you hate NIGGERS, we welcome you with open arms! Join Chimpout Forum today! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 22:23:48 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 22:23:58 Bike: *sigh* thanks haha 22:23:59 milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-10-101.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:24:12 That's unexpected 22:24:18 -!- TheShrubber [~jonas@ip123021.directconnect.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:47 alexandria has hash-table-alist to do what you want, but you can write it yourself in a few lines, of course. 22:24:51 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.124.106.188] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:02 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:25 -!- Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has quit [Quit: Yanez] 22:25:36 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:41 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:13 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:28 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-nczsqnmcqwoovxkv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:23 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-pflckwkibxsppqvb] has joined #lisp 22:28:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:40 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 22:29:58 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:31:12 -!- milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-10-101.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:27 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:32:22 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 22:32:38 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 22:32:47 Bike: That's okay, I'll just use LOOP :) 22:33:00 well, one line, then 22:33:43 -!- kaygun__ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:34:21 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:16 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@37.26.147.242] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 22:38:15 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:39:31 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:39:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.179.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:39:58 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:07 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:40:26 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:31 cmm [~cmm@109.67.179.13] has joined #lisp 22:40:58 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:41:59 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:43:28 ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-190.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:11 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:46:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:25 -!- malbertife [~malbertif@host112-6-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:30 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:47:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:48:30 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:47 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:49:33 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@164.138.80.236] has quit [Quit: mc40] 22:49:54 akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:42 -!- ustunoz__ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:51:34 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:21 thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:45 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:13 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 22:54:22 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:35 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:39 -!- ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.228.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:58 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:57:08 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.179.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:32 -!- fistinggr8 [~fistinggr@200.79.253.35] has quit [K-Lined] 22:57:40 zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.209.134] has joined #lisp 22:58:07 cmm [~cmm@109.67.179.13] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 22:59:03 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:00:36 [6502]: what are being called 'bindings' here the spec usually calls variables -- I prefer the former term as well because it is easy to incorrectly conflate 'variable' with 'symbol' and you will be confused if you don't keep those ideas separate. 23:00:48 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:01:25 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:01:35 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:02:21 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:02:45 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:04:54 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:05:14 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:05:56 oxum [~oxum@122.164.223.69] has joined #lisp 23:05:58 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:06:18 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:06:24 Well, variables are bindings named by symbols. But there are other bindings. Places are bound. Some places may be unbound. Variables are just some kind of places. 23:06:45 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat109.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Quit: w/e. lab meeting ho!] 23:07:14 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:07:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:07:39 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:09:23 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:09:42 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:09:58 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:18 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:11:16 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:18 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:11:38 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:13:00 ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.255.103] has joined #lisp 23:13:34 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:13:53 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:15:25 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:15:45 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:17:16 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host118.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:17:22 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:17:41 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:17:51 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:18:07 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:42 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:19:57 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@109.65.154.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:01 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:20:52 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:21:10 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:23:11 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:23:28 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:24:13 fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 -!- fish2 [~srd@31.13.128.158] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:25:10 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@247-6.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:25:19 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.152] has joined #lisp 23:25:20 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 23:26:06 k0001 [~k0001@host118.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:26:57 <[6502]> sleeptime for me... thanks guys 23:30:20 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.50.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:30:36 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:31:14 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.50.5] has joined #lisp 23:31:25 -!- [6502] [4e0cf2da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.242.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:31:55 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:41 -!- ntabeaumo [~abeaumont@77.231.255.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:32:44 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 23:35:39 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 23:37:29 Good night! 23:37:36 -!- ejbs [~user@h77-53-86-68.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:15 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 23:43:50 -!- txv1 [~txv@0187800209.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:45:38 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.50.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:48:06 sellout- [~Adium@174-16-100-165.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:37 nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.41.73] has joined #lisp 23:50:25 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-222-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:51:01 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZ] 23:53:09 txv1 [~txv@0187800209.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 23:53:19 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.41.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:55 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:55:45 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.91.107] has joined #lisp 23:58:10 patojo [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:17 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]