00:01:41 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@76-205-169-48.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:46 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:17 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:08:19 -!- moai [~m@141.70.23.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:15:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:14 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:43 this code is pure poetry: (sqrt (reduce #'+ (map 'vector #'(lambda (p1 p2) (* (- p1 p2) (- p1 p2))) point1 point2))) 00:20:59 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:55 Denommus: and it should work just fine, so long as the points are floats 00:22:27 sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.240.208] has joined #lisp 00:25:28 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:26:26 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:27:20 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:56 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:31 jasom: lists of floats 00:28:44 and yeah, on the context of my code, I check that :) 00:29:17 Denommus: make sure you are aware of the caveats of using floats as coordinates. There are a lot of "gotchas" there 00:30:14 jasom: oh, it's not geolocation. It's a simple game, it works fine in this context :) 00:30:21 (e.g. distance between p1 and p2 at origin vs distance between p1+1e10 and p2+1e10) 00:30:55 it does not make much of a difference on my game. I round it before drawing 00:30:59 *jasom* has played games that had really bizarre artifacts when you got too far from the map origin 00:31:17 it's just a space invaders clone, this won't happen :) 00:31:20 got a repo with 560000 commits, here. 00:31:22 indeed 00:35:02 that's impressive 00:35:06 akovalen` [~user@95.72.98.221] has joined #lisp 00:35:37 by the way lispworks:copy-file appears not to exist 00:35:46 at least in my Mac Professional Edition 6.0 00:36:27 asdf 2.32.5 seems to assume that as long as it's not Personal Edition it should have copy-file there 00:36:39 hmmm.. something is very weird: http://i.imgur.com/vl1w1IR.png 00:37:18 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:39:33 copy-file is in the LispWorks manual... 00:39:57 i wonder why it's missing from my lispworks. Sorry for the noise, I'll ask Lispworks. 00:41:16 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:05 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:47:19 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:20 also, the new cffi seems to be complaining of something that listbuilder-sdl does when it checks if the keyboard is pressed 00:50:18 oh, my mistake.. I forgot to rebuild the custom core :( 00:50:56 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:51:11 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 00:52:21 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:54:56 phew 00:56:05 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:56:10 rukubites [~user@d122-111-11-20.meb804.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:56:40 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-jvglobsudijbeyxu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:57:05 Are there any Hunchentootians around? I'm just converting some webservers to SSL, and I'm wondering whether it is possible to turn on SSL compression. 01:00:16 gendl: I could stop using copy-file altogether. Or do you have a criterion for when it's available? 01:01:43 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Farewell, farewell, God knows when we shall meet again. --Shakespeare] 01:01:59 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:22 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:40 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 01:05:05 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.6.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:05:41 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 01:06:07 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:28 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:55 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:11:06 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-snhpiofdoabljylo] has joined #lisp 01:14:03 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:14:22 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 01:14:41 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:32 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:15:38 ASau` [~user@46.115.44.212] has joined #lisp 01:16:09 Bike_ [~Glossina@207-224-22-243.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:22 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:17:17 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 01:17:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-239-237.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:17:37 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 01:18:25 Fare: I'm not sure yet. I dumped a console version, maybe that has to do with it. And i've been dragging feet on upgrading to 6.1 but I doubt that has to do with it. 01:18:53 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.38.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:18:57 I'll have to deal with it next week. I have a more urgent Allegro delivery at the moment to get out the door. 01:19:14 so back to that 01:19:54 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:08 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:22:11 welp I just tried with the full LW Mac application, and still not there "Error: Symbol "COPY-FILE" not found at all in the LISPWORKS package... 01:22:39 at all? 01:23:24 "Lispworks 6.0.0" 01:24:01 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:09 maybe needs 6.1? I'm sure most people are on 6.1. 01:25:00 anybody here can try on 6.1? 01:25:06 non-Personal edition? 01:25:25 or tell me real quick how to do the patch 01:25:57 (searching email for 6.1 release announcement...) 01:26:06 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:20 (embarrassed because it's like 1 1/2 years ago...) 01:27:10 oh wait. it's only a few months ago 01:27:14 11/20/12 01:27:33 which means 2012-11-20 01:27:47 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:29:27 nobody out of 365 people has LW ? WTF. 01:29:36 $$$ 01:30:05 *ipmonger* is too cheap 01:30:17 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.219.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:30:27 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.219.127] has joined #lisp 01:30:56 ok i'm downloading my 6.1 Now's as good a time as any but have to go back to other work in mean time, see you guys in a bit (was hoping to unplug the Internet for while, but oh well ;) 01:32:25 -!- chturne [~chturne@host81-157-142-209.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:28 tsetumel [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 01:33:48 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@76-205-169-48.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:34:45 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:54 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-209-205.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:41:06 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:21 -!- seafax [~70@unaffiliated/seafax] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:43:28 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:36 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:04 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:19 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:46:33 No idea what benefits LW gives over SBCL. But then I'm a linux guy. 01:47:23 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 01:47:42 There is COPY-FILE in CL-FAD...? 01:47:46 rukubites: does SBCL have CAPI? :) 01:48:41 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 01:48:42 Why bother though? I use webapps. 01:48:49 use/make. 01:49:17 ahhh... you mean benefits to /you/ :) 01:49:38 I argue that webapps benefit users more than local apps. 01:50:20 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:01 TDT` [~user@173-17-121-48.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:01 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:37 Heh... I remember creating something that looks like CAPI a long time ago. It was in ABCL, and was a wrapper around Java Swing widgets. 01:53:41 rukubites: asdf is a bootstrapping environment, by its nature it has to be self-contained and is not allowed to have dependencies. 01:53:58 rukubites: cool 01:54:01 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 01:54:09 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-121-48.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:54:09 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:20 gendl: I'm missing context? 01:54:57 rukubites: you suggested asdf use cl-fad 01:55:08 we were talking about asdf and uiop looking for copy-file, 01:55:12 you suggested cl-fad, 01:55:16 Bike: Oh, heh no I didn't... I missed the bit about asdf. 01:55:16 that is the context. 01:56:34 I wouldn't suggest asdf use libraries because that would be circular. 01:56:40 rukubites: using a commercial Lisp is like making a donation to an open-source project, but you get certain promises in return. 01:57:55 gendl: Yes, I also use allegro. But if it is in my capabilities, I also don't mind making pull requests with bugfixes. 01:58:58 I just said I didn't know what LW offers. And I don't - I've never installed it. For me CAPI is not compelling. :-) Happy for others to use it. Edi Weitz does, and he could lisp me under the table. :-) 01:59:54 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:58 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 02:00:06 rukubites: reading the LispWorks feature list would go a long way towards answering your question 02:00:45 rukubites: your /general/ question that is, not about you in particular :) 02:01:25 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA] 02:02:32 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:02:33 Eh, it was just an idle statement. I'd retract it if I could. :-) But IRC logs are forever. 02:02:44 lol 02:03:29 -!- tsetumel [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:06:10 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:13 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:43 Yeah, sometimes I spend whole evenings going through old IRC logs, pointing and laughing at the less inspired comments with unbridled glee 02:07:49 ...... said no one ever. 02:07:59 lies. 02:10:09 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-101-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:10:17 Someone said that right here: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2013-03/lisp-2013.03.15.txt 02:10:19 :-) 02:12:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@177.224.209.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:20:59 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:21:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:29:57 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 02:33:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:33:34 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:47 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:34:46 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-tuydzdqsqahuhdxt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:36:37 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.219.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:36:59 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.219.127] has joined #lisp 02:37:01 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:32 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:39:22 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 02:49:24 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 02:53:34 Fare: LW 6.1.1 works fine. 02:54:05 it was my bad for having an ancient LispWorks. Good on asdf for triggering me to update. 02:55:00 CL-USER 4 > (symbol-package 'copy-file) 02:55:00 # 02:55:36 I bet Personal Edition 6.1.1 has it too. 02:57:42 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:46 (symbol-package 'copy-file) => # ? 03:00:53 weird 03:02:45 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:54 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:07 bananagram [~bot@pool-108-56-161-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:15:07 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 03:17:08 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:25:54 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 03:29:45 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 03:31:07 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 03:35:12 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:38:50 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 03:48:02 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:48:03 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:03 -!- CrazyEddy [~epitrocho@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting] 03:48:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:49:03 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:49:46 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:24 IPmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:32 -!- rukubites [~user@d122-111-11-20.meb804.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:52:07 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:02 -!- IPmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:56 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:07 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:07 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:17 -!- bananagram [~bot@pool-108-56-161-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:09:03 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.38.151] has joined #lisp 04:09:39 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 04:10:13 _CTIRC [~CTIRC@S0106602ad07e872a.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:32 -!- _CTIRC [~CTIRC@S0106602ad07e872a.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:05 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:14:48 thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.56] has joined #lisp 04:16:05 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:17:40 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-126-92.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:19:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:42 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.38.151] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:22:58 hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 04:24:38 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:48 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:25:26 Fare: what does this mean in the run-program for #+allegro and #+os-windows: 04:25:42 :show-window #+os-windows (and pipe :hide) 04:25:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:26:46 what do I have to do to not have it popup a console window when running gs32c.exe ? 04:29:56 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 04:32:46 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:45 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:21 command is "\"c:\\gs\\gs8.63\\bin\\gswin32c.exe\" -q -sDEVICE=png16m \"-sOutputFile=C:\\Users\\dcooper8\\tmp\\2344-g160662.png\" -dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=4 -dSAFER -dBATCH -dNOPAUSE \"C:\\Users\\dcooper8\\tmp\\2344-g160662.pdf\"" 04:36:05 do i have to force a pipe somehow? 04:36:11 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:42 for now I just #+allegro (excl:run-shell-command command :show-window :hide), but flagged it to switch back to uiop:run-program when possible. 04:39:17 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:47 -!- robot-be` is now known as robot-beethoven 04:44:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.11.102] has joined #lisp 04:44:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.11.102] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:45:26 gendl: normally, if you redirect the output, it will hide the windo 04:45:41 but if you specify interactive output or output to console, it won't. 04:45:49 you mean with > or something ? 04:46:05 no, I mean with :output nil or :output (make-broadcast-stream) 04:46:06 redirect into a Lisp stream? 04:46:20 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:46:21 ok i'll try :output nil 04:46:53 also ... there may be bugs 04:47:03 it's not like I have a windows machine on which to run tests 04:47:12 heh 04:47:31 well i'm doing a tiny bit of them here. I know i need to get cl-test-grid set up on everything. 04:48:06 no banana :output nil is still showing the window, :output (make-broadcast-stream) results in no pretty picture. 04:48:21 no pretty picture? 04:48:30 no PNG output from gs 04:48:48 or maybe the output is going to my broadcast stream 04:49:10 no - it's going to a temp file 04:49:27 oh wait there's an error in console 04:49:36 'nil' is not of the expected type 'number' 04:49:44 if i use (make-broadcast-stream) 04:53:45 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53:50 oh well i'll have to get back to this after release is out the door. it's #+(and allegro mswindows) (excl:run-shell-command  ) for now 04:54:02 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:54:24 -!- karswell` [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:55:20 Is there a continue statement analog in LOOP? i.e. skip to next iteration? 05:06:53 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ddvuyfxiuptowwkm] has joined #lisp 05:07:56 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 05:13:37 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:34 Fare: if i have asdf 2.32.5 loaded during bootstrap, 05:17:44 then load a system which :depends-on :uiop, 05:18:01 it's going ahead and loading uiop on top of that, and spewing a bunch of redefinition warnings... 05:18:44 redline6561: not that i can think of, sounds like you might want tagbody 05:19:02 :-/ i had a feeling. thanks. 05:19:13 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ddvuyfxiuptowwkm] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:19:26 or named and return magic. 05:23:07 what is a font which works reasonably on emacs on windows? 05:23:17 sorry i'll go ask in #emacs 05:23:27 *sykopomp* is tempted to write a "Son of Parenscript". 05:23:40 with hunchentoot how can do I access the data send as part of multipart/form-data? The documentation says it is not available via raw-post-data because it has already been read by hunchentoot but does not seem to indicate how I access the data. 05:24:10 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:39 answer: i'm writing code in MS Comic Sans 05:24:44 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:25:40 good choice 05:26:26 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-29-220.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 05:29:19 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:34cf:4598:704:bf11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:29:20 -!- Bacteria_ is now known as Bacteria 05:29:29 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:55 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:01 it helps distract me from the fact that i'm gonna be up til 5am getting this release out the door... 05:33:02 some kind of spirit moved me to rip this whole damn thing apart and put it back together in the past few days. 05:33:09 i might be picking up some of Fare's asdf energy 05:33:10 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:34:00 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:37:46 Ok, hunchentoot places a file in /tmp/hunchentoot 05:38:12 but with what looks like a quite arbitrary name hunchentoot-n, where n is some number 05:39:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:12 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:40:42 well, hunchentoot:*tmp-files* has the name, but is strangely not exported 05:41:47 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 05:42:18 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:13 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 05:46:24 snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:03 -!- snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:48:02 snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:46 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-29-220.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 05:51:46 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 05:52:15 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.56] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:52:50 Guthur: why can't you use (post-parameters_? 05:53:07 H4ns: to specify the filename? 05:53:18 Guthur: to find the files that have been uploaded 05:55:10 it's not a normal form upload, it uses the HTML5 file-api to upload chunks 05:56:00 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 05:56:01 hunchentoot is creating a file for this chunks in /tmp/hunchentoot/ 05:56:38 Guthur: there is no support for that in hunchentoot, i fear 05:56:45 but I'm unsure of how to find out the name, other than checking hunchentoot::*tmp-files* 05:57:15 Guthur: i would advise against using internal symbols as that will probably break when the feature is properly supported. 05:57:32 H4ns most of it is done client side, and I do seem to receive the data, I just then need compile the chunks into a file again 05:58:30 -!- akovalen` [~user@95.72.98.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:58:32 Guthur: if you open up an issue with detailed information of what is going on (pointer to specs, code to reproduce), it will help me getting the feature into hunchentoot. 05:58:36 H4ns: wise advise, unfortunately i need chunked resumable uploads, uploading very large files 05:58:55 so outside of using a flash based solution this is the only other option I can see 05:59:21 Guthur: right. you can either use internal apis and loose the ability to upgrade hunchentoot. or you can help make hunchentoot support the feature. that is what i'm saying. 05:59:41 H4ns: cool, yeah I'll try to put something together 05:59:56 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 06:00:02 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 06:00:02 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 06:00:25 I think the server side should not require too many changes, you could pretty much leave it upto the application to compose the file out of the chunks 06:01:42 H4ns: is hunchentoot reading multipart/form-data and writing to tmp/hunchentoot/ as a convenience or is there a technical reason for it? 06:02:29 the basic issue is that hunchentoot uses an external library (rfc2388) to read multipart mime request bodies, and that library has a rather narrow api 06:03:08 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@87.115.125.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:03:27 the interaction between the library and hunchentoot has been an issue in the past, and it may be time to finally solve the problem by importing the library into hunchentoot or by replacing it completely. 06:03:29 ah ok, I'll try and write up some of the details so a possible solution might be found 06:03:42 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:03:49 yes please. i'm interested in solving this problem one and for all 06:03:56 I suspect it also has something to do with not running out of memory and so on. 06:04:30 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:04:35 jdz: "we need to talk" :) 06:07:49 Are any of you guys considered "security experts"? I just would like to know what is the recommended approach for estabilishing an encrypted stream, with a pre-shared key on both sides? Just creating an Ironclad cipher with the key works, but wouldn't that expose myself to replay attacks? 06:09:02 loke: the recommended way to deal with cryptography is to build some expertise yourself. 06:09:34 Yes, indeed. Another recommended way is to never trust your own code or your own implementations. 06:09:59 loke: that's not another way, but part of the recommended way :) 06:10:21 H4ns: I'm not uninformed when it comes to security, and I know the replay attack issue with a plain cipher. 06:10:22 loke: why can't you just use ssl? 06:10:24 H4ns: I don't suppose I can change the target filename in *file-upload-hook*? 06:10:42 Guthur: what does the documentation have to say about it? 06:10:49 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.133.85] has joined #lisp 06:11:24 H4ns: just says it is called before the file is created and is a unary function accepting the parthname of the file to be created 06:11:34 H4ns: I could, but it adds an FFI dependency. I was basically wondering if Ironclad could do the necessary for me 06:12:19 loke: ah. i see. well, i'd bite the ffi apple. 06:12:54 Guthur: no, you cannot change the file name. 06:12:54 H4ns: Now that I think about it it... Doesn't hunchentoot implement https without cl+ssl? 06:13:00 loke: it does. 06:13:07 H4ns: How does it do it? 06:13:31 loke: it calls cl+ssl:make-ssl-server-stream 06:13:56 Ahm with "it does" you mean that is uses it 06:13:57 loke: and it trusts the underlying ssl system to properly deal with certificates and protocol issues. 06:14:01 sorry for misunderstanding 06:14:03 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 06:14:08 loke: oh, sorry for misreading 06:14:22 loke: i read the "without" as "with" :) 06:14:32 ah 06:14:43 OK then. You convinced me. I'll got for cl+ssl 06:14:46 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.219.127] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:14:47 s/got/go/ 06:14:53 Thank you! 06:15:25 loke: yw. i think that is the best way to deal without without becoming a security expert :) 06:15:37 "with it without" 06:16:22 H4ns: Well yeah. I'm adding the encryption to lfarm. I already did it once using GSS, but a second security is implemented that can be used if you don't have a Kerberos server 06:16:30 netfrog [~ilya@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 06:16:46 s/implemented/needed/ 06:17:29 Can hunchentoot burden a heavy trafic web site such as a chess game site ? 06:18:12 sw2wolf: that is too general a question 06:19:27 sw2wolf: in order to build a responsive chess game server, the http server is only one aspect of a problem. i see no reason why hunchentoot could not be used, but careful engineering is required to decouple the web server from the game calculations. 06:19:29 then how many concurrent connections does hunchentoot support ? 06:20:00 sw2wolf: a couple hundred are not a problem with the one-thread-per-connection taskmaster 06:20:41 Is hunchentoot thread OS thread ? 06:20:46 sw2wolf: yes. 06:20:52 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:21:01 v [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 With one-thread-per-connection servers I've never had problems even with hitting several thousand threads 06:21:15 as long as you're not running Windows 06:21:28 of course , it is FreeBSD 06:21:33 not windows 06:22:28 when I think of high traffic web sites, chess games are not the first thing that comes to mind 06:22:30 sw2wolf: for maximum load resilience, i recommend putting hunchentoot behind a front end and running it single threaded, but that won't work for long-running requests and it also has latency implications. 06:22:57 Guthur: it might be that there is an established chess community that needs to be moved to a new server, right? 06:23:36 www.eweiqi.com 06:23:37 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:23:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:23:39 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:24:04 H4ns: maybe a speed chess community, hehe 06:24:10 you need to download client side software 06:24:10 That looks like go 06:24:21 it is Go 06:24:21 I don't speak chinese though 06:24:43 sw2wolf: i don't see the need for a large number of connections in a chess server, though 06:25:01 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:25:15 ah, well, yes, i see it now 06:25:21 you will see after installing client software 06:25:32 i'm not going to install any client software. 06:25:56 but it is not a human:computer thing, but rather kind of a chat server, right? 06:26:28 that starts to make more sense 06:26:35 not accurate 06:27:36 The server need to suppot at least 10,000 concurrent connection, i guess 06:27:52 well anyway: i would be lying if i claimed that hunchentoot would be a substrate that makes implementing c10k servers very easy. there are other server-side solutions where setting up a websocket server that can deal with a few thousand connections is much easier. 06:28:14 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:14 something with client-side software uses HTTP for comms? 06:28:31 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: x___x] 06:28:33 Bike: that'd make a hell of a lot of sense 06:29:12 Bike: nowadays, using anything other than web protocols for a system that needs to operate over the internet is just a bad idea. 06:29:50 i must be playing too many video games... 06:29:58 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 06:30:22 Bike: possible :) 06:31:02 Maybe erlang+yaws is another choice ? 06:31:22 sw2wolf: if you don't have to deal with huge amounts of state, then yes. 06:31:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.133.85] has left #lisp 06:31:58 *sw2wolf* need some guys to study erlang ... 06:32:11 sw2wolf: or java. or node.js. there are buttloads of options where you don't have to implement large parts of the infrastructure yourself. 06:32:42 sw2wolf: with java, you get the option of implementing your logic in cl 06:32:53 clojure ? 06:33:04 abcl 06:33:05 sw2wolf: clojure is not cl. abcl 06:33:15 thx 06:34:24 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:37:09 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:26 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:42:47 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:46:44 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 06:57:44 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:59:43 -!- loke [~loke__@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:00:00 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:53 emartenson_ [~emartenso@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 -!- emartenson_ [~emartenso@203.127.16.194] has quit [Client 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[~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:43 xan___ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:09:13 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-135-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:42 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:37 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 08:15:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-22-243.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:16:06 impomatic [~digital_w@123.177.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:54 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:12 -!- yroeht1 is now known as yroeht 08:19:57 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:22:39 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:25 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0ef8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:40 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:27:26 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-izvnbcaajknhtmnr] has joined #lisp 08:27:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:29:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-173.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 -!- ASau` [~user@46.115.44.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:32:51 moai [~m@141.70.23.87] has joined #lisp 08:44:01 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.1.162] has joined #lisp 08:45:14 ;Good morning! 08:45:22 ,morning 08:49:10 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 08:51:54 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 08:52:20 -!- v [~v@61.170.243.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:54:02 zorkmoid: hi 08:55:07 hi zorkmoid , hitecnologys . 08:55:40 zorkmoid: hi 08:55:58 hmm dto isnt a bot :) 08:56:25 why did you think i was? 08:56:35 Dublin Transportation Office\ 08:56:44 minion: what does DTO stand for? 08:56:44 Disharmonious Tritolo Overobjectify 08:56:53 ^^ 08:58:38 theos: are those anime smile eyes 08:58:47 or carets pointing to another line of text 08:58:54 second one 08:59:02 lol 08:59:26 anime eyes would be ^-^ no? 08:59:33 ok so i'm still not seeing the connection 08:59:40 that looks like stewie from family guy theos 08:59:41 see? bot 08:59:46 hahahaha 08:59:58 i dont watch family guy :/ 09:00:14 neither do i. i never really got into it, but i know what stewie looks like. 09:00:22 *stassats`* wonders when an on-topic discussion will commence 09:00:26 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:28 sorry stassats` . 09:01:41 minion: what does on-topic mean? 09:01:41 a banana 09:02:49 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:04:50 can a common lisp OS be installed on an embedded device? 09:05:08 v [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 09:06:18 once it's written, it can be installed on anything, including a banana 09:08:25 It exists, CLOS -- Common Lisp OS. 09:09:47 does it exist on a microcontroller based system? 09:10:26 What kind of "microcontroller based system"? 09:10:50 i was looking at movitz. i believe its not an OS. but something to run code etc. it was too complex for me to boot an image of it :( 09:11:15 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-135-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:11:40 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:41 CLOS is Common Lisp Object System, not Operating System. 09:12:11 oh. by OS i meant operating system 09:12:13 But, seriously, have someone ever tried to write OS on CL? 09:12:38 theos: I know, it just was my another stupid joke, lol. 09:12:50 ok :) 09:12:56 hitecnologys: Yes. Look up Genera 09:13:45 what would it take if someone wanted to write an CL OS in the 21st century. in 2013 09:13:57 theos: A screw loose? 09:14:06 It's fun, anyway. 09:14:20 hmm i kinda hoped the same loke 09:14:26 Fair enough. But you'd be crazy not to put it on top of an established kerbel 09:14:28 kernel 09:14:34 the same thing it would take someone to write an OS in any other language 09:14:57 You can take a linux kerbel and run SBCL instead of init. That'll give you your Lisp OS 09:15:01 now have fun 09:15:05 wtf 09:15:07 "kernel" 09:15:18 :) 09:15:22 It's not lisp os, it's just linux. 09:15:34 gnu-linux 09:15:37 I want *pure* lisp OS, lol. 09:15:45 hitecnologys: You're going to need a kernel anyhow. 09:15:50 hitecnologys: don't you also want a pony? 09:16:01 a kernel written in CL 09:16:07 n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:16:19 stassats`: I know, I can't always get what I want, sure. 09:16:31 theos: movitz 09:16:36 hitecnologys: but the CPU microcode is not written in CL 09:16:59 zorkmoid i tried making an image and booting it but it didnt boot :/ i must be doing something wrong 09:17:14 i will try again one day! 09:17:39 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-135-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:39 you haven't missed much 09:17:44 theos: then you have Genera, and System which ran on the lisp machines. 09:17:53 stassats`: CPU microcode can't be one pure lisp, it needs too much changes in our hardware. 09:18:28 too many /fix 09:19:10 hitecnologys: cpu microcode can be lisp 09:19:51 zorkmoid: not on Intel chips. 09:20:10 hitecnologys: obviously, but that is not what you said. 09:20:17 for example, http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5731/AIM-514.pdf?sequence=2 09:20:46 I said that we need to change to many things on our computers to make CPU run lisp. 09:20:54 but transistors are not Lisp 09:21:07 hitecnologys: no, we don't, i am running lisp today on my computer. 09:21:23 lol 09:21:32 -!- n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:21:54 it just isn't lisp all the way down, which it doesn't need to be. 09:22:00 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:18 stassats`: How did you know that? Maybe god wrote our world on lisp? 09:22:26 n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:22:37 okie, silly person i guess... 09:22:40 going on about god 09:22:48 I don't belive in god. 09:22:59 That was my another stupid joke. 09:23:27 it doesn't metter, curch is there!....lol 09:23:34 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 09:23:34 -_- 09:24:06 church? 09:24:15 Anyway, running machine instructions of compiled SBCL on CPU != running lisp on CPU. 09:25:26 hitecnologys: is compiling C to a binary running C on the cpu? 09:25:41 zorkmoid: nope. 09:25:59 hitecnologys: so you are not running anything in C right now, like presumably, your kernel? 09:26:27 hitecnologys runs genera, because it's fabulous 09:26:39 lol 09:26:52 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 09:27:12 hitecnologys: cpu microcode doesn't need to "be on lisp". each environment is just a bridge over a lower level of abstraction... if your lisp os (or, rather anything higher level) _emits_ FPGA configurations, then it's good enough for me... :) 09:27:31 That's exactly what I said. 09:28:15 We don't need to make our CPU run lisp natively. 09:28:30 Who gives a damn how your machine is implemented? 09:29:02 Nobody. 09:29:17 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:22 people implementing machines, and those whow rite compilers. 09:29:31 and anyone doing anything with hardware (like me) 09:30:28 nobody, as long as it runs fast and consumes little 09:30:40 I can't understand about what we are arguing ._. 09:31:33 ...although, I must add, that having good introspective capabilities is also very important when working more _on_ the system than with the system (which is never a clear cut, or it wouldn't be with sane computing systems) 09:31:43 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:32:02 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7544df.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:59 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 09:37:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:25 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:39:22 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 09:40:57 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:40:59 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:56 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47:48 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.240.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:42 Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:53:07 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 09:54:13 MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:35 -!- milosn_ is now known as milosn 09:59:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:59:59 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 10:01:31 SanderM [~quassel@2001:610:180:1:e2cb:4eff:fe41:41d] has joined #lisp 10:02:10 zorkmoid: Nonsense. How the machine is implemented has no affect on compilers targetting the machine. 10:03:23 s/has no affect on/does not affect/ 10:03:46 well, other than "how to optimize code" 10:03:47 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:04:18 taraz [~user@p578E668B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:56 Not even that. 10:05:55 -!- oticat` [~oticat@36-224-96-93.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:06:48 Zhivago: well, there are differences between different implementations of the same ISA that impact optimization (for example different cache behaviour, separate issue ports for different kinds of instructions for superscalar designs, etc.) 10:07:11 doesn't impact language itself, though 10:07:42 Sure, but those are still different machines. 10:09:43 Zhivago: i've written enough compilers in my day to know that the machine does affect how the compiler is written. 10:10:21 You didn't read what I wrote. 10:10:35 Zhivago: yeah, i did. please stop being presumtious, and snarky. 10:10:39 The machine does -- how the machine is implemented doesn't. 10:10:52 Then you have a severe reading comprehension problem. 10:13:51 or there is mismatch in how either of you understand "machine" 10:19:05 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:21:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:24:44 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a5b.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:30:03 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 momo-rei` [~user@110.50.241.74] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a5b.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:33:46 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:07 -!- cibs [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:35:37 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:59 -!- v [~v@199.68.198.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:41:45 -!- cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:44:32 agumonke1 [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:07 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 10:46:25 -!- davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:49:12 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:59:39 cibs [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has joined #lisp 11:00:06 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:50 -!- momo-rei` [~user@110.50.241.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:07 momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.74] has joined #lisp 11:01:23 JohnnyL [~chatzilla@ool-457a8633.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:10 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:06:43 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 11:08:50 krrrcks [~dbr@89-26-118-18.hage.stat.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 11:17:51 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-166-124.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:56 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:19:46 chebastian [~chebastia@c-9b72e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:20:51 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:21:54 -!- momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:46 -!- renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 11:27:22 renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:14 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.146] has joined #lisp 11:30:04 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 11:32:33 Zhivago: if the machine has different regions for code and data, then yes, it does affect the compiler, if the machine is implemented as a stack machine instead of a regsiter machine, then yes, it affects the compiler, your talking nonsense about a topic you have no knowledge about. 11:33:34 v0yager_ [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 11:33:43 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:34:05 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:34:42 frgo [~user@p5B0DA96D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:30 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:36:09 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:36:56 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:37:16 Anyone been doing bindings to OpenDDS (http://www.opendds.org) or even RTI's Connext DDS ? 11:37:28 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:46 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: i will be back...nvm] 11:42:04 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:18 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 11:49:35 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 11:53:24 bitonic [~user@dyn1219-247.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 segv- [~mb@dslb-188-102-045-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:00 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:04:30 -!- cibs [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:05:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:06:50 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:18e2:aa6a:790:d3bc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:33 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:51 danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:7c33:cc1b:83a0:4e82] has joined #lisp 12:08:08 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 12:12:38 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: be riiiiiiiight back, gotta restart using new code. Curious about me? Stop by #antispammeta] 12:12:50 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 12:13:37 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:13:40 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:41 -!- n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:23:11 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:23:41 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:50 frgo: I haven't seen anything like that 12:29:50 momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.76] has joined #lisp 12:30:08 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:33 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:11 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:04 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:19 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:37 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 12:37:48 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 12:37:50 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-tfbalawyclldgihv] has joined #lisp 12:39:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:03 -!- momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:23 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.247.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:40:48 -!- frgo [~user@p5B0DA96D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:41:54 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:45:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:17 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:55:14 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:54 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-20-44.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:00:10 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:10 linse_ [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:00:50 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:55 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:07 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:04:15 v [~v@61.170.243.252] has joined #lisp 13:05:37 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:05:48 Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.163.103] has joined #lisp 13:06:05 -!- prip_ [~foo@host13-123-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:06:49 prip_ [~foo@host13-123-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:07:12 hmph 13:07:52 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:08:09 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 13:08:13 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:08:26 masondesu [~textual@adsl-74-177-117-239.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:48 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:10 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:10:16 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 13:13:46 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7544df.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:15:54 serichsen [~user@195.180.2.195] has joined #lisp 13:16:00 Moin! 13:16:35 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:00 evin 13:17:52 -!- moai [~m@141.70.23.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:18:12 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 13:21:04 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:46 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 13:25:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:25 -!- masondesu [~textual@adsl-74-177-117-239.