00:01:25 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:12:09 sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:10 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:12:10 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:14:29 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:07 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~ryan@63-153-65-134.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 00:16:17 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 00:17:07 fenton1 [~fenton@ppp-124-121-117-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:27:31 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:28:57 jaccarmac [~Adium@c-67-182-91-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:15 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:29:16 Hello! 00:32:51 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-d24be555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:34:23 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.20.158] has joined #lisp 00:36:10 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:06 [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 00:37:07 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:33 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 00:40:58 -!- harish_ [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:42:32 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:45 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-53-89.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:41 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:11 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.41.200] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:13 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:47 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:50:33 aveatquevale [~NGQ@2a01:e35:2e57:5eb0:221:6aff:fe61:3294] has joined #lisp 00:51:18 i'm trying to evaluate a form that is passed as a string 00:51:35 -!- aveatquevale [~NGQ@2a01:e35:2e57:5eb0:221:6aff:fe61:3294] has quit [Client Quit] 00:51:49 i wonder if either of these are better, because of that "read-from-string" gives multiple values 00:51:53 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5934693/ 00:52:30 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-rketrumhvlqrxvcd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:52:33 They're equivalent, except the first one conses a list and then ignores all but its car 00:52:58 And the first one returns only one value, but the second returns multiple values 00:53:15 And you probably want to say (eval (read-from-string ...)) 00:53:23 -!- jaccarmac [~Adium@c-67-182-91-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:53:40 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-53-89.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:14 i thought that the 2nd should return multiple values. but in my lisp, it does not (slime, sbcl) 00:54:39 that's why i wrote the first, because i expected the 2nd to return multiple values 00:54:46 Oh, right. You probably want to say '(read-from-string ,string) 00:55:01 You're doing the eval at compile time 00:55:05 Er... the read 00:55:20 ldionmarcil [~maden@66.36.147.242] has joined #lisp 00:55:30 That's `(read-from-string ,string) 00:55:31 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@66.36.147.242] has quit [Changing host] 00:55:31 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 00:55:38 backquite 00:55:40 backquote 00:55:57 this is part of a modification to my repl - i want forms/input in parenthesis to be evaluated by lisp & things without parenthesis to be evaluated by bash/sh 00:56:00 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-99-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:56:09 But I see no reason why that should be a macro 00:56:24 i originally wrote it as --- `(read-from-string ,string) -- but that returns simply the form, unevaluated 00:56:43 honestly i don't know why i'm trying to hard not to use (eval) 00:56:53 i guess there is no actual difference in a case like this? 00:56:56 If you're doing a read-eval-print loop, you need to use eval 00:57:32 But you're right to avoid it in general 00:57:55 why do i need to use eval, why is it advantageous to a macro? 00:57:58 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:58:06 (thank you so much for your time on this by the way, i really appreciate the help) 00:58:28 Well, somebody has to eval somewhere. 00:59:11 lol. but it's my understanding that usually eval is a way out of writing a macro 00:59:22 maybe i just don't quite understand why eval is avoided in the first place 00:59:43 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 00:59:46 In normal code, macros make syntax simplifications for things you write a lot. 00:59:49 i get what you're saying ... eval happens somewhere, otherwise it's just a rpl. and that's not very useful. 01:00:05 But if the user is typing strings, and you need to read and eval them, you need to READ-FROM-STRING and EVEL them 01:00:07 EVAL 01:00:35 Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-65-134.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:13 How do I just return the first value in find-symbol? I want to omit the status... 01:01:27 Ryan_Burnside: (values (find-symbol ...)) 01:02:15 Heh, seems that turning a string into a symbol just keeps getting more and more nested. 01:02:35 tell me about it, Ryan_Burnside 01:02:59 i'm thinking maybe i want to avoid reading into a string in the first place 01:03:29 Ryan_Burnside: for what are you turning a string into a symbol 01:04:50 I'm asking a user for a item, this item is a key in an assoc list. :) 01:04:56 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:57 Bike: seems to do what I need. 01:05:05 good 01:05:15 though if you're just putting this into an assoc call you don't need it 01:06:02 Maybe I should just use strings as keys in the assoc. 01:06:25 why not just use symbols & (read) the input 01:06:31 -!- fenton1 [~fenton@ppp-124-121-117-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:06:38 are they long 01:06:56 No, just "feet" "inches" "millimeters" etc 01:07:00 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@66-192-9-99.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:07:04 It is a conversion program. 01:07:52 ah, yeah why not just use (read) then and get a symbol right-off 01:08:07 because read reads a lot of things that aren't symbols. 01:08:08 I'll try. 01:08:25 you don't want a user to be able to enter (foo #.(launch-the-missiles) bar). 01:09:12 lol yes of course 01:09:39 i got the feeling this is more a personal tool that isn't going to be run by a hacker (other than ryan) 01:09:53 (assoc (find-symbol (read-line) "RYANCO") table) oughta be fine 01:09:59 I'm going to assume that the other 99% of the world doesn't know how to Lisp. 01:10:26 Just a personal tool. :) 01:10:26 the 1% that does counts & preys upon that assumption 01:10:31 i'd listen to Bike 01:11:15 also it is better to write well even when nobody's looking. agree, Bike? your norms become your values. 01:11:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:30 *gasp* you mean not everyone writes code in Java, C#, and PHP? 01:11:58 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:28 yes yes they all do but isn't protecting your source from even your own abuse the best way to get exercise 01:13:00 I agree. I'm just sick of seeing those 3 in all the job ads. I'd love to see Lisp. 01:13:18 fenton1 [~fenton@ppp-124-121-117-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:13:30 i'm even getting shut out of open-source projects for using commonlisp 01:13:39 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 01:13:50 and for favoring perl to php 01:13:55 dark times 01:14:03 It is a shame, people throwing away the classic languages that are so cross platform. Putting all their eggs in the Microsoft/Oracle basket. 01:14:09 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:14:35 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:46 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:30 it's odd isn't it, that the closed-source bits are so widely used 01:15:47 i guess most people who get into development are idiots 01:15:57 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-161-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:13 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 01:16:52 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 01:17:09 I love Linux myself, we use Linux servers at work. Instead of having C, C++, Python, and CL programmers we use a bunch of UBER heavy Java based middleware. 01:17:10 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 01:18:23 i never used java much. i mean, i'm fluent, as one needs to be, but it never became necessary for what i do, which is mostly artificial intelligence research, music theory stuff especially 01:18:28 what is it that you do 01:18:46 Medicade processing of EDI files for Centene. 01:19:09 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-99-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:19:15 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-161-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:19:20 oh sheesh get back to work then lol 01:19:21 Java, the file processing language. 01:19:26 (just kidding) 01:19:38 is that what they call it, simon 01:19:44 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-137-145.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:01 ;-) 01:20:11 I'm off work now. :) I really don't care for the job. I can't get down to the bare metal of programming. Sadly. Just not very creative. I've love to program. 01:20:55 oh come on ryan. get creative with it. there's always a way to automate one thing while you work on another, even if the second thing is simply thinking of what to do next. 01:21:28 I've been very naughty. Sometimes I ssh into my home server and write programs. 01:22:18 nothing naughty about that, honestly - the better you get, the more likely you are to innovate the way your medicade data is processed or something else 01:22:40 it's not as hard as it sounds to relate your ssh tinkering to your jobby-job workings 01:22:53 Ryan_Burnside: would you mind show me how to ssh to home PC ? 01:22:56 just make one thing, make another thing, triangulate and connect the dots 01:23:06 I could do a great deal of good for the company by writing software but they insist on off the shelf solutions that essentially are designed to eliminate programming. 01:23:30 zRecursive, what operating system do you use for the client? 01:23:39 freebsd 01:24:05 aw i just tried to login as guest/guest 01:24:06 no luck 01:24:07 normally I run "ssh username@xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx where the x's are your IP 01:24:30 oh, you have fixed IP 01:24:51 my home PC is using ADSL 01:24:54 Unfortunatly no, I have an hourly cron job that grabs the outside IP and emails it to me if it changes. 01:25:09 what a cool idea ryan! 01:25:22 i'm going to implement that when i get home 01:25:28 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-13-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:25:29 Thank you, you can wget the data from one of those "what is my ip" pages. 01:25:34 Ryan_Burnside: thx 01:25:42 i have a myip.sh 01:26:09 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 01:26:18 It is not ideal for mission critical work but worst case you have to wait an hour... 01:26:20 nydel: can you share youe myip.sh ? 01:26:44 curl mystaticserve/.myip.shtml 01:26:56 sorry zRecursive if you were expecting something fun hehe 01:27:11 curl myactualserver.com/myip.shtml i meant 01:27:17 working is enough 01:27:31 What is "curl" 01:27:49 a wonderful linux program 01:28:17 Cool, I'll look into it. 01:28:55 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:30:06 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:28 zRecursive: here it actually is http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5934788/ 01:30:50 nydel: thanks 01:31:23 (please don't be too mean if you insist on trying to break my server) 01:31:51 heh 01:32:15 Cleaner then my wget->grep->diff mess. 01:32:24 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-115-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:32:33 feel free to use it ryan 01:32:49 Thanks! 01:33:54 what does your cronjob look like, i wanna set this to email me the output of ./myip every 2h 01:34:33 i recall a program called sendemail that works okay but maybe perl has something easy built in 01:34:58 lolcat324220 [5518b8d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.24.184.208] has joined #lisp 01:36:12 -!- lolcat324220 [5518b8d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.24.184.208] has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:18 oh i'm an idiot. i have a server. i just mount it with curlftpfs & use the crontab to run ./myip.sh > /mounted/server/www/yourip.txt every 2h 01:38:23 That is a cleaner way. I don't have the script anymore I messed something up earlier this week and ended up throwing it away in frusteration. 01:38:31 I messed up my host. 01:38:40 It was only sending error messages to my gmail... 01:38:58 you could do the same thing ryan with dropbox 01:39:04 you don't need a server 01:39:21 Yep, I do have dropbox that might be a good idea. 01:39:24 just run dropbox on your linux & have the crontab run myip.sh to output to a file in your dropbox's public 01:39:34 Exactly. 01:39:45 in fact that's what i'm going to do instead of mount the whole server 01:39:59 curlftpfs is great but it hasn't been the most stable technology ever for me 01:41:17 you could use lftp -c to upload that single file .. or better yet, scp 01:41:54 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:42:35 aspect: thank you, sometimes i metaphorically mount the whole server instead of upload the single file because i'm not thinking straight 01:43:05 scp is perfect solution 01:43:13 -!- nibalizer [nibz@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:44:46 I have to admit I was rather horrified at both your approaches .. ftp? mounted? double indirection through dropbox? :-) 01:45:16 But but but Hacker bouns points for extra convolutions! 01:46:03 I see regexp, but no json! 01:46:55 aspect it's because the job of getting yourself your own ip seems so easy, i wasn't thinking how simple scp file me@there:~ is 01:47:21 aspect: could you look at my script for getting my ip & see if i did anything stupid 01:47:39 it was http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5934788/ 01:48:52 looks fine to me 01:51:48 -!- BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:51:51 best solution i've come up with yet for getting my external ip. i bet there's something else though 01:54:48 barglfargl [~barglfarg@24-197-167-134.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:05 -!- barglfargl [~barglfarg@24-197-167-134.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59:59 So, I want to try keeping unit tests adjacent to the public functions they test, but still in a separate package and loaded on demand (rather than loaded with the system theyre testing). Does something already exist? 02:01:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:55 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-ohwuuthuduproifq] has joined #lisp 02:05:25 nydel, since you can access your server via ssh, you could just use the source ip of that connection 02:05:53 *aspect* would probably run a small daemon of some sort 02:08:45 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:10:51 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:56 barglfargl [~barglfarg@24-197-167-134.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:25 in a sh script, expr=... ~/ccl/fx86cl -n -Q -l util -e '(progn $expr (ccl:quit))' always reports "Error: Unbound variable: $EXPR" ? 02:14:52 <|3b|> "" ? 02:15:19 the expr is (foo ...) 02:15:20 if you want the shell to expand that, you'll want "" 02:16:43 `~/ccl/fx86cl -n -Q -l $MD/money/money -e '(progn "$expr" (ccl:quit))'` no error, but not eval the $expr 02:17:12 <|3b|> "" instead of '' 02:18:48 |3b|: thx, it works but sometimes i need to use \" in the $expr ? 02:21:47 Hmmm any way to cast a string to floating point number? 02:22:05 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:23 that's parsing. there's a library for it in cliki somewhere. 02:22:26 parse-float maybe? 02:23:54 <|3b|> minion: parse-number 02:23:54 parse-number: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 02:24:44 finding base-2 floats for base-10 strings is a pretty great problem. i think it's exponential in the worst case? pretty fantastic. 02:28:31 Odd that they don't have it by default. Were they not reading input as strings in the 70's? 02:28:53 <|3b|> they would probably have used READ in the 70s 02:29:07 <|3b|> much less untrusted/malicious input to deal with then :/ 02:29:29 the lisp reader is kind of... unmodular at times, i think 02:29:55 <|3b|> probably would have used symbols for text too (also with READ) 02:31:08 Perhaps only people trusted to run Symbolics machines were already programmers. I guess you wouldn't code for dummies... 02:31:29 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-049.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:04 <|3b|> more that the only input came from the users, so if they break it, it is their problem 02:33:07 <|3b|> and relative value of making users deal with problems vs making computer deal with it has changed since then 02:34:37 http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/docs/arnesi/html/api/function_005FIT.BESE.ARNESI_003A_003APARSE-FLOAT.html 02:34:42 Holy cow! 02:36:19 you thought it would be easy? :) 02:37:03 Gooder`` [~user@42.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:36 -!- barglfargl [~barglfarg@24-197-167-134.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:17 -!- Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:42:05 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 02:43:18 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:27 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:47:18 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:48:06 Bike: I think I'm just going to make an unsafe version, a series of multiplications and additions. 02:48:24 Just for my own practice. 02:48:35 you're probably going to get a very inaccurate result! i'd be interested to see how your implementation compares, though 02:49:59 Ah, just realized what you mean... 02:50:08 The problem comes after the decimal point... 02:50:47 When you are calculating char*1/10 + char*1/100 + char*1/1000 02:52:18 Then again CL allows for fractions maybe I can preserve the data loss until the end... 02:52:18 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 02:59:34 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:44 -!- Gooder`` [~user@42.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:53 Gooder [~user@42.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:58 -!- chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:06:22 L1ghtMee [~lighymyfi@67.221.255.72] has joined #lisp 03:06:23 -!- L1ghtMee [~lighymyfi@67.221.255.72] has left #lisp 03:08:14 mrrob [~teh_cake@50.7.1.18] has joined #lisp 03:09:33 ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-66-36-147-242.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 03:09:44 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-66-36-147-242.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 03:09:44 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 03:10:08 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.120.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:10:08 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:00 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:15:19 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:18:20 -!- mrrob [~teh_cake@50.7.1.18] has quit [Quit: mrrob] 03:23:01 -!- fenton1 [~fenton@ppp-124-121-117-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:28:20 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-049.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:03 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 03:33:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:11 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:39:07 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:33 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:42:06 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:43:08 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:45:40 Hmmm I think I'm using LET wrong. I want to use the item in the parameter in the first calculation, then use the first variable in the other two... http://paste.ofcode.org/Y2Yet7wcfTxAu5MLUSfHv2 03:46:39 Ryan_Burnside: LET*? 03:47:05 Oh, you have that already  next time Ill look at the code first. 03:47:13 No problem. :) 03:47:29 Says it doesn't recognize "str" 03:47:33 Ryan_Burnside: Looks right at a quick glance  03:47:57 <|3b|> Ryan_Burnside: works better if you paste an actual error message 03:48:06 Sure, one moment. 03:48:14 no need, it's just a typo 03:48:15 Ryan_Burnside: Your paren is in the wrong place for (subseq str 0 ) 03:48:20 (whole-part (subseq str 0 ) decimal-position) is wrong 03:49:10 Ah! 03:49:14 I see the missing paren 03:49:23 "STR is unused" is just extraneous 03:50:00 Well in str to come in from the parameter... 03:50:08 *I need 03:50:17 mrrob [~teh_cake@108-230-189-189.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:27 it'll be fine once you fix the typo 03:50:50 by 'extraneous' i mean that it's not a real error, just something that happens if the LET* is wrong 03:51:00 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:57 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:54:12 Got it. 03:54:36 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:45 Now we have the first and last parts of the decimal being found. Time to break them up and apply maths. 03:54:58 what happens is, the compiler discards the entire let* form since it's wrong, so it gets a function definition like (defun string-to-float (str) [nothing!]) and that leaves str unused 03:55:55 Oh and by the way, what is the most accepted way to get a GUI in Common Lisp? Web interface? 03:56:54 <|3b|> web interface is popular, some people use gui libs from commercial implementations, there is also commonqt 03:57:59 I just hate expecting the platform to have a web browser. Might have to look into commonqt. Using a browser sort of feels like a cludge when writing desktop software. 04:00:00 There is also the Cocoa bridge in CCL, if youre make a Mac app. 04:01:44 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 04:02:55 I like the browser approach myself since it works on the big 3 oses no problem, if I had to do a non browser that I wanted on all platforms seems like clojure would be easier to do it in with having the java swing stuff 04:03:31 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:03:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:03:51 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-117-144.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:06:58 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:13:45 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:03 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 04:15:25 -!- 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On his blog, wasn't it? 09:52:19 Probably on Lisp Tips 09:52:27 lisp tips is a no 09:52:35 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:52:57 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:53:10 got it: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html 09:53:13 loke: thanks 09:53:46 yeah, that's the one 09:55:23 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:58:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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11:27:47 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-56-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:37 hello 11:33:23 -!- ehu [~Erik@089144206056.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:48 ehu [~Erik@109.34.63.15] has joined #lisp 11:35:16 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:35:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:37:24 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:40:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:35 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:42 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:56 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:43:20 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:44:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-97-42.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has 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[~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 -!- xristos_ is now known as xristos 13:07:13 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:11 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:59 echo-area [~user@111.196.2.211] has joined #lisp 13:12:05 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:14:21 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:23 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:19:04 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 13:19:21 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:03 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:23:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 13:25:43 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:26:45 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:09 stassats: my new assignment (dijkstra's shortest path) runs in 4ms which is already one of the fastest posted so far 13:34:28 that of course means it would run at most 0.4 ms if you coded it 13:34:31 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:53 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:11 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 13:37:22 asobrasil [~andre_oli@64.119.216.178] has joined #lisp 13:38:15 in -4ms 13:38:19 finishes before you run it 13:38:38 coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.138.27] has joined #lisp 13:39:41 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:39:54 sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:54 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:39:54 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:40:18 Made with alien technology. 13:40:58 ... please don't break causality. It's messy to cleanup 13:41:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:41:14 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:15 p_l: A continuation should fix that 13:41:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:41:46 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:15 Shinmera: as I said, "messy". 13:42:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:45 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-24-173-184-38.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:06 Speaking of continuations, does anyone if there is a particular reason Common Lisp doesn't include Continuations? 13:46:24 Or was it simply not up for discussion at the time of the standard? 13:46:39 Shinmera: I don't know about original reasons, but I recall that fitting continuations and conditions at the same time is problematic 13:46:46 it's hard to implement them efficiently 13:47:26 p_l: stassats: Ah, I see. Fair enough then. 13:47:29 Thanks 13:47:59 and their utility is questionable 13:48:36 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-38-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:49:33 both are models so is a 'design' decision 13:51:24 akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.160.65] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 -!- cabaire [~nobody@gateway05.m3-connect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:16 -!- coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.138.27] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:45 i just wonder why people think lisp is generally slow? 13:56:11 garbage collection, usually people don't specify types, etc 13:56:13 people are known for thinking all kinds of wrong things 13:56:19 xificurC: misinformation, history, misunderstandings, and several other "mis-" 13:56:32 because of the notion of "high level -> slow" 13:56:44 cargo culting in general 13:56:55 most people I've talked to and who've never been using lisp before think it's an "interpreted language" (whatever that means) and that given the flexibility (real macros, compiler available at runtime, conditions, you name it), it must then be slow 13:57:57 so the first thing I do is tell them it's compiled to machine code, mostly, depending on the implementation, and that implementations that compile to bytecode are rare (ABCL, and I think clisp but I'm really not sure) 13:57:58 so its just prejudice 13:58:11 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-80-209.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:24 knowing before you try it 13:58:38 it's "the hell it's interpreted", from people who don't bother about that at all when using python, ruby, Java, C# or javascript 13:58:46 stassats, it is not weird to think a lisp program will be slower than a C program 13:58:57 There's also a nasty rumor that lists are the only supported datastructure 13:59:07 I think everything negative I've heard/read about Lisp was either because of prejudice or because they had to use Scheme very briefly at University. 13:59:14 another influence in this direction is university professors using notes from before CLtL1 to teach classes 13:59:17 it's so much harder to write any advanced algorithm in C though that really I do wonder about C being that faster ;-) 13:59:21 dim: different people complain about different things 13:59:59 dlowe: yeah 14:00:00 Shinmera: If they get Scheme, it's already good - they might have (mis)used (or just worked out on paper) clisp/cmucl using code examples that were written when Maclisp was young 14:00:16 about lists, I've seen programmers using hash table to represent trees when having to use perl 14:00:29 that's best practice in perl 14:00:51 well they were passable developers, but still, you could argue from that that perl only offers hash tables... if you wanted to reverse the list trolling 14:00:56 dim: a big part of C's memetic speed is that the compiler can fuck you sideways in the name of optimalization 14:01:04 dim: most people don't know that, though 14:01:45 I've read a presentation, recently, about C model of evaluation and what little the standard impose on the compilers 14:01:49 it was frightening 14:01:59 hehe 14:02:09 compiler and memory barriers are only the beginning 14:02:10 a big part of C's speed is the fact they don't need to right shift every god damn fixnum 14:02:14 Shinmera, http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~hxt/research/exncontjournal.pdf 14:03:42 rszeno: ooh, that sounds interesting, thanks! 14:04:52 Quadrescence: untagging fixnums is cheap 14:04:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:06 and it needs to be done only at the function boundaries 14:05:59 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 stassats, are you saying the speed detriment is negligible? 14:06:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 Quadrescence: depending on CPU architecture, it could be even done as part of load to register 14:10:06 yrk [~user@70-88-223-253-BusName-MarketName.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:24 -!- yrk [~user@70-88-223-253-BusName-MarketName.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:10:24 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 14:10:42 p_l, Why aren't my large lisp programs typically as fast as the C equivalent, with declarations, out of curiosity? 14:11:24 Quadrescence: are you sure it's fixnums? There are various other places, depending on workload 14:12:02 No I'm not sure of fixnums. 14:12:17 An interesting example I know of is some of the Google services that are explicitly written only in C/C++, not because of compiler speed, but because it doesn't include any extra checks etc. when it has to do syscalls 14:12:19 chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:35 and said code does a *LOT* of syscalls (lots of network I/O etc.) 14:13:10 synchronization points related to making sure that GC doesn't flip belly up etc. can introduce other slowdowns 14:13:17 Quadrescence: it is negligible indeed, at least on modern superscalar CPUs 14:13:30 I see. 14:14:04 going into bignums is far more expensive 14:14:18 Yes. 14:14:50 the small functions nature is also what makes it slower than C 14:14:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-239.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:02 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.73] has joined #lisp 14:15:07 Quadrescence: on modern CPU, shifting a fixnum is much lower cost than anything that causes i-stream change, or even an unprefetched non-parallel memory load. things like calling a function, for example 14:15:14 if there was whole-program compilation and all types were optimally declared, it would be just as fast 14:15:39 stassats: ... does that include (optimize (fuck-me-sideways 3)) ? 14:15:41 p_l, yes 14:15:47 p_l: no 14:16:02 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16:28 also, a big budget for and an army of developers wouldn't hurt 14:16:34 yeah 14:16:49 *stassats* experimented yesterday with a way to make untyped AREF to be 1.5 faster 14:16:57 not sure if the complications are worth it, though 14:17:22 would aggressive inlining help? a lot? 14:17:39 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-239.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:46 dim: blind inlining would hurt instruction caches 14:17:53 Still, SBCL these days might miss only a better GC (possibly not even that) to be good enough in commercial games 14:17:59 whole program compilation would achieve the best results 14:18:00 (pretty big name games, even) 14:18:12 -!- rurumate [~scanty@213.23.120.114] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:18:22 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:31 G'morning all. 14:18:31 I'm not sure what you mean by whole program compilation? the current CL compilers currently only consider a function at a time? 14:18:44 deployment and gc control, imo 14:19:00 dim: basically take half-generated program fully into consideration and do optimization on the whole at a time 14:19:05 p_l: last I saw improvements to the GC mentionned here it was about it having per-thread behavior, ala Erlang 14:19:49 do you have an example of an optimisation you can apply to the whole at a time but not to a single function? 14:20:12 tolk [~user@host219.190-31-36.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:20:30 you can remove code-paths from functions which aren't used by any other functions 14:20:55 you can avoid boxing and unboxing, tagging/untagging of objects as well 14:22:50 I think I see... would you have the same gains with declaring the types of your bindings everywhere? 14:23:08 Hi. I can't quickload "lispbuilder-sdl-cffi" on ECL, it says "The function CFFI::%CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY is undefined.", dunno what to do. 14:24:30 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-38-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:51 tolk: It could be that it just doesn't work on ECL. Are you using the latest ECL? 14:25:56 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:19 i think it is one of the latest git commits (git:44c86e083c30ad9e057df1a91e8168600a99a2f6) 14:26:28 (13.5.1) 14:26:35 or is a os/distro specific problem 14:26:40 -!- chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:27:16 -!- agr [~agr@200-170-124-141.corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Quit: agr] 14:27:37 rszeno: well, deployment can be tricky... but believe me, deploying a Mono application can be *hell* 14:27:52 deploying SBCL/CCL is easy compared to Mono 14:27:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:16 yes, deploying is hell with any language, :) 14:28:18 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:28:37 i think lispbuilder-sdl once worked on ECL when i tried it a couple of months ago 14:28:55 rszeno: There are degrees of hell 14:29:51 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 I was once involved in a commercial .NET application and we started looking into deploying a binary on linux as well... 14:30:04 SBCL was really, really easy in comparison 14:31:38 are big avantages in using quicklisp and asdf 14:31:42 AeroNotix [~xeno@abom244.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:31:53 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 more like there are big advantages to SBCL/CCL dumping a big fat happy executable that dynamically loads the binaries 14:32:32 s/binaries/DSOs/ 14:32:34 but i still belive that is possible to make things better 14:35:19 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-fhuhjqfhlxpryfvi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:26 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD099A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:27 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:13 hey guys how do I do a bitwise comparison? for instance, xff & x02 14:41:39 logand? 14:42:15 thanks 14:42:28 think I missed that and didn't find it when searching 14:43:51 ahungry: also checkout logtest 14:43:58 thanks guys 14:46:10 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:47:08 And the BOOLE function. 14:51:33 *Xach* would love to see boole in the wild 14:53:05 nyef: sorry for ditching last evening 14:53:10 Xach: hope you're feeling better 14:53:12 btw, regarding cost of (un)tagging - the hot (not)new kid on the block, ARM, includes a shift operation in (nearly?) every instruction, or at least all non-vfp load-stores 14:53:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:09 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:55:52 dlowe: No problem, it was good to see you, even if it was just briefly. 14:56:11 dlowe: Thanks, a bit. Ibuprofen & rest helped. 14:57:34 ni291187 [u931732@72.26.208.197] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host147-171-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:03:28 _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 15:05:51 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:07:22 -!- jagaj [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jagaj] 15:07:53 -!- ni291187 [u931732@72.26.208.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:56 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:40 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-131-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:48 Posterdati [~antani@host103-221-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-24-173-184-38.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 15:12:14 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:14:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp 15:14:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:14 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:36 ni291187 [~u931732@63.133.183.2] has joined #lisp 15:17:43 -!- ni291187 [~u931732@63.133.183.2] has left #lisp 15:19:11 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:29 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [] 15:22:07 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:20 hi, anybody tried quil? it's a bridge between processing and clojure. i compiled an example, but it's hella slow - otoh don't know what to expect. 15:25:05 I'd expect the people in #clojure would be very interested. 15:25:08 before you get flaked for this not being the clojure channel, the question is: any high level game-like library for CL? :) 15:25:23 antoszka: don't think so. 15:25:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:43 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:25:52 antoszka: not sure but we're working on game stuff in CL in #lispgames 15:26:28 if you're looking for something like rpgmaker though then no 15:26:38 yeah, tkd, hang around in #lispgames, I forgot about that place 15:27:19 (and the project, generally) 15:27:22 cl-tcod? 15:27:23 dlowe: i tried #quil and it's like one guy there, didn't think enough to try #clojure :) 15:27:44 peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-188-198-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:27:45 actually not really game-like 15:27:53 more like, well, processing or cinder or toxic 15:28:11 high level audio/visual interactive programming, optimally with data visualization facilities 15:28:18 nope 15:28:32 is what i'm looking for, i mean 15:29:02 visual no but i think there is some sound and music stuff 15:31:02 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:04 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboa67.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:37:09 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:39:35 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD099A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:39:49 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abom244.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:41:08 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:47 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:13 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:01 -!- _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@nat-gw1.edb.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:45:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:46:23 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:40 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 15:48:00 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:24 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:05 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 15:53:04 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:06 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:09 coreytrevor [~ma@94.229.74.91] has joined #lisp 15:54:17 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:53 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 15:55:10 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-131-57.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:13 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:22 kcurtis [~user@1x-193-157-193-183.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:56:28 hi, is there a general way to extract an object's ID? (those that look like {10076BEF43} etc) 15:57:35 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:43 kcurtis: no 15:58:00 kcurtis: if there was, what might you do with it? 15:58:09 maybe there is another way to do it 15:59:21 Xach: I want to use it as an unique identifier 16:00:27 uniq at runtime or persistent between sessions 16:00:29 ? 16:00:42 kcurtis: to what end? 16:01:09 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:02:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:03:19 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:45 -!- BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:54 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:07 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:07:08 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:08:05 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-131-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:08:44 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:09:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-179-192.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:24 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:10:08 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-188-198-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 16:10:23 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:30 Xach, rszeno: at runtime. I want to send the id over the network, to uniquely identify clients 16:11:17 url? 16:11:18 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 G88881 [~user@1x-193-157-206-242.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 rszeno: url what? 16:12:29 kcurtis: just use a UUID? 16:12:56 you can use url, build each one using host, pid, timestamp, etc. 16:13:07 You could use an eq hash table, weak if necessary. 16:13:11 as you need 16:13:56 could anyone of you recommend a CL library to connect to an Oracle DB? 16:14:00 (defun object-id (object) (or (gethash object *id-table*) (setf (gethash object *id-table) (incf *id-counter*)))))) 16:14:15 Blkt: commonsql does it. i think some hu.dwim stuff does too. 16:14:25 uncommonsql too, though not enabled in quicklisp. 16:15:21 what's the status of hu.dwim stuff? 16:15:24 aveatquevale [~NGQ@2a01:e35:2e57:5eb0:221:6aff:fe61:3294] has joined #lisp 16:15:29 I don't know. 16:15:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:15:49 -!- aveatquevale [~NGQ@2a01:e35:2e57:5eb0:221:6aff:fe61:3294] has quit [Client Quit] 16:15:49 thanks anyway :) 16:17:16 dr_diamond [~NGQ@unaffiliated/dr-diamond/x-6130392] has joined #lisp 16:18:03 -!- G88881 [~user@1x-193-157-206-242.uio.no] has left #lisp 16:18:10 Xach, rszeno: aight, thanks! 16:18:11 -!- kcurtis [~user@1x-193-157-193-183.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:24 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:43 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:23:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:24:20 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:21 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:13 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:03 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:40 -!- karswell` [~user@87.113.254.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:30 sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:31 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:36:31 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:39:39 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-185.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 16:39:46 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:29 andreh [bd7215da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.114.21.218] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.140.221] has joined #lisp 16:42:01 -!- andreh [bd7215da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.114.21.218] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:47:33 zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.232.242] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 16:52:55 -!- dr_diamond [~NGQ@unaffiliated/dr-diamond/x-6130392] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:54:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-88-106.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:57:23 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:26 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.140.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:58 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 16:59:25 I have the following problem an there is probably a pattern I am missing: https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/6133213 The idea is to be able to tell which is the first invocation of a recursive tail call method call 16:59:30 any ideas? 16:59:34 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:31 er, i doubt you can do TCO on method calls 17:00:56 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 17:01:00 hi 17:01:23 PuercoPop: did you try memoize? 17:01:24 out of curiosity, can I create a "local" dynamic binding with DECLARE somehow? 17:01:25 you mean it is not getting eliminated? Not really important for me right now 17:01:33 clhs special 17:01:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 17:02:53 mmm no, bad idea... 17:02:59 Blkt: so a memoization that expires after each call finishes? 17:04:24 that was the bad part of my idea 17:05:13 *PuercoPop* nods 17:05:14 stassats: it seems too ugly to bother, am I right about that? 17:05:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:05:50 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@178.20.70.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:05:57 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@178.20.70.196] has joined #lisp 17:05:58 PuercoPop: what are you trying to achieve? 17:06:05 a kind of set data structure? 17:06:15 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:18 -!- zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.232.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:31 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:06 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:17 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dsdcwzwkypktstcr] has joined #lisp 17:14:13 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:14:55 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:15:33 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:39 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:19:55 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:30 Ulysses22222_ [~daniel@185.3.146.116] has joined #lisp 17:20:38 UNIXgod [~v0id@funtoo/user/UNIXgod] has joined #lisp 17:21:47 -!- Ulysses22222 [~daniel@109.226.59.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:48 -!- Ulysses22222_ is now known as Ulysses22222 17:23:03 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:30:30 agr [~agr@186.231.79.107] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 17:31:57 Denommus: no 17:32:25 it has its place, but shouldn't be used left and right, naturally 17:33:25 josemanuel [~josemanue@53.206.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 PuercoPop: you can use a special variable for that. (defvar *from-outside* t) (defun f () (if *from-outside* (let ((*from-outside* nil)) (f)) (f))) 17:35:33 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:17 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:38:47 re symbols/variables the ONLY atoms that DO NOT evaluate to themselves? 17:38:52 (just checking) 17:39:31 stassats, pjb: i don't know if you both know but you were both mentioned in a blog entry on planet lisp...you're "famous" ! :) 17:41:19 stassats: yeah, I got that 17:41:47 lemonodor fame! 17:43:37 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-179-192.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:44:25 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-129-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:53 theseb: that was like a week ago 17:46:05 stassats: the power law post? 17:46:19 stassats: dude you were #1! 17:46:33 still am! 17:46:37 how many folks ever get to be #1 at something!? :) 17:46:38 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-129-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:53:13 HackingYodel [~user@host-72-51-216-67.newwavecomm.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-25-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:13 brzpin [~b@184.75.221.3] has joined #lisp 18:03:24 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:38 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:09:24 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:00 -!- BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:58 ffilozov [~user@84.77.187.252] has joined #lisp 18:13:19 hey there, i have the following issue, sbcl 1.1.8: http://pastebin.com/AY3Vym0h 18:13:19 can anyone tell me what i did wrong? cmucl, clisp, ecl and ccl have no prob with this code. thanks 18:15:59 brzpin: What are you running when you get that warning? 18:16:34 (setf (annotation 'a) 'something) 18:16:42 sry, forgot that part 18:16:46 francogrex [~user@91.179.255.56] has joined #lisp 18:16:50 theseb: we noticed ;-) 18:17:03 brzpin: in the repl? 18:17:08 yes 18:17:14 I wonder why so much ensuthiasm about something as trivial as this: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans ? 18:18:02 brzpin: I can't reproduce from 1.1.7, but I'm not sure I'm doing exactly what you're doing. 18:18:57 ah. i'll try 1.1.10 18:19:17 should've done that first 18:19:40 minion: memo for kcurtis: have a look at: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lisp#line677 18:19:40 Remembered. I'll tell kcurtis when he/she/it next speaks. 18:21:34 Currently learning common lisp. Which books have good, idiomatic code to learn from? 18:21:54 PAIP 18:21:58 wbooze [4e23815c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.35.129.92] has joined #lisp 18:21:59 HackingYodel: Practical Common Lisp and PAIP 18:22:05 = Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp 18:22:17 I bet just PAIP is googleable 18:22:27 yep. first hit. 18:22:34 Thank you. I have PAIP ordered now. 18:23:59 -!- UNIXgod [~v0id@funtoo/user/UNIXgod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:29 Let over Lambda was enjoyable too 18:24:55 Land of Lisp I hear is nice, it's on my book shelf waiting for the right moment 18:25:40 Land of Lisp looks interesting but I wasn't sure how solid the code was. 18:25:50 I wouldn't describe Let Over Lambda or Land of Lisp as idiomatic 18:25:56 everything a-ok. it was 1.1.8 18:26:16 brzpin: weird! 18:26:43 splittist [~splittist@192-39.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:27:01 morning 18:30:28 brzpin: it doesn't look like one of the issues that got fixed during that period 18:31:47 What is the naming convention used for naming a file containing class definitions and defgeneric boilerplate and another file with the implemented defmethods (kinda like prototypes in headers (.h) and implementation in (.c)) 18:32:12 it's .lisp all the way 18:32:20 heh, of course 18:33:35 my-class.h and my-class.c (that's how I would do it in C), but in CL, do people just write the defgenerics and the defmethods in the same file? 18:33:39 samebchase: it's usually divided up differently into package declarations, compiler declarations, and then other code 18:34:19 samebchase: yes. the whole file is loaded into the image, so there's no reason to separate the interface and implementation that way 18:34:55 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 I just thought separating things would allow a person to quickly figure out what the interface does 18:35:46 sometimes yes, sometimes no 18:36:10 M-. is just a press away 18:36:13 samebchase: you might separate things into interfaces/protocols and implementations of that protocol. But classes and defgenerics don't necessarily belong together. 18:36:15 class defs + defgnerics are not usually put together then? 18:36:21 oaky. 18:36:51 yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has joined #lisp 18:37:38 samebchase: docstrings :) 18:38:03 also look at the exported symbols of a package 18:38:23 or all the defmethod implementations of a particular generic function are usually kept togetther? e.g. draw methods for various shapes 18:38:45 sometimes, sometimes not 18:38:59 -!- banjiewen [banjiewen@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-vzhecfcaersuqyus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:38:59 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@unaffiliated/rvncerr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:39:31 rvncerr [~rvncerr@unaffiliated/rvncerr] has joined #lisp 18:39:44 is this a "do it to your own taste" thing becauve everyone does it differently? 18:39:47 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:15 samebchase: you might have a circle.lisp file that implements all the protocols circles fulfill. Or a draw.lisp file that implements the DRAW function for all shapes. It depends (TM). 18:40:33 aha 18:41:08 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-129-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:10 banjiewen [banjiewen@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-cmadrfsfvofcowre] has joined #lisp 18:41:48 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 18:42:30 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:43:27 in my case I have a class which is not gonna have any subclasses and some defmethods. So, what is the usually done thing? 18:44:00 option A of splittist's suggestion, I think... 18:45:00 Classes don't have methods. Generic functions have methods. 18:45:19 (Ignore for the moment the class nature of generic functions...) 18:45:24 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:29 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:57 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:12 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:27 defmethods that specialise a generic function that operates on instances of the class. (Is this correct?) 18:47:58 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:58 they don't have to operate on instances 18:48:22 (defmethod foo ((sym (eql 'bar))) ...) 18:49:00 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:13 samebchase: there's no "the" class, either 18:49:18 In Allegro CL, is it possible to find out what locks or semaphores a process is waiting to acquire, and then see which threads own those synchronization mechanisms? Going through Allegro CL docs, I see that there's a way to get information about a process if you have a lock, but not the other way around. 18:49:18 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:49:26 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 18:49:41 samebchase: you could name your files thingy-interface.lisp and thingy-implementation.lisp If you have a lot of things to implement for thingies, you could have thingy-network.lisp thingy-ui.lisp, thingy-smarts.lisp, etc. 18:49:50 that method gets called whenever 'bar is passed to the generic function foo 18:49:54 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:50:10 pjb: heh. I considered that, but it seems inelegant. 18:50:40 samebchase: it doesn't really matter: you just define the dependencies in a .asd file and forget about them. Use M-. to skip from one definition to another in slime. 18:50:44 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:48 M-. and M-/ 18:50:52 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:01 and M-TAB 18:51:08 samebchase: consider DRAW medium object place "Render OBJECT to MEDIUM at PLACE" 18:51:32 pjb: yes. I shouldn't think about this too much. 18:51:52 MEDIUM could be :png, or an object representing a png file, or a vector 18:52:02 samebchase: you could easily implement in emacs a system where the toplevel forms are stored in different files managed by emacs without you ever knowing which files they're stored in. 18:52:27 When you focus on a function, it would automatically build a buffer with that function, and all the related definitions. 18:52:46 PLACE could be :top-left or (0 1) or an object representing a cartesian co-ordinate, or a polar one, or ... 18:53:09 OBJECT might be an object of a class you have defined, or a string, or... 18:53:09 or the url of an internet resource where the rendering should be PUT to. 18:54:11 CLOS is a lot more powerful than the way I'm using it. hm. 18:54:13 pjb: yes! 18:54:40 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-137-145.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:41 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:59:04 pjb: but then it would a global right? Blkt: Yes an immutable binary heap, I'm doing the excercises from Okasaki book 19:00:16 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:52 -!- ffilozov [~user@84.77.187.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:05:10 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:06:18 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:28 PuercoPop: the principle is to use a special variable. But you can make it specific to the function. 19:08:20 (defun f () (declare (special f)) (if (boundp 'f) (f) (let (f) (f)))) 19:08:33 -!- HackingYodel [~user@host-72-51-216-67.newwavecomm.net] has left #lisp 19:08:45 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.134] has joined #lisp 19:09:31 or you could write a macro to bind and initialize f first, and revert to (if f (let (f) (f)) (f)) ;-) 19:10:00 Blkt: I believe Allegro has some kind of Oracle support. You could also use ODBC 19:10:12 -!- Wukix` is now known as Wukix 19:10:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:11:15 pjb: ahh I thought I had to declare it after I define it in let block. Also can I check if a variable is defined in a package right? 19:11:49 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:44 I declared it special in the defun, is it's valid for the whole function body. 19:13:05 "variable is defined in a package" is meaningless. 19:13:15 You could do that if you defined what it'd mean. 19:13:17 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3757.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:45 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:14:57 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-222-34-9.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:33 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.255.56] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:18:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-67-239.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:19:46 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.203.185] has joined #lisp 19:21:28 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@71-222-34-9.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:21:52 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:23:19 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-41-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:45 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:24:17 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:24:44 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-216-59-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:26:28 ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:49 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:34:09 -!- agr [~agr@186.231.79.107] has quit [Quit: agr] 19:35:57 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:37:07 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:36 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:41:21 now an important question. do you use #'(lambda or (lambda? more people seem to prefer the #'-variant? 19:41:40 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:14 brzpin: #' is slightly more portable 19:42:50 in case somebody is using symbolics genera? 19:43:51 Isn't there one case in Common Lisp proper where the difference is actually significant? 19:43:55 brzpin: I used to use #'(lambda ...) but don't any more. 19:44:10 nyef: ((lambda (x) x) 42) 19:44:16 A binding form of some sort, to do with the condition / restart system, maybe? 19:44:20 brzpin: I don't really know why. 19:44:30 nyef: ah yes, that too, I think. Krystof knows by heart. 19:45:27 ((lambda (x) x) 42) now that's a slick one 19:47:57 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@53.206.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:48:28 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-216-59-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:48:36 nyef: :report-name in define-condition, it seems 19:49:03 see I'd forgotten that 19:49:08 thank you for bringing it back 19:49:13 where's my whisky 19:49:48 http://yellow5.com/pokey/archive/index115.html probably. 19:58:40 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-129-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:17 -!- wbooze [4e23815c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.35.129.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:03:51 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:54 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:53 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:04 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-160.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:40 So I can't use block/return from across functions? https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/6134786 20:10:56 no. block is lexical. 20:11:09 you want catch/throw (or maybe not, since it's sorta nasty) 20:14:32 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:14:48 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|away 20:15:53 I' thinking if you using returning multiple values ala go? 20:15:58 *I'm 20:16:10 nah, just use try/catch 20:17:08 I was doing try/catch but I can't just return a value apparently but have to wrap it in a restart. Let me undo the code until handlercase 20:17:12 sec 20:17:24 er, what? 20:17:29 -!- _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 20:17:35 try/catch hasn't got anything to do with conditions 20:18:11 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:19:10 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19:39 ok, looking closer, this is kind of messy. rather than using an :around, why not have a user-called insert, that calls an %insert gf. 20:19:49 nvm I just remembered I had misjudged the mistake. I had a malform cond form and thought it was expecting the a function call in the last position of the error clases. 20:20:04 you mean a helper function right? 20:20:25 sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:26 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:20:26 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 sure. 20:20:51 that way you could not do all the first-call stuff. 20:24:06 yeah, I you are right I got overexciting trying to use features of CL that I don't really need. Gonna try to make it work with around on my own before rewritting in a clearner way. Is prepending a function/method with % an idiom for indication it is private? 20:24:24 Sort of. Or unsafe, or internal in some way. 20:24:36 *overexcited 20:24:36 unsafe meaning it expects its arguments to have been previously vetted 20:25:34 *PuercoPop* nods 20:26:28 btw Xach if you don't mind me asking, is there an specific reason with you didn't approach the png library with cffi wrappers in png? 20:30:31 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.90.148] has joined #lisp 20:30:48 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-213-230.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:32:25 PuercoPop: too hard 20:32:50 (for me) 20:33:33 also, i wanted it to work on CL on any platform 20:34:43 -!- pjb [~user@AMontsouris-651-1-252-173.w92-163.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:35:08 rtoyg [chatzilla@nat/google/x-cdtkebeidshiiefh] has joined #lisp 20:35:36 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:35:37 -!- rtoyg [chatzilla@nat/google/x-cdtkebeidshiiefh] has left #lisp 20:39:23 So you decided that learning cffi was too much of a hassle? (also libpng was ABI changes iirc so it is a hairy package imho). 20:39:34 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:39:42 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:39:45 But for interacting with graphics there is no other way right? (excepto for XCB) 20:40:03 I think writing a png library in CL is a pretty cool idea btw 20:40:24 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.140.221] has joined #lisp 20:40:48 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-48-170.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:43:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-41-180.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:45:01 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboa67.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:45:29 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:21 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:53 PuercoPop: what do you mean by interacting with graphics? 20:49:49 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:58 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-60-162.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:24 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:50:40 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-065-160.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:05 -!- ph88 [5597cc14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.151.204.20] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:55:25 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:48 Xach: doing a Tetris on for example 20:57:05 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:47 besides OpenGL I don't know any way of makine a window or a Canvas natively in CL 20:59:28 There's Qt bindings 21:00:00 PuercoPop: what does "natively" mean? 21:00:09 Shinmera: i think what he wants to do is more low level, like cairo, but I just logged in so I don't know 21:00:18 I'm not sure either 21:00:36 Cairo would've been my first suggestion, but "window" threw me off 21:00:38 Not having to wrap around C code. 21:01:31 PuercoPop: CLX does not really wrap around C code, but it also doesn't do much that would be considered interesting these days 21:02:10 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03:50 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.160.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:00 Xach: I am aware of CLX but it only works with X server. I'm going to get to installing linux because everything is broken for Mac OSX :() 21:04:39 PuercoPop: how about using vecto to create svg data and using Qt to render the SVG? 21:04:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:05:35 could be a way, there are two bindings right? 21:05:55 to Qt? 21:06:06 I think only one of them is still active though. 21:06:15 CommonQt is the only one that's active, yeah 21:06:25 cl-smoke is inactive IIRC and EQL only works on ECL 21:06:27 PuercoPop: It seems like Clozure CL can be used pretty well to write Mac applications. 21:06:36 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:58 CLX on quicklisp is broken 21:07:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:30 there is an old patch that fixes it, but it was never merged 21:07:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-21.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:07:54 I use the patched version in my local-projects to avoid the problem 21:08:42 It sounds like you should be the owner of CLX! 21:09:16 Heh. I'm rather glad that I'm not on that hook anymore. (-: 21:09:23 -!- keen________ [~blackened@p3b9314f9.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:48 Xach: I don't understand a lot about X development, I just use the version that someone else made. If you want the link for his github, I'll gladly provide you 21:09:49 keen________ [~blackened@p3b9314f9.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:09:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:09:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:10:02 there was some CL-project trying to imitate glfw, but currently i can't find it. had some easy name like clon cloq.... 21:10:12 clinch? 21:10:16 <|3b|> glop? 21:10:29 Something unrelated: Has anyone tried running/compiling SBCL on ARM platforms before? I'd be interested in running it on my Raspberry PI, but haven't found anything in the AUR. 21:10:32 PuercoPop, still in NYC? 21:10:33 Xach: although it would be nice to contribute to Common Lisp somehow :) 21:10:44 glop 21:10:48 Shinmera: There's an incomplete port. 21:11:10 nyef: Is it still being worked on? 21:11:13 Shinmera, yes, Alastair tried, but didn't go all the way. I believe he might have written notes about it somewhere. 21:11:25 https://github.com/patzy/glop/issues 21:11:25 doesn't get much love 21:11:27 Shinmera, that said, CCL works on ARM, no hacking required 21:11:28 Not actively, I've been busy recently. 21:11:51 I left off with the next step being getting alien-funcall working. 21:11:54 Fare: Ah, neat, I'll try that then. 21:12:09 cl-glfw and cl-sdl are also kinda outdated... 21:12:25 *lispbuilder. i mean lispbuilder, not cl-sdl 21:12:36 s0ber_ [~s0ber@1-164-212-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:44 I used to use #'(lambda ...) now I use ( ...) 21:12:45 Fare: yeah, going to stay at least to end of August, probably until the end of Sept 21:13:06 Fare: ? 21:13:07 PuercoPop, let's hang out at some point. When's the next relevant social event? 21:13:16 Denommus, see lambda-reader.asd 21:13:22 Fare: I use lambda, but my editor shows it as  21:14:55 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-230-87.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15:12 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:15:16 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZz] 21:15:19 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@unaffiliated/rvncerr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 21:15:34 brzpin: that reminds me that I can't use lispbuilder-sdl in ECL. I wonder why 21:15:36 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:19 -!- brzpin [~b@184.75.221.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:19:49 That's a great idea. I think LispNyC meets the second week of the month always, Aug 13. This weekend I'm going to be in Philly visiting a cousin. But next week we could go grab something or something similar. I know of a great Peruvian restaurant in Brooklyn. 21:23:07 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.90.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-25-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 21:24:58 Wukix: thanks for your answer, I read it only now 21:25:07 I wish there were more lispers in my city so I could make a meeting like that ): 21:25:46 benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-25-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:07 here the closest thing to a lisp meeting is a ruby con :c 21:26:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.140.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:29:58 eudoxia: do you have ruby cons? Lucky you :P 21:30:27 with a lot of luck, I have one Java convention in the course of one year 21:31:02 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:31:28 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:53 namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:38 -!- asobrasil [~andre_oli@64.119.216.178] has left #lisp 21:35:49 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 21:37:48 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-123-168-44.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:38:35 OK, let's meet next at the LispNYC meeting 21:38:55 eudoxia, did you cross the ruby con? 21:39:46 cross as in attend? 21:42:14 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:22 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:42:50 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:33 -!- joooooo [oosool3@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:47:37 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@107.19.160.35] has joined #lisp 21:48:18 nope, as in traverse and be dead. 21:49:06 or as in  21:49:49 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 21:53:11 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 21:54:56 tolk` [~user@host66.186-125-224.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:55:27 -!- jxriddle [~jxriddle@74-132-175-208.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: jxriddle] 21:55:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:09 -!- tolk [~user@host219.190-31-36.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:32 -!- tolk` is now known as tolk 21:58:52 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:49 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:01:22 when using eql dispatching, is it possible to have a "catch-all" method? 22:01:42 no specializers or t 22:01:46 naturally 22:02:15 the fact that you have to ask this question suggest that you have some form of confusion 22:02:25 well it seems that without specializers (using SBCL) the catch all is always called, and the specialized function are not 22:02:29 stassats: indeed 22:02:39 that is not true 22:02:52 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@107.19.160.35] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 22:03:38 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:46 the other interpretation is that my dynamically interned symbols are not eql to the ones in the method definitions 22:03:59 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 22:05:22 when (in-package #:foo), (defmethod bar ((arg (eql 'x))) ...) then x in interned into foo? 22:06:06 yes, it effectively does (intern "X" :foo) 22:06:30 which may be inherited or imported from other packages, but that detail is irrelevant 22:06:54 so, (let ((tag-name (intern (klacks:current-qname source) :pubnames))) (parse-osm-tag source tag-name)) should call the method parse-osm-tag with tag-name being a symbol in the :pubnames package, right? 22:07:37 if that's what's going on, yes 22:07:39 aaah, string-upcase the damn input it seems 22:07:53 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:10 and find-symbol is a better candidate 22:08:20 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:46 a hashtable on strings is better still 22:09:13 thanks for your patience, I've been bitten by the default case of the reader yet again 22:10:02 find-symbol ok, still with string-upcase though 22:10:51 dim: you can work with symbols like |MyName|, just be sure to always use |MyName|. 22:10:51 not if it's in modern-mode or with maimed readtable-case 22:11:20 pjb: I read some symbols in an XML file currently, so... 22:14:40 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-80-209.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-25-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 22:24:18 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:46 benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-25-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:27 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 22:26:58 sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:58 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:26:58 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:31:21 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:36:25 zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.254.61] has joined #lisp 22:36:56 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.46] has joined #lisp 22:38:20 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:39:28 -!- entitativity [~entity@c-50-136-180-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:40:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:19 entitativity [~entity@c-50-136-180-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:01 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:59 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 22:53:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-25-56.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 22:54:30 do people here use abcl, linj or uabcl if they have to run on the jvm? 22:54:57 no, just take up heavy drinking 22:55:25 the jvm is pretty awesome though... except for the whole tco thing 23:00:08 why do you consider the JVM "awesome"? 23:00:27 ubikation: abcl i would think 23:00:47 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:00:59 ubikation: Kawa Scheme implements TCO on the JVM, so... I guess that's just an excuse 23:01:11 Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-65-134.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 ubikation: but yeah, ABCL is usually the answer. Don't expect for it to work on android, though 23:01:30 Thank you CARio but our PRINCess is in another CADR. 23:01:57 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:44 Wukix: I really like certain aspects of the JVM, and it's performance is pretty crazy 23:02:46 @Bike I finished my little converter for string to decimal. 23:03:15 Bike, Denommus: Thanks, I'll stick to ABCL. Just curious about the fracturing I guess. 23:03:48 ubikation: why do you need the JVM, though? 23:04:09 Also that's insane that Kawa Scheme implements tco. I've watched a few Clojure presentations recently and they kept mentioning how it's impossible to do on the JVM stack and that recur somehow makes it better. 23:04:41 "performance is pretty crazy" doesn't explain why ABCL is quite slow 23:04:50 yes, it's required by Scheme's standard that tco is implemented. It may be an ugly implementation, but it's required 23:04:59 isn't abcl slow because the compiler is primitive 23:05:01 Wukix: wes ? 23:05:05 Bike: yes 23:05:16 well I'm working with a Java library, and I'd like to see how the interaction is 23:05:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp 23:05:29 Bike: ABCL is sucky, but it's the best implementation for the JVM around, sadly 23:05:40 what does that mean that ABCL uses a primitive compiler? 23:05:54 just that its compiler doesn't really optimize 23:05:57 Bike: yes, just the statement about performance is contradictory 23:06:04 ubikation: compared to other Common Lisp implementations and other JVM's languages, ABCL is weak 23:06:18 fe[nl]ix: yes. hi! 23:06:25 I think the reason is because lispers usually don't care about the JVM 23:06:59 Wukix: how's your project going ? 23:07:21 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:07:31 ubikation: SBCL's performance is pretty crazy too. Plus it actually works well for CL 23:08:08 ubikation: unfortunately, if you really NEED the JVM, you should consider other language. If you want a Lisp, Clojure and Kawa Scheme are the best ones 23:08:17 well I'm really kind of making the decision based on having to do work with stuff already on the JVM. I guess I was a bit too eager to defend ABCL. 23:08:22 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:26 ubikation: but I'd rather recommend you to stick with CL and throw the JVM away, if you can. SBCL is great 23:08:36 Why do you recommend Kawa over ABCL? 23:08:47 ubikation: because Kawa is a good implementation 23:08:49 somebody said Scheme is a Lisp, uh oh! 23:08:52 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:55 ubikation: it even works on android 23:08:58 based on what? 23:09:01 ooh that is cool 23:09:42 Bike: http://pastebin.com/LpbuxX1P (still need to work on extra length, currently using PARSE-INT 23:09:47 ubikation: performance-wise, implements the whole standard, works accross different JVMs (like the JVM itself and Dalvik), so yeah, I think it's possible to say that Kawa is a good implementation 23:10:05 ubikation: out of curiosity, which JVM libraries do you need? Why do you need them? 23:10:50 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:51 well I've had this idea for a while.... but I haven't done anything with it because I have a lot of difficulty programming 23:10:53 fe[nl]ix: it's going. working on it as we speak. cool things coming in the future 23:11:12 from a sysadmin's point of view, the JVM has many many advantages over plain SBCL 23:11:17 "whole #, no ." is a convoluted way to say "integer" 23:11:23 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:43 fe[nl]ix: I know there are valid reasons for using the JVM, but I want to know his reasons :) 23:12:04 Ryan_Burnside: you don't need any of the VALUES calls 23:12:11 Oh... 23:12:23 Not sure how to just get the first item though. The function returns 2... 23:12:52 Ryan_Burnside: all but the first are discarded normally. try (+ (parse-integer "48") 9) in your repl if you don't believe me 23:12:56 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:59 fe[nl]ix: I administered tomcat (JVM) servers once. Didn't care for it 23:13:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:28 I believe you, I'm just very new to Common Lisp. :) 23:13:43 funny thing: once I worked for a company where we worked with tomcat, and the leader developer was called... Jerry 23:14:07 basically I want to extend CLOS with Akka and implement reactive objects in a modern way 23:14:19 http://staff.www.ltu.se/~nordland/Thesis.pdf and http://uberblo.gs/2011/12/scala-akka-and-erlang-actor-benchmarks 23:14:33 are the two things that kind of put the idea in my head 23:14:39 I'm not referring to regular Unix sysadmin stuff 23:14:46 -!- __prefect [~prefect@koln-5d817e88.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:48 *stassats* received an above normal daily dose of buzzwords 23:14:51 what is Akka? 23:14:54 but support for remote monitoring, better GC 23:15:02 presumably something in those links. 23:15:13 Basically the best part of erlang as a library for the jvm. 23:15:24 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:43 oh 23:15:53 It's written in scala (ugh) but the performance is absolutely insane. 23:16:05 Ryan_Burnside: do you not allow "6.02e23" sorts of literals? 23:16:09 that's why I wanted to use abcl... because of clos 23:16:23 to make performance more sane? 23:16:31 ubikation: well, you'd probably need something like MOP to do that, I'm not even sure if ABCL has MOP 23:16:34 tinyclos and the other derivatives looked too dysfunctinal for me to start picking up 23:16:38 Denommus: it does 23:16:39 Denommus: it does have MOP 23:16:48 nice to know 23:16:50 I think it got it recently 23:16:53 lol 23:17:22 (although the performance certainly won't be... hmm... insane) 23:18:22 and synthetic benchmarks never impress me 23:20:16 also I really wanted to screw around with simple distributed computation. Cloud Haskell is a really cool library that's been tempting me but I feel much more productive screwing aroun in lisp 23:20:47 I'd rather have an impressively expressive language than an impressively fast one. I rarely really need insane performance. When I do, I optimize the code 23:20:56 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 23:22:57 Denommus: you have no idea what you're saying 23:23:07 well I kind of have only written crud stuff myself... I was just curious if other people might find it interesting 23:24:40 fe[nl]ix: uh... I have 23:25:12 Bike: I'll just handle the normalized xxx.xxx way for now. Then I'll handle the other cases and tie them together as case statements in one function. 23:25:15 ubikation: it is interesting, I find distributed computing interesting, and it would be cool to have a library to do that transparently in CLOS 23:28:26 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:48 ubikation: but I'm one to think that this library would be even better if it worked across implementations 23:29:01 ubikation: or at least in a more used implementation 23:29:11 yeah that's not going to happen. It's either abcl or nothing at this point. 23:29:25 chord [322f5788@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.87.136] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 I'm too dumb to worry about cross platform/implementation issues. 23:29:35 ubikation: well, try to do it in ABCL. When you're done, let me know 23:29:39 -!- chord [322f5788@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.87.136] has left #lisp 23:29:45 I barely know how any of the cl implementations work 23:30:33 hi, I'm playing with http://www.lwh.jp/lisp/, which is a cool explanation of a lisp interpreter implemented in C 23:30:57 meh, unless you're using implementation-specific code or taking undefined behavior as defined, you shouldn't have much problems 23:31:11 of course, calling the JVM through ABCL IS implementation-dependant XD 23:31:23 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dsdcwzwkypktstcr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:27 and it raises a couple of interesting questions, like, what's a good way to design the data structures 23:32:15 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has joined #lisp 23:32:38 -!- ISF is now known as Guest91483 23:32:59 jaccarmac [~Adium@c-67-182-91-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:15 also, when do I "stop" programming in C? i.e., when do I define that my interpreter does enough, and then stand on top of that to implement my lisp in lisp (and not miss out on stuff like JIT) 23:33:20 -!- jaccarmac [~Adium@c-67-182-91-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:34 Tordek: this channel is actually Common Lisp specific 23:34:44 Tordek: the topic makes that clear 23:34:45 oh :( 23:34:45 well I code really slowly... so it might take me a while to have anything to show. 23:34:55 Tordek: but, answering your question 23:34:56 minion: chant 23:34:56 MORE USED 23:35:57 Tordek: there isn't an absolute truth about that. You can create a minimal Lisp (Norvig minimized Lisp to a small set of definitions) and build everything on top of that using functions and macros 23:36:29 Tordek: or, because of performance, you could build more things in C until you think that you can build on top of that language 23:36:56 Tordek: if you're learning, I think the former is a good approach 23:37:52 -!- echo-area [~user@111.196.2.211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:13 Denommus: yeah, this is just a toy implementation, but the topic is interesting and I'd like to look at it more deeply; in particular, stuff like compilation 23:39:06 Tordek: try to look up for Norvig's implementation of Lisp in Python to know his minimal lisp 23:39:16 now, enough off-topic 23:39:37 ok, thanks! 23:45:31 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.3] 23:45:58 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 23:56:38 -!- libertas [~libertas@87-196-52-138.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:03 zRecursive [~czsq888@222.209.243.98] has joined #lisp 23:59:55 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]