00:00:06 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:01:03 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:09 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:02 ssqq [~songzhiqu@58.254.172.180] has joined #lisp 00:03:05 I suppose I could just deal with each bad instance since the class of the tag it replaces says what the original tag was, thats not too bad 00:03:26 write a new smart html parser 00:03:31 gonna give it a shot and see how far I can go with that 00:04:02 Besides Emacs, If have any other implementation of emacs lisp? 00:05:56 elisp is pretty linked to emacs... 00:05:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for is pretty linked to emacs.... 00:07:00 "did you know: you can submit pull requests to remove those pesky message from specbot" 00:07:35 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:37 I like elisp, but similar with Vim 00:08:36 *stassats`* hopes for open source fairies to fix things 00:11:07 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host5.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:11:17 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12:24 ericmathison [~ericmathi@66-192-9-99.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:55 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:17:39 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:42 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:48 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.201.191] has joined #lisp 00:22:47 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 00:22:51 -!- Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 00:23:24 -!- ssqq [~songzhiqu@58.254.172.180] 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reset by peer] 00:50:25 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host5.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:25 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 00:54:13 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:15 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:55:33 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-128-158.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:49 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:48 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:43 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:58:37 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:46 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:59:26 well, just finished Touretzky's Common Lisp - A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 00:59:48 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:08 i have to say, it was a great book 01:00:10 desophos: nice 01:02:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:45 desophos: now you can move on to Practical Common Lisp and PAIP 01:03:07 cool :) 01:03:12 thanks for the recommendations 01:03:15 seconded :) 01:04:53 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 01:04:53 oh norvig, i have his "other" book 01:05:04 the Russell & Norvig AI book 01:05:32 PAIP looks awesome 01:06:08 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 01:07:35 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:49 desophos: it is. worth every cent 01:09:35 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:10:02 what about SICP? 01:10:22 this one is even free 01:10:44 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 01:11:14 SICP is good but it's scheme not CL 01:11:22 right, that's why i asked 01:11:27 it's not really about scheme 01:11:46 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:46 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-085.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:43 PCL is freely available too 01:12:52 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.226] has joined #lisp 01:13:55 well i plan to read them all 01:14:12 probably PCL -> SICP -> PAIP 01:14:18 but not now :/ too much work 01:14:28 i mean too much other work to do 01:14:32 don't forget to read some fiction books for a change! 01:14:36 haha 01:14:42 note that SICP also has free video lectures online 01:14:46 that's neat 01:15:13 and don't forget to write programs 01:17:32 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-173-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:17:46 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:56 and read them... :) (good examples from other programmers, I mean) 01:20:14 but it is only by writing that you can appreciate that it is not just the end product, but how you get there, that is important 01:20:36 sell them, and you won't care about the quality 01:22:16 well, the reason i'm learning lisp is to write programs 01:22:29 it's not just a curiosity 01:24:00 i'm actually writing my senior project in Lisp 01:24:41 so i have to balance learning Lisp and writing Lisp... 01:26:38 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:27:37 writing lisp and learning lisp are not really two separate things 01:28:00 i suppose that's true for any language 01:28:54 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:32:18 -!- harish [~harish@119.56.122.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:32:48 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-78.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:21 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:54 DataLinkDroid, that's not quite true 01:35:14 i've even worked with people who can write in language X and get by without actually learning more of the language 01:35:31 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 01:35:50 e.g., "what is this function called lambda? where is it defined in our codebase?" 01:36:01 quite right. you can learn just enough to blub by 01:36:28 alright, thanks DataLinkDroid and stassats` 01:36:29 i'm off 01:36:32 later 01:36:51 bye 01:36:53 jlongste` [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:41 Quadrescence: that's what i do with languages which aren't CL 01:38:52 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:03 :) 01:39:15 -!- walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:39:32 walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:41 echo-area 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:50:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:28 ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:15 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:24 -!- Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:15 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:54 Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:29 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 05:08:34 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 05:11:33 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ssmufsxcfvicarus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:11:44 is there anything like clojure's leiningen for cl? 05:15:02 isaacbw, quickproject? 05:19:31 Quadrescence: I guess that does some basic things 05:19:43 what else do you want? 05:19:52 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:59 ircer [~root@125.39.34.32] has joined #lisp 05:20:07 ASDF and Quicklisp from there allow you to load the projects and their deps into an interactive session 05:20:44 -!- ircer [~root@125.39.34.32] has left #lisp 05:24:15 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 05:26:39 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:27:23 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 05:28:56 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:58 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:29:07 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:30:25 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:31:04 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 05:32:03 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:08 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:32:17 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:36:13 Okay got CHTML to do what I wanted ;) 05:36:43 I move the styles into the head where they belong when it encounters then in bad place 05:36:53 Then = them 05:42:59 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 05:43:33 Had to fork it and put into local-projects and add heuristic to handle styles outside of head by moving them to head, instead of default way of converting the style to span (which is not so good) 05:44:55 sdemarre [~serge@26.66-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:44:55 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-173-67-38-235.