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[~k0001@host121.186-125-147.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:52:04 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-27-7.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:57:15 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-140.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 02:07:59 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:13 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:08 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 02:09:40 is there a way to give "case" a test clause 02:09:52 -!- jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@c-75-73-84-128.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10:02 or is it a similar form of case that you can specify the test clause of 02:10:43 cond? 02:11:11 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.105.31] has joined #lisp 02:11:27 chenqisu [~Thunderbi@113.91.79.238] has joined #lisp 02:11:42 but you need to specify the test clause for every case in cond 02:12:56 oh, i see what you mean. no, case doesn't have that. i think there might be such a macro in alexandria, and there's string-case in quicklisp for when the test function is string= 02:12:57 I am wondering if there is a case variation that I can say instead of equal, use #'sdl:key= as your test function 02:13:18 ah, alexandria, got it :) 02:13:21 thanks :) 02:14:19 jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@c-75-73-84-128.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:51 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:24 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:24:27 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.21.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:28:09 -!- ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:31:15 lanthan [~quassel@dslb-088-075-229-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:11 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:38:44 -!- chenqisu [~Thunderbi@113.91.79.238] has quit [Quit: chenqisu] 02:40:25 tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-118.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:52 I'm having a bit of a brain-fart here. Say I would like to define a series of functions *N for 1 <= N <= 10, such that (defun *N (num) (* num N)). How would I do that in a loop? :\ 02:45:15 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:03 If I do (DEFMACRO DEFINE-MULTIPLIER (N) `(DEFUN *,N (NUM) (* NUM ,N))), I cannot then call that within (DOTIMES (N 10) (DEFINE-MULTIPLIER N)), since the macro would get the actual symbol N, not the value of N. 02:46:19 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:53:24 You could write a macro to do it. 02:53:58 Oh! A macro that expands to 10 DEFUNs... Thanks! 02:54:12 Welcome. 02:55:44 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-14.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:56:31 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-119-26.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:35 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:58:29 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 02:58:36 rking1 [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 03:07:16 -!- lanthan [~quassel@dslb-088-075-229-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:39 lanthan [~quassel@dslb-088-075-229-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:45 alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-190.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 03:11:49 whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:28 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:18:25 chenqisu [~Thunderbi@113.91.79.238] has joined #lisp 03:18:30 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-190.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 03:19:22 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has 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zRecursive [~czsq888@171.88.18.86] has joined #lisp 05:32:02 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:37:01 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:00 tigranes why not write a higher order function? that takes a multiplier and returns a function 05:38:43 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.105.31] has joined #lisp 05:40:56 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 05:42:06 (curry '* 10) is another option (from alexandria package) 05:50:26 gmcastil [~user@168-103-209-29.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:33 -!- pawel` [~user@c-68-63-164-229.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:52:48 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:53 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:55:37 mrSpec [~Spec@77-253-11-162.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 05:55:37 -!- mrSpec 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[~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:15 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has joined #lisp 08:12:37 -!- sablib [~sabayonus@119.98.62.32] has left #lisp 08:13:06 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:15:13 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:10 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:13 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:19:32 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.22.40] has joined #lisp 08:19:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:21:35 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 08:26:13 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@159.49-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 08:27:08 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:29:29 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:34:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:34:04 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:39:21 can anyone explain what this does?: (intern (string c) '#.*package*) 08:39:44 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:59 i'm confused by the quoted-sharpsign-dot before *package* 08:40:51 <|3b|> #. evaluates *package* at read time, then ` QUOTEs the result as usual 08:40:58 <|3b|> sorry, ' not ` 08:41:12 <|3b|> (though ` would do the same) 08:41:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.249] has joined #lisp 08:41:52 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:08 *|3b|* would expect packages to be self-evaluating though, so not sure if there is any point to having the ' there 08:43:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-225-220.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:45:02 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-223-234.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:18 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:45:31 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-5-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:48:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:44 maxter_ [5d492fa5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.73.47.165] has joined #lisp 08:49:14 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host106.190-137-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:53:24 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:54:03 munge`` [~user@ip72-209-237-151.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:55:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:55:54 -!- munge` 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ZZZzzz] 09:03:09 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e177233201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:16 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:07:44 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:10:49 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:19:30 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:57 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:11 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.95.209] has joined #lisp 09:27:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:28:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:35:28 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:37:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:15 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 09:46:52 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 09:46:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 09:46:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:50:18 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:56:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:57:42 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:01:31 be careful young lady. literal *package* is not guaranteed to exists at load time 10:01:44 you need another literal object that references it in FASL to pull it in 10:01:49 davazp [~user@92.251.233.167.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 10:02:45 huh? 10:03:48 that is literal # is stored in .fasl file as (find-package "WHATEVER") and will error out on loading .fasl if its not defined. 99% of cases it works, because there is (in-package) in front of the file, and package was already defined in earlier .fasl 10:04:08 no 10:04:15 literal packages are perfectly defined 10:04:20 hmm i checked it and it was indeed the case 10:04:23 the only constraint that the package has to exist 10:04:31 yes it has to exits 10:04:49 and what you're saying is not about its existence 10:05:35 meh semantics.. thats what i meant :-) that storing literal reference to package you need to make sure it exists. 10:06:15 well, that's stretching semantics too far 10:07:25 and if you find it hard to formulate, you can just quote clhs "although a package object is an externalizable object, the programmer is responsible for ensuring that the corresponding package is already in existence when code referencing it as a literal object is loaded." 10:07:56 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 10:08:37 *maxm* fully admits he may be dumber then a 3rd grader. Once you admit that attitude, you can only be positively surprised about accomplishing anything 10:08:55 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:08 that's a strange choice of attitude 10:09:16 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-47-196.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:10:05 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@99-136-83-34.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:56 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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12:07:34 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:09:31 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 12:09:51 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.105.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:10:13 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 12:17:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:18:02 ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:19:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:20:56 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:00 Are there any truly immutable (single-assignment) Lisps out there? Coming from Erlang and Haskell, one thing that strikes me about Lisp is its surprising dependence on mutability. /just-curious 12:21:24 there's no dependency on mutability 12:22:00 stassats: Well, what I mean is the abundance of it in Lisp. People don't seem to avoid it. 12:22:19 Things like hash-tables for example are mutable 12:22:23 yes, because people don't seem to think that it's bad 12:22:38 While in Erlang you'd get copies of the dictionary 12:22:49 Yeah, that's what I was wondering :) 12:22:50 people often want things to be fast 12:22:57 So it's just a different mindset 12:23:30 Well the irony is that Erlang can be fast AND immutable because it can share memory, knowing it won't be changed 12:23:41 echo-area [~user@114.254.107.206] has joined #lisp 12:23:48 So what looks like copying in the code is actually very optmized in the VM 12:26:01 some want things to be so fast, they're willing to use C 12:26:47 stassats: true in many languages. I drop to C for things in interpreted languages (Ruby). 12:28:33 breakds [~breakds@adsl-71-150-253-174.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:04 the fact that ruby is real slow doesn't help here 12:33:28 yeah that's true, it's painful at times. Shame a nice language can have that huge wart. 12:43:32 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 12:44:31 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:35 talas [~talas@unaffiliated/talas] has joined #lisp 12:48:21 alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-142.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 12:53:30 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:59:52 d11wtq: you could always make a lisp-like language that fits what you're looking for. with an optimizing compiler you could do things like dropping hash tables altogether and only using alists, etc. 13:02:31 alch____ [~michael@EM117-55-68-145.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 13:03:57 you'd probably want to make it based on Scheme and not Common Lisp, though. 13:04:31 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-142.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:04:32 -!- alch____ is now known as alch___ 13:05:37 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-113-249.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:06:43 teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.245] has joined #lisp 13:07:38 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:07:59 d11wtq: Scheme's style is more in line with functional programming than Common Lisp afaik (Common Lisp is multi-paradigm, and includes a large object oriented system called CLOS). of course, I am nowhere near an expert in either. 13:09:14 fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-5-7.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:09:38 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-5-7.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:05 scheme's older revisions even lack user-defined data types 13:10:11 IMO they're not worth the effort 13:10:17 fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-5-7.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:11:02 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-5-7.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:28 fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-5-7.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:15:39 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:17:44 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-115-87-5-7.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 13:20:52 d11wtq: actually, Scheme's probably what you're looking for because it doesn't even have hash tables in its standard (although implementations add them). so I guess you'd *have* to use alists. Scheme's talked about in #scheme though because #lisp is for Common Lisp. Scheme even makes "mutation procedures" (i.e. the stuff you don't like) clear by always ending them with ! 13:22:17 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 13:23:38 _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:38 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:23:38 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 13:24:04 whatever the language, writing high performance and high quality implementations is not trivial 13:24:21 dlowe, racket is maybe what you want since they eschew mutation but maintain a lisp feel 13:24:22 it's easier to add whatever datastructures you have to an existing one 13:24:31 oops, d11wtq ** 13:25:12 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:26:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26:43 banjiewen [banjiewen@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-dfcfdkfpozowmowj] has joined #lisp 13:28:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:28:24 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 stassats: right, but Racket has building languages as a built-in feature. I'm going to guess building a Scheme-like language in an existing Scheme is easier than writing the entire thing from scratch. of course, it's not going to be any faster than the host Scheme, but it will save a lot of work. 13:35:51 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 13:38:35 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-145.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 13:41:37 in other words, forget what I said about a compiler. 13:42:17 d11wtq: yes, there is: (defpackage "IMMUTABLE-CL" (:use "CL") (:export "CONS" "CAR" "CDR" "LAMBDA" "COND" "NULL" "NIL")) 13:42:44 d11wtq: now: (defpackage "MY-IMMUTABLE-PROGRAM" (:use "IMMUTABLE-CL")) (in-package "MY-IMMUTABLE-PROGRAM") #| have fun! |# 13:42:58 pjb, ENDP ;P 13:43:23 weirdo: no, I didn't put LIST FIRST and REST there, so it's NULL, not ENDP. 13:44:03 copy 13:45:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:46:18 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:47:16 -!- galdor [galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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Is it possible to run two lisp instances at the same time, and then modify instance 2 with instance 1? 15:15:53 ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:50 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:17:55 what do you mean by "modify with", precisely? 15:18:19 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:35 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:01 I want to write a function which calculates something. Then I execute the function in one lisp instance. Now I want to connect the second instance to the first instance, rewrite the function and change the calculation. Now the result in instance 1 should be different 15:22:13 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:25 Is that possible? 15:23:00 sure, for example by using a swank server in instance 1 and connecting to that from instance 2 15:23:14 or is it possible to change functions at runtime at all? 15:23:15 similar to what slime does to get stuff evaluated in the lisp 15:24:12 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:23 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@99-136-83-34.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:25 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:10 H4ns, are there other implementations which do not need emacs? 15:26:25 Lis: swank does not need emacs 15:27:38 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:27:46 oh. great I look into that. And what about changing functions at runtime. Is that possible? 15:28:02 yes. 15:28:27 i guess you should start with getting a basic feel for lisp first. 15:30:56 -!- spratap [sharad@stumbled.upon.a.broken-pipe.info] has quit [Quit: BNC4FREE - http://bnc4free.com/] 15:32:05 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:00 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:10 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:40:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:42:06 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:42:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:43:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:27 Odyessus [~odyessus@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 15:44:58 -!- bitonic [~user@97e11561.skybroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:52 -!- eni 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has joined #lisp 16:53:16 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [] 16:56:13 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:44 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:57:29 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has joined #lisp 16:59:29 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:01:11 -!- Guest41938 [~lukas@194.228.13.188] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:01:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:03:27 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:06:02 which data structure would you recommend for a task of storing a cons/pair of A and B then retrieving it with keys both A and B. this structure can either have say (cons A B) or (cons B A). If it is hash table, then is there any existing functions that could hash two objects, again with the requirement (hash A B) <=> (hash B A) *cheers 17:06:42 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:06:42 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:37 rszeno [~rszeno@86.125.253.152] has joined #lisp 17:08:03 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-118.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:07 satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:22 tigranes [~tigranes@74.3.163.223] has joined #lisp 17:08:48 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [] 17:10:20 two hashtables or alist 17:10:34 what is A and B? 17:11:21 pnpuff [~morphine@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:11:30 A and B right now struct/class instances 17:12:07 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has joined #lisp 17:13:05 two hashtables? how would you use them? 17:13:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:34 -!- pnpuff [~morphine@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:13:52 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:53 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:44 xificurC [~xificurC@adsl-dyn183.78-99-137.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 17:15:53 -!- Myk268 [~myk@adsl-71-149-245-243.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 17:16:15 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 17:18:39 nan: it seems you want to canonicalize (a b) and (b a) into the same object.. one way would be to define an ordering 17:18:55 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-76.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:46 adeht: assigning them ids? 17:26:04 I don't like using IDs when they're not necessary.. another way to deal with it that may fit is to try the lookup for one alternative and if it fails try the other 17:26:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:27:32 if A and B are guaranteed to present a one-to-one mapping, then you can use just one hashtable 17:27:37 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-76.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:05 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-122-228.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:29:43 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:05 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:30:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:31:05 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:27 there can be (A B) (A C) (B C) so no. i think having IDs and generating hash of the two seems best approach since i couldn't find a way to hash 2 instances :) 17:32:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:32:14 if there can be (A B) and (A C), how would that work? for the key A? 17:32:38 key is not A, key is A and B 17:33:15 I suspect one of us misunderstood the other 17:33:16 ok, then one hashtable should do 17:33:53 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:34:05 (setf (gethash (cons A B) hashtable) (setf (gethash (cons B A) hashtable) value)) 17:34:22 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:35:19 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-76.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:05 oh at the time you are storing, you store both and they actually point the same thing? heh sounds great 17:36:40 if you can establish an order on a and b you could just assure that they're in the right order before looking up the cons, maybe save some space 17:36:58 Bike: that's what adeht suggested 17:37:22 nan-: what are you trying to map with this? 17:37:24 derrida: hows the game coming? 17:37:35 which means i need some kind of ID as i have no idea how can i compare two instances other than equality with eq 17:38:10 < on sxhash, maybe 17:38:12 you can compare their sxhash, but that trades time for space 17:38:34 do you need fast lookups? 17:38:35 stassats: you mean the real problem i am trying to solve? 17:38:40 Bike yes 17:38:44 nan-: yes 17:38:45 that is the most important 17:38:57 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.1] has joined #lisp 17:39:16 i wished i could just make aliases for some commands (or abbrevs) like ,cd for ,Change Directory blah in the listener for mcclim 17:39:22 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:22 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest1764 17:39:23 meh 17:39:32 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:24 stassats: i have shapes and need to pair them for contact determination. so the pair of shape A and B points the pair B and A 17:41:12 Bike fast lookups is what i am after yes 17:41:33 can't you just link them directly without using hashtables? 17:42:33 stassats: how could i do that? say i got 1000 shapes 17:42:54 and what do you want to do with them? 17:43:12 maybe you want some kind of a spatial tree? 17:43:22 stassats: this is a physics engine and a body can have contacts with many objects 17:44:01 it can have a slot NEIGHBOURING-BODIES 17:44:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:44:28 nan: an ordering could say: circles < triangles < rects.. and within circles, lexicographical sort by origin, radius.. etc. 17:46:10 stassats: that is a dead end i think because when A have neighbour B, B also have A, that would complicate the problem and i can't think of mcuh gain 17:46:25 adeht: that sounds nice actually 17:47:00 complicate the problem? 17:47:11 kennyd [~kennyd@199-255-210-12.anchorfree.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:24 how is it not equivalent to your hashtables, except without hashes? 17:48:01 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:24 nan: if you need to make it extensible and don't care about the actual order, you could use string-lessp of class-name perhaps for ordering shape types 17:48:28 -!- Guest1764 [~lukas@194.228.13.1] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:49:02 (or string<, really) 17:50:32 stassats: need to think about it hmmm 17:51:23 adeht: now i think about it i have same-class same-attrib shapes all over, ordering that way wouldn't work 17:51:42 -!- knob5312 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:52:01 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@199-255-210-12.anchorfree.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:52:01 what kind of lookup operations are you going to do? 17:52:17 knob5312 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:11 kennyd [~kennyd@199-255-210-17.anchorfree.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 stassats: (get-pair a b table) (get-pair b a table) should return same thing, that is all there is to it 17:54:07 that can't be the end goal, can it? 17:54:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:43 i don't understand how the end goal is relevant, what you mean (also i think i told you my end goal just to get the pair of two objects :)? 17:57:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:57:06 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:07 because it's quite possible you can accomplish your real goal without this pair mechanism 17:57:27 and this pair mechanism may not be the best way to do what you want 17:57:32 because you're presenting us with a solution you came up with trying to improve it 17:57:39 we can't improve without knowing what it does 17:58:29 -!- knob5312 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:58:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:59:59 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:00:35 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:40 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@199-255-210-17.anchorfree.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:00:58 alaa [~user@92.96.49.185] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 -!- knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:03:29 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:30 thinking thinking but i can't find a way to rephrase "i have tons of objects and i want to store information of any combination of two objects. A B equals B A" :) 18:04:48 why do you want to store that kind of information 18:04:49 ? 18:05:06 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 davazp [~user@92.251.233.167.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 18:06:52 are you doing collision detection, or something similar? 18:07:00 is it also secret and you can't tell anyone? 18:07:06 think about an apple on a table, table counters the gravity and apple can't penetrate the table, i need to store this relationship, a well known tech used in physics engines 18:07:10 yeh 18:07:41 heh it is no secret 18:08:49 why not just create a set of contact point objects as output from the collision detection 18:09:47 and flag each object after finishing its narrow phase so you d ont get AB vs BA issues 18:10:28 erikc: you need more details as which 2 objects this contact belongs to calculate the final force/velocity 18:11:27 and also you need to store these because you can't do these tests eevery frame 18:11:36 can the contact point reference the two intersecting rigid bodies? 18:11:59 run the collision engine on a different frequency from the renderering 18:12:50 i am sure there's a plenty of literature on physics engine 18:12:56 s 18:13:07 make 2 hash tables, (defvar *hash1* (make-hash-table :test #'eq)), and *hash2* also 18:13:13 http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/ 18:13:24 great book 18:14:13 then make lookup function look up (with object a as key) in table1, if success, thats your return pair 18:14:54 erikc: are you sure my question related to being a newbie on that area? :) 18:14:54 actually no 18:15:13 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has joined #lisp 18:15:24 *maxm* got confused.. but basically you just check both A and B and B & A.. And when not found ,store both 18:15:39 maxm: i heard that somewhere already 18:16:01 i asked this question because i was after an elegant answer as cons/pair mechanism is at the hearth of lisp :) 18:16:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:21 nan-: it's not at the heard, in reality 18:17:06 stassats: i mean there is an entire chapter in hyperspec on cons based structures/algorithms 18:17:32 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:17:42 don't think elegent thing exists here, but if it does, would be interesting to see 18:17:48 imho you'll just reimplement hash table 18:18:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:19:34 nan-: there's 20 chapters of other things 18:20:18 the chapter on cons is one of thinnest ones 18:20:42 stassats: i didn't say it is a bad thing or anything 18:20:53 well, other idea I have is give object numeric ids, define the limit of how many objects you can have, then or 2 ids togother 18:21:04 then you have unique integer identifying any 2 objects 18:21:32 nan-: no, it's just a misleading thing 18:21:45 (defvar *id-counter* 0), in shared-initialize for root of your shape hierarchy, (with-slots (id) (setf id (incf *id-counter*))) 18:22:36 maxm: all of your suggestion were already being suggested earlier 18:22:41 maxm: yes IDs have a solution, i was trying to get away but seems the sanest approach 18:22:52 then (defun pair-key (a b) (let ((k1 (id-of a)) (k2 ((id-of b)))) (if (> a b) (logior (ash a 20) b)))) 18:22:52 etc 18:22:54 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:23:13 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:23:36 performance wise it will be fastest anyway 18:23:55 and if you run out of id space, use (cons id-1 id-2), OR'ing them is just performance hack 18:24:00 or use bignums 18:24:45 stassats: yea well, its faster for me to type them, and wait for you to say they were suggested earlier, then to read 4 pages of scrollback :-) 18:24:56 hehee 18:25:32 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:26:59 -!- dmiles_afk is now known as dmiles 18:28:17 aka the pjb-approach 18:29:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-76.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 18:30:08 nan-: and i thought you were after the fastest approach, not "sanest" 18:30:33 a local slot of neighbouring objects will be faster 18:30:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:30:39 -!- knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:52 the place it will be used, sanest points the fastest :P 18:31:30 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 stassats: i will be thinking about that as i couldn't make sense yet 18:31:35 sanest points the fastest? what does that mean? 18:31:42 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:43 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 well what about dumb solution of giving each object a list? 18:32:16 maxm: oh come on! 18:32:32 sorry i meant "considering the place this structure will be used, sanest means fastest" 18:32:52 well it actually may be faster if number of colliding objects is small, and you have to process all of them on each step anyway 18:33:34 maxm: that's what was already suggested and what i was talking about just now 18:33:36 or give each object its own hash, which contains every object in touch with it. hash can be lazily created 18:33:43 maxm: it is not the number of colliding objects, it is the number of objects in contact, this means they may or may not stay in contact indefinitaly 18:33:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has joined #lisp 18:34:48 k0001 [~k0001@host73.186-125-106.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:35:34 nan-: and how is the hasthable approach removed from this aspect? it provides basically the same, but by using a hash, instead of a memory address 18:35:45 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:36:05 imho just implement your algo in the dumbest possible way 18:36:11 then start optimizing 18:36:22 stassats: hastable feels better because it localizes the solution 18:36:33 *maxm* had never ever written a beatiful thing from scratch. Always had "doh!" moments after a few iterations 18:36:43 localizes in what sense? 18:37:01 maxm: this is not optimization. i just want to know really :) 18:37:02 a big hashtable will have poorer memory locality 18:38:03 local in a sense that the part that does this thing don't need to intrude the definition of the body struct/class 18:38:30 knob5312 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:48 doomlord__ [~servitor@host86-135-20-35.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:13 have you tried any of the approaches? 18:39:44 another reason, think about just 10 objects neighbouring, that means 10x10 :) 18:39:49 -!- knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:40:37 and a hashtable will have how much pairs? 18:40:37 -!- doomlord___ [~servitor@host86-166-20-249.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:41:34 stassats: i have pairs right now and i call find-if with (or (and (eq oa a) (eq ob b)) (and (eq oa b) (eq ob a))) and i was using ID hash before that 18:42:29 a hash table in that condition would have 0 to 100 pairs i don't know 18:42:35 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 18:42:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 18:42:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:43:02 well it will be far less sorry 18:43:02 i don't really know what your objection about 10x10 is directed towards 18:43:42 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:44:41 ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-66-36-137-99.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 18:44:51 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-66-36-137-99.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 18:44:52 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 18:46:14 if 10 objects are mutual neighbours, then each slot of neighbours will have a list of 9 elements, n^2-n in total, a hashtable of pairs will have the same number 18:46:18 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host73.186-125-106.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:31 heh same goes for me as i don't understand how do you suggest that at all, guess we have a communication problem which quite possibly my fault! 18:47:10 AeroNotix [~xeno@abog223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:47:18 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 18:47:21 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.233.167.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:47:29 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:47:44 a hash table of contacts will have only the contacts, not neighbours, that would mean at best too little, at worst, still less than neighbouring 18:48:06 what's the difference between contacts and neighbouring? 18:48:12 neighbours 18:48:39 contact is touching, neighbouring relates to proximity no? 18:48:52 as you use another term insteead of contact 18:49:13 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 18:49:18 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:27 well, you want the ones which touch, why would i suggest you to use a completely different criteria? 18:49:32 you can have no contact with tons of neighbours but not the opposite 18:50:25 i am not sure, i thought you would use the term contact if you meant that :) 18:50:26 then name the slot touching-objects, if it makes it clearer 18:51:14 p_nathan [~vlion@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 18:51:42 well, when they say "neighbour countries" it means countries which share a border 18:51:53 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 18:53:26 with touching we now reduced our discussion just to locality, now finally talking about the same thing! isn't it grand? :) 18:53:51 even though there can be ambiguity, i would have thought that it'd be clear what's meant by neighbouring 18:53:53 oh well 18:54:08 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-76.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 neighbouring rings the bell *proximity* when i hear it sorry << 18:54:40 k0001 [~k0001@host73.186-125-106.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:55:14 and contact rings the bell "that scifi movie about aliens" 18:55:50 don't go offtopic or i'll link bladerunner pictures all over 18:56:46 so, you have a list of suggested approaches, why don't you try them and see which one fits the bill? 18:57:34 sorting, double hashing, a local slot 18:59:15 i'll sure try those that i haven't but this was mostly about curiousity as i said rather than a bottleneck (it will be when i feed it with absurd amount of objects) 19:01:10 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.249] has joined #lisp 19:01:58 vhost- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:58 -!- vhost- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:01:58 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 19:04:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:06:24 nan-: what kind of nD physics engine are you using to perform your experimentations? anyway takje a look at http://www.draknek.org/physics/wgd-talk.pdf 19:07:09 :) and enjoy to write one in lisp if you are able... (: 19:07:19 that would be nice. 19:09:19 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64445.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:09:34 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 19:11:54 pnpuff: i am using my own as CD and all things geometry is my area of interest. and physics engines used in games are too generic for the application i am after 19:12:40 Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:12:45 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:12:53 -!- Quadresce_ is now known as Quadrescence 19:13:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:51 kennyd [kennyd@93-138-32-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 nan-: what are you trying to do? If you want explain me better... 19:16:02 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:16:08 Trenif [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:16:37 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:37 ...a collision is a collision as in a game as in the real life. :) 19:16:57 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:22 pnpuff: wish it would be like that, dive in the collision detection your life become hell :) 19:17:34 Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.27.59] has joined #lisp 19:19:02 bitonic [~user@151.225.63.243] has joined #lisp 19:19:15 pnpuff: small games with high quality physics, i wrote one in 10 years ago but it was too specific and now i am trying to find a middle ground too general game physics engines and my own too specific 19:20:07 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:21:14 nyef [~nyef@ip-64-134-65-74.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:20 nan-: your problem is "too specific" 19:21:26 :) 19:22:51 ..and my answer a low quality answer.. 19:22:56 -!- alaa [~user@92.96.49.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:10 pnpuff: sorry if it sounded like one of those labels "high quality" "OO" ... 19:25:01 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@86.125.253.152] has left #lisp 19:25:05 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:10 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:27:26 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:41 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29:50 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:42 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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[~Nosceteip@c192252.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:25:05 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:05 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:21 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:59 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@c192252.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:53 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:29:58 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:30:30 i simply love this trick #+(or) (progn ...)! 20:34:21 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:36:10 nan-, #+#:ignore 20:37:02 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:07 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.254.141] has joined #lisp 20:38:27 Quadrescence: stassats suggested #+(or) i like this better than the others #+#ignore uglier! 20:39:01 nan-, #+#:buggy 20:39:16 #+#:useful-message-about-why-this-code-is-here-but-commented-out 20:40:10 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has joined #lisp 20:40:12 that assumes i can write better comments than the code itself :) 20:42:32 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:42:49 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:49 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:47:20 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E9598.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:13 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:51:26 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.249] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 -!- 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Leaving.] 21:38:17 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 21:38:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:56 rszeno [~rszeno@79.118.12.203] has joined #lisp 21:39:15 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:45 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:43:39 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.254.141] has left #lisp 21:43:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0038ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:44:30 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:57 -!- solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:36 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 21:47:47 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:48:24 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:12 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:50:53 messrs [~cmsimon@50.126.98.237] has joined #lisp 21:56:13 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:20 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 21:57:33 hi 21:58:44 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:10 -!- messrs [~cmsimon@50.126.98.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:00:11 -!- youlysse` [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:00:22 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.118.12.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:00:43 messrs [~cmsimon@50.126.98.237] has joined #lisp 22:04:52 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.217.71.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:00 -!- messrs is now known as AnalRave 22:05:04 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:05:08 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:33 ejbs [~user@h-138-224.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 22:07:33 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@74.3.163.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:07:58 has anyone here run genera with this git repo? https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera 22:08:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:59 looks cool. no, not yet. 22:09:04 no. 22:09:30 Hm... Alright, I'm having some problems unfortunately. But oh 22:10:44 -!- ejbs [~user@h-138-224.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 22:14:56 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:13 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 22:22:55 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:46 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 22:24:20 some people say that Common Lisp doesn't have enough libraries, but whenever I ask which library is missing, they only compare the amount of libraries to Perl, Python or Ruby. It's difficult to work on something that is missing if sobody can answer what that is 22:25:21 it is cl-do-what-i-want-to-do 22:25:42 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:12 ASau [~user@p4FF963D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:00 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:58 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 22:32:51 CL problem is too many libraries, and unfinished libraries imho :-) 22:33:09 davazp [~user@92.251.217.71.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 22:33:17 maxm: which library is unfinished? Where can I contribute to it? 22:34:11 maxm: where do you see too many libraries ? 22:34:27 (defpackage #:json ...) 22:34:34 D: 22:34:34 well when I'm searching for a library for a specific thing, I usually have to check out like 4-5 of them before I find the most stable one 22:35:04 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75da17.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:11 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:35:12 example would be xml libraries I would say, cxml seems clear winner, but you won't know without testing yourself 22:36:00 cxml is the first google hit :) 22:36:10 Denommus: my dbus library is unfinished.. I stopped working on it when it satisfied my needs at the time.. you can work on it if you like :) 22:36:19 guess it got more popular since when I was selecting xml lib 22:36:46 adeht: yea, but honestly, do you judge next guy going to take it over, or check it out and write his own? 22:36:56 adeht: I think it would be good for me. I don't know anything about dbus, I could use it for learning 22:37:19 maxm: huh? 22:37:37 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:48 Denommus: https://github.com/death/dbus 22:38:13 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:40:20 adeht: I meant if someone else needs X library (like dbus one), in CL ecosystem, a chance of a person writing their own, seems to be higher then in lets say Perl or Python 22:40:42 writing their own, when one already exists, but does not have features they need 22:41:02 maxm: maybe.. I don't have data 22:41:58 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:42:54 actually library looks pretty good 22:43:41 you Denommus so its actually a good starting point if you looking for stuff to develop.. You can start with writing more examples, converting (what i assume dbus examples in C or other bindings that exists), to lisp, making sure they work etc 22:44:09 dbus is linux desktop RPC mechanism, and is very suitable for dynamical typed language like Lisp 22:45:13 maxm: well the code isn't bad, but it's missing functionality, like writing dbus services (I had an initial syntax design for that at the time but it's now lost in time) 22:47:01 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:56 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:03 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:13 some guy apparently still works on it (his last commit was 4 months ago) but he didn't pull request or whatever 22:49:25 -!- ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50:22 nug700 [~nug700@174-19-130-73.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:16 you should email him and ask to be new maintainer, and add note to your repo README.md about other folks having fresher versions.. 22:52:44 that is what I meant btw, CL is so easy to hack, that its easier to fix stuff, then to submit bug report 22:52:49 maxm: I know what dbus is, I just never worked with it :) 22:53:13 *maxm* is in same boat with stumpwm, I have so many fixes, that now need to spend few weeks merging probably 22:54:37 I'm also a stumpwm user. I must use a clx fork, because the main fork did not merge a bugfix that I need 22:54:39 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:56 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 22:55:06 hmm I still use clx, is there something else? My stump was forked like 2 years ago 22:55:08 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:33 maxm: hehe.. I'm not sure I want to put more energy into this project now, and anyway his changes aren't something I would approve as-is were they passed to me for review 22:55:42 main prob with stump, is architectural one, and all over the place.. People don't realize that any xlib calls, can error out if client dies 22:55:42 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 22:56:01 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:06 I'm curious about Wayland, and have some desire to make a window manager in CL for it. But I'm still waiting for xwayland to reach stable 22:56:25 so stuff like unmap-window (win) (access something in win via xli calls, then manipulate data structures) 22:56:48 any of the "access xwin via calls" can throw bad-window, leaving your data structures in with dead window in them 22:57:05 maxm: had you asked here, you would have been told that cxml is the one to use 22:57:14 maxm: there is nothing else, but there is a merge request waiting to happen for... some time 22:57:32 http://github.com/mgi/clx.git 22:58:51 fe[nl]ix: I was testing it around 3-4 years ago, and (from memory) asked on a channel, ppl had no clue.. I even vaguely remember posting my report on loading half a gig .xml file here, with cxml only one able to handle it 22:59:33 anyway, for some reason in this conversation i'm in a role of a critic, how I got here no idea :-) I like CL, and most libs are awesome 23:01:59 fe[nl]ix: oh btw yea I'll convert log4cl from stephil before 1.1 hits quicklisp too.. Now that big hurdle is out of the way 23:02:18 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.83.159] has joined #lisp 23:03:47 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:09 -!- jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@c-75-73-84-128.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:22 -!- d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:02 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:55 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:06:21 nug700_ [~nug700@174-19-133-117.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:22 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@76-205-169-48.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:49 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:08:52 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-19-130-73.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:04 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-233-92.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:12 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:26 maxm: let me know if you need help or adding new features to 5am 23:09:31 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has joined #lisp 23:09:58 fe[nl]ix: sure, you still prefer that thing (damn i forgot), instead of github issues? Some other tracker that is? 23:10:04 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 ah launchpad 23:10:27 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:29 -!- talas [~talas@unaffiliated/talas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:39 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has joined #lisp 23:12:18 maxm: not for fiveam 23:12:22 btw, speaking of libraries, anyone can recommend process manager library? Something like inittab, or better yet Tuxedo bulletin board.. That will spawn X copies of executable, with restarts, and such, have cmdline tool to boot/stop stuff etc 23:13:17 well its not really lisp specific I guess.. But in case lisp has one.. Coz I'm converting lots of my command line utils from zsh to lisp 23:13:40 what do you mean "with restarts" ? 23:14:29 not lisp restart, process restarts, like if process died, restart it... Think /etc/inittab like functionality, but wit bells and whistles 23:15:36 well was just a asking in case something like that existed already.. 23:15:43 This library problem is exactly the same in every languages. 23:16:12 The other day, I wanted an Objective-C library to display matrix views efficiently. There's at least 3 different candidate libraries. 23:16:47 When you want to try one of them, you have half a dozen forks on github. So you have to revise the fork history, and since it's obviously not linear, you have to start by making the merges you need! 23:17:08 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:15 I prefer to have that problem with lisp libraries than with those other languages, honestly. 23:17:44 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 23:18:46 -!- redscare [~Adium@CP-ONE-THIRTY-FOUR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:48 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:31 maxm: if you feel ready to read a hefty manual go for pacemaker 23:19:48 well your code is extreme case of living i your own world.. Along with dwim.hu guys :-) 23:19:56 that's a complete clustering suite 23:19:57 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:14 not criticizing the code of course, there could be awesome stuff hiding in there 23:20:25 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:20:47 but you can use it watch processes on a single machine 23:21:29 fe[nl]ix: thanks, reading their page 23:22:05 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:18 jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@c-75-73-84-128.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:05 it's quite complex but reliable 23:23:34 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:49 complex no problem, I did HACMP on aix at work before 23:23:59 looks pretty good, gonna check it out 23:26:12 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:26:29 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:27:00 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:16 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:29:35 ckoch786_ [~quassel@98.103.82.66] has joined #lisp 23:30:27 Shozan [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 23:30:42 -!- ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:09 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:04 -!- Shozan [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 23:39:59 -!- nan- [~user@46.197.112.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:23 jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 23:41:00 Question to people who use hash tables: Do you ever find the inability to construct hash tables with arbitrary equivalence predicates to be a problem in practice? 23:41:51 Shozan [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 23:42:50 Vicfred [~anon@187.206.106.161] has joined #lisp 23:43:28 have not encountered the need to have custom eq predicate yet 23:48:13 jcowan: the question is to define a custom hash function for your objects, if sxhash is not what you want. 23:48:33 jcowan: you can always write your own hash, and use that as a key to an eql hash-table. 23:48:37 So no problem in practice. 23:48:40 When does the need for that come up? 23:49:07 Well, basically when you have a specific equality operator. 23:49:37 For example, if you have structures with strings, and you want to compare those strings case sensitively. Then you can't use EQUAL nor EQUALP. You need your own. 23:49:53 (but using such structures as keys is rather rare). 23:51:29 That would seem to call for having your own equivalence predicate, rather than your own hash function, although you would need your own hash function because that predicate is coarser than any standard predicate. 23:51:35 I'm not seeing something here... 23:53:20 Perhaps have a look at: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 23:53:29 copy, equal and hash are related. 23:54:31 huss [~user@host193.190-137-232.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:54:47 That's why it's mysterious to me that you can change the hash function but not the equivalence predicate. In the case you mention, writing your own hash function just lets you get objects into the right buckets; it does *not* allow them to be removed from the buckets again, because the candidate key is not, in fact, eql to any existing key. 23:54:56 Now of course, if you write your own hash function and use that as key, you must also deal with the collisions of your hash function yourself. 23:56:10 (defun my-gethash (key clhashtable) (cdr (assoc key (gethash (my-sxhash key) clhashtable)))) 23:56:28 (defun my-gethash (key clhashtable) (cdr (assoc key (gethash (my-sxhash key) clhashtable) :test 'my-equal))) 23:57:35 But in practice, I never had to go as far. 23:57:46 -!- echo-area [~user@114.254.107.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:38 Ah, no, never mind, I was misreading everything. 23:59:32 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.217.71.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:45 In that case, it doesn't look like you gain anything from reusing any part of hash tables: you have to do all the work yourself in effect.