00:00:07 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.76] has joined #lisp 00:01:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@19.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:01:50 Bike [~Glossina@71-34-72-185.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-72-185.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:17 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:03:29 Bike [~Glossina@71-34-72-185.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:53 -!- hugod [~user@38.108.74.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:07:25 solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 00:07:43 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.176.79] has quit [Quit: rme] 00:08:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-72-185.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:09:27 Bike [~Glossina@71-34-72-185.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:06 tigranes [~tigranes@192.69.209.60] has joined #lisp 00:13:30 Hi! Is it acceptable to use (eval-when) to evaluate a form inside a function that is pretty much a constant? 00:13:54 tigranes: eval-when only works toplevel. try load-time-value. 00:15:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-135-42.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:15:37 Bike: Excellent, didn't know about that special form. Thanks a lot! 00:16:48 I suppose, though, that the compiler probably is smart enough to evaluate (length "stringliteral") at compile time, isn't it? 00:17:30 maybe, maybe not. 00:17:31 Trenif [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:18:13 Fair enough :) 00:18:16 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:51 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 00:20:22 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.161.240] has joined #lisp 00:20:47 aw|sovereign_ [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 00:20:54 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 00:20:56 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:57 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rthlihesbzutflrj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:20:57 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:20:57 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-dcujchutyytduhie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:20:57 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:20:57 -!- Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:20:57 -!- aw|sovereign [~aw@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:00 aerique_ [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 -!- spacefrogg^ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:06 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-uvfcwehondyimziq] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:06 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:06 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:07 guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-qqzyjzeseaqgfnal] has joined #lisp 00:21:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:38 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.178] has joined #lisp 00:21:40 rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 00:21:46 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 00:21:48 Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:59 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fsonahbfjkbyumce] has joined #lisp 00:22:23 spacefrogg^ [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has joined #lisp 00:22:41 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-arfdvfwfztugcqqo] has joined #lisp 00:27:13 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:55 -!- nan- [~user@46.197.112.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:31:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-108-48-74-4.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:33:41 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 00:33:41 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 00:33:41 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 00:37:57 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:50 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:25 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@44.212.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 00:44:30 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:44:59 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-249.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:26 tigranes: it's not obvious at all that the compiler is able to determine that the length of the string is constant. 00:45:59 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:46:03 tigranes: #\" is a reader macro. It could be implemented by allocating an adjustable vector, or a vector with a fill-pointer, to read efficiently small strings. 00:46:49 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:46:53 pjb: If sequence is a vector with a fill pointer, the active length as specified by the fill pointer is returned. <-- fill-pointer shouldn't matter 00:47:00 tigranes: so if the implementation doesn't anything special to flag literal strings, they may be of variable length with no way for the implementation to remember it's of a constant length. 00:47:28 jasom: it matters, because the fill-pointer can be changed even if the vector is not adjustable. 00:48:04 pjb: ah 00:48:43 hugod [~user@76.65.140.64] has joined #lisp 00:51:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.26.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:54:13 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:55 -!- organometallica [~bigsqueez@bigsqueeze.scs.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:57:25 pjb: obviously if it doesn't know an object came from a string literal, than it may not be able to determine that the length is constant. But if it does (or if it creates SIMPLE-STRINGs from literals) than it can do it pretty easily 00:57:45 sad0ur [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 00:57:52 Yes. 00:58:39 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:37 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:01:08 d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has joined #lisp 01:02:30 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f483.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:40 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:05:29 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c3c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:06:42 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:07:04 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:05 agumonkey [~agu@19.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:05 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-27-7.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:03 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.76] has joined #lisp 01:09:11 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.76] has quit [Client Quit] 01:10:53 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11:39 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.241.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:53 ckoch786___ [~quassel@98.103.82.66] has joined #lisp 01:14:12 -!- ckoch786_ [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:17:45 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:24 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:50 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.33.209] has joined #lisp 01:28:23 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:15 ckoch786_ [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:41 -!- ckoch786___ [~quassel@98.103.82.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:32:03 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:21 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-147-121.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:33:58 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:39:57 pjb 01:42:12 pjb: (sorry for late response) Oh, didn't consider that #\" is a reader macro and not some specialized unchangeable syntax denoting literal strings. Thanks for the explanation! 01:42:59 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-241-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:43:02 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@76-205-169-48.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:44:01 arguably everything in CL are reader macros 01:44:25 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:45:05 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-147-121.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 01:46:19 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:37 the fact it's a reader macro isn't really relevant, #. (make-string 9 :initial-element #\a) is just as constant as far as the compiler's concerned 01:48:22 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:48:56 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:58 Yes, what I was saying is that "toto" can be instanciated by (make-array 16 :fill-pointer 0 :element-type 'character). 01:49:32 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:41 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:49:42 But indeed, if it's a vector of fixed length, then data flow analysis can determine it. 01:50:01 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-241-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:54:08 -!- Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@116.238.217.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:55:08 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-9-108.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:18 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:57:12 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-9-108.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:57:26 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:57:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:58:17 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:43 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:58:51 organometallica [~bigsqueez@c-50-148-124-125.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:20 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 02:01:07 Oh, okay, so your point was that one cannot be certain that a compiler will instantiate "toto" as a string constant, and therefore cannot be certain it will know to treat (length "toto") as a constant either. 02:02:00 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:13 it might also not constant fold LENGTH calls anyway. 02:02:24 if you want you could check. probably visible in DISASSEMBLE output. 02:04:02 -!- axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:04:39 *tigranes* is constantly amazed by just how _interactive_ REPL is. 02:05:15 rm0130 [~rm0130@118.81.23.53] has joined #lisp 02:11:13 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-110-113.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:11:38 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@192.69.209.60] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:12:13 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 02:12:13 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 02:12:13 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 02:12:53 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:23 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:25 *patrickwonders* nods at tigranes 02:19:28 Bike_ 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03:20:06 I've noticed that the library command-line-arguments does not work in SBCL since recently (a few months?). Now it just returns an empty list. 03:20:10 Known problem? 03:20:48 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:25:44 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:27:12 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:36 loke_: I dont know, but you may also try the CLON library for that. 03:27:46 sellout-: thanks 03:27:54 I'll give it a shot 03:30:17 whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:52 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 03:40:38 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.102.66.208] has joined #lisp 03:41:45 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-243-210.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:45 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-243-210.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:42:05 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:44:08 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:44:09 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 03:45:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has joined #lisp 03:45:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has quit [Changing host] 03:45:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:46:38 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 03:47:30 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 03:51:54 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:16 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-9-108.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:34 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-9-108.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:14 -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:59:13 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:48 sellout-: Hmm, CLON doesn't seem to be able to parse command lines 04:00:56 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:01:20 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:19 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-27-7.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:03:34 loke_: Are you sure you got the right CLON? http://www.didierverna.net/blog/index.php?post/2010/08/31/Clon%3A-the-Command-Line-Options-Nuker-library-for-Common-Lisp 04:03:36 loke_, on debian is a package called cl-getopt 04:04:21 homepage http://files.b9.com/getopt/ 04:04:28 -!- TML [~joey@unaffiliated/tml] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:01 codygman [47fcd533@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.252.213.51] has joined #lisp 04:08:10 sellout-: I quickloaded "clon", which is a cl "cron" workalike. 04:09:33 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 04:09:52 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 04:10:23 Is it the dvlsoft one? 04:10:28 The real command lines one,I mean. 04:10:33 yeah 04:10:35 found it. thanks 04:10:45 this is something that should be in UIOP, yes? 04:11:04 I think uiop is mostly just what fare wants in uiop? 04:11:37 The thing is, there is already (uiop/image:command-line-arguments) 04:11:54 could that be it? 04:12:36 TML [~joey@unaffiliated/tml] has joined #lisp 04:13:02 the name sounds like it just grabs them without parsing them, but i wouldn't know. 04:13:43 yah 04:13:46 FARE, where are you? 04:14:59 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:10 loke_: Fare has abandoned Common Lisp for  well, Im not sure what ;) 04:15:23 sellout-: what? 04:15:31 so you could say he's a... sellout? 04:15:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:53 He didnt sell out  he bought in. 04:16:06 except in that he's doing the opposite of selling out, in that he used to work for a common lisp company but now doesn't 04:16:20 He changed jobs? 04:17:12 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:28 I believe he's still doing common lisp. 04:17:47 But the term would be 'bought out' I believe. 04:19:07 You mean he was bought out. He would then be the one selling out, no? 04:19:15 -!- organometallica [~bigsqueez@c-50-148-124-125.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:20:14 loke_: Hes still doing CL at Google/ITA for the time being, but around August or so hes moving to NY, and is currently looking for a job there. 04:20:25 oh 04:20:38 Google doesnn't have any openings in NY? I thought they opened a development centre there? 04:21:01 loke_: Well, the ITA part is the only part doing CL, and theyre in Cambridge. 04:21:15 oh 04:24:22 https://twitter.com/fare <- there you go. 04:30:08 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:44 *loke_* is trying to hire people 04:36:49 I'm not in NYC though 04:37:14 benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-218-217.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:18 loke_: Lisp people? And where? 04:37:32 sellout-: Sorry, not much Lisp (just a little bit) 04:37:35 Singapore 04:37:41 Ah. 04:37:53 loke_: Im not looking  just curious. 04:38:08 *sellout-* is very happy at Clozure. 04:39:02 Well, if you know anyone who would be willing to move to Singapore, and would be OK with looking through an enormous messy code base full of C, C++, Java, Python, Groovy, Javascript and a few other languages, let me know :[-) 04:39:25 santana [~santana@201-167-0-181-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has joined #lisp 04:39:39 What's a decent pay in the US by the way? (I'm just curious to know if we're competitive) 04:40:26 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:41:40 -!- benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-218-217.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:43:51 It depends on where you live. 04:44:38 What's the company in singapore, btw? 04:44:49 Zhivago: Murex 04:45:04 Zhivago: well, let's say NYC for the sake of it 04:45:27 Ah, acturialish -- that makes sense. 04:45:49 loke_: I think there are sites that give you that kind of info  Im not sure I could come up with reasonable amounts in different markets. 04:45:56 Named after the predatory sea snail, I presume. 04:46:08 Or rather, Im pretty sure I couldnt. 04:46:25 -!- axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:46:38 sellout-: ok 04:47:03 Hmm 04:47:07 NYC seems to pay pretty well 04:47:17 144k USD 04:47:33 Android developer, 142k 04:47:36 They have to. I think 40k in NYC is pretty much starving student level. 04:48:00 What you need to consider is pay in terms of multiples of cost of living, I suspect. 04:48:01 So 144k is average, eh? 04:48:14 so a good developer will demand closer to 200k? 04:48:29 And then they expect bonus on top of that? 04:48:46 Apparantly the average is 96k. 04:49:13 But that's probably for a php programmer. 04:49:20 hmm 04:49:30 so how much would you expect to pay in tax? 04:49:32 -!- stardiviner [~quassel@122.236.242.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:48 I don't know. You'll have to do some research. 04:50:09 I suspect that 96k in NY doesn't leave you with much in the bank at the end of the year. 04:50:31 wow. 04:50:41 In NYC you only pay up to 3.6% in tax!? 04:50:49 And I thought the 10% here was low 04:50:59 I suspect that you're reading that incorrectly. 04:51:14 I'm reading "New York City Income Tax Rates" 04:51:14 Americans have some weird system where they get taxed by the state and the federation. 04:51:15 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.91.218] has joined #lisp 04:51:15 loke_: City income tax? Sales tax? 04:51:31 loke_: Thats the city tax  you still pay state and federal in addition. 04:51:40 Ah, and city. :) 04:51:45 hmm 04:51:51 so, you'll actually pay more? 04:52:06 loke_: Im sure most software devs pay over 30%. 04:52:12 Work out renumeration based on how much savings you expect per year, imho. 04:52:48 That's probably the only important number for international hires. 04:53:11 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:54:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has joined #lisp 04:54:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has quit [Changing host] 04:54:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:54:55 I see 04:56:08 So a job where you'd be able to save, say, 30k+ per year would be considered OK? 04:56:12 USD that is 04:56:34 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE0024369f3a03-CM00194792a698.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:46 stardiviner [~quassel@218.74.176.7] has joined #lisp 04:58:32 it certainly depends on the person that you're trying to hire. 04:58:52 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:55 Hmm, this is for support people 04:59:02 (that number) 05:00:32 *H4ns* is not a support person and would not know if support persons like to save $30k per year 05:01:02 yeah 05:01:16 OK, at least I have some kind of idea of the US thinking now ;-) 05:01:36 i'm in europe, in berlin specifically. 05:01:50 Ah, right. 05:01:57 here, people don't earn enough to save $30k per year, in general. 05:02:07 I know. Save in Sweden where I'm from too 05:02:11 Save=Same 05:02:24 But Germany has similar kinds of pension system as Sweden, yes? 05:02:42 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 05:03:40 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@66.85.140.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:04:05 we're moving more towards private insurance, but there is a public system as well, yes. 05:04:06 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 05:04:20 not really that useful to foreigners coming to work here, though. 05:04:32 Yeah, if you're after US people you'll need to talk to some US people. :) 05:04:39 I've been away from Sweden for quite some time, but friends have told me that the swedish pension system has become much worse than it used to be. Seems the same happens all over Europe. 05:05:08 You could ask 'Chris' on freenode -- he used to work in Singapore. 05:05:18 He might have an idea about salary. 05:05:44 Zhivago: I know all about Singapore salary. But since we're not successful finding the right people here, we need to look overseas. 05:05:51 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:46 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-135-197-102.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:08:25 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:39 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:26 theEXA [~textual@218.25.129.207] has joined #lisp 05:10:14 -!- theEXA [~textual@218.25.129.207] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:10:48 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:37 hah, I wish I made enough to save 30k a year (US here) 05:20:43 teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.203] has joined #lisp 05:22:07 -!- santana [~santana@201-167-0-181-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 05:25:41 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:02 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:28:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:32:03 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:32:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:32:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:32:14 loke_: that's a fundamental property of pension systems run by central planners 05:34:15 gmcastil [~user@207-224-44-98.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:45 benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-218-217.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:44 A well designed pension system reduces the pressure to save, which reduces wage pressure. 05:37:04 I think that once you consider currency as a distributed deferred resource distribution system economics becomes much simpler. 05:38:47 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:49:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.91.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:55:38 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:58:01 Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@180.173.111.162] has joined #lisp 05:59:47 nostoi [~nostoi@96.Red-79-155-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:28 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:11 -!- benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-218-217.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 06:02:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:04:12 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:17 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has joined #lisp 06:05:20 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:06:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:10:55 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@96.Red-79-155-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 06:17:00 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 06:20:59 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 06:25:29 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.33.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:26:07 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:29:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:30:13 -!- stardiviner [~quassel@218.74.176.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:20 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:03 I would like to rename a file removing the file-extension, if I try this with RENAME-FILE it seems to maintain the file extension 06:32:30 eg. (rename-file "foo.bar" "quux") => quux.bar 06:32:55 -!- d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:10 Guthur: try (rename-file "foo.bar" (make-pathname :name "quux" :type nil)) 06:33:41 bitonic [~user@176.27.229.121] has joined #lisp 06:34:00 H4ns: unfortunately no go there either 06:34:19 Gooder [~user@192.200.155.64] has joined #lisp 06:34:19 Guthur: gotta love pathnames :) 06:34:34 this shouldn't be so difficult, *grumble* *grumble* 06:35:23 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:35:55 Guthur: what implementation is that? 06:37:29 H4ns: LW 6.1.1 06:39:23 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.160.90] has joined #lisp 06:39:23 implementation portability is not an issue but I would like to avoid the command line if possible as this needs to run on Linux and Windows 06:40:57 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.160.90] has quit [Client Quit] 06:41:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has joined #lisp 06:41:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has quit [Changing host] 06:41:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 i can't figure out a portable way to do it either. 06:42:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:43:06 it's so crazy it's almost funny 06:43:49 I can do it with cl-fad:copy-file 06:44:08 of course, but that is not the same thing. 06:44:14 nope 06:44:36 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 06:44:51 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d122130.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:59 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d122130.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 06:48:57 it is very possible that there actually is no portable way, given that rename-file always performs a merge-pathnames of the new and the old pathname and is specified to use any component from the old pathname that is nil in the new pathname. 06:48:57 that is really sad. 06:49:48 ...extremely so 06:50:21 but as you are working with a commercial implementation, you may well ask your vendor how to do it. 06:51:10 might as well I suppose, not holding out much hope though 06:51:37 do you have bad experience with lispworks support? 06:52:44 lifeng [~lifeng@61.190.87.60] has joined #lisp 06:53:45 no, there support is good, just didn't think the implemenation would do it. But I have been proven wrong... 06:53:51 (rename-file "~/foo.csv" (make-pathname :defaults "foo" :type :unspecific)) 06:54:07 my colleague managed to get it 06:54:26 that seems ridiculous. 06:54:35 is there a good model of what pathname support should be like somewhere? 06:55:41 damn. i tried almost that but used :unspecified instead of :unspecific :( 06:55:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:56:53 I think that pathnames should probably only be used for a virtual lisp filesystem. 06:57:00 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:57:33 Otherwise pathstrings might be much easier to deal with. 06:58:51 -!- whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:00 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:59:20 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:20 neena [~neena@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:56 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:03:10 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host86.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:03:49 H4ns: cheers for the effort though, glory was nearly yours, hehe 07:06:10 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:06:29 H4ns: so what you're saying is that it would be really difficult to have something like fad:rename-file which would *just work* across multiple implementations? 07:08:53 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.66.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:09:08 ehu [~ehu@gateway05.m3-connect.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:39 whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:36 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 07:11:08 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.194.95] has joined #lisp 07:11:51 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:13:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:14:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-80-131.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 07:14:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-80-131.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 07:14:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 -!- Watcher7 is now known as Watcher7|off 07:15:34 d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has joined #lisp 07:16:15 -!- felideon [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:16:52 felideon [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has joined #lisp 07:18:31 -!- ehu [~ehu@gateway05.m3-connect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:20:51 Guthur: Common Lisp doesn't standardize random file system access. It only standardizes access to lisp files, stored on a host file system by the given implementation (not even by another implementation). It's just pure luck that you can access files not created by the current implementation. 07:21:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:22:45 -!- rm0130 [~rm0130@118.81.23.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:24:15 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-221-115.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:25 same: The only reason that you think it ought not be is that everyone uses posix these days. :) 07:26:46 same: Fortunately posix namestrings work pretty well on posix based implementations. 07:28:52 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:29:26 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 07:29:40 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 07:29:57 yeah, I/O got much, much simpler these days 07:29:58 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:32:16 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 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08:56:28 stardiviner [~quassel@218.74.176.7] has joined #lisp 08:59:59 Ramirez57 [~Ramirez57@c-174-54-148-204.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:04:43 guaqua` [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 09:05:05 Is there a way to delete instances in CLISP? 09:05:50 Ramirez57: not explicitly. instances are garbage collected when there is no remaining reference to them. 09:06:04 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:10 H4ns: So it is handled automatically? 09:06:27 Ramirez57: and note that common lisp is abbreviated as cl. clisp is an implementation of cl 09:06:56 Ramirez57: yes. garbage collection happens automatically and you cannot control the precise moment when an object is collected and deleted. 09:07:37 Ramirez57: thus, you cannot use instance life time for resource management like you can in c++ or other languages which do not have automatic memory management. 09:07:38 pierpa`` [~user@95.234.221.161] has joined #lisp 09:07:48 cross_ [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:19 H4ns: Thanks for the info :) 09:09:25 kfoo__ [~kfoo@cable-86-56-52-189.cust.telecolumbus.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 _8david [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:45 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 09:11:50 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 09:12:05 rpgsimmaster_ [~rpgsimmas@system00.packetstability.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:28 DrPete_ [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 09:13:41 _if_ [~if@94-76-243-32.static.as29550.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:44 Ramirez57: of course there also are implementation-specific finalizer support though, but as previously mentioned there's no way to reliably know when they'll be run... another common approach in CL when something must be explicitely finalized is using UNWIND-PROTECT as part of WITH- macros, see for instance 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Anywhere.] 09:43:19 stardiviner [~quassel@218.74.176.7] has joined #lisp 09:44:11 nilsi [~nilsi@109.58.148.128.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:44:26 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:51 agumonkey [~agu@19.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:43 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 09:50:44 nan- [~user@46.197.112.126] has joined #lisp 09:50:51 spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:57:30 Hello, why do compilers allow (\= numa numb)? I am guessing it is escape char ((\< 3 5) works so it is) but still i don't understand the reasoning, is it about enabling some functionality? You can guess i was using it instead of /= :) 09:57:38 d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:57:55 <|3b|> yeah, \ is escape char 09:58:12 <|3b|> \a is same as |a|, which is a symbol named "a" 09:58:39 a\ b\ c 09:59:46 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:18 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 10:00:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-9.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 10:01:13 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 10:01:58 maybe SBCL could add a style-warning for unnecessary escape characters 10:03:25 I found this one but not sure where else  was doing this >< 10:03:27 <|3b|> not sure it would be a good idea in general, since 'necessary' depends on r eader setting 10:03:59 *|3b|* probably wouldn't object to complaining about \= though, since that one is could be easily confused 10:04:11 <|3b|> (and doesn't depend on read base or case folding) 10:04:49 Joreji [~thomas@79-106.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:40 I have somewhere on my disk a patch xof wrote for style-warning on unnecessary ::s 10:07:57 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-194.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:09:37 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.193.66.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:09:39 bitonic [~user@dyn1217-194.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:18:57 |3b|: couldn't reader setting be caught by somehow making the style-warning check for \ reader-macro? 10:20:22 *|3b|* meant more that \A is useless under default settings, but matters if read-base is more than 10. or reader isn't set to uppercase, etc 10:23:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.157] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 10:23:55 -!- yusup [~yusup@42.120.72.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-110-113.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:29:17 wrong symbols won't leave me alone. on paper i was using mathematical equivelent of <= >= instead of these two and the damn teacher was discarding whole answer just for this reason... cruel 10:30:32 davazp [~user@178.167.194.16.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 10:30:52 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 10:31:08 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 10:31:10 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 10:31:13 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 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has joined #lisp 12:43:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-115-2.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:46:22 -!- agumonkey [~agu@19.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:46:37 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:47:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:48:27 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: gravitation] 12:48:58 eee [~user@c50-26-74-15.amrlcmtk01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:49 gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 12:53:09 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:12 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 12:55:48 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.68] has joined #lisp 12:55:48 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:01 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:57:01 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 12:57:01 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:57:06 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:57:15 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:59:39 I ran into a problem implementing TAGBODY/GO and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM and I'm wondering if anyone has insight into how to deal with it. 12:59:39 drmeister, memo from pjb: eval-when :execute is for when LOADing the source file (or evaluating the form at the REPL). :load-toplevel is for when LOADing the fasl file. 13:00:18 I'm writing a CL compiler with LLVM as the backend. 13:00:44 milkpost_ [~dec@192.133.84.6] has joined #lisp 13:01:22 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:25 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:01:30 LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 13:01:43 (tagbody (funcall #'(lambda () (go A))) (print "Skip") A (print "Hi")) 13:01:56 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:02:17 ... not the most inventive use of a tagbody, but it gets the point across. 13:02:46 This creates two functions, one for the tagbody, the other contains the lambda. I need the (go A) in the inner function to jump to the A tag in the outer function. 13:03:01 I have a perfectly good solution to the problem using exception handing. 13:03:21 Didn't Baker do a paper on this stuff? 13:03:23 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:32 the main difficulty of go/return is cleanup 13:03:36 The GO throws a C++ exception of class "GoException" and the tagbody would catch it, pull out the tag index and jump to it. 13:03:50 Cleanup is handled by the exception handling machinery. 13:04:27 bitonic [~user@dyn1217-17.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:04:46 It all works perfectly except for two problems 1) It's really, really slow. What should ideally be a single jump turns into a lot of table look ups under the exception handling hood. 13:04:52 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:05:39 2) There appears to be a bug in LLVM or the low level exception handling machinery that causes exception handling to fail when I compile the code offline but works perfectly when it is JITted. 13:06:09 Can you use setjmp/longjmp instead? 13:06:15 There is someone in the LLVM channel who wrote this stuff who is helping me track the problem down. 13:06:31 -!- milkpost_ [~dec@192.133.84.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:06:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:06:44 nyef: Bingo - so I implemented a setjmp/longjmp approach. 13:07:07 I just did it last night and I did it wrong. 13:07:08 But yeah, table based unwind is for debugging use and "exceptional situations", meaning that it doesn't have to be especially FAST because it's not supposed to happen OFTEN. 13:07:35 exceptions are when I gave up on implementing direct calls into C++ 13:07:42 nyefy: Right - but I thought I would get something working that way and I could always improve it later. 13:07:52 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.174.39.237] has joined #lisp 13:07:52 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.174.39.237] has quit [Changing host] 13:07:52 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 13:07:55 And it does work - except for this weird issue. 13:08:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:04 Ok, back to the setjmp/longjmp approach. 13:08:14 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 13:08:33 setjmp sets up a 5-word setjmp_buf that I stored on the stack in the outer function. 13:08:55 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:04 How do I get that to the inner function(s)? Pass as argument? Move to heap? 13:10:32 ejbs [~user@h-89-172.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 block and tagbody are lexical, can't you handle the control flow at the compile-time? 13:10:35 Close over it? 13:10:41 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-17.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:52 Close over it - Hmmm. 13:11:02 bitonic [~user@dyn1217-17.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:11:27 stassats: What do you mean by handle the control flow at compile-time. I think I am - aren't I? 13:12:51 Oh, and you might note that GOing to a tag for a TAGBODY whose extent has ended is Bad. As in "don't cross the streams" bad. 13:12:56 When I have something like the one-liner I posted above, it creates two functions outer-with-tagbody, inner-with-go. 13:13:18 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:13:45 nyef: Yup, and I don't do that here - but I could if I returned the inner function - is that what you mean? 13:13:47 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:c32:4579:cdf:cc53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:14:07 -!- ejbs [~user@h-89-172.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 13:14:17 ejbs [~user@h-89-172.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:14:27 drmeister: compiled as simple jumps 13:14:47 and when there's something to clean up, jumped to clean up routines 13:14:50 Right. If the inner function escapes, then you have a potential problem. 13:14:58 I wasn't here at the beginning, but can't drmeister use catch/throw, as they're dynamic I mean (and the problem seems to be that tagbody is lexical) 13:15:01 stassats: I'd love to do simple jumps. Those would be fast and simple. How do I do that? 13:15:53 The problem with simple jumps and cleanup is integrating with the platform unwind mechanism to perform any cleanups that are required by alien code. 13:15:57 ejbs: No problem - I implemented a solution with exception handling but exception handling is slow and has a nasty low level bug that I uncovered. 13:16:05 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:16:06 non-table-based setjmp isn't going to work for C++ interop. 13:16:24 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:31 *nyef* remembers dealing with all of this in the context of SBCL/Win32 back in the day. 13:17:32 I do keep track of everything that needs cleanup in my lexical environments and I can generate cleanup code. 13:18:15 pkhuong: Could you explain more deeply what "non-table-based setjmp" is? 13:18:24 Sure, now you just need to cover finding all of the dynamic environments, plus dealing with C++ interop... 13:18:55 nyef: Closing over the setjmp_buf is sounding better and better. 13:19:13 In LLVM setjmp/longjmp interoperate with exception handling. 13:19:37 So all cleanup clauses get called between the longjmp and the receiving setjmp. 13:19:38 drmeister: You still lose if it doesn't do the... yeah, that. And you only save the search phase of the exception handling dance. 13:19:53 Right, the slow I can live with right now. 13:20:00 organometallica [~bigsqueez@bigsqueeze.scs.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 13:20:22 nyef: ... crossing the streams bad, eh?... I'm tempted now to see how far the explosion will go :D 13:20:28 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:32 And you might still run into that low-level bug... 13:21:03 p_l|omoikane: Depends on the system, but if it WORKED it could be used to implement call/cc. 13:21:09 nyef: I don't think so. We tracked the low-level bug down pretty far. 13:21:46 nyef: heh. So kinda like playing with fluoride chemistry in search of rocket fuel ;D 13:21:55 and, iirc, the search phase is dominated by stack walking. So yeah, setjmp is either almost as slow as exceptions, or C++ hostile. 13:21:58 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:58 The exception handling tables aren't being set up properly and my code calls Unwind_Resume from an instruction-pointer address that wasn't within any exception handling code range for the function. 13:21:58 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-17.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:33 I haven't looked at the code for setjmp/longjmp so yeah - I'm hoping it doesn't use those exception-tables. 13:23:27 pkhuong: Really, longjmp does stack walking - (sigh). 13:23:27 pkhuong: No, it would skip the search phase because it knows where to unwind to, but then it STILL does a stack-walk to do the unwind, but you're still saving a stack-walk. 13:23:47 nyef: That's what I was hoping for. longjmp knows where it needs to go. 13:23:55 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 It's just that you only have to walk the stack once instead of twice. 13:24:41 The unwind might run into this bug. 13:24:56 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has joined #lisp 13:26:36 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:04 So right now - closing over the setjmp_buf looks like the best short term solution - and then hope for the best with the exception handling unwind. 13:27:07 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p54BEDA2E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:27:12 and I doubt LLVM has a pass to convert lexically-visible longjmp; that's not a common pattern in C. That'll have to be handled CL-side. 13:27:46 nyef: ah, true.. there are two stack walks. 13:27:57 pkhuong: I'm pretty sure it won't. 13:28:32 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-51-245.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-51-245.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:28:32 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:30:17 protist [~protist@156.172.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 13:31:08 drmeister: From the symptoms, you probably ARE still going to get bit by that low-level bug. 13:32:03 nyef: What was the Brown paper you mentioned above? 13:32:33 nyef: I'm starting to think you are correct about getting bit again. 13:33:20 How do other CL's deal with this? 13:33:49 tagbody/go, block/return-from, catch/throw? 13:33:52 The Henry Baker paper? 13:34:12 It's about implementing each of tagbody/go, block/return-from and catch/throw in terms of the other two. 13:34:21 nyef: Maybe, you just mentioned: "Didn't Baker do a paper on this stuff?" 13:34:42 jhj [~jhj@unaffiliated/jhj] has joined #lisp 13:35:10 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 13:35:14 Oh, so I still have the problem of implementing two of the three. 13:35:50 drmeister: Lisp in small pieces has a chapter on continuations, catch/throw and stuff like that 13:36:07 No, any one of the three. 13:36:10 ejbs: I have that book - I'll take a look at it again. 13:37:13 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-160-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:17 nyef: I see - I"m essentially doing that, implementing tagbody/go and block/return-from with exception handling which is essentially catch/throw - I'm not sure 13:37:17 bbl - train just came in. 13:38:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:14 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.68] has joined #lisp 13:39:47 I'm having the damnedest time trying to get the cl+ssl tests to work 13:41:00 I'm back - did I miss anything? 13:41:06 no 13:42:10 rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 13:42:20 So how does SBCL implement tagbody/go? 13:42:54 I guess I should ask that In #sbcl. 13:43:45 SBCL implements it in terms of closing over something that can be passed to a primitive operation called "UNWIND". 13:44:25 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 And that brings us to the complicated questions of how stack unwinding and non-local exits work in SBCL. 13:44:50 nyef: That sounds very familiar. 13:45:11 -!- Tanami [~carnage@150.101.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:45:21 SBCL's UNWIND is implemented in terms of "catch blocks" and "unwind-protect blocks". 13:45:35 If you have the time, I'm all ears. Should we move this to #sbcl? 13:45:43 We can if you want. 13:46:00 -!- stardiviner [~quassel@218.74.176.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:06 drmeister: /act 13:46:22 I'd love to, now that I've gotten as far as I have I think I could learn quickly. 13:47:33 milkpost_ [~dec@192.133.84.6] has joined #lisp 13:48:55 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:50:00 runningskull [~runningsk@li77-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:37 klrr [~klrr@88.129.155.209] has joined #lisp 13:53:13 what does ` mean and what does ~ mean in clojure/lisp? do i need them if i gonna implement macros in my lisp implementation or is it just special to clojure? 13:53:35 klrr: this channel is about common lisp. 13:53:52 oh i thought it was about lisp sry! 13:54:10 The backquote is a fairly common construct for templated list construction. I have no idea about ~, as it's probably clojure-specifc, and we don't do clojure here. 13:55:25 from a first look ~ seems to fill the same purpose in clojure as , in lisp 13:58:17 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:59:42 Greetings! 13:59:51 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:01:12 did I miss something cool? 14:01:45 I joined the channel. It was awe inspiring. 14:02:07 Smugness overload 14:02:20 oh, and drmeister has a new CL implementation that interoperates with C++ 14:02:30 that sounds pretty cool 14:02:46 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.85.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:47 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@61.190.87.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:04:53 -!- ckoch786_ [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:04:55 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 14:05:52 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:49 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:21 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 I was always wondering is there a way to write multilined docstrings with indents? Like this (defun func () "This is func""Haha" ...) 14:08:40 What do you mean, of course you can indent your docstrings. 14:08:41 #.(concatenate 'string "This is func" "Haha" ...) 14:09:00 (defun func () "This is funcHaha" ...) 14:09:03 Well, not quite like that, as you'd also need to add the newlines, but... 14:09:20 Up to your docstring extractor to reformat them. 14:09:27 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:09:38 Or even define a reformat-docstring function... 14:09:52 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:52 The #. reader macro is amazingly useful at times, though. 14:10:07 yeah, #. seems to be quite useful 14:10:08 For one-shot things, yes. Otherwise write your own reader macro. 14:10:10 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 14:10:38 ok, thanks a lot for ideas 14:10:41 And the combination #.` is... Words fail me. 14:11:37 dbh [~user@211.25.202.11] has joined #lisp 14:11:48 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:08 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:12:44 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 14:12:48 -!- thatJasonSmith [~vader@ip68-102-56-198.ks.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:13:05 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:44 -!- sepi`` [~user@2001:41d0:8:e341::1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:44 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 14:15:31 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:13 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-61-35.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:28 -!- klrr [~klrr@88.129.155.209] has left #lisp 14:16:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:28 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:19:24 hi 14:21:09 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:23:11 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:54 davazp [~user@92.251.130.115.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 14:28:01 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:29 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:43 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:13 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:32:53 -!- ejbs [~user@h-89-172.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:33:50 <_8david> naming question: ISTR that there was a well-established name for the pattern of setting (not binding!) a global variable for the extent of a macro body, then undoing that assignment afterwards. But I can't remember. What is it called? 14:34:34 _8david: shallow binding. 14:35:21 _8david: or trailers/trailing if you're from the CP/prolog world. 14:35:25 I know that pattern... but there really shouldn't be many reasons to use it. 14:35:31 <_8david> oh yeah, in terms of implementation, sure. I was more thinking of good names for a user-land macro that uses shallow binding in an unsafe manner. 14:35:37 <_8david> Clojure calls it with-redefs, but that's the name I'm trying to avoid. 14:36:22 _8david: letf? 14:36:26 seems like a macro should be named for what it does, not an implementation detail 14:37:02 I have WITH-FUNCTION-REDEFINITION-CONTEXT for it, actually, but what that does is open a context which tracks occurances of a macro that does (SETF FDEFINITION)... 14:37:07 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:37:17 <_8david> nyef: Well, I haven't needed this sort of thing myself in the last 16 years of lisp coding, but I'm not tasked with removing this macro, I'm tasked with improving it, so... 14:37:18 dlowe: the implementation tends to leak, though. 14:38:09 The three cases I can think of for wanting to use SETF + UWP are to potentially affect the global value, to save on TLS slot allocation, and to save on binding stack usage. 14:39:43 <_8david> pkhuong: sounds good, thanks! http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3168928070841171@naggum.no.html 14:40:02 ckoch786_ [~quassel@72.240.52.190] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 Ah, right, case four, affecting a PLACE rather than a symbol. 14:40:56 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-201-127.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.174.39.237] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.174.39.237] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:37 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:00 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:45:06 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:47:38 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:47:41 is there a good data structure in common lisp that supports appending in O(1) time, or would i have to roll my own? 14:47:59 protist: hashtable? 14:48:02 i have heard of t-lists 14:48:07 protist: extendable vectors. 14:48:17 pkhuong: sounds good, thank you :) 14:48:21 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 hitecnologys: i wanted to support operations similar to lists 14:49:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has joined #lisp 14:49:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.57.72.71] has quit [Changing host] 14:49:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 protist: then use vectors, like pkhuong said 14:49:43 hitecnologys: every once in a while i would like to mapcan recursively without feeling guilty 14:50:09 -!- dbh [~user@211.25.202.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:15 protist: you can use maphash if you want to iterate over hashtable 14:52:39 mapcan <= 14:53:27 protist: you can write function to mapcan over hashtables using maphash 14:53:54 protist: that's what I meant by use maphash 14:53:58 yeah, i guess...i'll look into the vectors :) 14:54:16 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 14:54:22 protist: CL:PUSH is O(1) 14:55:26 i want the other side 14:55:31 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:55:38 that would be O(n) on a normal list 14:56:09 you can keep the tail cons around to append if you must 14:56:17 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:56:19 dlowe: it's O(1) until you decide to get element from list end (first value you pushed) 14:56:23 protist: sometimes you can pretend that the beginning of the list is its end 14:56:24 nkhodyunya [~user@181.208.73.94.ip.orionnet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:56:46 I've found that it can be useful to just reverse the algorithm instead of the data structure 14:56:53 pkhuong: just not when recursively mapcan'ing 14:56:59 hitecnologys: yes, or any other random element. 14:57:02 pkhuong: you end up joining both ends 14:57:13 pkhuong: and Lisp has to walk the list over and over 14:57:28 Is there any way to view lisp documentation in REPL session like I do in clujure(e.g. (doc function-name))? 14:57:44 nkhodyunya: (documentation 'function-name) 14:57:59 dlowe: thanks 14:58:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:58:13 nkhodyunya: (documentation 'function-name 'function) 14:58:15 that is 14:58:25 i wonder a bit about what lisp would be like if it had doubly-linked-lists 14:58:43 even more memory hungry 14:58:46 -!- miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:58:48 that would give a lot more freedom to list-based algs 14:59:15 nkhodyunya: btw, if you use slime you can easily lookup for clhs record with C-c C-d h 14:59:17 protist: DEFSTRUCT is only a couple keystrokes away 14:59:24 except you couldn't have shared sub-structure any more? 14:59:24 those 64-bit pointers are hard on the memory footprint these days 15:00:15 i would think that numbers that grow are memory hungry 15:00:32 it has to know how large the numbers are....so it has to remember that 15:00:37 among other things 15:00:56 most numbers we deal with are in fixnum range 15:00:58 these data types probably have a bunch of flags and information clinging everywhere 15:01:01 capisce: (defstruct ( (:type list)) ) 15:01:31 dlowe: do you declare fixnum a lot?....if not then maybe you shouldn't be worried about doubly-linked-lists :) 15:02:06 dlowe: i don't think doubly-linked-lists are necesarilly a good idea...so i am arguing the case :P 15:02:33 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 a lot of the performance problems of normal lists is because of the single-linkage 15:03:09 nope 15:03:10 not everything, i know 15:03:17 and not having a pointer to the end 15:03:17 what performance problems? 15:03:24 protist: I don't have to declare fixnums for them to be used, but changing every cons in a lisp implementation to have three fields is pretty big 15:03:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:04:16 jdz: (append '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) '(8)) ....it has to walk all the way down the first list to find its end before it appends 15:04:21 http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/dll.lisp 15:04:33 jdz: because it doesn't know where the end is without walking 15:04:33 protist: then don't do it 15:04:53 dlowe: true 15:04:53 protist: a good solution to the problem is not using list-based algorithms. 15:04:57 My sbcl implementation has about a million cons objects taking up 16MB. Adding another field would make it 24MB, and that's not including the structure that would have to be duplicated 15:04:58 protist: you can use structure to store pointer to end of list if you want fast append 15:05:09 hitecnologys: yep, like t-lists 15:05:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:05:23 protist: you can define your own #\( reader macro and shadow cl:append to define your onw append implemented using com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dll. 15:05:30 So what's the problem? 15:05:36 hitecnologys: but then you cant cdr from the other end....you need double-linkage for that 15:06:03 protist: of you can use circular list and some custom cdr, car and stuff 15:06:32 pjb: i know i can define my own append...but without a different data structure, you can't squeeze better performance out of appending lists 15:06:44 protist: yes, of course. So what? 15:07:07 dlowe: 32MB, a CONS is the size of the allocation granularity, so you'd double the size adding a single field, and adding a fourth field would be "free" because you'd just be taking up padding. 15:07:11 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:32 hitecnologys: it has to be doubly linked to be able to have something like (defun reversecdr (this) (butlast this)) 15:07:39 hitecnologys: and have it run in O(1) 15:07:55 dlowe: drawback, however, is that altering the structure of a CONS would be fairly invasive, and you might end up putting a header on it, which would affect a lot of things. 15:07:57 Granted, I have 24GB in this machine, so it's not that noticable until you start running multiple processes 15:08:14 nyef: actually, clisp has a compilation option to add a field to each cons cell. 15:08:20 hitecnologys: if you had it as a dynamically growing mod-circular array, you could probably get good performance 15:08:27 hitecnologys: and avoid extra data :) 15:08:34 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 15:08:52 protist: yeah, double linked lists look pretty cool 15:09:08 hitecnologys: and then (nthcdr thing) would always be O(1) as well 15:09:08 *dlowe* manages to get good performance anyway. 15:09:08 Even better: circular double linked lists. 15:09:31 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 15:09:32 *hitecnologys* joins pjb side 15:09:38 circular double linked skip lists 15:09:50 pjb: no need for double linkage once you have a dynamic array :) 15:10:06 Double linked hashtabled curcular list 15:10:09 pjb: as long as you maintain the pointer to front and back 15:10:21 pointers* 15:10:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:10:46 since when dynamic arrays have O(1) append? :) 15:10:50 No, no, double-linked hashtabled circular balanced binary trees 15:10:51 maybe i will write up a data structure tomorrow, it would be a good way to practice vectors :D 15:11:41 nan-: ever since you grow them at the proper rate 15:12:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:12:06 if you grow it, it is no longer O1 15:12:15 I think I should play with these lists some time 15:12:39 nan-: O(1) and O(7) are the same thing....constant factors of eachother 15:12:47 nan-: it can be amortized O(1). 15:12:53 nan-: O(kn) == O(n) normally 15:12:59 as long as you grow it by a geometric factor. 15:13:09 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 15:13:12 pjb: yep :) 15:14:16 i just like using lists all the time :P....and i don't to suffer algorithmically 15:14:22 don't want* 15:14:43 protist: push* nreverse is O(n). 15:15:43 pjb: yes :) 15:15:57 pjb: i am assuming push* is like push? 15:16:34 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-221-128-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 15:16:40 it's push push push (n times). 15:17:01 postfix * is kleene 0-n repeatition operator. 15:18:00 (push (nreverse thing)) is O(length thing) so O(n) 15:18:21 explain what you were doing with push* 15:18:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:18:35 (loop with result = '() for i in '(1 2 3) do (push i result) finally (return (nreverse result))) 15:18:51 This is the standard way to append to a list in O(1). 15:18:56 using push which is O(1). 15:19:03 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:19:12 nreverse is faster than reverse? 15:19:22 yes: it doesn't need to allocate a copy. 15:19:33 Since push produces a fresh list, we can modify it. 15:19:44 nice 15:19:52 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.224.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 But note that an implementation can do (defun nreverse (&rest args) (apply (function reverse) args)) 15:20:19 and similarly for the other n* functions. 15:20:20 pjb: what thing has to push n times O(n)....then it has to walk the length of the list to nreverse it O(n)....i don't see any gain there 15:20:55 protist: if you add n elements at the end, it's O(n). So indeed, there's no gain, we're just O(n). 15:21:08 pjb: ok then we are on the same page :) 15:21:21 The point is that there's no loss. 15:21:37 pjb: compared to? 15:22:00 compared to keeping a pointer to the end of the list, and inserting the elements directly there. 15:23:00 pjb: i could just change the nil at the end of list A to point to the begining of list B to (append A B) .... O(1) 15:23:36 pjb: i guess that is destructive? 15:23:48 Yes. Now go write programs. :-) 15:23:58 :) 15:27:38 pjb: would make a sweet nconc, though :P 15:28:06 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 pjb: you could recursively nconc then and have huge algorithmic gain over recursively appending 15:29:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:30:03 pjb: and it wouldn't matter that you are nconcing if they are fresh sublists made by the function 15:32:19 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:35:09 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-85-60.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:27 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:42 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit 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So, the values (safety 2) (space 1) (speed 2) aren't just a suggested optimization policy, it's required for the compiler to not compile into self-recursion. That's nice. :) 19:09:14 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 well, it would be nicer to be able to change things relatively freely 19:12:57 logand`` [~user@g231114202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:28 agumonkey [~agu@101.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:36 -!- logand` [~user@g225181112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:14:01 josemanuel [~josemanue@71.165.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:18:41 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:20:12 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:22:09 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:23:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@101.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:37 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 19:29:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:31:53 davazp [~user@178.167.139.43.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 19:32:14 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 19:33:24 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:36:21 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:53 nha [~prefect@koln-5d81a02d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:14 ehu [~ehu@gateway05.m3-connect.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:43 AlasAkteivias [bdc0ecfe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.192.236.254] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 -!- AlasAkteivias [bdc0ecfe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.192.236.254] has left #lisp 19:47:27 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d81a02d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:40 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 19:49:41 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:49:49 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:49:54 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@227.Red-88-25-116.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:52:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:53:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:58:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:59:44 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:59:44 powersurge [~powersurg@69.64.6.186] has joined #lisp 20:00:02 I seem to remember there being a search engine for looking up lisp documentation, but I'm not able to find it 20:00:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:00:12 anyone know what I'm talking about and what the url for it is? 20:00:20 l1sp.org is one 20:00:43 that's more "lookup" and less "search" 20:00:52 lispdoc.com was more search i think, but that's down 20:00:55 there used to be lispdoc buc it seems to have fallen victim to the great server shift 20:01:06 it's not what I was thinking of but it's close enough to be useful 20:01:13 thanks 20:03:10 lonjil [~lonjil@c213-89-76-39.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:04:17 powersurge: doing !lisp in duckduckgo basically does a lispdoc search 20:04:19 powersurge: Was it http://quickdocs.org 20:04:35 (not really search either) 20:06:29 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:38 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:08:56 Watcher7 [~w@silly.tabby.cat] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:09:27 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:09:50 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-224-43.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-147-121.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.74.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:11 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-236-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:12:25 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:13:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-98.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:38 -!- eee [~user@c50-26-74-15.amrlcmtk01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 20:15:17 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 20:15:40 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:15:46 -!- pjb is now known as Guest2670 20:15:47 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298E12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:16:05 no it wasn't sellout- 20:16:09 powersurge: http://cliki.net/ has a search box too. 20:16:11 -!- Guest2670 is now known as pjb` 20:16:12 samebchase: that's useful too, thanks 20:16:21 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 20:16:29 this stuff is good enough to replace what I needed 20:18:46 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:20:40 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:50 nha [~prefect@koln-5d81a02d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-221-128-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:23:47 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:09 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:24 jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 pnpuff [~YBCO@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:26:04 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.198.219] has joined #lisp 20:27:09 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:48 agumonkey [~agu@101.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:04 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:07 -!- ehu [~ehu@gateway05.m3-connect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:33:20 -!- gvz [gvz@78-60-33-10.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 20:33:42 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.139.43.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:34:04 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|gone 20:34:31 samebchase: nice, makes me wonder if its time to put duckgogo in as my default search engine in chrome! 20:34:47 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-118-29.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:40:02 -!- lonjil is now known as lonjil`` 20:40:11 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:00 samebchase: lispdoc is down, so !lisp can't be used. 20:44:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:45:50 huh, I thought yegg fixed that to point to l1sp.org 20:46:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-32.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:46:09 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 20:46:49 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:48:19 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 20:50:25 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.92.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:40 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:55 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:13 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 FYI - boston lisp gather this evening: 6pm at http://www.cambrew.com/ 20:57:12 And on that note, I'm heading out for that now, so that I can make sure that I arrive early. 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[~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:57:29 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.139.43.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:00 Is there a easy way to get a random fixnum in the range of most-negative-fixnum to most-positive-fixnum? 22:01:24 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.198.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:01:45 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 22:02:02 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: Branoc!] 22:04:34 That's woefully underspecified. I guess you mean something like (+ (random (- m-p-f m-n-f)) m-n-f) 22:05:03 and there's an off by one in the argument to random. 22:05:30 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@220.166.238.159] has left #lisp 22:06:59 I mean 'a random fixnum of any possible value' 22:07:26 'random' seems to only give possible output values 22:07:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@101.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:44 -!- d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:09:15 nightfly__: (if (= 0 (random 2)) (- (random most-positive-fixnum)) (random most-positive-fixnum)) is this good enough? 22:09:30 Hm, wait. 22:09:46 Yeah, no. Ignore that 22:10:06 mycomu [simontifo@41.249.234.19] has joined #lisp 22:10:53 ejbs: off by one and doesn't take into account the fact that 0 = -0 (and, relatedly, that most-negative-fixnum is larger in magnitude than m-p-f). 22:11:17 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:53 pkhuong: Exactly, which is why I told him to ignore that 22:11:59 -!- mycomu [simontifo@41.249.234.19] has left #lisp 22:12:35 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-72-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:13:02 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 22:13:39 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:13:41 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d122243.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:14:06 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d122243.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:19 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:37 -!- LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:15:52 *positive output. I guess what's easy is good enough for this though, I think if I really need it I can do some oring and shifting. 22:16:00 -!- ckoch786_ [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:39 ckoch786___ [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 Why doesn't random number generators do negative numbers anyway? Is that just an inherent property of them? Is it really hard to do it? 22:16:50 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@71.165.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 22:17:26 you don't need them for a lot of applications 22:17:45 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:17:59 and all you need to do is take a 0-n range generator and subtract something, anyway 22:18:42 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host67.190-138-117.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:19:48 Yeah sure, that's true. But is it really such a pain to implement it? 22:20:59 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:21:22 Off to Google, I think 22:21:24 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:21:33 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:37 I just told you an implementation strategy :P 22:21:39 <|3b|> it is trivial, but extra work and a more complicated API for the cases where it isn't needed 22:22:43 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:11 <|3b|> hard part is making it give evenly distributed random #s from an arbitrary range in the first place (most just give 0.0..1.0 or some fixed # of bits), not that that is all that hard once you know you need to do it 22:23:15 Bike: Oh right haha, now I feel stupid. 22:23:19 axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:52 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:04 if you're interested in how random number generators work, TAOCP 2 is fun. or you could look up your implementation's implementation (assuming it doesn't just poll OS mechanisms) 22:24:20 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:33 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f483.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:35 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:11 Bike: M-. to the rescue, eh? Also, thanks, I don't have any TAOCP books close at hand so I'll just scour the internet for resources (I guess I could 'borrow' TAOCP, but whatever) 22:26:54 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:55 -!- jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:09 jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has joined #lisp 22:27:14 ejbs: most RNGs generate evenly distributed blocks of N random bits 22:27:28 ejbs: where N is dependent on the implementation and the algorithm 22:28:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:27 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:23 ejbs: IIRC sbcl uses MT19937 to generate these blocks, and then it has functions on top of that to turn them into integers or floats 22:30:19 er ignore the float part; i guess that's not in the spec 22:30:33 -!- ejbs [~user@h-139-133.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:30:46 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.208.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:31:18 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:34:49 <|3b|> RANDOM generates floats if the limit is a float 22:35:00 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 22:37:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-218-217.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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