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[~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:14:43 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:15:40 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 02:19:16 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:19 fe[nl]ix: Looking for me? 02:29:39 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:30:36 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-170-105.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:07 knob [~knob@66-50-170-105.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:44 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:36:13 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:37:01 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:56 leo2007 [~leo@123.108.223.39] has joined #lisp 02:38:40 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-101-125.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 02:39:57 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 02:40:49 -!- v_ [~v@141-236-136-14.38cloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:48 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:44:19 -!- pmai [~Thunderbi@2001:470:1f15:3df:7ccd:ea94:1862:8f08] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:45:42 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-130-252.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:45:42 minion: around 02:45:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``around''. 02:46:40 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:47:27 minion: memo for fe[nl]ix: I'll try to apply your threading fix soon. 02:47:27 Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks. 02:53:40 -!- rixard [~rixard@81-235-139-119-no63.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:54:12 v_ [~v@114.112.255.154] has joined #lisp 02:54:14 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:54:37 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-130-252.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:22 is it possible to pass arguments to a function that's used in a map function? 02:55:22 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:41 elaborate? 02:56:17 for example, if i have (map nil #'push '(foo)) how do i tell determine what the traget of push will be? 02:56:32 push isn't a function, for one thing 02:56:38 for another you'd usually use a lambda 02:56:47 (map nil (lambda (x) (push foo wherever)) '(foo)) 02:57:01 right, that's what i was going to do.. but then i wondered if this approach were possible... 02:57:04 so no go? 02:57:15 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:57:30 well, if push were a function and you were using alexandria (or if you wanted to define it yourself, you could do something like (map nil (rcurry #'push wherever) '(foo)) 02:57:50 but push is a macro. 02:58:07 Natch_k [~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:58:38 ok so disregarding push, any functions that map uses cannot take secondary arguments? 02:58:49 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58:49 -!- Natch_k is now known as Natch 02:59:01 you have to use a lambda? 02:59:11 i think you are confused as to what map does 03:00:09 i mean, instead of doing somethign like (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (+ x q)) '(1 2 3 4)) 03:00:17 it's not possible to just do (mapcar # 03:00:39 (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3 4) 5) 03:00:49 (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (+ x 5)) '(1 2 3 4)) 03:00:51 sorry typo 03:00:57 no, because mapcar takes lists, not singletons 03:01:44 (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3 4) 5) is like (list (funcall #'+ (first '(1 2 3 4)) (first 5)) (funcall #'+ (second '(1 2 3 4)) (second 5)) ...) 03:01:50 which of course doesn't make sense 03:02:16 right, i know that you can have two or more lists in mapcar 03:02:34 but what if you just want to add 5, for example, to all the numbers in the first list 03:02:38 lambda is the only way/ 03:02:39 ? 03:02:39 for your case, you don't want to map #'+ over the list. you want to map a function that adds 5. those are different functions. 03:02:46 drewc: I don't think it's possible to reliably compile away all the load of kernel's dynamic evals. 03:03:04 You could do: (defun adder (n) (lambda (x) (+ x n))), like any freshman 03:03:10 maybe with more restrictions or a different strategy in place it might be, but I don't think kernel can do it. 03:03:10 and then (mapcar (adder 5) '(1 2 3 4)) 03:03:19 sykopomp: i was thinking typing might help 03:03:54 yeah ok that answers my question, i was just wondering if it were possible to take a shortcut instead of using lambdas or helper functions 03:03:56 thanks 03:04:16 momo-reina: my point is that any shortcut would just be a wrapper around these semantics. 03:04:39 momo-reina: in haskell for instance you can do "map (+ 5) [1,2,3,4]" but this is pretty much the same as my example. 03:05:23 because (+ 5) in haskell is like lisp (lambda (x) (+ x 5)). 03:06:13 Bike: right, the end result is the same, but in your haskell example you don't have to create another function (lambda or otherwise) to add the 5, it's done inline 03:06:13 I was wondering if it were possible in CL as well, guess not 03:06:14 sykopomp: as in, oh foo-thing is known to be a function in this scope, don't have to worry about it being redefined as a vau. not that this helps with arbitrary code really. 03:06:23 momo-reina: "done inline"? 03:06:31 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50421.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:06:34 (+ 5) is another function. 03:08:04 sorry, i just made that term up, i mean that there's some sort of wrapper, synctactig sugar that avoids the manual creation of a function 03:08:20 i was just looking for a way to shorten my code and maybe improve readability at the same time 03:08:26 -!- youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:08:26 well, you can define the wrapper yourself. 03:08:33 Bike: I may have spoken too soon and too generally. I think it's more that my for-the-browser kernel-like can't be partially evaled away. But maybe there's a different solution to that. 03:08:38 i use alexandria:curry all the time, (mapcar (curry #'+ 5) '(1 2 3 4)) 03:08:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:09:08 *sykopomp* crawls back in his hole. 03:09:25 sykopomp: i was just trying to suggest a possible strategy :/ 03:09:41 i'll definitely take a look at that 03:09:42 thanks 03:09:43 ! 03:10:01 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 03:10:08 *sw2wolf* i need pattern match in CL to simplify my codes ... 03:10:09 ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 sweet_kid: optima 03:10:54 er, sw2wolf. 03:11:08 clhs optima 03:11:17 it's a library 03:11:46 thx, is it in QuickLisp ? 03:12:00 yes. 03:12:58 ok in install, thx 03:13:11 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 03:13:43 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:13:44 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 03:13:45 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:13:47 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rejcykmmzwqdiznu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:47 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 03:13:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:47 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:47 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14:55 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:19:05 sw2wolf, optima 03:19:06 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:19:28 optima is great, I stand by optima. 03:19:55 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:10 i still can't for the life of me figure out how the thing i misunderstood earlier works, but it does, guess I shouldn't complain. 03:23:13 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: x___x] 03:24:02 Maybe optima is doing some binding slime-macroexpansion-mode isn't privy too. 03:25:31 optima seems meet our needs , need time to evaluate it ... 03:26:39 Because we must be careful to use non-standard library 03:27:58 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 03:28:30 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:29:37 -!- sw2wolf is now known as sw2wolf{away} 03:29:38 -!- momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:49 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:31:43 optima+++ 03:31:49 or incf or w/e 03:32:00 wish I were coding more lisp so I could use it :) 03:32:09 -!- sykopomp` is now known as syskopomp 03:32:14 -!- syskopomp is now known as sykopomp 03:32:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:33:02 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:23 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 03:36:53 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:41 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:05 codygman [47fcd533@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.252.213.51] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:19 -!- oticat` [~oticat@1-164-214-135.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:19 -!- tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:03 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:22 tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has joined #lisp 03:40:29 oticat` [~oticat@1-164-214-135.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:43 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:44:38 -!- codygman [47fcd533@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.252.213.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:51:48 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:52:11 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:52:49 how do i restart my application (from SLIME) when working with cl-opengl? 03:53:11 usually a process is kept in the background after i start it 03:55:06 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:57:08 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:17 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:01:55 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:02:13 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:02:41 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:08:00 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:08:24 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-185.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:09:25 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:09:59 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:31 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 04:13:19 ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 04:13:39 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:14:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.2.243] has joined #lisp 04:14:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.2.243] has quit [Changing host] 04:14:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:15:30 codygman [47fcd533@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.252.213.51] has joined #lisp 04:17:55 How can I read items from the prompt into a list? For example, in my code here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136130 (search for comment "I want the ingredients to be their own list") 04:18:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:26 list 04:20:43 thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.168.18] has joined #lisp 04:23:03 -!- meiji11 [~user@d75-158-40-174.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:08 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:52 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:27:31 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.168.18] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:28:55 -!- sw2wolf{away} is now known as sw2wolf 04:31:53 cdidd [~cdidd@89.178.236.232] has joined #lisp 04:32:59 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 04:34:41 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:34:52 ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 04:34:53 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 04:39:44 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:44 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:39:44 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:40:01 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 04:41:36 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:43:56 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:46:16 I'm having a weird issue, anyone out there? 04:47:29 yo 04:48:45 hi Bike 04:49:04 I have a function which works from the repl just fine, but when called through usocket I am receiving the following 04:49:39 When attempting to read the slot's value (slot-value), the slot 04:49:43 JOB_ID is missing from the object 04:49:45 #. [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 04:49:54 package issue? 04:49:56 however I know for certain that unit class object does have the job_id slot 04:53:30 hmm 04:54:37 basically is it using COM.AHUNGRY.TACTICS::JOB_ID or CL-USER::JOB_ID or what 04:57:22 I am using this line to attempt to refer to it dynamically as the actual slot is stored as a string 04:57:42 (defun job-stat-checker (unit-id comparison stat value) 04:57:42 "Checks something similar to a bash style check" 04:57:42 (let* ((unit (get-from *units* 'id unit-id)) 04:57:43 (unit-value (slot-value unit (intern (string-upcase stat))))) 04:57:47 Yep. 04:57:57 Always supply a package argument to INTERN. 04:57:59 That's your problem. 04:58:07 doh(noob lisper here) 04:58:17 jus with a colo after the intern portion? 04:58:20 just* 04:58:23 packages muck up everybody once or twice or several dozen times 04:58:25 and colon* keyboard flakin on me 04:58:28 haha 04:58:51 the second argument of intern is a package designator, which could be a keyword, yes 04:59:27 But do you really need to pass stat around as a string? Is it user input or something? 05:02:09 yea, I am having a stat check for my little game based on some database fields 05:02:14 and I want the db field to be something like 05:02:24 hp:gt3,level:gt4 05:02:35 which would make sure the unit has more than 3 hp and more than level 4 05:02:43 ok. just keep in mind that things get a bit hairy. 05:02:50 aye :) 05:03:10 so far it was working nicely in the repl while i was in the com.ahungry.tactics package, just not so nice through usockets thread 05:04:23 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 05:05:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:10:02 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 05:12:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.108.223.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:12:29 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:13:15 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thypakhrazvsgvld] has joined #lisp 05:13:34 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:42 -!- sambio_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 05:18:24 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:19:10 jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has joined #lisp 05:19:49 teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has joined #lisp 05:20:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:20:24 fightback [~david@163-116.199-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 05:20:24 -!- fightback [~david@163-116.199-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:38 normanrichards [~normanric@207.224.30.30] has joined #lisp 05:22:33 -!- codygman [47fcd533@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.252.213.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:23:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.2.243] has joined #lisp 05:23:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.2.243] has quit [Changing host] 05:23:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:23:09 thanks again for the help it works 05:23:28 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:26:17 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:38:50 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.203.226] has left #lisp 05:41:19 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:41:53 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.111] has joined #lisp 05:52:43 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:52 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:51 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.212.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:58:53 -!- akovalen` [~user@95.72.41.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:02:19 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:55 Aiwass [~user@86.127.136.74] has joined #lisp 06:06:39 -!- v_ [~v@114.112.255.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:10:52 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-jspzlbgpuuuqslvb] has quit 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08:08:26 zz__ [~zz__@li490-98.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:36 Ralt_ [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:38 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:10:28 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:15:50 yati [~yati@122.169.88.35] has joined #lisp 08:15:55 rixard [~rixard@81-235-139-119-no63.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:06 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:19 -!- rixard [~rixard@81-235-139-119-no63.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:25 Hi. I'm reading Practical Common Lisp and using SBCL. The book says that I can combine &rest and &key params safely. However, for this function (defun foo (&rest rest &key a b c) (list rest a b c)), while the call (foo :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) gives me ((:A 1 :B 2 :C 3) 1 2 3), the call (foo "lama" :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) does not work, saying an odd #of kwargs were passed. In my understanding, the output should have been (("lama" :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) 1 2 3). What am I missing? 08:20:34 yati: if &rest is followed by &key, the argument just receives what has been passed for the keywords. 08:21:15 yati: think about it: what would it mean if &rest foo &key ... would mean that there could be an arbitrary number of optional arguments before the keyword arguments 08:23:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:24:11 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:25:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:26:24 Yuuhi`` [benni@pD9F98885.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:03 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5DC61D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:34 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:30:10 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:243d:ce3b:5b20:30d0] has joined #lisp 08:30:51 H4ns, but wouldn't collecting the entire argument list into the rest param and binding only specific stuff to the appropriate kwargs make more sense? I'm just thinking out aloud, please correct me. 08:31:37 yati: not quite - if you want that, you can use &allow-other-keys 08:32:27 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 08:33:17 So using &rest followed by &key just collects the kwargs as a p-list into the rest parameter variable, is it? 08:33:34 -!- pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 08:33:43 yati: yes. (we say "keyword arguments" and "plist" here) :) 08:35:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39:33 H4ns: speaking of that. What's the story behind the keyword argument :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS? What is the point o fit? Is it ever needed? 08:39:50 (as opposed to the &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS...) 08:40:24 loke: sure, it is useful if you need a function with arbitrary keyword arguments that allows keyword arguments but has no &allow-other-keys clause in its argument list 08:40:52 H4ns: have you ever had the need for it? 08:41:01 H4ns, ah, thanks, will keep that in mind :) 08:41:09 loke: indeed. rarely, but if it is useful, it is useful 08:41:11 :) 08:41:17 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:41:39 i use it in six places in my current project 08:42:21 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:43:30 loke: backward compatibility for functionality that's good to have, but not necessary if unavailable. 08:44:46 alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02cbc2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:49 i often represent ad-hoc data in plists, and sometimes it is more convenient to just pass a plist to an existing function rather than extracting the right values into a new argument list. 08:51:22 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:45 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:51:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:51:45 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:52:23 Interesting. I never could see why it could be useful. 08:52:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:54:10 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.167.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:54:45 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.101] has joined #lisp 08:55:50 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:56:19 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:34f3:6e61:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 08:57:53 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CHUNGA-1.1.3, Hunchentoot 1.2.15, SBCL 1.1.5, CFFI 0.11.0, Babel 0.4.0, trivial-garbage 0.20, trivial-features 0.7 08:57:57 http://swissam.net/Mesost.jpg 08:58:23 H4ns: is that the cl+ssl fix? 08:58:35 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:58:50 stassats: no, that is something else. the cl+ssl problem is a cl+ssl problem, i think anton fixed it. 08:59:37 indeed, cl+ssl now works with drakma 08:59:43 \o/ 09:00:08 why isn't github mentioned in chunga's documentation? 09:00:16 stassats: Would that cl+ssl fix affect ABCL as well? 09:00:36 easye: don't think so 09:00:38 stassats: we want to confuse and mislead you! 09:01:23 stassats: it is mentioned, though 09:01:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:01:43 stassats: i'll have to convert and clean up the documentation some day, but not today 09:01:59 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@207.224.30.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:11 stassats: ah, i see what you're complaining about now. 09:02:20 stassats: i'll pass the complaint on to edi 09:03:57 gosh, i'm still using chunga from darcs, but yes, i was complaining about the docs on weitz.de 09:04:34 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:57 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:20 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:07:00 easye: and just checked, no, cl+ssl still doesn't work with abcl 09:10:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:10:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:11:30 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:12:19 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:14:01 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:16:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:17:01 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:17:39 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.210] has joined #lisp 09:18:54 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 09:19:51 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:20:28 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:21:08 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b52e2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:23:21 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:23:41 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757bbb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:42 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 09:24:34 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:25:39 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:25:50 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:30:52 -!- v_ [~v@141-236-136-14.38cloud.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:32:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:18 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:34:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:40:02 daimrod__ [~user@ANantes-653-1-62-143.w109-211.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 09:41:56 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 09:44:05 v_ [~v@61.173.80.81] has joined #lisp 09:49:35 -!- v_ [~v@61.173.80.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:52:01 Morning 09:52:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:52:36 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:53:35 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:54:39 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:42 I'm using usocket and trying to bind to a broadcast address. However to set broadcast I need to pass a socket to (socket-option socket :broadcast). But I can't create the socket in the first place, because I don't have permission. Am I missing something? 09:56:41 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:56:41 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:56:41 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:57:29 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:59:33 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:00:11 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 10:00:52 I'm trying to run Lisppaste, but it has a dependency on "webutils". Anyone know what project that is? 10:01:05 I never heard about it before, and googling shows more than one with that name. 10:01:51 you have an old lisppaste code 10:02:08 I "lisppaste2" from SVN, last update in 2010 10:02:26 well, the new lisppaste code is not available, there's that 10:02:32 available publicly 10:02:37 Oh 10:02:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:03:05 Well, then my question still stands. :-) 10:03:18 i can't make it available publicly until i change passwords on minion and specbot and remove it from the code 10:03:19 v_ [~v@114.112.255.154] has joined #lisp 10:03:46 and i'm lazy to do that 10:03:57 boo! hiss! 10:04:35 Right, so then I still need webutils then? Unless I write my own lisppaste clone, which I could, I guess... 10:04:50 you can pressure me into releasing it 10:04:51 tsetumel [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has joined #lisp 10:04:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:05:14 *loke* applies pushage in stassats general direction 10:05:58 give me a lisp function to generate random passwords 10:06:21 Sure: 10:07:02 screw it, you'll give me a broken function and then will steal minion and specbot 10:07:37 how about just printing large integers in base36? 10:07:54 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:08:12 antoszka: that's just letters and digits 10:08:24 NOT SECURE ENOUGH11! 10:08:46 haha 10:09:06 i will tell you what password minion has now, after i change it 10:09:09 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:09:25 leo2007 [~leo@221.204.241.117] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 #'(lambda (length) (let ((*print-base* 36)) (write-to-string (random (expt 36 length))))) 10:10:20 Oh wait 10:10:29 take a dictionary of english words in ASCII, randomly select bunch of words longer than 4~5 letters (but shorter than, let's say, 8), return 4~5 of them (depending on length - add more if created string is shorter than 20 characters) separated by space 10:10:53 (format t "~36R" (random most-positive-fixnum)) 10:10:57 i can do shorter 10:11:05 Better use secure-random:number 10:11:20 damn 10:11:48 loke: stassats passed us this red herring to keep us from pressuring him 10:12:07 (defun generate-password (length) (loop with result while (< (length result) length) for random = (code-char (mod (random 232432423423434) 128)) when (graphic-char-p random) do push random result finally (return (coerce result 'string)))) 10:12:28 eh, some parenthesis got lost 10:12:32 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:39 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:33 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:57 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:33 (map 'string #'(lambda (ch) (if (zerop (secure-random:number 2)) (char-downcase ch) ch)) (format nil "~36R" (secure-random:number (expt 36 100)))) 10:15:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:16:38 minion [~user@pppoe.178-66-59-177.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 10:16:44 hello from minion 10:16:53 SrPx [b1626a15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.98.106.21] has joined #lisp 10:16:59 nobody online lalala 10:17:03 minion: hello 10:17:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:17:24 loke: stop playing with me, i'm not your pony 10:17:36 My Little Minion 10:18:53 -!- minion [~user@pppoe.178-66-59-177.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:19:20 specbot [~user@pppoe.178-66-59-177.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:20:13 now cheer for specbot 10:21:01 minion picture: http://c1.wall-art.com/img/pink_pony_wall_decal_single.jpg 10:21:05 Obviously he should have been called Rainbow Dash 10:21:06 -!- specbot [~user@pppoe.178-66-59-177.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:32 lisppaste [~user@pppoe.178-66-59-177.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:21:35 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has joined #lisp 10:21:40 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:21:41 loke: you know your stuff! 10:22:12 of course. 10:22:14 :-) 10:22:58 I prefer to act like Fluttershy when it comes to that topic though 10:23:07 bloody hell, -NickServ- stassats@gmail.com has too many accounts registered. 10:23:35 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 10:23:54 lol 10:24:00 *loke* has watched more episodes of that show than I care to admit. 10:24:40 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Quit: none] 10:25:02 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 10:28:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:29:04 thanks to mail+alias@gmail.com 10:29:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:32:20 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:21 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:37 -!- lisppaste [~user@pppoe.178-66-59-177.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:47 woohoo 10:32:54 clhs list 10:32:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 10:32:59 minion: how you doing? 10:33:01 i wouldn't know about how i doing - i have no memory 10:33:23 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:33:48 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:35:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:37:04 daimrod [1002@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 10:37:06 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:37:11 -!- daimrod__ [~user@ANantes-653-1-62-143.w109-211.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:37:56 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-170-105.prtc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:38:12 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:40 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 10:40:12 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:41:00 -!- v_ [~v@114.112.255.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:41:26 and, the old password was... l1sp 10:41:52 loke: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots 10:41:55 ta-da! 10:43:07 that should work with just quicklisp 10:43:16 though, admin stuff is not ported to hunchentoot yet 10:43:23 (just disabled) 10:44:39 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:42 lisppaste itself is a really weird mix of functions written for araneida and hunchentoot 10:48:34 and the code ranges from bad to horrible, so, writing your own is not a bad idea 10:49:55 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:50:23 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 10:53:01 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:54:09 chebastian [~chebastia@c-9b72e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 Anyone happen to catch a glimpse of my question before? ;) 10:57:11 Kenjin: can non-privileged processes create broadcast sockets? 10:57:32 H4ns: good question 10:58:22 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:32 WARNING: pinging broadcast address 10:58:32 ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted 10:58:43 not without SUID bit. 10:58:43 -!- daimrod [1002@sbrk.org] has quit [Quit: none] 10:59:07 Natch [~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:59:07 Yeah, bummer I need root 10:59:16 daimrod [1002@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 11:00:19 Any way I could do this without having to dump an executable and run it as root? 11:00:22 sorry, that was icmp. 11:00:25 UDP seems to work: 11:00:26 $ socat UDP:255.255.255.255:21,broadcast - 11:00:29 from inside emacs I mean 11:00:43 I'm trying UDP, but with x.x.x.255 11:01:17 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:01:26 I don't know emacs ... but it's just a setsockopt IIRC 11:01:52 SO_BROADCAST 11:01:58 yeah usocket has that. (usocket:socket-option socket :broadcast) 11:02:19 but I need to pass a socket to it, to which I can't bind in the first place 11:02:19 then it should work for UDP. 11:02:31 or I'm missing something 11:03:30 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 11:04:21 you'll need to create the socket, change the option, then bind the address 11:04:43 or, better: don't bind the broadcast address, but use sendto() 11:06:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:57 mallory [~chatzilla@42.120.72.184] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 that would be (usocket:socket-send). Need to figure out how to create the socket without binding 11:08:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:13:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:15:26 I seem to be able to call socket-connect x.x.x.255 on OSX, but not on ubuntu 11:17:07 -!- mallory [~chatzilla@42.120.72.184] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 11:17:19 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:54 mallory [~chatzilla@42.120.72.184] has joined #lisp 11:18:51 -!- mallory [~chatzilla@42.120.72.184] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:35 hydan [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has joined #lisp 11:21:57 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:22:10 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.212.196] has joined #lisp 11:23:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:23:48 You may need root permission or some-such to do udp broadcast, iirc. 11:26:49 Zhivago: seems like it, yes. 11:27:04 there may be capabilities permission 11:27:08 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:27:40 perhaps, CAP_NET_ADMIN 11:27:51 -!- oticat` [~oticat@1-164-214-135.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:27:56 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:26 looking into that, thanks stassats 11:28:49 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:12 there's CAP_NET_BROADCAST, but its description starts with "(Unused)" 11:30:05 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-217-7-89.lnse1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:30:32 what language was common lisp written in? 11:30:46 the English language 11:30:47 theos: in lisp 11:30:49 it sounds weird 11:30:56 p_l and lisp? 11:31:04 theos: in lisp. 11:31:07 :) 11:31:22 and the first lisp? 11:31:27 by the time of CLtL1 most "big" implementations were self-hosting, if not all 11:31:40 theos: pen&paper, possibly typewriter 11:31:41 Common Lisp is not an implementation, it's a description of a language 11:31:51 and well, ^ 11:32:26 oh. but but how can you write a language in a language that never existed before? 11:32:43 theos: it's called bootstrapping. 11:32:43 on a typewriter 11:32:57 :( 11:33:10 theos: exact process depends on what you do, but you first build a tool to build a tool that can be used to build itself 11:33:16 (ad nauseam) 11:33:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:33:38 look at SBCL, it got quite nice example and easy to understand 11:33:39 p_l yes. thats what i am trying to figure out. how did they build the first tool? 11:33:57 theos: by manually wiring a computer 11:34:10 theos: a student came to the prof. and said "hmm, if I implement EVAL() in assembler, shouldn't it give me the rest of language?" 11:34:35 theos: by flipping switches on the front-plate 11:34:37 let me refine it. which tool did they use to write lisp? 11:34:43 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:35:23 none, it was theoretical at first 11:35:53 theos: the first software implementation was done in assembler of some early IBM mainframe. To this day, we use CAR and CDR which were assembler macros used in that implementation... 11:36:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:23 p_l so lisp was written in assembly? 11:36:24 but yes, it started as "abstract tool" 11:36:34 the first time i mean 11:36:37 theos: the first actually running implementation, yes 11:36:46 there's no precise record of how it was written 11:36:58 ah. thats what i was trying to ask :) 11:37:29 ask/know 11:38:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:38:18 and CL can be used to write other languages, right? 11:38:31 theos yes 11:38:41 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:50 ok. thanks all 11:38:57 stassats: I found once some notes which described parts of it, most importantly CONS and how it mapped to IBM 704 11:39:27 every schoolboy knows about CONS 11:39:55 my son doesn't. yet. 11:40:07 whats CONS o.0 11:40:09 stassats: including the fact that it took 4 arguments? 11:40:46 theos: CONS (from CONStruct) = builds "cons cells", two element cells you can use to build lists, trees etc. 11:40:50 not cons the function, about how it was implementation on IMB 704 11:41:00 oh 11:42:03 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:42:05 stassats: afaik it's more a bit of "legend" than knowledge 11:43:28 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 11:43:46 Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.27.231] has joined #lisp 11:44:19 theos: since you're asking about history: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/lisp.html http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 11:45:00 btw, The frequently seen claim that they stand for "contents of address register" and "contents of decrement register" does not match the implementation, and the IBM 704 did not have a programmer-accessible address register. 11:45:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757bbb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:46:19 [citation needed] 11:46:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_704#Instruction_and_data_formats 11:47:12 CONS followed Type A instruction format 11:48:08 hmm python also has lambda feature 11:48:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.184.32] has joined #lisp 11:48:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.184.32] has quit [Changing host] 11:48:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:48:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48:32 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48:40 theos: it's not real lambda, and Guido will hunt you if you ask for a real one 11:48:49 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:49:11 p_l guido will hunt me? :s 11:49:14 stassats: of course CPR and CTR parts of the cell weren't exactly useful for normal symbolic code, more for internals 11:49:15 p_l: not real? 11:49:43 stassats: ok, "limited" compared to what most languages give you as anonymous functions or "lambda" 11:49:57 theos: Guido van Rossum, BDFL of Python 11:50:09 i'd say that python's lambda is more true to the lambda calculus than lisp's lambda 11:50:15 since it doesn't allow side-effects 11:51:13 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:35 That's untrue. 11:52:38 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.107.154] has joined #lisp 11:52:42 It doesn't allow statements. 11:52:56 It permits side-effecting expressions. 11:52:59 indeed. you can call a function with side effects from lambda 11:53:28 oh come on 11:53:31 They're both quite bogus in terms of LC. 11:53:44 But python's one is both bogus and crippled. 11:54:49 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:51 They should have been called 'anonymous procedures' rather than lambda. 11:55:00 leggo [~cgiirc@2001:41d0:1:e31e::] has joined #lisp 11:55:31 Zhivago: can't the language (CL) enforce such rules? side effects for one 11:55:45 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.27.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:55:48 No, and why should it? CL is promiscuously procedural. 11:56:55 No i don't mean the standard of the language, say when you want to implement a lambda with no side effects 11:56:56 You could write your own functional language in CL. 11:56:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:57:24 But CL has no support for expressing that a given expression is side-effect free. 11:58:05 does any language, other than haskell? 11:58:21 C++'s const methods :p 11:58:31 C++ const is a lie.... 11:58:31 I read about it before and i remember there were constructs that can enforce side effects, i am not sure 11:58:44 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:44 several languages strived for purity 11:58:46 ecraven you can happily write to stdout or delete files in const methods 11:58:56 Haskell was the odd duck by being lazy by default 11:58:57 Well, the pure ones don't need to express it. 11:59:06 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:17 c++ const is not enforced, D immutable does though 11:59:42 I expect it will become more popular with the rise of partially typed javascript. 11:59:50 In C++ const methods you can also modify members marked 'mutable' and just plain cast away your 'const'-ness and do whatever you like. 12:00:19 Yes, but then you'll get UB, I should expect, if you violate referential transparency. 12:00:46 I'm trying to bind to a broadcast address from Common Lisp. I've added my username to /etc/security/capabilities.conf in CAP_NET_ADMIN. What else do I need? 12:00:58 Kenjin: same as any other language. 12:01:01 kenjin: I'd suggest trying it in C first. 12:01:06 Not in C++. Compiler's not allowed to assume a 'const' method or 'const' parameter to a method left things unchanged. 12:01:14 kenjin: You should be able to find a working example to test there. 12:01:18 bummer, sorry, that was actually for #ubuntu, but thats ok :) 12:01:28 thanks! 12:07:39 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:11 -!- leggo [~cgiirc@2001:41d0:1:e31e::] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:09:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:10 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:40 -!- leo2007 [~leo@221.204.241.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:24 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 12:17:21 -!- daimrod [1002@sbrk.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:30 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 12:19:32 daimrod [1002@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:49 yep, from C is working :P 12:21:13 In that case, you can strace your CL to see what it's doing differently. 12:24:42 Zhivago: need to read the usocket code and see why I don't have permission 12:25:12 I'd personally start by reading the syscall transcript. 12:26:52 Zhivago: how do I do that? 12:28:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:28:54 man strace 12:28:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for strace. 12:30:01 thanks 12:30:57 roadie [~user@14.96.112.65] has joined #lisp 12:31:36 Zabaq [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:00 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:34:38 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:24 -!- 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[~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:46:23 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 14:49:38 bama_boy [~lonno@62.183.86.139] has joined #lisp 14:50:57 -!- bama_boy [~lonno@62.183.86.139] has left #lisp 14:52:19 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 14:52:53 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-xduthvkdutpjedkp] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 impomatic2 [~digital_w@31.185.189.137] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:07 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:01:17 erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has joined #lisp 15:01:45 any opinion on the discussion i'm having with the author of the lisp-unit library? https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/lisp-unit/pull/16 15:02:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:02:47 -!- impomatic2 is now known as impomatic 15:02:52 Looks like a smug bastard with his hand up there. 15:04:30 ? 15:04:46 is it worth investing in that library? 15:05:08 *|3b|* sees nothing noteworthy in that conversation so far 15:05:58 Fare: in lisp-unit? 15:06:39 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:10:03 SKC [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has joined #lisp 15:11:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:46 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:14:21 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:14:31 tara [~user@p578E7A81.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:08 -!- tara [~user@p578E7A81.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:36 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 15:15:37 -!- mgs [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 15:18:11 Blkt [~user@82.84.159.26] has joined #lisp 15:19:30 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:20:50 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:21:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:22:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:48 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:59 -!- masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-137-251.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:25:07 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-147-169.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:34 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:28:54 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 15:28:56 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:30:36 alama: use fiveam 15:30:47 -!- Zabaq [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:31:02 Kenjin: AFAIK you don't bind to a broadcast address, but only to a UDP port. Then, by using recvfrom(), you will see who sent you data. 15:31:40 asdf's (:source-registry (:tree (:home "work")) doesn't' search the symbolic links in work; is there a trivial alternative?  (i have some of by the work in misc dropbox, aerofs, etc synch'd folders) 15:31:41 at least, that's what I'd try to do. 15:31:53 flip214: I see. Thanks. 15:33:32 bhyde: I use the venerable symlink farm approach 15:33:34 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:41 (:directory (:home "work/systems")) 15:34:15 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 fe[nl]ix: asdf certainly has many choices, yes it does. 15:36:15 i must say i have some malaise about the various unit testing options for cl; i've looked at fiveam, clunit (which was motivated by Fare's prompting on the pro mailing list), and most recently lisp-unit 15:36:44 bhyde: for many projects, I have multiple source trees laying around so :tree wouldn't work 15:36:54 it would pick up one of them at random 15:37:10 alama: fiveam is by far the most used test library 15:37:40 fe[nl]ix: based on usage in, say, projects registered with quicklisp? 15:37:45 yes 15:37:51 and if you need some feature, send an email to our mailing list 15:38:10 How does eos relate? 15:38:13 for simple bug reports github is fine 15:38:27 *bhyde* recalls that choice makes us miserable 15:38:45 Xach: eos removed several features and is unmaintained 15:38:56 or was because Adlai just returned from the military service 15:39:17 so I declare it deprecated 15:40:08 fe[nl]ix: Is there still something to the motivation behind eos? As I understand it, it was to separate 5am from functionality not related to testing? 15:41:48 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 15:42:06 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:31 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:42:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:42:34 here's an example of whinging about five am's dependencies - http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=911 15:42:37 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 Posterdati [~antani@host166-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 -!- CrazyEddy [~organomag@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:43:07 I was a big fan of stefil until it got sucked into HCL 15:43:33 Ok, a quick check shows that fiveam requires only alexandria. 15:43:34 calling language lawyers 15:44:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:44:10 is there anywhere in the spec a requirement that the predicate used on strings to find symbols (in packages) is string= ? 15:44:12 *attila_lendvai* looks up HCL 15:44:32 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 alama: if you're bugged, maybe you can do some work improving the situation 15:44:51 (on my reading, the spec formally might even require EQL, which is obviously stupid and nothing would work if it were that. But is there anywhere something that says specifically string= ?) 15:45:14 Fare: i've submitted some pull requests to the lisp-unit guy 15:45:20 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: emergency breakout] 15:45:29 but i'm looking now (again) at fiveam 15:45:36 dlowe: my google fu failed... what is hcl? any links? it's not even on cliki 15:45:54 *Xach* guesses: hungarian common lisp 15:46:13 k0001_ [~k0001@host239.181-1-162.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 15:46:39 Xach is correct. 15:46:48 dlowe, what's HCL ? 15:47:05 wow, i must say i didn't know about this cl implementation 15:47:31 It's a tongue in cheek joke. There's a company in Hungary that made a large number of libraries all dependant on each other 15:47:35 heh... but hu.dwim.stefil only depends on alexandria and exports the usual defsomething macros also... 15:47:47 attila_lendvai: and requires hu.dwim.asdf 15:48:15 ah, right, and that 15:48:28 I have used hu.dwim.stefil in the past, and I liked the general idea a lot, though the dependencies were a pain (less I suppose with quicklisp today), and I was having a memory leak somehow in my test suite. 15:49:01 Fare: these days it's alexandria and hu.dwim.asdf only. 15:49:05 ok 15:49:11 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host78.181-1-166.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:49:43 -!- hugod [~user@67.51.76.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:50:21 no language lawyers? This isn't just for fun; I want to know if I can actually normalize (in the Unicode sense) strings before interning 15:50:32 *|3b|* isn't finding anything 15:51:25 copy-symbol says that the new name is string= to the original one 15:51:25 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:51:32 <|3b|> (aside from the implied but probably wrong EQL) 15:51:36 Krystof, I doubt the standard has anything to say about that, considering that all the work happened before unicode normalization was a discussion topic. 15:52:25 the standard could completely kill it if it said "symbol-name comparison is performed as if by string=" 15:52:25 you could issue an error on non-normalized strings. 15:52:31 I would think a version of Stefil that only depended on alexandria might be well-received 15:52:50 <|3b|> implementation isn't required to keep the original string used to create the first symbol though 15:52:53 but maybe I'm just being too fussy 15:53:10 "fiveam requires only alexandria"  :) that's nice 15:53:12 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:15 well, then what is the complaint of http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=911 ? is it just no longer true since the time the initial post of that thread was written? 15:54:23 alama: it is no longer true. 15:54:36 ah, i see 15:54:46 <|3b|> Krystof: actually, may imply not using string= 15:55:31 <|3b|> since string= implies char= which requires implementation-defined attributes to be the same, and 2.3.4 allows removing implementation-defined attributes while parsing symbols 15:55:32 for one thing, local-time hasn't used fiveam in a while 15:55:42 skunk_michi [~skunk_mic@pcphy21.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:00 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:56:10 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:27 |3b|: oh, nice! Thanks 15:56:54 maybe plan A is possible then 15:57:16 chandra [d0557065@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.85.112.101] has joined #lisp 15:57:23 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:51 hugod [~user@199.223.125.130] has joined #lisp 15:58:47 CrazyEddy [~carpus@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:59:00 <|3b|> though i suppose that could just mean INTERN wouldn't work for strings with attributes the reader would have stripped for a symbol, same way interning the string "foo" doesn't match the symbol that would be READ from "foo" 16:00:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:46 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-xjouhnbkntcajhce] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:53 i like the EXAMPLE at https://github.com/mcandre/cl-quickcheck 16:01:40 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.209.89] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 *|3b|* wonders if any unicode normalization could convert a string to or from being a 'potential number' 16:01:52 mrSpec [~Spec@80.123.140.214] has joined #lisp 16:01:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@80.123.140.214] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:02:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 fe[nl]ix: who maintains the fiveam webpage? 16:03:27 i.e., http://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/ 16:03:50 the link there for QuickCheck is busted 16:04:11 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:04:15 |3b|: Not with the standard readtable; the only possibility would be if a character decomposition includes a terminating macro character, and none of the combining characters would be terminating under the standard syntax I think 16:04:18 alama: I do 16:04:48 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.118.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:50 would you say that fiveam subsumes cl-quickcheck? 16:05:13 |3b|: though the spec might be silent on the character syntax type of non-base chars 16:05:13 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has joined #lisp 16:05:20 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 <|3b|> jasom: could the fractions decompose to / or do they use a special char? 16:05:45 |3b|: hold on, I got the table around here somewhere 16:05:53 unicode normalization leaves ascii totally unchanged 16:05:58 they use a special fraction slash 16:06:20 <|3b|> and no way to attach accents or whatever to arbitrary characters? 16:06:21 (and actually that's a compatibility decomposition, which would not be one normally used for normalization of program identifiers) 16:06:33 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:06:43 |3b|: there is always a way to attach accents to arbitrary characters, but it doesn't change under normalization 16:06:47 Xach: any ideas why my blog post from earlier does not show up in http://planet.lisp.org/rss20.xml ? 16:06:47 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:07:02 Xach: the primary goal of eos was to remove the dep on arnesi 16:07:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 16:07:12 |3b|: there are ways to attach accents to arbitrary characters, but since accents aren't terminating macro characters or valid characters in a potential number, that shouldn't affect the tokenization 16:07:15 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:20 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:07:43 <|3b|> jasom: was thinking more about : or / or . with stuff tacked onto it 16:07:43 normalization is the way to get e-acute (#\LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_E_WITH_ACUTE) to be the same as #\e #\COMBINING_ACUTE_ACCENT 16:07:43 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:46 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has joined #lisp 16:07:56 http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ 16:08:03 there's 4 normalization forms 16:08:25 |3b|: since there isn't a #\colon-with-acute-accent character, it can't be decomposed into #\colon #\combining_acute_accent 16:08:28 |3b|: You wont ever decompose that way 16:08:45 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:09:17 *|3b|* will stop wondering about it then :) 16:09:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:10:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:12 |3b|: Anyway if / or . had combining characters you could end up with (#\1 #\. #\combining-something) which wouldn't be a potential number 16:10:50 *jasom* checks if any terminating macro characters can result from decomposition 16:11:21 *bhyde* decides to see if ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf makes me happy 16:11:44 hlavaty`` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:13:26 alama: I don't know how featureful cl-quickcheck is 16:13:49 -!- hugod [~user@199.223.125.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:14:37 seems like it's not really "done" 16:14:53 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:16:03 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:45 |3b|: If you did the compatible expansions you could end up with it, but that's not normalization 16:17:01 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@pD9F98885.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:17:10 well, it is for nfkc/nfkd 16:17:42 e.g. (code-char #x2474) would expand to (1) 16:18:25 Krystof: string= comes from the definition of string designators, and expressions such as "The symbols named by the argument symbol-names " in clhs defpackage. 16:18:45 Krystof: right, so the ligatures would go from not potential numbers to potential numbers in the compatible decompositions 16:19:13 |3b|: under the compatibility decompostions it can happen, but I think not under canonical decompositions 16:19:54 As for normalization, I think you should definitely normalize them indeed! (perhaps even before interning, depending on your implementation choices). 16:20:25 ogamita: I can see that symbols have names that are strings; I don't see that it necessarily follows that there is only one string (under string=) which names a symbol 16:20:25 I mean, heck you have 2 which under compatibility mode is just 25 16:22:03 I guess it comes down to the definition of "same" for string, as clhs intern says: " If a symbol whose name is the same as string is already accessible in package, it is returned.". 16:22:19 yeah, that's what I meant when I said that a strict reading implied EQL 16:22:27 <|3b|> hmm, defpackage does mention string=, though in the opposite direction (can't have 2 symbols with string= names in :shadow etc 16:22:35 and "find-symbol locates a symbol whose name is string in a package. " 16:22:37 Krystof: no, "same" has multiple meanings in the clhs glossary, and here it clearly doesn't mean eql 16:23:02 *|3b|* read the glossary as saying "EQL unless otherwise specified" 16:23:12 <|3b|> for 'same' 16:23:18 the first meaning is "under a specified predicate"; the second is "under EQL"; the third is clearly not relevant 16:23:29 since there isn't a specified predicate, the only possible meaning is "under EQL" 16:23:34 Yes, but then the string= is only implied. 16:23:35 as I said, that is obviously nonsense 16:23:45 but it is what is in the document under a strict reading 16:24:01 Krystof: well, it cannot because implementation can use a copy of the string to name the symbol. 16:24:08 *jasom* thinks the predicate string= is implied by context 16:24:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:24:20 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@31.185.189.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:21 (let ((s "Hello")) (not (eql (symbol-name (intern s)) s))) is possible. 16:24:27 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:24:39 (and is usually the case too). 16:24:46 ogamita: can we assume that I know about the implementation of packages? 16:25:09 Of course, I don't say you don't. 16:26:08 jasom: I can well imagine that string= is what was in the standardizers' minds when they agreed what was going on... 16:26:09 My point is that since it specified that implementations can copy the symbol name, it cannot be "the same" under eql, it must be under another predicate. 16:26:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:26:40 yes, that's what I meant by "obviously stupid and nothing would work", half an hour ago 16:26:45 Krystof: what you're finding here is that it may be possible that a really case sensitive implementation would still be conforming, and that a lot of programs may not be conforming 16:26:54 At least to the letter. 16:27:38 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:27:58 I don't think so: I think it's possible that a case /insensitive/ implementation (using string-equal, for example) might be conforming. 16:28:12 but that would also be fairly stupid, and let's not go there 16:28:34 case sensitive implementations are definitely conforming 16:29:00 since all implementations known to us are case-sensitive, that's not too much of a stretch :) 16:29:01 <|3b|> ogamita: standard readtable specifies :upcase, and initial readtable is required to conform to that 16:29:02 (not (eql :|FOO| :|foo|)) <-- should be true 16:29:24 jasom: why? 16:29:33 (that's the question we're asking in this discussion). 16:30:02 because "FOO" and "foo" are not the same, under my definition of "same" which is clearly the right one 16:30:11 :-) 16:31:17 But since it's not clearly specified, we can imagine an implementation choosing string-equal instead. 16:31:21 <|3b|> 11.1.1.2.5 also mentions string= in context of 'same name', not sure if that constrains things though 16:31:39 impomatic [~digital_w@87.114.149.18] has joined #lisp 16:32:02 Bingo! 16:32:19 |3b| found it, "Name conflicts occur only between distinct symbols with the same name (under string=).". 16:32:26 damnation 16:32:41 no, that's OK too! 16:32:51 At least, it's specified. :-) 16:32:57 as long as we normalize, the symbols that look the same have the same name 16:33:04 <|3b|> that sounds like you are OK as long as you normalize before intening 16:33:18 language lawyer weasels rule OK 16:33:46 *|3b|* notes that the string= in COPY-SYMBOL is separate from the 'same' part 16:34:38 -!- hydan [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:39 all of this discussion is slowing me down from actually implementing this... 16:35:44 Are the examples in the clhs normative? 16:35:47 Well, I would say normalization should be done upon reading (decoding the utf-8 or whatever encoding), and this would imply that not all codepoint can be CHARACTERs. You would have to provide a (system:make-character vector-of-code-point) -> CHARACTER function. 16:35:55 jasom: not. 16:35:56 jasom: no 16:36:43 -!- SrPx [b1626a15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.98.106.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:22 normanrichards [~normanric@199.223.125.130] has joined #lisp 16:38:04 -!- CrazyEddy [~carpus@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [] 16:38:18 CrazyEddy [~nitrohydr@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 16:38:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~nitrohydr@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:25 CrazyEddy [~nitrohydr@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:38:39 A symbol may have any character in its name. <-- If you normalize, does that make this false? 16:38:59 ... possibly 16:39:17 wait, no 16:39:24 wait, possibly 16:39:46 yes, some single characters are canonically decomposed to other characters, I think 16:39:51 so they can never appear in normalized forms 16:40:34 e.g. U+2FA1D CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH-2FA1D which under canonical decomposition becomes U+2A600 16:41:02 *jasom* seems to recall angstrom as well 16:41:08 yes 16:41:15 Yuuhi [benni@pD9F98885.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:19 and ohm 16:41:32 jasom: well, AFAIK, there are no "character" in unicode, only code points and glyphs. 16:41:42 Eventually you just have to accept that having character as a datatype means that you're not going to be able to do it properly. 16:41:48 So we can establish our own (CL's) definition of characters. 16:42:09 ogamita: but there are characters in lisp, and if characters map one-to-one to unicode code-points then you have a sane implementatin 16:42:26 Not unicode-wise, I'd say. 16:42:42 ogamita: you think it should be glyphs? 16:42:44 jasom: Except for the semantics ... :) 16:42:45 that's sane too 16:42:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:42:56 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@24.61.81.138] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 16:43:16 ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 16:43:22 I'd prefer to have a more complex definition of CHARACTER namely a character can have several representations as different codepoint sequence (depending on the normalization) (as it has different byte sequences representations depending on the encoding). 16:43:39 ogamita: Why not just get rid of character entirely? 16:43:57 It isn't as though there's a coherent definition in any case. 16:44:10 Zhivago: I know you'd like to just have substrings of length 1. I don't think that solves the problem really. And wrapping substrings of length 1 in a character data type is not a big deal. 16:44:37 Anyway if your implementation required all strings to be normalized then it's a non-issue 16:44:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:44:45 Even with substrings of length 1, you have to deal with the various representations of the same string. 16:44:53 Actually, I'd prefer to just have strings. 16:44:59 not having characters is probably sane, except that as an implementor I would then have to do all the same work I'm currently doing anyway 16:45:05 Zhivago: That's more a question of API. 16:45:14 I guess no-one else would have to (other than each of the other implementors) 16:45:29 Aren't you doing freedom source? 16:47:00 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@199.223.125.130] has quit [] 16:47:45 normanrichards [~normanric@199.223.125.130] has joined #lisp 16:48:55 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:19 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:52:13 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@199.223.125.130] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:52 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8DFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:56 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:02:52 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:03:17 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:03:49 A sane language uses utf-8 to store all strings, and provides iterators that can iterate over it by encoding-byte in arbitrary encoding, unicode codepoint, and grapheme. 17:04:45 normanrichards [~normanric@199.223.125.130] has joined #lisp 17:04:49 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-wsqlgzzmbdswsrsk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:07:27 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8DFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:09:58 ascii should be good enough for everybody 17:10:02 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-64-134-164.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:08 ascii and koi8-r, interestingly, koi8-r is constructed in a way that if you cut the 8th bit away, you'll get latin counterparts of cyrillic letters 17:13:17 wow interesting 17:13:22 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:14:40 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.94.55] has joined #lisp 17:14:55 utf-8? I'd use some protobufs-like encoding so my strings are ready to ship 17:14:55 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ndqciwlftgcdkuih] has joined #lisp 17:15:27 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 17:15:48 Fare: protobufs-like encoding?... You mean utf-8? 17:16:19 Anyways, doesn't really matter what the impl uses internally, just so long as the API doesn't expose random access by codepoint-index as a fundamental part of the API. 17:17:24 I was thinking of a universal encoding that can encode any integer, can store ascii in 1 byte, and any unicode char in 3 bytes 17:17:36 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@199.223.125.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:44 and yes, only expose the byte-walking 17:18:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:18:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:19:22 Anyways, utf-8 is better because much of the time when dealing with strings, you'll be taking it as input from another system, or sending it as output to another system. And that'll be using utf-8. 17:19:51 So, you can avoid re-encoding if you just use utf-8 as the internal representation too 17:20:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 H4ns: Writing a new Excel file parser was out of the question? try http://logand.com/git/cl-olefs.git/ it understands ole files, can parse ppt and doc, excel shouldnt be so difficult to add, patches welcome :-D 17:20:57 foom: utf-8b for not-quite-utf-8 input? 17:23:10 ooh, random fact about spreadsheets; all current spreasheets treat 1900 as a leap-year, since Lotus-123 used 1900-01-01 as its epoch and assumed 1900 was a leap-year 17:23:53 rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-005-191.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:58 s/all/most 17:24:32 pkhuong: sure, sounds sane. It gives a valid (non-exception-raising and pretty sane) response to having data in your string which isn't actually utf-8 conformant, which makes things a lot easier. 17:24:55 And if you do want to verify that some input is actually utf-8, that can be trivially done as an input pass. 17:25:09 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:25:09 -!- rvchangue_ is now known as rvchangue 17:25:10 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-005-191.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:25:10 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 17:25:25 H4ns: infrequent polling 17:27:12 I turned polling down because some of the bigger hosting sites were blocking me. I might turn it back up a bit. 17:28:45 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-205-108-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 ikki [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ikki] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:32 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b52e2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:30 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:36:03 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:38:45 Xach: ok, i was just wondering, thanks 17:40:02 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-64-134-164.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8DFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-odpynibiggfkzqhc] has joined #lisp 17:43:45 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-64-134-164.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:47:26 H4ns: thanks for posting. 17:48:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:48:27 but for some reason, the twitter gateway does not seem to work :/ 17:48:37 Probably my fault too! 17:48:44 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:21 i'll look at it later and blame you if applicable ;) 17:49:31 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:49:56 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:51:16 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-134-118.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host239.181-1-162.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:09 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:29 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:23 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:34 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b52e2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:55:42 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 *stassats* releases another bunch of commonqt changes: faster signal emission, some bug fixes, better asdf integration 17:56:51 i should make actual releases or something 17:57:34 instead of "each commit to the master is a release, commits to the branches are testing" 17:57:54 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 17:59:07 and start a blog where i can describe changes, instead of #lisp 17:59:18 yes to all 18:00:44 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ndqciwlftgcdkuih] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:01:56 ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 though, i'm growing increasingly dissatisfied with the way smoke works 18:02:23 *fe[nl]ix* can't think of a suitable joke 18:02:43 you have to inhale? 18:02:47 sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 "i know, i'll write my own" 18:03:12 -!- ck__ [~ck@dslb-188-097-131-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03:23 -!- skunk_michi [~skunk_mic@pcphy21.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de] has left #lisp 18:03:46 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-205-108-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:59 stassats: how about adding C++ support to CFFI ? 18:04:26 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:04:49 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:04:54 I can't imagine implementing the mangling rules to be that difficult 18:04:54 it'll either be c-plus-plussy and ugly, or lispy and slow, not sure i want either 18:05:00 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:40 i discovered that i can reuse many parts of Qt functionality, but use my own object model 18:06:16 though, a great deal will have to be reimplemented 18:06:39 stassats: not necessarily, you can certainly make it efficient if it's only bit-fiddling and memory copying 18:07:25 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-205-108-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:08:34 still, there will be a mismatch between clos and c++ object system 18:09:08 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:03 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has joined #lisp 18:10:31 the way i think to do it is to have, say, push-button class, with a gf RENDER, and it will call QStyle::drawControl, so it Qt does all the drawing and CL will do all the control where and what to draw 18:11:52 of course, it's easier and faster when Qt does both, but when you wan to override the way things are done you end up with a similar arrangement anyway, performance wise 18:12:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:13:01 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-lsqodmksnlrnoewq] has joined #lisp 18:13:19 sadly, there's only a handful of people using commonqt and i don't get much of feedback 18:13:45 -!- sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:00 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-64-134-164.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:14:09 sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has joined #lisp 18:14:19 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 18:15:18 -!- sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:50 actually, i could reuse mcclim for the control part, but i'm not a fan of neither clim, nor mcclim 18:16:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:13 jakayeee [~khuram_la@182.177.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has joined #lisp 18:17:43 -!- jakayeee [~khuram_la@182.177.65.90] has left #lisp 18:17:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:22:46 does anyone actually use CLIM? 18:23:14 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 18:23:33 not voluntaraly 18:24:32 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:55 stassats: you can implement the C++ object model using the MOP 18:25:10 -!- sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:25:47 i'm not really a fan of the C++ OO 18:27:11 sastrone [~tyoverby@205.175.97.207] has joined #lisp 18:27:14 sure, but it's what Qt uses 18:27:49 the general idea is to have a lisp GUI framework with a Qt backend 18:27:58 not for commonqt, but for something else 18:29:12 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:00 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b52e2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:54 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboq170.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 Hi, in asdf, a component of type :system is supposed to be another asdf system, right? 18:32:30 so I should be able to do something like 18:32:45 :components ((:system :cl-who)  ) 18:32:53 i know I can use :depends-on also, 18:33:07 but in this case I want to enforce the ordering on the depended-upon systems. 18:33:18 :depends-on doesn't guarantee the ordering, or does it? 18:33:20 what are you trying to solve? 18:33:34 trying to load a list of systems in a particular order 18:33:42 why does it matter? 18:33:52 possibly with some source files in between 18:34:15 why are you answering questions with other questions? 18:34:19 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.95] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 but can you answer them? 18:34:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:35:15 yes, but why do you need to know? 18:35:36 do you want to solve the problem? 18:35:53 if so, you need to describe it, not the solution you came up with 18:36:13 gendl: you're asking about what you think the solution is, not how to solve the problem 18:36:28 gendl: so a smart person will instead try to figure out the problem, not 'answer your solution' 18:36:34 ok here are the facts: 18:36:42 i have a list of asdf systems. 18:37:02 i don't want to modify or touch them in any way. 18:37:24 now i want to make a "wrapper" system 18:37:31 which loads these systems in a particular order 18:37:36 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:36 with some initialization code in between 18:37:49 why does the order in which those systems are loaded matter? 18:37:54 are they badly written? 18:39:02 because they depend on each other. 18:39:40 so, they will be loaded automatically in the order which ensures that the dependencies are loaded first 18:39:51 gendl: if system A has a :depends-on on system B, loading system A will load system B before loading system A 18:40:03 SKC [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has joined #lisp 18:40:19 yes of course. 18:40:38 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:14 but if system A has :depends-on (:b :c) 18:42:28 there is no implied ordering of the loading of :b and :c, is there? 18:42:36 asdf might decide to load :c first, or :b first. 18:42:40 depends on whether c depends on b or not 18:42:40 that's correct 18:42:54 gendl: correct. however, if B really depends on C, why doesn't it have that in its depends-on clause? 18:43:05 yes, true. 18:43:09 and if it doesn't, why does it matter which order they load in? 18:43:23 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ykxnduexfmcgirpu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:43:27 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 18:43:44 it's when you have a -> b -> c -> a then you have real issues. 18:44:12 well that kind of circularity can't ever make sense 18:44:18 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:45:05 anyway thanks for making me back off and think about the problem from the beginning 18:45:11 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:14 instead of jumping to a conclusion about what is the solution 18:45:56 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 18:48:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:51 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-205-2-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:50:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:19 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-205-108-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:55:05 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nxrqgopafodzvroi] has joined #lisp 18:57:59 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:58:32 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-xduthvkdutpjedkp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:00:17 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-lsqodmksnlrnoewq] has quit [Ping timeout: 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19:50:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:52:11 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:14 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-66.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:24 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nxrqgopafodzvroi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:52:34 dnolen [~user@199.223.125.130] has joined #lisp 19:54:17 anyone ever tried to use mozilla's persona authentication stuff with hunchentoot? 19:55:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-207.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:59:10 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 20:00:30 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:01:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:01:37 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-209-5.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] 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Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 20:29:19 -!- dnolen [~user@199.223.125.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:28 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-209-5.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:30:06 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1223-176.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:30:35 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:31 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:31:44 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 20:34:35 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:34:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:35:53 mstevens [~mstevens@kindle.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:35:53 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@kindle.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:35:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:39:21 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.148.0] has joined #lisp 20:40:08 SKC [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has joined #lisp 20:40:25 zanoni_ [~quassel@187.2.154.213] has joined #lisp 20:41:31 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:33 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@46.208.85.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:42:29 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:41 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:45:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 dioxirane [~ln@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 20:45:55 -!- zanoni_ [~quassel@187.2.154.213] has left #lisp 20:46:32 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:40 meiji11 [~user@142.66.56.118] has joined #lisp 20:48:14 is there a way, using loop, to collect items from a list that maximize the same function? 20:48:35 that is, they all attain the same maximal value when submitted to a function 20:48:45 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:48:48 -!- chandra [d0557065@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.85.112.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:57 -!- dioxirane [~ln@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 20:52:40 -!- naeg is now known as naeg|afk 20:53:08 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:21 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.224.184] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:53:54 meiji11: i don't *think* there's a built-in for it. i'd probably walk over the list twice and use maximize. i may be wrong though. 20:54:00 -!- hugod [~user@199.223.125.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:54:18 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:56:36 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.148.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:04 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:58:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:40 ok, thanks. 21:00:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:00:50 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-gkiwgkfekugiiwdq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:06 -!- anonus [~anonymous@citadel.niflheim.info] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 21:02:45 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:20 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:42 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:05:43 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 21:06:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 21:07:53 fightback [~david@163-116.199-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:08:11 anonus [~user@citadel.niflheim.info] has joined #lisp 21:08:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:27 -!- fightback [~david@163-116.199-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 21:09:07 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.101] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has joined #lisp 21:10:27 GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:28 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:30 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:07 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.101] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:11:49 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.101] has joined #lisp 21:12:48 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.209.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:48 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.64.134.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:19 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:52 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:20 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 21:15:30 chandra [d0557065@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.85.112.101] has joined #lisp 21:15:54 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8DFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:41 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:16:46 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:18:22 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:48 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 21:23:53 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-130-176.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-130-176.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:59 hugod [~user@199.223.125.130] has joined #lisp 21:26:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:27:18 I wonder if iterate could manage that efficiently. 21:29:10 meiji11: http://paste.lisp.org/+2X1P 21:29:40 But yes, ISTR there's a more concise expression using iterate. 21:29:53 efficiently? ITERATE? I wonder if it can manage myself, and not for the simple task, but just to see ITERATE do something that is effecient when LOOP can not :) 21:29:53 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:13 -!- GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:13 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 21:30:20 akovalenko [~user@77.51.3.120] has joined #lisp 21:31:07 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:24 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:28 wow pjb, thanks. 21:32:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-207.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:54 Once you have loop you don't need anything else. Or, you can write all the CL package just with loop :-) 21:34:03 (as sicl does) 21:34:31 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:35:38 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 21:36:11 *drewc* very very very rarely uses the advanced form of LOOP, but when he does he is glad it exists. 21:36:36 -!- erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has quit [Quit: erikc] 21:36:59 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:01 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:30 i do tend to use the (loop :for (key value) :on plist :by #'cddr) to iterate the plist ... that is somewhat advanced I guess 21:38:20 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:30 -!- ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-odpynibiggfkzqhc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:32 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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