00:00:36 It's just really quiet... and I rarely get on IRC. 00:01:22 mjb9Mike: you could look at the things format uses. 00:01:53 I bet format has some interesting code. 00:02:32 mjb9Mike: have a look at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 00:02:36 -!- elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:07:57 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:08:52 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:47 elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 00:11:40 antifuchs: do you know who invented the backwards smiley? (-: 00:11:51 I've always felt a little alienated from lisp because, like early pascal, it's a little to isolated from the system. I'm more of a unix/c guy. I do like a lot of things in lisp, but it's not as easy to use with unix, as perl (for example) is. 00:12:17 luis: hmmmm! I think I recall reading about it once, but don't remember who (: 00:12:25 (I'm sure you do, though) (: 00:12:38 David Touretzky! 00:12:55 ! 00:12:59 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~sef/Orig-Smiley.htm 00:13:42 But I want to work on some AI projects I have, and I'm feeling a little behind. 00:13:43 Guest52510 [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:46 hahaha, luis 00:14:06 I'm not going to read that... just tell me what the copyright terms are... 00:14:19 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:23 luis: I know we can rely on lispers to make good paren-related jokes (: 00:14:48 mjb9MIke: what exactly is it you are hoping to receive from this channel? 00:15:35 your postings sound suspiciously like some kind of prepared slogans or scripts 00:16:03 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:44 maybe it's a bot? written in Python? 00:18:14 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:53 I downloaded Hunchentoot and it's running. I have a little web stuff using CL-WHO, but I'm not much of a web programmer... and I don't want to spend too much time on Hunchentoot if I should be using something else... is it still well liked / used? 00:19:15 mjb9Mike, fastcgi 00:19:33 Hunchentoot is well liked and used, but personally I have been trying to revive Portable Allegroserve as well. 00:19:37 we depend on it in our project. 00:19:47 so i like to see it well-supported as well. 00:20:14 recently I helped a little bit to make sure it runs well with CCL and LispWorks on all platforms, and SBCL on Linux and Mac 00:20:15 _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:20:15 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:20:26 (well actually the SBCL port didn't need any of my help...) 00:20:58 it would be cool to see it working with ECL and CLISP too and especially ABCL... 00:21:01 why on earth do you not use fastcgi for web? 00:21:19 my portable fastcgi with usocket wasn't exactly... received, at all 00:21:35 xaxisx [~xaxisx@192-0-130-139.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:58 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:22:02 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:20 what's fastcgi? 00:22:30 i like my things to be in Lisp all the way down, if possible. 00:23:10 gendl, interop between real web servers and programming 00:23:15 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@101.170.119.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:23:16 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 00:23:27 persistent CGI, basically 00:24:25 it also comes with an authorizer 00:24:39 so there's no need to push files over the lisp, just give an OK 00:25:08 all these lisp web servers seem like toys compared to nginx + fastcgi + lisp 00:25:16 scratch that. they /are/ toys 00:26:23 weirdo: and still, communicating with an SQL database (at least used to be) much heavier on the server than using hunchentoot. so perhaps you're right and hunchentoot is a big fat slow toy, it's likely not the bottleneck in your application. 00:26:57 weirdo: maybe I'll be enlightened some day, but somehow I feel it won't be by someone named "weirdo" in an internet chat room. 00:27:01 (fastcgi) persistent CGI, basically... (I've been reading about it)... it keeps the app running and sends requests and gets answers back via IPC.. so the app can maintain a state and doesn't have start-up overhead. A very simple idea... it appears it doesn't do much for you though. You would still benifit from some sort of web-app framework... I saw Weblocks in ASDF... but I have only spent an hour or so on it... nothing running yet. (Webloc 00:27:21 madnificent, still, there's little reason for hunchentoot to exist in the first place with prior art such as fastcgi 00:27:28 where did that 'worse is better' bit come from? 00:27:31 ... Weblocks is unrelateed to fastcgi... 00:28:03 weblocks could be made to work with fastcgi 00:28:08 weirdo: well hunchentoot takes me about 10 seconds to setup. and i don't need an extra webserver for it. so for me, hunchentoot is a very very good choice. 00:28:29 madnificent, many people already have a web server 00:28:37 mjb9Mike: your image keeps running with hunchentoot too. it's a nice thing to have. fastcgi doesn't do worse. 00:28:41 weirdo: good for them. 00:28:54 Is fastcgi a web server? It looks like a module.. maybe for Apache? 00:29:06 well, the zappa-thing (hunchentoot) could be made to work with nginx reverse proxy, so no biggie 00:29:09 mjb9Mike, no 00:29:11 Ya, Hunchentoot is part of your lisp image... 00:29:15 it's a protocol 00:29:53 that nginx and apache-crapola implement 00:30:04 weirdo: i'd prefer to have a faster lisp webserver, than hooking my lisp image up to something i have less control over. 00:30:05 don' get me started on apache 00:30:21 madnificent, that involves tons of platform-specific code 00:30:51 nginx already works well on 'doze 00:30:51 weirdo: and i would still prefer it. i get that it might be quite some work. 00:31:09 Ah, fastcgi is a protocol (soft of like a module) many web servers support... ok. 00:31:09 sykopomp: how far did you get with conserv's follower? 00:31:28 any of you got commonqt working on doze? 00:32:16 put my project on hold because of the complexity involved 00:33:59 So fastcgi or Hunchentoot both work well... but CL-WHO is very simple. Weblocks looks a lot more sophisticated, but I'm no genius, and getting old... but I need some sort of layer to simplify my web interface. Any advice there? 00:34:28 mjb9Mike, i'd use sum types for the html layer 00:34:44 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:48 "sum types"? 00:34:55 mjb9Mike, tagged union 00:35:06 it's something lisp pretends doesn't exist 00:35:39 one thing that's missing now is exhaustiveness check 00:36:04 but optima is good step toward proper structure support 00:36:23 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:36:53 mjb9Mike: #lispweb. i tend to use a simple set of scripts which makes page definition arguably simpler. and that's about it. 00:38:24 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:16 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.26.139] has joined #lisp 00:42:16 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:42:22 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 00:42:51 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.140.157] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 00:44:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-252-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:44:25 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-252-201.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:30 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:47:33 ozialien [~ernest@ip98-167-220-198.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:47 -!- Knirr [~Knirr@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:38 -!- rk[clouds] is now known as ryankarason 00:55:57 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 00:55:59 madnificent: what? 01:00:46 -!- Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:05:29 -!- notori0us is now known as GNUtori0us 01:06:18 -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:10:07 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:14 twas about webservers. lisp webservers weren't getting much love in the discussion and thus i started wondering what came of conserv (but IIRC, it was to be consumed by another project) 01:13:45 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:38 there are (were?) a couple of conserv-like things. 01:16:15 wilton [~wilton@177.80.88.102] has joined #lisp 01:16:49 IanMalcolm [~IanMalcol@177.41.161.228] has joined #lisp 01:16:50 1 01:16:58 i mostly wanted to quote it for the amount of requests it could serve. but the fastcgi arguments seem to have died, and i'd prefer not to get them back in some zombie-state 01:17:04 Guest52510: i raise you by 2! 01:22:02 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:22 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:40 -!- Guest52510 [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 01:26:08 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:11 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 01:36:11 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 01:37:53 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:33 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:38:50 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@192-0-130-139.cpe.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 01:44:49 -!- wilton [~wilton@177.80.88.102] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 01:45:20 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 01:45:26 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 01:47:22 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:54:39 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:14 newblue [~newblue@116.26.57.226] has joined #lisp 02:00:12 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@59.40.37.246] has joined #lisp 02:00:29 -!- elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:01:21 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.26.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:03:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:06:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.225.146] has joined #lisp 02:06:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.225.146] has quit [Changing host] 02:06:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:07:17 rhinux [~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has joined #lisp 02:08:20 sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.43.142] has joined #lisp 02:09:12 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:09:16 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:10:23 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-65-96-162-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:07 What a fantastic lisp meeting! 02:12:39 where ? 02:13:04 Cambridge. MIT then Mary Chung 02:13:40 Cambridge is too far 02:14:18 sw2wolf: Cambridge is the center of the Lisp world! 02:14:45 Only time Ive seen 200 people show up to a lisp meeting ;) Bigger than most lisp conferences. 02:15:34 kent pitman made it to the dinner 02:16:04 Oh nice. I dont think Ive seen him since OOPSLA  uh, whenever it was in Nashville. 02:16:16 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:23 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:41 -!- IanMalcolm [~IanMalcol@177.41.161.228] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 02:17:00 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:59 the talk was also very cool, was about straightedge-and-compass modeling of stringed instruments by using scheme for abstractions 02:18:28 not a huge turnout but a lot of fun 02:18:51 we were 12 or 13 02:19:00 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:15 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 02:19:44 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:11 Hello Xach 02:20:15 I have a question 02:20:34 -!- breakds_ [~breakds@ppp-70-226-173-79.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:20:50 Xach: If I move the official repository for a project, what's the proper way to inform QL? 02:21:17 loke: github issue at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues is great 02:21:26 OK, cool 02:21:35 I'll do that 02:21:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:22:16 Another question: Is there a way to get a hold of all the .asd files for all the systems? I'd like to have a way of searching the descriptions (useful for when I'm looking for a library that can satisfy a specific need) 02:22:54 (that's something I have wanted from QL itself for quite a while ;-) ) 02:24:06 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:16 Xach, what's your opinion on https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/485#issuecomment-15994758 02:24:50 Terrible. 02:25:04 That is wearing my non-quicklisp-maintainer hat. 02:25:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.251.116] has joined #lisp 02:25:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.251.116] has quit [Changing host] 02:25:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:25:24 as quicklisp maintainer i try not to consider how good an idea might be when adding it. 02:25:31 Xach, :))) 02:28:40 Let over Lambda is classic, huh. 02:29:36 Quadrescence: Why don't you just public domain the changes instead? 02:29:47 loke, that isn't me 02:29:50 Quadrescence: i'm with Xach in the situation where he's wearing his non-quicklisp-maintainer-hat :) 02:30:10 Oh, sorry :-) 02:30:11 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:30:21 Xach: nice hat-rack 02:31:54 A way to exclude GPL libraries in QL would be useful too 02:33:31 loke: it would be nice to be able to easily query such metadata, yes 02:33:41 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:30 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:40:31 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.218.213] has joined #lisp 02:46:38 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:47:46 while I'm very eager to have a secure reader, using anaphora for it seems not indicated 02:47:57 jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:31 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:50:13 antifuchs: clim was discussed in the cracks 02:50:19 oh my 02:50:25 did i hear clim 02:50:33 i heard you were going to open-source it with your connections, right? 02:50:41 ahahaha 02:51:02 if I can buy the IP from the (literal) clown that now appears to own it? 02:51:16 CLIM is owned by a professional clown? 