00:03:29 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:40 -!- mc40 [~mc@host86-140-10-201.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:08:58 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 00:09:36 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:10:18 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:13:04 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:21 kiwnix [~egarcia@unaffiliated/kiwnix] has joined #lisp 00:15:54 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:20:03 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:45 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.148.201.250] has joined #lisp 00:24:48 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-188-252.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:25:33 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.71.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:25:33 knob [~knob@66-50-170-105.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:33 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 00:26:13 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 00:27:12 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has joined #lisp 00:27:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.237.140] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:31:21 -!- [1]Skrylar [HydraIRC@cpe-70-113-115-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:35:29 -!- Thra11_ [~quassel@87.113.125.35] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 00:38:55 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 00:40:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 00:42:41 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:44:22 bhyde: not a big sbcl user, eh? 00:44:52 nope; ccl & recently lisp works 00:45:09 bhyde: i'm trying to figure out the point of the #. in hmac-sha-n - is that a performance thing? 00:45:20 *bhyde* looks... 00:45:56 a way to avoid a global or something? i don't quite get it. 00:46:27 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:46:36 staticly allocating it at compile time so there is only one copy 00:47:17 not thread safe though :) 00:47:46 Would load-time-value be a portable way to do it? 00:47:58 e.g. http://random-state.net/log/3507100003.html 00:48:38 do you fear/suspect/know it's not portable 00:49:03 fasl files can have quite large data structures carried along in them 00:49:17 bhyde: I know #. is not portable, because SBCL fatally warns on modifying constant data. 00:49:25 *bhyde* has never used load-time-value  that could be fun 00:49:31 ok, i'll change it 00:49:59 Next Mary Chung's dinner we have to introduce by usernames, btw 00:50:10 l-t-v means that whatever it is will be computed at load time and not read time, though 00:56:05 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 00:57:38 jasom: how baked is cl-redo? 01:00:56 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:01:37 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:10 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 01:07:46 Xach: it's now less clever 01:08:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:08:55 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 01:09:40 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:06 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:02 *Xach* recranks 01:12:08 hooray, builds! 01:12:17 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:12:22 Hello all! 01:12:43 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:13:01 Hi tro 01:13:34 joy 01:14:05 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:14:12 I've got a question that I told a friend I'd find the answer too but I can't remember where I read it. I saw in an article recently, reference to a type system that someone made in common lisp, but I can't find the example in particular, does anyone know of any such library? 01:14:22 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:14:31 *bhyde* notices that load-time-value provides a means to create a lambda in the null lexical environment, that seems useful 01:14:31 What's the article? 01:14:33 I've given up looking for a particular one, but I'd like to hear if anyone knows of interesting examples. 01:14:41 I don't remember sadly. 01:15:00 That doesn't sound familiar, but I was browsing https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.types today. 01:15:35 unfortunately it's just a toy right now... 01:15:38 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:17:28 Damn, my memory may be playing tricks on me, may have been a scheme article, I'll head across and ask there. 01:17:31 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has joined #lisp 01:17:58 speaking of which, anyone happen to know if there's a name for kinds that are never subtypes of bottom and top never subtypes? or do mainstream type theorists not bother with bottom and top. 01:20:39 ncw [~ncw@63.239.94.10] has joined #lisp 01:21:27 based on http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20070219/044101.html , I think they definitely bother with top and bottom 01:23:24 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:28 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:33 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:29 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:27:57 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:08 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:21 well, that's sorta creepy, and it's probably indicative of how much i've been thinking about this that my second response is that haskell doesn't have top or bottom 01:34:34 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:49 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 01:35:18 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:35:57 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:38:57 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 01:39:08 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40:23 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:40:58 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:42:48 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:43:34 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:44:54 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.81.32] has joined #lisp 01:48:15 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:08 techlife [techlife@218.59.97.50] has joined #lisp 01:52:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:53:41 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 01:57:18 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.97.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:59:51 -!- kiwnix [~egarcia@unaffiliated/kiwnix] has left #lisp 02:03:09 techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 02:05:48 - 02:06:25  02:08:56 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 02:10:30 -!- dnolen [~user@199.106.164.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:57 meiji11 [~user@d75-158-40-174.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:27 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:12:30 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:13:43 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 02:21:16 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:36 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:35 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:30:54 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 02:33:12 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:07 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:38:13 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:59 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 02:39:42 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:42:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:42:59 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:39 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-177-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:53:04 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: bleeding] 02:54:17 are reader macros documented in cltl2? 02:56:37 meiji11: yes 02:57:54 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_set__1.htm 02:58:36 meiji11: why cltl2 in particular? 03:02:12 -!- Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:25 Xach, just curious. I was looking through it the other night and couldn't seem to find any mention of them. the scan doesn't include an index, for some reason. 03:05:46 [1]Skrylar [HydraIRC@cpe-70-113-115-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:10 -!- [1]Skrylar [HydraIRC@cpe-70-113-115-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:26 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-249-125.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:08:58 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 03:08:59 pity, some of the best jokes are in the index. 03:09:41 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 03:10:07 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:11:00 meiji11: section 22.1.5 has some details 03:11:20 thanks, I'll check that out. 03:12:43 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:14:00 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has joined #lisp 03:18:29 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:26 -!- xjiujiu 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tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 05:12:39 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:15:05 grrr... I found an incompatibility between uiop and asdf < 2.012 05:15:09 should I care? 05:15:41 -!- meiji11 [~user@d75-158-40-174.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:26 only matters when uiop is used w/o upgrading asdf first. 05:16:37 (and indeed without upgrading asdf at all) 05:21:16 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 05:40:31 agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:50 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:29 -!- Devon [~Devon@182.239.65.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:43 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:02:17 ncw [~ncw@63.239.94.10] has joined #lisp 06:06:17 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:10:28 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:14:11 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 06:14:57 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:20:58 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.251.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:22:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:22:52 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:06 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has left #lisp 06:24:07 Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.165.146] has joined #lisp 06:25:54 seangrove [~user@182.221.39.188] has joined #lisp 06:26:16 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.133.85] has joined #lisp 06:26:23 teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has joined #lisp 06:27:21 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:27:49 -!- ncw [~ncw@63.239.94.10] has quit [] 06:33:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.133.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:42 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:35:55 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:37:28 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8C17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:48:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8C17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:48:36 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8C17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:11 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:44 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.22.248] has joined #lisp 06:49:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:49:57 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:00 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c50:7372:b3ee:137e] has left #lisp 07:00:40 CoughSyrup [~csyrup@174-24-77-242.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:02 (pseudo code warning) st. paddy's day = drink; st. paddy's day += catholic; st. paddy's day += sunday; catholic != drink WHEN sunday; 07:01:04 irony ? yes : no 07:01:30 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 07:02:20 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8C17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:54 antgreen [~green@64.56.251.86] has joined #lisp 07:04:29 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:20 rsriniva [~rsriniva@117.192.108.5] has joined #lisp 07:06:26 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b1178.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:07:11 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 07:08:52 hello lispers! I am looking for a relatively recent tutorial on how to write a web app. I found some good ones like adam petersen's and msnyder but they are 2008'ish? guessing hunchentoot API has changed since then 07:09:37 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.22.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:10:32 i have ccl+SLIME+emacs setup perfectly on Mac. Have QL installed and working. I see a ton of systems that are useful but I am looking for a good tutorial that demonstrates front end view rendering+controller+ORM or something of that sort 07:11:19 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:11:50 i don't think such a tutorial exists. 07:12:17 this is due to the fact that most people just create their own mudball/framework 07:13:28 agree. I am looking for tips on what people have used and their experience 07:13:49 i have written my own database and web framework 07:13:57 github? 07:14:06 the database is documented (bknr-datastore), the web framework is not. 07:14:39 rsriniva: https://github.com/hanshuebner/bknr-datastore 07:14:43 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:15:12 thanks 07:15:16 ignore what the readme says about clbuild, it is in quicklisp 07:15:21 i really can't come up with any complaints about the lisp package system 07:16:09 i just transparently extended #'INTERSECTION to allow intersections of things besides lists even though it's not generic 07:16:30 and i don't mess with the behavior any other package expects because that shadowing is local to my package 07:16:35 now that's pretty cool 07:23:40 -!- rsriniva [~rsriniva@117.192.108.5] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:24:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:24:40 -!- Skrylar [HydraIRC@cpe-70-113-115-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 07:26:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:28:13 akovalen` [~user@77.51.7.215] has joined #lisp 07:30:39 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:32:11 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:20 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-1-213.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:35 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gpzfgvhnwbfkixry] has joined #lisp 07:36:41 -!- akovalen` [~user@77.51.7.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:49:22 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:49:22 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:49:22 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:51:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:52:36 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-jkrwyhokzqqgaqpb] has joined #lisp 07:54:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:10 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.81.32] has left #lisp 07:56:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:01:30 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 08:01:37 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:03:10 akovalen` [~user@77.51.7.215] has joined #lisp 08:03:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.139] has joined #lisp 08:03:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.139] has quit [Changing host] 08:03:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:04:36 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:09 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 08:07:18 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:08:07 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 08:09:05 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:22 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 08:11:31 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 08:11:41 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:52 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:13:18 -!- akovalen` [~user@77.51.7.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:13:38 hello, anyone using any code from https://github.com/dbmcclain? what type of license he uses? i'd like to steal a file or two. 08:14:52 or maybe i better ask him. 08:15:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:16:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:17:21 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 08:17:46 <|3b|> yeah, looks like .asd files say 'all rights reserved' rather than allowing any particular use, so probably should ask if license matters 08:22:00 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.159.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:58 it came up in the lispworks mailing list. I think he intends a very open licence. 08:24:48 well, as long as there is no license, intention does not matter too much 08:25:31 Right, but an email might suffice for a nice denouement. 08:25:35 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:04 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:18 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 08:29:33 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:33:37 morning! 08:36:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-206-141.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:37:21 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:02 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 08:41:42 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:41:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:41:52 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:42:43 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:44:20 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 08:46:18 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 08:47:15 setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.130] has joined #lisp 08:48:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:48:46 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:50:58 -!- xan___ [~xan@80.174.78.158.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52:06 -!- CoughSyrup [~csyrup@174-24-77-242.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52:09 nostoi [~nostoi@65.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:06 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 08:53:46 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:54:59 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:56:16 peterhil` [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 08:56:37 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.251.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:57:11 -!- agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:57:23 taraz [~user@p578E6D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:07 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 09:01:07 agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:28 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:01:49 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 09:01:52 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 09:04:36 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0022ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:48 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 09:09:03 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 09:09:23 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-235-122.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:12:45 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:22 keep [~yamhih@113.96.118.37] has joined #lisp 09:15:22 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:50 oGMo: when using c2ffi, are you running clang with asserts enabled? I got an assert failure when using -M... 09:16:31 plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has joined #lisp 09:18:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:55 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@65.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 09:24:22 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25:49 -!- plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 09:26:19 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.158.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:30:25 plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has joined #lisp 09:38:36 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 09:39:04 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:10 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:42:11 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:38 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:43:27 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 09:46:30 -!- keep [~yamhih@113.96.118.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:46:40 -!- plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has left #lisp 09:47:30 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:52:20 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:52:21 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:48 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 09:54:00 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:54:06 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:54:27 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 10:01:00 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:05:10 frotzy [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has joined #lisp 10:05:14 dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:05:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:09:05 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 10:09:43 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:53 dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:13:07 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:13:22 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:16:18 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 10:17:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:21:14 dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:21:58 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:35 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012222.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:34 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 10:31:12 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:05 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 10:40:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:42:47 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:43:24 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 10:43:52 Hello 10:44:12 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.180] has joined #lisp 10:44:21 -!- taraz [~user@p578E6D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:44:45 -!- frotzy [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:49:53 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 10:50:37 I started reading On Lisp from Paul Graham and I am wondering - he writes his functions so that they tail recurse saying most of the implementations' compilers can optimize such code. Is this still true? Has anything changed in those 20 years since the book was written? 10:51:40 writing tail recursive functions in CL still doesn't make much sense, as it didn't 20 years ago as well 10:52:17 <|3b|> many implementations can do TCO when compiling code, but it isn't required like in scheme, and not all implementations compile all the time 10:52:53 <|3b|> and using tail recursion to implement iteration is generally considered bad style by CL programmers from what i've seen 10:53:04 ordinary loops are more concise, clear and often faster, even if tail calls are optimized away 10:53:53 does that mean I should stop reading this book right now? :) 10:54:04 yes, it's not a good first book 10:54:14 i read PCL first 10:54:16 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:54:23 minion: please tell xificurC about PAIP 10:54:24 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 10:55:03 <|3b|> has anyone told the cliki2 authors about that feature minion tries to use being missing? 10:55:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:55:29 no idea 10:55:52 if you want to be the one, minion tries to access http://www.cliki.net/PAIP?source 10:56:24 i can change minion, if the parameter becomes slightly different 10:56:39 but i have no desire to parse HTML 10:56:41 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:57 so you're saying stassats`that paip is a good second book? looks scary to my eyes 10:57:23 xificurC: it is good, and you can skip the first chapter, since you've read PCL 10:58:26 so even though its about AI programming it will be useful in other ways? 10:58:39 it's not about AI programming 10:58:48 it's about Common Lisp programming 10:59:15 ok 10:59:25 thanks a lot 10:59:51 it uses early AI programs for case studies, but you won't learn much about modern AI techniques 11:00:30 minion: have you stopped beating your wife? 11:00:31 i have 11:00:33 I just want to learn the language and its good practices 11:00:58 and then somehow somewhere start using it :) 11:02:09 xificurC: start writing stuff. 11:02:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:03:21 zorkmoid: I write bad code, I'd like to read a bit more and see if it helps 11:03:28 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:04:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:04:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:09:07 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:59 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:12:41 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:23 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:27:02 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30:48 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 11:31:11 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:44 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:26 -!- tinnery24 [~tinnery24@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:36:40 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:49 impomatic2 [~digital_w@211.25.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:52 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@123.177.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:39:11 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:08 if you know you write bad code, then you already know enough 11:41:18 hmm 11:41:50 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-123-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:42:06 ck_ [~ck@dslb-094-219-150-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:07 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:45:10 taraz [~user@p578E6D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:01 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 11:49:23 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:49:47 does one need to learn another languages after learning CL? or is CL a complete language? 11:51:41 <|3b|> CL is turing complete, so you don't /need/ to learn other languages, but that doesn't mean there aren't things to be learned from them 11:51:42 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:52 theos: Someone who stops learning is dead. In less morbid words, Turing equivalence lets you make practically any language from any language. But again, one should never stop learning 11:53:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:54:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:55:18 p_l yes thats why i used the term "need" instead of "want". i needed to know if CL alone can be used to do everything. i think thats what |3b| means by "turing complete" :) 11:56:51 theos: well, it definitely can fit a *LOT* of niches 11:56:52 :) 11:56:56 (and not only niches) 11:58:02 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:58:02 <|3b|> aside from education, one reason you might want to learn/use other languages is that with more popular languages, it is more likely someone has already written code to do whatever it is you want to do at any given moment 11:59:40 Thra11 [~quassel@46.208.6.85] has joined #lisp 11:59:49 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:31 strictly speaking, CL, nor any language is turing complete. 12:00:49 is it or is it not? :) 12:00:52 <|3b|> zorkmoid: sure it is, even if no implementations are 12:00:55 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-134-118.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 |3b|: if you phrase it like that, then sure :-) 12:01:25 <|3b|> same as any other language that doesn't specify a finite memory or run time limit 12:01:46 and turing machines don't GC, that's why CL standard doesn't say anything about it 12:02:29 what is GC? 12:02:29 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-1-213.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:06 nothingy ou need to worry about :-) 12:03:13 maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has joined #lisp 12:03:40 <|3b|> theos: there are also considerations beyond the scope of the language itself that might affect language choice, for example current CL implementations tend to be bad at interfacing with C++, and can't make tiny eecutables 12:03:45 <|3b|> *executables 12:03:49 <|3b|> 'GC 12:03:58 <|3b|> 'GC' = Garbage Collection 12:03:58 antgreen [~green@64.56.251.86] has joined #lisp 12:04:20 oh 12:04:26 fasls are executable, and they are not particularly large 12:04:42 <|3b|> stassats`: you know what i mean :p 12:04:52 i wont be using C or C++ code anyway :) 12:05:11 <|3b|> theos: not even from the OS? 12:05:13 (i try to avoid those languages) 12:05:15 stassats`: I await the upcoming distribution of standard SBCL runtime with Firefox ;) 12:05:16 the only problem is that for some implementations fasl format is not stable at all 12:05:23 -!- v_ [~v@61.173.110.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:05:36 |3b| trying not to :) 12:05:41 well, C is easy, it's the C++ that is wonky 12:06:07 i donno why but i dislike C for some reason :/ 12:06:11 theos: what you mean by *those*, complicated you mean maybe? 12:06:40 or because they are static typed? 12:06:47 nan_ those as in the popular languages :) i try to stay away from very popular things 12:07:47 *|3b|* wonders which unpopular CPU you use 12:07:58 you dont wanna know :) 12:08:08 VIA? 12:08:20 *|3b|* supposes sbcl still runs on a few not-as-popular architectures 12:08:47 <|3b|> seems like avoiding x86/x8664 and arm would be pretty limiting though 12:09:00 naa, its intel. i will change cpus later on :) 12:09:10 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 12:09:27 you should switch to Esperanto, too 12:09:32 theos: my first language was c++ and i started not because it as popular but they said it is hard but when you are good at it, it *pays* off... well it wasn't... 12:09:55 nan_ it didnt pay off? 12:10:07 <|3b|> 'pay' is another common reason to learn languages besides CL :/ 12:10:09 or not, esperanto is the most popular of non-popular languages 12:10:14 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:10:42 True, if you define popular language as being more popular than esperanto. 12:10:51 stassats` as in spoken language? 12:12:12 (i am not against popular stuff. i just try to stay away from them. as much as i can_ 12:12:36 It sounds just as stupid as the converse, imho. 12:12:56 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:13:35 i'd rather choose the best stuff (or at least best value), regardless of popularity 12:13:38 maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has joined #lisp 12:13:39 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 12:13:55 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:14:08 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 sometimes, there is value in popularity 12:14:33 afaik, popular stuff is not best stuff. but thats offtopic 12:14:53 theos: it didn't. the most important c++ feature is templates yet it is so painful, incomplete you can't imagine. 12:15:47 nan_ :D 12:15:48 theos: D language improving the mechanism quite a bit but still it is not macro 12:18:14 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:40 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.165.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23:00 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:25:27 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:28:51 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:56 paines [~paines@h-62.96.202.36.host.de.colt.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:11 hi 12:33:57 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:46 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:36:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:36:19 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.196.128] has joined #lisp 12:36:39 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:37:11 v_ [~v@61.173.110.43] has joined #lisp 12:38:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:39:12 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 12:43:24 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:43:41 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:31 i hate anything that has to do anything with html. 12:49:05 once you generate it automatically from lisp, it's not so bad anymore. I found exscribe was nice, though these days I'm moving to scribble. 12:55:38 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 12:58:20 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:07:09 Fare: i dislike it still .. :-( 13:09:11 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 13:10:03 -!- paines [~paines@h-62.96.202.36.host.de.colt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:55 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 13:12:47 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:51 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:26 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:22:34 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: supernova explosion] 13:24:21 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:27:56 that's funny, I actually don't mind hand-writing html5. I find it quite pleasant. 13:28:23 and the separation of layers is important enough to me that I avoid using Lisp to generate it. 13:28:24 what tipped me into writing exscribe was footnotes 13:28:32 I *hate* (re)numbering footnotes 13:28:37 in plain html 13:29:10 *stassats`* doesn't like footnotes in html 13:30:48 it is tedious to do stuff like ajax, javascript, and what not i find ... and talking back and forth with databases 13:30:58 Fare: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/HTML/Element/blockquote#attr-cite ? 13:31:54 zorkmoid: once you actually get used to it, the tedium goes away and the code is trivial and unboilerplatey. My experience is that it only seemed that way when I was getting started. 13:32:05 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:32:10 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:32:54 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:27 getting enough stuff to start being productive can be slow 13:33:35 I guess that's how Rails became so popular 13:33:42 stassats`, what if you're digitizing a text that has footnotes? 13:33:48 -!- impomatic2 [~digital_w@211.25.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: impomatic2] 13:34:00 sykopomp: dunno, i've been working with cl for a long long time, i find this web business tedious like hell 13:34:02 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboi142.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 Fare: see cite= 13:35:04 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:10 Fare: seems like i don't like footnotes at all, at least the ones which you want to read 13:35:12 p_l: what is rails? 13:36:36 zorkmoid: a very popular, but full of flaws web framework in ruby. fwiw it made a lot of stuff much less tedious, but had a lot of hidden complexity 13:36:38 sykopomp: you got any projects that do htmly stuff available for looking at how people do html stuff in cl .. cause the code i have is just FUBAR. 13:36:52 might be because id on't understand html, css, ajax, and what not .. 13:37:32 zorkmoid: the only public project I have is from when I was first starting, and it's kinda messy. :\ 13:37:40 sykopomp, how does cite= help at all??? 13:37:40 the bulk of my web work these days is JS+Erlang 13:38:03 digitizing historical texts with footnotes did it for me 13:38:48 footnotes are useful -- things you don't want to read on first read. Translator's notes. Historical notes. Corrections with respect to wrong facts in the original. etc. 13:38:52 sykopomp: still better than wading through this mudball as a blind man looking for a needle in haystack 13:38:53 editor's notes. 13:39:03 and even -- notes by the author himself 13:39:09 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 Fare: I mean that you can build the html document using or cite= for the footnotes. 13:39:13 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 13:39:46 zorkmoid: http://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic my toy 13:40:22 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:24 hi 13:40:29 sykopomp, first it does nothing to help the display or the navigation, second I still need to update 100 places in the document when I shift the numbering of 25 notes. 13:40:53 zorkmoid: the JS/ajaxy stuff gets better with some recent framework approaches - things like backbone.js etc. 13:41:02 each note has the number appear twice in the place that links to the note, twice in the place that links back to the text 13:41:32 zorkmoid: then you can get to the point where the only part between HTML/JS browser code and your backbone in CL is data model 13:41:37 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 13:41:39 zorkmoid: as a counterpoint, i've done quite a bit of web stuff from cgi to ajax and i still find it tedious and inane 13:42:08 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:12 oGMo: ah, good, then it might not just be me ... cause i am feeling like an utter dead fish with this cruft 13:42:14 Fare: you don't need to shift the numbering, that's the whole point. 13:42:25 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 sykopomp, yes you do 13:42:49 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:43:03 you can do it manually, or a program has to do it, but it needs to be done. 13:43:14 I chose the latter 13:43:15 Fare: you can do it with CSS just fine. 13:43:20 no you can't 13:43:23 yes you can 13:43:26 p_l: i was contemplating if youc an't just do everything in js and html... 13:43:27 no you can't 13:43:38 (plus css didn't exist at the time) 13:43:45 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/CSS/Counters <-- 13:44:29 I haven't seen anyone successfully do footnotes with CSS 13:44:31 well, there was a web backend for CLIM once in the elder times... 13:44:36 zorkmoid: that's what ajax is about mostly, make JS talk more directly to the backend, but at some point you're still manipulating the dom to get things done 13:44:52 oGMo: dom? 13:45:00 especially when footnotes are close enough to each other that CSS would layer the text of both at the same place 13:45:11 Demosthe1ex [~Demosthen@206.180.156.169.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:45:19 zorkmoid: document object model, i.e. the page as a hierarchical data structure 13:45:40 Fare: I think it's certainly doable. Depends on how you want your document structure and how you want the links to work, but I'm of the opinion that it can be done cleanly. 13:45:55 it would take me a bit to cook you up a prototype, but I can probably give it a shot later if you'd like. 13:46:14 though with enough wrappers and html5, i think you can make JS look like you're just drawing stuff to the screen, and i guess if you use parenscript even that would look like lisp 13:46:26 sykopomp, I'm interested, yes 13:46:30 oGMo: can't we talk about rrna's and ncrna's instead? :-) 13:46:39 sykopomp, the Racket scribble html footnotes use CSS and they SUCK 13:47:07 Fare: I'll give it a shot and let you know, then. Let me just clarify: by footnote, you mean a ^[num] that links to a footnotes area on the bottom of the current page? 13:47:10 zorkmoid: sounds far more interesting heh .. but sadly my knowledge of molecular biology is nil 13:47:39 (and for that matter, what's wrong with wikipedia's citation styling? Can't you use something like that for footnotes?) 13:47:58 oGMo: hehe, then you know how i feel when i need to touch html! :-) 13:48:04 zorkmoid: which is sad because with the brief reading on the subject i've done, it seems pretty interesting if you consider all that to be a sort of virtual machine ;) 13:49:18 Fare: by the way, do any of Racket's tools support an equivalent of C-c C-c into specific modules that does the Right Thing? 13:49:43 sykopomp: bottom of the current page and/or margin 13:49:46 by which I mean, can they update a definition inside a module/closure and get everything else to work right? 13:50:10 racket scribble uses margin, and then footnotes too close to each other clash and overlap graphically 13:50:38 sykopomp, you should ask this question on #racket as I'm not competent to answer 13:50:38 peterhil- [~peterhil@cs181185183.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:50:56 I've been thinking about JS tools lately and I'm wondering if it's even possible to get a slime-like workflow with it, considering how JS modules tend to live inside closures. 13:51:18 Fare: fair enough. I'm just wondering how to solve a problem, and I figure CL people are the ones that understand the solution I'm looking for the most :) 13:51:59 what could possibly go wrong 13:52:05 I think I've seen a swank-js project already 13:52:14 https://github.com/swank-js/swank-js 13:52:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:53:28 dim: iirc, swank-js simply sends the whole toplevel expression to the browser (like slime does for CL) 13:53:28 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:54:36 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:01 pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has joined #lisp 14:01:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.69] has joined #lisp 14:01:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.69] has quit [Changing host] 14:01:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 sykopomp: its not quite as good as slime, but in firebug (firefox add on) you can define things directly in the console 14:02:19 and they will apply to the current webpage with no reload required 14:02:24 ahungry: a toplevel repl is nothing like slime. 14:02:54 ahungry: also, firefox and chrome both have very nice devtools built in these days. I've stopped using firebug. 14:03:38 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gpzfgvhnwbfkixry] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:04:06 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:58 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:04:58 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:58 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 14:12:36 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 14:12:52 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:05 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:13:24 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:13:26 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:13:56 bitonic [~user@dyn903-152.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:52 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@cs181185183.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:55 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:02 pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has joined #lisp 14:20:09 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:29 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zlftihwfsakiwifs] has joined #lisp 14:24:54 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 14:25:16 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:25:25 impomatic2 [~digital_w@211.25.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:12 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:27:48 thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.29] has joined #lisp 14:28:22 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-hdxiatwqqdglmqjd] has joined #lisp 14:28:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-163-104.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:33:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:34:30 morning 14:34:33 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:54 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:46 o/ 14:41:38 Whitesquall [~notwhites@31.172.194.23] has joined #lisp 14:44:02 theos, what happened to your other arm? 14:44:24 Fare its a one handed wave! 14:46:01 hmm would reading a 1989 yr book on lisp be practical today? 14:46:40 theos: depends which book 14:46:43 well i guess most lisp books were written before that :s 14:47:12 theos: why do you make such a silly assumption? 14:47:16 p_l OOP in CL? 14:47:20 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:26 hm... can one have dynamic error pages in hunchentoot? 14:47:47 theos: Sonia's? 14:47:50 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:26 p_l yes sonja keene's :) 14:48:31 theos: it's worth it 14:48:32 theos: that is a good book. 14:49:00 ok thanks :) 14:50:26 i have some old lisp books by various authors like paul graham, guy steele etc. its tough which one to read 14:50:44 theos: I'd be wary of reading PG's stuff, at least at start 14:50:55 On Lisp could be a good read for later 14:51:51 *sykopomp* thinks AMOP is the best damn book about writing OOP stuff in CL. 14:52:08 ok 14:52:26 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:27 yes, but AMOP is... higher order book, let's say :) 14:52:58 p_l i read a few starting pages of On Lisp, and it is quite interesting :) its advanced yes 14:53:08 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:54:37 p_l: you think so? I think it does a great job of teaching good CLOS through example. 14:55:08 sykopomp: well, that was my take on it 14:55:21 but different people learn in various ways 14:56:26 ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 14:56:34 Kenjin [~kenjin@193.136.207.62] has joined #lisp 14:57:29 Oh, I asked this weekend if anyone's heard of interesting takes on the concept of reader macros. Good alternatives to the way CL does them, improvements that have been proposed, etc. Other than named readtables. Or even big frustrations that have no current solution. 14:59:04 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:11 All of the talk of functional programming in the lisp world and readtables are the only datastructure that I wish had been made immutable 15:00:37 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:01:49 sykopomp: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/gpce12-rf.pdf, I guess. 15:03:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:03:27 pkhuong: thanks! 15:04:12 foom might have pointer to stuff in Goo. 15:04:15 sykopomp: other than mutating readtables my complaint is that the (enable-foo-syntax) doesn't present what character is being bound. here's my solution that I have found very comfortable to use, called syntax-bind http://paste.lisp.org/display/136104 15:04:40 pkhuong: hmm, that's really interesting. 15:05:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-163-104.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:01 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 15:06:01 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:01 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined #lisp 15:07:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:07:58 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.198.66] has joined #lisp 15:09:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:10:22 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@31.172.194.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:11:27 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:12:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:14:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:37 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.251.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:15:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:18:21 tinnery24 [~tinnery24@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:29 killerboy [~mateusz@441.lab.ics.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn903-152.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21:28 CoughSyrup [~csyrup@174-24-87-147.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:56 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-255-104.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:25 ivan4th [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:26:00 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-143-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:19 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@62.182.198.66] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:31:23 thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.29] has joined #lisp 15:33:41 did anyone fix the paip code issue ? 15:34:25 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 Yes. 15:34:50 was that an array issue ? 15:35:24 Xach: what was the solution ? 15:35:36 wbooze: I don't remember, sorry. 15:35:36 do you have a link or so ? 15:35:59 No. I just know that if you want to load it, it must be modified in what I remember are trivial ways. 15:36:32 oh loading is not the issue here 15:36:36 it loads well 15:37:06 Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 i can do (requires "examples") and then do (do-examples :all) but then it puts me into debugger on othello.lisp.... 15:37:23 see pjb's pages, he did the work 15:38:00 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/4d69061f51e43bf46ac0c2e10cec5f644fd1b476/cl-loaders/norvig.lisp 15:38:24 telling me -1 is not of type (or (single-float (0.0)) (double-float (0.0d0)) (rational (0))) 15:39:09 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:10 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 15:39:13 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:21 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:41:24 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-254-59.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:32 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:27 that is a trivial thing to modify 15:43:51 find the loop which is "from something to something by -1"; change it to "from something downto something by 1" 15:43:57 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:06 then make other, similar trivial modifications 15:45:20 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:45:31 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-123-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:46:23 ah 15:46:42 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:46:52 Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has joined #lisp 15:47:23 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:06 Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has joined #lisp 15:55:42 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-jkrwyhokzqqgaqpb] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:56:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:45 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:57:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:58:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:58:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.69] has joined #lisp 15:58:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.20.69] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:58:33 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:59:07 sykopomp, is chanl tested on ccl ? 15:59:20 Anyone know of a library with a broadcast stream implementation? That is an output pseudo-stream that when you write to it writes to N other streams? 15:59:21 would there be any reason for it to cause memory corruption? 15:59:24 chupish [18b8ecba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.184.236.186] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 clhs make-broadcast-stream 15:59:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_bro.htm 15:59:46 jasom: you're not satisfied with make-broadcast-stream? 16:00:09 thanks 16:00:13 don't know how I missed it 16:00:20 -!- CoughSyrup [~csyrup@174-24-87-147.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:56 obscure name perhaps 16:01:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:14 *jasom* has used up his "stupid question" quota for the day, and it's not even lunch time 16:02:50 Fare: there was a bug in CCL's pclusering for compare-and-swap until very recently. That could cause strange errors. 16:03:07 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-094-219-150-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:08 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.29] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:06:22 I would have expected the failure to be less reproducible, though, if it were a CAS issue. 16:06:25 pkhuong: iirc, chanl implements CAS itself, for CCL, using LAP 16:06:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:06:49 https://github.com/sykopomp/chanl/blob/master/src/trivial-cas.lisp 16:07:02 but only CAS channels use it, I think? 16:07:28 Fare: (a) using wikipedia-style footnotes would be nice -- but they'd need to be different than the margin notes that are used currently, since they wouldn't be visible next to the text the're hooked on. 16:07:45 (b) I'm sure that nobody would mind some css magic that adds footnotes, and of course you can do your own additional style that adds it. 16:08:08 (c) If you see places where margin notes overlap, then that would be a bug worth fixing (and therefore worth filing). 16:09:13 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 16:09:29 Bah. I have to pickup my CAS compat layer... Someone kick me. :-( 16:09:29 sykopomp: Re your C-c C-c question, it's doable in Racket in a similar way that you'd do it in CL -- probably even a little more organized since all files are their own modules (ie, you can't have the moral equivalent of multiple in-package things). 16:09:41 *madnificent* kicks luis 16:10:06 *stassats`* compares and swap luis with an improved luis 16:10:28 sykopomp: On a comman line, it's best to use xrepl with ,en "some-file" which gets the prompt into the module's namespace, and with Emacs I think that the only tool that does it for racket is geiser (and it should do exactly that). 16:10:55 eli: modules aren't just closures with some name registration? 16:11:10 No, they're much more than that... 16:11:35 Roughly speaking, each module has its own namespace, which actually works in a way that would make a CLer feel at home. 16:11:47 (But without the `::' things, of course.) 16:12:22 But they're also used as compilation units, so each such module's namespace has a "registry" of linked modules. 16:12:54 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:13:10 eli: where do I file bugs? 16:13:18 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 16:13:22 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:49 Fare: bugs.racket-lang.org, of course. But make sure to check the *installed* documentation and see if it suffers from the same problem. 16:14:14 This is because the on-line version is something that I've tweaked not too long ago, and I think that *that* lead to some such overlap. 16:14:33 (This is also a bug, but one that is in my dept and I know that I should deal with it.) 16:14:58 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:01 sykopomp: And as long as I'm going over comments here -- re your questions about reader macros and readtables, the paper that pkhuong isn't too relevant, since the honu reader is basically just a reader for an infix language. 16:15:09 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:15:17 Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has joined #lisp 16:15:31 Racket does use read tables and reader macros in almost the same way as CL, with one major difference: 16:15:54 *sykopomp* can't stand waiting for the punchline+! 16:16:08 It's not that much... 16:16:20 *sykopomp* is at the edge of his seat! 16:16:40 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 Each file starts with a `#lang' chant, which specifies a reader to use for only that file, so it's roughly as if you always parameterize reading a module with a (parameterize ([current-readtable ...something...]) ...read-the-file...) 16:17:07 Yuuhi [benni@pD9F9807B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:08 It's not a big thing, but it works very well in that language extensions are localized to the files that use them. 16:17:44 That addresses the problem that I've seen in CL: you can use reader macros but since they're almost always end up being used globally, they're used much more rarely. 16:18:00 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 16:18:11 named-readtables are used nowadays 16:18:12 named-readtables and cl-syntax mitigate that somewhat. 16:18:24 What's a named readtable? 16:18:29 Just what it sounds like. 16:18:37 How does it help? 16:18:45 Scopes readtables to files. 16:19:12 So probably not what it sounds like -- at least to me... 16:19:18 But yeah, that's the general idea. 16:20:05 Is it enforced somehow? That is, is there a way to forbid setting *readtable* mid-stream? 16:20:09 luis: just please don't call it trivial-cas 16:20:23 CAS ain't trivial 16:21:33 sykopomp: But it's funny that you raised this point now, since just last night I had a minor enlightenment point re reader macros and alternative parsers, one that would apply to CL almost as is... 16:23:06 fe[nl]ix: heh. I think the plan is still to include it in bordeaux-threads. Had you convinced me otherwise? 16:24:03 B-T is good 16:24:22 fe[nl]ix: btw, any issues with cffi 0.11.0? did you get around to releasing your stuff that depends on it? 16:25:06 yes, I released iolib 16:25:07 name it CLAS, for maximum confusion 16:25:36 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zlftihwfsakiwifs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:02 fe[nl]ix, congrats! 16:26:18 luis: btw, can you test B-T HEAD on Allegro ? 16:26:52 I'd like to release it tonight if all is well 16:27:25 the suite passes on sbcl, ccl and cmucl and I need testers for the other implementations 16:27:38 fe[nl]ix: I can give it a spin, sure. 16:27:38 eli: the syntax-bind macro I pasted keeps the modification file local by copying the readtable before modification 16:28:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:30:00 eli: I was trying to enforce it with ASDF recently ... binding the readtable to a read-only table by default 16:30:13 since compile-file binds *readtable*, so long as you use a new readtable instead of breaking the readtable passed to you, your modifications don't become global 16:30:19 turns out, not all implementations made the "standard readtable" actually readonly. 16:30:39 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.194] has joined #lisp 16:30:56 but that broke a handful of Lisp packages that didn't respect the discipline. 16:31:01 fe[nl]ix: I've got 8.0, 8.1, 8.2, 9.0 and 9.0 smp. Are you interested in any version in particular? 16:31:06 eli: yes? 16:31:14 So I backed out that enforcement until things stabilize (and sent angry mail at the authors) 16:31:59 sykopomp: It's too vague ATM to talk about... But I'm trying to flesh out some sketch code that will do it. 16:32:21 Fare: I didn't know that it was supposed to be read-only... 16:32:22 p_l did sonya update her book? a revised edition maybe 16:32:30 theos: I don't think so. 16:33:03 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:04 eli: I didn't know until I discovered it recently reading the glossary of the CLHS 16:33:15 Xach oh. the book i have a reprinted in 2001. maybe they revised it. or just reprinted it :/ 16:33:16 Vivitron: Yeah, restoring the readtable after each file would do the trick, I just didn't know if there was a way to enforce that -- and certainly at the time that I was doing CL there wasn't anything that would do it 16:33:16 luis: the two 9.0 versions 16:33:21 several implementations have agreed to join SBCL in enforcing readonly-ism 16:33:29 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:33:40 a/was* 16:33:51 so after the remaining offenders are rooted out, I'll put the enforcement back in. 16:33:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:19 Fare: Heh, my standard lookup place is cltl2, mainly because I have my single-text-file version of it. 16:34:44 A good, quick way to get wrong answers. 16:35:17 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@441.lab.ics.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:35:36 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 16:35:55 -!- Demosthe1ex [~Demosthen@206.180.156.169.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:36:07 Xach: What -- cltl2? 16:36:48 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-esbdungahdxyddxx] has joined #lisp 16:37:13 Indeed 16:37:20 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:37:40 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@193.136.207.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:33 Xach: Since I'm not CL-ing actively, I don't have the cycles to spare to make a text-only version of the clhs... 16:39:17 Whitesquall [~notwhites@31.172.194.23] has joined #lisp 16:39:17 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 16:40:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:41:07 how do you give :version spec to make-pathname ? 16:41:09 eli: well, restore it for your own code, or for others? I said binding *readtable* to a fresh readtable, then only modifying the fresh one works great, for your own code. 16:41:13 in sbcl ? 16:41:50 dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 16:42:01 i tried pjb's code for loading paip code, but now i get another error on :newest or :wild etc.... 16:42:47 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:42:49 fe[nl]ix: 8.1 doesn't work because it doesn't have the smputils module. Is that an issue? 16:42:52 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:17 Vivitron: Obviously if it's only my own extensions then I can be well-behaved about it, but I think that people like Fare would want stronger guarantees... 16:44:55 luis: nobody complained about it yet 16:45:00 so don't bother 16:45:43 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:45:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:46:15 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0022ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:46:24 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:47:09 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:47:32 maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has joined #lisp 16:52:34 fe[nl]ix: on non-smp 9.0, got one failure out of 61453. CONDITION-VARIABLE []: Unexpected Error: # Attempt to start thread Proc #84 gave OS error code 0xc.. 16:52:46 Probably some Windows XP limit? 16:53:19 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:55:15 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-30.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 16:55:47 the test attempts to create 100 threads 16:57:45 fe[nl]ix: on the SMP version, only 18 checks are performed. That doesn't sound right... 16:58:24 in what sense ? 16:58:44 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 16:59:13 18 checks versus 61453? 16:59:28 the number of checks is not constant, there's one test that performs the checks in a loop 16:59:52 on SMP systems a very low number is right 16:59:57 I get about 16 total on SBCL and CCL 17:00:04 -!- cyphase is now known as cyphase_ 17:00:09 Ok. 17:00:19 Well, it's failing a lot for SMP Allegro. 17:00:37 -!- cyphase_ is now known as cyphase 17:00:37 Fail: 8 (66%) 17:01:05 which ones ? 17:01:08 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:01:09 -!- cyphase is now known as cyphase_ 17:01:18 -!- cyphase_ is now known as cyphase__ 17:01:46 The LAP code in https://github.com/sykopomp/chanl/blob/master/src/trivial-cas.lisp is not gc safe. 17:01:53 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 -!- cyphase__ is now known as cyphase 17:02:44 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-249-125.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:03:03 fe[nl]ix: join-thread needs an SMP-aware implementation for Allegro 17:03:52 Yeah, that makes all tests pass. 17:04:09 Do I have push permissions? 17:05:14 Fare: that's useful to know. Do they have a proper implementation? 17:06:10 dunno 17:06:59 fe[nl]ix: hmm, our firewall blocks SSH traffic so I can't push to gitorious anyway. I'll mail you a patch. 17:07:16 but...but how do you use clbuild? 17:07:55 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:08 -!- basho___ [~petrosil@norma.uberspace.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:47 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 17:09:15 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 17:10:56 luis: what part of join-thread needs to be SMP-aware ? 17:11:18 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:11:25 the part that waits for the thread to die 17:11:39 not sure what the other bit is doing actually 17:12:01 luis: if you read the cmucl implementation I used the process-plist to fake join-thread without needing locks 17:12:16 ikki [~ikki@187.208.185.204] has joined #lisp 17:12:31 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:12:33 luis: it's for retrieving the thread function's return value 17:12:37 *values 17:12:46 I'll leave that as is. 17:14:22 patch mailed. 17:14:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.185.204] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:43 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-134-118.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:03 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:20 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:42 I'm at a loss on a design decision in cl-postgres from postmodern. There's a wait-for-notification API but a condition is signaled well before my code reaches the point where it waits, and when it does, it won't receive anything as the notification has already been processed... 17:17:39 luis: what does this return: (mp:process-join (mp:mp:process-run-function "foo" (lambda () (values 1 2 3 4 5)))) ? 17:17:51 oops 17:17:54 dim: use throw/catch? 17:18:07 maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has joined #lisp 17:18:31 the code that notifies runs in the PostgreSQL backend 17:18:50 cl-postgres gets a incoming message in the protocol, and signals that 17:19:02 so I can handler-case the signaling, ok 17:19:11 well there's no expectation on postgres' to queue that up. 17:19:26 fair enough. then why offer wait-for-notification? 17:19:28 so, if you're not listening, of course you miss it. 17:19:29 dim: the typical pattern for condition notification is that you lock some mutex, then if the thing you'd wait for is ready, just take it otherwise, condition-wait until signaled. The signaler should have the mutex locked when it makes the thing ready and signals the condition. 17:19:36 mmm I just understood 17:19:39 I needed to spell the question out :) 17:19:40 fe[nl]ix: it returns those values. So I guess you can get rid of the other code too. Nice. 17:19:57 perhaps it really means "wait-for-future-notification" 17:20:22 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:24 yes, or notifications sent from another backend 17:20:46 here I'm doing something special by waiting on a notification sent by the previous query in the same session 17:20:53 luis: ok 17:20:57 you're talking about LISTEN and NOTIFY, right? 17:21:29 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:00 dim: sorry ignore my comment, it looks like cl-postgres's wait is more like a block-until-data-available-on-a-stream thing. 17:22:29 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 17:23:24 whartung: yes 17:23:48 patrickwonders: exactly, and my usage of it happens when no notification will ever get there 17:23:57 because I just missed it 17:23:58 yea, afaik there's no mechanism for queue events when there are no listeners in PG 17:24:09 I didn't understand the API and signaling erll enough 17:24:30 whartung: not in core PostgreSQL, but external project Skytools implements PGQ which is exactly that 17:24:45 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 17:25:14 ok, but that's something different. 17:27:20 yes 17:27:39 my usage is a little special, I need to use a DO block and I want to get back some data from it 17:27:48 I could either do a CREATE FUNCTION, call it, then DROP it 17:28:01 or I pg_notify() from within the DO block :) 17:28:42 ncw [~ncw@63.239.94.10] has joined #lisp 17:29:24 and now it works, awesome 17:30:01 -!- kanru` [~kanru@111-249-143-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:33:46 Is there a way to have usocket bind to a port < 1024 or do I need to make an executable and run with sudo? 17:34:06 Kenjin: that's an OS restriction. 17:34:32 davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has joined #lisp 17:34:35 you can use capabilities on linux 17:34:43 IIRC you can setup the system to allow non privileged users to use < 1024 port numbers 17:34:44 iptabels to redirect 17:34:48 in recent enough linux kernels 17:34:50 a reverse proxy 17:34:54 there's a sysctl, right? 17:35:22 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-38-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:37:11 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Quit: Until next time.] 17:37:31 stassats`: you mean file capabilities ? 17:38:41 AFAIR capabilities have been around since kernel 2.2, so recent enough is a bit of an overstatement ;) 17:38:45 Kenjin: http://yaws.hyber.org/privbind.yaws 17:38:57 :) 17:38:58 -!- agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:28 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:39:48 luis: try my last commit on the non-SMP version 17:39:52 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 17:40:59 uh... Can I do CFFI bindings for C++ yet? 17:41:04 agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 you can 17:41:46 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:42:28 stassats 17:42:34 Denommus: sure, you just need to implement the mangling rules 17:42:43 stassats`: but, it's ugly and compiler-specific, right? 17:42:45 the C++ ABI, basically 17:43:14 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 17:43:25 patrickwonders: just using extern "C" 17:43:47 Denommus didn't qualify how he wants to bind C++ 17:43:55 Sure, if I want to wrap every C++ thing I want to call in a C function... 17:44:08 heck. extern "C" is how I interface to a lot of C++ code... from C++ (: 17:44:41 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:51 yaws. been a long time since I saw that... :) 17:45:39 To me, when I say I want CFFI bindings for C++, I'd love to be able to say (cffi:c++-class foo () (:integer m_int)) and some convenient way to declare member functions. 17:46:08 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 17:46:35 what language, besides C++, allows that? 17:47:19 I've not looked at what SWiG does for C++ to Lisp, but that's where I'd start at this point. and if that fails to produce something useful, then I'd work on figuring out some name-mangling scheme and extending CFFI to talk with it (knowing, of course, that operator overloading and function overloading won't map nicely at all) 17:47:28 is commonqt an example of a CL FFI to C++? 17:47:52 not really 17:48:28 it's an FFI to a C program 17:48:46 -!- prip_ [~foo@host13-123-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:53 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.150.31] has joined #lisp 17:52:16 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.150.31] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:52:58 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:54:01 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:55:28 -!- taraz [~user@p578E6D25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:56:36 fe[nl]ix: works as well as the previous version. 17:56:45 luis: ;) 17:58:14 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 17:58:25 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has left #lisp 17:59:05 dim: FFI to C++ is a PITA. QT has C wrappers via a tool called "smoke" I tried running smoke on another C++ library and it segfaulted, so it seems to be pretty qt specific 17:59:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:31 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Quit: Passed out.] 18:00:19 patrickwonders: you can try using smoke to generate C wrappers, but it didn't work for me 18:00:47 prip_ [~foo@host142-28-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:AXkbyh6AMGwJ:sbcl10.sbcl.org/materials/dlichteblau/smoke.pdf+smoke+C%2B%2B&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj4tppaEPivYcnUGInhW1tVCPlJLHV0cG_EM7hoVVi2VaLDSim860JTNk3EIH8hTitnJ79r4RIyFa-hThFsCZd_YVjwLsCDJfvtZjB1UCZmuy57_eEEszKqqxQMsynNIDvKJWGX&sig=AHIEtbQkk09oWMq8E8_swr5LGEhIhGlQUg 18:02:49 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-38-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:04 ikki [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ikki] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:04 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-38-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:09:17 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:11 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:16 joe9 [~user@c-24-98-97-215.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:15:13 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:15:59 neon-gas [~user@117.219.6.84] has joined #lisp 18:17:12 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-255-104.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 18:18:50 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:57 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:59 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:24:36 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:52 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:55 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@67.40.30.237] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 -!- joe9 [~user@c-24-98-97-215.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:57 Is it permitted to insert additional classes into the common lisp class hierarchy? Example: CL says the class precedence list for CONS is: CONS, LIST, SEQUENCE, T. My implementation has CONS, LIST, SEQUENCE, SEQUENCE-VIRTUAL, T 18:30:36 drmeister: sure. for example check random-state's hierarchy in sbcl. 18:31:06 (it includes structure-object, for one) 18:31:15 clhs 4.2.2 18:31:15 Type Relationships: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bb.htm 18:31:59 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@67.40.30.237] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:29 Thanks for the reference, I thought I remembered that it was ok from way back. 18:32:33 vy [58fff5fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.255.245.252] has joined #lisp 18:32:45 yeah, i just fixed that up in my library so it's on my mind 18:33:40 Is it legal to have a vector of type nil of non-zero size, so long as you never aref it? 18:33:55 A couple of years ago, I was following the photo stream of a lisp hacker at acrackineverything.com. It seems like the site is down for a long time. Does anybody know/remember the person behind the website and the photo stream? 18:34:25 vy: edi weitz 18:34:29 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-255-104.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 *Xach* was going to guess Marco Baringer, as he had that lyric in his .sig for a while 18:35:40 hm. 18:35:57 *H4ns* goes to archive.org 18:36:08 jasom: I think so. 18:36:11 indeed, that's what whois suggests. 18:36:26 pkhuong: sbcl lets you do it (though it's a style-warning) 18:36:27 Xach: you're probably right 18:36:29 satyajit [~satyajit@114.143.147.193] has joined #lisp 18:36:41 H4ns: pkhuong: Xach: Thanks so much. 18:36:49 luis: excellent :) 18:37:26 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:00 of course sbcl went to stupid extremes to make nil arrays work (and (make-array 0 :element-type nil) prints "" which is actually correct, if unexpected) 18:38:33 any ABCL and/or ECL users here ? 18:38:39 joe9 [~user@c-24-98-97-215.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:25 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@219.Red-79-150-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:39 -!- vy [58fff5fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.255.245.252] has quit [] 18:40:50 -!- satyajit [~satyajit@114.143.147.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:11 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:42:12 fe[nl]ix, I don't really use ECL, but I debug asdf on it, which is painful enough. 18:44:54 I need somebody to run the bordeaux-threads test suite on those implementations 18:45:19 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:58 -!- neon-gas [~user@117.219.6.84] has left #lisp 18:47:43 jasom: as a consequence, declaring strings as simple-string is not optimal 18:48:05 stassats`: there's base-char/character anyway. 18:48:08 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-vbsrpfgqwnfqtbvk] has joined #lisp 18:49:11 adding nil-char doesn't make it go faster 18:49:14 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-30.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:47 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-30.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 abeaumont [~abeaumont@219.Red-79-150-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 pkhuong: it's allowed for u-a-e-t of base-char to be character, right? 18:52:01 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.55] has joined #lisp 18:53:21 jasom: only is base-char and character are equivalent. 18:54:13 i wonder by how much the image size will be reduced if nil strings are remove 18:54:30 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8C17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:47 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54:48 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-30.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:59:46 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:49 jasom: u-a-e-t of base-char has to be equivalent to base-char, so 19:09:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8C17.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:09:20 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 19:09:31 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 19:12:51 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:33 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 19:13:35 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14:20 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 19:16:18 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:33 -!- chupish [18b8ecba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.184.236.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:58 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:07 and the answer is, measly 64 KB 19:20:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:21:53 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:22:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:24:48 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 19:24:55 *stassats`* still can't comprehend how reasonable people decided that support NIL arrays is a good idea 19:25:57 "our users will be so delighted" 19:26:39 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 19:26:57 Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:35 stassats`: I think the bigger problem is missed optimization opportunities, particularly with generics specialized to class 'string 19:27:47 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:08 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-38-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:28:17 If you make base-char === character and disallow NIL arrays than class 'string is equal to (vector 'character) 19:28:32 that's what CCL does 19:28:58 it doesn't disallow NIL arrays, it just upgrades them to T 19:29:48 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 19:30:15 hm is it guaranteed that x <: y implies (u-a-e-t x) <: (u-a-e-t y), i forget (and it would be kind of uncomputable) 19:30:47 dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:30:53 Bike: yes it is guaranteed 19:31:00 is it? i don't see it in u-a-e-t 19:31:07 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:11 it does say "Returns the element type of the most specialized array representation capable of holding items of the type denoted by typespec." but NIL doesn't have any items anyway 19:31:14 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:31:38 well, arguing about how to support NIL arrays is not reasonable in my book too 19:31:55 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:10 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 19:32:54 if a type Tx is a subtype of another type Ty, then the upgraded array element type of Tx must be a subtype of the upgraded array element type of Ty. Two disjoint types can be upgraded to the same type. 19:32:59 clhs subtypep 19:32:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm 19:33:07 clhs 15.1.2.1 19:33:08 Array Upgrading: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm 19:33:22 nil arrays implication is just an oversight 19:33:43 stassats`: clearly since they refer to the type hierarchy as a lattice 19:33:51 my new answer to why Common Lisp didn't succeed: "NIL arrays!" 19:33:54 jasom: oogh, the way that says "subtype" intead of "recognizable subtype" makes it uncomputable anyway 19:34:08 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:31 if i made a revised CL standard, i'd fix PROG2 and disallow NIL arrays 19:36:39 PROG2 description 19:36:56 and left everything else intact 19:37:00 snerk. 19:37:50 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 I would have the MOP in my new revised CL standard as well... because I like it :) 19:38:51 drewc: i asked you before, but what would you change in the mop? 19:38:58 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:07 I'd like an extensible sequence protocol in a revised CL standard, too, fwiw. 19:39:10 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:10 Bike: a better specification wouldn't hurt 19:39:16 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:18 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:39:35 yeah, i mean specifics (like setf std-instance-access or make-method-lambda or whatever) 19:39:41 <|3b|> sykopomp: last time i was using parenscript with slime, i tended to just not make big closures for everything, so i could redefine just parts of it 19:40:16 |3b|: I'm trying to figure out how to do it, but I think there's a way if you use AMDs. Need to check it later. 19:40:38 what i'd like to see improved in MOP: better specification of how slots are inherited through classes 19:40:42 but I think you may be able to reassign definitions into cached modules, which means you could have slime read the file and know what to redefine 19:41:36 i had to resort to some weird hacks to just see if a slot option is not specified or should be inherited from a superclass 19:41:52 -!- javajax858 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:42:04 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 19:42:36 *sellout* would get rid of the short form of DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION. Wouldnt even break any code. 19:42:45 jasom: I don't see how NIL doesn't fit in a type lattice. 19:42:49 sellout: i recently used it :( 19:42:54 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:05 Bike: Ooooooh, where? 19:43:08 pkhuong: you're right it does, but I don't think it was intended to be 'string 19:43:13 er vector NIL 19:43:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:44:14 somebody during standardization process thought "let's insert leave a riddle in the standard, to keep open source implementors on their toes" 19:44:23 s/insert// 19:44:35 sellout: https://github.com/Bike/sandalphon.types/blob/master/types.lisp#L28 where tri/definite is a macro that returns the result of the first form with a true second value 19:45:05 Bike: To be honest, it has been a long time since I worked with the MOP beyond 'remove it!' , so I am not completely sure anymore. MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA is likely the only thing I can think of, and exactly why I cannot recall. 19:45:18 sellout: i don't like how the short and long forms are in one macro, though (same with defsetf) 19:45:32 Bike: How many functions do you define that on? 19:45:34 for the rather silly reason that it makes slime not as helpful 19:45:41 sellout: just the one 19:45:58 Bike: I like this: https://github.com/sellout/method-combination-utilities#basic-operator-optional-identity-with-one-argument-p-order 19:46:06 more like "let's have our best shot at type theory" 19:46:36 and the killer: "let's identify types and classes" 19:46:48 does haskell have arrays which can't hold a thing? 19:46:56 sellout: that works 19:47:12 stassats`: yes, but there's no notion of upgrading as far as i know 19:47:43 Bike: I'll have to add your code to my catalog of method combinations :) 19:47:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0022ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:53 gosh 19:48:14 i have a few :arounds on it, too, glad that worked mostly like i expected 19:50:37 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:15 sellout: so for mine i'd lose the d-m-c form and have (:method-combination (basic tri/definite t)), yes? 19:52:34 Bike: Yep. Not necessarily recommending it, though  might impede some optimizations or something. But it allows :BEFORE and :AFTER methods (which dont exist for short-form method combinations). 19:53:00 Bike: I have just never found a use of the short-form before, so yours is an interesting animal :) 19:53:24 sellout: neither had i, but it fixed a lot of problems 19:54:14 does make for kind of ugly defmethods though 19:54:39 stassats`, yes, the empty type with no constructor is a type. 19:54:49 and you can have lists of such a type 19:55:04 ? haskell has bottom? i thought types with no constructors were nonstandard 19:55:54 Bike: haskell doesn't force termination. 19:56:19 oh, right, it has bottom in that sense, duh 19:57:03 Bike: Oh, right  with mine you dont have to specify the combination-name as a qualifier. Not sure why my docs dont mention that. 19:57:06 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:57:42 sellout: obviously the killer feature 19:58:23 Bike: or error. 19:58:30 right 19:58:32 Oh, nvm, you do still have to specify it. I should remove that, I think. 19:58:45 Bike: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Empty_type 19:59:09 oh, it's in 2010. 20:01:10 <|3b|> sykopomp: if i'm understanding it right, using AMD would make it a bit annoying, unless you load every change as a new module or something 20:02:39 |3b|: I believe you can statically detect AMDs and just require("modulename").external_def = ...new def... 20:02:46 I *think*, that's what I need to test. 20:02:59 the other question is whether you can reload the code for a cached module altogether. 20:03:32 <|3b|> hard to redefine things that close over some state you can't see (like the arguments to the constructor or whatever they call it) 20:03:36 of course, if any modules that depend on that module have copied the module's exports locally, you're screwed, but that's just a style you can adapt to. 20:03:50 <|3b|> or any local variables in it that are closed over by the module 20:04:10 |3b|: you could just export everything. 20:04:42 ed_g [~quassel@71-214-120-151.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:43 xificurC [~xificurC@adsl-dyn23.78-99-63.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 20:04:54 <|3b|> yeah, i think that's what i meant by 'annoying' :) 20:05:06 define(function() { return {x: function() {....}, statevar: 10} }) 20:05:08 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:11 it's not *that* bad. 20:05:16 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:24 <|3b|> export everything, than have huge chain of objects to get it back, or boilerplate to copy it to locals 20:05:32 err, binding that object to some local variable so everything else can access it. 20:05:44 *|3b|* hasn't thought about it in detail though, so might not be that bad 20:05:58 I definitely think you need to write the JS in a certain style to make this possible. 20:06:07 <|3b|> yeah 20:06:22 but the same applies to CL. It just happens CL goes through a bit more effort to make things globally accessible (but still namespaced) 20:07:02 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:07:12 |3b|: firefox devtools are remotable now, so there's a nice opportunity to get some slime action going on. You can probably write a swank adapter for their remote protocol. :) 20:07:18 Fare: thanks for looking at function-cache the other day and spotting that bug, if you do someday have time, I would be happy to try and make any cleanups that you recommend / try to add any features that you feel are crucially missing 20:07:41 (I know this is all marginally OT, trying to keep it CL-relevant) 20:07:47 <|3b|> cool, i need to look at browser dev stuff again at some point, think i saw some source location tracking patch for parenscript 20:07:47 "relevant to my interests" 20:08:01 |3b|: browsers support sourcemaps now! :) 20:08:05 bobbysmith007, not today, but hopefully later this month. 20:08:09 <|3b|> yeah, that too 20:08:16 you can actually have firefox/chrome load your -parenscript- code into the debugger, and step through it that way. 20:08:22 transparently 20:08:35 bobbysmith007, the idea being -- could I use it as a drop-in replacement for fare-memoization (modulo renamings) ? 20:08:55 sellout: i just experimentally switched it with m-c-u and everything seems to work, though i apparently can't compute the effective method myself or something 20:09:14 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:09:14 also, key collision can mean very different things for a cache (evict the old bugger) and a memoization (keep them both, falling back to an actual equality predicate) 20:09:18 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 20:09:22 <|3b|> sykopomp: yeah, also might work better (or at least more portably) than whatever hacks i was using before to track source locations for M-. etc 20:09:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:09:32 |3b|: I've started playing with my own lispy-lang-to-js compiler, too. That's just a toy, though, and not really the same niche as parenscript imo. :) 20:09:57 |3b|: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/sourcemaps/ here's a great description. 20:10:10 *|3b|* 's current project is trying to figure out how hard it would be to make a dalvik backend for sicl :p 20:10:19 sweet 20:10:29 <|3b|> sykopomp: yeah, i read up on source maps when i was messing with parenscript+slime 20:10:33 *sykopomp* is currently trying to figure out how the hell to compile an fexpr language. 20:10:51 <|3b|> wasn't actually implemented at the time, so didn't bother trying to implement it (and looked messy anyway) 20:10:54 give up and use a jit? 20:11:02 *sykopomp* has never written a compiler before either. 20:11:07 Fare: interesting, not sure I totally understand the key-collision point, but I will try to keep these in mind and work toward the goal of it being replacable. Thanks again for the input 20:11:15 *|3b|* has written a few compilers, just not very good ones :p 20:11:20 Bike: How did you call compete-effective-method? 20:11:25 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:12:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:12:09 Bike: I'd like to solve it as much as I can. It'll definitely need eval support (or have a flag that lets you force compilation to fail if a fexpr can't be statically removed) 20:12:16 sellout: sellout: (c2mop:compute-effective-method #'csubtypep (c2mop:generic-function-method-combination #'csubtypep) (compute-applicable-methods #'csubtypep (list (ctype (array integer)) (ctype t)))) 20:12:45 I was under the impression that you kept only one value with a given key, but I may be wrong. 20:12:45 sellout: it says there's no method for c-e-m. 20:12:46 pmai [~Thunderbi@2001:470:1f15:3df:30af:289a:b914:7967] has joined #lisp 20:12:50 sykopomp: I think detecting whether or not the fexpr is compilable is the trick 20:13:00 Bike: What does (c2mop:generic-function-method-combination irc://irc.freenode.net:7000/#'csubtypep) return? 20:13:01 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 20:13:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-67-188.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:13 good paste 20:13:16 umm, without that stupid URL mistake  20:13:18 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:22 # 20:13:23 *Fare* is experiencing massive CLOS unstability on a recent ECL 20:13:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:13:49 is that a known thing? ECL looks like it hates methods where one of the arguments is not specialized 20:13:53 sykopomp: I think, maybe, if you have a pure functional fexpr, then you could evaluate it at compile time and then compile its results 20:14:13 sykopomp: tell me if you get anywhere. when i poked at it i tried partially evaluating with respect to an environment but wasn't sure how to deal with mutation 20:14:26 Does Kernel deal with fexpr compilation? 20:14:29 dlowe: determining whether it's pure isn't that simple, I don't think? Maybe it is. 20:14:34 Bike: Try passing it '(basic tri/definite t) instead. 20:14:36 dlowe: his thesis barely touches on it 20:14:43 there is no kernel compiler that i know of. 20:14:45 only interpreters 20:14:49 all of them extremely slow. 20:14:52 Bike: Some impls dont like actual method combination objects. 20:14:55 heh. not surprising 20:15:09 I don't think a single one even seriously tries to partial-eval the code. 20:15:31 sykopomp: seems like you should have to know if you're going to compile something. 20:15:32 sellout: this is on ccl, and it looks to have a method on (CLOSER-MOP:STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CCL:SHORT-METHOD-COMBINATION T). and passing c-e-m that literal list doesn't work. 20:15:37 but the language was ostensibly designed so that static compilation is possible. Been like 2 years since I looked at the details though. 20:16:15 dlowe: I've actually considered approaching it a different way 20:16:17 i've been thinking a fun thing to do might be to combine kernel and maru, and have a COMPILE generic function 20:16:30 then just make users define their own methods on it for their weird-ass fexprs 20:16:36 forcing static syntax whenever you want the values to be passed to the function unevaluated. 20:16:59 and then have 'fexprs' just be "regular" functions with the 'this' binding from JS bound to the current lexenv. 20:17:15 Bike: Well damn  it's only tangentially related, but could you open an issue on method-combination-utilities about that? 20:17:18 but that would make the code look like #(let ((x 1)) #(with-foo () ...))) 20:17:22 Fare: that is correct (one value per key), I'm guessing I am just doing much less key manipulation, such that I haven't come against where I would need to actually check the args with a predicate. generally speaking the cache-keys I have are the same as the argument list, except more broadly comparable. 20:17:29 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:17:35 I'm actually on the fence about whether to do it that way. 20:17:48 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-192-41.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 sellout: i'll try making a real test case after lunch 20:18:16 Bike: Much appreciated. 20:18:46 ...I don't know if that actually solves anything, although I"ve always wondered whether it would be good to have syntax in Lisp that distinguishes macros from applications. 20:18:49 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-hdxiatwqqdglmqjd] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:20:08 sellout: i'll poke at it more though, all of my 653 tests that use that function passed, implying something pretty weird and probably my fault is happening 20:20:39 well, if the cache-key is the whole list of arguments, then yes, it's memoization, not merely "cache". I was thinking more like a DNS cache or something, with the key being a digest of the argument. 20:21:09 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:21:26 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:38 Bike: Well, method-combinations arent exercised a whole bunch, and theyre poorly specified in the spec, so likely not your fault. Ive reported many implementation bugs along the way. 20:21:49 *sykopomp* is talking nonsense. Will just try to compile and see where it goes. 20:23:51 sellout: Oh, it works when I do ccl:c-e-m instead of c2mop's. so it's probably a bug there 20:24:02 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:03 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:24:20 Bike: *phew* Blame Pascal ;) 20:24:31 Go to ELS and blame him in person! 20:24:43 *sellout* might actually do that. 20:24:52 *Xach* has booked flight & hotel 20:24:59 *drewc* has a Kernel compiler that does not quite work at all! In Common Lisp! :P 20:25:04 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:04 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:25:04 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:25:07 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:19 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:25:25 drewc: what doesn't work? 20:26:04 the problem seems to be that all of c2mop:c-e-m's methods are specialized on c2mop:standard-generic-function instead of standard-generic-function 20:26:20 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:10 oh, so i suppose i'm supposed to use c2mop's defgeneric, not ccl's 20:27:20 Bike: Oh, yeah  when you :use #:c2mop, you generally also want to :use #:closer-common-lisp instead of #:common-lisp. 20:28:00 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 20:28:16 well, at this point it has been a while since I played with that, so I cannot quit remember the actual issue 'peak', but IIRC it had to do with circular evals ... or basically 'compile to something that interprets in a 'tail call' style with no exit point... so it loops forever. 20:28:19 youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:54 -!- youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:16 youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:32 *drewc* will shortly have some 'free' time and kernel is on my TODO list, so hopefully will be a better person to talk with concerning such things. 20:30:25 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 20:30:35 Mandus [~aasmundo@oroback.simula.no] has joined #lisp 20:30:51 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30:59 sellout: guess that's what i get for testing with a two line change 20:32:18 -!- youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 20:32:30 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-113-13.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:32:42 youlysses [~youlysses@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:12 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 20:35:13 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-gfeanrrcmjpjwtrb] has joined #lisp 20:35:35 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abor127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:38:02 sellout: "if you are somehow using the method combination to make circular structures or something, then the built-in NCONC is probably a better bet" i have to ask if you actually ran into that somewhere or just saw it in a nightmare 20:38:16 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboi142.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:39:10 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:39:22 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:13 -!- 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[~xan@80.174.78.158.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:30 is there a good guide on how to get more accurate results when working with floating-point numbers? 21:58:52 Denommus: I'd check a numerical analysis guide. unfortunately they're often written for FORTRAN :-) 22:02:04 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:17 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has joined #lisp 22:08:38 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:08:58 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:09:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@149.115-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:09:20 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 22:10:11 -!- Thra11_ [~quassel@87.115.149.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:10:18 -!- OneDropOrg [~onedrop@adsl-69-209-239-93.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:48 ed_g: FP is the same in Fortran and in CL. 22:12:12 Thra11 [~quassel@31.185.234.68] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:18:23 -!- Thra11 [~quassel@31.185.234.68] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:18:45 Denommus: the 10 second guide: use long floats and avoid subtraction (or addition of opposite signed values) 22:19:13 Thra11 [~quassel@31.185.144.104] has joined #lisp 22:19:33 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:18 and make sure your values are in the same order of magnitude. 22:21:06 Denommus: and don't use floats for coordinates, since e.g. the pythagorean theorum is hard to do with the 10 second guide 22:21:34 also with 64-bit word sizes, it's hard to argue that doubles are better for coordinates than integers 22:22:26 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 22:23:12 jasom: which fixed point format do you favour then? ;) 22:23:55 e.g. you can represent the entire solar system at a resolution of 1µm with fixed-point coordinates 22:24:45 (2^64) microns = 123.308868 Astronomical Units 22:26:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:41 jasom: so I will be fine if I use fixnum and don't sqrt with coordinates? 22:26:55 Denommus: or round after sqrt 22:27:53 you might have to conver the integer to a long float before calling sqrt though or you'll lost precision 22:28:10 IIRC sqrt of an integer returns a float, not a double 22:28:24 and single-floats don't have 32 bits of mantissa 22:28:32 for checking the distance between two points (so I can check if there is a sphere collision), I could compare the square distance, instead of the distance, with: (reduce #+ (map 'vector (lambda (x1 x2) (expt (- x1 x2) 2)) point1 point2)). I wouldn't have any float point there 22:28:48 yup 22:29:02 oh. So I'll be fine :) 22:30:01 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:30:18 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:30:29 and at 1mm resolution 64-bit sbcl fixnums give you +/- .487 light years 22:30:40 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 (unsigned byte 64) gives you +/- 1.9 light years 22:30:55 er signed-byte 22:31:32 huh, does rational trig get any use in computer graphics? (since you mentioned using square distances instead of distances) 22:31:50 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:32:17 ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.175] has joined #lisp 22:32:17 Bike: it just saves a sqrt, even when using floats, that's all 22:32:51 yeah, i'm just wondering if other aspects are used, like spread 22:33:12 just like an inverse square-root is useful for 3d stuff 22:33:18 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:33:52 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:54 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:37:34 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:38:01 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 22:38:19 -!- pmai [~Thunderbi@2001:470:1f15:3df:30af:289a:b914:7967] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:38:25 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:39:15 Denommus: oh, and if you're goint to use integer squares, you do run into fixnum limitations 22:39:23 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 22:40:26 antgreen [~green@64.56.251.86] has joined #lisp 22:40:28 you are limited to +/- 2147 km if you use 1mm resolution for example 22:42:30 or +/- 3000 km for signed-byte 64 22:42:54 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:51 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:51 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:43:51 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:43:56 agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:18 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abor127.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:45:17 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:45:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0022ec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:46:10 Bike: I've seen some lispers use weird mathsy stuff, but ISTM people mostly go for a rough approximation with floats, check if the rsult is trustable, and go for an arbitrary precision computation otherwise. 22:46:59 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@lvps5-35-242-57.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:38 insomniaSalt [~milan@lvps5-35-242-57.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:44 pkhuong: by "trustable" do they just reverse the operation and see if it's within a delta? 22:48:20 -!- SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mruyzgwykgdipfrv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:22 jasom: I don't think so, but I that's where I decide to just Trust The Experts ;) 22:48:32 yeah 22:48:44 floating point is hard 22:49:39 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:49:51 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b1178.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:07 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-gfeanrrcmjpjwtrb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:59 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:05:42 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-237-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:07:31 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:09:25 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 23:10:24 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@lvps5-35-242-57.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:01 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:17 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:11:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:11:44 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:24 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:29 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:42 I'm still trying to boot CLOS in my CL implementation. I think I figured out my problem but not the solution yet. 23:21:53 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:39 I'm using the ECL CLOS code and when it creates the class hierarchy it creates an instance of STANDARD-CLASS for every class. 23:22:40 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:23:12 The problem is that I already have a class hierarchy in place that consists of an instance of BUILT-IN-CLASS for every class. 23:24:06 I don't think I want two class hierarchies in place so I want to attach the CLOS hierarchy to the existing hierarchy. 23:25:42 So to do this I put all of my existing BUILT-IN-CLASSes into the a hash-table and when ECL CLOS goes to create the class hierarchy it checks first in the hash-table to see if there is a class already registered for that name. 23:26:15 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:26:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:10 So when it tries to create a class for FIXNUM (which I have) it gets my BUILT-IN-CLASS and when it tries to create a class for STANDARD-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION (which I don't have) it creates an instance of STANDARD-CLASS and initializes its slots. 23:27:29 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:28:23 Is this a good idea? A bad idea? Or an idea so wrong that it isn't even bad. 23:30:24 Of is this question too implementation specific for the group? 23:30:30 Or is... 23:31:03 drmeister: I suspect there's just nobody with an opinion on the topic handy. 23:31:11 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:31:16 No problem, I understand. 23:31:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:58 I toss out questions and often very high quality information comes back and sometimes not. I'll figure it out eventually. 23:34:43 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:09 BUILT-IN-CLASS has STANDARD-OBJECT in its class precedence list ... STANDARD-OBJECT is an instance of STANDARD-CLASS ... so .. hrm.... I just managed to confuse myself :| 23:39:22 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 23:40:44 pkhuong: easy is best, i guess 23:41:03 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 23:41:21 drmeister: i don't think i understand the problem. do you already have find-class? does ecl's clos overwrite it? 23:42:07 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:20 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:45:38 drmeister, have you read AMOP ? 23:45:44 Yes, I have my own FIND-CLASS and CLASS-OF functions. My FIND-CLASS uses the *class-name-hash-table* global variable that stores all of the classes by name in ECL CLOS so it exactly replicates what ECL's FIND-CLASS does. It is probably redundant. 23:45:58 Fare: Yes I've read AMOP. 23:46:12 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:28 the general idea looks familiar -- it's bootstrapping 23:46:32 i'd try excising the parts of ECL CLOS that overdefine what you've already got, but that's probably nontrivial 23:46:44 I think what I'm doing is allowed - its just messy implementation details. 23:47:01 and if you're into this kind of things, you can replace the bootstrapping function by the bootstrapped function once the initialization is done. 23:48:04 but yes, because of some circularities in the graph as specified, you'll have to do something magic at some point. 23:48:22 at some point == early on 23:48:24 i don't think that's his issue exactly 23:48:25 ECL implements classes as instances of INSTANCE and a class has 22 slots that store things like the class name, the class-precedence list, the direct-super-classes etc. 23:48:59 not sure what the problem is, besides the need for magic initialization 23:49:27 it seems that he already has some of CLOS running on his own, and now he's using ECL's CLOS, which tries to undo all of that 23:49:34 I have defined a C++ BUILT-IN-CLASS and created instances of it for all of the CL classes. 23:50:11 Bike: Right, I'm trying to merge my class hierarchy with the CLOS hierarchy 23:50:13 well, you will need to alter the c++ built-in-class to have class, standard-object as superclasses, since those don't yet exist i'm guessing 23:50:20 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:50:29 I thought you were trying to implement CLOS 23:50:54 so you have CLOS already working, but want to do merge a separate class hierarchy onto it? 23:51:18 Without loading ECL CLOS: (class-precedence-list (find-class 'built-in-class)) --> (# # # # ) 23:51:22 Fare: the reverse 23:51:41 oh, you have your pre-CLOS classes, and you want to shove the ECL CLOS on top of it? 23:51:55 drmeister: uh, ok, how do you not have clos if you have standard-object and class already 23:52:14 -!- v_ [~v@61.173.110.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:52:31 you may have to gut a lot of the ECL CLOS since you already have that part. 23:53:06 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:53:12 v_ [~v@61.173.110.43] has joined #lisp 23:53:28 I just noticed # as well. Let me check what I did there. 23:54:38 amop says CLASS should be an instance of STANDARD-CLASS (not BUILT-IN-CLASS), by the way 23:56:13 well, as long as BUILT-IN-CLASS is a subclass of STANDARD-CLASS, isn't that OK? 23:56:39 or does AMOP specify that? 23:56:41 Bike: I just saw that as well. 23:56:45 i don't think bic is allowed to subclass standard-class 23:57:13 that would seem kind of weird to me anyway, they're pretty different 23:59:03 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:04 Bike: I'll have to dig deeper to see where I do that. I have defined STANDARD-CLASS and STANDARD-OBJECT and T in my hierarchy several months ago and at the time I had the wherewithal to make STANDARD-OBJECT and instance of STANDARD-CLASS. 23:59:06 Denommus: Already, knowing about floating point helps: http://www.exploringbinary.com/the-four-stages-of-floating-point-competence/ http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html ; then of course, there are specialized numerical algorithms books. 23:59:06 23:59:08 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:42 Argh, I have to leave for a while - duty calls and I have to go grocery shopping. 23:59:57 "Consciously incompetent when you realize that most decimal fractions are infinite in binary." snerk