00:04:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:33 -!- thelorax1231 [~nodebot@162-204-145-159.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:53 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:27 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 00:07:42 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:08:02 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p57B9B98E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:13:08 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:15:20 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:40 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.91.250] has joined #lisp 00:15:42 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:15:57 Hum. SLIME's indent doesn't seem to like `defmethod's inside `let's. 00:19:26 Manually positioning the docstring solves it. 00:20:43 -!- gzg [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:32 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.92.7] has joined #lisp 00:25:33 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:28:34 sohail [~sohail@108.175.227.63] has joined #lisp 00:28:34 -!- sohail [~sohail@108.175.227.63] has quit [Changing host] 00:28:34 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:32:08 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:34:00 -!- Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:07 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.91.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:39:22 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:44:08 pigoj [~pigoj@218.163.197.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:37 a 00:45:13 didi`: are you trying to make a method a closure? 00:46:50 Bike: Yes. 00:47:19 I could use a global variable, but I don't want to clutter the namespace. 00:47:31 you can't do that. 00:47:38 Awwww... 00:47:38 have a method be a closure, i mean. 00:47:40 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9FFD6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:58 Why do you hate fun? 00:50:06 Bike: Can't I do this ? 00:52:49 hm, i thought method bodies couldn't close over variables but i can't find it in the standard, maybe i'm wrong 00:53:20 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.75.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:44 -!- pigoj [~pigoj@218.163.197.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:59:03 Bike: Oh, OK. I'll try to think of a better way to deal if my problem. But I'll keep this dirty hack for a while. ;^) 00:59:26 it's due to mop weirdness. who knows 00:59:51 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 01:03:39 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:03:50 -!- klltkr[HOU] [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 01:09:53 nialo- [~yaaic@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:25 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 01:11:33 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:13:40 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:19:31 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has joined #lisp 01:22:11 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:22:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:15 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 01:25:10 Poenikatu [~poenikatu@89.241.77.255] has joined #lisp 01:25:10 -!- Poenikatu [~poenikatu@89.241.77.255] has quit [Changing host] 01:25:10 Poenikatu [~poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 01:26:27 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:23 nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:40 -!- Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:32:20 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:34 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 01:40:28 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:40:40 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:40 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:09 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 01:51:19 -!- Poenikatu [~poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:01:11 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:02:56 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-uxhxzxhuujiaswkf] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 vircures [~vircures@65.23.122.2.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:41 -!- jk121960 [~jk121960@108-89-22-112.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 02:12:49 ASau` [~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 I could also use a class-allocated slot, but this thing is not related to this class in any way. 02:16:30 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF901.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:16:49 nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:53 -!- Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:21:49 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 02:23:26 -!- cibs_ [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:23:51 cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has joined #lisp 02:29:16 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:31:26 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.37.217] has joined #lisp 02:34:10 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:55 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:40:12 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:45 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.101] has joined #lisp 02:46:38 anyone here by chance familiar with Quadrature Amplitude Modulation or Shift Keying? (long shot...) 02:48:41 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:49:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:44 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:30 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 02:52:25 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:27 -!- Pixel_Outlaw [~ryan@63-153-68-220.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:59:54 -!- hex-code [~hex-code@123.237.137.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03:49 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:05:02 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:08 p_adams [~p_adams@24-107-140-111.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:32 arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has joined #lisp 03:10:00 -!- thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:10:29 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:10:51 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 03:16:11 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 03:18:37 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 03:22:33 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:35 Oladon [~Oladon@c-98-245-40-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:27 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:57 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 03:25:12 So I'm trying to handle some Ajax calls in a scraper I'm working on, and so I'm trying to replace the Ajax-calling div with the contents of the call (this is all in STP using cxml-stp)... but I think I'm doing something wrong. I can't seem to get stp:replace-child to accept the new document (or document-element), even when I stp:detach it... any ideas? I think I'm doing something wrong, but I'm not sure what. 03:28:23 sohail [~sohail@108.175.227.63] has joined #lisp 03:28:23 -!- sohail [~sohail@108.175.227.63] has quit [Changing host] 03:28:23 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:33:28 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 03:38:53 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.37.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:39:39 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.37.217] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@24-212-142-77.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:05 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:43:22 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 03:45:52 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 03:46:33 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has joined #lisp 03:48:48 Oh, there's an stp:copy 03:49:33 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 03:50:53 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:54:14 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:54:15 -!- Ambit [~chatzilla@c-50-161-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:56:56 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:57:17 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:15 -!- p_adams [~p_adams@24-107-140-111.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 04:01:10 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 04:01:23 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:05:35 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:29 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@24-212-142-77.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:08:08 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:12:55 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:59 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:14:03 cherrypunk [~cherrypun@192.200.17.208] has joined #lisp 04:17:53 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-51-17.w109-223.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:18:04 Good morning everyone! 04:18:27 Morning beach 04:23:59 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has joined #lisp 04:25:08 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 04:27:08 -!- vircures [~vircures@65.23.122.2.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 04:27:31 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:29:26 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 04:29:33 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [] 04:31:20 -!- cherrypunk [~cherrypun@192.200.17.208] has left #lisp 04:31:31 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:44 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:45 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:17 -!- cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 04:35:34 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 04:36:10 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:59 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.37.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:39:25 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 04:39:38 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.37.217] has joined #lisp 04:40:55 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 04:41:14 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:10 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:45:07 hello all 04:46:28 Hi loke. 04:46:44 what's happening 04:47:00 It's pretty quiet here. 04:47:27 Yeah, I can tell 04:48:06 But that doesn't mean nobody is working. 04:50:53 loke: How is the web application coming along? 04:51:43 Slowly :-) 04:52:38 I'm working! 04:53:03 Oladon: Excellent! On what? 04:53:14 Trying to figure out silly Ajax things for a forum scraper 04:53:18 beach: I'm stuck with some javascript-related issues, and JS is so bloody boring that I've lost steam... 04:53:20 It's being quite frustrating. 04:53:22 Heh 04:53:27 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-166-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:53:50 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-140-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:53:59 *beach* finds web programming very frustrating. 04:54:11 Why? 04:54:38 It can be 04:54:42 loke: Perhaps it would give you an injection if you did it with Parenscript instead? 04:54:59 I fear I'm going to end up coding a stupid hard-coded method for getting this data because of the way this forum does paging 04:55:56 Zhivago: I don't know. Probably just ignorance. I am having a hard time with the multiple address spaces. 04:56:07 This page is psychic. 04:56:29 It's got an Ajax call that doesn't differ in any way from another one, yet somehow returns the set of posts requested. :P 04:57:09 beach: If you do web development, I'd suggest using angularjs. 04:57:41 Then it's just a matter of exposing the data interfaces via a CL web sever, and sticking views on top in js land. 04:57:53 beach: Not really. The problem isn't with JS, the language but rather the way Web browsers work. 04:58:19 It's fucking insanity. 20 years ago, we had stable, flexible UI frameworks that allowed you to do anything we needed. 04:58:19 And you can bundle up the whole interface into a single page, which would make it reasonably easy to generate. 04:58:39 Today, it's all web-based, and the UI frameworks can't do what we did using, say, Motif back then 04:58:48 Zhivago: I am not doing any web development at the moment, but I'll remember your advice for the day I need it. I'll also give the hint to my nephew who seems to do more web development. 04:58:50 Which stable, flexible UI framework from 20 years ago do you have in mind? :) 04:58:51 that people call that PROGRESS? Fuck them. 04:59:03 I sense the influence of GOD here. 04:59:07 loke: Oh, that is harder to fix, yeah. 04:59:22 Ah. The horror story that was Motif. :) I remember that. 04:59:41 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:59:45 Zhivago: horror? Com,pared to things that was available back then, it was pretty awesome 05:00:01 And by golly were we happy to get away from motif. :) 05:00:08 And it'st ill a hell of a lot more flexible than HTML5 05:00:16 Zhivago: what's your problemw ith Motif? 05:00:43 I've blacked most of that out, but it was pretty hideous to look at, awkward to use, and had fairly horrible libraries. 05:01:07 If you're pining for motif, you might want to try developing a new motif application and see if it matches your recollection. 05:01:17 Zhivago: well, it _was_ pure C. So obviously the API's are more painful then. 05:01:31 And horribly bloated, although that matters less these days. 05:01:39 And no i18n support. 05:01:48 It makes me cringe even to consider it. 05:02:08 Zhivago: That's the thing. The stuff you compare it with (GTK? QT?) are a lot more bloated than Motif. You're comparing apples with oranges 05:02:13 Personally, my feeling is that we've taken massive steps forward, and that what gives power is not flexibility, but limitations. 05:02:26 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:43 Zhivago: I'd agree with you. But the limitations imposed by HTML5 ar ejust ridiculous 05:03:00 Perhaps -- can you be more specific? 05:03:25 Four generations of CSS, and it's still not possible to create two panels side-by-side that resizes based on constratins 05:03:36 ggole [~ggole@58-7-111-6.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:04:02 Ah, columns. :) 05:04:08 Or, say, be able to get notified when the contact of an editable box is changed. 05:04:18 (which happens to be what mains me now) 05:04:21 "pains" 05:04:29 You can do that, I believe. 05:04:37 fourOfTwelve [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has joined #lisp 05:04:42 I think that you can do most of those things if you don't support IE. :) 05:04:43 Zhivago: You can't. There are ways to fake it, somewhat, but it's not stable 05:04:56 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:06:18 In my case, I have a DIV that is contentediable, and I need to validate the text as it's being entered. Since no onchange event exists (well, it exists, but it's not getting fired always) you need to create event handles for things like keyUp. But then that won't work if someone pastes text with the mouse. 05:06:31 So you need to add an event handler for mouse clicks 05:06:47 but then that doesn't work if content is changed programmatically... so you deal with that... 05:06:48 *Oladon* grumbles about Ajax and sessions and drakma not playing nicely 05:07:54 loke: angularjs uses data watchers which would probably avoid all of those issues. 05:07:59 But then, you want to know _what_ changed, and you realise you can't. So you need to keep a copy of the previous content and compare. On. Every. Keypress. And. Mouse. Click. And this is a verylarge document 05:08:01 -!- entitativity [~entity@c-24-6-95-92.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:08:35 Zhivago: These are limitations in the DOM and HTML spec. No library in the world can fix it. They fake it. 05:08:38 Probably all you really want is to see if it has updated every 0.1 seconds or so. 05:08:48 In which case, you can ... just do that. 05:08:57 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 05:08:58 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:15 Zhivago: Right, so I copy a 2 MB document structure every 0.1 seconds and compare the content. CPU usage shoots up and makes the page sluggish 05:09:32 Why are you copying it? 05:09:47 alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:10:21 There are reasons why sites like Google Docs simply implement a completely new editor framework. They don't use the events or comtenteditable etc... They fake it all. 05:10:35 Zhivago: you need to compare against somethign to be able to see if it changed. 05:11:09 And remember, with contenteditable=true, you don't edit text. You edit the DOM structure 05:11:12 Well, you can do that with a checksum, but if you're really having 2 meg edit boxes ... 05:11:19 loke: Wow, thanks for that description of what the problem is. 05:11:45 Not boxes. It's DIV's with contenteditable=true 05:12:31 But clearly, I need to go the Google Docs route. But... That makes me having to implement everything from scratch, down to the cursor (look at other sites, they fake a cursor using a timer) 05:12:56 -!- francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:13:01 Well, to at least revisit the basic design considerations. :) 05:13:39 loke: Could all that be turned into a reusable framework so that others don't have to go through the same problems? 05:13:40 Well, yeah. I need to go back to square 0 on this 05:13:56 beach: I've been thinking of it. But I need a good solution first. 05:13:58 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:05 Sure. 05:14:11 Why are you using editable dom, btw? 05:14:20 -!- fourOfTwelve [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 05:14:34 Zhivago: Because it's either that, or INPUT boxes. INPUT boxes are not stylable, and limited to plain text 05:14:54 fourOfTwelve [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has joined #lisp 05:16:08 -!- fourOfTwelve [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:10 fourOfTwelve [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has joined #lisp 05:18:32 Anyway. Enought ranting. I need to go for some lunch 05:19:38 Bon appétit! 05:21:19 STilda [bca2a71a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.167.26] has joined #lisp 05:22:45 entitativity [~entity@c-24-6-95-92.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:59 -!- |JRG| [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-252-27.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 05:25:25 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 05:28:43 blahh 05:28:54 even using cookies I can't get this page to do right 05:29:07 with drakma, that is 05:34:16 loke: happy lunch 05:36:05 Oladon: do you have a question or did you just want to let off some steam? 05:36:51 H4ns: The last bit was just letting off steam. There was much of that going on, so I figured I'd contribute mine. 05:36:54 More steam was needed. 05:36:59 Coders are, after all, steam-powered. 05:37:42 coders are thought powered 05:39:12 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:39:23 Coffee is a kind of steam, I guess. 05:39:52 Speaking of which, I recommend the Turkish approach to the problem. 05:40:13 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:40:32 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.37.217] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 05:45:23 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:45:28 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54:36 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:58:52 -!- STilda [bca2a71a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.167.26] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:58:57 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-140-95.netcologne.de] has quit 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12:15:47 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-37-0.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:16:03 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-uxhxzxhuujiaswkf] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:18:34 Are there any standard symbol macros? 12:19:27 Nope. 12:19:41 pjb: I thought so, but wasn't sure. 12:19:56 thanks. 12:20:42 Why the question? 12:21:28 Oh, silly reason. I am writing the documentation for Climacs CL mode (which doesn't exist yet) and I needed to decide on some example colors to use for syntax highlighting. 12:21:45 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:23:44 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:42 It could be a variant on lexical variables. 12:25:07 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.125.52] has joined #lisp 12:25:44 Yeah, well, we'll see. Currently I have 4 hue families: lexical, global cl, global current package, global other packages. 12:25:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:26:38 Within a family I use very dark for functions and variables, dark for macros and symbol macros, and the rest remains to be decided. 12:27:06 It is not set in stone, but I want to see whether it can be workable. 12:27:52 Either way, it will be configurable and customizable of course. 12:27:56 This is CL after all. 12:29:10 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:02 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.116] has joined #lisp 12:33:47 Oh, here is an idea. I initially thought I didn't want to modify the font, because after all that's the choice of the user, but what I could do is to boldify the glyphs of whatever font the user has chosen, as a means for highlighting some characters. 12:35:02 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-akyogjmdqpcowspl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:35:04 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:35 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:37 It could be used for special operators for instance. 12:37:56 oh nice, Sid has .debs for the latest SBCL 12:39:44 beach: do you have a screenshot to show how the "families" look in practice? 12:40:27 beach: also bold / italic / underline are fair game, they still stay within the same font logically 12:41:01 plus, are you doing it in a way similar to GNU Emacs's faces? 12:41:04 mathrick: No screen shot, but artificially created figures in the documentation. 12:41:18 mathrick: I have no idea how GNU Emacs does it. 12:42:46 beach: oh, it uses a concept called faces, which is a set of text attributes (font, weight, colour, bg, and more), with as few or as many set as desired, and with inheritance from base faces 12:43:03 so for example, you have a `default' face, which is well, the default 12:43:03 mathrick: One probably does not want to alter the size of a character, so that the indentation looks correct without having to indent at the pixel level. 12:43:14 -!- zfx [~zfx@ec2-176-34-198-128.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:29 then you can have a `highlight' face, which inherits from default, but sets +bold 12:43:56 and you could have a `defun' face, which highlight + red fg colour 12:43:56 Yeah, well, I suppose there are not that many ways of doing it. 12:44:15 Lightspeed Pascal used to boldify the keywords. It's nice. You can also use italic, IIRC LispMachines used italic too. 12:44:38 But I worry that it might change the width of the characters then. 12:44:42 pjb: bolding keywords has the downside of drawing eye to the parts of the code which are *not* specific to your problem 12:45:21 echo-area [~user@123.120.241.1] has joined #lisp 12:45:31 beach: some languages can take proportional fonts easily. Pascal is like that. If you indent it, lisp would work in proportional font too. 12:45:50 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:45:56 mathrick: this is a good point. Current font locking in emacs too :-) 12:46:07 We could specify a color per package. 12:46:17 pjb: Yes, I know and that would be very nice. But I am not up to dealing with indentation at the pixel level right now. 12:46:19 Maybe some day. 12:46:24 beach: if we assume a sane text rendering library (which we should, and there's no real reason not to use Pango / Uniscribe / CoreText), we could have a constraint saying "not wider than this" 12:46:33 for character cells 12:47:18 font locking is useful to detect syntax and semantic errors. It's not so much to put in relief "importants" part of a program. (What's important? Every part!) 12:47:33 thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:39 beach: another issue which /will/ come up is what GNU Emacs calls overlays / text properties, and XEmacs calls extents 12:48:13 ie. ways to lay presentation over a piece of text, either as a part of that text, or specifically not as a part of it 12:48:55 hopefully the indirect buffer representation will be flexible enough to support it, but it needs figuring out and perhaps an easier API to use too 12:49:17 (again, not trying to say you need to figure it out right now, just mentioning issues that will come up for sure) 12:49:25 Yes, I know. 12:49:39 perhaps a FIXME in the section describing the fontlocking for CL you're doing right now 12:49:59 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:50:25 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:50:27 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50c3b.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:50:40 and pjb is right, indentation smarter than just "fixed width character cells" is necessary at some point 12:50:41 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:47 mathrick: Right now, I am thinking that whatever you see in the new chapter of the documentation will be done without involving the buffer itself. Only the syntax analyzer. 12:51:26 Yeas, I know, I know. It would be so nice to use a proportional font and still have the indentation come out right. 12:53:42 beach: aye, though font-locking already touches on the issue of overlays/text properties, since you have to make it work somehow. I dunno how much you're familiar with GNU Emacs's overlays, but they're crucial to very many things, so if you don't know them, we can go over what they do at some point 12:55:13 mathrick: OK, but later. The way I prefer to work is to come up with a solution myself first, and only later see what others did. Frequently, my solution turns out to be better. I am afraid that if I look at other people's solutions first, I won't be able to come up with something better. 12:55:25 right 12:55:54 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:56:13 mathrick: ... and if my solution is NOT better, I will have understood why the problem is hard, and why it was done the way they did it. Either way I win. 12:56:26 beach: actually, this is not a bad idea (re: not involving the buffer). Things like fontlocking could also be split into representation and view, so you could mark a piece of the code as "keyword" for example, but leave it to the view as to how to interpret that. So I could have a buffer in two views with the same syntax, but different colour schemes 12:56:47 absolutely 12:57:15 mathrick: And most of the time, the syntax analyzer can figure out that it's a "keyword". 12:58:03 ..., I mean that's what the compiler does after all. 12:58:09 beach: aye, but that's actually a higher level than the syntax analyser. It doesn't have to be a formal correspondence to a grammar; many modes mark pieces of the buffer temporarily (incremental search for example) 12:58:23 so there'd be syntax  font locking  view  actual pixels 12:58:45 But those marks should definitely not be in the buffer. 12:59:02 -!- samskull` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:04 Because what is being done in one view should not reflect how another view is displayed. 12:59:44 beach: font locking would be tied to the buffer, everything above it would not 13:00:02 if you want to mark something only for a single view, do it at the view level 13:00:13 mathrick: and right now I am thinking that I can't think of anything that should be part of the buffer. 13:00:33 if you want to mark some part of the buffer semantically, do it for the buffer and let the views interpret it 13:00:58 And what kind of information would that be? 13:01:15 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sgqsfhowaktofukg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:01:32 ... I mean, this is already done, for instance in TeX mode. 13:01:43 where you say \emph{...} and \texttt{...}. 13:02:25 syntax-derived font-locking is one thing. You could have multiple views (including say one text, one for codeblocks-kinda view, or TeX preview as you say), and the font-locking of some sort is there for all views. A defun is a defun in codeblocks too. But it will be shown differently 13:02:55 -!- loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:7577:38a0:963c:68a6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:19 loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:3c1e:3d47:9f33:5480] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 M-x Isearch In All Buffers is another possibility, where you're marking matches everywhere, and they will be there, even if shown differently for TeX code and rendered preview 13:03:34 mathrick: I am asking what kind of situation one might have where the language of the buffer is not known to the syntax analyzer, but it is still required to alter the way some characters are shown. 13:03:44 see above :) 13:03:54 I still don't see it. 13:04:02 I think that's part of the view, not the buffer. 13:04:38 It is DEFINITELY part of the view because the selected items where chosen by the user, and not by the intrinsic contents of the buffer. 13:04:44 Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan245170.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:10 beach: okay, I'm trying to locate a particular phrase in my TeX document to see if it renders correctly. So I do Isearch In All Buffers. Now all matches should point to the same parts of the buffer, but be presented independently in each view 13:05:48 Yes. 13:05:49 beach: if it's *only* at the view level, there will be no way to make a correspondence between \emph{foo} and foo in the preview 13:06:03 I still see no reason to attach any display information to the buffer itself. 13:06:05 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:41 I guess I don't understand your example fully. 13:07:15 hmm, lemme see if I can whip up a mockup quickly 13:08:47 TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:16 beach: gimme 5 minutes or so 13:09:20 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:21 Sure. 13:10:42 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:11:07 -!- sc00fy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11:42 mathrick: Actually, I think it would be easier to understand if you gave a concrete example, rather than "particular phrase", "renders correctly", "same parts of the buffer", and "presented independently" 13:12:38 beach: yes, just trying to put it in a mockup to make it clear how that could be a normal part of a workflow 13:12:39 I.e.: What phrase? How should it render? What parts? How are they presented? 13:13:04 beach: alright, let's try it 13:13:53 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:07 beach: working on a TeX document, and I have a tricky macro which I wrote myself. Let's pretend \emph{foo} is the tricky code I don't know if will render properly 13:14:21 Got it so far :) 13:14:28 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:14:59 er, emph is the macro and \emph{foo} is a use of it? 13:15:13 beach: ye 13:15:13 s 13:15:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:21 or you want to know whether EVERY use of it is rendered correctly? 13:15:50 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:15:56 so I have my work view, document.tex, then I have *TeX preview: document*, then I have a third view, *TeX Lint: document*, which is a using a lint checking for errors in processing any document. All three refer to the same buffer for their text 13:15:57 or is there just one instance of the \emph{foo} in the document? 13:16:16 beach: there are multiple, but there's both foo and \emph{foo} in it 13:16:29 OK. 13:16:30 is the above setup clear for you though? 13:16:38 wait a minute. 13:16:41 Reading.... 13:17:06 OK, I think I got it. 13:17:23 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:12 beach: obviously the preview will be an indirect buffer tying the output of pdflatex to the document text, whereas the lint will be another indirect buffer tying the output of lint to the same text. The point is, they all start from the same buffer, which is the content of document.tex 13:18:32 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:35 Sounds right. 13:18:38 now I want to see if my macro actually works correctly 13:18:54 so I do C-i \emph{foo} in document.tex 13:19:02 OK. 13:19:55 it should propagate to the preview, which will highlight the matching rendered instance of *foo*, as well as the lint buffer, which will highlight the lint output relevant to that use of \emph, if any 13:20:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:20:17 Sure, that sounds quite useful. 13:20:31 But I don't think that should be done by modifying the buffer contents. 13:21:11 -!- thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has left #lisp 13:21:12 beach: not modifying, but attaching extra info on top that is still a part of the buffer visible to all its consumers (as opposed to a view-private additition) 13:21:18 *addition 13:21:42 I definitely think that should be part of a (shared) syntax analyzer. 13:21:46 it's not really much different from syntax, which is also shared between a buffer's views 13:21:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:22:14 thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:40 beach: the thing is it's a more general mechanism, because searching for occurrences of a phrase is in no way "syntax". So syntax and font-locking should be one /form/ of that shared info, not the other way around 13:22:46 Either way, those views must be aware of each other. 13:22:49 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 not necessarily, if they know how to interpret an instance of SEARCH-MATCH for instance 13:23:50 Yes, I mean, 13:24:02 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has joined #lisp 13:24:05 there must be a common way of marking things. 13:24:09 yeah 13:24:25 and syntax analysis will be using that common way 13:24:27 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gstytcogpxhoylau] has joined #lisp 13:24:30 Sure. 13:24:46 OK, I understand your example now, and I will keep it in mind. 13:25:30 beach: and you might want to font-lock syntaxless buffers too. If a buffer is in Fundamental mode, you might still have a minor mode which highlights all occurrences of your email address, regardless of what major mode it has 13:25:31 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:39 there are plenty of modes like that for GNU Emacs today 13:25:57 Yes, of course. 13:26:13 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 13:26:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:26:17 so the parsers and syntax layer will be producing those common markings, but not only syntax, others can too 13:26:26 Notice though that it does that by recognizing the syntax of an email address. 13:26:31 So it is not really syntaxless. 13:26:57 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:08 But yeah, I think I have a good grasp of the issues now. 13:27:15 beach: yes, but it can't just plug into the CL parser by saying "oh and btw, any time you see mathrick@mathrick.org, highlight it", and then do the same for every other language 13:28:05 mathrick: No not "highlight it" but "recognize it as an email address and do whatever the view wants with such a thing" should be possible. 13:28:05 another example of such a shared object that actually is syntaxless is a bookmark / breakpoint 13:28:26 which is inserted at a specific line / character position 13:29:04 Yes, I think I understand the issue. 13:29:07 beach: yeah, of course, that's what I meant. There's still no feasible way to plug into an arbitrary parser's productions though, so it has to work aside from any language parser in effect 13:29:10 cool :) 13:29:44 OK, time to go spend some time with my (admittedly small) family. 13:29:45 sorry it was so long-winded. I guess transferring experience is just hard 13:29:50 have fun! 13:29:55 Thanks. 13:32:21 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:00 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:37:38 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:40:30 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:39 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:41:44 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@94.159.197.246] has joined #lisp 13:43:11 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gstytcogpxhoylau] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:45:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-etx-mapped-0028.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:46:41 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 13:47:02 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:47:35 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan245170.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:35 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:47:56 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:21 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-226-63-233.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:30 teggi [~teggi@123.20.102.167] has joined #lisp 13:53:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:53:47 sc00fy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:55:15 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:56:02 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-122-143.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:58:50 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:58:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:28 loic__ [~loic@29.17.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:38 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:28 -!- LoicLisp [~loic@209.15.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:53 anyone know/use a good pattern matching library? ala Erlang would be nice 14:04:06 vircures [~vircures@65.23.122.2.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:05:43 AeroNotix: optima 14:05:49 fe[nl]ix: was just looking at this 14:05:51 looks awesome 14:06:47 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 awww yiss 14:07:58 this is really good 14:09:28 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:05 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:14:41 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 14:14:59 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-btqhujyzyziproyr] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@94.159.197.246] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 14:16:34 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-164-167.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:17:38 Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan245170.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:45 Where the hell is Xach? 14:19:05 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:19:05 Is he alright? 14:19:40 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 14:20:08 Ambit [~chatzilla@c-50-161-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:12 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:08 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 he just tweeted something so he's probably not dead 14:22:11 -!- cpape``` [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:25 He recursively tried to compute his own awesomeness and blew his stack 14:22:27 rip 14:23:29 lol 14:23:58 Well, that sounds comforting. 14:24:03 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:24:14 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:29 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:25:21 (incf AeroNotix) 14:26:04 is that the equiv of rep++ 14:26:16 (incf AeroNotix) 14:26:46 *AeroNotix* bows 14:26:46 Somebody probably need to write bot that will implement REPL functionality for IRC. 14:26:48 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 14:28:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-189.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:28:55 on that note, we need a trylisp to bring more people to CL 14:30:44 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:00 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:35:02 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@46-116-215-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:37:00 hitecnologys: it's already happened 14:37:38 hitecnologys: it was used almost entirely to demonstrate the failings of putting a REPL on IRC 14:37:48 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-248-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:08 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 dlowe: sounds cool. 14:39:43 Not on IRC, on #lisp. 14:39:48 It would be perfectly ok on #lispbot 14:39:54 or #repl 14:40:28 But indeed somebody worked on it. What happened of it? Why is it not running in #repl ? 14:40:53 hard to secure and of dubious utility 14:41:19 i assumed it was security, that's also why they took down the clang demo 14:41:32 i still feel its absence :c 14:41:57 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:20 anyways, why not run it in a vagrant vm and when some asshole takes it down bring it up again 14:42:31 Well that's not a reason, there's fsbot and rubybot. 14:42:50 Indeed. 14:44:09 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:44:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-189.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:44:43 as is so often the case, it may be the lack of someone willing to do that. 14:44:45 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 14:44:59 s/willing/having time/ 14:45:04 maybe eudoxia will run such a service 14:45:06 :-) 14:45:17 fisxoj [~fisxoj@dyn-129-97-41-230.dynamic.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:45:36 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-226-63-233.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Harag] 14:45:55 i could give it a go when i have some free time 14:46:25 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 I have even cooler idea: online live multi-user Lisp IDE with compiler and stuff on the web. 14:47:45 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@46-116-215-203.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 14:48:14 -!- sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:27 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has joined #lisp 14:48:29 The point is to have lots of people editing the same file. 14:48:53 That would replace lisppaste advantageously. 14:49:11 pjb, I have an eval-bot but not a computer to run it 24/7: https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot 14:49:20 And that also sounds funny. 14:49:31 -!- sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:35 dtw: thanks. I'll install it on my server. How secure is it? 14:49:45 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 pjb, only safe features work. Many are disabled and some have been replaced with safer ones. It's been tried by you, stassats, Nikodemus Siivola, among few other people. 14:51:10 Good :-) 14:52:13 loke___ [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:4de7:db6c:3c2f:107d] has joined #lisp 14:52:20 good evening 14:53:35 Hello loke. 14:57:08 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 harish [~harish@175.156.197.71] has joined #lisp 15:02:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:03:25 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:04:46 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:02 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:25 loke`` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:9cce:9a50:e297:39e9] has joined #lisp 15:06:15 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-37-0.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:05 -!- loke___ [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:4de7:db6c:3c2f:107d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:11 -!- loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:3c1e:3d47:9f33:5480] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:25 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.101] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 15:10:03 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-251.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:11:40 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:16:42 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-140-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:18 -!- vircures [~vircures@65.23.122.2.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 15:18:10 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:05 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 Man, Haskell makes me feel dumb all the time. 15:19:35 Is there a way to say that a defmethod should take an object of a particular type or nil. 15:19:35 Programming makes me feel dumb all the time 15:21:01 (or type null) 15:21:02 sellout-: in what way? 15:21:24 Shinmera: Just discovering new things that obviate piles of code. 15:21:30 I mean, I feel dumb in a good way. 15:21:35 Whatever that means. 15:22:02 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:18 like you were dumb in the past, but are now an enlightened being 15:22:20 Yeah. 15:22:51 dlowe, that's invalid I think? 15:22:56 dlowe: I think _thats_ how I felt in the past, but now I know there are always more ways to feel dumb on the horizon ;) 15:23:31 abunchofdollarsi: Youd have to write two defmethods, one for the non-nil, one for the nil. 15:23:31 As a type specializer at any rate. 15:23:40 Yes that's what I did. 15:23:41 Okay. 15:23:57 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 15:24:17 abunchofdollarsi: And just be happy that thats less common than having to check every parameter for null pointers in some other languages ;) 15:24:41 Better yet I can just write a macro. 15:25:31 Is there anyone from Berlin? 15:26:13 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.123] has joined #lisp 15:26:46 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:14 sellout-: That's good to hear for me though, puts Haskell further up the list of languages to learn for me. 15:27:19 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 15:27:25 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.123] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:49 Shinmera: Definitely a lot of Haskell pollination in the CL world, too, these days. 15:28:05 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.123] has joined #lisp 15:28:09 p_nathan1 [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 -!- abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:54 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:29:30 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-37-0.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:29:39 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:53 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:53 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:30:16 -!- p_nathan2 [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:16 sellout-: I oscillate between fascination and disgust wrt Haskell. 15:30:25 Same here 15:30:36 the pure stuff is amazing-- so clean and succinct 15:30:40 anything impure is a PITA 15:30:40 jking: And you dont with CL? 15:31:01 sellout-: Nope. Lisp has been pretty straight forward. 15:31:23 I dont think I end up doing anything impure with Haskell, really. Just compilers and the like. 15:31:27 To me, Lisp is either beautiful or looks like some kind of mad wizard spell, depending on how it's written. 15:31:41 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:32:25 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:34:58 lisp looks like the michelin man doing advanced yoga 15:35:38 Haskell looks like the quixotic ramblings of a schizophrenic 15:35:46 lol 15:35:57 suddenly javascript 15:36:18 Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:02 -!- ski_ is now known as ski 15:37:40 I'm not even sure if I can come up with a good analogy for JS. 15:37:53 -!- kaygun [~kaygun@193.255.85.113] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:37:58 "Seive made of feces which leaks piss" 15:38:01 There are also C# and Java. 15:38:06 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 15:38:21 mind the topic! 15:39:11 kaygun [~kaygun@193.255.85.113] has joined #lisp 15:40:34 Yeah, sorry, my initial comment was meant for another channel  didnt mean to drive everyone off-topic. 15:45:36 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.102.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:15 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan245170.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:14 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.116] has left #lisp 15:47:27 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.116] has joined #lisp 15:49:09 Shinmera: haskell is a good language to know at some point, but I don't feel that it's a very good language to work in 15:49:12 jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:49:28 Right. 15:49:37 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has joined #lisp 15:51:22 Shinmera: also Prolog, if by chance you don't know that yet. Takes an afternoon to pick up, and is fantastically embeddable (in fact, traditional to embed in lispy object stores of various sorts) 15:51:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:52:45 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:23 I've encountered it in On Lisp 15:55:00 SWI Prolog is a good, easy to use ISO Prolog implementation. It has a lot of pieces which you don't need or want to understand related to writing full-fledged GUI apps in Prolog (a bad idea), but you can just ignore that part and concentrate on what it's good for 15:55:29 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 15:55:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:01 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 15:56:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:56:23 Shinmera: it's really easy to pick up, but an eye-opener too. I started learning Prolog the day before I had to turn in a uni project in prolog, and did fine :) 15:56:29 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 15:56:51 how does it feel to be lisp-enlightened? is it a sudden or gradual process? 15:57:19 I didn't really understand the usefulness of Prolog when I read through On Lisp, but I'll definitely take a closer look again now. 15:57:30 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:57:41 -!- cory786 [~cory@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:42 w|t: What does "enlightened" refer to? 15:57:50 w|t: gradual, but at a few points, things click and you suddenly get it more 15:58:08 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:58:13 cory786 [~cory@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:17 Shinmera, to get to the stage where it all suddenly comes to you 15:58:23 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.188.20] has joined #lisp 15:58:24 i see. thanks, mathrick. 15:58:27 more like ignorance is bliss, after grokking lisp macros every other language becomes, "damn, wish this had CL style macros" 15:58:53 pjb2 [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:28 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-37-0.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:34 yeah 15:59:49 w|t: For me it comes in bursts then. Though that's normal for any problem solving process, sometimes there's suddenly a really nice solution where there were question marks before. Lisp just makes these really nice solutions appear more often. 16:00:01 -!- pjb2 is now known as claire 16:00:38 -!- claire [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has left #lisp 16:04:41 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:04:57 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:08 frito [user@nat/ibm/x-sxugcgtpjqwbydtz] has joined #lisp 16:09:32 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:10:13 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:07 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.188.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:11:17 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 16:13:00 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:06 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:13:20 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 16:13:40 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:57 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:14:49 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:15:06 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:30 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:59 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 16:20:56 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:35 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has joined #lisp 16:23:05 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: conversation vanished because experience stopped] 16:24:28 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:29:53 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.188.20] has joined #lisp 16:31:34 -!- fmu____ [uid89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lglujkyxmskawaeo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:32:20 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 16:34:26 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:35:16 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:31 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmtzxpukmbsedags] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:39:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:46:00 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 16:46:46 TDog [~chatzilla@174-30-146-228.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:53 -!- jking is now known as j_king 16:48:13 hi 16:48:13 Asgeir, memo from bhyde: sorry, that meant http://j.mp/ben-share 16:48:24 wow :D 16:53:43 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:42 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 16:56:00 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[~oleo@xdsl-87-78-76-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:40 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 17:15:27 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:34 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:17:37 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-sgdllnlgtihjldls] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:17:55 samskull` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:19 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:36 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:27:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:28:40 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:59 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:31:51 Using a before/after method if the object is of type but not of type ? 17:32:15 Unexpected character: #\? 17:32:36 Sorry, I can't parse a question there. 17:32:45 I will rephrase. 17:32:54 I have a base class and a derived class. 17:33:41 I have a method defined to dispatch on the base class as a parameter and one doing the same with the derived class as a parameter. 17:33:51 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:34:33 When it invokes the method taking the base class parameter I want to invoke a corresponding before method, but when it invokes the derived class method, I don't want that to happen. 17:34:37 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-78-47-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:34:59 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:00 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-195-14-207-26.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:19 abunchofdollarsi: you can not do that; i would suggest either changing your hierarchy into 3 classes (so your base class becomes a sister of your current derived class and only the actually common functionality lives in the parent class of both) 17:36:21 abunchofdollarsi: You can either check the exact class at the beginning of the before method, or play with method combinations. 17:36:21 I don't think that's possible. 17:36:23 this breaks polymorphism ; I would take a look again on my class hierarchy 17:36:31 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:38 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 17:36:47 abunchofdollarsi: But, what others said  it seems like you actually want a different hierarchy. 17:36:50 -!- gko_ [gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:36:55 Yes, I will rework. 17:37:08 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:37:17 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 17:37:31 -!- unixjazz [~fido@061244094200.ctinets.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:37:40 but, if you actually wanted to do that (defmethod foo :before ((obect (eql (find-class 'parent-class)))) ...) might work 17:38:02 hm, no, sorry, that won't work at all. 17:38:13 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-btqhujyzyziproyr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:38:23 ASau [~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:10 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:24 the solution is to implement himself some dispatch, but that's considered bad style. 17:39:25 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:46 nilsi_ [~nilsi@49.84.191.127] has joined #lisp 17:40:25 ASau [~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:49 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:58 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 17:41:09 -!- abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 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19:18:50 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-164-167.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:51 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:19:02 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:10 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 19:20:23 is it me, or has sbcl's startup and load times gotten a lot faster in recent versions? 19:22:30 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-213-80-221-2-dyn-srv.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 19:23:35 how recent? i haven't really noticed, but i tend to dump a base image anyway 19:24:18 1.1.12 doesn't seem particularly faster than i recall 19:24:47 1.1 vs. 0.9ish 19:26:08 should be easy to test, but .. that's pretty old heh 19:26:25 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:29:21 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:47 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:29:57 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:36 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 19:35:48 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:52 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:58 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:25 duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 19:37:37 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:05 -!- duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:14 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 19:39:19 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:39:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@153-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:39:24 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:30 fiveop [~fiveop@p54AF47FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:48 jasom: Thats 7 years worth of improvements ;) 19:41:21 I have a question regarding loops: Can I use "when ... collect ..." constructs in sequence? (Like " ... when (symbolp a) collect a when (listp a) collect (car a) ... ") 19:42:22 fiveop: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/ 19:42:46 fiveop: i'd say yes. 19:42:49 <_death> fiveop: yes 19:42:53 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 -!- _death is now known as adeht 19:44:15 thanks 19:44:27 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:44:46 mathrick: you want to say, 'Don't Loop, Iterate'? :) 19:45:22 Joreji [~thomas@153-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:30 fiveop: yes 19:45:34 it's much better 19:45:41 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-111-6.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:46:51 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-213-80-221-2-dyn-srv.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49:17 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 19:52:03 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:52:18 How does iterate compare to loop in terms of code efficiency? 19:52:27 Depends on what you're doing 19:52:33 As in, how efficient the code it is that it produces. 19:52:39 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:42 *dim* waves to the room ;-) 19:53:49 Shinmera: it is a macro. 19:54:20 i doubt the code is particularly more or less efficient... 19:55:12 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:39 sohail [~sohail@108.175.227.63] has joined #lisp 19:55:46 -!- sohail [~sohail@108.175.227.63] has quit [Changing host] 19:55:46 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 isn't loop's implementation implementation-dependant ? 19:57:05 sure, but we can make broad strokes. especially since multiple implementations use code descendent from xerox 19:57:39 oh. learnt something, thanks :D 19:57:53 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: good evening people] 20:01:13 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB3602.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:21 In my case, I wanted to use it in a macro (implementation, not the resulting form), thus performance doesn't really matter :) 20:04:49 -!- eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:05:05 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:21 -!- krrrcks [~dbr@krrrcks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:06:42 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:07:17 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.123] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:07:43 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.51] has joined #lisp 20:12:41 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:12:50 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:13:23 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:17:52 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB3602.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:18:11 -!- HG` [~HG@185.2.29.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:58 -!- Davidbrcz 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cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-21-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51:38 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-135-249.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:54:43 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:24 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139875 20:55:39 someone who knows cl-ppcre, please explain that to me 20:57:05 Joreji_ [~thomas@153-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:53 jasom: the first one is interpreted as a range between space and the quote mark 20:58:12 oh crap 20:58:14 jasom: use ppcre:parse-string, it really helps understand these little things. 20:58:19 I just did a ppcre:parse-string 20:58:22 you're right 20:59:07 [A-Z ][A-Z -]+$ should work, i think. 20:59:20 I just moved the quote to the beginning, which works too 20:59:55 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:12 -!- LoicLisp [~loic@29.17.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit 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[~serge@109.134.146.216] has joined #lisp 21:05:48 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 21:06:27 bah, humbug. Apparently capitalize-string is defiend to convert"foo's" to "Foo'S" 21:06:40 since ' is non-alphanumeric 21:09:06 I use (string-capitalize str :end 1) a lot 21:09:57 isn't that the same as string-upcase str :end 1? 21:10:18 sure. 21:10:33 but the former conveys intent better 21:11:41 Notice also the difference between ' and  21:13:10 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64877.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:12 I suppose I could do (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" (mapcar (lambda (x) string-capitalize x :end 1) (split-sequence #\Space string))) 21:13:53 Sure, if you wanted to capitalize the words "a", "in", "an", etc 21:14:12 -!- thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:14:18 which string-caplitalize does already 21:14:24 so it's strictly better for my use 21:14:28 they probably should have just not included string-capitalize in any case 21:14:32 I agree 21:14:54 -!- rk[OHIO] is now known as rk[ILLINOIS] 21:17:00 oh wow, that's totally broken. 21:17:11 But what's worse: lisp isn't the only language to do that. 21:17:16 Python has the *exact same* brokenness. 21:17:32 From the docs: 21:17:33 >>> "they're bill's friends from the UK".title() 21:17:34 "They'Re Bill'S Friends From The Uk" 21:17:40 i would think english language capitalization rules would practically constitute NLP 21:17:47 Actually, I have yet to see a language where the "capitalise" function doesn't simply upcase every first char of an alphanumeric sequence. 21:17:50 Common Lisp is an ANSI standard, not an ISO standard. 21:17:59 ANSI = AMERICAN national standard institute. 21:18:10 american english, then 21:18:25 english (simplified) ;) 21:18:33 For the American language, expressed in ASCII (same standard institute), the specified functions and features work perfectly well. 21:18:59 pjb: no, not for let's go! => Let'S go!" 21:19:28 pjb: with an ascii single-quote for the apostrophe 21:19:50 Yes, it's a failure. 21:20:17 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:43 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:20:50 And I personally prefer to capitalize small words in a title, so the a/in/an/&c. is a non-issue 21:20:52 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@174-30-146-228.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:20:59 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:21 clearly the standards committee should have tried to conform to strunk & white 21:22:02 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:21 -!- Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:22:22 no, the standards committee should have junked that function 21:22:44 a function that almost does what I want is worse than no function at all. Though maybe it was widely enough used to be needed 21:23:03 (possibly, but the idea of treating strunk & white as a standards document amuses me) 21:23:15 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 21:24:43 plus Strunk & White is controversial these days (not sure if it was in the 90s) 21:24:51 it's always been rubbish. 21:24:55 burn it with fire. 21:24:59 just to be clear, i did not mean that as a serious suggestion 21:25:35 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-64-109.w109-223.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:26:08 Bike: yeah, but if you're going to suggest it, you should at least pick something like Chicago 21:26:46 If Roddenberry has followed Strunk and White, we wouldn't have "...to boldly go..." 21:31:17 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:24 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:32:41 too bad isn't it 21:32:55 I know this is mostly a common lisp channel, but assuming that all one had were cons cells, what would an efficient structure for sets look like? 21:33:03 Perhaps I should see how clojure implements them 21:33:12 kristof: A tree. 21:33:19 kristof: define efficient; probably a sorted tree 21:33:26 didi: and to make sure that all elements are distinct? 21:33:30 jasom: to quickly solve your problem, cl-ppcre 21:33:30 oh, the sorting would help in that 21:33:47 kristof: You search the tree. 21:33:53 right, of course 21:34:01 This is a meaningless question: you can implement all data structures with just cons cells. 21:34:02 and then access would be log n 21:34:11 That's why lisp only included cons cells at first. 21:34:16 well, you'd have to do a "search" to do a sorted insert anyway 21:34:17 kristof: to do a union (for example) walk the trees in step 21:34:33 -!- arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:39 jasom: Interesting 21:35:01 pjb: I'm aware. 21:35:22 kristof: I think most set implementations are either trees or hash-tables 21:35:31 pjb: I'm just interested in picolisp at the moment, which only has cons cells, so I was wondering how to add set support in the best way. 21:35:32 (not counting the "I only have a half-dozen so I'll use a list") 21:36:01 pjb: And my question has been answered! :P 21:36:10 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:32 thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:05 For the most part, the asymptotic boundings on trees are as good or better than on hash-tables. Constant factors make hash-tables better 21:38:04 e.g. a patricia tree has O(k) lookup, which is the same as a hash-table, but it also lets you output a sorted list in O(n) time, which hash-tables generally don't allow 21:38:26 zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has left #lisp 21:40:55 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:43:48 -!- DoctorDude [~Jake@unaffiliated/doctordude] has left #lisp 21:44:08 francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:57 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:44:57 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:36 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:45:40 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:01 -!- keen__ [~blackened@p3b920831.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:46:17 keen_ [~blackened@p3b920831.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:46:24 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@153-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:47:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64877.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48:06 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:52 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:49:15 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 21:49:36 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-164-167.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:35 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:51:46 Oolo0 [~other@188.162.65.66] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 jasom: Huh? 21:52:16 hash table data structure have O(1), not O(k). 21:52:28 -!- samskull` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:52:30 Oolo0: how long does it take to hash a key? 21:52:36 jasom: 1 21:52:36 O(k) where k is the key-length 21:53:58 Oolo0: with most hash-functions it takes longer to hash "This is a really long key that I am going to insert into my associative data structure" than to hash "x" 21:54:28 pretty much all fast hash functions, it's linear in the key-length (it would be dumb in most cases to use a super-linear time hash function for a hash table) 21:54:43 jasom: but it's even longer to traverse n nodes of tree comparing thing to decide where to go 21:56:09 jasom: so your point is that tries are more efficient than hash table? 21:56:24 for lookup 21:56:52 Oolo0: it takes either a maximum of k operations for a trie or for a key 21:57:19 Oolo0: but hash-tables are faster because of constant factors. Asymptotic complexity is the same or better for tries vs. hash-tables 21:58:18 Mainly it's that reading consecutive bytes is far faster than reading non-consecutive words 21:58:47 jasom: okay, thanks for explanation 21:59:50 -!- Oolo0 [~other@188.162.65.66] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:52 Also it takes a bit of work to make a hash-table that is O(1) with respect to the number of keys in it (you need to grow at the right time, and handle collisions gracefully, etc) 22:00:18 jasom: "bit of work" = "usually not" 22:00:53 if you can build a perfect hash you can get O(k) but otherwise it's going to be worse 22:00:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:01:15 any hash you have to grow or do collision handling on is automatically worse than O(k) 22:01:58 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:02:24 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 22:02:24 and malicious data is a big lose for hash-tables 22:02:33 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 22:02:41 sure but generally you're only going to do that if you're testing ;) 22:03:06 oGMo: or if you throw all of the parameters of a URL into a dictionary 22:03:17 see DoS attacks on nearly every web framework ever 22:03:31 possibly a bad idea depending on your hash 22:03:45 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:33 oGMo: there are collision generators for the hashes used by both ruby and python, for example. Even once that take nonces it's possible to generate high-probability collisions 22:05:12 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:05:21 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:06:49 -!- sc00fy is now known as scoofy 22:08:20 I could be wrong, but I don't know of any hash-functions fast enough for HT use that have withstood scrutiny for more than a year or two (though there are a couple promising ones that are approaching that timefrome) 22:10:02 see SipHash 22:10:33 which apparently ruby has now adopted, making my previous statement false 22:11:57 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:19 https://github.com/brown/sip-hash/blob/master/sip-hash.lisp <-- pretty simple implementation too; this is the first I've looked at it 22:17:49 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:32 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 22:20:08 There's also the compromize approach; make a hash-table and if any bucket gets more than a very small number of entries, use a trie as the bucket 22:22:18 -!- rk[ILLINOIS] is now known as rk[IOWA] 22:33:36 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 22:33:36 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:44 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:46 -!- Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:34:37 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 22:36:12 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:12 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:38 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 22:36:39 Sulimo [~angel@host89-217-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:37:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@153-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:38:37 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:38:44 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:58 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:44 -!- Sulimo [~angel@host89-217-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:41:46 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:41:47 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:46:27 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:27 slothsomeness [~simkoc@95-91-218-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:27 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:25 -!- slothsomeness [~simkoc@95-91-218-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:22 slothsomeness [~simkoc@95-91-218-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:56 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:52:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:09 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:16 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.172] has joined #lisp 22:53:21 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 22:54:17 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:54:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:10 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 22:55:12 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has joined #lisp 22:55:19 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@206.135.235.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:30 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.125.52] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:55:31 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 22:56:11 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:53 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@rrcs-50-74-103-90.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:33 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:03 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:59:30 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:53 mordocai [44bbf2a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.242.165] has joined #lisp 23:02:58 Are regexes the best way to do a split more complex than just splitting by a delimiter? I try to avoid them when possible. The specific problem i'm trying to solve it to break input like "blah blah \"blah blah\"" into ("blah" "blah" "blah blah") instead of ("blah" "blah" "\"blah" "blah\"") like my current split does. 23:03:27 properly nesting quotes isn't even regular, actually 23:03:54 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 23:04:00 Sulimo [~angel@host89-217-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:04:16 as far as I now you cannot solve matching parenthesis using regular expressions (just automatons), therefore mathcing inner \" might get hard 23:04:44 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:07 of course, if you don't expect matching quotes, that's another matter. but still a bit tricky with just ppcre:split. 23:06:08 mordocai: I don't think regexes are what you want. Maybe you should try simply ignoring the \'s and capturing quote delimited strings as a single element 23:06:58 slothsomeness: ("just automatons" is a bit imprecise, there are various automata for various levels of computation, same as languages) 23:07:01 kristof: Well, the I was escaping the quotes for human-readable benifit. The actual string is: blah blah "blah blah" so only one set of quotes. 23:07:08 Well, I* 23:07:29 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:08:13 mordocai: You mean to say that the \'s were of your doing for the purpose of this irc channel? In that case, your job is easy. Split by spaces, unless you encounter quotes. Job, done! 23:08:30 bike: you are right, this was just the first possible soultion that came to mind 23:08:32 no, mordocai meant that the quotes are in the original string. 23:09:02 Right 23:09:09 The quotes were, not the \. Yeah, I think I was overthinking the issue kristof. 23:09:23 Bike: See? ^ :P 23:09:37 escape characters are my greatest nemesis. 23:09:48 mordocai: Naggum has an excellent quote about regular expressions. Let me find it for you 23:09:53 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:40 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 23:10:52 kristof: Well, my favorite quote is something along the lines of "You have a problem, you decide to use a regular expresison. Now you have two problems." I also dislike regexes. 23:11:22 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.61.79] has joined #lisp 23:12:22 that's jwz, just so you know 23:12:43 naggum was generally more wordy and hateful in his aphorisms 23:12:59 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:14 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:13:19 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6cf13.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:33 mordocai: anyway i think a really good answer to your question depends a lot on what exactly you're parsing - eg even CFLs wouldn't really be adequate for splitting words in natural language text 23:13:46 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:14:16 djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:37 Hy, is there a way to get more warnings (something like -Wall -pedantic in gcc)? I'm using clisp and noticed that compiling giver me more warnings than just load. 23:14:48 *gives 23:15:16 Bike: Pretty simple in my case, just a config file that uses spaces to seperate commands and arguments, but allows you to use double quotes if you actually need spaces. I just was overthinking it for some reason, already working on at least -a- solution. now. 23:15:23 aight 23:15:43 I'll ask again if I run into trouble, but i'll have acual code to show :P 23:15:50 Kromitvs: I think compiling ought to give you any warnings or style warnings, the really detailed feedback is optimization hints. not totally sure about the standard or clisp, though. 23:19:23 slothsomeness: regexes can match quoted strings with escaped quotes in them, since the nesting can't get more than 1 deep 23:19:30 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 23:20:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:38 \msg jasom true, but only if no nesting is allowed 23:21:20 slothsomeness: but, for example, matching fields in a CSV that allows quoting of strings (to embed commas) is doable with a regex 23:22:17 pcre's are a superset of a Push-down automoton in capability though, so you probably could do it with a pcre 23:22:47 Bike: I was thinking more in order of inexistent functions, for instance (bt mispealling a name...) 23:23:04 I have to test CL-PCRE against Thomson NFA one day 23:23:11 jasom: but also here is the depth of matching " 1 23:23:41 jason: as soon as you allow deeper nesting it should get impossible 23:23:50 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:56 p_l: i think after reading that paper i checked out what ppcre did on the "a?a?a?a?" stuff, and it wasn't slow, but i might have messed up since ppcre aint using an nfa 23:24:15 Kromitvs: that's a style warning. pretty sure you'd get a displayed warning in most implementations 23:24:29 Bike: well, CL-PPCRE is a very fast regex engine in general 23:25:04 p_l: i mean, i'm wondering if my examples were too short to expose pathological asymptotics. 23:25:11 Kromitvs: clisp is somewhat unique in defaulting to interpreting; most compiled lisps will give you warnings all the time 23:26:24 not all are particularly strict though 23:26:55 Bike: iirc it appeared around 60 or so? 23:27:50 p_l: i mean, i tried the same strings in uh, python's re i think it was - obviously i wasn't being very rigorous - but got the pathology there 23:29:10 hehe 23:29:25 Bike: might be related to how CL-PPCRE is compiled engine 23:29:45 similar to original regex engine, even 23:30:10 yeah, that's what i meant, it might just be faster in general. smaller constants on the asymptotic badness, as it were. 23:30:50 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:11 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:31:16 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 23:33:39 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:45 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:29 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 23:35:05 ok. Thanks for the help 23:35:27 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:36:37 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:03 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-einavjlqwyusmqtp] has joined #lisp 23:39:30 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 23:39:33 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:40:13 DoctorDude [~Jake@unaffiliated/doctordude] has joined #lisp 23:40:15 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 23:40:35 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:12 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:43:33 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:45:14 -!- slothsomeness [~simkoc@95-91-218-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:47 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 Quadresce [~Quadresce@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:48:50 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:49:32 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-248-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:33 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:21 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 23:50:42 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:27 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 23:52:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 23:52:28 why oh why can't I get a full stack trace even with (optimize (debug 3))? 23:55:53 jasom: because the specific bits have a declare optimize? 23:57:14 davazp [~user@92.251.156.228.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 23:57:52 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZZ] 23:59:55 right