00:00:51 Bike [~Glossina@71-34-64-206.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:32 Novimundus_ [~eodnhoj@66.44.30.54] has joined #lisp 00:01:54 How do I set a temporary variable within a function? I've been using (setq x 0) but still nadda. 00:02:15 It's been telling me it's undefined...but doesn't setq initialize variables? 00:03:14 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-34-64-206.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:29 Novimundus_: (let ((x 0)) ... 00:03:36 Novimundus: lexical variables are generally established with let 00:03:54 Okay. So I should be using setq when I want a persistant variable? 00:04:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-64-206.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:04:12 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 00:04:21 what is a "persistent variable"? 00:04:41 probably a global one? 00:04:42 I guess a non-lexical one...somewhere between global and lexical? 00:04:54 usually you'd use a dynamic variable 00:05:14 (defvar *x* 0) 00:05:31 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has joined #lisp 00:05:49 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has quit [Client Quit] 00:05:50 So 3 types of variables: lexical (within scope of function/context), dynamic (passable/referenced), and static (global)? 00:05:53 Does that about sum it up? 00:06:06 no, what is "passable/referenced" 00:06:12 and where'd you get "static" from, this isn't C 00:06:40 there are global constants, lexicals, and dynamics (which can be global) 00:07:05 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:07:15 cades [~mac@1-169-131-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:07 Okay. Will read up on those. 00:08:40 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 00:08:46 What do people tend to use for web servers? 00:09:46 hunchentoot? 00:11:57 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-34-70-231.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:06 yes 00:12:35 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE647B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:12:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-64-206.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:46 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:14:49 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 00:15:27 ikki [~ikki@177.224.211.211] has joined #lisp 00:16:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE647B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:17:15 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:18:12 -!- enymo [~user@67.137.177.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:18:13 -!- ryankara1on [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:13 Aethaeryn: there are a bunch of others, but I don't believe anybody uses them. Franz have their own server, but last I checked their portable version(Portable Allegro Serve) only supported Latin-1 encoding. 00:19:44 ande pretty much all of the web frameworks are built on hunchentoot 00:20:39 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:22:05 What's the recommended minimalist web framework? I always prefer those. 00:22:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@177.224.211.211] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 00:22:24 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:15 I used fcgi and ran nginx as my actual web front end 00:23:30 Is there a 'regular' divide where (23/5 = 4) in Lisp? 00:23:47 nvtruncate 00:23:51 truncate. 00:24:18 thanks 00:24:46 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 00:24:46 I would say that was less regular than returning 23/5 00:24:59 which is, you know, the answer 00:25:41 I am aware...but I am trying to find the magnitude of a number in scientific notation and I can't seem to get it right. 00:26:06 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:26:27 don't you need the log10 then? 00:26:58 ....oh yeah. 00:27:00 ...Wow. 00:27:19 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has joined #lisp 00:27:20 in emacs, is there a way to easily navigate to the of a lisp expression? something like slime-end-of-defun but for any other expression 00:29:42 s/the of a lisp expression?/the end of a lisp expression? 00:31:19 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:40 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:02 ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@68.170.71.124] has joined #lisp 00:34:02 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:34:24 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.223.55.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:07 -!- whartung [~whartung@wsip-70-183-27-154.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: whartung] 00:41:15 codeandcoffeh [18816054@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.129.96.84] has joined #lisp 00:42:29 nicdev, C-M-end ? see C-h b 00:43:01 tenawa [~user@c-98-201-84-26.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:44 zajn [~zajn@64-186-164-221.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:19 dnolen` [~user@rrcs-208-105-4-254.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-136-34.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:42 -!- walter|rtn [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:46:54 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:36 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:52:58 hrs [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 -!- hrs [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:54:47 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.251.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:02:06 Aethaeryn: there is antiweb, by hoytech, if you are interested in something different. 01:04:46 -!- ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@68.170.71.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:04:54 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:05:30 -!- Czechton [~Czechton@cpc4-oxfd23-2-0-cust877.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:13 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 01:13:49 -!- cades [~mac@1-169-131-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:15:25 -!- GOMADWarrior [~Regis@189.34.44.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:19:03 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:26:47 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:36 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:27:37 -!- Kenjin_ [~kenjin@2.80.241.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:13 cades [~mac@1-169-131-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:30 -!- Novimundus [~eodnhoj@66.44.30.54] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:38:32 -!- Novimundus_ [~eodnhoj@66.44.30.54] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:39:51 -!- ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:40:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-70-231.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:41:35 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-44-42.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:09 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:38 I've got a mystifying problem 01:48:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/136803 01:48:56 the iterate package worked just fine for me last week, but I messed something up in the meantime 01:49:41 doesthiswork: use-package 01:49:57 eee [~user@c50-26-74-15.amrlcmtk01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:30 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:53:01 thank you 01:56:05 echo-area [~user@123.120.235.88] has joined #lisp 01:58:09 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-241-50.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:58:11 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:00:00 -!- dreish 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seconds] 02:47:59 -!- frkout [~frkout@80.112.147.124.dy.bbexcite.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:12 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:51:45 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-46-115.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:36 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: It is now safe to turn off your groovebot.] 02:58:02 Is there anything like (member) that works on a list of strings? (member 5 (list 2 3 5 11 13)) correctly tells me that 5 is in that list, but (member "baz" (list "foo" "bar" "baz")) returns nil, probably because it's using (eq) or (eql) instead of (string=) 02:58:09 I thought up this workaround: (member t (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (string= "baz" x)) (list "foo" "bar" "baz"))) 02:58:43 Aethaeryn: :test #'string= 02:59:12 as in, (member "baz" (list "foo" "bar" "baz") :test #'string=) 03:00:31 Ah. I knew it had to be somewhere. 03:00:33 Thanks. 03:02:05 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-95.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:05:13 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:45 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 03:10:52 doomlord [~doomlod@host31-52-58-47.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:25 -!- meiji11 [~user@d75-158-41-148.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:48 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:41 doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has joined #lisp 03:15:12 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:15:12 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:15:12 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:15:12 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.182] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:15:12 -!- yacks 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[~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:59 rhinux_ [~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has joined #lisp 06:21:16 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:22:27 -!- zajn [~zajn@64-186-164-221.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:42 xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has joined #lisp 06:23:32 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:23:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:27:26 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:27:52 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.73] has joined #lisp 06:28:16 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest41300 06:28:41 there is still no one APIs to MariaDB for CL... :( 06:29:08 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:29:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:29:28 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xxbyflmidyfdoppu] has joined #lisp 06:32:36 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:03 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:34:49 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 06:36:26 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:30 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.251.108] has joined #lisp 06:39:43 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 06:46:33 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:49:41 -!- tic_ [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:05 -!- tenawa [~user@c-98-201-84-26.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:52:15 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:37 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 06:54:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:54:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:03:04 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 07:07:47 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:09:55 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:19 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 07:13:41 on Cliki: audio no reference at all to any AAC audio decoder library! :( 07:14:02 no really! 07:14:10 s/at all// 07:14:30 there are not a lot of libraries for common lisp. get on with it. 07:15:03 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: brain damage] 07:19:14 pnpuff: maybe also look for ffmpeg or avcodec 07:19:57 but also consider writing cffi bindings, or using ecl if you need to access C libraries 07:20:25 or abcl to access java libraries 07:20:27 s/access/use/ 07:20:34 agreed 07:20:53 phadthai: maybe using faad2 ... :) 07:24:49 abeaumont [~abeaumont@213.Red-83-61-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:39 -!- cades_ [~mac@1-169-131-162.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:26:20 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jrijdetabjduhkkp] has joined #lisp 07:30:48 jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 07:32:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:34:16 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:37:52 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.84] has joined #lisp 07:38:09 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@e177224007.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:38:30 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:38:41 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 07:41:52 -!- sdemarre [~serge@74.67-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:42:26 -!- jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:42:52 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 07:42:53 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 07:42:53 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:44:30 pierpa` [~user@host76-53-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:45:55 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 07:46:18 -!- pierpa [~user@host28-20-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:50:06 There's an infinite number of libraies for common lisp. just fucking use cffi! 07:50:31 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-227-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:52 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:55:34 Btw, are there any good cffi tutorials? 07:56:55 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 07:57:32 mmm... maybe would be nice list cl-ffmpeg too in http://www.cliki.net/Audio . Why is it not included? 07:59:20 and would be nice include cl-ffmpeg even in http://www.cliki.net/Music ... 08:02:34 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-44-42.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:02:56 it's a wiki, unless it now requires registration you could probably add those 08:03:15 Cliki it's an importan reference and should appear at least in researching "ffmpeg cliki" 08:04:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-70.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:12 There's a complete documentation to cffi. 08:07:04 s/importan/significant/ 08:07:52 -!- Guest41300 [~lukas@194.228.13.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:10:38 pjb: okay, I'll try it, thanks. 08:10:58 hitecnologys: there are also tools to automatize the generation of cffi declarations. Have a look at swig. 08:12:04 pjb: okay, thanks. 08:12:09 wow: SWIG at least it's listed in Cliki! :) 08:12:46 bitonic [~user@151.225.36.236] has joined #lisp 08:17:05 Are there any Quicklisp-distributed libraries which depend on some non-Lisp libraries (C in particular)? I'm thinking of adding one but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. 08:17:49 There are some. 08:18:28 It's as good an idea as using a C library anyways. Ie. bad by definition. 08:18:54 But it's either that, or hiring lispers to rewrite those libraries in lisp 08:19:04 My library uses CFFI and depends on "libvoikko" library which is on Linux distros. 08:19:47 The point here is to document it. I've been using Linux since 1994, and I have never heard of libvoikko. 08:20:11 /bin/ls: cannot access /usr/lib/libvoi*: No such file or directory 08:20:23 It's a spell-checker and language analysis library for Finnish language. (aptitude search libvoikko) 08:20:34 and quicklisp doesn't know about each specific distribution package manager, to install automatically those dependencies. 08:20:45 so it requires a manual installation step. 08:21:34 Perhaps one could add a asdf rule to ask the user to install missing libraries and shelling out? 08:22:19 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3281.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:27 Hmm, or is the CFFI error condition enough? Maybe not. 08:22:56 CFFI doesn't need the library to compile and install. 08:24:59 I was talking about CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR condition which is signalled. 08:25:25 Yes, but usually only at run-time. 08:25:35 AFAIK. 08:35:33 Bacteria [~Bacteria@CPE-120-147-23-118.bjzv4.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:35:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:39:51 -!- ryoshu [~ryoshu@83.143.102.212] has quit [Changing host] 08:39:51 ryoshu [~ryoshu@unaffiliated/ryoshu] has joined #lisp 08:41:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:06 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.57] has joined #lisp 08:49:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:50 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:52:51 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has joined #lisp 08:53:04 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:53:10 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 08:53:30 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3281.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:54:22 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 08:54:35 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:01:23 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:04:30 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:40 ehu [~ehu@static-42-194-112-80.thenetworkfactory.nl] has joined #lisp 09:05:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:07:25 dtw: maybe would be nice use aspell to perform a grammar check... 09:07:53 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-21-199.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:11:47 pnpuff, for Finnish there is a need for more advanced spell-checker back-end. That's why Voikko was born in the first place. 09:12:13 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:13:18 dtw: ok, thx. 09:14:19 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@CPE-120-147-23-118.bjzv4.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 09:14:36 But Enchant library is a general library which uses different spell-checker back-ends. It supports Voikko too. It would be nice if there were Enchant bindings for CL. Maybe I'll have a look some day. 09:15:14 dtw: anyway seem exists even aspell-fi for sid 09:16:37 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.202.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:11 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:21:38 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003a2b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:00 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.57] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:23:01 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:23:35 pnpuff, yes, there are ispell and aspell dictionaries for Finnish. Everybody uses Voikko, though, because ispell/aspell/hunspell/myspell are too limited for Finnish language. 09:27:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:27:23 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:27:24 dtw: thx, it's good to know. 09:27:40 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.239] has joined #lisp 09:28:15 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-028-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:11 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 09:31:58 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:22 davazp [~user@92.251.190.59.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 09:38:15 kal [~kal@dsl-173-206-223-197.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 -!- kal [~kal@dsl-173-206-223-197.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:40 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:50:38 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:50:40 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:51:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-65-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:51:40 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.251.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:53:15 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 09:55:31 Posterdati [~antani@host230-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:57:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:59:07 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-100-197.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:02:36 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:07 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has left #lisp 10:05:49 -!- jenia [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:09:12 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-028-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:45 ingsoc [~hickin@cpc10-salf5-2-0-cust242.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:40 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.10] has joined #lisp 10:17:04 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest1614 10:22:34 kal [~kal@dsl-173-206-223-197.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 10:35:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:41:21 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:37 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:50:13 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 10:52:01 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 10:54:12 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:55:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:00:20 -!- ehu [~ehu@static-42-194-112-80.thenetworkfactory.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01:11 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:01:32 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 11:08:13 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:15 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:10 agumonkey [~agu@147.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:52 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 11:22:29 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - 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Any advice? 12:11:59 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:13:35 what do you want to time? 12:15:08 Routing table entries freshness. 12:16:59 i'd avoid the kind of timers which use interrupts 12:17:15 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-21-199.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 12:19:04 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 12:20:11 stassats: those are interfaces for http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Timers.html, for what I understand. 12:21:14 If I make a new thread for the timer should be ok, no? 12:21:56 if you pass :thread t, it would create a new thread each time, without using interrupts 12:23:48 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:24:19 -!- [1]papyrus [~papyrus@42.82.178.61] has left #lisp 12:25:41 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:21 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:54 -!- bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:27:33 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:28:00 they both support that. Curious though as to why timer is not on quicklisp. 12:28:14 what timer? 12:28:33 stassats: http://www.xach.com/lisp/timer/doc.html 12:28:51 it's built into sbcl 12:29:02 oh 12:29:29 I thought this was a interface to sbcl's timers 12:30:01 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:30:18 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:33:38 found the changelog entry :) 12:35:56 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 12:36:43 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:43 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:39:23 bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:17 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:43:13 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:43:33 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:54 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:44:19 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 12:45:15 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 12:45:42 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:46:02 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has joined #lisp 12:52:02 cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:11 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:20fb:61b6:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:53 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:20fb:61b6:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 12:57:28 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:49 peterhil- [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:58:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:00:07 LiamH [~none@96.231.225.69] has joined #lisp 13:00:26 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.251.108] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:08:09 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:07 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.190.59.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:10:32 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:13:28 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:07 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 13:15:05 ceti331_ [~doomlod@host31-52-58-47.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:26 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003a2b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:16:08 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:17:19 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 13:18:00 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:18:18 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:28 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c0a2a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:52 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:00 ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:36 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c0a2a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:23 sorry for the abuse, but if I want to move to an emacs based email client (connecting to gmail through IMAP, integrated with gpg), then what do you fellow lispers suggest? gnus? wanderlust? 13:25:01 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:20fb:61b6:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:25:14 *stassats* uses gnus and hates it with a passion 13:25:37 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 13:26:05 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:26:42 [1]papyrus [~papyrus@42.82.178.61] has joined #lisp 13:27:18 attila_lendvai: I used fetchmail+gnus 13:27:21 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:41 heh :) I also tried to get used to gnus for a while, but quickly rolled back to gmail.com. I don't know if it's the usual lisp/emacs steep learning curve, or something more fundamental 13:28:02 its age makes me suspicious... 13:28:50 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:24 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30:24 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:53 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:20fb:61b6:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 13:32:13 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:33:27 hello 13:33:43 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 13:34:06 *attila_lendvai* decides to give wanderlust a try 13:36:15 I have problem with YASON encode. When parse json text into CL alist, everything are fine. But when I encode it back, error occurs. 13:36:42 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:36:52 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-77.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:38:35 parse detail config: 13:38:36 (yason:parse stream :object-as :alist :object-key-fn (lambda (string) (intern string *package*))) 13:38:40 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:39:11 what error? 13:39:24 and are you sure that *package* is the right package? 13:40:53 oh…it seems in my app's package 13:41:31 Let me paste error msg: 13:41:33 1 There is no applicable method for the generic function 13:41:33 2 # 13:41:34 3 when called with arguments 13:41:34 4 (|food| #). 13:41:35 5 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 13:41:40 don't paste here 13:41:49 sorry 13:44:59 cades: paste.lisp.org/new 13:45:13 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: this computer sucks] 13:46:31 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:52:15 Guest48566 [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 13:55:22 is somebody arround who succed to build antiweb with clisp on debian? 13:58:43 -!- Guest48566 [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@110.172.225.137] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 14:04:25 what's the problem? 14:06:21 cffi 14:06:37 ffi is locked in clisp 14:07:31 is ok with cmucl and sbcl but fail with clisp 14:08:23 pjb, did you build it with clisp and is working? 14:10:16 sorry, cffi is locked, ffi is ok, :) 14:11:50 I never tried it. 14:12:10 cffi works as well on clisp than on any other implementation. 14:12:37 KDr2 [~KDr2@36.46.111.129] has joined #lisp 14:12:54 if by well you mean not well 14:13:48 But you need to compile clisp with FFI, it's optional. And it depends on external libraries, like libavcall. 14:14:05 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:14:15 davazp [~user@92.251.190.59.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 14:14:38 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:50 i suppose ffi is avaliable by default in clisp on debian 14:15:19 I would not suppose. 14:15:30 (list-all-packages) from clips show it 14:15:34 However, there's indeed no difficulty in having it. 14:15:36 ok. 14:15:46 So it should work. 14:16:22 i have no experience with ffi/cffi, are not different packages? 14:16:49 antiweb is looking for cffi 14:16:58 -!- ingsoc [~hickin@cpc10-salf5-2-0-cust242.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 14:17:41 They are different, but CFFI will use FFI. 14:18:03 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:18:06 cades: there is no default encode method for symbols in yason, but you can implement one trivially 14:19:06 cades: e.g. (defmethod yason:encode ((symbol symbol) &optional stream) (yason:encode (string-downcase symbol) stream)) 14:19:39 peterhil- [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 zajn [~zajn@64-186-164-221.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:51 pjb, i don't know but if cffi is locked in clisp didn't mean it have a problem with it? 14:19:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:08 I don't know what you mean. What error message did you have? 14:20:13 locked? 14:20:25 yes, one minute 14:20:32 what does that even mean? 14:21:41 http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/pack-lock.html 14:21:56 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 what does it have to do with cffi? 14:22:35 cffi is installed and is working in cmucl and sbcl but is locked in clisp 14:22:35 Perhaps antiweb tries to define a symbol in CL thru CFFI? 14:22:52 rszeno: without an error emssage we can't say anything! 14:23:08 rszeno: your description doesn't make any sense 14:23:22 one minute, i will paste a typescript 14:24:11 -!- jimrthy [~james@cpe-70-112-206-173.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:03 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.190.59.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:04 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:34 this is the result of runing build http://e202b7bdddef1041.paste.se/ 14:27:50 -!- kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has quit [] 14:28:29 my fault, seems ffi is locked not cffi, :) but cffi call ffi 14:28:38 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 so, you're not using the correct CFFI version for your clisp 14:29:12 incompatible version? 14:29:47 i used the deb packages which come with debian but is possible 14:30:01 I have the last quicklisp version of CFFI, with the last clisp, and when I load it on gentoo I don't get this error. 14:30:25 could be something debian specific 14:30:27 don't use debian packages for Common Lisp software 14:30:57 rszeno: http://quicklisp.org/ 14:31:02 rszeno: _really_ 14:31:05 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:13 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 the problem is that is a production machine and i use a lot of languages so i avoid as much i can to install something which is in debian 14:33:36 quicklisp doesn't have a debian package 14:33:37 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host77-99-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:33:48 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 rszeno: right. you're looking for support, though. 14:34:12 rszeno: you can build your lisp application outside of the production system, and generate an executable image to be copied to it, without any lisp source dependency. 14:34:18 rszeno: you can keep using debian packages, but you would have to accept that they don't work 14:34:32 sure, :) 14:34:57 i will try to see if i can build a deb package for quicklisp 14:35:00 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:35:26 hi 14:35:32 why would you want to do that? 14:35:36 rszeno: that way lies a tarpit, don't waste your time 14:35:38 rszeno: why do you want to ship source code to your production systems? 14:35:56 are few machines 14:36:07 Denommus: hi. 14:36:14 and probably i will need to do it 14:37:38 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:37:47 You can always load the source text inside the saved executable images, if you needed it for on-the-run maintainance. 14:38:42 rszeno: how did you run antiweb in your development environment? 14:39:03 no, just try to see what can do 14:39:33 peterhil- [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:43 reading docs it look nice 14:39:46 rszeno: use quicklisp. 14:40:08 i will probably do it 14:41:06 -!- Guest49097 is now known as wc 14:41:17 thank you everybody, now i have a clue where to look for solutions, :) 14:41:29 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has joined #lisp 14:43:00 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:17 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-255-222.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:52:00 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:30 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@36.46.111.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:53:44 zyg [55e38e49@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.227.142.73] has joined #lisp 14:54:11 -!- zyg [55e38e49@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.227.142.73] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:59:19 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:05 jenia [~jenia@modemcable058.145-162-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:02:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:23 Is there a simple way to perform general-purpose typesetting tasks with CL? I've looked at cl-typesetting ... is it a still supported project? (the home page http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/html/cl-typesetting.html is actually not working). I'm looking for a a general-purpose document processor written in CL (if it's possible). 15:04:29 pnpuff: why do you need it to be written in cl? 15:04:50 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:56 pnpuff: well, to give you the answer: no, there is no competetive typesetting program written in cl. i'm using xsl-fo and i like it. 15:05:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:07:26 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:08:29 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 15:10:59 https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-typesetting 15:12:11 cl-typesetting is terrible 15:15:19 H4ns: thx. xls-fo is quite interesting . I was hoping to find something like ConTeXt but possibly written in CL... so I asked for a suggestion. 15:15:20 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:15:32 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:42 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:15:46 have you seen this? http://www.create-net.org/work-with-us/it-junior-software-developer-event-management-systems-and-portals 15:16:32 Well good luck. 15:16:32 junior with "proven" common lisp and haskell experience 15:16:34 right. 15:16:50 Well they don't want an old lisper. All right. 15:17:49 "experience" and "junior" does not mix well in general, i'd say. "proven" less so. two hard languages, even _less_ so 15:17:51 -!- ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:18:30 proven lol 15:18:40 Yeah, I've been interviewed for a job like that last year. They're still searching. 15:18:59 -!- ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:19:08 waahahah 15:19:23 -!- zajn [~zajn@64-186-164-221.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:33 people don't recognize that sometimes developers grow with the procject along...... 15:20:04 Oh sure they do. And then they fire them and hire a new junior. 15:20:11 and proven is ......proven by what ? do they require some licensing or so ? 15:20:31 Well, this, I guess they want to do the fizzbuzz check. 15:21:12 asking for experience in languages is dumb 15:21:19 more important is to have experience in paradigms 15:21:50 wbooze : "sometimes developers grow with the procject along" ...... maybe are you referring to Knuth? :) 15:21:51 ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 15:21:51 if you know a pure functional language, it doesn't matter if you have never touched Haskell, you can catch up 15:22:50 and asking for all of this from a junior developer is even worse 15:22:52 Denommus: are there pure languages that are more popular than haskell? ML family isn't pure as far as I know. 15:23:08 ocaml? 15:23:28 unlambda? 15:23:33 why is not pure? 15:23:35 pavelpenev: well, it was just an example, I'm not that much into pure functional languages anyway 15:23:37 ocaml is not pure, it's OO. 15:23:54 i'm just being pedantic, i know you probably meant something along the lines of an ml dialect or similar 15:23:58 you can mix pure functional with OO, it's just sort of ugly 15:23:59 is based on caml which is not oo 15:24:18 Well, OO mixed with anything is ugly. 15:24:31 true, :) 15:24:33 Some would say even OO alone is ugly (but not me, pure OO is nice). 15:24:50 anyway, I read that posts title and was like "Wow, maybe I qualify", then read the post itself... :( 15:25:05 pjb: it depends what you consider pure OO. Java is pure OO, and it's horrible 15:25:20 Denommus: it has int and Integer 15:26:22 pjb: but everything in the language must be handled by creating classes and objects. You can't have a standalone function 15:27:24 might I get some parenscript/who-ps-html help? i don't seem to understand how to nest things - http://paste.lisp.org/+2XKC 15:27:32 if you consider "pure OO" as something more similar to Ruby, in which you can call methods for every type (including classes and functions), then yeah, it's kind of pretty 15:27:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:28:04 smalltalk? 15:28:11 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-173-79.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:28:15 but Ruby is only pretty because of first-class functions and its metaprogramming capabilities 15:28:43 (some people say that Ruby is Smalltalk--. I don't agree. I think Ruby is a Common Lisp--) 15:28:47 *stassats* wishes there was a discussion about CL, not Ruby 15:28:49 Denommus: If I were to praise ruby, I would find many ways to do it, and none of them would include the word "pretty". 15:29:19 walter [~walter@ip-64-134-101-130.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-174-175.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:48 stassats: the discussion is about what pjb calls a pure-OO language, actually 15:30:06 Denommus: too bad we have a legal document defining what a common lisp is, and ruby happens to not conform to the definition :) 15:30:19 I think PCL says that everything in Common Lisp is an object, too. Is this true? 15:31:22 pavelpenev: attention to the "--". Ruby is a crippled Common Lisp. The interal object system that Ruby uses is similar to CLOS, but it is hidden by an ALGOL syntax that... well, kills the purpose of CLOS 15:31:38 xificurC [~xificurC@adsl-dyn236.78-98-85.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 15:31:50 Denommus: (class-of 100) -> # so, yeah, everything is an object 15:32:58 everything is a lambda term. 15:33:34 everything is everything 15:33:38 the tao of Lisp 15:33:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:33:48 or even better: the Lisp of Lisp 15:33:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:52 Denommus: the -- is a badly defined operation when applied to programming languages 15:35:02 everithing is everithing by means of a transformation rule. 15:35:06 how do you initialze a let var to be of type number but don't say it's value ? 15:35:14 (decf Common-Lisp) 15:36:45 wbooze: what is that that you're trying to do? 15:36:55 only globals are allowed to be unbound.....meh 15:38:26 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:36 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 Denommus: i got an answer from the author of ragged-right in clx, got it to work, the problems seems to be an initialization error, (let (actual-height nil) (actual-width nil)......(setf (actual-height height) (actual-width width))...... 15:38:58 ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:01 ofc nil is not of type number 15:39:17 but (let (actual-height 0) (actual-width 0).... works 15:39:33 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 15:39:57 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:57 you mean (let ((actual-height 0) (actual-width 0)) ...) 15:40:28 err yes 15:40:29 is suppose he use nil to test if is defined 15:40:57 why do you need it to be unbound? Couldn't you just initialize it with the right value from the beginning? 15:41:00 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:41:17 if you know the values 15:41:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:41:40 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:50 well that works too....but the author thought it was an expose-event error there, which it is not.... 15:42:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:42:23 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:42:28 (or integer null)? 15:42:51 oh 15:43:09 nha [~prefect@koln-5d815b18.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 actually, that can bu a fixnum, since I doubt you're going to have a giant screen :) 15:43:41 negative values too 15:43:54 i'll try 15:45:14 what does a declaration have anything to do with it? 15:45:36 (or (integer 0 +max-resolution-or-romething+) null) 15:45:42 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:51 (or (integer 0 +max-resolution-or-something+) null) rather 15:46:11 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 15:46:36 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest10009 15:46:37 the declarations won't affect how your NIL is treated as an argument to > 15:46:50 davazp [~user@92.251.217.112.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 15:47:15 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:55 -!- Guest10009 is now known as PuercoPop` 15:48:19 -!- PuercoPop` is now known as PuercoPop 15:48:42 it expects real not integer 15:48:53 surprisingly, integer is real 15:49:51 wbooze: what does the type has to do with it? 15:50:01 are you just trying random things until it works? 15:50:01 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d815b18.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:13 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 15:50:14 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-21-199.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 -!- kal [~kal@dsl-173-206-223-197.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:56:10 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.130] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.251.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:03:16 -!- hitecnologys1 is now known as hitecnologys 16:10:59 wbooze: looks at Dedekind cuts for the construction of real numbers. 16:11:21 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 16:11:21 there we go again 16:11:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:12:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-71.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:43 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 16:13:00 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:08 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 GOMADWarrior [~Regis@189.34.44.144] has joined #lisp 16:14:05 stassats: sorry, even the irrational numbers! 16:15:02 pnpuff: do you not realize that what you're saying right now doesn't come anywhere close to being relevant? 16:15:28 wbooze: i would suggest initializing actual-height and actual-width to requested-height and requested-width 16:16:31 my window manager manages to sent configure-notify before exposure 16:17:38 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:48 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:53 stassats: maybe the Computability of Real Numbers is not relevant. I'm sorry. :) 16:18:26 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:45 no, you're just playing the game of free associations 16:19:40 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:41 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-36.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:21 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:24:34 stassats: ok, but an irrational number is computable or not? 16:24:53 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-95.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 16:29:54 pnpuff: some irrational is computable (e.g. pi, there's an algorithm that can compute the nth digit); most are not, however. 16:30:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:30:38 ryankara1on [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:49 -!- ryankara1on [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:31:07 ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:56 Flame_Alchemist: right, thx a lot. 16:32:47 Flame_Alchemist, imo computation doesn't require to have the result represented as a real number 16:32:58 remainder: this is off-topic 16:33:15 man, it would be pretty damn weird if GUI programming involved dedekind cuts 16:33:24 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:44 Flame_Alchemist: really not all real numbers are computable... 16:34:29 rszeno: I am not really sure what you mean, but I don't think you can represent pi as a non-real number 16:34:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 16:35:23 true, :) my fault i was thinking to rational numbers, :) 16:35:39 jimrthy [~james@cpe-70-112-206-173.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:00 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:12 -!- jimrthy [~james@cpe-70-112-206-173.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:40:18 pnpuff: well the most notable example of non-computable real is the chaitin's constant (it represents the probability that a random tm halts) 16:42:03 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:11 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:11 howlandlr [~mlb@cpe-075-181-039-236.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:46 Flame_Alchemist: yes, many algebraic numbers and even transcendental numbers are computable. 16:46:35 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 *all* algebraic numbers 16:48:21 -!- [1]papyrus [~papyrus@42.82.178.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:32 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.37] has joined #lisp 16:50:27 ...but *not* all transcendental numbers 16:52:01 in Brouwers' theory, *all* numbers are computable (and *all* functions are continuous) 16:52:18 but then, you don't have excluded middle. 16:53:36 -!- walter [~walter@ip-64-134-101-130.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:54:14 wow, thx a lot Fare. 16:56:23 indeed, only computable things "exist", and you need proof positive (computable) before you say something is true, so sometimes you can prove neither a thing nor its contrary. 16:56:57 ...sure! 16:57:18 so numb. 16:57:44 you may feel numb, I feel number 16:59:23 pjb: are you maybe referring to the :) 16:59:31 Linkin Park song ?? 17:06:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07:49 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.130] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:08:19 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:10:45 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:11:38 -!- N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has left #lisp 17:13:13 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 17:13:25 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:57 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:14:24 -!- cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:14:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:05 ejohnson1 [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:29 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@216.1.187.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:51 pnpuff: no, if it was a reference, perhaps to The Wall, but just that a universe where we could usefully consider only computable things would be nice. 17:18:09 pjb: ok, now I know the BHK-interpretaion of the intuitionistic logic. Thx. 17:18:34 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:56 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:24:17 p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 17:25:21 -!- ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has left #lisp 17:28:50 -!- xificurC [~xificurC@adsl-dyn236.78-98-85.t-com.sk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:28:55 pjb: anyway, I think Fare was referring to the constructive mathematics. 17:29:19 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:31:13 pnpuff, :-) 17:31:23 I didn't know it was called BHK! 17:31:54 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.106.209] has joined #lisp 17:35:37 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-61-39.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:45 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 17:38:01 jwo [~jeff@pool-173-79-231-248.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-36.ptld.qwest.net] has quit 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[~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:28 [1]papyrus [~papyrus@42.82.178.61] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003a2b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:52:04 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.170.127] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:52:18 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:06 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.170.127] has joined #lisp 20:55:52 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-051ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:56:06 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.170.127] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:56:20 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboo145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.170.127] has joined #lisp 20:59:30 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj110.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:01:17 -!- baggers [~yaaic@cpc5-cbly5-2-0-cust10.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:07:01 dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-95.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:04 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 21:07:26 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-051ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 21:08:02 Is there anything less detailed, but more navigation-friendly than the Hyperspec? It hasn't been updated since 2005 and it shows. I guess I could use Google's "site:" tag or something to navigate it faster if I had to. 21:10:40 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.170.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:10:44 Aethaeryn: if you're using emacs, you can try hyperspec.el 21:10:49 What does "more navigation-friendly" mean? 21:11:52 Xach: Well, it's mostly a speed issue for me 21:12:31 Speed of what? 21:13:17 hmm, nevermind, M-x hyperspec-lookup. 21:13:38 I use http://l1sp.org/ for lookup a lot. http://xach.com/clhs too. 21:14:25 Xach: Yes, something exactly like your second link is what I was looking for. 21:14:44 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:56 Having to click through several pages and then Ctrl+F search on the browser to find something was too slow for me. 21:15:14 C-c C-d h 21:22:56 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:20fb:61b6:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:22:59 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:23:50 -!- akovalenko` [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:24:03 Aethaeryn: There is a relatively new project called the minispec: http://minispec.org/ it seems to be what you are looking for. 21:24:29 be advised, the page says it is still a work in progress. 21:25:15 pavelpenev: Yes, that's also the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks. 21:25:37 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:3476:5453:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 21:32:25 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-250-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:35 what's the point of this "minispec"? it's not a spec at all 21:34:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-70.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:11 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-211-51.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:17 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:34:59 i couldn't figure it out either. 21:36:26 ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 minispec looks a tryal, bacause of for example typep or deftype are missing... 21:38:14 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:25 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:38:25 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 21:38:45 ...looks a "crude" tryal 21:42:50 "The MiniSpec started out as a cheat-sheet that evolved into something more. The project's goal is to help Common Lisp programmers quickly find what they need." <- From the readme. 21:43:11 So it didn't start out as a spec, so that's probably why it's lacking things. 21:43:22 I need money 21:43:39 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:43:46 will it help me find my wallet? :) 21:44:54 bitonic [~user@151.225.36.236] has joined #lisp 21:45:00 adeht: Well, emacs already has M-x find-wallet 21:45:34 gives me ~/.bitcoin/wallet 21:45:42 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:47:12 anyway.. so far I'm not impressed with that site. also, I don't think it's a good idea for people to have sources other than the hyperspec for CL reference 21:48:07 adeht: Ideally, a project like that should be a reorganization of the Hyperspec information rather than its own reference, but that might be a problem because of copyright issues. 21:48:37 does it need to be reorganized? 21:48:46 Perhaps an emacs script that knows how to read the hyperspec and rearrange it within a buffer to present it in a context-relevant way would get around such issues because you would have to provide the Hyperspec. 21:49:13 Aethaeryn: pkhuong mentioned C-c C-d h 21:49:35 Aethaeryn: there's also C-c C-d ~ and some more 21:49:37 adeht: Yes, I know, but this still requires leaving emacs for the web browser. 21:49:46 Aethaeryn: nope.. 21:49:51 Aethaeryn: use emacs-w3m 21:50:01 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-227-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:50:38 munge [~user@ip72-209-237-151.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:56 A script specific to the hyperspec would probably render it better than a general web browser like emacs-w3m, so there is still a place to write one, if someone wanted to. I guess it's mainly an issue of if someone wants it badly enough to write it. 21:51:00 Where's the harm? 21:51:20 schjetne [~user@fsf/member/schjetne] has joined #lisp 21:51:27 it does a fine job already 21:51:46 Right, which is why you wouldn't write such a script. 21:51:56 That sort of thing is subjective. 21:52:32 what the hyperspec needs is a new design 21:52:43 some css magic 21:53:12 although it looks quite good given its age 21:53:20 Aethaeryn: the correctness and the completness of the documentation it's foundamental. It's not a "time" nor a "easiness" matter only. HyperSpec it's a good reference for CL. 21:53:58 prxq: Yes. One of my points (besides the difficulty in navigating it, although there are workarounds like C-c C-d h) is that it definitely looks like it was written in 2005. 21:54:04 finding things in the hyperspec is really easy 21:54:27 Aethaeryn: which is quite a feat, given its age :-) 21:54:30 Yes, finding things are easy when you use an outside tool :P 21:54:50 -!- valeryz [~user@172-82-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:54:53 Aethaeryn: symbol index -> there 21:55:25 Why take several steps, ultimately ending in C-F and typing to find the symbol on a long list, when you can just directly type the symbol and save a lot of time? 21:55:50 You're going to type it anyway, so might as well type it at the first step. 21:56:36 pnpuff: On a website there's the data, but then there's the presentation and navigation of the data. 21:56:43 http://i.imgur.com/QoTWMND.png looks great to me 21:56:50 don't see how css could improve on that :) 21:57:13 well, the effort is almost double of almost nothing. 21:57:54 ffilozov [~user@2a02:8071:2223:6a00:2d14:19cf:fcef:6942] has joined #lisp 21:58:01 -!- ffilozov [~user@2a02:8071:2223:6a00:2d14:19cf:fcef:6942] has left #lisp 21:58:07 ffilozov [~user@2a02:8071:2223:6a00:2d14:19cf:fcef:6942] has joined #lisp 21:58:15 kanwei [~kanwei@unaffiliated/kanwei] has joined #lisp 21:58:26 adeht: That actually looks better than the website itself because it's consistant with the experience you'd get in reading manuals. The Hyperspec in something like Firefox is no longer consistant with the web browsing experience because most sites have been revised since 2005. 21:59:10 One styling issue with old sites (and I visit a lot of them) is that they were designed for smaller, more squarish screens, and so if you have a large 1080p monitor, you basically have to use the browser in windowed mode to make the wrapping manual (and because I visit a lot of sites like this, I do). 21:59:43 Unfortunately, this then means that I need to resize the window between sites because now a lot of new sites *assume* wide screen and so my browser window is too tiny to render them properly. 22:00:05 Seriously, just changing the CSS would probably do the trick. 22:00:27 that is the website itself 22:00:48 just a local copy 22:01:37 adeht: That's the contents of the website itself, but not how the website is intended to be rendered visually. 22:01:50 If anything, that proves the point that the issue is with the CSS, and not with the actual content of the site. 22:02:21 Aethaeryn: I believe there are two different versions of hyperspec css style 22:02:24 Aethaeryn: is it maybe the Abstract Stone Duality no longer consistent with computable topology? 22:02:31 Aethaeryn: there's the old one (grey) and the new one (white) 22:02:55 the style sheet of the clhs is quite cute 22:03:23 Anyone know whom to talk to about removing a project from common-lisp.net? I sent an e-mail to admin@common-lisp.net, but no response. 22:04:02 ffilozov: why would you want to remove it? 22:04:15 i mean, your q is ok, jsut curious 22:04:22 just, even 22:04:54 Regis__ [~Regis@189.34.44.144] has joined #lisp 22:05:23 prxq: It's useless. 22:05:49 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:55 And not very good. :) 22:06:57 ffilozov: due to the move you might just have to wait a bit 22:07:24 -!- GOMADWarrior [~Regis@189.34.44.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:07:43 prxq: Apparently clhs.css is 4 lines. 22:07:49 prxq: Ok. Thanks. 22:08:11 Aethaeryn: indeed :-) 22:08:14 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Data/clhs.css 22:08:45 hehe, that is very cute. 22:08:46 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:3476:5453:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:50 So, yes, apparently the issue is that "modern" browsers have dumb defaults because they assume that websites will say a lot to make it pretty. Text-based browsers don't assume this, and so clhs looks better in them because it looks consistant. 22:09:59 i don't think the clhs looks bad, especially when compared with other pages from that era. But it could look a lot better 22:10:03 I wonder if Lispworks.com would accept a donation of CSS from someone? 22:10:24 It could only help with CL adoption, right? Since the Hyperspec is what people are referred to. 22:10:36 personally I like it the way it is, even in chrome 22:10:43 Other languages have had numerous style revisions to their online references since 2005. 22:10:47 the problem is that you'd need to change the html. Fill it with
and stuff 22:11:18 and then go through a ton of text. 22:11:31 Aethaeryn: maybe you should contact them. 22:11:36 prxq: Yes, this is probably why HTML/CSS should be generated dynamically and separated from the text itself. 22:12:24 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:12:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.84] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:12:28 prxq: Even just one simple change in the css, though, would make it slightly more usable. Adding a maxwidth so that you don't wind up with very, very, very long lines on 1080p monitors. 22:12:30 Aethaeryn: no idea if you win that much. The source text has to be marked up somehow too 22:12:48 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:12:49 Aethaeryn: you can use greasemonkey or whatever 22:12:57 I don't think offering alternative css is a crime. 22:13:11 Yes, but the markup could be more user-friendly than the HTML. *foo* is better than foo imo. 22:13:41 -!- ffilozov [~user@2a02:8071:2223:6a00:2d14:19cf:fcef:6942] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:13:49 (:* foo) is better! 22:13:49 Aethaeryn: I suspect for Lisp it may not be such a great idea 22:13:53 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1896:64db:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 22:14:07 -!- finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has left #lisp 22:15:15 Aiwass [~user@188.27.124.61] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 adeht: I actually use that for HN, for exactly the same problem. It makes one change, setting a fixed width for the table (not too many sites today use tables) at 800px. Hmm, interesting it seems to have broken. Oh, need to change it to https because of Https Everyhwere. 22:17:25 (Actually, two changes, it also changes the background color to match the table background color) 22:18:18 Aethaeryn: I am talking about your markup remark 22:18:23 prxq: I was just talking about a general markup system that's popular today, e.g. markdown or rst. Using s-expressions instead of directly writing HTML is another alternative. 22:19:01 adeht: I was replying to "you can use greasemonkey or whatever", it took me a few minutes to find and fix the issue I found in my script. 22:19:58 zickzackv [~faot@g225059114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:24 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:21:28 prxq: Actually, can't macros just be used to make a direct representation of HTML in s-expressions into a more human-readable system if the HTML/CSS is complicated? There's no need for all sorts of complexity (templates, markup languages, etc.) if only the Internet chose s-expressions instead of SGML as the basis for HTML! 22:23:24 And at 1958, S-expressions are older than the 1960s precursor to SGML and thus XML/HTML. (According to some quick Wikipedia skimming.) So there's no excuse for not using S-expressions! :-( 22:24:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:28:14 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.200.191] has joined #lisp 22:28:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:27 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:41 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:06 -!- zickzackv [~faot@g225059114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:34:04 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0a2a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:39 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.225.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:42:34 Aethaeryn: now the questios is which s-expression->html system should you use: http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20generator Keep in mind that is not a complete list. 22:42:36 :) 22:42:45 Aethaeryn, but contrarily to XML, S-expressions haven't been standardized. 22:43:26 Fare: Well, they've been standardized in several ways :P 22:43:29 (h1 "hello") vs (:h1 "hello") vs (<:h1 "hello") 22:43:51 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:44:14 -!- Aiwass [~user@188.27.124.61] has left #lisp 22:44:29 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-238-165.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:52 pavelpenev: That problem would be solved for us if browsers worked directly in s-expressions. Perhaps, then, it's a good thing that they don't so that we *get* choice. 22:45:41 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:10 Aethaeryn: name me a standard used in browsers that doesn't suck in some horrible way :) 22:49:24 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-72-225-195-95.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:37 pavelpenev: Maybe those suck *because* they're standards used in browsers. 22:50:39 If browsers used s-expressions somewhere, I'm sure their standard form would suck compared to alternatives. 22:53:44 Aethaeryn: if s-expressions are used only as another way to specify a dom three, then yes, they would suck, because the dom sucks. Yes,two parens are nicer than four angle brackets, but thats about it when it comes to the advantages. 22:58:46 Aethaeryn: you may find this post interesting: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4917ba734ce860c4 23:00:33 pavelpenev another advantage is that values can be something other than strings 23:00:35 pavelpenev: If there's a mobile version of Lisp that's active, you could probably write a mobile app in Lisp and completely bypass the browser altogether. I'm not sure there's much demand to do so on the desktop though. The problem is, the browser is well-tested, available on almost every platform, and used by almost everyone. It's a *very* good client to deploy too for usage share reasons, even if it sucks from a technology perspectiv 23:01:19 Unfortunately, a very common use case for the near future is going to be having an interesting backend that then talks to a very ugly client, i.e. a web browser. 23:01:42 At least masking some of the syntactic ugliness to make the code more manageable is a good thing, imo. 23:02:20 Aethaeryn: The part about web development I hate the most is the one on the other end of an http connection :) 23:02:45 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:03:23 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:12 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:32 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:19 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:05:55 pavelpenev: Well, perhaps using an HTML generator, a CSS generator, and something like Parenscript is ultimately putting lipstick on a pig, but from an optimistic perspective, at least there's lipstick available. We don't really get a choice about the pig part. 23:06:47 adeht: Yes, that's a good link. 23:08:21 -!- schjetne [~user@fsf/member/schjetne] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:09:49 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboo145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:10:22 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:05 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.36.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:15:00 ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-63-82-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:12 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:22:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:46 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:19 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:38 LiamH [~none@96.231.225.69] has joined #lisp 23:37:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:39:27 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.209.24.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:15 ASau` [~user@p4FF97886.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:18 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:07 jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 23:51:34 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF97E4B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:44 -!- jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:53:04 jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 23:53:22 Krystof: I think the new sbcl catches a new kind of error. 23:53:33 Or rather, newly catches an old kind of error. 23:55:23 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:55:26 (define-condition foo () () (:default-initargs nil)) signals an error at compile-time 23:55:42 or whichever-time; it didn't signal any error before. 23:55:48 only make-hash in quicklisp is affected. 23:56:30 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:34 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp