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quit [Quit: bye] 02:21:03 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 02:23:19 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:50 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:01 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.241.9.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:27 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 02:44:18 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:44:18 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 02:44:18 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 02:50:07 good afternoon 02:52:30 how do i search in a multidimensional array? (more specifically in one row, starting at a specific column to the end of the row) 02:53:00 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:54:13 i can't see how to use search or find for that, so i could either extract the part i want to search as a vector, or just walk the elements 02:54:13 aref.. 02:54:35 yes, walking the elements with aref 02:54:36 you can use search/find if you use a displaced array 02:58:29 linuxos [~linuxos@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:40 ok, that's what i thought, thanks 02:58:55 what is the difference between primitive functions and special operators? 03:00:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:06:35 what are primitive functions? 03:07:13 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07:42 axion [~axion@66.231.120.220] has joined #lisp 03:09:03 a function written in the low level language 03:09:15 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro/html_node/Primitive-Functions.html 03:09:30 but i don't get what the difference between those and special ops 03:10:17 special operators probably don't resolve arguments the same way 03:10:43 where primative functions are probably implemented in c but evaluate arguments like normal elisp functions 03:11:04 yeah that makes sense 03:11:33 like quote .. not resolving the argument 03:12:00 linuxos: ask #emacs. 03:13:18 bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:37 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:19:51 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 03:20:04 -!- linuxos [~linuxos@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: linuxos] 03:20:44 -!- tesuji_ [~tesuji@mnhm-4d012e2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:23:47 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:41 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:26:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:47 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:29:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:29:42 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:34 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:16 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:19 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:48:48 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has left #lisp 03:58:55 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:09 WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 04:09:06 I just posted the output from CLinch tutorial 5 on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXnh3e1G_k&feature=youtu.be I'll be posting the text tutorial soon. 04:10:45 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:17 -!- axion [~axion@66.231.120.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:23 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.225.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:13:27 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:40 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:54 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:27:20 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:27:21 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:31:23 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 04:34:23 -!- miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:40:55 tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:16 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-249-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:51:44 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:54:43 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:28 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 05:15:49 Is there a reason to use SEARCH with :test #'equalp when comparing strings? 05:16:04 Like here: https://www.assembla.com/code/mcandre/subversion/nodes/169/common-lisp/hello.lisp 05:16:49 <|3b|> case insensitive? 05:16:52 It seems like the default #'eql test will work just fine, unless you want case-insensitive comparison, and then it seems #'char-equal would be more efficient 05:17:15 sdemarre [~serge@45.146-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:18:43 zRecursive [~czsq888@221.237.95.53] has joined #lisp 05:19:09 |3b|: I see, thanks 05:22:08 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 05:22:48 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:27:55 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:28:40 -!- whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:29:50 whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:30 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 05:34:11 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:42:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:51:58 pnpuff [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 05:55:31 lifeng [~lifeng@61.190.87.60] has joined #lisp 05:57:17 tigranes: why do you test if the name is a substring of one of the arguments? 05:57:37 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has joined #lisp 06:00:25 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:00:38 -!- capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:16 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:01:27 capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 06:02:09 _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has joined #lisp 06:02:49 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 06:03:56 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:04:44 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 06:05:16 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:10:25 schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has joined #lisp 06:12:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-228.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:12:48 pjb: It's not my code, but from what I can figure out, it's looking for the name of the script passed as the first command line argument in the shebang line (the second $0) 06:14:22 pjb: I don't quite see the purpose of doing a MEMBER when you can just (search (pathname-name *load-truename*) (second args)). Unless the number of the argument is implementation-dependant. 06:14:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.129] has joined #lisp 06:14:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.129] has quit [Changing host] 06:14:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:16:56 (The overall goal being to call (hello-main) only when the script is executed from the command line, not when the file is LOAD'ed by another CL file) 06:19:31 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 06:27:55 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 06:28:15 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 06:30:50 pnpuff_ [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:33:48 -!- pnpuff [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:34:58 -!- pnpuff_ [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:01 teggi [~teggi@123.21.172.81] has joined #lisp 06:44:03 pnpuff [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:44:45 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:33 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.162.53] has joined #lisp 06:47:16 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:49 functions (maybe better procedures) are funcallable objects, instead funcallable objects are not always maps (so higher-order functions) nor first-order functions. Is right of not? if not why? -thx- 06:54:40 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-178-140-78-173.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 06:57:14 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-178-140-78-173.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:00 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.162.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:07:37 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.162.53] has joined #lisp 07:08:32 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:09:00 -!- schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:02 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:13:33 sorry, but is Python less functional than Lisp? 07:14:04 that seems like a mostly meaningless question 07:14:38 Bike: I'm curious... 07:15:00 but your answer is a meaningless answer even 07:15:04 common lisp is not purely functional but multi-paradigm 07:15:20 no, it means quite specifically that your question isn't well-posed. 07:17:20 ok, I retry: Is Lisp functional? 07:17:33 Still pretty meaningless, but let's say no. 07:17:53 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@221.237.95.53] has left #lisp 07:17:55 your lisp code could be written to be functional 07:20:17 setmeaway2 [oosool3@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 07:23:48 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-015-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:55 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:29:33 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:29:40 phadthai: maybe is meaningless, but I can not do a function level programming with my lisp code... :( 07:31:16 hmm it's scheme that they used, but the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs lectures used fp and recursive examples a lot 07:31:36 the book and lectures are free 07:34:00 cl macros should normally also be functional as they may be expanded multiple times by the compiler, so they could serve as cl fp code examples also 07:36:47 Yay 07:36:55 *pranavrc* just made and deployed his first cl project 07:38:51 phadthai: ok , but in your "fp" exist always named variable or not? 07:38:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:04 *variables 07:39:51 phadthai: Isn't use of recursion discouraged in Common Lisp because it isn't portable? 07:39:55 If you're talking about Backus's thing, why are you calling it "functional programming" 07:39:57 pnpuff: I think it's not generally a problem if the side effects are controlled in scope, i.e. you could use loop as part of a macro or list iterator 07:39:58 aeth: tail recursion 07:40:32 aeth: what is not portable is expecting that the compiler implements tail recursion as Bike said, so you can use recursion, but on some implementations it'll use more stack 07:42:13 Yes, which ruins a lot of Scheme algorithms unless I'm mistaken. 07:42:35 it's not too hard to translate named let into loops, usually. 07:42:41 because of the powerful and elegant loop macro, iteration is often explicitely used as well when recursion has no real advantage 07:43:37 for example there are even functional powers :-) 07:44:27 Does loop count as functional? I have more experience with Scheme than Lisp at the moment. 07:44:33 ops ... iterated functions is better ... 07:44:34 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0020aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:44 And, yes, it seems like most of the proper tail recursion in Lisp is in looping. 07:44:47 a functional is not a function 07:47:54 anyway "functional" is even an adjective... but depends on the "scope" 07:51:35 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:53:25 -!- whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:54:13 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host86.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:54:45 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55:22 Yes, my question is if the loop macro in Common Lisp violates the basic functional programming rules. i.e. What goes on internally when you type something like this? (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (expt i 2)) 07:57:43 jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:58:09 agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:10 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 08:00:55 aeth: are the "functional programming rules" to witch you refer to the "lambda calculus rules" or not? 08:03:39 aeth: that could be implemented as (mapcar (lambda (i) (expt i 2)) (iota 1 10)), hypothetically. 08:04:23 would be nice apply the reduction rules to your expression, untill you obtain the normal form of the expression you past. 08:04:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:05:30 Bike: Yes, but does that mean it should be explicitly done like that? I thought that hiding common things behind macros (that other people write) was encouraged? 08:06:08 "common things"? 08:06:12 aeth: i'm just saying nothing about that loop is 'non-functional' per se. 08:06:52 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d137125.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:10 pnpuff: It's 4 am. 08:07:14 Where I am at least. 08:07:20 so is encouraged yhe tacit programming? 08:14:44 http://anonscm.debian.org/darcs/pkg-common-lisp/cl-alexandria/numbers.lisp 08:14:59 yes? 08:15:01 Bike: Looks like Alexandria implements iota with loop. 08:15:42 and? 08:16:05 ... iota is a "little thing" and not a "common thing" :-) 08:17:28 Bike: I thought it was just interesting how you talked about implementing a version of loop (well, a tiny part of a huge macro) with iota, when a version of iota's implemented with loop. 08:18:08 Maybe I'm just weird though. 08:18:32 aeth: (loop for n from x to y collect form) is obviously equipowerful with (mapcar (lambda (n) form) (iota x y)) 08:18:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 but loop is 'not one iota' 08:18:57 https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/loop.lisp 08:18:57 ...or not? 08:19:05 Loop is 2030 lines in sbcl. 08:19:29 i'm not sure what your point is 08:19:34 ops ... so is decisely 'not a iota'! 08:19:45 Bike: that was a reply to pnpuff 08:20:20 pnpuff is half markov chain 08:22:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 08:23:15 Bike: what is a markov chain? 08:24:05 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:51 -!- ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:43 adeht: Bike is able only to criticize, even if he don't know the answer to a question. 08:30:44 ...and his reasoning is not constructive 08:31:08 adeht: his reasoning is meaningless :) 08:32:24 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.24.223] has joined #lisp 08:33:12 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDBB0EA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:18 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5DC62B76.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:09 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5DC62F23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:37:57 You mean aeth. 08:40:32 Bike: what is a markov chain? 08:41:55 something you can use to produce text that looks a bit like a provided corpus. 08:43:21 Bike: do you like more random chains or the Chaitin's constant Omega? 08:44:27 Bike: make me some other example... what do you means with "a provided corpus"? Are you maybe a writer? 08:46:23 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.194.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:47:11 benkard [~benkard@ppp-88-217-80-24.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:29 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.143] has joined #lisp 08:48:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.129] has joined #lisp 08:48:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.129] has quit [Changing host] 08:48:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:48:41 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-164-175-225.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: night] 08:50:29 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:50:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 08:54:39 Markov chains aren't specifically for generating text 08:55:57 The algorithm has been adopted for textual markov chains, though. Wikipedia has an article on the Markov chain model 08:57:13 pnpuff: basically, the next word in a sentence depends on N previous words, so you can build a probabilistic model from a corpus (a pool of text). 08:58:06 Indecipherable: I do not know what Bike meant... but maybe him know it. 08:58:36 ... maybe neither him ... 08:59:48 ... Bike knew and daimrod elaborated further. Also, I suggested a look at Wikipedia 09:01:01 Indecipherable: can you prove your assertion? 09:04:06 Indecipherable: can you prove "I know that I know nothing". A know-all 09:04:14 can't prove it... 09:04:31 ... 09:04:45 ... :-) 09:05:31 My job was to help, not write you a thesis on philosophy 09:08:17 Indecipherable: the only exential axiom to help truly someone else is "know that you know nothing". 09:13:05 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:14:43 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:17:33 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:17:35 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:58 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 09:26:16 Sarigity [~Sarigity@ip68-226-103-74.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:09 nilsi [~nilsi@c-5eeaaa6c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:10 hiroakip [~hiroaki@pD9F99C79.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:30 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 09:29:09 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:32:40 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:37:58 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. 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peer] 11:57:34 dbh [~dbh@182.55.3.19] has joined #lisp 11:58:02 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-217-140.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:09 hello. is it possible with sbcl to create one of sbcl's socket-objects from a file descriptor which was loaded by an ffi-call? 11:58:14 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:58:56 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-35-245.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:01:44 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:02:23 (make-instance 'sb-bsd-sockets:inet-socket :type :stream :protocol :tcp :descriptor 5) 12:03:12 fe[nl]ix: thx. 12:08:38 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:53 LiamH [~none@96.231.225.69] has joined #lisp 12:09:32 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:11:59 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jkwvrxmkppuudblk] has joined #lisp 12:12:54 sykopomp 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anyone tried using CL with blender in any way? 12:52:48 to make cocktails? 12:53:34 nice one 12:54:15 -!- Mandus_ [~aasmundo@128.39.36.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:43 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.106.90] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 so i have to learn python >.> 12:55:24 it's not as bad as it sounds 12:55:30 pnpuff_ [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 12:55:36 just imagine if you had to learn C++ or Java instead 12:55:58 so cant use CL in any way? 12:57:00 theos: you could try cl-python http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ 12:58:05 theos: why would you want to? 12:58:22 aha! thanks daimrod . will try 12:58:38 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-dev] 12:58:39 cl-python doesn't really help you here in any way 12:59:00 -!- pnpuff [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:04 stassats i was hoping to use CL scripts/plugins with blender. and not have to learn python 12:59:38 some sort of bridge 12:59:48 you don't really have to learn python, it's really easy, especially for scripting 12:59:49 -!- agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:55 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 milkpost [~dec@192.133.84.6] has joined #lisp 13:00:39 well, i think i am just been lazy. i should learn python. its always good to know everything! 13:02:10 -!- pnpuff_ is now known as pnpuff 13:03:06 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-71-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:03:16 thanks :) 13:03:21 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:05:03 -!- milkpost [~dec@192.133.84.6] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:56 dbh [~dbh@182.55.3.19] has joined #lisp 13:08:29 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:17 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:10:46 drewc: will there be a web interface for the mailing lists? 13:11:27 theos, you know about lush? 13:11:50 rszeno not yet 13:11:51 how is lush going to help? 13:12:20 graphics and easy binding? 13:13:37 blender has python as a scripting language 13:14:04 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:11 unless you think that adding a new scripting language is easier than learning python, then lush won't help 13:15:15 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 13:15:32 depend of which pain is bigger, :) 13:15:43 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.143] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:16:06 you have to be unfathomably smug to think it is 13:16:13 its python then :) 13:16:44 but then, if you're that smug you would write your own 3d editor in CL 13:17:01 cant say i didnt think about that ^^ 13:18:12 autocad is written in lisp. so yea 13:18:32 calling cl from blender will still exists 13:18:35 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:18:44 theos: is it? 13:18:52 but you can use python to run cl 13:19:08 Joreji_ [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:08 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.143] has joined #lisp 13:19:11 i guess, :) 13:20:06 stassats i think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoLISP 13:20:33 pnpuff_ [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 or atleast extensions can be written in lisp 13:20:36 and where does it say that autocad is written in it? 13:21:08 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.148.206.123] has joined #lisp 13:23:28 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23:28 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 13:23:36 -!- pnpuff [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:23:45 -!- pnpuff_ is now known as pnpuff 13:25:00 ok. it supports autolisp APIs 13:26:39 -!- dbh [~dbh@182.55.3.19] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:26:54 -!- Subfusc_ is now known as Subfusc 13:28:00 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.172.85.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:19 wbooze 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[4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has joined #lisp 13:57:19 <[6502]> Hello. Is using (list) instead of NIL considered bad? 13:58:04 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.106.90] has joined #lisp 13:58:25 [6502]: it is just wasteful and i'd want to know why it would be good. 13:59:14 <[6502]> H4ns: i thought it would make clear that this use of NIL was intended as an empty list (to be filled, for example) 13:59:47 <[6502]> H4ns: i also expected compilers to optimize it 13:59:57 *[6502]* is checking 14:00:15 if you want so much to make it clear, why not make a comment? 14:00:15 i've never seen that and i'm not a fan of attaching type information to variables like that 14:00:19 what does (list) return ..? 14:00:24 '() ? 14:00:33 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:00:34 all these subtle hints are really not making anything clear 14:00:47 j`ey: there is this repl thing that you could use to try it out 14:00:48 the only though i would have "what the hell the author was thinking?" 14:00:52 <[6502]> H4ns: indeed (lisp) and NIL compile to the same 14:01:20 [6502]: don't invent new "conventions". :D 14:01:21 <[6502]> sorry 14:01:23 <[6502]> (list) 14:01:34 "it is a convention that only i know about" ha! 14:01:47 either uses nil or (), everything else is silly 14:02:01 <[6502]> i'm sure I've read somewhere people using () instead of NIL in that case 14:02:22 Fenton-Travers-n [~androirc@pcd544176.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:28 (funcall (lambda ())) 14:02:48 H4ns: I dont have one here! 14:02:49 pnpuff: ((lambda ())) is better 14:02:54 [6502]: right. i know that variables are initialized to nil by default, so when i want a variable that i want to initialize by nil, i don't use an explicit initializer 14:03:00 makes clear that the author is bonkers and you shouldn't touch the code 14:03:07 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:03:21 <[6502]> pnpuff: (funcall (funcall (lambda () (lambda ())))) 14:03:34 axion [~axion@66.231.120.220] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 i don't think that anybody catches any hints when seeing nil vs (), it's just wishful thinking that it will make anything clear 14:04:09 <[6502]> pnpuff: that too compiles to NIL :-) 14:04:29 [6502]: writing (let ((foo '()) ..) is like giving out crutches at the bottom of your staircase just in case someone comes by who's got trouble walking stairs 14:04:32 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:04:44 *stassats* ues (let (foo) ...) 14:05:07 stassats: that's the way. 14:05:16 using nil to me looks better 14:05:44 better on what counts? 14:06:03 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.206.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:06:51 I use (let ((foo '())) ...). Clearly I was infected by all them schemers... also, I still have a vague hope that some updated CL can have foo in (let (foo) ...) take an undefined value. 14:06:52 <[6502]> so it doesn't help to differentiate between a variable where you will PUSH something to and one that you will set to T as a flag for example... 14:06:59 [6502]: (apply (lambda ()) nil) 14:07:19 pkhuong: over my dead body, if i have a say in it :) 14:07:26 [6502]: no, documentation helps 14:07:44 [6502]: use a language with typed variables if you want typed variables. 14:08:02 i would be happy to use (let ((foo))) or (let ((foo nil))), but the standard allows me to use (let (foo)), and i do 14:08:55 stassats: looks clearer 14:09:01 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:09:05 j`ey: how do you know? 14:09:21 in which units are you measuring clarity? 14:09:38 -!- munge [~user@ip72-209-237-151.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:31 stassats: well, I did say "to me" :) 14:11:08 maybe you're saying "it's more familiar to me"? 14:11:22 jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has joined #lisp 14:11:26 sure 14:11:34 I just prefer to be explicit 14:11:38 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.203.68] has joined #lisp 14:12:12 j`ey: so you initialize all your keyword arguments with nil explictly? 14:12:36 i never can justify intellectually style choices, especially where it comes to clarity 14:12:57 i just try to use it for some time and see if i find it annoying or not 14:13:05 <[6502]> (defvar *x*) leaves *x* unbound? 14:13:09 yes 14:13:38 -!- sdemarre [~serge@45.146-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:13:47 H4ns: I dont write scheme 14:13:51 or lisp 14:13:52 <[6502]> i see pkhuong point about (LET (x) ...) 14:14:14 [6502]: lexical variables can't be unbound 14:14:46 stassats: well, they could ;) 14:15:09 <[6502]> and x could have been special anyway 14:15:31 if x is special, you don't need to put it into let 14:15:38 if you want it to remain unbound 14:16:21 <[6502]> LET would be still wrapping it 14:16:27 no 14:17:04 <[6502]> (let (x) (setf x 42)) may change x if x is special? 14:17:46 setf will change X binding regardless of its type 14:18:35 stassats: (let ((*foo* 0)) (makunbound '*foo*) ...) We can establish a new binding and make that binding unbound. That's not the same as removing the binding. 14:20:50 pkhuong: i'm not sure to what is this reply 14:21:11 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@189.139.249.47] has joined #lisp 14:21:39 stassats: there's a difference between a new binding to unbound and leaving the existing dynamic binding visible. 14:22:51 is makunbound specified to do so? 14:25:22 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-178-140-78-173.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:54 on ecl and abcl makunbound makes the whole thing unbound 14:26:04 [6502]: to understand the difference between dynamic and lexical scoping try to (setf x 3), after try (defun foo () x) (let ((x 13)) (foo)) and (let ((x 13)) ((lambda (x) x) x)) . I hope this is helpful. 14:26:24 i don't understand why would anybody to that anyway 14:32:14 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:21 *[6502]* confesses that he's used to (list) because that is what is needed in his toy compiler where lists are first-class objects 14:33:18 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:33:31 <[6502]> i'll fix my bad habit when writing common lisp, tho 14:34:59 <[6502]> jscl btw doesn't optimize (list) to nil 14:37:23 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@99.158.45.47] has joined #lisp 14:38:17 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:42 tigranes: the current code matches in this command call: pgmname helloPGMNAMEworld # I don't know if that's wanted, that's why I asked. Sounds silly. But obviously, it's an "exercise", so 14:40:04 As you said, a mere search (possibly with :test 'equalp) would do. 14:41:43 <[6502]> things that are skipped over by #+ are still allowed to name objects with #= that can be used later? 14:42:00 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@189.139.249.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:46 <[6502]> gmmm 14:48:35 AFAIK, yes. 14:48:44 -!- jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:50 <[6502]> seems that you can refer to named objects but that you cannot name new ones 14:50:28 <[6502]> (read-from-string "(#1=144 (#+ :SBCL #1# #1# #1#))") returns (144 (144 144 144)) 14:50:31 [6502]: try (defvar v 'optimize)(let ((z '(list))(y 'nil)) ((lambda (x)y)z)) 14:51:02 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:30 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:40 <[6502]> (read-from-string "(#- :SBCL #1=144 #1# #1#))") instead tells #1# is undefined 14:51:45 <[6502]> with #+ works 14:55:43 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:18 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.106.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:59:09 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:44 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:50 [6502]: anyway IMHO nil and () [the empty list] are equally important, for example: ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)) 2) nil) is equal to ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (cons x y)) 2) ()) 15:00:59 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 -!- Fenton-Travers-n [~androirc@pcd544176.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:13 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:12 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.172.85.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:51 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 -!- setmeaway2 [oosool3@119.201.52.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:33 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 15:07:09 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0020aa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:07:37 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:10:11 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:18 davazp [~user@178.167.239.11.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 15:11:00 pnpuff: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node9.html 15:11:38 [6502]: sorry, nil is not a number , I was wrong... 15:12:06 [6502]: anyway this look interesting: ((lambda (x) ((lambda (y) (cons x y)) '())) '()) 15:12:36 pnpuff: I used (list) when I want to stress the building of a fresh list. 15:12:53 *[6502]* can't question what someone else finds interesting 15:13:17 (defun make-fresh-list (args) (cond ((base-case-p args) (list)) (t (cons (element args) (make-fresh-list (other args)))))) 15:14:27 mc40 [~mc@host86-148-141-128.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 <[6502]> pjb: i liked that idea too. seems it's considered an abomination in common lisp 15:16:43 Nope. 15:17:56 but there's no point in using (list) if the function returns random lists: (defun random-list (x) (case (random 3) (0 '()) (1 (list x)) (2 `(a ,x)))) 15:18:05 but of course, here we use '()! 15:19:12 <[6502]> of course 15:19:13 Unless your function returns random objects: (defun random-objects (x) (case (random 3) (0 nil#|boolean|#) (1 t) (3 'nil#|symbol|#) (4 (list x)) (5 #(a vector)))) 15:19:37 *[6502]* cannot question what someone else thinks is obvious either 15:20:04 Obviously, what's declared obvious, if often not obvious. 15:20:57 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 15:23:00 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:24:50 except that quoting literal objects is questionable 15:26:11 -!- rm0130 [~rm0130@110.178.179.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:41 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29832C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:38 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:32:07 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:33:27 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: EvW] 15:33:51 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 -!- mc40 [~mc@host86-148-141-128.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: mc40] 15:37:30 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:37:37 <[6502]> to create a special unique object is (defvar *marker* #:marker) reasonable? 15:37:57 -!- deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: deveux] 15:39:53 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.112.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:40:04 Yes. However, cons cells are the smallest unique objects you can allocate. 15:40:29 <[6502]> duh 15:40:30 But symbols display nicer than (nil . nil) 15:40:37 <[6502]> hmmm 15:40:41 <[6502]> that's right 15:40:44 Use (cons nil nil) to allocate a unique one. 15:41:11 <[6502]> i'll go for the marker for now... when it's debugged i'll switch to (cons nil nil) 15:41:17 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:25 Often one uses (list 'marker) which displays as (marker) which is as good as #:marker, even if less obvious that it's unique. 15:41:48 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:42:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.129] has joined #lisp 15:42:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.129] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:43:04 an uninterned symbol has the advantage of clearly indicating it's meant to be a unique, whereas (foo) has the possible interpretation of 'should be compared with EQUAL' 15:43:48 sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 15:44:16 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@243.red-79-156-231.staticip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:45:22 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:46:24 what's special about #: symbols? 15:46:55 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:47:08 they don't have a home package 15:47:22 <[6502]> capisce: they're not interned... in other words (eq '#:x '#:x) is nil 15:49:45 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:50:08 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-140-74.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:46 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:30 Mauricio [~Mauricio@201.200.91.126] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:53:55 capisce: try ((lambda (z k) (eq z k)) '#:x '#:x) and (let ((z '#:x) (k '#:x)) (eq z k)) 15:54:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:35 pnpuff: what's that supposed to show? 15:56:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:56:57 stassats: only that '#:x is not equal to '#:x 15:56:59 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:51 pnpuff: [6502] just said that, what's your example supposed to show? 15:58:08 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:59:34 mc40 [~mc@86.148.141.128] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 loglogloglog [~log@69.51.112.66] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 stassats: nothing, it is only another way to see the same thing I think , like this: (apply #'eq '('#:x '#:x)) 16:01:07 hello, i'm writing a script to analyze a crontab, and i had a few general questions... is this a good place to ask? 16:01:32 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:01:53 pnpuff: there's an infinite other ways to do write the same code, will you show them all? 16:02:07 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:19 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:24 loglogloglog: yes, it's a good place 16:02:32 loglogloglog: if you have good questions, that is 16:02:33 specifically, i'm scanning the file in line by line, and then trying to create a class 16:03:16 i'm having trouble passing the string to my class deffinition, 16:03:45 is my approach flawed? in otherwords, is this approach to brittle? 16:04:09 why do you need to create new classes? why not make instances of some other class? 16:04:22 Bike [~Glossina@75-164-175-225.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:26 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:05:04 well, each line in the file is of the form "* * 4 * * php /path/to/cronjob.php" 16:05:37 see, the script is supposed to send out an email that tells when each cron job is about to run 16:05:46 (make-instance 'cron-job :time ... :command ...) 16:05:55 :repeat, what have you 16:06:08 oh snap 16:06:50 see, it was for an interview question, and i wrote it in python, but now i'm going back to re write it in cl just for my own edification 16:07:23 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:07:24 but i think one of the strictures on the question weas that i was not to use any existing crontab libs 16:07:54 is the 'cron-job class in the cl package? 16:08:03 guess i could find out pretty easily.... 16:08:13 why would it be there? 16:10:05 so, when you go (make-instance 'cron-job ...etc) you're inheriting from an already existing class? 16:10:34 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:10:44 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:10:52 loglogloglog: perhaps you should watch: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/programming-abstraction-liskov 16:10:52 make-instance does not induce any inheritance 16:11:03 loglogloglog: it creates an instance of a class 16:11:14 loglogloglog: also, you should learn about OO, you've got your terminology all mixed up. 16:11:25 your job is to create a suitable class 16:12:11 yeah the clos approach to oo is a bit confusing, coming from a java background 16:12:22 It has nothing to do with that. 16:12:22 it's the same thing in this case 16:12:26 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:27 :-) wow 16:12:55 minion: please tell loglogloglog about keene 16:12:56 keene: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/keene 16:12:59 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:12:59 The top-down design methodology says that you start by writing high level code, using things that are not implemented yet, so that you can specify them and refine the design by then implementing them. 16:13:35 In (make-instance 'cron-job ...etc) of course there's no cron-job yet. It's your job to specify, design and implement it! 16:13:49 oh right 16:14:11 And instanciating a class doesn't mean inheriting (unless you're in prototype based OO like in javascript). 16:15:02 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:24 if you do (make-instance 'something (parent-class) ...) doesn't it inherit from parent-class? 16:15:28 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:34 no 16:15:44 you should really learn the basic of CLOS 16:15:47 basics 16:15:48 Only a class can inherit from another class. 16:15:58 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:59 This isn't even the basic of CLOS, but the basic of OO. 16:16:19 any good resources for clos? is the liskov presentation about that? 16:16:19 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:28 minion: Keene 16:16:29 Keene: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Keene 16:16:46 alright, i'll google around 16:16:49 rm0130 [~rm0130@110.178.179.202] has joined #lisp 16:16:58 can't you follow that link? 16:17:19 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:17:21 loglogloglog, see Practical Common Lisp 16:17:25 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:39 yeah, i've been using practical common lisp 16:17:54 Keene's book is good even if you don't know anything about OO 16:18:02 no, liskov's presentation is about knowing your fundamentals. 16:18:22 she references a lot of papers every programmer should know. 16:20:40 jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:20:51 alright sweet thanks for the help. 16:21:37 in principle, it should be possible to create a class that takes a string, and parses the string to fill each value in the slot? given that the string follows a certain format? 16:21:50 or is that approach totally misguided? 16:21:50 Definitely. 16:21:57 I mean it's not possible. 16:21:58 -!- mc40 [~mc@86.148.141.128] has quit [Quit: mc40] 16:22:14 classes don't take strings or parse things 16:22:21 they just describe structures 16:22:25 About misguided, I think I'd prefer to separate the parsing from the instanciation. 16:22:29 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:22:48 pjb: sorry but partitions (00:14:15) are used to "modularize" better by means of a kind of "partition function" or not? 16:22:51 Your parsing function could return a p-list that matches the keyword arguments of make-instance, so you could write: 16:23:11 (apply (function make-instance) 'cron-job (parse-cron-job-line (read-line crontab-stream))) 16:23:33 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 16:23:49 is there anything similar to getch() for CL? 16:23:59 Joreji [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 clhs read-char 16:24:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 16:26:08 if you really want getch, it's out of scope of CL and is terminal dependent 16:27:00 I really want getch, and don't have a problem on it being terminal dependent 16:27:49 then do what your terminal needs to use that 16:27:50 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:36 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:37 -!- loglogloglog [~log@69.51.112.66] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:29:34 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:01 pnpuff: well, there's an historical context here, as I understand it, partitions were some kind of OS module. 16:30:50 Denommus: see also read-byte. getch is actually a read-byte, since in C, there are no characters, only bytes. 16:32:55 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:33:12 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:19 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:39:51 nilsi__ [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has joined #lisp 16:40:40 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:42:41 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:42 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-217-140.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:43:08 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 16:43:36 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:45:11 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:54 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 16:48:05 janiczek [~Adium@51.40.broadband11.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 -!- nilsi__ [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:48:39 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:49:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:54:29 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@61.190.87.60] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:54:50 -!- _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 16:55:47 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29832C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:14 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:26 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:47 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-228.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:14 zacts [~blueberry@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 17:04:43 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:05:50 <[6502]> reader of #1=(42 . #1#) works 17:06:13 tigranes [~tigranes@209.44.107.2] has joined #lisp 17:06:16 *[6502]* wonders if anyone does things like that for real 17:06:49 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:06:58 yes 17:07:08 <[6502]> ok at runtime 17:07:11 <[6502]> but also at read time? 17:07:28 what's wrong with read-time? 17:07:56 Hi! Is there a general "feeling" about osicat? Of the "fine library!" or "obsolete, don't use" or something of the sort? 17:08:20 <[6502]> nothing 17:10:15 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:16 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 17:13:24 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 tigranes: a fair amount of its functionality also exists in standard common lisp (i.e. file/directory access), and I think that iolib is more popular while also providing access to more syscalls and socket abstractions, but if all you need is posix file access I don't see a problem with it 17:15:23 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:56 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:14 phadthai: I see. Thanks! iolib's alternative pathnames scare me O.o 17:18:42 -!- Yonkie_ [~Yonkie@ip.82.144.199.214.stat.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:19:34 -!- whist [~whist@c-98-232-204-76.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:21:28 tigranes: why ? 17:21:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21:43 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29832C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:24:33 agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 zacharias_ [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:26:55 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:27:09 fe[nl]ix: Because it seems like I'd be cut off from any other function in CL or implementation extensions that takes a pathname as an argument. 17:27:32 -!- rm0130 [~rm0130@110.178.179.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:15 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 17:30:00 nilsi [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has joined #lisp 17:30:07 -!- janiczek [~Adium@51.40.broadband11.iol.cz] has left #lisp 17:30:09 How can I do to bind in this abstraction: lambdaxy.x x to a numeric value (e.g. 2) and leave y a as free variable? Really I'm trying to "build" K.. so I need help! thx a lot if anyone could help me... 17:30:22 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.239.11.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:57 (lambda (y) (declare (ignore y)) 2) 17:33:09 davazp [~user@92.251.130.10.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 17:33:41 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj179.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 17:33:57 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj179.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:35:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@ppp-88-217-80-24.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:36:04 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:33 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:22 there is maybe a way to see the 17:37:22 dependency 17:37:22 17:38:00 oh, you mean the K combinator from SKI? (lambda (const) (lambda (_) (declare (ignore _)) const)) 17:38:04 of the lambda term from x? 17:42:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:43:09 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:43:10 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 Bike: so it's needed curring and lambdax[lambday[x]] looks fine. thanks. 17:44:55 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@pD9F99C79.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:45:05 well, i guess you could do (lambda (const _) (declare (ignore _)) const) if you want 17:46:54 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d137125.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:47:27 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@c217019.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:46 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:48:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:12 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@99.158.45.47] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 17:52:26 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-178-140-78-173.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.203.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:38 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.120] has joined #lisp 17:58:06 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:59:20 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:27 deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:38 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-20.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:45 so, did anyone manage to install cl-ncurses? 18:06:49 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 when I try to, it complains that /usr/lib64/libncurses.so is too small 18:07:03 i've used it before 18:07:14 uh, had no problem like that, though. 18:07:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:07:44 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:51 k0001 [~k0001@host86.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:08:12 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:18 "/lib64/libncurses.so: file too short." 18:09:16 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:38 that's quite odd 18:09:39 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:49 you might also want to try cl-charms which is a port using cffi 18:09:52 looks like a broken symlink 18:10:10 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboc221.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:10:32 I think /lib64 symlinks to /usr/lib in my system, but I'm not having a problem in other packages 18:10:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:10:37 what should I do? 18:10:41 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-klbytirboojgfmlh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:11:24 you could strace/ktruss etc and see what it's really trying to do, and inspect the code... or try cl-charms too 18:12:06 zickzackv [~faot@g225055025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:12:26 Denommus: maybe your /lib64/libncurses is somehow a linker script 18:13:23 phadthai: strangely enough, cl-charms gives me Unable to load any of the alternatives: ("libcurses.so" "libncurses.so") 18:13:23 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj179.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:31 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboc221.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:13:47 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc221.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:16:05 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:17:11 Denommus: as p_l|omoikane suggested, perhaps that it's a text file rather than a dynamic library? 18:17:38 it's not the case on my systems but I just ssh'd to an ubuntu system and am seeing such text scripts for some libraries 18:18:35 when I cat it, it gives me INPUT(-lncursesw) 18:19:04 if so perhaps that fixing LD_LIBRARY_PATH or the equivalent to the right location might help, but I admit I have few cffi experience as I mostly use ECL with its own FFI 18:19:36 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libncurses.so is the INPUT thing, but the real library is in /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libncurses.so.5 18:20:41 -!- zickzackv [~faot@g225055025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:20:56 stassats: indeed it is 18:21:28 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:21:59 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 18:22:41 I'm afraid of messing with my filesystem, but I could symlink /usr/lib/libncurses.so to /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5, right? 18:22:47 so if you can control LD_LIBRARY_PATH or RPATH to the right directory dlopen might work 18:23:26 (or tell the ffi layer explicitely where to load it) 18:24:04 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-tkgnlnrmcbfcjsnj] has joined #lisp 18:24:12 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-89-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:24:47 Novimundus [~eodnhoj@147.9.88.15] has joined #lisp 18:24:57 I'll see what I can do 18:25:13 I do not, for the life of me, understand closures. Could anyone help me? I can relate it to python decorators but, what I just don't see the entire picture. 18:25:24 RPATH is part of the ELF object if it was linked with it, as for LD_LIBRARY_PATH it's an environment variable, deprecating the previous /etc/ld.so.conf 18:27:09 Novimundus: it's not a lisp-specific concept, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_%28computer_science%29 18:27:26 Novimundus: what don't you understand about clusures? 18:27:59 echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH seems to be empty, and #archlinux didn't help me at all 18:28:03 All I see them as are intermediate functions. i.e. python decorators (or at least the capacity I've used them) 18:28:18 I don't see what's so significant about them accessing non-lexical variables 18:28:33 in my experience if it's a non-lexical variable it's either passed in or a global anyways 18:28:39 so I guess I don't see a need for them. 18:28:42 Denommus: yes it'll generally be empty by default, with only the system default paths or in-object rpath being searched, LD_LIBRARY_PATH allows to add extra paths 18:28:43 you can capture the state of the previous scope and send to somewhere else 18:29:03 But I could also just pass the scope too 18:29:12 Without using a decorator/closure 18:29:23 Thinking in terms of Java right now 18:29:28 Novimundus: you don't know a lot about functional programming, do you? 18:29:36 -!- axion [~axion@66.231.120.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:29:36 Novimundus: forget Java, Java sucks 18:29:42 I know =\ 18:29:48 a closure is a much more simple and powerful abstraction 18:29:50 But I'm an undergrad CS student. 2 semesters in. 18:30:08 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 18:30:10 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:10 Novimundus: "accessing non-lexical variables"? 18:30:25 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:30:46 sorry i meant non local 18:30:53 non lexical would mean not valid tokens xP 18:31:03 phadthai: I don't know what I would put in the LD_LIBRARY_PATH. It is searching in the right place, it's just that the right place has the wrong thing 18:31:21 when you return a function, and this function refers some variables form the outer scope, you need to decide what to decide what to do with this variables 18:31:38 What would be the proper way of upgrading ASDF in SBCL? At least in such a way that Quicklisp will stop complaining about packages that need ASDF version > 2.31 18:32:08 in the general cases, a closure is a function with a piece of storage for variables referenced by that function 18:32:13 Novimundus: imagine that you have a variable, "x", passed by the user, and a vector, "vec", which you want to transform into another vector, "vec2". But every element of vec2 is the respective element of vec, plus x 18:32:21 Novimundus: how would you do that in Java? 18:32:28 Denommus: if your real library is in /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/, then you can try export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ and it should have priority over the path it first tries by default 18:32:47 For loop through the vector and add x to each element? 18:33:09 Novimundus: in Common Lisp, you only say (map 'vector (lambda (v) (+ x v)) vec) 18:33:26 I could lambda that in Python too. 18:33:39 Novimundus: Common Lisp allows for what we call "declarative style programming", which is not possible without closures 18:33:40 So closures are a shortcut....? 18:33:46 yes, because python has closures 18:33:51 that is, not possible in Java 18:33:57 Hmm. 18:34:03 I see the difference. 18:34:24 So it 18:34:24 Novimundus: no, you can do much more than that. A closure has the state of the previous scope, so you can have data structures with nothing more than functions 18:34:27 declarative style of programming not possible without closures? very interesting 18:34:59 stassats: sorry, I fucked up. I meant functional style 18:35:10 declarative style is possible without closures. SQL is declarative 18:36:00 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:12 you don't need closures in a pure functional language 18:36:31 phadthai: my real library seems to be libncurses.so.5, or libncursesw.so, I'm not sure 18:36:52 stassats: ok, then I'm wrong 18:37:05 anyway, closures certainly help 18:38:37 Okay. I think I get closures, but I don't see the beauty in it. So this is how I'm going to explain it to my body: 18:38:39 *buddy 18:38:42 Wow that sounded weird 18:38:57 there's no beauty, that's just how you make sane first class functions 18:39:07 Closures allow me to (optionally) clone/retain a state and make modifications and return it without alteration to the original. 18:39:25 Yay or nay? 18:39:29 uh... that... doesn't seem right 18:39:41 No? Damnit. 18:39:42 Novimundus: how are closures related to non lexical variables? 18:39:51 (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (funcall (lambda () (setf (car x) 9))) x) => (9 . 2) 18:39:59 Novimundus: it's not about "beauty", it's about making maintainable code. For doing the same thing in Java you'd need whole new classes 18:40:04 no cloning 18:40:29 I think I have some examples at hand, wait 18:40:36 gmcastil` [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:39 however, you could do (defun adder (n) (lambda (x) (+ x n))) and then (adder 4) and (adder 5) maintain distinct state 18:41:18 Yes....so the first one is a one step state transition, and the latter has a total of 3....so? 18:41:48 what? 18:42:10 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@129.10.167.76] has joined #lisp 18:42:13 Novimundus: otherwise, one problem is that in CL there are no global lexical variables. But one could imagine a language where global variables are lexical too (eg. scheme, or you could make them in CL with symbol macros). 18:42:17 So in the first example you created '(1 2), then you called a lambda function that changes the car to 9, and then you called it on '(1 2) 18:42:36 i called it on nothing 18:42:37 #lisp is not really the place for learning how closures work 18:42:56 Oh. 18:43:05 Novimundus: that's not possible. '(1 2) evaluates to a literal, it couldn't be "created". 18:43:17 I just meant that the closure there modifies the x in its surrounding scope 18:43:18 Novimundus: and (1 2) is not what is returned by (cons 1 2). 18:43:21 because it's such a basic thing 18:43:23 Novimundus: if you wish, we can transfer the discussion for ##programming. I'm there, too 18:43:27 Novimundus: anyway maybe would be nice for you see how work beta-reduction... 18:43:48 I don't even know what a beta reduction is, but thanks for your time guys. I'll go harass #programming. I have a feeling I'm just overthinking this. 18:43:50 could you not inject random maths terms into every discussion, please 18:44:19 Novimundus: better read sicp and watch the videos. They explain the closures very nicely (amongst other things). 18:44:48 minion: SICP? 18:44:49 SICP: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 18:44:59 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:09 -!- gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:45:34 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 18:49:15 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:49:27 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:51:36 now I've some troubles "building" the S combinator, because of in the lambda abstraction lambdaxyz.xz(yz) I do not know how write the lisp code corresponding to term xy(yz) , so I'm still at (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) ... ))). Thanks for ny help... 18:52:11 *any* help 18:53:28 knob [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:03 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:55:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:56:51 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:57:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:47 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:02:07 ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 19:02:25 pnpuff: if you're currying everything, that'd be (funcall (funcall x y) (funcall y z)) 19:02:53 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:02:58 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.47.36.207] has joined #lisp 19:03:10 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:14 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has joined #lisp 19:05:36 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:06:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:23 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-tkgnlnrmcbfcjsnj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:06:28 Bike: and whitout curring how could I write the same expression? 19:06:43 flubbjlubb [~ce21z09l@gateway/tor-sasl/flubbjlubb] has joined #lisp 19:06:51 (funcall x y (funcall y z)) i guess? 19:06:59 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:07:02 ok... 19:07:26 except that won't work if y takes more arguments 19:08:07 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:21 and if y takes more arguments how can I do? 19:09:05 (funcall x y (lambda (&rest r) (apply y z r))) maybe 19:10:19 pnpuff: if you're as dumb as me, you shouldn't try to do it yourself! Just write a program to translate the lambda syntax to sexps! 19:11:36 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:12:33 pjb: but I need only combinators to prove the reduction axioms in combinatory logic at the moment ... 19:13:40 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14:04 knob [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:32 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: gn8 /)] 19:16:52 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host86.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:18:25 mc40 [~mc@host86-148-141-128.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-dcujchutyytduhie] has joined #lisp 19:19:51 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 -!- miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:23:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:23:27 pjb: anyway could you suggest me some good example of program to translate the lambda syntax to to sexp? Maybe would be useful... thanks! 19:24:33 rpr [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 19:24:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 pnpuff: http://paste.lisp.org/+2XQM 19:31:17 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has joined #lisp 19:32:21 there's no need to be smart, if you can write program to think in your place. 19:32:41 wow, thanks a lot pjb 19:33:13 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.83.99] has joined #lisp 19:34:35 sdemarre [~serge@45.146-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:35:12 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:35:20 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-178-140-78-173.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:44 seangrove [~user@173.228.102.82] has joined #lisp 19:38:34 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-20.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:54 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-20.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:14 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:43:17 Bike_ [~Glossina@75-164-175-225.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:22 and (funcall (funcall x z) (funcall y z)) 19:43:28 is right! :) 19:43:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:44:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-164-175-225.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:44:18 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 19:44:35 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has joined #lisp 19:44:53 obviously, since we started from the right axiom, and implemented the right deduction rules. 19:45:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:46:25 pjb: I was looking at (funcall (funcall x y) (funcall y z))... a random expression 19:50:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:51:05 tcr1 [~tcr@46-126-110-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:51:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:52:59 schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 19:57:26 -!- varjag_ is now known as varjag 19:57:43 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 19:59:36 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:59:54 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 19:59:55 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:59:55 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@129.10.167.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:32 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-194-85-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 20:01:45 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-194-85-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:02:40 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:02:48 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:02:51 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:16 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:03:21 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 20:04:39 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 20:06:55 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 20:08:02 Does anyone know how quicklisp handles github repositories and updates? 20:08:46 WarWeasle: it does not. for each release, xach pulls the latest releases in a semi-automatic fashion into quicklisp. 20:08:47 WarWeasle: AFAIK, Xach git update by hand. 20:09:32 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 20:11:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:11:47 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:12:16 pjb, I just got clinch in quicklisp . I wonder if there is a way to just have him pull the upadte at intervals. 20:12:49 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb fixing a major syncing error] 20:13:02 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 20:13:06 Yes, the intervales are monthly. 20:13:15 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:13:15 WarWeasle: if you give him your git repository as upstream source, he will update whenever he makes a new release 20:13:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:13:22 <[6502]> is it possible to write a reasonably efficient printer supporting *print-circle* in pure CL without having hash tables? 20:13:55 Yes. As it is possible to do anything with nothing in CS: you just re-implement the abstractions you're missing! Duh! 20:14:11 [6502]: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-38/srfi-38.html might help, it uses alists. 20:14:19 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:14:22 H4ns, thanks. That is perfect. 20:14:38 ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 20:14:38 there's a short line of old papers on the general topic of avoiding hash tables. You can do a lot of things by adding auxiliary slots to all objects. 20:14:42 Though I don't think it's all that fast... not that you're probably concerned with that if using *print-circle*, anyway 20:15:23 the issue then becomes one of showing that you can do all that you need with only a small number of such slots. 20:16:09 <[6502]> Bike: as I suspected printer is O(N^2) 20:17:04 <[6502]> pkhuong: indeed in javascript I'd add a "seen" marker to visited objects 20:17:21 <[6502]> ugly tho 20:18:27 -!- Myk268 [~myk@adsl-71-149-254-65.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 20:18:54 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 20:19:24 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-71-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:10 Well, ugly or not, you're just a foot note, even if the 6502nd one ;-) 20:21:32 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 20:21:36 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-102-14.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:40 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-179-51.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:22:11 <[6502]> there is no portable "(address-of x)" because of relocating garbage collectors I suppose 20:22:15 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:22:17 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 20:22:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:23:29 No, there's none because that's useless. 20:23:47 What do you want such a thing? 20:23:53 for 20:24:09 a pseudo-hash-table, probably 20:24:29 There's already sxhash. 20:24:45 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:25:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:11 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:34 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:26:50 Unless you can mark the objects somehow (maybe a bit array of address space?) It would be slower than a hashtable algorithm. 20:27:32 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-179-51.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:28:42 <[6502]> i think i'll add primitives to mark objects directly... 20:29:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:30:10 it appears to me that you're doing a premature optimization 20:30:36 <[6502]> or at least something that uses [].indexOf of javascript directly 20:31:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:40 <[6502]> stassats: may be you're right... i'll just put every object in a list made up of cons cells in which each one is a javascript object... it's going to be only 10000 times less efficient that a reasonable approach 20:33:14 what is it that you're trying to tell? 20:33:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29832C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 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