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has joined #lisp 02:29:41 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:26 Hi, do any CL implementations on Linux take advantage of Kernel SamePage Merging (KSM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_SamePage_Merging_(KSM) ? 02:30:31 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:35:38 according to https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vm/ksm.txt, they would have to call madvise(addr, length, MADV_MERGEABLE). 02:36:08 james111111 [~james1111@173-26-0-118.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:58 gendl: so you're imagining, like, building some huge structure in a lisp, and then another lisp instance doing the same but actually having the pages merged? 02:38:16 -!- james111111 [~james1111@173-26-0-118.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 02:38:17 yes. 02:38:25 not necessarily huge. 02:38:41 just having more than one Lisp instance which happens to have some duplicate data 02:40:01 Looking through CCL and SBCL code, 02:40:08 it looks like SBCL does it and CCL perhaps does not. 02:40:34 in SBCL, we have in src/runtime/coreparse.c: madvise(addr, len, MADV_MERGEABLE); 02:41:01 i'm not seeing such a call to madvise anywhere in CCL. 02:41:37 anyway, partially answering my own question here thanks. 02:42:19 yeah, i only see MADV_DONTNEED 02:42:58 looks like you need MADV_MERGEABLE to be #define'd during sbcl compile, though 02:43:07 oh. 02:43:23 (i don't know if it is by default, or anything like that) 02:43:25 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:44:21 i think the Allegro CL .dxl file does some of that kind of sharing inherently too, but not for heap data dynamically created during runtime. 02:45:31 i'm not sure how useful this is for most applications, mostly 02:47:23 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:49:04 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has left #lisp 02:50:14 ksm isn't sharing anything 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[~novelizat@185.25.87.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:22:47 -!- namtsui` [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:11 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:48 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:24:55 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.153] has joined #lisp 07:28:31 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:24 this http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5813/AIM-255.pdf?sequence=2 smells like lisp before loop, right? 07:31:51 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:53 peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:49 -!- aw [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:32:56 aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 07:33:28 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 07:33:37 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-mwjolrdbuauzbylf] has joined #lisp 07:34:23 1972 is way before loop 07:34:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:18 SCHEME seems to be the only survivor of that naming meme 07:35:30 -!- ggole [~ggole@124.169.160.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:37:39 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:08 is (some #'stringp lst) an idiomatic way to find the first string in lst? 07:38:38 -!- cantstanya [~what@2001:5c0:1400:a::100f] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:39:11 or is there a 'more clear' way? 07:39:18 why not find-if #'stringp ? 07:40:58 ah, find-if! it felt like there was a 'more clear' way, but I couldn't think of it -- thanks 07:41:35 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 07:41:39 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.122.71] has joined #lisp 07:41:39 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.122.71] has quit [Changing host] 07:41:39 pranavrc 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[~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:59:18 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-gecdbrhvqxxfhett] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:00:49 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:10 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 08:01:52 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:28 alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:59 pillton [~user@124-148-51-200.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:08:47 do we have other mechanisms than defgeneric to define an API/interface and allow "dynamic" implementation of it for subproblems? I'm currently finding myself defining the same functions names and prototypes with different implementations in different packages, and am wondering about cleaning that up 08:09:32 i think slime has something along those lines 08:09:37 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:42 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:39 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:13:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:13:23 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:21 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 08:14:25 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:15:15 -!- arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:29 dim: ...why aren't you just using defgeneric, then? 08:15:31 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:43 sykopomp: just trying to review my options 08:16:07 I would use defgeneric with eql dispatch as a first option yes 08:16:19 arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.182] has joined #lisp 08:16:21 why eql dispatch 08:16:39 because I don't have classes or structs or any data structure involved here 08:16:45 that's a pretty specialized thing, and remember that it keeps object references around. :) 08:16:45 it's only API level stuff 08:17:18 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.76] has joined #lisp 08:17:26 maybe I should review my code and see if I have data to model better than what I do now, that said 08:17:49 ok I smell a big refactoring opportunity, that will brew slowly 08:18:01 API level stuff is basically where defgeneric shines? 08:18:48 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw4.tieturi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:19:15 I guess 08:19:36 I just couldn't think of another CL way to do it and was so surprised not to have a difficult choice to make that I raised it here 08:19:40 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@14-200-126-134.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:19:47 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 08:19:48 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0034.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21:19 novelizations50 [~novelizat@185.25.87.52] has joined #lisp 08:21:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:23:34 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:24:48 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 08:24:57 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:25:04 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:25:27 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.76] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 08:26:52 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:27:04 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 08:27:47 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:33 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:45 clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 08:33:45 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:10 harish_ [~harish@119.234.132.230] has joined #lisp 08:38:11 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:12 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:38:33 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.246] has joined #lisp 08:38:49 brooke_peterson_ [473f1312@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.63.19.18] has joined #lisp 08:39:09 -!- brooke_peterson_ [473f1312@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.63.19.18] has left #lisp 08:39:56 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 08:40:38 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:40:40 -!- ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:40:57 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:55 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:50:09 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.132.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:49 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:51:03 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:51:34 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:51:55 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:13 -!- clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:14 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:57:22 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 08:58:23 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:58:56 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 09:01:33 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-148-234.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:01:44 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:dca3:bbcc:771c:6bc6] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Anywhere.] 14:51:23 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@rrcs-24-103-45-235.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: nbouscal] 14:52:29 nbouscal_ [~nbouscal@rrcs-24-103-45-235.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:39 nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-qqkohipcjogpanaj] has joined #lisp 14:52:48 -!- nbouscal_ [~nbouscal@rrcs-24-103-45-235.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:49 -!- nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-qqkohipcjogpanaj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:37 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.107] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 Shinmera_ [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:53:45 -!- Shinmera_ [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:52 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.128] has joined #lisp 14:54:28 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:54:54 k0001 [~k0001@host252.190-229-215.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.18.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:07 With respect to meta circular evaluation. What does it mean that APPLY returns an expression AND an environment? I get the returning an expression as in expanding a macro. I don't get the returning an environment. 14:57:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:57:13 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 I'm reading background stuff to see if now I finally understand some underlying concepts of compilers. 14:57:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:17 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:4cb4:b46f:e557:95ff] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 15:00:53 nbouscal [nbouscal@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-ktykmuidzlpixhxz] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-49-57.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 Metacircular evaluation I sort of get. I have EVAL. It takes an expression and an environment (mapping of symbols to values) and generates a call to APPLY which takes a function name and a list of arguments and applies the function to the arguments. APPLY returns an object which can be another expression. I don't see where another environment comes from. 15:03:15 Might be necessary in Scheme where you have things like define 15:03:23 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:04:00 Or LET? 15:04:01 If environments are applicative, you also need to return the results of any side-effecting constructs like setq 15:04:05 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:37 No, let doesn't need that 15:04:48 Hmmm. 15:04:52 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:20 Because after evaluating the body of a let with the new binding, there's no need for that mapping in any environment 15:05:21 Setq. I see, that would change the environment. 15:06:43 Right 15:06:56 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:07:07 Defvar will change the environment 15:07:36 Well, sort of 15:07:53 "Global" symbols in Lisp are basically data structures, not lexical bindings per se. 15:07:54 Defun as well 15:08:15 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.85.128] has joined #lisp 15:08:32 awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has joined #lisp 15:09:28 The new environment is the old environment after you have mutated it with apply 15:09:59 Depends on whether you are modelling environments with mutable or applicative structures 15:10:02 But yeah 15:10:26 nipra [~nipra@122.177.18.229] has joined #lisp 15:10:27 drmeiste_ : "APPLY returns an object which can be another expression." ? 15:10:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-28-8.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:02 Perhaps I don't understand that as well. I was thinking as in macro expansion. 15:12:42 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:16:38 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.85.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:15 eff__ [~quassel@114.253.35.102] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:45 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.128] has joined #lisp 15:18:06 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:18:30 -!- eff_ [~quassel@114.246.70.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:20:02 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:20:59 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:05 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:20 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 15:22:42 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:23:01 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 15:23:07 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-49-57.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:23:27 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:39 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:41 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23:53 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:24:15 drmeister: APPLY doesn't apply to macroexpansions 15:24:43 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:24:47 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-30-218.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:25:01 Sorry - I was IRCing on my phone and lost contact - did I miss anything after I said "Perhaps I don't understand that as well. I was thinking as in macro expansion". 15:25:07 He means apply at the meta level, not at the language level (I think) 15:25:10 Stassats - it doesn't? 15:25:30 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:42 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:25:42 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 Hmmm, what is the "meta level" vs the "language level" - macro expansion time vs run-time? 15:26:21 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.11.18] has joined #lisp 15:27:05 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:27:07 The meta level is the language in which you are implementing 15:27:14 drmeister: apply is only for functions 15:27:20 The language level is the language that you are implementing 15:27:24 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 15:28:26 I think I see. 15:29:14 `apply' in the context of `eval'&`apply' is a piece of an interpreter, usually it takes a procedure value and a list of actual parameter values, and computes the value (and possible side-effects) of substituting the actual parameters for the formal parameters in the body of the function value, and then continuing to `eval' the resulting form 15:29:26 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:57 Right. 15:30:09 Often including special forms and macros. 15:30:09 (i suppose one could have something small-step operational semantics -like, where `apply' only did a single reduction step, and returned a new expression for a driver loop to continue evaluating) 15:31:25 yes, if you mean primitive procedures 15:32:09 Hmmm, I wrote a Common Lisp interpreter and a compiler. My interpreter EVAL checks to see if the head of the expression is a special operator and calls the special operator function with the cdr of the expression. It doesn't call APPLY - but maybe this is a sort of APPLY? 15:32:26 Am I making sense here? 15:32:30 but afaiui, conceptually macros are reduced before evaluation begins. and `apply's job is to do procedure application. evaluation of special forms would be the responsibility of other parts of the interpreter 15:32:58 (combination of a procedure operator with a list of operands is, in a sense, one example of a special form) 15:33:24 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 15:34:03 drmeister : in my mind, that is not a case of `apply' 15:34:08 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:34:43 Maybe I have things a little jumbled up in my interpreter EVAL and APPLY. My EVAL also checks if the expression head specifies a macro and does macro expansion and then calls EVAL on the result. 15:35:13 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:35:28 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:51 that's one possible way to do it. as long as it would be possible to do the macro expansion (modulo calls to an `eval' procedure by the object code) before starting your evaluation 15:36:03 drmeister: EVAL and APPLY ought to have nothing at all to do with macros. 15:36:10 skalawag [user@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3ad2] has joined #lisp 15:36:11 (well, people who like FEXPRs will probably disagree) 15:36:25 -!- skalawag [user@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3ad2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:43 waglin [user@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3ad2] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 -!- waglin [user@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3ad2] has left #lisp 15:37:52 ski: That was on me? Whatever little I had known about FEXPRs I forgot a long time ago. 15:37:53 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 15:37:53 Hmmm, I think my interpreter inadvertently supports FEXPRs (I just looked up what that means in Wikipedia). 15:38:15 Neat. 15:38:57 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:38:58 drmeister : it may or may not be nice to allow a macro combination to expand to a macro (like e.g. in `((foo 3 bar) blah)' expanding first to `(foo-3-bar blah)' where `foo-3-bar' is a newly computed macro, and then this expands to `(bar (bar (bar blah)))', and then the macro combinations for the macro `bar' can continue to expand this) 15:39:33 gleag : well, really a continuation comment on what i said just before. though it could be applied to what you said as well ;) 15:40:02 drmeister : hehe, i don't think FEXPRs are neat at all 15:40:41 My idea what EVAL and APPLY ought to do precisely is heavily informed by SICP, althought that ought to be applicable to CL as well. 15:40:50 So from C++ I could do: eval::evaluate(Cons_O::createList(_sym_defun,INTERN("X"),Cons_O::_Nil,Cons_O::createList(cl::_sym_print,Str_O::create("Hello world")))) and it would create the X function which would print "Hello world". 15:40:52 (Certainly compared to LISP 1.5 etc.) 15:41:33 ach, meinen Augen 15:41:50 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:05 (instead of `foo-3-bar' above, you can, if you prefer, think of, in its place, something like : (macro-lambda body `(bar (bar (bar . ,body)))) ) 15:42:30 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:44:15 Ok, I think I get it. Where do you put macroexpansion then in an interpreter if not in EVAL? 15:44:27 I know, "immediately before EVAL". 15:45:36 Do you put it in the READ-EVAL-PRINT-LOOP? 15:46:13 you put it before the initial call to `eval' 15:46:35 so that `eval' never sees a macro combination 15:46:48 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:46:53 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-128-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:20 I see - so I should lift macroexpansion out of my eval::evaluate (EVAL) function and put it just before I call eval::evaluate. 15:47:36 (or you put it in `eval', and then make `eval' call `real-eval' after macro-expansion -- that's basically the same as what i said above, with renaming, though) 15:47:37 drmeister: You always have the option of expanding every time you hit the form (unless the expansion causes undesirable visible side-effects), but it's probably always better expand first and keep the expanded lambda expression. 15:47:52 drmeister : "should" is a strong word 15:47:52 -!- novelizations50 [~novelizat@185.25.87.52] has quit [Quit: novelizations50] 15:49:06 in any case you can do this, and if you couldn't, there'd arguably be something wrong with the semantics your interpreter implements (FEXPR advocates will disagree) 15:49:55 -- and it will possibly be more efficient to expand the macros once, rather than every time you're evaluating code whose source envolved a macro combination 15:49:58 In my interpreter I expand macros everytime they are encountered - if I do anything more complicated/efficient I go down the road of writing another interpreter. I only want to maintain one (very, very slow) interpreter and one compiler. So I bootstrap my system by first running the compiler in the interpreter and then having the compiler compile itself. 15:50:20 bejeweled06 [~bejeweled@185.25.87.52] has joined #lisp 15:50:34 It's an approach that clisp also takes. 15:50:41 the idea is that it should be *possible* to do (complete) macro-expansion without having started the evaluation proper yet 15:51:06 Clisp does that? Does its compiler generate byte-code or native code? 15:51:16 Regarding macro-expansion. 15:51:23 drmeister: Have you read Lisp in Small Pieces? 15:51:30 Although they do have a JIT. 15:51:42 drmeister: CLISP has a rather nice and compact bytecode. 15:51:59 There's also an experimental native JIT. 15:52:02 gleag: I've read most of L.I.S.P. it's really about implementing Scheme. 15:52:11 But I was referring to the expanding every time approach. 15:52:19 drmeister: It's applicable to Lisp as well. 15:52:47 Emacs does the same thing 15:52:48 gleag: I know - everything I know about implementing lisp I got from L.I.S.P. (and the kindness of strangers). 15:53:17 Zhivago: I missed exactly what it is that clisp does. 15:53:35 Rather - I misinterpreted what you said. What do you mean - it's interesting? 15:53:47 drmeister: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/bytecode.html 15:53:50 "What do you mean? ... It sounds interesting." 15:54:11 Oh great - more stuff to read :-) 15:54:14 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:38 The CLISP JIT is underly ambitious, I'm afraid. 15:54:52 >#lisp> But I was referring to the expanding every time approach. 15:55:08 I'm using LLVM as my JIT. 15:55:22 Bah! 15:55:49 LLVM: the suite of optimiziers and code generators for all languages isomorphic to C++. 15:55:52 are global variables dfined with defvar and dynamically scoped so that they exist for the duration of the program? 15:56:00 So clisp expands macros every time it encounters them? Surely not once they are compiled to byte-code. 15:56:28 I believe CLISP has both an interpreted and a compiled mode. 15:56:33 minimal compilation calls for expanding once 15:56:42 gleag: Yes - what's wrong with that? I'm not trying to make the fastest CL - I'm trying to make one that talks to C++. 15:56:47 So it has the semantics that you're talking about. 15:56:51 And that is reasonably fast. 15:56:52 With the intepreter simply walking expressions, but I don't know if it handles macros differently. 15:57:06 clhs 3.2.2.2 15:57:06 Minimal Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm 15:57:07 drmeister: In that case, feel free to use LLVM. 15:57:08 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 Although the expand-each-time approach does seem to surprise people occasionally. 15:57:28 hi 15:57:39 Me, I'd rather apply the algorithms. Whenever I find that I have a cool idea, it turns out that LLVM would hardly support that efficiently. 15:57:47 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@46.233.215.32] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys_] 15:58:04 what are we discussing? A CL compiler for the LLVM? 15:58:06 gleag: You would rather apply which algorithms? 15:58:13 Denommus: Yes. 15:58:42 drmeister: Whatever optimiziations the LLVM mid-end performs? (Or at least those that are useful for me.) 15:58:51 is the nearest thing now ECL+clang? 15:59:23 drmeister: For example, I envisioned an optimizer for generic Lisp that would subsume constant expression evaluation into the type inference system. 15:59:35 I see - but I don't have time for that. With LLVM other, really smart people do that heavy lifting for me. It's like compiling to "C" except I get JIT compilation without calling out to some compiler. 16:00:00 drmeister: It would probably only work efficiently in a JITted Lisp, but it would probably also subsume parts of partial evaluation into the bag. 16:00:10 drmeister: Anyhow, my point is that you have a well accepted precedent. 16:00:12 And - I get access to LLVM-IR which is almost like a portable machine language. I can write compiler macros that generate LLVM-IR. 16:00:31 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp 16:00:36 gleag: I don't understand that last part - could you elaborate? 16:00:38 paul0 [~paul0@177.16.111.24] has joined #lisp 16:00:49 drmeister: Which last part? 16:00:52 Zhivago: Thank you. 16:00:55 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:18 gleag: Actually, all of it: "It would probably only work efficiently in a JITted Lisp, but it would probably also subsume parts of partial evaluation into the bag" 16:01:54 Oh, I missed your previous statement. 16:02:21 gleag: I get what you said now. 16:03:03 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 gleag: Yeah - there's high-level, CL aware optimization (that I don't do any of right now) and then low-level LLVM-IR optimization (that I actively subvert at the moment (sigh)). 16:04:19 -!- awygle1 [~Andrew@50.46.151.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04:55 Right now I'm just going for correctness and reasonable speed - I have both of these. Later I'll improve the compiler to gain more speed. 16:06:08 I have someone who needs some help from me at the moment - I'll be back later. 16:06:46 drmeister: Regarding the type system, I'm simply trying to follow Shen's way of attaching truths to input values in the graph that would allow me to derive truths about output values in a fairly rich way. I'm not sure where the whole thing is leading yet. 16:07:05 I guess I mught try a write up later. 16:08:24 drmeister: what will be the name of your compiler? 16:08:54 drmeister: I'm really interested, if you want some contributions I may... try (I'm not experienced on programming compilers, though, but I know C) 16:10:32 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has joined #lisp 16:10:38 I might try LLVM for bootstrapping purposes, though, although ultimately, I'd like to see zero braces and semicolons in the result. 16:12:25 (I'd have to point out, though, that I'm more oriented towards a Clojure-derived language, with perhaps some CLish goodies for the lower levels, and definitely with Fortress-like algebraic approach to program invariants.) 16:13:26 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 16:15:35 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:22 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.227.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:02 ubikation 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[Max SendQ exceeded] 16:29:01 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 16:29:10 In some circumstances. 16:29:31 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 16:30:08 ggole: any docs on that? 16:30:44 Yeah, sec 16:30:53 http://llvm.org/docs/CodeGenerator.html#sibling-call-optimization 16:30:57 Bet it's out of date. 16:31:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:31:07 But, that's LLVM for you. 16:31:48 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:49 -!- dkordic [~danilo@93-87-124-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:32:00 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:34:58 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-023-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:32 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-223.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: 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[~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:40:00 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:41:40 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:40 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 17:41:47 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 17:42:14 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:23 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:43:25 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.134.188] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:46:09 ypyf [~user@14.123.58.11] has joined #lisp 17:46:24 anunnaki [~anunnaki@c-174-54-115-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:53 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:47:10 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.134.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:24 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-84-59.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:01 -!- knob5312 [~knob@66-50-170-165.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:52:16 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:24 oy, can I not use asdf when I run sbcl with --script? I'm getting 'package asdf does not exist' 17:54:03 ah, "implies --nosys-init 17:58:12 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 17:58:26 isaacbw: you can load asdf manually 17:58:41 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:59 isaacbw: I usually load quicklisp manually, so I can use quicklisp systems 17:58:59 Denommus: how do I do that? 17:59:07 quicklisp, I suppose 17:59:14 I don't care about asdf itself for this 17:59:14 -!- ZabaQ [~ZabaQ@86.63.2.14] has left #lisp 17:59:23 (require :asdf), probably. 17:59:28 ah okay, that's easy 18:00:02 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 18:00:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:01:06 isaacbw: I think (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") will load quicklisp 18:02:02 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:03:44 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:03:52 that did the trick 18:03:54 thanks! 18:04:13 (now I realize the only reason I have quicklisp normally is because that line is in .sbclrc) 18:04:14 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has joined #lisp 18:04:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:04:24 Denommus - I'd love some help and contributions - I'll open source this thing soon - I just want to polish a few things before I release it. 18:04:36 I don't want to end up in reddit/r/badcode 18:04:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:48 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 18:04:56 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:07 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:08:17 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 18:08:20 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:02 -!- ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:33 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 18:14:19 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.230.41.50] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:16:46 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:57 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:16:58 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 18:23:49 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:25:04 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:25:42 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:52 -!- ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:29:48 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:30:26 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:31:05 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:30 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:32:24 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:24 does anyone know if it's possible to hide and export certain functions in a parenscript package (presumably by wrapping them with a self calling function)? 18:33:31 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.153.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:33:37 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.152.39] has joined #lisp 18:33:51 l_ [~reus@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:35:13 -!- l_ [~reus@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:36:08 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:36:12 Hide? 18:37:34 wrap in a closure 18:37:56 maybe that's out of the scope of parenscript 18:37:58 wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-67-158-178-103.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 18:41:09 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 18:42:27 dsevilla [~user@175.Red-83-54-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:41 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 -!- wws-ubuntu [wws@clozure-14C802BB.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:44:50 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 18:45:00 -!- wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-67-158-178-103.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45:19 mindCrime [~prhodes@24.106.207.82] has joined #lisp 18:46:02 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.111.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:40 arnsa [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 18:53:06 -!- dsevilla [~user@175.Red-83-54-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:34 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-235.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 18:55:38 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:05 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:47 isaacbw: I'd just use commonjs for that, which parenscript can very likely take advantage of. 18:57:54 unless it added some silly require transform. 18:58:56 isaacbw: not to mention... doesn't let already do that in parenscript? what does this transform to: (let ((x 1)) (foo x))? 18:59:33 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:59:37 that should probably transform to an IIFE 18:59:42 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-mwjolrdbuauzbylf] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 19:00:20 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 262 seconds] 19:00:38 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:38 sykopomp: a let would sort of work, I guess, though I couldn't do defuns 19:02:04 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@pool-74-98-4-147.altnpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 19:02:18 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:43 I'll just put (setf (getprop exports :func) func) in my parenscript file, and wrap it in a build script with "(function() { ... })(window)" 19:03:00 er, "(function(exports) {...})(window)" 19:04:34 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:07:09 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:30 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 19:08:58 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-ugzwxbyrclpelcas] has joined #lisp 19:11:08 isaacbw: what do you mean you couldn't do defuns? 19:11:16 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-196-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:11:46 is cl-fad maintainer here? I need to open a bug or issue or just report a problem 19:11:49 (let () (defun foo () "hi")) should work as expected, no? does parenscript hoist defuns all the way to the top level? 19:12:09 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-211-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:27 dim: H4ns is the one 19:12:39 awesome! 19:12:48 but you can open bugs on your own 19:13:02 will do too, but I guess an IRC chat might still be a good idea 19:13:45 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:14:08 H4ns: cl-fad does not compile on CentOS 6.4 with SBCL 1.0.38-3.el6 because "file /home/rjgonzale/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-fad-0.7.2/fad.lisp" ; {10042479D1}>: ; Symbol "DELETE-DIRECTORY" not found in the SB-EXT package. 19:14:29 sykopomp: oh, I see. It probably would work though the docs say defuns are undefined when not at the top level 19:15:06 SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR at 13483 (line 282, column 30) 19:15:23 that's in delete-directory-and-files 19:15:42 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:01 sb-ext:delete-directory was added in .44 19:16:08 dim: SBCL 1.0.38 is very old. 19:16:19 yeah, CentOS 6 is not that old tho 19:16:32 Chronic problem of distribution packaging of SBCL and lisps in general. 19:16:39 you'll need a newer sbcl. 19:16:39 I think you can either open a bug at CentOS/RH or fix it in cl-fad 19:16:57 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:04 well that's the right answer and a good way to push people away 19:17:18 If you use a very old SBCL many other things will also make you unhappy. 19:17:21 I'd prefer a practical answer, if there's something simple enough that can be done 19:17:30 Install sbcl from www.sbcl.org and be happy 19:17:45 i don't think expecting people not to use an sbcl from, like, years ago, is too bad 19:17:53 well I'm not running that machine, I deliver software that people want to use on what they have 19:17:59 isaacbw: I would try it, and I would consider the behavior very annoying if that was really the case. 19:18:38 I'm very happy to be in a position where I'm not the only one running the software I wrote, but that means taking some extra steps more often than I'd like 19:18:54 you can suggest using equally old cl-fad 19:19:07 sure, how do I automate that using quicklisp? 19:19:56 provide your own dists? 19:19:59 maybe I need to switch to producing binaries now and maintain private forks of libs for a bunch of different OS versions, then I will actually understand why we are so few of us doing any serious CL work 19:20:03 dim: It's more steps than I would like, but http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html has some steps. 19:20:23 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-30-218.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:31 people doing serious work rarely rely on people having the right versions 19:20:38 no matter which language 19:20:41 now, for real, how hard is it to replace (sb-ext:delete-directory dirname :recursive t) on sbcl before 1.0.44? 19:20:45 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-31-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:20:46 isaacbw: I had to do (ps (let () (let () (defun foo () "hi there")))) 19:20:47 l_ [~ne555@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 isaacbw: but that generated an IIFE 19:21:37 the delete-directory definition seems reasonably independent of too much, maybe you could patch it in 19:21:38 dim: it isn't much hard, but i myself don't like dragging backwards compatibility ad infinitum 19:21:56 -!- l_ [~ne555@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:22:05 cl-fad previosly had sb-posix:rmdir in the walk-directory leg 19:22:21 ok so the real argument is whether CentOS 6 is "ad infinitum" 19:22:43 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:22:47 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.228.244] has joined #lisp 19:23:17 i use debian _unstable_, so you can guess what my answer is 19:23:53 for end users, distribute binaries, people who want to build from scratch will figure for themselves 19:24:29 again, it's not about my personal choices as a developer but about choices of production platforms made by the users of software I work on 19:24:53 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:25:14 so binairies. now I will need to tweak a different environment on each OS I want to support, I guess... ok, nightmares ahead 19:25:14 i see no benefit from using 1.0.44 vs 1.1.11, it's not like 1.0.44 is a long term release and has less bugs 19:25:20 it's like, if your users were using a gcc from last year and this made your code break you wouldn't file a bug with the libraries, would you? 19:25:55 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:26:18 stassats: that's CentOS position I guess, we somehow have to live with it... apparently the SBCL upgrade on there is not that hard tho 19:26:35 mmm, so I could prepare a binary with a newer (or even local compile of) SBCL I guess 19:26:37 that's not that bad 19:26:52 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 19:26:54 and i don't see how using what centos provides makes it any better, on the contrary, the distrubitions are known to butcher lisp projects 19:27:08 not only lisp, you know 19:27:13 PostgreSQL, python, etc 19:27:19 basically all the jazz 19:28:00 they want stable, developer want bleeding edge (at least new and shiny), something like that I suppose (not always, right, but there's something to that I believe) 19:29:24 older sbcl are hardly more stable 19:29:30 nug700 [~nug700@70-58-115-32.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:38 sbcl could have long term releases, but i see no industries who want such things applying any interest 19:30:41 same with PostgreSQL really (at least minor releases) 19:31:08 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 I think we agree, we just have different thresholds 19:31:46 I'd be ok with a glitch to support CentOS 6 where you say "upgrade SBCL already", but in general I agree with you 19:32:07 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-235.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:29 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:33 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:26 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:33:49 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:34:02 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 19:34:39 oudeis_ [~oudeis@2.54.230.197] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 stassats: so what was it about SBCL having local package nicknames? 19:35:25 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.157.176] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:29 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 19:36:16 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.228.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:36:52 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:01 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 19:37:16 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:38:24 I thought I understood this: Why does (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :back)) (make-pathname :directory "/Users/meister/Development")) return #P"/" and not #P"/Users/meister/"? 19:39:25 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:39:37 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:40:05 I thought the '(:relative :back) would append :back to the directory '(:absolute "Users" "meister" "Development") and then remove the "Development" :back part resulting in '(:absolute "Users" "meister") - but in SBCL and ECL it doesn't. 19:41:00 mathrick: what about it? 19:41:05 Oh crap - I figured it out - I assumed "/Users/meister/Development" was being parsed into parts. 19:41:15 yeah, i was going to say, you're saying the directory has a weird name 19:41:21 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 I read somewhere that every Common Lisp HyperSpec web page with a gray background is old - is that true? 19:42:36 gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 clhs is old no matter what colour your shades are 19:43:02 #p"/Users/meister/Development" => (:ABSOLUTE "Users" "meister"), (pathname-directory (make-pathname :directory "Users/meister/Development")) => (:ABSOLUTE "Users/meister/Development") 19:43:08 now i want to make some directories with slashes in their names 19:43:37 stassats: You big silly. 19:44:26 It's timeless. 19:44:41 anyway, grey background is mit's, i think? 19:44:45 i just know it's unpleasant to read. 19:45:01 Like calculus or the Queen of England. 19:45:25 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:45:31 because nobody argues about who invented calculus, or the royal succession :p 19:45:33 drmeister: old anyhow 19:45:44 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:46:10 i read clhs in w3m, there's no background colour 19:46:12 you know there's some noble in germany who has a claim to the english throne? wack 19:47:37 well, there was the house of hannover, but that looks like off-topic 19:47:38 Here it is: http://www.cliki.net/clhs --> "If the CLHS has a gray background, you have a version which was released prior to version 5" 19:48:08 My aunt lives in Hannover. 19:48:25 *drmeister* loves his auntie. 19:48:34 maybe you can be the king of england too 19:48:59 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-84-59.prtc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:42 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:49:56 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:58 You need a weak chin for the job - I have a very prominent chin. You know what they say about men with big chins... 19:50:07 ... they say they have big hands. 19:50:46 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@2.54.230.197] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:51:03 maybe being the author of a common lisp implementation is noble enough 19:53:27 Ok - got it: (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :directory '(:relative :back)) (parse-namestring "/Users/meister/Development/")) --> #P"/Users/meister/" 19:54:37 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:55:11 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:55:35 Is one of the problems with pathnames that you have to tack on a "/" to a user supplied directory to tell the parse-pathname to treat the last name as a directory component. Someone said that a few days ago and I'm just experiencing it. 19:55:59 i don't know how else it would know what's a directory. 19:56:04 it definitely trips people up, though. 19:56:15 Is there a portable way to get around this? 19:56:29 what do you expect it to do? 19:56:35 cl-fad:as-directory 19:56:52 pathname- 19:58:13 that doesn't work on centos 6 19:58:54 just get yourself centos 7 19:59:28 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:59:32 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 20:02:11 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:02:45 I need a quick-and-dirty "change-directory" command so I'll use: (format nil "~a/" (string-right-trim "/" raw-dir)) to guarantee a trailing #\/ 20:03:08 that doesn't sound good 20:03:35 What would be better? 20:04:08 what cl-fad:pathname-as-directory does 20:04:21 tesuji_ [~tesuji@x2f66410.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:37 Oh sure - but I'd have to get cl-fad working on my implementation. 20:04:40 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:45 you don't 20:05:04 you can do what cl-fad:pathname-as-directory does 20:05:09 Oh, you mean look at what cl-fad:pathname-as-directory does? 20:06:09 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 20:06:14 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 20:08:18 -!- w0rm_x [~dd@5.108.74.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:52 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 I see - it appends the file-namestring of the pathname to the directory. 20:09:22 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 20:11:14 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 20:12:55 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:08 oudeis [~oudeis@109.64.19.108] has joined #lisp 20:14:49 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-31-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:14:52 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.64.19.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:55 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:25 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:55 Not to be a contrarian - but the cl-fad:pathname-as-directory will not process the simple namestring ".." properly. As in cd "..". 20:19:17 stassats: you mentioned that SBCL had them, which is news for me, and I'd like to learn more 20:19:38 I take back some of the nice things I said about PATHNAME a few days ago. 20:19:46 mathrick: i give you the green light for learning more 20:21:11 stassats: what about giving me some pointers too? :) 20:21:28 how about, the manual? 20:21:38 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:25:25 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-1-119-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:19 ck [~user@aftr-37-24-151-19.unity-media.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:50 I'm off the the Apple store to get my (hopefully repaired) laptop - it's going to be a nut-house on account of the new phones. See y'all later. 20:29:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-31-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:56 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:32:40 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.18.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:57 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:33:19 -!- ggole [~ggole@124.148.204.248] has quit [] 20:34:07 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:18 juliangindi [~juliangin@50-198-150-254-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:45 "it's going to be a nut-house on account of the new phones" <- it's always a nut house there, no need for new phones :) 20:35:52 -!- axion [~axion@60.sub-70-197-198.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:40 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:20 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:29 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-82-141.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:39:42 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B3893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:55 -!- CrazyEddy [~catadiopt@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:50 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 20:44:18 -!- juliangindi [~juliangin@50-198-150-254-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: juliangindi] 20:44:24 seangrov` [~user@78-1-119-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:44:38 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-023-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:47:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.152.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:31 -!- seangrov` [~user@78-1-119-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:57 nug700_ [~nug700@70-58-115-242.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:39 -!- nug700 [~nug700@70-58-115-32.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:55 CrazyEddy [~mechanica@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:54:11 -!- ypyf [~user@14.123.58.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:51 -!- ksinkar [~koustubhs@115.111.107.30] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:58:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:00:04 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:00:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~mechanica@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:01:52 -!- genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:14 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:05:11 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat99.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 I'm back from Richard Stallman's conference in Paris. I've got his biography autographed. :-) 21:07:08 It's on topic, "Lisp" is present on 8 pages of the book according the index. 21:07:29 olvar [~olvar@w-133.cust-3037.ip.static.uno.uk.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:40 pjb: what book is that? 21:07:55 oh nevermind 21:07:59 his autobio 21:08:04 er bio 21:08:17 Revised French translation of "Free as in Freedom". 21:08:38 -!- brmj [444631d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.70.49.208] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:08:49 not exactly auto, since it was written by somebody else from interviews, etc, but Stallman added corrections and wrote the preface. 21:09:24 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:28 antonv_ [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has joined #lisp 21:10:01 "Richard Stallman et la révolution du logiciel libre - une biographie autorisée" FDL 21:10:05 I just used the following code to replace a single property in a property list, returning a new list, and I wonder if that's the idiomatic way of doing it? (loop for (key value) on target by #'cddr append (list key (if (eq :type key) (getf source :type) value))) 21:10:45 dim: (list* key value old-plist) 21:11:30 otherwise, you've inverted the then and else expressions. 21:11:55 Ah no, you get the new value from source. 21:12:20 Well it's not factorized! You should abstract it away! 21:13:00 dim: pjb's right though, putting new values on front is usually how plists are used, insofar as plists are usually used 21:13:07 But since you don't modify the original target list, you can just use (list* :type (getf source :type) target) 21:13:28 ejbs [~user@h-30-123.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:47 I don't get it, how the heck do I alter the text that's displayed in the debugger when an error is signalled? 21:13:54 ejbs: which text? 21:13:58 well I'd like to avoid duplicates in the plist just for the debugging to be as easy as possible (when dumping lists on screen I want my C-r grepping to be reliable) 21:14:17 so it seems like idiomatic enough to me then, thanks guys 21:14:20 ejbs: the error message can be defined with a :report or other print function or print-object method on the condition. 21:14:54 Of course, you can do that only on your own conditions. 21:15:23 dim: (setf (getf target :type) (getf source :type)) 21:16:11 I did use that in the previous version of that function and it was buggy as in returning nil in cases I didn't understand, so I moved away from it 21:16:38 pjb: Hm, thing is: I totally *did* do that 21:16:39 yCrazyEdd [~reheap@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:16:56 dim: you don't take the value it returns 21:17:03 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:29 -!- yCrazyEdd [~reheap@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:33 I must have been something as stupid as that yeah 21:17:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139076 21:17:39 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:16 The value-error condition inherits from error and defines two slots, provided-value and message. It also has a PRINT-OBJECT defmethod defined 21:18:27 does value-error have a :report initarg? what does it do? 21:18:28 ejbs: I don't know if it's possible to do that in the call to error. I was thinking in (define-condition  :report ) 21:19:04 CrazyEddy [~nephrite@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 21:19:26 ejbs: see for example (define-condition not-a-number  and (error 'not-a-number  in clhs error 21:20:12 pjb: Ah, so I'm supposed to define the report slot in my definition? I see. I expected ERROR to tell me that I supplied a non-defined argument :/ 21:20:25 does rms speak french? 21:20:29 i've heard him speak spanish 21:20:41 You'd have to (define-condition value-error ((report :init-arg :report value-error-report)) (:report (lambda (condition stream) (funcall (value-error-report condition) condition stream)))) for that to work. 21:20:55 macdice: yes, he did it in French. He speaks well enough. 21:21:25 It was recorded and will be available (not on youtube ;-)). 21:21:28 nilly [~nil@c-71-231-216-136.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:30 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:21:52 *macdice* wonders if computer hacker types are better at learning languages (grammar, details) or worse (erm, people) 21:22:15 probably no major correlation, as fun as speculating is 21:22:19 -!- CrazyEddy [~nephrite@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:19 CrazyEddy [~nephrite@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:22:34 ejbs: it's more common to define a report for a condition class than for individual condition instances, as you might expect 21:22:34 pjb: So wait, is report supposed to be supplied as a slot to the condition? 21:22:41 ejbs: no 21:22:48 ejbs: are you sure you don't want (error 'simple-error :format-control "A value of either 1 or 0 was expected but was provided with ~a" :format-arguments (list integer)) ? 21:22:51 ejbs: pjb is providing a way for what you wrote to work, but what you wrote is wrong 21:22:58 To hear and talk, it actually depends on the phonemes you've heard before 5 years old. For the grammar, perhaps we have a slight advantage, but probably not. Must be the same as in any group. 21:23:03 ejbs: yes. 21:23:16 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:23:19 I mean, no. 21:23:26 It's an option to define-condition, not a slot. 21:23:40 joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:51 I've proposed an implementation of the value-error condition that would let you pass a :report argument to error, so that it's used to report the condition. 21:23:53 God, the condition system is still too much for me. At least when it comes to stuff like this. pjb: I tried to provide it as an option, didn't work. Error 21:24:22 ejbs: just check the define-condition not-a-number in clhs error, the example is very simple. 21:24:42 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:25:14 Hm, oh. I thought I was supposed to check the type, not the function. Thanks pjb 21:25:18 I'm not the contradicting guy, you know. 21:25:29 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:25:50 If you write something silly in lisp, I just provide what lisp is needed to make it run :-) 21:25:56 However silly it is. 21:25:59 la-la-la, are you sure that what you want is not covered with simple-error? 21:26:04 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:25 Teratogen [leontopod@unaffiliated/teratogen] has joined #lisp 21:26:29 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:26:49 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 21:26:56 Well, in general simple-error or error are not good as condition, because you can't get from them programmatically any detail about the problem. You can't use them in correct the error in handlers. 21:26:58 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-ugzwxbyrclpelcas] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 21:27:05 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:14 So it's better to define specific conditions with interesting slots, and then to define a report function to print it nicely. 21:27:45 You can also add a format-control and a format-arguments (perhaps thru a mixin), to add a human readable error message from the error signaling point. 21:27:59 Man... The tutorials on the condition system feels kind of lackluster. Or maybe I just suck. 21:28:21 There's a good paper about them by Kent Pitman IIRC. Perhaps technical though. 21:29:21 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:29:45 Yeah, it's very technical. They all talk about how you can use conditions to signal restarts and how it affects the stack and so on. So I can write RESTART-CASE and all that stuff. I dunno, I just feel that my knowledge is lacking 21:29:53 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:55 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host176.186-125-149.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:02 (define-condition other-error (simple-error)) 21:30:16 ejbs: define-condition is just like defclass, with some specific options. 21:30:40 (define-condition other-error (simple-error) ()) 21:30:47 you need the slot list. 21:31:11 pjb: THAT I know. I'm not entirely clueless, it's just a few specific parts that I'm completely lost on 21:31:28 pjb can help you to get lost even further 21:31:33 :-) 21:31:40 What parts? 21:32:49 Heh. Haha, I'm not sure. That's the problem, I have this nagging "This isn't perfectly clear to me yet"-feeling, but I don't know what I'm missing. You really don't have to help me, at least not until I have a specific and good question for you ;). Thank you anyway :) 21:34:04 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:44 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:37 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:37 Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:38 Anyway, time for me to sleep. See you guys 21:37:21 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:32 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB3173.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:04 -!- bejeweled06 [~bejeweled@185.25.87.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:43:11 -!- ejbs [~user@h-30-123.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 21:44:03 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:21 any cl-protobufs users here (sorry this is the third day in a row i've come in here rambling about protobufs, sorry)? i'm trying to figure out how to work with extensions and have run out of documentation and/or neurons... nested extensions, which i know how to do in python protobufs 21:48:10 bejeweled06 [~bejeweled@185.25.87.52] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:48 specifically, the thing that in python is "cat = animal.Extensions[Cat.animal]" in the tutorial at http://www.indelible.org/ink/protobuf-polymorphism/ -- how is that implemented with cl-protobufs? i tried (make-instance 'cat), which gives you a cat without the properties of animal, and (make-instance 'animal) which gives you an animal, but i can't see how to get at the extensions to instantiate a cat 21:51:24 if you ran out of documentation, then there's the code itself left 21:52:45 -!- bejeweled06 [~bejeweled@185.25.87.52] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:31 arquebus [~frath@c-107-3-164-239.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 -!- gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odcházím] 21:57:12 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:00:27 hajji80 [~hajji80@185.25.87.52] has joined #lisp 22:01:53 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:30 -!- ck [~user@aftr-37-24-151-19.unity-media.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:50 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 -!- arquebus [~frath@c-107-3-164-239.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:05:05 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:54 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:08:46 -!- neoncortex [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:06 neoncortex [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 22:10:57 nalkri [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 22:11:57 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 22:15:37 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:18:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:29 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:20:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:22:57 has anyone seen lukego in recent times? 22:24:53 mathrick: yes 22:24:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:53 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:26:01 Xach: on IRC perhaps? I need to ask him for an OK to take over an old elisp package of his 22:28:13 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f68c24.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:26 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:31:31 -!- prxq__ [~mommer@x2f67813.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:31:37 No, not on irc. In real life, and on twitter & reddit. 22:32:26 ah, fair enough 22:32:30 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:32:36 I'll send him an email then, like some kind of caveman 22:32:41 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:35:29 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB3173.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:15 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.56.120.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:41 harish_ [~harish@119.56.123.221] has joined #lisp 22:37:31 alphaho [~alphaho@host86-179-213-26.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:41 -!- danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewi-1] 22:39:33 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:40:49 -!- Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:05 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:21 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:42:42 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 22:42:46 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:04 -!- alphaho [~alphaho@host86-179-213-26.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:25 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:55 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:53:00 seangrov` [~user@78-1-119-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:53:07 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 22:55:07 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:23 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:04:07 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B3893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:21 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:06:18 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:06:35 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:55 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:18:53 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.107] has joined #lisp 23:19:17 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:20 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:01 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:39 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 dsevilla [~user@175.Red-83-54-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:09 paul0 [~paul0@177.16.111.24] has joined #lisp 23:24:27 -!- arrsim [~user@27-32-235-88.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:06 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:32:53 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:32:55 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.107] has joined #lisp 23:33:26 desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 23:33:30 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d400:9911:5358:8956:9b0f] has joined #lisp 23:33:46 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:36:25 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317373.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:39:55 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:23 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:18 ypyf [~user@14.123.58.11] has joined #lisp 23:47:11 -!- envia [~envia@70-138-245-82.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:33 envia [~envia@70-138-245-82.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:23 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]