00:00:31 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:17 why write the article? 00:02:25 or why being in pain? 00:02:46 it started as an article on asdf 00:03:04 then I had to explain the wherefore of the design differences between asdf and make 00:04:21 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 00:05:20 -!- hagish [~hagish@p4FC0F84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:11:52 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 00:12:17 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:28 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:06 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:18:30 -!- mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:19:30 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:44 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:26:07 Why being in pain? Writer's block? 00:26:39 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 00:26:43 Isn't asdf essentially a batch program? 00:29:55 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:29:56 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 00:30:35 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:22 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:59 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34:03 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ykngwhsnptofantb] has joined #lisp 00:39:06 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:35 `arrdem [~user@resnet-46-12.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 00:43:16 dreamvision [~Racer-X@68.204.15.252] has joined #lisp 00:43:23 buhman [~buhman@honorificabilitudinitibus.buhman.org] has joined #lisp 00:47:06 axion: So, go on? 00:47:21 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:49:47 dreamvision: type /names 00:49:49 writer's block 00:50:00 pjb: asdf is not a batch program 00:50:09 it's a program meant to be used in a live system 00:50:22 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:23 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:28 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:40 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-39-176.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:54 the bugs I've been fixing lately would be damning in a dead system, but are just tolerable nuisances in a live system. 00:54:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:00:33 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:04 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:02:27 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:29 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:20 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:05:30 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hxprknynqgzunaei] has joined #lisp 01:07:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:08:18 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 01:08:48 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:10:54 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:13:27 dyCrazyEd [~foulmouth@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:14:46 fare: when will xcvb replace asdf? :-) 01:16:44 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 01:17:51 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:17 cross: not until I start hacking on it again, if ever. 01:21:27 lmj`, does lparallel handle fork-parallelism? sigchld handling? do you use select/poll/epoll for event loops? 01:21:40 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:21 should I paint (in the first introduction) cult-of-dead programming in the best or the worst light? 01:24:12 ohnoitsa` [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:25:51 -!- ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:26:34 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.137.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:28:06 Fare: lparallel only does threads. lfarm (http://github.com/lmj/lfarm) does parallelism across Lisp processes, and over a network if you like. 01:28:54 what about event loops? 01:29:09 can your actors wait on multiple event sources? 01:29:40 I've avoided async entirely, since it's a completely different model and not supported by implementations. 01:29:57 Things like cl-async? are made for that. 01:30:27 lparallel/lfarm focus on supported extensions like bordeaux-threads. 01:30:38 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 Fare: If "multiple event sources" are just task completions, then receive-result waits on multiple event sources. 01:33:53 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:26 sablib [~sablib@211.69.194.102] has joined #lisp 01:38:16 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.102.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:38:51 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.149.92] has joined #lisp 01:46:45 -!- `arrdem [~user@resnet-46-12.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:50 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:42 v__ [~v@216.231.132.25] has joined #lisp 01:56:02 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:05 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has joined #lisp 01:57:45 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:04 Fare: The lfarm backend could be replaced with async message passing using something like iolib or cl-async. It's mostly a matter of implementation details. 02:02:18 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:57 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:40 -!- sablib [~sablib@211.69.194.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:25 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:29 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:13:51 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 02:18:25 yes, I was thinking of iolib 02:21:46 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:21:46 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:21:46 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c6a:7578:b3ee:137e] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:21:46 -!- buhman [~buhman@honorificabilitudinitibus.buhman.org] has quit [*.net 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[~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 08:15:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:18:44 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:19:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 08:20:10 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Hunchentoot 1.2.17, SBCL 1.1.6, DRAKMA-1.3.1, CHUNGA-1.1.5, CFFI 0.11.0, Babel 0.4.0, trivial-garbage 0.20 08:20:56 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75671e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:35 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:51 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host26-99-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:26:17 ABCL uses one large 'asdf.lisp' which seems to be concatenated from the individual lisp files in their repository. 08:26:34 anybody around here who knows how to create that file programmatically? 08:26:57 I can't find it in the sources (and just catting them together doesn't work) 08:28:29 make build/asdf.lisp 08:29:11 thanks! 08:30:08 that saved me lots of work :-) 08:30:34 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:48 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:26 yati [~yati@122.170.31.228] has joined #lisp 08:34:18 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:18 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 08:34:21 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:35:33 gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:43 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:38:07 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:38:09 Hi. I am reading Practical Common Lisp and have just started the macros chapter(yay). This piece of code is confusing me, though: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136435 Why is `condition` being evaluated by the macro? Should it not be replaced as it is in the resulting expansion? 08:38:22 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 08:38:28 on [~on@172.Red-81-34-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:33 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e14c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:48 your confusion confuses me 08:38:52 -!- on is now known as Guest23487 08:38:54 I understand why the ,@ is used on body 08:38:57 i don't really understand the question 08:39:12 yati: so you don't understand anything, basically? :) 08:39:37 when you write (when (evenp x) (print x)) you want it to become (if (evenp x) (progn (print x))) 08:39:39 stassats`, the macro should emit code that will instead be evaluated, right? so why evaluate the condition? 08:39:50 stassats`, correct 08:39:53 what else would you be evaluating? 08:39:58 yati: maybe it helps if you macroexpand an invocation of when - that will replace the quasiquoting by regular lisp function calls that may be easier to wrap your head around. 08:40:26 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:41:46 stassats`, H4ns, I see, but evaluating (evenp 2), say, should result in T or NIL, directly, no? 08:42:01 directly? 08:42:15 yati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136435#1 08:42:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:42:58 yati: the variable condition is bound to the form "(evenp 2)". Evaluating it yields that form. 08:43:14 I mean, the result (according to my obviously wrong understanding), should be (if 'T (progn ...)) or (if 'NIL (progn ...)) depending on x, if condition form is being evaluated. 08:43:43 yati: try it yourself 08:43:54 ah, so you want to evaluate it macroexpansion time, how would you evaluate (evenp x) then? 08:44:19 or (random 2) 08:44:35 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:45:31 you need to understand that macros perform source code transformation, before the program is even running 08:45:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-139.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:45:43 H4ns, I did - the result is what a sane WHEN would output, but I really don't get pkhuong's " Evaluating it yields that form". I'm sorry :\ 08:45:45 they do not evaluate things 08:45:48 oh 08:46:56 `(list ,(evenp 4)) gives me (LIST T) 08:47:35 for example, but why does the comma when used within the macro preserve the form (evenp x)? 08:47:35 condition is '(evenp 4), not (evenp 4) 08:47:47 and it's `(list ,'(evenp 4)), if (evenp 4) were passed to a macro 08:47:51 Ah 08:48:22 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 08:48:45 Got it now 08:49:02 `(list ,'(1 2 3)) -> (LIST (1 2 3)) :) 08:49:03 akovalen` [~user@95.72.41.12] has joined #lisp 08:49:52 macros are not like functions, the implementation sees (when a b c) during compilation/evaluation "oh, that looks like a macro", and does (funcall (macro-function 'when) '(when a b c) nil), then gets the result, and replaces (when a b c) with that result 08:50:19 after all macros are expanded that way, the code is only then can be compiled 08:50:38 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.163.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:51:55 Got it (almost). The root of my confusion was that I thought evaluating '(foo bar) results in the funcall (foo bar), but I guess it is the literal form that results. 08:53:04 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 08:55:58 -!- sablib [~sablib@211.69.194.102] has quit [Quit: ] 08:56:43 like macroexpand, is there something I can use to see exactly how the arguments to a macro come in? It would be very helpful. 08:57:10 the arguments come in just as they appear in the source code 08:57:13 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:57:42 the argument to the macro function WHEN, when used as (when a b c), would be just that, (when a b c) 08:58:09 it then destructures that list 08:58:14 clhs d-b 08:58:14 destructuring-bind: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 08:58:27 similarly to destructuring-bind 08:58:43 you can also print the arguments in the expander. 09:00:46 yati: so, macros work on source code, and source code is composed of s-exps (i.e., lists, symbols, etc.) 09:01:01 right 09:03:54 but don't worry about getting it all right, just write lots of macros (and not write when they're not needed), and it'll eventually make sense 09:04:23 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-gqcpyoadpptnhten] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:04:52 stassats`, :) 09:05:30 Thank you all. This was bugging for a while now :) 09:06:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:07:22 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:10:22 -!- asedeno [asedeno@nat/google/x-aciigosfjenipyry] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:10:53 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:11:24 asedeno [asedeno@nat/google/x-cwjftwvkibmhnxes] has joined #lisp 09:16:26 -!- ohnoitsa` [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:24 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:59 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:24:24 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:26:24 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 09:26:46 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 09:29:29 abeaumont [~abeaumont@219.Red-79-150-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:34 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:30:14 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:31:30 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:41 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 09:32:07 pierpa``` [~user@79.56.239.222] has joined #lisp 09:34:53 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host254-220-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.94] has joined #lisp 09:36:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.94] has quit [Changing host] 09:36:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 -!- dyCrazyEd [~foulmouth@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: .] 09:39:07 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 09:41:28 ddyCrazyE [~contrapun@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:46:34 ncw [~ncw@host86-143-115-152.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:37 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:50 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-026-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:50 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@219.Red-79-150-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:50 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:28 abeaumont [~abeaumont@219.Red-79-150-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:27 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:00:40 -!- pierpa``` [~user@79.56.239.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:00:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:42 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 10:02:23 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 10:03:41 pierpa``` [~user@host117-208-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:05:04 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:08:03 -!- pierpa``` [~user@host117-208-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:08:08 buhman [~buhman@h147.163.23.98.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09:35 deech [~user@108.230.9.218] has joined #lisp 10:09:50 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.203] has joined #lisp 10:10:38 Hi all, other than cl-fad are there any other portable file libraries from Common Lisp? I'm looking for a way of creating a temporary directory and cl-fad doesn't expose that functionality. 10:20:41 H4ns: I've started working with Fare to build the ABCL side of the deployment functionality in ASDF (loading from precompiled systems) 10:21:19 H4ns: that's not resolved next week, but from what I see in ASDF, it's within reach for the next month to 6 weeks. 10:21:25 -!- RenJuan [~juan@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:16 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:28 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 10:36:47 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:37:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.95] has joined #lisp 10:37:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.95] has quit [Changing host] 10:37:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:40:06 kirin` 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:58 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ucmfwuhoqwodmgfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:04:25 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-imztkvkrnvfnvhlf] has joined #lisp 12:06:44 Hello 12:07:47 I'm studying functionnal programing and there is a question comparing Haskell and Lisp behavior on dynamic typing I can't answer. I wrote it here : http://paste.lisp.org/display/136437 . Could someone advise me ? 12:08:26 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:08:26 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:24 haskell is not dynamically typed 12:09:58 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-imztkvkrnvfnvhlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:07 ?? But if I write the function on paste.lisp.org without the type, I get a [a] -> [a] witch is dynamic typing, no ? 12:11:27 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-lovcommkeyqluqbo] has joined #lisp 12:11:28 no, it's static typed, using type inference 12:11:32 static typing 12:11:59 haaaaan 12:12:20 as to lisp, i'm not really sure what you're asking 12:12:21 then i'm not sure to understand any more what dynamic typing is but I start to see the problem 12:12:49 Common Lisp is dynamically typed, but you can use type declaration for increased performance, documentation and sometimes safety 12:13:20 when I need to access sb-c:: internals, that had changed recently 12:13:27 Then, if I specify my lisp function take an int as argument, if I call it with char it will fails ? 12:13:41 but type declaration in CL does not guarantee type safety, it's more of a promise to the compiler, some treat it as assertions, some not, some disregard completely 12:13:59 whats the best approach, go through hoops to use FIND-PACKAGE and FIND-SYMBOL, or use (declare (disable-package-locks )) thing? 12:14:01 -!- Guest23487 [~on@172.Red-81-34-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:08 but there are ways to check types explicitly, with CHECK-TYPE 12:14:36 hello. hm. is it possible that eternal-september.org is down currently? (tried from three different IPs and cannot even ping them) 12:15:01 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 12:15:02 but that's rarely needed, aside from API entry points, since function that do care about types (like +, which won't work on strings), will eventually fail 12:15:21 but at run-time, although some implementations employ some form or another of type inference 12:15:21 (just asked here because some people in comp.lang.lisp go there) 12:15:55 maxm-: slime uses (defun with-symbol (name package) "Generate a form suitable for testing with #+." (if (and (find-package package) (find-symbol (string name) package)) '(:and) '(:or))) 12:16:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.93] has joined #lisp 12:16:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.93] has quit [Changing host] 12:16:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:16:21 maxm-: used as #+#.(swank-backend:with-symbol 'function-lambda-list 'sb-introspect) (defimplementation ....) 12:16:32 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-lovcommkeyqluqbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:16:46 v__ [~v@61.173.102.10] has joined #lisp 12:17:41 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-xugemwgutnihmkne] has joined #lisp 12:17:56 stassats`: thanks, I'll steal that 12:18:25 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:21:59 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:22:45 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:22:58 -!- kirin` 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13:09:50 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-nsnoaauuqaptmfrb] has joined #lisp 13:10:56 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:44 andrea93 [~fl_cgs000@14.Red-81-33-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:42 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:51 Gooder [~Gooder@192.200.153.22] has joined #lisp 13:14:58 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-nsnoaauuqaptmfrb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:42 -!- andrea93 [~fl_cgs000@14.Red-81-33-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 13:16:07 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wqzjpjzqhmpogtfz] has joined #lisp 13:18:31 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:20:30 pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has joined #lisp 13:20:51 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:21:13 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wqzjpjzqhmpogtfz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:51 -!- Gooder [~Gooder@192.200.153.22] has quit [Quit: Gooder] 13:22:42 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-biziyiyfexbryijp] has joined #lisp 13:23:39 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:27:35 loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:27:36 -!- ncw [~ncw@host86-143-115-152.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:54 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-biziyiyfexbryijp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:28:15 NeOwA: it would depend on how you specified it to take only "int" arguments, and on the optimization declarations and on the implementation. 13:29:02 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-unhfqqzudvtndynl] has joined #lisp 13:29:12 NeOwA: if you declare the types with declare, then it's an information YOU give to the compiler, and which the compiler MAY use to generate more optimized code (perhaps with less checks). Nonetheless, on a function such as reverse, it wouldn't make a difference in the generated code, so you could still pass anything you want. 13:29:44 NeOwA: if you used check-type, then it would indeed generate a run-time error if you passed something else. (This is dynamic = run-time type checking). 13:29:44 13:30:40 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:31:43 There's no valid reason to declare reverse :: [Int] -> [Int] ; it should be reverse :: [a] -> [a]. Most functions in lisp are actually generic functions, because they don't depend (much) on the type of their arguments. You would have to use templates in C++ all the time to do the same. 13:31:43 13:32:43 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:32:49 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:33:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:33:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:34:10 paroneayea [~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #lisp 13:34:13 yo 13:34:22 those of you who like lisp and python simultaneously may really like hy: 13:34:22 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:34:30 http://hy.pault.ag/ 13:34:32 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 13:34:40 http://hy.readthedocs.org/en/latest/index.html 13:34:45 https://github.com/paultag/hy 13:34:56 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-unhfqqzudvtndynl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:35:01 and if that's exciting to you (lisp that transforms to the python AST!) you may wish to /join #hy 13:35:02 kuzary [~lomo@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 13:35:49 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-gmjgwsudugmbavyo] has joined #lisp 13:36:07 what's the point of converting lisp to python? 13:37:06 stassats`: so you can run it on clpython? 13:37:09 :-) 13:37:43 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:46 stassats`: full python standard library, nice things like dot notation, and! 13:37:49 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 13:38:04 it's bidirectional, you can import .py files in .hy files and vice versa 13:38:05 but! 13:38:10 ehu: that's what i'm asking, clpython doesn't seem like the best target 13:38:12 now you can have macros in lisp! 13:38:26 those are somewhat in progress but are already working somewhat 13:38:32 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:38:48 "your CL code is not slow enough? here, convert it to python" 13:39:38 stassats`: right. except that on clpython, I'd imagine the global interpreter lock isn't required? 13:39:46 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:52 paultag [~paultag@debian/developer/paultag] has joined #lisp 13:40:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:41:20 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-gmjgwsudugmbavyo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:41:25 paroneayea: but doesn't Quicklisp provide most of what comes standard with Python as well? 13:41:34 Well, sometimes you are forced to write python code. Like, when you want to use programs written in python (eg. reposurgeon). 13:41:51 ehu: but with hy, you can write django apps in lisp :) 13:41:52 The only bad point of hy is that it doesn't use the COMMON lisp forms. 13:42:01 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:42:01 because I liked Clojure more :) 13:42:03 or pygame, or whatever. 13:42:12 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-rhosdtgztxarjjis] has joined #lisp 13:42:14 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:16 That's also the strongest bad point of clojure. 13:42:30 pjb: patches actually super welcome 13:42:31 pjb: what is? 13:42:33 python has a rich set of libraries these days, and being able to make use of them in a lisp is really exciting to me 13:42:42 That's why clojure is only used by java programmers. 13:42:46 I'd love for non-clojure folks to feel at home 13:42:46 plus! it's an imperative lisp with access to coroutines! 13:42:56 okay maybe only I find that exciting 13:43:03 *stassats`* feels at home with a real CL implementation 13:43:06 We prefer functional and declarative 13:43:23 okay, well, you don't have to be excited by it 13:43:27 but *I* am excited! :) 13:43:55 Perhaps one day somebody will be motivated enough to write a CL implementation targetting python. 13:44:00 or Javascript. 13:44:07 pjb: Oh, it's easy to target a language 13:44:10 or everything else. 13:44:11 pjb: this actually works in both directions 13:44:15 well, javascript at least makes some sense 13:44:21 it'll look like Python to python 13:44:26 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:28 which is how Django stuff works 13:44:45 e.g. calling import foo; help(foo), where foo is lisp works and looks sane 13:44:47 as does pdb 13:44:51 that's sorta the point 13:45:05 which is why the rest of the language looks like crap 13:45:45 redline` [d03640b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.64.183] has joined #lisp 13:46:34 NeverMined [~never@adsl-69-209-232-218.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:47:38 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-rhosdtgztxarjjis] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:47:41 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:48:46 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-oibcfdmweebllzbn] has joined #lisp 13:48:48 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:23 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-oibcfdmweebllzbn] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:55:17 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-lsqqkolktsnhrvye] has joined #lisp 13:55:56 leoc` [~leoc.git@p57AA636A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:00 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-lsqqkolktsnhrvye] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:04 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host26-99-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:57:16 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 13:57:31 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p57B9B36C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:21 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:58:30 hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.219.128] has joined #lisp 13:58:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.219.128] has quit [Changing host] 13:58:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:58:41 hmm i take my words back. pcl is an awesome book! :) 13:58:49 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vwjmsqsjubafluky] has joined #lisp 14:00:08 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:00:41 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:01:54 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:58 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:02:07 fe[nl]ix: what's up with iolib WARNING: IOLIB.COMMON-LISP also exports the following symbols: <976 symbols>? 14:02:09 stassats`: did you see my SLIME patch? 14:02:19 luis: nope 14:02:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:02:48 theos: did you ever say it wasn't? 14:03:07 loke_ never! :D 14:04:00 luis: i've seen it now, not sure when i'll get around to testing it 14:04:15 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:04:24 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:05:43 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 14:05:44 stassats`: thanks. no problem, my patch karma is very low. I deserve waiting for a while. :-) 14:05:57 is there a way that C-c C-q invokes slime-close-parens-at-point? looks like its not invoking right now 14:06:07 pierpa [~user@95.233.160.102] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 14:06:15 maybe i should ask in #emacs :S 14:06:35 no 14:06:40 you shouldn't ask in #emacs 14:06:49 ok 14:07:06 -!- NeverMined [~never@adsl-69-209-232-218.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:13 it's C-c C-] in the buffer 14:07:20 and C-RET in the repl 14:08:22 Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 14:09:22 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:44 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.102.10] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 14:10:19 v__ [~v@61.173.102.10] has joined #lisp 14:11:11 NeverMined [~never@adsl-76-237-182-120.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:40 -!- xani [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:16 luis: you should send patches fore something more exciting then 14:13:37 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:58 xani [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:14:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has joined #lisp 14:18:26 -!- ivan4th [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:19:48 stassats`: not exciting, but it's definitely useful. Hunting down the error frame all the time is pretty annoying. 14:20:43 i rather meant the implementation is not exciting 14:21:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:21:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:33 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.149.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:24:35 zacts`` [~user@75-161-43-37.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:32 -!- zacts` [~user@67-0-188-190.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:26:01 Is that a bad thing? :) 14:26:52 The "Principle of Least Surprise" if for GUIs, not for Patches. :) 14:27:30 luis: don't know, but it doesn't make me excited in applying the patch, if it were for sbcl, i'd jump in immediately 14:28:28 anyone have any experience with CMCL? 14:28:52 minion: what does CMCL stand for? 14:28:52 Coition Mounting Common Lisp 14:29:22 stassats`: carnegie melon common lisp ...i read it is supposed to have speed comparable to C and FORTRAN 14:29:50 it's called CMUCL 14:29:58 stassats`: ah thank you :) 14:30:03 and SBCL is the successor 14:30:06 stassats`: ever tried it? 14:30:11 ooo 14:30:15 do you have some specific questions? 14:30:15 tell me more :) 14:30:24 tell me about its performance 14:30:43 do you have some _specific_ questions? 14:30:49 protist: it's fast enough. It's impossible to be more specific than that. 14:30:58 is it really as fast or near as fast as C and FORTRAN 14:31:17 Joreji [~thomas@77-21-104-59-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 stassats`: oh, you mean Allegro Common Lisp is not exciting. Now I get it. 14:31:50 stassats`: well, I *think* I have the commit bit. Should I apply it myself? 14:33:06 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:33:17 -!- brendyn is now known as donglord8000 14:33:20 luis: sure, use your judgment, i'm not helmut, after all 14:35:11 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:21 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:35:21 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 14:35:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:57 protist: it's not as fast as C or FORTRAN 14:37:03 but that doesn't mean anything 14:37:15 jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has joined #lisp 14:37:38 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:38:07 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host26-99-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 stassats`: it *is* - I'm developing much faster in CL than in C! 14:39:45 protist: try it yourself 14:40:18 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:40:55 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.128.14] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 ehu: i wasn't talking aboutt developing speed 14:43:08 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:17 -!- kuzary [~lomo@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 14:43:18 ehu: i read that carnegie melon common lisp is competitive in runtime speed :) 14:43:46 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:53 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:44:02 stassats` were C-c C-] and C-RET for me? 14:44:15 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:27 protist: same thing: try it! 14:44:31 theos: do they do what you want? 14:44:38 stassats` nop 14:45:35 stassats` Cc C] works for buffers. but C-RET doesnt work in repl 14:45:39 ehu: lol...i understand your excitement...but i think you misunderstand me :) 14:46:59 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:47:33 stassats` my bad. it works. thanks :) 14:48:04 theos: ok, then they were for you 14:48:07 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has joined #lisp 14:48:18 :) 14:48:43 protist: I don't think I misunderstand you. I think we can talk about this for years. However, if you experience it for yourself, it'll take at most an hour. 14:49:56 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:50:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-21-104-59-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:51:52 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@mobilenet1-4-156-32.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 14:53:25 protist: take a look at fortranwiki.org , I think it's a good wiki to learn a bit about Fortran :) 14:54:49 can somebody ban dioxirane? this is annoying 14:55:52 dioxirane: i am focused on Clisp for the time being :) 14:55:59 stassats`: Fortran is only a tool! 14:56:15 dioxirane: i have heard FORTRAN has impressive array capabilities though because it doesn't allow aliasing 14:56:20 dioxirane: it's not about fortran, it's about you saying nonsense all the time 14:56:25 dioxirane: some time i may look into it :) 14:56:28 protist: the language is called Common Lisp or CL for short. Not Clisp 14:56:50 stassats`: if you're annoyed go away... 14:56:53 ehu: I'm not focused on those...I am focused on Clisp 14:56:56 ehu: :P 14:57:30 *ehu* wonders what's going on 14:57:33 dioxirane: so that you can keep terrorizing this channel? 14:57:41 ehu: just joshing with you :) 14:57:56 stassats`: what is nonsense is not defined by you... 14:58:33 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 -!- dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00:10 dioxirane: that's right, but the topic of the channel really *is* Common Lisp... 15:00:12 i'm not particularly annoyed myself, i can ignore all the inane things, but some people don't know that, and take you seriously 15:00:36 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 -!- paroneayea [~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has left #lisp 15:03:36 -!- xani [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:52 -!- NeverMined [~never@adsl-76-237-182-120.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:09 stassats`: are you serious? 15:04:13 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:29 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:04:50 absolutely 15:05:21 I don't take you seriously 15:05:58 that's dangerous. 15:06:08 xani [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 15:06:10 :-) 15:06:51 RenJuan [~juan@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:04 were you here with a different nick before? was it banned? 15:08:09 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:11 jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:12 Hmm, is there a way to determine if a symbol as a symbol-macro associated with it? 15:10:13 talking to me? 15:10:58 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:11:09 (nth-value 1 (macroexpand-1 'symbol)) 15:11:12 I don't think RenJuan has ever been banned anywhere, only place in freenode I've ever been banned is #drupal 15:11:42 RenJuan: it wasn't to you 15:11:48 only other irc channel was a mensa one on another network whose name I forget 15:11:49 stassats`: ah. so simple 15:11:50 ah 15:11:52 stassats`: thanks :-) 15:11:56 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:13:19 ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75671e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:51 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 15:14:58 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 15:15:37 incidentally, slime's classify-symbol doesn't know about that 15:15:50 (the --t---- in the fuzzy completion) 15:16:15 stassats`: in my case, it showed up as --------- 15:16:45 that constitutes "doesn't know" 15:16:48 Using ccl right now (in order to figure out why on earth my CFFI call causes a SEGV on it, when it works properly on other platforms) 15:17:16 I'm tering bmy hair out on this one... There doesn't happen to be any known issues with CFFI on CCL? 15:17:19 YoungFrog [~youngfrog@geodiff-mac3.ulb.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:17:20 paste the code? 15:19:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/136438 15:19:58 name-string is ascii, so LENGTH will always return the right thing for now... 15:19:59 loke_: ccl allocates on the stack, so all the foreign objects are dead after that 15:20:05 you need to use foreign-alloc 15:20:32 stassats`: that's fine. I never expect it to live after the end of the frame 15:21:13 the crash is _inside_ gss-import-name, so as far as I can tell, there should be no opportunity for anything to be released at that point, yes? 15:22:21 zacts``` [~user@75-161-66-179.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:28 well, hard to say without being able to run it 15:23:07 stassats`: You are able to run it. CL-GSS on quicklisp 15:23:20 -!- zacts`` [~user@75-161-43-37.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:24:00 so, what do i call? 15:24:09 (cl-gss:make-name "foo") 15:24:42 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:25:27 => # 15:25:31 wtf 15:25:46 stassats`: I was using latest ccl on x86/65 15:25:48 64 even 15:25:57 stassats`: are you on Linux? 15:26:04 yes 15:26:14 i'm not on the latest latest ccl 15:26:47 stassats`: what Linux are you on? (specifically, are you on a LInux that ships with Heimdal instead of MIT Kerberos?) 15:26:56 "what?" 15:27:15 stassats`: that's OK, if you're on Ubuntu or RedHat, you're on MIT 15:27:21 debian 15:27:27 OK, MIT then 15:27:32 (I think :-) ) 15:27:36 wat :) 15:27:51 Oh, reading scrollback helps. 15:28:26 What version does "dpkg -l krb5-user" give you? 15:29:06 1.10.1+dfsg-4+nmu1 15:29:11 OK, same as me 15:29:39 what cffi version do you have? 15:29:43 close enough anyway... Hmm... so the only difference I can think of is in the CCL version 15:29:48 stassats`: latest from QL 15:30:18 i'm now on the latest ccl, works fine 15:30:24 argh 15:30:39 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:13 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:31:15 hah, but, krb5-user is not actually installed here 15:31:43 hmm 15:32:20 libgssapi-krb5-2 is at 1.10.1+dfsg-2 15:32:20 Well, actually. MAKE-NAME shouldn't be touching Kerberos actually. It should only create an internal representation for the name. 15:32:29 Henesy [~h3n3sy@75.23.118.193] has joined #lisp 15:33:25 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@75.23.118.193] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:35 Henesy [~h3n3sy@75.23.118.193] has joined #lisp 15:33:59 stassats`: you using 64 or 32 bit? 15:34:00 i decided to do (loop repeat 10000 do (cl-gss:make-name "foo")), Unhandled exception 11 at 0x7fd380791ca0, context->regs at #x7fd35e198378 15:34:12 Same as this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136439 15:34:32 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:34:41 yes 15:35:15 OK, I'm not sure if I'm relieved or worried about that :-) 15:36:25 did it a million times on SBCL just now, no crash 15:37:19 how do one start to debug such a thing? 15:37:35 "think hard" usually works 15:38:52 stassats`: I tried. I'll do some more of that tomorrow 15:38:58 I'm too tired right now 15:39:06 stassats`: Thanks a lot for your help 15:39:15 at least now I know it's not just my system 15:41:55 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 15:44:37 -!- redline` [d03640b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.64.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:18 loke_: http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/iseries/v5r3/index.jsp?topic=%2Fapis%2Fgss_import_name.htm says gss_buffer_t input_name_buffer, 15:46:28 you have (input-name-buffer (:pointer gss-buffer-desc)) 15:46:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:51 yes. Because gss_buffer_t is typedeffed to gss_buffer_desc* 15:47:28 removing :pointer doesn't crash it for me anymore 15:48:02 really? 15:48:04 hmm 15:48:10 well, that's not an indication that it's right 15:48:23 *ehu* feels like that's trial-and-error 15:48:54 always when using CFFI 15:49:31 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:50:28 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 no, running several times crashes it anyway 15:51:36 paradoja [~paradoja@85.Red-213-4-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:37 argh 15:52:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:54:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:54:26 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 15:54:28 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 15:54:36 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:56:07 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:58:13 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:00 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:00:42 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:53 loke_: how to check that the result is correct? 16:03:12 stassats`: You can use gss_export_name to get back the original name. Problem is, I haven't exposed that one in cl-gss 16:04:42 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:05:20 oh wat 16:05:22 wait 16:05:43 use (cl-gss:name-to-string name) on the name that you got from make-name 16:06:13 I forgot that I made that one :-) 16:06:32 so, (cl-gss:name-to-string (cl-gss:make-name X)) should return X 16:06:40 that works 16:08:09 you got it to work? 16:09:32 no, that returns X when it does not crash 16:09:39 ah ok 16:09:50 I haven't be able to get it to work even once 16:10:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:29 should I be trying to use loops more often than recursion? 16:10:37 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:38 quasisane: yes 16:10:42 quazimodo: i mean you 16:10:50 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:50 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:50 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 16:10:51 loke_: is it an optimisation issue? 16:11:10 or a lisp style thing 16:11:12 quazimodo: Well, recursion can blow the stack and is generally slower 16:11:24 quazimodo: it's also not as clear 16:11:49 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 16:12:43 aren't #. (= read-time-value?) and load-time-value very much distinct ? 16:12:51 quazimodo: Unless there's a risk of blowing the stack, I stick with whichever is more readable for the circumstance. Usually loops are more readable, but not always... 16:13:00 *ehu* reads a mail on armedbear-devel and needs to check. 16:13:20 well, one is at done before compile-time, another at load-time 16:14:26 ehu: so, that's just nonsense, at least when taken out of context 16:16:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17:21 stassats`: thanks :-) then one can't be deprecated in favor of the other. 16:17:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:17:53 right, they're not interchangeable 16:19:55 stassats`: thanks for your help. 16:20:03 I'm heading to bed now 16:20:07 too tired 16:20:12 well, what thanks, it's not resolved 16:20:27 well, not yet anyway 16:22:20 Xach: log4cl sbcl borking is fixed 16:22:32 -!- loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:17 -!- maxm- is now known as maxm 16:23:22 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:23:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:25:14 the following format string works on SBCL, but not on CCL64. is it unspecified, or is either of them wrong? (format nil "~{~{~A = ~A~}~,^,~} ~A" '((foo bar) (baz bang)) "boo") 16:25:28 -!- NeOwA [~chatzilla@mar92-5-82-226-126-12.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26:12 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:21 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.102.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:27 m4dnificent: wfm 16:27:34 m4dnificent: looks legit, too 16:27:47 H4ns: wfm? 16:27:53 oh 16:27:55 , before ~} is taken as a parameter separator 16:28:29 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 16:28:44 shortened: (format nil "~{~a~,^,~}" '(1)) 16:28:46 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 16:28:55 it shouldn't be, should it? 16:28:56 why do you use ~,^, anyway? 16:29:08 i mean "~,^" 16:29:21 with ~^, it works 16:29:48 stassats`: i'll read the spec on it, you may be right. still it doesn't seem /wrong/ to me. 16:29:59 ~,^,~} should be ~,^ literal comma ~} 16:30:48 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-116.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:31:14 kpreid: literal comma? 16:31:22 well, it's a bug, yes, but you can easily workaround it 16:31:32 especially when the workaround form is better 16:31:39 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:56 madnificent: sure, "," isn't special except between ~ and the directive character 16:32:13 quazimodo: The Lisp style is to get it done. For me I write a lot of things that are naturally recursive as recursive, and then refactor as needed for stack issues and/or performance as needed. A lot of things are just more naturally loops IMO though and for those I use loops. 16:32:18 NeOwA [~chatzilla@mar92-5-82-226-126-12.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:38 Krystof: yeah, so it's not like the formatstring itself is incorrect 16:33:15 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-216-10.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:50 hey folks, I got a word back from MSI (Hisao Kuroda) about the CLML repo they have on github, saying the README there is obsolete and they have GPL in mind.. just in case anybody else was interested (: https://github.com/mathematical-systems/clml 16:35:20 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:35:26 just to get it straight, there never really is a reason to use "~,^" right? it essetially is the same as "~^" 16:35:34 yes 16:35:45 well, you can use to shame ccl developers 16:36:25 stassats`: that's not my goal. if anyone is on the CCL mailing list, feel free to report it. 16:36:59 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 16:36:59 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 16:36:59 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 16:37:06 nkonteks [~nykonteks@85.24.88.144.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:37:14 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:20 *madnificent* wonders where he picked up ~,^ has grown so accustomed to it that he didn't realize how dumb it actually is. 16:38:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:22 actually, it's not really specified what happens with ~,directive 16:39:16 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 16:39:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:03 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-216-10.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:40:59 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:19 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:42:06 stassats`: i don't see any specification indicating what should happen when you supply too many optional parameters. ^ doesn't seem to have any optional parameters either. so with that in mind, i really shouldn't blame CCL at all :) 16:42:29 but it's not about ^, it's about 16:42:32 } 16:42:45 it thinks you're passing ^ to } 16:42:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:43:04 e.g.: (format nil "~{~a~,a,~}" '(1 2)) 16:44:07 hmmm 16:44:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:44:52 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 (omitted a ~), in this case 16:45:12 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:47:07 that feels odd. can ~ be an optional argument? 16:47:54 neither can a, but it complains about the number of arguments, not their nature 16:48:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:50:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:55:04 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:05 stassats`: sounds sane 16:55:07 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.72] has joined #lisp 16:55:31 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest83519 16:55:33 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56:50 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:58:45 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:33 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:00:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:01:51 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:07 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 17:02:49 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e14c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:34 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:56 -!- Flame_Alchemist is now known as Flame[afk] 17:07:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:08:34 redline` [d03640b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.64.183] has joined #lisp 17:08:41 -!- redline` [d03640b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.64.183] has left #lisp 17:12:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:11 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:15:10 -!- nkonteks [~nykonteks@85.24.88.144.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has left #lisp 17:15:54 dnolen [~user@199.47.72.128] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.167.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:19 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:23:58 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:25:19 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:22 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:29:47 -!- Flame[afk] is now known as Flame_Alchemist 17:34:25 maxm: does it work with older SBCLs too? 17:35:59 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 17:37:29 Xach: if I didn't thank you for Quicklisp, then let me do it now, if I did, then I'll do it again. 17:37:37 no problem! 17:38:15 -!- protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:38:24 it really sets a measurable standard for "usability" that we've been working on with ABCL. 17:38:36 doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has joined #lisp 17:38:43 glad to hear it, and glad that cl-test-grid sprung up indpendently 17:38:56 sprang? 17:39:03 popped up, like a crocus 17:39:08 I bound nil to 2 and got really confused for a minute 17:39:10 well, Quicklisp was a precondition. 17:46:49 if only SBCL did the same (: 17:47:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.219.128] has joined #lisp 17:47:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.219.128] has quit [Changing host] 17:47:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 pkhuong: referring to 1.1.6? 17:47:29 ehu: indeed. 17:47:56 tekai [~tekai@g224069038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:15 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:54:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:55:11 How can i make such think as the Haskell "(*2)" (curry operator) in lisp ? 17:56:07 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-061-181.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:56:26 alexandria:curry 17:56:28 -!- myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-254-193.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 17:56:47 woot ? 17:56:59 NeOwA: (alexandria:curry '* 2) [inaptly named] 17:57:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:27 (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'* 2 args)) 17:57:52 ncw [~ncw@host86-157-101-232.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 so the quote is part of it or you mean (lol:curry * 2) 17:58:06 then (lol 2) == 4 17:58:24 i suggest you to learn common lisp first 17:58:31 minion: please tell NeOwA about PCL 17:58:31 NeOwA: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:59:24 stassats`: unfortunaly i'm not learning Lisp just learning some stuff for a test about functional programmation 17:59:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59:37 but as soon as those exam are done i'll take a look at this book ;) 17:59:38 then #lisp is not for you 17:59:52 ok.. 18:00:43 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:59 it's sad you react like this as I'm just trying to understand how i can make cool stuff as curry operator in your language 18:04:34 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:50 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:04:59 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-061-181.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:59 -!- dnolen [~user@199.47.72.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:05:25 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:52 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 18:07:52 NeOwA: Try to consider how it looks to join a channel dedicated to a topic, write nonsense guesses about that topic, and then declare no desire to learn the topic to avoid writing guesses. 18:08:09 It comes off as "I'd prefer to waste your time" 18:08:48 -!- zacts``` is now known as zacts 18:09:00 -!- zacts [~user@75-161-66-179.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:09:00 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host26-99-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:54 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:12:46 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 18:13:28 NeOwA: it's not our language. It's *a* language, one you can learn, if you try. 18:15:11 I'm actually learning Lisp, as I'm learning the syntax of it. What I meant is for now I'm working for a test, it means I won't have time to Learn lisp completly in 2 days and what I'm doing now is understanding how Lisp syntax implement some functinnal paradigm 18:15:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:15:30 common 18:15:38 Common lisp sorry 18:15:53 syntax isn't really what makes things functional. 18:15:55 But I can understand you see it as a waste of time 18:15:55 There's not actually any specific "Lisp" language; the answers you get here will be specific to Common Lisp. 18:16:27 if haskell had "partial TIMES TWO" to mean what "(*2)" does now that wouldn't change anything really. 18:16:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:16:57 NeOwA: may I suggest Practical Common Lisp before going out there on your own? 18:17:17 ehu: I gather PCL isn't on the test. 18:17:36 i don't imagine #lisp is one of the supplemental materials either 18:18:24 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:45 NeOwA: if your point is that you have too little time, then your best bet is to post-pone learning Common Lisp to a time when you do. 18:18:56 What i'm actually learning is out of the test scope I guess but I saw cool stuff like faking Lazy analysis and other stuff you can do in Lisp and now I try to see how subjects of my test can be done in Lisp 18:18:59 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:19:32 I totaly agree learning CLisp is mandatory for that, but for now I just had a syntax question 18:19:49 "common lisp" or "cl". clisp is a common lisp implementation. 18:19:57 if you see it as an offence, then I'm sorry and i'll stop bothering you but I really wasn't trying to make you feel like that 18:20:41 you've been asking "just a small question" for much longer than this one question. 18:21:20 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:24 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 18:26:27 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 18:29:53 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-0-136.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:50 -!- NeOwA [~chatzilla@mar92-5-82-226-126-12.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 18:30:52 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has left #lisp 18:31:13 dioxiran1 [~dioxirane@host245-250-dynamic.250-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:31:57 -!- sambio is now known as sambio_sleep 18:33:10 -!- sambio_sleep [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 18:34:24 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:17 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:35 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:48 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:44:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:44:34 -!- dioxiran1 [~dioxirane@host245-250-dynamic.250-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:38 -!- ncw [~ncw@host86-157-101-232.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:00 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:54 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:50:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:04 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:54:58 ipmonger_ [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:28 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:55:28 -!- ipmonger_ is now known as ipmonger 18:56:41 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:57:57 *drewc* just rose from sleep, and though sleep is not death, for some reason today it feels like that form of rising... :D 18:58:31 Easter was yesterday. 18:58:45 drewc is risen 18:58:56 indeed he is 18:59:14 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:59:45 zacts` [~user@168-103-113-93.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:00:59 Xach: not for us catholic french folks it isn't .. we do not have a holiday when he dies, only when he rose .. Easter is _today_ according to those that follow what happened to start the age of pisces :) 19:01:45 http://www.statutoryholidays.com/2013.php <--- look at easter and Quebec 19:01:52 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-116.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:52 wow, I have not switched to #lisp in weeks. casual chitchat and no one getting mad.. Did someone attended anger management? :-) 19:03:21 *drewc* will /kb himself if needed! 19:03:53 this ccl and gss failure is puzzling beyond measure 19:04:27 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:28 stassats`: speaking of failures, did you find anything in cl+ssl? 19:04:42 H4ns: yeah, pull requested yesterday 19:05:05 stassats`: nice! thanks! 19:05:23 H4ns: http://gitorious.org/~stassats/cl-plus-ssl/stassatss-cl-plus-ssl/commit/b3577ede318fc5dd74716ecd2152044dae04495b 19:06:48 nice catch! 19:08:06 so, this ccl thing happens inside a sse3 routine of memcpy 19:08:39 it copies a string into another place, i can print the string ok, it does the same thing a thousand times, but then decides to segfault 19:09:00 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@85.Red-213-4-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:09:18 and it doesn't happen on sbcl 19:10:51 -!- dreamvision [~dreamvisi@68.204.15.252] has left #lisp 19:10:57 stassats`: GC interruption? where are the strings allocated? CL or C heap? Off by one in the length (SBCL pads strings with a 0)? memcpy when memmove is called for? 19:11:03 seems like 2 hunks fail when i try the 0001-gencgc-reclaim-space-more-aggressively.patch on 1.1.6 again, and besides with or without the patch gc.impure fails here...on x86-i486 19:11:15 32-bit linux slack 19:11:31 maybe would be nice use f2cl to use af77 lib (e.g. slatec)... but there is something similar to f2cl that translate CL code to produce .f90 , .f95 etc. files? ... thx 19:11:40 pkhuong: neither of that matches or explains it 19:12:20 can ccl somehow influence sse operations? 19:12:43 stassats`: I don't see how except via the GC. 19:12:44 fails on movntdq %xmm6,0x60(%rdi) 19:14:10 is it a sigsegv or a sigbus? 19:14:38 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 19:14:47 segv 19:14:51 dioxirane: you way want to ask in #fortran, for what you are asking for is a CL implementation done in Fortran (cl2f), and such a thing does not exist very much afaik. 19:15:08 ncw [~ncw@host86-157-101-232.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:13 *stassats`* sprinkles some ccl::without-gcing 19:15:24 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.214.151] has joined #lisp 19:15:27 didn't help 19:17:38 -!- poindontcare [~user@c-69-181-139-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:49 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:19:24 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:20:42 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:22:20 and i can touch both source and destination, it still fails in memcpy 19:22:55 maybe it's due to different alignment and a bug in glibc 19:22:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:23:14 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:23:24 misalignment should be a sigbus. and that'd be quite the bug. 19:23:28 what version of glibc? 19:23:50 pkhuong: well, not misalignment per se, but glibc wrongly calculating where to use sse instructions 19:24:12 -!- ncw [~ncw@host86-157-101-232.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:24:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 how big are the strings anyway? 19:24:32 the failure does not depend on the length 19:24:50 the memcpy code path does. 19:24:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:24:59 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 well, yes, it fails regardless of large or small strings 19:25:15 -!- Guest83519 [~lukas@194.228.13.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:36 How small is small? 19:25:45 currently, 5 chars 19:25:56 plus 0, 6 bytes to copy 19:26:18 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:01 And it fails on movntdq? I'd say there's a bug in the length computation. 19:27:04 wbooze: maybe is not enough stable the distro :) 19:27:19 ..ops.. the version, I'm soory! 19:27:24 *sorry... 19:27:44 stassats`: did slime change to make C-c C-k use ASDF derived pathname? 19:28:10 maxm: for .asd? yes 19:28:24 stassats`: coz my hack to do that, now seems to cause stack exhausted, and I traced it to defmethod component-relative-pathname in swank-asdf.lisp 19:28:27 or you mean for output? 19:28:44 monvntdq should only be used for pretty large copies, and I trust glibc to get that right. Moreover, that instruction seems to be part of an unrolled loop that copies by blocks of at least 96 bytes. 19:28:54 Like that if you C-c C-k a test.lisp, that it goes to ~/.cache/common-lisp/bla/bla 19:29:26 well, i started printing memory addreses, for successful iterations it's always 0x700eb0, but during failure it's 0x7fd6f4000af0 19:29:43 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:31:04 and the pointer on the lisp side stays 0x700eb0ish, but becomes 0x7fd6f4000af0ish on the c side, although i can print its content alright 19:32:43 no, actually, it's different on the lisp side 19:33:05 so, it fails when the pointer is large, so, some long/int issues? 19:33:18 stassats`: that address is on the stack. 19:33:51 pkhuong: that should be fine 19:34:17 i mean, with respect of extent 19:34:34 stassats`: well... except it's 256 GB in. 19:35:02 ccl allocates 512G of memory for itself 19:37:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:25 And? Anyway, the address itself is fishy, but I'd try to make sure the length is sane before memcpy. 19:38:33 the length is sane 19:38:51 and the address is sane (i can printf it) 19:39:04 the contents, the string is the way it should be 19:39:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:40:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:40:28 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:58 well, let's just for giggles try to use memmove 19:41:48 same thing 19:42:06 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:20 you do realize the sigsegv is when writing, right? 19:42:58 no 19:47:09 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-252.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:55 source: 0x7fc180001050 dest: 0x7fc180001090, faulting address: 0x7fc18002f000 19:48:58 that's some way off 19:49:21 jimmy [45fb8b9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.251.139.157] has joined #lisp 19:50:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:51:26 the destination goes 0x7fc18001c710 first, on the next iteration, both are up high 19:52:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 19:53:40 sambio_sleep [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 19:54:09 greetings all! I find the idea of rapidly developing a gui application via the repl very intriguing. While playing around with newLISP and its wrapper around java's guiserver.jar, and after wasting most of the day trying to get emacs/slime and newLISP talking, I was wondering how this kind of thing is done in common lisp, and if so, are there any resources anyone has handy in this regard? 19:54:57 I find that ltk is very good for this, as the GUI runs in a separate process; I've live-updated the GUI several times from a repl with it. 19:55:07 -!- sambio_sleep is now known as sambio 19:55:34 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 19:55:34 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 19:55:50 The downside is that you really need to know tk in order to use it, as the docs are nearly nonexistant 19:56:05 commonqt can be used for that too 19:56:32 alright, my debugging time is up 19:57:38 one last try with a newer glibc 19:58:38 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 20:00:08 -!- Guest84108 is now known as xristos 20:00:42 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:55 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 20:04:15 that's a relief, on newer glibc it fails immediately, not waiting a thousand of iterations 20:04:58 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:05:49 high addresses from the start 20:06:54 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:06:55 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:07:13 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.128.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07:27 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:07:27 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:08:03 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:08:04 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:08:16 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:08:37 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:08:38 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:09:12 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:09:47 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:09:48 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:09:49 I don't know about you, but, gss_buffer_dest are {size_t, void*} here, not {uint32_t, void*} 20:09:56 *desc even. 20:10:07 i noticed that, changed that, but structs are aligned anyhow 20:10:21 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:10:42 padding isn't zeroed out. 20:10:55 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:11:22 well, i've been testing with size_t all this time 20:11:27 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:11:28 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:11:59 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:12:01 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:12:09 let's delete fasls, just to be sure 20:12:36 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 20:12:48 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:12:53 fuck, fuck, fuck 20:13:19 it's because of it, i discovered and fixed the bug two hours ago, but asdf just didn't recompile the grovel file 20:13:36 alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.120.238.165] has joined #lisp 20:13:41 pkhuong: thanks for making me recheck it 20:14:17 i can't believe i wasted so much time 20:14:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-216-10.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:14:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:14:43 well, at least i can blame ASDF, if that's any consolation 20:15:20 stassats`: you cannot blame ASDF 'til Fare is here to listen! :P 20:15:35 well, i can repeat my blames for him 20:16:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:17:06 minion: memo for loke: it's size-t, not om-uint32 in (ctype size-t "size_t") (cstruct gss-buffer-desc "gss_buffer_desc" (length "length" :type size-t) (value "value" :type :pointer)), don't forget to delete fasls! 20:17:06 is that the most 'modern' ASDF? that should indeed be 'fixed' so that last 2 hours was not a waste of time... and of course thank you for discovering it. 20:17:06 Remembered. I'll tell loke when he/she/it next speaks. 20:17:35 yeah, the modern 20:18:23 but that's for tomorrow 20:18:30 stassats`: that's a CFFI bug I fixed some time ago 20:19:01 we should probably make a new release 20:19:44 bummer, didn't have the latest version of cffi on the desktop 20:19:55 drewc: my "problem" now is try to use arpack from CL... and maybe it's not included even in Maxima, so what I have to do to accomplish that? (i.e. no problem to call the Forth routunes from C) 20:20:03 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-165-59.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:20:05 Ok, here is hope that a) You DTRT with regards to Fare/ASDF and b) ASDF now DTRT for that particular .fasl .. c) heh. now that fe[nl]ix says something else, well, I am not going to pretend to be involved. 20:20:33 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:37 i was just used to the modern asdf being swift at recompiling stuff (even when you don't actually want that) 20:20:46 i should keep that in mind the next time 20:22:10 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.171.186] has joined #lisp 20:22:26 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:49 stassats`: and it _should_ be indeed, but fwiw ,I have a `jail-test.sh` that simply clears everything and puts it in a 'jail' because I do not trust ASDF to clean out the proper .fasls at all ... my mind still thinks it is 10 years ago. 20:23:18 -!- Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 20:27:49 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:06 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.120.238.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:37 alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.120.238.165] has joined #lisp 20:30:46 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 -!- Guest58795 is now known as wc 20:31:54 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:31:55 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:32:02 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:32:30 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:58 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:34:23 deech [~user@108.230.9.218] has joined #lisp 20:34:26 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:34:26 -!- sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:35:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:35:16 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 20:35:24 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.29] has joined #lisp 20:35:49 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest27178 20:36:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:36:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:37:31 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:34 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-0-136.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:37:42 alexander [5b09149d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.9.20.157] has joined #lisp 20:38:06 -!- alexander is now known as Guest44500 20:38:26 Hi all, is there a CL library for getting the user's temp dir and portably creating directories as well as files? 20:39:07 deech: cl-fad has temporary file handling 20:39:32 deech: it also defines a logical host that you can use for your own temporary file purposes. 20:39:32 H4ns: Yes, and it has the temp dir functionality too, but it isn't exposed. 20:39:50 -!- Guest44500 [5b09149d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.9.20.157] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:16 deech: it is exposed as logical host name 20:40:19 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 20:40:39 "foo:bar.lisp" 20:40:44 deech: there is also `mktmp` ... not common lisp at all, but neither is temp directory or hostname, so ... 20:41:11 H4ns: I don't follow. I'm looking at the API and don't see how it does that. 20:41:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:38 drewc: Where's that? 20:42:19 deech: it uses the temporary-files logical pathname host, and that is described in the documentation 20:42:50 deech: i.e. it attempts to initialize that logical pathname host to a meaningful value on all platforms. you are free to use that logical pathname host to locate your own temporary files. 20:43:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:43:32 deech: http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Temporary-Files.html and `man mktemp` (sorry about the spelling error on the first one) 20:43:35 deech: a description and pointers are in the "temporary files" section of the cl-fad manual 20:43:39 H4ns: Ah, I see. I was looking at the `get-default-temporary-directory` function that not exposed. 20:43:48 logical ....but "foo/bar.lisp" is usual..... 20:44:00 drewc: Got it! Thanks! 20:44:45 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abof224.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:45:42 deech: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2792675/how-portable-is-mktemp1 <--- in case you have an old Xenix system or AIX system :P 20:46:06 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:17 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:28 mkstemp if you're going to FFI. 20:46:39 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:11 pkhuong: doesn't mkstemp also open the file? 20:47:21 *drewc* has to look up the docs now ... 20:47:25 -!- tekai [~tekai@g224069038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: zZZ] 20:47:29 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:41 deech: "info mktemp" for others infos 20:47:57 pkhuong: ahh! 20:48:02 anyway good to know... thx drewc ^^ 20:48:21 deech: mkstemp if you're going to FFI. ;) 20:49:41 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29876A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:50:18 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-001-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:51:03 drewc: but is the use of mktemp() a security risk? 20:51:56 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-008-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:25 dioxirane: please explain how you see it as a risk. 20:53:09 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75671e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:54:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:54:16 dioxirane: it's mentioned in it's info file 20:54:29 Only if you forget to use O_EXCL when you open it 20:54:30 dioxirane: mkstemp is recommended 20:54:41 wbooze: :-) 20:55:48 drewc: haw can I do to call ARPACK from CL? 20:55:55 *how ... 20:56:00 dioxirane: what is ARPACK? 20:56:28 and why are you asking me? or: huh? 20:56:35 deech: you can use iolib 20:57:09 ops, sorry drewc ! :( 20:57:32 dioxirane: you learn how fortran name mangling and parameter passing look like in C and use your favourite FFI package. 20:57:38 slacko3280 [~root@59.164.108.232] has joined #lisp 20:58:38 pkhuong: can you suggest me a code example to see how to do? 21:00:37 -!- slacko3280 [~root@59.164.108.232] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:00:46 pkhuong: what is "your favourite FFI package 21:00:47 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:56 ?? 21:00:56 cffi ? 21:01:13 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:01:32 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:01:42 slacko3280 [~root@59.164.108.232] has joined #lisp 21:01:48 *drewc* is tempted to /ignore but instead goes to another buffer and stops paying attention to #lisp atm 21:02:57 -!- jimmy [45fb8b9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.251.139.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:05 wbooze: ok.. thanks 21:03:43 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:03:46 drewc: pay more attention to your suggestions please 21:03:59 dioxirane: sorry? 21:04:24 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:46 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:05:04 http://stackoverflow.com/a/14481242 has a simple example for ddot. It's more complicated with callbacks; http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/CCC/Unix/Docs/ifc/f_ug/mix_callp.htm may or may not work. 21:05:15 My favourite FFI package is sb-alien. Some prefer CFFI. 21:05:38 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-252.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:06:16 *drewc* has #-sbcl (error ...) in a few places :) 21:06:27 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:39 pkhuong: thanks ... 21:07:48 well alien and sb-alien are two builtins or contribs to two implementations of common-lisp 21:07:56 cffi is a third party library module not ? 21:08:11 so to say.... 21:08:33 dunno if they are builtins or contribs actually.... 21:10:24 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.120.238.165] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:25 you maybe closer to the implementation with alien...and you maybe more portable with cffi.... dunno if that holds.... 21:10:37 hummmm 21:11:00 -!- slacko3280 [~root@59.164.108.232] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:11:09 So I hafe to call C from CL using CFFI/sb-alien to use Fortran routines under CL ... 21:11:23 dioxirane: no. 21:11:50 dioxirane: check out how matlisp does it with blas/lapack/quadpack/minpack/etc 21:12:10 slacko3280 [~root@59.164.108.232] has joined #lisp 21:13:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:14:15 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:15:05 dioxirane: no. You learn how to treat fortran as C and use the usual C-oriented FFI. 21:17:13 -!- slacko3280 [~root@59.164.108.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-139.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:24 pkhuong: I've never used cffi :( , sorry for the annoyance... 21:20:00 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:13 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:52 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [] 21:21:08 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-171-73.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:47 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abof224.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 21:22:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:22 zacts`` [~user@174-28-33-139.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:24 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:46 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-132-105.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:13 -!- zacts` [~user@168-103-113-93.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:25 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:10 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1096586303.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:29:43 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 21:31:39 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p57AA636A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:29 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:37:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:40:21 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-116.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:40:27 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 21:41:53 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 21:49:11 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-008-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:50:45 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:53 brkpnt [~ezequiel@190.48.167.41] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:11 pierpa` [~user@host6-208-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:52:50 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:55:14 -!- pierpa [~user@95.233.160.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:55:20 a 21:55:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:55:49 b cl ? 21:55:52 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:56:04 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 21:56:20 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:31 -!- brkpnt [~ezequiel@190.48.167.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:04 hmmm... invalidly structured code in a paredit-slime-buffer, which i want to delete, but C-k isn't working (probably because of the invalidness)... how can i delete it? 21:57:51 put stuff to delete in a region between point and mark, then C-w and 21:58:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:58:13 Krystof: ah, thanks 21:59:22 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:00:49 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:28 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:50 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:05:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:05:49 -!- Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:05:52 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:45 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:44 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.171.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:20 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:11:16 -!- zacts`` [~user@174-28-33-139.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:11:24 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:12:29 -!- pierpa` [~user@host6-208-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:24 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:29 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 22:20:05 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 22:22:54 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:26:02 -!- dmh [~pi@71-211-227-205.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:13 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:27:48 dmh [~pi@71-33-180-160.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:58 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:05 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 22:28:25 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.141.140] has joined #lisp 22:28:28 -!- sambio is now known as Abr1l 22:28:58 -!- Abr1l is now known as Guest72592 22:29:21 -!- Guest72592 is now known as sambio 22:29:33 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:47 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:33 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:33:10 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:23 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:34:35 does slime have a bracket balancing command? 22:35:12 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:36:16 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:36:34 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:37:16 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:38:41 quazimodo: slime is an emacs mode ... 22:38:42 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:40:56 quazimodo: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit, http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoPairs, https://github.com/Fuco1/smartparens, #emacs is thataway ----> 22:41:51 hello drewc. 22:41:57 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:51 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:08 deech` [~user@108.230.9.218] has joined #lisp 22:44:17 hey hey dto... I almost have some time to spare! Tomorrow I _should_ because it is, after all, a new year :) (poisson d'avril) 22:44:39 what do you mean? 22:44:52 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 22:44:55 oh april fools day 22:45:53 -!- deech [~user@108.230.9.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 22:46:59 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:47:21 yeah ... and it is today ... Ostara day! 22:48:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-180.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:44 *drewc* points to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre for those that want to know what oldies he is referring to. 22:51:45 oh interesting. 22:51:52 before the cadbury bunny 22:51:56 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 22:53:25 *drewc* happens to be "demi Canadien", so "poisson d'avril" and "easter monday" are well known to him :) 22:57:03 :) 22:57:09 stardiviner [~Thunderbi@122.236.248.36] has joined #lisp 22:58:03 *drewc* also wants to mention Ashtoreth : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte and how this is all related to today! :) 23:00:50 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:34 -!- stardiviner [~Thunderbi@122.236.248.36] has quit [Quit: stardiviner] 23:01:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:03:48 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-116.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04:02 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:04:59 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:05:00 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:05:50 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 23:05:56 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:01 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:27 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@75.23.118.193] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:10:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-163-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:10:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-135-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:13:22 deech`` [~user@108.230.9.218] has joined #lisp 23:13:47 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:53 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:14:16 dmh__ [~pi@71-33-180-160.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:50 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.119] has joined #lisp 23:15:02 oticat`_ [~oticat@36-229-171-73.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:04 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:15:11 -!- kliph` is now known as kliph 23:15:19 efftee [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:19 -!- ft [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:15:27 -!- efftee is now known as ft 23:15:37 -!- kliph is now known as 13WAAVALQ 23:15:39 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:15:44 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:06 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:28 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:16:57 kyl_ [~kyle_dev@deathstar.tyrfingr.is] has joined #lisp 23:17:49 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 23:18:10 how do you usually represent something similar to the "State Pattern" on CL? 23:18:36 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.32.164] has joined #lisp 23:18:45 ebobby_ [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 23:18:56 Denommus: with change-class? 23:19:37 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:20:11 ttm [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:13 interesting. Really interesting 23:20:35 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 23:20:43 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:44 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 23:20:54 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:54 -!- dmh [~pi@71-33-180-160.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- oticat` [~oticat@36-229-171-73.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- deech` [~user@108.230.9.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- kyl [~kyle_dev@71.19.144.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:24 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- joneshf [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:39 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:22:12 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 23:22:16 joneshf [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:39 Denommus: I use keywords and eql specializers 23:24:04 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:24:58 c2 says State tries to fake changing an object's class. CLOS lets you do it for real. 23:25:09 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 23:25:49 -!- techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:26:03 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:18 pkhuong: that makes sense; the wikipedia article for the state pattern sucked about as much as most wikipedia articles on design patterns, so I got a poor idea of what it was 23:26:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 23:26:50 pkhuong: In particular the sentence "This can be a cleaner way for an object to change its behavior at runtime without resorting to large monolithic conditional statements" is very misleading 23:27:02 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:27:18 -!- ivan [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:28:03 is the State Pattern really something that exists? I think I have been a CL'er for a bit too long if that is common these days ;) 23:28:38 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:28:51 jasom: I don't like this approach. It can get really ugly with complicated enough state machines. Using change-class allow me to delegate the transitions on each class 23:29:36 jasom: but for simpler things, using change-class is uglier 23:29:52 retweeted what I think : https://twitter.com/common_lisp_net :) 23:30:04 If all you want is a state machine, writing a state machine or trampolining one with closures is probably even easier. 23:30:31 drewc: I wouldn't say it's "common", but it certainly is useful on weaker languages. I personally don't know any other OO language that allows change-class 23:30:38 state ... is that not a monad? 23:30:51 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:03 Denommus: I did not know that CL was an OO language for that matter ;) 23:31:17 oh, yeah. Functional folks don't believe in states. I don't blame you. But I'm not that smart to make stateless games 23:31:22 drewc: it is. CLOS 23:31:48 drewc: something like the dynamic binding monad ;) 23:31:48 ivan [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 23:31:50 I am not a functional type either 23:31:56 pkhuong: http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-2-7 :) 23:31:59 drewc: the largest shared philosophy I've seen is that "everything should be lisp" as in "If I have to use FFI, I've failed" but even that is just a sizeable minority 23:32:46 jasom: I do not share that at all, so not a member of that minority either! 23:33:20 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:33:36 drewc: I fell like I ran into that a lot more maybe 5 years ago or so 23:33:42 *drewc* uses disassemble all the time ... 23:33:56 it would be cool if everything was lisp, but we don't have the luck to use lisp machines nowadays 23:34:11 that's it..... 23:34:21 *drewc* is quite glad about his lack of luck in that regards! 23:34:38 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:34:39 i told them to print some chips.....but they didn't listen.... 23:34:44 lol 23:35:04 x86 are better at running lisp than dedicated hardware ever was. 23:35:06 *drewc* still has and uses the Genera for x86-64 ... 23:35:21 techlife [~jimmy@123.130.6.89] has joined #lisp 23:35:24 does that count as a LispM ? 23:35:52 I sorta agree with the "must be in lisp" view solely to the point that when lisp goes bad, you can do something about it in your code, with a C lib goes bad, your image has faulted out and you're pretty well SOL. 23:36:01 I should have used "luck" instead of luck 23:36:15 whartung: and so lisp replacing C means what exactly? 23:37:02 it means that if you can use, say, a ZIP compressor written in Lisp over C, then it's safer and better integrated. 23:37:08 and should we have lisp as ASM? Common Lisp at that? 23:37:35 oh, ok, so you like Lisp more then tested and working and used by many ... understand :P 23:38:06 whartung: if you have lisp at a low enough level, it will probably be doing unsafe things (think peeking/poking hardware registers) 23:38:25 the lisp machines never needed rebooting, right? 23:38:28 I had bad experience with the "test by the many" from "leading vendors" core dumping operational JVMs when if they were in JAva, I'd get a stack trace. 23:38:46 *drewc* is going to go back to CL'ing, as today is a CFFI day and it is much better then SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM though it is not lisp :) 23:39:31 jasom: MINIX shouldn't need rebooting, either. That doesn't mean it is good, sadly 23:39:44 -!- Guest27178 [~lukas@194.228.13.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:40:11 -!- xani [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:27 jasom: only for GC reasons... nightly (: 23:40:33 whartung: well, having avoided leading vendors all together since '96, and never programming in Java professionally I have a question: is that Java's fault or the vendors fault, or your fault for the wrong choice? 23:41:14 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.29] has joined #lisp 23:41:25 I think the general point that the more code you can move to a managed runtime, the less likely you are to core-dump is true though. 23:41:30 Arguably, it's java's fault for not handling a seg fault properly, but I can appreciate a system taking that point of view. 23:41:32 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:38 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest32963 23:42:00 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:42:00 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:42:01 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 23:42:11 just like in Java, if you get Out of Memory exception, yea, it's "recoveable", but your JVM is likely hosed in who knows how bad ways. 23:42:33 whartung: java does not handle a segfault properly? interesting ... is there a reason in the 'standard' why it is handled improperly? 23:42:40 and for that as well? 23:42:41 since most systems do not check for that severity of runtime error and the exception just crashes and burns its way all the way to the top, leaving wreckage behind. 23:43:05 I doubt it's mentioned in the standard at all. 23:43:18 interesting, and that is Java based only and not something that happens to many langs? 23:43:58 I wonder why my SBCL keeps crashing to ldb then! ;) 23:44:45 I dunno, does python handle a segfault well? I haven't the slightest idea. How DO you handle a segfault? 23:44:53 what's the proper response? 23:44:59 is ldb written in java ? 23:46:11 what do the lisps do when a FFI routine segfaults? 23:47:35 the FFI is not in the standard, so "Mu" may be the right response. 23:47:36 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:45 whartung: implementation specific. SBCL turns them into conditions. 23:47:52 cool 23:48:09 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 23:48:48 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE0024369f3a03-CM00194792a698.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:48:49 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:48:55 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE0024369f3a03-CM00194792a698.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:43 *drewc* knows why his SBCL keeps crashing for what it is worth 23:50:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:51:02 Out of Memory error :D 23:51:53 and it is my fault, and is actually the sign that I messed up my recursive descent 23:52:12 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:52:25 drewc: ironically, it seems I mostly exhaust the heap during GC. If it happens outside GC, you get a continuable error. 23:52:43 Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has joined #lisp 23:52:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 23:52:46 pkhuong: funny/sad but true 23:54:12 and that really only happens to me on 32 bit fwiw, on 64 I usually get the continuable error... 23:56:08 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: panic] 23:56:16 what I really need to do is detect the circle and FAIL or ZERO there, but meh ... it only happens when I mess it up, and only rarely does it crash, so i take it as a sign that I am not good enough to avoid errors or detect cycles. 23:58:03 drewc: there are examples that show failing on left recursion doesn't always do what you'd expect from the grammar. If you don't want to automatically transform left recursion away, I think it's best to aim for an error. 23:58:50 drewc, it's not clear to me how Eostre is identified with Astarte.. a google search just brings some christian sites identifying them without explanation but where's a historical link