00:01:12 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:03:04 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:44 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:03:53 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:35 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 00:07:40 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 00:10:09 argh. finally so spoiled by paredit that now that it's mangled by xterm + screen i can't get hacking. 00:10:59 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 00:12:32 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12:34 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7544a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:13:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 00:14:28 M-[ 1 ; 5 d is undefined 00:16:15 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:49 Xach, do you use paredit in the slime REPL? 00:17:04 Quadrescence: not usually. sometimes i think i should start. 00:17:14 I should turn it on for a while and see how I fare. 00:17:34 me neither, i think it's because I'd have to re-map enter to not send results to the evaluator 00:17:41 *Xach* resorts to a bunch of .emacs entries of the form (define-key input-decode-map "\M-[1;5D" [C-left]) 00:18:11 :)) 00:21:54 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:22:33 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 00:22:38 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:16 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:25:27 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:58 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:39 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:39 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:31:39 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:33:31 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:34:08 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:34:52 clintm [~user@c-76-121-226-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:15 ffilozov [~user@cpc11-dals18-2-0-cust906.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:23 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:06 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:41:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:22 -!- ffilozov [~user@cpc11-dals18-2-0-cust906.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:43:05 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:43:59 -!- pierpa [~user@95.234.223.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:46:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:47:50 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 00:53:00 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: bleeding] 00:55:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:54 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 00:57:54 -!- clintm [~user@c-76-121-226-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:00:01 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:23 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 01:01:56 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:00 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:10 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:03:19 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:03:30 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:08:31 poindontcare [~user@c-69-181-139-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:13 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.98.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:49 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:17:43 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.119] has joined #lisp 01:24:37 v__ [~v@202.153.186.114] has joined #lisp 01:26:35 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:45 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:26:45 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 01:30:01 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:46 -!- v__ [~v@202.153.186.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:32:40 protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:33:31 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:40 clintm [~user@c-76-121-226-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:19 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:39:46 astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-235-122.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:00 hello, is there a way in clos to associate an assertion with a slot in a class? 01:42:19 Like if I wanted to insist that a certain field was always an integer? 01:43:54 Then the assertion would be performed when the value is set, either from MAKE-INSTANCE or a writer method 01:45:17 I guess the compiler could also use the assertion as a type hint to optimize storage in the class instance. 01:46:31 astertronistic, do you want general assertions or types? 01:46:44 astertronistic, you can provide a :TYPE key to the slot 01:46:52 ok, that's perfect 01:46:54 thanks 01:47:20 v__ [~v@61.173.98.232] has joined #lisp 01:47:51 -!- pjb is now known as g___ 01:47:54 I guess, types are assertions, assertions are types... 01:47:58 Hi v__! 01:48:26 astertronistic: you can always (deftype x () `(satisfies ) 01:48:35 -!- g___ is now known as pjb 01:48:42 wow, that's neat 01:49:01 astertronistic: note however that implementations are free to ignore type declarations. 01:49:26 oh ok, well, it's better than nothing 01:49:29 astertronistic: so perhaps you want to check the types in the setters and initialize-instance ? 01:49:47 yeah that's what I'm looking for right now 01:52:19 clhs check-type 01:52:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm 01:53:42 thanks 01:53:44 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 01:55:12 I have two functions that format t a table, is there an easy way to combine the functions such as that the output is side by side? 01:56:37 I'm sure how it would be done in lisp, but you could have them both run as threads and have them yield to each other every time they have printed a line 01:56:53 *I'm not sure how it would be done in lisp 01:56:55 (mapcar (lambda (a b) (format t "~A ~A~%" a b)) (split-sequence #\newline (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (format-table-1))) (split-sequence #\newline (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (format-table-1)))) 01:57:01 s/mapcar/map nil/ 01:57:32 and 2s/format-table-1/format-table-2/ 01:58:28 does lisp have coroutines? 01:58:45 You could do something like that with throw/catch. 01:59:54 Or more generally, you can write a coroutines system encapsulated into a macro, that would make the required code transformations. 01:59:59 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:12 that's right, lisp can resume exceptions 02:00:21 astertronistic: and it's been done a couple of times. 02:00:38 eg. in Uncommon Web (Arnesi). 02:03:54 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:05:48 przl_ [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:36 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:08:51 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2982B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:19:17 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 02:20:25 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:47 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.98] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 02:27:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:29:59 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:50 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:34:05 astertronistic: hmm, this does not work as well as I was hoping for. It would have been nice if format handled this for you. I mean things like handling different line counts, etc 02:34:24 astertronistic: sorry, that was meant for pjb 02:34:32 -!- imsky [~imsky@unaffiliated/imsky] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:36:25 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:38:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:42:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:42:37 imsky [~imsky@unaffiliated/imsky] has joined #lisp 02:43:43 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:48:34 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:49:06 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.119] has joined #lisp 02:53:59 -!- imsky [~imsky@unaffiliated/imsky] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:00:06 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:00 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:02:34 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[~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:53 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-24-51.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:21 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10:06 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 04:12:42 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 04:16:24 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:28 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:27 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:06 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:43 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 04:28:47 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:29:01 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 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[~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:49:15 swks [~swks@195.189.51.112] has joined #lisp 04:50:53 -!- swks [~swks@195.189.51.112] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:03 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:54:41 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 04:54:41 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 04:55:51 jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 04:56:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:00 -!- jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:09 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:17 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:23 newbie question, what is the difference between variables in loop declared in with for and ones declared by "with" not sure of the difference 05:04:07 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:05:03 <|3b|> (loop with i = (random 1.0) ...) sets I to a random value once at the beginning of the loop, (loop for i = (random 1.0) ...) sets I to a random value every time through the loop 05:05:10 poindontcare: with is only during initialization of the loop, for rebinds the value on every iteration. 05:05:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:05:14 *|3b|* isn't sure if that is what you were asking or not 05:11:02 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 05:11:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11:28 |3b|: sorry, yeah that is exactly what i was asking thanks 05:12:19 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:14:45 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:55 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:12 poindontcare: awesome nick :) 05:22:01 sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.42.239] has joined #lisp 05:25:56 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:05 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:10 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:33:33 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 05:34:14 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:34:42 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:38:54 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-61-254.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:34 sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:50:45 -!- sambio is now known as zambio 05:51:47 -!- zambio is now known as gambioy 05:52:16 -!- gambioy is now known as gaymbio 05:54:19 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[~adlai@p4FC211F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:59:23 -!- Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:01:44 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:06:33 leoc [~leoc.git@p57B9AE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:57 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:13:25 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.206] has joined #lisp 07:15:57 -!- imsky [~imsky@unaffiliated/imsky] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:18:43 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585040.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:22:18 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585040.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:25:44 dmh [~pi@71-211-227-205.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:59 [1]reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-61-254.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:56 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-61-254.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:31:56 -!- [1]reckler is now known as reckler 07:33:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:46 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 07:35:33 does anyone have any recommendations for must read books for an experienced programmer digging into lisp? 07:35:46 minion: please tell dmh about PCL 07:35:47 so far i got: SICP & the little schemer 07:35:47 minion: tell dmh about pcl 07:35:47 dmh: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:36:11 hmm ok 07:36:11 minion: please tell dmh about PAIP 07:36:12 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 07:36:21 dmh: if you are experienced, i would also recommend "on lisp" and amop 07:36:24 minion: amop 07:36:24 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.alu.org/mop/ 07:36:33 minion: onlisp 07:36:33 onlisp: An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. at http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp 07:36:45 im experienced in typical OO langauges 07:36:56 dmh: i got by with PAIP and On Lisp. i don't have AMOP but it's on my to-get list 07:37:02 these sound heavy :d 07:37:06 cool 07:37:11 they are 07:37:14 dmh: amop is very illuminating 07:37:38 -!- v__ [~v@114.112.255.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:37:45 oh cool its just a webpage? 07:37:52 nevermind 07:37:53 derp 07:38:03 the protocol is online 07:38:16 that's all you need if you want to use MOP in CL 07:38:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:38:34 sounds like it will be over me for some time 07:39:01 hello stassats. 07:39:08 thanks for helping me out the other day. 07:39:25 hello 07:39:26 which day? 07:39:52 hmm. maybe as many as 10 days ago 07:39:55 *stassats* doesn't recall helping dto recently 07:40:09 what was it about? 07:40:09 it was something to do with pathnames. 07:40:14 i think 07:40:24 *antifuchs* gives up on PAIP's cliki page. what do you have to do to make minion find a definition? 07:40:39 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.206] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:40:41 less acronyms? 07:40:41 stassats anyway no worries. 07:40:58 antifuchs: fix cliki so that it gives the source on ?source again 07:41:11 ah, haha 07:41:20 dto: well, you're welcome anyway (whether that was me or not) 07:41:22 yeah forget it (: 07:41:50 you can also report that to the maintainer of cliki 07:41:52 dmh: the link worked, but it's "Paradigms of AI Programming" by Norvig. 07:42:02 i keep trying to delegate that task to someone 07:42:11 right, is that not PAIP? :P 07:42:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.4.2] has joined #lisp 07:42:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.4.2] has quit [Changing host] 07:42:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:42:32 Oh, I thought you were asking for fewer acronyms. 07:42:41 ok, looks like 3b opened an issue 07:42:45 no sorry 07:43:10 https://github.com/archimag/cliki2/issues/16 07:44:42 stassats: :) 07:50:20 v__ [~v@61.173.98.232] has joined #lisp 07:51:56 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 07:57:22 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:06 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.98.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:59:22 hi 08:00:10 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:09 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:06:03 *stassats* considers what's a better way to finish a loop, which calls functions from queue, send it an uninterned symbol, denoting the end, or throw a tag from a function it calls 08:07:20 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.42.239] has left #lisp 08:08:15 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:10:02 v__ [~v@216.231.132.49] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 use the return value? 08:11:12 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 08:11:28 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:49 Hi! I'd like to create function which argument is subset of some set eg. (defun foo (bar ) (assert (member bar '(:a :b :c))) [do something]). Can slime to give me "advice" what values are available in mini buffer? 08:12:10 Can slime give me* 08:12:15 mrSpec: use keyword arguments. 08:12:15 no 08:12:31 oh wait yeah 08:13:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:13:40 ok 08:13:57 (assert (member bar '(:a :b :c))) == (check-type bar (member :a :b :c)) 08:14:36 k, but slime wont use this info :( 08:15:01 slime doesn't care about it, it's all the job of an implementation 08:15:22 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 what do you want slime to do? pop up what values are possible for a variable's type if that variable's at point? 08:15:56 Bike: I was wondering about something like this here ;) 08:16:25 is that a yes? 08:16:31 yes 08:18:39 i guess having the type pop up would be kinda neat, but you'd need to do a lot of implementation probably, like keeping everything macroexpanded and knowing enough about lexical scopes and decls to work it out 08:19:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:20:35 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:21:38 yeah, but for now user will need to read documentation ;) 08:21:56 thx anyway 08:22:40 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:22:58 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 08:23:47 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Client Quit] 08:24:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: that] 08:24:27 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 08:24:33 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Client Quit] 08:25:47 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:26:37 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 08:29:04 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:51 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:17 pisin [~pisin@node-1gd.pool-1-2.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:26 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:36:05 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:20 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:38:19 Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 08:40:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:46:50 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-61-254.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:48:26 akovalen` [~user@77.51.163.46] has joined #lisp 08:49:58 so i was thinking about it 08:50:14 I think i might like generic functions more than message sending 08:50:21 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.59.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:22 hrm have to investigate more 08:50:37 how insightful 08:50:46 -!- Hans [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:53:01 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c35e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:59 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-162-116.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:24 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 08:55:02 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:55:08 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-162-116.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-114.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:58:25 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-235-122.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:59:49 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:33 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-162-116.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:04:39 teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.73] has joined #lisp 09:04:50 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:05:09 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 09:07:51 -!- Adlai`` [~adlai@p4FC211F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:08:08 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:09:00 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:26 quazimodo: maybe you could learn to understand method combinations and *then* come back? 09:10:15 ripples [~ripples@197.87.77.195] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 with your insights, I mean. 09:12:28 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:16:23 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:38 -!- v__ [~v@216.231.132.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:17:54 am0c [~am0c@210.94.181.128] has joined #lisp 09:18:32 Hey, I'm looking to learn more about macros. I have already seen some basic examples (defining an inverted if expression that expands into an if expression), but I'm more interested in seeing a use case example that shows how lisp can use macro in a way that is not so easily replicable in other languages. Can anyone point me to any examples, tutorial, guides and/or source code that goes into 09:18:33 greater depth? 09:19:27 ripples: you mean like macros which rewrite expressions? 09:20:03 I'm not sure to be honest. 09:20:19 lemme think. 09:21:06 Like, a lot of people sing very high praises of macros, and I have looked into it a bit and can see that it is different, but I don't think I really "get" it yet. 09:21:29 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:22:03 ehu: im learning :) 09:22:03 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:04 ripples: ok. I have a macro here which calculates a number of values to be used in code expansion: http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/browser/trunk/abcl/src/org/armedbear/lisp/clos.lisp#L135 09:22:23 ehu: do you have a link to method combinations paper? 09:22:39 quazimodo: one learns by asking questions. one argues by posting statements. 09:22:51 ehu, thanks, I'll have a look 09:23:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:23:24 ehu: yeah you're probably right 09:23:43 ripples: once you get that one, take a look at this one: http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/browser/trunk/abcl/src/org/armedbear/lisp/clos.lisp#L1224 09:23:53 it defines a function local to the macro. 09:23:58 i found the gigamonkeys thing for combinations 09:24:18 then it takes its input and calculates a completely new output form. 09:25:05 quazimodo: ok. good. then, if you don't get it: post questions, not statements. 09:25:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:25:43 ehu: i'll write an irssi script to add a ? after everything in #lisp :P 09:25:59 that's a statement 09:26:26 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:28:35 v__ [~v@61.173.98.232] has joined #lisp 09:31:41 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 09:34:58 pierpa [~user@95.234.223.231] has joined #lisp 09:36:36 ripples: is taht what you were looking for? 09:39:20 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:43 I think it is, but to be honest I feel I need to take a few steps back and get to more to grips with the rest of the langauge first. The examples I saw before were a lot simpler and part of a "evangelist" kind of lecture. So for now I'll focus my learning on lisp in general instead of just trying to see what macro's are all about. 09:39:54 snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba61b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:46 ripples: very good. in general the rule of thumb is not to turn to macros if it can be done with functions. 09:41:15 xani [~user@178.183.130.158.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 09:41:41 ripples: which means: don't use macros for simple inlining tasks. that can be done by declaring functions 'inline'. 09:41:53 That makes sense. 09:41:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:42:11 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:27 Thanks for the help by the way :) 09:43:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:44:15 welcome. 09:45:58 pierpa` [~user@host52-219-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 -!- pierpa [~user@95.234.223.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:49:03 -!- pisin [~pisin@node-1gd.pool-1-2.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:49:34 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:52:32 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:55:58 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 10:00:12 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:01 what is your preferred "ignore next sexp" trick? for example "#+t" works, and it is short! 10:02:25 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:02:52 -!- am0c [~am0c@210.94.181.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:03:44 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:03:56 nan_: M-k 10:05:09 hagish [~hagish@p4FC0F84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:32 daimrod: but that kills it, you want it stay there for reference, or say you want to try something else. 10:06:14 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:26 nan_: (push t *features*) 10:06:36 nan_: /me likes #+nil 10:06:37 #+t (ignore this bit) 10:06:45 doesn't work 10:06:49 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lkohcmibrvnnohnc] has joined #lisp 10:06:55 ehu: well that is why i am asking, i was after something foolproof 10:07:15 #-(and) 10:07:17 #+(or) 10:07:17 nan_: It's still is the kill-ring if I want it back, and if I want to try something bigger than a sexp I make a branch (git-branch). 10:07:25 ah. yea. 10:07:28 #+(or) 10:07:32 I forget whichever. 10:07:38 (I usually comment out) 10:07:55 stassats: <3 10:13:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:13:43 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 10:15:05 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:18:04 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:19:19 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lkohcmibrvnnohnc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:22:05 pierpa`` [~user@host254-220-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:23:40 -!- snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba61b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:25:34 am0c [~am0c@210.94.181.128] has joined #lisp 10:25:39 -!- pierpa` [~user@host52-219-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:55 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:12 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:58 segv- [~mb@dslb-092-078-122-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:32:08 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:34:21 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:41:39 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:46:58 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 10:47:54 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 10:48:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:53:20 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:54:01 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 10:54:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@210.94.181.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:54:54 who wants to watch a lisp video, feat. interactive restarts? 10:56:31 who doesn't! 10:56:32 me 10:56:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur0pNQiuKjo 11:00:12 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:03:55 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:05:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:06:45 cool 11:08:22 hmmm my first ever inconvenience about CL's case-(in)sensitivity, i want to name functions such as "set-Q-x" "set-R-x" Q and R being the mathematical identifiers in a given context, it works fine but when i want to tab-complete a function with slime, slime asks me to write it lowercase 11:10:06 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ronwpkjgpotwelys] has joined #lisp 11:10:08 nan_, I'll give it 45 seconds before someone says "CL is not case insensitive" and "you can do |foo|" and "you can poke at the readtable" 11:10:09 stassats: too short, show us how you debug! 11:10:42 ck`` [~user@p50864993.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:05 nan_: in slime 11:12:46 this thing in the video is not ready for consumption yet 11:13:12 Quadrescence: i know about that one but it is a bit ugly :) 11:14:29 you should've used set--x and set--x 11:15:30 stassats: i know you are joking but they look kind of sweet 11:17:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:19:38 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 11:24:34 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.98.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:26:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:26:05 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ronwpkjgpotwelys] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:05 nan_: fix the completion function. also, emacs's TeX IME makes that almost practical. 11:26:30 TeX IME sometimes screws with paredit 11:26:34 i forgot how though 11:27:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:30:51 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:31:00 Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:15 knob [~knob@adsl-173-228-216-117.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:03 pkhuong: emacs tab complete gives the right one when it can see it but slime i think (just speculating here) tab completes with reflection and lose the case information unless it is not |...| 11:32:31 unless it is |...|* 11:33:39 somewhat related, it's kind of annoying to write physics code without T 11:34:54 nan_: slime's completion is a program that can be improved. 11:34:57 i am writing physics code Quadrescence, i agree but i got used to it 11:35:40 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 11:36:17 Quadrescence: I'm always conflicted about using variable "names" directly from papers or equations, versus using meaningful identifiers. 11:36:19 i don't see how can you improve it so that it knows your intended case 11:36:55 stassats: it could try case folding if there's no/few match. 11:37:45 v__ [~v@61.173.102.10] has joined #lisp 11:38:20 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:45 that's if you use escaping, as i understand it, nan_ doesn't want to escape 11:39:05 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:04 pkhuong, unfortunately sometimes either variables don't have meaningful names or you get: (* (expt vertical-turn-radius 3) (/ pi) (sqrt (/ (- 1 (expt vertical-turn-radius 2))) )) 11:40:31 stassats: I don't think that's it. What I see is that, for instance mak-In[tab] won't complete to make-instance, while make-in[tab] will. 11:45:53 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:53 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:46:38 i am not sure if this is practical but it could check to source directly for type information since it knows exactly where it is (slime-edit-definition) 11:47:33 nan_: it just completes symbols 11:47:43 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 11:47:53 if it started to look at definitions, it'd be really slow 11:48:11 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p57B9AE9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:48:14 yeh that is the "practical" part :) 11:49:10 one last thing is, just save type information for a function as you save file:line 11:49:25 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-173-228-216-117.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:32 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:49:54 knob [~knob@adsl-173-228-216-117.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:58 -!- ck`` [~user@p50864993.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 11:52:08 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-47-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:00:12 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 12:03:56 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:04:07 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:05:21 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iiakgxogvzyyveud] has joined #lisp 12:06:40 s/type/case/ and if it sounded like i was ordering, it wasn't my intention 12:08:57 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 12:09:01 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:09:26 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:01 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:54 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:26:39 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.5.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:30:15 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:34:00 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 12:38:43 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 12:42:08 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gsiqmudcoqupopcu] has joined #lisp 12:42:19 sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:46:47 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ouuyfcsfadpjgjpd] has joined #lisp 12:47:43 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.5.29] has joined #lisp 12:54:37 dfghjklrtyui [dfghjklrty@93.152.149.84] has joined #lisp 12:57:13 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:47 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:32 *Xach* finds himself wishing for a CL json pretty-printer 13:00:14 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:29 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.231] has joined #lisp 13:04:19 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:42 Xach: shouldn't be too hard to create, right? 13:06:24 probably not. 13:06:35 I wouldn't mind learning the pretty-printer in detail someday. 13:10:29 *stassats* discovers some problems with (probably) drakma on sbcl 13:10:34 the reply is somehow cut-off 13:10:46 *stassats* dives in 13:13:54 and not just sbcl 13:14:51 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 13:15:50 *stassats* hopes not to DOS launchpad while testing 13:16:58 stassats: ieh 13:16:59 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 13:17:04 greetings guys!! 13:18:26 Xach: pp-json in https://github.com/trebb/phoros/blob/master/indent-json.lisp might be interesting 13:18:48 bhyde: thanks 13:18:52 having used the pretty printer the key to finding examples it to search for pprint-logical-block 13:18:59 heh 13:19:05 :) 13:19:25 using the pretty printer (which I've done to format C code) will make you tear your hair out though 13:19:31 it's quite puzzling, content-type is the same as the length of the string, but it's not the same as the one i get from curl 13:19:49 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-avtfzhysbggrlkji] has joined #lisp 13:21:16 stassats: let me know if i can help 13:21:39 yeah, once i figure out what's going on 13:22:03 H4ns: ABCL trunk should be able to handle CXML-STP. 13:23:18 bhyde: i wonder if it's the same class of hair-tearing as the package system, pathname system, or logical pathnames 13:23:33 bhyde: i.e. stuff that people moan about but that I seem to like... 13:23:56 ehu: that'll serve me well, thanks. i'm going to write a xml->excel converter next week or so 13:24:16 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.175.139] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 H4ns: ok. let me know if you find any more problems. 13:25:12 definitely, at least that was my experience. once you get in the zone, and you become sympathetic with the design you become cheerful, even delighted; but getting into the zone is a struggle  and then you forget :) 13:25:32 bhyde: ha, that makes a lot of sense 13:25:32 ehu: sure, thanks. the biggest issue is that of deployability, but that is something that i don't expect a fast solution for. 13:26:01 we fixed xpath last weekend (the failing cxml-stp dependency). This weekend we fixed cl-cont (and thereby weblocks) 13:26:44 H4ns: that's something I miss as well. In addition, I miss build system integration. 13:26:52 how do you handle that? 13:27:39 ehu: i don't quite know - for now, i'm running the stuff from the repl. 13:28:03 ehu: but i'll try asdf-jar and my custom load-file logger next week 13:28:28 Xach: it's also a bit like graphviz in that your often thinking "eh what, why did you do that?"  but nowhere as bad  but like graphviz you get pretty output and that's always fun 13:28:38 I've been using the "load-fasl-or-compile" function inside the app so far. 13:28:57 but that's not practical. 13:30:13 I've been contemplating creation of an Ant task. 13:30:15 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:54 mmmmhhh 13:31:45 i am sharing code with the sbcl stuff that i write, so i want to build with asdf 13:32:09 I think i may have asked this before, but I can't find my logs. what's the general reason people who use lisp haven't attempted to use an indentation based syntax, rather than solely bracket based? 13:32:29 or maybe it's a problem with cl+ssl 13:32:51 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:33:30 quazimodo: :) 13:33:53 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:49 H4ns: ok. the ant task I was envisaging was indeed not about using ASDF, however, I think the ant task could trigger asdf compilation, right? 13:35:41 since it looks very weird, i would bet that this are those trivial-gray-streams changes 13:35:49 ehu: sure - well, i don't really know what ant is so i don't really know how to discuss further :) 13:36:09 ah :-) ok. well, Ant is "make" for Java 13:36:39 ehu: yeah, right. that's what i use asdf for :D 13:36:40 except that make uses shell commands and Ant wants commands implemented in java. 13:37:16 well, let's work together on any issues you find in asdf-jar. 13:37:31 I'll want easier deployment as well. 13:37:36 reverting trivial-gray-streams fixes the problem 13:37:41 hopefully our paths coincide. 13:37:41 *stassats* wins the bet 13:37:43 -!- xani [~user@178.183.130.158.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:12 ehu: one problem with asdf-jar is that it fails to detect files that are used at read-time (i.e. #.(load ...) in .asd files) 13:38:35 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-092-078-122-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:27 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwrmawwqtbrefpqd] has joined #lisp 13:39:36 in sbcl manual it says "Declaiming a structure constructor inline before definition makes stack allocation possible" is this sbcl specific or portable (i know some declarations are just hints for compiler)? 13:40:12 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:41:01 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:42:04 H4ns: since it's an abcl extension, that could be addressed. However, let's assume we can "cough up" a list of files that were accessed during asdf compilation. What could/should we do with that list? 13:42:34 should those files be packaged as well? 13:42:58 ehu: as far as i understand, that list of files would be those files that would be needed to load the same systems from a packaged jar, using asdf 13:43:42 ehu: so the purpose would be creating a jar that contained everything to load a certain asdf system, including all dependencies. 13:43:43 do you have an example of an asd definition which uses that trick? 13:43:54 sure, wait 13:44:02 (might help me understand what I'm up against) 13:44:15 now to figure why the hell trivial-gray-streams is broken 13:44:45 ehu: bordeaux-threads uses not #.(load, but #.(with-open-file 13:45:29 ehu: drakma, fiveam, hunchentoot, lparallel and cl-postgres all use #. in some way that may cause problems with asdf-jar as well 13:45:35 dioxirane: i don't get it 13:46:21 quazimodo: i guess someone tried, but not enough people were convinced that the idea was brilliant 13:46:54 loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:47:07 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.175.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:47:39 this is the second problem with cl+ssl and trivial-gray-streams, this one is much more subtle 13:48:11 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:23 and this version is in quicklisp 13:48:28 *stassats* is disappointed 13:48:30 :( 13:48:55 there will be a new quicklisp release, so all it takes is to fix the bugs :) 13:49:16 H4ns: thanks. that's a lot :-( 13:49:31 H4ns: but it can mess up your data 13:49:43 if you fetch some large texts over https 13:50:25 stassats: yes, that's bad, but it is water under the bridge. how can i help isolating the problem? 13:50:27 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:50:50 H4ns: ok. so, basically, we need to record which files are being opened succesfully. 13:51:03 i'll dig into more detail after i watch this bycicle race 13:51:10 :D 13:52:16 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:53:06 ehu: the question is whether it is really worth it - maybe it is easier to just put all asdf systems into a jar, and put the .abcl fiels into a second file tree to use as the compilation cache 13:53:31 (and put that second file tree into a second jar, or into the same jar) 13:53:36 actually, 13:53:53 this can be solved easier, maybe. 13:54:15 what about storing the forms read from the ASD files? 13:54:24 in the repository as the new ASD file? 13:54:34 that resolves any #. macros 13:55:04 pw_ [uid2072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbfwpvmezcujjldn] has joined #lisp 13:55:18 and it ensures the same forms will be read from the jar as that were read while compiling into the jar. 13:55:34 how does that sound? 13:55:37 i'm not sure. i'm in favor of simple solutions. 13:56:06 a jar with src/ and cache/ sounds rather straightforward. 13:56:07 ok. let me check a few of the others. 13:56:30 nan_: what get's inlined, and what gets stack allocated varies from compiler to compiler, the declarations are only a way for the code's author to license the activity and signal that he will deal with the consequences should the compiler exercise that license 13:57:19 *stassats* would bet on some off-by one error 13:58:23 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:35 -!- pw_ [uid2072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbfwpvmezcujjldn] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:10 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:59:23 pw_ [uid2072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ntaukxerjslxxfcz] has joined #lisp 13:59:28 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has left #lisp 14:00:13 bhyde: thanks, i was mostly asking if the quoted statement comes from CL spec (which i couldn't find) or sbcl only 14:00:19 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:32 nm. 14:01:50 nan_: sbcl, i read that statement as a aside intended to warn the reader that they don't stack allocate structure absent the inline declaration, since that might surprise some people 14:03:53 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:00 bhyde: *cheers thanks again 14:07:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:08:56 -!- pw_ [uid2072@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ntaukxerjslxxfcz] has left #lisp 14:09:19 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:20 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:44 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:48 why is getf called getf and not get-prop or something like that? 14:19:43 *quazimodo* wonders what getf stands for 14:19:46 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:42 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:47 H4ns: asdf-jar seems to package both source and fasls. 14:22:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:22:51 maxm-: log4cl no longer works with SBCL 14:22:52 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:06 maxm-: it looks like sb-c::hairy-arg-processor has been renamed or moved or removed 14:23:52 but indeed it's not recognizing the need for version-expr 14:25:20 quazimodo: setf means "set field", thus getf could maybe stand for "get field" 14:26:00 *Xach* logs https://github.com/7max/log4cl/issues/7 14:26:42 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:38 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:30:21 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:55 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:37:20 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:38:12 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:37 Asgeir: ya i guesed it might be field 14:40:04 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 14:45:23 -!- mtd__ is now known as mtd 14:45:57 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 14:46:45 *Xach* wonders how many library failures are due to sbcl and how many are due to other stuff 14:46:58 *Xach* should have tested prerelease sbcl when Krystof said to do that :( 14:49:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:22 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:59:57 *stassats* was this -><- close to loading lparell, but didn't 15:00:20 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:47 Why use #. in a .asd file? 15:03:48 -!- CrazyEddy [~nitrohydr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:10 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:04:12 if for version numbers, I recommend asdf3's :read-file-form mechanism. 15:06:54 pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:22 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:11:06 -!- pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 15:11:19 ehu: H4ns: That's basically what we did when forced to combine asdf and .lpr 15:15:54 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:16:38 what's .lpr ? 15:17:11 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:17:32 kmox83 [~kmox83@bband-dyn182.95-103-100.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 15:21:11 protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:22:18 pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:51 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ouuyfcsfadpjgjpd] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:24:34 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@bband-dyn182.95-103-100.t-com.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:24:58 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 15:26:01 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:47 -!- pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 15:30:23 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:24 Halite [~HaliteBir@unaffiliated/octagonfly] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 is there a lisp bot 15:32:02 Halite: several 15:32:08 !help 15:32:39 Halite: What's up? 15:32:54 I've not heard of Lisp before, but when I made an esoteric programming language with an interpreter in JS, they said it was remarkably like Lisp 15:33:11 they who? 15:33:25 they = people in #esoteric 15:34:09 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:35:02 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 15:35:05 CrazyEddy [~lexicogra@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:37:38 ok, found the bug in cl+ssl 15:38:00 it's actually not trivial-gray-streams fault, just the changes uncovered it 15:38:47 puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:39:45 and the fix works 15:39:57 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:45 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:42:41 Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:48 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 15:46:39 -!- loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:52 ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has joined #lisp 15:48:06 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 hooray 15:49:02 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:45 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:50:38 and gitorious is really clunky 15:51:15 here's the fix: https://gitorious.org/cl-plus-ssl/stassatss-cl-plus-ssl/commit/dc5d498117525ee18ff3e907e763188ae26e9e5a/diffs/b3577ede318fc5dd74716ecd2152044dae04495b 15:51:51 a better view: https://gitorious.org/~stassats/cl-plus-ssl/stassatss-cl-plus-ssl/commit/b3577ede318fc5dd74716ecd2152044dae04495b 15:56:52 -!- sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:00:23 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:35 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:01:10 *stassats* tries to decide whom to blame, antonv for uncovering the bug, or _8david` for putting it there 16:03:06 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:04:15 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:05:55 In CL are there any standard ways to insert formatting information into docstrings? Formatting like emphasis and line-breaks? 16:06:06 no 16:06:12 Or are they supposed to just be flat text. 16:06:32 yes 16:06:51 And line breaks that I do put in docstrings are just turned into spaces - correct? 16:06:56 you get EMPHASIS and #\Newline 16:07:04 drmeister: incorrect 16:07:42 Wait, I can use #\Newline? 16:08:01 who told you that you can't? 16:10:16 I was guessing. So I can use any of the #\xxx where xxx are listed in CLHS 13.1.7 within docstrings. 16:10:32 Because docstrings are read in as regular strings by the CL reader - got it. 16:10:44 you're misunderstanding me, docstrings are strings 16:11:57 drmeister, they are just strings which means that only backslash (\) is special. 16:12:39 you can put literal strings, as in hitting Return 16:12:50 not literally putting #\Newline 16:12:54 Right - and strings can contain #\Newline or #\Tab or #\Space and the other less useful character names in CLHS 13.1.7 16:13:12 no, 13.1.7 has nothing to do with it 16:13:21 clhs 13.1.7 16:13:21 Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm 16:13:44 Oh, so #\Newline doesn't mean anything within a string - got it - sorry to be so dense. 16:14:09 The character string "#\Newline" is not like "\n" in C. 16:14:13 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 16:14:38 it's not 16:18:01 qzi [~user@58.253.173.112] has joined #lisp 16:18:52 Alright - I just read 2.4.5 again - got it. 16:22:16 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:39 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:27:00 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:36:25 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@95.236.103.126] has joined #lisp 16:36:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38:55 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:46 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:44:49 maybe would be nice write a lisp interface to NCBI/BLAST 16:45:25 yep get the fasta format spec 16:46:09 and if you have myslq working on your backen......weeeheeeeeeee 16:46:37 but you need terabytes of memory for storing them locally....mind you..... 16:47:04 last time i looked the seqs were somewhere around more then 500GB 16:48:02 tho only text ...... 16:48:47 or just fetch the ones you need...... 16:49:20 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:02 sellout-1 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:31 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:52:47 walter [~walter@ip-64-134-100-17.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:51 lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-192-51-115.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 16:55:52 I had not followed the trivial-gray-stream changes until now. I wonder if the change is too sudden? In a bug-free world it's backward-compatible, but in reality it's not. 16:56:11 That is, what are the consequences of activating all this untested code? 16:56:47 I would give people time to enable the code on their own. 16:56:48 *dim* waves to lmj` then goes off to cooking, see you guys :) 17:00:23 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:26 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:30 lmj`: you should try to be a better beta tester! :) 17:02:00 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:05 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:04:18 -!- hagish [~hagish@p4FC0F84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:05:29 Well there's also the unknown number of private projects that may be affected. 17:06:43 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:55 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 17:10:31 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:10:54 nan_: use auto-complete-mode 17:11:03 lmj`: the changes are ok, but the problem is the lack of releases 17:11:33 stable releases... 17:11:49 -!- akovalen` [~user@77.51.163.46] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:12:12 i usually use everything from git upstreams, and i would have caught it, as i did, and fixed it, and be merry 17:13:04 but this change got into quicklisp, and we had some very strange problems due that in production, which are hard to reproduce 17:13:32 and luckily, i accidentally reproduced it today independently 17:14:08 stassats`: I'm sure the t-g-s changes themselves are OK. I'm concerned about the untested/unused code that will suddenly be activated in other projects. 17:14:37 There isn't any downside to letting maintainers catch up at their own pace. 17:14:44 It's just an opimization, after all. 17:15:24 that's what i'm talking too, if there were releases, and this change was only in git, quicklisp wouldn't have got a bad version 17:15:47 and other authors, which hopefully test against latest stuff, would have caught it 17:15:53 before the release, that is 17:15:56 Ah yes. something like debian-unstable for quicklisp. 17:16:44 "testing" , not "unstable"... 17:17:20 and that's partially the reason why i don't use quicklisp 17:17:35 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:38 i want the bleeding edge, so i get to catch the bugs 17:17:54 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:19:03 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:19:19 ... bleeding edge == "current" 17:19:27 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:37 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:21:41 But a staging area like 'unstable' would be useful too, since authors can't test all combinations. 17:24:13 lmj`: but a "stable" 'area' is not like a stable "equilibrium" :) 17:24:22 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:24:50 The problem is that there's a "virtual" change to every project that depends upon t-g-s, without the author's consent. 17:24:55 stable is like 20 year old lisp libs that still work 17:28:26 kmox83 [~kmox83@adsl-dyn222.78-98-28.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 17:29:12 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:35 stassats`: I would also blame misuse of git. If quicklisp points master, then master should be treated as the release branch, with latest changes pushed to a dev branch. 17:31:39 ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 that way there's less of a chance to get it tested 17:33:03 here the problems is also because the change went live just a day or two before the quicklisp release, so it got too little testing 17:33:47 akovalenko [~user@77.51.163.46] has joined #lisp 17:33:55 xani [~user@178.183.130.158.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 17:34:22 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:34:28 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:40 furthermore I think that CLiki it's enought clear about t-g-s so I do not see any "problem" 17:34:56 dioxirane: can you be irrelevant somewhere else, please? 17:35:50 stassats`: it's only a my humble opinion.. 17:36:03 but sure, maybe it's irrelevant 17:36:03 stassats`: right, I mentioned the possibility of an 'unstable' quicklisp just as a way to automate what you do locally. 17:36:33 dioxirane: if you don't have anything intelligent to say, just don't say anything 17:36:44 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 17:36:56 'slowlisp' -- fetch from bleeding edge of sources 17:37:10 stassats`: you're ridicolous now! 17:37:27 adrenalisp 17:37:40 adrenalisp: be on the edge 17:37:46 -!- wc [~a@173.254.255.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:38:28 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:35 'slowlisp' wouldn't use cached snapshots, but download from latest changes from each original source. 17:38:53 lmj`, stassats` : I like that idea. Like debian testing 17:39:14 yes I said 'unstable' before, but I meant 'testing' 17:39:35 *stassats`* thinks about aggregating daily changes to upstream repositories 17:40:17 which you can review and decide if your library/program needs to be tested against them 17:40:28 well, I would not mind having stable run one month behind testing. 17:40:51 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-350-209.w83-115.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:41 antonv's test-grid is nice, but it doesn't test daily from upstream repositories 17:42:26 It doesn't test daily implementations 17:42:45 But that can be addressed 17:43:01 I was going to suggest adding a 'dev branch' field in the quicklisp metadata, but without a real git client in CL it would be flaky. 17:44:03 comprehensive daily testing and reviewing facility would be great 17:44:20 on different platforms, implementations, etc. 17:45:59 lmj`: your last idea is great, if Xach is agree... 17:46:53 maybe with the chance to install the stable or the dev/testing version of the same package 17:47:25 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:49:04 ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has joined #lisp 17:50:21 if you were to pick a single year to represent a school year (eg 2012-2013) would you use the beginning or ending year, and why? 17:51:45 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:53:04 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:35 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:53:49 stassats`: it may not be hard to build your own dist and automate it. (ql:update-dist "stassats"). 17:54:07 ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has joined #lisp 17:54:11 Armenia [Armenia@188.115.246.206] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 hik 17:54:17 hi] 17:55:31 wc [~a@173.254.255.83] has joined #lisp 17:55:54 -!- wc is now known as Guest16943 17:56:12 lmj`: sure, (ql:update-* ) is very useful... 17:56:56 ..even for the upgrading.. 17:57:57 -!- walter [~walter@ip-64-134-100-17.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:00:24 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:02:15 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 18:04:23 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:04:32 przl_ [~przlrkt@p5B2986CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2981FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:08:13 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:21 ezakimak: do you think a know-all is smarter than a dumb? 18:09:22 ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has joined #lisp 18:09:39 ? 18:11:36 ezakimak: don't pay attention to dioxirane, he's usually saying all kind of inane things 18:11:41 ql:update-dist may be overthinking. All that's really needed is to automate fetching to ~/quicklisp/local-projects. A single command could update the whole local-projects directory. 18:11:55 -!- qzi [~user@58.253.173.112] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:08 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:12:19 i'm just wondering if one year makes any more sense than the other, and asked here because generally lisp devs have excellent taste 18:13:33 :) ok! 18:14:45 ezakimak: stassats` is ridicolous... 18:15:33 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:46 that's now three messages from you that contribute nothing 18:15:57 hagish [~hagish@p4FC0F84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:23 ezakimak: the problem is more complex. In the South Hemisphere, I'd bet the school year starts in Mars, and ends in December, so it's over a single year. At university level, in some countries, it works by "semesters" or "quarters". 18:16:25 tree, more like a hundred 18:17:02 :) know-all 18:17:03 my problem domain is specific to USA 18:17:18 so typical public k-12 school year spanning the new year 18:17:18 who's gwking ? 18:17:29 garry king 18:17:45 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:51 cool 18:17:51 or gary king 18:17:52 but if it fit entirely within the calendar year, that'd be an easy answer 18:18:06 i just sent him an email 18:18:16 wbooze: thanks for letting us know 18:18:18 If you need a single number, then the year of the start of the period is probably the best. 18:18:32 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:18:51 but, then i think about the graduating class, "class of 2013"--their last school year is 2012-2013 18:19:14 well, they graduated in 2013 18:19:32 ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has joined #lisp 18:19:35 i can see arguments either way, and think it's probably arbitrary, but wonder if there is a good reason to pick one over the other 18:19:38 ezakimak: It's up to you to do the analysis of your problem. In lisp we would just use (2012 2013). 18:19:56 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:20:05 i'm thinking of data storage--and having a single integer for indexing 18:20:13 Use 20122013. 18:20:29 that would work 18:21:07 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:22 (+ (* 10000 start) end) 18:22:00 but if you chose a consistent number, it wouldn't matter, you can display 2013 as 2012-2013 18:22:08 and (multiple-value-bind (start end) (truncate index 10000) ) 18:22:18 consistent like a lol 18:22:57 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:12 thanks for the help and suggestions 18:23:59 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.98.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:24:38 ezakimak: you may want to read http://unix4lyfe.org/time/ http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time http://infiniteundo.com/post/25509354022/more-falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time-wisdom 18:24:38 18:26:20 those falsehoods are useless, they don't explain why things are false 18:26:50 i've read them before 18:27:02 Obviously because there exists instances contradicting them. 18:27:52 i don't see how i'd be affected by any of them in the problem i'm currently solving 18:28:16 ncw [~ncw@host86-143-115-152.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 use floats, 2012.5 18:28:42 Use ratios 2012/2013 18:29:12 use complex numbers #c(2012 2013) 18:29:14 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:22 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:29:23 Yes, better. 18:29:28 speeder [~needhelp@201.81.173.208] has joined #lisp 18:29:32 do i need to withdraw my comment about lispers having good taste? ;) 18:30:00 Well complexes of fixnums are efficient and elegant. 18:30:24 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:53 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 18:34:28 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:36:02 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:05 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:36:52 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:39:50 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:04 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 pjb: why not extend the reasoning regarding hte complexes using the Clifford algebra?... 18:42:10 anyway for the fixnums exists an extension? 18:43:35 -!- speeder [~needhelp@201.81.173.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:40 speeder_ [~needhelp@201.81.173.208] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 Was *print-circle* expensive during olden times? I'm wondering why it's not set in with-standard-io-syntax, since setting *print-readably* would seem to imply *print-circle*. 18:45:34 *print-circle* is expensive now too 18:45:43 archonix [~none@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 18:45:58 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:20 and it produces less than desirable results for a human reader 18:46:40 hyperreal numbers are not fixnums... 18:47:29 -!- xani [~user@178.183.130.158.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:11 what is the ethymology fixnum?? 18:48:38 A number that fits in a fixed amount of memory, or can be fixed in a register, or something. 18:48:52 mmm, thx Bike 18:51:44 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:08 -!- Armenia [Armenia@188.115.246.206] has left #lisp 18:55:51 -!- ripples [~ripples@197.87.77.195] has quit [] 18:56:09 `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 18:57:06 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-350-209.w83-115.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:57:33 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:22 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 how comes something like a hard-coded pathname like c:\nppdf32Log/debuglog.txt remains in lisp images ? 18:59:04 i grepped all my sources for nppdf nothing is there..... 18:59:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:27 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:38 -!- protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:03:21 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:06:04 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:24 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 19:06:46 wbooze: what are you talking about ? 19:07:19 sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 mayve *print-circle* is less sxpensive than the Gauss circle problem! 19:07:30 wbooze: it may be a buffer, or an ungarbagged value. 19:08:02 (locally (declare (safety 0)) (make-array 1024 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) ; may give your surprises. 19:08:36 fenix: i got the cmucl from git built.....but somehow the binary for bootstrapping it seems to leave somethings....or so.... 19:09:07 dioxirane: well, the question would rather be why an implementation wouldn't optimize (defstruct sy s e) as efficiently as (complex s e). 19:09:46 dioxirane: FIXed length NUMbers. 19:09:58 vs. BIG length NUMbers. 19:09:59 Oh, I nearly got it. 19:10:42 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:10:52 Well, that's my guess. Some archeology would be required. 19:11:00 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:11:22 archeology is an awesome matter 19:12:26 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:20 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 19:14:11 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.252] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 -!- ncw [~ncw@host86-143-115-152.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:47 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@95.236.103.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:02 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:16:54 -!- CrazyEddy [~lexicogra@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18:51 I'm having trouble with the slime debugger in clozure... 19:19:33 the debugger displays local variables correctly, but when you try to evaluate one of them, it says "Unbound variable" 19:20:04 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:18 I've (declaim (optimize debug))'d 19:21:48 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-cihlesfhyoadecud] has joined #lisp 19:22:06 ncw [~ncw@host86-143-115-152.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 cddr: have you the same problem with a different lisp implementation and the same lisp code? 19:23:08 -!- kmox83 [~kmox83@adsl-dyn222.78-98-28.t-com.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:23:22 cddr: this may be a problem of package. Is you variable x or some-package::x ? 19:24:02 It's just a local (let ((foo)) (break "~a" foo)) 19:24:10 cddr: Also, you must of course evaluate your expression in the frame where the variable is visible. 19:24:59 cddr: notice that it's evaluated with cheap-eval: (ccl::cheap-eval (let ((foo)) (break "~a" foo))) 19:25:24 It implements some shortcuts to avoid having to compile it, so you don't get the fullbenefit of the debugger :-( 19:25:42 Try it on a real function. 19:25:55 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@p5B2986CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:26:08 When someone writes a foreign function interface for CL to a C-library that person foreign function interface is then tied to a particular C compiler - correct? The FFI is must mimic the specific layout of structs that are generated by the specific C compiler. Is that correct? 19:26:14 yeah, one stack-frame, I can evaluate them 19:26:30 s/stack-frame/stack-frame down/ 19:26:39 drmeister: nope. because all the C compiler on a given system respect the same ABI. 19:26:45 drmeister: this is not the case for C++ compilers. 19:27:12 thanks pjb 19:27:18 drmeister: but assuming different C compilers lay out structures differently, yes, you're right. 19:27:28 Ok, got it. 19:29:24 Is it in the C++ standard that they may or may not lay out structures in the same way that they are laid out by a C compiler? Is it that if the struct is defined within an extern "C" context that they will match the layout of all C compilers on the system and if outside it is implementation dependent? 19:29:32 drmeister: also in theory, you could have indeed a C compiler with a different ABI on a given system, and therefore you would have to have FFI from this compiler to libraries compiled with other C compilers, and from Lisp, we would have to deal with different kinds of libraries, indeed. 19:29:45 I'll just google it. 19:30:21 drmeister: The compiler can store the virtual pointer anywhere it wants. 19:30:27 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:33 clang guys have some articles about how they do nice optimization taking advantage of the flexibility allowed by the C and C++ specifications, but also how this breaks "unportable" programs. 19:30:51 How do you plan to do virtual function calls? Track all indexes of virtual functions, find the virtual table, etc? 19:31:02 drmeister: I don't think ABIs are part of the language standards? 19:31:20 No, indeed. It's a convention. 19:31:37 cddr - no help, but 'e (aka eval in frame) works fine in CCL 1.9 for me 19:31:44 That said, given that C is just an assembler, they have little reason to stray away from the common ABI. 19:32:06 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2986CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:53 lmj': virtual function calls are handled by the C++ compiler. I also implemented a SINGLE-DISPATCH-GENERIC-FUNCTION that is like a GENERIC-FUNCTION but dispatches on a single argument, only on that arguments class and doesn't have before/after/etc methods. 19:33:10 cddr - are you using slime or something more native to ccl? 19:33:30 drmeister: you're translating to C++ and using the C++ compiler, like how ECL translates to C? 19:33:31 S-D-G-F's are only used to handle C++ single dispatch. 19:33:45 CrazyEddy [~verascope@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:33:47 lmj`: Nope - I generate native code using LLVM. 19:34:21 Just-in-time compilation on the fly - no calling out to external compilers/linkers/whatevers. 19:34:24 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:34:37 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 19:34:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:35:48 -!- Halite [~HaliteBir@unaffiliated/octagonfly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:37 sorry drmeister : have you a DRCS / DVCS for your project? if yes can you post the link? 19:37:47 -!- wws [wws@clozure-3870E161.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:37:53 What's a DRCS/DVCS? 19:38:31 drmeister: the source code is available? 19:38:46 -!- wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-207.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:39:14 drmeister, git? 19:39:35 Not yet. I'm hoping to put this up on github within a month. 19:39:44 not even internally? 19:40:03 -!- CrazyEddy [~verascope@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:40:04 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:09 drmeister: what does "handled by the C++ compiler" mean, then? 19:41:16 -!- speeder_ is now known as speeder 19:43:15 lmj`: I'm not sure how else to describe it. Are you familiar with the boost::python library? 19:43:39 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-207.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-207.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:43:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:44:01 -!- `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:51 drmeister: Given a C++ library that is already compiled, how do you call a virtual function from CL? You would have to know where the virtual pointer is stored, and the index of the virtual function in the virtual table, and the demangling rules, and probably other things. 19:45:22 Things that only the C++ compiler knows, so you have to call it. 19:47:38 lmj`: Turns out that you don't need that stuff - you just need the library header files and you create an interface in C++ with the template functions that I wrote and the C++ compiler generates the wrapper functions that are compiled and linked to the library. 19:48:29 I mean you don't need to worry about that stuff - I let the C++ compiler deal with all those issues. I didn't even know where the virtual table was stored by Clang in C++ classes until a couple of weeks ago. 19:48:52 I still don't know how the vtable is structured - don't need to. 19:49:15 What about the templates? 19:49:29 pjb: Hmmm? What about what templates? 19:49:48 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:48 the templete functions... maybe 19:49:51 drmeister: maybe so, but what if your library is compiled with a different C++ compiler than the one you're using to generate your calls? 19:49:55 Take a library that publishes a template. How do you instanciate it at the REPL? 19:50:16 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 -!- archonix [~none@78.90.30.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:54 pjb: I'm not sure how I would do that. Templates are like CL macros (sort of like IRS tax forms are poetry) - they are compile time things. 19:51:16 for example: template f(std::vector); Now, at the REPL I want to write (f (convert-to "std::vector" #(1 2 3))) ; what if std::vector is not compiled in? 19:51:18 pjb: I can interface to functions generated by templates but I can only use C++ templates in C++ code. 19:51:38 Of course, in practice it's much more complex. 19:52:01 pjb: Ugh - that looks nasty - I can't do that. I don't think you can do that with an FFI either. 19:52:28 drmeister: if so, you don't have a FFI between CL and C++ libraries. (C++ libraries DO use templates in their API!, only C libraries avoid them). 19:53:02 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 19:53:02 Again, take for example, clang. It's has a full-featured C++ library, and a cindex library that maps only a few feature to a C API. 19:53:34 drmeister: I realize you don't need that information if you can get it implicitly through other information. In either case we have to feed information into CL. Making a SWIG-like wrapper isn't as elegant as calling directly, though. 19:53:47 pjb: That's debatable. I've created a very comprehensive CL interface to the C++ LLVM library and I've written a compiler with it. 19:53:53 drmeister: you could do something like that if you called the C++ compiler at run-time, and dynamically linked the resulting binary into the application. 19:53:55 That's worth something. 19:54:12 Yes, you can always hack things, out of generality. 19:54:28 shimming it through the C ABI 19:55:22 then you need a C++ compiler on stand-by to create the C++ wrappers as C code. 19:56:13 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-cihlesfhyoadecud] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:56:19 pjb: You are correct and when I create an interface to the Clang library I'll be able to do that without calling out to an external C++ compiler - that's a very interesting idea - thanks. That would blow existing FFI's out of the water. 19:58:16 Although my personal interests in this compiler is not to compete with existing CL implementations or anything like that. That's not why I wrote this. 19:58:29 drmeister: otherwise, you may consider sharing the code early, so that interested partis may code-review it, and perhaps even contribute ;-) 19:59:05 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 20:00:00 pjb: I want to get CLOS working and we need to clean up the build system and extract all the non CL code before we release it. I also need to insert copyright notices and clear things with my intellectual property office before it goes out the door. 20:00:27 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:31 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:42 sure..expecially the interactions with the clang driver... 20:00:44 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@79.150.126.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:00:46 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 20:00:49 drmeister: ah yes, of course. 20:03:43 drmeister: more generally I am asking: At least in principle doesn't llvm provide enough run-time information, without having to do intermediate code generation using tools and header files? 20:04:12 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:05:38 lmj`: There are two main libraries under the LLVM umbrella - the LLVM library and the Clang library. The LLVM library is a compiler back-end library and it doesn't know anything about C++ code. The Clang library parses C++ and generates an AST and knows everything about C++ code. 20:06:10 I've exposed and use the LLVM backend library extensively. I haven't started interfacing to the Clang library - but I have big plans for that. 20:06:13 sure ... maybe is better use also the clang front-end 20:06:29 Is there a negative of EQUAL? I'd need to use it in REMOVE ... 20:06:34 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-9-27.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:44 I guess I have to do (REMOVE-IF-NOT (LAMBDA (e) ...)), right? 20:06:51 flip214: there's :test-not and such too 20:07:15 flip214: or (remove x s :test-not 'equal) or (remove x s :test (complement 'equal)) 20:07:17 Bike: thanks, forgot about that one. 20:07:48 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-147-047.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:35 pjb: thanks, too. 20:09:48 Some implementations have a NEQ function. (defun nequal (x y) (not (equal x y))) would do too, if it was used often. 20:11:26 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:31 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:14:15 sorry drmeister , how do you think would be possible call clang compiler from CL? If not why this option is not useful? 20:14:40 clang is provided as a library to do that. 20:15:05 mmm... sorry pjb , but is clang a compiler? 20:15:09 It could be used to parse C/C++ code, eg. in an IDE. 20:15:29 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-125-96.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:15:43 Yes, clang also has a LLVM backend, so it generates code too. You can use the LLVM or the native code generated to do whatever you want too. 20:15:52 now I'm reading the Clang's compiler user manual ... 20:16:13 So, indeed, when we say "call out a C++ compiler", in the case of clang, it's just using the clang library, so it can be done all inside the memory. 20:16:51 pjb: I do not understand why you say "call the clang library"... 20:17:14 where is the library? 20:17:18 vs. fork/exec of the clang executable. 20:17:34 /opt/llvm/lib/libclang.so 20:17:46 Depends on the distributions 20:17:48 mmm ok.. 20:18:11 gentoo puts it in /usr/lib/llvm/libclang.so (but it's not a bleeding edge version). 20:19:06 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-216-10.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:19:09 pjb: so is better "call" the clang library rather than call the clang executable from lisp... if I understand well 20:19:16 Yes. 20:19:25 If you have a CL-C++ FFI that is :-) 20:19:41 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-147-047.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:37 dioxirane: Are you a chemist? 20:22:14 drmeister: maybe you're a chemist! 20:22:34 Yes I am - are you? 20:22:47 The general problem with a CL-C++ FFI is that it needs information not present in the library binary. Even if you work out the demangling rules and where the virtual pointer is stored, you still need to know what the virtual indexes are, and for that you have to do the moral equivalent of parsing header files. 20:22:58 Everyone thinks they have a "REPL" now. http://repl.it/languages. Is it pedentic to insist on the "R"? 20:23:06 So there's no getting away to SWIG-like wrappers. 20:23:10 drmeister: I'm only a guy... :) 20:23:13 *away from 20:24:08 There's no simple, direct way to call a function, like there is with C. 20:24:55 drmeister: why not write something like psi4 in lisp rather than write anoyther compiler? 20:25:25 lmj`: I don't know about all of that - I know how to expose C++ classes/functions within my CL implementation. Regular methods, virtual methods, overloaded methods - all work. I never had to deal with demangling, vtables or any of that. That would have driven me nuts. 20:25:34 what is psi4? 20:26:22 You mean the ab initio quantum chemistry package? 20:26:36 drmeister: one of the software I like 20:27:05 drmeister: well again we are talking about different ways of giving CL the information it needs. One can always write SWIG-like wrappers, but the direct approach is best, if it can be done. 20:28:39 CrazyEddy [~counterqu@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:28:43 In the best case I say "link to this library and call this function" and it works. No messing with headers, intermediate tools, etc. 20:29:39 cddr: well, they do read and parse, so the R is justified I think. 20:29:50 I love CL - I want to write chemistry software in CL - I can't interface my C++ code to any existing CL implementation - so I wrote my own. The experience has been exhausting but exhilarating and highly educational. 20:30:30 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:42 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:31:37 lmj`: There are two decent ways of interfacing C with python. One is SWIG, the other is boost::python. They are very different in their approach. SWIG generates wrappers. boost::python builds an interface. I copied the boost::python approach for my CL-C++ bridge. 20:31:49 What's funny, is that writing a C++ compiler in CL (generating CL code), would have allowed you the same C++ code reuse into your future CL programs. But it would probably have been much more work. 20:33:29 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-avtfzhysbggrlkji] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:29 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gsiqmudcoqupopcu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:06 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:34:21 -!- CrazyEddy [~counterqu@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35:00 My current CL compiler weighs in at 5273 lines of CL code (just the CL code - not the C++ kernel under it). I doubt I could have written a C++ compiler with that little code. 20:35:45 I wonder what ratio of LOC per page of the offical spec would be expected. 20:37:25 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcaolngwwxaahsgr] has joined #lisp 20:37:39 My compiler is pretty minimal. It does very little optimization. 20:38:20 lmj`: "link to this library" will pretty much never work in C++. Too much stuff is expected to be inlined. 20:38:27 drmeister: it's a good starting point and a noble intention .. to progress faster, as far as is possibel, 1) share your sources and 2) create a website for your project... 20:38:51 I've found the CLHS to be very, very well written and very clear - except regarding environments. 20:39:08 pkhuong: I imagined llvm had link-time inlining or some fancy stuff. 20:39:15 drmeister: these were essentially left out 20:39:32 llvm has link-time inlining but it's a bleeding-edge feature. 20:40:03 lmj`: doesn't change the fact that no object code is ever emitted for stuff that's just inlined. 20:40:22 My student and I have been evaluating if we should use it yet or not. We decided to do inlining in a different way. 20:41:27 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-9-27.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:41:34 pkhuong: To use link-time inlining you can't use object code. You have to generate LLVM-IR bitcode and link that. 20:42:01 drmeister: in what branch of chemistry are you involved? 20:42:11 pkhuong: I don't know about that -- an inline function would still produce code; it just gets elided by the linker. 20:42:25 drmeister: llvm bitcode is object code. 20:42:27 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 20:42:39 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dbnmjdvzlwwjfkok] has joined #lisp 20:43:04 dioxirane: I'm a professor of organic chemistry - synthetic organic chemistry is what we do. Big organic molecules. 20:43:33 so m 20:43:56 *maybe you're interested in molecular dynamic... 20:44:18 pkhuong: I'm differentiating between bitcode (compressed LLVM-IR) code and object code (linkable blocks of native instructions). 20:44:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-114.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:50 dioxirane: Very interested in MD. Do you use AMBER? 20:45:16 why?M 20:45:23 lmj`: nope. there's no guarantee that any trace remains, especially with optimisation enabled. 20:45:24 I wrote LEaP. 20:45:45 drmeister: as you pointed out bitcode is linkable. 20:46:41 I had the privilege of working with Peter Kollman before he passed away. 20:47:35 pkhuong: are we talking about llvm specifically, or how inline functions can work in principle? I don't see anything wrong, in principle, with inlining getting put off until the final link. 20:47:53 lmj`: we're talking about how inlined functions work in practice. 20:49:03 pkhuong: Sure - it's linkable but my understanding is that there is a difference between object code and LLVM bitcode. Bitcode is like dough, it can be manipulated and further optimized (such as inlining) as well as linked. Object code is fully baked and you can't do anything with it but link it. 20:49:58 drmeister: some link time optimisation happens with machine code. bitcode is object code: it's the output of a compiler when fed a module. Just like fasls are object code. 20:50:36 GCC has link time optimization as well. To use it you have to instruct GCC to write out their GIMPLE intermediate representation. 20:51:00 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-hfzfurxxntkfjujj] has joined #lisp 20:52:14 Ok, I don't want to argue. How about there's intermediate-representation object code (bitcode, GIMPLE) and then there's native object code. 20:52:46 That didn't sound the way I meant it to sound - basically, I understand your point. 20:52:50 are CL arrays arrays of arrays or multi-dimensional arrays? 20:53:04 I'm trying to compare them to PostgreSQL multi-dimensional arrays 20:53:26 dim: the interface is multidimensional 20:53:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:08 can you have an array with user-defined indexes (say -3 to 2)? 20:54:16 dim: the spec strongly suggests row-major (and its arbitrary rank extension) addressing. 20:54:22 dim: not in the spec. 20:54:28 okay 20:55:08 we're having a discussion about special cases such as 0 dimension arrays and 1-D array, and I'm proposing a parallel with CL vectors that are nothing but a 1-D array with another name, and with the same API 20:55:33 now wondering if that's a model that would work to simplify the array API we use in PostgreSQL 20:55:48 *Xach* likes 0d arrays 20:55:51 (I mean the model of adding a vector type name) 20:56:03 0d or 0-rank? (: 20:56:47 well, have a read at http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/CADxJZo0keVhSRzUnot2Y6g46tsP7f-eV28iEmBd3AtLjU-YTMA@mail.gmail.com if you're interested :) 20:57:06 the guy opens with "I submit a patch to rectify the weird and confusing quirk of Postgres to use "zero dimensions" to signify an empty array." 20:58:53 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:10 And now the importance of distinguishing between dimension and rank becomes clear. 21:00:09 well let me admit that I still have to properly think about the topic one day, meanwhile color me confused 21:00:28 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:32 wait, what's the difference? 21:03:11 rank is the number of dimension. A dimension of zero and zero dimensions (rank of zero) are different. One is a vector with no element, the other is something like a scalar, with a single element. 21:03:55 Oh. 21:04:23 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:04:35 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:05:48 I was taught that dimension is a property of a space (2D space, 3D space) and rank is a property of matrices. 21:05:54 -!- cibs_ [~cibs@111-248-51-116.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:02 yeah, but now the PostgreSQL is what's '{}'::int[]? an empty array of which dimension and rank? 21:06:22 If it has rank 0, it's definitely not empty. 21:06:22 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:31 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:03 rank is a property of tensors, no? 21:07:15 And matrices are rank-2 tensors. 21:07:30 drmeister: that's another "rank"... there is no end to the pain that causes for tensors. 21:07:31 cibs [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:40 and select array_dims('{}'::int[]); return NULL, which is not 0, see 21:08:33 I guess - it's been a long time. 21:09:06 Oh, you can actually have 0-rank CL arrays, huh... 21:09:45 (type-of (make-array nil :element-type 'char)) (SIMPLE-ARRAY T NIL) 21:09:47 ah. yes. 21:10:18 the so called rank-nullity situation :) 21:12:52 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:13 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:01 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:52 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:27:21 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:30:30 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:30:32 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:46 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2986CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:32:28 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 21:32:36 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:34:02 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:37:10 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.41.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:38:25 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dbnmjdvzlwwjfkok] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:25 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwrmawwqtbrefpqd] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 21:38:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:01 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcaolngwwxaahsgr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:07 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iiakgxogvzyyveud] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 21:42:20 xani` [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 21:45:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:27 I probably should have asked this question earlier but I risk starting a flame-war. 21:49:12 Is ECL a full-fledged Common Lisp implementation? I ask because I've based about 6-months of work on hosting the ECL source-code on my C++ kernel. 21:49:28 yCrazyEdd [~Didunculi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:49:56 drmeister: while i've heard that it has bugs, I have the understanding that it is a full implementation. 21:50:01 drmeister: rather late in the game? 21:50:03 It seems pretty well fledged. More so than GCL or maybe CLISP. 21:50:29 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:49 drmeister: but, yea -- if you want to know if it runs all/most libraries in Quicklisp, check the cl-test-grid. 21:50:53 Yes, rather late in the game. I figured someone would have said something if I was going in a really bad direction :-). 21:50:55 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 drmeister: http://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ :) 21:51:23 well, if it's not: you can always move it there. 21:51:26 drmeister: that's, I think, what would have happened. 21:51:39 (that's what I did with ABCL) 21:53:06 I kind of figured I was building on a reasonably solid foundation - and some of the other implementations like SBCL seemed a bit daunting. 21:53:49 *drewc* has used ECL in the past for a commercial project, and could not use GCL or CLISP for it, though not because of ANSI compliance... 21:53:51 sbcl is very good 21:54:08 prxq: I agree, I use it all the time. 21:54:26 'solid' I would not call the ECL foundation, but it is existing :P 21:54:44 cmucl seems to have gone totally buggy tho.... 21:55:09 i don't get the errors with sbcl with the same file set loaded.... 21:55:18 which i get from it.... 21:55:37 drewc: "reasonably solid". 21:55:52 Fare: .lpr is Allegro's rough equivalent to .asd 21:56:05 drmeister: ECL is fine for straight ANSI CL; it's the extra-CL things which can have issues: threads, usocket, and so forth. 21:56:05 wbooze: that does not mean much. I don't think cmucl introduced many new bugs this decade. 21:56:07 ok 21:56:08 Fare: ah! you're in. missed that. 21:56:12 What are the "solid" CL implementations? Allegro? SBCL? 21:56:19 ehu: I was writing a reply to you 21:56:32 ehu: but can do it here instead, if you prefer. 21:56:40 ok. well, that's going cc to the mailing list, so maybe it's best to complete it. 21:56:42 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:56:44 *drewc* used CMUCL about 10 years ago when SBCL was switched toward for work ... SBCL 0.8.14 was the first I used, and it is still running that site. 21:57:11 then everybody can see our progress. 21:57:22 you saw both mails, I take it? 21:57:44 is ECL capable of running hunchentoot and lparallel? 21:58:17 For sockets and threading, the only implementations I have found to be "solid" are SBCL, CCL, ABCL, Allegro, and LispWorks. 21:58:39 dim: ECL has threading problems under stress. You might not see in day-to-day life. 21:58:50 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 21:58:53 -!- speeder [~needhelp@201.81.173.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:59:05 I'm not implementing threading. 21:59:11 my current concern is preparing a binary for my application, that is intended to be running almost unattended for the next 6 months 21:59:23 *ehu* loves to see ABCL in the list of "solid" 21:59:29 and then used daily in crons or the like 22:00:00 hq1 [~aerosol@unaffiliated/hq1] has joined #lisp 22:00:14 and using buildapp in sbcl I couldn't get a binary application because of problems with asdf and uiop and their relative quicklisp versions, apparently 22:00:19 will have to try that again later anyways 22:00:32 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:19 anyway, gn! 22:01:30 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-199-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 ehu: I'm recinding "solid" until a gray stream is a stream :) 22:01:50 lol 22:02:19 that's probably going to happen soon enough. 22:02:40 question is whether that fixes the pretty printer issues. 22:02:46 (probably not by itself) 22:03:18 lmj`: Which implementation does not implement gray streams as streams? ECL? 22:03:20 Fare: it's midnight here, I was actually on my way out, but I'm torn now that I know you're writing an answer... 22:03:22 emanuele1 [~emanuele1@adsl-ull-197-138.46-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 22:03:25 hi guys, anyone skilled in java here? 22:03:25 -!- yCrazyEdd [~Didunculi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:27 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:34 And SBCL 1.1.6 gets "solid" rescinded until the next release. 22:03:47 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-247-1.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:54 emanuele1: sure, but what's the relation to Common Lisp? 22:03:55 lmj`: I ask because I was looking forward to getting gray streams from the ECL code soon. 22:03:55 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 22:04:09 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-47-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:04:33 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:37 -!- ncw [~ncw@host86-143-115-152.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:01 sent reply 22:05:03 drmeister: it was an sort of an inside joke. In ABCL, (subtypep 'gray-streams:fundamental-stream 'stream) => NIL 22:05:19 It doesn't matter unless there is a DECLARE somewhere, like in cl-store. 22:06:09 i'm looking for a partner for a project... and I'm asking around... anyone interested? 22:06:21 ehu: are you trying to improve abcl-jar by reusing the new bundle technology, or to replace it with an actual implementation of fasl combination? 22:07:26 emanuele1, if you're looking for a partner in lisp, this is the channel. for java, not so. 22:07:40 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:08:00 ok, maybe I should use lparallel for quux-hunchentoot, instead of rolling my own with chanl 22:08:10 that's what my code reviewer suggested, anyway 22:08:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:29 (though he didn't specifically suggest lparallel, just looking at the existing offering) 22:08:29 Fare: I'm thinking that fasl-concatenation serves the same purpose as asdf-jar does. 22:08:30 I thought someone who knows lisp might know java as well... sorry 22:08:34 lmj`, still here? 22:08:41 ehu: yes it does 22:08:46 create a single contains-it-all file which can be easily distributed. 22:08:47 so, 22:08:50 ehu: could abcl do it? 22:08:55 yes. 22:08:58 excellent 22:09:01 but not the way it's done now. 22:09:11 of course. 22:09:49 Fare: yep 22:10:18 Hmm, I'm working on fasl-concatenation as well. 22:10:53 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:00 *Xach* pines for steeldump maybe 22:11:18 lmj`, so... what is the right way to have a work pool with lparallel? 22:11:26 Fare: my idea is to unpack the .abcl files and repackage the individual files, possibly in subdirectories of the concatenated fasl 22:11:32 Currently my fasl files are LLVM bitcode - I plan to link them together with an extra function that calls each of their main functions in sequence and link it all into a library that will be dload'ed. 22:11:33 that should improve access speeds. 22:12:05 the risk one runs otherwise is that you get a zip-in-a-zip-in-a-zip-etc 22:12:22 ehu: sounds good. If you just provide a new implementation of combine-fasls, you can just reuse the existing bundle infrastructure. 22:12:27 Fare: make-kernel? As opposed to some other way? 22:12:29 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:34 I'll do that. 22:12:37 (Not being sarcastic. Don't understand.) 22:13:03 lmj`, I suppose I have to read more about lparallel before I can ask sensible questions 22:13:27 I was in a rush previously and threw something that works as simply as possible. 22:13:46 now that the thing is working and committed, I'm looking into doing it right. 22:14:07 Fare: regarding the binary op thing, 22:14:10 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:17 Fare: A "kernel" would be called a thread pool except that it has fancy scheduling functionality and state attached to it. And "kernel" is much shorter than "thread pool". 22:14:35 I was under the impression it should be run by the asdf/bundle::make-build function? 22:14:41 Also, "kernel" is amorphous and can also apply to distributed scheduling across machines, (see lfarm). 22:15:25 ehu: make-build is a thing I pulled from asdf-ecl. I admit I haven't used it yet, and it's not covered by the asdf test suite 22:15:43 lmj`, sounds good 22:15:55 lmj`, are there stress tests for lparallel already? 22:16:18 Fare: yes, many. I've found bugs in all CL implementations with the tests in lparallel. 22:16:55 Nice! I love that. 22:17:33 Fare: it just overwrote the original bordeaux-threads asdf file :-/ 22:17:57 It's very difficult to convince gb when I find a bug, but I persisted (and prevailed) in each case. 22:18:00 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-unrixasscqcqjypk] has joined #lisp 22:18:22 (that is, not make-build, but "(asdf:oos 'asdf:binary-op :bordeaux-threads)" 22:18:23 ) 22:18:31 ehu: oops 22:18:52 ehu: once again, it wasn't tested :-( 22:19:17 lmj`, congratulations 22:19:24 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:19:32 np. :-) I'm headed off. later! (consider it a bugreport though :-) 22:19:38 I like gb -- he cares 22:19:46 ehu: considered 22:20:14 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-199-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:20:54 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:20:55 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 22:22:00 -!- emanuele1 [~emanuele1@adsl-ull-197-138.46-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 22:22:06 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:54 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:28:13 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 22:30:29 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:51 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-50-75.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-50-75.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:30:51 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:31:05 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:34:14 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:35:20 pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:01 ASau [~user@46.115.41.57] has joined #lisp 22:37:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:37:56 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2986CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 -!- pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 22:38:36 lmj`, my issue with lparallel previously was more about lack of documentation coupled with somewhat non-standard terminology inside 22:40:34 Fare: Can you be more specific? What does http://lparallel.org not cover? 22:41:10 -!- dfghjklrtyui [dfghjklrty@93.152.149.84] has quit [] 22:41:38 You asked how to make a thread pool -- so I guess you didn't know about that site? 22:41:54 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:02 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:42:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2986CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:42:33 -!- xani` [~user@178.183.150.87.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:18 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:31 michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-64-228.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:21 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:47:33 -!- michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-64-228.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:30 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:49:34 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-208-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host254-220-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:00:29 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:27 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:58 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.41.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:55 weird 23:10:48 ASau [~user@46.115.41.57] has joined #lisp 23:14:22 speeder [~needhelp@201.81.173.208] has joined #lisp 23:17:36 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:32 heh 23:22:05 -!- speeder [~needhelp@201.81.173.208] has left #lisp 23:23:13 djanatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 23:24:07 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xurvnjrqnaspyrht] has joined #lisp 23:25:42 pathname handling was broken in cmucl, either only for mcclim or i dunno what's happening.... 23:25:49 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:25:51 or rather is.... 23:28:26 and some pcl crap too probably.... 23:29:36 i have the same load order for mcclim-freetype and mcclim-truetype stuff in my init file for sbclim and cmucl, but one errors the other works.... 23:30:15 -!- Guest16943 is now known as wc 23:30:32 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:45 -!- wc is now known as Guest58795 23:30:49 check-type degrees-or-hours is printed as check-type degrees-or-/\errors in cmucls printer....so maybe printer bugs too.... 23:31:43 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:32:49 wbooze: missing a (force-output) before printing the value. 23:33:23 More probably, degrees-or-hours is some value that doesn't have a debugged print-object method. 23:33:38 dunno, there's a (check-type degrees-or-hours integer) in some package here and it complains about that with the print message above..... 23:33:58 Try to get (type-of degrees-or-hours) 23:34:04 hmmmm 23:34:04 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-180-131-134.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:35:19 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: all hope lost] 23:37:10 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:47 but that's weird, even if the debuggers printer is distinct from the normal one, it should be able to handle the same things... 23:38:02 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:27 instead it flips out at the second hyphen.... 23:38:28 lol 23:39:23 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:40:10 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:23 mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:13 sw2wolf [~czsq888@118.112.69.153] has joined #lisp 23:44:57 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:09 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.137.198] has joined #lisp 23:46:38 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 23:48:27 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:01 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:55 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:35 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:53:00 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:53:21 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:39 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:54 *Fare* is having extreme pains writing an article on live programming 23:54:00 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:56:24 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:06 Why?