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00:02:01 <nightshade427> Okay installed fine, going to try it out. Thanks everyone ;)
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00:39:41 <nightshade427> okay that worked ;)
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02:13:25 <sausages> is there a standard way to programmatically retrieve the name/symbol of an arbitrary function object?
02:13:40 <stassats> clhs f-l-e
02:13:40 <specbot> function-lambda-expression: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
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02:14:59 <sausages> ah!  perfect, that's what I needed.  glossed over it in apropos because I made a wrong assumption about what it was :)  thanks
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02:20:39 <Zhivago> sausages: Essentially a name has a function, rather than the other way around.
02:20:58 <Zhivago> Also note that function-lambda-expression isn't required to produce anything useful.
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02:22:22 <stassats> the standard doesn't require the implementation to be any useful
02:22:43 <sausages> zhivago:  I'm writing a function that scans a form to make sure nothing in it references anything in an outside package.  combined with find-symbol this should do the trick when an element is a function
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02:23:15 <Bike> literal functions don't show up in forms much...
02:23:16 <Zhivago> Well, nil is not going to solve his problem. :)
02:23:34 <Zhivago> You might find that writing your own macro to media defun makes that easier?
02:23:40 <Zhivago> er, mediate.
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02:24:25 <stassats> you can have an implementation with arrays no longer than 1024, and yet, nobody seems to mind that
02:25:00 <Zhivago> Just a matter of being aware of what you can expect to work and what you might hope to work.
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02:50:31 <quazimodo> sometimes the way people write lisp is crazy sometimes. Some of these devs have thrown their hands in the air like 'fuckit, no one can understand this but am i bothered?'
02:50:53 <stassats> eh?
02:51:16 <quazimodo> stassats let me show you, it's crazy to me
02:51:26 <stassats> i'm not really interested
02:52:16 <quazimodo> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/80d195142b1f4ee1d0a7
02:52:21 <Zhivago> Easy extensibility does not imply good extension -- if anything, the converse.
02:52:29 <quazimodo> oh you weren't saying eh? to me. my bad
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02:54:36 <stassats> i was saying "eh?" because of your saying indeed, but because i didn't understand why you chose to complain on #lisp about some code you encountered
02:56:24 <quazimodo> stassats: common experience shared among many people is often something people talk about
02:56:45 <quazimodo> but yeah, i see your point :P
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02:57:51 <stassats> is it a common experience shared by many people?
02:57:57 <stassats> and exclusive to lisp?
02:58:35 <Zhivago> Well, only uncommon people use lisp, so the survey is defective.
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03:09:11 <drmeister> Is the syntax for translate-logical-pathname a typo in the CLHS?   It says:  translate-logical-pathname pathname &key
03:09:28 <stassats> where's a typo?
03:09:34 <drmeister> and nothing after the &key
03:09:45 <Bike> probably for allowing implementation-defined args
03:09:50 <stassats> "There are no specified keyword arguments for translate-logical-pathname, but implementations are permitted to extend it by adding keyword arguments."
03:10:49 <stassats> without &key you can't pass :allow-other-keys
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03:11:03 <drmeister> So is the &key supposed to do anything to the lambda list processing - or does it just mean - this is where you would put implementation dependent keywords.
03:11:30 <Bike> well it means you can pass key arguments, so have any plist after the first arg
03:11:38 <stassats> "without &key you can't pass :allow-other-keys"
03:11:41 <Bike> and then that's an error or not by the usual rules about unknown key args
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03:12:18 <drmeister> Ok - I got it.
03:12:30 <drmeister> Thanks.
03:13:01 <drmeister> We'll see if it blows up my lambda-list handler.
03:13:32 <Bike> it's really not much different from having key args
03:16:34 <drmeister> Yeah - but I think this is the first time I've seen that idiom and my LambdaListHandler class may throw a fit if it sees an &key with no keyword arguments after it - on the other hand it may be fine with zero keyword arguments.  I'll find out soon enough.
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03:18:44 <Zhivago> Remember that &key just looks into &rest.
03:22:13 <drmeister> With all the pathname functions I can finally run the ansi-tests.
03:22:15 <stassats> Zhivago: all the lambda list parameters can be though as looking into &rest
03:22:41 <stassats> thought
03:22:46 <Zhivago> Well, not &optional.
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03:23:25 <stassats> why not? in fact, you can do (lambda (&rest args) (destructuring-bind (x y z &optional optional) args ...))
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03:24:00 <Zhivago> And the prize for missing the point goes to ... stassats.
03:24:16 <stassats> and the prize for being Zhivago goes to Zhivago
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03:25:39 <Zhivago> It's been a life-long ambition.
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03:27:43 <stassats> the arguments are passed into function in the same way, their processors choose to interpret them based on the lambda list, there's no difference in between how &optional or &key are passed
03:27:47 <stassats> or the required
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03:30:15 <Zhivago> That's not true at all. They can be passed differently depending on how the lambda lists are set up.
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03:30:41 <stassats> then (apply unknown-function unknown-list) wouldn't work
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03:31:41 <stassats> all else is just an optimization, it can just as well be inlined and there will be no function call, nor parameter parsing
03:31:49 <Zhivago> That doesn't follow, either.
03:32:03 <Zhivago> Apply can look at see how the function would like to receive its arguments.
03:32:16 <drmeister> Not to throw any more intellectual chum into the water - the way I implemented it is consistent with what stassats is saying.  I was warned away from changing how functions call other functions based on the callee's lambda-list because you can change functions at any time.
03:33:05 <stassats> Zhivago: that's not a very efficient way
03:33:31 <Zhivago> It's probably more efficient than consing up a list for each function call. :)
03:33:43 <stassats> and i said, all "parameters can be thought as parsing &rest", and you can implement and it'll be consistent with the standard
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03:34:11 <stassats> there's no list consing, parameters are passed on the stack
03:34:17 <stassats> with some on the registers
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03:34:37 <Zhivago> Unless ... you use &rest. :)
03:34:53 <stassats> &rest is passed on the stack too
03:34:55 <Zhivago> So, by your logic, all function calls can be thought as consing a list.
03:36:08 <Zhivago> drmeister: Actually, there are some strong restrictions on how you may not change functions.
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03:36:44 <Zhivago> drmeister: The most interesting one for you is probably that function calls to functions defined in the same compiled file need not respect redefinition.
03:38:08 <Zhivago> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
03:38:19 <stassats> there's no consing lists in any kind of function calls, unless you do it specifically
03:40:05 <stassats> and that is how it's implemented on SBCL, the calling convention is uniform for the caller
03:42:20 <stassats> (lambda (&rest args) args) will cons a list, because args escapes, but in (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'foo args)) args will continue to be passed on the stack, just copied down the frame
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03:43:01 <stassats> (well, the first three args passed on registers, but it's the same deal)
03:44:29 <drmeister> stassats: That's a nice way to describe it "the calling convention is uniform for the caller"  - meaning the calling convention is unaffected by the callee.   From what pjb was telling me that's true for calls between functions in different compilation-units but it may not be true within a compilation-unit.
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03:44:56 <Bike> well, like zhivago said, within a compilation unit you're allowed to assume that the callee is constant
03:45:33 <stassats> if you want to make the life difficult for yourself and for the developer, you can follow the strictest interpretation of the standard
03:45:48 <stassats> you can even randomly inline functions, it's allowed
03:45:59 <Zhivago> Unless declared notinline.
03:46:12 <stassats> but as you're developing a compiler, you probably don't want the users to hate you
03:46:27 <Zhivago> Have them take a personality test first.
03:47:26 <drmeister> It's all optimizations - I don't do a lot of those yet.
03:47:40 <drmeister> So the users will hate me because the compiler is slow :-)
03:47:55 <Zhivago> Just as long as you know where to look.
03:47:56 <drmeister> - or generates slow code.
03:48:56 <stassats> i haven't heard people complaining about sbcl being slow, and it doesn't prohibit redefinitions of functions inside the same unit
03:49:15 <stassats> except for fmakunbound won't make it happy
03:49:18 <drmeister> So I was interviewing some senior computer science students for undergraduate research optimizing compilers - holy crap - they don't know anything.
03:49:51 <Zhivago> What did you ask them about?
03:51:27 <drmeister> We talked for about an hour and I had one of them bring his transcript.   Half a dozen courses with the words "data structure" and "intro to operating systems" makes them computer science B.Sc. seniors.
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03:51:39 <drmeister> Wait - do they give B.Sc. for computer science?
03:51:45 <Bike> often
03:51:55 <stassats> actually, fmakunbound is allowed to, i was thinking about something else and can't remember anymore
03:52:31 <drmeister> Yeah, its a Bachelors degree program.
03:53:29 <drmeister> I was hoping they'd taken a compiler design course - nope, that's graduate level.
03:54:07 <Bike> really? i'm used to that being junior or senior undergrad level
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03:54:41 <drmeister> Not at Temple University.
03:55:05 <Bike> well, it varies, obviously. probably most graduates don't need to know how to write a compiler for their jobs.
03:55:32 <Zhivago> I find that most CS graduates are pretty generally useless.
03:56:14 <drmeister> Yeah - what I learned, I learned on the street.
03:56:17 <Zhivago> Usually I get them to build a markov space and chain generator, which is something that is pretty straight-forward, but which few have done.
03:57:06 <drmeister> What's a markov space and chain generator?
03:58:07 <drmeister> I use Markov chains for Monte-Carlo simulations - are they reated?
03:58:09 <drmeister> related.
03:58:55 <Zhivago> Well, a markov space has the transition probabilities given a history of transitions.
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03:59:14 <Bike> you mean the state space, right?
03:59:27 <Zhivago> You can then generate a chain through the markov space by constructing such a history based on those probabilities.
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04:01:19 <drmeister> What do you use them for?
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04:01:26 <Bike> you can use markov processes for all kinds of things, you already mentioned doing so
04:01:28 <Zhivago> Well, things like tokenization are popular -- the viterbi path through such a space, for example.
04:01:28 <drmeister> Sure - but what does Zhivago use them for.  I ask because I might learn something.
04:01:29 <Zhivago> But mostly I just use it to see how useless an interviewee is.
04:01:55 <Zhivago> I have them take a small training set of words, build such a space, and then write a function to generate words based on it.
04:02:18 <Zhivago> There are lots of ways to solve such a problem, and lots of ways to break such a problem down into simpler ones.
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04:02:48 <Bike> and in the end you can have a nonsense generator for mocking people on irc! the perfect program
04:03:04 <Zhivago> I have no use for such a mechanism.
04:03:17 <stassats> minion: do you want markov chains?
04:03:17 <minion> here i am, brain the size of a planet, and all i do is answer your silly questions all day... maybe you have time to want markov chains
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04:03:50 *drmeister* wishes people wouldn't taunt minion.
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04:06:47 <drmeister> My state space is very complicated.  I have something like little warped Lego bricks that have little tools hanging off of them and you can put the lego bricks together in any order.  I want to make machines out of them.
04:07:34 <drmeister> I can build a chain of 20 of them and then start swapping individual bricks in and out and score the resulting assembly for machine like behavior.
04:08:32 <drmeister> And each "brick" contains about two to three-dozen atoms.
04:15:16 <drmeister> You can tell - I'm a riot at parties.
04:15:36 <Bike> the tricky is to parley all that chemistry into bartending, no doubt.
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04:16:42 <drmeister> If I could send one message back in time, it would be something to that effect.
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07:53:41 <grubnik> *yawn*
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11:11:00 <grubnik> quiet day ..
11:11:49 <Zhivago> Well, it was ...
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12:44:31 <mathrick> http://common-lisp.info/ <-- why, KMP, why?
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13:06:58 <webos> lemonparty
13:07:08 <grubnik> mathrick: what is wrong?
13:07:15 <webos> lemonparty
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13:07:20 <webos> oops
13:07:35 <madnificent> webos: don't spam #lisp with that nice nickname
13:08:16 <webos> cant see shit
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13:14:12 <Zhivago> He's not just one webo.
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13:39:52 <grubnik> he is a web os ...
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13:40:45 <mathrick> <grubnik> mathrick: what is wrong? <-- everything
13:42:11 <mathrick> it uses comic sans, the <li>s are specifically and explicitly made to render wrong (li { text-indent: -10pt; }), it uses markup that was never even remotely correct in the worst of web times
13:42:56 <mathrick> <style content="text/css"> ("content" was never, ever an attribute name in style tag), <p align="right">
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13:43:31 <grubnik> send an email to pitman ..
13:43:35 <grubnik> :-)
13:43:53 <mathrick> yeah, thankfully I don't think anyone actually visits that page
13:45:21 <mathrick> incidentally, does anyone know of any practical demonstrations of the real-world tasks LispMs were good for, specifically I'd like to see Zmacs and possibilities buffers
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13:45:34 <mathrick> KMP has described it in a few posts, but it's very hard to imagine without seeing it used
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13:57:46 <grubnik> i hate cvs ..
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14:13:52 <mathrick> we all do
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14:22:43 <fe[nl]ix> grubnik: so you worked on the MIT loop ?
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14:30:30 <grubnik> fe[nl]ix: please don't blame me for it ...
14:31:06 <fe[nl]ix> I'm not, just curious
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14:31:52 <fe[nl]ix> who are you ?
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15:25:21 <ogamita> mathrick: ah well, I watched it in w3m. Nothing of that nonsense appeared. :-)
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18:05:20 <ubikation> when should I be deleting ~/.cache/common-lisp? I'm using abcl and it's been weird how deleting it has been resolving issues. Also, it seems like I have to reload slime if I am adding functions to package.lisp or they aren't recognized at all. What's up with that?
18:06:00 <felideon> so how recommendable is slimv if someone would want to defer learning Emacs
18:07:41 <oleo> ubikation: that's where the fasls are stored...., you should delete it once in a while....especially if suspiciuos of some bugs....
18:08:04 <Xach> ubikation: It's not common to have to delete it frequently or reload slime for package changes.
18:08:23 <Xach> ubikation: If you have to do it a lot when using abcl, it could be incomplete or buggy bits of ABCL involved.
18:09:29 <ubikation> ah, okay. thank you!
18:10:12 <sellout-> ubikation: You should only have to reload package.lisp and the files containing the new functions (which should be handled by  ,load-system <system name> in slime).
18:10:28 <ubikation> also, how do I pass function parameters to another function? if I have (defun a (b c d) (e b c d)) it seems like cl is trying to call b on c and then that on d. how do I avoid that?
18:11:12 <sellout-> ubikation: Uh, are you using the cl package in your package?
18:11:28 <ubikation> sellout-: I've been only doing (ql:quickload "project") again and again... I guess that doesn't do the reloading automatically?
18:11:53 <sellout-> ubikation: That should as well, but slime has a shortcut built in for (an approximation of) that.
18:11:55 <Vivitron> ubikation: it should, did you remember to save package.lisp?)
18:12:04 <ubikation> sellout: I believe so... I have   (:use #:cl) in my package.lisp
18:12:35 <ubikation> I believe I've been saving it... but I might have been forgetting. I'm pretty sure that's not the issue.
18:12:39 <sellout-> ubikation: and (in-package #:my-package) in your source files?
18:12:46 <ubikation> sellout-: yup
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18:16:38 <ubikation> this is the function I am trying to fix atm: https://gist.github.com/ubikation/6440684
18:19:12 <Xach> What error do you get?
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18:21:04 <ubikation> Xach: I get "The function CHEMICALAMBDA::TO is undefined."
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18:23:05 <Vivitron> ubikation: you are splicing a list of a list and getting the list spliced in
18:23:24 <Vivitron> ubikation: instead of the element
18:24:32 <ubikation> Vivitron: I don't understand what that means.
18:24:49 <Vivitron> ubikation: in your emacs buffer go to the parenthesis starting one of the calls to akka-call and type C-m
18:24:52 <sellout-> ubikation: The error is in your ,@(when )
18:25:24 <Xach> ah yes, REST is already a list.
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18:26:45 <ubikation> C-m?
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18:28:23 <Vivitron> ubikation: control+m, it's a convenient way to check macroexpansions, you could also (macroexpand-1 '(akka-call "actorTell" to from message))
18:29:08 <ubikation> Vivitron: I'm trying that but it's just inserting newlines... is that a default for lisp mode?
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18:29:27 <Xach> I usually use C-c C-m
18:30:02 <didi> C-m is RET.
18:30:07 <Vivitron> hmm, didn't think I changed it, sorry to confuse
18:31:55 <ubikation> ah thanks! That's really useful.
18:32:47 <ubikation> also now when I do (chemicalambda:actor-tell *a* "Hello") I get "no such method" with  ,@(when rest rest) being my macro splicing part
18:34:37 <Xach> ,@(when rest rest) is equivalent to ,@rest
18:34:46 <Xach> I can't help with "no such method" though.
18:35:23 <Bike> error at macroexpansion time or when executing the expansion?
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18:39:39 <ubikation> I think it's when executing the expansion... the expanded form looks okay to me
18:39:56 <ubikation> (JAVA:JSTATIC "actorTell" "org.abcl.akka.AkkaApi" *a* "Hello")
18:40:01 <Bike> if you have an expansion at all then obviously the macro function didn't raise an error :)
18:40:13 <Bike> don't know enough abcl to help with that, sorry
18:40:16 <ubikation> Bike: that makes sense :)
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18:40:54 <Bike> but that's a problem with the expanded form, rather than the macro itself, so that should make it easier to debug
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19:08:53 <Borbus> I remember reading somewhere that APPLY has a limit to the number of arguments so REDUCE should be used (like (reduce #'+ (list ...))) for arbitrary lists. Anyone know where this is documented?
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19:11:48 <Xach> Borbus: http://l1sp.org/cl/call-arguments-limit
19:12:47 <Borbus> Wow, that's huge on my system
19:14:06 <didi> Borbus: I bet it's your most-positive-fixnum.
19:14:27 <Borbus> Indeed it is
19:14:42 <didi> \o/
19:16:50 <gleag> That still may not make it necessarily a good idea to do that. ;)
19:17:08 <Xach> In that case it might not be a true limit. Things might break before that.
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19:17:25 <didi> Decisions, decisions...
19:17:50 <gleag> I'd assume that all the (sub)parameters would at least get copied somewhere, which is already a bad idea.
19:18:07 <Borbus> But I mean a reduce should be easily optimised out anyway so I guess there's no reason not to use it when you can
19:19:08 <gleag> Also, a clever implementation of reduce could paralellize some cases where the supplied function is associative (and has perhaps some other properties that I'm not sure about right now).
19:19:29 <Borbus> Yeah that's what I thought
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19:19:47 <Borbus> But that might require knowledge of the functoin parameter
19:20:05 <Borbus> Because you might have a side effect that you want done length-1 times
19:20:21 <Borbus> Not sure if it's guaranteed to actually call the function that many times
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19:21:04 <gleag> Borbus: if reduce finds out that the function passed is identical with #'cl:+, things are safe, for example.
19:21:26 <Bike> other than + not always being associative, heh heh heh.
19:21:51 <gleag> Well, some type inference might be required here. ;/
19:22:52 <sellout-> Bike: But CL:+ is always associative, no?
19:22:59 <Bike> floating point add isn't associative
19:23:04 <sellout-> Oh, right.
19:23:18 <sellout-> Funny, because Ive just been dealing with that in C.
19:23:21 <Bike> of course, you could assume that users don't care about that.
19:23:24 <gleag> If the input is a vector of integers, one ought to be safe.
19:23:27 <pjb> So reduce + and apply + can return different results.
19:23:41 <Borbus> I don't use floating point numbers
19:23:47 <pjb> T\
19:24:00 <Bike> gleag: "sequence of integers", sadly, isn't an expressible type
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19:24:04 <gleag> Wasn't there a filippic against the use of FP in lisp recently somewhere?
19:24:27 <gleag> Bike: it could be an inferrable type. Or some meaningful subtypes of that.
19:24:34 <Bike> sure, sure
19:24:46 <Borbus> I don't like irrational numbers tbh
19:24:55 <gleag> Being the old idiot that I am, I didn't bookmark the link. :/
19:25:37 <didi> gleag: Ah, I would like to read that.
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19:29:04 <gleag> didi: Well, me too, but I'd have to find it first.
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19:33:47 <Borbus> I wonder if I should learn clojure
19:34:04 <Borbus> It seems to be pretty hip at the moment and might look better than common lisp on the CV
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19:34:36 <Borbus> Is there much to learn for someone who uses CL?
19:34:51 <Bike> there is much to learn in general
19:35:22 <Borbus> Well of course, otherwise it would be pointless
19:35:25 <sellout-> Borbus: You might want to check out #clojure, but I agree that its an interesting language.
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19:38:38 <dim> say I want to parse messages according to a grammar expressed in ABNF, such as in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-syslog-protocol-15#page-10 --- what existing common lisp tool would you use for that?
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19:39:25 <dim> I don't really want to be coding an ABNF (as in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2234) parser generator just now, and while cliki list two of them, their website are not available and QL is not listing them
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19:41:14 <Bike> would smug work? that seems popular
19:41:15 <Borbus> dim: there is cl-yacc
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19:41:59 <gleag> Heh, another Stuff I Didn't Know About: http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml
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19:42:22 <gleag> (Might have something to do with the ITA Software acquisition. :-))
19:42:46 <dim> well yes I could use an existing parsing tool (I'd use esrap as that's what I'm used to) but that would be half of the story
19:43:46 <dim> I mean using esrap or smug or cl-yacc means I'm parsing ABNF input and generating code to parse message, so I'm using a parser generator to code a parser generator
19:44:28 <Bike> oh, so you want to just put in the abnf as is, huh
19:45:32 <dim> well I want to allow my users to edit the ABNF
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19:45:51 <Bike> oh, i see.
19:45:59 <dim> there's no such thing as a common syslog format apparently
19:46:16 <Bike> well, all you have to do is put the grammar for ABNF itself in esrap, right? it's work but probably not too bad
19:46:31 <dim> rsyslog uses a mix of two different RFC proposals, and I don't have much ope about other solutions
19:47:10 <dim> reading the ABNF is half the problem, generating the message parser is the other half, I though something generic might already exists
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19:47:56 <dim> it doesn't look that complex to go from ABNF to some code using cl-ppcre to actually parse and destructure the input messages
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20:28:49 <francogrex> Hi
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20:31:09 <gleag_> Since Dan Weinreb's GC's first anniversary is approaching, I thought that some of you might find it interesting that the recent archaeological excavations in my local layers of backup DVDs have uncovered a strange artifact:
20:31:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat99.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:31:30 <gleag_> an .MP4 file, about 480x360 pixels in size and roughly 200MB in weight, stratigrafically dated back to the Middle YouTube Age, apparently containing Dan's Google Talk on the airline reservation system.
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20:32:13 <gleag_> Just thought that someone could be interested in it since I don't think it's available officially anymore.
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20:33:01 <sykopomp> I think I've seen people come in here and ask for it more than once...
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20:34:15 <gleag> I thought so, but I don't know where to put it.
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20:36:47 <natascia> Ciao a Tutti!!!
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20:37:52 <sykopomp> gleag: it might not be your place to put it anywhere, unfortunately.
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20:39:01 <gleag> sykopomp: But think of the opportunities! An underground movement liberating oppressed videos!
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20:43:37 <sykopomp> lol
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21:20:25 <dim> what about YouTube?
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21:41:12 <mathrick> <gleag> Wasn't there a filippic against the use of FP in lisp recently somewhere? <-- not super-recent if you mean John Fremlin, but yeah
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21:42:10 <mathrick> http://john.freml.in/consider-fixed-point http://john.freml.in/only-doubles-wrong
21:44:21 <gleag> I'm not sure that this is what I saw recently. I think I'd recognized it if I saw again what I had in mind.  I'll keep looking. But this is interesting, too.
21:44:31 <gleag> recognize...
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22:15:50 <dim> so yeah using esrap to parse ABNF gives good results, and cl-ppcre:craete-scanner accepting a s-exp based syntax as input is going to be a life saver
22:16:26 <dim> thanks to cl-ppcre all the parser has to do is ouput the s-exp that represents the regexp we want to parse...
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