00:05:18 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:05:25 -!- seangrov` [~user@2600:1010:b00f:7a10:78b2:5aff:e0b3:4bee] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
00:06:12 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp
00:06:29 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp
00:07:24 segmond [~segmond@99.102.148.255] has joined #lisp
00:08:29 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:08:43 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
00:10:42 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:14:53 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp
00:17:13 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:17:28 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
00:18:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:21:06 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:22:57 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
00:23:15 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
00:24:58 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:25:15 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
00:32:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:34:47 ipmonger_ [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
00:35:43 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:35:47 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
00:35:55 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:35:55 -!- ipmonger_ is now known as ipmonger
00:35:59 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
00:40:22 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp
00:42:28 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:42:43 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
00:43:10 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur]
00:47:30 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host97.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
00:49:42 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:49:59 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
00:50:43 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp
00:52:11 <photex> I haven't ever run sbcl tests. I typically just grab a version after some time and start using it
00:52:22 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:54:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
01:00:48 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare]
01:05:58 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:06:04 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp
01:06:18 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
01:09:43 -!- tic [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:11:17 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp
01:12:16 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:12:30 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
01:12:50 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-188-144.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:14:34 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp
01:15:49 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
01:16:50 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit]
01:18:59 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:19:15 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
01:20:29 sohail [~sohail@206-248-183-162.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp
01:20:29 -!- sohail [~sohail@206-248-183-162.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host]
01:20:29 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp
01:22:40 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
01:23:51 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger]
01:24:38 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
01:25:53 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
01:28:04 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
01:29:18 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:30:47 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-78.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp
01:33:14 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:33:28 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
01:34:48 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8]
01:35:00 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp
01:37:09 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
01:43:19 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:43:27 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:43:50 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
01:46:35 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:47:13 <drmeister> I'm thinking about implementing a sockets interface for my common lisp environment.
01:47:34 <drmeister> ECL mimics SBCL's SB-BSD-SOCKET interface.
01:47:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp
01:48:10 <drmeister> But the source code is an unholy combination of Common Lisp and C  that generates a C-source file.
01:48:44 <drmeister> Does anyone have any thoughts on what I might want to be doing here to implement a sockets interface?
01:48:49 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:48:56 <drmeister> Is SB-BSD-SOCKET the interface to implement?
01:49:10 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
01:49:55 <drmeister> I'm thinking of taking the SBCL source for SB-BSD-SOCKET and translating it into C++ and then exposing that to Common Lisp.
01:49:56 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
01:49:56 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
01:50:03 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp
01:51:13 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
01:51:29 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
01:52:18 -!- ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:54:39 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp
01:54:55 <drmeister> Or I could finish implementing my FFI and use sb-bsd-sockets directly.
01:55:39 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:55:51 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Client Quit]
01:56:12 nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp
01:57:05 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
01:58:02 <pjb> drmeister: perhaps you could have a look at iolib?
01:59:14 <drmeister> Does iolib use CFFI?
01:59:18 <pjb> Yes.
01:59:23 <pjb> Now, the thing is that you can provide an API at various level. A pure unix API, (thin layer), where the code deals with the same low level abstraction as C code would.  Or a more lispy API (thick layer), where the code would be abstracted away from the low level stuff.
02:00:04 <drmeister> What I'm looking for is the quickest path to running SLIME.
02:00:10 <pjb> For example, if (socket ) returns an integer (a unix fd), it's low level, we have to check whether it's negative, retrieve errno (which is not easy, you will probably have to save it for us anyways), etc.
02:00:18 <drmeister> Quickest - clean path to running SLIME.
02:00:41 <pjb> But if it returns a stream object, and signal a lisp condition on errors, then it's easier to use from lisp, but it gives you, the implementer, more work to integrate it nicely.
02:01:14 <pjb> Well, keeping it compatible with sb-bsd-socket is probably what will make it run the most smootly with slime.
02:01:27 <drmeister> Well, I'd like to implement an interface that looks like someone else sockets package.
02:01:39 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:01:47 <pjb> Yjrtr
02:01:54 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:02:02 <drmeister> I thought that since ECL appears to implement SB-BSD-SOCKETS that might be the way to go.
02:02:06 <pjb> There's also the usocket library, that provides a portability layer between all the implementations socket APIs.
02:02:08 <drmeister> What does Yjrtr mean?
02:02:21 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
02:02:34 <pjb> It means my fingers were shifted to the right on my keyboard when I tried to type "There".
02:02:44 <drmeister> Ah.
02:02:56 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
02:03:08 <pjb> The keyboard-shift encryption. Let's use that against NSA spying :-)
02:03:37 <pjb> Personnally, I like clisp socket API.  But they're all ok.
02:03:39 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:03:49 -!- aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
02:04:30 <drmeister> I have software several layers here that I need to write/finish - swank | socket layer | ffi
02:05:12 <drmeister> I can implement a thin socket layer as you suggest - that wouldn't take long.  But then I'll have to write a swank implementation from scratch - won't I?
02:06:12 <drmeister> On the other hand, if I invest the time in writing a sockets interface that mimics ECL's implementation of SB-BSD-SOCKETS then I can use the ECL swank without changes.
02:06:12 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
02:06:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
02:06:49 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp
02:07:42 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:08:06 <drmeister> Sort of how I spent a lot of time mimicking the low level C functionality of ECL and was able to host the 30,000 lines of ECL Common Lisp code with only minor changes.
02:08:24 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:08:36 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:09:52 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
02:09:54 <drmeister> Do you know - does SBCL's implementation SB-BSD-SOCKETS use CFFI?  - SBCL has it's own FFI doesn't it?
02:10:01 <Fare> drmeister, are you targeting unix only, windows only, or both?
02:10:07 <pjb> drmeister: yes.  Or perhaps there's a usocket backend in swank, so that you would only have to provide a backend to usocket.
02:10:11 <Fare> sbcl has its own ffi
02:10:14 <drmeister> Fare: Unix and OSX only.
02:10:55 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
02:11:15 <drmeister> pjb: There's an idea - are the implementation specific details of swank limited to the sockets layer?
02:11:15 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
02:11:43 <pjb> ok, swank only has implementation specific backends.  So no usocket here.
02:12:18 <pjb> Nope, there are also all kind of implementation specific non standard APIs to access the stack frames, the function definitions, etc.
02:12:28 <pjb> Check the various swank-{implementation}.lisp files.
02:12:59 <pjb> Not all the functions are mandatory, slime can work with a partial implementation.
02:13:07 <drmeister> Yeah - that's the conclusion that I came to as well - it would be best for me to keep mimicking whatever ECL does.
02:13:15 <pjb> I think so too.
02:14:05 <drmeister> So I need to mimic ECL's SB-BSD-SOCKETS layer.
02:14:38 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: danlentz]
02:15:03 <drmeister> And that code looks awful - that's not a criticism - it works I'm sure - just awful from my point-of-view.
02:15:32 <drmeister> It's very tied to ECL's compile-to-C-code approach.
02:15:37 <drmeister> Hmm.
02:15:38 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d3f0:6594:d51:6094:ffec] has joined #lisp
02:16:41 <drmeister> That's why I was thinking I could finish implementing my CFFI but then I learned that SBCL has it's own FFI and I'm guessing (but haven't verified) that SBCL's SB-BSD-SOCKETS code uses sbcl's own FFI.
02:17:00 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
02:17:02 *drmeister* is looking into that now.
02:17:05 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:17:19 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:18:29 <pjb> Or you can just take the API and re-implement it as you wish (eg. in C++).
02:19:58 <drmeister> Yeah - I'm thinking that's what I'm going to end up doing?
02:21:18 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
02:21:19 <drmeister> I'm already exposing 474 C++ classes - what's a few more?
02:22:00 <drmeister> Is there any way to run slime without sockets?
02:22:35 <drmeister> It will probably have pretty basic functionality.
02:23:09 <Bike> how would you communicate with emacs?
02:23:32 <drmeister> Currently I run my Common Lisp environment within "gud-gdb" in emacs or as the *inferior-lisp*
02:23:44 <drmeister> I edit source files in other frames and the LOAD them into my CL environment.
02:23:53 <drmeister> I can also type stuff into the REPL.
02:24:07 <drmeister> Is there a better way?
02:24:12 <Bike> so just with stdin and stdout?
02:24:17 <drmeister> Yeah.
02:24:36 <Bike> how would slime, e.g, request symbol completions?
02:24:47 <drmeister> I don't know.
02:24:59 <drmeister> I would guess that it can't.
02:25:25 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp
02:25:48 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:25:57 <drmeister> Sockets are probably essential.
02:26:05 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:26:19 <Bike> that's what i was trying to get at, yeah
02:26:23 <drmeister> Is there an SB-BSD-SOCKETS implementation that uses CFFI?
02:26:34 <drmeister> CFFI is the best FFI interface - right?
02:26:45 <Bike> it's certainly the commonest.
02:28:12 <pjb> drmeister: again, I think clisp FFI is the best FFI interface.  But CFFI is the portability layer library for FFIs.
02:29:00 <pjb> Those portability layer libraries become de-facto standard API for those features.  A new implementation may want to provide those API instead of diverging gratuituously.
02:29:21 <drmeister> I'm not too hip on the different FFI's - what is the relationship of CFFI to other FFI's?
02:29:25 <pjb> (Of course, you may have reasons to diverge, or extend those API, but if not, better to stick to them, I'd say).
02:29:39 <Bike> drmeister: cffi isn't an ffi. it's a portability layer over ffis.
02:29:57 <pjb> CFFI is a library, it contains mostly macros that expand to the other implementation-native FFI.
02:30:44 <gleag> drmeister: Why would you want to implement the BSD interface in the first place?
02:30:50 <drmeister> What is UFFI in relation to other FFI's?
02:30:58 <pjb> deprecated.
02:31:02 <drmeister> gleag: Becase ECL uses it.
02:31:06 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:31:13 <pjb> UFFI was the predecessor to CFFI, but it was less portable.
02:31:15 <drmeister> pjb: Really - but it's got Universal in the name?
02:31:16 <gleag> I thought that even in the C world, BSD sockets are not the nicest thing around, at least compared to, say, what Plan 9 used.
02:32:09 <Bike> drmeister: yeah, well, lots of things have lots of names.
02:32:20 <pjb> drmeister: that's why I don't like short names or prefixed with cl-.  That arrogantly takes some official, finished and archieved aspect that they really don't have.
02:32:59 <drmeister> I always thought Princeton's "Institute for Advanced Study" was a great name - it never gets old.
02:33:01 <pjb> At least, bordeaux-threads, you know it was made in Bordeaux University, and there could be a CMU-Threads and they could compete.
02:33:04 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:33:11 <pjb> :-)
02:33:19 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
02:33:29 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:34:06 <drmeister> So clisp FFI is the best FFI interface.
02:34:33 <gleag> pjb: So all the time I thought that "bordeaux threads" referred to the fabric color, I was wrong? :)
02:34:52 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
02:36:30 <gleag> Is there any page comparing the different FFIs? Sounds like an interesting topic.
02:37:15 <gleag> For example, if the CLISP is better than others, it could say why exactly. :)
02:37:55 <drmeister> I started writing an FFI interface several months ago but I have my own way of interfacing C++ to Common Lisp from the C++ side that completely eliminates a lot of the messing around on the Common Lisp side.
02:37:58 <Bike> as a start you could see what is and isn't included in the cffi backend. like whether there are callbacks and so on.
02:40:51 <gleag> Bike: that sounded like an encouragement for a write-up!
02:40:59 <Bike> maaaaaybe
02:41:02 <drmeister> I think I'll implement the SB-BSD-SOCKETS in C++ and expose that.
02:41:52 <gleag> Bike: I'd like to, but my C-fu is weak. I guess I'll just have to hope that I won't overlook critical details.
02:42:21 *gleag* has much to learn about ABIs and colling conventions.
02:42:32 <drmeister> Does this documentation in the SBCL manual accurately describe the SBCL sockets interface: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Networking
02:42:34 <Bike> i don't think you need to know that much C, really, just to tally things up i mean
02:43:28 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:43:50 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:46:04 <drmeister> It doesn't look too bad:  classes SOCKET, INET-SOCKET, LOCAL-SOCKET and some generic functions and assorted functions.
02:47:41 <drmeister> Here's the package definition and what gets exported from ECL's contrib/socket/package.lisp: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/5f3e6f0e19129a7c7765
02:47:42 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
02:48:51 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Client Quit]
02:51:31 <drmeister> Hmm, it's missing SOCKET-OPEN-P
02:52:17 Doug201 [~Dogu201@cpe-72-229-63-216.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
02:53:49 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:54:07 andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
02:55:17 -!- Doug201 [~Dogu201@cpe-72-229-63-216.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp
02:55:56 <drmeister> That looks like that's all there is too it.  There's almost a 1:1 match between the symbols exported by the ECL contrib/sockets code and the symbols defined in the SBCL networking documentation http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Networking
02:58:38 <drmeister> There's just the SOCKET-OPEN-P predicate missing in the ECL code and ECL exports the socket options and errors from within the sockets.lisp code.
02:59:39 <drmeister> Would anyone have the time to explain how UNSIGNED-BYTEs work in Common Lisp?
03:00:04 <Bike> what needs to be explained?
03:00:16 <Zhivago> It's an integer type -- (integer 0 *)
03:00:19 <drmeister> Regarding how they can have any number of bits and how they work with binary files?  Or am I just confusing myself and it's all just 8-bit bytes.
03:00:38 <|3b|> didn't we cover that last time, files only contain bounded integer types
03:00:58 <Zhivago> drmeister: It has an integer range.
03:01:07 <drmeister> |3b|: We did - I still came away confused.
03:01:14 <|3b|> (not specifically 8-bit, you can write 32-bit or whatever)
03:01:27 <drmeister> So binary files just contain 8-bit bounded integers?
03:01:27 <Bike> drmeister: there are only two hundred fifty six values in the (unsigned-byte 8) type, and so on
03:01:36 <drmeister> I understand that.
03:01:43 *|3b|* doesn't remember if implementations are required to support any finite subtype of integer or not though
03:01:51 <Zhivago> And 512 in (unsigned-byte 9) :)
03:02:06 <drmeister> There's no way to load an entire file as one giant bignum binary image - right?
03:02:16 <|3b|> binary files have a specific :element-type chosen when they are opened
03:02:28 <Bike> you could read a few bytes at a time and build a bignum yourself.
03:02:33 <|3b|> each read-byte reads an element of that size
03:02:34 <drmeister> And that :element-type is (unsigned-byte 8)?
03:02:42 <|3b|> it is whatever you pass to OPEN
03:03:02 <drmeister> So I can pass to open :element-type (unsigned-byte 32)?
03:03:07 <|3b|> right
03:03:11 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
03:03:26 <drmeister> And then I read and write 32-bit sized bytes?
03:03:26 <|3b|> but not unsigned-byte
03:03:30 <|3b|> right
03:03:35 <drmeister> Why not unsigned-byte?
03:03:43 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-78.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:03:49 <|3b|> because spec doesn't require it
03:03:57 <Bike> because it's less trivially encoded
03:04:05 <Bike> you'd need to put the length and such
03:04:09 <|3b|> since as you noticed, storing arbitrary sized integers in a file is more complicated
03:04:15 <Bike> well, that's the real reason, yeah :/
03:04:42 <|3b|> and probably none of the lisps they were unifying supported it
03:05:14 <Zhivago> I think you'd expect files to be all about octets, since the reign of posix.
03:05:38 <|3b|> hmm, apparently i misremembered and unsigned-byte is allowed
03:05:49 *|3b|* is confused now
03:05:55 <drmeister> Wait - ok - OPEN accepts :element-type with a "finite recognizable subtype of integer" or one of the symbols "signed-byte" "unsigned-byte" or :default.
03:06:04 <|3b|> yeah
03:06:09 <Bike> huh.
03:06:13 <Bike> so... what's that do.
03:06:21 <drmeister> Hah!
03:06:25 <|3b|> well, you are allowed to just ERROR if you don't like it :p
03:06:47 -!- andy_arvid [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
03:06:50 <gleag> I'd guess that mere signed-byte and unsigned-byte simply use the natural byte size on the platform?
03:07:03 *|3b|* sees no reason to guess that
03:07:20 <drmeister> So when you want to read/write binary files - what do people use?
03:07:33 <|3b|> most people probably use unsigned-byte 8 these days
03:07:52 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
03:07:53 <Zhivago> I certainly would. :)
03:08:01 <|3b|> since that is the only way to interact with other implementations or non-CL programs
03:08:13 <|3b|> *only reasonable/portable way
03:08:57 <gleag> |3b|: I'd guess that because CL was at the time designed for a rather large (from modern POV) range of different architectures.
03:09:13 <drmeister> I have to run.   NASA is launching a rocket in less than 30 min to the moon from Virginia and I told the little ones we were going to see if we could see it.  It should be visible from much of the East coast.
03:09:16 <Zhivago> But now all the world's a posix. :)
03:10:12 <Zhivago> Rather, all the world's aposix. :)
03:10:14 <|3b|> gleag: CL doesn't have any concept of "natural byte size" that i remember though
03:10:39 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
03:11:00 <|3b|> so seems more reasonable they would have used something other than "unbounded integer" to designate "arbitrarily bounded integer"
03:11:48 <gleag> I think I've seen similar conventions elsewhere in CL.
03:12:15 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
03:12:25 <gleag> Anyway, if it's not what I think, what else is it supposed to be?
03:12:33 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp
03:12:47 <|3b|> it could be some implementation specific encoding of unbounded integers
03:13:04 <|3b|> which is what i would expect, if there is nothing explicit saying otherwise
03:13:22 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
03:13:42 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:14:02 <gleag> That sounds very un-useful, compared to my idea.
03:14:13 <pjb> The atomic type specifier unsigned-byte denotes the same type as is denoted by the type specifier (integer 0 *).
03:14:22 <pjb> That's pretty clear, no?
03:14:26 <nydel> anyone interested in ai programming, parsing language into some sort of structure a chatbot-type-thing can understand so it can create ideas thru recombination etc etc
03:14:42 <pjb> the natural byte size for CL is 
03:14:44 <gleag> pjb: In general, yes.
03:14:57 <nydel> there's gotta be a much better solution than eliza and other nonsense like that "aiml" language
03:15:09 <pjb> nydel: yep, interested.  But not paid for it.
03:15:09 <gleag> pjb: But I'm still not convinced that this is not a special case, since it doesn't make much sense to me in this case.
03:15:28 <pjb> And even, most people paid to do AI nowadays are not paid for that either :-(
03:15:31 <nydel> pjb: hoho ;)
03:15:47 <nydel> pjb what if eliza's rules were regular expressions
03:16:01 <nydel> instead of left middle right
03:16:25 <pjb> That wouldn't change much.
03:16:32 <gleag> Partly because an arbitrary bounded subtype of signed-byte is still a signed-byte, so the typespec wouldn't be wrong, technically.
03:16:32 <pjb> that wouldn't make much of a difference.
03:16:36 <Bike> most eliza implementations use regexes, don't they
03:16:37 <pjb> this wouldn't change much.
03:16:41 <nydel> she'd still be a parrot
03:16:44 <Bike> and by "most" i mean "mine and some other person's"
03:16:55 <nydel> well i have another idea
03:17:17 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
03:17:30 <pjb> Have a look at neural networks and statistical machine learning.
03:17:32 <nydel> what if we start with a set of archetypal ideas -- maybe the tarot cards, or some other existing set (egyptian panethon? jungian sets? i don't know)
03:18:11 <Bike> nydel is fast on the path towards llull-level artificial intelligence
03:18:18 <pjb> nydel: hand-crafted ontologies only go so far: they don't really solve the problem of machine learning.  If you drop your robot in another culture, with another ontology and another language, it'll be a dead machine.
03:18:20 <nydel> we can parse the language well-enough then use recognition of phrases and words to associate each idea in terms of like 50-100 pre-set ideas
03:18:23 <nydel> trees thereof
03:18:58 <pjb> nydel: llull-level was ca 1300 AD.
03:19:13 <|3b|> gleag: what part of "writing data you are working with to a file" doesn't sound useful?
03:19:27 <nydel> pjb that's a great point -- if i have an archetype, let's say "the mother" or something.. the machine would have to arrive at recognition thru word association wouldn't it.
03:19:37 <nydel> is there any other way aside from word association
03:19:47 <gleag> |3b|: It's too vague. What about the portability of the files?
03:19:55 <pjb> nydel: nowadays, in some contries, there's no "the mother" anymore.  There's "Parent 1" and "Parent 2".
03:19:58 <|3b|> they already aremn'
03:19:59 <|3b|> aren't portable
03:20:09 <nydel> pjb: okay how about "conflict"
03:20:23 <nydel> archetype that isn't going anywhere. generic.
03:20:24 <|3b|> they might be sign-magnitude mixed endian etc
03:20:30 <gleag> Even internal implementation-specific details bother people sometimes, differences between arbitrary file formats for data exchange would have to be maddening.
03:20:56 <pjb> nydel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Llull
03:21:01 ehu` [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
03:21:03 <nydel> how could i have my bot read something and spit back "there's a conflict. it involves {another archetype}. those two archetypes are related to {another}"
03:21:14 <|3b|> that's why we have defacto standardized on (unsigned-byte 8) files for portability
03:21:15 <nydel> pjb: thanks give me a moment to read
03:21:28 <gleag> |3b|: What I meant was that it's generally expected that you can dump a stream on one machine and read it ono another.
03:21:35 <|3b|> not when CL was written
03:22:01 <gleag> Saying "you can dump arbitrary-sized integer into files in whatever way you want" isn't conducive to data exchange.
03:22:03 <pjb> nydel: have a look at cs.bham.ac.uk/~jxb/NN/l17.pdf
03:22:14 <Bike> yeah, and that's not even true of fasls.
03:22:23 <|3b|> neither is supporting filesystems with different sized addressable units
03:22:47 <nydel> pjb: thanks, looking at that now too. ---- i'm not immediately seeing llull's direct relevance
03:22:48 <pjb> gleag: well, CL doesn't even mandate that implementations be able to write files readable by themselves in the next version!
03:22:50 <|3b|> or not specifying endianness, format for signed data, etc
03:23:03 <pjb> fasl file often are not compatible from one version to another of the same implementation.
03:23:07 <pjb> Same for binary files.
03:23:38 <pjb> We're just lucky that  (unsigned-byte 8) works well enough on 8-bit char POSIX systems to pass data on to other implementations.
03:23:41 <nydel> pjb: that 2nd link is broken for me
03:23:52 <gleag> That may be true, but a large part of these things gets rectified by using a common architecture, for example.
03:24:00 <pjb> nydel: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~jxb/NN/l17.pdf
03:24:06 <Bike> nydel: the point i was making, in a somewhat sly way, was that the ontology stuff you're talking about is how people thought intelligence worked for literally centuries, and it never quite worked out and is kind of daft to do now.
03:24:14 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.38.254.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:24:15 <pjb> Damned google, now they botch the urls.
03:24:18 <nydel> pjb thanks
03:24:23 <gleag> So usinx x86 means two's complement integers, little endian, 8-bit bytes, and IEE-754 FPs
03:24:34 <pjb> Same as damned firefox/iceweasel, now they botch or edit uris :-(
03:24:42 <gleag> But you still don't have a common format for arbitrary sized ints.
03:24:47 <nydel> Bike: well, see now, i'm autistic. and i used to be very low-functioning until i discovered the tarot cards.
03:25:06 <|3b|> gleag: that isn't what CL was written for though
03:25:08 <nydel> Bike: i can't think in words or what i'm told are normal ideative units. i have to think in this set of 78 ideas
03:25:20 <nydel> Bike: i thought maybe a machine could work like i do
03:25:25 <|3b|> and not like characters encodings are specified either
03:25:34 <pjb> nydel: that said, ontologies, and "symbolic" AI like eliza can still work, ie. give satisfying results, notably in restricted domains.
03:25:51 <gleag> |3b|: It isn't, but still, is there any place in the standard that actually says what the un-sized byte type specifiers are supposed to mean?
03:25:53 <|3b|> or worse, line endings
03:26:04 <pjb> It's just that it's not up to the scale of the Internet and the amount of data we have nowadays.
03:26:10 <|3b|> you mean what does "unsigned-byte" mean?
03:26:15 <|3b|> clhs unsigned-byte
03:26:15 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm
03:26:32 <pjb> nydel: https://www.coursera.org/courses?search=machine%20learning
03:26:36 <gleag> I meant what unsigned-byte means in the :element-type parameter.
03:26:43 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:26:47 <nydel> pjb: mostly i would just like something that takes in ideas, recognizes or identifies them, then combines them into new ideas.
03:26:50 <pjb> nydel: https://www.coursera.org/courses?orderby=upcoming&search=artificial%20intelligence
03:27:16 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
03:27:26 <|3b|> barring anything contradicting that, i can't see any justification for meaning anything other than unsigned-byte
03:27:33 <pjb> nydel: you can have fun doing that.  The problems would be to define what's an idea, and once you have a definition, to come with a way to combine them.
03:27:35 <nydel> pjb: wonderful, i've searched for this exact content with little success - thank you
03:27:59 <nydel> pjb: well for me every idea is a tarot card, or a tree of tarot cards.
03:28:31 <nydel> pjb: but for an ai entity to make a "card" or "card-tree" structure i guess it would have to use something stupid like word association
03:29:34 <|3b|> and there is already :default for "determined by the file system, possibly based on the file" which could reasonably mean "preferred word size" if there is no file-system specific value
03:30:38 <nydel> something i wanna mention though is that i stumbled onto the idea of markov chains by myself at an early age
03:30:58 <|3b|> sbcl seems to interpret it as (unsigned-byte 8), so there could be something more specific somewhere in the spec
03:30:58 <nydel> i noticed that certain tarot cards DO tend to occur after certain others
03:31:00 <gleag> And what does "based on the file" mean? ;/
03:31:03 <pjb> nydel: have also a look at https://www.groksolutions.com/ and http://numenta.org/
03:31:18 <|3b|> gleag: whatever the implementation wants it to :p
03:31:40 <|3b|> gleag: or the platform, back when OS had record types and such baked into the filesystems
03:31:55 <pjb> nydel: the thing, is that symbolic computation is an emerging property of the natural neural network of our brains.
03:32:33 <|3b|> or could be a lisp machine that stored the element-type in the file
03:32:37 <nydel> pjb: wow such links - welll it's gotta be christmas in some alternate universe
03:32:38 <pjb> There's a big part of the brain that works statistically.  But at the higher level conscious functions are symbolic, and we can (very slowly) use logic and reasoning.
03:33:31 <gleag> |3b|: If I hear anyone talking to me about the "need to increase diversity" in the following days, that person won't finish the sentence before dropping dead! :)
03:33:32 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@65-130-17-108.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/]
03:33:42 <nydel> pjb: that's why i want to put my energy into this. i can't do the statistically stuff very well or at all. before my "autistic set" was the tarot cards, it was dinosaurs. that did NOT work socially!
03:34:13 <nydel> i wonder if since i am immersed in symbolic thinking all the time then i could be a unique perspective for ai
03:34:30 <pjb> Programming in lisp, you can simulate those higher level symbolic reasoning.  From the 60's to the late 70's a lot of research advanced symbolic AI.  Unfortunately, while this led to programs like chess players, or maxima/mathematica, this symbolic layer is not good enough for natural language understanding, for common sense, for body driving, natural object recognition, and a lot of things that brains in dumb animals can do easily.
03:34:44 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100]
03:34:45 <pjb> Ie. the smart intelligence is of low value, you want dumb intelligence. :-)
03:35:01 <Zhivago> Not to mention that people are also pretty lousy at symbolic reasoning.
03:35:16 <Zhivago> One might wonder if symbolic reasoning is perhaps not very practical.
03:35:40 <nydel> when i say that i am thinking "trumps i -> trumps 0 -> 7 of coins -> 7 of cups -> 4 of coins -> trumps 20 -> trumps i upside-down"
03:35:50 <pjb> nydel: well, you can do statistical too.  Those courses teach you the maths needed, and you can use cloud computing to implement it.  Amazon and other even provide nvidia CPUs for the highly parallel computing needed for that ;-)
03:35:56 <gleag> Zhivago: depends. if you invest the time and effort, you'll succeed in the reasoning process, even though you'll be slower than the computer.
03:36:07 <gleag> But so far, it doesn't work the other way round.
03:36:33 <pjb> nydel: http://www.nvidia.com/object/gpu-cloud-computing-services.html
03:37:40 <nydel> hah wow
03:37:50 <pjb> nydel: as I said, you can archive results.  The only problem is that those results have been archived and have been determined by the society of beeing of limited value.
03:38:07 -!- eighths77 [~eighths77@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: eighths77]
03:38:15 *gleag* writes down a note to experimentally determine what the various implementation do with the unsized byte specifiers in open and to report back.
03:38:40 <|3b|> sbcl interprets it as unsigned-byte 8, not sure what ccl is doing with it
03:38:48 *gleag* , however, has to go to sleep right now. :)
03:38:59 <pjb> On the other hand, statistical analysis give good practical results.  For example, in traduction. Symbolic traduction fails as soon as you get out of technical (formal) domains.  But google can do translations by using statistical correlations of word sequences!
03:39:01 <nydel> well not in all cases pjb. one notable was work we did at university santa cruz. we used sets of music theory compositional archetypes to write new pieces in the styles of whichever composer we fed the program as input.
03:39:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
03:39:14 <gleag> Five AM!
03:39:25 <gleag> And I'm not referring to the testing framework! :)
03:39:33 <pjb> nydel: yes, music is mostly symbolic, so it's a good domain for it.
03:39:35 <nydel> it was amazing, we could listen to 10k new mazurkas by "after-Chopin" or waltzes by "after-Debussy" etc
03:39:48 <pjb> But some kinds of music are less symbolic. Stochastic compositon, jazz, etc.
03:40:23 <Bike> gleag: 'night
03:40:32 <nydel> we had success with stranger neo composers such as phillip glass & steve reich too
03:40:33 <|3b|> clisp apparently interprets it as unsigned-byte 8 also
03:40:37 chainlike37 [~chainlike@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
03:40:37 <gleag> Nighty!
03:40:37 <nydel> when i say "success" here
03:40:43 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odcházím]
03:40:50 *|3b|* should be asleep too
03:41:18 <nydel> i mean that students at juliard music were presented with a piece by the composer (something not well-known but good-ish) and an equally good-ish piece by our AI
03:41:43 <nydel> they couldn't pick with accuracy over 50% except in the case of Bach for some reason we've yet to determine.
03:41:47 <Zhivago> Maybe music is like fine wine -- mostly expectation and bullshit?
03:41:48 <pjb> Well, external-format designators are implementation dependant.  it is probably good that they don't try to write infinite sized integers
03:42:34 <pjb> Zhivago: may be the whole universe is like that!
03:42:35 <nydel> Zhivago: ooo, probably. and i made that case. so afterward i was allowed to select 10 students i thought weren't full of crap
03:42:38 <nydel> same results
03:43:08 <nydel> couldn't tell on any composer except bach
03:43:13 <Zhivago> How did it go if you told them which was produced by machine and human, and then reversed the judgement on another set?
03:44:05 <nydel> i'm sorry.. reversed the judgement on another set?
03:44:12 <Zhivago> Lied to them.
03:44:27 <Zhivago> Claimed that the machine generated music was human generated and vice versa.
03:44:34 <nydel> their task was to determine which was which
03:44:55 <nydel> i don't think we ever told them whether they were correct (individually)
03:45:00 <Zhivago> Fair enough.
03:45:13 <nydel> but wait i think you're onto something i didn't think of
03:45:38 <pjb> What about interpretation?  Where the score interpreted both by human orchestra or by sequencers?
03:45:48 <|3b|> "trained on some human data" doesn't exactly sounds like "machine generated" to me
03:45:58 <nydel> are you talking about gauging reactions of two groups, one told the truth and one told the opposite of the truth (vis a vis which compositions they are instructed to react to is written by composer & which by AI)
03:46:13 <pjb> Yes.
03:46:18 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-250-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
03:46:25 <pjb> Kind of reverse Turing Test.
03:46:27 *|3b|* could claim a photo of a painting is "machine generated" based on human version
03:46:28 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-145-193.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
03:46:53 <nydel> pjb: i selected a student to preform the scores, a proficient player, in the dark regarding which were fakes
03:46:55 <|3b|> more fair test would be to train on whatever was available to the composer
03:46:58 <pjb> |3b|: http://all-that-is-interesting.com/e-david-robot-painter
03:47:24 <nydel> i thought that was better than levelling the playing field by doing midi or other automated stuff
03:47:36 <|3b|> pjb: not saying it is false, just that it isn't being demonstrated
03:48:59 <nydel> also we oddly found no "they pick the second piece" stuff
03:49:02 <nydel> isn't that weird?
03:49:16 <nydel> i was baffled by that. i thought for sure they would prefer the second piece.
03:49:56 <nydel> wait i can't say that for sure. we may have found that in the large groups. but not in my two groups of 10s.
03:49:56 *|3b|* is saying that at best you only have demonstrated an interesting compression format for delivering music to people who don't know the music :)
03:50:35 <|3b|> input music a, output something test groups can't distinguish from music a (without hearing a first)
03:50:50 <nydel> not that simple |3b|
03:50:57 <nydel> input repetory a. not piece a.
03:51:16 <|3b|> same thing for my point
03:51:20 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:51:43 <nydel> okay then |3b| how about this
03:51:57 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
03:52:26 <nydel> if i send you 50 haikus i write tonight, can you write a program that writes 5 in the same style then have #lisp decide whether they can tell the difference?
03:52:41 <nydel> or is that an absurd challenge
03:52:44 <nydel> ;)
03:52:45 *|3b|* has no idea
03:52:47 <pjb> It's not absurd.
03:53:45 <|3b|> though i'd expect haiku to be easier than arbitrary text (assuming you aren't a noted haiku author)
03:53:46 <nydel> pjb: could you do it? if i pay you $100 to try, $200 if your pieces either win or are indistinguishable? hehe
03:53:54 *|3b|* would expect music to be even easier than that though
03:54:52 <nydel> classical music to be easier than poetry to generate? that seems ridiculous to me.
03:55:00 *|3b|* expects i could write a program to write at least as good haiku as i could write though
03:55:17 <Fare> bad poetry is probably easier to generate
03:55:19 <nydel> (i say this because if an idea seems ridiculous to me i've lost neutrality and need a moment to consider the pov such that i no longer find it ridiculous)
03:55:20 <Fare> good poetry, much harder
03:55:21 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
03:55:26 <nydel> yes, yes Fare
03:55:45 <nydel> random notes, or 3-chord punk rock etc... probably not hard to generate
03:56:02 <nydel> you could probably get away with using markov chains actually
03:56:02 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has left #lisp
03:56:45 <nydel> but the music of tchaikovsky? or tool?
03:57:35 <nydel> i'd be able to generate poetry by after-Angelou way before music by after-Maynard James Keenan
03:58:00 <|3b|> it also depends on the style of poetry
03:58:12 <|3b|> (and probably the style of music)
03:58:27 <nydel> |3b|: i regret picking haiku because of the syllable requisite
03:58:38 *|3b|* was more thinking of the density
03:58:41 <nydel> i mean, i meant to pick something that would be really fast
03:58:54 <|3b|> computers are good at counting things :p
03:58:55 <Zhivago> Rap might work.
04:03:12 <|3b|> i think part of my point is that text has more layers that have to be correct
04:03:50 <|3b|> it has to have words that fit syntactically, then the whole has to make sense, then you might add some emotional connotations, or avoid constructs that would have bad connotations
04:04:11 <|3b|> while 'syntactically correct' classical music would be accepted as is
04:04:35 <Zhivago> That why I suggested rap. It's mostly gibberish to start with.
04:04:40 <|3b|> particularly when presented as "this is something by someone famous, but not good enough that you would have heard of it while attending juliard"
04:05:35 <|3b|> Zhivago: i'd expect freestyle rap (composed live during performance) to be relatively amenable to generation, but the better rap has same problems as other poetry
04:05:46 <nydel> |3b|: i need to make the point that the classical composers repertoires are //so// vast that //nobody// memorizes any in entirety
04:06:14 <nydel> it's not like "here's a chopin mazurka that you don't know because it's not worth anything"
04:06:40 <|3b|> i don't mean worthless, i just mean not in the top few
04:07:12 <nydel> the top few, come now..
04:07:29 <|3b|> did you get the assignments from the "compose a chopin mazurka" class and see how they compared? that would be a better test
04:07:30 <nydel> moonlight sonata by beethoven?
04:08:23 <|3b|> ?
04:08:24 <nydel> yes! thank you for asking. we did assign post-graduates working toward musical doctorates (yes, possible. UCSC) to write mazurkas by chopin
04:08:38 <nydel> juliard recognized the reals and fakes
04:11:08 <|3b|> i mean compare the student ones to the computer ones
04:11:22 <|3b|> though i guess they should pass that too
04:11:36 igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@65.130.17.108] has joined #lisp
04:14:16 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
04:15:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp
04:15:23 <nydel> i don't know whether anyone did that.. certainly worthwhile, we may not have had time. i'm asking
04:16:00 <nydel> |3b|: what is your interest with lisp or computers etc (by the way)
04:16:20 *|3b|* isn't sure i even have a point at this point and should have been asleep a while ago, so i'll stop participating in the off-topic...
04:16:43 *|3b|* uses CL for general programming, graphics in particular, eventually trying to expand to games
04:16:45 <stassats> nydel: i bet |3b| in it for the money and women
04:17:12 <nydel> for shizzle, or whatever very-white people say
04:18:24 <nydel> graphics! that's great. i'm excited about anyone using commonlisp for anything with a graphic interface. are you doing 3d games?
04:18:41 <nydel> stassats: hello there! how are yous
04:18:54 <|3b|> that is the goal, but i tend to get distracted writing libraries and tools when i should just use existing stuff :/
04:19:35 *|3b|* is trying to focus on getting caught back up to the state of the art on real-time graphics for the moment
04:20:16 -!- ebw [~user@g226140082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
04:20:23 <|3b|> that and trying to figure out what about most oculus rift demos makes me sick :/
04:20:35 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:21:11 ebw [~user@g226140082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
04:21:56 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:22:21 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
04:26:48 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]]
04:30:02 <nydel> sometimes i feel like a doof using libraries i haven't written before, hehe
04:30:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
04:31:06 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
04:35:19 -!- ebw [~user@g226140082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:35:31 alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp
04:36:26 -!- banannagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
04:42:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
04:46:08 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
04:47:13 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dyukohwhaaeklyga] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:47:47 k0001 [~k0001@host97.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
04:52:18 ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp
04:55:18 Aerolitu` [~Aerolitus@177.39.189.243] has joined #lisp
04:55:56 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574ed7b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
04:56:36 nicdev` [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp
04:56:38 reb`` [user@nat/google/x-jgzujklzggcxmxmq] has joined #lisp
04:57:59 djinni`_ [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp
04:58:04 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:58:20 cruxeter1us [cruxtech@secspeed.com] has joined #lisp
04:58:34 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp
04:58:39 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp
04:59:24 willyfro1 [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has joined #lisp
04:59:50 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:50 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:50 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:50 -!- Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:59:51 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:59:52 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB]
04:59:52 -!- reb` [user@nat/google/x-nbdlrultfaajdehw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:59:52 -!- sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:59:53 -!- cruxeternus [cruxtech@secspeed.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:54 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574ed7b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:56 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:57 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:59:59 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:00:01 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp
05:00:36 -!- |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:00:41 |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has joined #lisp
05:01:14 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp
05:02:08 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp
05:03:49 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp
05:04:39 -!- effy [~quassel@123.122.69.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
05:07:33 mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
05:08:15 eff__ [~quassel@114.252.55.221] has joined #lisp
05:11:04 eff____ [~quassel@114.246.100.143] has joined #lisp
05:11:22 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:12:00 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
05:13:40 -!- eff__ [~quassel@114.252.55.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:14:50 eff__ [~quassel@222.129.234.40] has joined #lisp
05:17:38 -!- eff____ [~quassel@114.246.100.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:18:50 Dio_ [~dio@host48-78-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp
05:22:19 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp
05:26:27 eff___ [~quassel@222.131.154.131] has joined #lisp
05:26:27 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d3f0:6594:d51:6094:ffec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:27:14 -!- eff__ [~quassel@222.129.234.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:28:11 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017]
05:29:10 -!- segmond [~segmond@99.102.148.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
05:29:26 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:34:23 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
05:34:24 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
05:36:30 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:36:49 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
05:36:52 eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp
05:38:17 -!- Aerolitu` [~Aerolitus@177.39.189.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:39:05 Aerolitu` [~Aerolitus@177.39.189.243] has joined #lisp
05:39:46 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:40:04 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:40:36 nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp
05:41:57 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
05:47:32 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:47:42 -!- Dio_ [~dio@host48-78-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:48:06 nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp
06:03:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
06:03:49 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:04:23 andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp
06:04:28 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp
06:09:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp
06:21:23 -!- macdice` [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
06:29:50 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp
06:33:21 -!- ehu` [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:33:27 ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
06:35:17 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
06:35:20 -!- ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:36:49 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp
06:41:28 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:42:43 milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp
06:43:08 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß]
06:44:00 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75db95.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
06:45:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-17.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp
06:46:49 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:59:09 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:59:41 milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp
07:01:51 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
07:03:40 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:04:23 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:04:59 -!- andy_arv` [~user@201-34-28-134.cbace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:05:09 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp
07:10:07 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.148.88] has joined #lisp
07:12:38 milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp
07:15:48 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:16:03 nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp
07:16:53 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:20:20 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:21:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.148.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
07:21:52 ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
07:22:05 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
07:23:19 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp
07:27:57 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp
07:28:25 alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp
07:31:00 stardiviner [~stardivin@60.177.243.87] has joined #lisp
07:31:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
07:31:51 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp
07:32:21 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp
07:35:25 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
07:36:04 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.43.219] has joined #lisp
07:39:23 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@60.177.243.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:39:48 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.43.219] has left #lisp
07:42:29 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has joined #lisp
07:44:04 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:50:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:50:26 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp
07:52:55 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host97.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
07:53:50 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
07:58:00 <theos> hey
07:58:25 <theos> are there bindings for ioquake3 engine?
08:00:02 d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has joined #lisp
08:00:33 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
08:14:01 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B22D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
08:14:07 -!- ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
08:16:38 ehu [~Erik@109.34.135.103] has joined #lisp
08:21:31 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.34.135.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
08:27:22 ehu [~Erik@109.34.135.103] has joined #lisp
08:30:56 -!- Teratogen [leontopod@unaffiliated/teratogen] has quit [Quit: I always have coffee when I watch radar!]
08:33:39 paines [~paines@ip-37-201-104-200.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp
08:33:52 <paines> hi
08:36:55 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-015-229.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp
08:37:11 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe234.net137-33.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp
08:39:36 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:a5d3:b84b:64c2:861] has joined #lisp
08:40:18 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
08:45:35 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp
08:46:26 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp
08:47:53 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
08:52:45 bitonic` [~user@ppp-188-144.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp
09:02:19 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:08:21 tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has joined #lisp
09:08:26 stardiviner [~stardivin@60.177.243.87] has joined #lisp
09:08:59 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:09:22 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp
09:09:43 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp
09:14:16 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:17:58 ebw [~user@g226140082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
09:20:54 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:a5d3:b84b:64c2:861] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:21:21 -!- milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:21:53 milosn [~milosn@cable-178-149-0-183.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp
09:22:07 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:a5d3:b84b:64c2:861] has joined #lisp
09:27:30 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@60.177.243.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
09:27:36 paul424 [~chatzilla@91.207.68.2] has joined #lisp
09:30:35 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
09:31:21 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye]
09:33:09 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:33:26 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
09:33:52 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c02b-45.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp
09:35:26 andreh_ [~andreh@186.213.248.20] has joined #lisp
09:35:46 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
09:39:52 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp
09:40:19 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp
09:48:10 -!- paines [~paines@ip-37-201-104-200.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:49:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com]
09:50:32 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-247.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp
09:50:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-247.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host]
09:50:32 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp
09:51:03 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:52:37 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-rusdhlebwpnlfkak] has joined #lisp
09:54:22 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
09:56:25 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood]
09:57:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c02b-45.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
09:59:54 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:05:28 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp
10:07:25 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp
10:12:46 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
10:14:56 <pjb> theos: you can easily make bindings yourself with swig.
10:15:24 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood]
10:17:15 <pjb> nydel: it's not a question of money.  I would already have done it this night if I had the time.
10:17:30 <theos> pjb i see. thanks
10:18:11 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:18:16 <pjb> That is, as long as it's not a C++ heavy on templates API.
10:18:37 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp
10:18:50 <theos> that was for me?
10:19:38 <hitecnologys> Greetings!
10:20:06 <pjb> theos: yes ;-)
10:20:21 <theos> :<
10:20:23 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp
10:20:47 <theos> pjb i think ioquake3 is C++
10:21:12 <theos> dont we have a CL 3d game engine? :D
10:21:26 <pjb> Without templates, swig is able to deal with C++ good enough.
10:22:01 <pjb> theos: better ask that to #lispgames, they know exactly the current situation.
10:22:30 <theos> 41 people there :S
10:22:51 maxter_ [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp
10:23:07 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:23:16 maxter__ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp
10:23:28 <hitecnologys> Which project's code do you recommend to read to see not typical use for metaclasses? I'm just curious to see how people use them except for storing data somewhere (like postmodern and some other libs do).
10:27:05 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:28:52 ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
10:28:59 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
10:30:34 <pjb> I would start with find ~/quicklisp/ -name \*.lisp -exec grep -niH metaclass {} \;
10:31:04 <pjb> Now, of course, after having run (com.informatimago.pjb:QUICK-INSTALL-ALL)
10:33:27 <hitecnologys> Hm, sounds like a good idea.
10:34:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-17.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:35:09 <hitecnologys> Thanks.
10:35:36 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.234.54] has joined #lisp
10:36:17 <pjb> hitecnologys: quick-install-all: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/quicklisp/DVMR82RQHYQ/PJY0H1lyrD8J
10:36:40 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:38:52 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:39:42 <hitecnologys> That will to take lots of time...
10:40:21 <pjb> Yes, the first time. But then you only have the monthly updates to do.
10:40:39 <pjb> But indeed, better do it with ccl than with sbcl or clisp.
10:41:16 <hitecnologys> Why?
10:41:50 <pjb> faster compiler.
10:42:08 <pjb> But perhaps clisp is the fastest, I'd have to check again.
10:42:41 <hitecnologys> Hm.
10:43:47 <hitecnologys> But it only downloads everything, why does it depend on compiler speed?
10:44:27 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
10:53:02 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:54:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.234.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:55:33 -!- maxter__ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
10:56:03 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
10:57:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:a5d3:b84b:64c2:861] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz]
10:57:32 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:a5d3:b84b:64c2:861] has joined #lisp
10:58:22 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp
11:01:06 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:03:57 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp
11:05:30 -!- andreh_ [~andreh@186.213.248.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
11:05:48 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp
11:06:01 ejbs [~user@h-30-80.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp
11:10:27 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:13:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:14:42 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
11:14:44 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp
11:16:06 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
11:19:11 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:19:21 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-170-230-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp
11:23:10 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds]
11:25:53 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp
11:26:14 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
11:27:03 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B22D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:28:33 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:a5d3:b84b:64c2:861] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz]
11:30:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
11:32:14 keltvek [~keltvek@cl-1868.mbx-01.si.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp
11:32:15 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@cl-1868.mbx-01.si.sixxs.net] has quit [Changing host]
11:32:15 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp
11:32:41 <pjb> hitecnologys: oh, right, just downloads. It's that I have a command to later load everything and save a big image :-)
11:33:40 -!- willyfro1 is now known as Willyfrog
11:38:11 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:40:42 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
11:41:04 -!- mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:43:18 -!- Aerolitu` [~Aerolitus@177.39.189.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:43:26 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-170-230-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
11:44:41 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp
11:44:48 ASau` [~user@p5797EA3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
11:44:50 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp
11:46:18 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
11:47:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:48:42 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96BB5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
11:50:50 -!- ejbs [~user@h-30-80.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
11:53:31 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:53:57 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:c015:c65b:2821:95e0] has joined #lisp
11:55:20 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:56:25 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
11:56:53 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp
11:58:53 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-170-230-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp
11:59:28 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:00:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-80.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: bbl]
12:00:34 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:01:04 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp
12:02:28 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:02:40 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp
12:02:53 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp
12:02:54 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:03:09 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp
12:03:44 <genkinodenki> can anyone help me figure out why opengl isn't working... I get: Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER datum: NIL>
12:04:06 <genkinodenki> when I try to create an sdl-window with opengl flag
12:04:37 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:04:43 <genkinodenki> (sdl::video-driver-name) -> NIL
12:05:26 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
12:05:26 <genkinodenki> (sdl-cffi::sdl-get-error) -> "X11 driver not configured with OpenGL"
12:06:00 <genkinodenki> does that mean that NIL is not configured with opengl? :3
12:06:06 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp
12:06:33 <genkinodenki> for the record AFAIK opengl is working, I can play many games
12:06:35 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
12:07:27 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp
12:07:29 <genkinodenki> sorry, wrong channel, meant to go to #lispgames. though I don't mind if anyone can help resolve this
12:08:55 <hitecnologys> pjb: ah, I see.
12:10:12 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp
12:14:21 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
12:14:54 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:15:27 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:c015:c65b:2821:95e0] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz]
12:15:30 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:16:41 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
12:18:45 -!- zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
12:23:52 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:24:07 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
12:26:49 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
12:33:59 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp
12:34:21 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
12:34:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:35:08 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
12:35:17 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
12:35:44 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:ac10:cabe:809c:d813] has joined #lisp
12:36:56 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
12:40:45 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic
12:44:13 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:47:23 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
12:49:22 knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has joined #lisp
12:49:57 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
12:52:40 -!- paul424 [~chatzilla@91.207.68.2] has quit [Quit: GG]
12:55:34 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:ac10:cabe:809c:d813] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz]
12:55:56 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
12:56:52 -!- genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:56:54 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-14-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge]
12:57:13 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
12:59:33 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp
13:02:53 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp
13:05:43 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp
13:06:39 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:07:24 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
13:07:26 WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
13:09:24 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:e46b:96cb:8851:950a] has joined #lisp
13:11:35 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Client Quit]
13:11:39 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
13:20:45 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: EvW]
13:21:29 ehu_ [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
13:22:19 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:23:27 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.34.135.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:23:40 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp
13:23:47 -!- ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:25:10 -!- ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:27:15 -!- eff___ is now known as effy
13:27:18 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:31:05 -!- ehu_ [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
13:33:11 -!- hajovonta [~user@173.248.133.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:34:28 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp
13:36:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-231.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:38:38 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev]
13:38:39 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp
13:38:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:39:25 aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp
13:40:31 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
13:43:22 -!- pjb [~t@90.24.198.19] has quit [Excess Flood]
13:43:30 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
13:43:41 pjb [~t@90.24.198.19] has joined #lisp
13:43:54 -!- pjb is now known as Guest76534
13:45:24 -!- Guest76534 is now known as pjb`
13:45:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:46:38 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz]
13:47:41 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb
13:47:53 konr` [~user@179.99.186.252] has joined #lisp
13:50:04 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias
13:50:52 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-170-230-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
13:51:23 -!- konr [~user@179.99.186.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:51:37 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.105] has joined #lisp
13:51:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.105] has quit [Changing host]
13:51:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp
13:56:53 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp
14:03:06 snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp
14:05:01 sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp
14:06:30 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:13:10 andreh_ [~andreh@186.213.248.20] has joined #lisp
14:15:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@170.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:24:10 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp
14:25:04 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:28:56 sdemarre [~serge@7.124-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp
14:31:42 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:34:03 -!- andreh_ [~andreh@186.213.248.20] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
14:35:26 -!- ebw [~user@g226140082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:36:10 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:42:13 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp
14:43:58 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
14:46:56 -!- sdemarre [~serge@7.124-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:49:54 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp
14:53:39 agumonkey [~agu@170.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp
14:54:10 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
14:59:10 -!- agumonkey [~agu@170.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
15:00:08 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp
15:01:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:09:19 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
15:09:45 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
15:09:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp
15:09:59 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp
15:15:42 <Posterdati> hi
15:15:50 <Posterdati> please is there anyone using libusb-ffi?
15:19:18 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp
15:19:26 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-206-241.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:21:12 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:21:35 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
15:21:45 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:22:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp
15:24:52 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:25:07 poppingtonic [~poppingto@212.49.88.109] has joined #lisp
15:27:07 ehu [~Erik@109.33.28.157] has joined #lisp
15:27:18 gleag_ [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp
15:27:40 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
15:30:29 <loke_erc> Posterdati: no
15:30:50 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:31:28 nbouscal [~nbouscal@pool-72-89-172-52.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
15:31:48 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-119-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp
15:32:15 paul0 [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has joined #lisp
15:32:18 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.33.28.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:32:24 ehu` [~Erik@109.33.28.157] has joined #lisp
15:32:51 ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
15:32:55 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
15:33:11 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau
15:33:17 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B22D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
15:36:32 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
15:37:04 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.8.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:37:44 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp
15:37:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC637E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
15:38:34 -!- gleag_ is now known as gleag
15:39:03 <Posterdati> loke_erc: good for you
15:39:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
15:40:19 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
15:40:45 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@pool-72-89-172-52.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has commenced electric sheep tracking protocol.]
15:41:07 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:46:50 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
15:51:48 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:54:47 foeniks [~fevon@p5499D9A3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
15:55:06 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:55:11 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp
15:56:39 konr`` [~user@179.99.187.35] has joined #lisp
15:57:22 diadara [~diadara@49.202.208.97] has joined #lisp
15:57:53 -!- konr` [~user@179.99.186.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:02:02 <hiroakip> hi, i read the book "land of lisp" and i found something i did not understand. why don't i need the "#'" when i give a higher order function a new lambda function?
16:03:59 <loke_erc> hiroakip: Because #'x is shorthand for (FUNCTION x)
16:04:25 <loke_erc> It gives a reference to the function given by x
16:05:57 <hiroakip> ah i understand now. so, when i write (lambda (x) (...)) the cl implematation nows it is a function because i lambda follows directly after an opening paren?
16:06:17 <hiroakip> -i
16:06:23 <loke_erc> well, almost
16:06:44 <loke_erc> LAMBDA is a macro
16:07:14 <loke_erc> So (lambda (x) x) expands to #'(lambda (x) x) which in turn is shorthand for (function (lambda (x) x))
16:07:22 <hiroakip> o.k. so i have to take it as it is, until i get to the chapter about macros in my book, i think
16:07:52 <hiroakip> ah, o.k. this macro appears kind of wierd, now as i see it
16:07:54 <loke_erc> And FUNCTION is a special form that takes its argument and returns something funcallable.
16:08:00 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe234.net137-33.omkc.ru] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys]
16:08:17 <hiroakip> so it does not makes no differencs if i write #' or not
16:08:18 <loke_erc> hiroakip: The LAMBDA macro didn't use to exist, so you had to write a lambda expression as #'(lambda (x) ...)
16:08:28 <loke_erc> Some people still do, myself included.
16:08:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
16:08:54 <hiroakip> ahh o.k. because i wrote it with #' until now. and i think i will keep this
16:08:57 <loke_erc> hiroakip: Correct. The fact that lambda is a macro these days makes the #' part optional for lambda forms
16:09:16 <hiroakip> unless some lisp-programmers hate me because of this :D
16:09:28 <loke_erc> However, you still need it when you want to get a function from a symbol, like this: #'CAR
16:10:35 <hiroakip> yes, so i keep the #' in front of functions, it is easier to untersand this way, i think
16:11:03 <loke_erc> hiroakip: well, you have to understand the difference between (funcall #'foo) and (funcall 'foo)
16:11:47 <hiroakip> o.k. i can't tell the difference at the moment. what is it?
16:12:10 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
16:13:09 <loke_erc> Well, 'foo is just the symbol FOO. #'foo is a reference to the function to which FOO refers. Now, if you pass a symbol to FUNCALL, it will look up the function associated with that symbol and call it, so you may ask what the difference is...
16:13:46 <loke_erc> Two major differences: Imagine this: (defun foo () ...) (defun bar () (funcall 'foo)) (defun foo () somehting-else)
16:13:58 <loke_erc> now, if you call bar, you will call the new definition of FOO
16:14:03 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp
16:14:18 <loke_erc> however, if you had written (funcall #'foo), you'd be calling the old one, since the function reference was resolved when BAR was compiled./
16:15:47 <hiroakip> reminds me of $ in C, am i right?
16:16:06 -!- Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
16:16:30 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp
16:16:32 <loke_erc> hiroakip: No. $ is just a charatcer in C, it has no special significance.
16:16:43 <loke_erc> You may be thinking of something else.
16:16:46 <loke_erc> & perhaps?
16:17:04 <hiroakip> yes, sure, sorry
16:17:28 <hiroakip> this is want i meant to say
16:17:56 <loke_erc> hiroakip: Well, I can see where you're coming from, and if you stretch the comparison reaaaly far, then yes.
16:17:56 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-244.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp
16:19:08 <hiroakip> o.k. i think i got it now. really big thanks to you, for your explanation and patience
16:19:33 <loke_erc> that's fine. I had originally planned to work on my project, or go to sleep. I couldn't choose which.
16:19:35 <gleag> loke_erc: both CCL and SBCL seem to disagree with you regarding the early binding of #'foo.
16:20:24 <gleag> loke_erc: as in, in both CCL and SBCL, both (funcall #'foo) and (funcall 'foo) call the new redefined version.
16:21:04 <loke_erc> gleag: right, my mistake. It's actually implementation-defined behaviour. I should have returned the value and then funcalled instead
16:21:55 <ski> hm, so (modulo this new `lambda' macro) a `lambda' form is not a "value expression" but a "function expression" ?
16:22:09 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp
16:22:18 <loke_erc> It's because (funcall (function ...)) is reduced in SBCL's transform directly to a call to (foo)
16:22:21 -!- diadara [~diadara@49.202.208.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:22:27 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-244.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:22:38 <ski> so would `((lambda (x) x) 0)' (in the absense of this macro) be a valid expression ?
16:22:38 <loke_erc> ski: it's not really an expression at all
16:23:41 <loke_erc> ski: it is, but merely because ((lambda ...) ...) is defined as being equal to (funcall (lambda ...)) by the spec
16:24:11 <loke_erc> ski: My understanding is that that was included for backwards compatibility with some old Lisp
16:24:43 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:24:51 <|3b|> ((lambda ...)...) is also useful for some macros/reader macros
16:25:30 <|3b|> and the LAMBDA macro expands directly to FUNCTION, no #' involved
16:25:36 <loke_erc> |3b|: so I've heard. I suppose it's for cases like (defmacro foo (f) `(,f 0))
16:25:49 <loke_erc> So you can do (foo (lambda ...))
16:25:53 <ski> loke_erc : i was imagining something like `<value expr> ::= (<function expr> <value expr>*) | (function <function expr>) | ...' and `<function expr> ::= <function identifier> | (lambda <parameter list> . <body>) | ...'
16:26:10 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp
16:26:24 <ski> but perhaps that's an inaccurate understanding
16:27:13 *|3b|* doesn't think (defun bar () (funcall #'foo)) has any implementation specific behavior in it, maybe you are thinking of when the function name is resolved in for example (mapcar 'foo ...)?
16:27:39 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:28:01 <loke_erc> |3b|: I think it's implementation-specific as to when the reference to #'foo is resolved
16:28:20 <ski> hm, really ?
16:28:27 <|3b|> loke_erc: no, it is resolved when the (function foo) is evaluated
16:29:02 <loke_erc> (function foo) is never "evaluated"
16:29:13 k0001 [~k0001@host97.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
16:29:22 <|3b|> sure it is (with special evaluation rules since it is a special form)
16:29:31 <ski> (did you really mean "evaluated" tere -- as opposed to "elaborated" or whatever the term is for the resolving of static/lexical scope)
16:30:00 <gleag> |3b|: as in, #' expands at compile time into (function ...), but (function ...) gets evaluated at run time?
16:30:22 -!- ehu` [~Erik@109.33.28.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:30:35 <ski> gleag : i think  #'<form>  expands into  (function <form>)  at read-time
16:30:36 <|3b|> gleag: #' expands at READ time to (function ...)
16:30:37 <Bike> (read-time for the first one, akshually)
16:30:42 ehu` [~Erik@109.33.28.157] has joined #lisp
16:31:11 <gleag> Well, at the end of compile time, it's already expanded, that's what I meant.
16:31:19 <Bike> yeah.
16:31:21 <ski> ok
16:31:33 <gleag> s/expanded/processed/ would probably be a better phrase...
16:31:38 <|3b|> gleag: also before compile time though, which sometimes matters
16:31:46 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
16:32:15 <|3b|> since thinking of it a happening during compilation will confuse people when they try to call COMPILE directly
16:32:24 <gleag> Regarding function redefinitions, that shouldn't change the observable behavior, though.
16:32:54 <loke_erc> gleag: Well, it can. Think about it this way: If you (funcall #'foo) and foo is inlineable, the compiler is allowed to inline the call to foo
16:32:54 <gleag> Unless it's somehow possible and/or permissible to invoke the compiler recursively between read-time and compile-time.
16:33:17 <loke_erc> gleag: I'm sure you agree with me that a function redefinition will not change the inlined code.
16:33:18 <gleag> Which sounds like a pretty good way of blowing your whole foot off.
16:33:42 <|3b|> gleag: you can read things by hand and compile them later
16:34:02 <|3b|> or create things from scratch without reading, then comp8ile it
16:34:28 <gleag> |3b|: I supposed that's not the case of evaluating (defun ... () ... #'shatever ... ) though.
16:34:29 <|3b|> if you really want to annoy maintainers, you can invoke the compiler from a reader macro for that matter
16:34:43 <ski> loke_erc : hm, and is there some statement to the effect that if you redefine a function that has been marked by the user as preferably being inlined, then you shouldn't redefine that function ?
16:35:11 <|3b|> gleag: "evaluating" sort of implies it has already been READ
16:35:14 <loke_erc> ski: sure, the exact behaviour is implementation defined
16:35:28 <ski> *nod*, as i thought, then
16:36:06 <gleag> |3b|: I meant the somewhat broader sense as in what happens between pressing ENTER in the REPL and a new prompt appeating. :)
16:36:32 <|3b|> gleag: right, but the R and E in repl are separate steps :)
16:37:24 <ski> gleag : anyway, i think |3b| meant that which function  foo  refers to in  (defun bar () (funcall #'foo))  would be resolved *before* evaluating the body of the function definition (as a consequence of calling  bar  from somewhere)
16:37:25 <|3b|> gleag: we are pretty pedantic on this channel (sometimes too much)
16:37:41 <gleag> |3b|: The Emacs menu command, however, says "evaluate S-expression" instead of "read S-expression, evaluate and print the result" :-)
16:37:51 <gleag> |3b|: Or it says something to that effect.
16:37:57 <|3b|> ski: no, i mean it should be resolved exactly when the (function foo) argument of funcall is evaluated
16:38:38 <|3b|> gleag: menu commands don't have as much space as irc messages :p
16:39:01 <|3b|> also, emacs menus are not normative parts of the CL spec
16:39:15 <gleag> :)
16:39:55 <gleag> The problem is, whenever *I* get pedantic, stassats starts fuming. :)
16:39:57 <ski> |3b| : are you talking about the resolving of  foo  to a mutable function slot (or however one says that), or are you talking about fetching the current function stored in that slot ?
16:40:01 <ski> (|3b| : sometimes it helps to set basic concepts straight. when you and the other person already know them, you can allow yourself to be less pedantic and still assume the meaning gets through)
16:40:04 <|3b|> the details are important though, if you build the wrong mental model, you will eventually waste a bunch of time trying to figure out something that would be trivial with the correct mental model
16:40:17 <gleag> So I'm not sure when to be pedantic and when not.
16:41:23 <|3b|> gleag: sometimes depends on the context, and who is involved, also how you phrase it
16:41:54 <gleag> loke_erc: Are you sure that (funcall ...) is allowed to inline anything?
16:42:19 <Bike> gleag: it is. compiler macros too.
16:42:25 <|3b|> it is allowed to do anything it wants as long as the specified semantics are preserved :)
16:42:40 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-145-193.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:42:49 <gleag> loke_erc: I'm looking at the INLINE declaration in CLHS now and it talks of "functions named by function-names", which would seem to exclude funcalls of (variable-bound) function objects.
16:43:03 <Bike> variable-bound, yes
16:43:04 <|3b|> (so for example you could do whole-program optimization, partially evaluate and inline everything, etc as long as you re-did it all when a definition changed)
16:43:16 <Bike> indeed it says "inline declarations never apply to variable bindings
16:43:26 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
16:43:31 <gleag> "inline declarations never apply to variable bindings. "
16:43:41 <|3b|> if it can prove the variable doesn't vary, it can optimize for that if it wants
16:43:48 <Bike> no variable binding in (funcall #'foo ...) though
16:44:27 <|3b|> ski: i'm talking about fetching the function named by the symbol FOO, which is what (FUNCTION FOO) does
16:44:28 <Bike> that's basically just saying (let ((foo ...)) (declare (inline foo)) ...) doesn               function-names", which would seem to exclude funcalls of (variable-bound) function objects.
16:44:28 <gleag> Bike: right, but there was talk about returning the value of #'foo and then redefining the function and calling the value later.
16:44:32 <Bike> 't work
16:44:46 <gleag> Bike: That seems to imply that you funcall a variable in that case.
16:45:24 <|3b|> right, if you store 'foo and #'foo, the latter won't change if FOO is redefined
16:45:25 <Bike> not really, a "variable" means pretty specifically a symbol bound in the variable namespace
16:45:40 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:45:47 <|3b|> *store the result of evaluating #'foo rather
16:46:00 <gleag> Bike: that doesn't make sense to me in the context of inlining functions.
16:46:18 knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has joined #lisp
16:46:57 <|3b|> ski: if you have (defun bar () (funcall (function foo))), (function foo) is evaluated when BAR is called, and the result is passed to FUNCALL, then the result of that is returned from BAR
16:46:58 <Bike> it's saying an inline /declaration/ can't apply
16:47:09 <Bike> compiler could still do some inlining on its own, possibly
16:47:37 <Posterdati> how can I create a foreign array of vector-unsigned-byte-8 ??
16:47:37 <ski> |3b| : yes, but with function redefinition, there's a distinction between when you determine *where* to fetch the function, and when you actually "dereference" and fetch it
16:47:52 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
16:48:10 <gleag> Bike: wouldn't that change the semantics of conforming programs unless the compiler kept track of redefinitions of inlined functions and recompiled stuff automatically?
16:48:12 <stassats> Posterdati: cffi:foreign-alloc
16:48:16 -!- konr`` is now known as konr
16:48:23 <stassats> cffi:with-foreign-object
16:48:24 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp
16:48:26 <|3b|> not sure what you mean by determining 'where'... there is a symbol named "FOO", it either names a function or it doesn't
16:48:33 <Posterdati> stassats: not with make-foreign-array?
16:48:38 <gleag> You can do anything you want in the implementation but you shouldn't change the observable behavior.
16:48:41 <|3b|> either way, it is completely determined by that symbol
16:48:49 <stassats> Posterdati: not
16:48:54 <ski> you can have local function definitions
16:49:14 <ski> i would assume that if you locally define  foo  then in that scope  #'foo  would refer to that locally defined function
16:49:16 <|3b|> Posterdati: an array of vectors or an array of unsigned-byte 8?
16:49:47 <Posterdati> an object of type grid:vector-unsigned-byte-8
16:50:00 <|3b|> ski: true, if there is a local lexical definition of the function, that is always resolved at compile time, and can't be redefined
16:50:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:50:15 <Bike> gleag: if we had (let ((foo (lambda ...))) (funcall foo ...)) for example, what observable behavior would change?
16:50:22 <|3b|> ski: which is another difference between #'foo and 'foo
16:50:57 <gleag> Bike: If you can prove that the  FOO binding is never mutated, sure you can inline aggresively.
16:51:05 <ski> how about different definitions of  foo  in multiple "modules" ?
16:51:17 <|3b|> Posterdati: if you are using a library that has specific types for foreign data, it probably has some way to allocate them too
16:51:27 <ski> (perhaps the symbols named  foo  involved in these cases would be distinct)
16:51:29 <gleag> Bike: I'm just not sure that the same thing applies to global definitions.
16:51:44 <|3b|> ski: symbols have identity, there can't be more than 1 of a given symbol
16:51:52 <Bike> gleag: well there's the whole undefined-to-redefine-in-a-compilation-unit thing
16:51:52 <gleag> Because these can change at any time.
16:52:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp
16:52:14 <|3b|> ski: foo:foo and bar:foo are either the same symbol (if one imports the other or both import the same symbol from somewhere else) or they are completely different
16:52:34 <ski> |3b| : ok, fine. i was suspecting that could be the case
16:52:40 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:52:56 <Posterdati> |3b|: libusb-ffi
16:53:00 <|3b|> (symbol identity is another of those subtle things it is important to get the mental model correct for)
16:53:22 knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has joined #lisp
16:53:51 Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
16:53:59 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:54:06 <ski> |3b| : so. i think i'm satisfied that the resolving of where to fetch the function is done statically, but only when actually evaluating the `function' form does it actually fetch the currently stored function
16:54:10 sdemarre [~serge@7.124-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp
16:54:17 knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has joined #lisp
16:54:42 <ski> (of course allowing implementations to optimize things so it doesn't happen exactly like this, as long as it behaves "as if")
16:54:44 <|3b|> ski: if i understand what you mean, that sounds reasonable
16:54:59 <ski> |3b| : ok. ty for your patience
16:56:55 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp
16:57:03 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has joined #lisp
16:57:37 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:57:38 <|3b|> Posterdati: maybe http://www.common-lisp.net/project/antik/antik/Functions-for-creation-of-grids.html#Functions-for-creation-of-grids ?
16:58:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:58:24 <stassats> and next time, ask questions where you tell what you're actually using
16:59:16 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:02:11 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:03:10 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06:11 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
17:08:56 jiltdil [~amit@115.240.118.138] has joined #lisp
17:09:02 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:10:06 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:17:01 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-244.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp
17:18:48 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp
17:22:56 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp
17:25:28 <oleo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/138805#3
17:25:50 <oleo> i still don't get howto emulate overflow, underflow....
17:25:57 <oleo> uhuh
17:26:02 -!- chainlike37 [~chainlike@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
17:26:54 <jiltdil> Any other method to subdasss the ERROR class than this :  (define-condition malformed-log-entry-error (error)  ((text :initarg :text :reader text)))
17:27:19 <|3b|> you apparently don't get CL either... VALUES is a bit pointless when you ignore the return value
17:27:35 <|3b|> and you can bind variables in LOOP
17:28:01 <|3b|> and FORMAT T does same as FORMAT *STANDARD-OUTPUT*
17:28:39 <|3b|> and if you don't tell people what you are trying to do, they won't be able to help with some random piece of code
17:28:50 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B22D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:29:21 <oleo> i want it to wrap around
17:29:32 <|3b|> 'it'?
17:29:43 <oleo> nah
17:29:44 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:30:00 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:30:20 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:30:34 <|3b|> and 'wrap around' to what?
17:31:22 <oleo> to its complement in 2's complement form
17:31:34 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp
17:32:00 chainlike37 [~chainlike@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
17:36:32 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-244.mycingular.net] has quit []
17:45:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:46:28 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp
17:46:41 -!- jiltdil [~amit@115.240.118.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:46:47 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host97.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:48:28 agumonkey [~agu@170.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp
17:50:06 -!- agumonkey [~agu@170.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit]
17:52:46 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
17:55:02 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317559.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp
18:01:08 segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-67-101-30.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
18:01:15 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp
18:01:18 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp
18:08:31 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp
18:08:54 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: "", said the cow]
18:09:09 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:10:03 <oleo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/138805#4
18:10:04 <oleo> ok
18:10:11 <oleo> |3b| ?
18:10:45 <stassats> downto -1?
18:11:24 <|3b|> you probably want FOR not WITH
18:11:56 <stassats> and not do (ldb (byte byte position) value) thrice
18:12:26 <oleo> ah
18:12:33 <stassats> and parenthesis are lonesome
18:12:56 <oleo> for ?
18:13:00 <oleo> 3 fors ?
18:13:03 <|3b|> yeah, looping from -1 to -1 in the shown example is a bit odd
18:13:53 <stassats> it's from 56 to -1, but position of -1 is wrong
18:14:10 <stassats> it only works because BY is greater than one
18:14:43 <|3b|> stassats: previous paste passes 8 and 9 for the key args in the example use
18:15:01 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
18:15:48 <stassats> and actually, it's not greater than one, it can be a multiple of (- size byte 1)
18:15:53 <stassats> to break
18:16:14 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:16:39 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp
18:17:06 <|3b|> aside from the problems with the code though, if you want to do 2s complement you have to do it yourself
18:17:36 <stassats> lognot?
18:19:49 *|3b|* isn't sure exactly which part of that code is supposed to cause something to "wrap around to its complement in 2's complement form"
18:20:18 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:21:07 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:21:18 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:21:41 <oleo> no part is yet
18:22:01 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!]
18:22:16 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
18:22:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:22:31 <oleo> i just did the left-right shifts and see it's just shifting out of it's byte length, in the printed representation i mean
18:22:55 <stassats> that's what it does
18:24:58 <|3b|> right, CL integers don't "wrap", they just get bigger to hold the value
18:25:16 <|3b|> they don't have any specific length
18:25:42 <gleag> Use modular arithmetics and pray that the compiler optimizes it away? :)
18:26:07 <|3b|> i think the step before that is "figure out what you are trying to do"
18:26:22 <gleag> (At least that seems like a rather obvious optimization a compiler could make with modulo 2**x forms.)
18:26:41 <|3b|> gleag: sbcl does a bunch of optimizations like that
18:34:05 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp
18:37:07 <oleo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/138805#5 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138805#6
18:38:19 <|3b|> if you want them updated every iteration you use FOR, not WITH
18:39:14 <oleo> hmm
18:39:24 *|3b|* still has no idea what you are trying to do though
18:41:59 *|3b|* wonders why sbcl doesn't complain about the invalid byte specifier
18:42:39 <stassats> -1 is only reached in certain cases
18:43:12 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:43:23 namtsui` [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:44:14 <stassats> :size 8 :byte 9 is one of them
18:44:31 <|3b|> right, in that specific case
18:45:11 <stassats> it just doesn't check it
18:45:25 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
18:46:40 <stassats> it's declared as explicit-check, which it doesn't do properly
18:48:22 <stassats> but the spec doesn't prohibit (ldb (byte (expt 2 70) (expt 2 70)) 10)
18:49:28 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp
18:49:56 knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has joined #lisp
18:49:57 <|3b|> yeah, noticed that unsigned-byte 62 in the error from using -1 at repl
18:50:22 <mathrick> <gleag> Use modular arithmetics and pray that the compiler optimizes it away? :) <-- SBCL does, very aggressively in fact
18:50:57 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: memory access finished by eternal darkness]
18:52:50 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.145] has joined #lisp
18:52:57 <stassats> removing explicit-check will also check the integer argument, even when the called function will call, the solution will be to add declarations to the body for size and posn
18:54:11 <stassats> s/will call/will check it/
18:56:16 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:58:01 zophy [~sy@host-49-142-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp
18:58:47 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp
18:59:34 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
19:00:17 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
19:00:23 -!- Zagaba [~user@modemcable048.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
19:01:11 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:01:37 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp
19:01:42 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
19:02:09 <stassats> |3b|: the fix will be committed once the test suit is completed
19:02:26 <|3b|> cool
19:03:26 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:04:17 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:05:15 smithzv [~user@c-50-165-5-61.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:05:30 Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has joined #lisp
19:05:31 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-73-110.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:05:49 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
19:06:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:07:16 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp
19:08:40 <gleag> I know test hats, but test suits sound like a much more thorough approach! :)
19:09:06 <gleag> (Couldn't resist...)
19:11:03 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-136-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
19:11:21 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:12:36 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:12:47 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp
19:13:14 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:14:41 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
19:14:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:14:50 <stassats> |3b|: except for the (expt 2 70) bit
19:14:51 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has joined #lisp
19:15:12 <|3b|> yeah, that seems a bit less important to fix
19:15:30 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur]
19:15:38 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp
19:16:25 -!- zophy [~sy@host-49-142-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
19:17:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre
19:17:39 <|3b|> though i guess if you tried you might be able to fit an integer with more than fixnum bits in ram on 32bit sbcl
19:17:41 Zagaba [~user@modemcable048.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp
19:18:09 *|3b|* assumes the limit is 'fixnum' and not 62 bits everywhere
19:18:11 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike
19:18:24 <stassats> 29 bits on 32
19:19:23 <stassats> and it's 63 bits on 64-bit sbcl, 62 is for the positive ones
19:20:32 <stassats> (29 is for positives too)
19:21:01 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:21:06 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp
19:21:43 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:22:03 <gleag> So the architecture that doesn't need it as badly has the narrow tag one bit narrower?
19:23:25 ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:26:24 <stassats> |3b|: the largest bignum you can create is 56 digits on x86
19:26:29 <stassats> so, no problem there!
19:26:54 <stassats> err, that's for x86-64, of course
19:27:12 <ubikation> Hello! I am 24 and very desperate for a job programming in CL but I don't know where to find one. I am a new programmer, but I am happy to do anything to get the job done. I'm happy to work for $15 an hour; I just really want a chance to prove myself and to work with other smart programmers. I've been working on this https://github.com/ubikation/chemicalambda if you want to see what I've been trying to do recently. Thank you!
19:27:22 <stassats> 24 digits on x86
19:28:00 <gleag> Ugh...56 digits? And 24?
19:28:24 <|3b|> those 'digits' are machine words, right?
19:28:30 <gleag> I can easily do (expt 10 100) and it doesn't barf at me.
19:28:38 <stassats> those digits are bignum digits
19:28:42 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:28:46 <oleo> aha
19:28:50 <gleag> And how long are those?
19:28:53 <gleag> 32b?
19:29:10 <stassats> and that number is because the bignum length is encoded in the widetag, 8 bits for the widetag, the rest is what's left
19:29:10 ehu_ [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
19:30:35 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:32:14 -!- ehu` [~Erik@109.33.28.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
19:32:43 <gleag> There's  a SB-BIGNUM::MAXIMUM-BIGNUM-LENGTH value that says 16777215 on my platform, but I'm not sure what exactly is it that can't be more than 16777215.
19:32:53 <adeht> ubikation: well there's http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ ..
19:33:14 <antifuchs> gleag: I'd assume it's digits (:
19:33:34 k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
19:33:37 <antifuchs> in which base, you'd have to read SBCL internals
19:33:37 <stassats> did i say 24? i meant (unsigned-byte 24)
19:33:57 <ubikation> adeht: I've looked at a few of those lisp sites online but I know I am very entry level. I was hoping someone on here might want to take a chance on me I guess.
19:34:04 <gleag> That sounds like a more reasonable value. :)
19:34:38 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias
19:35:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:36:44 <adeht> ubikation: welp, another idea is to get an ordinary mainstreamy programming job and slip lisp in somewhere (say, for your own internal tools)
19:37:01 <stassats> actually, 2^29 can be not enough for the most-positive-bignum
19:37:37 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:38:02 -!- smithzv [~user@c-50-165-5-61.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp
19:38:02 <stassats> no, it is enough
19:38:15 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:38:37 <stassats> so, no problem there, you can easily access your 536870880-bit bignums with ldb
19:40:03 <ubikation> adeht: yeah I know... but I really want to work with other lisp programmers.
19:40:27 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:40:31 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp
19:41:01 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
19:41:38 <gleag> adeht: Or even better, work in a competely different field and obliterate competition with your productivity and quality improved by using custom quality SW tools. :)
19:41:40 -!- ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:42:03 <oleo> no discouraging of noobs ere!
19:42:29 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odcházím]
19:43:06 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:43:25 *oleo* shows the yellow flag!
19:44:58 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:45:08 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
19:46:04 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:46:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:47:15 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
19:47:34 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
19:47:50 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp
19:48:12 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:e46b:96cb:8851:950a] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz]
19:48:51 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:e46b:96cb:8851:950a] has joined #lisp
19:49:35 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:49:44 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit]
19:50:08 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
19:50:36 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:51:54 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@ip70-189-239-148.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp
19:52:46 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
19:53:59 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp
19:54:50 l_ [~n@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp
19:55:28 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds]
19:55:38 -!- l_ [~n@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp
19:56:36 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
19:58:15 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:00:06 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:01:15 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:02:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:02:11 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb]
20:03:14 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:03:29 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:05:11 Shinmera [~linus@80.77.87.239] has joined #lisp
20:06:06 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:08:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit []
20:08:20 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:08:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@7.124-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:09:47 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
20:10:11 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-015-229.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:11:02 paul0 [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has joined #lisp
20:11:15 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:11:54 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:12:12 <pjb> ubikation: the best/easiest way to get a lisp job, is to either 1) become free lance, get some customers who don't mind what technology you use to provide them a solution and use lisp, or 2) launch a start up, get some customers who don't mind what technology you use to provide them a solution and use and have your employees use lisp.
20:12:14 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:12:37 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:12:54 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp
20:17:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:17:23 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:18:38 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:19:45 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
20:21:20 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:22:30 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:23:05 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp
20:23:26 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:27:39 <dim> I'm still wondering what to make out of The Great Computer Languages Shootout, but clearly SBCL is badly represented for this particular benchmark here: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=regexdna
20:30:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds]
20:30:55 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:30:58 *|3b|* suspects it is compiling regexes at runtime
20:31:02 k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
20:31:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:31:22 <stassats> it got the code to make grown men cry
20:31:33 <|3b|> that too
20:31:48 <stassats> i mean, what's the point? nobody writes code like that
20:32:39 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:33:13 *|3b|* supposes it might not be compiling enough regexes to matter, hard to tell
20:33:14 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-103.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:33:57 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit]
20:34:14 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-249.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
20:34:26 k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
20:34:33 <p_l> it seems that it *has* to build regexes at runtime
20:34:44 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit]
20:34:48 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-194-217.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp
20:35:02 <p_l> ... ah, nope
20:35:07 <p_l> missed a variable there
20:35:31 k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
20:36:30 <|3b|> doesn't generally look like it was written by someone who knows how to optimize for sbcl
20:36:54 <p_l> missing precompilation of regexes too
20:39:54 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:39:56 <stassats> i don't know why someone who knows how to optimize for sbcl would care about the shootout
20:40:55 <dim> stassats: yeah that's my problem with the shootout globally
20:40:55 *|3b|* might care for entertainment, but so far hasn't enough to actually do something with them
20:41:11 <|3b|> (aside from some of the random times it gets posted here)
20:41:36 <dim> I would love to see our beloved Lisp (SBCL) get a more trustworthy ranking there though
20:41:51 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:41:56 *|3b|* wonders how the ocaml one gets 1.45 cpu sec and 9.5 real time, when best entry uses 5.7 cpu sec
20:42:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:42:07 <dim> in my experience any CL code I write is at least a couple of magnitude faster than any python code I could have been writing
20:42:41 <|3b|> well, cases like this where python is probably just calling out to a fast C lib are harder to compete
20:42:49 <stassats> |3b|: its core utilization seems different
20:43:29 <|3b|> the ocaml one you mean?
20:43:35 <stassats> yep
20:43:35 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:43:59 <|3b|> 1.5 cpu sec with 85%+ cpu load for 9 sec is a bit odd too
20:44:00 <stassats> i would have expected that would make cpu time more
20:44:07 <|3b|> right
20:44:50 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:45:27 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-67-101-30.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:46:02 paul0 [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has joined #lisp
20:46:09 bja [~bja@c-98-222-22-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:46:44 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:47:24 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp
20:48:00 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:48:29 <stassats> i'd rather do: write nice idiomatic code, then optimize cl-ppcre and sbcl to run it better
20:48:34 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:48:39 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:50:41 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:51:31 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.77.30] has joined #lisp
20:52:34 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20:55:27 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp
20:55:58 -!- d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1]
20:57:41 _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp
20:57:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:58:00 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp
21:00:01 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
21:01:03 <gleag> oleo: I wasn't discouraging anyone! ;)
21:02:30 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:e46b:96cb:8851:950a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:03:53 <oleo> i didn't mean you neither..... this channels sometimes sounds gruntling like it tho.....
21:03:57 Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
21:05:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:06:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:06:36 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:08:10 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
21:08:18 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:10:34 -!- arrdem is now known as arrdem|brbplan9
21:11:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:13:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:13:26 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:7c86:5148:268e:b26d] has joined #lisp
21:14:49 -!- arrdem|brbplan9 is now known as arrdem
21:15:20 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:16:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:19:34 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5499D9A3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:19:54 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
21:22:44 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
21:23:54 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:24:33 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
21:25:25 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:27:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:33:00 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:33:13 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
21:33:20 <mathrick> argh, why's genera so hard to get running
21:33:58 <mathrick> I managed to hack my way through almost everything, except that now I got it to boot, it somehow freezes my X completely until I kill it (???)
21:34:27 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
21:34:29 <p_l> mathrick: you need to pick up some ancient X server (that is, pre 6.8)
21:34:49 <mathrick> ouch
21:35:05 <mathrick> I still don't understand why it kills mine though
21:35:34 <p_l> mathrick: Genera probably asks something innocent that was considered unimportant by the Great Reformators of X
21:36:23 <mathrick> possibly, but it shouldn't result in total death of X
21:36:29 banannagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:36:58 <mathrick> but OK, let's try VMing the VM
21:37:42 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:7c86:5148:268e:b26d] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:37:53 <p_l> mathrick: I recommend running Genera under Xephyr or Xnest anyway
21:37:59 <p_l> without any window manager other than TWM
21:38:15 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
21:38:19 <mathrick> p_l: will those work with >6.8?
21:38:19 <pjb> ratpoison
21:38:36 <p_l> mathrick: still not
21:38:49 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:39:05 <p_l> mathrick: I used some old copy of Ubuntu server amd64 for my try
21:39:19 <p_l> something around 6.04?
21:39:27 <mathrick> hmm
21:39:41 <p_l> I think it was the only ubuntu system I ever installed and used willingly
21:40:32 <mathrick> 5.10 already had 6.8.2, so you version info is inaccurate
21:41:08 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:5196:604:299d:db31] has joined #lisp
21:41:25 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp
21:43:47 <p_l> hmmm
21:44:04 <p_l> maybe it was earlier. I did say "around" :)
21:44:18 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:44:41 <mathrick> p_l: I think it's more likely that 6.8 still works and it's 7.0 that's too new
21:44:53 <p_l> mathrick: 6.8 and 7.0 are identical, actually
21:45:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:45:11 <p_l> 7.0 differs in source code organization
21:45:31 <p_l> but functionally, 7.0 and 6.8 were the same
21:47:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec]
21:49:58 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
21:50:54 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:5196:604:299d:db31] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:51:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:53:04 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:57:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:58:34 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:03:48 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
22:04:38 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:05:23 -!- banannagram is now known as bananagram
22:07:15 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp
22:07:30 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:09:35 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:11:52 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
22:12:46 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp
22:13:05 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp
22:13:24 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
22:15:21 <dim> will cl-ppcre:*use-bmh-matchers* be honnored when creating a scanner from the S-expression parse-tree input?
22:16:54 <dim> oh. I found my error.
22:16:55 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
22:17:30 -!- Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:17:30 <dim> (was perf related, and I used the parse-tree as input to the matching call rather than the scanner created from the parse tree, silly me)
22:18:02 <dim> 2s down to 0.032 for 10000 matches (with some registering)
22:20:16 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:20:51 Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has joined #lisp
22:22:42 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:24:16 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has joined #lisp
22:24:30 -!- _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
22:24:36 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp
22:25:33 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:25:49 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp
22:26:59 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:27:50 -!- Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:28:59 -!- bja [~bja@c-98-222-22-162.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:30:07 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp
22:31:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host3.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:31:11 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:33:28 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:37:48 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75db95.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:38:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:42:11 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:43:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:44:02 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
22:46:50 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:46:51 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit]
22:47:54 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:48:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:48:30 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp
22:49:05 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:49:39 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
22:50:23 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:53:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:53:34 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp
22:53:44 k0001 [~k0001@host5.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
22:55:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:58:52 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
23:00:19 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
23:02:18 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:03:40 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:05:16 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:10:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:12:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
23:12:48 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp
23:13:11 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:13:43 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:13:51 Aramur_ [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
23:17:02 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:17:27 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
23:17:54 -!- Aramur_ is now known as Aramur
23:18:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:18:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:19:13 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp
23:20:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:20:57 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:22:03 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:22:42 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:24:13 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:24:41 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
23:28:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:30:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:32:42 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:34:40 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds]
23:35:42 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp
23:38:41 -!- genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: #\z#\z#\z]
23:43:07 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:43:27 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
23:44:04 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp
23:44:14 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:50:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:53:16 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
23:56:45 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
23:58:06 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:58:14 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:d3f0:785a:cb54:6f2b:dd71] has joined #lisp
23:58:48 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp