00:03:33 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:09 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:49 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:10 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 00:05:24 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:14 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:09:31 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-151-67.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:52 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:32 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 00:12:53 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 00:23:52 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:24:06 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:07 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:47 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:26:30 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-215-137.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:25 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-215-137.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:52 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:11 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 00:30:17 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:31 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-215-137.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:33 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 00:30:46 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-215-137.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:55 do people generally use CAR/CDR or FIRST/REST? 00:31:38 desophos: depends on what one is doing 00:31:50 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:31 FIRST/REST are more descriptive for general list manipulation 00:32:55 Aren't they synonyms? 00:33:07 but if you are mucking with list structure at a more abstract or lower level, then CAR/CDR would be preferrable 00:33:08 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 00:33:15 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Client Quit] 00:33:19 the Lisp system doesn't care which you use 00:33:28 it's the programmer intent that is the difference 00:33:51 i see, thanks 00:33:58 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:27 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 00:36:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:37:40 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:37:54 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:52 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:48:05 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-214-209.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 00:48:20 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:52 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:52:12 -!- jhj [~jhj@unaffiliated/jhj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:53:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:00:45 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 01:00:51 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 01:02:30 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:06 -!- harish [~harish@119.56.122.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:03:40 desophos: I use CAR/CDR when working with ALISTs, FIRST/REST otherwise. 01:09:29 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:19 -!- davazp [~user@80.31.10.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:51 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:14:15 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:24 Hum, I'm a little confused about `progv' and `eval'. Why this eval normally `(progv '(a b c) '(+ 4 2) (eval '(funcall a b c))) => 6' but `(progv '(a b c) '(+ 4 2) (eval '(a b c)))' doesn't? 01:17:04 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 01:18:27 progv binds in the variable namespace, not the function namespace 01:19:09 Bike: Ah. 01:19:16 Bike: Thanks. 01:22:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:22:15 LiamH [~none@96.231.217.193] has joined #lisp 01:25:51 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:05 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:22 milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 01:27:26 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:29:07 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:07 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:34 tinayu [~user@218.246.107.87] has joined #lisp 01:33:34 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 01:34:08 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 01:34:37 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-214-209.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 01:34:43 harish [~harish@119.234.134.207] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.75.25] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 01:37:28 p_l: https://github.com/lispm/opengenera <-- oh look, *of course* I find it after I've spent 2 days setting OpenGenera up 01:40:28 I wonder if I could get some automation stuff to build a genera host 01:40:32 james111111 [~james1111@173-26-0-118.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:00 lol, it actually uses Chef ;D 01:41:27 tinayu` [~user@218.246.107.87] has joined #lisp 01:41:36 -!- tinayu [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:41:36 -!- james111111 [~james1111@173-26-0-118.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 01:48:10 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:50:39 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:16 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.134.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:51:35 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 01:52:01 tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has joined #lisp 01:53:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:53:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:55:01 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:55:17 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:48 -!- tinayu` [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:59:56 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:26 lisp makes me feel like a wizard 02:00:45 especially emacs+lisp 02:00:50 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:01:29 Do you have a pointy hat? 02:02:02 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:02:24 not yet 02:02:32 aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:02:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:50 -!- aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:06:06 Amateur :) 02:07:26 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:08:33 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:11:41 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:42 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:17:10 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:20:41 haha 02:20:52 *p_l* plans on getting a cape, or at least a mantle 02:22:43 You've already got the pointy skull, so you're well ahead. 02:23:18 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vcayyrddkpajamlg] has joined #lisp 02:23:43 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-214-209.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:25:07 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@2a01:198:35a::101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:25:33 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:40 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 02:27:20 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:00 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:29:27 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:32:07 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:33:48 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:58 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:34:39 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:38:39 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:39:48 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:03 tesuji_ [~tesuji@mnhm-4d010e2f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:02 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:19 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 02:45:17 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:46:56 Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.214] has joined #lisp 02:49:06 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:50:22 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:21 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:05 is anyone here familiar with the Babel2 library? 02:55:52 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:56:38 desophos: babel2? 02:56:49 anyway, do you have an actualy question? 02:57:18 ha 02:57:22 no, just wanted to see if i'll be able to get help in a couple months 02:57:27 wrong chan sorry 02:58:14 What? I don't even... 02:58:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:59:03 a couple weeks if i catch on to lisp soon enough 02:59:16 sorry, being too pre-emptive 02:59:31 Whatever. You don't even know if you're going to need help, and even then, you don't know what you need help with, and even then you don't even know if the same people will be online, and even then you don't even know if the same people won't have tried it./ 02:59:38 Chat4059 [~Chat4059@app7.chatmosphere.org] has joined #lisp 02:59:39 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:59:40 yup :) 02:59:52 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:11 Why do you even ask, especially if you're not even using Lisp? 03:00:20 Don't you have more pressing questions? 03:01:13 Wtf 03:01:41 -!- Chat4059 [~Chat4059@app7.chatmosphere.org] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:08 well, another reason i asked is to identify someone with whom i could possibly discuss my thesis 03:02:26 i wasn't planning on going into the details on this channel 03:04:24 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@180.189.170.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:04:58 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:05:50 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:27 babel2 is not well-known 03:06:35 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:25 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:42 banannagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:44 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:54 -!- banannagram is now known as bananagram 03:09:22 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-151-67.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:10:51 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:51 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:18:22 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:52 there are plenty of options if you want to do character set conversion 03:19:15 If you want completeness, cl-iconv is probably the most complete 03:21:51 Xach: i know, that's why i wasn't expecting to find anyone 03:22:08 loke: character set conversion? 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Somehow, the software figures out if it has been copied to a different machine and refuses to work. 04:41:18 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:41:56 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:25 sometimes there are available "signatures" of the running machine. processor type, serial numbers, that sort of thing. 04:43:44 the ethernet interface's mac address is most commonly used to node-lock software 04:44:34 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:09 Bike, H4ns: ah, thanks. 04:46:56 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:47:14 -!- scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 04:47:35 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317559.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:47:52 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined 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-!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:20:28 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:21:08 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:26 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01134a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:27 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:01 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:26:11 JavaDog [~JavaDog@50.7.1.2] has joined #lisp 06:26:45 sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:26:55 Hi all, I have a probably very simple question... 06:27:51 bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:06 I hate to be that guy asking for homework help, but OOP is really my thing and this is driving me insane. Here's what I have: http://pastebin.com/Bnid7uFU 06:28:38 inlist will look like this: ((ENGL 4670) (ITIS 4162) (ENGR 3105) (BUSN 4670)) 06:29:02 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:29:08 I get: Error: `(2116)' is not of the expected type `REAL' [condition type: TYPE-ERROR] 06:29:31 JavaDog: what does that have to do with OOP? 06:29:38 Oh, nothing 06:29:45 I was just stating that I'm most familiar with OOP 06:29:49 I'm new to this style 06:29:58 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 06:30:05 this isn't really different from OOP. 06:30:24 Allegro sucks. 06:30:35 Why doesn't it even highlight syntax? 06:30:50 OOP is really about procedural abstraction and separating interface and implementation interfaces. 06:30:54 we can agree on that. 06:31:13 Anyway, unrelated 06:31:15 not with what zhivago said. 06:31:51 I tried using this: (if (>= (parse-integer (last (nth x inlist))) 3000) 06:32:11 but that just gave me: Error: `(2116)' is not of the expected type `STRING' [condition type: TYPE-ERROR] 06:32:20 JavaDog: I'm really not sure about providing you with homework help here. Hasn't your professer covered the basics of cons cells? 06:32:22 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:32:33 This is an online class 06:32:38 Perhaps you want (first (last ...))? 06:33:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:12 I tried that as well 06:33:14 last gives you a list containing the last element, not the last element. 06:33:23 And what exciting error did you get for that? 06:33:36 Really? In the notes it says exactly the opposite: that it returns the last element itself 06:34:05 you may have taken notes wrong, or the professor might be wrong. 06:34:17 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm 06:34:17 They're powerpoint slides from the prof 06:34:27 Use the hyperspec :) 06:34:45 JavaDog: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm can you repeat to me what "description" says? 06:35:07 and perhaps read a few of the examples. 06:35:23 ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:36 Okay, so I need to get that element out of its list 06:35:44 Or just never make a list out of it in the first place 06:35:58 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:36:06 well you're receiving a list as an argument. It's already pretty bizarre that you're iterating over the list the way you are. 06:36:16 it's a very... C-like loop. 06:36:32 I'm mostly an android/java guy and this is the first homework assignment for this class 06:36:42 do your best! 06:36:47 That's what I mean when I say I'm new to this 06:36:51 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:01 Learning new languages is a valuable skill. 06:37:10 I find Java so incredibly hard, I simply can't handle it. 06:37:13 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:16 or at least that's what I tell prospective employers. 06:37:36 My job is teaching java to people 06:37:52 stay away from me, I like my Java-virginity. 06:38:04 System.out.println("no!"); 06:38:30 anyway, why are you using parse-integer, anyway? 06:38:47 just checking, but you realize that inlist is a linked list, right? 06:38:56 Because I figured it was interpreting that as a string 06:39:04 why did you figure that? 06:39:16 Because it said it wasn't of type "real" 06:39:35 Lisp is strongly typed, it doesn't pull off the type-coercion shenanigans you'll see in Perl/JS/PHP. 06:39:49 So it must have been some other type... and since it was in a list with some other strings, maybe it would be a string too? 06:39:57 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:40:12 there are no strings in the list you showed us, by the way. 06:40:23 What does "ITIS" become, then? 06:40:34 it doesn't become anything. It's a symbol. 06:40:40 which is a kind of lisp object. 06:40:46 strings are a different data type. 06:40:59 Why would I ever want that 06:41:23 It's almost like a string, but utterly useless 06:41:23 symbols are very useful 06:41:35 they're like strings, but more useful. 06:41:42 for example, they can be used to name functions. 06:42:16 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:24 or they can be used as enums 06:42:30 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 06:42:38 Well, that aside, how do I get this thing out of a list 06:42:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:46 they're handy, first-class identifiers that are human-readable, yet not strings. 06:42:57 JavaDog: I think that part is between you and your class nites. 06:43:22 but needless to say, you're receiving a list as input, and the list is composed of other lists, symbols, and numbers. 06:43:24 Well, I see here that I can maybe use CAR to get the element 06:43:24 if thata helps. 06:43:40 CAR will get you the CAR of a cons cell. 06:43:45 CDR will get you the CDR of a cons cell. 06:43:52 cdan [~cdan@mail.savatech.ro] has joined #lisp 06:44:05 But is there a better way than (if (>= (car (last (nth x inlist))) 3000) 06:44:10 because that's hella messy 06:44:59 it depends 06:45:01 Oh right, there are all those horrible caaaddddddddr commands 06:45:14 I would probably start by not using dotimes to iterate over a list. 06:45:24 Why not? It works 06:45:25 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-176-124.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:45:31 I know you're probably used to doing loops that way, but that's really quite an awful way to do it. 06:45:46 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-199-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:46:08 I'll learn the conventions after I have the basic stuff down 06:46:09 you could, for example, use dolist if you wanted to take a baby step. 06:46:42 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.247.65] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 06:46:46 I *could* write a recursive function and pass the CDR of the current cell until that returns nil 06:46:46 well, you were complaining about your code being a bit messy, I'm just telling you ways you might address it. 06:46:52 but who cares 06:46:58 nah, we don't really do recursion in CL all that much. 06:47:08 clhs dolist 06:47:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 06:47:12 look at that page, please 06:47:37 Ah, well that would have been a useful thing, which was conveniently excluded from the class notes 06:47:38 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:47:53 why anyone would teach you dotimes for iteration is beyond me. 06:47:53 I think she wants me to do it the way I'm doing it 06:48:21 I noticed the powerpoint is also full of spelling and parenthetical errors 06:48:25 JavaDog: not only you can use first, second, third in CL but you can also define your own accessors to communicate intent to avoid using caddr, 06:48:38 there's also (loop for (x y) in somelist do (print x) (print y)) 06:48:50 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:5147:31b:69ad:6b78] has joined #lisp 06:49:01 __quasi [~quasi@117.195.39.161] has joined #lisp 06:49:10 but you're probably not allowed to use LOOP because that would make your life too easy. 06:49:33 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 06:49:40 Yeah nothing about any "loop" was mentioned either 06:49:45 "if" was also excluded 06:49:58 but I looked that shit up because... I need my if 06:50:06 JavaDog: god, a hate teachers. 06:50:19 u 06:50:20 JavaDog: you can use AND instead of IF 06:50:23 I wouldn't use if here. 06:50:43 or ah, but a 06:50:49 I would use when 06:50:49 *but not 06:51:05 All that "when" and "unless" stuff is too foreign to me right now 06:51:13 If seems to serve my purpose well 06:51:17 JavaDog: also I should probably point out that your (setq result ()) is actually invalid CL. 06:51:32 but may appear to work for the most part, in most implementations. 06:51:43 Would I be fine removing that line? 06:51:46 I wasn't sure 06:51:57 no, I mean, you can't just setq a variable that doesn't exist. 06:52:02 In java and c++ you actually have to declare things 06:52:06 Yeah, how the hell do I declare it 06:52:09 That's what I wanted 06:52:12 you have to declare things in Lisp, too. 06:52:16 you use LET for that 06:52:22 oh no, but let is so ugly 06:52:28 I'm so sorry. 06:53:02 -!- ttm is now known as The_third_man 06:53:05 ur sorry because "let is so ugly"? 06:53:26 be gentle on the man, his aesthetic sensibilities have suffered a serious blow. 06:53:37 *JuanDaugherty* is srs 06:54:03 I'm sorry that JavaDog's feelings were hurt by let's ugly mug. 06:54:03 I didn't want to get into it, but 06:55:09 Why is the convention in this language 06:55:17 to not put parentheses on their own lines, EVER 06:55:26 That's just horrific 06:55:41 Because it's horrific to have 30 lines of one parentheses each? 06:55:49 JavaDog: We'd say the opposite. Why do you want to waste lines that adds no sematic value? 06:55:50 "Never put parentheses all by themselves on lines like a C++/Java brace. Do not be afraid to pile up parentheses at the end of a line." 06:55:51 really? I find it horrifying any other way. I don't really see the parentheses, myself. 06:55:54 every computing culture has its' folk ways 06:56:11 Think of it like python's indentation. 06:56:27 python can eat a bag of pythons 06:56:30 there are people who line up parens in lisp and they're considered, as you say, ugly 06:56:49 C style braces are holy and righteous 06:57:00 JavaDog: do you approach every new language you learn by wondering why it's not Java? 06:57:01 there's absolutely nothing but lisp weenie contempt preventing you from doing so 06:57:20 sykopomp: yes 06:57:23 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:57:24 but a whole lot of it so get ready 06:57:34 JavaDog: perhaps you should stop. 06:57:54 by stop I mean, either trying to do that, or trying to learn anything new. 06:57:58 because it does not help you. 06:58:11 and frankly, it's obnoxious to show up in here with that attitude. 06:58:20 specially when there's folks trying to help you, yes? 06:58:32 snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:34 I didn't show up here with that attitude 06:58:39 Look at my first messages 06:58:45 if you would be cosmopolitan you have to accept quaint folkways as such 06:59:07 JavaDog: my answer to the last actual technical question you asked remains the same. 06:59:15 let is how you address the issue. It's *the* way. 06:59:20 I'm thankful for your help, but I'm trying to stress that I am not interested in, and really do not currently have time for learning the nuances of lisp conventions at the moment 06:59:25 you can use &aux to reduce nesting, but it changes nothing. 06:59:48 let is how you declare variables, and lexical variable declarations are always explicitly scoped in Common Lisp. 07:00:00 that is one angle you could take to appreciating how LET works. 07:00:05 That's fine. I was referring to loop styles 07:00:26 But I have another question, then 07:00:31 if you have no time to do loops better, don't complain when yours don't work, or when your code becomes too complicated because of them. 07:00:48 If I'm going to declare that "result" list with let, what do I initialize it with? 07:00:56 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:00:57 Can I just initialize it as ()? 07:01:09 yes, that is fine. 07:02:12 you can even do (let (result) (loop .... (push x result)) (print (nreverse result))) 07:04:57 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:01 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:06:48 Okay, so why does this: http://pastebin.com/nsG8285L 07:07:00 Give me "Error: attempt to call `X' which is an undefined function." 07:07:55 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 Oh wait, I put that in the wrong place 07:08:23 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:08:40 there is a missing ) somewhere in your let statement ;) 07:08:52 Yeah, I just noticed it was off 07:09:12 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 07:09:39 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:41 you could write: (let (result (x 0)) ...) 07:10:39 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 07:10:54 I'm gonna share this slide with you: http://i.imgur.com/HxnQprZ.png 07:11:08 Her parentheses are wrong 07:11:10 in both 07:11:41 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:47 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-wqdfltknraefprom] has joined #lisp 07:12:20 ah, and the (x 0) binding os obsolete.... (dotimes (x ....)) does that for you already. 07:12:51 Yeah I only declared it because it was yelling at me about X being undefined 07:12:57 but I guess it wasn't actually that 07:13:07 yes, that slide is wrong, there is the ) missing. 07:13:26 anyway, I'll do your homework for you in idiomatic CL because I want to go to bed: (defun find-upper-level-courses (inlist) (remove 3000 inlist :key #'cadr :test #'>=)) 07:13:31 *sykopomp* -> out 07:14:08 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has left #lisp 07:14:19 oleo_ [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has joined #lisp 07:14:19 sykopomp: :-) 07:14:19 Sadly this is only like 1/10 of my homework 07:14:25 But thanks I guess 07:14:36 Even though I can't turn that in :p 07:14:38 that's not sad, that means plenty of things left to learn 07:14:49 It's sad because I also want to go to bed 07:15:01 It's 3am 07:15:10 then just go, you won't be able to do proper work without your share of sleeping anyways 07:15:32 Nah, I still have a couple days to do this but I at least want to get the loop the way it apparently should be 07:15:39 Because this is working now, otherwise 07:16:07 lisp is mega great, worked my way through half a lisp book today 07:16:24 i think i'm going thtir-crathy though 07:16:34 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:16:41 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 07:17:30 lisp rules, java drools, take that JavaDog 07:17:46 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:52 java is pretty great 07:17:55 like, humans can actually read it 07:18:03 and parentheses are used only when you need them 07:18:04 it's nice 07:18:07 so can dogs apparently 07:18:18 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:18:25 Well there's a story behind that name :p 07:18:27 Waahh... please no language war java v. lisp ;) *G* 07:18:47 I have to say that I've never seen G as the nose in an emoticon before 07:18:50 but it's quite fitting 07:19:27 Anyway, the story is that I'm a furry 07:19:31 best story of all time, I know 07:19:33 haha 07:19:35 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:59 [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:31 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:21:25 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:24:50 -!- daniel-s_ [~daniel-s@2001:388:608c:4c40:f9d8:3bf9:361a:1c6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:26:08 i'm afraid all the lisp is going to leak out of my brain while i sleep 07:26:41 All I can think of when I see "defun" is that Lisp is de-funning my life, much in the same way that one might de-claw a cat. 07:27:30 pfffft 07:27:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:28:10 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 07:28:19 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:45 kanru` [~kanru@201.42.214.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:47 -!- kanru` [~kanru@201.42.214.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:18 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:5147:31b:69ad:6b78] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 07:30:42 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:52 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 07:33:39 clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 07:33:40 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:00 maybe you need to understand what lisp is about before making your opinion 07:35:15 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:20 I can always just change my opinion later 07:35:31 keep it to yourself till then? 07:35:43 I guess 07:36:36 JavaDog: You should count the number of parens in C, Java and Lisp and you'll notice that it's pretty similar actually. 07:36:42 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 at least for small functions 07:37:57 Might be better off comparing the number of semicolons * 2 07:38:00 and considering you need more code to get something done in Java I think Lisp wins in the end :) 07:38:20 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:24 Not necessarily... the standard library in java has a lot of tools to make things really quick 07:38:37 JavaDog: and you don't think the Lisp libraries have that? 07:38:46 Probably not to the same degree 07:38:50 and that's probably a good thing 07:38:52 Try doing XPath on Java vs. Lisp and then tell me Java is easier :-) 07:39:05 (and I say that as a somewhat of a Java expert :-) ) 07:39:11 yep, but try actually _writing_ code in Java instead of just calling library functions in a sequence 07:39:44 this discussion is not going anywhere, guys 07:40:13 jdz: Why should it? 07:40:38 I'm at work, and it's either following this senseless discussion, or reading up on how to do GSSAPI Authentication in OpenLDAP. 07:41:07 about semicolons, JavaDog, can you explain what's the difference between a statement, an instruction and an expression in Java and why should the programmer care about that? 07:41:24 No 07:41:41 then you should be happy that this question is made irrelevant by lisp 07:41:56 But I like the c/java syntax 07:42:12 I bet it's the only one you know and you're just used to it 07:42:35 javascript is one of the closer things to lisp with c/java syntax 07:42:37 could you list languages you're been using seriously enough that have a different syntax? 07:42:48 Most of my experience is in java/android, javascript, php 07:42:55 So not really 07:43:01 ok so lisp is the first time you see something different 07:43:07 get used to it, think about it later 07:43:13 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 07:43:21 time to get back actually writing code for you I guess, or maybe to go to sleep 07:43:57 THink about it this way, if all you've ever seen are brunettes, then seeing a blonde can be a bit jarring. I'm sure you'll grow to enjoy them too. :-) 07:44:19 if you want to see quite different syntax, you might have a look at J, APL, Erlang, haskell, ocaml, SQL, awk and plenty more 07:44:30 Oh, well I've seen SQL 07:44:41 And I've seen haskell but never used it 07:44:55 So, I've *used* sql 07:45:07 I forgot prolog 07:45:17 I'll also be learning prolog in this class 07:45:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-23-140.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:28 in almost all cases you will realise that it's not about the syntax, except for lisp where the syntax actually is the result of a careful design decision 07:45:40 plus some historic accidents (M-exprs, etc) 07:46:55 oh I did have lisp and prolog in the same class while still at uni... that was only because the teachers didn't understand anything about them and wanted to be able to skip them as fast as possible while still being able to say they did cover it 07:47:26 I get the sense that no future classes will touch on these again 07:47:33 So probably the same situation 07:47:59 JavaDog: That's sad. But then again, in my experience people who actually know programming well, does not want to work in education. 07:47:59 kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has joined #lisp 07:48:16 -!- kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:51:21 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:25 kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has joined #lisp 07:51:36 -!- __quasi [~quasi@117.195.39.161] has quit [Quit: __quasi] 07:53:04 -!- envia [~envia@unaffiliated/envia] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:53:37 Do the lisp wizards have any objection? http://pastebin.com/8UfBeTiY 07:54:03 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:42 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:57:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:58:12 If sex ed has taught me anything, silence means "everything is fine!" 07:58:20 so I'm off to bed for tonight 07:58:43 JavaDog: (defun find-upper-level-courses (list) (remove 3000 list :test #'>= :key #'cadr)) 07:58:44 use push rather than setq 07:59:16 and unless your assigment is specifically about using dolist, try to understand the remove based solution which is way better 07:59:34 jdz: I'm in the first couple weeks of my class on this so I have no idea what that means 07:59:38 *JuanDaugherty* thought silence meant "what are you kids doing???" 07:59:40 I'm sure we'll get to remove before too long 08:00:10 If I turned that in I wouldn't be able to explain what's going on 08:00:26 JavaDog: also, i'm sure the result of your function returns a list with a different structure than the input 08:00:49 JavaDog: that's why you go read up on REMOVE and understand it 08:01:05 The structure changes, but it's fine as it is 08:01:33 also, are you sure you only want to print the result, and not return it? 08:01:34 And I'd rather follow the pace of the class... it's already a lot of work, and I have work to do in 4 other classes so I honestly don't have the time 08:01:46 yeah, the instructions say to print it 08:01:58 so rename the function to print-upper-level-courses 08:02:17 Well it does return them, too 08:02:23 are you sure? 08:02:30 or, a string containing them, or something 08:02:36 because when I run it I get the output twice 08:02:38 JavaDog: if set up your editor to automatically indent to the right level stacking the parenthesis will probably start to make sense. A lot of us are using editors that will also cut and paste based on sexps so having them separated by line wouldn't help there either 08:02:49 well, yes, by accident it retuns them 08:06:06 Alright, I switched it to use push, which maintains the structure 08:06:11 so that's nice I guess 08:06:14 Time for bed though 08:06:17 thanks for your help 08:07:00 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:16 -!- JavaDog [~JavaDog@50.7.1.2] has quit [Quit: night] 08:09:58 a student just refused to read a page of documentation, right? is that how they think they're going to teach them the job, by not reading the docs? 08:10:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.95] has joined #lisp 08:10:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.95] has quit [Changing host] 08:10:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:14:14 Opening the way for a valuable life-lesson. 08:14:21 Bring out the bats. 08:16:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:17:01 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:38 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 08:20:18 heh 08:20:33 liuzhoou [~liuzhoou@125.215.44.36] has joined #lisp 08:21:41 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:23:03 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:09 -!- macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: *macrobat raegquits] 08:25:04 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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A hand crafted IRC client] 09:11:45 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:21 kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-120-109.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 -!- __quasi [~quasi@117.195.39.161] has quit [Quit: __quasi] 09:13:37 ABNF DEFINITION OF ABNF is given as recursive so that I don't know how to transform it into a regexp... which would have been fun, as my ABNF parser generator would have been able to replace itself ;-) 09:15:46 :) 09:16:10 dim: it's not recursive, it's metalinguistically recursive. 09:16:16 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:16:18 Just like lisp is defined in lisp. 09:16:29 Should not be a problem of a seasoned lisper. 09:16:46 Use oregano. 09:16:49 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@60.177.241.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16:49 ogamita: not the idea of expressing ABNF in ABNF, I'm talking about the actual thing, have a look at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2234#section-4 09:16:53 (Of course, Dijskstra always had problems with it, so you'd be in good company if you can't grasp it). 09:17:26 sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:17:36 dim: sorry, I don't see the difference between section-4 and AIM-8. 09:17:41 I have an ABNF parser generator now, it compiles ABNF into regexp for cl-ppcre using its s-expr based parse-tree for create-scanner 09:17:44 that works wuite well 09:18:01 There's even a quote operator! "x" vs. 'x 09:18:04 ogamita: my problem is that I don't know how to express grammar recursion in regexp 09:18:07 vs. (quote x) I mean. 09:18:11 :-) 09:18:13 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:13 regexp! 09:18:22 two conclusions: regexp was a bad choice as the target of my compiler here 09:18:24 stardiviner [~stardivin@60.177.241.186] has joined #lisp 09:18:34 I can't bootstrap ABNF with itself 09:19:15 This is parsing-101: Chomsky hierarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy 09:19:25 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 09:19:49 ogamita: and here's what I have here that works: http://git.tapoueh.org/?p=pgloader.git;a=blob;f=abnf.lisp;h=5bbb2025f08e2f4106066b7c8ed46b3ccf2ead04;hb=HEAD 09:19:53 dim: you can bootstrap ABNF with itself. See the sources of Zebu, they do exactly that. 09:20:12 http://www.cliki.net/zebu 09:20:16 I could if I didn't choose to generate regexp based parsers I guess 09:20:21 Yes. 09:20:27 regexps are always a problem. 09:20:30 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:20:35 but I chose simplicity over completeness 09:20:52 cl-ppcre is already written and make regexp matching (with registers) fast 09:20:59 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:06 I want fast (parsing 10000 syslog messages per second is the duty here) 09:21:09 -!- krrrcks [~dbr@krrrcks.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:21:09 -!- smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:21:10 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:21:10 -!- kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:21:19 But recursive descent parsers are so simple. 09:21:26 krrrcks [~dbr@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:45 Well, there's a difference between parsing the grammar, and parsing the language defined by the grammar. 09:22:05 If you use the grammar to describe regexps, good. 09:22:17 But don't use regexps to parse the grammar description. 09:22:19 I did want to save work for myself 09:22:19 generating the cl-ppcre parse-tree format is dead simple 09:22:30 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:34 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:22:36 oh exactly 09:23:00 I use esrap for parsing the ABNF, and generate a regexp to match messages against what the ABNF describes 09:23:01 Yes, but then you can generate a parser only for a subset of the languages that could be described by the ABNF notation. 09:23:11 exactly my point 09:23:17 Check Chomsky classification. 09:23:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:23:56 You could write a function to check whether the grammar you're given in ABNF is a regular grammar. 09:24:04 I have ABNF DEFINITION OF ABNF but that's sadly out of scope for me here (because of my choice of target implementation, cl-ppcre), or I could have built an ABNF parser out of my ABNF parser generator, and it would have been so much fun 09:24:10 Yes. 09:24:19 but well I didn't do that *just* to have fun 09:24:30 smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:44 I'm still impressed that with CL and some libs I could do it at all in a week's evening sessions, to be honnest 09:24:45 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:25:44 (and I started with manual parsing of syslog messages, too, just to realise that there's no way I'm going to cover anything interesting that way and should let the user define the messages he wants my tool to parse and load) 09:25:53 Sshht! This is our secret. 09:25:53 ken [~this@41.89.164.16] has joined #lisp 09:26:12 well, sometime I wish more people knew about it 09:26:17 -!- ken is now known as Guest85106 09:26:44 so that they could stop being so surprised when I mention I'm using CL anytime I have a choice (that's pretty often), and so that they would appreciate why and consider it for themselves 09:28:24 Don't say you're using common lisp. Say you're using industry standard "ANSI INCITS 226-1994 (R2004)". 09:28:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:29:02 -!- doomlord__ [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:30:15 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:45 kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has joined #lisp 09:32:14 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:08 I'd rather not 09:35:14 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:36:41 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:36:59 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:12 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:44 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:40:57 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 09:43:15 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:27 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:44:58 doomlord__ [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:16 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:40 dim: it was just a suggestion to avoid the question of why lisp. 09:47:51 Try it ;-) 09:47:56 hajovonta [~user@173.248.133.249] has joined #lisp 09:48:01 hello 09:48:10 Hi! 09:48:13 well people asking the question are usually hackers 09:48:32 is there a way to query the symbols that are currently interned? 09:48:36 or customers, abut customers are easier to deal with: lisp allows me to deliver better quality in less time, so it will cost you less 09:48:42 hajovonta: do-symbols 09:49:05 __quasi [~quasi@117.195.33.248] has joined #lisp 09:49:12 thanks 09:50:02 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:50:11 hajovonta: also find-symbol if you know a symbol name and package. 09:50:29 and interactively, apropos 09:50:44 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:58:10 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-214-209.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 09:59:47 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:34 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:03:51 ogamita: that's exactly what i wanted, thanks 10:04:42 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:49 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 10:05:18 do-symbols lists all symbols that are accessible 10:05:37 but is there a way to list those whose home-package is the package specified? 10:05:38 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:05:46 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:53 (do-symbols (s "MY-SWEET-HOME-PACKAGE") (do-something-with s)) 10:07:10 See also com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:list-symbols 10:07:19 what would be the proper way to automatically load systems with quicklisp when slime is launched? I am reading this: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html but I don't have a ~/src/lisp so I don't know what's supposed to be there. 10:07:33 and com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:list-external-symbols 10:07:50 i've seen this: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/packages.html 10:08:00 genkinodenki: well, you could do that in ~/.swank.lisp 10:08:15 slime is loaded into emacs. swank is loaded into the CL implementation. 10:08:25 ogamita: oh. 10:08:37 hajovonta: yes, same thing ;-) 10:08:41 ogamita: the code you provided also lists those symbols that are external but accessible 10:09:07 do-symbol lists all interned symbols. do-external-symbols only lists exported symbols. 10:09:51 Now, accessible is something else. Uninterned symbols (created by make-symbol or gensym) can be accessible without going thru a package, eg. when bound to a variable. 10:10:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:10:17 "accessible" means something to the garbage collector. 10:10:22 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:10:33 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:10:53 ogamita: i understand what interned is, and accessible is (i've read the appropriate chapter from pcl). 10:11:01 good. 10:11:22 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:28 what i specifically want is that i have a package which uses another packages, but i don't want to list those that are in the used packages. 10:14:40 hajovonta: well, you should be much more precise. Because symbols can be accessible from a package, because they're exported from packages that are on the use list, or because they're imported, or shadow-imported. A symbol can be in a package because it's interned (and have as home package this package), but it can also be in a package without having its home package be the same package. The home package can even be nil! 10:15:28 But let's say you want symbols whose home package is some given package: (let (l) (do-symbols (s p l) (when (eq (find-package p) (symbol-package s)) (push s l)))) 10:15:52 (one letter variables are only for irc, IRL, you would use normal variable names). 10:16:29 IRL you would also compute the constants outside of the loop. 10:16:41 ogamita: ok, so there is no direct function for that, but i can collect those in the way you presented. 10:18:18 Yes. 10:19:00 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:19:01 Notice that the standard doesn't mandate that eg. (eq (symbol-package 'cl:nil) (find-package :cl)) 10:19:16 See the notion of conduit packages. 10:19:48 -!- liuzhoou [~liuzhoou@125.215.44.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:21 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:57 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:50 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 10:22:13 ogamita: it's working 10:23:05 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 10:24:33 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Client Quit] 10:29:02 -!- __quasi [~quasi@117.195.33.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:29:11 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:30:23 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:29 -!- ltbarcly 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seconds] 12:44:11 aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:44:15 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-164-57.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:44:30 i forgot the format directive for multi-line strings in the source code, anyone happen to know from memory? 12:44:36 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ruvopydolohmjwya] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:28 ~ 12:47:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:49:51 AntiSpamMeta2 [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 12:49:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta is now known as Guest39291 12:49:51 -!- Guest39291 [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Killed (card.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 12:49:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta2 is now known as AntiSpamMeta 12:50:01 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:50:18 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:50:35 stassats: ah, i put it on the next line instead of at the end of line 12:51:28 clhs 22.3.9.3 12:51:29 Tilde Newline: Ignored Newline: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm 12:51:57 it has some useful options 12:52:05 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:51 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:39 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:58:28 -!- bja [~bja@70.42.157.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:59:30 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:00:17 LiamH [~healy@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 -!- kanru` [~kanru@193.214.41.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:01:22 Gooder [~user@60.24.152.136] has joined #lisp 13:01:38 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-164-57.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:01:44 -!- ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:17 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:09:54 harish [~harish@119.56.125.32] has joined #lisp 13:10:12 stassats: thanks, i had never looked at its options 13:10:44 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has joined #lisp 13:13:50 -!- aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-136-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:51 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-geixcgjzqwnmipue] has joined #lisp 13:14:15 -!- shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.32.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:09 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:20 sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:17:55 bja [~bja@70.42.157.21] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.32.188] has joined #lisp 13:18:40 macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:21:34 Munksgaard [~philip@130.225.125.196] has joined #lisp 13:22:39 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-60.lijbrandt.net] has quit 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[~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 14:38:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40:14 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:48 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 14:40:58 -!- walter [~walter@c-98-216-15-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:46:41 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:46:49 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-wqdfltknraefprom] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:01 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:49:19 Hey folks, I've implemented SB-BSD-SOCKETS in my Common Lisp environment. 14:50:12 I'm not to up on socket programming. I downloaded some example server code from the web and it uses sb-impl::add-fd-handler - it got me to thinking. How does a single-threaded Common Lisp environment listen for inputs on sockets. 14:51:15 Do I need to modify the main REPL loop so that it uses the unix "select" function to monitor multiple file-descriptors and then dispatch to a handler whenever input comes in from a file-descriptor? 14:51:17 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@69.3.174.98] has joined #lisp 14:51:19 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:51:24 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 14:51:51 Is this what sb-impl::add-fd-handler is setting up? (I've also asked this question in #sbcl - I'm multitasking). 14:51:54 drmeister: sbcl inherited a system called serve-event from cmucl. i think it aims to handle some of that. 14:52:07 i could never quite figure out how to use serve-event though. 14:53:17 What I really want to do is mimic whatever ECL does. I found a call to "select" in the source code - but it doesn't seem to be setup the way I expected. 14:53:34 Xach: serve-event -- I'll look that up. 14:53:59 I found this - http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/serve-event.html - reading... 14:55:33 please don't copy serve-event 14:55:36 you'll end up repenting 14:55:48 it's not reëntrant 14:56:23 I usually just fire off one thread per connection. 14:57:41 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:57:58 it's a relic from single-threaded CMUCL 14:58:18 fe[nl]ix: I have a single-threaded Common Lisp implementation - what would you recommend I implement? 14:58:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:41 I guess you could do worse than copying sb-bsd-sockets but I've never been that fond of it. I don't like the naming scheme or the representation of addresses. 14:58:54 Feels very much like an awkard port of old perl ideas to me. 14:59:34 ccorn [~ccorn@ip-213-127-161-131.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:47 I want to get SLIME running with my Common Lisp implementation - my CL-implementation mimics ECL. So the quickest way is to use swank-ecl. Swank-ecl uses ECL's implementation of SB-BSD-SOCKETS. So I implemented SB-BSD-SOCKETS. 15:00:04 sword [~sword@c-24-21-33-225.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:05 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 Makes sense. I don't know a faster way to get going without doing a lot more research. 15:00:58 But it seems that there is more to getting swank-ecl running than SB-BSD-SOCKETS - I need to figure out how to handle events (I think, I haven't looked too closely at swank-ecl.lsp, I'm doing that now). 15:01:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-35-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:01:16 try to understand the purpose of serve-event 15:01:53 I just noticed that swank-ecl.lisp uses serve-event. 15:02:27 I guess I know what I'm going to be doing next - implement serve-event. 15:03:56 fe[nl]ix: I mean - is there something better to implement than "serve-event" in the situation where you have a new single-threaded CL environment? 15:04:54 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.216] has joined #lisp 15:05:15 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 15:05:22 drmeister: What CL implementation is it you're using? 15:05:58 loke_erc`: I wrote my own - it uses the ECL Common Lisp code hosted on an entirely new C++ core. 15:06:21 With LLVM as the back-end generating JIT compiled native code. 15:06:32 drmeister: what you need is some for of concurrency 15:06:42 that's the purpose of serve-event 15:06:52 drmeister: Just implement threads before you deal with sockets. 15:06:52 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@130.225.125.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:06:59 drmeister: that'll solve everything 15:07:04 What is "for of concurrency"? 15:07:12 to make sure that the slime repl does not block the main(only) execution thread 15:07:58 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:27 Ok, but that seems to be the problem that serve-event solves in a single-threaded situation. 15:08:34 that's correct 15:08:53 loke_erc`: Getting multithreading working sounds like a harder problem than getting serve-event working. 15:09:16 How hard is it to implement multithreading? 15:09:43 -!- bja [~bja@70.42.157.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:52 drmeister: serve-event can also be used on SMP lisps but it's unnecessary and counterproductive 15:10:32 http://paste.lisp.org/+2Z5N I can't load clsql-sqlite3 15:11:06 wtf 15:11:15 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:4827:b4a5:c3b6:35d0] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:11:33 fe[nl]ix: I understand - if you have multithreading then serve-event is a bad idea - right? You just set up each thread to listen to it's socket. 15:12:48 yes 15:14:29 ECL's implementation of serve-event is 232 lines of code - I can convert that to work (with the underlying C++ support) in my CL in a couple of hours. 15:14:39 Should be able to. 15:14:40 serve-event on sbcl is evil. 15:14:51 recursive event loop == bad idea. 15:14:59 don't know about other implementations 15:15:24 Is that basically what I need to run swank-ecl? SB-BSD-SOCKETS and SERVE-EVENT? 15:15:24 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:15:43 An event loop is a fine idea, but the way sbcl's handles recursively being invoked makes it really hard to use correctly. :( 15:16:21 I mean is that all I'll need to run swank-ecl on a vanilla, single-threaded Common Lisp implementation - SB-BSD-SOCKETS and SERVE-EVENT? 15:16:42 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:16:49 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:00 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@ip-213-127-161-131.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:20:34 Well, I'll do what I always do - implement it, run it, crash horribly - figure out what to do next. 15:21:31 It looks like I'll also have to finish adding my gray-stream hooks. 15:23:37 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 15:25:13 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.119.216] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 15:25:37 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:13 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 15:30:42 LiamH: that makefile is screwed up 15:31:55 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:32:15 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:1130:d63d:9e01:1f93] has joined #lisp 15:36:18 drmeister: when you grep for select, mind grepping for poll too! 15:36:42 yati [~yati@223.239.200.36] has joined #lisp 15:36:50 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:36:58 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:39:24 Now, there's this CL:LISTEN function that can be used to report the status of a stream (when select or poll tells you I/O is possible, you can have LISTEN return T). For non threaded programs, it's a way to poll streams, and along with READ-CHAR-NO-HANG, to implement non-blocking I/O. Of course, a system:read-byte-no-hang would be useful too, and more efficient APIs too; that's where multi-theads help I guess. (See also clisp 15:39:25 socket-status http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/socket.html#so-status (it's a wrapper over select/poll). 15:40:41 sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:40:56 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:22 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:41:28 k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:44:47 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cfhuzuxbocyhlerf] has joined #lisp 15:45:22 drmeister: you don't need serve-event to run slime 15:45:43 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@69.3.174.98] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 15:47:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:49:21 fe[nl]ix: Which one, in clsql-sqlite3? 15:49:52 yes 15:50:35 time for a bug report, I guess 15:50:57 sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:54:36 -!- kanru` [~kanru@201.42.214.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:54:55 -!- cdan [~cdan@mail.savatech.ro] has quit [Quit: cdan] 15:55:28 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 -!- arkx [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59:13 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:30 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 16:01:45 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:13 arkx [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 16:03:06 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:31 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 16:08:02 -!- Guest85106 [~this@41.89.164.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:09:03 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 16:14:51 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-0.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:26 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:17:11 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23:00 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:23:58 -!- yati [~yati@223.239.200.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:12 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:1130:d63d:9e01:1f93] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 16:30:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:41 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 -!- ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:30 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 16:33:55 how can I pass the &rest arguments of a function to format? 16:33:59 thanks 16:34:42 apply? 16:34:52 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:14 ~? 16:35:34 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:54 that's because &rest data, data will be a list? 16:38:46 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 16:38:49 conceptually 16:39:02 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:06 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:32 but the outer function has to act like a wrapper for format 16:39:57 (defun my-format (control-string &rest arguments) ...) 16:40:05 depends 16:40:11 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:40:19 you can also prepend the arguments 16:41:09 (apply #'format `(t "format-string" ,@arguments)) 16:41:21 or just (apply #'format stream control-string arguments) 16:41:49 capisce: that's no good 16:42:01 right, what Bike said 16:42:17 nice thanks 16:42:45 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 16:42:54 stassats: you mean incorrect or just not the ideal way? 16:43:04 Or (format stream "~{~}" control-string arguments) 16:43:10 capisce: ugly and unnecessary 16:43:14 but not incorrect 16:43:48 What is point of wrapper if your just going to apply args to format? (Just curious) 16:43:53 Xach: you mean (format stream "~?" control-string arguments) ? 16:43:53 Xach: if apply had happened to only take a list argument for the parameters, would there still have been a nicer way? 16:44:18 by using apply that is :) 16:44:22 stassats: I meant what I meant! 16:44:35 Xach: your meant is longer than mine 16:44:54 I don't mean to brag but since you brought it up, yes. 16:44:56 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:44:56 (defun better-apply (function &rest args) (apply function (append (butlast args) (first (last args))))), obviously 16:44:57 don't fight over who has the longest meant 16:45:15 capisce: I don't know, I don't know of any lisp with such a limited APPLY and also something as powerful as FORMAT. 16:46:25 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:54 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:47:33 hmm, a bit strange that last returns a list containing the last element 16:47:39 guiambros [~guiambros@pool-96-224-200-82.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:03 Xach: and the right thing is even longer: ~1{~:} 16:48:21 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:49:09 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:49:21 capisce: (last list 0) 16:49:27 *Xach* abandons ~{~} 16:50:48 capisce: if you want very last cons, but for list is usually nil :( 16:51:25 last cdr 16:52:07 stassats: Indeed, sorry, that's what I meant ;) 16:53:17 you can do a proper-list-p with it: (null (last list 0)) 16:53:48 except for the circular ones 16:53:58 -!- ehu` [~ehu@31.138.100.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:54:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:34 NihilistDandy [~ND@132.198.9.255] has joined #lisp 16:55:16 gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has joined #lisp 16:55:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:33 -!- abend_ is now known as abend 16:57:19 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:59:02 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 17:05:05 stassats: Is the slime/swank protocol described anywhere other than in the swank-XXX.lisp source files? 17:05:13 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 17:05:15 of course not! 17:05:28 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 17:05:56 Great! Then there is nothing out there to confuse me, just cold, hard code. 17:06:19 depends fully on the color scheme 17:06:41 drmeister: why do you need the protocol? you have a cl implementation 17:06:54 just lift the ecl backend, and change it 17:07:36 I've implemented SB-BSD-SOCKETS and SERVE-EVENT and I'm going to finish tying gray-streams into my low level routines. 17:08:06 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has joined #lisp 17:08:12 My implementation diverges from ECL in the high level stuff - for instance, I think I have more informative backtrace information (source file/line-numbers etc). 17:08:24 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-120-109.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:08:31 it's hard to be less informative than ecl 17:08:37 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:09:35 Starting with the ECL swank interface I'd like to add the extra info. I guess I'll go into the swank-sbcl.lisp file and compare that to the swank-ecl.lisp file in terms of what backtrace and debugging info is sent back and forth. 17:09:56 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:38 That's why I was looking for more information on the protocol - I haven't really looked at it yet. 17:11:03 I was looking for some sort of warm-up primer. 17:11:08 how do you deal with c++ name mangling and other ABI problematic things? do you leave it completely to the compiler? 17:11:29 the c++ compiler, that is 17:12:04 Yes, I leave it completely up to the compiler. 17:12:38 i want to call c++, but without a compiler 17:13:17 How do you mean? You have a library that you want to interface to? 17:13:18 the task of mimicking what different version on different platforms is daunting 17:13:46 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-geixcgjzqwnmipue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:13:54 drmeister: yes, Qt 17:14:06 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 commonqt goes through C wrappers 17:14:35 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:14:48 bleh - I hate C-wrappers - they end up taking more time than anything else. 17:14:49 which requires additional tools, compilers, and wraps things not in the best way 17:15:57 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 17:16:32 My approach (the boost::python and luabind approach) is to use a C++ template library that generates the wrappers at compile-time from a minimal definition written in C++. def("xxx",&xxx) wraps the xxx function. 17:17:18 -!- Zhivago [~lys@unaffiliated/zhivago] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:38 Zhivago [~lys@1.234.65.131] has joined #lisp 17:17:56 class_().def("a",&YYY::a).def("b",&YYY::b) wraps the class YYY and the two member functions YYY::a and YYY::b. 17:18:44 I've got to run for a swim before the pool closes - I'll be back later. 17:19:51 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-159.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:00 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 17:22:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:24:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:24:05 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 17:24:11 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:20 17:25:24 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 17:26:16 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 17:26:22 shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.32.188] has joined #lisp 17:28:00 -!- aluuu [~aluuu@77.242.110.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:30:22 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:30:43 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 17:32:38 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cfhuzuxbocyhlerf] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:07 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:35:13 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:36:40 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:46 -!- mmathis [~surya@198.199.68.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:40:49 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-237-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 242 seconds] 17:44:08 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.77.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:01 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 -!- Gooder [~user@60.24.152.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:26 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:48:10 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 17:48:20 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-zmtszyandoiquxiu] has joined #lisp 17:48:20 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:22 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:42 desophos [~desophos@n93h142.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:50:08 foeniks [~fevon@p5499DE15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:37 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:50 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:44 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:56:42 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:57:46 bja [~bja@209.252.19.130] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:40 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifetime stopped because of unnecessary operation] 17:58:58 mmathis [~surya@198.199.68.171] has joined #lisp 18:00:25 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:00:44 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 18:03:41 -!- shridhar [~Shridhar@116.75.32.188] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 18:05:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:55 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:10:00 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:10:35 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has joined #lisp 18:19:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24:14 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:33 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@132.198.9.255] has quit [] 18:25:14 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:26:08 stassats - are you still online? 18:26:21 probably 18:26:27 Why does commonqt use a #_ reader macro? 18:26:53 to stop case conversion 18:27:19 Oh - that's it? 18:27:22 and avoid having all the functions of qt to be macros 18:27:39 i mean, having all the functions defined 18:28:21 I see - so that you get a one-to-one map of #_name to C function names. 18:28:24 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:27 if there was no case convertion, it'd be (call-qt name args), you couldn't have (name args) without defining all the names 18:29:22 I'll keep that in mind. That's one thing that I always have to deal with - converting C++ names to Common lisp symbols. 18:29:28 it's not really C function names, since it's C++, and you don't know which function to actually call without knowing the types 18:29:43 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-99-185.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:29:53 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 I thought these were all wrapped in C-wrappers? 18:30:07 pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-99-185.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:30:14 which wrapper to call when there is overloading? 18:30:21 -!- pjb is now known as Guest6138 18:30:22 Do the C-wrappers dispatch to different C++ functions based on the argument types. 18:31:04 -!- sloanr [~user@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:31:39 no, lisp dispatches to the right c wrappers 18:32:23 the argument type is not the only thing to dispatch on, different number of arguments is another 18:32:30 -!- Guest6138 is now known as pjb` 18:32:54 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 18:32:54 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:33:46 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33:47 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:25 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:25 sdemarre [~serge@194.65-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:39:01 -!- desophos [~desophos@n93h142.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:41:37 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:45:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:45:58 catdog123 [~catdog123@c1fw224.constantcontact.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:09 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-199-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:18 Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:25 drmeister: and of course you need to know how to marshal the arguments 18:50:27 which c can't do 18:50:35 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-199-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:43 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:13 marsam [~mario@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 18:54:17 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-199-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:24 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-227-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:58:14 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:01:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:37 desophos [~desophos@n36h221.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 19:03:00 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-012-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:28 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:06:11 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:13 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-zmtszyandoiquxiu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:12:53 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:19 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:19:53 -!- marsam [~mario@190.222.252.106] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:19:55 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 19:22:33 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-pzbdsojmbxbblqrq] has joined #lisp 19:22:47 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:23:12 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 19:23:30 speaking of C FFI, is there an easy way to get access to the slots of a structure or union if you have it "in your hand" as it were, instead of having a pointer? Or do you always have to get a pointer first, and then reference the slots? 19:24:23 rpg: CFFI has translation methods. 19:25:07 Default is to make a plist, but you can define your own. 19:25:47 LiamH: I suspect I have been working too hard.... I have been using cffi:foreign-slot-value everywhere. 19:26:07 and that seems to require pointers to structures instead of structures. 19:26:20 what do you mean "in your hand" ? 19:26:27 speak C 19:26:28 <|3b|> you can't have actual C structures in lisp 19:26:51 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:29 <|3b|> or rather "in cffi"... i suppose specific implementations might expose C stuff 19:27:35 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:29:18 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:34 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #lisp 19:31:41 fe[nl]ix: I have a C structure that contains a union, rather than containing a union ptr. So when I dereference the slot to get the union, I get something I can't apply cffi:foreign-slot-value to... 19:32:17 Take a pointer to it, cast it to one or the other branch of the union. 19:32:19 fe[nl]ix: my ability to speak C has degraded quite a bit in the 30 years since I last wrote it regularly :-/ 19:33:10 pjb: That's what I thought, I was just asking if there was a short cut that didn't involve taking a pointer. I can do that easily by using foreign-slot-pointer instead of foreign-slot-value to grab the union.... 19:33:21 rpg: translate-from-foreign works recursively 19:34:32 but, now that I think of it, maybe only if it's a structure with a structure in a slot. 19:37:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:25 I would either use foreign-slot-pointer + foreign-slot-value 19:37:39 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 19:37:40 <|3b|> how do you dereference the slot to get the union? i'd expect it to either give you a pointer or translate it 19:38:05 or, in case you only ever use one member of the union, avoid declaring the union altogether 19:38:32 cffi-grovel is especially useful in that case, to make sure you get the offset right 19:39:28 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:41:09 Bike [~Glossina@duncandunn-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 Zagaba`school [~user@206.167.112.182] has joined #lisp 19:43:05 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-199-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:02 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:40 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:12 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:19 I'm trying to learn CL, and I'm looking for a little program written in it, does someone have an idea? 19:45:36 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:45:42 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@65-130-17-108.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:45:48 |3b|: since the union is "in-place" instead of being an external structure reached by a pointer, I get the thing itself. 19:46:15 I have been just using the defcstruct stuff that SWIG spits out for me. 19:46:59 Zagaba`school: to write or to read? 19:47:09 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:19 Bike: read. 19:47:41 I think perhaps I should be doing some more translation definitions.... 19:47:51 minion: tell Zagaba`school about PCL 19:47:51 Zagaba`school: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:47:52 that has some 19:48:12 Thank you. :) 19:48:38 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:06 -!- desophos [~desophos@n36h221.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:49:28 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 19:49:38 |3b|: Aha! I see -- I didn't understand that I was getting back a PLIST. Sorry, now I see. I was reading the wrong part of the CFFI docs. 19:50:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:21 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:50:40 Thanks, everyone! Light has slowly begun to dawn. 19:51:25 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:18 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:02 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:56:18 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:56:22 -!- ft [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Quit: demons to some, angels to others] 19:56:42 ft [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:38 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@duncandunn-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:11 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:16 -!- sdemarre 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timeout: 245 seconds] 20:34:49 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:09 I'm implementing WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECTS - it requires the type of the foreign-objects be specified as in '(array :unsigned-char ###) - is there a facility in Common Lisp to determine the size in bytes of types like these or do I need to roll my own? 20:37:09 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:37:13 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:37:28 I'm pretty sure I need to roll my own. 20:38:08 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC628AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 fdsaqwer [~fdsaqwer@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:39:14 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:40:06 your own, yes 20:40:35 No problem - thanks. 20:41:07 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:41:24 hi. 20:41:25 drmeister: some lisp at generation time generate a little C program to dump those size for them. 20:42:09 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:13 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:19 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@ip-64-134-234-197.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:28 -!- sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:43:29 pjb: Thanks - I'm not integrating a C-compiler at this point (I will later when I integrate more of the Clang libraries). I'll just limit to (array :unsigned-char ###) for now. 20:43:53 I'm just working to get serve-event and sb-bsd-sockets working. 20:44:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:45:53 -!- fdsaqwer [~fdsaqwer@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:14 That said, a FFI could very well punt on the C types, and denote bytes, 2-bytes 4-bytes, 8-bytes, sequences therefore, packed or not, and let the user program match that to C types. 20:46:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:39 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:58 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:11 Sometimes, I think it would be preferable, since it would allow dynamically loading 32-bit or 64-bit libraries or adapt more easily to different languages (not only C). 20:47:33 drmeister: Roll out everyone's own instead. 20:47:41 dsddee [~dsddee@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:47:45 -!- reb`` [user@nat/google/x-jgzujklzggcxmxmq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:04 One would think that a reusable library modeling these things would be useful for many people. 20:48:35 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:49:08 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 20:49:11 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:59 pjb: How do FFI's work currently - I thought the programmer had to exactly specify the layout of C structures and classes. Isn't that "punt(ing) on the C types? 20:50:18 I haven't used any CL FFI's yet. 20:50:33 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51:18 -!- GuglielmoS [~guglielmo@ppp-169-104.21-151.libero.it] has quit [Quit: GuglielmoS] 20:51:33 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:49 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:15 francis_wolke` [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:03 hm 20:53:28 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:01 drmeister: that's correct, but it's still specified in terms of known size. a C short can be 2, 4 or 8. Lisp programs don't know that, they specify :short. Implementations know that :short is 2, 4 or 8 bytes. 20:56:09 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:20 Oh, so to repeat that back - the FFI works with :short and the implementation has to define the size of :short - is that correct? 20:56:33 That's how it's done in general, yes. 20:58:02 And the FFI's don't have hardwired types like int32_t, int64_t? 20:58:23 Those are typedef or #define in C headers. 20:58:25 immaterial. 20:58:40 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:59:39 But that's what you mean by " bytes, 2-bytes 4-bytes, 8-bytes, sequences therefore, packed or not..." isn't it? Precisely defined bit-width types. 21:00:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:14 Yes. We're talking about ABI. There a special ABI, which is the kernel's one. Then there are the ABI implemented by the various compilers. Usually, on a unix system, all the C compilers implement about the same ABI as the kernel. But compilers of other languages, even C++ or Objective-C may use a different ABI, with different type sizes. 21:01:51 Eg. in C++, you have to use extern "C" {  } to declare types in the C ABI (not only to disable the name mangling, there could be differences in size too). 21:01:57 Well, on linux, the kernel function call ABI is totally different than the standard C ABI. 21:02:28 Yes, for the call itself indeed. 21:02:38 -!- desophos [~desophos@134.69.87.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:02:59 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:03 But for data structures, they're the same in general. It's true that some kernel data structure are a little strange and difficult to declare directly in C. 21:03:03 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:37 Anyways, the C/C++ ABI is standardized, and written down in a platform ABI document. Which is more to the point than the relationship of that to the kernel. :) 21:04:08 Huh - I didn't know that extern "C" changes types - or that kernel function calls are different from C function calls. 21:04:11 -!- dsddee [~dsddee@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:18 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:41 you never see kernel function calls; those aren't implemented by the compiler, only by the "syscall" function. 21:04:51 drmeister: that's why you need libc to do syscalls. And why most languages use libc, instead of re-implementing the syscalls. 21:05:16 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 dshddee [~dshddee@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 21:05:25 Well, we're discussion implementation of a compiler here :-) 21:05:45 quarkup [~quarkup@a79-168-109-199.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:06:24 I don't think extern "C" actually changes type layout in the itanium C++ ABI, does it? 21:06:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:57 I didn't say it did. Just that it's possible it does, if a C++ compiler implementor so fancy. 21:07:02 oh, sure. 21:07:26 (btw, "itanium c++ abi" here means 'standardized cross-vendor abi document originally intended for use on the itanium') 21:07:30 Well, you learn something new each day. I've had to mess around with low-level libraries way more than I ever thought I would implementing things like C++ exception handling in LLVM-IR. This puts a little more perspective on that. 21:08:41 All just to get C++ to talk to Common Lisp in a completely C++ implementation independent way. 21:09:29 I don't think you can be implementation independent and llvm-ir. :) 21:09:50 -!- catdog123 [~catdog123@c1fw224.constantcontact.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:09 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-zsjnhvpnvxeoecqb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:10:49 You know what - you are right about that - I guess I'm tied to clang. 21:10:52 The funny thing is, if I were to reimplement a Lisp kernel, i'd probably be very tempted to make it work directly with syscalls. Does that make me a crazy person? (Or merely a person with severe C intolerance?) 21:11:04 is it normal that cl-irc requires us to use unexported symbols to add hooks on privmsg? (basically, every message.) 21:11:30 drmeister: Ok. Let's be practical. To interface with normal libraries, you have to provide the same types as the C compiler. Sometime using FFI one would want to be more precise, so you may also want to provide uint8, uint16, uint32, sint8, etc, but let's say it's optional. 21:11:40 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:13:04 (And I still think there ought to be a library for "given this and this C data type, give me its physical layout on a given architecture" without forcing people to launch C compilers in subprocesses.) 21:13:16 Perhaps ffcall? 21:13:28 pjb: Right now though I just want to get SLIME working - so I only need to store fd_set structures. 21:13:46 pjb: seeing this for the first time, will take a look at it. 21:14:40 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:58 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@63-154-129-209.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:17:44 gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:18:53 -!- igotnol__ 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