02:51:25 antifuchs: what what? 02:51:28 I don't even remember the whole story behind the symbolics IP anymore /-: 02:51:28 what 02:51:35 oh, symbolics IP 02:51:38 what a terrible story 02:51:43 oh, really? is that jcma? 02:52:17 there is only one way to get symbolics ip and it is probably illegal 02:52:34 no, i heard a bit about it at the last dinner at mary chung 02:52:42 well, as I understand, the thing is stuck in some legal dispute somewhere 02:53:08 once that is resolved, I hope everyone will get to see all my horrible code (: 02:53:24 -!- jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:53:31 antifuchs, i don't think it will get resolved. i actually just had a discussion about this last night over dinner 02:53:40 Quadrescence: with whom? 02:53:46 nobody's optimistic (: 02:54:12 Xach, old franz fogies, and a couple weeks previous with old symbolics fogies 02:54:53 innnnteresting 02:54:59 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:46 the common trend ive heard is that people are holding onto assets that they won't give up, even for some sum of money, unless it's in the millions 02:55:47 *Xach* got a double-dose of fogies today 02:56:09 Well, if they're too poor to sue, you could just liberate it. 02:56:20 because symbolics/macsyma IP is clearly worth tens of millions today 02:57:55 antifuchs, you should make a clim joke 02:58:14 You could downcase all of the symbols. 02:59:05 But the real question is, is there actually anything worth using in it still? 02:59:58 Zhivago, i think macsyma still has stuff worth cleaning up/open sourcing. There's a lot of interesting, unpublished results in it 03:00:12 I'm not sure about CLIM and general Symbolics IP 03:00:24 Isn't Maxima built on Macsyma? 03:00:32 and it's open source, yes? 03:00:53 loke, it is based on DOE-MACSYMA, which is an old version of Symbolics Macsyma 03:01:28 it is not as good whatsoever 03:02:44 (but it's still not too bad) 03:03:06 presumably maxima has seen further development over twenty years?? 03:03:31 no, because it was only relatively recently open sourced 03:03:41 and the DOE presumably didn't develop it a whole lot 03:03:41 ok 03:04:05 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-51-102.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:06 Maxima was open-sourced in 1998. 03:04:21 oh, i thought it was later 03:04:38 Time flies. :-) That's what it says on maxima.sourceforge.net. 03:04:58 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:17 as far as i know though, improvements have only been incremental compared to the development of Symbolics Macsyma (when Symbolics Macsyma was being developed) 03:06:14 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 03:06:18 (rtoym would know a lot better than I would though) 03:07:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:37 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:35 I wonder what the fascination with cl-annot is with some people. (I've only seen it in Japanese people's code.) 03:10:48 I wouldn't know since I've never used Macsyma. Curiously, though, Macsyma still has some of the same bugs as maxima. 03:11:41 -!- crus0e [~crus0e@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: crus0e] 03:12:24 gmcastil [~user@216-160-191-3.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:06 -!- mjb9Mike [~mjb@cpe-173-175-254-25.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:15:49 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:11 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:18:56 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:47 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:27 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:53 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 03:37:14 rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has joined #lisp 03:40:50 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:41:36 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:47:51 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:05 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.218.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:02:49 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 04:05:44 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:16 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:27 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06:50 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:07:19 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:43 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:15:21 Denommus [~user@179-236-79-119.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 04:15:46 why is sort destructive? 04:15:58 Because destruction is cheaper. 04:16:05 There's a non-destructive sort as well. 04:16:24 what is its name? 04:20:02 Oops, looks like it's copy-then-sort. :) 04:20:02 Ryan-LV [~Ryan@ip68-108-111-80.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:16 Misremembered that. 04:21:36 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:23:04 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:23:23 damncanuck [~user@CPE0021299205a6-CMbc1401e089d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:35 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:27:53 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:16 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:16 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:28:16 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 04:28:33 gentlemen 04:30:40 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.15.41] has joined #lisp 04:30:44 reading through PCL, and so far so good, but I'm having a hard time understanding how char= or char-equal works 04:31:25 They're just predicates that test chars for different kinds of equality. 04:31:31 What's the most confusing bit? 04:32:44 the representation, I guess. (char= a b) says variable(s) not found, understandably. 04:33:05 and (char= "a" "b") I imagine is intended to evaluate strings, so also an error there. 04:33:17 char= compares characters 04:33:17 (char= #\a #\b) 04:33:22 character literals are denoted with #\name 04:33:48 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:34:00 :D 04:34:13 I read over that previous paragraph, silly me. 04:34:38 "f" is a one-element array, not a character. 04:35:03 -!- gmcastil [~user@216-160-191-3.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 04:35:42 Bike: is that a special case? 04:36:05 Of what? 04:36:47 setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 04:37:03 Bike: I don't know what you mean by " 'f' is a one-element array, not a character" 04:37:29 Just that (char= "a" "b") doesn't work because those are strings and not characters. 04:38:11 -!- rme [rme@6D10F4DD.4CC8819B.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:38:11 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:38:40 right, I figured that much. 04:39:10 -!- Ryan-LV [~Ryan@ip68-108-111-80.lv.lv.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:39:45 thanks for the help; after Zhivago said it, I realised I missed the paragraph previous to comparing characters that said characters were represented by #\ 04:39:54 it is, indeed, there. 04:43:23 I'm having alot of fun reading this book; as a long time emacs hacker and chronic underacheiver, CL is a nice way to really learn what is means to program something. 04:44:40 sounds overly philosophical 04:46:31 Quadrescence: I know a bit of C#, and Python, but I haven't actually learned as much as I have now with CL 04:46:37 loke: the closest thing I have seen to gathering .asd files is the example in the readme of xach's qlmapper library, which collects system descriptions in a descriptions.sexp file that you can then write a query function for. It took quite some time to generate that file on my computer, though. 04:46:53 syrinx, what have you learned in CL that you haven't learned in C# or Python? 04:47:26 Quadrescence: C# and Python are kind of, "here are the tools, do what you will with them.", CL is more of, "Here is the language, if the tool doesn't exist, make it." 04:47:39 which is much easier to do in CL than it is in Python, for instance. 04:47:47 Can you give an example? 04:48:07 well, macros, as one example. 04:48:12 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 04:48:40 I've only scratched the surface of macros, but to do something like that with python would be extremely extensive 04:48:48 more extensive than it needs to be, anyway. 04:49:22 -!- Denommus [~user@179-236-79-119.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:50:04 Most of the CL code I write is actually just a collection of functions and structures/classes. Only very rarely am I actually constructing cool macros, and 80% of them are just short ways to iterate (DO-PERMUTATIONS for example), or destructure (DESTRUCTURE-RATIONAL), or include some default calculated value (WITH-DB-LOCK). 04:50:15 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.58] has joined #lisp 04:50:23 But I of course speak for myself. Maybe you find that most of your code is writing macros and DSLs to solve problems. 04:50:34 -!- `arrdem [~user@resnet-46-203.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:44 And s/8/9/ 04:50:53 feeling a bit contrarian today, are we? 04:51:00 It's not, and I can't imagine it will be. I also can't say that I'm a seasoned programmer by any means. 04:51:04 Bike, maybe a little. :) 04:51:34 All I'm saying is, I've learned alot more in the past 3 weeks reading PCL than I have the past year mucking around with other languages. 04:52:10 was only meant as a compliment, really. Of course I know certain languages do certain things better than others. 04:53:01 I guess I'm what one would call, a "noob". 04:53:29 Well then my unfortunately negative assessment is that you must not have learned a lot from other languages. Yes, PCL does offer a lot of nice information about Common Lisp, and serves as a useful guide to learn it, but a lot of the stuff covered hardly seems anything specific to Lisp, in the sense that it would not be inconvenient to implement a lot of things discussed in the book in another language, perhaps with some architectural changes. 04:54:28 absolutely, that's why it's called Practical Common Lisp, and no Practical Design Patterns, or Practical OOP. 04:54:43 not* 04:55:38 I'd also imagine there are books like this that are tailored to Ruby, or Haskell, or the myriad of other languages that exist. 04:58:54 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:22 momo-reina [~user@anon-nl-48.nordvpn.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:07 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c06e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:06 seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has joined #lisp 05:13:10 hey can anyone help me figure this out: code is here http://pastie.org/7444487 05:14:30 when i put the display macro in common-functions.lisp and compile it says that the variable contents is unbound... but when i put it directly into main.lisp where the macro is called by the code, there is no problem 05:14:55 -!- antgreen [~green@209.118.250.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:15:02 i've set it up so that main.lisp has shadowing from common-functions.lisp 05:19:58 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:29 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:36:56 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.58] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 05:39:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:41:07 momo-reina: try adding CONTENTS and QUERY to the shadowing import list in the locker defpackage 05:41:26 -!- newblue [~newblue@116.26.57.226] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:42:11 momo-reina: if you define DISPLAY in your COMMON-FUNCTIONS package it is binding COMMON-FUNCTIONS::CONTENTS not LOCKER::CONTENTS 05:42:11 Vivitron: but contents and query are just the variable names in the macro itself 05:43:15 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:43:34 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:00 Vivitron: right, but aren't the variables only callable from within the macro itself? CONTENTS shouldn't enter the namespace itself right? or am i misunderstanding the scoping in this case? 05:45:54 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025029.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:46:14 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:14 momo-reina: reading the symbol introduces it to the package, you are binding the symbol read in the macro defining package then trying to access the (different, but same-named) symbol read in the macro calling context 05:48:25 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 05:51:07 ah ok, thanks for the explanation 05:52:09 does this mean then that, once i add CONTENTS to the shadowing import list, i will not be able to define CONTENTS in the main package itself without creating a collision? 05:52:38 or will the scope of CONTENTS remain specific to the macro? 05:52:39 momo-reina: the way you have defined the macro is not in the prevailing style, more often people explicitly name the symbol being bound in the macro call, which gets around this issue as well as not introducing possibly confusing unseen bindings 05:53:33 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 05:54:21 Vivitron: would you mind giving me an example of this? i'm quite new to using macros and am not sure on what the style guide is 05:55:12 I agree with Vivitron, also you might want to use gensym to create temporary symbols for other variables which should not be explicitely named 05:55:35 look at the design of the with-accessors macro for instance, which leaves the caller to specify the names 05:55:49 gensym is used to avoid variable capture right? 05:56:09 i would still have to manually add the variable to the shadowing import list to make it usable in the main package? 05:56:10 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:56 momo-reina: nothing quite as simple as I'd like but here's an example https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/binding.lisp#L33 05:57:24 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 05:58:10 momo-reina: if you imported COMMON-FUNCTIONS::CONTENTS then (DEFUN CONTENTS ...) in LOCKER would actually be doing (DEFUN COMMON-FUNCTIONS::CONTENTS ...) 05:58:16 ok no, i'm confused, i think i understand 05:58:16 let the user name the variables and then have it gensym-ed in the macro body, yes? 05:58:30 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 05:59:02 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:59:16 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:00:12 -!- seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:01:46 momo-reina: you don't use gensym for this 06:04:29 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:04:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:04:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:05:02 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:05:59 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:06:48 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:06:55 momo-reina: you could do http://pastie.org/7444721 but note that you haven't really bought anything over LET* doing it that way 06:07:07 Vivitron: i'm not quite following the example unfortunately but will keep plugging away. so the theory being, letting the user explicitly name the variables nothing has to be exported to the symbol list in the main package and no collission can occur right? 06:07:52 momo-reina: collision isn't quite the right idea. They are just different variables with the same name 06:10:10 ok i can follow the logic with your example so i'll use that right now then study the other examples so i can improve on it later. 06:10:13 thanks so much for the help! 06:11:01 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-ohwklznkphghiuos] has joined #lisp 06:11:12 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11:57 ck__ [~ck@dslb-178-004-010-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:14 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 06:13:19 momo-reina: no problem 06:18:59 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:20:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:20:43 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:26:23 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:26:54 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-135-10-198.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:28:14 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:28:52 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.15.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:55 I've got a function that returns two lists as two values. Is there an ITER clause that allows to adjoin these? 06:28:59 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@120.154.15.41] has joined #lisp 06:29:45 Ie. something like (ADJOINING (fn ...) INTO (VALUES list1 list2)) or something like that? 06:30:37 tcr [~tcr@46-126-110-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:33:11 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:38:15 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:38:32 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 06:38:38 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:39:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:45:45 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@120.154.15.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:48:12 -!- ck__ [~ck@dslb-178-004-010-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:45 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.49] has joined #lisp 06:53:09 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest2427 06:57:09 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 06:59:28 gendl_ [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:24 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.146.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:03:12 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:11 veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:39 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.20] has joined #lisp 07:05:51 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:23 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:06:41 teggi [~teggi@113.172.53.76] has joined #lisp 07:07:08 ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has joined #lisp 07:08:05 cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-250-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:08:40 Joreji [~thomas@79-210.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:10:53 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:07 valeryz [~user@144-97-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:06 hi 07:15:07 ASau` [~user@p4FF970D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:29 fenton [~user@m121-202-251-10.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:03 -!- fenton [~user@m121-202-251-10.smartone.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:19 -!- specbot [~specbot@50.7.166.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:19 -!- minion [~minion@50.7.166.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:22 -!- ASau [~user@p5797FF8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:19:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-102-21.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:18 fenton1 [~fenton@m121-202-251-10.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:34 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.165.120] has joined #lisp 07:20:19 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:20:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:19 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:21:02 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:22:52 -!- veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:35 -!- gendl_ [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 07:26:21 cmm- [~cmm@109.64.102.216] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.165.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:28:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-102-21.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:30:36 snearch [~snearch@brln-4db934c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:59 zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has joined #lisp 07:31:07 ;Good morning! 07:31:38 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-133-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:45 specbot [~specbot@50.7.166.114] has joined #lisp 07:33:12 minion [~minion@50.7.166.114] has joined #lisp 07:33:26 -!- buhman [~buhman@honorificabilitudinitibus.buhman.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:34:30 Forgetaboutit [~sammy@s15731961.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 07:34:50 bitonic [~user@151.225.50.3] has joined #lisp 07:37:25 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:37:56 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:07 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-128-221.w92-156.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:40:22 -!- Guest2427 [~lukas@194.228.13.49] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:44:14 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 07:45:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@46-126-110-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:46:52 -!- snearch [~snearch@brln-4db934c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:48:02 buhman [~buhman@h147.163.23.98.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:49:35 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.174.76.228] has joined #lisp 07:50:21 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:50:40 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 07:51:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-252-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:51:41 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 -!- valeryz [~user@144-97-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:52:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:52:23 good morning! 07:53:42 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 07:53:57 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 07:54:16 *stassats* is now being bombarded with "Welcome to xx-devel@common-lisp.net" 07:55:26 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 07:55:44 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 07:55:49 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:06 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:56:11 yeah. 07:56:28 everyone is supposed to adjust their mail filters now. 07:56:33 well, unless sanity returns. 07:56:45 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:46 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:00:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-210.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:01:11 mm... 08:01:29 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:51 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:05:03 -!- cmm- [~cmm@109.64.102.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:06:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-109-112.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:14 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:09:19 Joreji [~thomas@79-210.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:43 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-0d1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:10:05 -!- gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 08:12:44 -!- arrsim` [~user@ppp118-209-10-248.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:00 bioevolgenec [c3fb7302@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.251.115.2] has joined #lisp 08:14:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:19 baggers [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has joined #lisp 08:16:35 elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:16:56 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.43.142] has left #lisp 08:17:08 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:23:08 i'm trying to write a lisp tutorial that gets to the nub of the 'lisp enlightenment', as a way to teach myself lisp. Here is my start: http://goo.gl/nFqlf 08:23:39 don't use link shorteners here 08:23:42 any comments/advice/suggestions quite welcome! 08:23:49 ok 08:23:59 https://github.com/ftravers/PublicDocumentation/blob/master/lisp.org 08:24:21 (setq myvar Hello World) is a bad way to create variables 08:24:26 <|3b|> SETQ doesn't create variables 08:24:44 off to a bad start... 08:24:51 and the mark up botches double-quotes 08:25:01 <|3b|> also, that seems to be elisp not cl 08:25:07 fenton1: no, a good one. a bad start would be if you have nothing to learn. 08:25:38 could u good folk help me zero in on the lisp enlightenment...is it the code is data and data is code...aspect? 08:25:45 and indeed, if you open an emacs buffer (random buffer), and hit C-x C-e after a form, you are evaling elisp. 08:26:15 slime uses c-x c-e too, but MESSAGE is an emacs thing 08:26:19 In the nature of lisp, he goes down a track around xml... 08:26:47 trying to hit home the data = code idea... 08:26:49 why should there be an "enlightenment"? 08:26:58 *|3b|* isn't sure if the document intended CL or not, but #lisp is about CL 08:27:41 it's just my idea of having a starting place into lisp... 08:27:45 just try using lisp, not searching for some profound philosophical insights 08:28:23 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:28:27 ok, i wonder if comparing how to do a task in lisp versus another language would be useful... 08:28:36 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 08:28:48 i mean there is supposed to be a benefit to using lisp, and i want to grasp that as quickly as possible. 08:28:52 running into some problems with exporting symbols, not sure what's going on. i have a symbol (macro) in a general file that i'm exporting, then shadowing in another file. compile throws up an error saying illegal function call. any help would be appreciated :) http://pastie.org/7448643 08:29:28 fenton1: it will take you time to learn lisp before you can recognize what the benefits are 08:29:29 Yuuhi` [benni@pD9F99079.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:55 fenton1: and furthermore, the benefits may not so much be in writing programs in lisp, but in understanding how programming languages work in general. 08:29:56 baggers_ [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has joined #lisp 08:30:18 fenton1: so i think you should abandon the "as quickly as possible" idea and just begin to learn lisp by programming in it. 08:30:22 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 08:30:35 ok 08:30:38 <|3b|> momo-reina: does that macro call (display ...) expand the way you expect it to? 08:30:39 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 08:30:53 -!- baggers [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:31:05 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31:10 <|3b|> momo-reina: not that (string-equal ...) is a valid function name either 08:31:22 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5DC61C1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:31:23 that looks like a cond leg 08:31:41 *|3b|* tries to avoid making assumptions about broken code 08:32:49 it's a puzzle, we're given no code, and are supposed to guess why it doesn't work 08:32:58 hehe 08:33:04 (display ..) is expanding the way i expect it to 08:33:11 it would be easy if that was the case! 08:33:14 <|3b|> can you paste the expansion somewhere? 08:33:39 ck_ [~ck@dslb-178-004-010-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:07 can you try compiling the whole code anew? 08:34:18 <|3b|> either you expanded it differently from that example, or your expectations are wrong :) 08:34:28 i wonder if there would be a good little project that could demo lisp power...like in practical common lisp, he starts with a database to store songs... Is the point being that the data is stored (persisted) exactly as it would be written in the program... 08:35:17 in java, the code versus data thing doesn't make any sense, since you wouldn't persist data in the same way you'd initialize some data in java 08:35:25 fenton1: i think you are thinking to much and coding to little. 08:35:37 fenton1: you wouldn't in CL in a real database either 08:35:58 http://pastie.org/7449306 08:36:08 i'm just trying to get some advice, and not blindly go off in an unproductive direction... 08:36:21 zorkmoid: but that is for sure true too. 08:36:28 fenton1: my advice: learn lisp before you try to demonstrate its power 08:36:35 momo-reina: is> ((string-equal "show" arg1) ...) a part of cond, or an actual function call_ 08:36:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:36:51 fenton1: advice on what? 08:37:06 fenton1: the magical qualities of lisp? only way is to code. 08:37:13 fenton1: read PCL, pick a project, do it 08:37:41 zorkmoid: cond 08:37:51 lol...ok...thanks for the advice! I'll be back after i do some coding!!! lol 08:38:03 momo-reina: have you tried compiling in a fresh instance? 08:38:25 fenton1: learn how to use slime 08:38:46 minion: please tell fenton1 about slime.mov 08:38:46 fenton1: please look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 08:39:00 stassats: that's the problem, i previously had the display macro defined in the local file but then moved it into a more general file 08:39:19 then i just exported the symbol from the general file and shadowed it in the local file 08:39:33 thanks all! 08:39:44 momo-reina: so, did you recompile it after that? 08:40:16 by the way, shadowing and importing doesn't work on files, but on packages 08:40:30 stassats: sorry, packages :) 08:40:41 :sif is a PITA 08:41:07 yep not working... seems to be a problem in the way i wrote the macro, REPL will error out as well 08:41:07 *stassats* waits until momo-reina restarts his lisp and loads his thing 08:42:19 hey folks, anyone know whats up with the cffi mail list? http://www.common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/cffi-devel 08:42:20 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 08:42:32 this is what i'm getting : http://pastie.org/7449714 08:42:33 baggers_: broken for now. 08:42:40 baggers_: the fallen victim of migration 08:42:53 momo-reina: CL-USER> 08:43:00 does that tell you something? 08:43:08 baggers_: it will return eventually, although it is not clear when. 08:43:18 i've compiled it into CL-USER 08:43:21 fresh instance 08:43:35 -!- fenton1 [~fenton@m121-202-251-10.smartone.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:43:59 are you sure? 08:44:13 cheers! 08:44:15 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:44:17 if you didn't change the code, it should be in the LOCKER package 08:45:30 yep, actually with the change in the code it won't even load the package anymore because of the error, i just started a lisp instance and hit C-c C-c with slime into CL-USER 08:45:47 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:46:12 so, either you sort out your package mess yourself, or you need to actually show us the whole code 08:46:37 sorry, messed up 08:46:57 it is running in the locker package through the REPL 08:47:22 i'll put up the relevant pieces of code 08:48:47 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 08:49:16 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:52 francogrex_ [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 08:49:52 momo-reina, ,in 08:49:54 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:49:59 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:33 -!- francogrex_ is now known as francogrex 08:51:08 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:51:22 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 08:51:41 and indeed, my old gnus rules don't work on the new mailing lists 08:51:43 Hi, I have this code I am trying to profile using the functuions profile and watch (at the end): http://paste.lisp.org/display/136667 08:52:04 and i just love configuring gnus 08:52:15 http://pastie.org/7450273 08:52:18 but it's not working why? I have a message saying: These functions were not called: list of all the function! I used 08:52:41 this code for profiling before and it always was ok, until now, any ideas? 08:52:46 momo-reina: do those files have (in-package ..)? 08:53:14 yep 08:53:32 francogrex, don't you need to recompile the packages for profiling? 08:53:38 in fact all the other functions work, it's just the display macro 08:53:40 weirdo: no 08:53:41 systems* 08:53:44 ok 08:54:22 sorry, weirdo all ignore my message I missed the quote; it should be (watch '(READ_SASDB "c:/random_sample.sas7bdat")) 08:54:24 hi 08:54:26 <|3b|> you might want to quote the code you are trying to eval rather than evaluating it before passing the result to the profiling fuinction 08:54:27 now it's ok 08:54:33 *|3b|* is too slow :( 08:54:39 |3b|: yes 08:54:39 momo-reina: do you load common-functions.lisp before locker.lisp? 08:54:43 thabnks 08:55:04 you mean in the package.lisp file? yep 08:55:11 i'm loading the whole system through quicklisp 08:55:16 package.lisp doesn't load anything 08:55:28 is there already a package (that I'm not finding) to get linux system stats in CL? I'm currently interested into cpu, ram, io and network stats, and intend to start with what you'd find in the sysstats package (commands iostat, mpstat, vmstat) (io bandwidth and iowait are the first targets)? 08:55:45 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [] 08:55:53 in your .asd file, does locker depend on common-functions? or do you use :serial t and common-functions is before locker? 08:56:19 dim: sb-ext:run-program 08:56:40 well all the information is exposed in /proc stats files 08:57:06 I'd suppose that reading in /proc is more efficient that parsing command line randomly formated results 08:57:12 stassats: serial t, but i just noticed that common-funtions is after locker... 08:57:15 will fix that now 08:58:16 -!- gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 08:58:55 gko [~gko@42-78-206-30.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:06 stassats: well that fixed it... thanks so much for the troubleshooting 08:59:55 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:02:18 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 09:03:23 you could find in the warnings that the symbol is defined as a macro, while previously being assumed as a function 09:03:32 or maybe the new asdf shadows that too? 09:04:35 or, you're using ql:quickload? that's a bad idea for your own stuff, it eats all the output 09:07:16 using ql:quickload 09:07:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:07:54 which would be the best way to load the various packages in production code? 09:08:11 asdf:load-system 09:08:37 but isn't ql just a wrapper around ASDF2? 09:09:07 it is 09:09:49 mc40 [~mc@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:08 -!- banjiewen [~banjiewen@184.173.74.133-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:11:48 but it eats up the warnings? ahhh... it was too good to be true... 09:12:25 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-021-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:42 just use quickload the first time to install dependencies 09:13:54 and then asdf:load-system, or ,l in slime with slime-asdf 09:14:21 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:14:32 there should also be :verbose switch for quickload, but then it becomes too much to type 09:14:51 *stassats* uses a function named :ASD to load stuff 09:16:49 ok so when deploying the code it should just use asdf:load-system to load the various packages that form the program 09:16:57 quickload only for external dependencies 09:17:11 momo-reina, dump an image 09:18:50 weirdo: you mean for distributing the program? that doesn't work cross-platform.. at least it doesn't when i cycle between the linux VM that i use to write code and OS X 09:19:14 momo-reina, you said 'deploy' 09:19:17 not 'redist' 09:19:30 carry on then 09:19:36 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 yeah, i think you can tell i screw up the terms 09:21:40 davazp [~user@92.251.183.106.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 09:22:06 <|3b|> mainly matters for development, when you want to see as much info as possible about the code you are working on 09:22:45 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:22:47 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:23:06 and if you're using newer asdf, don't forget to do (setf asdf::*uninteresting-conditions* nil) 09:24:11 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 09:25:38 thanks, will do 09:26:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-210.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:26:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:26:30 momo-reina: one beginner mistake is to add asdf:load-system or quickload into the code where it typically doesn't belong; if the your-system.asd file specifies which systems your system depends on within its defsystem, then asdf or ql should take care of loading those dependencies for you when you load your-system 09:27:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:27:35 Vivitron: I was doing that but following Xach's post on loading and creating systems with QL I sorted it out. 09:28:13 though i wasn't aware of the effects of serial t in the .asd file and the order of the packages, that's what happens when you just copy and paste i guess 09:28:15 banjiewen [~banjiewen@184.173.74.133-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:45 ah great, I like the setup Xach presents in his post 09:29:13 yeah that really helped out a lot, also in understanding systems, etc. 09:29:23 i didn't even know what they were before i read that post 09:30:17 i now have a build.lisp file that loads the whole system through quicklisp, then dumps an image, using it for distribution. 09:30:34 everything else is loaded specified in package.lisp and the .asd file 09:31:24 coming back to development, i read that most lisp hackers don't really use tests and rely on in-built tools like trace and step, do you guys recommend this? 09:31:45 i'm going through PAIP and norvig seems to be saying the same thing 09:31:50 have anybody already figured how to filter those new cl.net maillists? 09:32:00 although i am using lisp-unit for some tests 09:32:30 *stassats* doesn't see anything special in the message to say that it's a mailing list message 09:33:52 well, i can just filter everything from common-lisp.net 09:33:55 stassats: i'm not going to bother. i expect mailman to return into operation soon. 09:34:21 H4ns: i'm already annoyed by wrong notifications 09:34:29 stassats: so am i. 09:35:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:36 there is no need for these emails to go out in the first place. but "the migration is going well", so i am possibly wrong in not seeing the need. 09:36:14 there are already some communications going on, not just "welcome" 09:36:38 awesome 09:36:51 well, mostly "is it finally working?" 09:37:19 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:51 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-109-112.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:37:56 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.50.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38:23 -!- baggers_ [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has left #lisp 09:38:28 ^\\(To\\|CC\\|Cc\\):.+@common-lisp.net should do the job 09:38:28 baggers_ [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has joined #lisp 09:39:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:39:55 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:40:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:40:38 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:40:39 -!- mc40 [~mc@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: mc40] 09:40:42 cmm [~cmm@109.65.117.79] has joined #lisp 09:42:34 antgreen [~green@209.118.250.254] has joined #lisp 09:42:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:42:52 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 and i can finally login with my account, wonderful 09:43:25 stassats: thank fare 09:43:32 en_US.UTF-8 locale is not installed 09:43:52 C en_CA.utf8 POSIX 09:44:32 interestingly, $LC_MESSAGES is en_US.UTF-8 09:44:44 *stassats* waits for drewc 09:46:39 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 09:47:16 git is working, cvs is not 09:47:40 oh, git as in http git 09:48:15 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:32 git:// isn't working either 09:51:40 *attila_lendvai* has some git:// admin experience, and also with locale's 09:51:57 incidentally, i found some old paste.lisp.org pastes 09:53:10 -!- momo-reina [~user@anon-nl-48.nordvpn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:02 ok, paste.lisp.org just got 35K of old pastes back 09:56:31 you can enjoy things like http://paste.lisp.org/display/3 09:56:41 -!- baggers_ [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:56:52 stassats: awesome, thanks. 09:57:00 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.49] has joined #lisp 09:57:05 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: DRAKMA-1.3.2, CFFI 0.11.1, Hunchentoot 1.2.17, SBCL 1.1.6, CHUNGA-1.1.5, CFFI 0.11.0, Babel 0.4.0, trivial-garbage 0.20 09:57:24 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest84138 09:57:44 i've got more newer pastes from helpful people, bu they are crawled, and the exported xml isn't the same as the one lisppaste actually uses 09:57:51 and i'm too lazy to transform them 09:58:19 but those were lying around in a tar.bz2 since 2007 in public_html, and i just recently noticed them 09:59:49 some of them have interesting titles: http://paste.lisp.org/display/56 XACH KILLED THE BABY DOLPHINS 10:03:53 H4ns: that reminds me, i need to make a pull request for cl-ppcre 10:05:13 stassats: uh, a cl-ppcre release! i've not made one yet, so it is about time! 10:05:45 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:11:00 ok, sent 10:11:05 dnolen [~user@212.23.236.122] has joined #lisp 10:12:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:14:00 rking1 [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 10:14:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:14:19 -!- rking [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-rc1] 10:14:34 -!- rking1 is now known as rking 10:14:41 there's just on reservation, the old code looked whether the result is a sequence, my version only does it once, but i'm not a 100% sure that it can't become a sequence in the middle of parsing 10:15:02 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-215.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:15:55 and i've been using for two months without any problems 10:16:07 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:16:24 i think i'll ask edi if he can review it. 10:16:39 i can walk you through it, if you want 10:17:00 need to walk myself first, it has been two months 10:17:21 i'm not prepared to learn how cl-ppcre works right now, and in the end, edi will want to review it anyway. cl-ppcre is what he cares about most. 10:17:51 that's cool, even better 10:19:55 My impression has been that that CL-PPCRE is one of the better regex implementations overall (regardless of language). Is this true, or is it my Lisp-bias shining? 10:20:51 it still can be improved! 10:22:05 and i would think that perl has good regexes as well 10:22:58 loke: one could argue that spencer's implementations (see TCL) mean all the other implementations are equally bad. 10:23:42 soencer's implementations? 10:23:45 what is that? 10:24:03 stassats`: the perl one is from what i know really terible.. 10:24:17 http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 10:24:36 zorkmoid: Then again, it depends on your expectations. 10:24:38 loke: google for "spencer regexp implementation" 10:25:15 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:47 Does cl-ppcre use thomson nfa? 10:25:53 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 10:27:20 and i wouldn't say that cl-ppcre's code is particularly easy to understand 10:27:26 loke: it's rewrite rules on top of the recursive backtracking approach nearly everyone uses, plus some special cases for literal substrings, iirc. 10:27:47 stassats`: edi is going to look at it on the weekend. 10:27:52 what with the local special variables and all 10:29:48 It's impossible to do PCRE with a linear-time set-of-state NFA simulation (otherwise we'd have quite the collapse in the time and space complexity hierarchy). What Spencer's code does is a hybrid of DFA + backtracking for fancy captures, and compiled NFA when possible. 10:30:50 i should finally merge sb-coverage change to sbcl, and then use that for cl-ppcre 10:30:55 changes 10:31:23 Well, the test case in the article does take a crazy amount of time in Perl, but is instantaneous on cl-ppcre. So I support it's better than all the usual languages. :-) 10:31:50 so that modifications can be more easily verified 10:32:00 loke: it's pattern matching in the front end. You can tweak the input a tiny bit and you'll have the same issue. 10:32:16 OK, I see 10:32:19 also, the back end 10:32:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:33:26 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:37 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-188-215.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:33:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:08 loke, the regexp engine in emacs is quite nice too. 10:34:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:35:12 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:36:11 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-021-204.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:37:24 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:37:33 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-118-39.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:37:43 Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192082.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:44 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 10:39:04 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:40:44 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 10:46:56 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:47:42 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192082.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:50:38 nalaginrut_ [~nalaginru@59.40.30.172] has joined #lisp 10:54:18 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@59.40.37.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:55:26 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:55:29 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.117.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:57:13 -!- dnolen [~user@212.23.236.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:58:54 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:59:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:00:51 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-142.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:22 -!- gko [~gko@42-78-206-30.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:04:03 gko [~gko@42-78-206-30.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:30 Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:08 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:28 -!- gko [~gko@42-78-206-30.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:06 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 11:24:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:26:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:27:10 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 emilknievel [~emilkniev@h-39-99.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 11:30:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:31:16 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.199] has joined #lisp 11:37:33 -!- elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:38:18 stassats`: weird. 11:38:55 Xach: did you not kill dolphins? 11:39:31 i'd rather not discuss it! 11:39:58 it is no coincidence that dolphins are curved like parentheses 11:41:00 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.183.106.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:42:46 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002ebc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:24 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:44:02 -!- rhinux [~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:46:51 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:46:54 you can also find things like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/155 11:47:55 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:50:32 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:51:00 "the golden age of lisp-pasting" 11:51:15 i like how "109 people use this" 11:52:28 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 11:52:33 *stassats`* tries to find his first paste 11:52:38 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 11:52:41 davazp [~user@92.251.152.186.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 11:54:27 baggers [c2b06990@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.176.105.144] has joined #lisp 11:55:16 elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:55:39 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55:50 no, didn't make any before 15 Jan 2007 11:57:58 -!- bioevolgenec [c3fb7302@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.251.115.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:36 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:02:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:03:02 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 12:05:44 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Client Quit] 12:07:13 icrazyhack [~horieyui@180.154.125.13] has joined #lisp 12:08:22 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.174.76.228] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:08:59 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:54 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:33 -!- elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:18:29 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 12:18:55 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.115.141] has joined #lisp 12:19:04 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-147.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:20:01 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 12:20:26 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.120.153.4] has joined #lisp 12:21:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:24:47 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:55 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:31 valeryz [~user@144-97-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:39 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:32 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1221-215.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:28 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:36:48 -!- antgreen [~green@209.118.250.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:26 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:38:47 leoc [~leoc.git@p4FF7AC7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:51 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:42:31 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.115.141] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 12:43:42 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:45:22 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-133-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:47:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:48:44 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:12 antgreen [~green@209.118.250.254] has joined #lisp 12:51:23 -!- antgreen [~green@209.118.250.254] has quit [Client Quit] 12:51:50 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 12:52:40 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 12:53:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:55:33 *Xach* enjoys an out-of-sync happy mailman day 12:55:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:56:00 *stassats`* wishes it fired off everything at once 12:56:28 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:58:10 stassats`: are you going to eclm or els? 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quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 14:57:39 Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192082.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:09 gendl_ [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-206.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:51 shouldn't a change in argument order cause a difference in function response ? 14:59:17 it depends. See #'+ 14:59:23 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 14:59:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:00:58 or RANDOM 15:01:26 -!- elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:05:51 Xach: i like that you chose something that isn't just a commutative mathematical function...you highlighted the difference between a Lisp function and a math function 15:06:26 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.240.239] has joined #lisp 15:07:42 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.115.81] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 15:08:03 -!- gendl_ [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-206.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:08:05 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192082.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:09:46 elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:10:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:13:09 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:13:21 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:13:32 Xach: is it (ql:quickload :qt) or (ql:quickload :commonqt)? 15:13:49 *stassats`* is doing some updates to the documentation 15:14:31 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 15:15:10 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.120.153.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:17:54 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-178-004-010-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:13 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:50 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 15:19:13 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:20:36 stassats`: If the system file is named qt.asd, it is :qt 15:20:53 if it is named commonqt.asd, it is :commonqt 15:21:20 right 15:21:48 http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ now looks a bit more modern 15:22:05 (without telling how to symlink things for asdf) 15:23:46 you don't need to list the Lisp dependencies any more, just mention they're in quicklisp 15:23:56 yes, i just deleted them 15:24:43 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:25:01 also updated implementations 15:25:13 (let ((a nil) b) (setf (values a b) (function 'foo))) --> can't set symbol-value of nil 15:25:21 is there another way to do that? 15:25:59 (function 'foo)? 15:26:11 well I can a function of mine that returns multiple values 15:26:16 s/can/call/ 15:26:21 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-lybkcbmwxukdtjts] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 is that emacs lisp? 15:26:32 oh. not function then 15:26:41 Kristo_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 15:26:42 (let ((a nil) b) (setf (values a b) (my-function 'foo))) 15:26:51 it that better that way? 15:27:02 better than what? 15:27:06 *dim* did miss that function means something else, sorry 15:27:08 i don't understand what you want to do 15:27:11 ok 15:27:12 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:30 I have a binding which value is nil and I want to use the setf values form on it 15:27:37 there's of course multiple-value-bind 15:27:41 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:49 dim: that works fine. the error is elsewhere. 15:27:54 dim: well, go ahead and use what you pasted 15:27:55 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.251.248.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:28:02 multiple-value-setq, too (should be equivalent to (setf values)) 15:28:04 *Xach* guesses somewhere in my-function 15:28:22 fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.248.197.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:37 dim: did you misspell SETF as SET? 15:29:02 jdz: wow, I did actually in a place later 15:29:08 thanks a lot 15:29:09 -!- Kristo_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:10 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:14 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 15:29:24 heh 15:29:35 jdz: excellent psychic debugging! 15:29:46 amazing I'd say :) 15:30:42 well, someone's gotta maintain the reputation of the channel 15:30:57 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 (setf (values ) ) isn't standard common lisp, correct? 15:31:07 bhyde: it is. 15:31:21 I use it in preference to multiple-value-setq 15:31:24 can't be anymore standard than that! 15:31:40 weird that I won't know that, i have it filed under "nope"  15:31:59 won't? -> don't 15:32:31 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:32:47 bhyde: hair color and beard length correlates to likelihood of knowing about it 15:33:05 (setf (if x y z) 5) isn't standard common lisp. But I use it. :) 15:33:29 foom, you like exponential blowup? ;] 15:33:40 weirdo: "exponential blowup"? 15:33:46 foom, if nested 15:34:04 foom: You have a DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER for IF? 15:34:10 nyef: yes. 15:34:13 Neat. 15:34:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:34:39 the banana clhs chapter isn't impressed 15:34:57 what does (for-each '(1 2 3 4 5) (lambda (x) (+ 1 x))) return for you ? 15:35:09 wbooze: it returns "wrong language" 15:35:14 nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136669 15:35:15 stassats`: yesterday i got called names for knowing 11.1.2.1.2 by heart 15:35:16 How can I maintain static variables in a function while running it inside a loop? 15:35:21 wbooze: Something about an undefined function "FOR-EACH". 15:35:31 it is defined here 15:35:34 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 15:35:35 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 15:35:39 ah yes. 15:36:00 but neither way, it does not work, not with argument order change etc.... 15:36:03 foom: Ah. Complete with OUT-PACKAGE-LOCKS, I see. 15:36:07 Xach: yes, sort of analogous to my reaction to discovering lsof  "Why didn't anybody tell me!" 15:36:11 neither in the definition nor in the call.... 15:36:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 pranavrc: can you paste the code? 15:36:35 nyef: yes, ready-to-use. :) 15:36:50 to http://paste.lisp.org/new? 15:36:57 wbooze: What is the definition of for-each? 15:38:36 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:41 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:40:00 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:40:18 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 stassats`, sec 15:41:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/136670 15:42:04 you mixed the the argument order in the second definition 15:42:31 and two ifs? 15:42:39 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.115.81] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:29 I like how you added "sbcl" to the title, just in case it's a compiler bug 15:43:35 like cond yes.... 15:43:52 then part replaced with another if..... 15:44:13 err else part i meant 15:44:17 stassats`, http://paste.lisp.org/+2XGF 15:44:27 -!- nalaginrut_ is now known as nalaginrut 15:44:38 pranavrc: well, that's bad, you shouldn't use defun inside another defun 15:44:49 if then else -> if then (if then else) 15:45:26 why do you have so many specials? 15:45:35 Use a closure. 15:45:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:46:06 wbooze: i don't understand what you're trying to do 15:46:06 nested defuns seem to be the noob mode du jour 15:46:38 And you're missing some modulo or logand in there. CL has bignums. 15:47:14 And let really doesn't do what you think it does. Time to read a book, I'd say. 15:48:42 Alright, I'll get to that, got a bit too eager there I guess 15:49:01 minion: please tell pranavrc about PCL 15:49:01 pranavrc: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:49:29 Yeah, I ordered that one a couple of days back. Should be getting it tomorrow :) 15:50:02 you can read it online in the meantime 15:50:49 the first 5 chapters should get you straight with what you pasted 15:50:56 pranavrc  what were you trying to do in http://paste.lisp.org/+2XGF ? 15:51:02 rather, 6 15:51:02 Yeah, gonna do that. Thanks! 15:51:27 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:16 bhyde, was trying to translate this -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift#Example_implementation without the chops 15:54:43 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:53 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:30 jasom: did you start a fork of ltk? 15:57:39 jasom: i eagerly await your version :) 15:58:00 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:50 pranavrc: it would like http://paste.lisp.org/display/136671#1 16:00:32 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:57 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:01:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:03:53 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:08 joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:39 stassats`, swell, thanks! 16:04:58 maybe I shouldn't try writing code until I get through the book 16:05:24 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:27 pranavrc: stassats` beat me to it  a) the * around variables are a used in CL as a coding convention to denote that they are "special" variables (sort globals) which isn't what you wanted. b) defun is almost always a top level form, c) except because you c example has static variables stassats` used a top level let to get the same effect (these tend to be rare) and so the defun is inside it's lexical scope. d) integers have infinite 16:06:28 numbers of bits in lisp so that adds to the complexity of translating this right; hence the LOGAN in the converted version. 16:06:30 *Xach* always enjoys a good applicaiton of shiftf 16:06:33 -!- Denommus [~user@201.75.85.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06:40 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:49 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:06:55 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has left #lisp 16:07:24 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:07:54 the SETF could have been folded into the SHIFTF :) 16:08:11 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:08:20 bhyde: but then you would need to return w 16:08:38 stassats`, bhyde so how about lambdas inside defuns? 16:08:43 *bhyde* recalls Xach and I chatting about how all this damn craft knowledge is so hard to come by 16:09:05 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:09:16 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 16:09:19 lambda inside defuns are perfectly cromulent 16:09:24 there are lots of ways to define functions, they all have slightly different functional purposes 16:09:30 But so valuable when you have it! Why, with luck, you TOO might be called a nerd for knowing 11.1.2.1.2 :~( 16:09:32 sic 16:09:57 i know 11.1.2.1.2.1! 16:10:08 righto 16:10:11 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:11:20 11.1.2.1.2 is the single most important chapter when it comes to answering questions on #lisp 16:11:28 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.87] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 I think that's why I know it so well. 16:16:24 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 16:17:00 *redline6561* had forgotten about shiftf 16:17:15 i hope you still remember rotatef! 16:17:20 i do! :) 16:17:22 phew 16:18:38 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:18:46 Xach: still enjoying the new gig? how's the ql release coming? 16:21:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21:28 *patrickwonders* never noticed shiftf before and has done rotatef with a dummy variable  never again ... 16:22:00 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:00 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:22:00 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 16:23:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:24 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.152.186.threembb.ie] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:24:43 arrdem [~user@resnet-46-203.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.115.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:26:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:27:20 Anyone have an example of when it's necessary to use a setf-expander instead of (defun (setf ...))? 16:27:27 redline6561: As pjb's sig says, "A bad day in parens is better than a good day in curly braces" 16:27:56 (betterp (bad-day) {good_day();}) => T 16:28:20 jasom: when you can't do with functions what you want to do 16:28:41 stassats`: so not evaluating the args? 16:28:53 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.248.197.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002ebc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:33:32 *Fare* defines a trivial IPC mechanism based on read and write and uses it to drive slave threads 16:34:32 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p4FF7AC7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:44 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:35:58 what a waste of time, Fare, just use lparallel 16:36:30 it brings a queue implementation and you can ask for bounded queue so that the reader won't fill-in the queue when the writer can't keep up 16:36:41 I use that in my new version of pgloader, it works great 16:36:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:37:41 my main test case has been migrating MySQL data to PostgreSQL, in a streaming fashion, thanks to COPY protocol support in postmodern and lparallel 16:37:49 *stassats`* uses it for his unnamed-lisp-ide 16:37:57 and here test case means code has been used for "production" cases 16:38:19 ok 16:38:23 can someone help me clarify this, in this post https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/NIK-uXDJPkw/4uJ165O2PZsJ on the vector implementation of (make-record-structure) why is he generetating test cases as `((,slot) ,(incf index)) instead of `(,slot ,(incf index))? if i had to write the ecase i would have something like (let ((x :test)) (ecase x (:test 1) (:not-test 2))) 16:39:21 nicdev: it's probably under gpl, can't read that 16:39:52 Thra11 [~thrall@87.113.169.107] has joined #lisp 16:41:08 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-116.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:41:47 /mode #lisp ++gpl-reading-skill stassats` 16:42:41 I'm working a project and I keep getting 'unknown type specifier' errors even though the type is a class defined earlier in the project. It's set to load serially, so I'm pretty sure the defclass is evaluated before getting to the error. Any ideas? 16:42:55 nicdev: () is used around test-cases so that NIL, T, or otherwise are not treated specially 16:42:56 are classes not types? 16:43:05 fisxoj: classes are types 16:43:27 I thought so, and it works if I go in and evalute the defclass myself and reload it 16:43:33 fisxoj: if it's baffling, then it's usually a package issue 16:44:24 or rather, type-specifiers 16:44:26 usually :) 16:44:31 hi attila_lendvai :) 16:44:48 hello fe[nl]ix, lispers 16:45:09 -!- Yuuhi [benni@pD9F99079.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:46:25 hmm. it seems like none of my types are recognized... what could that mean.. 16:46:54 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:49 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-142.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 16:48:49 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:49:25 fisxoj: if using a fresh image doesn't help, please post an example case via a pastebin 16:50:18 are you qouting the type when you shouldn't be? 16:50:21 Knirr [~Knirr@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:51:12 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:51:47 H4ns` [~user@p57A9EE03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 -!- H4ns` is now known as mcna-jenkins` 16:51:52 -!- mcna-jenkins` [~user@p57A9EE03.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:55:07 Joreji [~thomas@64-060.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:17 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:31 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-51-245.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-51-245.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:56:31 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:57:16 stassats`, perhaps? (deftype coordinates () '(simple-array single-float (3))) look ok? 16:58:34 where's the class you were talking about? 16:58:44 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:58:51 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 there's also a class definition that's generating type errors 16:59:49 (and yes, this deftype is correct) 16:59:55 though, now sbl seems to be hung, too, so maybe there's a much deeper problem... 16:59:57 fisxoj: can you paste the code? 16:59:57 thanks 17:00:02 *stassats`* is tired of guessing today 17:00:09 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 17:00:53 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@59.40.30.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:02:02 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-215.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:02:27 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 17:06:17 wow, now I'm getting random unicode junk in function names in slime... time to restart the computer! 17:06:56 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:07:14 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 17:09:02 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-215-183-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:09:20 bhyde [~bhyde@static-71-184-65-38.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:37 minion: advice on hardware? 17:10:37 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 17:10:50 minion: advice on compiler? 17:10:50 #11907: Looking for a compiler bug is the strategy of LAST resort. LAST resort. 17:10:54 bad bot 17:11:51 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937645.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:12:09 minion: Advice on clog? 17:12:09 #11948: Perhaps your veeblefitzer is clogged. 17:13:18 minion: advice 12000 17:13:19 Looking for a compiler bug is the second-to-last resort. The last resort is blaming bad RAM. It's never the correct hypothesis. 17:13:24 i was looking for that 17:14:14 -!- kyl_ is now known as kyl 17:14:29 Having had to deal with both bad RAM and compiler bugs, though possibly not at the same time... 17:14:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:15:38 it's easy with SBCL 17:16:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:16:49 True enough, but I try not to go actively looking for them these days. 17:19:12 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937884.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:21:25 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 17:23:03 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:24:27 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@static-71-184-65-38.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 17:26:35 k0001 [~k0001@host29.190-224-49.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:26:54 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-173-79.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined 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Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 19:35:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:36:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:37:17 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:38:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:42:06 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:18 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:2054:6e9c:b3ee:137e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:35 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:2054:6e9c:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:31 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:50:15 elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:50:20 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:25 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:50:54 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:06 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:51:33 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:52:14 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:46 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:56:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.236.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:58:09 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.236.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:07 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 I like how if you don't have a function name where expected, the lispworks error says "Funny car of form" 20:01:09 hahaha 20:01:23 -!- anonus [~user@citadel.niflheim.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06:35 <``Erik> every list programmers should know how to program a lisp? :) 20:06:46 <``Erik> s/t/p/ 20:07:08 <``Erik> s/rs/r/ ... wow, I mangled that sentence 20:07:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:08:28 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:30 ``Erik: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp 20:11:50 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:31 It's only ~50 lines to get the bare minimum; note that (in general) pg will use cond in favor of if pretty much everywhere, which seems to be a quirk of his 20:13:24 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:14:20 ucb [~ulises@184.173.74.133-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:34 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:09 beaumonta [~abeaumont@125.Red-79-150-204.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:50 ``Erik: well, I would say he should know how to program a lisp indeed, since it takes only a single page! 20:18:03 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@183.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:19 cond is not a quirk of only pg. It goes back to JMC! 20:18:52 Lisp was discovered by JMC only because Fortran designers refused to include a ternary IF, and Algol designers refused to include COND! 20:18:56 cond is great 20:19:05 After all, Fortran already had FLPL! (CONS, CAR and CDR). 20:19:14 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:19:27 FLPL: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 20:19:37 jasom: for pg, you have it backwards. 20:19:50 jasom: his code has many examples of nested ifs that would look nicer as cond. 20:20:34 Well, I wrote once a macro to generate (optimized) nested IFs instead of a big cond :-) 20:21:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:24:22 I have a struct with 45 slots, I read data from a flat file and load data in that struct, I'd like a boa-constructor to apply it directly to the splited data, but I'm too lazy to write it down by hand. Ideas? 20:25:04 Rething your life choices, become artisan of some sort? 20:25:25 I guess that is impractical. 20:25:44 dim: macrolet on the defstruct to populate both the slot defs and boa args? 20:25:44 optima is very useful 20:25:51 dim: does the constructor constrict the author? 20:25:56 davazp [~user@92.251.163.195.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 20:26:28 Xach: mmm, maybe yes 20:26:42 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:26:52 dim - i've never had to do that and didn't a moment later have to tidy up the fields a little; so i end up using the regular constructor 20:27:04 Xach: really? I haven't read On Lisp for a while, but I remembere a lot of trivial CONDs 20:27:13 jasom: see Graham Crackers 20:27:48 -!- halfway [~killian@ip-18-96.net.ksu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:52 bhyde: the format is given by /proc//stat this time 20:31:28 Xach: hmm, you're right; I wonder who I'm thinking of 20:32:00 dim: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defparameter *slots* '(a1  a45))) (defstruct (s (:constructor make-s #.*slots*)) #.*slots*) 20:32:21 But indeed, writing your own macro to wrap that would be better. 20:32:44 thanks ;) 20:32:53 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:08 jason don't you need to coerce text into numbers?  for example 20:33:11 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 20:34:15 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop` 20:35:39 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest73812 20:35:43 or possibly jasom 20:35:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:36:08 -!- PuercoPop` is now known as PuercoPop 20:36:30 -!- Guest73812 [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:36:53 bhyde: what is this in relation to? 20:37:27 argh  or maybe I meant to reply to dim 20:37:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:38:13 I do yes, I'm not currently doing that in the constructor function 20:39:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:42:43 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: !] 20:44:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:46:07 ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has joined #lisp 20:46:18 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD24B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:46:26 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:01 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:47:48 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d81483e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:29 dim  i wrote dozens of these a few years ago  all like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136676 20:49:40 tekai [~tekai@f054020035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:40 -!- tekai [~tekai@f054020035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:51 well, except the loop terminates 20:50:05 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:45 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:55:54 -!- valeryz [~user@144-97-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:02:04 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:02:32 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:56 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:05:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:10 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:06:18 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:06:32 af8hw5a92 [~q12zxr5@static-50-43-16-216.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:15 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:09:53 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:05 is it possible to use the body of a macro more than once? 21:10:22 halfway [~killian@ip-18-100.net.ksu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:10:28 ASau` [~user@p5797FBE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:11:55 sure. 21:11:59 ok, http://paste.lisp.org/display/136677 21:12:04 I don't get it 21:12:15 it is just a parameter given to the macro function. it can be used in the return value as few or as many times as you like. 21:12:42 dim: I would use &rest and not &body if it is not actually a body of code 21:13:05 I did wonder about that and decided that a macro with no &body was too strange 21:13:16 happy to learn it's not :) 21:13:28 dim: slots is ((A B C)) 21:13:32 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF970D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:13:38 dim: either don't use &body/&rest or don't put parens in the call. 21:14:10 it's just like (defun foo (&rest args) ...) (foo '(a b c)) ... args is then bound to ((a b c)) 21:14:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:31 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 21:14:54 damn. I knew I would feel stupid reading the answer 21:14:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:15:01 I didn't expect *that* stupid though :) 21:15:17 thanks a lot Xach, of course I don't want parens in the call 21:15:20 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c06e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:53 no problem 21:16:36 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-195-27.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:18:47 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@36-229-172-54.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:19:02 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:19:12 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:25 bitonic [~user@151.225.50.3] has joined #lisp 21:25:17 -!- bioevolgenec1 [~bioevolge@ppp-2-84-43-243.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:25:34 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:25:53 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:08 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:27:56 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:30:13 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:30:47 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:51 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:30:57 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@mobilenet1-4-159-142.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:31:30 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 21:32:09 Nauntilus [~NickServ@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:57 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:33:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:04 Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002ebc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:35:15 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:39:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:42:23 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:19 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-0d1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 21:45:25 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:49:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:49:47 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 21:51:03 -!- af8hw5a92 [~q12zxr5@static-50-43-16-216.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has left #lisp 21:51:18 Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:59 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:55:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:55:26 antgreen [~green@199.106.165.233] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 21:57:27 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 22:00:11 Would someone please tell me how you debug a function which is deep down in chain of functions without (single stepping AND breakpoint) support from a compiler? Thanks 22:00:28 FORMAT. 22:00:33 FORMAT debugging is awesome. 22:02:12 nyef: i was thinking people making jokes about their debugging when they say they printf debug c projects, but i can understand if that is the case for CL because you can so fast compile a single function without touching others 22:02:34 i just want to know if that is THE way *cheers 22:02:35 nan_: and we have trace 22:02:51 nan_: also, insert (break) into the function? 22:02:54 Hell, I find printf() to be a useful debugging tool in C. But FORMAT is very much more flexible. 22:03:07 H4ns: trace without breakpoint doesn't make much sense as far as i can see, what am i missing? 22:03:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 22:03:21 nan_: maybe http://netzhansa.blogspot.de/2012/02/traces-of-awesomeness.html has something for you 22:03:37 nan_: also, you do have breakpoints - (break) :) 22:03:48 nan_: most implementations allow you to break upon entry or exit of a traced function 22:03:48 I think usually you want to design your functions so that you can test them without too much context.. but I use format debugging a lot as well 22:03:57 p_l: you can't use it with trace 22:04:31 nan_: you can, however, trigger debugger with conditions, iirc 22:05:06 H4ns: i know sbcl trace and i use its options but you mostly need to break and continue tracing, right now you cant do it afak 22:05:22 nan_: what is your programming background? 22:05:32 antonv: c++ 22:05:40 nan_: mine too (also java) 22:06:14 nan_: my advice: forget the pleasant habit of debugging with breakpoints and stepping you have in C++ environments and Java environments 22:06:38 nan_: I mean don't try to find a way to do the same in lisp 22:07:01 nan_: just accept there is not such thing of observing the program behaviour 22:07:11 well, there is 22:07:16 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:37 you'd have to use Allegro or Lispworks and their respective IDEs 22:08:06 fe[nl]ix: well, I haven't tried Allegro and Lispworks 22:08:16 antonv: yesterday i did some FORMAT debugging and it helped alot, maybe i need to get used to it and make some tools 22:08:21 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:08:22 There's no way to trace an anonymous function, right? 22:08:26 I was able to do fairly decent step through debugging with SBCL 22:08:58 tracing and breakpoints working just fine with SBCL problem is you can't do stepping AND breakpoint 22:09:02 nan_: yes, this is exactly what I mean, don't try to find the thing that is absent and look into the what is available 22:09:10 jasom: a lambda ? no 22:09:39 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:09:48 fe[nl]ix: well, implementation dependent. 22:10:12 C++ debugging is also impl. dependent 22:10:14 btw 22:10:15 antonv: how about: debugging seems to be better supported in some other languages. easy stepping is one of the things that make it easier. 22:10:18 pkhuong: just confirming that there is no standard way to trace an anonymous function, which is what I concluded from reading the spec 22:10:25 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:57 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:18 pkhuong: how would you do it ? 22:11:35 if a lambda is used in a background thread, how would you refer to it at the REPL ? 22:11:38 it's nameless 22:11:41 -!- halfway [~killian@ip-18-100.net.ksu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:27 fe[nl]ix: with allegro and lispworks can you break and continue single stepping? 22:12:29 fe[nl]ix: :encapsulate nil. 22:12:34 jasom: though there is no standard way, cl-traceable does try to make it simpler to make specific portions of code traceable (and now i see that i haven't released it publicly) 22:12:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:55 pkhuong: what does that mean ? 22:12:59 fe[nl]ix: SBCL's trace can work with function objects. 22:13:03 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 22:13:54 fe[nl]ix: how about the actual function object itself 22:14:03 (trace (lambda (... 22:14:07 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-mmifcbekyfjrssgc] has joined #lisp 22:14:23 nan_: macros make single stepping at the lisp source level kinda impossible (in terms of user expectation). imagine you had a heavily preprocessor macro'd C program and wanted to 'step' the behavior in it 22:14:42 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.199] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:14:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:15:01 pkhuong: the case I'm referring to is (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (loop (funcall (lambda () (format *debug-io* "YAY~%"))) (sleep 1)))) 22:15:02 erikc: still, there might possibly be some ways to step over the code and indicate which symbols are currently 'active'. 22:15:07 how would you trace the inner lambda ? 22:15:08 erikc: much harder, not necessarily impossible. Much like we can have source locations even with macros. 22:15:36 you don't have a reference to it any more 22:15:38 erikc: you can still map opcodes to source lines, for the most part 22:16:01 fe[nl]ix: jasom asked if there's a way to trace an anonymous function. I say it's possible. You're asking how to trace a function that is so unreachable that I expect most compilers to inline it away. 22:16:02 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 fe[nl]ix: use a traceable-lambda instead. that's why i wrote cl-traceable, to debug those cases. (and it's mostly standard, but not fully, and i should release it soon, before it bitrots too much). 22:16:05 erikc: even fancier would be to map opcodes to both expanded and non-expanded lines 22:16:07 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d81483e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: http://www.widelands.org/ -- Latest version: build-15] 22:16:19 I don't understand why you raise that point. 22:16:31 you can come up with mappings, but the semantics to the user (e.g. what it means to step) get really hazy 22:16:53 try debugging an optimized, template-heavy, preprocessor macro'd C++ program with line stepping 22:17:03 erikc: not perfect, but we could perhaps improve the situation 22:17:20 pkhuong: because that's the most problematic case 22:17:45 erikc: single stepping in SBCL works fine, problem is you can't automate it, i mean you need to start stepping at some point where you can't just mash STEP NEXT function 22:17:51 erikc: that's actually a fairly well solved problem with C++ since templated code expands so well; I've seen debuggers that 1) show the template-inline with a little expander thingy or 2) assign the lines to points in the template 22:17:53 it just needs a break and continue support 22:18:00 pkhuong: I've often found myself wanting to trace a lambda so deep in the code that I don't have a reference to it 22:18:14 fe[nl]ix: well clearly you are SOL if you have no way to refer to it 22:18:18 fe[nl]ix: ok. I don't see that that's what jasom was asking about. 22:18:26 fe[nl]ix: you also can't trace a function whose name you forgot 22:18:27 pkhuong: and that's why, on SBCL at least, I try not to use lambdas or local functions 22:19:01 tcr1 [~tcr@46-126-110-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:19:10 fe[nl]ix: ... because you can trace functions that you can't get to in other implementations? 22:19:40 on Allegro, and I think LW too I can trace local functions 22:19:46 fe[nl]ix: and so can SBCL. 22:19:50 That's it, the killer feature of the next gen lisp ide will be "trace the function that I'm thinking of" 22:20:06 I rarely use trace because often I'd like to print just the "right" info and that info is often not all arguments passed and return values 22:20:12 fe[nl]ix: you're talking about trying to trace a function without being able to point to that function. 22:21:05 Maybe one day we'll have TWIM. I'd love to see the spec. 22:21:16 adeht: I often find it easier to filter out the stuff I don't care about from the trace than to manually select the "right" stuff. 22:21:50 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:56 jason: in C++ the issue becomes that people want to step over, step into etc, at different levels of abstraction, they don't want to step into shared_ptr copy constructors cause that's not interesting for their application 22:22:07 jasom: well.. many times I deal with big arrays or tree structures and such.. so it just clutters 22:22:33 it's ugly, shurg 22:22:34 shrug 22:23:06 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.199] has joined #lisp 22:23:26 erikc: i know what you mean, i was using templates heavily (well that is the reason i am here :) 22:23:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:24:38 pkhuong: how do I trace local functions on SBCL ? 22:26:40 fe[nl]ix: by passing a function object to CL:TRACE, because, on SBCL, trace can take function objects. Heck, you don't even have to specify :encapsulate nil, it'll do it for you. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Function-Tracing.html if you want me to repeat a third time. 22:27:57 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:28:31 so let's say I have (defun foo () (flet ((bar () ...)) ...). How do I trace #'bar ? 22:29:36 iirc allegro has a way to refer to it from the outside 22:30:19 which is a bit weird, because it's easy to construct ambiguities 22:30:44 adeht: it can always give you an error/warning 22:30:54 pkhuong: The manual is not clear at all that cl:trace can take a function object. A quick reading suggests it takes a string denoting a package whose functions to trace, or a symbol as the name of a specific function 22:32:48 looks like i need to dive deeper in c.l.l on debugging, to read about their debugging tools/tricks 22:32:53 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937884.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:33:17 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937884.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:34:18 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:34:50 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/9.0/doc/debugging.htm#tracing-methods-2 22:35:22 nan_: it's easier to use format :)) 22:36:04 and also insert (break) in the function body and recompile, and then when break happens inspect backtrace the local variables in slime debugger 22:36:09 CL-USER> (foo) 22:36:16 nan_: an other things people advised above 22:36:21 WARNING: COMMON-LISP-USER::BAR is undefined, not tracing. 22:36:22 hm. 22:36:58 nan_: e.g. trace saves us from writing FORMAT manually 22:37:33 yobahdegobah [~q12zxr5@gateway/tor-sasl/yobahdegobah] has joined #lisp 22:37:42 pkhuong: The only parts of the manual that I can see suggest that trace can take a function object is the explanation for :encapsulate (which says that encapsultate will be set to t for funcallable instances) and :function which suggests it can take an function form (suggests lambda to me). 22:37:55 -!- damncanuck [~user@CPE0021299205a6-CMbc1401e089d0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:39:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:39:59 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:40:36 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:40:42 antonv: i'll use format more often now but trace not always useful to me since this is some realtime app, a loop (which is the reason i need break and continue support) 22:41:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:42:32 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:43:36 Guillem_ [~Guillem@62.57.244.254.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:49 hi 22:43:59 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:43 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:53 -!- Guillem_ [~Guillem@62.57.244.254.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 22:44:57 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:45:00 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:43 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 22:46:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:49:30 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-231-165.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:27 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:50:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-252-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:54:06 pkhuong: Some quick experimentation reveals that indeed the way to pass a function object to trace in SBCL is with :function. However :encapsulate is then set to t (as the manual suggests), not nil (as you suggest). Am I doing something wrong or was this a typo / oversight on your part? 22:54:32 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:56:58 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.50.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:10 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-mmifcbekyfjrssgc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:04:37 -!- Nauntilus [~NickServ@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:08:16 Nauntilus [~NickServ@ip68-2-92-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:54 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:09:47 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:11:12 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:22 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:13:52 -!- antgreen [~green@199.106.165.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14:48 -!- elia [~elia@2-238-29-218.ip242.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:16:34 nan_: I find format/trace to be better than break/step for realtime (in one case we had something where it would have a rapid unscheduled disassembly if we halted for more than 500ms) 23:17:08 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 23:19:27 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:00 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:20:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:24 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:45 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.74.132] has joined #lisp 23:24:54 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.120.153.4] has joined #lisp 23:26:09 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:23 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:28:05 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:17 killsto [~killian@ip70-179-169-110.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:56 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@46-126-110-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:32:31 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:33:46 poindontcare [~user@c-69-181-139-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:35 oh my... informatimago in "How to debug in Common Lisp?" C.L.L says "Not only in REPL" for step, this should be the first sentence of every lisp debug tutorial 23:36:01 it is not only (step (fn)) in REPL, you can put step anywhere! 23:36:16 newbie question, I would like to generate some helper functions which delegate to a general function different default values what would be the easiest way of doing that, something like (foo-set-white),(foo-set-black) which call (foo-set color) where color is bunch of symbols :black :white ? 23:37:18 Do you really want that? Just to type - instead of space : ? 23:38:12 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.163.195.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:26 (defmacro define-foo-setters () `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (color) `(defun ,(intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name 'foo-set-) (symbol-name color))) () (foo-set ',color))) '(white black)))) (define-foo-setters) 23:39:32 well I am actually more curious about how i could achieve something like that even if this is just a trivial thing 23:39:53 Test it with (macroexpand-1 '(define-foo-setters)) 23:40:31 nan_: you may be interested in having a look at my cl-stepper in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/lisp 23:40:31 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:34 pjb: ah , wow, then does define-foo-setters need to be called at evaluation time 23:41:14 pjb: my? are you informatimago? 23:41:18 Yes. 23:41:30 poindontcare: It is a macro, so it is macroexpanded by a compiler, or else, at load time. Then the form it returns is compiled or evaluated by the loader. 23:41:45 *cheers thanks for that C.L.L info as well! 23:41:54 you're welcome. 23:42:19 nan_: if I'd have more time, I'd improve this stepper into a full fleshed sophisticated debugger. 23:42:57 nan_: eg. you could easily modify it to keep trace of all the state changes, and then with some browsing command, you could "debug backward in time"! 23:42:58 pjb: this is why you have the call to (define-foo-setters) at the end so definitions will become valid after this call? 23:43:00 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:43:11 nan_: Check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpI8hIgOyko 23:43:18 poindontcare: yes. 23:43:39 -!- yobahdegobah [~q12zxr5@gateway/tor-sasl/yobahdegobah] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:44:03 poindontcare: you could use #. to avoid definiting the macro: 23:44:26 #.`(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (color) `(defun ,(intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name 'foo-set-) (symbol-name color))) () (foo-set ',color))) '(white black))) 23:44:29 pjb: definiting ? 23:44:39 oh so it happens in place 23:44:45 or you could also use kmp's META macro ;) 23:44:48 defmacro = DEFining the MACRO 23:45:12 adeht: url? 23:45:17 pjb: ah cool thanks! 23:46:19 pjb: it's something like (defmacro meta (&body forms) (let ((blah (gensym))) `(macrolet ((,blah () ,@forms)) (,blah)))) 23:48:31 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:48:39 pjb: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4da9387c1b81573e?dmode=source 23:48:40 Ah, nice! 23:49:15 pjb: one more question in the macro you use defun couldnt (setf (symbol-function (intern setter_name) #'(lambda(c) ))) have worked as well 23:49:29 ffilozov [~user@2a02:8071:2223:6a00:9d77:46:678f:ecdc] has joined #lisp 23:49:35 Corvidium [~cosman246@50-47-80-152.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:36 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:45 pjb: i am reading and watching them now 23:50:17 poindontcare: yes, it (setf symbol-function) does the bare functionality. 23:50:54 poindontcare: but defun does more: it also set the documentation of the function if you write a doc string, and it actually wrap the body in a block named after the function name, so that you can (return-from the-function-name) 23:51:21 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@50-47-80-152.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:38 pjb: ah I see so defun is better practice 23:51:48 It also let the compiler note that function is defined, so it doesn't issue undefined function warnings, and let it optimize calls to that function from the same compilation unit. 23:51:50 and it may do some other implementation specific things. 23:52:33 poindontcare: in general, yes. (setf symbol-function) would be right just at run-time. 23:53:16 pjb: I see , thanks again 23:56:00 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:27 Good night. 23:56:56 *pjb* is surrending to Morpheus. 23:58:45 hypnos is angry