00:01:12 mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:04 then open mcl 00:02:10 right 00:02:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:03:12 linuxos: I'm guessing you're using linux? If so, sbcl is pretty good (it's windows story is historically worse, but there's a branch that can even do threads on windows now) 00:05:28 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:59 jasom: in fact, mainline SBCL can even do threads on windows now. 00:07:39 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:09:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:10:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:11:08 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:11:36 -!- d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:13:23 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 00:14:22 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.229.10] has joined #lisp 00:15:33 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@243.215.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 00:16:35 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-157-140.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:43 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.143] has joined #lisp 00:25:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:27:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:28:12 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937461.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:28:55 linuxos: have a look at what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 00:31:11 pjb: what does "precise GC" mean? Just not conservative? 00:31:25 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 00:32:55 -!- dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:14 dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has joined #lisp 00:34:24 jasom: that would be the opposite. 00:35:07 -!- linuxos [~linuxos@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: linuxos] 00:35:12 in conservative GC, any bit pattern in memory ressembling an address (ie. any bit pattern generally), is taken to be the address of in a block that should not be collected. 00:35:31 in precise, we know exactly where the addresses are stored, and don't care for random bit patterns in random places. 00:35:32 I know what conservative GC is; just wondering if precise was the inverse (which it is) 00:35:52 conservative is good in that you can pass lisp object references to C code. 00:35:54 pjb: btw "occurred", not "occured" 00:36:03 precise is good in that it can collect all the garbage. 00:36:15 adeht: where? 00:36:16 cond: how is the project going? 00:36:18 *jasom* has heard "precise" used to mean all garbage is collected as soon as all references are gone 00:36:36 dysoco_ [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has joined #lisp 00:36:44 jasom: perhaps but this would be inefficient. 00:36:47 indeed 00:36:50 pjb: "It seems a condition occured" (process-reset at the end) 00:36:53 Blueblaze: Which one? 00:37:20 cond: Federation 00:37:25 in lisp 00:37:33 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:37:43 Recursive [~z_axis@171.216.154.9] has joined #lisp 00:38:13 adeht: thanks. patch commited ;-) 00:38:36 "committed" :) 00:38:39 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:46 ok. 00:38:56 hehe 00:39:12 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.211.26] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:39:15 Blueblaze: Not written yet. I had 6 hours worth of math homework that I started at 5 am. 00:39:31 -!- dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:40:54 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.151.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:54 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-208-207.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:41:08 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.151.37] has joined #lisp 00:41:44 -!- dysoco_ [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:42:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@12.226.90.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:43:07 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 00:43:07 dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has joined #lisp 00:43:18 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 00:48:12 -!- dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:48:27 dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has joined #lisp 00:49:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:50:01 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-157-140.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:50:15 dysoco_ [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has joined #lisp 00:50:56 -!- wakeup [~user@xdsl-89-0-71-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:52:44 Yesterday nyef mentioned that s/he "hate[s] recommending alexandria", largely because it's an extra dependency. What do people do with utility functions? Copy/paste them from one project to another? 00:52:56 Like FLATTEN, for example. 00:53:28 -!- dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:53:49 dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has joined #lisp 00:55:45 -!- dysoco_ [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:55:50 I use alexandria 00:56:15 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:16 I add it as a dependency by habit when I make an .asd file, since I nearly always end up using it 00:57:15 jasom: I'm doing the same, actually, so was surprised that it was frowned upon by (some) people. 00:58:31 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:58:40 this is the world of quicklisp, we don't care that much about an extra dependency anymore* 00:58:51 *given that it's on quicklisp and maximally portable 00:59:00 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.143] has joined #lisp 00:59:04 Quicklisp is awesome. 00:59:13 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:30 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:00:51 -!- dysoco [~dysoco@190.178.224.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:00:55 avev [~majakota@110.136.145.103] has joined #lisp 01:00:57 tigranes: lispers are diverse enough that almost everything is frowned upon by some people 01:01:08 -!- avev [~majakota@110.136.145.103] has left #lisp 01:01:45 cond: Quicklisp is pretty amazing. I was very excited after I started poking in lisp (yet) again and found it. 01:02:17 jasom: I frown upon that generalization. 01:03:39 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:04 tigranes: Yes, hopefully it will reduce some wheel reinventing, too, since there's a big list of available libraries for any given task that can easily be embedded as a dependency. 01:04:40 jasom: I can see that, as a novice, though, it helps to imitate what experienced lispers do :) 01:05:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:25 Speaking of imitating what experienced Lispers do, is this style guide any good? https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml 01:06:44 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:07:10 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 01:07:18 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:07:33 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 01:07:41 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:08:34 cond: What do you open that in? It shows up as a solid block of text for me. 01:09:08 It's got a style sheet, you should be able to read it in a browser. 01:09:15 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.188.53.threembb.ie] has left #lisp 01:09:31 interesting, it's a .xml so only certain browsers handle it properly as a document. 01:09:34 I didn't notice that. 01:09:38 cond: heh. I wasn't familiar with that document.. but it does contain a link to norvig/pitman's style guide 01:10:09 Ah, apparently it's only my Firefox 01:10:43 My Firefox handles it properly. 01:11:00 20.0 01:11:18 adeht: "For more detailed style guidance, take a look at Peter Norvig and Kent Pitman's style guide." *More* detailed? :o 01:12:06 this one has weird rules, anyway 01:12:07 *tigranes* grumbles about Firefox add-ons breaking completely unrelated functionality. 01:12:09 "When several correct spellings exist (including American vs English), and there isn't a consensus amongst developers as which to use, you should choose the shorter spelling." 01:12:43 Bah, that's clear American bias right there! 01:13:00 adeht: Yes, some of the rules are clearly just supposed to be internal ITA rules. 01:13:01 initialise-color 01:13:15 Note that Google published it. It was probably not intended for publication originally. 01:14:35 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host141.186-125-98.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:14:48 Interesting that they have a CL style guide to begin with. 01:15:16 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITA_Software 01:15:30 It's from this acquisition. 01:15:33 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:16:28 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:30 I see 01:17:02 huangho_ [~guest@177.203.113.241] has joined #lisp 01:17:44 I'm not sure how much it has changed from its initial version, but it's in an SVN repo (according to the URL at least) so you should be able to find old versions to see what was closer to the ITA original. 01:18:05 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 01:18:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:53 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:20:20 -!- huangho [~guest@177.2.150.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:23:21 The original version mentions ITA twice. I can't find a way to diff r101 with r88 on the Google Code UI. https://code.google.com/p/google-styleguide/source/browse/trunk/lispguide.xml?spec=svn88&r=88 01:24:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:40 cond: skimming that guide it looks fairly good to me.. though I have little disagreements and exceptions 01:29:36 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 01:30:25 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:53 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:18 ok, I found some bigger disagreements as well 01:36:38 adeht: Such as? 01:37:33 for example "Code must not call SIGNAL. Instead, use ERROR or ASSERT." or "If you know the type of something, you should make it explicit in order to enable compile-time and run-time sanity-checking." 01:38:19 it also contains a bad example of print-object 01:38:35 :-) 01:40:37 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:37 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:40:37 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 01:41:52 axion [~axion@66.231.120.220] has joined #lisp 01:42:36 adeht: since you're not contributing Lisp code to Google projects, I suspect it doesn't matter in the end ;) 01:42:36 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.229.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:49 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:42:52 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.229.10] has joined #lisp 01:43:25 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:43:26 Well, the problem with style guides, is that they're formally written. 01:43:34 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.229.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:42 Style should come from taste. 01:43:53 -!- mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:43:59 I fail to see how good taste can be developed from rigid rules. 01:44:15 pjb: where the style comes from, and how it is described are two separate things 01:44:51 madnificent: no, because good taste means that the style can, may and must evolve, depending on situations and times. 01:45:01 -!- ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:45:10 p_l: actually for some reason my brother sent my resume to google the other day.. though I'm not waiting for them.. just today I was accepting a job with some other company 01:45:21 It'd be better to write a document about good taste, rather than style guides. 01:46:03 -!- doomlord__ [~servitor@host31-52-58-47.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:17 and some people accept jobs with some other company and when they are accepted by google, prefer to go with google. (there was an article about that on HackerNews today :-) ). 01:46:42 adeht: afaik sending them the resume isn't exactly fast or certain way to even get a contact call ;) 01:46:50 pjb: yeah.. but I've a feeling that I wouldn't like the lengthy interview process 01:46:52 adeht: though fwiw, I never tried just doing that 01:47:33 adeht: Besides, they're probably too big nowadays. Unless you're Norvig or Kurtzweil, I'm not sure you could do anything interesting there. 01:47:38 pjb: the document is formal because it deals with coordinating style between multiple programmers of varying capability 01:47:47 p_l: sure :).. but lets say I'm not a very great fan of google anyway 01:47:53 p_l|omoikane: yes, but this is what I'm saying is not important. 01:48:09 It's no big deal if you have different styles in different parts of codes. 01:48:42 pjb: it is when you get inconsistent style in single part 01:48:50 Look how open source is. Basically each project has its own style. That doesn't prevent you to use code from every part. 01:48:50 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@75.23.45.178] has joined #lisp 01:49:45 Now, perhaps it's because of the orthogonality of lisp, but I really don't feel having different styles in a single expression is a problem at all. 01:49:46 pjb: well with the company I talked to today I can continue writing mostly Lisp, professionally 01:49:54 pjb: yes, but it can prove a problem when you want to work on that code instead of just using it 01:50:06 adeht: that's something google will hardly beat! :-) 01:50:43 p_l|omoikane: how is that a problem? Do the different styles in the different open source projects prevent you to debug or add features and provide patches? 01:51:31 doomlord_ [~servitor@host31-52-58-47.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:45 pjb: sometimes they lead to "it's easier to rewrite than read it" 01:52:12 (if (some-test) (do ((v i (1+ v))) ((stop-condition-p v (+ 7 8))) (body v)) (loop for x below (infix 3 + 4) to collect x)) ; are the different styles an impediment in this sexp? 01:52:31 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:52:54 pjb: that's a difference so small it's not noticeable 01:53:09 try getting face full of def macros :) 01:53:20 if* :( 01:53:32 (infix 3 + 4) vs. (+ 7 8)? Big deal! do vs. loop? How many megabytes on cll and #lisp about that? 01:53:37 or if* yes :-) 01:53:49 There's an (infix)? 01:53:52 but this is a question of taste. if* is bad, in the mouth. 01:53:59 cond: sure, several even. 01:54:54 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55:05 but again, while if* is bad taste in general, I'm sure there are programs who benefit a lot from it, and I wouldn't mind having it used in the parts where it comes out great. And in the same file, CL:IF being used for the 'normal' parts. 01:55:55 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:49 I think comment and documentation standards matter a lot in a project because of searching for specific things. Loop vs. do probably doesn't matter as much. 01:57:37 pjb: the problem is that other people _would_ mind.. so a "style guide" can be viewed not just as a way to dictate personal taste of its originators, but also to keep some bad taste of others out 01:58:04 d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has joined #lisp 02:00:00 adeht: bouahaha! 02:00:14 I mean, have you seen the style guides in most places? 02:00:18 I often use a recursive grep to find specific comments, e.g. TODO or FIXME, so certain conventions matter a lot within a project. (I bet emacs/slime has a better way.) 02:00:46 That's why I'm saying that it should be better to try to educate people in good taste, instead of wasting time on style guides. 02:00:58 cond: you can embed org into your source :) 02:01:03 cond: M-x find-grep RET is good yes. 02:01:39 or embed your sources into org. 02:02:13 Wow, M-x find-grep is useful. 02:03:13 cond: now, of course, you could use senator and other cedet tools, and perhaps hook them to parse those comments and build an easily browsable index, if there's not already something like that in it. 02:03:45 But find-grep is cool, and after the first one, all your sources are in RAM, so it's almost instantaneous even on big sources. 02:06:29 pjb: So do you concede that *some* style guide might be necessary if there are certain third party tools used to assist in development? 02:10:15 The style guide mentions a convention of ;--- to prefix special comments. Seems like a good idea to steal, even if I wind up ignoring large pieces of it. 02:10:52 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@216.18.22.26] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:12:49 cond: having special tags in code or comments is not style. It's still programming, be it at a declarative level. 02:13:14 In lisp, you could use declarations for that, so that you can easily process them without having to parse comments. 02:13:47 (declare (todo "fix it")) ? :) 02:13:55 Yes. 02:14:00 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:14:03 or worse, (declaim (todo "fix it")) :D 02:15:08 pjb: Is there a library that very nicely handles *everything* related to all that documentation stuff (including docstrings obviously)? 02:15:50 fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:47 Well, this is Lisp. There's probably 10 libraries that do it. 02:18:32 cond: also be aware that this style guide (like other guides) sometimes misses subtleties, and recommends to the reader a judgment that would not be made if fully informed 02:18:37 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:18:43 My main problem with cliki is that it's not opinionated and so I don't know which to try first. 02:19:19 It looks like there's a lot of options. http://www.cliki.net/documentation%20tool 02:19:20 nick` [~user@adsl-98-81-151-145.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:23 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:20:34 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:01 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 02:23:10 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:14 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:24 -!- nick` [~user@adsl-98-81-151-145.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:28 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.247] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:29:21 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:17 oi, quick question, in CL in what namespace do the slots reside? 02:31:43 Namespace? 02:31:53 none 02:33:42 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:19 ie I want to get the env slot from the class ningle:*request* but when I try something like (get env ningle:*request*) I get variable unbound 02:34:37 use slot-value, not get. 02:34:42 why would you think it was get? 02:34:52 I tried slot value first 02:34:57 clhs slot-value 02:34:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 02:35:06 the slot name should be a symbol. 02:35:09 and quote symbols if you don't want them to be evaluated. 02:35:11 it's just a function, not a special form. 02:35:24 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:30 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 the error message I get is When attempting to read the slot's value (slot-value), the slot 02:36:02 QCHAPI::ENV is missing from the object 02:36:17 so apparently it resolves the symbol to the current namespace? 02:36:37 no, the reader does 02:36:47 try 'nigle:env instead i guess 02:36:47 PuercoPop: you need to give the symbol that's used to name the slot.. perhaps ningle::env 02:37:13 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:38:09 clack.request is the namespace the class request with the slot env is there 02:38:17 so clack.request:env? 02:38:29 that's a package, but sure maybe? 02:38:45 PuercoPop: slots are objects and they (generally) have a name. that name is a symbol. the symbol which denotes the slot (in combination with a class or object) is the sybol you need for #'slot-value 02:38:55 PuercoPop: you can do (describe ningle:*request*) 02:39:11 -!- miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:39:16 awesome! it worked. So in my mind that means the slots are in the same namespace that the class it is defined? 02:39:29 no 02:39:30 sure, altough it basically just import's it from clack 02:39:30 PuercoPop: no 02:39:40 PuercoPop: slots are in the slot namespace. functions are in the function namespace. variables are in the variable namespace. 02:39:56 you could have a class named foo:bar with slots named pants:baz and cr:unk 02:40:02 PuercoPop: the slots are objects. just like (make-instance 'human :name "Bill Joe") will create an object 02:40:07 PuercoPop: interned symbols belong to packages 02:40:24 adeht: http://dpaste.com/1095473/ 02:40:43 slots aren't attributes to objects? 02:40:48 *of 02:40:55 PuercoPop: so that means the value of ningle:*request* is nil 02:41:02 ahh pkhuong I see my mistake 02:41:13 when using the namespace term 02:41:13 PuercoPop: now, for slots, we give each slot a name, which is a symbol. that symbol can be in any package. in general, the slot-names will be symbols from the same package as the class name, but it can easily be different. 02:41:17 htanks 02:41:25 PuercoPop: perhaps it is only bound in some handler you have 02:41:46 adeht: yeah it is a proxy, it is lexicaly bound to the current request which is an instance of clack:request 02:41:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.151.37] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:42:25 PuercoPop: so in that handler you can call describe.. and then it will show a description of that object 02:42:40 madnificent: so the correct term is in which package is the slot. Not namespace right? 02:42:45 PuercoPop: which should include the names of the slots and their values 02:42:49 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:50 in which package is the name of the slot 02:43:08 PuercoPop: in which package is the slot-name (or the slot's name) 02:43:38 PuercoPop: package vs namespace is correct btw 02:43:49 What packages are commonly used for documentation and testing? 02:43:52 PuercoPop: but the name of the slot, and the slot itself, are two disconnected things :) 02:44:03 adeht: the describe in the handler is nil 02:44:11 *PuercoPop* nods 02:44:19 cond: there are a few dozen test frameworks. 5am is one, there's also eos and some others i don't remember names of 02:44:19 cond: 5am for testing, docstrings for documentation 02:44:21 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-24-218-27-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:53 PuercoPop: so you need to get at the object you're interested at 02:45:00 cond: there are probably about as many test frameworks as lispers though, so if you dislike it, you can always roll your own ;-) (please don't) 02:45:27 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:45:51 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:47:26 adeht: *nods* But I know where teh definition is, I had read the code before asking. Although I am very in experienced with Common Lisp, hoping to change that though 02:47:55 madnificent: Well, I'll make *the* standard one everyone will use ;-P 02:50:44 cond: in that case, you should probably start out by typing over 5am word for word. i think it's the most popular one at the moment and it will give you a fairly solid user base to begin with. 02:50:53 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:51:00 Hey lispers, this snippet of code is found very early in the ECL bootstrapping code and I never understood what it did: http://pastebin.com/Zj2PGKTz. Its a (let () (defmacro LOOP ...) ). I'm trying to understand the side-effects of top-level forms vs non-top level forms. 02:51:08 madnificent: That was a joke. 02:51:45 What is the purpose of putting this defmacro within an empty let? 02:51:56 cond: indeed, my response might possibly not have been all too serious either. 02:52:19 drmeister: compile-time effects of defmacro are only enacted when defmacro is a toplevel form. 02:52:46 So with the let, the macro is not defined in the compilation environment, only when the file is loaded. 02:53:11 pjb: isn't that what EVAL-WHEN is used for? 02:53:14 And that happens that way because of eval-when special operators within the definition of defmacro? 02:53:30 They are ignored when they aren't top-level. 02:53:31 loke_: yes, but this is bootstrapping an implementation. perhaps eval-when is not available yet? 02:53:31 probably, though it doesn't have to do that 02:53:56 and yes, eval-when not toplevel is crazy. I'm not sure anybody every understood them. 02:53:57 eval-when is a special operator. It should always be available. It's like IF. 02:53:58 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-161-107.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:32 have you implemented l-t-v yet? :P 02:54:48 drmeister: it doesn't follow. while bootstrapping, things may be not what they appear to be. 02:55:24 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:56:15 pjb: I'll defer to your experience - I implemented all of the special operators in C++ so they are there from the beginning. 02:56:30 Bike: Yeah, I've had l-t-v for months now - works great. 02:56:42 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-64-237-161-107.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:26 I implemented load-time-value as an initialization function that creates load-time-values and literals and stuffs them all into an array. The compiled code accesses them using indexed lookup. It's very fast. 02:59:18 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:44 Generic function bootstrapping is the bane of my existence for the past couple of months. 02:59:59 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-161-107.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:01:19 I was able to get backtraces. I'm just working to regenerate the latest ones. 03:02:47 Or rather "generic function bootstrapping has been the bane of my existence for the past couple of months". 03:08:24 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:40 -!- fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:08:45 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 03:09:04 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:15 fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:12 -!- knob3212 is now known as knob 03:13:33 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:46 enupten [~neptune@c-24-18-243-195.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:02 I was on earlier describing a difficult bug that I've been wrestling with for the past two days. 03:15:49 I'm bootstrapping the ECL CLOS code within my common lisp compiler. In the very last stage when ECL CLOS is converting functions to generic functions this code is evaluated: http://pastebin.com/ryCxBR5b 03:16:45 My CL interpreter loads this code, macro expands the (defmethod aux-compute-applicable-methods...) on line 8 and then evaluates the results no problem. 03:17:18 But when I then try to COMPILE-FILE the file that contains this code, this code enters an infinite loop. 03:18:04 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:18:41 I've put a lot of print statements into the code and I've isolated the infinite loop to the DEFMETHOD macro expansion at compile time. The top of the defmethod macro is here: http://pastebin.com/Mbma19BJ 03:20:19 At compile-time, line 20 of the defmethod macro is evaluated (let* ((generic-function (ensure-generic-function name)) and an infinite loop starts before the next function (generic-function-method-class generic function) is evaluated. 03:20:35 agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:44 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:52 I've put PRINT statements all over the place and here's what the debugging output looks like from just before the (defmethod aux-compute-applicable-methods ...) is evaluated: http://pastebin.com/kBsPWnZP 03:23:18 It's evaluating compute-applicable-methods-using-classes over and over and over again, it is not recursive and I can't find a DO loop or any other kind of loop that might be responsible. The infinite loop is very small and tight. 03:24:08 I managed to slow the infinite-loop down and Ctrl-C within it and get a backtrace: http://pastebin.com/R6XcjyaJ 03:24:22 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@75.23.45.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:09 You folks like puzzles - right? :-) 03:26:50 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:37 This (defmethod aux-compute-applicable-methods ...) seems to have only one purpose - to bootstrap compute-applicable-methods from a regular function to a method of a generic function. 03:27:45 drmeister: yes, but it's way past bed time, so 03:28:03 benny [~user@i577A8935.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:28:06 -!- benny [~user@i577A8935.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:15 You should ask to Pascal Costanza, he's the specialist of CLOS and MOP ;-) 03:28:41 Is compute-applicable-methods-using-classes a method? 03:28:46 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:51 I mean, a generic function, itself? 03:29:06 pjb: No problem - I appreciate any help, suggestions, criticisms and just listening. 03:29:53 -!- stardiviner [~quassel@122.236.242.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:53 At this point where it is going into the infinite loop it is a generic-function. 03:30:32 Perhaps it has been transformed too soon? Or other needed functions are not transformed soon enough? 03:30:34 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:31:26 This code works fine in ECL - the only changes I've made are to add print statements to debug how it interacts with my CL system. 03:32:02 drmeister: what CL is this? 03:33:07 It is ECL code. I'm loading and compiling about 40 -50 source files from ECL within my own CL environment. This problem is occuring at the end of the last one. 03:33:13 It may be something indirect. For example, when you have a bug in print-object, you can easily get infinite recursions, not because of the code in print-object properly, but because the bug makes the debugger be invoked, and the debugger tries to print the objects, so it calls print-object, and provoques a new occurence of the bug, and so on. 03:33:34 loke_: drmeister has been working for some time on his own fork of ECL - quite interesting stuff, actually 03:33:54 p_l|omoikane: what's different about it? 03:34:13 loke_: The core is written in C++ from scratch. 03:34:39 drmeister: but what's different? 03:34:51 drmeister: I don't see any period in your stack frames. You probably didn't paste enough. Have you identified the period? The bug may be in any of the functions in the cycle. 03:34:58 C++ link stuff, i think 03:35:00 loke_: The core interfaces with C++ and exposes the LLVM library to Common Lisp and my compiler compiles to native code using LLVM. 03:35:21 (instead of calling out gcc, nice thing). 03:35:25 loke: All of the C++ code is different, the Common Lisp code is almost pure ECL CL code. 03:35:48 *pjb* is fading away. 03:36:46 loke_: My CL interoperates with C++ - it is the only Common Lisp that interoperates with C++. 03:36:50 drmeister: How does the GC work? I remember seeing in discussions about SBCL and LLVM people mentioning that it's hard to implement a CG in LLVM? 03:37:35 loke_: umm... why would it be difficult to implement GC in LLVM? There are even hooks for certain elements so you can generate GC handling code in proper places 03:37:40 The GC will be a combination of reference counted pointers and some variant of mark-and-sweep. Currently it's all reference counted pointers. 03:38:18 p_l|omoikane: I don't know. I know nothing about LLVM. I'm just repeating what was said. It was mentioned that the biggest barrier to posrting SBCL to LLVM was that the GC won't work. 03:38:44 I think the compiler is bigger :) 03:39:49 -!- sempiternity43 [~sempitern@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:41:16 doesn't sbcl have its own specific problems? like the whole static memory layout thing 03:44:12 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-45-178.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:19 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 03:46:15 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.247] has joined #lisp 03:50:14 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.247] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:20 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has joined #lisp 03:53:05 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-68-3.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:53:50 I've been thinking about whether I could solve my problem by wrapping that aux-compute-applicable-methods within just the right EVAL-WHEN construct. 03:54:42 If I could get it to be ignored during eval but be processed at compile time - that might do the trick. 03:55:08 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 03:55:16 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-121-153.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:56:46 But (EVAL-WHEN (:compile-toplevel) ...) is not considered a safe eval-when. 03:57:54 Does (EVAL-WHEN (:compile-toplevel) ...) ever make sense? 03:57:55 That means it's executed while compiling, but not when the compiled file is loaded, which is probably what you're actually thinking of. 03:58:24 Oh, right. I was focusing on the lack of :execute. 03:58:39 setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 03:58:47 Then does (EVAL-WHEN (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) ...) ever make sense? 04:00:34 Just for yucks I'll try it. 04:01:17 That means it'll be processed by the compiler but not by load of the uncompiled version, basically. 04:01:54 -!- fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:02:49 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.247] has joined #lisp 04:02:55 But it will be processed by load of the compiled version - I think. Let me go look at my eval-when S.O. 04:03:10 fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:18 yes. 04:03:28 well, it'll run when the compiled file is loaded. 04:06:06 knob3212 [~knob@cvx-ppp-66-50-47-24.coqui.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:00 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-161-107.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:09:34 eval-when is implemented by several functions. The eval-when for COMPILE-FILE top-level forms is here: http://pastebin.com/tFLwi1qr The other eval-when used when loading code only checks for :evaluate to decide whether to evaluate the code or not. 04:09:40 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.247] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:10:10 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:10:15 that's correct. 04:11:28 I think my eval-when may not be canonical Common Lisp. The way mine works, if I COMPILE-FILE an (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) then code will be generated in the FASL file that will be evaluated at FASL load-time even though there was no :evaluate in that eval-when. Is that correct behavior? 04:11:31 atrible33 [~atrible33@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:39 yeah. 04:12:21 -!- agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:13:23 So does :evaluate mean "evaluate code that came through the reader" and :load-toplevel mean "evaluate code that is in a compiled FASL file"? 04:13:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:14:49 Because I think that's the behavior that I want. And if that is correct then (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) ...) is a useful variant of eval-when?? 04:14:56 compile-toplevel means evaluate this while compiling. load-toplevel means evaluate this while loading a compiled file. execute means evaluate this while loading a source file. 04:15:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has joined #lisp 04:15:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has quit [Changing host] 04:15:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:17:09 Bike: Thanks! That crystallizes it for me - I think I understand it now. 04:17:12 -!- s-1 [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18:01 that's only for direct top level, i should say 04:18:41 However, just putting an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) ...) around the defmethod aux... and subsequent (let still produces an infinite loop. Douugh! 04:18:50 It's a little different though. 04:18:52 Hmmm. 04:19:11 well, (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) is the same as nothing, i should say. 04:20:15 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.134.209] has joined #lisp 04:25:29 Bike: Yeah. (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) should do nothing. 04:26:47 well, does it loop during compilation or during loading? 04:27:27 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 04:29:36 Uh, that's a good question. 04:31:34 I'm firing it up again to check 04:33:09 -!- p_nathan [~vlion@76.178.163.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:33:42 -!- fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:34:01 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:37:21 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:46 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-23.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:39:49 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:06 I first ran some other smaller tests. (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) XXX) --> XXX is only evaluated at compile time and fasl load time. I tested this in SBCL and my code - the behavior is the same - woot! 04:42:37 Fare - are you online? 04:46:07 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:53:43 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-45-178.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:55:14 -!- Zhivago [~lys@unaffiliated/zhivago] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:41 -!- Recursive [~z_axis@171.216.154.9] has left #lisp 04:58:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 04:59:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:02:52 sdemarre [~serge@55.152-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:06:01 Infinite loop during compilation - I sent an email to Juan. 05:06:31 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:07:30 fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] 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published any code for his cl c++ efforts? 06:55:20 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:55:47 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 06:55:54 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:56:23 *nightfly__* also wonders 06:57:43 nightfly__: didn't you do a repackaging of cmucl without any copyrighted code or something_ 06:58:22 absolutely not :) 06:58:49 might be a name collision though 06:59:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:59:24 mm... 06:59:35 Smushers [~smushers@pool-71-178-96-55.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:52 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:59:58 remeber something when surfing that someone grabbed an old version of cmucl and stripped it out of copyrighted code, and called it nightfly, nighthawk, something lisp something 07:00:05 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:39 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:07:48 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e177113144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:08:40 I hope there's no name collision with the name I'm using right now 07:09:35 Nothing notable with this name, right? 07:10:16 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:10:54 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-229-10.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:11:25 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-199.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:58 nostoi [~nostoi@112.Red-79-153-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:56 lol 07:14:36 cond: outside of CL:COND, Scheme's etc., I suspect there's a CISCO routing protocol trying to grab that name :P 07:16:25 Chaos`Eternal [~chaos@58.39.101.148] has joined #lisp 07:17:42 anaumov [~an@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 07:18:40 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:36 when I type #'exp into the REPL, it self-evaluates to # because #'exp is the name of the function object, correct? 07:23:07 clhs function 07:23:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 07:23:11 clhs function/s 07:23:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_fn.htm 07:23:47 i'm trying to make sure i'm using the terminology correctly 07:24:11 exp is a function object, but #'exp is name of the function? 07:24:46 probably backwards from that would be a better way to think 07:25:21 right, ok - #'exp is the function object 07:25:50 names must be objects too then 07:25:51 zickzackv [~faot@g225051114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:17 gmcastil: normally the word object isn't used like that in cl... 07:26:29 which way? 07:26:37 "names must be objects" 07:26:45 #' returns a function object 07:27:39 i see where i was getting confused i think 07:27:42 names is a symbol 07:27:47 and #' is a short hand for (function ...) 07:28:21 technically speaking symbols are also objects, but that's not how they're normally referred to? 07:28:37 gmcastil: technicallys peaking anything that is a datum is an object, so everything. 07:28:53 right, ok 07:29:22 so if i want to pass the function as an argument, i need to reference the function object with #'exp 07:29:30 yes 07:29:36 or uhm 07:29:37 no 07:29:38 you can treat a symbol sort-of like a hash map. 07:29:50 if you want to pass the function FOO as an object to something, you need to do #'FOO 07:30:03 yeah, that's what i meant 07:30:04 only the name doesn't give you that much. you need to grab the function off the symbol. 07:30:05 otherwise you will pass the symbol FOO, not the function object 07:30:16 zorkmoid, s/function object/function/, 07:30:29 mikaelj: no, function object. 07:30:46 zorkmoid, the "object" part is redundant. 07:31:00 mikaelj: yes, i am being overly clear 07:31:08 if i want to pass exp to another function, i'd need to pass it with #'exp 07:31:51 exp is the name of the function 07:31:53 gmcastil: or you can call function on EXP in the other part of the code. 07:32:06 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:32:13 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:22 zorkmoid: right, i knew that (function exp) was the other way 07:32:50 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 07:32:54 i realize these are probably really basic questions, but i was a little confused by the terminology 07:33:17 in CL pretty much everything is an object of some sort i guess 07:35:07 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:37:39 anyway, later when i want to do something with the function object, i'd use funcall or apply right? 07:38:31 sure 07:39:08 thanks - pretty new to OOP so thanks for the clarification 07:39:10 poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has joined #lisp 07:39:11 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.66.208] has quit [Quit: Harag] 07:39:21 this isn't really related to OOP but ok 07:41:05 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:09 gmcastil: in cl everything is an object, not pretty much everything, but everything :-) 07:41:13 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.66.208] has joined #lisp 07:41:34 -!- minion [~minion@50.7.166.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:41:35 -!- specbot [~specbot@50.7.166.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:41:35 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:56 i knew that, but for some reason i was making a distinction between names and objects 07:43:11 that sounds dumb now that i thnk about i 07:43:13 it 07:43:16 not sure what you mean with "name" 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[~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 09:10:43 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 09:10:51 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 09:10:57 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.66.208] has joined #lisp 09:11:00 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:01 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:12:09 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 09:12:21 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 09:14:02 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbbapftgriwloxwv] has joined #lisp 09:14:09 flubbjlubb [~crimedisp@unaffiliated/flubbjlubb] has joined #lisp 09:14:50 'morning 09:14:57 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-212-250.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:21 *Smushers* tips his hat to frodef 09:15:26 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:15:35 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 09:16:55 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.198.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:18:19 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 09:21:22 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:22:20 -!- Recursive [~z_axis@171.216.154.9] has left #lisp 09:28:03 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:28:15 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:29:55 zorkmoid: Lots of languages say "everything is an object". It's trendy these days. Of course, I don't think those languages include + in their "everything" 09:30:56 Zhivago [~lys@unaffiliated/zhivago] has joined #lisp 09:33:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-253.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:33:15 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-247-171.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:39:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:44 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:41:24 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 09:44:21 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:31 everything is an object in common lisp just because there is not much meaning to the term "object" in common lisp. 09:48:13 Not everything. 09:48:22 multiple-values aren't. 09:48:47 Most things are objects in common lisp because they support the protocols that we expect objects to support. 09:49:03 eql, type-of, class-of, etc. 09:50:06 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 09:52:08 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Hunchentoot 1.2.18, ELS'13 Registration Open, SBCL 1.1.7, CL-PPCRE 2.0.4, DRAKMA 1.3.2, CFFI 0.11.1 09:53:39 Well, yes, an object is whatever the language defines an object as. 09:57:26 rhinux [~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has joined #lisp 10:03:12 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-212-250.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:30 cond: in cl + is a symbol, which is an object.. 10:03:38 Zhivago: huh, multiple values are objects in cl ... 10:06:01 no, they aren't, but you can magically turn them into a list, or bind each one individually, if you catch them at the right time 10:06:56 according to the spec, multiple values are objects in any sense of the word. 10:07:50 this is the point where you tell us the section you're reading 10:08:11 -!- Smushers [~smushers@pool-71-178-96-55.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:11 rudi: any section on multiple values, objects, or the hyperspec. 10:10:00 rudi: multiple values n. 1. more than one value. 10:10:11 rudi: value n. 1. a. one of possibly several objects that are the result of an evaluation. 10:10:25 my point is that "how do I store whatever (foo) returns in a variable and then return it later" can only be done by turning the multiple values that foo returns into a list, and then applying (values) to that list 10:10:33 I don't dispute that each individual value is an object 10:10:50 objects in lisp are ... well, t. 10:10:55 but there's no way of getting your hands on the multiple-values "thingy" itself - it's an implementation detail 10:11:07 (defun objectp (x) t) ;-) 10:11:09 in abcl, it's a Java per-thread array 10:18:06 -!- miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:21:27 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:21:41 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:54 -!- MoALTz__ is now known as MoALTz 10:24:11 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:27:13 rudi: After what you just said, I decided to take a look at the multiple values implementation in ABCL 10:27:27 And I'm a bit confused by something 10:28:13 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.134.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:29:07 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-nqxcllrjvecolwtn] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 nilsi [~nilsi@student-247-68.eduroam.uu.se] has joined #lisp 10:41:43 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.161.76.166] has joined #lisp 10:44:44 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:05 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:50:19 ok? 10:50:21 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 10:51:37 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:55:21 hehe 10:55:41 loke_ is so confused that he can't speak :-) 10:55:48 Oh, sorry 10:55:51 Had to work :-) 10:56:27 Anyway, I was looking at the result from a function that returns multiple values, and it sets thread._values to the values 10:56:49 Now, after such function is called, I don't see that value being reset? 10:57:17 Wouldn't it be necessary to clear the _values member after every function call? 10:58:02 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 10:58:17 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:02:59 minion: memo for drmeister: eval-when :execute is for when LOADing the source file (or evaluating the form at the REPL). :load-toplevel is for when LOADing the fasl file. 11:03:00 Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks. 11:03:08 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@student-247-68.eduroam.uu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:36 -!- rhinux [~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:04:21 pjb: you love minion don't you .. 11:05:04 I hate when nobody gives the help I would give when I'm not here. 11:05:44 haha 11:06:26 knobo [~bohmer@81.175.44.217] has joined #lisp 11:06:44 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:06:46 gmcastil: all lisp data is an object, in the OO sense. Called 'lisp object' to distinguish them from 'CLOS instances', but you can define methods on them as well (they have a system class): (defmethod inc ((object integer)) (1+ object)) ; no need for int vs. Integer or NSNumber as in some other "OO" programming languages 11:07:26 SanderM [~quassel@2001:610:180:1:e2cb:4eff:fe41:41d] has joined #lisp 11:07:40 i sometimes think i am the only person who uses plists... 11:07:53 When can I connect with slime to jscl? ;) 11:08:15 zorkmoid: several objects are not AN object. 11:08:18 knobo: C-u M-x slime RET /path/to/jscl 11:09:23 zorkmoid: you have to do a reification here, eg. using the special operator multiple-value-call. 11:09:27 fzappa [~user@int.emakina.nl] has joined #lisp 11:09:29 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:31 aha.. right.. But I was thinking that I run it in a browser. 11:09:42 And connecting to my browser with slime 11:09:44 agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:43 knobo: you have to start a SWANK server in it on a specific port, then M-x slime-connect RET localhost RET 11:11:34 Would the browser allow me to listen to a port? 11:11:50 loke_: no, the only thing to reset would be whether multiple values were returned. 11:12:14 Would have to use websockets. 11:12:16 I think 11:12:18 knobo: I think it's possible, IIRC that's how mozrepl works (javascript REPL in firefox for emacs) 11:13:20 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:18:31 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:20:06 Saying that multiple-values isn't an object makes no sense. 11:20:40 an object has an identity, a state and behavior. 11:20:48 what does multiple values have? 11:21:00 it's a meaninless question. 11:21:16 multiple-values is a plural of values, i.e. plural of objects. 11:21:21 The thing is that you cannot bind multiple values to a variable (since they don't have AN identity). 11:21:39 Yes, and see the difference between objects and object. Objects are not AN object! 11:21:40 again, makes no sense. 11:21:57 Objects are SEVERAL objectS! not AN object! 11:22:15 you're beating a dead horse 11:22:24 You can't send a message to several object, only to a single one. 11:22:33 H4ns: just trying to make frodef understand. 11:22:57 pjb: of course it's not an object, beacuse that's a meaningless propostion. 11:23:03 and let's keep it polite, and not call people dead horses :-) 11:23:16 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:23:45 Just talking about it reveals a failure to understand multiple-values. 11:24:09 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.198.143] has joined #lisp 11:24:22 Well, absence is not the same thing as negation. 11:24:43 frodef: would you be a prolog programmer per chance? 11:25:04 CL through and through ;) 11:27:37 so, just like nobody in their right mind would say "everything is an object except the set of parameters to a function isn't". 11:29:19 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:29:33 multiple-values are very much the mirror image of function arguments. 11:31:44 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:33:35 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-nqxcllrjvecolwtn] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:33:53 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-jqezjztbxvthztkk] has joined #lisp 11:35:20 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:37:10 -!- agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:25 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.210.80] has joined #lisp 11:40:30 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.210.80] has quit [Changing host] 11:40:30 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 11:41:24 iter .. i dislike you 11:41:43 what is difference between returning (values) or just NIL if it behaves in the same way? Just to make code look better? 11:42:16 return (values) to make code look better of course 11:43:00 hitecnologys: it's the difference between 0 and 1. 11:43:22 hitecnologys: compare (length (multiple-value-list nil)) vs. (length (multiple-value-list (values))) 11:43:55 As I wrote above, absence is not the same thing as negation. 11:44:30 pjb: wow, how is that possible? 11:44:52 nil returns one value. (values) return 0 values. 11:45:12 weird 11:45:36 pjb: and there you've shown that multiple values exist, but they are not an object. 11:45:45 pjb: even though they behave like an object (they have a length) 11:45:56 I feel like C programmer when function returns 0 values 11:46:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:46:22 H4ns: no, multiple-value-list uses the special operator multiple-value-call which performs a reification. There was no object before. 11:46:31 And how can 0 things exist? 11:46:41 hitecnologys: there is no practical difference, unless you insist on using the number of values returned as carrying meaning. 11:46:42 pjb: you can't be wrong, i know. 11:47:51 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.161.76.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:49:17 H4ns, pjb: thanks 11:50:22 Most typically, (values) is used for interactive functions that you don't want/need the REPL to print out NIL for. 11:50:43 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:02 nilsi [~nilsi@student-247-68.eduroam.uu.se] has joined #lisp 11:53:20 frodef: yeah, that's the reason why I asked about (values) and NIL 11:54:07 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:33 -!- Aiwass [~user@unaffiliated/aiwass] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:18 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.101.229] has joined #lisp 12:01:17 frodef: Sure, and are you going to say that function arguments is an object as well? :) 12:01:40 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:01:43 In some systems they are, but in CL they aren't. Which is fine. 12:01:56 The issue was someone claiming that everything in CL is an object. 12:03:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:04:51 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 12:05:38 So.. I most certainly said m-v isn't an object, and even just talking about it is meaningless. 12:05:51 ...right? :) 12:06:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:06:18 is it not the case that every value in CL is an object? My understanding is that CLOS defines a special kind of objets, that are standard classes, but other kind of objects do exist in CL... 12:07:00 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@student-247-68.eduroam.uu.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:09 -!- knob3212 [~knob@cvx-ppp-66-50-47-24.coqui.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:19 nilsi [~nilsi@student-247-68.eduroam.uu.se] has joined #lisp 12:07:38 dim: yes every value is an object, and yes the types of objects are divided into a (substantial) class hierarchy. 12:08:05 is only a point of view, :) 12:08:47 dim: all lisp data is an object, in the OO sense. Called 'lisp object' to distinguish them from 'CLOS instances', but you can define methods on them as well (they have a system class): (defmethod inc ((object integer)) (1+ object)) ; no need for int vs. Integer or NSNumber as in some other "OO" programming languages 12:09:04 rszeno: relativist! 12:09:34 pjb: that's what I meant here. so values are objects, right? 12:09:42 yes. 12:09:55 I mean each value, ie. each data is a lisp object. 12:10:00 multiple values are no such thing. 12:10:05 variables are no such thing. 12:10:13 lisp programs are no such things. 12:10:18 lisp syntax is no such thing. 12:10:33 your momy is not a lisp object. 12:10:59 Have you been drinking with younder today? 12:11:12 macros are also objects? 12:11:13 Nothing yet, that must explain. 12:11:26 macros are functions, are lisp objects. 12:11:50 pjb, and functions are not objects? :) 12:11:54 Yes they are. 12:12:08 he said they are 12:12:10 You can do: (defparameter *a-macro* (macro-function 'cond)) 12:12:14 then we have big problems 12:12:31 which would be? 12:12:38 inheritance? 12:12:59 So? 12:13:03 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:13:08 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:12 inheritance is not a lisp object. 12:13:16 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:22 indeed, it is not. 12:13:27 is a property of object 12:13:39 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:44 and a object carry with him what it have 12:13:55 rszeno: a property of class, rather. 12:14:05 rszeno: so what are those big problems? 12:14:23 combining objects 12:14:31 How is that a problem? 12:14:36 -!- Vicfred [~anon@187.206.26.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:14:45 There are structures to do that. 12:15:03 inheritance is do in term of 'and', C inherit type A 'and' B 12:15:22 when A and B are base classes of C 12:15:35 i have no business in this discussion, but rszeno: (c2mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'function)) => (# #) 12:15:35 So that cannot be types. 12:15:35 rszeno: a cl object is not the same as a java or c++ instance 12:15:41 so you can't say C is A 'or' B 12:15:47 rszeno: Don't confuse type and class in CL. 12:15:50 nor can it be objects. 12:15:53 Only CLOS classes can be inherited by other CLOS classes. 12:16:19 or built-in classes yes. 12:16:19 Zhivago, this is why i said is a point of view 12:16:28 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16:34 types and classes in CL are not a point of view. 12:16:35 rszeno: Many points of view are wrong. 12:16:44 There are objective technical differences. 12:16:56 for me are symbols not objects since i can build my own syntax and semantic 12:17:34 symbols are lisp objects: (class-of 'hello) --> # 12:17:38 i think this make lisp special 12:17:46 Indeed. 12:17:47 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:53 (defparameter *a-symbol* 'hello) 12:18:31 and: (defmethod m ((x symbol)) (list x 'is 'a 'symbol)) 12:18:40 rszeno: I think that you need to think carefully about what you mean by object if you do not want to consider symbols to be objects ... 12:18:57 rszeno: Certainly in CL, symbols are objects. 12:19:07 rszeno: 12:19:13 bleh 12:19:14 is a matter of implementation 12:19:22 There's no need to think carefully. Just read the glossary: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_o.htm#object 12:19:27 rszeno: you're arguing with standardised terminology. It's not a matter of implementation. 12:19:44 if it's common lisp, then a symbol is an object. Period. There's no two ways around it. 12:20:10 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has joined #lisp 12:20:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has quit [Changing host] 12:20:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:20:26 we talk about lisp or common lisp? i don't denny the need of standards 12:20:41 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:20:44 rszeno: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf  have a look at this article 12:20:46 rszeno: if you wish, you can introduce the term boobliglooba, and define it. Perhaps you want to say that symbos are not boobligloobas, but multiple-values are boobligloobas? 12:20:50 this is #lisp, so we talk about common lisp. 12:20:56 rszeno: clears up many symbol mysteries 12:21:03 rszeno: In what lisp are symbols not objects? 12:21:07 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:11 rszeno: type /topic RET 12:21:33 ok, :) 12:21:48 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:22:40 teggi [~teggi@123.21.172.81] has joined #lisp 12:24:10 antoszka, i read this many years ago, :) 12:24:47 I'm surprised you have any doubts, then :) 12:25:16 i don't have doubts, as pjb said is a technical problem 12:26:01 but in my opinion viewing things as object create problems 12:26:12 rszeno: What is an object? 12:26:23 If you treat objects in OOP terms, probably yes. 12:26:36 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:26:45 What problems would that cause? It seems to cause CL no problem. 12:26:46 But OOP is just a special case, an evolutionary appendix. 12:26:55 :) 12:26:55 Sounds like gibbering. 12:27:20 -!- gmcastil [~user@207-224-44-98.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:27:28 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.112.132] has joined #lisp 12:28:26 antoszka: well, the point is that lisp objects are OO objects: they have a class, you can define methods on the class and/or on the object, etc. 12:28:47 pjb: hi! 12:28:55 Hi! 12:29:09 how are you? 12:29:10 but you cannot necessarily inherit from them. which makes cl as a whole object-based, but not object oriented 12:29:17 -!- knobo [~bohmer@81.175.44.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:40 hans: Java doesn't allow inheritance from all classes, either. 12:29:48 hans: I don't think that's significant. 12:30:09 Gooder [~Gooder@192.200.155.32] has joined #lisp 12:30:20 Sealed classes are a feature of many languages. 12:31:10 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:31:24 H4ns: you could inherit from built-in-classes if you define the right meta-class for it. 12:31:30 i'm not debating that. it is just that i read the original question from hours ago in the sense "if everything in cl is an object, then why can't i inherit from integer" 12:31:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:36 pjb: you could. i can't 12:32:09 MOP is learnable. 12:32:57 Well, that should have been simply answered as "in your implementation it is sealed". 12:33:42 I think that CL sucks pretty hard in terms of extensibility and genericity, but that's orthogonal to the OO issue. 12:33:49 lest anyone think that pjb is speaking practically, no CL implementation's MOP, past or present, allows you to subclass integer 12:34:28 ccl says: The class # was specified as a super-class of the class #; but the meta-classes # and # are incompatible. 12:34:28 12:34:33 huangho [~guest@177.2.158.118] has joined #lisp 12:34:38 Zhivago: right. that's why "everything is an object" is a red herring 12:34:42 I would bet that it would allow me to write a meta class that is compatible. 12:34:56 I'll take that bet 12:35:02 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 Krystof: I may take some time to do it ;-) 12:35:35 pjb: it would still not give you a way to change the + operator so that it does something different for your integer-inheriting class 12:35:43 with the caveat that you need to do it with the documented facilities of the metaobject protocol in your implementation 12:35:53 conformingly, please. 12:35:58 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-71-246-218-114.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:36:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:36:09 knobo [~bohmer@81.175.44.217] has joined #lisp 12:36:26 (and of course then you need to be able to instantiate your new integer, and also to use it in computations, for it to be in any way practical) 12:36:38 saying "I could do this if I rewrite the world" is just not interesting 12:36:58 H4ns: but you can already do (shadow '+) (defmethod + () ) 12:37:08 m( 12:37:46 Krystof: of course. 12:38:22 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:57 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:41 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:40:49 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:11 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:44:20 agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:41 pjb: But that would require rewriting all the current #'+ functionality. You can't just extend it for a new class, can you? 12:46:27 So, we just move to the sane position of "CL is hard to extend; write your own stuff on top". 12:46:29 (shadow '+) (defun + (&lexpr etc) (reduce #'add-two etc)) (defgeneric add-two (x y)) (defmethod add-two ((x number) (y number)) (cl:+ x y)) 12:47:37 ah, ok 12:50:55 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:20 capcrunch [~capcrunch@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:47 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:17 sykopomp: and then you pass one of your "integers" down into a library which tries to pass it on to cl:+ 12:55:44 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:58:27 bolcselo [~x@pool-71-246-218-114.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:38 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 12:58:39 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 12:58:46 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:58:53 hi 12:59:12 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:59:12 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 12:59:12 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:59:17 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-76-119-140-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:23 -!- zickzackv [~faot@g225051114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 13:01:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:08 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 13:02:59 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:05:06 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 13:08:47 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:10:16 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 13:10:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 13:10:17 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 13:10:38 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@student-247-68.eduroam.uu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:09 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:13:58 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 13:17:44 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:17:50 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:10 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@c-76-119-140-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:22:35 -!- capcrunch [~capcrunch@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:31 capcrunch [~capcrunch@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:43 -!- epsylon [~epsylon@193.183.98.140] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 13:25:47 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 jackdaniel [~jack@94-40-76-2.tktelekom.pl] has joined #lisp 13:31:35 hi ho (: 13:33:38 -!- dudebr0 [~dudebr0@unaffiliated/dudebr0] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 13:33:38 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:35:22 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has joined #lisp 13:35:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:35:22 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has quit [Changing host] 13:35:22 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:35:24 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 13:35:55 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:39:21 rudi: yes, I'm aware. 13:40:46 is there a subset of Common Lisp for 8-bit microcontrollers, like PyMite exists for Python? 13:42:01 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 13:43:10 rgrau [~user@80.Red-83-39-216.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:14 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:43 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:53 -!- capcrunch [~capcrunch@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:07 scheme... 13:44:23 MeatGoy [~kahu@c213-89-204-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:44:55 Scheme is not a LISP-2 13:45:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:46:00 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:46:28 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:46:48 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 the names of standard CL symbols make up 11KB. 13:48:52 you can encode them more efficiently 13:51:17 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:31 loke_tab [~AndChat48@bb219-74-48-169.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:52:18 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 13:52:37 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has joined #lisp 13:52:41 Denommus: you could look at ecl or something not sure if it runs on 8bit 13:53:32 Testing irc client on android 13:53:36 zorkmoid: I don't think ecl's runtime library fits in any 8 bit mcu's RAM. 13:54:02 it doesn't have to fit in ram... 13:54:03 stassats: that gives an idea of the scaling mismatch between CL and tiny mcus. 13:54:12 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:43 Denommus: the answer is "no" :) 13:54:52 -!- Gooder [~Gooder@192.200.155.32] has left #lisp 13:55:12 pkhuong: but i doubt you would run the compiler on it 13:55:30 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-247-171.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 13:56:11 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-214.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:16 I think any subset would be so different from CL it might as well be a scheme. 13:56:59 smarter would be to just write assembly 13:57:07 and use a sensible assembler, ala midas or something 13:57:20 or meta-ii or whatever 13:57:46 or a forth 13:58:06 -!- loke_tab [~AndChat48@bb219-74-48-169.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:58:08 meh, silly language forth. 13:58:22 "if it does not exist, it is not smart" 13:58:45 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:59:06 pkhuong: it would be a subset of scheme too, and i know which subset i would like more 13:59:58 stassats: really? r4rs is pretty tiny. 14:01:02 summer camp kids play with scheme and continuations on PICs here. 14:01:24 popd 14:01:28 sorry 14:01:57 _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has joined #lisp 14:02:38 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:02:53 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 -!- tophalf01 [~tophalf01@c-71-207-142-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: I must go. My people need me.] 14:03:15 -!- bind [~bind@D57DEC5A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:03:33 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 14:04:06 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:13 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@94-40-76-2.tktelekom.pl] has left #lisp 14:08:40 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:10:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has joined #lisp 14:10:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has quit [Changing host] 14:10:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:11:06 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:48 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-214.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:33 -!- xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:53 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-214.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:59 xpoqp [~xpoqp@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 14:14:00 -!- xpoqp [~xpoqp@80.203.124.203] has quit [Changing host] 14:14:00 xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:17:02 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-199.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:28 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.66.208] has quit [Quit: Harag] 14:18:39 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:48 beaky [~beaky@bba76950.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 14:19:49 hello 14:20:00 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:20:03 what is functional programming? 14:20:07 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.106] has joined #lisp 14:20:24 It is programming with functions. 14:20:42 It is programming that works. 14:20:45 ah 14:20:47 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.211.26] has joined #lisp 14:20:54 beaky: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=functional+programming 14:20:59 (Okay, more seriously, it's programming without side-effects.) 14:21:16 I read a lot of blogs and stuff throughout the web, and everyone says different things about it 14:21:22 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.211.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:27 the only common thing was "programming with mathematical functions" 14:21:28 nyef, could be functiona and can have side effects 14:21:32 beaky: What is a function? 14:21:43 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.211.26] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 a function is like a relationship between sets of values 14:22:02 or is it actually a unit of computation? 14:22:15 jasond [~user@of1-nat2.aus1.rackspace.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:18 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:22:19 beaky: A mapping from domain to range, yes. 14:22:23 ah 14:22:26 join #lispweb 14:22:32 beaky: So, what's confusing about that? 14:24:27 I guess a language that officially supports functional programming might have a lot more: first-class functions, HM type system, etc. 14:25:10 Or it might not. 14:25:17 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:25:24 So, I guess that clears that up 14:25:31 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:25:43 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 14:26:46 are there are functional programming languages without any constructs resembling first-class functions? 14:27:04 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 14:27:47 I'm fairly sure that we're badly off-topic by now. 14:28:23 yeah sorry :( 14:28:52 I'm aware that common lisp is much more than functional programming 14:29:32 Common lisp is a procedural programming language, but it has support for a functional style of programming. 14:29:52 That is, it makes it easy to produce procedures that implement functions. 14:31:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:31:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:31:48 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:31:52 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:35:16 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-214.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:34 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:02 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.211.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:40:31 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:40:31 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:40:31 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:40:53 Gmind [~TheTrung@123.16.97.94] has joined #lisp 14:40:54 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:41:23 Hi, any suggestion about a good book for me to recover Lisp fun ? 14:41:59 recovering lisp fun? 14:42:09 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:09 minion: tell Gmind about PCL 14:42:09 Gmind: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:43:06 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 Anyone know a good site with a comparative listing of different programming language benefits/disadvantages? 14:44:11 compared in different aspects like web applications etc.? 14:44:42 who are you, minion ? 14:44:43 common lisp will make you feel smug 14:44:53 I want to sell my work on common lisp, but I'd have to show some tangible benefit over php or other alternative languages like python etc 14:44:56 haha stassats 14:44:57 that's the main benefit 14:45:10 who are you, minion: ? 14:45:16 ahungry: That seems to be more to do with the library/module ecosystem than language. 14:45:22 Gmind: minion is a robot 14:45:35 minion: are you bot? 14:45:36 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 14:45:38 minion: tell me about youreself 14:45:39 hitecnologys: what's up? 14:45:44 perl is probably the strongest of all languages due to cpan I'd think? 14:45:46 minion: who are you 14:45:47 why do you want to know? 14:45:50 daimrod, I don't want to learn lisp again, just for some fun 14:45:52 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1896:64db:b3ee:137e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:04 As far as ecosystem 14:46:21 that can inspire me to make Lisp Compiler on .NET again 14:46:37 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1896:64db:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 14:46:46 minion: who are you ? 14:46:47 why do you want to know? 14:46:48 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:04 I think assembler is best language for web development. I'll make you fell like "oh my god what is this?". 14:47:17 minion: because you're weird and damn cool 14:47:18 indeed, because me re weird and damn cool 14:47:18 lol 14:47:19 assembly language I mean 14:47:26 Most assembly i've wrote was x86 hello world 14:47:40 I thikn one that would read stdin and print it out also 14:47:46 Please discuss such things somewhere else. 14:47:46 but I didn't play around too much more 14:47:47 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 14:47:48 but I've seen some sites on assembly 14:48:05 that's totally awesone 14:48:12 cost too much time to write real asm code that work 14:48:27 sorry Xach - on topic, do you know of any resources comparing CL vs other languages? 14:48:47 Gmind: it's definitely worth it and you can reuse your code later 14:48:50 ahungry: here's the one i refer to: "CL is better than everything else" 14:48:57 lol 14:49:00 lol 14:49:15 ahungry: nope. 14:49:46 CL is better that anything else if you like CL and you can write good programs on it, that's true 14:49:58 but it doesn't make it better actually 14:50:02 that's sad =( 14:50:11 hitechnologys, with asm is another story of routine, but I like to program in asm before it come out of fun boundary 14:50:23 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:50:56 huh ... 14:51:19 Gmind: I'm hitecNODAMNHlogys, btw 14:51:40 -!- fzappa [~user@int.emakina.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:40 ahungry, paul graham, why lisp? 14:51:45 hitechnologys: you're a bot too ? 14:51:55 Gmind: maybe 14:52:05 maybe you want to take this to #lispcafe. 14:52:33 H4ns: new channel ? 14:52:48 sorry if I break #lisp rules 14:52:49 Gmind: other channel, which is what matters to me. 14:53:43 yes 14:53:55 but less fun than here 14:54:35 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:55:16 who created minion ? 14:56:17 was it chandler ? 14:56:35 in Lisp ? 14:56:49 yes 14:58:16 nauar [~Grunt@14.Red-88-17-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:24 zickzackv [~faot@g226062036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:07 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:59:11 -!- huangho [~guest@177.2.158.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:00:15 it's so smooth compare to rudybot and something-bot 15:00:24 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:02:03 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 Gmind1 [~TheTrung@123.16.97.94] has joined #lisp 15:02:59 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:56 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:35 -!- Gmind [~TheTrung@123.16.97.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:57 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.216.52] has joined #lisp 15:05:58 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:11 Denommus: asking for a subset is asking for a compiler. 15:06:38 Denommus: there are lisp compilers that target small processors, there are lisp implementations running on 8-bit processors. 15:07:15 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.112.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:57 Denommus: So the question is how to write a compiler for a subset of CL targetting a 8-bit processor. 15:08:52 pjb: no. the question was "does a compiler for a subset of cl exist for 8 bit microcontrollers". 15:08:57 Notice that you don't need to store all the symbol names in the binary objects. 1- CL has no primitive to get the name of a function. 2- you can exclude from your subset operators such as do-symbols. 15:08:58 The next question is -- why would you want one? 15:09:16 It might be fun writing such a compiler, and it might be fun using it. 15:09:30 Even using C on an 8 bit machine is often more painful than it is worth. 15:09:50 perhaps the first question should have been, why is there a C compiler for those processors, and not a lisp compiler? 15:09:57 Well, in the name of fun many otherwise ridiculous things are done. :) 15:10:13 Because it's easy to write shitty C compilers. 15:10:30 why isn't it easy to write shitty CL compilers? 15:10:34 We could also write shitty lisp interpreters or compilers, if that's all it takes. 15:10:45 Because CL has a more demanding run-time, for a start. 15:10:45 Denommus: it is easy, but it takes rather long. 15:10:58 Zhivago: the notion of subset! 15:11:19 So, the subset without GC? 15:11:20 Zhivago: Python also have a more demanding run-time than C, and yet PyMite exists 15:11:32 Zhivago: PyMite has GC ;) 15:11:37 if you want, but GC is not a problem. 15:11:41 adelgado1 [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:56 More restriction of data types. 15:11:57 PyMite requires at least 4k of ram. 15:12:23 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:24 On your basic 8 bit machine you might have only 256 bytes of ram, and half of that might be memory mapped registers, or what-not. 15:13:00 Zhivago: did I input a limit for the RAM? I thought I was talking about a implementation for a 8-bits microcontroller like PyMite, was I? 15:13:05 forth + vmgen, c compiled after, is probably the smallest thing 15:13:26 Well, if your 8 bit machine has megs of ram, then CL should be fine ... :) 15:13:34 Go knock yourself out 15:13:38 zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has joined #lisp 15:13:51 I just have difficulty imagining anyone building such an 8 bit machine these days. 15:13:54 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:14:09 Even arduino has 32-bit processors 15:14:37 it's more out of curiosity after I found out about PyMite. I think I'd use something more powerful, too 15:14:51 But then, 32-bit processors are physically heavier than 8-bit ones, so for a small drone, you might prefer a 8-bit processor. 15:14:51 Like an arm chip? 15:15:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:15:14 Well, then you need to pay for the complex bus required to access your megs of ram really slowly. 15:15:15 An ARM chip has 32-bit and hundreds of megabytes on chip :-) 15:15:31 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:16:00 inb4, rpi 15:16:03 Zhivago: there's a guy who booted linux on a 8-bit processor, hooking on it a DRAM that he drives by soft from the micro processor! :-) 15:16:04 -!- MeatGoy [~kahu@c213-89-204-206.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:16:10 Real slow to boot linux too. 15:16:40 An ARM chip has a definite paucity of registers, though not as bad as an x86. 15:16:47 -!- Gmind1 [~TheTrung@123.16.97.94] has left #lisp 15:16:55 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:06 -!- zickzackv [~faot@g226062036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:17:11 zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has joined #lisp 15:17:13 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:17:41 zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has joined #lisp 15:17:44 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:17:56 Compilation finished: 14 style-warnings [4642.62 secs] 15:17:59 jikes.. 15:18:19 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.130.71.40] has joined #lisp 15:18:19 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.130.71.40] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:19 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:18:21 zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has joined #lisp 15:18:23 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:18:53 zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has joined #lisp 15:18:58 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:19:29 zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has joined #lisp 15:19:35 -!- zifeitong [~zifeitong@bv.pub.lifetoy.org] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:20:44 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:21:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21:47 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:01 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:22:43 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.106] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:57 zorkmoid: if the code is public, it'd make an interesting resource to benchmark SBCL. 15:25:18 pkhuong: nope, this was with cmucl as well... 15:26:01 zorkmoid: I'm pretty sure it would be comparable on SBCL ;) 15:26:07 bunch of compile time heavy work to populate tables ... didn't realise it wuold take this long to regenerate it though! 15:26:29 the fasl is kinda big too :-) 15:27:20 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:29:31 ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-216-221-56-133.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 15:29:42 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-216-221-56-133.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:42 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 15:30:24 -!- rgrau [~user@80.Red-83-39-216.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:37 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:32:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:33:45 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:33:48 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:33:53 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:03 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-241-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:36 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 15:35:44 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:37:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:24 Is there a way to check if a quicklisp library has been loaded or not? 15:40:16 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 15:40:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:57 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:41:54 fsvehla [~fsvehla@77.116.247.95.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:25 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:27 ahungry: what do you mean by "loaded"? 15:43:18 I want to load a file via (load "/path/file.lisp") but I have this file being used by a core image which already has the libs loaded 15:44:04 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host31-52-58-47.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:20 ahungry: add any very specific symbol to file and check if it's there. 15:44:49 thanks, how can I check if a symbol exists without throwing an undefined symbol error? 15:44:55 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:59 clhs f-s 15:44:59 Matches: file-stream, find-symbol, float-sign. 15:45:06 clhs find-symbol 15:45:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 15:45:13 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 thanks 15:45:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:45:25 checking for a package could be better, maybe? 15:45:43 why do you need to check anything? 15:45:53 if the library is loaded, it won't be loaded anew 15:46:27 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.208.162] has joined #lisp 15:47:43 kanru` [~kanru@118-168-245-145.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:49:32 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:49:52 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:51:30 d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:53:09 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:53:15 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:54:29 doomlord_ [~servitor@host31-52-58-47.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:06 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-dev] 15:59:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:01:12 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:01:14 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going to lunch] 16:01:20 oh nice, thanks stassats didn't even realize that 16:02:16 ahungry: didn't even realize what? 16:02:38 that quicklisp wouldn't have issues if I had repeated calls to quickload a package 16:05:23 josemanuel [~josemanue@169.234.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:05:39 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 16:06:37 -!- banjara1 [~Adium@172-7-148-12.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:04 when I run this code in terminal, it displays characters correctly. But it does not in slime. 16:07:07 (flexi-streams:octets-to-string (drakma:http-request my-url) :external-format :utf-8) 16:07:51 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:57 teggi: you should set LANG because slime sets encoding according to your LANG value 16:08:16 hitecnologys: slime doesn't do anything of the sort 16:08:53 I set (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) 16:08:54 stassats: but how does slime determine needed encoding? 16:09:14 but nothing changes 16:09:17 hitecnologys: it always uses utf8 16:09:25 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-jqezjztbxvthztkk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:34 stassats: lol, i didn't know that 16:09:46 stassats: thanks for information 16:10:17 your implementation may be not putting utf-8 out 16:10:51 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog161.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:10:58 but if it works in the terminal, that just means that the graphical environment, from which emacs was started, doesn't have the same environment variables as the terminal 16:11:04 in terminal with sbcl, it display right characters 16:11:11 displays 16:12:03 AeroNotix [~xeno@abog161.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:12:35 how can I set it? 16:12:40 things started from xdm or gdm, or any other dm abomination, don't usually have the same environment 16:13:07 -!- flubbjlubb [~crimedisp@unaffiliated/flubbjlubb] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:09 I run emacs from the terminal too, emacs & 16:17:19 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:17:27 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-168-245-145.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17:37 satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:49 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:20:18 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 16:21:06 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.66.208] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:58 xan_ [~xan@12.226.90.154] has joined #lisp 16:22:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:25:40 milkpost [~dec@192.133.84.6] has joined #lisp 16:26:06 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:12 Mandus [~aasmundo@128.39.36.106] has joined #lisp 16:28:14 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:28:22 -!- SanderM [~quassel@2001:610:180:1:e2cb:4eff:fe41:41d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:11 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vebevyjcmudxxvxb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:57 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:32:36 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 16:36:43 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.208.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 16:37:08 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:38 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:39:11 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.171.75.threembb.ie] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:39:15 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:40:59 huangho [~guest@143.54.6.173] has joined #lisp 16:41:31 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:23 how to test if some instance belongs to specific class? 16:42:41 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has left #lisp 16:42:49 (typep var 'clasname) 16:42:56 wow, thanks 16:44:18 (eq (class-of instance) (find-class class-name)) 16:44:22 depending on what you mean. 16:44:47 I want to test if some instance is instance of some specific class 16:44:56 there's an ambiguity here. 16:45:13 do you mean a direct instance? or an instance of a subclass of that specific class? 16:45:15 or instance of class which is subclass of some class 16:45:40 I want to test if instance is somehow related to some class 16:45:40 so patrickwonders's answer. 16:46:08 btw, is there a way to test for direct instance? (I'm just curious) 16:46:18 What I proposed. 16:46:35 *patrickwonders* nods 16:46:47 -!- adelgado1 is now known as adelgado 16:47:07 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 16:47:29 Aw, how silly I am. Thanks a lot, guys 16:47:29 -!- xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:37 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:48:10 xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has joined #lisp 16:51:53 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.198.143] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:52:40 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.211.26] has joined #lisp 16:56:11 Yuuhi [benni@pD9F993CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:30 (eq (type-of instance) 'class-name) 16:56:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:27 -!- beaky [~beaky@bba76950.alshamil.net.ae] has left #lisp 16:58:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:02:53 tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has joined #lisp 17:03:03 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:00 stassats: (list (type-of 42) (class-of 42)) --> ((integer 0 1152921504606846975) #) 17:04:09 not counting that type-of is implementation dependant. 17:04:38 -!- BeLucid_ [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:48 no 17:05:10 "For objects of metaclass structure-class or standard-class, and for conditions, type-of returns the proper name of the class returned by class-of if it has a proper name, and otherwise returns the class itself." 17:05:22 yes, and for the others? 17:05:35 racist! You're programming only for a minority! 17:06:13 others are not portable with class-of either, i don't see what's point you're trying to make 17:10:03 the point that I'm making is that types are not classes, so you should not compare (type-of anything) with 'some-class. 17:11:13 type-of is exactly specified for standard-classes 17:11:41 mutley89 [~mutley89@host86-150-204-63.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 (eq (class-of instance) (find-class class-name)) is bogus if it's not standard/structure-class as well 17:12:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:48 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 17:16:20 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@77.116.247.95.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:55 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 hiato [~hiato@196-215-121-183.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:22:11 Does ABCL support FFI to C libraries? 17:22:18 yes 17:22:31 Cool... 17:22:50 I couldn't find proof of this in their FAQ or website. 17:24:11 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:50 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:25:30 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:28:12 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:33:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:33:31 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:09 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:38 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:37:20 I'm having the most bizzare experience on OSX. Two laptops, both using 10.8 and Clozure 1.9. Both with the latest quicklisp. But swank won't run on one. 17:37:32 says something about an unimplemented fd-handler 17:37:46 I'm totally baffled 17:38:36 has anyone seen behavior like this? 17:42:43 different slime versions? 17:42:59 different ~/.swank.lisp files? 17:44:19 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:29 I haven't gotten to slime yet 17:44:37 it causes a stack trace when starting clozure actually 17:44:53 I'll checkout .swank.lisp 17:44:59 didn't know that file even existed 17:45:11 I removed and reinstalled quicklisp on both machines and had the same problem 17:45:20 would be nice if I only had to remove that file :) 17:46:07 sorry.. not starting clozure but when I start swank from clozure 17:46:22 jweslley [~jweslley@187.28.203.194] has joined #lisp 17:47:06 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:48:53 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-153-76.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:09 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 photex: post error logs? 17:52:29 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 Adlai: I've been trying to ssh into that machine so I can make a lispaste but I haven't been able to connect (I'm at work and it's at home). My wife probably closed the laptop lid :/ 17:54:05 I'll have to take a look again later. 17:54:30 I've always hated it when laptops changed power state when I closed the screen... makes carrying them around so awkward 17:54:33 good luck later 17:54:38 thanks 17:55:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:57:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:00:20 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 18:06:27 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 18:08:13 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-120-146-70-87.lns9.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:10:01 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:58 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:34 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog161.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:28 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 18:13:45 -!- nauar [~Grunt@14.Red-88-17-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 18:14:22 is there a way to define my own class that consists only of a (integer 0 (expt 1 60)), declare methods for it, and have it occupy a single 64bit slot? Ie. get some pointer tagging for it, to conserve space, but have all advantages of CLOS? 18:15:00 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:11 nope. 18:15:11 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:28 pkhuong: thanks, though. 18:15:51 well, you could use a dictionary to intern objects keyed on the integer value. 18:16:46 in sbcl, (print-unreadable-object) gives me identities with LSB set (ie. odd locations). is this the tagging? I'd have thought that it would be stripped before printing a "location". 18:18:23 why would we? 18:22:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:23:33 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-153-76.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:24:20 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:25:26 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny249.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:26:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:26:51 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-bfqsxmscalvuixxg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:27:48 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-jyblufpwpkupeqrp] has joined #lisp 18:27:59 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:28:21 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33:05 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-jyblufpwpkupeqrp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:33:41 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:34:09 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-bcgafgnqxlaaiose] has joined #lisp 18:35:31 tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:19 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:22 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-153-76.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:39:13 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-bcgafgnqxlaaiose] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:42 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-fhwrtiazfyvgjhse] has joined #lisp 18:42:30 nilsi [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has joined #lisp 18:43:42 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:43:47 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-fhwrtiazfyvgjhse] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:41 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-241-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:47:23 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ipopdvjbsngnbceq] has joined #lisp 18:48:30 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-38.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:40 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: Segmentation Fault] 18:52:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:53:31 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ipopdvjbsngnbceq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-226-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:54:05 jute [~Thunderbi@2.171.5.106] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 18:54:59 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@2.171.5.106] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:28 jute [~Thunderbi@2.171.5.106] has joined #lisp 18:55:53 Joreji [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:42 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757e57.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:53 -!- jute is now known as opossum1 19:05:05 -!- opossum1 is now known as jute 19:05:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has joined #lisp 19:05:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.7.103] has quit [Changing host] 19:05:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:05:14 flip214: On 64-bit SBCL, low-bit-clear indicates a FIXNUM. On 32-bit SBCL, low-bit-set indicates a pointer type. There's no reason for P-U-O to strip tag bits, and it can actually be helpful for it NOT to strip tag bits. 19:05:57 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:10 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-114-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-226-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:14:06 jenia_ [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:14:10 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:14:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-226-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:14:42 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has joined #lisp 19:16:43 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:23 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:23 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 19:26:39 Is there a way to dump all my definitions in the current package into a file or onto the screen? 19:26:46 (in SBCL) 19:26:51 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:26:58 you could list all symbols in a package 19:27:19 jute: if you think of "function sources", then not really 19:27:20 invariant [~invariant@unaffiliated/invariant] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 -!- invariant [~invariant@unaffiliated/invariant] has left #lisp 19:27:52 h4ans, that was my intention 19:28:35 i wanted to see what actualy is working 19:28:43 -!- vhost- is now known as jnerula2 19:29:04 -!- jnerula2 is now known as vhost- 19:29:33 pnpuff [~name@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:30:09 -!- huangho [~guest@143.54.6.173] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:30:20 pierpa [~user@95.234.221.161] has joined #lisp 19:31:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@12.226.90.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:33:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:34:03 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:43 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 capcrunch [~capcrunch@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:53 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:16 davazp [~user@178.167.157.176.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 19:44:37 -!- capcrunch [~capcrunch@pc-33-7-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:44:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-226-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:46 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:48:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-226-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:49:21 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.172.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:08 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:36 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:52:39 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p549C458B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:19 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:53:20 [6502] [4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has joined #lisp 19:53:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 <[6502]> is it a bug that '(#1=#:foo #1# #1# #1#) is displayed as (#:FOO #:FOO #:FOO #:FOO) ? 19:54:35 no... 19:55:52 [6502]: it might or it might not. try setting *print-circle* to t to see if/how it changes. 19:55:55 if *print-circle* isn't on, that's fine 19:56:01 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:56:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:37 <[6502]> oh.. ok, then it works 19:56:52 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:57:15 <[6502]> i assumed that (read-from-string (prin1-to-string x)) was either fail or return something EQUAL to x 19:57:25 how do I check if a lisp program is being called from the CLI or not? 19:57:34 <[6502]> eiter fail => either going to fail 19:57:49 ahungry: That would be implementation-dependent. 19:57:54 sorry, sbcl 19:57:54 At best. 19:58:15 ahungry: Check for a pty somehow 19:58:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-226-104.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:26 Checking for sb-ext:*posix-argv* doesn't seem to work, unless at least something is passed in 19:58:36 How do you check if a C program is being called from the CLI or not? 19:58:39 like, I can run ./script.lisp 1 <- that would work to let me know its on the cli 19:58:44 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:59:00 -!- poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:59:07 but if I am in a repl and load the file, I want it to do some things automatically 19:59:12 On the other hand, the --script option for SBCL probably has some observable side-effect... 19:59:15 isatty? 19:59:21 man isatty 19:59:21 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/isatty.3.html 19:59:48 Hang on, there's an equivalent in CLHS, isn't there? 19:59:57 clhs s-i-p 19:59:57 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for s-i-p. 20:00:00 interactive-stream-p or something like that? 20:00:08 xan_ [~xan@12.226.90.154] has joined #lisp 20:00:09 clhs i-s-p 20:00:09 Matches: input-stream-p, interactive-stream-p. 20:00:24 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:00:26 clhs interactive-stream-p 20:00:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intera.htm 20:00:32 but it's not equivalent 20:00:41 I distinctly remember it because it is-or-was broken on Win32 due to the win32 implementation of isatty returning something posixly-incorrect. 20:01:07 sdemarre [~serge@55.152-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:01:33 Yonkie [~Yonkie@ip.82.144.199.214.stat.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:34 -!- sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:03:42 hi 20:04:23 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 invariant [~invariant@unaffiliated/invariant] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:47 <[6502]> why is #:-10 printed as #:|-10| ? 20:10:04 Potential number syntax. 20:10:14 <[6502]> hmmm 20:10:34 <[6502]> yeah... the uninterned marker is not part of the symbol... it makes sense 20:11:16 #:10 is also printed as #:|10| 20:11:25 <[6502]> yes 20:11:57 <[6502]> it's not ambiguous when reading... but as a regular interned symbol it would be 20:13:33 <[6502]> it's not just a potential number thing... even #:. is printed as #:|.| 20:14:20 [6502]: . is a special character in Common Lisp that indicates a cons cell, it makes sense 20:15:27 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:45 you can't create a symbol ".", just like you can't have a symbol "10" 20:15:58 <[6502]> Denommus: \. or \10 20:16:06 Also consider the result of (make-symbol "foo"). 20:16:20 [6502]: test '\. or '\10 on the REPL and see the result 20:16:34 clhs 22.1.3.3 20:16:35 Printing Symbols: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_acc.htm 20:17:17 <[6502]> Denommus: '\. displays |.| as expected, what do you mean? 20:18:21 [6502]: then I'm not understanding your confusion. If you understand that \. is |.|, why don't you understand that -10, as a symbol, must be printed as |-10|? 20:19:20 -!- sdemarre [~serge@55.152-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:19:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:37 <[6502]> Denommus: I simply noticed that #:-10 is not ambiguous and is read as an uninterned symbol, yet is printed with escaping 20:19:58 <[6502]> Denommus: I'm not saying this is bad or anything... it just sort of surprised me initially 20:20:30 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:40 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20:55 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:26:45 [6502]: oh, right. Well, it's because a number, alone, can't be used as a symbol, unless it's scaped :) 20:27:23 (setf *print-base* 2) 20:27:46 -!- jweslley [~jweslley@187.28.203.194] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:29:12 stassats: the funny thing is that this setf always prints "10" as the return value 20:29:35 every base is base 10 20:30:20 Even negabinary is base 10. 20:30:22 and technically, when you change the *print-base* value, '\2 is not read as a number, only as a character 20:30:41 and 1 is not a character? 20:30:57 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:30:58 (Not that you can set a negative base in CL.) 20:31:01 you can even (defparameter \2 ), if you want 20:31:19 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 20:31:27 stassats: yes, but it is read as a number 20:31:32 "A pentagram approaches a circle for suitably large values of 5." 20:32:00 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50a8b.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:32:04 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a8b.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:33 -!- milosn_ is now known as milosn 20:34:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:59 zickzackv [~faot@g226062036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:45 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:42:46 linuxos [~linuxos@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:28 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:49:30 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-120-146-70-87.lns9.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:50:13 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:06 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:55:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:08 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:58:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:59:35 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:06:09 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:06:29 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-214.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:14 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-223.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:33 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:11:44 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.66.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:33 *stassats* was surprised by the disassemble, CMP RDX, 100000000100000000000000010111, but then i remembered that i did the above (setf *print-base* 2) 21:12:52 "that can't be a 32-bit number, can it?!" 21:12:57 why after : (setf *read-base* 2) , (type-of '\2) , #:+ , + I get (TYPE-OF '2) on sbcl-1.6.7 and (TYPE-OF '|2|) on sbcl 1.6.6 ? thx a lot ! 21:13:23 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@guestnet.franz.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:52 stassats: NIL looks less random that way ;) 21:13:56 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@2.171.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:45 Heh. That's LIST-POINTER-LOWTAG all right... 21:15:24 how to make slot type declaration work in SBCL? 21:15:36 and static space start. 21:16:56 Denommus: what is not working? 21:17:36 Denommus: declaim (optimize (safety 3)) around the class definition. 21:17:57 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 21:18:26 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757e57.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:18:36 pkhuong: thanks 21:19:28 urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-21.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:33 nilsi__ [~nilsi@host-95-199-212-250.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:23 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:56 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has joined #lisp 21:24:32 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e183233083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has 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quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:38:51 Recursive [~z_axis@171.212.255.32] has joined #lisp 21:40:23 <[6502]> brb 21:40:28 -!- [6502] [4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:45:16 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:27 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:49:00 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:53:00 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:11 -!- invariant [~invariant@unaffiliated/invariant] has left #lisp 22:00:28 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e183233083.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:01:12 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p549C458B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:08 -!- mgile 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gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums.] 22:46:11 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:09 -!- Recursive [~z_axis@171.212.255.32] has left #lisp 22:48:49 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:16 -!- schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:38 zRecursive [~z_axis@171.212.255.32] has joined #lisp 22:53:10 -!- zRecursive [~z_axis@171.212.255.32] has left #lisp 22:58:30 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@guestnet.franz.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:54 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:01:20 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.212.255.32] has joined #lisp 23:05:50 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@guestnet.franz.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:34 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:10 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 23:19:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:02 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3f70.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:00 hi 23:24:35 I finally got rid of Java 23:25:46 -!- jenia_ [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:26:47 is it normal for calls to (error ...) to have the 'error' underlined in emacs/slime? 23:28:06 yes 23:28:28 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:30 (it's normal for slime) 23:29:31 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 23:29:52 but why do you ask about the underlining? it will give you the exact error/warning/note message 23:29:52 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ~] 23:29:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:55 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-153-76.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:08 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:51 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl5-136-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:33:47 slime underlines compilation warnings and errors as they occur, but it also underlines the symbol error when it's the first atom of a list (even in code that, when compiled, doesn't produce a warning/error) 23:33:55 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:14 it does? that's just your color scheme 23:35:55 stassats: ah... good! i don't like it, and so am glad it's just my problem, and not "the world's" 23:36:24 position your cursor on the symbol error, and do M-x customize-face 23:36:59 stassats: thanks 23:38:37 i run (setq font-lock-maximum-decoration '((lisp-mode . nil) (emacs-lisp-mode . nil) (scheme-mode . nil) (t . t))) to reduce the amount of pointless rainbow effects 23:39:04 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@12.226.90.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:57 i only find highlighting of comments, strings and reader conditionals necessary, i.e. separating code from non-code 23:41:37 xan_ [~xan@12.226.90.82] has joined #lisp 23:42:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-21.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:44:49 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:19 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.101.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:30 agumonkey [~agu@238.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:31 -!- _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has quit [Quit: gn8] 23:48:57 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:49:17 ASau`` [~user@p5797F028.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:19 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937461.dsl.bell.ca] has joined 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