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:29:00 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:30:09 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 13:31:03 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:20 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:21 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:33:04 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:33:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.11.102] has joined #lisp 13:33:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.11.102] has quit [Changing host] 13:33:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:33:41 having problems getting the othello.lisp to run for sbcl, paip, getting error on -1 is not of type float-blah etc..., in the examples.lisp 13:33:55 any idea ? 13:34:05 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:35:58 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 13:36:54 wbooze: -1.0 13:38:44 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:31 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:42:34 ikki [~ikki@187.208.253.215] has joined #lisp 13:43:41 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:49 -!- cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:49:02 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 13:50:25 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:51:13 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:42 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:54:09 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1219-247.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:55:19 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:05 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-237-162.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:18 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:00:03 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 14:00:21 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.121.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:44 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.122.117] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:28 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:04:05 -!- v0yager_ [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:05 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:04:37 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 14:06:29 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 14:09:56 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:21 any windows user to try an asdf patch on allegro? 14:12:17 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 14:12:22 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:01 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:52 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:18:41 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 14:27:15 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:46 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:57 thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.128] has joined #lisp 14:32:42 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Quit: reboot for osx 10.8.3] 14:36:03 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:38:49 I'm having inconsistent results while trying to get eigenvalues using Lisplab. Anyone used this and knows how maintained it is? I've sent an email to the mailing list this morning and its still up for moderation. 14:39:46 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:55 -!- krrrcks [~dbr@89-26-118-18.hage.stat.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 14:46:15 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 14:46:53 bitonic [~user@dyn901-29.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:47:30 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:48 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 14:48:01 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:50:27 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:31 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:50:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:52:08 -!- linse_ [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:54:36 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.20.128] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:55:09 Kenjin: do you have an example? 14:55:39 Sure. I can paste most of the email I sent, which has an example 14:55:49 link preferbly. ... 14:56:00 <`26> Wow, CL arrays are awesome. 14:56:10 yes triple indirection is so cool 14:56:21 zorkmoid: https://gist.github.com/jsmpereira/5170420 14:56:29 `26: what do you mean? :-) 14:56:51 <`26> Qworkescence: Um, were you talking to me? 14:56:56 yes 14:57:12 <`26> Qworkescence: I'm quite new to them, where do you see triple indirection? 14:57:41 <`26> I would notice double indirection if one uses :adjustable t, I suppose. 14:57:49 `26, i mean they are magical for a reason, and it is not uncommon for an implementation to have that many levels of indirection in order to access an element 14:57:58 Kenjin: mmm... have you tried debugging that function? 14:59:01 <`26> Qworkescence: Are you referring to the general case or a specific case (or class of cases) when you use a bunch of options at its creation? 14:59:14 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.148.197.209] has joined #lisp 14:59:16 `26, general 14:59:30 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 15:00:12 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:38 Kenjin: i can't compile it in cmucl hmph 15:00:53 I'm using sbcl 15:00:56 <`26> Qworkescence: Interesting. What feature or part of CL arrays requires multiple indirection when creating a (by-default) non-resizable untyped r/w array? 15:01:51 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.122.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:01:51 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 15:02:03 `26, i'll leave that question for someone who is better versed in implementation specifics ( Krystof ? ) 15:02:10 Kenjin: put a breakpoint in the offending function, and see what happens, and try and understand why. 15:03:37 zorkmoid: are you talking about the dgeev? 15:03:39 Kenjin: also double check the type of your matrix .. 15:03:44 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:04:04 Qworkescence: what kind of indirection are you talking about? 15:04:25 Kenjin: i don't have such a thin in my copy of lisplab 15:04:48 Kenjin: you _could_ try matlisp 15:04:56 stassats`, i remember nikodemus talking about lots of indirection in accessing array elts 15:05:18 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:06:36 simple arrays don't have indirection, unless you consider bounds checking as indirection 15:07:24 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:31 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:41 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:19 okay, then i must be wrong and i concede my comment 15:08:46 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:08:48 but non-simple arrays can have an unlimited number of indirection 15:09:04 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:08 simple non-1d arrays tend to have one indirection 15:11:33 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:11:35 it's not actually necessary but it's a reasonable implementation strategy 15:12:37 <`26> Krystof: Why is it reasonable? Is it because the common internal implementation of multidimensional arrays is array-of-array-pointers? 15:12:50 no, it's pointer to 1d-array 15:13:39 <`26> Krystof: Oh, wait, you meant one indirection as in the same as for 1d array? 15:13:49 no, I count 1d arrays as having no indirection 15:14:03 1d arrays are [header word | length | value | value | value] directly in memory 15:14:26 What is the difference between SUBST and SUBSTITUTE? I really can't see it ._. 15:14:30 <`26> Right. And n-d, n>1, arrays? 15:14:44 hitecnologys: subst works on trees 15:15:00 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:08 stassats`: I see. But substitute don't? 15:15:17 clhs substitute 15:15:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm 15:15:18 clhs subst 15:15:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_substc.htm 15:15:19 generic arrays are [header word|fill-pointer|fill-pointer-p|elements|pointer-to-vector|displacement|displacedp|displaced-from|dimensions] 15:15:26 enjoy 15:16:00 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:23 I've read it, but I'm so dumb that I can't see any difference except that substitute can work on sequences, lol. 15:16:24 it's a question of what you think is common. If you think "type testing for simple one-dimensional vectors" is a common operation, then it makes sense to separate one-dimensional vectors from others 15:16:25 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 zorkmoid: sorry about that. Lost connection 15:16:46 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:46 if you think "type testing for arrays (of whatever dimension) specialized on double-floats" is a common operation, you might slice the space another way 15:17:13 <`26> Krystof: You're quite right. Thank you. 15:18:52 -!- v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:10 stassats`: That's it? subseq can't work on sequences, but substitute can? 15:19:30 do you know what is a tree? 15:19:44 I guess... 15:19:50 It's list? 15:19:52 Fare: what does it mean if a monofasl created with asdf/bundle:monolithic-fasl gives "undefined package" errors when being loaded into a fresh system, 15:19:52 hitecnologys: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#tree 15:19:59 clhs glossary/tree 15:19:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#tree 15:20:18 when the system seems to load ok info a fresh system with a normal (asdf:load-system )? 15:20:35 can the dependencies get picked up in a different order for the bundle operation, 15:20:39 than for the normal load operation? 15:20:44 Oh shit, I'm idiot. 15:20:45 is there some non-determinism there? 15:20:46 Thanks. 15:20:53 I got it. 15:21:42 somehow had a cool link that listed new cl projects on gitfrob or whatever it is called .. anyone remeber that? 15:22:07 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:22:28 zorkmoid: Xach has an RSS feed for the new common lisp repositories on github. is it that what you are looking for? 15:22:47 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-173.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:23:06 madnificent: yes! 15:23:39 minion: tell Fare to read my posts when he shows up, if he pleases. 15:23:39 Fare: and if not? 15:24:00 minion: if not then he should feel free to ignore them, of course. 15:24:01 what would you do otherwise? 15:24:19 :D 15:24:23 Wow, minion is smart guy. 15:24:24 looks like minion has gone into Eliza mode 15:24:26 minion: otherwise I will report back to him when I know something. 15:24:26 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 47 seconds is too many. 15:24:34 zorkmoid: it's an atom feed, apparently, but it is at http://planet.lisp.org/github.atom 15:24:40 Oh god. 15:25:35 minion: chant 15:25:35 MORE EXPLICIT 15:26:00 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:27:38 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:28:24 madnificent: awesome! 15:28:41 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Feierabend!] 15:29:07 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:14 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 15:30:48 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-29.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:31:26 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:54 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:17 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:35 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:38 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:34:07 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:35:17 bitonic [~user@dyn901-29.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:38:59 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:39:24 minion: help on memos 15:39:24 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 15:39:42 n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 zorkmoid: could you take a peek? https://gist.github.com/jsmpereira/5170420#comment-799132 15:42:48 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 15:43:31 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:11 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:44:57 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:33 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 15:45:33 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:45:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:52 -!- MoALTz is now known as Guest45493 15:47:52 -!- Guest45493 [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 15:47:53 -!- MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 15:48:25 is the usa already in daylight savings time? 15:48:46 <`26> H4ns: t 15:49:28 ta 15:50:57 sorry i was away i didn't get the response of someone 15:51:08 erm, my question was about a type error 15:51:23 and i don't know what's causing it.... 15:51:50 it's in paip's othello.lisp, actually the examples.lisp runs until some error.... 15:52:07 wbooze: the answer was 1.0 15:53:19 <`26> wbooze: [09:36:55] wbooze: -1.0 15:53:34 <`26> (I added the slash so it doesn't highlight them) 15:54:37 gendl: hi 15:54:40 gendl: herep 15:54:54 it probably means you failed to (require) some dependencies. 15:55:12 what package do you find to be undefined? 15:55:30 that's an answer ? 15:55:51 wth 15:56:03 <`26> wbooze: I think what they meant is that you should use "-1.0" instead of "-1" in your code, since the former is a float and the latter is an integer. 15:57:09 -1 is not -1.0, that i know too....but all things are declared constant and deftype of piece is integer...., so which part is causing it ? 15:57:55 anyone in for some psychic debugging? 15:58:02 oO, defconstant all-directions "-11 -9 -5 -1 1 5 9 11" -> defconstant all-directions "-11.0...." etc ? 15:58:08 <`26> let me get my crystal ball 15:58:09 H4ns: misplaced parenthesis 15:58:09 H4ns: it's a concurrency problem 15:58:55 :D 15:59:33 well it's a big customer application 15:59:51 they have a :functions package which most of their other stuff depends on 15:59:53 gendl, so, what package missing? anything from a require? 16:00:11 it all should be sorted by asdf :depends-on, there's no require involved 16:00:12 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:18 does your monofasl :depends-on whatever defines :functions ? 16:00:25 indirectly 16:00:43 directly and indirectly. 16:00:45 or is it provided by :defsystem-depends-on ? 16:00:52 but not depends-on ? 16:01:04 there is no :defsystem-depends-on used at all. 16:01:08 only :depends-on 16:01:28 is it loaded manually in the .asd but not present as :depends-on ? 16:01:37 no. it is present as :depends-on. 16:01:39 does it show in (traverse 'load-op :system) ? 16:01:46 i will check. 16:01:54 i just now got a copy of the code, 16:02:04 i had been coaching the guy through a shared screen 16:02:20 did you use :force-not ? 16:02:25 but i didn't want to take any more of his time so now i have it here, i'll try it myself and see what we're dealing with... 16:02:27 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:28 no. 16:02:41 only :depends-on, that's it 16:02:51 force-not for what? 16:03:00 while creating the monofasl 16:03:03 no. 16:03:13 did he use 'fasl-op instead of 'monolithic-fasl-op ? 16:03:16 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:03:30 but expect the result of the latter? 16:03:31 he used 'asdf/bundle:monolithic-fasl-op 16:03:43 interestingly, it produced both fasls, 16:03:50 kmb [~kmb@rrcs-50-75-221-94.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-173.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:04:12 is he using an asdf version written by a blockhead french/vietnamese dude? 16:04:17 it produced a my-app--system.fasl as well as a my-app--all-systems.fasl 16:04:21 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:04:39 is he loading the former or the latter? 16:05:00 yes -- monolithic-fasl-op produces the fasl-op's then links them together 16:05:06 it is 2.32.1 loaded on top of 2. 16:05:18 shouldn't matter. 16:05:20 allegro? 16:05:23 yes. 16:05:43 i've made it work on allegro for my own systems. I did have some apparent dependency differences, 16:05:59 btw, I committed the :hide fix in 2.32.9 -- please tell me if that satisfies you, at some point. 16:06:01 where i had been getting "lucky" when loading with normal (asdf:load-system ) 16:06:02 v0yager [~v0yager@173.247.9.54] has joined #lisp 16:06:16 but it crashed with undefined package from the monofasl, 16:06:41 i fixed it by adding some missing dependency, which had not been causing prob. in normal loading but did cause prob in monofasl. 16:06:53 i need to learn how to study traverse-dependencies etc. better. 16:06:55 weird. 16:07:09 a defsystem-depends-on w/o a depends-on can cause this 16:07:27 i'll make sure, but i've never used a defsystem-depends-on anywhere myself. 16:07:30 (and sometimes, it's a feature) 16:07:50 or manual things that people do that are not even defsystem-depends-on can cause this, too 16:08:09 well i have the code here, no need for further speculation, i'll play with it. 16:08:11 dunno about asdf-system-connections, but yes, it might do that, too 16:08:40 i'll get 2.32.9 and check out the window thingie too a bit later... 16:09:00 Many things that people do are incompatible with bundle's. 16:09:05 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:09:32 -!- n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-173.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:10:09 i hope i and my customer are not some of those people. 16:10:57 another thing is, we didn't delete the fasl cache before starting all this, 16:11:08 maybe some old fasl had symbol residue for some reason 16:11:14 and didn't happen to get recompiled 16:11:19 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-29.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:11:30 so if it works for me, i'll speculate that was the problem. 16:11:43 anyway enough of speculation for now. bye bye. 16:14:02 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:15:42 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 16:16:15 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:20 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-izvnbcaajknhtmnr] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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17:24:59 nope 17:26:54 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:54 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-135-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:28:18 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:28:23 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-22-243.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:55 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:33 why not? I seems to be a surprisingly easy call that way 17:29:43 why not? Is emacs "fast enough" today to not matter? 17:29:45 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:14 -!- xan___ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:31 whartung: Well when you don't need to do hard-core multitasking. :-P 17:31:42 slime arranges to compile important functions anyway 17:32:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:33:00 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-22-243.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:18 *youlysses* wonders if anyone has attempted a Wayland-compositor in CL or Scheme yet. 17:35:27 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 17:37:50 -!- SanderM [~quassel@2001:610:180:1:e2cb:4eff:fe41:41d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:56 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:02 -!- zophy 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[~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 19:12:46 Greetings lispers 19:12:56 ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-hbhbhtrspokrrwel] has joined #lisp 19:13:04 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 19:13:39 enderoute [~enderoute@50.0.192.21] has joined #lisp 19:13:43 i'm getting different results from the debugger in slime using CCL vs SBCL, example when i'm at a break it cant 19:13:51 seem to find the line of code its breaked at, i'm using (opt 19:14:47 sorry, pasted wrong: i'm using (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0) (size 0)) but CCL can't find were i'm breaked at, SBCL has no problem, any ideas? 19:15:25 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.163.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:16:22 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.141.244] has joined #lisp 19:17:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:31 brighid [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has joined #lisp 19:21:45 sbcl is better at this 19:28:13 -!- enderoute [~enderoute@50.0.192.21] has quit [Quit: [BX] They killed Kenny! THOSE BASTARDS!] 19:28:51 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:29:37 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:39 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:30:01 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:13 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:45 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has left #lisp 19:33:15 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:57 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:13 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:37 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:01 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:35:56 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.141.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:37:59 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:38:43 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:42:21 *Fare* discovers methods with multiple qualifiers. Has anyone used them before, or seen them used? 19:42:29 Any :before :after :before methods? 19:42:42 Those combinations are exclusive. 19:42:54 Can I have a :with-structured #(qualifiers) 19:42:55 <`26> --mutually-- 19:42:56 i don't think you can do that with the standard method combination 19:42:59 But you could have :before :list for a :list method. 19:43:10 or :after :add for a :add method. 19:43:19 :around :add :trace 19:43:20 etc. 19:43:43 yes, `26, mutually exclusives. 19:43:51 <`26> :) 19:44:15 are the qualifiers ordered or unordered? 19:44:30 Let me check with Sonia. 19:44:57 i think they're ordered. clhs define-method-combination goes oer it in some detail 19:47:17 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:47 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:09 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:48:38 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:06 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:50:01 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:50:44 -!- ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-hbhbhtrspokrrwel] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:54 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.141.244] has joined #lisp 19:52:00 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:32 Perhaps it depends on the method-combination. I'm not sure. 19:53:07 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:53:15 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:54:38 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:57:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:58:03 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-35.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:38 -!- chupish [18b8ecba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.184.236.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:14 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 20:00:47 whoa, define-method-combination makes my head hurt. 20:01:10 It's where a lot of CLOS magic happens. 20:01:35 Kind of a defsetf on steroids. 20:02:38 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:14 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.71.78] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:45 it seems like it should be useful, but i've never seen it really used (I think mcclim does? and somebody put method-combination-utilities in ql), possibly because of the head-hurting aspet. 20:03:50 aspect 20:06:42 i once learned how to use it, only to figure out that it doesn't do what i want 20:07:02 what did you want? 20:07:09 i don't remember 20:07:39 zickzackv [~faot@g226063244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:11 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:49 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 20:12:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-101-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:41 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:16:54 ok, another bug in asdf, whereby a system a can be compiled multiple times if b depends-on a then on something that defsystem-depends-on a --- and once again, it looks like antifuchs' original poiu had a test that corresponds exactly to that case. 20:17:40 (that I removed when I rewrote it, because I didn't see what the hell it was about) 20:17:50 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-78-150.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:18:17 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:18 Fare: oh well. 20:18:33 admittedly, i probably would have done the same thing. 20:18:55 if i don't understand it, take it out until it breaks. 20:19:05 risky, but sometimes necessary. 20:19:58 by the way, i'm finding a slew of undefined packages in this monofasl, it's as if the dependencies didn't make it in somehow, 20:20:08 or came in not quite the right order 20:20:20 or maybe the exact opposite of the right order 20:21:10 oops 20:21:21 is it allegro? 20:21:24 yep 20:21:27 then we're concatenating 20:21:31 yep 20:21:38 can you check the size of the monofasl vs the sizes of the many fasls? 20:21:47 yep i will 20:21:52 if it's the sum, then we concatenated them all, and it's an order issue 20:21:59 it's interesting, it says "Cannot find package #:functions" 20:22:03 why the # ? 20:22:13 there's no #:functions occurring anywhere in the code 20:22:25 packages are always named by keyword symbol. 20:22:29 maybe allegro is normalizing package names internally 20:22:38 ok 20:22:39 only a string matters 20:23:08 package name is a string 20:23:08 and it's possibly using (uninterned) symbols to preserve the case customarily used by programmers 20:24:01 I tend to use keywords for package name, because I like it interned in that package 20:24:23 meh -- I don't know how to fix the bug while respecting :force without adding keyword args to perform-plan, thus breaking the current API 20:24:56 bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has joined #lisp 20:25:21 how does adding keyword args break the API? 20:25:32 it won't hurt current callers who aren't using them, will it? 20:25:35 but, for :IMPORT-FROM an :EXPORT I use #:symbols, because of the whole "preserve the case customarily used by programmers" thing, and I like symbols over strings when referring to symbols 20:25:44 Xach: herep? Is there a way to garbage collect old quicklisp software? 20:26:24 gendl: no break callers -- but break specializers (if any -- why I suppose not in this case) 20:27:17 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5DC627A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:27:27 monofasl is definitely bigger than its component systems 20:27:37 looks big enough to be made up of all of them (i didn't compute exactly) 20:27:58 i can try concatenating them myself -- what's the best way to get the list ? 20:28:16 (asdf:traverse 'asdf:load-op :my-system) returned nil for me. 20:28:28 it thought about it for quite some time, then returned nil. 20:28:34 Petit_Dejeuner_ [~andrew@108-203-203-37.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:38 I'm wondering if there's already a CL lib to parse Emacs Muse format 20:29:24 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:56 Hey, are there any good guides for the asdf system for common lisp? I've been going through PCL and I had an idea of a program I wanted to write, but I'm having trouble loading/installing the library ( https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro ) I want to use. 20:30:19 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:11 Petit_Dejeuner_: do you know about Quicklisp? 20:31:16 Petit_Dejeuner_: ask the maintainers to get it added to Quicklisp. 20:31:23 dim, Kinda, but I'd assume it wouldn't be in quicklisp 20:31:43 don't assume, just do (ql:system-apropos "allegro") and see for yourself 20:31:48 and adding it do the local dist does not work? ;) 20:31:56 s/do/to 20:31:58 then that :) 20:32:08 gendl, drewc I tried changing emacs cwd to it, but it still tried to load it off the internet 20:32:27 tried to load what off the internet? 20:32:28 drewc: you did cl-org-mode, right? heard about cl-emacs-muse? 20:32:53 gendl, the library, I typed "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cl-liballegro)" as part of a tutorial 20:32:56 -!- brighid [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:03 dim, it gave me nil 20:33:03 dim: nope ... it exists? 20:33:10 maybe not yet 20:33:12 1. install Quicklisp. 20:33:12 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:23 2. put your library into .../quicklisp/local-projects/ 20:33:25 Petit_Dejeuner_: so, it is working then? 20:33:34 3. load the quicklisp setup.lisp 20:33:43 drewc, when I typed it in it failed to load the file 20:33:46 4. (ql:quickload ) 20:33:47 brighid [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has joined #lisp 20:33:52 what file? 20:33:53 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:34:02 cl-allegrolib 20:34:04 ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-irnkgctvewrdomqn] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 er liballegro 20:34:18 but I'm thinking I need a new theme for tapoueh.org, and I'm kind of tired of maintaining my Muse Emacs Lisp layer of code (at http://tapoueh.org/tapoueh.el.html), so while changing the theme I might as well turn tapoueh.org into a CL based website entirely 20:35:13 like Emacs Muse for the markup, git for the storage, and CL with hunchentoot for serving the content with on the fly dynamic conversion, adding in comments etc 20:35:21 I don't know, just playing with ideas in my mind 20:35:49 dim: o-blog 20:36:05 I *hate* org-mode for editing articles with a passion 20:36:16 I would prefer converting all my contents from Muse to Markdown 20:36:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:35 and I would much prefer not to convert any of my contents 20:36:52 dim: why? I think org-mode is great for prose 20:37:26 ok, maybe it's only me, it's not usable for me for prose 20:37:38 too many visible markup, that's not what I want to see 20:37:50 Emacs Muse buffers are awesome for prose 20:37:58 gendl, should the library directory be inside local-projects, or just the files? 20:38:12 look at that: http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/temp/Emacs-Muse.png 20:38:36 the whole library intact 20:38:46 just drop 'er in there 20:39:08 clean out all fasls for good measure 20:39:20 (if there are any) 20:39:35 dim: well, I use o-blog, and http://common-lisp.net is o-blog based, so I cannot help you .. but! ... 20:40:02 o-blog is a friend's reaction to my Muse based publishing env :) 20:40:11 renard? :) 20:40:18 dim: the only think I'm seeing different there is that the markup for underline is hidden 20:40:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:28 gendl, okay, so I have my files in "lispbox-0.7\quicklisp\local-projects\cl-liballegro\", but it still tells me "System "cl-liballegro" not found" when I type (ql:quickload 'cl-liballegro) 20:40:30 renard indeed 20:40:47 (ql:register-local-projects) 20:40:50 then try again 20:40:56 Denommus: that does not match my org-mode experience at all, I might have to try it again... 20:41:09 dim: cool, I like having connections like that :) 20:41:23 dim: but I don't rememeber if org shows images directly in the buffer, though 20:41:24 on to the BUT! : https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/monparsing.org 20:41:36 and smug in general ... 20:41:38 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:46 makes it 'easy' to create a parser ... 20:41:49 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:41:57 gendl, er, "Reader error: No external symbol named "REGISTER-LOCAL-PROJECTS" in package # ." 20:41:59 and can work in elisp as well as CL 20:42:16 yeah I have smug on my todo list to parse COPY like statements, or enriched LOAD statements, and also SQL*Loader control files 20:42:27 did you load the full quicklisp? 20:42:34 I mean install it? 20:42:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:42:41 for another project (pgloader, currently under CL rewriting) 20:42:43 gendl, I'm just using lisp in a box 20:42:58 go to www.quicklisp.org and follow the directions there. 20:43:07 you get a "bootstrap" quicklisp.lisp file first, 20:43:09 load that, 20:43:18 then it tells you what to type to get the rest of quicklisp 20:43:19 dim: well, I am currently re-doing smug to be more monad based, but, the plain old CL is fine, and is a great parser 20:43:39 move your lisp-in-a-box stuff out of the way for the time being, if you can. 20:44:04 dim: if you look at monparsing.org, it is the original Haskell (actually Gofer) based paper, with the common lisp src added to it 20:44:17 [is lisp-in-a-box maintained these days?] 20:44:40 yeah, it doesn't. You have to press C-c C-o to see the image. Credit to Muse, then 20:44:47 answer: http://gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/ 20:44:50 and since github org mode parser is messed up., raw : https://raw.github.com/drewc/smug/master/doc/monparsing.org 20:44:55 key word "active nuisance" 20:45:09 Muse article editing is awesome, it's been there since 2001 and I couldn't find anything better 20:45:18 gendl, Should I just go ahead and install emacs, slime, and my lisp interpreter seperately? 20:45:24 no. 20:45:33 oh, you can! C-c C-x C-v! 20:45:41 1. install your lisp compiler 20:45:50 2. download quicklisp.lisp 20:46:05 Petit_Dejeuner_: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 20:46:06 drewc: I'm not there yet, I want to finish the "backend" part properly (thinking in terms of API) before I get to add a User Interface with parsers, I'll get back to you :) 20:46:10 3. load quicklisp.lisp and follow its directions 20:46:26 4. once that's done, 20:46:35 (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 20:46:41 follow its directions. 20:46:44 H4ns, eh, my only linux box can't get the internet to work 20:46:50 [i assume you already have emacs] 20:46:52 dim: well, I am planning on making my cl-net site based on CL rather than elisp. Org vs Muse can be literally a different extension and work fine, so ... 20:46:58 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:01 gendl, I do, but it's trapped in lisp-in-a-box 20:47:14 what platform are you on? 20:47:14 Petit_Dejeuner_: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 20:47:15 dim: maybe it may be best if you waiting 'til I have finished a wee bit more? 20:47:21 waited* 20:47:27 gendl, windows 20:47:30 drewc: do you plan to support RSS and tags, and the ability to filter what articles end up in the CSS depending on the tags you added to it? 20:47:31 H4ns, thanks 20:47:43 what Lisp compiler are you trying? 20:48:13 http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/emacs-24.2-bin-i386.zip 20:48:15 on windows, just get the LispWorks personal edition, right? 20:48:16 gendl, lisp in a box had clozure, I think, but I laso have gnu clisp installed 20:48:33 Use CCL 1.9. 20:48:35 gendl, thanks, but I found it 20:48:36 may i suggest http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html for emacs on windows? 20:48:37 Both are good implementation. 20:48:56 that emacs has been very dependable for me on windows 20:49:09 if what you're doing is not going to blow the memory heap then by all means give LW personal a try. 20:49:19 dim no .. I plan to first support everything that o-blog does, and in fact make it transparent (and work in emacs via swank) ... so supported such things is not on my list simply because it has to be. 20:49:27 H4ns: thanks. 20:50:11 the colors on http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html hurt my eyes. 20:50:51 Petit_Dejeuner_: or Allegro Express Edition for Windows 20:50:53 dim: BUT! : "(defpackage :drewc.org/o-blog ...)" is on my list, so while I do not plan on it, it is a part of my plans :P 20:51:34 jsj [~johan@unaffiliated/jsj] has joined #lisp 20:51:53 I think I will have to either redo tapoueh.el or switch to a new backend system down the road, because generating the website is way too slow for me now as it is 20:51:54 Petit_Dejeuner_: with Slime you can install as many lisps as you want and have as many instances as you want of each of them going at the same time (within physical limits of course). 20:52:05 but my current problem is only finding a new theme 20:52:08 gendl, can i install slime with quicklisp? 20:52:31 For that matter, just 'finished' my new "YASEXML: Yet Another Symbolic Expression eXtensible Markup Language" which is going to be part of my :drewc.org/o-blog , so things are moving forward 20:52:34 to repeat: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 20:52:36 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:52:37 that's what quicklisp-slime-helper does, Petit_Dejeuner_ 20:53:06 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:10 dekuked [~dekuked@72.234.205.107] has joined #lisp 20:54:16 dim: that I cannot help you with at all ... my new 'theme' for all my sites and apps is "bootstrap.css default" 20:55:44 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 20:56:02 yeah and that's a perfectly sane position from you 20:56:33 (because I am not a graphic designer at all, and bootstrap works cross browser and, heh, twitter is twitter.) 20:56:49 really I'm just wondering about digging some more or realising now that I've been doing that too much already, and that this Emacs Muse Custom approach I've been enjoying is my biggest problem here 20:58:14 yeah, my whole "Use o-blog" thing is temporary at best, I happen to know a wee bit of CL, and 'porting' it over is really 're-writing' it in CL. 20:58:15 I did a basic (really, really basic) sample of a space invaders-like game in Common Lisp. The player can't die, but I think it has value for learning. If anyone wants to see the code and mail me for improvements, it's here: https://github.com/Denommus/space-invaders 20:58:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:27 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:59:46 oogh, runtime dependency on asdf 20:59:55 Denommus: what graphic libs did you use? 21:00:16 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 21:00:54 dim: lispbuilder-sdl 21:01:11 Denommus: (concatenate 'list (list object) scene-objects) is a long way to say (cons object scene-objects) 21:01:20 lispbuilder-sdl-gfx, to be more precise 21:01:31 H4ns: thanks 21:01:37 Denommus: you may want to use (map nil ...) instead of (mapcar ...) if you don't want to use the resulting list 21:02:22 Denommus: #'(lambda ...) is equivalent to (lambda ...) if you did not know. 21:04:09 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:04:52 Denommus: your usage of with-slots and with-accessors seems a bit excessive - i find it easier to read code that does not introduce names for things that are used only once, and explcit accessor calls would be clearer most of the time (imo) 21:05:12 -!- billstclair [wws@D231C273.3307D5FA.A73C2743.IP] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:05:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:42 Denommus: cond-fall-through fails my macro taste check 21:06:14 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-234-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:06:15 H4ns: cond-fall-through was just a experiment, I feel I'm going to throw it away anyway 21:06:26 Denommus: however, it looks very cool, these are just minor nits 21:07:37 Denommus: ah, and (setf foo (cons bar foo)) is better written as (push bar foo) 21:10:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:11:56 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:13:14 my favorite code is the collision method on bullet.lisp 21:13:21 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:14:07 that looks proper 21:14:08 :) 21:15:07 it could be considered a pure functional snippet :D 21:15:13 although (* foo foo) would be (expt foo 2) 21:16:09 H4ns: I thought about using (* foo foo) or (expt foo 2) for some time. I choose the former because I'm less sure on how expt works internally 21:16:22 Is there a way to delete contents of the slime-repl buffer? 21:16:25 but, yes, I could change that 21:16:29 or you just have to kill it and start a new one? 21:16:32 Denommus: why do you need to know it? 21:16:34 gendl: C-c M-o? 21:16:37 gendl: C-c M-o 21:16:46 o thanks 21:17:20 and does that end up in emacs' kill ring where it clogs memory? 21:17:40 or does it just vaporize the contents 21:17:42 gendl: no. 21:17:47 good. 21:18:06 gendl: latter. It also clears presentations, and, more annoying for me, *, **, etc. 21:18:29 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-234-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:00 H4ns: nothing, only paranoia because of some weird languages I encountered on my early days as a programmer 21:19:02 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:14 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 21:19:23 Denommus: i think i want to hear this story 21:19:41 ravster [~ravi@71-19-174-130.dedicated.allstream.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:49 Alright, emacs, lisp, quicklisp, and slime are all working, but I still can't get the library to work. (ql:quickload 'cl-liballegro) worked, but I can't run the test program and (require "cl-liballegro") fails 21:20:13 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0dc114.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:15 Could you elaborate on not being able to run the test program? 21:20:32 Bike: it's a brazilian programming language called HAL 21:20:55 Petit_Dejeuner_: you don't use quicklisp like this, check my project as an example: https://github.com/Denommus/space-invaders 21:20:59 Petit_Dejeuner_: try (al:init) 21:21:28 Denommus: petit's using quickload to load something in local-projects, it's fine 21:21:42 Bike, The first line of the program is "(require "cl-liballegro")" but it can't load find the file. 21:22:05 try commenting it out, you probably don't need to require if it's already loaded? 21:22:35 that's also a symptom of having very old software 21:22:36 Petit_Dejeuner_: ignore that (require) line 21:22:39 Bike: but he is expecting to simply put (require "cl-liballegro") and run with it. Isn't this wrong? 21:22:52 it's an anachronism 21:23:21 Petit_Dejeuner_: what software is it you want to run? 21:23:33 prxq, https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro 21:23:42 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-60-210.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:24:21 -!- dekuked [~dekuked@72.234.205.107] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 21:24:22 Petit_Dejeuner_: and in which file is that require statement? 21:24:40 prxq: it's in the readme 21:24:47 prxq, test.lisp 21:25:19 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:25 indeed. 21:25:34 Petit_Dejeuner_: have you tried (asdf:load-system :cl-liballegro)? 21:25:39 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 21:25:53 Denommus: he's already loaded it. 21:26:01 shouldn't need the require any more 21:26:04 comment it out and proceed. 21:26:08 Petit_Dejeuner_: just remove that line. It should work. 21:26:26 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:26:33 commenting out worked, but now I get "undefined function nil" when I try to run (main) 21:26:33 (but with that said, isn't asdf supposed to "hook into" the require system of most Lisps? ) 21:26:54 Petit_Dejeuner_: paste backtrace? 21:26:55 even knowing more or less what I'm doing, using CL's systems and packages is still a bit confusing to me 21:27:25 Petit_Dejeuner_: ideally, the (require ) should be benign and picked up by asdf which would see that the system is already loaded and do nothing. 21:27:26 Petit_Dejeuner_: what implementation are you using? 21:27:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:34 but apparently we're not there yet. 21:27:39 -!- ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-irnkgctvewrdomqn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:43 prxq, gnu clisp 21:27:45 Bike, http://pastie.org/6552293 21:27:59 gendl: I thought so, too. But (asdf:load-system :foo) works here, (require 'alexandria) or (require :alexandria) returns NIL (so I don't know if it worked) 21:28:18 Denommus: you can see if the alexandria package exists? 21:28:29 (require ) should return nil if the thing is already in memory 21:28:31 oh. Forget it. (require) returns nil when finds, error when it doesn't 21:28:41 Petit_Dejeuner_: it may be worth the effort to try sbcl 21:28:50 prxq: he's on Windows 21:28:57 gendl: so? 21:29:05 gendl: there is an implementation of SBCL on Windows 21:29:10 And I guess load-system could push into *modules* but that sounds weird to do 21:29:18 it works fine, as far as I tested it 21:29:19 Petit_Dejeuner_: looks like it cut off too soon 21:29:31 Denommus: hopefully we can get it to support portableallegroserve some day. 21:29:31 Denommus: that's great news 21:30:05 -!- TDT` [~user@173-17-121-48.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:30:18 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:30 require is just so underspecified 21:30:40 prxq: well, using CFFI is still somewhat of a pain on Windows, so not much of a difference for me 21:30:41 Only the unary require. 21:30:42 i never ever used require 21:30:48 well, except on allegro cl 21:30:50 diadic require is well specified. 21:31:10 -!- zickzackv [~faot@g226063244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31:14 Bike: there is so much on the standard that is. I wish a new standard emerged. Wasn't this being worked on? 21:31:37 at any given time somebody is working on something, seems like 21:31:38 The implementation dependant parts are important too. 21:31:48 "being worked on"  I love the passive voice aspect of that. 21:31:50 H4ns: I think I'd only use require if I made a script. For projects, I tend to use :depends-on on the asdf:defsystem 21:32:29 gendl: considering that I started to enter the community in January, I don't think I have much of an authority on what CL needs or what it doesn't ;) 21:32:34 i only used require once before i realized sb-cltl2 has an asdf definition 21:33:27 Denommus: I don't think anyone is in a huge rush to get to a new standard, quite yet. 21:33:46 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:42 gendl: as for now, CL is fine for me. It already does a lot more than lots of "modern" languages (*cof* Java *cof*). But I heard that there were some initiative towards a new standard, so that's why I'm asking 21:35:13 there are some people collecting some proposals, RFC type things 21:35:17 Denommus: there have been. None have gathered enough steam. 21:35:24 the CDR things, IIRC 21:35:28 Denommus: a "new standard" is not feasible. there is not enough money in common lisp to finance such an effort. 21:35:35 o ya, "CDR" 21:35:54 H4ns:  at this moment. 21:36:00 dude, that was 50 years ago, you don't need to cover together to make a standard.... 21:36:03 lol 21:36:04 gendl: right. 21:36:44 oh, the old problem of the egg and chicken. CL doesn't have enough people to contribute because it has an old standard. It has an old standard because there isn't enough people to contribute 21:37:03 Denommus: 21:37:05 i don't think the old standard is much of a letdown 21:37:15 Yea, CL having an old standard certainly isn't the issue... 21:37:17 Denommus: a standard is not so much a matter of "contribution" 21:37:18 you can get by just fine as it is 21:37:27 let's multiply! 21:37:28 lol 21:37:43 dekuked [~dekuked@72.234.205.107] has joined #lisp 21:38:28 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 21:38:36 I dunno, I won't be as arrogant as to tell you why CL has a weak community. I'm just a dude. But some people think CL is a dead language, and I think that the fact the standard is not being actively maintained is a proof for them 21:39:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:39:35 but yeah, I agree there are better ways of gathering a community, and this kind of people is the same kind of people who only think of Lisp as ")))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))" 21:39:38 Denommus: why bother with what people think. 21:39:54 Denommus: if it is fun and productive, screw them. 21:40:16 have a nice discussion guys, i'm going off-grid 21:40:24 gendl: enjoy 21:40:26 speaking of "productive" ;) 21:40:28 I got really confused with all the parentesis, too. Then I discovered C-M f, C-M b, C-M u and C-M d 21:40:36 Obviously, it'd be much better PR if there were no standard. 21:40:52 s/C-M /C-M-/ 21:41:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:41:06 Denommus: }}]};}}]}; 21:41:25 H4ns: precisely 21:42:12 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:42:26 ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-rbzbsazxoxfhgybq] has joined #lisp 21:42:40 the basic issue with cl's readability is that, on the first sight, there are no visual cues. no funny characters that have special meaning and that one can look up or ask about. it is just words and parentheses. the complaint about the parentheses is basically just the complaint about the lack of visual cues 21:42:47 pkhuong: yeah, people like Ruby, Python and Clojure capacity of changing fast because there is one dude to say what the language must look like. As for myself, seeing what is hapenning with Python, I simply can't agree 21:43:29 people who get excited about cutesy like "5.times { ..} " simply can't like lisp 21:43:40 but for every Python there is a Java, with years going by without lambda =P 21:43:55 Denommus: does python have a real lambda now? 21:44:16 yes, it's spelled "def" 21:44:23 H4ns: it has local functions. 21:44:28 I still need to find a way to easily make and ship a CL script that compares to python 21:44:29 foom: can you use def for anonymous functions now? 21:44:37 maybe the real diff is that python is already installed 21:44:39 prxq: oh, I was very excited with 5.times {...}. But in my defense, it was the first time I saw first-class functions, and I had no idea they existed 21:44:47 no, but that's just a little matter of syntax. 21:44:53 it can't possibly make something "real" or not. 21:45:13 Denommus: that's ok. It really is cute. But there is little of the sort in CL. 21:45:18 foom: I thought lambda was just a fancy term for anonymous function though. If it's not anonymous, it's not a lambda 21:45:36 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 21:45:43 dim: #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script, the target machine needs SBCL. But so would need Ruby if the script was written in Ruby 21:45:50 well, if sbcl is installed, you can just go shebang on it. 21:46:12 Denommus: what about parsing command line args and options? 21:46:26 dim: "there's a lib for that" 21:46:30 What I understand "real lambda" to mean is a local function (within another function), which can escape the dynamic scope of its containing function, and which can access lexical variables from its containing scope. 21:46:31 you need a third party lib so begins the bootstrapping issues, right? 21:46:33 dim: there is something similar to argv 21:46:34 *jasom* just makes a memory image if he wants an executable 21:46:35 Do I need some kind of initialization in a .sbclrc.lisp file to get it to load quicklisp on startup? 21:46:39 right. "command line option nuker" 21:46:43 foom that's a closure 21:46:56 Petit_Dejeuner_: yes, but quicklisp is supposed to add that itself 21:46:59 the special variable *posix-argv* 21:47:03 Petit_Dejeuner_: possibly (require :asdf) 21:47:07 prxq: then it's not already installed, not in the systems' sbcl package, not even a system's package and your script is not a single file anymore 21:47:13 it is a list with all the arguments you pass to the script 21:47:16 I hope I'm wrong saying that BTW 21:47:21 really, CL is usable as a scripting language 21:47:24 that's only my current understanding 21:47:30 dim: well, you have argv there already 21:47:37 foom: this is a closure, and Python has them 21:47:48 prxq: in a portable way or just for SBCL? 21:47:57 prxq: I think there is something similar, I just don't remember the name of the function 21:48:14 I think uiop is made to answer my questions here, but it's not in SBCL by default yet 21:48:17 dim: if you're shebanging to sbcl why do you care it's portable? 21:48:23 dim sb-ext:*posix-argv* 21:48:36 jasom: I'm not sold on that idea just yet 21:49:07 Hmm, I think I messed up quicklisp when I switched to sbcl, because now the package ql doesn't exist. 21:49:12 dim: dude, I'm a noob, and I discovered about the --script option with 5min of man sbcl, and *posix-argv* by googling "ARGV Common Lisp" 21:49:12 Anyway, do what all the other compiled languages do and build an actual native executable. Then you can even suid it if you need to :) 21:49:14 last CL apps I made depend on SBCL 1.1, and debian only has 1.0.40 or 1.0.55, so I needed to compile another one in /usr/local 21:49:27 -!- ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-rbzbsazxoxfhgybq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:28 Denommus: yeah. that's not solving my problem, I think 21:49:40 Petit_Dejeuner_: just (load "quicklisp/setup.lisp") then (ql:add-to-init-file) 21:49:44 dim: why? 21:49:51 dim: what do you need that requires 1.1? 21:50:05 lparallel doesn't compile on previous versions 21:50:34 so right for easier scripts lparallel won't be a requirement 21:50:36 btw I moved away from debian because of its insistence of keeping everything vintage. 21:50:45 dim: compile it on an environment with SBCL 1.1, then you'll have 0 (zero) problems 21:50:48 and I might be able to use the default SBCL version available in CentOS or debian 21:50:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:03 dim: I don't see the point in making the difference between a single file script that depends on a ton of libraries, and a muultiple-file script. 21:51:09 dim: what's wrong with save-lisp-and-die? 21:51:24 Denommus: and then I give a 45MB *binary* file to my new customer who didn't yet decide if he trusts me... mmm, sounds like a strange plan to me 21:51:31 then you don't even need sbcl installed 21:51:44 dim: would he notice? 21:51:52 if you solve his problem? 21:51:57 in the example I have in mind where I did send a python script, he would 21:52:01 dim: ~10MB with core compression. About the same if you gzip the download. 21:52:10 that said, I didn't need lparallel at all in that example 21:52:22 pkhuong: good to know, thanks 21:52:25 dim: what do you mean by "trust"? If he needs the code, handles him the code 21:52:27 *jasom* wouldn't run a script more than about 100 characters without trusting someome anyway. I'm not smart enough to spot cleverly hidden malicious code 21:52:31 to paraphrase stassats, get a different customer :-) 21:52:52 that's not a practical answer 21:53:12 I've got *plenty* of C++ binaries around here that are 40M or more. 21:53:21 fair enough but perhaps you have to stick with python for that particular customer. 21:53:28 Being 40MB really doesn't seem like a big problem in this day of 2TB drives. 21:53:35 what I want to hear is "here's how you solve your lib dependency bootstrap issue in a portable way" where portable means different OS targets and different CL targets (implementation/version) 21:53:38 40M is a little large for e-mail now 21:53:48 You use email to distribute binaries? 21:53:49 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:53:57 you can't even buy usb sticks with under 2 gig 21:54:02 dim: bundle the libraries with your source. 21:54:03 I still have about 100kBps upload here 21:54:03 ANYBODY uses email for that? 21:54:07 foom: not if they are 40M 21:54:11 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:20 pkhuong: bundle means it's not a single source file to use with --script anymore 21:54:24 dim: looks like you are hosed 21:54:26 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 21:54:36 dim: too many problems, too few solutions 21:54:44 prxq: unfortunately, looks like either I'm not asking the right questions or I won't have an answer, yes 21:54:46 cl-launch... 21:54:51 I'd recommend you to read the Pragmatic Programmer 21:55:02 dim: you can still --script it. But, like I said, I don't see the point in distinguishing between single-file scripts that depend on libraries and a multi-file script. 21:55:08 well what I did in my use case is that I used python 21:55:11 end of story 21:55:14 makes me sad, though 21:55:29 dim: you could always make a script based off of the quicklisp bootstrap that downloads quicklisp to a local directory, runs quicklisp, and then (ql:quickload "clon") and uses that to parse command line arguments 21:55:42 pkhuong: gist.github.net, attaching to a mail, things like that... but I guess I hear you 21:55:56 that's gist.github.com of course, sorry 21:56:08 sharing a single file script is easy given gist 21:56:16 or a pastebin site 21:56:31 Well, you can assume such people have quicklisp. 21:56:31 sharing a 40M thing via dropbox isn't revolutionary either 21:56:37 jasom: yes that's a more practical idea 21:56:48 dim: but it depends on libraries anyway. Add instructions for quicklisp instead of apt-get or whatever. 21:56:59 dim: really? I thought it was a joke; but it would let you put everything in one script 21:57:03 Sharing a gist is different from a standalone build for deployment 21:57:32 foom: yes, indeed, and it works pretty well with python 21:57:35 Hook in asdf to concatenate dependencies in a single file, with appropriate eval-when! 21:58:04 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:05 dim what does trust have to do with size of the executable? 100 KB executable can do as much damage as the 40MB one 21:58:07 dim: works pretty well for CL as well. (ql:quickload '(...)) in the first line. 21:58:18 or I just use sb-ext and check that what I need is provided in very old versions of it 21:58:21 Uh, I got everything to work, but I can't get the library to run. Is this an issue on my end or the libraries? http://pastie.org/private/4tkxugcpvkv3ku7xlncwg 21:58:35 how large is cl-clon anyway> 21:59:48 Petit_Dejeuner_: some dll that allegro-5.0.8-monolith-mt.dll depends on is missing or can't be found. 21:59:52 Petit_Dejeuner_: hard to say, because the error is rather unhelpful. It's not clear wether it justs didn't find the file or just didn't like it 22:00:14 Well, the file is there. 22:00:16 Petit_Dejeuner_: or maybe it can't even find the allegro dll itself. 22:00:18 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 Petit_Dejeuner_: if you know where the file is, you can use a full path to it where it is being loaded (at least for testing) 22:01:12 prxq, So I would go into the cl-liballegro files and change the address? 22:01:22 Petit_Dejeuner_: worth a shot 22:03:22 *prxq* thinks "can't do X" is a pretty crappy error message. 22:04:00 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:20 prxq: windows error codes are nasty. I've seen a lot of production software just report error 126. 22:05:12 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:05:13 Hmm, well this is the only code that refers to the .dll http://paste.lisp.org/display/136053 22:05:18 It looks fine to me though 22:06:17 Petit_Dejeuner_: sure. but we don't know wether it did find the file or had an error 126 22:06:41 s/did/didn't/ 22:06:44 -!- jsj [~johan@unaffiliated/jsj] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:12 what;s the command for loading a dll under sbcl? (the raw version?) 22:07:31 dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:08:15 load-shared-object. 22:08:49 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.234.194] has joined #lisp 22:09:02 Petit_Dejeuner_: what pkhuong says is worth a try. Does (load-shared-object "") work? 22:09:14 let me try 22:09:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.253.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:09:50 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:53 seems to work fine 22:10:16 that's great news, because it means that it's just a path issue. 22:10:24 -!- agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:40 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:12 prxq, So I just have to change the code I posted earlier to point to the right path? 22:11:20 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:12:36 Petit_Dejeuner_: seems like it. Check out http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dlibrary.html 22:12:43 ikki [~ikki@187.208.253.215] has joined #lisp 22:12:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:07 it seems after the name you can have a :search-path followed by a list of paths to search for that lib. 22:13:44 Just add "./" to search paths then? 22:13:48 Or will relatives not work? 22:14:01 no idea 22:14:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:50 Sorry Dave, I can't do that. 22:16:09 (EDAVE) 22:17:46 ENOBANANA 22:17:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:18 ENOBOOBS 22:18:26 awwwwwwwww 22:18:29 lol 22:18:51 wbooze: that one happened when my newborn tried to nurse from me 22:19:21 hmmmm 22:19:33 BC ? 22:19:36 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0dc114.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:19:53 british columbia? 22:20:01 breast cancer! 22:20:07 no, Y chromosome 22:21:01 wasn't it obvious? :-) 22:21:25 lol 22:21:27 2k US men die from breast cancer every year 22:21:45 and it's not even the number one cancer that kills women 22:21:59 really ? 22:22:01 nor the number 1 cause, so you fixation on titties is nice, but get rid of the pink 22:22:03 ahem 22:22:05 all that is very interesting. can you take it elsewhere? 22:22:16 #lispcafe 22:22:24 So Bayes says I was right to think it was obvious to think Y chromosome instead of breast cancer. Thanks for the confirmation 22:22:47 Right. 22:24:05 Petit_Dejeuner_: did it work? 22:24:07 prxq, hey, it works 22:24:14 great! 22:24:16 Just need to use (:or 22:24:22 time to send a pull request 22:25:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-89.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:26 cajetanus [~user@public-gprs611160.centertel.pl] has joined #lisp 22:29:05 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: !] 22:29:25 Fare: first of all run-program on windows with that gs command is still popping a cmd window with :output nil, and ghostscript failing to write the .png file with :output (make-broadcast-stream). It would be easy to replicate if you can find access to a Windows machine some day. 22:29:42 Secondly, I believe I can replicate the monofasl issue. 22:30:00 if you want to replicate it, you can do so easily with 22:30:17 git://github.com/genworks/gendl.git 22:30:21 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 22:30:33 put that in your local-projects, then 22:31:17 well, then let me know and I'll tell you. 22:31:28 The system is currently committed in a purposely broken state. 22:31:49 which forces the monofasl issue 22:33:38 gendl: is your command a string or an argv list? 22:33:40 ...I attempted to fix both of these issues but they both seem beyond my current maturity level as far as understanding asdf internal workings 22:33:50 is there a format trick for printing human readable byte units (TB, GB, MB, etc)? 22:33:50 string 22:34:06 I don't think SI prefixes are in format, no 22:34:07 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-109-66-59-155.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:34:12 dim: no 22:34:27 ~/my:print-with-si-units/ 22:35:22 gendl, is the failure only on windows? 22:35:34 for me, the monofasl issue is more interesting & important, but if you want to fix the windows shell command thing, I'm happy to help with that as well (as far as quick testing, when I'm at my desk). 22:35:45 the run-program "failure" is only on windows, yes. 22:35:52 the monofasl failure is everywhere. 22:36:06 i can describe what's happening. 22:36:28 if the main system you are building the monofasl of has no :components, then it works well. 22:36:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-14.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:04 and the system you operate on doesn't even end up in the 22:37:17 Thanks for the help everyone! 22:37:34 (asdf:component-depends-on 'asdf/bundle:monolithic-fasl-op ...) 22:37:40 BUT 22:37:47 if system has any file components, 22:37:51 is that all recent stuff ? 22:37:59 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.33] has joined #lisp 22:38:05 then said system ends up FIRST in the list of adsf:component-depends-on 22:38:28 which typically will cause immediate crash on loading the monofasl 22:38:51 because those file components typically refer to packages in all the depended-upon systems. 22:39:05 I think system should come _last_, not _first_. 22:39:20 i added a gendl/source/try.lisp 22:39:29 so you can do it with that git download 22:39:43 just put gendl/ in quicklisp/local-projects/ 22:39:51 and (ql:register-local-projects) 22:39:54 I have a potential patch for the windows thing, that I'll commit in 2.32.10, after it passes tests for me 22:40:03 and see that (ql:quickload :gendl) works fine. 22:40:03 ok, back with the gendl issue 22:40:09 how do I test it? 22:40:16 i'm telling u right now 22:40:22 oh, ok 22:40:46 then do (asdf:operate 'asdf/bundle:monolithic-fasl-op :gendl) 22:40:49 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:55 then start a fresh lisp and try to load that fasl. 22:41:44 then go back to your first lisp and do (asdf:component-depends-on 'asdf/bundle:monolithic-fasl-op :gendl) 22:41:49 pushed 2.32.10 22:41:52 and you'll see system :gendl comes first in the list. 22:41:53 (please test) 22:41:57 ok am doing. 22:42:16 -!- JohnnyL [~chatzilla@ool-457a8633.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 22:42:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:42:40 how is sb-ext:*posix-argv* spelled in ccl? 22:42:42 should I use :output nil 22:42:52 or :output (make-broadcast-stream) ? 22:42:59 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:43:37 (ccl::command-line-arguments) apparently 22:45:23 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:47:12 one of the senior developers at my work knows a lot about Java. Really, a lot. He also knows some C++ and C#. And today I understood why you can't be allienated on only one paradigm 22:47:37 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:43 I had a 20 min discussion with him only to be able to explain that Singletons can be used to emulate global variables in Java 22:48:10 Fare: same behavior on windows run-program. 22:48:11 and he still couldn't grasp the notion that Strategy is a poor-man's first-class function 22:48:22 maybe I need to be calling ghostscript differently? 22:48:25 and why is that all relevant to lisp ? 22:48:40 the conversation initiated when I showed him my space invaders 22:49:10 it was too strange for him to grasp that a language like CL can have OOP 22:49:19 my command line doesn't take input or output anything to standard output 22:49:25 ah 22:49:52 it just converts a pdf file to a png 22:49:55 i thought java people wouldn't be so alien to lisp..... 22:50:08 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:50:31 a temp pdf file to a temp png file, no reading/writing from any pipe or stream 22:50:52 I thought so, but not this much. I'm starting to think that the so famous "Design Patterns" are harmful, because they activelly makes you avoid searching for better solutions 22:51:53 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.80.234.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:25 Fare: i've seen one other issue, if this isn't too much to dump out at once: 22:52:38 uiop loads itself from Quicklisp if a system depends on it, 22:52:45 I really think that the languages will converge for something much more similar to CL than to Clojure, some kind of hybrid between functional and OO language 22:52:54 even if it's already there in memory thru asdf 22:52:56 ocaml, clearly. 22:53:22 i'm not sure if that is intended or avoidable but it spews a boat load of warnings 22:53:29 the problem about OO is that they focus too much the abstraction on nouns. Functional languages do the same, but with verbs 22:53:42 Denommus: maybe they will converge. In a million years or so. 22:53:48 ok making a simple shell script for sbcl only using sb-ext:*posix-argv* really is easy enough 22:53:53 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:59 dim: indeed! :-) 22:54:11 (let* ((args (rest sb-ext:*posix-argv*)) (wal1 (first args)) (wal2 (second args)) ... )) 22:54:39 prxq: I'm not talking about literally turning into an universal language, but about having an amount of features from each paradigm. How many modern languages don't have both objects and first-class functions? 22:54:57 Denommus: none. 22:55:01 guys, how do you put that bullet point in front of your name 22:55:12 to indicate yourself in third person 22:55:14 do you mean /me ? 22:55:17 then of course tli = int(filename[0:8], 16) in python becomes (tli (ldb (byte 32 64) position)) which I prefer somehow, even if I still wonder if I shouldn't split the string rather than play with numbers here 22:55:19 *Bike* demonstrates 22:55:19 gendl: /me blahblah 22:55:26 *gendl* stepping out... 22:55:31 pkhuong: I can name some, actually. Java and Clojure, both being examples of diametric opposite decisions 22:55:45 the C source is using sscanf(fname, "%08X%08X%08X", tli, &log, &seg) after all 22:56:05 but even Java is starting to converge on Java 8 :) 22:56:53 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:57:28 anyway... dim, how's the script going? Have you been convinced yet? 22:58:19 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:59:22 it's working, it's shorter than the python equivalent of course 22:59:34 it's hard coded for sbcl 22:59:49 clojure must have a hard time interfacing with Java without objects, and even anonymous inner classes really aren't that bad. The problem is one of style rather than feasibility, usually. 22:59:55 how easy it is to install sbcl on a bunch of OS is the next question 23:00:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.253.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:00:20 SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 23:00:27 oh and of course #! /usr/bin/env sbcl --script is spelled another way on windows, but I had the same problem with the python version anyway 23:01:38 pkhuong: anonymous inner classes can look nice after prepared, but they aren't closures, which is a damn shame 23:01:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:04 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:02:59 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-234-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:03:06 I think the only way to make the sbcl --script on-par with python would be to have sbcl installed by default, baring down-the-road obvious needs for libs that are standards in python distribution 23:04:00 but then the question is do you really want to make it a single file script when you begin to depend on external libs? maybe yes for some basic drakma (http client) etc usage that you can do in python 23:04:12 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:04:21 dim: even Python has some problems. If you use Python 2.7, #!/usr/bin/python won't work on Arch, because python is already on 3.0 here. But then there is always #!/usr/bin/python{2,3} 23:04:40 Denommus: will have to think some more, still an open question, but at least I got my hands dirty and I have something that works to allow me thinking some more, thanks for pushing me there :) 23:04:47 (not only you, btw) 23:05:03 oh don't remind me of python 2 vs 3 23:05:24 the reason why I'm now doing CL is that version shift, after all 23:05:35 welcome, then :D 23:05:38 to the question python 2 or python 3, my answer is Common Lisp 23:06:10 my answer used to be Ruby, until I started to learn CL, and learned about sbcl --script 23:06:18 hehe 23:06:21 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 ruby also seems to have mayorish version troubles 23:07:17 prxq: nah, 2.0 is perfectly compatible with 1.9. This kind of version trouble died a long time ago, now Ruby is pretty "stable" 23:07:19 and deployment troubles, etc 23:07:45 Rails, on the other side, breaks compatibility for yeach Y on X.Y 23:07:59 well between 1.8 and 1.9 the easiest way to deploy code written in ruby to production was using JRuby, in several references I got... 23:08:14 ikki [~ikki@187.208.253.215] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 another irritating thing about Ruby is that you MUST have rbenv or RVM on your system. Gem does not work nicely if installed through your package manager 23:08:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:09:01 dim: but most Rubyist migrated to 1.9 nowadays, and the same problem didn't happen on 2.0, so I guess they will avoid this kind of problem from now on 23:09:02 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 23:09:11 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 23:09:49 ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-sakdcbxhvyiegfax] has joined #lisp 23:09:51 Denommus: sorry missed your latest message (needed to cleanup the rcirc buffer for some strange reason) 23:10:15 dim: try ERC. The function erc-truncate-buffer works greatly 23:10:30 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:10:32 I wrote too many customisation for my rcirc usage, thanks :) 23:10:45 another irritating thing about Ruby is that you MUST have rbenv or RVM on your system. Gem does not work nicely if installed through your package manager 23:10:48 it's just that the buffer was turning all red 23:11:05 isn't that the same with common-lisp-controler and Quicklisp in debian? 23:11:41 dim: quicklisp would work fine were it to be installed through the package manager 23:11:48 debian practices some serious sabotage beyond bundling lisps from the fossil record 23:11:50 BrianRice` [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:18 dim: and if your package manager includes asdf and not quicklisp, then asdf still works fine even if you add quicklisp 23:12:33 they might just need some help towards deprecating common-lisp-controler in favor of Quicklisp 23:13:07 dim: well those two things solve different problems. common-lisp-controller is supposed to allow installing of lisp libraries through apt 23:13:18 quicklisp is still not debian compliant by default with the behavior of installing things in $HOME rather than system wide, but maybe it can be made to cope with debian rules 23:13:46 dim: quicklisp can be installed *anywhere*; it detects the path it is loaded from and uses that as its base 23:13:46 dim: I don't think you should install quicklisp through a package manager, also. But at least you don't need ANOTHER thing to use it 23:13:55 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:13:55 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 23:14:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:27 -!- ncw [ncw@conference/pycon/x-sakdcbxhvyiegfax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:31 debian always has this stress between developer environement and system maintenance, and CL seems to be very oriented towards developer environement 23:14:40 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:47 Fare: ql-dist::(clean (dist "quicklisp")) 23:15:53 now that I think about it, you could fairly trivially get quicklisp working as "the way" to install lisp packages in the system; I'm not convinced it's a good idea, but it could even allow the pm to manage the versions of what it installs by having a custom distribution 23:15:59 It is meant to happen automatically but I haven't done it right, yet. 23:16:46 -!- Petit_Dejeuner_ [~andrew@108-203-203-37.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 23:18:33 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:50 jasom: what do you mean? Using quicklisp only to install lisp packages? Because that's exactly what I do 23:19:14 Denommus: I mean a system package manager that wanted to manage all the lisp packages could do so with quicklisp. 23:19:24 Denommus: and not a whole lot of extra work 23:19:42 oh 23:19:53 hm... that's... interesting 23:20:00 kill off common-lisp controller 23:20:06 maybe suggest that for Guix? 23:21:24 *jasom* hadn't heard of guix so googled it. "Hmm that looks like nix" read's further "Oh 'based off of the Nix package manager'" 23:21:40 -!- dekuked [~dekuked@72.234.205.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:22:07 yes, it's nix, but it uses Guile. Therefore, it's superior 23:22:14 LOGIC 23:22:18 the ideal solution would work flawlessly on something boring like redhat or suse 23:22:36 Guile, isn't that the GNU language that will let you use any language you want as your scripting language? 23:22:48 Or So I've Been Told 23:22:51 i don't think it is a good idea to solve "the problem" for something totally exotic and bleeding edge 23:23:04 at least, not exclusively 23:23:22 taraz [~user@p5B29807F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:22 *jasom* hasn't used a rpm based distro since mandrake 7 point something 23:23:41 I've forgotten how those work honestly 23:23:43 Guile is a GNU Scheme extension language, and version 2 included a VM and a bytecode, and much like the JVM or the CIL you now can plug more than one parser/language on top of that VM 23:24:01 so they ship scheme, javascript and emacs-lisp by default, and lua too nowadays I think 23:24:09 jasom: nope. Scheme 23:24:52 ok, it's like the JVM, but with Scheme instead of Java 23:24:54 dim: sounds like they've gotten further along. Last time I looked at it, it was an embedable scheme with a project plan that included adding rainbows and unicorns and magic pixie dust for everyone 23:24:56 anyway, gn 23:25:01 zickzackv [~faot@g226063244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:25:13 there are some guys porting Emacs to Scheme (which includes running ELisp on the Scheme VM) 23:25:42 jasom: they wanted both to get better perfs and elisp support, and the VM is how they did it, or at least that's my understanding of it 23:25:52 so now there's a guilemacs underground project 23:25:54 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0ef8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:11 and so some people are thinking that porting the C code of Emacs to CL might be a bterr idea 23:26:16 -!- kmb [~kmb@rrcs-50-75-221-94.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kmb] 23:26:27 meanwhile we still have a *very* fragmented lisp offering 23:26:42 (schemes, CLs, elisp, others) 23:26:57 it's not equivalent to the various ports to CL and Scheme, though. ELisp would still be the main language, Guile would only enter where ELisp can't. Like it is with C nowadays 23:27:27 dim: I don't think having lots of lisps is bad, as much as I don't think that having lots of ALGOLs is bad 23:27:59 it's way too late here for me to think :) 23:28:32 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:30:23 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has joined #lisp 23:30:52 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:53 -!- cajetanus [~user@public-gprs611160.centertel.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:47 -!- SKC [~shimoco@109.66.59.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:34:15 agumonkey [~agu@17.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:24 I'm building sbcl right now. is there anything in --fancy that I really don't want? 23:37:16 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:23 dekuked [~dekuked@72.234.205.107] has joined #lisp 23:43:13 goose_ [~goose@a88-114-94-195.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:46:18 -!- goose_ [~goose@a88-114-94-195.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:24 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:55 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:50:05 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:56 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 23:51:31 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:48 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp