00:00:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:00:46 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 00:01:05 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:09 Right, and the problem with (subtypep x t) is that it can rightfully return T,T for any (even non-existent) x. 00:04:52 So it seems there's no good solution. 00:05:33 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-35-230.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:51 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:06 probably not. what are you doing? 00:06:33 Bike: I'm making plet (parallel let) understand type decls. 00:06:49 It works well, except for that bump. 00:06:52 sounds like a good way to suffer 00:07:24 Are you not expanding into something that does the declarations for you? 00:09:46 I don't think that's possible because the underlying thing is a future. I extract the type in order to get (symbol-macrolet ((x (the fixnum (force ...))))). 00:10:07 Ot 00:10:16 It's the result which is typed, not the variable. 00:10:25 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:37 so why do you need to know if it's an actual type? 00:13:32 Bike: the ambiguity between custom declares and types, and handling multiple but compatible types for the same var. 00:14:18 oh, right, the whole abbreviating (type whatever ...) as (whatever ...) bit. I'm not sure there's any way to do that portably. 00:15:53 arrdem [~reid@ip68-231-200-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:01 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:02 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:17:17 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:26 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:27 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:19:09 A custom declare is symbol, so I think it works out in the end. 00:19:30 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:43 karswell [~user@87.112.161.139] has joined #lisp 00:24:10 Well it doesn't really work out because there's no macroexpand for deftypes. 00:24:56 -!- elliottcable^ is now known as elliottcable 00:25:43 there's one in sb-ext, and it's pretty easy to do in ccl too 00:26:20 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:26:37 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:34 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:51 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:20 xadd [~xxad@host-VLEP3x-158.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has joined #lisp 00:29:50 Bike: you're the first hit for 'ccl typexpand' 00:30:13 hm, so i am. scary 00:30:24 I would have expected cltl2 to have something like this. 00:30:37 with all declaration info and so forth 00:30:50 with declaration-info you can at least see if a symbol's a declaration name 00:32:36 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 00:34:20 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:44 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:03 lmj`: like i mention in the comments there's ccl::type-expand, though 00:35:56 so I have this idea of using lisp to edit a gui application that you're making, edits are effected immediately from the repl and so on. a similar idea to this is running OpenGL live, allowing someone at a repl to change what gets drawn and so on. the closest I got was newlisp and its use of the java guiserver application, but once you "run" the application you lose control at the repl and can't make edits on the running program until you close it. 00:35:56 I crazy? 00:36:06 y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has joined #lisp 00:37:30 jangle: thankfully, programming ideas rarely constitute symptoms of mental illness 00:38:38 Bike: Thats a relief. But still the idea persists, build a gui application, as you're using it. Draw OpenGL, edit the canvas, live from the repl 00:38:46 Bike: I think declaration-information should be sufficient, which is supported by CCL,SBCL,LW,ACL. 00:39:08 lmj`: i think abcl was working on cltl2, too 00:39:22 jangle: i think i've done that in cl-gtkwhatever, and you can probably do it in most of them 00:40:07 now if only I can get more fluent in slime and cl 00:40:19 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:75e7:e6a5:5e79:3ae9] has joined #lisp 00:40:34 marco bringer's slime tutorial should be required, I don't know how I had been missing it for so long 00:40:40 *barigner 00:40:41 jangle: you're describing the way lisp applications are often developed, i.e. modifying a running application. 00:43:32 lmj`: cool. I look forward to exploring it 00:48:19 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:49:27 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 00:49:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-62-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:09 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-62-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:38 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:30 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:05 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@54.41.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 00:54:38 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:55:58 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:36 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:59:17 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:34 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-190-225.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:26 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-190-225.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:52 d11wtq_ios [~d11wtq_io@p26190-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:04:54 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c3cbd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:51 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75db05.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09:55 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:12:47 jangle: I've been exploring variations on that idea for some, and depending on what you want to do it's quite a bit trickier than live editing an opengl application 01:12:52 *for some time 01:13:54 Dalek_Baldwin: you mean editing a gui application live is harder than doing the same thing with an opengl application? 01:14:15 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E916C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:16:09 -!- d11wtq_ios [~d11wtq_io@p26190-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:35 macrohelp [4a60bf25@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.96.191.37] has joined #lisp 01:16:43 well, the way I've seen people do these sorts of things for opengl has largely involved simple one-way data flow, like for a shader editor 01:16:58 ok 01:17:48 hey, could anyone help me with a macro that modifies the accessors to a struct? I can't seem to get the modifed accessor to stick. 01:18:13 macrohelp: what's up? 01:18:56 ive got a macro that is this: http://pastebin.ca/2384810 01:19:32 essentially i want to wrap an accessor in a function, so i can add a call whenever the member of the struct is accessed. 01:19:41 Grizzly [~Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-240-232.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:19:45 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:53 -!- scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:08 -!- Gr1zzly [~Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-328-254.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:20:19 -!- Grizzly is now known as Gr1zzly 01:20:30 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:20:42 -!- Gr1zzly is now known as ter 01:20:45 -!- ter is now known as Gr1zzly 01:20:55 _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:20:55 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:21:17 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 01:21:34 when i try to macroexpand `(defun ,prev-name (struct)(break)(funcall ,prev-accessor struct)) , i get a really wierd expansion. 01:21:59 yeah, that'll probably expand into something impl-specific. 01:22:23 ok, im running lispworks and getting (DSPEC:DEF (DEFUN TEST-FIELD2) (DSPEC:INSTALL-DEFUN (QUOTE TEST-FIELD2) (DSPEC:LOCATION) (FUNCTION (LAMBDA (STRUCT) (DECLARE (SYSTEM::SOURCE-LEVEL #)) (DECLARE (LAMBDA-NAME TEST-FIELD2)) (BREAK) (FUNCALL # STRUCT))))) 01:22:38 and? 01:23:01 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:23:28 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.22.187] has joined #lisp 01:23:35 well when i call it on a struct with a few fields, the defun doesnt take effect and im stuck with the old accessor 01:23:51 anyway, you don't need a macro for that, you can do (let ((orig (fdefinition accessor))) (setf (fdefinition accessor) (lambda (obj) (break) (funcall orig obj)))), not that I'd do that. 01:24:38 macrohelp: CLOS is more amenable to this kind of intercession. 01:24:53 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:24:55 primenum [~primenum@c-71-231-57-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:03 alch___ [~michael@pb6abea75.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:29:07 Are the common-lisp.net mailing list archives coming back? 01:29:26 is there any difference between symbol-function and fdefinition? 01:29:38 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:46 not in this context 01:29:59 xach's right, though, you should use other mechanisms 01:30:54 yeah I know I should be using CLOS, but i'm trying to add a tracking mechanism to some code that uses all structs so ill see if that work 01:30:55 s 01:31:39 hmm wondering if Slime guys will accept patch resurrecting swank-snapshot stuff 01:31:55 sthalik [~sthalik@2001:470:600d:dead:8810:e525:e50e:39df] has joined #lisp 01:32:05 stassm been less anal recently, or maybe I'm getting immunity :-) 01:32:23 qt is such a 01:32:38 stassats, not here? 01:32:47 no wonder, it's 3am 01:32:55 whats your problem with qt 01:33:16 maxm-: layout engines, also commonqt doesn't exactly make interop easy :( 01:33:23 sorry 01:33:35 layout in itself 01:33:38 hmm, you have the qt-repl setup right? 01:33:41 layouts are easy 01:33:46 when I try to use indent-sexp, i get "scan error, containing expression ends prematurely" 01:34:11 maxm-: quiloader seems not that useful when it comes to making niceties interop with cl 01:34:52 jangle: that's probably the case, then 01:34:56 not familiar with quiloader 01:35:28 Bike: haha yea, but I don't understand what its trying to tell me, or why it can't indent my sexp because of it. 01:35:38 thanks, Bike that seems to work perfectly 01:35:39 maxm-: it's the dreaded 'designer, except due to erased nature of C++, there's no way at all to access some property of the thingie 01:35:56 jangle: you have an expression like "(foo bar", so it can't finish the sexp 01:36:37 http://i.imgur.com/Uo6nECc.png <- i did a little wrapper, that basically lets you edit any CLOS object with full undo and such 01:36:43 Bike: so I close my sexp with parens and watch where they match up. and I 01:36:49 i've fully closed the sexp 01:36:55 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-60-3.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:27 Bike: oh I've figured it out, I have to use the command on the top level 01:37:33 everything is connected via signals, adjusts the model -> redraws the screen 01:38:06 I actually plan to release the Qt MVC editor part 01:38:09 coz its awesome 01:39:30 -!- macrohelp [4a60bf25@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.96.191.37] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:39:51 *maxm-* had never used qt designer, why.. You doing lisp with qt wrong 01:40:19 you can actually debug and develop everything right on the screen from REPL, its so much faster then C++ 01:41:10 maxm-: i was thinking of making an ui on top of anything, but it's a project in itself 01:41:39 imho "on top of anything" leads to bad ui.. You have to use least common denominator 01:42:10 sometimes you can't help it, like redhat or suse, have to make their system admin tools work with a) gnome b) kde) c) from text terminal 01:42:42 and imho opensuse YaST is as far as you can go in that direction... Its functional and does the job, but not something you call pretty or beatiful 01:42:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:34 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:38 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:43:51 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:36 maxm-: most that's needed is fonts, io and blitting pixmaps 01:47:38 well if you mean like do everything youself style? like what eve-online does? 01:49:16 chameco_ [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:21 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:51:28 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:51:28 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:51:30 -!- chameco_ [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:52:03 sthalik: That's a very cumbersome process, that is bound to be a pain to use for the users. 01:52:47 sthalik: Not only will the UI paradigms differ from what people are used to, you'll have a hard time leveraging platform features such as hardware compositing 02:00:36 building on cairo on the like as support abstraction would help though; as for the paradigms, many ajax sites have their custom oddities as well 02:01:33 if you want to integrate with native look and feel then you need to use existing UIs or their abstractions though 02:03:25 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 02:08:35 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-162.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 02:09:23 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:34 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10:43 Bike: what's an example of known-type-p failing? 02:12:10 lmj`: the earlier subtypep one? (deftype foo () '(and integer string)); (subtypep 'foo nil) => unspecified 02:13:00 Lis [~Lis@p3E9E916C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:14:03 Bike: that works on sbcl and ccl at least 02:14:59 Why is it unspecified? It's equivalent to the empty type, right? 02:15:29 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 02:15:34 yeah, but with conjunctions, disjunctions, and negations it gets pretty hard quick. 02:15:54 lmj`: doesn't work on abcl (which has a pretty weak type system) 02:16:20 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 02:17:20 Bike_ [~Glossina@75-164-172-217.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:44 Bike: But isn't it still well-defined as far as CL goes? I can work around abcl bugs. 02:20:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-62-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:21:48 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:22:04 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@75-164-172-217.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:23:15 Bike [~Glossina@75-164-173-11.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:54 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 02:24:36 lmj`: it's well-defined, yes 02:25:26 lmj`: presumably it's undefined in order to allow implementations to not bother with the fairly complicated behavior necessary, as abcl does 02:25:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:11 lmj`: http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/277 example of complicated type interactions with a well-defined but difficult to get result. 02:28:59 Bike: I think of function types being in the category of implementation-optional, as in the restriction of no compound function types. But CL "must bother" with regular types as I understand it. 02:29:34 lmj`: it "must bother" in that typep must work, but subtypep can just return a nil second value 02:29:54 "subtypep is permitted to return the values false and false only when at least one argument involves one of these type specifiers: and, eql, the list form of function, member, not, or, satisfies, or values" 02:30:06 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:09 Bike: yeah I had a sudden burst of optimism which made me forget our conversation from minutes ago. 02:34:45 nasty 02:34:51 did using declaration-info not work? 02:35:04 You know when you start coding something that's ugly, then you think you don't have to, and it's all bright for a moment. 02:37:00 yes indeed. 02:37:07 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E916C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51:18 Bike: declaration-info works, but I'm still stuck with needing subtypep due to multiple type declares for the same var. 02:51:41 (sort (copy-list types) #'subtypep) 02:51:55 and pick the first one 02:52:21 can't you just make it (and ...types...) 02:53:51 Well that wouldn't be much of an optimization, which is the only purpose of this. 02:54:08 The optimization is significant for the cilk-like algorithm. 02:54:25 (in the fast clone) 02:54:47 er, I don't understand. You mean you have something like (let ((var ...)) (declare (type foo var) (type bar var)) ...), right? and you're turning that into a the? 02:55:15 Yes, I want the best THE out of that. 02:55:41 surely (and foo bar) is necessarily at least as tight as foo (assuming foo <: bar) 02:56:26 Yes the compiler should know better, but does it? 02:57:07 I wouldn't want to try to outthink a compiler in that fashion, generally 02:57:20 less generally, foo and bar don't have to be related by subtype anyway 02:58:05 Hm yes my reasoning was wrong. I wanted to pick the most specific type, but none may exist. 02:58:29 well the conjunction is going to be it. 02:58:49 I think probably if the compiler can't deal with a simple conjunction type it's not going to do a lot of optimization from types anyway? 02:59:07 At least, abcl is the only implementation I know that doesn't do types so great, and its compiler is pretty simple. 02:59:24 it might have a different IR for types 02:59:32 as the CL one is pretty deficient 02:59:47 Deficient? 02:59:50 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.55.217] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:01:26 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-62-227.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:48 Bike_: lack of recursion, the actual non-decidability 03:01:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-164-173-11.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:01:58 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:01:59 lack of algebraic types... 03:02:02 mm. 03:02:10 the class/type dichotomy... 03:02:11 I don't know how helpful those would be just as an IR, though. 03:02:32 since, you can't express them anyway 03:02:49 paul0 [~paul0@177.96.55.217] has joined #lisp 03:02:51 well, nuff ranting from me 03:04:27 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:05:11 -!- arrdem [~reid@ip68-231-200-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:05:20 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:50 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-085.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:41 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:48 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 03:09:11 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:10:28 Bike: sbcl and ccl handle the conjunction efficiently, so all is well. thanks. It's a peculiar situation writing a lisp library whose only purpose is to speed things up; perhaps I've gotten overly pessimistic. 03:11:00 or just mostly healthy skepticism 03:16:24 -!- y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 03:16:29 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-201-187.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:54 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-201-187.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:10 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-201-187.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:36 -!- samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:39 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-62-227.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:17:44 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:18:43 -!- Anarch_ is now known as Anarch 03:18:53 cinolt [~cinolt@108-230-150-77.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:04 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-204-202.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:13 -!- cinolt [~cinolt@108-230-150-77.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:19:52 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-201-187.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:19:53 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:23:20 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:23:44 I probably shouldn't assume that an implementation can reduce compound types, so I'll need to benchmark and disable this fanciness on ones that don't. 03:24:11 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 03:24:46 by fanciness you mean finding and collecting all the types? 03:25:30 Yes, but on second thought I'm only dealing with CCL,SBCL,LW,ACL due to decl-info. 03:25:43 -!- PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:26:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:30:25 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:34 gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 03:33:03 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:34 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Quit: l'unica verità.. è la morte stessa!] 03:33:35 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:34:54 -!- alch___ [~michael@pb6abea75.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 03:36:06 -!- seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:38:33 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 03:39:46 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:40:04 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-60-3.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:06 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-178-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:50:10 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:25 alch___ [~michael@pb6abea75.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:52:40 p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 03:53:56 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:54:10 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:55:57 teggi [~teggi@123.20.117.83] has joined #lisp 03:57:37 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:58:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-204-202.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:59:46 -!- lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-192-49-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:00:07 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:02:57 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 04:03:25 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-50-45.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:09 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:49 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 04:08:44 -!- cnl [~pony@ppp-31-44-49-65.in-tel.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:08:47 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09:10 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:10:39 gavilan2 [~Gavilan2@cpe-198.144.156.141.ca.yorkinet.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:34 -!- Watcher7 is now known as Watcher7|off 04:15:31 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:16:26 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:57 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.63.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:17:01 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:18:10 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[reboot] 04:18:29 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:48 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:54 -!- luceres35 [~Luceres35@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:20:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-50-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:20:44 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-50-45.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:59 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:21:07 luceres35 [~Luceres35@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:20 -!- primenum [~primenum@c-71-231-57-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:40 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-190-225.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:21:45 primenum [~primenum@c-71-231-57-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:20 -!- scode [~scode@pollux.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:35 scode [~scode@pollux.scode.org] has joined #lisp 04:23:49 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 04:25:06 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 04:28:21 Oi, does anyone know what is the use of the :type in the class slots? As redline6561 brought to my attention that you can setf the slot to anything anyway. Is it for :writer methods? 04:28:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.39] has joined #lisp 04:28:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.39] has quit [Changing host] 04:28:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:28:44 optimization (maybe) 04:29:32 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 04:31:35 antgreen [~green@207.112.103.16] has joined #lisp 04:31:40 y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has joined #lisp 04:32:55 miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:22 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:38:37 gmcastil [~user@75-166-221-214.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 "The consequences of attempting to store in a slot a value that does not satisfy the type of the slot are undefined. " 04:48:19 -!- xadd [~xxad@host-VLEP3x-158.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:55:10 so I think that an implementation might not care (as if all slots would be of type T), might really store the slot with the specified type (or T), but potentially assert the type and error, or allow dangerous consequences transparently (perhaps controled via optimize level) 04:59:00 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:02:56 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:04:38 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:22 leo2007 [~leo@123.108.223.39] has joined #lisp 05:10:31 bolcselo [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:15 p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 05:13:03 -!- capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:14:41 tcr1 [~tcr@78.186.252.238] has joined #lisp 05:16:31 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:30 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 05:27:53 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:18 -!- miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:30:09 miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:30 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:36 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 05:33:49 -!- maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:59 maxm-- [~user@openchat.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:25 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 05:40:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 Gooder [~user@82.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:30 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@78.186.252.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:44:05 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 05:46:14 -!- Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:49:18 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:50:03 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:50:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:50:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:53:07 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-215-44-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 05:59:50 nug700 [~nug700@174-19-137-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:17 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: gravitation] 06:03:36 pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has joined #lisp 06:04:26 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:34 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 06:06:55 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:56 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:07:11 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:20 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:08:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:08:55 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:75e7:e6a5:5e79:3ae9] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:09:10 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:55 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:15:41 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:16:03 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-135-197-102.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:18:40 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:19:41 -!- PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:21:59 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:23:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:24:08 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:21 nostoi [~nostoi@197.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:54 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 06:32:52 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:32 -!- PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:35:23 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@197.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 06:38:45 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:38:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:38:45 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:42:30 Hmm... Is there a "correct" way to access errno from CFFI? 06:42:56 Some platforms have errno in thread local storage, which would fail if I just look up the symbol, correct? 06:44:19 errno may be just a macro 06:45:27 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:45:39 exactly 06:46:28 libfixposix has a getter and setter 06:47:03 adeht: Cool. thanks 06:47:05 if you want to define your own, you do it in the same way.. have a C file with get_errno/set_errno functions and use that 06:47:38 fixposix isn't in QL 06:47:47 Are you behind that lirbary? 06:47:52 loke: it's a C library.. used for example by iolib.. 06:48:11 loke: no.. https://github.com/sionescu/ 06:48:43 implementations may have an errno interface as well, though it may be "private" 06:49:07 IOLIB:ERRNO seens to give me the correct result 06:49:36 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 06:50:45 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 06:53:47 mvilleneuve 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[~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:27:16 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@5.255.234.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:15 agumonkey [~agu@52.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:29 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:35 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:54 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 09:31:12 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:33:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:35:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:35:29 -!- pierpa` [~user@host117-20-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:24 idea here, is it possible to eval parts of a defun say, and be asked about any undefined variables using restarts or whatever ... 09:36:52 -!- y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 09:37:00 cerror ? 09:37:39 like say you have (defun foo (arg) (let ((frob (* arg arg arg))) frob)_!_) with point at _!_, and hit some keybinding, then arg is unbound, and it would ask if you want to set a value for it to something ... 09:37:55 Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.143.82] has joined #lisp 09:37:56 wbooze: i mean interactivley in slime ... 09:39:31 well, either change wrapper (slime) behaviour or code that in..... 09:39:37 or if you put point after the silly multiplication it would also ask to bind arg to something, and you could input a 1 or whatever ... 09:40:36 hm.... easy peasy this actually... 09:41:14 of open source lisps only clisp seems to have the USE-VALUE and STORE-VALUE restarts 09:41:21 well, the lisps i have 09:42:04 yeah... 09:42:20 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has joined #lisp 09:43:03 i think it should be simple enough ... hack UNBOUND-VARIABLE to do something sensible 09:43:41 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:52 I've readed that "to enable" unicode support in clisp it's needed to pass a compilation flag. But which flag I have to pass? 09:44:27 I've not found anithing of useful in the manual (at least at the moment) ... 09:44:56 ... anything 09:45:15 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:42 http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/encoding.html here there is a phrase: "Platform Dependent: Only in CLISP built without compile-time flag UNICODE" 09:48:37 but I do not know what is this flag specified... 09:50:35 and even ./configure --help-modules does not help me at all, so I do not know how to procede. 09:51:45 I'm rambling a bit, so any help is welcome.... 09:52:49 of course, on the platform the locale is setted properly. 09:53:35 pnpuff: i don't think you read carefully enough. 09:53:57 $ ./configure --help |grep unicode --> --without-unicode no Unicode support: character=8bit 09:54:40 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:18 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.143.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:36 arshok [~AndChat35@c-76-100-81-142.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:44 zorkmoid: ok, so is supported by default 09:55:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:57:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:59:16 -!- bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:22 -!- arshok [~AndChat35@c-76-100-81-142.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:00:34 I'm experimenting some troubles with (coerce '(#\u....) 'string) but #\u.... works well. 10:01:58 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:00 but the base-char is returned properly. so #\u2345 --> #\APL_FUNCTIONAL_SYMBOL_LEFTWARDS_VANE 10:02:27 why (coerce '(#\u....) 'string) is not working well ? 10:02:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:02:44 "not working well" is not a very precise problem statement 10:05:16 but interestingly, it is not working well in the same fashion on ccl, clisp and sbcl :D 10:05:23 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:35 works for me in all: clisp, ccl64 and sbcl 10:08:32 jdz: here only "C0 Controls and Basic Latin" is working ... I do not know why... 10:08:50 pnpuff: what's your locale setting? 10:09:15 and indeed, it fails with locale "C" 10:09:42 -!- antgreen [~green@207.112.103.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:09:46 only clisp fails, though 10:09:48 pnpuff: (char (coerce '(#\u2345) 'string) 0) => #\APL_FUNCTIONAL_SYMBOL_LEFTWARDS_VANE or #\U+2345 on clisp, ccl and sbcl here 10:13:01 -!- alch___ [~michael@pb6abea75.tokyff01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 10:13:33 yes H4ns even here, anyway #\u2345 is not working well in my repl 10:14:30 what is that "working well" that you keep saying? 10:14:45 #\u0040 --> #\@ 10:15:12 pnpuff: and that is wrong exactly how? 10:15:29 #\u007e --> #\~ 10:16:13 the suspense is killing me 10:16:19 H4ns: http://www.unicode.org/charts/nameslist/c_0000.html 10:16:35 C0 Controls and Basic Latin are working well on my repl 10:16:49 others no 10:17:34 "others no" HOW, ffs? 10:18:21 Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.143.82] has joined #lisp 10:20:28 H4ns: I'm able to coerce to string only C0 Controls and Basic characters 10:20:53 pnpuff: and if you try for other characters, what happens? 10:20:53 lies! 10:21:31 (coerce '(#\u00a4) 'string) --> "¤" 10:21:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:21:56 and what does (char * 0) give you? 10:22:26 #\LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_O_WITH_STROKE 10:22:34 pnpuff: and how is that not right? 10:24:40 antgreen [~green@207.112.103.16] has joined #lisp 10:25:01 H4ns: I'm not able to coerce to string the base characters of the C1 Controls and Latin-1 Supplement table 10:25:39 argh 10:26:04 or of the C1 Controls and Latin-1 Supplement (for example) 10:26:04 is clear? 10:26:11 bitonic [~user@dyn1223-72.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:26:29 no. you still did not document how it fails. 10:26:31 pnpuff: you can coerce them to strings. you only have problem printing such strings. 10:26:37 H4ns: I'm looking here: http://www.unicode.org/charts/nameslist/ 10:27:08 jdz: yes, what I have to do? 10:27:58 pnpuff: what do you want to do? 10:28:05 jdz: it fails with locale "C" ? 10:28:12 why? 10:28:33 because locale "C" only supports ASCII characters? 10:28:35 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-156-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:27 pnpuff: you need to understand that the coerce works just fine. it is just that your strings are not printed in the way that you expect them to be printed. 10:29:56 pnpuff: you need to print them to a stream that supports the characters that you want to print. with locale "C", only ASCII characters can be printed. 10:30:21 so restrict your coercions for the case of ascii to the ascii set.... 10:30:33 case of locale "C".... 10:30:47 yes wbooze 10:31:43 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:31:48 wbooze: I'm on a new distro now: "gentoo"... so I have still to learn a bit... 10:32:54 anyway in the /etc/env.d/02locale file I have LC_COLLATE="C" and LANG="en_EN.UTF-8" 10:33:10 this is not the place for gentoo questions. 10:33:25 H4ns: sure, sorry 10:34:34 i have all my lang and lc vars set to de_DE.UTF-8 other then LC_COLLATE which is set to "C" and LC_ALL is unset... 10:35:25 sure better leave LC_ALL unsetted! :) 10:38:04 wbooze: what I have to do, seems strange: all setted poperly but does not work even after env-update && source /etc/profile ... :( 10:41:12 -!- maxm-- is now known as maxm 10:41:29 pnpuff: show code ? 10:41:45 maybe I have to restart the X server 10:41:56 or change the font..... 10:42:14 or enable utf-8 for the konsole/terminal...if it's not.... 10:42:21 there are many things ..... 10:43:28 mmm ... same terminal, same fonts etc. on different platforms and all works well.... 10:44:27 default bash profile on most linuxes does thing like setting PROFILE_LOADED=1, and then skipping loading /etc/profile.d/*.sh when its set 10:44:31 to speed up startup 10:45:13 you may look at system profile, to see what variable it uses, and unset it in your .bashrc or whatever.. you'll have to read man page on your shell, to see order of startup files 10:45:21 davazp [~user@213.37.200.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:26 *maxm* fixored it in zsh, by using timestamps, so it reloads stuff when I change it 10:49:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:52:02 y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has joined #lisp 10:52:09 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:57:33 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-135-197-102.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:01:35 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:02:31 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has joined #lisp 11:02:41 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-izbjebvkhyccprbh] has joined #lisp 11:06:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:07:52 -!- Gooder [~user@82.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:29 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 11:15:20 alch___ [~michael@em117-55-68-27.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 11:15:42 -!- davazp [~user@213.37.200.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:16:08 -!- agumonkey [~agu@52.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:18:21 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.213.64.152] has joined #lisp 11:21:21 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686620.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:22:01 right ... back to restarts, and unbound-variable ... 11:22:10 i can't make heads or tails out of the sbcl source code 11:22:46 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:34 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585130.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:24:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:26:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:27:32 x__ [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:41 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 11:28:07 svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:b55d:9e9d:6d4b:268a] has joined #lisp 11:28:12 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-156-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:15 -!- x__ [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:31 davazp [~user@213.37.200.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:02 x__ [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:52 -!- x__ [~x@pool-71-163-45-47.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31:38 -!- alch___ [~michael@em117-55-68-27.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:49 alch___ [~michael@66.55.141.84] has joined #lisp 11:33:31 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868f73.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 11:41:05 not as simple as i thought this would be ... 11:43:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:44:46 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:47:20 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868f73.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:38 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868f73.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:47:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:49:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:50:59 pnpuff_ [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:52:06 agumonkey [~agu@52.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:06 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:54:04 -!- pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 11:55:00 hmph... why doesn't use-value pop up a dialog to enter a value ... ditto for store-value in sldb 11:55:24 Nobody has made it do so yet. 11:55:35 oh 11:55:40 well... that expalins it! 11:55:43 :-) 11:56:08 and here i wanted to add a restart for symbol-value so one could do use-value/store-value ... 11:56:30 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:75e7:e6a5:5e79:3ae9] has joined #lisp 11:57:40 Point 7a in PRINCIPLES may apply. 11:58:48 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 11:59:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 11:59:05 what is PRINCIPLES? 12:00:13 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:03 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:03 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:38 A file in the top-level source tree of SBCL. 12:02:03 It explains a bit about why SBCL is the way it is. 12:02:08 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:02:12 ah 12:02:50 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868f73.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:23 well, i do like restarts.. 12:03:42 and not having a restart for unbound variables is to me .. a suprise. 12:03:45 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002eb3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:57 but it is easy to fix, though sldb doesn't handle that which is a pity ... 12:04:30 -!- y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 12:05:56 makes any kind of restart totally usless unless it is one without any arguments :( 12:06:34 I really want a pretty SLIME UI on the symbol conflict resolution mechanism. But I want someone else to make it for me. 12:07:05 http://xach.livejournal.com/96625.html -- 6 years and counting! 12:07:18 try a kickstarter :) 12:07:30 isn't there a power function? (pow x) == (* x x) 12:07:47 (expt x 2) 12:07:58 ah, thanks 12:08:04 Xach: ah, yeah! 12:08:07 that would be sweet... 12:08:20 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.213.64.152] has left #lisp 12:10:45 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:11:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 12:11:37 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 12:15:18 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:53 darn... was hoping that cmucl would be friendlier with slime .. 12:17:01 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:75e7:e6a5:5e79:3ae9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:35 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:16 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-145-3.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:21:42 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1223-72.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:23:37 a little piece of my died now... this should be so trivial :-/ 12:25:21 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:29:13 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:05 I've updated to SBCL 1.1.7 and M-x slime tells me that "The name "UIOP/PATHNAME" does not designate any package.". Does it sound familiar to someone? 12:33:36 Xach: wonder whom we could bribe to write this for us.. 12:34:03 daimrod: seems related to a manual upgrade to asdf 3? 12:34:18 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:19 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has left #lisp 12:34:35 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 12:34:54 hum sorry, did I miss something? 12:35:52 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.120.153.229] has joined #lisp 12:36:19 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:36:32 daimrod: are you loading asdf 3 somehow? 12:36:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@fanzine.igalia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:39:03 how can I check the asdf version loaded by (require 'asdf)? 12:39:40 (asdf:asdf-version) should return the version as a string 12:40:17 it says 2.26 12:44:51 xan_ [~xan@fanzine.igalia.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:39 weird, I've removed the latest swank archive in ~/quicklisp/dist/quicklisp/software/, then quickload it and now it works. 12:45:42 -!- rk[reboot] is now known as rk[fishing] 12:45:53 anyway, thanks Xach. 12:45:55 weird 12:47:01 -!- davazp [~user@213.37.200.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:09 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868f73.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Since everything which is good about a language can be implemented in another one natural selection made all good features of LISP into the other one such as python and as 14:09:27 such LISP and python are now exactly the same :-D 14:09:45 Hello, I stumbled upon this article http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Your-next-language-or-how-open-source-changed-programming-1858734.html 14:09:54 and basically I'm realizing that from the time that opensource is here there is no more sense to talk about different programming languages. Since everything which is good about a language can be implemented in another one natural selection made all good features of LISP into the other one such as python and as 14:09:54 such LISP and python are now exactly the same :-D 14:10:54 When you write "LISP", people here probably think you talk about 1950's Lisp or that you knew absolutely nothing about Lisp. 14:11:10 grlpx: can you naturally manipulate python code in python? 14:12:33 dlowe: no because they think it is a bad thing, like self modifying code in the old times 14:12:41 grlpx: opinions differ 14:12:49 so I think there's still a lot of room for variety 14:13:02 grlpx: manipulating code and self-modification are two separate things 14:13:34 youtube-dl is in Python and it updates through self modification (so needs root privileges) 14:13:53 so not so old times 14:13:59 grlpx: also, languages differ widely in their expressiveness. while it may be possible to implement any language in any other language, it does not automatically make all languages equivalent. 14:14:13 self modification don't needs root privileges if they're done at run time 14:14:16 k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-116.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:15:01 only if you don't mind updating each time you run your code instead of doing it once. 14:15:01 I find that the most thing that more self-modify themself are javascript web pages: and this is common code that everybody write now 14:15:12 but at school they teach you different 14:15:29 If you feel that way, why did you join the channel? To taunt us? 14:15:32 grlpx: this channel is about common lisp. 14:15:44 ok bye 14:15:56 grlpx: bye 14:17:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:19:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:19:33 sfa [~sfa@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 14:23:34 -!- gmcastil [~user@70-59-29-55.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:40 pierpa` [~user@host117-20-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:26:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:26:21 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 14:26:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 14:26:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:29:45 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 14:30:09 nug700 [~nug700@174-19-137-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:29 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 14:33:19 -!- pierpa` [~user@host117-20-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:34:36 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:34:54 Grizzly [~Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-240-232.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:35:26 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:36:22 nug700_ [~nug700@174-19-137-145.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:00 -!- fenton1 [~fenton@ppp-110-168-50-74.revip5.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 14:38:30 -!- Gr1zzly [~Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-240-232.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38:52 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-19-137-7.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41:17 splittist [d4cb4e8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.203.78.138] has joined #lisp 14:41:22 morning 14:42:01 morning 14:42:17 szkrabik [~szkrabik@178.180.65.219.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:44:33 josemanuel [~josemanue@179.236.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:45:26 xadd [~xxad@host-VLEP3x-158.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:45:27 -!- xadd [~xxad@host-VLEP3x-158.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:37 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:46:43 grlpx: maybe I do not know well but whith lisp you've the power of view and manipulate directly the abstract syntax trees. 14:47:38 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:51:33 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:51:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:53:43 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.120.153.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 14:54:21 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:54:48 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:36 p_nathan [~vlion@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 14:58:41 -!- p_nathan [~vlion@76.178.163.213] has left #lisp 15:03:14 d11wtq [~chris@u597201.xgsnu4.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:27 So, I'm in Tokyo for a Ruby conference and Matz (creator of Ruby) talked about the motivation behind his writing Ruby, and the influence other languages had on him. He holds a lot of love for Lisp and says he is "contaminated" by it. One feature of Ruby he says comes from Lisp, is Mixins. This confuses me. What do you think he means by that? Mixins seem like a very OO idea more than a functional one, or does CLOS have them, perhaps? 15:06:01 d11wtq: clos has them, and common lisp is not so much of an functional language 15:06:02 functional one? what does functional have to do with it? 15:06:02 d11wtq: OO and functional are orthogonal in the first place. 15:06:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.39] has joined #lisp 15:06:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.39] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:06:31 d11wtq: common lisp touts itself as being a multi-paradigm language, and clos is one of the more advanced object systems around. 15:06:33 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 15:07:30 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@179.236.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 15:07:44 Thanks, I guess I've always separated OO and functional into different categories of languages. Mixins in particular, in Ruby, provide a way for a sort of multiple inheritance. I guess he was refering to CLOS then :) 15:08:03 *I say "sort of" lightly. 15:08:15 Obviously mixins are a lot more than that. 15:08:23 d11wtq: mixin classes are just a usage style for multiple inheritance as supported by, say, clos. you can use a mixin style in C++, too. 15:08:23 *d11wtq* needs to learn CLOS 15:10:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:11:26 primenum [~primenum@c-71-231-57-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:12:21 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:15:47 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 15:17:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:18:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:20:52 -!- gavilan2 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[~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:02:40 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 16:04:12 -!- PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:06:29 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-63.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:49 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-203-12.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:09 clos is actually the biggest thing I like about CL 16:09:29 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:32 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u597201.xgsnu4.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:55 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 16:10:01 when I was learning it, I was mostly coming from python, and interested in "maybe I can get ad-hoc exploratory programming like in python, but don't have to rewrite into c++ for performance" 16:11:00 but CLOS usage creeped in, its amazing productivity multiplier 16:11:59 yes, clos like anything in CL is nice because you can apply it as necessary, and unlike C++ not have to shoehorn everything you do into something awkward 16:12:35 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:15:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:16:37 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:55 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 Artheist [~quassel@85-82-252-216-static.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 16:19:21 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 16:19:38 enymo [~user@67.137.177.90] has joined #lisp 16:20:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002eb3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:20 -!- Artheist [~quassel@85-82-252-216-static.colba.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:21:21 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@129.10.167.101] has joined #lisp 16:23:10 Artheist [~quassel@85-82-252-216-static.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:33 hmm does slime save the external format it used anywhere? 16:28:21 -!- Grizzly [~Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-240-232.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 16:28:40 Grizzly [~Grizzly@ABayonne-651-1-240-232.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 -!- pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:29:11 external format of what? 16:29:19 -!- Grizzly is now known as Gr1zzly 16:29:51 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.20.74] has joined #lisp 16:29:54 pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 of a connection. I'm trying to make (defun ressurect) from swank-snapshot to work, and it calls (stream (make-fd-stream fd nil)) 16:30:37 which now errors out.. the "fd" is the file descriptor of swank socket from the "exec'ing" image, that we are replacing 16:31:11 like when slime creates a connection, is the ":utf-8" it uses for external format stored in the connection structure? 16:31:32 it seems its just passed around and not stored, so I have no way to recover what it was it in the new image 16:31:45 slime uses '(unsigned-byte 8) element type, except for the dedicated repl stream 16:31:57 ah ok cool 16:32:25 i assume SBCL previously defaulted to '(unsigned-byte 8) on NIL external format, otherwise snapshot would have never worked anyway 16:32:40 -!- pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:27 d11wtq [~chris@u597201.xgsnu4.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:30 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.55.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:38:33 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u597201.xgsnu4.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:58 miql [~miql@ip68-98-19-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:24 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.64.6] has joined #lisp 16:42:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:43:32 bhyde [~bhyde@static-70-20-25-74.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:48:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.39] has joined #lisp 16:48:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.39] has quit [Changing host] 16:48:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:49:24 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:50:49 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:48 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:52:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:24 ok really weird, how do I make socket-stream out of a fd 16:53:48 because (make-fd-stream 6 '(unsigned-byte 8)) does not work, it wants external-format, not element-type 16:54:01 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-156-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:30 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:35 and using :default uses utf8 (I compare the IN/OUT functions in stream structure between *emacs-connection* socket, where they are "send/recv-8-bit" vs (make-fd-stream 6 :default), where they are utf8 16:54:47 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 16:55:02 why are you passing '(unsigned-byte 8) to external-format and not to element-type then? 16:56:55 -!- svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:b55d:9e9d:6d4b:268a] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:57:11 oh, this is because I'm calling swank-backend:make-fd-stream, not sb-sys one.. swank-backend only has external-format arg, and hardcoded :element-type of 'character 16:57:29 which blows 16:58:31 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 16:59:05 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-156-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:34 looks like I need (make-socket-io-stream), which is just (defun) and not an interface. Or add &optional element-type to make-fd-stream interface 16:59:42 since it looks like its only used from swank-snapshot anyway 16:59:53 why not just change make-fd-stream? 17:01:54 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:17 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 17:02:21 actually that makes sense. I'll just change implementation to external-format NIL -> 'unsigned byte, same flag make-socket-io-stream uses 17:02:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:02:49 no, that doesn't make sense 17:03:01 why not add keyword arguments external-format and element-type? 17:03:11 so you prefer me add &key to make-fd-stream? ok 17:03:19 imu96 [~imran@91.140.176.78] has joined #lisp 17:03:34 depends on whether you want an easy to understand code or note 17:04:55 -!- imu96 [~imran@91.140.176.78] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:17 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:49 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:07 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 17:09:13 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:26 imu96 [~imran@91.140.176.78] has joined #lisp 17:14:50 pierpa` [~user@host117-20-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 meh http://i.imgur.com/RORWT26.png 17:15:47 pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:16:50 apparently unknown symbol somewhere 17:16:50 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:27 -!- pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:17:32 Is there a way to tell if a given character is already a dispatch macro character? 17:17:47 d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:27 -!- sad0ur_ [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:48 sad0ur [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:19:31 pierpa [~user@host117-20-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:20:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:22:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 nahiluhmot: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set__1.htm#get-dispatch-macro-character 17:22:53 nahiluhmot: Yes, get-dispatch-macro-character will signal an error if the character isn't a dispatch macro character. 17:23:31 sykopomp: That tests if a char and subchar combination are macro characters, I'm looking for a function that just tests for the first. 17:23:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:44 currently, I'm just using get-macro-character 17:23:54 but I was wondering if there was a more precise way 17:24:12 get-macro-character will do that. 17:24:34 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_dis.htm#make-dispatch-macro-character can be used to make it a dispatch macro character when you haven't defined a sub-char yet. 17:25:38 right, and it raises an error when the char has already been defined. that's why i was wondering if i could test if a given character is already a dispatch macro character 17:25:57 sdemarre [~serge@133.83-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 17:26:24 you saw what nyef said, right? 17:26:34 -!- PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:03 you'll need to use something like IGNORE-ERRORS immediately wrapping the call, ofc. 17:27:33 yeah, I was just hoping for a `dispatch-macro-character-p`-like function that already exists. knowing this, it should be easy to write one 17:27:51 thanks for your help! 17:27:56 :) 17:28:49 nahiluhmot: just test if it's a macro character 17:29:02 ok, you're already 17:29:02 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 17:29:24 stassats: just checking if it's a macro character doesn't tell you if it's a -dispatch- macro char. 17:29:36 sykopomp: why would you want to test for that specifically? 17:29:58 why would you test if it's a macro character at all? 17:30:17 if you want to expand it 17:30:26 or avoid clobbering it 17:30:55 yeah 17:30:57 I agree it's weird :\ 17:31:20 it doesn't seem like something that's useful outside of manually interacting/inspecting your system. 17:31:21 so, if you want to do either of that, you don't need to know whether it's dispatching or not 17:32:16 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:14 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 17:34:16 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 17:34:50 sykopomp stassats: i am writing a macro that allowed for dispatch macro characters that are only available in the given body of said macro. if one were to define a dispatch macro, i wanted to make sure that the first character was already a macro character, making it one if it wasn't already 17:36:29 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 does that make sense? 17:37:53 Why not just create a separate readtable? 17:38:43 nahiluhmot: that won't work. By the time your macro is evaluated, you are operating on the previously read data structures, and it's too late to be trying macro characters 17:39:07 nyef: internally, the macro does copy the read table, and then reset it later. i just found myself wanting a syntax similar to this: (let-dispatch-macro-char ((#\. #\. (lambda ...))) ...) 17:39:08 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-203-12.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:10 Well, macro, or reader-macro? 17:39:54 well hurray http://i.imgur.com/xAWuBly.png 17:39:58 dlowe: the purpose of the macro is just to modify the read table, so that when you call read in the macro's body it will use the temporary read table 17:40:00 Hrm, yeah, unless the point is to use READ, then you're going to run into trouble with the difference between read-time and compile-time. 17:40:18 nahiluhmot: oh. got it. Have you looked at named-readtables? 17:40:35 hmm still have to add handling for this dedicated connection fd thing 17:41:23 dlowe: i have not, but that sounds like it might solve my problem 17:41:58 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:42:56 ... I should probably look at named-readtables at some point myself, there's been a time or two when I've been tempted to have some custom syntax... 17:44:41 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:54 wow. named-readtables are awesome and exactly what i needed 17:45:02 thanks! 17:46:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-31.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:47:45 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:49:06 -!- elliottcable is now known as ell 17:49:07 -!- PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:50:06 -!- ell is now known as ellie 17:55:27 -!- ellie is now known as elliottcable 17:58:07 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-162.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:24 kennyd [~kennyd@dh207-62-134.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:01:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:03:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:03:16 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:04:58 pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:07:29 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@dh207-62-134.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:10:25 kennyd [~kennyd@dh207-62-134.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:10:39 -!- elliottcable is now known as ELLIOTTCABLE 18:10:43 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1222-42.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:12:56 -!- imu96 [~imran@91.140.176.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:13:00 d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 imu96 [~imran@91.140.176.78] has joined #lisp 18:14:04 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.239.114.206] has joined #lisp 18:14:41 -!- imu96 [~imran@91.140.176.78] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:19 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:05 d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:21 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:37 arrdem [~reid@ip68-231-200-129.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:40 ELLIOTTCABLE: is your nick likely to stabilize? 18:20:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:21:15 this is a pretty interesting idea: https://t.co/dgz3EsAFXj 18:22:11 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:09 dlowe: Not that we don't trust you when you post a random, opaque link in the channel, but would you care to elaborate? 18:23:38 It is an ios clojure structure editor 18:23:38 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:09 it supports scheme too, but the concept could extend to any lisp 18:24:12 PuercoPop [~user@cpe-24-193-207-225.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:22 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lisping/id512138518?mt=8 18:24:24 better? :p 18:25:38 dlowe: I have this... found it pretty boring honestly 18:26:09 was hoping for something else I guess. It's impossible for me to really explore coding on the ipad I guess 18:27:01 maybe my son will love it someday though. he won't have a full cup of ideas on how to interact with text 18:27:04 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:48 hm. too bad. 18:28:10 d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.239.114.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:31:16 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u546087.xgsnu1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:29 zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 18:35:52 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@dh207-62-134.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:38:58 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 18:41:54 kennyd [~kennyd@dh207-62-134.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:42:43 josemanuel [~josemanue@179.236.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@static-70-20-25-74.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit 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[~bhyde@static-70-20-25-74.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 19:57:30 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 19:58:53  20:00:53 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.64.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:05 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.64.6] has joined #lisp 20:02:59 nope 20:03:04 not yet! 20:03:26 nug700_ [~nug700@184-98-125-24.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:31 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:15 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboq230.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:06:00 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-115-204.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:17 pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:08:25 davazp [~user@213.37.200.68.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboi145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has 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ZZZzzz] 20:41:40 antgreen [~green@207.112.103.16] has joined #lisp 20:41:55 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F146.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:42:13 Hey lispers, I'm implementing Common Lisp conditions and it's precipitated a bunch of changes in how I handle the stack and my built in debugger. 20:42:34 I've got a question about implementing LET and LET*. 20:42:36 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 20:43:03 translate it to lambda 20:43:25 Is that really the best way? 20:43:27 Do modern lisp implementations do that? 20:43:28 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:40 How about for flet/labels? 20:44:12 doesn't sbcl do that? 20:44:15 The issue is LET first evaluates all expressions and then binds them to symbols all at once. 20:44:16 drmeister: it's the same thing 20:44:36 so does a function call 20:44:39 And LET* binds evaluates an expression and then binds it to a symbol one at a time. 20:44:54 so does n lambdas 20:45:45 Right, so I'm not implementing it as N nested lambdas because that would generate a lot of activation frames and slow down access. 20:46:00 or you can use one lambda with &aux 20:46:15 stassats: How does that work? 20:46:25 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 20:46:29 activation frames? (funcall (lambda ...)) shouldn't have any frames 20:47:21 I should be able to optimize away a lot of activation frames but I don't do that yet. 20:47:44 *patrickwonders* is still stuck on why conditions triggered a need to rework LET and LET*. closures, sure but conditions? 20:47:53 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-215-44-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:48:38 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:49:02 patrickwonders: If an error is thrown in the middle of binding a series of LET* expressions then the LET* activation frame is only partially filled and the debugger needs to know that. 20:49:02 y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has joined #lisp 20:50:25 activation frames for let*? are you trying to write the slowest implementation ever? 20:50:25 Ah that I can see... 20:50:31 Thank you... 20:50:34 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:38 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:51:05 slyrus [~chatzilla@12.130.118.51] has joined #lisp 20:51:45 -!- bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:23 I'll come back some other time. 20:52:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:21 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:53:34 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-28-136.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:54:26 bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:58 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@129.10.167.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 20:57:39 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868f73.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:11 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 20:59:12 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to 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[Quit: Leaving] 21:21:21 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:22 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:28 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.143.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:09 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:11 hello, I have a question regarding tail recursion modulo cons 21:27:02 it's my understanding that a language implementing that would detect a "primitive" operation such as cons in the tail position and rewrite the function to use an accumulator 21:28:40 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:03 igorw: tco is not part of the common lisp standard, but most CL implementations do it (by default, I think?) 21:31:54 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:33:18 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:23 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:36:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-50-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:37:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-239-215.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 yeah, TCO in general is implemented by most 21:38:59 Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.143.82] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 xan_ [~xan@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:41 but "tail recursion modulo cons" is more advanced than that 21:41:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002eb3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:41:08 I believe it should be able to process something like this: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5681449 21:41:36 with inputs of any size, because it detects the "primitive" addition operation in tail position 21:42:34 my question would be: is my understanding of what TRMC is correct, and if so, are there any languages that implement it? 21:43:22 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:06 igorw: some compilers implement it... 21:45:46 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c3cbd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:46 seangrove [~user@70-36-139-165.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:11 anyway on the Haskell wiki it is named as "guarded recursion" 21:48:51 here's one resource I found: http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2002-November/006159.html it mentions some prolog compilers 21:52:33 -!- karswell [~user@87.112.161.139] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:52:41 As you have logical variables in prolog you can unify return var with [Head|NewTail] then do a tail recursive call to bind NewTail 21:52:42 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:11 igorw: you save stack but "pay" for it with a logical variable 21:54:02 igorw : that `sum' doesn't do TCMC 21:54:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:19 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:55:22 igorw: that means in prolog you can program it directly 21:55:34 igorw : afaiui, TCMC specifically refers making a partially initialized structure, and tail-calling with a reference pointing to where to fill in the rest 21:55:52 of course possible in functional languages but then the compiler has to detect and special case it 21:56:13 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-203-12.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:15 also it often doesn't gain you that much 21:56:22 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:57:08 for example http://www.erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/myths.html#id61519 21:57:15 igorw: maybe this is useful: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2009-March/058607.html 22:02:06 igorw : you might be interested in comparing with "Making Mercury Programs Tail Recursive" by Peter Ross,David Overton,Zoltan Somogyi in 1999-09 at , and also "State update transformation" by Peter Ross,Zoltan Somogyi at the same page 22:02:27 igorw : also, you could talk to LeoNerd (e.g. in #scheme) who implemented something like the `sum' thing you're talking about 22:02:28 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:42 thanks for all the links, this already helps quite a lot 22:04:52 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:06:13 pnpuff : guarded recursion is superficially related to TCMC 22:06:15 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:59 s/related/similar/ 22:07:33 looks like guarded recursion depends on lazy evaluation 22:07:45 (btw, note that the described optimizations in Mercury happens at compile-time, while LeoNerd's thing happens at run-time) 22:08:07 well, more specifically lazy (or delayed/suspended) constructors 22:08:12 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:18 you could do the same in Scheme with `delay' 22:08:43 (and probably in CL as well, but i don't know about that) 22:09:40 I did have something like source transformation in mind, so the mercury thing is probably closer to what I'm looking for 22:10:55 -!- Watcher7|off is now known as Watcher7 22:12:54 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:12:55 -!- Artheist [~quassel@85-82-252-216-static.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:49 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:19 (see "SRFI 45: Primitives for Expressing Iterative Lazy Algorithms" by André van Tonder in 2004 and "How to add laziness to a strict language, without even being odd" by Philip Wadler,Walid Taha,David MacQueen in 1998-09 at .. also Chris Okasaki's book "Purely Functional Data Structures" mentions this (lazy algorithms and 22:14:47 (er, suspected cut off near ".. also Chris Okasaki's book \"Purely Functional Data Structures\" mentions this (lazy algorithms and datastructures in a strict language))") 22:15:45 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 22:16:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:06 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 22:16:15 igorw : btw, in case you didn't know, Mercury is a logic programming language; if you know some Prolog, it will probably help understanding it 22:16:53 antgreen_ [~green@207.112.103.16] has joined #lisp 22:17:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-63.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host 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ZZZzzz] 22:23:40 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-229-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:26:11 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:24 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:27:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:27:47 ski: that's in fact why I avoided the paper at first, because my prolog-fu is weak 22:28:42 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-203-12.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:02 okasaki is somewhere on my to-read list 22:29:22 bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-203-12.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:30 -!- d11wtq [~chris@u508171.xgsnug1.imtp.tachikawa.mopera.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:01 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:32:23 paddymahoney [~patrick@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:21 -!- vhost-_ [vhost-@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:a667] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:28 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:31 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:34:09 igorw : mostly what's interesting here is that some predicate arguments can be input and some output (and, unlike Pascal,Ada, the same predicate can sometimes be called with an argument as input, and sometimes as output -- we say we call the predicate in different modes -- the Mercury implementation calls these procedures) 22:34:52 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:00 ski: anyway I mentioned guarded recursion even as an example of lazy evalutation.... and foldl for eample have the recursive call as a non-strict field in a constructor. Anyway , sure, I do not know still well the topic.... 22:35:01 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 22:35:22 milosn [~milosn@user-5af506d1.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:56 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 22:36:29 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:33 ski: is that what unification does? 22:36:47 not directly 22:37:02 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af5019f.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37:17 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 22:37:55 unification is to (bidirectionally) match two (possibly partially specified) structures 22:38:39 when you call a predicate, (conceptually) the actual parameter in the call is unified with the formal parameter in the definition, yes 22:38:58 pnpuff : not sure what you mean "have the recursive call as a non-strict field in a constructor" 22:40:21 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:37 -!- DrForr__ [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:40:48 pnpuff : anyway, the similarity between TCMC and guarded recursion is that in both cases, the recursive call happens after the wrapping constructor -- but they do this in completely different ways 22:41:45 DrForr_ [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:55 pnpuff : in TCMC, a reference to the uninitialized field is passed to the recursive call just after; while in guarded recursion, the recursive call is delayed until such time the field is forced 22:43:40 igorw : anyway, Mercury compiles unification down to construction and deconstruction (and the occasional user-defined equality checks) 22:44:23 vhost-_ [~vhost-@li540-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:21 -!- antgreen_ [~green@207.112.103.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:46:43 Hey all, I'm following along Marco Baringer's slime tutorial, and he seems to be enjoying the ability for a matching paren to be generated every time he types an open paren, and also allows him to encapsulate the sexp proceeding his cursor. what is that and how do I get it? 22:47:06 paredit I think 22:47:35 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:47:35 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:48:01 is that a mode, and do I have to install it or is it built in? 22:48:08 ,paredit 22:48:14 hm 22:48:15 jangle: that's a standard emacs command M-( 22:48:35 paredit is, like, Riastradh's Emacs minor mode for editing balanced parens: #paredit, , see also 22:48:48 (sorry, had my channels crossed) 22:49:48 emacs has always been able to program lisp 22:50:32 skalawag [~waglin@li206-225.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:32 (in addition to what rvirding said, also stuff like `M-)',`C-M-f' and some other commands starting with `C-M-') 22:50:43 rvirding: i see, thanks 22:50:55 karswell [~user@87.112.161.139] has joined #lisp 22:51:04 ski: is that last command an accent grave or an apostrophe 22:51:20 neither 22:51:41 (read "starting with" again) 22:51:48 derp 22:52:22 (you do know how to look up those other commands, right ?) 22:52:33 so does paredit enable M-( or is there more functionality to be gained by fetching and installing paredit 22:52:54 yea I do, I"m pretty sure its C-h k 22:53:36 -!- pnpuff [~LaGrange@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:53:38 M-( is always there, I don't about paredit 22:53:45 well, with `C-h b' you get a list of bindings, which you can search for `C-M-' by `C-s' e.g. 22:54:00 jangle : see for paredit functionality ? 22:54:06 BZaidan [~GreenLant@41.254.1.182] has joined #lisp 22:54:11 good afternoon 22:54:38 I am having an issue with gcl, maybe someone is able to help. 22:55:05 (compiler::link "file.o" "file") returns a segmentation fault. any ideas? 22:55:35 thanks all 22:55:51 (jangle : since `C-h k' (and `C-h c') only tells you about a command if you already know (or have guessed) its chord -- `C-h m' may also be useful to get a description of the mode in the currently focused buffer) 22:56:15 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 22:56:36 (.. and `C-h w' for asking Emacs which chord (if any) is (currently) bound to a known named command) 22:57:14 anyone? 22:57:35 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af5072d.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:39 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-203-12.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:31 ski: cheers, appreciate it 22:59:41 -!- bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:59:45 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af506d1.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:00:15 bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@12.130.118.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:01:00 antgreen [~green@207.112.103.16] has joined #lisp 23:01:55 BZaidan, try to use gdb to see what happend 23:01:58 igorw : if you have more questions, you could always come by ##prolog ior #mercury .. 23:02:33 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:09 rszeno: gdb on gcl, the segmentation fault occurs during compilation, and the only files generated are a .o file and a .c 23:03:21 *gdb on gcl? 23:04:06 you can launch gcl from gdb, then run the code as normal 23:04:21 i will, thanks rszeno 23:04:41 when it give seg fault look to the stack 23:04:58 ok. 23:05:00 will give some information 23:05:28 welcome, :) 23:05:35 thx. :D 23:06:51 well, this is interesting.. 23:07:51 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:09:35 it seems that /usr/bin/gcl is a shell script, not an executable. 23:09:41 time to find the exec. 23:10:04 is in the script somewhere 23:10:12 yeah. 23:12:35 anyway, thx rszeno. I will attempt to use clisp. 23:12:40 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E6F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:13:56 -!- BZaidan [~GreenLant@41.254.1.182] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:21:40 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.122.76] has joined #lisp 23:21:46 -!- bitonic [~user@97e105e8.skybroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:12 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 23:26:26 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 23:29:01 brendal [~user@cpe-107-9-36-17.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:36 y5h [~textual@116.36.42.92] has joined #lisp 23:31:41 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:11 wakeup [~user@xdsl-89-0-188-74.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:36:21 Hi 23:36:41 does anyone have any experience on using ASDF as a make replacement? 23:36:49 is it feasible? 23:38:01 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.170.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:39:14 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-184-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:41:32 -!- enymo [~user@67.137.177.90] has left #lisp 23:43:42 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboq230.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:43:56 e.g. not for loading lisp files but for running arbitrary code (like 23:43:56 tests, documentation building etc) 23:46:29 -!- killsto [~killian@ip70-179-169-110.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 23:52:55 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:56:19 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:33 wakeup` [~user@xdsl-89-0-65-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp