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Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 01:11:05 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:45 XexonixXexillion [82384734@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.56.71.52] has joined #lisp 01:14:36 -!- KingNato_ [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:21:50 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:23:01 What's the normal method of deploying a program written with sbcl on linux? 01:24:08 save lisp and die 01:24:17 XexonixXexillion: there is no one method. i run standalone command-type things with buildapp and run server-type things with screen (and often buildapp) 01:27:10 tsetumel [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:25 Xach: Did you make buildapp? 01:28:28 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:27 I did. 01:29:35 Xach made the heavens and the firmament. 01:29:39 -!- sellout- is 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[~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:04 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.178.59] has joined #lisp 05:31:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.178.59] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:23 -!- cades [~mac@59-124-92-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:37:50 hey guys for something like, (setf x '(1 2 (3 4 5))) 05:37:59 how can I remove the 4? 05:38:37 ahungry: http://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl 05:39:57 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-1-143.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:47 thanks H4ns 05:46:25 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.153.123.154] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:46:59 seafax [70@unaffiliated/seafax] has joined #lisp 05:54:05 ruben [~ruben@pool-71-108-81-94.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:16 -!- ruben is now known as Guest61550 05:54:47 -!- Guest61550 [~ruben@pool-71-108-81-94.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:51 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DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-212-130-141.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:15:03 k0001 [~k0001@host81.186-109-106.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:23 XexonixXexillion [~LudvikGal@130.56.95.67] has joined #lisp 08:16:45 Hi all. Is it possible (declaim (speed 3)) in LispWorks Personal Edition? 08:17:10 Seems that it is not. 08:17:40 If you say so 08:18:16 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:19:25 well, it's not possible in any implementation 08:19:28 (declaim (optimize (speed 3))), on the other hand 08:21:30 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:22:25 xificurC [~xificurC@195.212.29.172] has joined #lisp 08:23:14 quazimodo [~quazimodo@203.171.197.105] has joined #lisp 08:23:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:23:18 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:13 stassats`: why it is not possible? 08:25:50 It is possible, but LW PE ignores it, i think 08:26:18 asvil: because it is not a declaration specifier. 08:26:32 because it's wrong 08:27:15 stassats`: well, no and yes, if speed was a type that could work ... i suppose 08:27:38 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:27:43 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-212-130-141.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:28:01 asvil: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_d.htm#declaration_identifier for what is allowed... 08:28:20 I use declaim as top-level form, and sbcl applies it for all top-level definitions 08:28:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 08:28:34 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:28:38 oh, look, the nitpicking game 08:29:23 would be utterly confusing if SPEED was a type ... but hey :-) 08:30:39 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-001-147.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:58 asvil: Right, declaim is a top-level form, but that isn't the problem, the declaration specifier you supplied is not valid. 08:31:07 3 is a bad variable name 08:31:39 3 is level 08:32:12 (please, don't tell me that *read-base* can be 2 or 3 for it to be legal) 08:32:31 asvil: still not a declaration specifer. 08:32:55 oh, I am sorry for that 08:33:03 (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) 08:33:12 and i thought it was crooked! (Sorry...) 08:33:21 asvil: that is a declaration specifer that is legal yes, since the car of the spec is optimize 08:33:36 which is a valid declaration identifier. 08:33:55 CrazyEddy [~pentaeryt@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:34:34 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:12 i don't think the question is about legality 08:35:18 things can be legal, but wrong 08:35:18 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-212-130-141.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:35:38 My message was wrong, but sources contain right variant, and LW PE ignores it 08:35:41 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-212-130-141.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:35:48 asvil: so, what is the problem with (declaim (optimize (speed 3)))? 08:35:49 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:03 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-212-130-141.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:36:13 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.231] has joined #lisp 08:36:25 it is ignored 08:36:36 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest216 08:37:21 how do you tell that it ignores it? 08:37:33 (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) => nil always for CLISP 08:37:52 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:37:58 how do you tell? 08:38:06 sw2wolf: declaim returns a implementation defined value. 08:38:24 it should be impl. relative 08:38:38 what does that mean? 08:39:02 (declaim ...) can return whatever 08:39:02 sw2wolf: that's not relevant 08:39:04 whenever. 08:39:28 it would be full and valid to make declaim return a random fixnum 08:39:31 stassats`: output buffer contains message about compilation settings, and there are ;;; Safety = 3, Speed = 1, Space = 1, Float = 1.... 08:39:38 then optimize or not ? 08:39:46 stassats`: also, test code runs slower than in sbcl 08:39:59 asvil: well, yes, and? 08:40:05 asvil: can you be more specific? what do you expect to happen and what happens instead? 08:40:16 -!- skbierm_ [~sascha@p4FEA00CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:41:16 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.209] has joined #lisp 08:41:38 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:42:33 I want to compare lw and sbcl compilators, and test code with optimizations, "static" types runs 0.8s on sbcl and 50s on lw, and I do not know lw pe restrictions, and ask about they there 08:42:39 asvil: could the optimization settings be printed before the file is compiled? 08:42:42 could lispworks be slower than sbcl? 08:42:58 comparing the produced code by (disassemble ...) ? 08:43:39 s/there/here 08:44:04 sw2wolf: too much code:) 08:44:14 asvil: comparing output from different cl implementations is hard, almost impossible really. 08:44:20 -!- CrazyEddy [~pentaeryt@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:44:32 asvil: try a small function first 08:44:54 just see optimizing effect 08:45:12 asvil: paste the code 08:45:25 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 08:45:45 sbcl is very good at removing the code you're testing from benchmarks 08:47:18 asvil: try optimize: (defun fac (n) (reduce #'* (loop for i from 1 to n collect i))) 08:47:37 wait, code is good, sbcl is good, clozure is good, lw is good too, but main question is "does lw pe ignore (declaim (optimize (speed....?":) 08:48:26 asvil: it might, if it wants to. 08:49:19 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 08:49:45 it does not ignore it 08:51:04 ck__ [~ck@dslb-088-069-122-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:18 asvil: are you sure that the code is good? i find it hard to believe that lispworks is 50 times slower than sbcl 08:51:50 i donot believe it too 08:53:37 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 08:54:10 ehu [~ehu@31.136.198.37] has joined #lisp 08:55:10 pegu [~user@cF469BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:40 I probably will paste it later, thanks for answers 08:58:52 CrazyEddy [~enmuffle@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:00:41 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host81.186-109-106.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:04:36 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:02 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:11 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:50 -!- CrazyEddy [~enmuffle@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:12:33 -!- XexonixXexillion [~LudvikGal@130.56.95.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:22 peterhil` [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 09:13:39 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@118.112.70.76] has left #lisp 09:19:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 09:19:54 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:23:04 -!- linse 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[~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:02:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:04:28 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:04:56 SKC [~shimoco@79.176.126.211] has joined #lisp 10:04:59 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.136.198.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:08:20 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:09:59 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:10:52 Maybe you're just not compiling on LW. 10:15:22 pkhuong: I pressed menu File/'Compile and load' for each buffer 10:16:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-212-130-141.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:17:04 jarmond [~user@host-137-205-183-065.cov.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:19:23 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 10:20:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~atheize@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit 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plan9t [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:13:06 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 13:13:54 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 13:14:29 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:17:47 bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 hi I am learning CL from PCL, I am training myself on some simple macros, could anyone give some feedback if this makes any sense? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136010 13:19:55 xificurC: what's the progn good for? 13:20:39 xificurC: you're collecting the pushset into a list that you splice into the progn, which has the effect of returning only the last of the pushset results. 13:21:48 H4ns: wouldnt that be the expected result of a function (or macro) that can push in multiple values? 13:22:01 xificurC: what makes you think so? 13:22:29 xificurC: i don't remember similar behavior from cl operators. 13:22:29 H4ns: i dont know, it just seems reasonable to me, but I just started 13:22:48 H4ns: what would make sense than, nil? 13:22:59 hm ... 13:23:18 xificurC: maybe the-set? 13:23:23 but then, it's a macro 13:23:40 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:23:51 H4ns: isnt that the result of the last push? 13:24:05 don't use &BODY unless you mean a function body or similar. 13:24:17 xificurC: hm, now that you say it. it appears that i'm confused. 13:24:26 H4ns: :D 13:24:32 plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has joined #lisp 13:24:39 zorkmoid: so it should be &rest? 13:24:56 of course, it would make sense to do assignment only once instead of n times 13:25:03 xificurC: yes 13:25:30 think of hashtables, doing it each time is costly 13:25:48 stassats`: how can you achieve that 13:26:02 zorkmoid: thanks 13:26:31 it took me 15 minutes to write the last macro, shows my macro skills :D 13:26:40 xificurC: idiomatically speaking, i wouldn't ever call a variable "value", object maybe. ... value means well something else. 13:27:04 xificurC: do something like (setf place (adjoin-values values place)) 13:28:05 xificurC: also, i find it nice to keep symetry between variables that you loop over, so like you have VALUES in there, but you use N as a variable name in the loop, I'd use V or something 13:28:37 xificurC: that appears to be straightforward, what do you find hard about it? 13:28:47 rtoym: ping 13:29:39 and your pushset is bad 13:30:25 stassats`: even that is bad? oh my 13:30:37 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.170.123] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:30:38 xificurC: welcome to lisp, the most opinionated language :-) 13:31:00 stassats`: i dont see how do you push several values in the set all by one 13:31:00 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:31:10 since adjoin only seems to be able to add one 13:31:40 xificurC: compare (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) (pushset 3 (cdr (print list)))) and (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) (pushnew 3 (cdr (print list)))) 13:33:40 you write your own adjoin, naturally 13:34:12 stassats`: so you're saying I should store the-set in a variable because of side-effects, right? 13:34:39 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:43 or use adjoin several times 13:34:50 xificurC: so, do you see the problem with pushset? 13:35:22 stassats`: theres two prints instead of one in your example 13:35:48 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:49 stassats`: and even though I dont see yet why I understand it wouldn't happen if i stored the-set in a gensymed var right? 13:36:20 ok i see why it prints twice now 13:36:22 -!- aajmakin [aajmakin@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:36:50 right 13:37:32 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:37:40 stassats`: what I still dont see is how to write the second macro in a way that would push all the values in in any other way than doing it one by one 13:37:45 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:37:56 you'd have to use get-setf-expansion 13:38:02 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:04 clhs get-setf-expansion 13:38:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm 13:38:39 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:12 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 thanks for the tips guys 13:39:43 xificurC: you join all the values and only then set 13:39:50 i'm not really seeing the source of your confusion, so i don't know how to explain it better 13:40:27 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:47 stassats: then its something i'll have to figure out on my own ;) thanks for the help 13:40:50 and for twice evaluation, try (get-setf-expansion '(cdr (print list))) and see the result 13:40:53 it gives you all the need to evaluate it only once 13:42:53 basically you put the first two values into a let, bind the new value to the third value, do modifications with the foruth, and retrieve the current value with the last value 13:43:09 I'm watching the redshank video: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ and one navigation thing in that video is is down-list. When I do "M-x down-list" it does the right thing and tells me it's bound to , but when I try C-M-down my form disappears and I can an 'Unbalanced parens' error message. 13:43:54 Maybe I don't know what it means to have the "C-M-down" between "<" ">". ?? 13:44:10 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:29 are you sure you're not doing M-down? 13:46:00 try C-h k C-M-down 13:46:02 C-M might not work in some terminals 13:46:29 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmsovsrkbmitgrfm] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 your keyboard may be borked and not support this 13:46:35 Hmmm If I do 'C-c C-M-down' it tells me 'C-c ESC down' isn't bound. 13:46:36 mine, for example, can't do C-M-up, but it just doesn't send anything 13:47:00 That indicates that I'm only getting the M, not both the M & C, right? 13:47:14 M- is bound to ESC ine macs 13:47:39 why do you do C-c before? 13:47:40 Yep but it would say C-ESC then if I had gotten both together, right? 13:48:14 well, arrow keys suck anyhow 13:48:16 use C-M-d and C-M-u instead 13:48:20 I did the C-c before because I felt there was no chance that C-c C-M-down was bound to something and then I'd be able to see what key sequence Emacs thought I pressed. 13:48:41 C-M-d works 13:48:50 patrickwonders: or you could've used C-h k 13:48:50 Thank you. 13:48:56 [14:46] try C-h k C-M-down 13:49:15 does that work? 13:49:23 well, i got it, but C-h k is a more reliable way 13:49:30 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:33 ESC (translated from ESC M-O B) runs the command paredit-splice-sexp-kil\ 13:49:34 ling-forward 13:49:39 That explains it... 13:49:43 hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:53 well, not all key-combinations work on keyboards 13:50:01 patrickwonders: are you using caps as a control? 13:50:06 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:50:08 Thank you. I definitely need to improve my Emacs... 13:50:22 I'm using 'option' as meta and 'control' as control. 13:50:51 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:50:52 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:50:59 when i use caps lock as control, C-M-x doesn't work, which is mighty frustrating 13:51:03 stupid logitech 13:51:22 stassats: thanks for the help.... 13:51:36 caps-lock-M-up-arrow doesn't work either 13:51:42 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fywowlngpavynbdl] has joined #lisp 13:51:43 try seeing in xev what's going on 13:52:13 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.252.163.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:52:42 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:53:03 Will do sometime thanks.... 13:53:17 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:53:43 and Caps-lock-M-x works on the laptop, which is really confusing 13:54:46 i sometimes wonder, "why the hell it doesn't work? oh, it's using the old definition, C-M-x didn't change it" 13:54:47 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.18] has joined #lisp 13:54:51 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.18] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:54:52 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:23 bloody hell, freenode is really slow for me 13:56:07 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.18] has joined #lisp 13:57:28 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:39 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:57:39 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 14:00:13 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 14:00:35 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 14:00:51 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:04 -!- 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:03:54 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:04:38 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:09 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 15:07:39 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:19 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:12:14 cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-113-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:12:23 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 15:13:37 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-66-187.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:17:01 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:17:02 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 15:17:42 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:52 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:17:52 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:18:31 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 15:19:46 pokes [~pp@pokes.xxx] has joined #lisp 15:20:38 thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.170.123] has joined #lisp 15:22:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:23:00 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:24:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:25:54 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-96-217.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:26:36 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:29:49 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@5357918A.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:29:49 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@5357918A.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:49 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 15:30:00 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-tlxwoxkcjyfukdsx] has joined #lisp 15:31:46 what is the right way to have closer-mop not clobber the slime-cl-indent for defmethod? 15:31:53 or am I just using too old a slime? 15:31:54 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:32:36 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:33:23 nope 15:34:01 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:36:12 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36:29 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:36:59 what is the recipe to tell slime that after it has seen a defmacro defmethod, it should nonetheless keep indenting defmethod as per lisp-indent-defmethod ? 15:37:29 -!- banjiewe- is now known as banjiewen 15:37:33 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 And while we are on the topic, is there a way to tell slime about how I want something indented? Why does it insist on indenting MATCH how it wants to, as opposed to how I am telling it to via its lambda list? 15:39:57 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-14.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:41 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 15:41:46 *madnificent* would like to know how to make custom indentation rules for slime too. 15:42:20 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:42:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 it uses some bizarre rules i couldn't never figure out 15:43:26 double negation \o/ problem solved , yay! 15:43:32 happy [~happy@14.99.176.242] has joined #lisp 15:43:41 -!- happy [~happy@14.99.176.242] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:00 isn't it more like "no! no! i don't want to think about it again! go away!" ? 15:44:03 :D 15:45:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:46:20 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:46:36 colincwilliams [~ccw@136.159.160.244] has joined #lisp 15:46:38 Double negation isn't actually wrong; it expresses something different from positive. It's positive and/or neutral. 15:46:48 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:56 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:46:56 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:46:59 The only reason it sounds awkward in English is because everyone is taught to avoid it for no reason. 15:47:01 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:47:40 Many other languages use it as a more elegant way of saying what you mean 15:47:58 -!- hkBst_ is now known as hkBst 15:48:01 jrajav, people were taught with reason, namely that a person has to put in less effort canonicalizing the meaning of the sentence 15:48:22 sigh, can't say anything in #lisp without somebody finding something irrelevant to pick nit 15:48:37 stassats: no 15:48:41 :)))) 15:48:54 H4ns: ITYM "No." 15:48:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:49:09 barbarian! 15:49:39 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:51:02 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-tlxwoxkcjyfukdsx] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:20 jrajav___ [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 15:52:18 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 15:53:01 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:53:07 Trystam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 15:53:12 lduros` [~user@2607:f470:24:3:8d43:1999:e545:3af0] has joined #lisp 15:53:38 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:50 -!- jrajav___ is now known as jrajav 15:53:50 -!- eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:53:51 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:05 in russian, double negation is insisting on the negation, not making it go away. 15:54:07 fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:54:12 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:16 -!- prip_ [~foo@host13-123-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:16 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:35 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 15:54:35 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:54:39 prip_ [~foo@host13-123-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:54:46 I guess English follow De Morgan's law? 15:54:48 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:48 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:48 -!- basho___ [~petrosil@norma.uberspace.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:54:56 basho___ [~petrosil@norma.uberspace.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 rpg- [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 -!- colincwilliams [~ccw@136.159.160.244] has left #lisp 15:57:06 adelgado: In English it depends on the context :D Double negatives as intensifiers are common in a number of dialects, and was standard pre-modern English. 15:57:19 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:29 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 15:57:31 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57:43 stassats: i was joking. fun fact: in Afrikaans, they use the negation twice in a sentence and it doesn't invert its meaning. 15:57:58 *stassats* wishes he didn't make that editing error 15:58:44 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.146] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 is there a way to reload/force recompile an asdf package that is already loaded 16:00:17 :force t 16:00:44 :force t is only for the package at hand 16:00:47 that an argument to load-system 16:00:55 for recursing into dependencies, :force :all 16:01:00 (at least on asdf 3) 16:01:04 it's for systems, though, some software packages have several systems 16:01:13 (asdf:load-system :foo :force :all) 16:01:24 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:26 thanks 16:01:27 that's usually too much 16:01:47 i sorta remembered such a keyword for the old compile-op but never used with with load-system 16:01:47 is there a way, recompile anything in the sub-tree of the said system? 16:02:10 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 16:02:13 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:02:18 so, say, mcclim would recompile everything inside mcclim/ directory 16:02:38 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:02:43 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 16:02:44 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:03:17 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 16:03:18 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:03:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:03:42 or at least defined in the same .asd file, would work for mcclim too 16:03:46 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 16:03:56 (asdf:load-system :foo :force '(:this-system :and-that-one)) 16:04:07 well, won't work for mcclim 16:04:10 only work on recent enough asdf 2 or 3. 16:04:14 it has like 25 systems depending on each other 16:04:26 it's a degenerate case, though 16:04:29 and i don't use mcclim 16:04:40 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:41 "we accept patches" 16:04:43 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:05:05 s/25/16/ 16:05:39 or you can collect your system names in a variable and pass it to :force 16:06:14 that said, asdf3 is much better at tracking dependencies, so forcing shouldn't be needed as much as it used to 16:07:13 If I remember mcclim right, it does some thinking to guess which of its systems to load -- which graphics backend to use. 16:08:00 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-93-176.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:08:34 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:08:41 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:09:35 mcclim.asd was a pile of asdf1 fail. Reminded me why I wrote asdf2. 16:10:07 was? 16:10:36 rpg committed a cleanup I did. Now it only has asdf2 fail, which is much less. 16:10:54 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:28 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:12:05 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.170.123] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:12:39 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:50 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 16:13:19 are the dependencies transitive? 16:14:02 i'm not a fan of three-line long :depends-on 16:14:10 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-231-3.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:14:50 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:15:05 frankly, not a fan of :depends-on at all, but if it's used, why not exploit transitivity? 16:15:33 having transitivity encapsulates better anyway 16:16:05 one argument against is that something in the middle may lose its dependency on something else, and if you depend on that something-in-the-middle, you will lose it too 16:16:33 but i find it weak, since complex dependencies can go haywire at any second anyway 16:16:58 *jasom* declares dependencies on any systems directly used 16:17:02 well of course, if A directly depends on C, then you should add C. If A only depends on C because A depends on B and B depends on C, then A should not need to directly require C. 16:17:17 jasom: that's not about systems, it's about components 16:17:38 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 16:18:08 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:18:14 oh, :depends-on 16:18:26 it's :depends-on in both cases 16:18:57 I still think it's a good idea to explicitly state all direct dependencies, and no others 16:19:05 indirect dependencies can change unexpectedly 16:19:11 mcclim has (:file "text-selection" :depends-on ("decls" "protocol-classes" "Lisp-Dep" "X11-colors" "medium" "output" "transforms" "sheets" "stream-output" "ports" "recording" "regions" "events")) 16:19:17 bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:19:26 :))) 16:19:36 stassats: this is a stylistic issue that people seem to vary on.... I tend to make dependencies explicit when the transitivity reasoning is obscure. e.g., X gets a macro from Y which depends on Z, and gets a completely unrelated variable from Z. I think in that case it's a good idea to make the dependency on Z explicit. 16:19:36 jasom: Yeah, but it can be hard to make sure you actually have the direct dependencies  SBCL+XCVB is good at that, though. 16:19:48 i wouldn't want to maintain such a dependency list 16:20:14 i would have no idea which is the correct one, and which can be left out 16:20:25 sellout-: I agree; in general it is nice to be able to automatically generate dependency lists; C compilers have had options to do that for years 16:20:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:20:40 stassats: Yes, but in my case, if you stop using the macro from Y you might kill the dependency, and then your system would break.... 16:20:54 I think another problem is that people over-depend. 16:20:59 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:03 though I suppose, in C you must manually list your dependencies in the form of #include or the compile fails, and people do over #include 16:21:05 :over-depends-on 16:21:17 A lot of people add dependencies just on called functions, which isn't necessary. 16:21:54 (called at run-time, I mean, not load time) 16:22:01 rpg-: but an implementation may do a better job at, say, finding type mismatches 16:22:31 although, sbcl may apply that for forward calls too, need to check 16:23:52 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:23:53 stassats: I have only room for one no-forward-reference language in my life, and LaTeX has filled that slot! ;-) 16:23:54 *jasom* hasn't tried mcclim since asdf2 came out; maybe it will work now 16:24:10 :D 16:24:18 jasom: Some of it will. Some of it won't. I'm pretty confident of that. 16:24:19 jasom: it didn't change a bit since then 16:24:22 jasom, (ql:quickload :climacs) ; best loading sequence 16:24:23 except for the .asd file 16:24:25 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:25:08 what .asd file? 16:25:15 rpg-: so, to get the best diagnostics, one needs to load things twice 16:25:15 Qworkescence: debugger invoked on a ASDF/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FAILED-ERROR in thread 16:25:25 :(((( 16:25:35 jasom: using asdf 2.27-2.31 ? 16:25:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:51 Fare: how do I check version? 16:26:02 2.31.2 16:26:12 jasom: mcclim has warnings. call (asdf:disable-deferred-warnings-check) on asdf 2.32 16:26:12 Fare: asdf/lisp-build wasn't present in 2.26 16:26:28 or on 2.31 and earlier, (setf asdf::*warnings-file-type* nil) 16:26:51 wait mcclim has warnings? Why would I *want* to build it? 16:27:04 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:05 oh, there's 32 already 16:27:06 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 16:27:16 Symbol "DISABLE-DEFERRED-WARNINGS-CHECK" not found in the ASDF/INTERFACE package. 16:27:18 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-thyjqsgyrbagrfkr] has joined #lisp 16:27:22 oh 2.32 16:27:27 durn 16:27:50 (defparameter asdf::*warnings-file-type* nil) is backward compatible all the way to old asdf's where it's a NOP 16:27:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:27:56 jasom: warnings or not, why would you want to build mcclim? 16:28:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:50 stassats: so I can point and laugh and feel superior with my GUI that is a rickety bridge to tcl/tk 16:28:59 haha 16:29:38 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 but you knw climacs did sound interesting, I would be happy to avoid elisp 16:30:00 it's unusable 16:30:13 climacs seemed to spin off into theoretical-land and never emerged 16:30:16 *Qworkescence* would like to try to help develop CLIMACS, even if it's ultimately a useless effort. But first, McCLIM needs to work on OS X. 16:30:28 they were investigating partial parsing last I checked 16:30:34 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:30:50 for AMAZING syntax highlighting 16:30:58 of sexps? hehe 16:31:02 -!- plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:31:04 anything 16:31:13 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 16:31:15 yes because inconsistant syntax highlighting is my biggest beef with emacs 16:31:22 well, it is slow. 16:31:58 but it's undoubtedly more fun to work on than polishing an editor 16:32:02 i don't care for syntax highlighting, but for correct arglist display and indentation 16:32:49 I'd rather have an extensible common lisp version of slickedit than emacs if a new editor were to be proposed. 16:32:52 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-thyjqsgyrbagrfkr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:33:00 Yuuhi [benni@p5DC6367C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 *stassats* is planning on writing a new editor 16:33:33 i miss zwei ... 16:33:43 dealing with the REPL at the moment 16:33:49 zorkmoid, the genera emulator is that a way 16:33:51 stassats: :-) 16:34:02 Fare: no, it isn't. 16:34:08 VLM is buggy like .. mad. 16:34:42 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:46 tried loading a vlod yesterday first time in ages, and it barfs hard when setting the time 16:34:56 my biggest beef with emacs and CL editing is the mishmash of buffers and windows. I still haven't tweaked emacs well enough to not pop up random shit all the time 16:35:05 writing a REPL turns out out be not that easy, beyond the simple-minded (with-output-to-string (...) (eval ...)) 16:35:48 Qworkescence: I stopped bothering a while ago, and just live with the annoyance. But yes, you are right. 16:35:59 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:36:06 good, build your hate towards slime and emacs! 16:36:21 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:23 stassats: a REPL with editing and stuff? 16:36:23 I remember seing a usable repl with +, ++, +++ etc. some time ago on planet.lisp.org (still in little number of lines of code). 16:36:37 *jasom* is a diehard vim user; emacs is just my lisp IDE 16:36:37 antoszka, pjb's? 16:36:59 Qworkescence: Possibly :). Don't remember the author. 16:37:10 though evil has me using emacs more and more 16:37:21 ftr, I find the buffer issues a mild and minor annoyance. Nothing that gives me fits of rage 16:37:22 prxq: well, there's that video a shoot a while ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2zyRQlLLSU 16:37:23 *antoszka* wants to learn evil 16:37:32 it's a bit improved since then, but still not usable 16:37:34 zorkmoid: just enable the time service in your inetd 16:37:48 Fare: that will work around stuff? 16:37:59 Fare: cause entering a date doesn't work 16:38:01 not around some X server incompatibility 16:38:11 you also need an nfs server, and some more things 16:38:20 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:38:25 stassats, i would like to see a repl that is smarter about huge output 16:38:26 NFS wasn't needed last time i checked, only for browsing docs 16:38:29 zorkmoid: if the time problem is what makes you say "buggy like .. mad", you have not encountered the real issues. 16:38:38 Qworkescence: yes, that's something i want to 16:38:43 stassats, that will break world saving if you don't have a patch, but genera will run in a Xvnc 16:38:43 H4ns: oh, i have, i've hacked on the darn thing :-) 16:39:40 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:40:28 might try fiddling with vlm again .. 16:40:39 for what it's worth, climacs and its partial parsing was definitely not just theoretical. It worked pretty neatly for cl syntax 16:40:44 just wrote a hacky version of a vlod dumper instead, was easier on the brain 16:42:13 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:43 (there were some other neat modes, like the prolog mode that automatically detected user-defined operators and got all the highlighting right. Maybe "theoretical" in the sense that it didn't get used much, but it did actually work) 16:42:44 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:42:48 zorkmoid, I have a howto and/or a tarball with everything 16:42:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:43:28 that bit of climacs is worth stealing/getting ideas from 16:43:29 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:49 unless it's GPL, of course 16:44:48 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:25 oh noes, it almost is, LGPL 16:46:16 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@92.40.254.79.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:47:07 mutley89 [~mutley89@92.40.254.79.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:48:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-236.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:48:58 n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:49:15 reminds me I ought to go on a hunt for jcma and offer him something to publish the symbolics ip 16:49:30 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 16:49:36 offer him a pony 16:50:09 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 16:50:30 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:30 anything left to offer? 16:52:36 a unicorn 16:53:34 i put the idea on the table that i'd offer cash money for macsyma IP, but of all of the people I've contacted, I hadn't received a single response 16:53:42 I mean, save for the novelty of it, does the symbolics IP have anything left to contribute -- what does it do that modern CLs don't, or have outright discarded. 16:54:49 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:37 it would be for the beauty of it. i don't think there is much value in there. genera is cluttered with history and full of decisions made in response to markets that are long gone and will not rise again. 16:55:53 whartung, not much, not much. 16:56:10 but still - a symbol (ick) 16:56:42 macsyma has lots of paydirt 16:56:47 is jcma the owner nowadays? I've lost track of the details of that saga. 16:56:50 it is vastly better than Maxima 16:59:03 (though, while it's more capable than Maxima, I expect the code is just as, if not more, ugly.) 16:59:32 last I know, jcma got the symbolics ip assets from the estate of andrew topping in exchange for cancelling a debt that topping owed him for past services. 16:59:41 whereas axiom is quite nice. no idea why it's not more popular. 16:59:53 then jcma said he would start a foundation so that fee-paying members could use the IP. 17:00:03 but has been sitting on it for years, and won't reply to email. 17:00:34 mal_, yes, axiom is nice, if you like 3 disparate forks, little documentation, an unclear language, and you have a firm understanding of mathematics, and you don't mind the fact that sometimes compiling some versions will leak memory 17:00:49 And if you don't mind poor support for graphics, etc 17:00:55 lol 17:01:42 ok, I'm just a fan of literate programming. 17:01:56 mal_, yes, maybe 1% of the system actually has literate documentation 17:01:59 -!- Upasna is now known as sweet_kid 17:02:05 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:02:15 -!- oticat` [~oticat@114-36-232-231.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:02:15 and that's the fork that no one actually uses, because Tim Daly likes having ultimate control over it 17:03:22 And there are so few people in the world who are competent enough to document the rest of the system, because you need a deep understanding of the arcane system, as well as an understanding of research level computer algebra 17:03:46 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:03:52 I once had to port pari to an IBM mainframe. I think the general lesson is never to let mathematicians develop programs :) 17:04:04 Qworkescence: so it's like every implementation of every language ever, so what! ;p 17:04:19 mal_, :))) 17:04:36 oticat` [~oticat@114-36-229-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 optikalmouse, "so what" as in "what are the consequences of the aforementioned", or what? 17:04:44 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 The system that has the most developmental inertia right now is SAGE, as ugly and unscalable and unportable as it is. 17:05:18 Qworkescence: Here is an old REPL: http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/lisp/common-lisp/repl.lisp 17:06:27 daniel [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 -!- daniel is now known as Guest81621 17:07:05 Qworkescence: the one you want: http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/interactive/interactive.lisp#line113 17:07:18 antoszka: ^^^ 17:07:57 ogamita: thx 17:08:30 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:08:52 Writing a REPL smart about big output is not too hard. You could do it in pure CL or with gray streams. 17:09:20 aajmakin [aajmakin@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has joined #lisp 17:09:53 I don't think it's easy, especially if you end up wanting to actual inspect it and whatever. And making it smart about the definition of "too big", what to elide in "too big" output, etc. 17:10:33 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 17:10:52 perfect use of CLIM presentations, eh guys? 17:10:59 Ok. I mean the algorithm is quite simple. Now adding complexities, indeed. 17:11:11 "unwritten code has no bugs and executes at the speed of mouth" 17:11:20 stassats`, good quote 17:11:32 stassats`: exactly :-) 17:12:43 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 17:12:52 -!- whitedawg1 [~whitedawg@122.172.181.199] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:06 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:23 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:13:34 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 17:13:57 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:14:26 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:14:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:15:29 -!- quasisan1 is now known as quasisane 17:16:13 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:18 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:22 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21:18 -!- varjagg [~eugene@62.97.226.122] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21:55 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 17:22:06 anyone know who to contact for a security issue in weblocks? 17:22:39 hack a web-site it uses and get onto national news 17:22:45 the usual weblocks forum? 17:25:36 Fare: all the ones I know are public; but I guess if that's the best... 17:28:45 If SLDB shows me a clojure, is there some way to set a breakpoint on it? 17:29:15 a cloJure? 17:29:23 Ie. can I refer to the current inspector object in some way? 17:29:33 stassats`: sorry, a closure. typo ;) 17:30:04 *stassats`* looks concerned: have you been checking out clojure as of lately? 17:30:16 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-198-127-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 flip214: you can do C-RET 17:30:23 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:25 I'd need something like (first (swank:current-inspector-object)) 17:30:33 M-RET 17:30:35 stassats`: not yet in slimv. 17:30:51 ok, step 0: stop using slimv 17:31:18 stassats`: only if you do complete vim keybindings in hemlock. 17:31:27 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:31:35 why hemlock? 17:32:45 -!- cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:33:01 i'm interested, does slimv use dual mode in the REPL too? 17:34:10 What would dual mode be? 17:34:27 you mean insert/normal mode? of course. 17:34:29 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.31.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:40 that stupid vi mode where you have to hit escape 17:34:44 but default is to have insert mode there - just fire and forget 17:34:44 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:47 (defslimefun inspector-history () 17:34:51 looks promising 17:35:55 do you use vi-mode in the shell? 17:36:22 stassats`: yes, of course! 17:36:23 ;) 17:36:33 does it have two modes too? 17:36:44 what thread is swank::*istate* defined in? the repl thread? 17:36:46 stassats`: yes. 17:37:05 stassats`: I just C-x C-e from the shell for anything I want to edit in vi; the shell vi-mode is kind of wonky 17:37:24 jasom: even simple commands? 17:37:27 Never had a chance to see a Genera up live, my Lisp Machine experience was limited to a TI Explorer, and it was pretty unintuitive, and we didn't have much of an introduction to the machine or any training. 17:37:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:37:42 stassats`: just when I need to do more than a tiny change 17:37:58 jasom: what do you do for tiny changes? arrow-keys + backspace + delete 17:37:59 ? 17:38:06 stassats`: most shell stuff I do is typing commands, so it doesn't matter , and yse 17:38:30 yes arrow-keys + backspace 17:38:36 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:38:45 how would you fix "yse"? in emacs it's just C-t! 17:38:46 but if I e.g. want to move a word 3 words over or something, C-x C-e 17:38:54 stassats`: xp 17:39:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:39:16 *stassats`* just does research on how to possible make vim people happy in his next cool slime-killer 17:39:22 or if I'm on the e xP 17:39:42 stassats`: I use evil+emacs+slime 17:40:23 well, it's not going to use emacs, so, no evil 17:40:45 stassats`: what are you up to? 17:41:11 flip214: nothing much, enjoying theoretical software 17:41:13 Well that makes it hard; I was using viper with about 800 lines of hand-written elisp to make viper more vim like and I survived, but didn't like it 17:41:18 it's so great, you wouldn't belive! 17:41:28 evil is really close to vim, so close I often forget which editor I'm in 17:41:31 ikki [~ikki@187.208.178.177] has joined #lisp 17:41:53 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:42:28 And I use vi stuff in the repl all the time, since I regularly am editing previous commands 17:43:19 jasom: but i rather meant, would you switch just to correct yse? 17:43:35 joe9_ [~joe9@c-24-98-97-215.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 stassats`: no es 17:43:41 i'm not sure i would even use C-t... 17:43:43 can anyone help with this formatting? in the middle screen is the line I am trying to format http://imgur.com/sOR48sa . I tried C-M-q, bound to indent-pp-sexp, but, that is not doing anything. 17:43:50 i am using emacs 17:44:20 C-M-q only indents, not prettyy-prints 17:44:31 but that's not common lisp, so, try #emacs 17:44:59 stassats`: #emacs does not seem to respond to this question. I read that cl or cl-extra can do that. 17:45:02 stassats`: when editing a text file, it would depend on if I had just typed it, or was moving around to change it; one of the things I like about vim versus earlier vis is that you can make small changes without leaving insert mode, which is faster 17:45:34 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:45:46 jasom, check out evil-mode of emacs. can get the best of both worlds. 17:46:26 Bike [~Glossina@71-34-78-123.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 *jasom* is using evil-mode and was extolling the greatness of it previous to joe9_'s entrance to the channel 17:47:02 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:47:05 jasom: oh, sorry about that. 17:48:28 jasom: can you help me with this issue? I am a newbie to the emacs world from the vim world. evil-mode was the reason I did that. 17:48:44 joe9_: do it by hand 17:48:44 but, am not able to figure out how to indent and pretty-print some lisp code. 17:48:44 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-069-122-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:16 minion: please tell joe9_ about luv-slides 17:49:16 joe9_: look at luv-slides: luv-slides is a slide show by Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig discussing good programming style in Lisp and more generally. See 17:49:22 stassats`: yes, but I want to learn emacs too as this with my workflow I will be doing this kinds of copy's more than a few times. 17:49:43 pretty printing won't produce good results anyway 17:50:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:45 joe9_: I would just =% and then add line-breaks where it makes sense 17:51:02 and then one last =% for good measure 17:51:07 joe9_: try (insert (pp (sexp-at-point))) 17:51:24 errr, M-: (insert (pp (sexp-at-point))) 17:51:28 while at the opening ( 17:51:29 jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:48 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 17:51:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:51:53 jasom, for some reason = or =% does not do anything. 17:51:59 stassats`: thanks. 17:52:29 sheesh, "thanks", tell me if it works! 17:52:43 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 joe9_: oh, of course it's not going to since it's one line that is already properly indented by 0 17:53:20 you could try g% but I would personally hand-add the line breaks 17:53:30 stassats`: that did it. Thanks again. 17:54:13 well, so much for reinventing the wheel, there's indent-pp-sexp 17:54:49 you have to call it with C-u M-x indent-pp-sexp 17:55:23 bah, C-M-q _is_ bound to indent-pp-sexp, so, C-u C-M-q 17:55:33 whatever that means in evil 17:55:42 -!- Guest81621 [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:10 stassats`: for some reason, it did not work. 17:56:21 I even tried it from M-x: indent-pp-exp 17:56:27 s/exp/sexp/ 17:56:32 but, that did not do anything. 17:56:34 did you do the C-u bit? 17:57:26 stassats`: no, I did not do that. 17:57:54 stassats`: got it, it worked now. 17:58:06 that was what I was missing. the C-u bit 17:58:47 btw, I read that C-u is for adding repititon numbers. I presume that in this case, we are telling it to keep repeating? 17:58:57 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:59:09 without a number, C-u repeats the command till it fails? 17:59:10 C-u is for passing arguments 17:59:19 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:51 stassats`: what arguments are we passing in this case? 18:00:04 "whatever" argument 18:00:16 C-u passes a "-", iirc 18:00:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:00:23 but i'm not sure anymore 18:02:10 no, it's 4, C-- is for '- 18:02:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:03:08 joe9_: see http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Prefix-Command-Arguments.html 18:03:18 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:03:53 stassats`: thanks. 18:04:34 you can use any of the listed ways with C-M-q 18:07:34 stassats`: for a newbie like me, I read through the C-h t manual. Is there anything that you would recommend to be able to use emacs effectively/efficiently? 18:07:48 use it for 10 years 18:08:34 that is a painful truth. 18:09:15 *stassats`* is on his 7th year 18:09:59 joe9_: reading the emacs manual and writing down interesting commands would be a good start 18:10:25 not the one i linked, that's for programming in elisp 18:11:48 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:12:22 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 18:12:53 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:44 -!- jarmond [~user@host-137-205-183-065.cov.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:13:48 gosub [d9857234@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.133.114.52] has joined #lisp 18:13:50 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:51 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 18:15:00 stassats`: quick question, what is the difference between an emacs command and an elisp function? It appears they are not the same. 18:15:24 (interactive)? 18:15:24 a command is the one which you can invoke from M-x or from a key-binding 18:15:58 yes, it's done distinguished with (interactive), but we're getting off-topic 18:16:20 stassats`: yes, thanks. that is all I need. 18:18:05 in SBCL, do bignum ops count as consing? 18:18:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:19:13 yes 18:19:34 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 18:20:10 LadyAndroid [Lady@host86-156-231-99.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:17 -!- LadyAndroid [Lady@host86-156-231-99.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 18:20:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:25:11 interestingly, sbcl conses even when doing (- most-positive-fixnum+1 1) 18:25:15 clisp does not 18:26:37 even ABCL does not cons 18:27:04 or maybe it doesn't report bignum consing 18:28:33 stassats`, why do you think that is interesting? Interesting as in unexpected? 18:28:40 clisp reports bignum consing 18:28:53 jasom: abcl does not 18:29:06 Qworkescence: the difference is interesting 18:29:41 I am still on a quest to supplant SBCL's bignums with something more performant. Maybe in a few years. 18:30:06 soon intel will have mulx and addx 18:30:29 adcx, rather 18:30:30 how would you do bignums without consing. Perhaps most-positive-fixnum + 1 in big num format is small enough to not need consing. 18:30:45 whartung: most-positive-fixnum+1 - 1 is a fixnum 18:31:15 what is most-positive-fixnum+1 ? 18:31:23 what do you think it is? 18:31:31 one greater than most-positive-fixnum 18:31:50 so, hat's a bignum, right? 18:31:54 least-positive-bignum 18:32:00 right 18:32:00 if you wish 18:32:20 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:32:25 the idea being that m-p-f+1 is consed up before the subtraction 18:32:33 so, even though the result of least-positive-bignum - 1 is a fixnum, doesn't mean the intervening calculation is not. 18:32:37 right 18:33:08 whartung: but it could (in theory) do the calculation on the control-stack without consing, for example 18:33:20 sure potentially 18:33:52 it could not cons by seeing that the result will fit into a word 18:34:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:34:18 well, into a fixnu, 18:34:21 m 18:34:28 bouchou [~sam@41.104.29.48] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 obviously a lot of this depends on the compiler 18:34:38 because least-positive-bignum surely fits into a word 18:34:47 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 whartung: which is why it was interesting to see which compilers consed and which didn't 18:35:48 lispworks doesn't cons too 18:36:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:37:03 a clever compiler can avoid consing by seeing that a bignum doesn't escape and modify it in-place, if an operation doesn't grow too much 18:37:15 right, exactly 18:37:24 be curious how big the equation can get 18:37:26 luqui [~luqui@63-227-9-82.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:34 stassats`: it would have to know there are no other references to that bignum first though, right? 18:37:52 jasom: that's what "doesn't escape" meant 18:37:55 but that's standard escape analysis 18:38:01 ah 18:38:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:49 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:55 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:38:58 that's not limited to bignums 18:39:18 (append list list1 list3) can do that too 18:39:27 si 18:39:54 as well as automatic stack-allocation 18:39:57 with a sufficiently smart compiler, you never need use nconc 18:41:28 things like this could be even more extensive with a JIT compiler 18:41:29 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:18 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:43:15 on the consideration that a JIT would have more information than a static compiler stassats` 18:43:16 ? 18:43:54 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:44:24 what on it? 18:45:59 gst [~gst@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:49 you said "things like this could be even more extensive with a JIT compiler" - -I was curious how you felt the JIT would be more capable than a static compiler for this use case. 18:46:50 -!- gosub [d9857234@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.133.114.52] has left #lisp 18:47:02 it can know more at run-time 18:47:23 -!- bouchou [~sam@41.104.29.48] has left #lisp 18:47:25 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:55 Guest6136 [~ruben@pool-71-108-72-141.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:42 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:52:16 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:38 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 18:56:47 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:57:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:57:37 snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:33 -!- snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:59:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:00:19 snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 BZaidan [~GreenLant@41.252.7.183] has joined #lisp 19:01:00 good afternoon 19:02:48 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:18 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:04:29 -!- BZaidan [~GreenLant@41.252.7.183] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:46 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:43 -!- gienah [~mwright@gentoo/developer/gienah] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:08:35 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:18:49 Is there an analogous destructuring-bind lambda-list for (loop for (nil nil size nil) on some-list)? 19:19:18 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 19:19:20 And, yes, I should just use THIRD here...but I'm curious. 19:19:24 redline6561: you mean with automatic ignoring? 19:19:28 Right. 19:19:29 redline6561: no. 19:19:33 Didn't think so. Thanks. :) 19:19:34 Not a standardo ne. 19:20:08 (destructuring-bind (* + size -) some-list) ;; don't use that 19:20:12 -!- n0oy [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:45 ha 19:20:51 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 19:21:14 *Xach* thinks about starting tumblr bad.lisptips.com with antitips like that 19:21:28 lol 19:21:35 well, it's really useful for code-golfing 19:21:44 :) stassats` +1 19:21:48 surely if you have destructuring-bind you have already lost at code golf 19:21:53 you don't want warnings in your short code, do you? 19:22:03 Krystof: i mean using repl variables in general 19:22:05 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 19:22:30 like (set'* x) instead of (let((y x)) ...) 19:22:46 ha, nice 19:23:09 saves one character over the setq -- I like the attention to detail 19:23:43 the lisp code-golfing auto-judge i used didn't like sbcl warnings, i.e. c-f failures, so (set'y x) doesn't work 19:23:55 what world have I ended up in that both my work and my hobby projects are in C++? 19:24:50 Is your hobby project implementing CL in C++? 19:25:49 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF50421.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:52 Krystof: Is your work stuff for Teclo, or Snabb, or other? 19:25:57 i discovered many idioms to shorten cl code, for example: (when (evenp x) (print "even")) => (format (evenp x) "even") 19:26:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:16 stassats`: that is quite fine 19:26:27 stassats`: Haha, nice. 19:26:28 s/when/if/, of course 19:27:42 #1# helps too 19:27:48 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF506CE.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:28:11 sellout-: actually both for Teclo and for Goldsmiths 19:28:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:28:34 Xach: sadly not 19:28:43 Krystof: Ah right  I forgot youre still an academic ;) 19:29:13 some of the time 19:29:26 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:29:41 actually I glorify myself in thinking that my coding is even vaguely relevant -- mostly I am a teacher and paper-pusher at the moment 19:30:03 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-198-127-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:30:34 to check for if a list has nothing but 1: (find 1 list :test-not #'=) => (remove 1 list) 19:31:04 beaumonta [~abeaumont@133.Red-81-34-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:06 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@81.34.239.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:58 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 19:33:09 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 19:33:13 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.199.37.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:57 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 19:34:04 or to convert number to a month: (elt sb-impl::*long-month-table* 1) => "February" 19:35:02 -!- victor_lowther 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#lisp 19:58:47 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-93-176.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:24 stassats`: (format (evenp x) "even") is non-portable, because evenp returns *generalized* boolean 20:00:30 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-xjycnimnkgzuppjl] has joined #lisp 20:00:31 -!- snearch_ [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:00:52 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:01:00 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:01:08 akovalenko: with sb-impl, I think the golfing does not have portability ambitions 20:01:19 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:47 -!- snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:03:01 snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:40 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-D7305996.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:03:46 -!- 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McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:57:22 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:41 a let will work 20:57:44 -!- lduros` [~user@2607:f470:24:3:8d43:1999:e545:3af0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:08 if you're doing something like (defun foo () (defparameter *bar* 9) ...) then for one don't do that, and for two *bar* probably (definitely?) won't be declaimed globally special by the time foo is compiled, so references to *bar* in the body will be thought by the compiler to refer to a nonexistent lexical variable 20:59:55 zophy, if you want the equivalent of racket's local, you'll have to implement it 21:00:01 OR, you could use fare-utils:nest 21:00:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:21 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:01:29 -!- dt770 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#lisp 21:45:37 Qworkescence` [~quad@173.252.71.2] has joined #lisp 21:45:45 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:45 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:28 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:47:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:48:39 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:48:47 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:06 francogrex [~user@109.134.234.147] has joined #lisp 21:49:46 what does the * mean in this declaration: (type (simple-array single-float (*)) array) ? 21:50:21 it's a placeholder 21:50:50 (simple-array single-float (4)) would be a simple array of single-floats with one dimension of size 4. with the *, it's one dimension of unspecified size. 21:51:06 n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has joined #lisp 21:51:25 ok and two dimensions woyld be (list * *) ? 21:51:39 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-mrrcmbvqulltdjvx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:39 (simple-array single-float (* *)) 21:51:43 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:47 or (simple-array single-float 2) 21:51:56 (2 meaning that's the rank) 21:52:09 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 21:53:11 ok. see I stole this from someone: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136017 it's the first time i realize how to avoid boxing 21:53:23 of floats. Are there other means? 21:54:04 Why do you square val each time? 21:54:32 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:16 it's just an example for multiplying floats, it doesn't mean anything mathematically 21:58:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:58:23 -!- grayston [~peter@h182125.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:55 they say "inlining" also avoids boxing 21:59:21 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 So (length '(1 2 3 . 4)) throws an exception? 22:02:37 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:06 doesn't have to 22:03:07 drmeister: "Should be prepared to signal an error of type type-error if sequence is not a proper sequence." 22:03:42 (sigh), I didn't read that far down - sorry. 22:03:53 clhs 1.4.2 22:03:53 Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm 22:06:34 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.130] has joined #lisp 22:06:38 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:06:47 drmeister: I can recommend when you have 'questions about the specifications', the hyperspec is very close to the standard :P 22:07:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-115.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:41 Everything is fine, my length function threw a type-error exception - I didn't expect it. 22:08:24 what'd you expect? 22:09:57 I thought (let ((a (list 9 10)) (b (list 1 2 3 . a))) b) should stitch the lists together - my bad. 22:10:17 drmeister: you meant list*. 22:10:31 Oh yeah. 22:10:37 also you need let*, so 22:11:24 Yeah, I just caught that. 22:11:36 "A list is a chain of conses in which the car of each cons is an element of the list, and the cdr of each cons is either the next link in the chain or a terminating atom." so a list is not a 'proper sequence' at all, and length works on SEQUENCEs, not LISTs 22:12:01 ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.134] has joined #lisp 22:13:16 "The types vector and the type list are disjoint subtypes of type sequence, but are not necessarily an exhaustive partition of sequence." 22:15:17 grayston [~grayston@h182125.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:15:54 -!- grayston [~grayston@h182125.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:48 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:56 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 22:17:55 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:20:04 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:23 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.234.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:43 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 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WTF? 23:43:30 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.231] has joined #lisp 23:43:53 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest29914 23:43:54 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5DC6367C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:45:15 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:15 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:45:15 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:47:03 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 23:49:44 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:00 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:51:17 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:52:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:21 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:55:52 hey boston lispers, any recommendations for a tapas bar or similar, fun, delicious eating/refreshment establishment in the cambridge area? 23:56:31 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:32 slyrus: There was a great pub that brewed their own beer and had great food... and we had like the first BLM there ... 23:57:45 CBC was it called? 23:59:02 cambridge beer corporation? 23:59:23 oh, cambridge brewing company 23:59:28 yes! 23:59:42 and there is an Irish pub nearby there as well IIRC