00:03:23 yeah I sorta wondered what would happen if I decide to try and run this with clozure or something 00:03:41 so far I've just stuck with sbcl because people seem to favor it 00:04:11 but, since this is a mac specific emulator it might be nice to go all in and take advantage of the clozure cocoa stuff 00:08:25 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.209.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:09:31 satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.185] has joined #lisp 00:10:57 clozure cl is pretty rad (sponsored) 00:13:26 is there a way to make slime signal a break for an arbitrary thread? i have control over the creation of the threads, so i could get hold of a thread object. this is SBCL + bordeaux-threads 00:13:30 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:15:02 madnificent: `C-c C-x t', pick the thread then `d'? 00:16:45 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:00 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-54-114.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:49 Joreji [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:52 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-236.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:18:56 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 00:19:29 adeht: that would be awesome 00:20:04 People seem to like Lisp Machines. Excluding the architecture, the kernel, the filesystem, and the all-Lisp emacs, what did Lisp Machines have that we do not have today in Common Lisp on top of a Linux box using GNU Emacs? 00:20:11 adeht: thanks! that's extremely handy right now 00:20:24 np 00:20:25 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.6] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 Aethaeryn: lisp all the way down makes things easier to debug. i also think they had a versioned filesystem. and there is a geek factor connected to the devices 00:21:24 Aethaeryn: I never used a lispm but from what I read, much more hackability 00:21:37 Oh, and graphics. Forgot about that. 00:21:47 Obviously things like QT and GTK are not written in Lisp. 00:22:18 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:22:23 The most critical point, I suspect, is that they are very unavailable. 00:23:07 Weren't lisp machines the birth place of much of the Cg/visual effects industry too? 00:23:23 I suspect that if they were commonly available the attitude would be more along the lines of 'well, they were nice for 30 years ago, but ...' 00:23:26 they were massively influential before the rise of C++/sgi 00:23:40 ... err C++ and Sgi workstations 00:24:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:24:29 I think that you might want to review how many were sold, and of those how many went in that direction. 00:25:25 At my last job I worked with a guy named Doug Roble, he was telling me about using Lisp back in the day 00:25:36 and how they used to color the frames after rendering by hand 00:26:01 I wonder if we could get a quasi-lispm today on top of the Linux kernel and a Linux filesystem for modern compatability purposes and because I suspect the kernel would be the hardest part to do. If we used quicklisp as a basis for a package manager (which would have to use a different backend for the non-CL parts in the package manager), what components would be missing? I suspect the most obviously missing complex not-Lisp component w 00:26:09 weird times if you got started after Linux workstations became the norm 00:26:56 I think Lisp-on-x86 efforts might have failed because they probably started at the low-level and worked up, thus providing no reason to use them over Linux, instead of the top-level (i.e. the most noticeable parts like a browser and a terminal/shell/utils and a full-CL emacs) and working down. 00:27:10 Sorry, LispM-on-x86. 00:27:48 well you can hack on movitz, though it's not linux-based :) 00:28:23 Aethaeryn: possibly also because there's no incentive to make it aside from hacksturbation? 00:28:23 well kernel design is way more interesting than making end user apps, Aethaeryn 00:28:23 aethaeryn: I think that's a reasonable approach, but then you need to consider what you mean by lispm. 00:28:29 Yes, but can you do meaningful production work on it? If you piece-by-piece replace parts of a Linux distro, starting with basically a Linux distro with first-class Lisp support because its package manager talks to Quicklisp, you might get users right away. 00:29:13 Zhivago: Well, it's kind of a Ship of Theseus problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus 00:29:34 Zhivago: You start with something clearly not a LispM, but useful immediately to people now, and piece by piece replace components until it clearly is. 00:29:55 Yes, but what does "clearly a LispM" mean? 00:29:58 And since it would use Quicklisp as a package manager for the CL components, nothing already existing would be duplicated. 00:30:19 Zhivago: Well, as close as you can get to a LispM on x86, amd64, and possibly ARM. 00:30:31 Aethaeryn: except for my shell being lisp, what would the difference be to my current setup? 00:31:06 what would the advantage of this system be if the hardware itself didn't support parts of lisp... as in, you cons something and that's a hardware operation 00:31:16 wasn't that an aspect of lisp machines? 00:31:44 madnificent: Well, it would probably have the C parts of GNU Emacs rewritten in CL *or* an emacs written from scratch in CL such that it could have an elisp compatability mode. It would have a web browser, a shell and terminal, and maybe a desktop environment. And a package manager that treats CL programs as first-class citizens in the distro. Those would be more immediately visible than starting bottom-up on the hardware or kernel lev 00:32:11 aethaeryn: So, a historical reproduction? 00:32:23 Aethaeryn: climacs, closure, stumpwm, etc.? 00:32:30 photex: Well, a posix process is a reasonably useful machine. 00:32:33 Aethaeryn: there's a clicky page describing how far we are on that... somewhere 00:33:22 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:34:44 adeht: Perhaps. It would basically be another layer on top of Quicklisp, which would basically serve as a package manager for the non-Lisp parts and the parts Quicklisp doesn't handle. It would probably use .deb files for the "foreign" programs at least initially, even though I'm a Fedora person, because there's lots of .deb files that work, so it would minimize the non-Lispy effort that needs to be done. 00:34:54 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 aethaeryn: That doesn't really sound compatible with a historical reproduction. 00:35:25 The main thing is that it would default to Lisp things where possible for editors, shells, terminals, desktops, etc. If such things exist. It would basically be a distribution rather than a centralized project that writes things from scratch, where possible. 00:35:44 agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:05 Zhivago: No, it would not be a historical reproduction. It would be a very, very low-budget way to get about half way to a Lisp-style OS using what already exists in use today as much as possible. Basically, worse is better. 00:36:36 Zhivago: Of course, if apps that clone historical elements of LispMs were added to Quicklisp (or already exist there), then that can be done. 00:36:52 aethaeryn: Sounds laudible, but it then brings you back to "what does it mean to be a lispm?" 00:37:13 I think that once you can answer that question, the rest is a simple matter of engineering. 00:37:32 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-195-159.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:14 Zhivago: It's a general-purpose computer designed to efficiently run Lisp as the main software language. It just does that through entirely software-support means, rather than through hardware means. Basically, at some point, all that will be left is a kernel, and at that point if someone writes the kernel, it's close enough to a LispM for me. 00:38:21 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@134.71.168.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:01 But I think motivating someone to write a kernel would be considerably easier if the rest of it is collected in one place. 00:39:32 Aethaeryn: i doubt the lisp community has enough momentum, however the cliki page (if you manage to find it, i can't) should give you a good idea of how far you'll get quickly 00:40:31 aethaeryn: Sounds uselessly vague, to be honest. 00:42:39 Aethaeryn: if you're hunting for the cliki page, i couldn't find it anymore. but it should mention Hemlock, that X server which was written in lisp, stumpwm, and some others 00:42:43 The easiest way I can think of approaching this is to write a quick Lisp script to either be a .deb or a .rpm package manager. Those packages would be for, say, sbcl/emacs/etc. as well as the non-Lisp apps like Firefox. This package manager would then also be integrated with Quicklisp for the packages that Quicklisp includes. Basically, just making a Linux distro using Lisp instead of various other languages (e.g. Fedora uses Python a 00:44:54 -!- arpunk` is now known as arpunk 00:45:09 WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 00:45:12 So the main apps necessary at first, rather than a kernel, would be: a package manager, a shell, an emacs, and a graphical web browser. Some or all of these may already be written sufficiently to be included. 00:45:57 At first it would be a Linux distribution *really* optimized for Common Lisp development (and perhaps other Lisp/Scheme, depending on user contributions of course) and with defaults to Lisp-based applications where they exist. 00:46:05 Zhivago: Is this less vague? 00:46:32 doesn't really seem like it would have many benifets 00:46:37 Aethaeryn: maybe you'll find https://github.com/skypher/paktahn interesting 00:46:54 I think that you need to remove 'optimized' from the description. 00:47:09 It sounds like saying "We should make something relaly good by making a really good thing". 00:47:18 Which is true, but ... vague. 00:48:00 Zhivago: i think Aethaeryn is brainstorming, and i think that trying to be formally correct during that process is counter-productive 00:48:21 madnificent: Yes. 00:48:46 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:49:17 I'm not suggesting being formally correct. 00:49:26 Anyhow, good luck. 00:49:34 Zhivago: I'm using the definition from Wikipedia. It wouldn't be called a Lisp machine, anyway. 00:49:38 It's probably trademarked or something. 00:49:51 And not technically correct unless a kernel's written in Lisp, I suppose. 00:50:00 The definition from wikipedia is pretty much incompatible with your design above. 00:50:01 *rszeno* symbolics 00:50:13 Which brings you back to ... what does lispm mean here? :) 00:50:37 Is it a matter of user experience? 00:51:15 Kind of related speculation: A while back I read a paper criticizing some of design decisions made in the final Common Lisp spec because they were made with the assumptions that future CPUs would have microcode written for them to optimize lots of opperations. Has anyone ever done this? 00:51:37 Basically, yes. It would just be a Linux distro where the *experience* is optimized for Common Lisp, treating Lisp (and perhaps Scheme) as first class citizens in the distro itself, and defaulting where possible to Lisp apps, and making it quite clear which elements are missing for a true Lisp machine (other than the kernel and filesystem of course). 00:52:05 I've started a Lisp Tutorial which mixes Lisp philosophy with with "Writing your own regex parser" (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5412/Writing-own-regular-expression-parser) and "Hierarchical State Machines" (http://www.drdobbs.com/hierarchical-state-machine-design-in-c/184402040). I'm trying to illustrate how to use lisp to solve needs/problems. It's about half done (https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch/wiki/How-to-Program-with-Lisp-1), would anyone like 00:52:32 And if so, where could I put it? 00:52:33 nightfly__: this was done. 00:52:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-54-114.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:52:57 Aethaeryn: So, user experience, but not developer experience, as such? 00:53:28 Zhivago: Well, the users would be developers, probably. 00:53:35 I really don't see an average user using it. 00:53:40 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has left #lisp 00:53:42 nightfly__: before the micro-processors, one could usually micro-program the processors. This ability was temporarily lost with the micro-processors. But the most powerful and recent micro-processors are againa micro-programmable (but nowadays, it's not usually done, but by Intel, to correct FDIV-like bugs). 00:53:58 An average user would probably be very confused by the emacs-style keybindings, for one. 00:54:22 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:29 Aethaeryn: The problem with the developer experience is that the lispm architecture is quite different to one of a multiprocess posix machine. 00:54:44 nightfly__: now of course, if you consider virtual machine, the VM interpreter is "micro-code", so you obviously can micro-program any "instruction" you want. Eg. clisp has a lisp VM with micro-code for CAR, CDR, etc. 00:54:57 Aethaeryn: So much of that experience would need to be different. 00:55:08 Average users are confused by EVERYTHING! 00:55:14 It's a definition. 00:55:24 confused = average user. 00:55:26 Zhivago: Yes, it wouldn't be the lispm, it would be *a* lispm, i.e. how to start from scratch on x86. Which means that it would have to have compatability with posix (at least for all the apps that aren't written for it). One way to ensure this would, imo, to start with the apps rather than the low-level stuff. 00:55:36 as an average user I can vouch for pjb`s statement 00:56:11 Zhivago: I doubt it will ever get enough usage share for, say, a Firefox port. Which is why we have to have Unix compatability, unfortunately. 00:56:13 aeth: Well, it sounds at least doable -- building a mock environment that superficially resembles a lispm on top of linux. 00:56:23 Exactly. 00:56:34 Aethaeryn: Funny, I'm trying to do something similar, but from the top down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV2kAcd5E20 00:57:04 Aethaeryn: Making a full Lisp environment. 00:57:50 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 00:58:10 -!- deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-45-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:58:18 WarWeasle: Perfect, perhaps we can collaborate to some extent. Especially since you're working on graphics rather than the aspect I'd want to work on, which would be the distro experience. 00:58:21 Aethaeryn: mostly, what lisp machines had that even emacs doesn't have (but it comes close), is that Just typing (defun system::some-internal-function () ) you could modify some function deep inside the machine. Imagine modifying the linux kernel just typing a defun! no reboot, no module unload/reload, no nothing, just patch the live kernel in real time. 00:59:13 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 00:59:14 You can do that in emacs, but only for emacs lisp code. Since the emacs core is written in C, you have to compile a C program and reboot emacs to make modifications there. 00:59:47 Have you seen Litable? 00:59:53 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:02 WarWeasle: thanks for the opengl tutorials, i hope i'll be able to find the time to read about them. 01:00:07 s/about// 01:00:08 pjb`: Yes, that would be amazing! But if we're going to one-by-one replace components so that there's a useful product at every point, I'm thinking that the kernel would probably come last. This puts me in an interesting situation, since the goal is a LispM-like experience but it wouldn't be a LispM until every last component is replaced, right? 01:01:03 Aethaeryn: well, I don't mind virtual machines. I don't care much if there's a linux kernel under my lisp machines. 01:02:02 On the other hand, remember GNU vs. Linux. They left the kernel as last component, and Linux came and eat the world. 01:02:11 s/eat/ate/ 01:02:32 pjb`: I guess you can see it more as a competitor to GNU rather than Linux. 01:02:40 Well, the lispm didn't have a kernel as such. 01:02:44 If you use the GNU, Linux, and GNU/Linux distinctions. 01:02:55 And what we consider to be kernels, these days, are essentially VM providers. 01:03:19 In the posix model each process would correspond roughly to one lispm. 01:03:43 pjb`: by replacing components top town, you'll be able to gradually dig deeper and deeper when modifying things. i'm wondering what the security implications for something like that would be, and how you'd manage the user rights. 01:03:56 In any case, it's easy to start. Just boot a linux with /bin/init some lisp implementation. Have a look at https://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 01:03:56 And this is probably the boundary that's hardest to cross -- trying to make a distributed lispm, or trying to shove everything into one process. 01:04:21 It sounds like you're trying for the former, but I might be mistaken. 01:05:10 pjb`: Yes, the main issue at first would probably be making an emacs clone in CL that is compatable with elisp so the existing code isn't useless. Since it's not already done, I'm assuming it would be the hardest part of the initial phase. 01:05:33 pjb`: Since the C components of emacs would completely defeat the point of the shell+emacs+terminal+utils being in Lisp. 01:05:36 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 01:07:24 There's Hermlock, it's usable. In any case, if you're writing a lisp machine, you will rewrite the editor, since it's the basis of the user interface. Have a look at Oberon (the system), or Acme (Plan 9). 01:07:33 Yes. 01:07:45 what a day. 01:07:52 I discovered ERC + Gnus tonight. 01:08:29 Ralt: there are all kinds of applications running on emacs. 01:08:32 pjb: I guess it would essentially be an editor and package management system on top of an existing Linux distro, which would emulate the LispM experience as much as possible without being able to directly hack the kernel or the elements you're using that use non-Lisp languages. 01:08:39 Ralt: That's why emacs is called a lisp machine. 01:09:03 Aethaeryn: you've got a plan, implement it! :-) 01:09:20 pjb: Yes, I'm just trying to narrow it down. #lisp has been helpful. 01:09:46 aeth: So, multiprocess or singleprocess? 01:09:47 There are a lot of lisp components that you can integrate. 01:09:50 i think the everything-must-be-lisp/smalltalk/etc mentality is what results in marginalization of those languages, while more pragmatic approaches (clojure/emacs/ruby/objective-c) brought most of the value to the mainstream 01:09:55 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-178.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:59 d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has joined #lisp 01:10:10 erikc: Yes. I agree entirely. 01:10:20 Ralt: after toying with Gnus for about a full day, it still doesn't make me happy. i'm iterested if you found good resources. 01:10:27 erikc: Also, the rejection of the process model. 01:10:50 madnificent: what doesn't make you happy? 01:10:57 I can read emails and write emails 01:11:13 html emails are displayed in text/plain 01:11:13 yea, the image model contributes to it 01:11:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:11:38 Ralt: i couldn't get it to store the sent emails on the server. at least, that was what annoyed me most. 01:11:51 erikc: luckily for me I am interested in what brings value to me, not to the mainstream 01:12:59 madnificent: I'm using gmail, so it's easily done 01:13:08 Zhivago: It looks like multiprocess is possible. 01:13:45 aethaeryn: Sure, but it will also require a radically different approach to the lispm. 01:14:23 erikc: It wouldn't all be Lisp, out of necessity. Lisp is too small to have this distro+editor adopted for useful general purpose tasks. Even if it would eventually use a Lisp kernel, it would need a C compiler as the first thing ported, probably. 01:14:28 Ralt: do gmail tags work as expected? 01:14:37 aethaeryn: So it would probably be useful to think about it a bit first. 01:14:54 madnificent: I don't use much of them, but the ones I have are correctly organized in groups, yes 01:15:00 Zhivago: Yes. I do not wish to clone lispm, I want to say, "What would the lispm guys do if they had to start from scratch *today*?" 01:15:25 (Perhaps there are people who worked on Lisp Machines in #lisp right now.) 01:15:34 aeth: Ah! Well, that's a very different proposition to what you were saying earlier. 01:15:45 erikc: that's right, but there's still emacs. 01:16:04 Zhivago: Sorry, I'm trying to be brief because I can easily write way too much on IRC and flood out a channel if I'm not careful (especially if I have lots of coffee like now). I guess I edited out something important. 01:16:48 aethaeryn: Well, it was the 'provide superficial lispm user experience' bit. 01:16:57 Aethaeryn: there's a C compiler https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis 01:17:41 erikc: Awesome. Then "only" a kernel, a filesystem, and a replacement to X would be necessary once the editor is done... maybe? 01:17:54 satshabad [~satshabad@host-134-71-206-106.allocated.csupomona.edu] has joined #lisp 01:18:07 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog202.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 01:18:52 Zhivago: Consider it very superficial then. Google seems to be detailed manuals XOR broad overviews when it comes to LispM. 01:20:18 aeth: So, does it end up being a co-operative set of linux processes running lisp programs, along the lines of android? 01:20:46 Aethaeryn: or an old version of X? X was originally written in lisp. 01:20:51 Zhivago: Yes, it would be basically like Android. 01:21:19 Aethaeryn: How would you create a "safe lisp" environment? The Reader macros will get you. 01:21:24 Well, that sounds doable, and in that case you wouldn't need to replace the kernel, filesystem, X11, etc. 01:22:02 Well, the kernel and filesystem, no. X11, maybe if someone prioritizes it enough and makes something cool. 01:22:12 You'd mostly need to establish a useful IPC framework and put a coordination system over that. 01:23:03 War: Well, if he has processes, then those can be used for sandboxing. 01:23:38 Aethaeryn: one of the hardest challenges in the mid-long term, seem to be that you don't want a regular user to change services which they aren't allowed to change. (eg: as a regular user, i shouldn't be able to edit the cron service) 01:23:50 pjb: Cool. I did not know that. 01:24:38 madnificent: Yes, but it would definitely be mid to long term. I think the easiest approach would be to just write an emacs that gradually eats up more of the OS. 01:25:03 Aeth: So, single process, then? Or what does 'eat up' mean here? 01:25:20 Zhivago: Well, replace the capabilities of. 01:25:59 Aethaeryn: see my url above. emacs already eats everything! :-) 01:26:00 Aethaeryn: sounds sane 01:26:01 Single process wouldn't make much sense if it's to provide a useful terminal replacement imo. 01:26:20 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:27:04 pjb: Yes. An elisp compatability layer (if possible) would mean that it could run things like a web browser, a file manager, an IRC client, and so on. Since emacs can. 01:27:05 Then in what respect would emacs be eating? 01:27:22 As a UI and IPC coordinator? 01:27:33 Just boot emacs on linux and you have an emacs lisp machine. 01:27:49 pjb: I don't like how emacs handles the shell. 01:27:58 M-x eshell RET 01:28:03 pjb: but this is #lisp so we like common lisp, so we want a common lisp machine 01:28:21 (since you only installed emacs on the kernel, there's no bash to run M-x shell, so you have to use M-x eshell . 01:28:33 madnificent: sure. Now let's just rewrite emacs in CL. 01:29:02 pjb: someone's doing it in clojure: https://github.com/hraberg/deuce 01:29:05 In any case, I think we will have to rewrite emacs in CL, because GNU emacs people are turning away from CL. 01:29:16 gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 01:29:20 pjb: I'm aware of eshell, yet I use a konsole+tmux instead of eshell. 01:29:33 Aethaeryn: then you're not ready for the lisp machine. 01:29:45 pjb: do you use eshell 01:29:50 Neither :-( 01:30:07 Aethaeryn: I use emacs+tramp instead of tmux. 01:30:17 adeht: I use eshell exclusively. 01:30:20 I've given up on tmux when I discovered tiling window managers... 01:30:41 Emacs is a tiling window manager :) 01:30:43 sellout: ok.. I remember playing with it once, but documentation was relatively sparse? 01:30:46 pjb: i doubt it's going to happen. again, not enough momentum. though i'd happily try to run my elisp scripts on top of a common lisp core 01:30:59 can I spawn multiple eshell? 01:30:59 adeht: Oh, its improved immensely recently. 01:31:04 Ralt: Yup. 01:31:20 sellout: good to know.. maybe I'll look at it again when I have time 01:31:30 Well, if you have to wait for lispers to retire to have time to write interesting lisp code, sure, the momentum won't be great. 01:31:47 sellout-: how? M-x eshell just gets me back the opened one 01:31:59 Ralt: C-- M-x eshell 01:32:20 C-- = ? 01:32:20 My monitors are simultaneously too big and too small to effectively use a tiling WM for everything. At 1920x1080, a split down the middle tile is too narrow for websites that assume 1024x768 (and sometimes now not even that) as a minimum resolution, meaning horizontal scrollbars in Firefox. Meanwhile, a fullscreen Firefox is too *large* for many website designs, especially old websites that don't have a fixed width or max width. 01:32:38 So I just settle for terminal tiling via tmux and tiling in emacs. 01:32:51 unfortunately, C- is taken by my terminal. 01:33:10 you can script ratpoison or stumpwm to split it in the proportions you want. 01:33:11 Ralt: C-u should work as well. 01:33:30 hm 01:33:32 it does 01:33:35 pjb: Probably. 01:33:35 Ralt: C-u and C-- are the standard command-argument keybindings. 01:33:37 what does that do exactly? 01:33:52 C-u - = C-- 01:33:55 Ralt: you can also rename-buffer btw 01:34:10 I think an ultra-bloated emacs clone that provides a Lisp machine experience would probably wind up being an emacs, a terminal, a tiling window manager, and a graphical web browser. 01:34:16 (or rename-uniquely) 01:34:42 So you would basically be able to run any graphical application within one of that emacs's buffers, I guess? 01:34:59 an interesting project is exterminate 01:35:10 it's a terminal in a chrome web app 01:35:13 maybe just start by rewritting the c++ bits of your favorite browser in cl 01:35:28 so you get a webkit... meaning you can open images and html pages in iframes 01:35:34 Aethaeryn: I can already browse graphical websites with emacs w3m 01:35:56 using gtk 01:36:01 Ralt: it lets you give a numeric argument to a command. Often for something like "repeat" (Like `C-u 7 `). In the case of eshell, `C-u 7 M-x eshell` would create the buffer `*eshell*<7>`. Without an actual numeric argument, it just grabs the next available one. 01:36:15 It would be interesting if the end result is something circular. E.g. the emacs would be able to have a graphical, an in-terminal, and in-browser views, and then the emacs would have a written-in-Lisp web browser, so you would then be able to run the emacs in the browser in the emacs. 01:36:17 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 01:36:18 sellout-: oh, ok 01:36:20 rszeno: yes.. and in text mode you could use cacaview or whatever :) 01:36:31 does w3m support js? 01:36:31 And if you give it an argument that matches a shell that already exists, itll switch to that one rather than making a new one. 01:36:49 sellout-: yup I see 01:37:23 Ralt: there was w3m-js but I never tried it 01:38:15 A completely pure Lisp web browser would also implement its JavaScript in Lisp. And it would probably also have compile-to-JavaScript capabilities (yes this already exists) for web clients. So interestingly enough, you would compile Lisp to a JavaScript written in Lisp. Perhaps a workaround would allow running a native subset of Lisp in-browser? 01:38:16 a interpreter for js is not big deal 01:38:33 Of course this is very long run. 01:38:34 Aethaeryn: javascript was also initially implemented in lisp iirc 01:39:39 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:50 howdy all 01:39:50 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40:24 nobody mention lush and eclipse, :) 01:40:25 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 01:40:31 how can I embed some quicklisp files into a core dump so nothing is loaded externally? 01:40:34 http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/js2/semantics/ 01:40:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:41:05 ahungry: https://github.com/Ralt/mdtransform/blob/master/save-image.lisp 01:41:06 Hmm... I guess three package managers would be necessary then. A "foreign" package manager for non-Lisp things, such as gcc and the Linux kernel; an interface to quicklisp; and a package manager for packages specific to the emacs clone that are not in quicklisp either because they're too specific (I guess) or because they're written in elisp and run via a compatability layer 01:41:21 I am trying to save-lisp-and-die after doing a few ql:quickloads, but if I then run the core image as a non-privileged user I get a permission denied as it tries to write to the quicklisp setup directory 01:41:54 I don't have issues to write to the quicklisp setup directory however... 01:42:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@177.224.209.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:42:14 I want to compile a core image to be called by other programs on a web server 01:42:24 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@host-134-71-206-106.allocated.csupomona.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:42:28 so the http user will be calling this core as a --core option for --script via sbcl 01:42:48 but http user does not have a home dir and I dont want it tied to one user 01:43:00 i want it to be a shared core that all --script style calls can use 01:44:29 ahungry: why would it try to write to the ql dir? are you still using it in your init file? 01:44:49 sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.185.16.78] has joined #lisp 01:45:28 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:50 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:46:01 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:34 (try --no-userinit/--no-sysinit if you're using sbcl) 01:46:53 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:47:17 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:30 How do people deploy lisp applications 01:49:11 http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=deployment 01:49:27 Thx 01:50:12 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:19 there isn't any lisp-based solution to handle deployments though 01:50:26 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:50:29 something like capistrano or fabric 01:50:35 oh btw 01:50:48 can I do stuff like git tag etc from asdf? 01:50:58 if I want to use it for releases scripts et al. 01:51:12 is there something ant-like in Lisp? 01:51:33 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:37 Id say no for trading with asdf 01:51:46 Tagging 01:52:27 adeht: thanks ill try that 01:52:51 Ralt: asdf is the lisp ant. 01:52:53 Ralt: you can extend asdf 01:53:24 adeht: Ah, sorry, I just got around to your link https://github.com/skypher/paktahn because I had about 20+ tabs open during the discussion and I'm not very good at multitasking. :-) 01:53:26 how? 01:53:28 adeht: Yes, that is interesting. 01:53:33 I thought asdf is only define systems not for deployment 01:53:53 there are different kinds of deployments. 01:54:20 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:54:21 The best deployment is sources in a git repository, with a asdf definition, and integrated into quicklisp distribution. 01:54:33 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:54:35 Ralt: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-object-model-of-ASDF.html#The-object-model-of-ASDF 01:54:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:51 Then the user only has to type (ql:quickload :your-application) (your-application:run) to [down]load an run it. 01:55:21 pjb: and when you want to deploy a release in a production server? :) 01:55:29 Same thing. 01:56:01 It's one way of doing it, there are other ways. 01:56:04 I don't know, production servers are usually pretty limited 01:56:13 Not mines. 01:56:23 still having issues, it keeps trying to compile /opt/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clsql-20130312-git/uffi/ASDF-TMP-clsql-uffi-loader.fasl 01:56:39 (I changed ~/quicklisp to /opt/lisp under the asdf conf file) 01:56:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:52 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:56:53 If I have /opt/lisp http ownership, I can run as webserver, but not a user via cli 01:57:01 I guess I could give /opt/lisp/quicklisp chmod 777 01:57:25 or give permissions for a common group maybe 01:57:33 666 would probably be enough 01:58:27 I don't understand why ql:quickload would compile anything if I've run the loads and then saved and died the image 01:58:37 I thought the compiled stuff would be in the core image 01:58:57 ahungry: maybe it thinks the dependency changed 01:59:21 Could someone mind testing out Clinch Tutorial 04 for me? I just pushed it. 01:59:56 This is the shell script I set up to make my quicklisp libraries http://sprunge.us/WQOW 02:00:11 well, lisp program but runnin it like a shell with shebang 02:00:31 But when calling it up with sbcl --core ql-load.img --script my-script.lisp 02:00:43 as soon as I use clsql it wants to compile things in /opt/lisp 02:00:54 I dont have any other (ql:quickload's in it 02:01:23 Could it be because my-script.lisp is under a package? and the quickload is happening in cl-user? 02:02:01 can't you make an image with my-script in it? 02:02:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:02:52 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 02:02:55 ahungry: I'd just set up a user with a homedir 02:02:55 this way it doesn't have to compile my-script.lisp 02:03:06 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:03:58 Ralt: not a good idea if my-script changes frequently 02:04:08 Ralt: I want to work on convincing my work (heavy php) to give CL a shot - but I need to make it as simple as possible 02:04:30 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 02:04:31 I guess 02:04:32 So, letting them make a file which all the libs are pulled in and everyone can make their-script.lisp 02:04:36 is the easiest way I could see to do it 02:04:44 ahungry: I have a hunch user with a quicklisp dir and everything.. and my website is just another system 02:04:53 and the main usage would be existing php programs calling these new lisp scripts with php's exec call 02:05:04 xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has joined #lisp 02:05:42 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:18 also it'd seem like a good setup to migrate my local shell scripst to lisp scripts 02:06:30 having them all run against a common core which is just filled with quicklisp libs 02:06:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:45 takes the exec time from around 10 sec to under 1 sec 02:06:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:07:00 ahungry: I write all my scripts in /usr/bin/clisp. 02:07:33 since 2000 that is. http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=public/bin&h=9d5078664aae6351876dce5df33b2904bd255355&hb=862262481de76d259a6ef2bbb5b67e19e6c50b00 02:07:52 I live inside emacs with a slime session so what's the point of scripts? :) 02:08:27 Indeed. I still use bash some times. 02:08:37 haha 02:08:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:07 my other idea for scriptiness is having a lisp listening on usocket for calls basically and dispatching teh events 02:09:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:10:08 well, chmod g+rw on /opt/lisp does fix the core image issue 02:11:22 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: brb] 02:11:50 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 02:12:03 Would anyone like to test out Tutorial 04 in CLinch? I just pushed it. 02:12:42 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:16:18 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:17:09 WarWeasle: it shows a rotating cube with a black face fading into a color 02:17:29 there are several warnings 02:17:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:18:38 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:54 adeht: Thanks! I just wanted to confirm it worked on someone else's system 02:20:11 adeht: I'll clean it up tomorrow. 02:20:22 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:19 ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-216-221-39-234.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 02:22:30 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-216-221-39-234.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 02:22:30 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 02:23:43 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.120.102] has joined #lisp 02:23:59 WarWeasle: The intended way to run the tutorials is not immediately obvious. For me, loading clinch then attempting to load the tutorial file results in a read error because package glfw does not exist 02:24:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 02:24:22 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:24:39 pjb: Wouldn't running emacs (or another Lisp) as /sbin/init affect the ability to have a graphical environment on the system? 02:25:01 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has left #lisp 02:25:25 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:27:13 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 02:27:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:28:37 Aethaeryn: I would call Emacs more-or-less a DE. I see it being a "graphical environment" more-or-less an after thought. :-P 02:29:01 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.185.16.78] has left #lisp 02:29:02 Vivitron: Oh, sorry. The set procedures are a little hard, which is why I release them in glfw and sdl. I'll post the sdl version soon. Do you have SDL? 02:29:34 I'd think though, yeah, it be hard to run a graphical system that is outside that of Emacs, that way. :-P 02:31:10 thanks all. Goodnight. 02:31:16 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has left #lisp 02:31:19 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:31:31 youlysses: Well, I think an emacs designed specifically for a user experience similar to a Lisp Machine should have 4 content modes: One would be an interactive shell and repl, one would be an in-terminal application (especially for remote ssh access), one would be a literal tiling desktop environment, and one would be an in browser experience using something like Parenscript. 02:32:02 youlysses: So ideally, the emacs clone itself *would* be the graphical system. I.e. you run foreign applications in buffers and manage it through the same tiling system as a text buffer. 02:32:46 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:48 This is speaking ideally, of course. 02:33:05 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:33:52 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:54 Aethaeryn: Well, ideally, Emacs would be the top-most layer of the system and have a built in more-or-less kernel, windowing-system, and toolbox. :-P 02:34:02 Yes. 02:34:20 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:34:47 Realistically, though, the emacs desktop environment would need to run on top of X, and it would need to run GTK/QT/etc. stuff. 02:35:11 can run as server, also in batch mode and as emacs client 02:35:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:39 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:35:54 That's when I wish one of the ~20 or-so, odd of Lisp Machine OS and/or Emacs clones would have really taken off. Even in a VM, it'd be better than anything we could currently do with Emacs without major rewrites and/or maneuvering. :-P 02:36:20 Yes, so there would be an emacs server in the background and then shell+repl, the terminal app, the browser client, the GUI client, the desktop environment, etc., however you access it would all be talking to the server. 02:36:23 Aethaeryn: Well, xwidgets is pretty promising on that end. :-P 02:37:21 I think the shell would be modal, i.e. switching between a Lisp repl for power and a sh clone for compatability. 02:37:54 Aethaeryn: Well eshell is practically if-not a sh clone. :-P 02:38:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:46 Yes, but this would have to be written in Common Lisp to be a #lisp machine and not an #emacs machine. And probably under the MIT license instead of the GNU Emacs's GPL-filled world. 02:39:30 So it would be *an* emacs clone, not GNU Emacs. 02:39:33 what's wrong with gpl? 02:39:44 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:40:27 Aethaeryn: I'd just have to be a fully lisp-based dialect that boots, to be a lisp-machine OS. Which one could do in CL, Scheme, or even ELisp (assuming we could replace those core-bits in C). Also, same question as rszeno. 02:40:57 rszeno: I don't care about copyleft, or how anyone else uses the software I release under an open source license. I would probably use the WTFPL, but I'm not sure that's the best way to seriously release serious code. 02:41:19 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:44 rszeno: rms was wrong about the necessity of copyleft in order to maintain "free software" against proprietary software. There are plenty of thriving permissively-licensed projects. 02:41:56 So in that sense, it becomes needless legal complexity. 02:42:02 opengl is open source and soon you will pay 65k $ to read docs, :) 02:42:27 Aethaeryn: If I was to replace more-or-less a Lisp Machine OS, I'd want to license it in a way in-which I knew it'd stay free long-term and distributed distributions of it did too; Which the GPL assures. :-P 02:42:34 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:42:49 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:16 Aethaeryn: it all depends on the executables. If there are drivers for graphical devices (or just network drivers so you can connect to a remote X server) then the programs can display graphically. 02:43:27 Aethaeryn: Yeah and many of the changes that could of made it upstream, are hidden somewhere in someones product. 02:43:33 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:45 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:44:25 youlysses: And if I were to write a major project in Lisp, devoting lots of time and effort, I would want to make sure that it gets widespread adoption and popularity so that it can actually have things written for it. The GPL turns some people off. 02:44:31 Besides, the GPL is largely worded for C. 02:45:42 Aethaeryn: the only way I would feel very confident that a lisp OS would survive would be the gpl2/3 02:45:56 p_nathan: Exactly. 02:46:03 I have profound belief in corporations unwillingness to release any source code and modifications. Seeing as I work for one. 02:46:25 Aethaeryn: Can you explain how the GPL is more aimed towards a specific programming language, than another? 02:46:36 They absolutely dislike doing anything relating to releasing code... they only do releases of code when its gpl 02:46:51 youlysses: the GPL is defined in terms of "linking". 02:47:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:33 pjb: Ok, that's maybe one. Anymore? 02:47:38 pjb: Hmm, this is why I think the best approach is starting with the most user-visible part, i.e. the application itself, and then moving down to the lower level. 02:47:55 youlysses: Theres this: http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/75/146 02:48:42 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:48:42 p_nathan: The only way I would feel very confident that a Lisp OS would survive would be at least one company supporting it. If investors or existing coproations prefer MIT to GPL, that means more money to pay coders if it goes MIT. 02:48:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:50:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:27 p_nathan: Besides, making it GPL limits its hackability. Even LGPL would be better. 02:50:56 sellout-: Yes, that's what I was trying to look up. I'm glad you found it. 02:50:58 Aethaeryn: I doubt a Lisp-Machine OS would really be very popular in the business world, where unix-like systems have gained a solid standing. I suspect it be much more likely a rag-tag group of nutter hobbyists. 02:51:43 Aethaeryn: I am afraid your complaints fall on deaf ears: I've heard all the common anti-GPL statements out there. I am quite definitely convinced that AGPL3 or similar "four freedoms" licenses are the best license for society. 02:51:56 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:04 youlysses: I suspect that such a machine would be used as a server backend for a particularly tough startup that may not deal directly in *selling* the OS. It may be interesting to pg who wrote http://paulgraham.com/avg.html and so may help such a startup get Y Combinator funding. 02:52:16 youlysses: Of course, it's not written in Arc, so that might complicate things. (-: 02:54:03 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:40 Aethaeryn, you know this? http://tunes.org/ 02:55:10 Aethaeryn: It seems to me, that such a startup, is doomed to fail, in that they are producing are spending oodles of time on writing a Lisp Machine OS, that is not needed to implement their product. Why use a lisp-machine OS as a server back-end, when there are very mature FOSS solutions for UNIX-like systems? 02:55:47 rszeno: No, I have never heard about it. 02:56:17 was 13 years ago, :) 02:56:31 youlysses: Maybe they could use it as the back-end to a related SaaS, like a browser-based IDE and hosting environment? 02:57:10 Heroku+LightTable on a custom OS? 02:57:33 Aethaeryn: That's not really a lisp-machine OS then though, right? 02:57:36 Anyway, the whole point is to only make a *partial* OS. 02:57:54 youlysses: AGPL, btw, would kill the potential SaaS business model. :-) 02:57:56 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:58:33 Aethaeryn: It limits the possibility for success, it doesn't kill it. 02:58:35 Anyway, why are we arguing about corporate support for an unwritten super-emacs at this early stage when there's not one s-expression written yet? 02:58:52 For all we know it could run as a non-profit on a donation basis. 02:59:10 It just really needs to generate enough revenue to pay one to a few people to hack on it full-time, probably. 02:59:11 Aethaeryn: Also, if you're only going for a "partial OS" just go with extending Emacs then. :-P 02:59:21 flattr 02:59:49 youlysses: I want it to be Common Lisp, I don't want to infect it with copyleft, and the basic design would have to be very different and way more client/server than emacs is right now. 03:00:06 Well sir, I would encourage you to start writing up a spec for what you plan to do, break it down into dependencies, and start hacking on the most required one 03:00:33 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:00:41 p_nathan, youlysses: And, yes, I know I won't convince you about the licensing. I'm taking the risk, though. 03:01:13 I sincerely doubt that any corporation would like Lisp enough to just outright fork it. "It's not Java?!" 03:01:26 Denommus [~Denommus@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 03:01:49 Aethaeryn: What p_nathan said. I want more-or-less the same thing, but the specifics are very different. I'd want GPLv3 on everything and licensed to some non-profit that would guarantee that upstream would stay that way and probably be R7RS Scheme. :-I 03:01:59 hi 03:02:07 hi Denommus! 03:02:51 small business can't aford to pay java programmers, and they use what solve their problems not necessarly a popular solution 03:03:05 youlysses: I like r7rs Scheme, I just wouldn't have the budget to do all the extensions necessary to make the emacs in a Scheme. Maybe I'll write an r7rs in sbcl so that Schemers get nice support in the OS, though. 03:03:18 I feel so tired the last few days that I can't even lisp 03:04:54 rszeno: From what I've heard, Common Lisp programmers are more expensive than Java programmers. :o 03:05:24 Aethaeryn, when co 03:05:49 when companies need Lisp, they usually also need experience 03:06:53 Denommus, is about takeing over the world by building a lisp machine 03:07:01 also, it's rare to find a Lisper that isn't an... "oldfag". Besides myself, I don't know any junior developer that can do Lisp 03:07:38 Aethaeryn: Well, you're literally more-or-less going building up from nothing. But, if you're going to do it, I think that's the way to do it "write". But hey, I'm also the guy who'd like the Documentation and Comment language in Esperanto, so I'm a wishful thinking about an already wishful thought. :-P 03:07:40 but i though will be free and not payed mainly 03:08:26 youlysses: In Esperanto? I'd rather have the documentation in a logic language so that there's no ambiguity. :-) 03:08:56 I also think laws should be written in symbolic logic. :P 03:08:58 logic languages are great on explaining how 03:09:08 Denommus: I'm 20, but I'm nothing more than a hobbyist. :-) I much more-see me becoming a teacher than a full-time hacker. 03:09:11 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:09:17 natural languages are better on explaining why 03:09:54 Aethaeryn, imagine the bugs! 03:10:26 Denommus: Or the infinite loopholes. 03:10:33 Aethaeryn: Lobjan and other-like languages are going to be great when the singularity hits and about 10 generations down the line we practically become the Borg, but now... eh. :-) 03:10:55 stacks overflows! 03:11:21 Denommus: Actually, in-general I'm surprised how unpopular hacking seems to be to my generation. :-P 03:11:46 youlysses: That's because they don't have an easy to use Lisp distro. 03:11:49 The super-emacs clone. :P 03:12:00 They like the product, but are either unaware of the existence or afraid of the process. :-P 03:12:25 I'm 23, and work with development. Believe me, there are few developers that hack outside of the work 03:12:43 Denommus: You're an "oldfart"? :-U 03:13:04 nope, only jr, for now 03:13:09 Ah. 03:13:43 Let's sex-up hacking. Shirtless calender anyone? ;-) 03:13:44 XD 03:15:40 Aethaeryn: I think it will happen one-day. In fact it's happened several times already... it just needs that certain "x" factor, which gets enough people involved to keep it alive and have it flourish. 03:15:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:56 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:15:58 youlysses: Money? 03:16:33 Enough money fixes everything! 03:17:01 Aethaeryn: That certainly could help, but I think it takes more-so someone who is really dedicated in seeing such a thing happen. 03:17:06 A nutter. 03:17:16 A Steve Jobs of Lisp? 03:17:32 (Sorry, couldn't resist.) 03:17:45 paul graham was like that 03:18:07 until he decided to fuck everything up by making arc 03:18:39 now the lisp which has better chances to hit mainstream is... clojurr 03:18:44 clojure 03:18:49 Aethaeryn: More like Woz, but I was thinking more-so an RMS or even Terry A Davis. The later literally a bit of the rocker, but each were more-or-less able to deliver a fully functional OS over the course of 10 years. 03:18:50 That's why the eccentric r7rs implementation goes on *top* of the Lisp OS, instead of being a vital element of it. :P 03:18:57 *latter 03:19:13 So the whole project doesn't get Arc'd. 03:19:44 Denommus: I really don't like Java. 03:20:08 Java, the language, is terrible 03:20:10 AntiSpamMeta_ [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:20:10 -!- AntiSpamMeta is now known as Guest36588 03:20:10 -!- Guest36588 [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Killed (wright.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 03:20:10 -!- AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 03:20:22 Java, the environment, is good 03:20:29 Aethaeryn: I've never even really looked into to ARC? Did it have problems with Scheme? 03:20:32 the JVM 03:20:36 *. 03:20:52 Denommus: Yes, and the JVM is good because there's lots of money in Java. If a Lisp OS became popular, it could *easily* become better than the JVM. 03:21:25 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:44 I don't see a relation between the JVM and Lisp being successful 03:21:51 youlysses: I think the problem is that it had nothing over Scheme except slightly shorter syntax and a web framework that exclusively used tables. 03:22:06 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:22:11 the JVM is just a VM. Lisp compiles to native code 03:22:16 youlysses: In other words, it was a language that was made looking for a problem/niche, not a language that was made to solve a problem/niche. 03:22:49 Aethaeryn: A modern LispM OS is probably more-likely to have individuals opt-in which are highly specialized in a number of Lisp based things, such as implementation optimization. So, even without it becoming very mainstream, I see it too possibly outpacing that of JVM. :-P 03:22:55 if you want a Lisp OS to be successful, it needs to solve, definitely and easily, something that people need solved and is difficult to solve with Linux. 03:22:58 also, it handled strings wierdly 03:23:04 Or Windows, or OSX. 03:23:12 youlysses: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6710p/arcs_out 03:23:25 Don't worry, the link is 5 years old so the comments are better than you might expect on today's reddit. 03:23:28 p_nathan, you nailed it 03:23:29 p_nathan: Well, popular outside the niche of hardcore lispers. :-P 03:23:30 Best of luck. I await seeing your code commits on github. 03:23:54 Personally, my money is on javascript. :) 03:24:16 Javascript sucks 03:24:30 youlysses: It's Lisp, not Java. Obviously the team would be much smaller than a Java team. 03:24:40 I hear that a lot, but people can rarely substantiate it. 03:24:50 -!- p_nathan is now known as p_nathan|hacking 03:25:05 Zhivago: The biggest problem with JavaScript is its syntax. 03:25:24 The second biggest problem is that it got popular too soon, and so it needs to phase out a lot of ugliness, but that will break a *lot* of websites. 03:25:28 Aethaeryn, it's still an OS, no trivial quest 03:25:35 this is the usual argument about lisp, :) 03:25:35 Aethaeryn: not the lack of integers? 03:25:54 if you want a tip, have a look into MINIX 03:26:09 hurd? 03:26:10 rszeno: Anyone's free to implement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression if they want. 03:26:23 There's even http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/ 03:26:37 my dream would be a microkernel system in which you can solve driver bugs in exec time 03:26:42 Wow pjb is everywhere. 03:26:59 this is perfectly possible with Lisp and a microkernel 03:27:00 Denommus: Well, it depends how you define an OS. I think I could probably write a trivial scheme implementation that boots directly from the bios and launches a repl, in the course of the year. :-P 03:27:07 only difficult as hell 03:27:50 M-Expressions are confusing as hell 03:28:17 you can implement it with macros, but why would you? 03:29:11 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:29 gmcastil [~user@207-224-44-98.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:51 youlysses, you can already boot emacs directly on top of a Linux kernel. Does that count? 03:29:57 aeth: Syntax is easy to replace. 03:30:45 true, in both, lisp and js 03:31:12 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:31:26 Denommus: I don't think so. Until it's able to boot unassisted, I wouldn't call Emacs anything more than a pseudo-DE. 03:31:27 Zhivago: The problem is, JavaScript is too ugly in syntax for me to want to code in it directly, and too limited in features to be a good compile-to language. It's possible that in the long run there will be a thriving ecosystem of compile-to-JS languages, but this will require the committee driving ECMAscript to accept that JavaScript will be used as a compiled-to language for complex web applications. 03:32:14 Zhivago, I know Javascript, and I can circuvent its problem. Still sucks, though 03:32:26 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:29 youlysses: I hope your trivial scheme has proper tail calls, the numeric tower, hygienic macros, etc. Otherwise I think some people in #scheme would probably disagree that it's Scheme. 03:32:32 there are a lot of js implementation now and also compilers 03:32:43 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:53 youlysses, userspace, actually. It wouldn't have anything besides Emacs 03:33:13 denommus: I hear that a lot, but generally those people can't substantiate it. :) 03:33:22 Aethaeryn: Well, when I say "trivial" I mean the small standard of R7RS. :-P 03:33:31 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@99.158.45.47] has joined #lisp 03:33:32 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:44 Which isn't tiny, but it's much smaller than the "large" one. :-P 03:33:45 aeth: Which feature limitations are you thinking of? 03:33:49 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:53 Denommus: A Lisp OS would probably boot directly on top of the Linux kernel. That simplifies a lot. 03:34:10 Denommus: A separate kernel would come last imo. You need the utilities that people actually want to run to get people to use it first, to justify the effort. 03:34:30 do you guys code to avoid all CL warnings? I have a bad habit of writing a function which calls on unwritten functions and then writing those functions after the calling function (this obviously spits out tons of warnings when I load the file about undefined functions) 03:34:38 Zhivago, I can. But then I end up following greenspunth's tenth rule. Besides, it's the same kind of argument to defend Java 03:34:44 Denommus: Of course, this leaves the project open to be torvalds'd. 03:34:59 Which probably isn't a bad thing. 03:35:07 denommus: Well, like I said ... 03:35:20 ahungry: Yes, when I consider the subsystem done. before then I only deal with warnings relating to correctness 03:35:51 youlysses: That's simultaneously good and bad. Yes, Scheme is a nice language, but on the other hand there's a *ton* of NIH in Scheme. Worse than CL. 03:36:12 Your implementation would be yet another Scheme. 03:36:20 Which NIH are you thinking of in scheme? 03:36:35 Not invented here. 03:36:52 Yes. And what is an example of that in scheme? 03:37:17 Afaik, it's hard to write portable Scheme code (r7rs-large tries to solve this by being, well, large) 03:37:48 halfway [~killian@ip-18-98.net.ksu.edu] has joined #lisp 03:37:52 I've written in portable subsets of Scheme before. It's not very fun. Very minimal. 03:38:00 What does portability have to do with NIH? 03:38:03 But one NIH is how many Schemes there are. 03:38:04 Aethaeryn: Well there's been an attempt in R6 and continuing into R7, which helps solves this. But yes, this is a bit of an issue, but I'm not sure if your lisp implementation needs to be all to portable though, if much of your implementation is going to be system specific though. :-P 03:38:15 Or by NIH do you mean 'implementation specific extensions'? 03:38:35 Zhivago: i.e. someone would rather implement a new Scheme into an OS rather than port/extend an existing Scheme. 03:38:41 Is there a good way to read a string from a file as a number in hex? I'm implementing rsa 03:38:55 So, yes, I guess I used the wrong phrasing. 03:38:58 Doesn't quite fit. 03:39:03 this usually is a problem with standardized languages without updates. Like... CL 03:39:19 halfway: parse-integer takes a radix, and you can set the default base for numbers. 03:39:47 why using Scheme, anyway? Why don't you like CL? 03:39:52 youlysses: Yes, I definitely am monitoring r7rs, it looks interesting. 03:40:15 halfway, you also can define the type when you open the file 03:40:46 Zhivago: Thanks, can't believe I didn't think of that. Not enough sleep apparently 03:41:05 Denommus: I'm not monogamous in my programming languages. E.g. I know quite a bit of Python. 03:41:49 neither do I 03:42:25 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 03:43:05 Anyway, nothing's wrong with running Scheme, Clojure, or even Arc on a Lisp OS. 03:43:38 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:43 aeth: I may have missed it, but did you figure out the main value you hope to derive from a lisp os? 03:43:51 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:06 I agree. But where is Lisp on your Lisp OS? 03:44:31 drivers? Userspace? The shell? 03:44:41 Denommus: I think you mean Standardized, main-branch Lisp? 03:45:22 youlysses, where? 03:45:55 Denommus: Where you implying there were no actual Lisps besides CL, or am I misunderstanding and/or misstating you? 03:45:59 Denommus: It would probably be best implemented as a server-based emacs clone with various potential clients. The shell would be *a* client, etc. 03:46:13 youlysses, misunderstanding 03:47:02 I'm asking where he plans to "ship" the language. That is: how he plans to make Lisp important 03:47:18 Denommus: Ah, ok. 03:47:53 Aethaeryn, I think that's more or less what RMS originally dreamed for GNU 03:48:00 Anyone here like poking around browser games btw? I have an open source browser based multiplayer game (lots of updates lately) 03:48:12 Guile would be its Lisp, as far as I know 03:48:28 don't know what went wrong 03:48:51 Let's just call this "cl-emacs" for lack of naming creativity at the moment. So you have a cl-emacs, and this runs on sbcl, so that immediately solves a lot of problems. No need to implement a new language. 03:49:04 why do you thing that went wrong? 03:49:57 cl-emacsd would be running in the background, one constant emacs clone session. Then when you use a shell, it would be a cl-emacs-sh session, which is modal between a compatable sh clone and a simple repl, I think. 03:50:02 rszeno, because very few GNU programs really use Guile nowadays. Besides, Hurd never got into production 03:50:40 Denommus: Tmu, he originally wanted to do a lisp-machine os, knew the portability problems and the recent popularity of unix and decided to go "safe". Emacs acted as the lisp-esque safe-haven for years, until there was an irk to fill in the void with a scheme based extension language. To which, really wasn't all to impressive tech to 2.0, some 10+ years later. :-p 03:50:40 and Hurd was really important for the GNU philosophy, afaik 03:50:45 aeth: So, what would be the main benefit over running emacs as is? 03:50:48 Other cl-emacs clients could include: in the terminal, in a windowed application in any DE, or as its own tiling desktop environment treating foreign applications as buffers within the tiling buffer UI similar to GNU emacs. 03:50:49 guile was a response to tcl in fact 03:51:17 Zhivago: The modern interface. 03:51:31 And it using CL instead of elisp. 03:51:47 Ok. So you could say that this is an emacs renovation project, fundamentally. 03:51:52 Aethaeryn: How would one redo Emacs UI to make it more "modern"? :-U 03:52:04 Which sounds like a fine goal. 03:52:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-88-95.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:52:46 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:52 well, it seems I already run something similar on my computet. Stumpwm 03:53:08 youlysses: Complete separation of server and client, allowing you to, e.g. be able to run an in-browser client with Parenscript. Perhaps. 03:53:16 Denommus: GPL though... :-P 03:53:36 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: gravitation] 03:53:44 Aethaeryn: I wouldn't necessarily call that UI then? 03:53:59 Aethaeryn this already done in actual emacs 03:54:10 Is davazp (jscl) around? I don't know his IRC nick. 03:54:19 Of course emacs probably has already done everything and includes everything. 03:54:28 Aethaeryn, I think you need better specs before shooting in the dark 03:54:46 Well, I don't really expect anyone to use it yet. 03:55:31 I mean, it seems you're not so sure of what you want and how you want it to be done 03:55:45 I was even less sure before I started talking here. 03:55:57 I've already learned a lot of details. 03:56:01 I imagine your project as a MINIX with a Lisp userspace, though 03:56:17 Perhaps. 03:56:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-69-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:56:54 which would be my dream, and I'd gladly help you if you went through this way 03:57:21 I probably have to explore for a few months. 03:57:30 Before I even pretend to have a design. 03:57:41 but MINIX has a long way to go. It doesn't even have kernel threading 03:58:18 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:59:02 Denommus: It's ok, it "can't" crash at least... ;-) 03:59:10 The kernel part, to me, doesn't matter. At least at this point. If I can get this to run on Linux, it'll run. Maybe someone will like it enough to port it to other OSes or write a kernel for it in CL. 03:59:58 I know that Linux virtualizes well, so I can play in VMs so as to not risk breaking my existing boxen. 04:00:18 the kernel part is a huge deal. Huge 04:00:26 Aethaeryn: Again, where we differ. :-) I'd love to just be able to do a QEMU vm on a GNU/Linux box and I'd be happy. 04:00:26 Yes. 04:00:47 Denommus: I'm reducing the problem to something more manageable. 04:01:05 if you decide to base yourself in MINIX, for instance, your drivers and filesystems would be in userspace 04:01:10 Eventually it will be reduced to a point that no one will see a point in using it. This is a good thing, making it trivial to implement. Then I can iterate from there and add features. 04:01:22 so, would they be made in Lisp? 04:02:19 well, must sleep now 04:02:23 goodbye 04:02:28 The drivers and filesystem will be a lot of work. If for some very unlikely reason this idea works, I'll try to write it in portable enough CL that it can be ported. 04:02:46 I'm trying to work at the highest possible level, i.e. the most user-visible stuff, first. 04:03:11 start with a shell, then 04:03:21 Yes, first a shell. 04:04:05 clisp can be used as shell, for instance 04:04:06 scsm is already here, scheme to cl? :) 04:04:16 well, good night 04:04:36 A good Common Lisp (graphical, fully-featured, HTML 5) web browser implementation would probably do more good for Common Lisp than a good Common Lisp kernel. 04:04:49 -!- Denommus [~Denommus@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: IRC Chatter closed.] 04:05:48 why not a semantic desktop, no need of a browser 04:06:30 Is minix still lurching along in its undead state? 04:06:49 Is there any reason apart from wanting to have no users that you'd consider using it? 04:06:57 Apparently. And apparently someone already wants to port my idea to Minix. 04:07:06 Zhivago: They've actually been fairly lively the past ~3 years from what I've seen. :-P 04:07:06 I hope Minix runs sbcl? 04:07:15 Well, good for them. :) 04:07:20 Zhivago: "Never crashes"? 04:08:17 aethaeryn: I'd suggest that you stick with posix interfaces where possible. 04:08:55 aethaeryn: It should be relatively easy to implement whatever metadata you want if you're the only user of the filesystem -- just stick it in file. 04:12:59 rszeno: I'd see it more of a distribution of packages rather than a giant centralized system. If someone's sufficiently interested to try something cool a long time from now when it works, they're free to do it. 04:14:00 i see a semantic desktop as a collection of small app not a big app 04:15:07 a common protocol to connect them an make them work toghether, x already have this 04:17:09 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:20:47 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 04:22:10 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:49 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 04:32:11 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:53 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:34:47 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 04:39:22 grep: Unmatched [ or [^ 04:39:22 i have been up since and i still cannot sleep. 04:41:51 grep '\[...' 04:45:35 whoops sorry 04:46:08 :), [ is metachar in grep regex 04:46:50 i have been up since 49 days and i still cannot sleep. 04:46:53 :D! 04:47:12 was missing a unmatching bracket 04:48:05 milk is good for sleep 04:48:20 that was a test for a command i just made for irssi 04:48:33 sorry to do it in here, thought i was in a different channel 04:48:37 i mean, sometimes help 04:49:03 no problem for me, :) 04:49:21 i was trying to get quasi-quoting to work in irssi(irc) chat 04:49:36 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-98-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53:14 /qq "i have been up since `uptime | grep -o [0-9][0-9]\ days` and i still cannot sleep." 04:54:10 but using bash as the function evaluator, though it would be nice to replace with a common lisp evaluator. 05:02:17 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.105.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:03:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:04:17 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:42 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 05:06:04 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 05:06:13 Hmm... Perhaps I should call it the Common Lisp Advanced SHell. 05:06:36 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:07:04 tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has joined #lisp 05:09:57 Say, do y'all try to fit your code within 80 "columns"? 05:11:28 madrik [~user@122.168.249.239] has joined #lisp 05:12:07 yes. 05:13:03 tigranes: nope :) 05:14:31 Bah, I'm guessing there's no consensus like with all the other important questions. 05:14:34 Thanks for the input :) 05:15:23 tigranes: my occasional long lines go up to 132 or so. that means they will print on my 132 col dot matrix printer. 05:15:33 which stopped working about 20 years ago 05:16:47 78 cols means I can have two frames side by side. 05:17:03 I have resizable windows. :) 05:17:22 I suppose keeping to the capabilities of an ancient printer makes similar sense to honoring capabilities of 40-year-old terminals 05:17:33 I find that this makes these issues largely irrelevant. 05:18:03 -!- halfway [~killian@ip-18-98.net.ksu.edu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 05:19:00 pkhuong: That's much of the reason I do the same; I can fit two 86-column frames in Emacs side by side, which is kind of nice. 05:19:23 Zhivago: Fair enough :) 05:19:59 as with pkhuong and tigranes for me. I have a key for emacs follow mode which will split the screen into as many 80 char windows as will fit 05:20:45 i can fit two 150 col frames side by side :) 05:21:33 I'm seeing a pattern here: people with larger screens don't care as much about line length. Go figure! 05:21:55 *|3b|* can fit almost 4 80col frames, and likes 80 col 05:22:19 I like displays that can do line wrap. 05:23:20 lol 05:23:27 I like working in 4 columns on my widescreen monitors. 05:25:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.10.170] has joined #lisp 05:25:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.10.170] has quit [Changing host] 05:25:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:25:57 91 is the width they fit at 1080p at 7 pt. 05:26:05 Holy crap, 7pt! 05:26:22 I have really, really big screens and I turn on subpixel smoothing. 05:26:48 I have small screens and switch pages. I find that my peripheral vision isn't very good at reading. 05:26:53 It's Deja Vu Mono set to the smallest size at which the characters are distinguishable. 05:27:13 Any smaller and you can't tell the difference between () and {} 05:27:22 Why have a large page of tiny text that you can only inspect a small part of at a time? 05:29:19 97 lines * 4 shows me a lot. 05:29:30 nostoi [~nostoi@7.Red-79-154-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:47 If I really wanted to I could have it span both monitors and be * 8. 05:30:15 Zhivago: I rather agree with that sentiment. My font sizes are along the 13-15 sizes: no need to strain the eyes at all. 05:31:01 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:31:49 bind [~bind@D57DEC5A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 05:31:51 My screens are 23.6 inch. 05:32:23 *|3b|* likes having multiple related chunks visible at once... current function, some things it calls, input, output, etc 05:32:41 Hacker News on my Nexus 7 right in front of my face is smaller than my "tiny" fonts on the back of my desk 05:32:57 sw2wolf [~z_axis@110.185.16.78] has joined #lisp 05:33:12 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:35:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:36:11 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:37:34 Enabling hinting makes all the difference for rendering "small" text on really large monitors. 05:37:57 Yeah, hinting is nice. 05:39:35 On a different topic, is there a way to tell SBCL in SLIME to ignore a shebang line? I know sbcl --script will do that, but that's not helpful in SLIME. 05:40:10 tigranes: what's shebang line ? 05:40:18 #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script 05:40:21 In my case :) 05:41:16 shebang n 1: an entire system; used in the phrase `the whole shebang' 05:42:00 sw2wolf: In case you're not familiar with the concept, it allows creating execuatable files in Linux/UNIX that will be interpreted by the program specified after #! (if it's on the first line). 05:42:08 sw2wolf: you're a Windows user? 05:45:49 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.57] has joined #lisp 05:46:22 shebang: contraction of hash and bang 05:50:37 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 05:53:45 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 05:53:53 -!- Tribal [~Tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:55:09 Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 05:55:13 DataLinkDroid: i know #!..., but i donot know what shebang means ? 06:02:46 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has quit [Quit: Good night] 06:10:33 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:10 ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:10 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:52 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 06:15:26 gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-204-237.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:15:30 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 06:16:01 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.213.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:19:50 leoncamel [~leoncamel@219.142.235.223] has joined #lisp 06:20:28 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:20:41 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:02 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:23:46 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@7.Red-79-154-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 06:29:22 -!- jenia [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:30:13 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.211.121] has joined #lisp 06:30:42 AntiSpamMeta_ [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:30:42 -!- AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 06:30:47 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has joined #lisp 06:36:52 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.79.212] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:40:02 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:44:19 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:37 teggi [~teggi@123.21.172.81] has joined #lisp 06:50:54 TheSpectre [~MingHong@bb219-74-200-24.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:51:23 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.249.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:54:24 -!- sw2wolf [~z_axis@110.185.16.78] has left #lisp 06:55:18 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 06:57:59 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 06:58:59 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 06:59:13 agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:03:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:03:39 zyg [55e38e49@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.227.142.73] has joined #lisp 07:05:12 Hi! Using SLIME I have a buildup of auto-flush-thread, control-thread, repl-thread and swank-indentation-cache-thread. Why doesn't CL side tear it down? 07:05:23 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:08:17 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:10:17 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:12:03 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:12:32 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:14 Are there any resources for project naming? I need to create a git repository 07:16:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-2-110.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has joined #lisp 07:20:29 schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has joined #lisp 07:26:13 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:39:40 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:39:41 -!- tic is now known as mikaelj 07:39:53 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@2-225-106-57.ip175.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 xani [~user@178.183.155.174.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 07:42:20 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:44:56 tic: herep 07:48:13 yaeh 07:49:25 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 07:49:53 mikaelj: did you have the link to that bread recipe? I've lost it. 07:50:00 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.237] has joined #lisp 07:51:49 zyg, unfortunately, my blahg is off the intarwebs, but I can give you restructuredtext if you want. 07:51:50 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@99.158.45.47] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 07:53:20 mikaelj: yes please, I'm about to restart my surdeg attempts :) 07:53:45 privmsg. 07:56:20 bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:20 -!- poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:01:11 -!- xani [~user@178.183.155.174.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:54 [6502] [4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:12:56 (Technically these public irc messages are PRIVMSGs too - just with a channel as the target.) 08:13:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755263.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:57 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 08:16:29 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-204-237.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: gravitation] 08:19:43 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:20:21 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 08:21:24 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.211.121] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 08:23:40 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:14 poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has joined #lisp 08:24:54 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 08:25:54 -!- d11wtq [~chris@59.167.38.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:26:58 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:27:35 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:09 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 08:31:40 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:32:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:34:35 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:38 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:34:39 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.67.116] has joined #lisp 08:36:00 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:36:37 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:36:45 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:13 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 08:40:15 maximize and minimize can accumulate to the same value in a lisp form. But what's the exact meaning of this? What actually happens 08:41:06 I can't find anything relevant in the standard, except to say that it's legal 08:41:48 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:42:52 I was thinking maybe it has something to do with the min-max algorithm, but my understanding of that algorithm was that it works on trees 08:43:16 gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 08:43:21 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: eataix] 08:43:26 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:43:47 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 08:44:55 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:45:33 Here's what I mean http://paste.lisp.org/display/136969 08:46:19 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e177113253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:02 gravitation_ [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 08:50:32 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:32 -!- gravitation_ is now known as gravitation 08:51:43 -!- zyg [55e38e49@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.227.142.73] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:52:48 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:03 _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has joined #lisp 08:56:27 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:56:45 -!- ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:57:15 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@2-225-106-57.ip175.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:58:28 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:58:41 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:56 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:04:21 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:08:18 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:09:23 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:09:42 <[6502]> ohnoitsavram: (minimize x) means more or less (when (< x result) (setf result x)) and (maximize y) means more or less (when (> y result) (setf result y)). Run the loop and you'll see the answer is 2. 09:09:50 <[6502]> ohnoitsavram: see http://paste.lisp.org/+2XOP/1. 09:11:41 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:02 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:17:00 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.10.170] has joined #lisp 09:17:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:17:00 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.10.170] has quit [Changing host] 09:17:00 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:18:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: i will be back...nvm] 09:18:45 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 09:19:34 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-251-185.lns14.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:22:57 madrik [~user@122.168.163.139] has joined #lisp 09:31:09 AeroNotix [~xeno@abog202.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 :[6502] Thanks. The missing link (so to speak) was that the min and max operations used as an argument the accumulating value. I kept looking at it as the two variables being compared against eachother, with min or max being used alternatively every iteration (due to the connection with the eponymous algorithm) and then this being stored in the accumulating value. And other variations on that such as (min x y so-far) followed b 09:31:15 y so-far) etc. 09:32:43 pierpa [~user@host249-53-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 Also when I said lisp form about 50 mins ago I meant to say loop form. 09:32:58 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:33:43 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:34:14 -!- [6502] [4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:34:23 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 09:38:48 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:40:21 -!- _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:40:48 _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has joined #lisp 09:45:34 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.57] has joined #lisp 09:46:08 davazp [~user@178.167.195.154.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 09:50:17 -!- agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:50:46 mutley89_ [~mutley89@host86-150-204-63.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:41 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@host86-147-55-83.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:55 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 09:56:26 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:38 ok... 09:58:46 I've been stuck on this for too long 09:58:55 here is a pastie (not working): http://paste.lisp.org/display/136970 09:59:13 can anyone help me see the light? 10:00:00 tequila_ [2ec24fb0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.194.79.176] has joined #lisp 10:00:09 -!- gravitation [~gravitati@dyn-160-39-62-113.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: gravitation] 10:01:41 lisp is awesome, why don't people write more lisp?! 10:02:21 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:26 don't know :( 10:03:38 because they don't want to 10:03:44 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:26 Ralt: I would use pop. (loop while list for a = (pop list) for b = (pop list) ...) 10:04:26 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@101.161.76.166] has joined #lisp 10:04:55 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-251-185.lns14.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:04:55 I'm looking into haskell as well, can't quite decide which would make me more productive 10:07:47 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 10:08:05 daimrod: what is the problem? 10:08:56 daimrod: looking to see if this can help me 10:09:42 -!- mutley89_ [~mutley89@host86-150-204-63.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:10:15 daimrod: still doesn't help me. The issue is not looping through the list, it's correctly making the `ret` list 10:10:27 Ralt: what do you want to do? :-) 10:11:12 tequila_: I want to return this kind of list: '((10 20) (30 40) (50 60)) 10:11:23 but I'm having issues since it looks like empty list is considered as nil 10:11:31 so I can't get the last empty list and add to it 10:11:49 Ralt: what is your input? 10:12:08 -!- ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:13 tequila_: a list like '(10 20 30 40 50 60) 10:12:20 (I have to cut every 2 items) 10:13:35 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:15:05 Ralt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136970#1 10:15:13 reading 10:15:30 oh 10:15:32 sounds smart 10:15:42 I never know how to use collect except simple things :P 10:16:07 it's: collect 10:16:22 -!- DataLinkD2 is now known as DataLinkDroid 10:18:05 Ralt: (loop for x on '(10 20 30 40 50 60) by #'cddr collecting (cons (car x) (cadr x))) 10:18:30 duh 10:18:36 I can't understand why I bugged so much on this 10:18:52 thanks people :) 10:20:32 don't forget "collect FOO into BAR" ... 10:20:49 even simpler I guess: (loop for x on '(10 20 30 40 50 60) by #'cddr collecting (subseq x 0 2)) 10:20:57 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:21:22 tbh I like the while pop solution 10:21:26 capisce: i think the (cons ..) version is nicer, says what it does better .. 10:21:37 maybe 10:22:10 was what i was going to suggest before the wife wanted me to check up on somethings hehehehe 10:24:44 is there some definite reference about loop? 10:25:05 Ralt: hyperspec 10:25:07 hyperspec I guess 10:25:10 yay 10:25:30 is there some readable definite reference about loop? :D 10:25:42 speaking of which, does anyone have a pretty printer for loop and emacs? 10:25:52 Ralt: what is wrong with the hyperspec? 10:26:54 tequila_: there isn't a lot of examples, I'm having a hard time being able to read the signatures 10:27:07 -!- gmcastil [~user@207-224-44-98.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:27:30 Ralt: m... lots of examples here... 10:27:46 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_ac.htm 10:27:47 for example 10:28:05 infact, every clause has a bunch of examples 10:28:23 oh 10:28:25 didn't see this link 10:28:37 only this one: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 10:28:37 josemanuel [~josemanue@132.203.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:29:08 "For details, see Section 6.1 (The LOOP Facility). " :-) 10:31:10 no excuse :> 10:31:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:31 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:32:11 d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:32:13 -!- poi519 [~danil@91.199.35.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:32:34 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.195.154.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:57 mm... can't find anything on the interwebs to fontlockify cl loop and indent it prettily 10:34:07 davazp [~user@178.167.195.154.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 10:34:52 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:31 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.161.76.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:36:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:40:55 v0yager_ [~v0yager@4.sub-70-197-161.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:13 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:49:42 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:55:49 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:57:07 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-111.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 11:01:49 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:17 -!- v0yager_ [~v0yager@4.sub-70-197-161.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:03:56 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 11:04:17 shifty [~user@114-198-39-110.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:06:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:08:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:09:38 -!- tequila_ [2ec24fb0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.194.79.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:46 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 11:21:41 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@netblock-68-183-229-245.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 11:29:51 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:58 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:13 ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:47 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:39:47 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-229-146.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:45:08 xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-191-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:49:24 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-85-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:54:24 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:54:44 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-85-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:00 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-85-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:16 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 12:00:13 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 12:02:19 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:02:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@66.201.52.99] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:03:22 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru` 12:07:18 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:08:28 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:10:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:11:00 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.35.61] has joined #lisp 12:11:08 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:11:13 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:12:02 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - 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Did anyone have problems while building stumpwm with ccl. Got this err "/usr/local/bin/ccl --load ./make-image.lisp, Error: Error Component STUMPWM not found. While executing: #, in process listener(1)" 13:31:07 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:31:17 -!- prip [~foo@host83-130-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:31 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-209-52.eduroam.liu.se] has joined #lisp 13:31:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:32:18 looks like stumpwm.asd isn't in a place where asdf can find it 13:33:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:34:37 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:12 prip [~foo@host83-130-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:05 -!- jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:37:44 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:06 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:17 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:43:28 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:43:45 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:46:30 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:48:33 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-167-124.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 13:49:41 Shark8 [~Shark8@69-20-190-126.static.ida.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:09 jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has joined #lisp 13:51:01 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:46 dlowe: Can you give me hint what should i change so asdf can find stumpwm.asd 13:52:39 loke [~elias@bb219-74-48-169.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:52:41 jaaso: you just want to use stumpwm and not learn CL, right? 13:53:13 jaaso: (pushnew #P"/path/to/the/directory/where/stumpwm.asd/is/" asdf:*central-registry*) 13:53:24 try doing (push "/path/to/dir/" asdf:*central-registry*) 13:53:38 alternatively, put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and (ql:quickload :stumpwm) 13:53:45 *dlowe* wasn't entirely sure central-registry still existed 13:53:57 jaaso: make sure you end it with a / 13:54:05 it = the path to the directory 13:55:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:56:40 bolcselo [~x@pool-71-246-218-114.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:59:09 dlowe: I want to learn CL, but right now i want moar stumpwm that works 13:59:27 thanks btw 13:59:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:03:43 -!- bind [~bind@D57DEC5A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:08:18 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:34 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:12:42 -!- jaaso [~user@109.175.27.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:32 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:48 Forgetaboutit [~sammy@p579EB09B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 jenia [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:18:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:44 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:24:55 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:57 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:45 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:27:39 stumpwm works fine for me (FreeBSD, stumpwm from ports, sbcl) 14:28:41 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.57] has joined #lisp 14:29:23 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:43 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:10 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:31:32 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:38 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1223-105.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:35:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-160-154.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:37:07 bitonic [~user@dyn1223-105.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:37:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:37:17 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 14:40:22 -!- sellout- is now known as selliou 14:40:26 -!- selliou is now known as sellout 14:40:56 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-158-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 14:47:17 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-39-110.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:50:41 *maxm* just realized CL has string-trim, string-left-trim, string-right-trim 14:50:46 education is unceasing 14:54:25 maxm: d'oh. i was going to mention it yesterday but thought you had some special twist on them. 14:55:31 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:56:48 (string-trim "-" 'conc-name-) => "CONC-NAME" 14:56:50 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.120.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:56:59 that's weird 14:57:05 its like these 20 years ago guys are screwing with us, because you can never guess. If it had none of utilities, or most of them, but the randomness what jazzes it up :-) 14:57:05 that's a symbol not a string! 14:58:04 and makes it easy to play guru coz you know about obscure ones too :-) 14:58:21 j`ey: string- functions take a string designator, not just strings. :-) 14:58:39 I see 14:58:41 err last one did not come out right, Xach is awesome and I appreciate lisp-tips thing 14:58:42 and that's..? :P 14:59:01 (deftype string-designator () (or string character symbol)) 14:59:06 (deftype string-designator () '(or string character symbol)) 14:59:07 ah 14:59:11 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-85-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:46 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.66] has joined #lisp 14:59:56 It's funny that vectors or non-empty lists of characters are not string designators. 15:00:09 (string= '() "NIL") => t 15:00:39 (string= :nil '()) => t 15:00:51 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 -!- ftraversAndroid [~androirc@m121-202-251-34.smartone.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 15:01:43 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:03:27 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:04:12 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1223-105.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:05:14 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.237] has joined #lisp 15:05:31 how can I reevaluate a defvar? 15:05:34 with slime 15:05:38 without restarting the whole thing... 15:05:53 M-x slime-re-evaluate-defvar or something like that 15:05:58 oh, cool. 15:06:06 C-h f to figure out what the keyboard binding for it is. 15:06:16 if emacs doesn't tell you right away 15:06:18 pjb, (type-of '()) => NULL but there is not NULL type 15:06:30 s/not/no/ 15:06:58 rszeno: NIL. 15:07:13 x, (typep x 'nil) -> nil 15:07:27 rszeno: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_null.htm 15:08:06 (type-of nil) => NULL, :) 15:08:16 pjb: wait, what 15:08:21 (string= '() "NIL") => t 15:08:46 j`ey: yes, because () is reader syntax for CL:NIL and CL:NIL designates the string "NIL", just like :NIL. 15:09:08 so, 15:09:24 ok 15:09:26 mental 15:09:30 skykopomp, (type-of null) in sbcl give unbound variable 15:09:36 ("\\\*(?!\\\*)". "\\\*(?!\\\*)") <- why should I escape the parentheses? 15:09:40 pjb: do you know of things that 15:09:45 rszeno: because null is unbound. 15:09:46 rszeno: (type-of 'null) 15:09:51 pjb: erm, some "referencea" about CL's compilation? 15:09:54 rszeno: (type-of nil) 15:10:00 rszeno: (type-of nil) works because nil is defined as a self evaluating constant. 15:10:01 oops, :) 15:10:02 nil is a value, null is a type 15:10:10 rszeno: but you should write (type-of 'nil) 15:10:18 CL semantics are defined on the objects, not on the character syntax read to produce the objects. There are many ways to write the object that the reader produces when reading "()". 15:10:24 j`ey: reading the clhs. 15:11:29 oudeis [~oudeis@183.233.228.94] has joined #lisp 15:11:49 pjb: ok 15:18:31 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 15:18:49 anyway, i suppose clhs is clear and consistent about typying, :) 15:22:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:25:35 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 15:27:16 Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 15:28:16 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:28:31 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 15:29:16 nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:35 -!- deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-45-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:12 thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.169.88] has joined #lisp 15:35:19 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.169.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:33 -!- loke [~elias@bb219-74-48-169.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:08 pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:38:23 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 15:38:54 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-167-124.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:40:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:41:46 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:43:28 -!- pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:44:26 -!- hitecnologys1 is now known as hitecnologys 15:46:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:07 pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:46:19 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 -!- hiato [~hiato@41-133-46-168.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Nothing so gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums.] 15:48:45 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:51:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 arpunk` [~user@190.84.40.17] has joined #lisp 15:53:07 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-194-193.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:55 -!- arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:58:41 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:33 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:02:00 -!- pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:02:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.138.146.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:06:04 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-209-52.eduroam.liu.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 16:06:34 -!- jenia [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:36 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.61.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:25 pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:09:05 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.217.89] has joined #lisp 16:09:07 morning everyone, is there a reader literal for creating hash-tables? 16:09:20 many floating around 16:09:35 oh, so I would just add one myself 16:09:36 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 16:09:40 nothing that's part of the standard? 16:09:43 no 16:09:43 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:05 -!- pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:10:17 maybe I'll just make a plist then and save some time 16:10:34 I don't have a lot of data to worry about. only a couple of states 16:10:50 photex: plists are great! 16:11:18 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:25 well that settles it! :) 16:11:55 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:12:37 There's always the usual #.(let ((table (make-hash-table))) (setf (gethash table ...) ...) (repeat-ad-nauseum) table) approach. 16:15:08 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:16:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:18:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:21:47 Cyan [~cyan@unaffiliated/cyan] has joined #lisp 16:22:16 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 16:23:07 -!- Cyan [~cyan@unaffiliated/cyan] has left #lisp 16:23:58 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.6] has joined #lisp 16:24:47 you can use alexandria:alist-hash-table (or plist) 16:26:39 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 16:27:31 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:10 or use load-time-value 16:28:55 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:42 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.10.170] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:29:43 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.10.170] has quit [Changing host] 16:29:43 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:30:02 nilsi [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has joined #lisp 16:30:26 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:37 or use plists 16:30:38 :D 16:30:49 nilsi__ [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:09 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:33:27 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:53 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:36 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@94.234.170.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:37:12 tiglog [~topeak@114.243.48.68] has joined #lisp 16:39:15 -!- totimkopf [~jamesmart@c-98-198-222-14.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aqui eh biscoito, mermao] 16:40:03 -!- ryoshu [~ryoshu@unaffiliated/ryoshu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:35 pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:41:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:27 -!- Forgetaboutit [~sammy@p579EB09B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 16:43:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:44:14 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[woodsing] 16:45:57 -!- arpunk` is now known as arpunk 16:47:47 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:38 new repos from beach 16:53:44 Oh? 16:54:02 jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 16:56:31 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.35.61] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-rc1] 16:56:50 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 16:59:45 everything in alexandria looks pretty useful! adding it to my list of systems to reflexively require or quickload 16:59:57 Joreji [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:02 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@gw-isr.deec.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:50 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 17:02:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:03:28 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 17:03:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:07:47 Vicfred [~anon@187.206.82.179] has joined #lisp 17:07:53 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:09:42 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:10 Bike_ [~Glossina@65-100-33-209.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:10:38 -!- arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:10:41 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:10:41 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 17:10:42 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 17:10:49 The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:17 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:35 arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has joined #lisp 17:13:46 satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:41 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.6] has joined #lisp 17:15:48 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:51 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:17:59 -!- pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:18:29 -!- kranius [~kranius@lafitte.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:18:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 17:19:11 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:08 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:10 Xach: link? 17:22:15 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 17:22:57 ehu [~ehu@31.138.146.148] has joined #lisp 17:23:10 madnificent: https://github.com/robert-strandh 17:26:24 -!- satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:26:37 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:28:10 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:29:14 tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has joined #lisp 17:29:17 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:29:25 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-135-128.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:23 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:30:57 pjb: ty 17:31:28 *madnificent* doesn't see any contributions 17:31:43 Hello! So, is there any way to be able to load lisp files with shebang (#!) on the first line in SBCL without --script parameter? I.e. I would like to have the shebang on the first line and still be able to (load-file) from REPL. 17:31:45 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32:32 tigranes: Use two files, one to deal with the shell and the second containing the lisp code. 17:32:48 tophalf01 [~Incorrect@c-71-207-142-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:04 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:33:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:33:43 Cyan [~cyan@unaffiliated/cyan] has joined #lisp 17:33:54 nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-173-63-24-234.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:57 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:33:59 is there a standard function to generate a list from 1 to n? 17:34:04 no 17:34:07 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:34:47 Cyan: (loop for i from 1 upto n collect i) 17:35:05 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-102.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:14 if you find yourself needing to do that, you're probably doing something wrong 17:35:42 And there's probably a function in alexandria (much as I hate recommending alexandria) to do the job. 17:36:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:39 nyef: like #'alexandria:iota 17:37:08 nyef: why the alexandria hate? 17:37:12 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 iota? 17:37:29 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-6.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:38:38 (alexandria:iota 4) => (0 1 2 3) 17:38:40 kanru` [~kanru@118-168-244-96.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:52 (and it has an &key start which you could set to 1) 17:39:39 nyef: Like a shell wrapper? #!/bin/sh sbcl --script file.lisp "$@" ? 17:39:54 (#!/bin/sh being on a separate line) 17:40:34 dlowe: It's an extra dependency, for starters. 17:40:35 and abs path to sbcl 17:40:37 tigranes: i do something like that. 17:41:01 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:17 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-129.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:18 I will try that. Thanks! 17:41:27 sorry, i meant the idea, not the implementation 17:41:33 i'll show you what i do, it's a rob warnock trick 17:42:12 Sounds intriguing :) 17:42:13 http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/ne2cnUA7sqeQe7ndXTWc-w%40speakeasy.net.html is his original trick 17:42:59 I use approximately #| ... exec lisp --load $this-file \n |# for a longer shell bit, because my lisp script needs some setup 17:43:02 i save images, who needs scripts 17:43:13 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-102.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:43:19 this is for when i'm on safari in not-sbcl-land 17:43:22 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:43:29 "what's that?" 17:43:31 *Xach* should port buildapp someday 17:43:32 heh whats the official name for the :before/:after keyword in methos 17:43:43 its not specializer, that is for the arg 17:43:49 official term rather 17:43:50 maxm: method qualifier 17:43:53 ah thanks 17:44:49 Xach: Interesting method, definitely going to try. Thanks! 17:46:10 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:49:13 Xach: I didn't get it. What is the point of making scripts which run cmucl? 17:49:33 ryoshu [~ryoshu@83.143.102.212] has joined #lisp 17:49:54 Xach: they run cmucl, how can they be standalone? 17:49:55 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.229.10] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 -!- Cyan [~cyan@unaffiliated/cyan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:50:32 I don't understand the question, sorry. 17:50:38 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:51:27 rvirding_ [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzigruyqxgtrpced] has joined #lisp 17:51:28 Xach: Rob Warnock's method. I didn't get it. 17:51:45 hitecnologys: Are you saying you write scripts in machine code? 17:51:47 i don't get your not getting 17:51:49 oGMo_ [~rpav@ec2-54-235-67-4.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-182-100-51.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:09 hitecnologys: Ok, that's fine. 17:52:21 hitecnologys: what part in particular do you find difficult to understand? 17:52:23 I just can't understand how scripts that call cmucl could be standalone 17:52:39 -!- arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- hq1 [~aerosol@unaffiliated/hq1] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vkpgvvpemdqzrdrv] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- miah [~miah@jobsville.chia-pet.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- peccu1 [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- oGMo [~rpav@ec2-54-235-67-4.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-100-51.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:39 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:40 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@184-106-98-73.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 17:52:40 -!- oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 17:52:42 hitecnologys: What would a script that you _do_ consider standalone do? 17:52:45 miah [~miah@jobsville.chia-pet.org] has joined #lisp 17:52:49 ktx_ [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 17:53:20 sellout: executable that doesn't need compiler or interpreter to run 17:53:29 I'm wrong? 17:53:38 do they need an operating system? 17:53:56 peccu1 [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:53:58 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 17:54:03 maybe, OS is not compiler 17:54:04 -!- rvirding_ is now known as rvirding 17:54:08 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:12 sigjuice [~sigjuice@184.106.98.73] has joined #lisp 17:54:18 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 17:54:32 isn't your definition arbitrary then? 17:54:33 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:54 deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-45-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 hitecnologys: I dont think the term script applies in that case. 17:55:00 maybe, I'm not really sure about it 17:55:01 hitecnologys: tigranes didn't appear to be trying to build a standalone app 17:56:01 Cyan [~cyan@unaffiliated/cyan] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 -!- Cyan [~cyan@unaffiliated/cyan] has left #lisp 17:57:56 so, the purpose of this method is to make lisp code run as normal bash script? 17:58:17 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-14-160.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 hitecnologys: Yeah  like any kind of shebang script  whether #!/bin/bash, #!/bin/python  17:58:59 -!- ryoshu [~ryoshu@83.143.102.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:59:28 arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has joined #lisp 18:00:04 sellout: ah, now I see 18:01:40 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:47 Or, whats the preferred way these days? #!/bin/env python? Been a while since Ive run code outside of a REPL ;) 18:01:47 okay, I need to go. Goodbye everyone 18:01:56 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:02:11 -!- pjb [~t@90.24.180.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:02:20 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:21 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.217.89] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 18:04:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abol172.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:08:42 k0001 [~k0001@host121.186-125-147.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 totimkopf [~jamesmart@unaffiliated/totimkopf] has joined #lisp 18:09:29 -!- arpunk [~user@190.84.40.17] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:09:29 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:09:29 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:09:30 -!- peccu1 [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:09:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:10:17 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abol172.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:35 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abol172.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog202.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:15 GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 peccu1 [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:14:08 sellout: #!/bin/env python 18:14:31 if you're in a virtualenv it'll pick up the correct python this way 18:15:08 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:04 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abol172.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 18:16:18 AeroNotix [~xeno@abol172.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:19:35 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:19 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:35 hq1 [~aerosol@unaffiliated/hq1] has joined #lisp 18:22:38 pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:23:33 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:58 -!- pnpuff [~Elk@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:29:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-237.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:30:02 -!- deveux [~deveux@74.Red-83-45-150.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:02 -!- nilsi__ [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 so I'm trying to learn what an analogue for python generators might be in Lisp and I see that there are quite a few possibilities discussed in various blog posts 18:32:47 what I'm trying to do is just have a simple co-routine really 18:33:21 in the browse state, the device I'm emulating sends a message to the host app at a specific interval to instruct it to capture a frame from the camera 18:33:50 rather than pass a callback that duplicates a portion of the main loop I just use a generator 18:33:52 -!- tophalf01 [~Incorrect@c-71-207-142-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: I must go. My people need me.] 18:33:53 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00223a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 this way the implementation of that behavior is isolated in a single function that does only this 18:34:11 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:26 all I have to do is 'yield' periodically 18:34:44 I see that yield is in Lisp, but it's much different 18:34:51 or at least appears to be 18:35:14 is there a consensus on how to develop something like this in Lisp? 18:35:29 photex: are you just trying to pass a lambda function? 18:35:45 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-168-244-96.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:04 no 18:36:31 photex: Common Lisp has no generators. There is also no 'yield' in Common Lisp 18:36:37 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:36:44 hi 18:37:10 sykopomp: how about loop alternative (help me with the name) 18:37:10 -!- ckoch786 [~cory@98.103.82.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:25 anyone else will participate of the Lisp In Small Projects? 18:37:40 madnificent: iterate 18:37:51 sykopomp: yes I'm incorrect there.. I guess I get confused with the assortment of sites I search through for clues to these things 18:38:03 Denommus: hoping to 18:38:34 I'm not sure if I want to do a game engine on top of lispbuilder-sdl or a minimalist web framework inspired by Ruby's Sinatra 18:38:36 madnificent: I guess this would be a continuation in lisp then? 18:38:44 photex: to emulate coroutines, you need either continuations or threads. 18:39:23 and CL also lacks continuations, so you'll need something like cl-cont that lets you pretend it does. 18:39:33 thanks sykopomp 18:39:52 what would be the most idiomatic way to accomplish what I'm after? 18:40:10 photex: i'm not sure that you want a continuation, but you might. i don't know how the python generators work 18:40:23 Denommus: thanks! and no, i will likely not participate. 18:40:25 madnificent: they're coroutines 18:40:52 break the main loop down into further parts and use a macro to thread the functions together? 18:40:58 photex: I'm late to the party, what are you trying to do? 18:41:19 break my Python habits :) 18:41:29 wondering how to translate some code that uses a generator 18:41:43 photex: you mean parts that need to do heavy work outside of the execution of the main loop itself? 18:41:57 if so, I've seen continuations and threads both used for that. 18:42:25 sykopomp: sounds a lot like continuations :) 18:42:26 sykopomp: in this case I need the emulator to respond to commands sent from the host app 18:42:41 but I don't want to duplicate the code that reads from the host 18:43:17 so use a callback 18:43:30 State machines, then? Or... have the input handling not be the toplevel loop? 18:43:32 if you need async behavior, continuations can abstract that away, or you can just use a thread. 18:43:39 state machines work, too. 18:43:43 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e177113253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:43:52 and yes, breaking out the input handling, etc. 18:44:06 I'm not familiar with Python, what does a generator should do? 18:44:07 rannger [~rannger@183.44.63.30] has joined #lisp 18:44:19 this is supposed to be a state machine 18:44:24 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:59 one of the states is emulating the device controlling a large motion control system and telling the host app when to capture a frame 18:45:05 -!- schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:45:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:30 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:46:15 if I just use a loop to do that it'll ignore commands from the host app to tell it to stop and reset 18:46:23 callback it shall be 18:46:42 -!- rannger [~rannger@183.44.63.30] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:54 yes, this indeed look a job for a callback 18:49:28 ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:49:46 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.172.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:09 m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:57:36 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:58:39 -!- GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:47 agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:49 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.38.111] has joined #lisp 18:58:53 slimes profiling functions seem to decrease in usefulness when CLOS objects are involved, any idea why? 18:59:07 CLOS is all CL right? 18:59:40 yeah 19:00:11 -!- Shark8 [~Shark8@69-20-190-126.static.ida.net] has left #lisp 19:00:24 nightfly__: what do you mean? 19:00:51 jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 When I have CLOS objects computation time seems to either not be accounted for or be considerably over reported, something that runs for 11 seconds has 50 seconds worth of time accounted for in the profiling report. 19:02:22 Bike_ [~Glossina@75-175-74-238.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:27 Speak to me of environment inquiry. What's it good for, other than decorating bug reports? 19:02:49 'environment inquiry'? 19:02:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-33-209.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:02:56 nightfly__: which implementation are you using? 19:02:59 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 19:02:59 This is SBCL 1.0.55.0.debian 19:03:43 Bike: That's the name of the group of functions like lisp-implementation-version 19:04:15 There is only a one-liner about them in CLHS, which basically comes straight from CLtL. I have gone back to the MacLisp Manual, but everyone seems to take it as self-evident what they are for. 19:04:24 So I was hoping to appeal to Living Tradition. 19:04:34 oh, well, decorating bug reports is nice. i've used lisp-implementation-etc to help confused noobs who installed some CL software without knowing what implementation it uses. 19:05:08 nightfly__: are you perhaps reading the "cumulative" column? That means time allocated to self including any callees 19:05:21 They semi-overlap with *features* and #+/#-, but that's what you are supposed to use to conditionalize your code. 19:06:11 It's not immediately obvious what member of *features* is the implementation, though. 19:06:12 *nightfly__* only has columns seconds | gc | consed | calls | sec/call | name 19:06:43 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-173-63-24-234.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:06:55 schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has joined #lisp 19:07:16 Profiling has been incredibly useful and intuative when not using CLOS classes 19:08:04 Bike: Granted. But I tend to think it's bad policy to conditionalize on specific implementations: you should conditionalize on whether the current implementation has this that or the other. 19:08:15 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:08:57 jcowan: that's not going to help when you want to know whether an extension function is called ext:make-thread or ext:create-thread 19:10:18 Enviornments can be useful for optimizing compilation. But they were not approved as part of the standard, unfortunately. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html#SECTION001250000000000000000 19:10:19 Bike: Granted. But then you don't need to know "What implementation is this?", you need to know "Is this implementation X?", which *features* can do for you. 19:10:36 LiamH: wrong sense of 'environment' 19:10:38 LiamH: Not that kind of environments 19:12:28 -!- schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:12:29 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:12:59 tophalf01 [~Incorrect@c-71-207-142-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-50-12.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 -!- balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:17 jcowan: a cursory grep of lisp-implementation-type uses shows it being mostly used for displaying a name to other programs; for example as a drakma user-agent, or a hunchentoot demo 19:14:19 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 19:14:30 *grep [...] in my quicklisp/ 19:14:35 *jcowan* nods. 19:14:36 Thanks. 19:14:36 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:14:39 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-74-238.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:36 «(format nil "This is the minion bot, running on a ~A (~A) and running under ~A ~A." (machine-type) (machine-version) (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version))» 19:15:46 minion: version? 19:15:46 This is the minion bot, running on a X86-64 (QEMU Virtual CPU version 1.0) and running under SBCL 1.1.6. 19:15:54 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:54 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 19:19:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:19:12 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 19:19:55 nightfly__: the statistical profiler is often more useful. 19:20:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 pkhuong: Didn't know about it, I'll check it out. 19:23:12 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:46 yes http://paste.lisp.org/display/136977 19:27:45 Why are these different? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136978 19:27:59 schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-201-251.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 photex: in one case (function (lambda ...)) is not evaluated, and in the other case it is 19:28:36 property list ? 19:28:46 ok 19:29:04 photex: '(:action #'(lambda () (print "blah"))) is '(:action (function (lambda () (print "blah")))), i.e. the list (function ...) etc is in there. 19:31:08 riiight... ok the ' on the list prevents evaluation 19:31:33 yes. 19:34:23 so using (list ...) instead of ' to create a plist would be the way to go then 19:35:48 That's one option, yeah. 19:35:49 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:36:13 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:37:32 Xach: is there a better way? 19:39:03 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-67.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:39:32 It Depends. That is a fine way. 19:40:51 pnpuff [~Bruijn@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:41:12 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-201-251.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 19:41:25 -!- tiglog [~topeak@114.243.48.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:42:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:45:48 -!- _d3f [~gnu@93.114.45.248] has quit [Quit: guten einkauf.] 19:48:49 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:50:41 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.41.227] has joined #lisp 19:51:49 -!- m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:28 Oberon4278 [~dcrooksto@38.113.0.254] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 -!- pnpuff [~Bruijn@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:56:30 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:57:40 m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 19:59:22 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:28 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:57 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50a8b.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:04 -!- Vicfred [~anon@187.206.82.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:09 bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 20:01:37 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-69-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:02:51 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:03:57 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50a8b.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:04:40 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has joined #lisp 20:06:01 pnpuff [~o@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:06:47 erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:10:35 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:10:42 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:09 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:37 -!- pnpuff [~o@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-194.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:15:39 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@68.71.58.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:17:06 I can't participate on Lisp in Summer Projects. I'm not eligible because I'm brazilian. :( 20:17:44 pnpuff [~iota@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:17:48 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-69-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:17:54 what do they require ? 20:18:02 be american/british/european ? 20:18:02 "The Contest is also not open to residents of Brazil, Italy, Quebec, and Saudi Arabia." 20:18:05 That's bizarre. 20:18:13 oh 20:18:22 US-embargoed countries, I understand, though I disagree. 20:18:26 But why those four? 20:18:49 on the FAQ they explain that they're using the same requirements on the Google Code-It 20:18:58 I haven't caught up on the news, but my latest information is that Quebec is not a country. 20:19:13 actually, the full list is "Cuba, Iran, Myanmar (Burma), North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Brazil, Italy, Quebec, and Saudi Arabia" 20:19:34 Yes, well, the first six are a matter of U.S. law. 20:19:34 I don't understand why Brazil, though. I thought Brazil was in good relations with USA 20:20:34 Indeed. Apparently it is because Brazilian law forbids participation in such contests by minors, and there is no way to check if you are a minor. 20:20:59 uh... wat 20:21:03 oh that's the reason ? 20:21:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:09 lol, ok 20:21:16 we're not minor if we're over 18 yo. That's it 20:21:36 jcowan: usually, local laws on games and contests. For Quebec, you have to register (and pay a tax?) with the provincial contest/bet authority. 20:21:51 means your country's lame in that they don't give off info about you .... 20:22:02 Right. And apparently in Italy the winner must be an Italian citizen. 20:22:22 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:22:40 wbooze: that's... stupid 20:22:50 damn 20:23:12 Denommus: what do you want ? your country tries to protect you .... 20:23:40 -!- pnpuff [~iota@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:23:50 wbooze: oh, right. Because my country is suuuuper secure. Anyway, I don't think here is the place to discuss politics 20:24:34 pnpuff [~i@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:24:40 by not giving info about you right away, that's all....tho i suspect if it's other countries who do the enquiry, and you obliged to participate, (requires both sides to work and check stuff....).... 20:24:46 yeah let's not get into.... 20:25:14 Criticizing stupidities is always on-topic here, I'd say. 20:25:44 dunno why it works with other and not with some.... 20:25:57 wbooze: I know my government will usually get out of its place to protect me from other country. Already saw this happening. One of our most well known politics is a target for the Interpol, and Brazil won't deliver him right away 20:26:04 jcowan: you'd be wrong 20:26:23 oh 20:26:26 adeht: It was a sarcasm 20:26:26 but if I'm the one wanting to give a simple information about myself, and my country doesn't allow it, that's... stupid 20:26:42 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 20:26:47 It's about people aged 13-18, and there is no way to filter them out of the contestants. 20:27:02 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has joined #lisp 20:27:35 Parents don't want kids talking about themselves on the Internet, though there is no real way to stop it. 20:27:43 I know what it's about. I'm still pissed 20:27:53 Fair enough. 20:28:18 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:28:22 I'm an adult, married, I pay my bills, and I can't prove that I'm over 18 because my country won't let me 20:29:11 ckoch786 [~cory@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:36 *jcowan* nods sympathetically. 20:30:13 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.41.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:30 this is the guy that is wanted by interpol, and Brazil is protecting: http://www.interpol.int/Wanted-Persons/(wanted_id)/2009-13608 20:30:38 -!- totimkopf [~jamesmart@unaffiliated/totimkopf] has quit [Quit: hoor] 20:30:47 A free man thinks of nothing less than of death, and his wisdom is a meditation not of death but of life. 20:30:49 and also his son: http://www.interpol.int/Wanted-Persons/(wanted_id)/2009-13612 20:30:56 :-) 20:35:21 -!- m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:13 josemanuel [~josemanue@212.216.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:37:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-137.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:38:22 -!- rk[woodsing] is now known as ryankarason 20:39:58 Denommus, when politics is involved true is weird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Maluf 20:40:22 s/true/truth/ 20:40:36 sellout- [~Adium@c-71-56-237-160.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:53 -!- pnpuff [~i@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:39 Let us speak no more of it for now. 20:41:56 [6502] [4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has joined #lisp 20:43:00 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:43:08 <[6502]> I'm not sure if the question makes any sense, but is *readtable* local for the current package? 20:43:20 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 [6502]: no 20:43:35 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:43:56 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:44:01 [6502]: it is, however, local to the file iirc 20:44:09 -!- Oberon4278 is now known as Oberon 20:44:09 -!- Oberon [~dcrooksto@38.113.0.254] has quit [] 20:44:10 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:44:16 [6502]: LOAD binds it around loading a file. same with COMPILE-FILE. 20:44:25 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@212.216.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:44:28 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:44:43 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:45:01 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:45:04 Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 -!- kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:45:31 <[6502]> jscl has a special hack in the reader so that symbols interned into package "JS" are not converted to uppercase, I suppose this is not possible to do in CL, correct? 20:45:35 kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:45:58 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:46:30 I can't think of a way to do it with standard features. 20:46:33 without your own reader? I don't think so, no. 20:46:38 Oberon4278 [~dcrooksto@38.113.0.254] has joined #lisp 20:46:53 but you can always write your own reader. It should be very small/simple. 20:47:02 <[6502]> may be this is not really used in the form of writing JS:this-or-that 20:47:31 <[6502]> sykomp: hehehe... you're a funny guy :-) 20:47:47 *sykopomp* wasn't kidding :\ 20:47:49 <[6502]> sykomp -> sykopomp 20:48:03 readers really are simple to implement for CL 20:48:41 <[6502]> sykopomp: i was just trying to add handling of symbol escaping to jscl reader, and faced the problem that ab\cd ==> |ABcD| in CL 20:49:56 <[6502]> sykopomp: may be they're simple for your level :-) ... or may be you don't really know how the CL reader algorithm is specified 20:50:24 <[6502]> sykopomp: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 20:50:57 <[6502]> writing A reasonable reader is simple 20:50:57 sesam123 [~sesam123@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:01 <[6502]> the CL reader is not 20:51:20 is lisp created with a parser generator or by hand? 20:51:43 "if you run into a backslash, use the next character literally" doesn't seem that hard or unreasonable 20:52:13 <[6502]> sesam123: let's put this way... every time I see a lisp compiler project that talks about yacc / bison I know I can stop reading further 20:52:52 <[6502]> Bike: it's not... but the problem is that case conversion in jscl is done depending on the package (hardcoded, btw) 20:52:56 [6502]: you mean the parser generators are not as good as hand written? 20:53:17 [6502]: well that's not cl... 20:53:46 <[6502]> sesam123: any single character in a lisp source code can mean anything because you can write reader macros 20:53:47 sesam123: CL is supposed to be read character by character, rather than parsed. users can isntall arbitrary functions to be called during reading, stuff like that 20:54:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:15 <[6502]> sesam123: you can have a lisp program that starts looking like lisp and that after a while looks like a Python program. I'm not making this up. There's actually a project that does this 20:54:31 -!- Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-67.lightwire.co.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:56:37 <[6502]> sesam123: yacc/bison and tools like them are for languages with a syntax, but lisp has not syntax. It actually has two syntax levels (reading and compiling) but neither of them is fixed because you can write reader macros and macros 20:57:54 bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:12 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:14 <[6502]> sesam123: lisp has a PREDEFINED syntax for reading and one PREDEFINED syntax for compiling, but any program can change them 20:58:39 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.138.146.148] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:58:53 Well, within limits. You can't, in general, get the compiler to accept arbitrary versions of `read`. 20:59:02 [6502]: so no syntax means no need for parser? 20:59:18 if there is no reader macros as well 20:59:27 [6502]: a lisp reader is ~200loc of lisp code 20:59:29 if there aren't reader macros it's not CL. 20:59:30 I've written a couple 20:59:33 they're stupid-simple 20:59:54 he hardest part, actually, is writing the parsers for integers and floats. 21:00:02 (which isn't hard) 21:00:26 sesam123: You could use bison for a stripped down lisp. just sexp := '(' sexp* ')' | atom, and so on. but CL isn't like that. 21:00:33 everything else is just reader macros which you can probably steal directly from the curret lisp implementation 21:00:39 brilliant idea by lisp to have the structure in the code 21:01:27 <[6502]> sykopomp: one annoying thing is the dot 21:01:40 what's annoying about it? 21:01:45 it's just a reader macro. 21:01:50 and a tiny one at that. 21:02:22 Of course, reader macros can create phasing problems, depending on how the compiler is implemented. 21:02:28 isn't it just (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\. (lambda (idontremember) (eval (read)))? 21:02:43 Maybe 6502 means the dot in conses. 21:02:43 I didn't even think about reader macros 21:02:46 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:49 and how the hell to implement them 21:02:51 <[6502]> sykopomp: not hash-dot... the dot itself for dot pair notation 21:02:57 ah 21:03:01 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:03 sykopomp: (also you'd need to worry about *read-eval* and stuff) 21:03:12 sykopomp: got a link to a lisp reader? 21:03:17 -!- nahiluhmot [~nahiluhmo@wsip-68-15-43-240.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:18 josemanuel [~josemanue@212.216.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 j`ey: M-. on READ 21:03:43 sorry? 21:03:49 Bike: (when *read-eval* ...) ec 21:03:51 etc 21:04:12 j`ey: reader macros are very simple and part of the regular reader algo 21:04:13 j`ey: slime binds M-. to jump-to-definition. he's telling you to look at your implementation's source. 21:04:21 j`ey: if you use Emacs and SLIME, you can use Meta+. to jump-to-definition. So you can jump to definition of READ 21:04:26 ahhh 21:04:33 I dont use Emacs, SLIME or CL :D 21:05:08 just grab the source code for any lisp implementation. 21:05:10 so download a CL implementation, and use whatever jump-to-definition you have for Lisp 21:05:22 grep the source, luke 21:05:44 j`ey: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm is pretty clear, though 21:05:54 or that 21:06:16 I've been looking a bit at CMUCL 21:06:31 Bike: yeah, had it open, just haven't studied it yet 21:07:31 I liked this function in pcl "tell-compiler-about-gf" :D 21:08:31 i got the pre-cmu PCL from the cmu archives, hoping it would be more readable than SBCL's version. i was horribly, horribly mistaken 21:08:39 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:33 j`ey: https://github.com/sykopomp/clutterscript/blob/develop/src/reader.js here's one in JS, btw 21:10:20 no . support in read_delimited_arry, obv :) 21:12:07 sykopomp: and it's a proper read impl? 21:13:57 oi, what is the best way to load a package (basically just the imports and garantee the dependieces are met with quicklisp). My problem is that I'm trying to load the system with ql:quickload but a file fails to compile and I can't run it in the repl to debbug it 21:17:35 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:18:12 could/should a reader be written in a function style rather than pop? 21:18:15 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:19:31 pop? 21:20:50 sesam123: here there is an attempt to implement a cl-reader if that is what you are intersted it cl https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Reader 21:20:53 oop 21:21:41 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:25 Yuuhi [benni@p5DC63D52.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:53 j`ey: it's not too far from having the features of CL's reader. 21:23:04 cool 21:23:55 I haven't added a #. macro and some other stuff, but you can add reader macros to it, create new readers and use those instead, and there's configuration options and the like. 21:24:32 -!- MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 21:24:37 (it's a toy) 21:24:39 IIRC the basic reader algorithm is simple and most functionality is defined as reader macros 21:24:51 yup 21:24:59 you know like #\( 21:25:24 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:25:34 https://github.com/clutter-lang/clutter/blob/devel/src/reader.lisp here's a similar one in CL 21:26:03 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@212.216.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:26:19 oh Ralith 21:28:27 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-110-197.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:26 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:43 satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:27 Aethaery1 [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 21:32:45 -!- Aethaery1 is now known as aeth 21:33:54 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:33:57 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:45 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:35:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00223a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:35:34 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-194-96.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:39:01 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:32 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:43:29 -!- xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 21:43:48 xan_ [~xan@173-228-88-2.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:09 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:08 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:09 xpoqp [~xpoqp@unaffiliated/xpoqz] has joined #lisp 21:49:28 bitonic` [~user@151.225.13.74] has joined #lisp 21:50:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-110-197.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:15 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-110-197.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:55:33 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 21:59:05 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 22:00:19 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 22:00:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-110-197.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:07:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.67.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:57 -!- subtlepath [~walker@subtlepath.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:34 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:11 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-71-56-237-160.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:33 -!- erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has quit [Quit: erikc] 22:14:47 What is compiler.pure.lisp / MODULAR-CUT-CONSTANT-TO-WIDTH, and why is it failing? 22:17:32 seangrove [~user@c-24-5-81-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:11 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:18:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:21:54 it's failing? 22:22:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:29 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:23:02 logand 254 means we only have to compute the value over 8 bits, which is implemented via fixnum modular arithmetic. 22:24:11 I'm building an unmodified master on PPC now, without my current changes. 22:24:21 ... and I think I opened this question in the wrong channel. Oops. 22:24:30 oh sorry 22:24:33 But, yeah, failing on PPC. 22:25:10 -!- Blueblaze [~Blueblaze@adsl-99-158-45-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Blueblaze] 22:25:32 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:48 pkhuong: well, logand 254 means you only have to compute it over 7 bits actually. But granted, it may be easier to just mask out the 8th bit at the end. 22:26:18 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Desu~~~~] 22:26:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:26:46 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:31 Snamich [~Snamich@netblock-68-183-229-245.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-61.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:41:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-48.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:16 -!- agumonkey [~agu@225.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:08 zygev [zygee1@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-rlixpluuntuxwhtx] has joined #lisp 22:46:00 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:46:35 <[6502]> why is |X||X| joined into XX ? 22:47:18 Because that's the way the escape characters work? 22:47:26 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:47 so can reader macros appear at ANY char? 22:48:01 like 123(some reader macro here)3244 22:48:24 <[6502]> (co|N|d) ==> nil 22:48:32 |x|foo|y| -> FOO is upcased, x and y are escaped 22:48:33 <[6502]> looks interesting 22:48:41 i didn't know that, but i can see why 22:49:05 <[6502]> you can do \xfoo\y for that 22:49:52 <[6502]> i always saw things like |sin+cos| 22:53:57 [6502]: anything but an unescaped terminating-macro character or unescaped whitespace will continue the token 22:54:42 clhs 2.2 22:54:42 Reader Algorithm: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 22:54:52 <[6502]> jasom: now it's clear... it just surprised me 22:55:09 I wish the CLHS was more complicated like the C++11 standard 22:55:25 [6502]: it's analagous with the bourne style foo'bar' 22:56:07 <[6502]> jasom: you say that in a way that looks like it's a good thing 22:56:31 [6502]: I just don't see why an escape character should delineate a symbol 22:59:06 Of course it's a good thing. 23:04:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:55 -!- sesam123 [~sesam123@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: sesam123] 23:06:07 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.195.154.threembb.ie] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:06:14 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 23:06:16 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:21 -!- aeth is now known as Aethaeryn 23:14:24 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:52 <[6502]> sleeptime for me, l8r guys 23:15:56 -!- [6502] [4e0cffe5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.255.229] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:16:23 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.47.36.207] has joined #lisp 23:16:26 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 23:21:55 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-14-160.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: reboot] 23:24:21 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.13.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:45 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:32:48 is this an okay place to ask debugging questions about the Ironclad crypto package? ( http://method-combination.net/lisp/ironclad/ ) (or does anyone have a better crypto library I could use instead?) 23:34:28 -!- travel-infected5 [~travel-in@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:35:09 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.38.111] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1-rc1] 23:37:16 -!- d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:38:04 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:53 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:40:12 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifeform experiment terminated] 23:40:29 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.121] has joined #lisp 23:40:30 you can ask here, yeah 23:42:36 travel-infected5 [~travel-in@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:47 -!- vhost- is now known as trinque2 23:44:01 -!- trinque2 is now known as vhost- 23:49:07 ASau`` [~user@p5797F63D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:51:19 -!- TheSpectre [~MingHong@bb219-74-200-24.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52:07 -!- ASau` [~user@p5797F762.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:53:07 -!- zygev [zygee1@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-rlixpluuntuxwhtx] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:53:08 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:59 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 23:56:57 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:25 -!- schjetne [~schjetne@fsf/member/schjetne] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:58:07 bananagram [~bot@99-153-189-13.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp