00:00:53 -!- bitonic`` [~user@catv-80-99-254-250.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 00:04:52 zRecursive [~czsq888@220.166.239.165] has joined #lisp 00:05:02 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:09:29 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 00:11:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-164-232.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:17:23 -!- ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:12 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.106.243] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:20:14 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:41 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:21:43 -!- yakov [~yakov@176.14.91.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:27:53 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:06 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:28 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:38:56 scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:59:24 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:14 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:31 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:01:41 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:02:12 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:55 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:20 cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:07 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:21:39 Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-66-53.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:56 Hello brothers in binary. 01:22:36 anklesnap [~anklesnap@2602:304:ab2d:2599:9109:9e23:15d5:2c9c] has joined #lisp 01:25:57 A bit of a strange question, is it possible to iterate over the items in a struct and print their keys and values? 01:27:24 Not exactly. 01:27:45 and if you want a key-value relation you should use that, not a struct. 01:29:28 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:40 http://paste.ofcode.org/34cabgZcsVpVfGm5Wu6cNUK 01:29:51 You can see what I'm doing there... 01:29:53 Not pretty. 01:30:01 ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:40 you could use a local function, something like (slot (name) (let ((fun (fdefinition (symbolicate 'svg-object- name)))) (if (funcall fun svg-obj) (format str " ~a=\"~a\" name (funcall fun svg-obj)))))) 01:33:45 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-123-169.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:51 Ok. 01:36:11 I just started the structs chapter in my book yesterday. :) Plenty to learn. 01:37:02 then you'd do (mapc #'slot '(x1 y1 x2 y2 ...)) or whatever, should be nicer 01:40:09 <|3b|> or use a class instead of struct and use SLOT-VALUE 01:43:50 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:48 juliangindi [~juliangin@c-69-251-73-33.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:05 hey everyonefirst time Lisper here. I am looking to go deep down the lisp rabbit hole and am looking for some guidance 01:50:30 the mountain is so huge that the reality is you will have to find your own path 01:50:41 or you could read PCL. 01:50:41 no two people like to travel up this mountain the same way 01:50:42 :) 01:50:58 trueI would just like to be shown the different paths 01:51:19 minion: pcl? 01:51:19 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:51:24 minion: gentle? 01:51:24 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 01:51:29 minion: sicp? 01:51:30 sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 01:51:31 and so on. 01:51:37 lisp.reddit.com --> Lisp Bookshelf thread is actually a good start 01:51:44 -!- anklesnap [~anklesnap@2602:304:ab2d:2599:9109:9e23:15d5:2c9c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:56 luckily there are a ton of free books available on the subject so you should be able to dig as deep as you want 01:52:27 awesomeI started reading land of lisp but it just wasn't doing it for me 01:52:33 also, appearently, accessing gtk+ 3 via cffi works quite well for gui stuff ... i had no idea 01:52:45 juliangindi: i am going through land of lisp my self 01:53:08 i have had to append other books and play around with various libraries as i find the examples in the book kinda boring 01:53:11 :) 01:53:39 should I stick with land of lisp or switch to pcl? I found the LOL examples kind of boring as well 01:53:55 oh, i can't really tell you that. its up to you. 01:54:01 true 01:54:07 quicklisp lets you kinda load up whatever you want and just go 01:54:22 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.3] 01:54:22 that is pretty nice 01:54:26 i am right now playing with pal, which is an incomplete framework for making 2d opengl games 01:54:36 i am having fun making things move and squish and stuff 01:55:02 i will then get back to land of lisp and re-implement the examples in pal 01:55:07 haha niceI just have this dream of sitting at my computer and wielding lisp to do tasks I never knew were possible 01:55:36 land of lisp is actually quite deep. in order to master each of the chapters you have to spend A LOT of time on the examples. it is a surprisingly expansive book in my opinion 01:55:49 If you don't mind a somewhat dry book with personal challanges at the end of each chapter you could try "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" 01:55:59 juliangindi: well, i gotta figure out how to get the damned pal framework to code 'live' 01:55:59 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:32 that is my version of what you said. i just want to hit C-c in emacs and have the app just update. haven't figured that out yet. i will need to modify the main loop in the framework somehow i think. 01:57:20 btw, Ryan_Burnside suggestion is probably the best book for noobs. it really does start from the beginning and builds on top of previous topics. 01:57:59 in my opnion anyway 01:58:01 awesome 01:58:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:58:31 I have a lot to chew on now =) 01:58:48 practical common lisp kinda assumes that you have good programming experience and practical common lisp expects you to be able to be resourceful enough to dig in and research each of the topics in each chapter 02:00:32 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:00:40 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 02:00:41 I do have pretty solid programming experience 02:01:05 pcl then will do you justice 02:01:14 alright, I'll take a look through it 02:01:43 How can I assign one function to another? I just want to be able to use a pseudonym for a function. 02:05:22 got it. (setf (symbol-function 'fn1) (function fn2)) 02:06:23 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:03 Bike_ [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:06 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:13:14 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 02:18:14 -!- tolk [~user@host23.190-225-91.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:05 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:29:06 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 02:29:12 -!- juliangindi [~juliangin@c-69-251-73-33.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: juliangindi] 02:30:49 -!- ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:33:23 ehaliewi` [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:35 -!- ehaliewi` [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:07 -!- cscorp 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03:26:04 -!- paul0_ [~paul0@187.112.74.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:27:19 I'm trying to find some documentation on creating an accessor function. Not an object oriented accessor but something similar to nth. 03:27:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:27:47 zoek1 [~zoek1@189.193.234.82] has joined #lisp 03:28:05 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:28:35 seangrove [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:46 moto9 [~ml@p3E9E388A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:28:53 I have (defun rand-nth (l) (nth (random (length l)) l)) but I want to use it with (setf (rand-nth somelist) 4) for example. 03:29:29 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-223-199-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 03:29:53 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:30:27 Do I need to return some type of reference from rand-nth so setf can use it? 03:30:54 setf is a macro, not a function, it works on the form directly 03:31:18 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:53 I guess I'm not sure how nth works then. 03:32:23 Try writing (defun (setf rand-nth) (value list) ...) 03:32:37 clhs defsetf 03:32:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 03:32:40 clhs define-setf-expander 03:32:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm 03:32:45 AriaMK: for doc references. 03:33:16 Thanks I think this should help 03:33:51 AriaMK: basically, try (macroexpand-1 '(setf (nth ...) ...)) 03:35:34 (macroexpand-1 '(setf (nth 0 a) 44)) in CCL gave me (CCL::%SETNTH 0 A 44) 03:36:59 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:06 right, you see there's no "reference" returned from nth, or anything. 03:37:36 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 03:38:54 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:44:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:10 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:27 karatekid [~jonloruss@ec2-54-245-131-146.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:16 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 03:47:26 -!- echo-are` is now known as echo-area 03:47:46 Guest44114 [~user@c-98-236-30-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:04 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.99.156] has joined #lisp 03:51:58 Thanks, Bike. defsetf did the trick. 03:52:23 At what point would one want to use define-setf-expander? 03:54:58 "define-setf-expander differs from the long form of defsetf in that while the body is being executed the variables in lambda-list are bound to parts of the place form, not to temporary variables that will be bound to the values of such parts. In addition, define-setf-expander does not have defsetf's restriction that access-fn must be a function or a function-like macro; an arbitrary defmacro destructuring pattern is permitted in lambda-list." 03:55:04 I guess. 03:55:09 nilsi [~nilsi@124.79.138.223] has joined #lisp 03:56:00 ok... so when I break defsetf I guess. 03:56:06 Basically! 03:57:08 Whouldn't the whole thing be a bit easier if it used references? 03:57:35 Is it more legacy or is there something fundamental I'm missing? 03:58:11 Well, for one thing, you'd have to have references. 03:58:23 I mean, that's kind of non-simple. 03:58:35 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:58:45 Gotcha but I thought I can create a reference to a function 03:58:55 How so? 03:59:50 (setq r #'car) 04:00:17 That's the function itself, so to speak. 04:00:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.178.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:01:02 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:32 But both #'car and r now refer to # 04:03:34 ikki [~ikki@187.208.131.210] has joined #lisp 04:04:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:05:16 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:05:53 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:36 cory786 [~cory@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:42 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:52 Is it possible to mapcar a macro? 04:08:00 <|3b|> not really 04:08:25 <|3b|> (you can get the macro function and call it by hand, but that isn't usually very useful) 04:08:40 ah 04:09:05 <|3b|> depending on the macro and what you want to do, you might be able to wrap it in a function and call that 04:09:26 <|3b|> or if you wrote the macro, maybe a function + compiler macro would be better 04:09:56 alright, thanks 04:10:18 I need to return the " character in a function. (princ '#\") <-- is that right? 04:11:04 <|3b|> characters are self-evaluating. so you don't need to quote it 04:11:31 <|3b|> don't need to print things to return them for that matter 04:12:27 thank you 04:13:01 Bike_ [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:47 oh that works. great thx. 04:14:04 AriaMK: (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (defvar *y* (cdr x)) (cdr x)) returns the same thing as is in *y* but there aren't any "references" 04:15:18 -!- sturty67 [~sturty67@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sturty67] 04:16:53 Bike_, gotcha 04:17:38 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:19:22 -!- zoek1 [~zoek1@189.193.234.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:19:40 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:20:33 circuting71 [~circuting@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:45 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:22:24 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:23 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:40 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:32:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.131.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:33:58 Well my Lisp based partial SVG file generator is coming along swimmingly. http://imgur.com/LQKKfpX 04:34:20 Some lines on the canvas, not much but a good test. 04:36:42 neat 04:37:55 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:38:12 Not 100% sure about my Lisp tecnique but the important thing for me is practice. SVG at the most minimal level is a very nice format to make graphics with. 04:39:12 i'm playing around with game frameworks. your idea makes me think about dumping out each frame of the game to a png and use blender to render out the animation sequence 04:39:51 would put the hd to a test and see how well the sbcl environment handles something like that 04:39:54 :) 04:40:09 _veer [~veer@pool-96-254-154-127.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:09 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-96-254-154-127.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:40:09 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:41:06 holycow: you might want to join #lispgames 04:41:46 indeed :) i'm there a bit 04:43:52 -!- cory786 [~cory@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:41 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:45:22 I wish Emacs worked better on ASCII terminals. Then I could write Lisp in my 80 x 20 green phosphor screen. 04:45:37 ikki [~ikki@201.165.169.73] has joined #lisp 04:45:45 what do you mean? 04:45:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:57 neo? 04:45:58 heh 04:46:03 anyway, sorry 04:46:15 It doesn't refresh parts of the screen correctly. Also some of the key signals are different. :) 04:46:18 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 04:46:26 Ryan_Burnside, what screen are you using? 04:46:28 Ryan_Burnside: then you have a terminal emulationproblem 04:46:30 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:46:40 Ryan_Burnside: emacs works with ascii terminals just fine. 04:46:53 It is a WYSE WY-55 terminal. 04:46:55 Ryan_Burnside: but please not that there is #emacs for emacs support 04:47:09 Ryan_Burnside: look for a better matching terminfo entry 04:48:18 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@124.79.138.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:35 Ryan_Burnside, does TERM=wyse or TERM=vt help? 04:50:22 seg [~user@50.23.115.112] has joined #lisp 04:51:15 I followed a tutorial a long time ago. I'll write those down and check when I get to that computer. Thanks for the advice. 04:51:55 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:23 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-223-199-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:59:12 seangrov` [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:21 -!- seangrove [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:01:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-34.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:01:55 -!- AriaMK [~AriaMK@c-71-193-24-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:00 -!- seangrov` [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:17 seangrov` [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:27 -!- seg [~user@50.23.115.112] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:37 can you use common lisp to write client server programms like you can do it with python ? 05:08:47 elkng: yes 05:08:50 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:04 like you can't* with python. Fixed that for you! 05:12:27 H4ns: I have package clisp, should I install some additional libraries ? 05:13:03 elkng: usocket is the most popular cross-platform networking library. 05:13:56 can networking be used with bare clisp packages without installing additional libraries ? 05:14:02 yes. 05:14:08 sdemarre [~serge@28.96-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:14:16 you'll need to look at the clisp documentation to find out the details. 05:16:06 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:17:46 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7370aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@28.96-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:23:00 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-66-53.hlna.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:23:03 -!- ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:26:24 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:27:40 elkng: there's an example of client server in the socket chapter of the doc of clisp http://clisp.cons.org/ 05:29:20 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 05:32:48 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7370aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 05:33:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.165.169.73] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 05:34:33 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@220.166.239.165] has left #lisp 05:36:50 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 05:40:46 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 elkng: also although not portable (as usocket) there is iolib which has better documentation imho. 05:47:19 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 05:47:31 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 05:50:46 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 05:51:05 rurufufuss [~rurufufus@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:52:09 -!- CrazyEddy [~Sarcoptid@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: .] 05:52:44 CrazyEddy [~Malacosom@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:53:09 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:54:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:59 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 06:01:45 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:04:44 -!- karswell` [~user@31.1.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:06:35 namtsui` [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:16 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-205-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:10:13 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:11:43 thanks for the help all. turned out i had to learn format to solve my problem 06:11:46 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has left #lisp 06:14:03 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-155-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15:12 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:36 itidus21 [~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@95.107.26.209] has joined #lisp 06:21:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:15 -!- oleo_ [542c9bfb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.44.155.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:22:48 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 06:23:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 06:29:21 -!- PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has left #lisp 06:29:37 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 06:34:18 -!- dented42 [~dented42@1667024149.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:37:19 hajovonta [~user@173.248.133.249] has joined #lisp 06:37:23 hello 06:39:37 is there a seen bot in channel? 06:40:55 .seen hajovonta 06:42:43 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:43:53 -!- rurufufuss [~rurufufus@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:45:13 .seen hajovonta 06:45:42 <|3b|> minion: seen hajovonta 06:45:42 hajovonta was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 06:46:14 minion: seen minion 06:46:14 seen minion: what do you think 06:46:31 five years, huh 06:46:45 that can't be correct :) 06:47:07 <|3b|> yeah, most people were much more active on irc 5 years ago (at least according to minion) 06:48:12 minion: seen hajovonta 06:48:13 hajovonta was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 06:48:23 minion: seen tessier 06:48:23 tessier was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 06:57:20 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-suqvwgbqqxzywqwx] has joined #lisp 06:58:48 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:59:03 jewel [~jewel@196-215-5-39.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:02:24 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:23 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:06:37 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.83.84] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11:00 -!- seangrov` [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:14:48 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:44 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:56 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0dc129.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-2-81.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:26 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:33 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 dented42 [~dented42@1667024149.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:18 -!- dented42 [~dented42@1667024149.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:26:33 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-221.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:14 morning everyone 07:29:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:30:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.99.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:31:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-5-39.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:32:06 hi Blkt 07:32:16 :D 07:32:19 hi fe[nl]ix 07:35:02 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gcbajixvaghjotve] has joined #lisp 07:39:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:40:51 ehu [~ehu@089144206214.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has joined #lisp 07:42:02 fe[nl]ix: are you "fenix" or "felix" ? 07:42:04 bitonic`` [~user@catv-80-99-254-250.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:42:55 he matches both 07:44:02 phoenix phoelix 07:45:08 -!- ehu [~ehu@089144206214.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:56:49 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57:39 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0dc129.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:57:48 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:57:55 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:00:11 dented42 [~dented42@1667024149.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:38 p9fn [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:32 jewel [~jewel@41-133-109-236.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:39 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:30 ltbarcly 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[Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:47:33 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-137-145.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:52:39 ffilozov [598c7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.122.23] has joined #lisp 09:56:02 Using SBCL, if I make a foreign call which at some point sets errno, and then I call get-errno from the same Lisp thread, am I guaranteed that I'd get the value of errno which was previously set? 09:57:39 ffilozov, SBCL has foreign calls?! 09:57:41 ;- 09:57:44 ;-) 09:59:47 yakov: I don't understand. 10:00:23 ffilozov: what are you worried about? 10:01:04 Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has joined #lisp 10:01:05 ffilozov, switch to CCL and be happy. I never thought SBCL has working foreign calls in first place 10:01:16 yakov: what are you talking about? 10:01:26 loke: Is it safe to call get-errno after the foreign call returns back to Lisp, or should I be worried that errno will be overridden? 10:01:35 ffilozov: overridden by what? 10:01:54 loke, ffilozov ask perfectly legitimate question :-) 10:02:18 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:02:55 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:03:20 ffilozov, asair errno is per-application so no need to worry 10:03:22 ffilozov: get-errno maps directly to the "errno" value in the OS. In odern OS'es these are in thread-local storage so it's fine 10:03:42 s/asair/afair. 10:04:18 now if you're unlucky enough to use an OS where errno is not in thread-local storage (those still exist?) then you're screwed if you're using threads 10:04:27 shit. im wrong. http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1427.htm 10:04:46 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-221.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 10:04:52 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 10:05:17 loke, is it guaranteed that foreign calls are made from one same thread? ;-) 10:05:23 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 10:05:25 yakov: yes 10:05:28 cool. 10:05:33 yakov: it's made from the thread where you call it from. Of course. 10:05:39 (have no idea how foreign works in sbcl) 10:05:42 thx loke 10:06:08 yakov: it's working the way you'd expect it to work. You call a foreign function, the foreign function gets called. 10:06:29 No magic at all happening, except for data conversion. 10:07:05 loke, in context of threads it could happen in various ways 10:07:09 loke: I think that pretty much answers my question then. I'm certain errno is local, and since the same thread is used to make the call then it's safe. 10:07:23 not obvious at all how the dispatch to foreign calls interoperate with lisp threads 10:07:24 ;-) 10:07:42 wheather lisp threads are OS threads or not blah-blah... 10:07:46 get-errno is an FFI call in itself. It calls the C function os_get_errno (in os-common.c) which does nothing but returns "errno". 10:08:15 yakov: At least in SBCL, Lisp threads are OS threads. 10:09:05 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:09:44 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:34 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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12:05:57 i mean something like this (print x y text) 12:06:25 like (print 0 3 "abcde") => "abc" ? 12:07:16 no, i mean (as in your example) to print "abcde" at the x=0 and y=3 character positions 12:07:19 -!- Subfusc_ is now known as Subfusc 12:07:27 on where? 12:07:30 the terminal? 12:07:35 on the screen or terminal 12:07:43 I doubt there's something like it 12:07:50 you'd need curses for that. 12:07:53 it depends heavily on the system 12:08:52 my problem is, when i use separate threads, for example one for printing and one for reading input, they get mixed and when i type in something, and then the program prints something, my input gets cut in half 12:08:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:10:29 and i need to implement something like minibuffer in emacs or something like that 12:10:57 and i thought there may be a function to instruct lisp to print at certain positions 12:11:09 but any other ideas are welcome 12:11:19 there's no such notion as a screen position in cl 12:11:31 :( 12:11:33 Lisp doesn't concern itself with the output... 12:11:52 you can specify a horizontal position. But if you have threads stepping on one another in using a shared resource you might hvae other issues. 12:11:55 were there screens when Lisp was born? Or were they still printing on paper? 12:12:16 Blkt: it doesn't matter 12:12:35 no language has such functionality, it's up to the graphical libraries 12:12:44 I was curious, just a side thought 12:13:23 I wasn't arguing about languages 12:13:38 i can create a simple interface with Edi's great .NET library. Then use a textbox for output and another for input. But that's not too portable. 12:13:44 Blkt: printers, punched cards and punched paper tape 12:13:51 hajovonta: you can use commonqt 12:14:22 hajovonta: I've been thinking of porting that library to support Mono and newer versions of .NET, but never really had time or energy 12:14:38 i keep showing my video, which does that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2zyRQlLLSU 12:16:21 stassats: what is this? 12:16:23 stassats: what is it showing? multithreaded repl? 12:16:31 splittist: yes 12:19:21 turbopape [~turbopape@41.230.34.248] has joined #lisp 12:20:14 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 12:20:18 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:20:28 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 12:20:39 stassats: thanks for the idea 12:20:43 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 12:29:12 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:37 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 12:32:01 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:43 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:51 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-2-81.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:39:36 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:40:11 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:40:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:42:03 pavelpenev [~quassel@148.69.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:25 -!- joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:46:09 joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has joined #lisp 12:47:03 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@148.69.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:47:16 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:48:23 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:43 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:14 -!- joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:52:42 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:55 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:39 yonkeltr` [~user@yonkeltron.new.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:44 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:14 -!- yonkeltron [~user@yonkeltron.new.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:56:19 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@187.206.72.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:50 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-205-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:37 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.171] has joined #lisp 13:02:40 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: (invoke-restart 'dtw:real-life)] 13:04:01 -!- splittist [d4cb4e8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.203.78.138] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:04:34 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-15-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:04:39 seangrov` [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:21 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-18-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:32 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:28 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:43 nilsi [~nilsi@124.79.138.223] has joined #lisp 13:10:34 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:12:53 cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:42 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-18-175.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:38 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-175-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:17:43 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.171] has joined #lisp 13:17:56 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-175-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:12 anyone fancies iterate over loop? 13:22:41 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-8-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:24:24 The author of this paper. http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Don_0027t-Loop-Iterate.html 13:24:40 probably. iterate has some advantages over loop but I tend to use loop since that's already in the standard so it's one less dependency. 13:25:05 loop is just "good enough" 13:25:09 indeed 13:25:38 it's still a pity they didn't get around to include the loop extension API in the standard 13:26:58 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:26 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:30 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 13:28:49 xificurC_ [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-xxeygpauxtvdtjys] has joined #lisp 13:29:07 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:37 dropped sorry 13:29:49 minion: tell xificurC about logs 13:29:50 xificurC: have a look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 13:30:52 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-suqvwgbqqxzywqwx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:27 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-8-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:30 pnpuff [~Cijkl@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:35:43 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-8-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:35:52 -!- pnpuff [~Cijkl@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 13:39:43 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:56 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41:00 -!- net4all [~net4all@bacon.lysator.liu.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:42:00 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:15 -!- rkrish [~rkrish@192.241.167.136] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:42:34 paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 13:44:21 net4all [~net4all@bacon.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 13:44:22 mhi^ [~mhi@cable-95-168-137-37.cust.telecolumbus.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 -!- Wolfor [d9c5e70c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.197.231.12] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:48:53 does that mean you'd prefer iterate over loop if it was standardized? 13:49:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:49:26 i think i like LOOP's non-sexp syntax 13:49:31 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-8-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:49:32 me too 13:49:36 i'd prefer LOOP with the features of iterate 13:50:11 Are there any libraries that trie to extend loop's functionality or reimplement it with more features? 13:50:14 *try 13:50:25 sbcl's loop is extensible 13:51:45 stassats: what dont you like about iterate? 13:52:04 everything! 13:52:04 stassats: oh nvm, misread that 13:52:08 huh 13:52:08 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:52:19 stassats: uh, that tells me a lot.. ;P 13:53:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:39 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-27-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:55:49 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-103.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:32 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.105.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:24 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:08 -!- elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:44 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 14:06:54 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 14:08:00 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-221.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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If I asked you guys, "which path towards lisp and gui's am I going to regret the least" what would your answers be? I've been wondering how to apply the interactive programming dynamic to gui building, but so far when I start programs up from the repl, the main loop doesn't bring control back to the repl until I exit the program, so I can't use the repl to make modifications "live". 14:37:33 loke_erc: test failed 14:37:43 stassats: I know 14:37:54 stassats: I was hoping to be disconnected 14:38:00 -!- algae [~algae@akoostix.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:12 jangle: Web-based. Look up Hunchentoot and any of the million web frameworks 14:38:28 jangle: repl is usually useless for modifications 14:38:45 -!- aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-141-133.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:49 stassats: why would you say that, I am a lisp newbie, but wouldn't that be the perfect place for it? 14:39:03 loke_erc: thanks 14:39:07 no, the repl is the worst place for writing code 14:39:20 you write code in a file, compile it, run from the repl 14:39:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 14:39:38 that works with GUI frameworks, like commonqt, as well 14:40:03 you can also start it from a different thread, if you really wish so 14:40:12 stassats: It might we worth it to not that just because you write tcode in a file and compile, doesn't mean you have to _restart_ the image for every test 14:40:27 stassats: It may not be clear to everybody 14:40:30 but multithreading and GUI don't mix well 14:40:57 For web development, this stuff is very natural. Just recompile a function, and poof, it's right there, ready to serve the next request 14:41:21 Compared to, say, Java where you have to redeploy on every test. The difference is immense 14:42:02 In an earlier discussion it was mentioned that in SBCL it's safe to make a foreign call, then get errno with sb-alien:get-errno, assuming errno is thread local. How does SBCL guarantee that errno won't be reset by some other C function (some internal SBCL code, for example) called before get-errno is called? 14:42:23 it doesn't 14:42:52 sbcl doesn't usually call foreign functions out of the blue 14:43:02 SBCL doesn't cause your threads to randomly run off and call stuff 14:44:13 loke_erc: Sure, but it might still do some additional work after my foreign function has been called, and that's were errno could be reset. I don't know the internals of SBCL, that's why I'm asking. 14:44:34 ffilozov: Well, it doesn't 14:45:17 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:45:26 ffilozov: If you look at the disassembly output from SBCL you'll get an idea of what it does. 14:45:34 it's actually very straight forward 14:46:02 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:54 loke_erc: So (progn (foreign call here) (get-errno)) is safe, but if I add anything between, then that wouldn't be considered safe? 14:47:23 stassats: so you're saying that if control doesnt' come back to the repl, because I've started a gui program from it, that I can should expect to use slime or inferior lisp mode to recompile functions or redefine objects that would get picked up by lisp image? 14:47:25 ffilozov: depends on what you mean by "anything" 14:47:53 if will give an error why you should put somenthing there instead of geting errno? 14:47:54 jangle: right, as long your slime is using threads for communication 14:48:09 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-221.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:48:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:48:40 if you start your gui from a different thread, and want to restart it some time later, and that thread is no more present, it may not work anymore 14:48:50 running it from the repl thread ensure that the thread is the same 14:49:08 on some platforms, GUI can only be run fro the initial thread 14:49:21 i.e., from *inferior-lisp* 14:50:48 loke_erc: I get the impression while SBCL will generally work the way you mentioned, it's not something that's guaranteed, correct? Tomorrow someone could add some additional code that does some work after a foreign function has been called, and your assumption would no longer be valid. 14:51:29 ffilozov: tomorrow somebody can add "rm -rf $HOME" after calling foreign functions 14:51:32 nothing is guaranteed 14:52:00 good thing pjb doesn't develop SBCL, or he would actually add it 14:52:02 stassats: thank you. I was going in the direction if trying to "prove the nonexistence of a god", but your answer was much better :-) 14:52:36 pjb is one of the few reasons I casually browse c.l.l :-) 14:53:05 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.193] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.25.129.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:14 I don't always agree with him, but he does make interesting points. 14:53:57 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:54:48 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.132.83.33] has joined #lisp 14:55:34 aluuu [~aluuu@128-70-141-133.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:56:24 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:56:33 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:57:00 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:57:53 -!- bitonic [~user@catv-80-99-254-250.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:10 loke_erc: My original question was about guarantees that SBCL might provide. It seems to me that while SBCL works that way you mentioned, and may continue to work as such for some foreseeable future, it's nothing something SBCL is actively trying to guarantee. 14:58:29 it's not something* 14:58:43 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 14:59:00 are you willing to help with that ? 14:59:12 "Steel Bank Common Lisp (SBCL) is free software, and comes with absolutely no warranty." 14:59:20 "no warranty" 14:59:58 stassats: I haven't played with threads at all from a programmatic standpoint, maybe doing so would be elinghtening in this regard. 15:00:04 stassats: :-) 15:00:10 ffilozov: Let's put it this way: If the code started to randomly break errno, existing code would break. WOuld they do that? You guess. 15:00:22 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:00:23 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-221.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:30 fe[nl]ix: Actually, I need to do some work with CFFI and errno. 15:00:57 I want to add direct syscalls to libfixposix 15:01:12 direct-direct? 15:01:14 with non-POSIX signature, that return the errno directly 15:01:15 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.110.200] has joined #lisp 15:01:15 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.110.200] has quit [Changing host] 15:01:15 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 15:01:19 ffilozov, i told you. you'd better switch to CCL ;-) 15:01:22 signatures 15:02:12 fe[nl]ix: Are you talking about SBCL or CFFI? 15:02:34 yakov: Ok, weekend project. I'll try it. :-) 15:02:54 ffilozov: i spied "libfixposix" 15:02:56 stassats: so the signature of open would become lfp_errno_t open(int *ret, const char *pathname, int flags) 15:04:02 i see, and by direct-direct i meant "not calling the libc wrappers, but doing int 0x80 directly" 15:04:12 exactly 15:05:13 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:45 rurufufuss [~rurufufus@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:05:47 this "exactly" confused me, will you be calling libc wrappers? 15:05:56 fenlix: why would you do that? For performance? 15:06:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 stassats: it's what you meant, i.e. no libc wrappers and direct #x80 15:07:18 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-221.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:07:34 isn't that too much for maintenance? 15:07:51 no, why ? 15:07:55 the ABI doesn't change 15:08:18 it may be complicated to write in the first place 15:08:21 different OSes, platforms 15:08:30 man syscall 15:08:30 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/syscall.2.html 15:08:58 -!- Ulysses22222 [~daniel@109.226.23.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:09:13 I'd do that only on Linux to boot, and wrap libc on the other platforms 15:09:20 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.230.34.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:09:40 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev] 15:10:45 even if you restrict yourself to linux, direct syscall is complicated. 15:10:49 syscall(SYS_exit, ...) could be portable to BSD as well 15:11:52 syscall numbers, argument layout, and whether syscalls go through a dispatch routine, differ between architectures. 15:12:41 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gcbajixvaghjotve] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:12:41 I only need to care about x86_64 really 15:13:00 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:13:06 well, that's easier. Why do you need to do this at all? 15:13:22 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:22 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:22 who spoke of "need" ? 15:13:54 "may need"? "want"? 15:14:26 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:30 there's a small window between the syscall and the read of errno where things might go wrong in certain very specific cases 15:14:38 but that's a flimsy need 15:15:01 an interrupt may happen? 15:15:11 yes 15:15:26 Which is why signal handlers are highly restricted in what they're supposed to do. 15:15:41 "supposed" is a nice word 15:16:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:16:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:50 it might be that the debugger calls interrupt-thread 15:16:55 -!- Guest44114 [~user@c-98-236-30-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:03 Thread interruptions are unsafe to begin with 15:20:08 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:20:24 loke_erc: that doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to make them safer 15:20:32 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 sbcl can be built with safe-points 15:21:21 turbopape [~turbopape@41.228.40.9] has joined #lisp 15:21:27 -!- xificurC_ [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-xxeygpauxtvdtjys] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:21:57 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:14 and i'm using them all the time 15:23:15 I'm not sure that safepoints cover this case 15:23:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:23:34 nilsi [~nilsi@124.79.138.223] has joined #lisp 15:23:49 erewr2r45`12`12 [~dasdasd@41.46.216.135] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 if sbcl's foreign-funcall had an option to return the errno as second value then that could be covered 15:23:59 but currently we have to do it manually 15:24:01 -!- erewr2r45`12`12 [~dasdasd@41.46.216.135] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 15:25:00 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:30:18 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:30:39 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:31:00 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:56 Ulysses22222 [~daniel@109.226.13.33] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:35:38 hi 15:35:57 algae [~algae@akoostix.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:06 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:17 -!- algae [~algae@akoostix.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:20 algae [~algae@akoostix.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:34 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:43 hello 15:41:44 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:23 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has joined #lisp 15:42:33 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:01 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:45:10 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-nfwyiltaivbteiti] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:36 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:31 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:50:49 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@124.79.138.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:41 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:39 fe[nl]ix: What's your opinion on extending CFFI to return errno as a second value, assuming that user sets the appropriate option? Allegro CL already supports this. For other Lisps it might be enough to call their respective errno functions, although I'm not familiar with how other ones work. 15:53:52 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 15:55:48 -!- codeburg [~folker@194.6.195.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:39 -!- namtsui` [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:15 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has joined #lisp 15:59:44 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01:41 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 sohail [~Adium@69-196-176-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-176-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:02:31 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:03:51 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:53 -!- epsylon [~epsylon@abbaye.thele.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:10 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.228.40.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:56 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:54 -!- deliciousrobots [~delicious@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:55 ffilozov: might be a good idea 16:08:12 epsylon [~epsylon@abbaye.thele.me] has joined #lisp 16:17:16 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:18:24 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:13 -!- add^_ [~user@m5-241-132-120.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:20:16 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:25:34 splittist [~splittist@192-39.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:27:38 Dang it bitten by case folding: (eq ' ') ==> T 16:28:43 lol greek sigma left and right - looks legit 16:29:12 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 16:29:33 -!- ffilozov [598c7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.122.23] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:30:39 ... interesting 16:30:41 :) 16:31:22 when i first remapped my layout to use  in symbols, i didn't like the  in output very much. it's like an AND wedge 16:31:51 capitaomorte [~joaot@mail3.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 16:36:18 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:37:08 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:39:00 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:41:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-88-106.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:10 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:43:22 -!- yonkeltr` is now known as yonkeltron 16:44:21 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-84-44-153-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:04 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:23 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:46:29 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:48 AeroNotix [~xeno@abou82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:49 -!- yakov [~yakov@80.76.244.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:49 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:57:45 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:58:35 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:59:40 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:35 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:01:47 Why does a (format nil ...) not return anything inside a loop? 17:01:52 (loop for i in '("foo" "bar" "baz") do (format t "~a" i)) just prints the string and returns NIL, and (loop for i in '("foo" "bar" "baz") do (format nil "~a" i)) returns NIL too. (format nil ..) usually returns the string, but I'm not sure why it isn't working in this case. 17:02:06 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:22 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-zxkmfprfmvinmljn] has joined #lisp 17:02:35 ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 pranavrc: i think you want "return" 17:03:15 instead of "do" 17:03:15 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:03:24 pranavrc: you discarded format's results 17:04:24 or "collect" or "append" 17:04:57 you want it to return "foobarbaz"? 17:05:51 yeah 17:06:19 wait a moment, append doesn't work, but there a keyword that does, i think 17:06:36 wrap a string stream around it and format to that 17:07:21 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:07:30 I mixed up, sorry, this is in emacs-lisp (loop for i in '("foo" "bar" "baz") concat (format "%s" i)) 17:08:02 Here's the actual code 17:08:02 http://paste.lisp.org/+2YRH 17:08:09 Is that a string stream? 17:08:11 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:01 no, in your code you're missing a (setq formatted-string (concatenate ...)) I think 17:09:24 (with-output-to-string (s) (loop .... (format s "~a" i))) 17:09:26 but the stream technique is more idiomatic I think 17:09:33 yes that's it 17:10:43 Damn, I forgot to setq the string, is it :/ Works now, thanks! 17:11:04 I'll try the stream thing 17:11:14 yes, do, it's nicer :) 17:12:30 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:12:31 sweet. Thanks! 17:12:33 sohail [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-2925494769.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:12:34 -!- sohail [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-2925494769.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Changing host] 17:12:34 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:16:57 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:19:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:58 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:21:34 benkard [~benkard@tmo-106-38.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:26 How do I include a newline in the formatted string for every item in the list except the last one? Usually, for a single format function, I use ~^ but that doesn't seem to work in a loop 17:23:26 -!- sz0 [~user@92.44.62.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:05 (loop for (item . rest) on list do (princ item) when rest do (terpri)) 17:24:52 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:25:00 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:12 if that's what you meant by "a loop" 17:27:25 -!- benkard [~benkard@tmo-106-38.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:27:45 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.73] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:29:08 zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.213.121] has joined #lisp 17:29:17 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:34 aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 -!- aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:10 benkard [~benkard@tmo-107-133.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:11 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:13 yati [~yati@223.239.192.71] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 pranavrc: "~(~& your stuff ~)" maybe 17:43:27 why lower case? 17:44:20 stassats: what do you mean? write "~(~& YOUR STUFF ~)" in the example? :P 17:44:31 clhs ~( 17:44:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm 17:45:45 stassats: oooh sorry i mean tilde-braces for looping over list 17:46:05 ~^~% works fine inside ~{ 17:46:14 so, i don't know what pranavrc is asking 17:46:22 but he's been silent for 20 minutes 17:49:55 -!- ykm [~ykm@38.snat-111-91-51.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:50:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:51:13 uhh, sorry for trailing off. 17:51:24 (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for i in '("foo" "bar" "baz") do (format s "~a~%" i))) 17:51:44 so, why not use ~{ then? 17:51:45 that gives me "foo~%bar~%baz~%" 17:51:58 anyhow, i gave you the answer for this case as well 17:51:59 one sec. 17:52:02 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:07 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 17:53:13 Alright, thanks 17:53:15 PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has joined #lisp 17:54:11 just for posterity: (format nil "~{~a~^~%~}" '("foo" "bar" "baz")) 17:54:14 -!- splittist [~splittist@192-39.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:00 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:02:44 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:24 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Quit: xaxisx] 18:04:29 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 MrMc [~user@91-65-133-127-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:49 -!- seangrov` [~user@173-164-213-29-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:06 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: leaving] 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Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:13:36 ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-216-221-63-51.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 20:13:46 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-216-221-63-51.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:46 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 francogrex [~user@109.128.109.112] has joined #lisp 20:16:59 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-212-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:24:51 add^_ [~user@m5-241-132-120.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:12 bitonic [~user@catv-80-99-254-250.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:29:35 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:05 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:10 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:33:18 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-192-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:36:59 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.202.40] has joined #lisp 20:38:51 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|away 20:40:36 hey guys. I'm currently seeing software deisgn patterns in school right now (GoF mostly) and I was wondering if there was a similar reference for lisp-related patterns? 20:40:52 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40:53 it doesn't make much sense for lisp 20:41:09 lisp happened to be not brain-damaged 20:41:30 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Quit: xaxisx] 20:42:41 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 then what about GRASP? 20:44:36 How does one "just know" where to put stuff? ie. I've tried to write very simple major modes for emacs and most of the time I had the hardest time figuring out where to start. I don't quite know how assign responsabilities properly 20:45:13 you usually just do what you need, without over-thinking it 20:45:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:22 doldrim [~doldrim@nat/cisco/x-vpruhcqjsmlyixvg] has joined #lisp 20:45:33 -!- doldrim [~doldrim@nat/cisco/x-vpruhcqjsmlyixvg] has left #lisp 20:45:45 ugh. 20:45:59 It's true though. 20:46:24 I'm not questioning it, it just doesn't solve my problem! 20:46:26 ldionmarcil: probably you should just look at examples of other major modes 20:46:28 of course you need to be competent in that area and know what tools you have available 20:46:50 'course i've only written a very simple one, so i'm not the best advice-giver 20:46:59 yes, my very limited experience with LISP definitely does not help 20:47:08 ldionmarcil: What problem do you have then? 20:47:32 Solving problems in specific is always better than trying to apply a "general solution". 20:47:37 -!- bitonic [~user@catv-80-99-254-250.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:47:51 Well for example, writing a "typical" program in Java, I would assign a class to be a controller, then start from there. Build the components it needs to interact with it and assign responsabilities to object 20:47:53 so, the solution is not some fancy patterns but learning lisp 20:47:59 Now with elisp this doesn't really apply at all 20:48:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:48:45 ldionmarcil: you could start by looking at examples of using define-major-mode in the elisp manual 20:48:57 emacs is not the topic here, but it's still the same, you just split your task into subtasks and implement them 20:49:02 -!- |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:44 you don't even need to define any modes to start writing in elisp 20:50:16 same as you don't need to create packages or asdf system in CL 20:50:24 no java boilerplate 20:50:53 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:51:13 when you'll come up to writing large systems, you'll be well-proficient with the language and environment and figure things out 20:51:13 |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has joined #lisp 20:52:40 -!- benkard [~benkard@tmo-107-133.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:53:37 I guess I am over-complicating things 20:54:02 indeed 20:54:05 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:54:17 Throw away the objects and just think in functions. 20:54:24 easy to say! 20:54:56 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:11 *stassats* imagines kids learning programming in Logo, by first setting up a version control system, and then using MVC and writing unit tests 20:55:17 Focus on the individual problems. What /tasks/ do you need to achieve and how can you split them up into simpler tasks. Tasks are all functional things, so you implement them one by one. 20:55:27 stassats: euch, that sounds horrible 20:56:01 It's really weird to start over again and think in a completely different way 20:56:17 it's not really that different, it just seems that it is, that's the problem 20:56:28 ldionmarcil: your key problem is your preconception about how a program should be organized, as it doesn't seem to apply in Lisp 20:57:04 ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 20:57:07 computation is the same everywhere, but things like java fossilizes some concepts preventing from seeing the big picture 20:57:09 ldionmarcil: reading existing code will help you shed that preconception, or alternatively define a specific problem (as some have suggested) and see how people here would solve it 20:57:09 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:22 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:22 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:02 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 ldionmarcil: in general, Lisp doesn't impose a particular mode of organization, as it can be built upwards towards a model that best suits your *particular* problem 20:58:31 that has been my experience, anyway 20:59:08 Yes and so far I like that about the language... it adapts to you, instead of you adapting to the language. that's nice 20:59:17 maybe i'm just talking out of my a** though 20:59:20 well, you can adapt it to you, more accurately :) 21:00:05 so, as suggested, define a specific problem, and see the suggestions 21:00:26 and focus on the suggestions on high-level organization, as it seems that is your biggest concern 21:00:55 (I'm assuming that the detailed level of the code isn't such a problem) 21:02:24 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.202.40] has left #lisp 21:02:35 if I want to ensure that I can access a namespace in a system but not merge it to the current package I would just declare it as a dependency in asdf and use the fully qualified name to use it right? (ie. cl-opengl:enable withouth including it in the defpackage form but in the depends-on of asd) 21:03:17 yes 21:03:34 you can also use any package nicknames 21:03:55 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:10 -!- elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:11 with fixed terminology: "access exported symbols of a package without using it in the current package" 21:05:22 and packages and asdf systems orthogonal 21:05:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:05:58 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 thanks 21:08:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-71.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11:09 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-71.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:52 paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 21:12:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:39 -!- francogrex 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[~Glossina@75-175-73-51.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-71.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:16:56 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 22:18:06 ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 22:18:20 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:19:33 francogrex [~user@109.128.109.112] has joined #lisp 22:19:53 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/ what do you think, there are recent developements in this port 22:20:32 nyef thinks that he doesn't have time to work on it regularly 22:21:03 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af5015d.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:24 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:22:51 hmm, still I notice a lot of advance, a lot in 2012 and 2013 (latest in May) 22:22:57 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-37-243.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:30 May is like an eternity ago 22:23:57 -!- jangle 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23:02:30 -!- mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:35 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 23:06:55 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:36 -!- mhi^ [~mhi@cable-95-168-137-37.cust.telecolumbus.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:11:25 Jaynes [~Haskell@65.217.157.106] has joined #lisp 23:14:23 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:49 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d814d67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:59 tragalo [~tragalo@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:02 ahh it's a wonderful day! 23:16:50 tragalo: is it? 23:17:33 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dc129.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:19 :) 23:20:58 davazp [~user@92.251.185.254.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 23:25:12 ehu` [~ehu@089144206207.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has joined #lisp 23:25:25 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:50 -!- ehu [~ehu@089144206207.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:31:41 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:34:40 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:26 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p57A5CE20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:22 It's Tuesday. 23:36:49 minion: memo for ldionmarcil: have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/ee09f8475bc7b2a0 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.programming/msg/9e7b8aaec1794126 23:36:49 Remembered. I'll tell ldionmarcil when he/she/it next speaks. 23:37:31 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.62.104] has joined #lisp 23:37:37 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:40:46 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:28 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:42:53 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.120.230] has joined #lisp 23:49:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:57 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:43 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has joined #lisp 23:53:18 Ryan_Burnside [~ryan@63-153-66-53.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:41 Good (insert time of day here) gentlemen. 23:55:23 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:55:52 I get that Lisp is supposed to be sort of a stateless language but does that mean I'm expected to pass copies of huge lists from function to function? 23:56:16 it's not stateless, and no 23:56:19 lisp is not supposed to be a stateless language 23:56:29 lisp is not supposed to be anything, it's supposed to be everything 23:56:33 only copy lists if you want/need to. 23:56:46 Ryan_Burnside: you an do stateful programming in Lisp the same as any other language 23:56:49 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:23 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has joined #lisp 23:57:51 I see. Just read the wikipedia article on functional style programming. 23:57:52 -!- sauerkrause [~krause@cpe-24-55-25-199.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 23:58:37 But I suppose Common Lisp is not strictly functional either as it clearly supports classes. 23:58:45 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.13.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58:57 also setf 23:58:59 Ryan_Burnside: when you say "stateless" do you mean avoiding side effects -- ie. functional? Lisp makes it possible to incorporate all styles rather cleanly. 23:59:24 I was trying to setf a value being passed in from a parameter with unexpected results... 23:59:26 You do what you need, when you need it. The trick is knowing what you need... 23:59:51 Ryan_Burnside: you're probably confused about scope