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:46:51 In quicklisp if one app requires my local-project chtml, but another app requires the normal on in software, how do I specify that or make that work? 05:47:10 On = one 05:48:42 <|3b|> if you can't get changes merged upstream, rename the modified one or have separate quicklisp dirs (assuming they don't need to be loaded in same lisp image) 05:49:21 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:53:11 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:54:42 kmox83_ [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:55:00 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:55:01 -!- kmox83_ is now known as kmox83 05:56:52 -!- jlongste` [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:57:13 That's not a bad idea, ill rename my local one ;) 05:57:26 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 05:57:51 |3b|: Thanks 05:58:14 <|3b|> don't forget to rename both the system and package(s) not just the .asd 05:59:13 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:00:38 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 06:07:37 foeniks [~fevon@p57A5C212.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 Will do, thanks 06:10:56 -!- hugod [~user@65.94.29.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:10:56 hugod [~user@65.94.29.145] has joined #lisp 06:12:28 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:12:56 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c39f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:09 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 06:13:38 kmox83_ [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:13:43 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:13:43 -!- kmox83_ is now known as kmox83 06:15:08 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@host1-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit 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-!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 11:46:26 -!- ehu` [~ehu@109.38.153.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:47:22 francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:27 ASau` [~user@p5797F542.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:48:46 -!- ASau [~user@p5797E702.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:49:27 Hi. I works lisp as inferior-lisp in emacs. the default directory is "c:/" so (load "myfile.lisp") works ok only if file is in C:/ however I can't seem to change the working directory to load files that are outside C:/ using somethuing like (sb-posix:chdir "C:/emacs/zscripts/ia-x86") keeps the wd as c:/ 11:50:18 is this something I can change from lisp or is it emacs related ? 11:50:23 ehu [~ehu@109.38.153.229] has joined #lisp 11:51:14 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.2.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:51:42 francogrex: most/all file operations in CL work relative to *default-pathname-defaults* 11:52:05 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:52:06 changing the *default-pathname-defaults* doesn't do the trick Xach 11:52:37 I wanted to add that just before you suggested it 11:53:08 although the pathname changes it still loads only files in c:/ ! 11:53:09 francogrex: What is the value of *default-pathname-defaults*? 11:53:36 francogrex: these two things are quite independent. 11:54:40 #P"c://" and (setf *default-pathname-defaults* #P"C:/emacs/zscripts/ia-x86//") no luck 11:55:30 francogrex: no luck with what? 11:55:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:55:47 What function did you expect to work that doesn't? 11:55:59 -!- DeadTrickster [~dead@62.122.188.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:43 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.2.133] has joined #lisp 11:57:21 francogrex: also remember that *d-p-d* is a special variable and in many implementations, it can be thread-specific, as opposed to the POSIX working directory. sb-posix:chdir can't ever hope to be able to change *d-p-d* in a consistent way. 11:57:52 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:55 Try: (setf *default-pathname-defaults* #P"C:/emacs/zscripts/ia-x86/") (truename "myfile.lisp") (load "myfile.lisp") 11:58:18 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:45 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:00:37 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:00:53 It's totally unspecified what happens when a pathname component is empty in a namestring. Already, that namestrings are basically unspecified So I wouldn't dare try to put two slashes with nothing in between in pathnames 12:02:06 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:21 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:02:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:02:55 ggole [~ggole@124.150.44.227] has joined #lisp 12:03:00 ogamita`: Is it possible for a pathname component to be an empty string? 12:03:25 If so, than "...//..." would have an obvious semantics. :) 12:03:35 s/than/then/ 12:04:00 leo2007 [~leo@123.115.252.149] has joined #lisp 12:05:09 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:27 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:41 ogamita`: Xach : ok it was the spelling of the pathname; #P"C:/emacs/zscripts/ia-x86/" the "/" at the end was missing 12:06:16 -!- sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:06:24 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:07:28 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 francogrex: you're now allowed to call us stupid, as we were actually supposed to notice that. 12:08:10 Is there a "never forget X, Y , Z..." web page for CL? :) 12:08:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:08:49 "Always finish your directories with /" would be a nice entry. 12:09:18 gleag: I don't think francogrex gave accurate enough info to blame the help. 12:10:01 Xach: He actually wrote "using somethuing like (sb-posix:chdir "C:/emacs/zscripts/ia-x86") keeps the wd as c:/" and I missed that. 12:10:46 Which is why I asked about the relevant variable, *default-pathname-defaults*. 12:11:17 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:11:27 gleag: CL allows that, POSIX sort of doesn't 12:11:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:43 fe[nl]ix: What is the meaning of "that" in this context? 12:12:44 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has joined #lisp 12:13:32 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:15:27 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:16:06 "for a pathname component to be an empty string" 12:16:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:18:07 fe[nl]ix: Ah. I sort of expected that. And one would assume that the behavior of a CL impl on a POSIX system, given such a pathname, is undefined and implementation-dependent? 12:18:26 Or perhaps scratch that undefined... 12:18:54 (Implementation-dependent doesn't count as undefined, I think?) 12:19:36 It depends on how portable you want your code to be. :) 12:19:36 that's correct 12:20:19 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:21 POSIX file-system nodes cannot be zero-length strings 12:20:40 Zhivago: I want my code to fit into a laptop. 12:20:49 You could try sitting on it. 12:20:55 That's sufficiently portable to me. :) 12:21:00 gleag: it's just that consecutive path separators are supposed to be treated as a single one 12:21:22 fe[nl]ix: In the CL spec? 12:21:23 with the exception of an absolute path that starts with exactly two slashes 12:21:28 no, in POSXI 12:22:24 fe[nl]ix: Ah. That one I know. I'm just not sure about CL pathnames. 12:23:07 in doubt, avoid zero-length components 12:23:47 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:24 Or specify that they are posix namestrings. :) 12:25:30 Except...what are two initial slashes supposed to do? 12:25:57 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:26:04 In posix I didn't think there was anything special about that. 12:26:09 kernel-specific 12:26:10 (As in, differently from any other double slash.) 12:26:42 AFAIK Ultrix used to use that for network resources 12:26:51 possibly AIX too 12:27:11 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:18 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:27:52 Hmm. Adding that to the list of surveys I have to do for myself. :) 12:27:53 and the DEC people that went to MSFT brought that into NT 12:29:12 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 I suspect it might have been part of OSF/1 actually 12:29:49 or certain parts developed in it 12:29:53 If it's used on obscure systems, I can't possibly know about that. :) 12:30:06 You might possibly have obscure knowledge. 12:30:07 The only obscure thing I've ever used was VMS. 12:30:20 two backslashes start "real" paths on NT, anyway 12:30:30 (instead of emulated) 12:31:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:31:03 Well, two backlashes I know. Forward slashes, not so much (except for URIs/URNs). 12:31:23 gleag: forward and backward slashes are, or should be, treated the same 12:31:28 Zhivago: «A pathname consisting of a single slash shall resolve to the root directory of the process. A null pathname shall not be successfully resolved. A pathname that begins with two successive slashes may be interpreted in an implementation-defined manner, although more than two leading slashes shall be treated as a single slash.» 12:31:44 -!- gleag is now known as gleag^afk 12:32:13 gleag: this year I've used a Multics system, and a IBM MVS system. Oh and also a MS-Windows system. 12:32:19 Zhivago: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap04.html section 4.11 12:32:20 Very exciting. 12:32:25 :-) 12:32:29 ogamita`: Multics? 12:32:44 that is, *where*? 12:32:49 Zhivago: you mean annoying ? 12:32:59 There's at least one accessible on the Internet :-) 12:33:13 Well, some kinds of excitement turn into annoyance. :) 12:33:18 Well, I tried to get emacs running on it. 12:33:25 ogamita`: that's news to me, given that the last Multics site I could find was closed down in 2000 12:33:25 So it counts as lisp. 12:35:50 -!- clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:13 Perhaps it was an OpenVMS system then. ssh demo@dahmer.vistech.net 12:37:32 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 12:39:38 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.235.71] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 12:39:50 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:40:08 ogamita`: No route to host 12:42:35 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.226] has joined #lisp 12:44:11 ... gein is down again? 12:45:06 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:45:25 what's gein ? 12:45:34 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.12] has joined #lisp 12:45:40 fe[nl]ix: the main surviving node of deathrow cluster that ogamita tried to link to 12:45:53 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 apparently the cluster is down, at least for public access 12:48:43 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:24 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:25 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:55:53 loke_erc` [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:56:36 aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:57:30 -!- loke_erc [~user@2001:470:36:b4a:550f:c9b9:738c:6dc5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:15 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 13:02:25 Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:32 ogamita`: deathrow in general is dead, hw fault. Anyway, they didn't have VAX Lisp (I am still hunting for that one) 13:04:06 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:21 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:05:33 -!- francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:51 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.2.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:37 Well, hardware is hard to maintain. That should move to virtual machines. 13:07:08 virtual machines don't run in vacuum 13:07:14 We need better and smoother virtual machine management. I've had virtual machines that don't run anymore ;-( 13:07:24 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:07:29 p_l: nope, but they run on maintained systems. 13:07:51 The Genera situation is really a PITA> 13:08:08 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:08:10 kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:08:11 -!- loke_erc` [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:32 ogamita`: doesn't mean that a volunteer-run servers can't develop hw problems 13:09:02 and despite what some people think, "cloud" isn't necessarily cheaper (or viable at all) 13:09:27 Indeed. 13:09:42 -!- sdemarre [~serge@26.66-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:10:10 Cloud doesn't enter much into my mind. I mean, I have MY own dedicated server somewhere in Germany, but all my data is copied locally. 13:10:38 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:10:40 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:10:51 ogamita`: at Hetzner ? 13:10:58 Yep. 13:11:01 :-) 13:11:04 The one. 13:11:04 it's a bit annoying to me how some of the more interesting recent VPS hosts have fee structure that makes me a bit uneasy about lisp use (low RAM amounts) 13:11:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:11:50 -!- gleag^afk is now known as gleag 13:11:51 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 13:12:33 p_l: It probably also depends on what you mean by "cloud". 13:12:46 p_l: for 50 a month you can have a Hetzner machine with 32GB of RAM 13:13:25 fe[nl]ix: What can you get for €50 a year? :-) 13:13:41 not much 13:14:04 that's about 10 times price increase on what I pay now, and 20~30 on price of a machine that could serve as quite beefy database host 13:14:21 s/20~30/2~5/ 13:14:44 (reminder to self: check units before hitting enter) 13:14:53 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:16:01 fe[nl]ix: Are you sure about those €50 per month? I see that as €129 per month on their pages. 13:16:07 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:10 Ah..."managed server". 13:18:14 50/month would be... 2G ram, 2 vCPU, 200G storage @ 0.5 billion IOPS/month 13:18:17 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:44 p_l: where ? 13:19:00 fe[nl]ix: oktawave.com 13:19:06 https://www.hetzner.de/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40 13:19:14 They specialize their platform on crazy I/O capability, though 13:19:23 fe[nl]ix: I've already found that. :-) 13:19:28 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 13:19:39 hetzner changes things around if you need a fairly common server 13:19:55 It's funny that the virtual servers don't look nearly that appealing. I'm not sure what's the catch there. 13:20:02 and the CPU is a quad-core haswell 13:20:20 I'll move to that soon 13:20:30 gleag: well, getting 3GiB/s sustained, 0.5 billion IOPS storage at hertzner isn't quite that easy 13:20:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:20:48 suddenly your database server doesn't need so much ram 13:21:32 I think it would be something in the range of 15-20k USD? 13:21:37 So the reason why their virtual servers aren't that much cheaper is because they have impressive IO fabric? 13:22:16 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:27 gleag: virtual servers must run on real servers! :-) 13:22:35 gleag: yes. fast enough to be within order of magnitude of RAM bandwidth per core, and with crazy amounts of concurrency 13:22:46 gleag: memory and time can't be virtualized, they can only be not used by you. 13:22:54 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:23:02 ie. virtual server a good for who owns the real servers. 13:23:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:23:02 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:23:07 Well ... there is swap. 13:23:09 s/a/are/ 13:23:29 loke_erc` [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:23:56 Zhivago: yeah, I talked with them about it, considered doing experiments with modifying the way SBCL allocates memory to make it explicitly backed by file on storage (async) 13:24:33 ogamita`: I do understand that, but there doesn't appear to be any guaranteed CPU throughput for the vservers and the largest vserver's RAM is 1/16th of the smallest dedicated server's RAM. 13:24:47 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 hi Fare :) 13:25:14 They don't buy Watson-worth hardware to make their servers, only clusters of Personal Computers. 13:25:33 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:03 gleag: the best thing for "cloud" sellers is that not many know a) how to efficiently use the machines b) actually spend time to calculate full range of costs 13:26:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:26:51 p_l: So you're saying that insufficient information distribution is important for the IaaS and PaaS market as it is for any other market? :) 13:27:16 ogamita`: depends - oktawave in production runs on 1TB ram, 16c/32t (maybe 32c/64t) xeons and custom PCI-Express storage 13:27:57 gleag: no no, insufficient information distribution is how you kill "market" and turn it into your personal fiefdom ;) 13:28:30 anyway, you need lots of customers before requiring that kind of performance 13:28:39 Sounds like Microsoftland and Oracledom. :) 13:29:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:29:47 I use that server for the IRC bouncer & my blog 13:29:47 Microserfdom and Oracland. 13:30:13 fe[nl]ix: more like cashflow than customers 13:30:16 and hosting pkhuong and attila_lendvai 13:30:26 fe[nl]ix: the 32GB quad-core Haswell one? :) 13:30:38 Blogs are very important these days. :) 13:31:04 the previous generation, a SandyBridge with 16GB of RAM 13:31:15 gleag: especially when hosted on lowest performance stuff while using slow storage ;) 13:31:15 but I'll move to the new one because it costs the same 13:31:51 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:01 *gleag* would like just a teeny tiny vserver for playing with Lisp web apps. 13:32:12 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:32:27 gleag: well, digitalocean is pretty cheap. 13:32:33 gleag: you can do that at home too. 13:32:50 The Internet is designed to be a meshed network. 13:33:08 ogamita`: Well, yes, but I'd be the only one able to access that with any kind of reliability. 13:33:25 asdl is quite reliable I find. 13:33:30 optic fiber even more. 13:33:52 I was thinking of some crowdourced lexicographic endeavors. 13:34:08 ogamita`: especially when the reliability is 0% because neither can be accessed within 20 kilometers without selling your kidney 13:34:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:36:10 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:42 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:37:17 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:bc32:4eda:d2e2:d5fb] has joined #lisp 13:37:47 p_l: I sense a business opportunity here. 13:38:19 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.60.223] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 ogamita`: You're a prospective kidney buyer? 13:38:43 p_l: I think I'd stick with the Germans on this one. 13:39:19 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-130.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:41 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:41:48 -!- Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 13:41:58 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.235.71] has joined #lisp 13:42:38 sdemarre [~serge@26.66-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:43:01 aluuu1 [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:43:21 -!- aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:45:45 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-lnihouendcncvjpx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:11 segv- [~mb@95-91-242-135-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:46:53 hi 13:47:18 please, is there a way to preventing libusb from compiling every time I load it? 13:47:52 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:48:00 Posterdati: Saving an image is not an option? 13:48:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:48:16 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:48:18 Posterdati: maybe a newer ASDF helps. 13:48:39 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 13:48:56 Xach: is it possible to update it via quicklisp? 13:49:04 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:09 antonv_ [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has joined #lisp 13:50:54 CL-USER> (asdf:asdf-version) 13:50:54 "2.26" 13:50:56 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-hveblxoiutftxlel] has joined #lisp 13:51:06 Posterdati: No. But the new ASDF comes with the latest SBCL. 13:51:24 mmmh so no debianpackage then 13:54:11 Xach: is it strange, never did recompiling every slime session... I had to reinstall quicklisp could be a .cache problem? 13:55:11 I recommend trying the latest ASDF to see if it still happens. 13:55:51 ok 13:57:55 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:58:36 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.60.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:58:54 -!- ogamita` [~t@77.104.4.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:55 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.28.180] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.28.180] has quit [Changing host] 13:59:55 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:00:38 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.12] has quit [] 14:00:58 ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has joined #lisp 14:02:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@26.66-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:02:31 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:05:02 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:05:38 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:22 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:25 s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:07:00 nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.151.210] has joined #lisp 14:07:19 [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:40 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:07:51 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:15 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:09:15 -!- eak_ [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:09:35 eak [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:49 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:29 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-194-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:14:45 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.184] has joined #lisp 14:15:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:14 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 14:17:11 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:16 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.] 14:17:42 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 14:20:21 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:21:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:00 alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:22:42 cycloid [~cycloid@cpe-24-28-84-76.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:09 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:54 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:24:33 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:21 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.72.66] has joined #lisp 14:25:47 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:54 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-215.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-215.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:25:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.235.71] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 14:28:02 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 14:33:24 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 14:34:21 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:25 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.235.71] has joined #lisp 14:36:34 tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 14:40:15 optikalmouse [~optikalmo@207-245-237-147.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:15 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:41:00 kmox83_ [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 _d3f [~gnu@79.172.193.111] has joined #lisp 14:41:35 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:42:11 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:31 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:42:31 -!- kmox83_ is now known as kmox83 14:42:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:14 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:48:11 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.151.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:19 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 14:48:41 k0001 [~k0001@host18.186-108-162.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:49:14 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:56:13 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:57:01 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-130.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:26 ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:06 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:50 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@69.3.174.98] has joined #lisp 15:03:08 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 15:03:34 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:18 sdemarre [~serge@26.66-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:16:59 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 15:18:20 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:19:18 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 15:21:05 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 motorhead [~manas@49.249.124.40] has joined #lisp 15:22:27 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.235.71] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:22:37 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:12 I'm planning to learn LISP out of curiousity 15:23:15 kanru` [~kanru@201.42.214.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 motorhead: best to find an itch to scratch and solve it with CL. 15:23:58 Wikipedia says its a family of languages..can anyone help understanding wt exactly lisp is..? 15:24:15 this channel is about common lisp, which is a programming language. 15:24:31 lisp nowadays seem to be a mixed bag containing Common Lisp, Emacs Lisp and Scheme, and here we talk about Common Lisp 15:24:34 motorhead: Common Lisp is the language usually referred to when saying "Lisp" 15:24:39 bike: how is common lisp different? 15:24:41 download SBCL or CCL and get started today ;-) 15:24:42 If you are curious, grab a textbook and follow along. 15:24:48 motorhead: Different from what? 15:24:50 loke: ohk thanks 15:24:56 Practical Common Lisp is freely available and not bad. 15:24:57 dim: clojure doesn't count? :) 15:24:58 motorhead: different from what 15:25:18 felideon: I don't know, might count yes 15:25:27 bike: nothing nevermind 15:25:28 but then picoLisp too 15:26:12 kmox83_ [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:26:17 dim: let's not get carried away, now :) 15:26:57 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:14 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:27:30 motorhead: It's standardized. ;-) 15:27:37 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:27:42 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:42 -!- kmox83_ is now known as kmox83 15:28:46 gleag: LISP happens to be a pre req for my course - AI 15:28:57 gleag: where should i start from? 15:29:33 motorhead: Seibel and Touretzky have their books on the web. 15:29:35 minion: gentle 15:29:36 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 15:29:59 Bike: please. Anyone with a minimal programming experience would die reading that book 15:30:09 (Well, all Lisp books are on the web avtually, but these two are there officially. :-)) 15:30:15 minion: pcl 15:30:15 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:30:31 I'd recommend that one 15:31:20 Cool thanks.. 15:31:28 motorhead: If you want to look at what Common Lisp code looks like, here's one of my files: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gdata/blob/master/src/spreadsheets.lisp 15:32:11 loke: Is lisp any similar to perl or python? 15:32:21 motorhead: Quite different 15:32:23 and much better 15:32:34 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yjouuxsmmerbdodu] has joined #lisp 15:32:35 much, much better. 15:32:40 My god! that looked greek! 15:32:47 and latin :P 15:33:01 they're similar in being programming languages, having side effects, text-based, i don't know what else you're thinking of 15:33:04 any quick tips guys? 15:33:35 motorhead: Yeah, start with Practical Common Lisp. If you have questions after starting reading that, you're welcome to as 15:33:37 ask 15:33:48 loke: sure 15:34:21 bike: is lisp a object oriented? 15:34:39 motorhead: It has the most complete object oreientation features of any language 15:34:54 motorhead: But the language isn't "object oriented" per se. It's multi-paradigm 15:34:57 it has an object system which is very good, but it's not "object oriented" as an overriding paradigmatic thing 15:35:04 You can develop "object oriented" if you want. Totally optional 15:35:15 you can see it in loke's code there, all the defclass and defmethod and so on. 15:35:19 in so far that it has objects and a system for creating classes and methods. 15:35:29 but it's all optional stuff that's there if you need it. :) 15:35:36 loke_erc`: have you ever read Gentle Intro? 15:35:38 -!- cycloid [~cycloid@cpe-24-28-84-76.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: cycloid] 15:35:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.252.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:35:58 felideon: Yes. I fell asleep. It's some 50 pages before the first code is written :-) 15:36:11 It's waaay to gentle :-) 15:36:20 a quality shared with such terribly boring gentle programming books as TAOCP 15:36:31 loke_erc`: when I was doing C#, I enjoyed it. 15:36:51 felideon: You can indeed enjoy it, but it invloves a lot of chapter-skipping :-) 15:37:11 Bike: TAOCP can be annoying to read, yes. 15:37:36 motorhead: anyway, when learning a language just try to take it as it is and write some code, rather than trying to categorize it as "object-oriented" or "functional" or whatever (imo) 15:38:02 motorhead: "object-oriented" is an extremely vague term (unless you're Alan Kay). 15:38:18 bike: Hmm..sure I'll keep that in mind 15:38:27 motorhead: just write some programs that do stuff you need to do in CL. 15:38:32 j_king: lol 15:38:39 if you get stuck and can't figure something out, ask here. :) 15:38:54 loke_erc`: i dont recall skipping a chapter at all 15:39:04 don't get all academic about it from the get-go. 15:39:22 Technically, Lisp has always had objects in the sense of values knowing their own type. Everything objecty sort of revolves around that. 15:39:45 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:18 So in a certain sense, it's impossible to program in Lisp without objects (unless one peeks and pokes raw memory or uses assembly functions or FFI). 15:40:41 motorhead: WHat programing languages do you know already? 15:41:08 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:bc32:4eda:d2e2:d5fb] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:42:14 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:42:35 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-hveblxoiutftxlel] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:19 loke: php js and c c++ 15:43:46 Nobody knows C++ 15:43:55 But many people know parts of C++ :) 15:44:30 gleag: that way I know nothing :P 15:45:25 motorhead: many of us do. Welcome to the path to enlightenment. :) 15:45:49 motorhead: JS is probably the closest one to Lisp of all those you named. 15:46:19 Save for the braindead arithmetics, lack of abstractions, strange typing rules etc. 15:46:47 gleag: haha ok 15:47:17 motorhead: Common Lisp is not different. That's what makes it different: it is common! 15:47:35 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:47:39 one last time...wt should start with Practical common lisp or general intro to lisp 15:47:40 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:47:41 ? 15:47:53 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 So you can take a program written in any lisp, and with very few tweaks or none, you can run it in a CL implementation. 15:48:03 ogamita: how long have u been programming in lisp?> 15:48:31 My first lisp program must have been written before 1996. 15:48:45 At that time, I didn't even know whether it was Scheme or Common Lisp! 15:48:54 ogamita: nice! 15:48:55 motorhead: PCL is a generaral intro to Lisp 15:49:01 "How long" is a misleading measure at best. 15:49:33 motorhead: if it's a prereq for AI, read Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp 15:49:46 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:53 The fact that I wrote my first program 26 years ago is misleading squared. :) 15:49:54 loke: i meant pcl or 'COMMON LISP: 15:49:55 A Gentle Introduction 15:49:55 to Symbolic Computation'? 15:50:13 ogamita: But probably after PCL? 15:50:15 Why not both? 15:50:37 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:4d90:9904:9ebe:5123] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 They're both available: read the first chapter of each and proceed with the most promising. 15:50:47 motorhead: I'd definitely recommend PCL. It's both an introduction and, if you choose to read all of it, enough to get you started in becoming a fully fledge "Lisp developer" 15:51:06 motorhead: PCL starts out with explaining why Lisp is good :-) 15:51:27 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:51:32 loke: thanks 15:51:33 There are also lectures on youtube about it. Somewhere there is one of me doing one :-) 15:52:00 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@69.3.174.98] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 15:52:00 loke: Oh! nice... 15:52:16 Well, I wrote my first program that got executed on 25 06 1976 15:52:19 ANother one is the authour of PCL doing one at Google 15:52:23 loke: ur a prof somewhere? 15:52:27 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@69.3.174.98] has joined #lisp 15:52:29 motorhead: No. :-) 15:52:41 motorhead: I work for a software vendor. Mostly with banks 15:53:15 ogamita: thats 16 year before i was born :P 15:53:23 You can see it by typing: telnet voyager.informatimago.com 8115 RET ch RET /bourg RET ap RET bour RET li RET RET 15:53:31 loke_erc`: There are your lectures on youtube about PCL or there are your lectures on youtube about why Lisp is good? 15:53:38 And it's #lisp related since that "server" is written in lisp :-) 15:53:40 ogamita: I was 3 at that time :-) 15:53:56 gleag: Well, let me see if I can find it. If I recall, the audio and video is pretty lousy... 15:54:15 All right, there is is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymDvW2Mvco 15:54:18 Haha! Nostalgia..must be good for u guys :D 15:54:22 loke_erc`: That's all right, I have a delousing spray handy. :) 15:54:56 gleag: There should be a link to the presentation as google docs as well in there 15:55:06 Beep beep...video download: initiated! 15:55:10 and the original authors of this language knew lisp and were somewhat inspired by it, but also strongly constrained by the target machine and requirements, so they didn't implement lisp :-( What a pity, for a few more bytes, I and thousands of other French students would have learned lisp in the 70's! 15:55:38 gleag: Anyway, that's me 15:55:39 :-) 15:55:56 I wish my university taught lisp and assembly instead of - yeah, you know it - java 15:56:53 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@69.3.174.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:57:24 Time machines were invented long ago. But their use is the most strongly policed thing of the universe. 15:57:40 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:57:55 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zmrwzdwociliagxt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:03:37 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:03:37 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 16:03:45 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.72.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:06 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.88.37] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:24 motorhead: Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NO83wZVT0A 16:06:28 gleag: thanks 16:08:39 one more thing, how is emacs related to lisp? 16:08:54 gleag: that's the one I was thinking of 16:09:26 motorhead: emacs was originally not related to lisp until it was rewritten in it. 16:09:58 gleag: since then, some versions of emacs officially called emacs are written in lisp, others are not. 16:10:14 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:10:19 *gleag* regrets the soliloquy. 16:10:23 gleag: that it? nothing like some of the commands in emacs are in lisp or anything? 16:10:45 motorhead: most commands in GNU Emacs are in Lisp. 16:10:58 motorhead: In GNU Emacs (the most common version of Emacs), commands are written in Emacs Lisp. Which is kinda like Common Lisp, but much more limited. 16:11:45 gleag: If you saw some Emacs Lisp code you'd be hard-pressed to see any differnece (until you learn the languages) 16:11:54 even then, it's possible to write code that'll run on both. 16:11:57 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:11 motorhead: There are also emacs-like editors that are not officially don't have emacs in their name, but do use emacs keybindings and are written in lisp (Hemlock, for example). 16:12:29 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 16:13:14 motorhead: So the Lisp versus Emacs landscape is really complicated. But most people who use some sort of Emacs use GNU Emacs, and the majority of GNU Emacs functionality is written in Emacs Lisp. 16:13:21 gleag: i don't use emacs...just a social thing. Many developers here are into emacs..trying to figure out why 16:13:48 motorhead: That's because they really love goo. 16:14:31 gleag: wts goo? 16:14:42 Emacs is also a very good tool for writing Common Lisp code (and it has an IRC client, which I happen to use right now) 16:14:50 motorhead: Oh, it's called slime in American English. :) 16:14:58 loke: nice! 16:15:16 gleag: Haha!! 16:15:23 tiglog [~tiglog@114.243.56.143] has joined #lisp 16:15:24 emacs is neat. it's more like a lisp-derivative that has a text-editor built into the system. 16:15:28 -!- kanru` [~kanru@201.42.214.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:15:48 *j_king* wonders that happened to tromey's project to port it to CL 16:16:05 There are more emacsen written in Common Lisp than in emacs lisp. 16:16:13 Hemlock, Drei, Climacs, etc. 16:16:17 j_king: GNU Emacs is being ported to Scheme, I think. 16:16:23 Climacs? 16:16:23 Emacs is too large to port whole. 16:16:32 hi mikaelj :) 16:16:36 hi fe[nl]ix :) 16:16:38 You could embed emacs lisp within the new language, I guess. 16:16:50 You better get used to one of those, and start to work on improving them, because the day GNU emacs is in scheme 16:16:50 gleag: there is one such effort. http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 16:17:02 mikaelj: how's that Swedish sun ? 16:17:08 ggole: The plan is to compile Emacs Lisp into Guile VM bytecode. ;-) 16:17:10 fe[nl]ix, oh, it's lovely still. :) 16:17:23 meh, scheme. :p 16:17:26 CL 16:17:40 j_king: Still better than ELisp. ;-) 16:17:41 gleag: so I understand, but that stretches the meaning of 'port to Scheme' a bit. 16:18:00 This is all going over my head! To keep things simple I learn common lisp and stick to my Sublime Text :p 16:18:05 If emacs lisp retains its current (strange) semantics, it won't be a port so much as a reimplementation. 16:18:16 ggole: The parts witl be probably progressively replaced, with the devs trying to have the whole thing working at all times. 16:18:21 gleag: elisp is what it is. the common lisp compatibility package makes it useable. but its the package ecosystem that is killer for me atm 16:18:26 motorhead: Well, learning Emacs and using SLIME is part of what makes the environment great 16:18:58 I have a hard time believing it can all be replaced. There's well over a million lines of elisp in emacs, plus there's all the third party junk. 16:19:00 j_king: You don't like the CL packages? 16:19:03 motorhead, that will not be a very good showcase of Lisp. 16:19:27 ggole: There's a good chance that the replaced code will be quite a bit smaller anyway. 16:19:44 gleag: oh I do. there's a lot I like in emacs. it would be nicer if I could just use CL though. the context switches hurt my brain sometimes. 16:19:51 I'm sure, but it would be a crazy amount of work. 16:19:52 Aramur [~arare@213.Red-79-156-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:00 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:05 mikalj, things wouldn't get messy if i try to use emacs and learn common lisp i hope? 16:20:26 ggole: The whole GNU Emacs thingy was a crazy amount of work in the first place, and yet it exists. :) 16:20:27 gleag: I just meant that the elisp package ecosystem is awesome. marmalade, etc. 16:20:47 Ah. 16:20:55 Well, that effort happened over multiple decades, and compatibility was kept over fair stretches of that time. 16:21:17 motorhead, Lisp as a whole will probably make more sense if you use SLIME. with quicklisp, it's very easy to setup. 16:21:38 ggole: I assume they are intent on continuing along the same lines. 16:21:57 mikaelj, wts slime? I googled, din get the right results.. 16:21:58 -!- optikalmouse [~optikalmo@207-245-237-147.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:22:07 KingNato_ [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:22:08 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:13 rtoym_ [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 16:22:17 Right. It's a bit hard to reconcile that with the idea of a port to Scheme, that's all. 16:22:19 sant0sh [~santosh@117.192.71.88] has joined #lisp 16:22:21 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:24 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 motorhead, an IDE. 16:23:26 -!- KingNato [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:38 mikaelj,trying it.. 16:23:51 Maybe it would be better to just start over and do something new, but based on the same ideals. 16:24:06 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:24:07 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:08 -!- rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 16:25:22 I hope that dynamic scoping isn't one of them. :) 16:25:28 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 16:25:32 Hah! 16:25:39 -!- ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:52 Actually, emacs has (optional) lexical scope now 16:25:57 *emacs lisp 16:26:28 Which is half crazy, half awesome. 16:27:30 optikalmouse [~optikalmo@207-245-237-147.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:52 skaby [~user@c-67-190-238-152.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:52 -!- gozes [~gozes@unaffiliated/gozes] has left #lisp 16:32:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.188.33] has joined #lisp 16:32:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.188.33] has quit [Changing host] 16:32:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:33:10 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:04 -!- codeburg [~folker@194.6.195.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:54 nipra [~nipra@122.177.195.55] has joined #lisp 16:40:01 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.38.153.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:06 -!- tiglog [~tiglog@114.243.56.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:19 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@88-149-143-15.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:57 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:22 Hello all. 16:46:04 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:46:04 -!- sdemarre [~serge@26.66-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:46:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 ggole: common lisp has optional dynamic scope... 16:47:23 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:48:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:48:58 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 Sure: the situation there is a bit different though. 16:49:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:49:30 In emacs lisp, you can change the semantics of let-bound variables between lexical and dynamic by setting a variable. 16:49:51 -!- sant0sh [~santosh@117.192.71.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:52:23 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:52:32 That sounds vaguely horrifying, from a maintenance perspective. 16:53:21 nyef: That's OK. You can control it with a comment on the first line of the file, too. 16:53:26 :-) 16:53:34 Not as horrifying as pervasive dynamic scope. 16:53:37 That sounds EVEN MORE horrifying. (-: 16:53:55 No, because at least with pervasive dynamic scope you know what the semantics are. 16:54:20 The semantics suck, but you know what they are. 16:54:30 You should know what the semantics are in elisp. 16:55:06 If there isn't a (setq lexical-binding t) in the file (or the equivalent comment), you get vanilla elisp 16:55:30 (It's not a global setting.) 16:56:23 But some maniac put the (setq lexical-binding t) about three screens down from the top of the file, I don't know if there's a comment at the top, and I'm busy down here in a stupidly-long function at the end of the file. I'm supposed to KNOW this stuff offhand? 16:57:10 A fair complaint. 16:57:13 Even without the maniac hiding the setq, and it being at the top of the file, I'm STILL hosed. 16:58:10 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.105] has joined #lisp 16:58:33 See, that's not vague at all. You're *concretely* horrified. 16:58:52 Yes, because now I've *thought* about it. 16:58:55 nyef: (shadow nil) (defvar nil cl:t) 16:59:34 well, people rarely do that, though 16:59:53 stassats: Yes, yes. Maniacs can hide anywhere. But even without the maniac, my point still holds. 16:59:57 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:00 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:00:13 my point is, why would you use emacs lisp willingly? 17:00:43 stassats: If you are writing a mode for emacs perhaps? 17:01:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 17:01:46 cory786 [~cory@PAT96.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 17:02:41 loke_erc`: i do not use gnu emacs willingly! 17:02:55 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:10 stassats: What do you use? 17:03:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:4d90:9904:9ebe:5123] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 17:03:20 gnu emacs unwillingly 17:03:26 Ok :-) 17:03:35 Least worst choice? 17:04:05 So, I was writing a test case for something, and thought that I wanted to have a construct such as ASSERT-REACHED to go with my ASSERT-NOTREACHED. It turned out that I didn't in this instance, but how would you go about implementing ASSERT-REACHED, preferably without using any codewalker other than the compiler? 17:04:37 (setf reached t)? 17:05:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:05:30 Well, no, the point is to be able to just throw any number of (ASSERT-REACHED) forms into a test case, and it will fail if it reaches the end of execution and any of them haven't been reached. 17:05:51 With all of the bookkeeping done "behind the scenes", as it were. 17:06:09 nyef: You macrolet assert-reached and let the macro function track all calls to it so that they can be checked after the form 17:06:43 sant0sh [~santosh@117.213.248.63] has joined #lisp 17:07:00 nyef: (let (reached) (unwind-protect (setf reached t) (assert reached))) 17:07:06 -!- cdan [~cdan@mail.savatech.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:47 loke_erc`: What's the mechanism for communicating from the macrolet to some outer context? 17:08:52 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:08:53 and through what loke_erc` said 17:09:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-156.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:09:19 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 17:09:20 Seems you'd need it to side effect. 17:09:21 the whole body is wrapped in the unwind-protect 17:09:23 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 17:09:25 mikeit [~mikeit@net-93-65-150-84.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:09:27 nyef: a dynamically bound variable in the compiler context 17:09:32 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 17:09:33 -!- motorhead [~manas@49.249.124.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:50 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:13:50 stassats: doesn't that only "count" one reached form? 17:14:26 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:17:06 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:17:18 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:19:07 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:20:25 -!- aluuu1 [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:59 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:21:06 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 17:22:55 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yjouuxsmmerbdodu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:08 -!- Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:27:27 smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:31 -!- sant0sh [~santosh@117.213.248.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:29:17 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-37-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:30:29 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:32:31 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@2-229-13-115.ip194.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32:38 Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:38 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 17:33:54 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:10 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 17:34:17 ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:35:02 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:15 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ejsuiiyzyqoziajl] has joined #lisp 17:36:19 minion: memo for motorhead: you must take the habit of prefix all your google search with: common lisp. Googling for common lisp slime gives excellent results. 17:36:20 Remembered. I'll tell motorhead when he/she/it next speaks. 17:36:42 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:23 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:47 foeniks [~fevon@p57A5C212.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:59 ckoch786___S [~user@PAT96.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 17:40:02 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:28 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-xtadhmjgqxhxuupi] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:40:50 ya, don't use single word searches in google.... 17:41:16 combine always upto 3 or so but minimum 2 is always better! 17:41:38 you get much more relevant results that way.... 17:43:18 who needs google when there's #lisp 17:43:33 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-173-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:44:21 cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-42-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:42 -!- ckoch786___S 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error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:42 ((void (*) (void))my_pointer)(); is a c code that casts my_pointer to a function pointer that takes no arguments and returns void then call the function that my_pointer points to. 22:53:10 now the tough question: what would be the lisp equivalent of that ? 22:53:22 (funcall my_pointer) 22:53:27 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 22:53:48 i mean, you're doing that with a char* or some shit, aren't you? You realize that's not actually defined to work in C? 22:53:50 Bike: impossible to be that simple 22:53:57 What do you mean. 22:54:01 That is what funcall does. 22:54:29 but funcall works on pointers? 22:54:36 Lisp doesn't have pointers. 22:55:07 Though funcall does work on symbols, which can be used to refer to functions indirectly. 22:55:37 <|3b|> cffi:foreign-funcall, not funcall 22:55:44 <|3b|> cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer, not funcall 22:55:45 (foreign-funcall-pointer 22:55:57 <|3b|> cffi pointers don't have types 22:57:50 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:58:07 -!- cycloid [~cycloid@cpe-24-28-84-76.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: cycloid] 22:58:24 agr [~agr@189.38.143.46] has joined #lisp 22:58:25 -!- agr [~agr@189.38.143.46] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:39 cycloid [~cycloid@cpe-24-28-84-76.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:51 |3b|: but in c with void... works however: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138944 23:02:13 access violation? is the page marked executable? 23:02:32 *|3b|* isn't sure why you expect 184 to be a valid function 23:02:45 davazp [~user@48.Red-79-150-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:06 <|3b|> or more likely 3-7 bytes of 0 then 184 (or is it 184 then 3-7 bytes of 0?) 23:03:12 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:03:35 *|3b|* is too lazy to remember which endianness you are probably using, and which would mean which order 23:04:33 <|3b|> your POINTER definition is equivalent to C int pointer[1] = {184}; if i read it right 23:04:46 <|3b|> ah, never mind 23:04:47 yes indeed 23:05:07 <|3b|> it is int pointer[]={184,60,...} 23:05:17 <|3b|> (which still has a bunch of 0 bytes you probably don't want) 23:05:43 equivalent to this exactly: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138944#1 23:06:10 <|3b|> no, int code[] = ...; not char code[] = ...; 23:06:35 |3b|: yes there are many 0s. 23:07:16 <|3b|> i mean the 0 in the high-order bytes of the ints, not just the ones you entered in the initial-contents array 23:07:46 <|3b|> in case it isn't clear yet, i'm saying use :char instead of :int in the foreign-alloc 23:08:12 will try, but probably won't be accepted 23:08:27 <|3b|> probably not, but at least it will match the C code 23:08:50 <|3b|> instead of allocating 25 x 32 or 64 bit ints and initializing them with 8-bit values 23:09:32 *francogrex* is getting a headache 23:10:24 it's not hard. the C code is allocating an array of octets. the lisp code is allocating an array of words (32 bits or whatever) 23:11:20 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317559.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:13:47 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.47.143] has joined #lisp 23:14:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:43 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:18:46 -!- smazga [~Adium@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:26 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:39 -!- antonv_ [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:20:47 ckoch786__ [~user@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-49.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:26:19 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:12 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:31:45 Bike: aha, an array of octets! then that's what is needed a conversion to octets 23:32:08 well, it's like 3b said, you're allocating an array of ints 23:32:11 and ints aren't... octets. 23:32:20 (i mean, probably) 23:32:24 so how can I convert them 23:32:44 allocate an array of chars? 23:33:13 convert the integers to chars by code-char then? 23:33:28 no. what, no 23:33:31 C chars, not characters 23:34:09 but foreign-alloc won't allow it 23:34:47 you sure? 23:34:58 like foreign-alloc :char :initial-contents #(184 ...) 23:35:01 i mean, your lisp's characters probably aren't ascii-only anyway. 23:35:07 yes, like that. have you tried? 23:35:18 let me try again 23:35:33 confused now and tired 23:35:46 cffi even refers to char as an "integer type" in its docs (as well it should) 23:36:06 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:35 debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR: The value 184 is not of type (SIGNED-BYTE 8) ... 23:36:40 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:43 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:36:52 use unsigned-char then 23:37:48 Bike you're beautiful 23:38:01 yes 23:38:28 yes it works... but disappointingly after many hours francogrex discovers that his code doesn't do anything useful whatsoever 23:38:33 at least it works 23:38:34 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:38 -!- davazp [~user@48.Red-79-150-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:52 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:41:29 -!- cycloid [~cycloid@cpe-24-28-84-76.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: sayonara] 23:41:50 see you all. bye 23:41:55 -!- francogrex [~user@239.163-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:44:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:30 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 23:45:13 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.150.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:46:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:48 oudeis [~oudeis@5.22.128.11] has joined #lisp 23:50:16 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:50:48 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:52:40 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@5.22.128.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52:44 victor__ [~victor.lo@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:48 nialo- [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:29 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat99.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 23:56:38 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:57:58 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-67-150-3.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp