00:01:46 normanrichards [~normanric@173.227.88.18] has joined #lisp 00:02:06 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 00:04:26 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:59 saeftl [cbauerm@pestilenz.org] has joined #lisp 00:04:59 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 00:05:37 -!- xristos is now known as Guest40953 00:15:33 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.212.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:28:05 -!- robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:28:29 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:33 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 00:30:33 -!- ij [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:34 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33:26 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:55 -!- solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:39:17 -!- kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:39:39 ckoch786_ [~quassel@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:25 chu_ [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 00:40:38 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:59 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@173.227.88.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:41:08 -!- chu_ is now known as chu 00:41:21 galdor_ [galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 00:41:33 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:41:50 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:41:53 -!- galdor [galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:41:53 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-4-223.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:42:03 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-4-223.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:42:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:46:17 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 00:46:30 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:45 gyuguy [~tttt@5.82.188.245] has joined #lisp 00:46:51 hi 00:47:08 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has left #lisp 00:47:11 hi 00:47:23 ? 00:47:23 ?? 00:47:24 ?? 00:47:58 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 00:49:09 blar1 [~corey@cpe-107-10-62-241.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:02 -!- gyuguy [~tttt@5.82.188.245] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:24 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:53:52 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 00:56:05 d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has joined #lisp 01:03:11 functions defined within a flet can be referred to by name by later functions defined in the same flet form, right? 01:03:25 no, you need labels for that 01:03:29 oh 01:03:45 -!- Guest10140 [~theos@117.198.209.38] has quit [Quit: i will be back...nvm] 01:04:15 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 01:04:32 thanks bike; that helps clarify what the hyperspec was saying 01:04:33 daimrod` [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 01:04:46 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:05:05 -!- daimrod` [daimrod@sbrk.org] has left #lisp 01:07:45 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:29 KDr2_ [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 01:09:27 -!- lusory_ [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:10:08 drmeister1 [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:05 axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:18 Hrmm, so I'm using SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM to execute a rsync process that copies files between machines. It seems that if I interrupt the CL script that's calling RUN-PROGRAM, the rsync process continues running. Is this an instance where I should be using UNWIND-PROTECT and making sure to kill the rsync process? 01:14:28 (It's also possible that I'm missing something, I just know that two rsync processes have been running and I can't help thinking it's connected with me pressing Ctrl-C the first time.) 01:14:53 jcazeved_ [~jcazevedo@bl6-181-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:15:51 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:17:10 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 01:17:26 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: perpetual darkness] 01:17:49 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-80-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:20:11 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 01:22:20 maybe i'm wrong but sbcl can't control the process after is launched so C-c will have efect only at script level. maybe launching kill with the pid of rsync will work 01:22:26 -!- ramus_ is now known as ramus 01:23:29 rszeno: I think that's exactly what happened: my C-c interrupted the script, but not rsync. So yeah, will try to kill it with the pid. 01:23:32 Thanks 01:24:31 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:24:57 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 01:25:52 tigranes: did you use :wait t? 01:26:17 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:29 has anyone here worked with postmodern? i'm at a loss as to how to pass universal times into datetime parameters; documentation is a bit thin 01:26:37 Xach: Nope. Would that help with C-c? 01:26:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:27:07 Err, wait, yes, I do have :wait t 01:27:46 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:40 blar1: Have a look at simple-date:timestamp-to-universal-time and simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp. 01:28:56 thanks nyef 01:29:34 The reason that documentation is thin on the ground is that it's part of simple-date, not part of the postmodern package. 01:31:36 zRecursive [~czsq888@118.112.159.7] has joined #lisp 01:31:59 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 01:34:17 -!- seangrove [~user@c-24-5-81-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:28 -!- Gooder`` [~user@192.200.155.66] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:34:42 Gooder [~user@192.200.155.66] has joined #lisp 01:35:16 nyef: does the postmodern package not include :simple-date? i'm getting an 'undefined function' error when trying to use universal-time-to-timestamp 01:36:32 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has left #lisp 01:37:25 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 01:38:35 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 01:39:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-216-99.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:40:37 simple-date is its own package, postmodern might not be reexporting its symbols. 01:46:08 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-83-51.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:28 nyef: yeah, seems that way; i imported simple-date directly and it worked out fine. thanks again for the help! 01:50:19 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:21 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.250.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:05:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-83-51.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:06:40 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 02:07:00 meiji11 [~user@75.158.41.148] has joined #lisp 02:07:37 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-93-141.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:17 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-48-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:04 Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 02:16:36 Gooder`` [~user@192.200.155.73] has joined #lisp 02:19:01 -!- Gooder [~user@192.200.155.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:20:21 -!- Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:20:42 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:21:24 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:22:16 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:27 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:22:27 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 02:26:31 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 02:32:58 -!- jcazeved_ [~jcazevedo@bl6-181-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:51 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-234-140.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:36 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has joined #lisp 02:35:45 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:36:17 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vfehjhavoienuicz] has joined #lisp 02:37:30 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 02:43:49 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:41 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:52 analognoise [~user@ip68-111-11-101.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:59 Hi Lispers 02:46:49 chenqisu [~Thunderbi@113.89.211.215] has joined #lisp 02:49:02 -!- wakeup` [~user@xdsl-89-0-80-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: nn] 02:50:56 Hi 02:50:57 and hi all 02:51:03 is the lisp logo the lizard or the alien? 02:52:26 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:53 i don't know but i like the lizard, :) 02:57:14 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 02:59:43 i prefer the lizard as well. 03:01:18 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:01:47 -!- ragnul_ [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:02:05 nug700_ [~nug700@184-98-115-213.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:53 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-8.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:04:02 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-234-140.prtc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:43 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-122-253.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:50 is there anywhere with a working lisp repl through a website 03:12:52 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:04 there's that jscl thing 03:15:15 thanks Bike, I wont spend any time writing it then 03:15:54 -!- blar1 [~corey@cpe-107-10-62-241.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:16:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:03 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:05 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@pool-64-222-174-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:18:50 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 03:19:01 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 03:19:45 Are there any ways to improve CLISP's performance ? 03:20:16 compile your programs. 03:20:31 Use the JITC compiler of clisp. 03:20:41 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 03:21:11 pjb`: the program is already image by #'saveinitmem ? 03:21:21 irrelevant. 03:21:51 saveinitmem can save source code as well as byte code. 03:21:55 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:22:02 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:22:13 really?! 03:22:25 save source code ? 03:22:55 Sure. 03:23:10 i think it is already byte code in image 03:23:21 until you use compile or compile file, code is kept as source code. 03:23:30 you can compiled-function-p to double check 03:26:30 -!- ckoch786_ [~quassel@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:26:33 awful, i always think #'saveinitmem produces byte code ! 03:27:03 well, assume less in the future, then 03:27:04 It's not named savecompiledcode, so why would you think such a thing? 03:27:26 "compile" isn't even anywhere in the saveinitmem docs 03:27:57 because i am using stumpwm created by #'saveinitmem 03:28:29 guiambros [~guiambros@z65-50-88-217.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:07 well, stumpwm doesn't compile its rcs either 03:29:32 then how can i force stumpwm image to use byte code ? 03:29:59 alter make-image.lisp, i guess. 03:30:11 Though I'd make sure it's not compiled first, with compiled-function-p. 03:30:13 -!- analognoise [~user@ip68-111-11-101.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:30:37 Use (load (compile-file "source.lisp")) or quicklisp to compile your sources before loading them. 03:32:44 I am using in CLISP repl: (ql:quickload "clx") (ql:quickload "stumpwm") (ext:saveinitmem "stumpwm" :init-function (lambda () (stumpwm:stumpwm) (ext:quit)) :executable t :keep-global-handlers t :quiet t :norc nil) 03:33:13 Then the code loaded there will be compiled by quickload. 03:33:40 Now, you can compile clisp to use the jitc. 03:33:56 so it is already byte code in image now ? 03:34:09 You can check. Just check. 03:34:16 Yes, why don't you check? 03:34:26 But it should be, yes. 03:34:27 (compiled-function-p #'stumpwm:stumpwm) 03:35:11 it is T 03:35:22 there you go then. 03:35:46 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.112.229] has joined #lisp 03:36:37 but (compiled-function-p #'stumpwm::window-group) => nil 03:38:24 pjb: i first heard of jitc in clisp, more info ? 03:38:56 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 03:40:07 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:06 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 You must compile clisp --with-jitc=lightning, see ./configure --help http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/compilation.html#compile-jit 03:46:33 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 03:47:20 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 03:50:38 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 03:51:07 how split up do you guys make your programs? Each different set of functions in a separate package? or one massive file? 03:51:30 several files in a system, all with the same package 03:51:34 some people have one package per file 03:56:29 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:01:47 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:02:21 ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:18 -!- Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-8.lightwire.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:05:19 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:52 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-8.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:07:05 -!- zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:10:07 -!- guiambros [~guiambros@z65-50-88-217.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:10:08 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:10:23 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:13 Strigoid1s [~owen@114-134-0-83.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:17:37 ahungry: The same as you split up anything. For example, when you order you room, you put all the H atoms in one corner, all the He atoms next, then the Li atoms, etc. 04:17:51 Be careful to order them by atomic number, or your mom will be angry. 04:18:50 I would advise to put all your 0s in one file, and all your 1s in another. 04:19:33 pjb: Who was it that recommended puttin all the variables in one file, all the defuns in another, all the defmacros in the third, etc...? 04:19:43 loke: that sounds insane 04:19:47 Oh wait. That was someone talking about Emacs Lisp 04:19:51 Nisstyre-laptop: yes 04:19:54 oh elisp 04:19:57 still insane though 04:20:03 emacs is insane 04:20:07 :P 04:20:08 oh yes 04:20:09 emacs lisp is best stored in the /dev/null file 04:20:21 I've been writing quite a bit of elisp lately, and I can only agree :-) 04:20:29 loke: come over to Racket 04:20:38 the air is dewy 04:20:45 loke: some people actually do that for some forms.. for example, packages.lisp, constants.lisp, conditions.lisp... 04:20:52 Nisstyre-laptop: I'm sure it is, but I like Emacs. Just not that fond of elisp 04:21:05 loke: fair enough 04:21:45 adeht: To be fair, I have a conditions.lisp in my current project. :-) 04:22:07 it does contain a def define-condition, and some macros to help with error handling 04:22:17 loke: there may be some reasons to do it indeed. Not necessarily very good reasons, but still. 04:22:35 the answer to ahungry is: do what's convenient for the project at hand.. as long as you don't work with others, go wild 04:23:12 Since packages need to be defined before you can read the other files, since constants need to be defined before you can use them in macros, since macros need to be defined before you use them in other files, etc. 04:23:33 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:23:42 But this would be a file organization _inside_ a module. 04:24:12 The question in general is to organize code in a hierarchy and in layers of modules. 04:24:51 After that, how code is organized inside a module doesn't matter, indeed just do what's convenient. 04:25:48 If you have modules that take several files each, then it may be more convenient to assign a directory for each module. 04:26:15 But if you have modules that are conveniently stored inside a single file each, then you can just put all those module files in a single directory. 04:26:38 I mean, don't you feel listing those kinds of rules is crazy dumb? 04:27:09 That's why my advice will definitely be to put all your 0 bits in one file and all your 1 bits in another, and go to bed. 04:27:37 pjb: There is another benefit of doing that. The files will compress really well, so you don't need much storage space. 04:27:47 haha 04:27:53 that's true :P 04:27:55 0*n 04:29:21 it also simplifies the filesystem needed 04:31:12 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-167-124.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:34:42 azathoth99 [g@cpe-98-154-161-19.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:00 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 04:38:46 how do you add a directory to the quicklisp or asdf system path? 04:38:58 any way that's easier than that ~/.config/common-lisp file 04:39:50 the config is what you're supposed to use now. 04:40:04 asdf:*central-registry* is there though. probably deprecated 04:40:53 ahungry: you may just store it (or put a symlink) in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 04:41:18 I don't think asdf:*central-registry* would be deprecated, it's quite useful. 04:41:58 "The asdf:*central-registry* is empty by default in ASDF 2 or ASDF 3, but is still supported for compatibility with ASDF 1" not exactly deprecated, but eh. 04:42:09 ahungry: Since I have my sources in ~/src, I put a symlink to them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 04:42:46 *central-registry* is really useful for one-shot or REPL works. 04:43:31 nice, symlink is a good compromise 04:43:42 lets me keep the lisp in the git repo with the other web assets 04:43:46 Yes. 04:44:02 -!- azathoth99 [g@cpe-98-154-161-19.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:45:38 Do you guys feel there are any languages (as a whole, not to a niche) better than common lisp? 04:45:52 including things like development environments available etc 04:46:35 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:13 Sure. 04:47:21 But that's essentially a meaningless question. 04:48:00 Which languages Zhivago ? 04:48:05 ahungry: yes, Scheme 04:48:34 ahungry: although I've come around to the idea of dynamic scope 04:48:40 but I still dislike unhygienic macros 04:48:47 ahungry: All of them. 04:48:47 I guess I am a little general here - for real world web based app development (aka getting things done) - disregarding language purity or beauty 04:49:17 to me after using php for the last 7 years at work, I can get the same amount done with lisp in around 50% of the LOC in almost all cases 04:49:20 ahungry: I don't know of any current website that uses clisp and is popular 04:49:32 Ah, your metric for goodness is LOC ... 04:49:36 I know of some that used to use it 04:49:36 Nah 04:49:43 development time is a big metric 04:49:51 and typcially less LOC = easier to bring in new people 04:50:00 so it is a portion of it 04:50:06 ahungry: unless those LOC use difficult to understand abstractions 04:50:09 the slime repl is alos great 04:50:15 for tinkering it etc 04:50:38 LOC isn't necessarily correlated with simplicity 04:52:34 Hang on, I have a little sample of a php/lisp code comparison for a report I put together 04:52:50 the php was almost 2x the code for a 100 line or so program 04:52:54 both identical logic etc 04:53:01 but the php requires os much more for something like (mapcar 04:53:13 ill put up link 04:54:31 -!- meiji11 [~user@75.158.41.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:24 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has joined #lisp 04:57:05 -!- kobain_ [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Quit: l'unica verità.. è la morte stessa!] 04:57:40 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:58:17 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.154.83] has joined #lisp 04:58:34 -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:59:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.251.137] has joined #lisp 04:59:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.251.137] has quit [Changing host] 04:59:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:00:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:02:58 http://ahungry.com/lisp-vs-php.html 05:03:20 Sorry for the delay there, but that is a real brief comparison of the two 05:04:45 ahungry: you should introduce a work-order data abstration, instead of using car caddr cadddr, etc. 05:04:51 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@146.90.34.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:04:52 clhs defstruct 05:04:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 05:05:26 Instead of $wo['assigned_for'] you should write assigned_for($wo) 05:06:00 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-115-9.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:06:26 ahungry: perhaps now would be a good time to read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 05:06:47 -!- syrinx_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:56 pjb: as much as I like that book, I don't think it's useful for someone new to the topics 05:08:23 Well, that was a concise example, in my game for example, I did use name style reference to things I needed, although I just did with defclass and with-slot-value or slot-value calls 05:08:59 pjb: also, sometimes cadr is useful imo 05:09:06 -!- Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:09:09 if the language doesn't have a second function 05:09:17 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:17 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:42 -!- miah [~miah@jobsville.chia-pet.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:09:47 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:11:15 p_nathan [~vlion@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 05:11:20 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:22 What do you guys think of this type of setup 05:11:24 https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-tactics/blob/master/lisp/macros.lisp 05:11:51 (second '(1 2 3)) == (cadr '(1 2 3)) 05:12:01 It then let me run something like, (game-dataset account id user pass ip banned uid) 05:12:17 -!- brighid_ [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:17 -!- samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:17 And provides all the functions I'd want to use on it, like (accounts-to-json) 05:12:25 -!- Strigoid1s [~owen@114-134-0-83.lightwire.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:12:26 -!- kyl [~kyle_dev@deathstar.tyrfingr.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:12:33 or, (account-to-json (get-from *accounts* 'id 42)) 05:12:41 kyl [~kyle_dev@deathstar.tyrfingr.is] has joined #lisp 05:12:44 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:54 here is the main file for my game https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-tactics/blob/master/lisp/ahungry-tactics.lisp 05:13:07 brighid [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has joined #lisp 05:13:19 if you want to define something, good style is to have a def-something name for the macro 05:13:27 also, you mooched my defobject function, ahungry. :p 05:14:04 samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:18 Strigoid1s [~owen@114-134-0-16.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:14:31 ah crap lol, I think I found it on SO, I can take it out and rewrite if you want 05:14:36 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:42 how does attribution normally work on SO? 05:14:47 rofl! No problem 05:14:54 hmm accessors should perform better than slot-value 05:14:55 I do however maintain that code here: https://github.com/pnathan/defobject 05:15:16 it's a bad macro anyway 05:15:29 ahungry: no offense intended, but this code kind of makes my eyes glaze over 05:15:31 hah yea, this is you p_nathan, I see your name there 05:15:33 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3868658/defmacro-with-defclass 05:15:46 yup, that's me. 05:15:50 np Nisstyre-laptop , if you want to see the work in progress 05:15:54 ahungry: you should probably write a comment before/after each proc describing what it does 05:15:57 http://tactics.ahungry.com/play/ 05:16:07 thats what I am using the code on 05:16:14 although my hangup now is spawning 9000 npc at once locks it up 05:16:22 maybe a limit to my platry 400mb VPS 05:16:27 ahungry: this is the game you're writing? 05:16:29 s/platry/paltry 05:16:30 yea 05:16:39 ahungry: okay 05:16:45 ahungry: maybe you could use streams for that 05:16:53 then you wouldn't have to generate them all at once 05:16:54 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 05:16:58 miah [~miah@jobsville.chia-pet.org] has joined #lisp 05:17:04 but I'd need to know more about what you intend to use them for 05:17:08 and how they're structured 05:17:26 Well, 9000 would never happen in progress, last time I had about 20 testers on teh game they wanted to see over 9000 npcs 05:17:32 (internet meme) 05:17:38 Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:39 and it blew my game to bits haha 05:17:47 spawning them in a dotimes call 05:17:54 ahungry: so the problem is that with many concurrent users the game has to generate a large number of NPC objects? 05:18:05 does it have to generate them all at once? 05:18:10 I just manually called it 05:18:12 or could it do it lazily? 05:18:28 I think it has to do with my ai-controller function in the game 05:18:35 it has an issue if an npc is deleted from the *units* list also 05:18:36 in what way? 05:18:40 mid ai-controller call 05:18:46 it sees the npc at start of function 05:18:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.112.229] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:18:48 -!- cibs [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:18:48 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:18:48 -!- karupanerura [~freenode@49.212.131.99] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:18:48 teggi [~teggi@113.173.18.21] has joined #lisp 05:18:52 then they are removed due to player tcp packets coming in 05:18:55 before their ai turn ends 05:19:03 if they die 05:19:04 ahungry: okay, one thing at a time 05:19:08 Thra11 [~Thra11@87.115.104.126] has joined #lisp 05:19:20 first of all 05:19:30 I would probably avoid mutating your list too much 05:19:38 although that may be contrary to how things are done in the clisp world 05:19:50 generally avoiding mutation is a good thing (tm) 05:20:07 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:20:34 I am thinking of setting a state on them saying it should no longer be in the list, and then during a cleanup routine clearing them out 05:20:54 rather than deleting from list as soon as the player's tcp comes in (assuming the player does lethal damage) 05:20:55 ahungry: you are using concurrency right? 05:21:24 ahungry: it sounds like you have a race condition 05:21:37 the npc needs to have done something, but it gets deleted before that happens 05:21:51 *p_nathan* agrees with Nisstyre-laptop - sounds race-conditiony 05:21:51 that is correct 05:21:53 you need to synchronize things 05:22:01 it is down here, https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-tactics/blob/master/lisp/ahungry-tactics.lisp#L623 05:22:09 where the new bug is occurring 05:22:18 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.154.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:22:24 I managed to disable the bug by stopping the npc from being deleted 05:22:41 (over here https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-tactics/blob/master/lisp/ahungry-tactics.lisp#L623) 05:22:46 ugh my link didn't update 05:22:53 (over here https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry-tactics/blob/master/lisp/ahungry-tactics.lisp#L238) 05:22:56 Loosely, every time you modify a place that might be being read by something else, you need to lock that place with a mutex. 05:23:33 and then all other things reading need to wait for the unlock from the mutex. 05:24:02 check pthreads docs on mutex, last time I wandered there (> year ago) it was reasonably solid 05:24:08 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:24:09 thanks guys 05:24:42 note that there are a few mutexy things: CAS and about 3+ flavors of semaphores. 05:25:18 It's all about serializing potentially contentious operations. :) 05:25:24 there also is a class of lockless algorithms, which I recommend looking at 05:25:47 Be it by pessimistic locks or optimistically rollbacking transactions. 05:26:11 Of course, if you can remove the contention, you don't need to do anything about it. 05:26:35 Also, careful interleaving of operations minimizes the mutex slowdown (because its very slow). E.g., have your threads all hit their own block of your arrays and only syncronize when their work is done 05:27:00 there are articles, papers, books, etc going back to at least the mid-70s on this topic, so the info is out there 05:27:21 I don't think there's anything different in the clisp world than in the cl world 05:28:12 Well, apart from the fact that the clisp world is not the sbcl world, of course. 05:28:15 Well, since CL has no support for this ... that's true -- everthing is all system dependent. 05:28:47 I haven't used clisp too much, I tried it first when I started on lisp a few months ago, then used sbcl 05:29:10 IMO, better to say that for the usual case, bordeaux-threads is the default threading system. 05:30:23 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 well gang, gonna head out, thanks for the chats 05:32:52 ahungry: good luck 05:33:22 seeya! 05:34:46 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:36:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:37:30 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:38:17 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.167.208] has joined #lisp 05:39:23 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.167.208] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:28 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:28 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:39:28 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:43:59 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:43:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:43:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:44:01 recently, i've seen 'uiop' being recommended over 'cl-fad', but find cl-fad more appealing (mainly due to the documentation)... any recomendations? (or explanations of why uiop might be better?) 05:45:31 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@87.115.104.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:45:53 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 05:48:28 This is basic, and arguably I should know better, but for the life of me I can't see what the different between FDEFINITION and SYMBOL-FUNCTION is? 05:49:00 (fdefinition '(setf car)) 05:49:11 oooh 05:49:57 so, is there any reason to use SYMBOL-FUNCTION? 05:50:26 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 05:50:53 not that i'm aware of 05:51:16 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@184-98-115-213.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:52:57 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:32 -!- Strigoid1s [~owen@114-134-0-16.lightwire.co.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:53:32 -!- Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-8.lightwire.co.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:53:47 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-8.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:57:30 if you manipulate symbols and their slots explicitely symbol-function is consistent with symbol-value 05:58:04 robot-beethoven: I've not used uiop but it looks like a monster.. personally, for now I'd choose cl-fad if I need that functionality 05:58:40 Thra11 [~Thra11@122.110.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:15 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.249] has joined #lisp 06:01:30 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ffzpvkrgavfsxdfv] has joined #lisp 06:01:31 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ffzpvkrgavfsxdfv] has quit [Changing host] 06:01:31 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:01:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:02:58 agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:04 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:08:23 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 06:09:49 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-48-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 06:14:06 -!- rpgsimmaster [~rpgsimmas@system00.packetstability.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:14:30 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-48-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:55 rpgsimmaster [~rpgsimmas@system00.packetstability.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:42 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:38 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:24:24 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 06:25:05 protist [~protist@244.173.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:26:46 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010db1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:01 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:28:22 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:28:39 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 06:28:53 nha [~prefect@koln-5d81a565.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:28 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:30:58 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:31:25 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 06:33:54 Vicfred [~anon@187.206.88.24] has joined #lisp 06:35:16 yates [~user@nc-71-54-137-147.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:50 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d81a565.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:38:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 -!- balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:42 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:46:51 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:46:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:46:51 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:49:24 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-qpffhgndblpeyadg] has joined #lisp 06:58:43 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:48 kiuma [~kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:59:05 -!- whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:01:01 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:01:29 benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-166-75.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 07:01:29 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:05:26 ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:42 bitonic [~user@176.27.229.121] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 07:15:26 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:16:27 do people still use 'logical pathnames' much? 07:18:24 ... sometimes 07:19:28 I try to 07:21:43 I suspect that they're the only ones worth using. 07:22:36 would liberal use of unix namestrings cause many frowns? 07:23:46 ij [~root@91.105.17.136] has joined #lisp 07:23:47 -!- ij [~root@91.105.17.136] has quit [Changing host] 07:23:47 ij [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has joined #lisp 07:23:59 robot-beethoven, I do that, w/e 07:24:50 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:17 pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has joined #lisp 07:27:37 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vfehjhavoienuicz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:28:50 Vichfret [~anon@187.206.106.161] has joined #lisp 07:30:41 -!- Vicfred [~anon@187.206.88.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:31:43 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:31:43 -!- cmm- [~cmm@109.65.105.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:32:01 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-48-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:32:45 jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-20-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-180.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:33 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:35:00 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:36:54 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@118.112.159.7] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:38:27 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-105-2.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:42 cibs [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:42 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 07:39:42 karupanerura [~freenode@49.212.131.99] has joined #lisp 07:41:18 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:43:01 robot-beethoven: I 90% of the time, I use logical pathnames. 07:43:52 robot-beethoven: physical pathnames can hardly be manipulated in a portable way. Even a simple thing such as changing the extension of a file breaks with physical pathnames. 07:44:12 zRecursive [~czsq888@118.112.159.7] has joined #lisp 07:44:13 (make-pathname :type "TEXT" :case :common #P"/tmp/file.jpeg") 07:45:09 (make-pathname :type "TEXT" :case :common :defaults #P"/tmp/file.jpeg") --> #P"/TMP/FILE.text" or #P"/tmp/file.text" depending on the implementation 07:45:21 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:46:18 do all unix implementations parse namestrings consistently? 07:46:19 I'm very bad with manipulating extensions and stuff by just manipulating the string representation of a pathname 07:46:23 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has joined #lisp 07:46:26 at least nothing has broken so far. :) 07:47:15 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:51 robot-beethoven: they all parse logical name string very consistently (with some extensions, like accepting lower case letters and doing something strange with them). 07:48:29 Quadrescence: well, that's indeed an alternative valid enough on POSIX system: don't use PATHNAME, just use STRING. 07:49:02 Write a library to manipulate POSIX paths? 07:49:07 you can also use local case 07:49:16 ogamita, maybe a good idea 07:49:18 adeht: but what is the local case? 07:49:27 -!- chenqisu [~Thunderbi@113.89.211.215] has quit [Quit: chenqisu] 07:49:46 ogamita: well, I don't expect my pathname code to be portable :) 07:50:19 Alaa [~alaa@92.96.49.185] has joined #lisp 07:50:24 adeht: I would like my code to be runnable in 50 years, when POSIX will be dead and another system will have taken over. 07:51:09 ogamita: well logical pathnames work well if you don't need to interface with non-CL stuff 07:51:30 -!- benkard [~benkard@ppp-93-104-166-75.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 07:52:01 -!- ij [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:52:03 I never really understood what it was meant for the user of the software to set up the logical pathname translations. I mean I understand the need for them, but when and where do the translations actually get written and executed? 07:52:24 when writing a little hunchentoot server, with no plans beyond running it in sbcl on an arch-linux box, is such portability typically worth the time? 07:52:39 robot-beethoven, no it's fine 07:53:18 tcr1 [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:53:20 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-48-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:58:52 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:02:31 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:06:00 -!- pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 08:06:32 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:10:58 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:43 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 08:15:59 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:17:07 Quadrescence: you can imagine that logical pathname translations are a set of symbolic links. 08:17:33 The program is hardwired to use some paths, and the symlinks let the user redirect them to his files. 08:18:21 ogamita, yes I understand that bit 08:18:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:18:49 ogamita, is it the user's or programmer's responsibility to set up those translations? 08:18:59 The user's. 08:19:06 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-93-141.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:19:14 It's part of the installation and configuration process of an application. 08:19:30 ogamita, and where would the translations be added? to the lisp's init file seems like a bad idea 08:19:34 But then of course, you want the program to be able to install itself sanely by default. 08:19:55 I have a ~/loghosts/ directory with files containing the translations for each logical host. 08:20:00 arenz_ [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nzkrkuguqujzlwzw] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 Quadrescence: application init could have a procedure for setting up logical pathnames based on platform-specific data 08:20:37 i guess this isn't much different from current installation methods of software, where you specify PREFIX and whatever at installation time 08:20:48 Yes. 08:20:56 Quadrescence: or a bunch of environment variables 08:21:04 and choose between ~/.config/$app or ~/.$app, and stuff like that. 08:21:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:22:12 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:23:24 -!- pierpa` [~user@95.236.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:24:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:59 ij [~root@131.207.242.152] has joined #lisp 08:24:59 -!- ij [~root@131.207.242.152] has quit [Changing host] 08:24:59 ij [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has joined #lisp 08:25:32 software installation / configuration is the worst pat of software 08:27:03 thats why i never do it 08:27:23 and that's why no one uses my software 08:27:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:29:07 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:29:27 tru fax 08:30:51 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 morning 08:33:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.209] has joined #lisp 08:33:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.209] has quit [Changing host] 08:33:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:33:39 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:38:00 sie [~root@131.207.242.152] has joined #lisp 08:38:01 -!- sie [~root@131.207.242.152] has quit [Changing host] 08:38:01 sie 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has quit [] 09:04:27 ck`` [~ck@dslb-146-060-031-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:27 pierpa` [~user@95.236.59.155] has joined #lisp 09:04:56 stardiviner [~quassel@122.236.252.134] has joined #lisp 09:06:36 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:07:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:09:55 Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 09:10:29 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:10:37 -!- Quadresce_ is now known as Quadrescence 09:11:49 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-146-060-031-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:16:26 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 09:19:34 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-19.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:21:12 is there a standard way to compare structure instances? 09:21:28 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:22:33 (equalp seems not to be what I want here) 09:23:06 you need to write your own equality predicate 09:23:45 seems so 09:23:46 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:23:46 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:23:46 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:24:38 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-19.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:24:54 -!- tkd_ is now known as tkd 09:26:56 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-181-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:24 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 09:29:37 kiuma [~kiuma@109.112.192.70] has joined #lisp 09:32:32 -!- 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timeout: 276 seconds] 12:01:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-180.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:21 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-180.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:03:42 -!- aw|sovereign [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-dev] 12:05:35 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.184.230.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:08 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.43.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:45 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:07:24 prip [~foo@95.233.223.236] has joined #lisp 12:07:46 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 12:08:37 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@pppoe100.net137-7.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp 12:10:40 froggey_ [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 gf3_ [~gf3@aether.gf3.ca] has joined #lisp 12:11:49 agumonke1 [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:14 ragnul_ [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:38 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:15 cYmen_ [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 12:13:47 aw|sovereign [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:14:34 feliped [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has joined #lisp 12:15:09 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:15:11 Well, EQUALP *does* descend into structs, but it will depend on the slot contents to determine if it's usable. 12:16:06 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 12:16:26 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-11-164.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has 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has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:29 -!- n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:16:38 -!- gf3_ is now known as gf3 12:16:54 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:20 n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has joined #lisp 12:19:44 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:20:08 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:09 monotrichous65 [~monotrich@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:38 d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:20:59 CrazyEddy [~reporting@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:21:02 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-11-164.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:17 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:42 given a struct with slots that are strings, local-time:timestamp, list of strings and list of lists (tree) of symbols and strings, I had to write my own predicate, which is fair enough 12:26:16 with CL I tend to expect plenty of things just working with no effort from me, because it often works that way ;) 12:28:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@109.112.192.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:28:43 duty2 [~nobody@59.164.97.118] has joined #lisp 12:29:16 -!- drmeister1 [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:16 eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.249] has joined #lisp 12:29:59 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 12:31:07 dim: MW-EQUIV might help save some time. 12:31:12 I don't know for sure, though. 12:31:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:31:58 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:16 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 12:32:27 anyone with image processing/regression analysis background willing to help the village idiot? 12:32:32 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:56 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 12:33:20 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:33:27 No background here, but I've read a couple of things about it. 12:33:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:33:52 Xach: well my predicate function is 6 lines of lisp 12:34:38 ogamita, i have a head-pose estimation app, and am observing some anomalies with RANSAC 12:35:16 if pose has reprojection error of 4, it makes practical sense to remove features with error > 3.5, not, say, 4.5 or 5 12:35:32 i find this very counterintuitive 12:36:14 another thing, RANSAC seems to require absurdly high feature counts (say 0.75 of all) in order not to degenerate 12:37:25 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:37 -!- easye`` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:58 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:01 another thing, despite _constant_ detector input, and RANSAC every video frame, X-axis-rotation is inconsistent, all that while having little to no jitter 12:40:22 kiuma [~kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:40:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:42:00 other implementors have gone the route of keeping an existing model alive _without_ _any_ detector input 12:42:04 which i find amusing 12:43:16 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:42 tigranes_ [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-118.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:46 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-180.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:44:10 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:44:35 i've tried that as well, but it tends to degenerate as well with plain ol' RANSAC, reprojection error skyrockets, then drops and then 'optimizes' to absurd pose 12:44:48 KDr2_ [~KDr2@114.243.249.119] has joined #lisp 12:44:55 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:8928:5a5e:1730:7bf4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:45:03 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-134-139-25.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Harag] 12:47:35 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:36 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:36 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-118.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:36 -!- jaimef_ [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:36 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:37 -!- borism [~boris@ec2-46-137-69-182.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:47:52 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has joined #lisp 12:49:48 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 12:49:54 -!- agumonke1 [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:51:12 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:51:26 -!- Vichfret [~anon@187.206.106.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:52:05 drmeister1 [~drmeister@166.137.107.157] has joined #lisp 12:52:41 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 12:54:31 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-20-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:54:49 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 12:56:23 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:06 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57:14 luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 12:57:19 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:38 -!- duty2 [~nobody@59.164.97.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:42 -!- yates [~user@nc-71-54-137-147.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57:56 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-167-124.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:18 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:00:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:00:28 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:07 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:03:30 weirdo: Well, if there's a very lot of noise, I wouldn't expect RANSAC to be able to help. So instead, perhaps you could keep some "historical" data, and use it to constraint the possible (non "absurd") poses. 13:03:56 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-59.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:14 ogamita, i use the classic iterative pose solver 13:04:21 it seems to give better results than EPNP 13:04:33 ogamita, there isn't that much noise, drift, rather 13:04:46 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 13:08:18 Well, that's over me, you need a more technical answer than I can provide. 13:08:47 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 13:09:11 ogamita, actually, it's probably as simple as 'don't track the nose' or something more common-sense :) 13:09:24 paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 13:09:28 ogamita, but that requires some sitting down with the code :) 13:10:37 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 13:10:43 yes, it may be something simple as a floating point problem, or tuning a parameter. Have you tried with wildely different number of iterations for RANSAC? 13:11:14 ogamita, i've gone between 0.85 and 0.4, no kidding 13:11:24 with between 80-200 keypoints at any frame 13:11:31 antgreen [~green@out-on-209.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 -!- drmeister1 [~drmeister@166.137.107.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:10 I mean K, the number of iterations in RANSAC? Perhaps it needs to iterate more? 13:12:58 There's some random in there too. Have you got a good pseudo-random number generator? 13:13:46 ogamita, good enough. as for iterations, 100 iterations is already taxing for realtime 13:14:26 movbh [~wircer@tmo-096-0.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:28 ogamita, the implementation terminates before well before 100 iterations, due to finding a satisfiable pose 13:14:45 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:14:49 ogamita, iterative solver is slow, but accurate. OTOH, EPNP doesn't seem to do least-squares at all 13:15:10 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:09 -!- Vutral_ [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:21:30 ogamita, a silly question - many years ago i've read of the 'prototypical bogus algorithm', which consists of throwing stuff in the air to sort it 13:21:37 -!- movbh [~wircer@tmo-096-0.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:21:37 ogamita, isn't ransac just it? 13:22:11 it doesn't draw any correspondences between data points, just throws it up repeatedly 13:22:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.251.137] has joined #lisp 13:22:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.251.137] has quit [Changing host] 13:22:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:23:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23:43 Well, if you make the upward impulse proportional to the degree of error .. 13:23:51 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:23:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:23:51 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:23:54 weirdo: Well, it keeps a concensus set, but otherwise, it's quite random indeed. 13:25:03 If the implementation is correct, then that must be that there are several local optimums in the data, and randomly RANSAC finds a bad one. I would try to eliminate those bad optimums, either by tracking the previous poses (with the velocity of change which would allow you to estimate the area the next concensus should be found), or perhaps using alternative algorithms when this problem occurs. 13:25:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:25:44 ogamita, i optimize the previous frame's pose, which gives less jitter, but doesn't improve consistency 13:25:51 duty2 [~nobody@59.164.97.118] has joined #lisp 13:26:18 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:26:32 ogamita, the problem is elusive - pitch rotation performs significantly worse than other axes 13:26:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:26:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:27:01 drmeister1 [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:27:05 there's little jitter on it, but! rotate some 25 deg downward, all good, but come back, and result is +- 4 deg of what it was 13:27:36 Outch! 13:27:49 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 13:27:59 agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:11 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:53 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:34:29 -!- Guest40953 is now known as xristos 13:37:28 -!- sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:37:59 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.3.216] has joined #lisp 13:37:59 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.3.216] has quit [Changing host] 13:37:59 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:38:19 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:40:56 movbh [~wircer@tmo-096-0.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:39 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:44:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:11 jokar [~mohsen@unaffiliated/jokar] has joined #lisp 13:46:29 -!- jokar [~mohsen@unaffiliated/jokar] has left #lisp 13:46:39 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:11 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:48:26 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:46 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:52:42 santana [~santana@201-167-0-181-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 13:53:54 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:53:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:53:54 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:55:44 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:55:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:16 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 13:56:41 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:58:56 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-68-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 sie [~root@213.175.126.9] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 -!- sie [~root@213.175.126.9] has quit [Changing host] 13:59:55 sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has joined #lisp 14:04:49 -!- antgreen [~green@out-on-209.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:07:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-123.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:30 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:07:30 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:07:30 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:07:30 weirdo: smoothing may help.. e.g., kalman filter.. 14:07:37 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.51] has joined #lisp 14:08:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:08:38 adeht, i'm already using an exponential filter for filtering of the result... but the pitch is systematic error, not jitter 14:10:09 -!- agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:11:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:12:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:12:43 weirdo: I see.. these kinda things require more in-depth knowledge of the system to solve, if they are solvable at all hehe.. and frankly I stopped messing with computer vision two years ago or so.. 14:12:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:13:44 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:13:48 agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:50 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 -!- drmeister1 [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:42 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:18:47 -!- pierpa` [~user@95.236.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:20:45 syrinx_ [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:45 -!- syrinx_ [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:20:45 syrinx_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 14:21:07 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:21:10 hi 14:21:46 has anyone seen this? http://readable.sourceforge.net/ 14:22:27 AeroNotix [~xeno@abok233.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:22:42 hmm I'm not sure if I've seen that particular one but there were a number of lisp-inspired languages that dropped the parens 14:23:10 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:14 ah it was in my bookmarks, so I guess that yes heh 14:24:16 yes, like Dylan 14:24:23 but this one actually isn't a language 14:24:31 it's a Common Lisp library 14:24:35 "readable" 14:25:04 davorb_ [~davor@194.47.245.35] has joined #lisp 14:25:06 I think it is, at least, didatically interesting 14:25:11 brighid_ [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has joined #lisp 14:25:13 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 -!- movbh [~wircer@tmo-096-0.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:25:58 the whole page is full of "wtf?" 14:26:07 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.249] has joined #lisp 14:26:31 tcr2 [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:26:49 yeh it's from the same dude that came up with old "sweet expressions" nonsense 14:26:57 Labrit [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:03 ryankara1on [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:10 what about ML, though? 14:27:11 It's been a few years since then. 14:27:18 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-qpffhgndblpeyadg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:26 one thing i hate about typing parens is how 'let' doesn't auto-scope 14:27:34 this makes me lose my flow 14:27:41 DrForr__ [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:50 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 so, s-exp is short for sour-expressions? 14:28:06 p_l_ [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 14:28:11 stassats, lack of sexp is diabetes-expr 14:28:15 rootzlevel [~hpd@v22010117464441099.yourvserver.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:51 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:33 Denommus: I found http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/ more worthy of studying, when it comes to algolish lisp abominations 14:29:36 drmeister1 [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:30:00 I guess that the main problem is that such solutions aren't made for lispers :) 14:30:12 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:30:14 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 14:30:16 karswell` [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:30:16 i'm more concerned by the notion that the language popularity is determined by the syntax 14:30:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:30:27 movbh [~wircer@tmo-096-0.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:28 popularity is overrated 14:30:48 how many marginal algolish languages have "widespread adoption" anyway? 14:30:52 what's better? typeclasses or modules all the way down? DISCUSS! 14:31:02 stassats: not to count xml ones 14:31:31 yes, personally, I can't imagine using readable after getting used to paredit 14:31:41 stassats: I'm not sure that's true. Many of the criticisms of javascript are also applicable to lisp. 14:32:01 Ignoring the usual implicit conversion confusions. 14:32:47 I think it's largely just a matter of network effects. 14:33:30 and its side-effects, more users, more libraries, more quality 14:33:35 That, and CL is showing its age. 14:34:03 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:34:07 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:11 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 14:34:19 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-198-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:22 samebcha1e [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:25 |3b|` [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:35:58 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:35:59 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.249] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:35:59 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:35:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- brighid [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:00 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:01 -!- hpd [~hpd@v22010117464441099.yourvserver.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:01 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:01 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@equine.vacantminded.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:01 -!- davorb [~davor@194.47.245.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:02 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-24-6-156-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:36:08 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-24-6-156-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:36:58 EvW1 [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:16 zvrba [96456@diamant.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:37:17 callen_ [~callen@198.199.80.102] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 eak_ [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:33 sigjuice [~sigjuice@184.106.98.73] has joined #lisp 14:37:37 Zhivago: which criticisms are valid? 14:37:46 rk[impos1er] [~rak@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 14:37:48 Anarch_ [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:51 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 14:37:51 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 14:37:51 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 14:37:57 arkx_ [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 14:38:12 brucem_ [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:36 Zhivago: what I hear about Javascript is the implicit conversion mess, the comparison mess (which is very, VERY explicit in Lisp), the absence of true lexical variables 14:38:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:39:06 What? It has lexical variables. 14:39:13 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-115-6.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:18 not exactly 14:39:19 -!- ryankara1on is now known as ryankarason 14:39:24 Yes, exactly. 14:39:30 like var blah = 0; for(var i=0;i<3;i++) var blah = i; alert(blah) will print "2", not 0 14:39:31 try #javascript 14:39:36 Also, comparison is pretty much EQL vs EQUALish. 14:39:54 when in Lisp you have eq, eql, equal and equalp 14:40:02 deliciousrobots_ [~delicious@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 So, more of a mess? :) 14:40:08 besides char=, string=, = 14:40:11 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 14:40:28 denommus: That's not an example of not having true lexical variables. 14:40:39 all of them are very well defined, and every single book will tell about the differences between them 14:40:49 Javascripts books simply say "use only ===, not ==" 14:41:01 gensym_ [~timo@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 dim` [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 14:41:09 denommus: Some do, where you'd use EQL in CL. 14:41:44 -!- sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:47 Zhivago: (let ((blah 0)) (loop for i from 0 below 3 do (let ((blah i)) ...)) (print blah)) will print 0 14:41:56 Zhivago: hash-tables 14:42:26 eli` [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 -!- rking1 [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:38 -!- mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:38 -!- gensym [~timo@85.158.178.76] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:38 -!- sigjuice_ [~sigjuice@184.106.98.73] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:38 -!- tessier_ [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:38 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:38 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-198-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:39 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:39 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:39 -!- eak [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:40 -!- callen [~callen@unaffiliated/callen] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:40 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:40 -!- rk[imposter] [~rak@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:40 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:40 -!- arkx [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:41 -!- brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:42 -!- deliciousrobots [~delicious@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:42 -!- zvrba_ [96456@diamant.ifi.uio.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:42 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:42 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:42:42 -!- gensym_ is now known as gensym 14:42:42 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 14:42:42 -!- eli` [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:42 why is javascript being discussed in #lisp? 14:42:47 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 14:43:05 stassats: I'm saying that Javascripts' criticisms do not apply to Common Lisp 14:43:06 -!- dim` is now known as dim 14:43:15 maybe some do, but not the most usual ones 14:43:22 Except that your examples are bogus. 14:44:10 The more interesting criticisms are the dynamicity, the weird object system, and so on. 14:44:32 Zhivago: the equivalent example in Javascript is blah = 0; for(var i=0;i<3;i++) function() {var blah = i;}(); alert(blah);, which is ugly as hell 14:44:53 Zhivago: Javascript is prototype based, Common Lisp is class based 14:44:53 Zhivago: these don't sound like criticisms 14:45:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:45:33 Denommus: I don't think this discussion is illuminating much besides your inexperience with both CL and JS. 14:45:36 Denommus: So, it does have proper lexical variables then ... it's just not the block level scope to which you're accustomed. 14:45:46 Zhivago: and you can explicit declare the typing of a variable in Common Lisp using declare 14:45:48 Denommus: Perhaps if you'd like to continue with it, use private messages. 14:46:04 Denommus: That's just a promise to the compiler that you won't complain about UB when you get it wrong. 14:46:32 ok, I'll end the discussion here 14:47:58 ckoch [~ckoch@98.103.82.66] has joined #lisp 14:48:02 anyway, criticizing Common Lisp for the object system and dynamicity completely loses the point 14:48:26 jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-20-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:48:55 Denommus: I suggest re-evaluating your assessment of javascript in the same light -- the process might illustrate the thinking that underlies many of the critcisms of CL. 14:49:26 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:29 rking1 [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 14:49:33 Zhivago: oh please 14:50:55 -!- movbh [~wircer@tmo-096-0.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: Lost Connection] 14:50:59 only to be clear, I have nothing agains Javascript 14:51:06 s/agains/against/ 14:51:40 I'm not saying that you do -- but look at why you believe that it lacks proper lexical scoping, for example. 14:52:21 -!- joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:00 I was actually talking about some criticisms that I have listened IRL 14:53:37 pierpa` [~user@95.236.59.155] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:07 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:14 sie [~root@213.175.126.9] has joined #lisp 14:54:14 -!- sie [~root@213.175.126.9] has quit [Changing host] 14:54:14 sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has joined #lisp 14:54:28 That reminds me of people talking about how everything in lisp is a list. 14:55:01 It's turtles all the way down! 14:55:15 (or was that Logo?) 14:55:24 I can site at least one book that says everything in lisp is made up on cons :) 14:55:27 I actually wish they were common. The most common Lisp criticism is "look at all those filthy parenthesis!" 14:55:55 Yes, but I think it comes down to anything weird and partially understood. 14:56:18 Even that's more articulate than the complaint I usually hear: "I hate Lisp." "Why?" "I hate it." 14:56:21 "common Common Lisp criticism". This sounds weird 14:57:16 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 14:57:28 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 patrickwonders: this is a good example in most languages, actually. I'm a Java hater, but I honestly hate even more the other Java haters that use crappy arguments 15:00:32 Denommus: One of my Java friends has hung his hat on "Lisp doesn't support encapsulation, so it sucks." ..wheee. it's at least an argument.. though easily dispatched if not given a few minutes to demonstrate... 15:00:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:01:29 Well, it's true by many standards. 15:01:45 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:01:51 The more interesting question to ask is -- what problem is encapsulation trying to solve, and how does lisp solve it? 15:02:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 patrickwonders: except it does, through packages 15:02:39 kanru [~kanru@66.207.208.98] has joined #lisp 15:03:06 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:19 encapsulation tries to hide unnecessary information from the client application or library. The package system does just that 15:03:21 Denommus: He still has a problem with being able to :: your way through packages. *shrug* .. and he doesn't have the patience for a closures-based approach. 15:03:59 Denommus: That's what it does -- not the problem that it solves. 15:04:03 patrickwonders: it's possible to have access to any private field in Java through reflection 15:04:05 Depending on your point of view the point of encapsulation is to "make stuff inaccessible" rather than "make stuff inconvenient to access" 15:04:08 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 15:04:09 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:04:09 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:04:09 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 15:04:14 That's true. 15:04:23 The problem that it tries to solve is essentially denoting which interfaces are going to be maintained. 15:04:35 Zhivago: I agree. 15:04:37 -!- protist [~protist@215.172.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:47 Encapsulation is really about service contracts. 15:05:14 Packages do that just fine for my purposes. 15:05:23 Well, exported symbols may. 15:05:51 -!- brucem_ is now known as brucem 15:06:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:06:20 If I were writing safety-critical software, I might be a bit more concerned about how my peers are circumventing the published API and what I can do to prevent it (beyond churning the non-public stuff so often they break daily). 15:06:26 Lisp tends to rely on convention rather than attempt enforcement 15:06:32 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 patrickwonders: Let's not tell your friend about method.setAccessible(true); 15:07:25 Only problem that I have with Lisp packages is that I tend to often have a type and a class and a function all with the same name and would sometimes like to only export the function. 15:07:32 pkhuong: *nod* 15:08:15 patrickwonders: since Lisp relies on convention, the solution to that could be proper documentation 15:08:33 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-198-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:49 patrickwonders: you could also put them in different packages 15:08:50 And the documentation being accessible at the REPL is a big win over Javadoc, etc. 15:08:59 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-198-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:01 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:33 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@113.172.36.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:34 Denommus: Sometimes I do, but then I end up needing to use the package-prefix for one of them throughout because if I import, then I end up with one symbol again... 15:10:06 indeed 15:10:12 Denommus: Usually, I just rename either the type to something ending in -t or rename the function to something less-than-ideal (in my mind) or live with exporting both. 15:12:37 -!- KDr2_ [~KDr2@114.243.249.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:13:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-108-48-74-4.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:55 knob9876 [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:44 AntiSpamMeta_ [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 15:15:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Killed (cameron.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 15:15:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 15:15:55 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:26 Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:31 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 15:16:32 yrk` [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:33 edgar-rfx [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:37 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:46 ASau` [~user@p5797F6D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:52 pkhuong: From a few days ago indeed declaiming MAKE-FOO inline and a keywordless wrapper to it INLINE runs at the same speed in SBCL as a BOA constructor. With Clozure CL, the BOA constructor is 12% faster. Haven't tried other impls. 15:16:57 joe9_ [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:13 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:17:16 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:17:16 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 15:17:27 housel` [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:17:34 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:18:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.216] has joined #lisp 15:18:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.216] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:18:31 galdor [galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 -!- froggey_ is now known as froggey 15:18:52 Mandus_ [~aasmundo@128.39.36.51] has joined #lisp 15:19:05 lusory_ [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 so, the guy that wanted to do a Lisp OS appeared again? 15:19:43 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:20:06 ryankara1on [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:07 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 15:21:40 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:21:48 That's what happens. THEY don't want anyone to get a Lisp OS working. 15:22:13 nug700_ [~nug700@174-19-140-122.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 I think a good start would be at least a boot-to-common-lisp, like the Guix guys made a boot-to-guile 15:23:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:26 -!- joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:26 -!- eak_ [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:26 -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:27 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.51] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:27 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:27 -!- duty2 [~nobody@59.164.97.118] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:27 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:28 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:28 -!- aw|sovereign [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:28 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:29 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:30 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:30 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:30 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:30 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:31 -!- galdor_ [galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:31 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F6D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:31 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:31 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:33 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:33 -!- patrickwonders_ is now known as patrickwonders 15:23:42 minion: movitz 15:23:42 movitz: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/movitz 15:23:50 eak [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:24:21 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-115-6.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:24:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:49 very, very interesting, but it has nothing to do with what I have said :) 15:25:09 -!- knob9876 [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:10 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576ea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:27:02 -!- edgar-rfx is now known as edgar-rft 15:27:44 Movitz boots to Common Lisp, so I think you can see how that might seem to be related to what you said. 15:29:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:00 Xach: this is not very well described in the cliki 15:30:13 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:20 http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ 15:30:24 does better... 15:30:46 -!- arenz_ [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nzkrkuguqujzlwzw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:23 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 15:31:30 duty2 [~nobody@59.164.97.118] has joined #lisp 15:32:13 aw|sovereign [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 15:33:35 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:16 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Client Quit] 15:34:41 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:46 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:48 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 15:35:02 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 15:36:44 *patrickwonders* wonders how I'm supposed to get any work done today when I could be playing with Movitz.. 15:38:25 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 15:40:24 -!- feliped is now known as felideon 15:40:52 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has joined #lisp 15:42:55 -!- sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:46:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has joined #lisp 15:47:48 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Quit: jute] 15:48:28 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:48:31 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-dev] 15:49:21 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:48 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:51:48 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-59.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:52:25 adeht, fwiw, landmark 3d coordinates were poorly chosen 15:53:19 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:56:28 ok 15:56:40 -!- ryankara1on is now known as ryankarason 15:57:15 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:57:32 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:01:07 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:49 movitz doesn't look actively developed 16:02:09 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:36 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 16:03:23 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:32 Nope. 16:04:02 Muerte, what a creepy name for a subsystem 16:04:15 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 16:04:19 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:27 I guess you already know this, but just in case: 16:06:28 http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2013/03/kalman-reti-on-lisp-machines.html 16:07:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:07:13 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:38 hmm if it could borrow drivers written for an existing OS system it would have more chances of getting used/developed, PC needs a fairly large and steady team of driver developers 16:08:19 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:31 indeed 16:08:36 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:12 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 sie [~root@213.175.126.9] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 -!- sie [~root@213.175.126.9] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:08 sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has joined #lisp 16:11:43 phadthai: if you did an OS on top of Movitz compatible with Linux drivers it would be great 16:11:50 but my dream is userspace Lisp drivers 16:12:08 I'm gonna lunch, goodbye 16:13:13 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:33 some years back I thought of a bsd or linux kernel, minimal userland with lisp init(8), but that also has its problems: although there are threads, posix systems are mostly based on processes, meaning that most applications (including init(8) would also need their own quite large heap because of GC)... multithreaded software could use memory more effectively, but then they have to compete more for the resources as well... then there's the same ... 16:13:39 ... old issue of ffi to C and POSIX 16:14:33 so basically nothing new than what we already have, other than a smaller base system 16:15:46 and no lisp-based desktop environment and dbus-like lisp replacement until someone writes that as well on tpo 16:15:50 s/tpo/top/ 16:16:33 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:16:59 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-119-74.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:03 movbh [~wircer@tmo-111-134.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:24 -!- w37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:26 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:05 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:10 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:20:12 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@174-19-140-122.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:20:46 no dbus is a feature, not a bug 16:20:55 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 well my own systems don't have it, so I guess I (don't?) agree :) 16:22:22 I would say don't worry about all the HW support and just target qemu or virtualbox; you won't get BSD or linux level HW support without every single lisp developer stopping what they are doing and writing drivers for a few years 16:22:47 er "no debus" as in the lack of debus is a good thing is what I was trying to say; I realize it was ambiguous 16:25:19 gvz [~garvezys@78-60-33-10.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:25:45 hmm but then why not something much cleaner like a hypothetical llvm based "machine" with minimal I/O driver ports that can run as process directly or can boot in a minimal os+llvm instead of having to deal with x86 code 16:26:48 Some day I'll understand x86 phobia. 16:27:11 if you used asm on something else, and now have to use x86, you might heh 16:28:35 x86 assembly is much nicer to write by hand than SPARC or PPC. 16:29:28 Miles ahead of llvm ir. 16:29:30 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-205-252.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:53 pkhuong: I prefer ppc just because I can reason about its performance more easily 16:29:58 davazp [~user@92.251.136.94.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 16:30:21 pkhuong: also ppc has more registers than are necessary which makes hand-coded assembly easier 16:30:22 jasom: always slow ;) 16:30:42 though x86 is easy; no spare registers, just use a stack 16:31:04 also compare the size of locore.S on the various architectures 16:32:47 I don't remember when I last had to tickle an A20 gate. The boot process is irrelevant to the quasi totality of code on any useful architecture. 16:34:43 -!- sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:34:47 jasom: fortunately there are some registers now, although also all the old compat stuff 16:35:22 pkhuong: well yes and now, in the context of a "hypothetical llvm machine" such a new architecture would not have to deal with all the legacy 16:35:32 s/now/no/ 16:36:31 I think someone did make a VM to run on top of llvm, but IIRC it wasn't that general purpose 16:37:16 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ddvyuhokhmbgozrp] has joined #lisp 16:37:35 jasom: if you find the link or name I'd be interested to look at it, it's something that came to my mind at various times 16:38:18 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:25 -!- movbh [~wircer@tmo-111-134.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:38:32 phadthai: http://vmkit.llvm.org/ 16:38:35 I'm no kernel wizard, but Smalltalk guys have a mini-Smalltalk on top of a machine dependent code which bootstraps Smalltalk, which makes it very portable to any arch. 16:39:40 when I first thought of it was for use as a new netbsd architecture, when I noticed years back how the vax port was clean and ran well in simh heh 16:39:55 jasom: thanks 16:41:54 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:42:20 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:46:45 satshabad [~satshabad@host-134-71-206-86.allocated.csupomona.edu] has joined #lisp 16:51:01 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:52:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:52:08 -!- mikaelj_ [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:14 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:52:15 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@host-134-71-206-86.allocated.csupomona.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:52:21 -!- emma_ is now known as em 16:55:24 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.177.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:24 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:17 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 17:00:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@host148-131-static.28-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576ea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:00:42 aw|rattler [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 17:01:08 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:36 mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:00 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 Are there any problems with calling DELETE-FILE as the final form in the body of WITH-OPEN-FILE of the same file? 17:03:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:04:21 It probably won't work on Windows. I don't think you can delete open files on Windows. 17:05:03 Also, if an exception is thrown in the WITH-OPEN-FILE body, do you still want the file? Maybe UNWIND-PROTECT is better? 17:05:58 tigranes_: there shouldn't be any problem on a Unix 17:06:17 why not close :abort? 17:06:17 -!- tigranes_ is now known as tigranes 17:07:06 *tigranes* looks those up. 17:07:21 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 17:07:24 and on Win32 you can't delete open files that were opened through the Win32 API, only those opened directly through the NT kernel API 17:07:42 (block nil (with-open-file ... (return))) should use (close :abort t) 17:08:14 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.253] has joined #lisp 17:08:21 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 of course, it will be deleted only of open created it in the first place 17:08:46 Hrm, it says :ABORT only deletes the file if the stream is an output stream. Mine is an input stream. 17:09:12 then why do you want to delete it inside the body of with-open-file? 17:09:12 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-47-196.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 Trying to 1) write a WITH-PID-FILE macro, which 2) has a restart that kills the process with the PID that's in the PID file. So I thought if the process is killed by the restart, I should delete the pid file. 17:11:28 -!- duty2 [~nobody@59.164.97.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:31 And since I needed the restart to know the PID from the PID file, the restart is inside the WITH-OPEN-FILE. 17:11:47 you can close the stream and set the stream variable to nil 17:12:24 hmmm 17:12:34 or not.. wonder why I remembered that you could 17:12:53 wouldn't you write your own pid into the file upon that restart? 17:13:40 and it doesn't follow from that that the restart has to execute inside with-open-file 17:15:30 Oh, you're right, I can read the pid into a variable, close the stream, and then do the restart 17:16:18 don't forget to think about race conditions 17:16:48 :( 17:18:52 fe[nl]ix, patrickwonders, stassats: Thanks for the help, I think I can cobble somethng together now. And look into race conditions... 17:20:46 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 17:21:41 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:23:02 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:54 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:24:49 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:25:10 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:27 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 17:27:30 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 17:33:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:35:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:36:26 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:36:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 -!- spacefrogg_ is now known as spacefrogg 17:41:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-123.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:23 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-167-124.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:06 -!- Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 17:46:46 skalawag [~barnacle@li206-225.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 movbh [~wircer@tmo-111-134.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:11 tigranes: was it you who was working on the web game earlier? If so, I think it's a nice project, perhaps a few tips (you were gone when I had the opportunity to read one of your source files): you might find with-accessors and function accessors useful vs slot-value only (which is generally slower and might even be longer to type depending), I also noticed in the code series of let for defaults, but functions arguments, structure slots and ... 17:48:18 ... clos slots can also have defaults; just things to look into 17:48:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:24 hitecnologys2 [~hitecnolo@94.137.27.112] has joined #lisp 17:49:49 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:50:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@pppoe100.net137-7.omkc.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:52:36 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 17:56:13 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:56:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:58:21 -!- hitecnologys2 [~hitecnolo@94.137.27.112] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys2] 17:59:05 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-24-173-248-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:00 -!- jaaso [~jaaso@109.175.27.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:50 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:07 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:06:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:06:48 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 18:07:38 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:09:36 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:13:19 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 -!- movbh [~wircer@tmo-111-134.customers.d1-online.com] has left #lisp 18:15:44 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 18:15:46 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abnz63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:15:50 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abnz63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:15 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.204.59] has joined #lisp 18:16:21 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abnz63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:17:45 -!- samebcha1e is now known as samebchase 18:17:45 -!- skalawag [~barnacle@li206-225.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 18:18:45 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abok233.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:22:57 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.136.94.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:23:57 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abnz63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 18:24:00 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:24:11 AeroNotix [~xeno@abnz63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:25:29 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 18:32:05 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.204.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:36:44 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-93-141.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:39:58 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:40:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:44:53 -!- harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:38 dtm [~dtm@adsl-69-110-3-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:39 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-24-173-248-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 18:53:31 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.204.59] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:54:43 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:55:19 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 18:55:29 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:54 nongeek [~mohsen@178.131.209.194] has joined #lisp 18:59:01 hello all 18:59:15 Can I find the author of land of lisp book here? 19:00:21 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 19:01:43 -!- nongeek [~mohsen@178.131.209.194] has left #lisp 19:06:35 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-47-196.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:53 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.79.73] has joined #lisp 19:07:34 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:08:44 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has joined #lisp 19:10:30 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.154.83] has joined #lisp 19:13:00 davazp [~user@178.167.243.210.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 19:13:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:14:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:30 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has joined #lisp 19:15:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:08 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.28.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:52 -!- pierpa` [~user@95.236.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:20:36 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:25 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 19:21:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:22:31 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:35 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:27:56 -!- gvz [~garvezys@78-60-33-10.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:29:54 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-118.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:30:32 no 19:30:42 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.177.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:32:44 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:32:50 -!- ckoch is now known as ckoch786 19:32:57 redscare [~Adium@18.189.50.44] has joined #lisp 19:33:43 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 19:34:05 when compiling one of my files, I have the issue where a function refers to an as-yet undefined variable. right now, I just compile the file twice in slime, which causes the variables to become defined, and the second compilation succeeds. is there a better way of doing this? 19:34:30 one option is to define the variable before referencing it. 19:35:22 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 19:35:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:37:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:37:55 i think i simplified my problem too much. what i meant to say was that i'm referring to a function I haven't defined yet, and passing that to a function, but i don't see a way of working around that 19:38:30 besides making the recieving function a macro 19:40:06 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 19:41:17 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.118] has joined #lisp 19:41:54 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:42:54 redscare: You could just pass the symbol that will be its name, instead. 19:43:14 Or define the function beforehand. 19:46:01 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:46:41 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-127-181.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:49:22 I wonder why lisp isn't more popular 19:49:58 And why people think it's an esoteric language 19:50:26 because people wonder instead of doing 19:50:37 because people are stupid, naturally 19:51:02 Borbus: honestly, there's enough misinformation about lisp to fuel several language wars 19:51:20 there's enough pro-lisp misinformation, too 19:51:30 and most people's "first contact" is... bad 19:51:42 as in, type systems of the sixties being presented as state of the art 19:51:59 I sometimes wonder if learnign it has really improved my life.. I've now seen the rich pasture, but I'm not allowed to graze in it 19:52:23 actually, thanks at least partially to ruby, you can 19:52:41 because getting "whatever kind of stack you want" on the net is now much, much easier 19:52:47 lisp popularity is the most boring discussion you can start 19:52:57 and compared to Mono deployment, SBCL is fscking king 19:53:15 p_l, on windows? 19:53:26 I've been wondering about learning a new "in fashion" language 19:53:31 weirdo: *Mono*. On Windows I can use MS' .NET, which works fine 19:53:33 Maybe I should learn ruby 19:53:35 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 p_l, *SBCL* 19:53:46 with threads! 19:53:53 weirdo: for windows I'd use CCL then 19:54:05 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:54:19 I used SBCL as an example because I'm often heard grumbling about executable sizes from SBCL 19:54:43 p_l, you wanted dynamic, you wanted vm... 19:54:45 :) 19:54:57 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 19:54:57 instead of a static modern typed LTO'd executable 19:55:20 minion: chant 19:55:20 MORE POPULAR 19:55:47 weirdo: you mean "paid for LispWorks"? ;) 19:55:56 n.b. I did have an Allegro license for some time :> 19:55:56 p_l, no, i mean some ML dialect :( 19:56:32 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-114-117.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 weirdo: I don't have anything against ML dialects, or Haskell, but some (especially Haskell) are getting waaay too much of people masturbating to type systems without actually thinking deeper 19:57:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-93-141.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:21 p_l, i prefer modules to typeclasses 19:57:28 I once told someone that I use lisp and they said "I keep meaning to try functional languages" 19:57:31 no need for n-order blahblah 19:57:55 ...modules and typeclasses are orthogonal? 19:59:22 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-48-148.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 sykopomp, more like, interchangeable 20:01:50 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:54 not exactly 20:02:06 on a lispier note, packages and genfuns work -really- well together :) 20:02:18 one or the other isn't enough. Gotta have both. 20:02:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:04:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:33 PHB love Ada; some of them don't even know it yet 20:07:38 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:02 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 20:11:21 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:48 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 20:15:58 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:17:57 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:18:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:19:24 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 20:19:39 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.154.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:21:49 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-181-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:22:19 -!- dpwright_ [~daniel@li413-20.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:43 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-48-148.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:26:39 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.243.210.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:40 If I want readline-like support in my app, is linedit the way to go? 20:26:57 jcazeved_ [~jcazevedo@116.250.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298F39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:08 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl21-90-210.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:29:14 -!- drmeister1 [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:20 Regarding type inference I'm reading now a good reading found on planet.lisp.org : http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/TInference.html . Thanks Planet Lisp !! 20:29:24 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-181-238.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:33 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-222-48-148.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:16 -!- jcazeved_ [~jcazevedo@116.250.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:25:45 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 21:25:45 -!- names: ccl-logbot mooglenorph mishoo sie jtza8 s0ber drmeister1 Denommus joneshf-laptop Bike Codynyx araujo kanwei bananagram davazp brown` zacts jcazevedo Myk267 miql kennyd Dalek_Baldwin Nisstyre-laptop p_l youlysses lduros ehu rszeno yacks Vutral harish dtm AeroNotix fsvehla madsy iLogical [SLB] nialo Adlai pavelpenev nilsi zacharias spacefrogg Shinmera mal_ aw|rattler em sykopomp ejohnson urandom__ nahiluhmot nug700 talas clog yeltzooo oGMo bege gemelen Odin- 21:25:45 -!- names: wyan sklr H4ns rfgpfeiffer felipe j_king rabite_ gabot tomaw antifuchs guther_ billstclair hugod peccu1 joshe jdz epsylon` Zhivago SeanTAllen dotemacs_ TML acieroid _schulte_ tvaalen ZombieChicken Fade sad0ur_ veer aerique DrPete j0ni johs nightfly__ mutley89 dented42 kbtr vi1 gendl bolcselo vsync Posterdati Nshag drewc anaumov spratap ivan tychoish KingNato_ kirin` em-bee justinmcp_ smull_ weirdo ozzloy copec jhj sshirokov sbryant mtd schoppenhauer 21:25:45 -!- names: ineiros_ rvirding j`ey arrdem SHODAN zbigniew fmu quasisane sfa fds cpt_nemo pw_ ThePhoeron redline6561 stopbit surrounder elliottcable tensorpudding xrq theBlackDragon rotty_ _if aoh Natch dRbiG adeht yan_ fe[nl]ix hiredman ether0_ Neptu rvchangue scode jsnell_ dlowe fasta capisce Xach cross The_third_man foom sytse ferada_ ft pok ``Erik cods brendyn photex notori0us NimeshNeema cmatei maxm- Tanami_ nicdev arrsim tankrim ianmcorvidae Subfusc madnificent 21:25:45 -!- names: pjb Nisstyre rtoym wchun ogamita nitefli Praise Yamazaki1kun gko dan64 gor[e] PuffTheMagic abeaumont cmbntr nitro_idiot_ oconnore Tordek keepishop ch077179 naryl ivan\ Ralt z0d tali713 Amadiro loke ered walter|r minion MoALTz igorw djinni` pkhuong luzie flip214_ nuba emma freiksenet ChibaPet _8david spacefrogg^ Adeon yroeht pchrist asedeno JPeterson varjag PuercoPop xpoqp samskulls tkd eichelbart_ Guest98748 derrida mathrick ktx abend Euthy` milosn neena_ 21:25:46 -!- names: jasom antoszka impulse- joast TristamWrk vhost- stokachu runningskull phadthai jayne arbscht_ macrobat Vivitron newcup __main__ Khisanth expez mcsontos bjorkintosh saeftl xristos ezakimak quackv4 sirdancealo2 p_nathan kyl koisoke miah mrSpec Thra11 rpgsimmaster prxq Borbus bitonic cmm cibs ahoops karupanerura BlastHardcheese peterhil cyphase_ stardiviner ecraven Gooder``` Mon_Ouie prip froggey gf3 ragnul_ Patzy cYmen_ felideon ramus n0vember monotrichous65 21:25:46 -!- names: d11wtq CrazyEddy moore33 easye jaimef LiamH luis bobbysmith0071 ignas paddymahoney santana daimrod segv- Tristam syrinx_ natechan davorb_ brighid_ tcr2 Labrit DrForr__ victor_lowther rootzlevel adelgado karswell` specbot balle samebchase |3b| wormphlegm EvW1 zvrba callen_ sigjuice rk[impos1er] Anarch tessier arkx_ brucem deliciousrobots_ foreignFunction gensym dim strobegen kliph ckoch786 naeg rking1 kanru eli kpreid mattrepl AntiSpamMeta patrickwonders 21:25:46 -!- names: yrk` edgar-rft ASau joe9_ Krystof housel` galdor Mandus lusory_ ryankarason smazga eak Tarential aw|sovereign otwieracz b1rkh0ff leo2007 21:26:16 mooglenorph: hi! 21:27:13 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-108-48-74-4.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:27:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-108-48-74-4.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:13 sykopomp: hey! 21:28:25 mooglenorph: I'm not sure what you mean by equivalence class :( 21:28:44 sykopomp: just, objects that have a slot that compares equal 21:28:56 sykopomp: but it's a particular slot 21:29:07 -!- dtm [~dtm@adsl-69-110-3-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:29:08 remove-if/remove-if-not with :key? 21:29:51 ehu` [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:30:08 (remove-if #'identity '(1 2 3) :key #'evenp) 21:30:10 -!- ehu` [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:34 dtm [~dtm@adsl-69-110-3-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:34 sykopomp: so list and it has objects with slot y, and I want to pick out every subset such that slot y is the same in that subset of objects and apply a function to that set, and then return the result along with the value of y associated with each result 21:31:00 sykopomp: there's probably some databases terminology for this that I don't know because I'm awful at databases. maybe aggregate-by or something? 21:31:07 ehu` [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:32:02 mooglenorph: ah, that sounds like a map/filter 21:32:10 which you can do in one pass with reduce 21:32:24 or you can just use LOOP, depending on what you like best 21:32:47 sykopomp: ohhh right, god, I can aggregate aggressively in LOOP, I forgot that 21:33:24 you're just looking to filter by a single value/test of the slot y, right? 21:33:38 if you want more, you'll need to probably do some trick involving sort+reduce 21:33:47 yeah 21:35:29 redscare [~Adium@18.189.50.44] has joined #lisp 21:39:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:25 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abnz63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 21:40:28 protist [~protist@202.36.179.100] has joined #lisp 21:40:58 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.189.50.44] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:41:29 -!- protist [~protist@202.36.179.100] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:22 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d122151.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:58 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:37 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-120-146-70-87.lns9.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:51:19 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:47 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:41 -!- kanru [~kanru@66.207.208.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:58:52 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-48-148.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:01:55 erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has joined #lisp 22:02:11 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:02:50 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:03 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:03:15 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:29 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.82.90.210] has joined #lisp 22:03:58 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-48-148.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:05:31 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:44 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:05:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:08:53 Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined #lisp 22:09:37 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:11:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:14:42 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:43 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:54 -!- aw|rattler [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:17:15 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:35 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-120-146-70-87.lns9.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:20:44 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.133.181] has joined #lisp 22:23:08 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.82.90.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:01 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:41 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:52 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:51 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 22:31:58 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:33:00 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.133.181] has left #lisp 22:33:05 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 22:33:07 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:38:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:39:29 solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 22:39:29 -!- solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:45 solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 22:40:48 tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has joined #lisp 22:41:41 phadthai: Sorry, just saw your message from earlier in the backlog: No, unfrotunately I was not the one working on a web game. Good to know about WITH-ACCESSORS vs. SLOT-VALUE, though. 22:43:07 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:48:46 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:49:52 -!- drmeister1 [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:45 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:50:54 -!- erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has quit [Quit: erikc] 22:54:54 ejbs [~user@h-138-224.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 22:55:13 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:19 What does it mean/what does it imply when I use Hunchentoot behind Apache with mod_lisp? 22:55:30 drmeister1 [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:58 guiambros [~guiambros@z65-50-88-217.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:25 Like, what kind of advantages do I get from doing that? 22:56:49 ejbs: you can mix static content served with apache with dynamic content from lisp 22:57:05 ejbs: you can have multiple hunchentoot images sharing the same http port 22:58:32 jasom: Alright. So, considering the first advantage I should be able to gain some performance at the static parts of my website? 22:58:40 no clue 22:58:50 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-216-94.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:08 Oh welp. Thanks anyway 22:59:10 apache basically acts as a reverse proxy in this setup 22:59:11 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-68-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:16 which has some advantages 23:00:21 agumonkey [~agu@126.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:25 Hm.. Like what? The ones you mentioned above? 23:00:25 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 23:01:06 yeah; also if you think apache is less likely to have bugs in its http support, or you want to run a php or cgi application 23:01:40 nginx seems to be more popular than apache these days though, and cliki claims mod_lisp is ported to it as well 23:01:46 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:31 then again, why would you use mod_lisp instead of regular HTTP reverse proxying? 23:03:56 miql [~miql@ip24-56-50-178.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:07 pkhuong: that's a good question; I've never used mod_lisp... 23:08:51 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 So did the "Looper OS" project ever even publish any code, or? 23:10:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:10:48 you mean loper? 23:10:59 Bike: Yup, sorry. 23:11:08 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:19 -!- sie [~root@unaffiliated/sie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:11:33 is that an actual OS project? i got the impression it was just a blog. 23:11:56 -!- santana [~santana@201-167-0-181-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:12:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:14:28 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d122151.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:14:53 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-234-140.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:05 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 Damn. 23:15:10 Bike: The about page led me to believe so, with sentences like "Skrode remains in cryostasis, and awaits the completion of Loper  an effort to (re)create a sane computing environment. 23:15:10 23:15:10 ". 23:15:55 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 23:16:07 ejbs: suffer not the false lisp to live 23:16:25 youlysses: glancing through the blog it seems to be a lot of blather about bitcoins. i wouldn't hold your breath 23:16:52 Bike: Sorry, I can't parse that sentence. /not native English speaker 23:17:23 just a joke, don't mind me 23:17:44 Bike: Oh, I'm pretty sure it was doomed to be dead on arival. That being said, I was curious if they published *any* actual code. :-P 23:19:21 They should try to make the SparrowOS guy help them. 23:19:24 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.204.59] has joined #lisp 23:20:14 ejbs: It's now "TempleOS". And say what you will about Terry and his OS, but at least he has his system published and it's not *all* just talk. 23:21:16 youlysses: Hehe, sure, I agree. Still, I find the man and his OS fascinating. 23:22:12 ejbs: From what I've seen, Terry seems to have little, to no intrest in Lisp. :-P 23:24:19 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-119-74.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:21 youlysses: Well, no one has directly asked him. We could show him the Julia Ecklar song, maybe that'll convince him of Lisp's divine nature? 23:24:47 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-119-74.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:52 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:bd7d:e9be:cd51:dc6c] has joined #lisp 23:26:14 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:14 -!- d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:28:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:28:55 ejbs: Or seeing that there is, at least realative to the song, a stated divine nature that is not directly related to the Christian mythos, he rejects the notion more-so than ever before? :-P It's hard to predict how Terry will act. 23:29:11 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:31:21 perhaps impossible to predict, considering that his holy texts are randomly generated 23:33:56 *youlysses* wonders if schizophrena is genetically linked or not. I have an uncle that falls into this category. 23:34:13 -!- ejbs [~user@h-138-224.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:34:40 -!- callen_ is now known as callen 23:34:47 youlysses: too wide of a disease to fall into such classification easily 23:34:50 -!- callen [~callen@198.199.80.102] has quit [Changing host] 23:34:50 callen [~callen@unaffiliated/callen] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 there could be inclinations to it from genetic sources, though 23:35:10 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:36:15 p_l: Well I know it's more common on the whole, if you're left-handed and about half of my Mom side is... so just a little curious. :-P 23:36:51 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.138.89.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:46 even that could be nurture instead of nature (i.e. the feeling of being different leading to basis of some schizophrenic stuff) 23:38:47 dopamine 23:39:08 p_l: To what I heard, it's due, or at-least expected it is due on a higher-level because the hemispheres are more apt to communicate with eachother in ways that are not nesscarily intended. 23:39:25 what a crock of bull 23:39:32 the channel has really gone downhill lately 23:39:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:39:48 weirdo: Proof? 23:40:04 youlysses, internet know-it-alls arguing about mental illness 23:40:07 weirdo: I call that "lazy day" 23:41:14 and of course, iterative pose optimization won't work as expected 23:41:34 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:41:45 youlysses: haven't read papers in psychology for some time (it's interesting area, but too much memorization for me), so can't exactly go an hunt whether there is anything peer-reviewed about such expectations 23:42:07 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:42:25 human brain is very adaptive, so I rather doubt that. 23:42:36 -!- mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:42:38 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:19 -!- xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:22 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af501c0.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:45:04 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:46:07 xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has joined #lisp 23:46:19 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50b7a.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:28 p_l: I can't find any paper or even just abstract on it, just the "news" articles that are based around it. But it seems that the gene that is responsible for left-handnesses is believed to be too in-part responsible "brain symmetry", what part of the brain does what, and it a relatively large (compared to right handed) part of the population, this seems to result in a number of disorders like schizo. 23:48:57 youlysses: ahh. "news". Sorry but no cigar :) 23:49:39 p_l, did you read the "news" about dsm to be replaced in indeterminate future? 23:49:40 p_l: I'm searching. I just don't realize why one wouldn't link directly to the abstract or full paper ... 23:50:04 p_l, is it credible, or just some scieno crap? 23:50:17 ASau` [~user@p5797EE5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:56 weirdo: the truth as its known to me is more that DSM-V was supposed to be finalized and published, and instead got rejected 23:51:47 Why are there buisnesses that sell online copies of scientfic papers....? 23:52:59 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-48-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 or maybe other psychological phenotypes associated with left-handedness are functionally unrelated to schizophrenia but make it more likely to be brought to the attention of a doctor and diagnosed 23:53:25 Dalek_Baldwin: related to my "nurture" suggestion :) 23:53:49 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F6D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:08 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 23:54:53 yes, but nature vs. nurture doesn't provide a clear separation of other ontological and epistemological questions 23:55:37 what does this have to do with lisp? 23:56:04 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 23:56:44 lispers love deep questions! 23:57:27 -!- drmeister1 [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:47 zRecursive [~czsq888@118.112.157.6] has joined #lisp 23:57:51 jasom: Let's conduct a survey to see if Lispers are more likely to be left-handed and/or have some mental-disorder compared to the rest of the programming population! :-I 23:58:06 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.204.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:58:18 drmeister1 [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:21 btw #lisp, anything cool happening since my work shut down my lisp project and dropped me back into python? I'm out of the loop 23:58:55 Dalek_Baldwin: there's supposed to be a presentation about CL on mobile platforms during ECLM 23:59:14 Dalek_Baldwin: Someone wrote yet-another-web-server in CL, called "Wookie" after their job... :-I 23:59:18 *DOG 23:59:42 -!- dtm [~dtm@adsl-69-110-3-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]