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joined #lisp 00:45:27 -!- ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 00:47:05 -!- Gurragchaa_ is now known as Gurragchaa 00:47:27 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 00:47:28 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:50:06 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has joined #lisp 00:50:49 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:21 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 tigranes [~tigranes@174.34.144.148] has joined #lisp 00:52:47 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:27 Hi! What window managers/desktop environments do moren Lispers use? It seems that StumpWM has gotten dormant... 00:53:28 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 00:54:07 moren? 00:54:08 tigranes: Oh, modern? I figured it was moron initially ;) 00:54:11 *stassats* wonders a type for what could that be 00:54:44 tigranes: I use stumpwm when I use one. 00:54:46 modrn, sorry 00:54:53 Crap, can't type today, apparently 00:54:55 tigranes: stumpwm is great. You can fork it from github. and happy hacking 00:55:07 "typo" is the best word to make a typo, btw 00:56:00 yes, nevermind, it's a tpyo 00:56:12 tpyo is a typo 00:56:15 i don't think that being a lisper entitles one to use some kind of a special window manager 00:57:28 sellout-, sw2wolf: All right, will give it a try. Thanks! 00:57:56 tigranes: There's also #stumpwm for stump-specific help 00:59:05 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:59:15 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:36 stassats: Well, no, but I think lispers do have a certain mindset, especially since most (?) are used to Emacs and its boundless customizations to get things _just right_. 01:00:10 that's just because emacs is unusable without customizations 01:01:23 stassats: You might have a point there... 01:02:27 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:42 and that's caused by the utter inability of lisp people to any sort of consensus 01:04:23 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-73-100.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04:51 so if you add a new cool feature, you have to add ten switches so that disgruntled old-timers can disable and feel like it's 1984 01:06:48 Can we agree to disagree? 01:07:30 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 01:07:38 Fare: depends on what upon! 01:08:21 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:09:58 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 01:11:06 Heh 01:13:24 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 01:13:47 fwiw, i use stump too. however, there aren't many compelling reaons for me to use it. 01:16:24 I've been using awesome for the past week or two, which has been nice, but having to configure everything with Lua is painful, even if it is a lisp dialect of sorts. 01:18:37 i'm using ion3, where the author is a wacko and it's not maintained anymore at all 01:19:44 just hacking https://github.com/sw2wolf/stumpwm/blob/master/input.lisp, now i can input digits using numpad :) 01:21:30 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:21:40 bananagram [~bot@pool-108-56-161-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:33 i winder why canot work the ECL built stumpwm ? http://dpaste.com/hold/1018799/ 01:24:47 /s/winder/winder 01:24:55 /s/winder/wonder 01:24:56 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:00 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:34 sw2wolf: ECL can not build stumpwm? 01:26:48 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:03 it was recently reported it can: http://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/news/2013/01/stumpwm-can-be-built-with-ecl/ 01:27:58 dropbox's 404 page is the best I saw so far 01:28:37 i prefer pages which can be found 01:28:45 -!- Zhivago [~lys@1.234.65.131] has quit [Changing host] 01:28:45 Zhivago [~lys@unaffiliated/zhivago] has joined #lisp 01:30:03 stassats: maybe it's because you haven't yet discovered the dropbox's 404 page? 01:33:43 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-14-38.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:41 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-229-43.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:37:17 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:30 antonv: ECL can build it. but the created image cannot run 01:38:05 even if ECL can produced smallest image 01:40:09 is the size of the image an important measure? 01:42:23 sw2wolf: ask on ECL devel 01:42:34 do other images work? 01:42:45 all works except ECL 01:43:48 k0001_ [~k0001@host94.186-125-98.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:43:55 that's good 01:44:42 have you read the notes in the link about building stumpwm with ECL? Maybe some fixes described there are not applied yet? 01:47:18 maybe 01:47:25 preyalone [48cd1bdf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.205.27.223] has joined #lisp 01:47:36 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host22.190-229-164.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:42 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:47:51 irpanech6 [~user@24.68.147.45] has joined #lisp 01:48:02 it seems nobody has been using ECL built stumpwm here ? 01:48:13 When I embark on a new project, I often can't decide whether to use Lisp or Haskell. What's the closest Lisp flavor to Haskell, OCaml, and other MLs? 01:48:37 preyalone: shen 01:48:40 preyalone: just use CL 01:48:46 there, i decide it for you 01:48:50 decided 01:50:36 *drewc* likes stassats decision! 01:50:48 preyalone: yes, use CL 01:51:42 Are there CL macros for Haskell-like pattern matching? 01:53:27 *drewc* googles ... 01:53:36 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pattern_matching#Common_Lisp 01:54:08 v_ [~v@61.170.244.10] has joined #lisp 01:54:11 mojavy [~mojavy@124x35x46x4.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:54:43 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-match/doc/clmatch.htm 01:55:00 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 01:55:30 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55:50 minion: pattern matching? 01:55:51 pattern matching: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/pattern%20matching 01:56:10 preyalone: the best is optima 02:00:21 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:00:37 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 02:01:40 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 02:03:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:03:48 -!- preyalone [48cd1bdf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.205.27.223] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:05:01 Howdy howdy. I am working with slime on an opengl project using cl-opengl and cl-glut. I'd like to be able to modify the glut:display methods and recompile, and have glut update accordingly. ANy kosher way of doing this? I tried glut:post-redisplay but this eats up my processor like nobody's business 02:05:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:14 So I figured there's probably a nicer way 02:05:53 err. I used post-redisplay in the glut:idle method. I.E. continuously invalidating the display 02:06:32 anybody out there knows csh? I want to know how to timeout csh input: http://hpaste.org/83822 02:06:52 wrong channel 02:07:27 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 02:08:12 stassats: Maybe somebody knows ? 02:08:27 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:10:42 A macro only ever returns a single value - the value that it expands to - correct? It can't return multiple values. 02:10:57 Or they aren't allowed to return multiple values. 02:11:10 it can returned anything it wants 02:11:12 it's just a function 02:11:49 But more than one value doesn't make sense does it? 02:12:14 you shouldn't care about it 02:13:07 if you implement functions correctly, you would use them for macro-functions 02:13:57 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 02:14:19 doomlord__ [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:40 Got it. 02:21:05 sw2wolf, I know but I'm pissed ur asking about corn shell in a lisp channel 02:22:21 or c shell i guess 02:22:44 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:29:21 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:31 -!- v_ [~v@61.170.244.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:09 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:40:23 <|3b|> zulu_inuoe: you want it to only redraw when you redefine the display function? 02:41:36 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@92.36.192.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:41:57 3b: Pretty much when I touch any execution branch. I think what I'm going to do is throttel that idle loop. Finding out if glut has a way of doing this, otherwise I'll go nappy time 02:42:16 throttle* 02:43:36 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:44:01 <|3b|> yeah, just redrawing constantly is probably easiest 02:44:36 *|3b|* tends to do things where i'm redrawing constantly anyway, so not sure if there is any easy way to detect changed code 02:45:15 v_ [~v@96.44.165.177] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@108-166-97-185.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:55:04 stopbit [~stopbit@108-166-97-185.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:13 -!- deego` is now known as deego 02:58:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5DC62DD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:59:45 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:00:52 -!- akovalen` [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:01:57 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:59 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 03:02:25 -!- doomlord__ [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:29 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:03:51 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.130] has joined #lisp 03:05:32 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined #lisp 03:05:42 -!- doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:44 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:33 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:53 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:12:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:24:33 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:24:49 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:27:26 k0001 [~k0001@186.153.75.95] has joined #lisp 03:28:01 -!- bananagram [~bot@pool-108-56-161-155.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:28:02 hydrogenesis [~hydrogene@124.205.102.34] has joined #lisp 03:28:51 -!- hydrogenesis [~hydrogene@124.205.102.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31:43 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host94.186-125-98.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:38 rubenrubz [~ruben@pool-71-108-67-227.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:57 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:34:58 -!- lduros`` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:10 -!- rubenrubz [~ruben@pool-71-108-67-227.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:35:39 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 03:35:41 -!- irpanech6 [~user@24.68.147.45] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:36:20 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined #lisp 03:39:56 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-229-43.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:36 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 03:42:48 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:44:08 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has joined #lisp 03:45:41 catechu [~saketh@c-71-230-251-235.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:05 -!- catechu is now known as catechu_ 03:54:07 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:28 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:57:26 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 04:02:17 -!- catechu_ is now known as catechu 04:02:39 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:10:49 XexonixXexillion [~LudvikGal@130.56.95.67] has joined #lisp 04:14:05 Hi, I'm new to common lisp. Which free (free as in rms) implementation would you recommend? 04:14:22 sbcl and clozure cl 04:14:30 ^ ditto 04:14:34 ^ 04:14:40 What are the main differences? 04:15:02 clozure cl runs better on windows and has a graphical interface on mac. 04:15:12 sbcl is slower but produces faster code. 04:15:34 ccl compiles slower code very quickly and sbcl compiles faster code very slowly 04:15:50 factor x2 to x4 04:16:14 I'd normally rather he latter, and I also don't own a windows machine or a mac 04:16:23 s/he/the/ 04:16:29 then go sbcl 04:16:46 -!- mojavy [~mojavy@124x35x46x4.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:57 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:34 -!- tinnery24 [~tinnery24@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:17:39 I'm also new to Common Lisp. Are the commercial implementations of Lisp any better than the free ones? such as Allegro, and LispWorks 04:18:11 I became curious after reading about the game developer Naughty Dog's past use of Lisp 04:18:18 -!- n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:18:25 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:26 n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has joined #lisp 04:18:42 ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:37 catechu: I'm sure the customers like them. 04:21:06 they tend to have graphical interfaces on windows & mac & linux 04:21:06 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@174.34.144.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:19 and to respond to their customers 04:22:05 I read something on Andy Gavin's blog (co-founder of Naughty Dog) where he was bashing ACL's garbage collection, and saying that he has moved on to Ruby. 04:22:26 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:22:38 that's funny 04:22:39 wow what 04:23:09 tinnery24 [~tinnery24@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:18 this is where I read that statement: http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/10/25/lispings-ala-john-mccarthy/ 04:24:47 that's not a good source of opinion on common lisp 04:25:31 why not? 04:25:47 because it's not objective 04:26:06 I just bought Graham's ANSI Common Lisp and Norvig's book on Lisp, so I am hoping to learn more 04:26:43 and outdated 04:27:13 have there been changes since then? 04:28:10 is he the regular troll here or is that some other similar nick? 04:28:22 this is my first time in this channel 04:28:35 I am trying to determine if there would be significant benefits to implementing a project in Lisp versus C++ 04:28:43 (i mean gavin) 04:29:07 i don't think he's related to gavino 04:29:14 ah 04:29:24 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:49 catechu: what project is that? 04:29:50 that blog post is just "hey, i know common lisp too! there's a couple of amazon affiliate links along the way, sprinkled with opinions of ten years ago" 04:29:57 and where do you want to go? 04:29:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:30:20 pretty bad .. opinions of 10 years ago were wrong then too, as i recall 04:30:22 well I think Gavin constructed a dialect of Lisp and a compiler for it in which Naughty Dog wrote games from Crash Bandicoot to Jak and Daxter 04:30:40 I got the impression that he was qualified to comment on Common Lisp 04:31:09 hey Fare! 04:31:10 Fare: it's a web-crawler data mining thing 04:31:18 dto: hi! 04:31:34 catechu, lisp will probably help you experiment faster with the algorithm 04:31:55 C++ might squeeze a bit more speed out of the finished product for a lot more effort. 04:32:04 Fare: I don't plan on using many libraries, so I thought it might be a useful experience to try this in Lisp 04:32:12 so if you already know exactly what you need C++ might be better 04:32:22 if you don't Lisp might be 04:32:31 Fare: experimenting is the right word for what I am doing 04:32:58 is SBCL sufficient for such an application? 04:33:11 of course 04:33:12 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:33:21 I'd rather not use a commercial implementation of Lisp if it can be helped 04:35:24 what kinds of things do people in this channel use Lisp for? 04:35:32 and what implementation? 04:36:07 well, webdev seems popular these days. As is SBCL ;) 04:36:41 some people do games (dto, usually hanging out in #lispgames and other active denizens of #lispgames) 04:36:56 minion: pcl? 04:36:56 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:37:14 catechu: ^ I recommend that in place of ANSI CL by pg, btw 04:37:20 me too 04:37:25 PAIP is *great* to read *after* PCL 04:37:45 anyway, I have to cut short - going to work 04:37:50 cya 04:37:51 SBCL is impressive. It appears to solve most of the problems that kept me away from non-Emacs Lisp for 30 years. 04:38:08 greetings catechu. 04:38:10 esr: what kinds of problems were those? 04:38:25 dto: hello! 04:38:32 esr: my most recent SBCL Win story is this 04:39:16 esr: i can cross-compile and deliver the Windows EXE binary of my games using WINE to run the Windows EXE version of SBCL, and the game EXE that it dumps works BOTH on wine and on real windows! 04:39:28 catechu: Poor binding to the ANSI C API. Poor compilation perdormance. Extreme language fragmentation, with highly idiosyncratic dialects. 04:39:34 just wrap your mind around what an awesome nuclear capability that is 04:40:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 04:41:24 catechu: Noq, granted, if Python weren't such an effective pseudo-Lisp I might have come back sooner. That probably retarded my re-entry by about a decade :-) 04:41:43 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:25 esr: So you found SBCL's compilation performance sufficient? 04:43:09 catechu: Can't say for sure yet but field reports I found with Google give me a good feeling about it. 04:43:15 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:37 catechu: sufficient for what? 04:44:04 stassats: just his subjective evaluation 04:44:06 catechu: I'll need to finish and test my Python translation vefore SBCL performance gets the acid test. 04:44:07 your web-crawler will unlikely be cpu-bound 04:44:13 unless you have a really thick pipe 04:44:41 I'm not building a web-crawler. 04:44:51 I had brought that up before 04:45:07 catechu is, or planning to 04:45:22 And reposurgeon's topo analysis of large repos really is CPU bound. 04:45:38 stassats: I haven't started yet, I was more curious about esr's "poor compilation performance" fixed by SBCL comment 04:46:42 I'd love to get a 50% performance improvement. I'd settle for 30%. I suspect 50% is in reach. 04:49:08 esr: what have you tried with SBCL so far? 04:50:28 catechu: Haven't written a whole program in it. I've started an experimental translationm of reposurgeon, a largish program written in Pyton. 04:50:36 esr: I am looking at reposurgeon now 04:51:34 esr: I'm curious to see the result of that translation 04:51:36 both CCL and SBCL produce native code in image ? 04:51:45 yes 04:51:59 catechu: The program architecture and design has been spectactularly seccessful but I'm hitting performance problems on large repos. Not all of them can be optimized out. 04:52:05 it should be faster than CLISP 04:52:13 they are 04:53:00 stassats: How about ECL? 04:53:18 catechu: It's only 6% complete so far. Not ready to show - I want to get some of the core classes translated first. 04:53:18 ECL either uses a byte-code compiler, or GCC 04:53:36 esr: okay 04:53:37 still slower than SBCL or CCL 04:55:00 catechu: Also, I want to try to flatten out some O(n**2) operations in Python. It is still possible I won't need to translate to a compiled language, though that possibility looks decreasingly likely now. 04:55:03 SBCL is great. But why does SBCL's stumpwm image double the size of CCL's stumpwm ? 04:55:18 who cares about the image size 04:55:28 care RAM 04:55:42 *|3b|* would guess different compiler mostly 04:55:46 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:55:54 sw2wolf: sbcl creates quite big codein search of speed 04:56:09 esr: so your translation is partly intended to move reposurgeon to a compiled language? 04:56:09 RAM is cheap 04:57:07 then can SBCL double the speed of CCL ? 04:57:23 esr: you call "50% performance improvement" a speed +50% (x1.5 speed) or a runtime -50% (x2 speed) ? 04:57:30 stassats: unless you're maxed out and adding more involves completely new machine 04:58:24 catechu: That's the purpose, yes. Lisp is the only compiled language I know of with a type ontology roughly matchingg Python's in richness. 04:58:40 sw2wolf: not *that* big. there are also simply differences in how some data is stored, that impact image size 04:58:46 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:58:51 Fare: The former (x1.5 speed). 04:59:00 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|phone 04:59:48 esr: what decided you against PyPy ? 05:01:03 esr: what sorts of projects have you used Lisp for in the past? 05:01:11 Fare: I don't have a final decision against it yet. I'm at a very early stage of translation and could change strategies without losing much time investment. 05:01:25 teggi [~teggi@113.173.31.207] has joined #lisp 05:03:07 esr: I'll follow you progress on G+ and/or your blog. In any case, if I can help, or even just provide style guidance as to how things are generally done these days I'll be glad 05:05:22 Fare: Thanks. 05:06:28 -!- kranius [~kranius@88.190.20.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:06:50 -!- deego [deego@unaffiliated/deego] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:06:56 catechu: I've written a crap-ton of Emacs Lisp. Last I checked I had more code in the Emacs Lisp libraries than anybody but RMS. 05:08:17 catechu: Probably my most widely used Lisp work is the version-control and GDB Lisp interfaces in Emacs. 05:08:31 kranius [~kranius@lafitte.pro] has joined #lisp 05:08:33 esr: okay 05:09:03 catechu: All my other Lisp stuff was per-1981 and long obsolete. 05:10:52 esr: I see 05:11:12 k0001_ [~k0001@host69.190-136-196.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:11:26 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:12:37 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-24-6-156-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:04 -!- k0001 [~k0001@186.153.75.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:12 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 05:20:42 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.222] has joined #lisp 05:22:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.222] has quit [Changing host] 05:22:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:25:34 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 05:26:42 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 05:27:01 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ucpfmbvwyfaemexw] has joined #lisp 05:27:01 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ucpfmbvwyfaemexw] has quit [Changing host] 05:27:01 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:27:12 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:27:53 -!- catechu [~saketh@c-71-230-251-235.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:29:15 ghostfreak [~ghostfrea@pool-71-108-67-227.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:55 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 05:30:37 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:51 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:33:12 -!- ghostfreak [~ghostfrea@pool-71-108-67-227.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:33:41 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:34:12 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.168] has joined #lisp 05:41:12 one good thing about lisp is you can write your program while focusing on high-level algorithms then add a few declarations, macros and/or compiler-macros to speed it afterwards for low-level performance where it matters. 05:45:05 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:45:52 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.123.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:40 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:49:09 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:37 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:41 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:59:57 Sean-Der [~sean@c-24-12-64-138.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:51 How come the (intern) is not returning #'foo? http://paste.debian.net/240895/ sbcl is just giving me a nil in slime 06:01:21 sdemarre [~serge@125.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:01:28 quazimodo [~quazimodo@58-6-47-122.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:01:37 intern returns a symbol 06:01:45 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:45 not a function 06:02:39 and (intern "foo") will intern a symbol named "foo", not "FOO" 06:03:10 'FOO == 'foo so I should be ok there right? 06:03:11 and INTERN will into current package, so even if you get the case right, this is still wrong 06:03:19 (funcall (intern ... ))) 06:03:37 Sean-Der: no, it wouldn't be ok 06:03:38 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ojighcoflxfsxzza] has joined #lisp 06:04:07 i just told you that it's not ok, (intern "foo") will intern "foo", not "FOO" 06:04:35 (funcall (intern "+") 1 2) => 3 06:06:02 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-25-34.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 06:06:15 stassats: Ok thanks for the patience now I get it.. How come intern is case-sensitive? 06:06:15 Sean-Der: the common lisp reader converts symbols it reads to upper case before interning them. that is why (eq 'foo 'FOO). but consider (not (eq (intern "foo") (intern "FOO"))) 06:06:38 Sean-Der: because symbol names are case-sensitive 06:08:45 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:08:45 -!- Bacteria_ is now known as Bacteria 06:09:05 Ok that was a stupid assumption on my part. Thanks for the help and I found some stuff on Clicki about it also 06:09:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:09:44 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:12:56 Is it safe to slime-connect to a swank server runnning on different box ? 06:13:37 over what kind of network? 06:13:42 for arbitrary kind, use ssh tunnels 06:13:49 LAN 06:15:19 On swank server side, how to control which one can connect ? 06:15:41 swank only listens on 127.0.0.1 06:16:51 then if it is confiured to allow other box to connect ... 06:17:00 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:25 sw2wolf: swank has no access control features. any process running on the local host can connect to a running swank server. 06:17:44 that's not true 06:17:45 sw2wolf: thus, don't use swank on a machine where users that you don't trust have access. 06:17:58 stassats: please elaborate. 06:18:10 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-180-181-12.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:15 swank can use passwords to allow only the current user to connect 06:18:33 from another box ? 06:18:43 sw2wolf: it listens on 127.0.0.1 06:18:50 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-mxfhqtoiaqznqrnf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:19:04 then cannot connect from other box ? 06:19:07 stassats: how is the password feature used? 06:19:12 sw2wolf: no. 06:19:25 sw2wolf: use an ssh tunnel if you need to connect from another box. 06:19:41 ssh tunnel, thx 06:19:59 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.178.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:14 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:20:39 H4ns: by creating ~/.slime-secret file with a secret and appropriate permissions 06:21:45 stassats: good to know, thanks. i retract my comment claiming that slime "has no access control features" and replace it by "has no access control enabled by default" 06:23:04 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:24 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:28 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.209] has joined #lisp 07:42:19 CrazyEddy [~ruralite@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:43:04 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-paavhnbwetpjmscj] has joined #lisp 07:47:53 -!- p_l|phone is now known as p_l 07:50:00 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:50:25 -!- momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:24 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has joined #lisp 07:54:13 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:55:58 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:56:08 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 07:56:31 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:57:19 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.209] has left #lisp 07:57:43 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 -!- rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:01:47 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 08:04:31 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:07:33 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:08 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:54 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 08:10:53 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:11:10 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 08:13:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:14:04 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:45 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host166.186-109-176.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:18:16 zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has joined #lisp 08:18:38 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:23:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-78-123.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:24:01 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:24:26 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:25:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:25:28 Good morning. 08:25:51 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:26:51 morning 08:32:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:32:28 how is the morning welcoming everyone_ 08:33:05 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:22 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 08:39:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:59 not too welcoming for me 08:40:33 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:47:32 -!- balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:15 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 08:49:35 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 08:50:33 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.253] has joined #lisp 08:52:27 -!- CrazyEddy [~ruralite@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:53:51 subfusc_ [~user@cm-84.209.241.221.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 08:53:55 -!- subfusc_ [~user@cm-84.209.241.221.getinternet.no] has left #lisp 09:01:09 PAIP was published before the standard was completed, right? 09:02:21 snowylike: yes. But it has a bunch of interesting stuff :) 09:02:38 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:05 p_l: good 09:05:53 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:06:07 CrazyEddy [~Bertoloni@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:09:42 -!- kcj [~casey@27.252.253.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:12:40 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.221] has joined #lisp 09:15:11 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:01 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has joined #lisp 09:16:44 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:17:28 cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-206-63.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:24:42 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:25:35 -!- googol_ [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:26:45 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 09:27:06 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:29:59 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:31:09 moah [~gna@dslb-188-109-205-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:47 hello #lisp. is there some library for CL providing the scheme construct "named let"? 09:32:31 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:42 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:33:26 abeaumont [~abeaumont@125.210.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:34:10 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:34:10 moah: 'labels' should suffice 09:34:21 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:00 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:09 I know, I'm just looking whether some "standard" macro for this exists. 09:38:11 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@125.210.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:20 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 09:38:42 moah: there are several implementations of a named let around. Search on cll. 09:38:55 The standard one is CL:LABELS. 09:39:40 clhs labels 09:39:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 09:41:16 hm, okay. 09:41:37 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:20 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 09:49:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:27 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has joined #lisp 09:50:42 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:50:42 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:50:42 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:50:56 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 09:52:21 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:27 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:53:19 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:55:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:55:58 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:08 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:59:42 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:53 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:25 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 10:03:20 balle [~basti@espera.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 10:03:33 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:45 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:10:34 impomatic [~digital_w@158.195.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:51 -!- plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:10:59 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:58 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 10:13:02 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:16 SrPx [b1626a95@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.98.106.149] has joined #lisp 10:17:02 Opinion request. Would Lisp suck without macros? 10:18:41 can't have an opinion on something that does not exist 10:18:48 It depends on how much you care about invisible seamless extensions. 10:19:05 Sure it does -- look at the earliest interpreters -- no macros there. 10:19:08 Zhivago: Goo danswer! 10:19:29 Sorry. "Goo answer!" :-) 10:19:35 Aaargh. 10:19:45 Cleary I need to sleep more... 10:19:51 If you don't care, then it would be fine -- remember that macros are just little compilers. 10:20:03 You could always write out the result of what would be a macro expansion by hand. 10:20:38 A more interesting question might be "how much do CL macros suck?" 10:20:47 And I'd probably say "quite a lot". 10:21:32 Yes, macros are powerful but the same qualties that make them useful maske them a maintainance problem. 10:21:59 Well, they're actually not very powerful at all. 10:22:31 In CL that is. CLTL2 macros were significantly more powerful, but they compromised all of the environment stuff away to get to CL. 10:23:24 I'm far from an expert in CL, but I feel like it's not the macros that make lisp special or powerful rather than the structure that enables macros to work like they do 10:24:24 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:32 CL macros are quite powerful. They are not nearly as bad in terms of maintainance as they look at first. It requires some practice to write good macros, though. 10:24:37 Well, it's mostly syntactic sugar. 10:24:56 Consider how you might implement something that does what IF does with and without macros. 10:27:17 that is not where macros are useful. 10:29:20 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:28 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:39 nostoi [~nostoi@240.Red-88-27-67.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:50 As macros are language extensions I would say most people don't understand the language enough to extend it properly. That's not a problem of macros but of the macro programmer. 10:41:05 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:41:50 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:18 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:45:23 indeed 10:50:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-131-34.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:57:50 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:51 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 11:03:58 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@240.Red-88-27-67.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 11:04:01 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 11:10:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00341b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:27 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.72.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:13:13 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.76.27] has joined #lisp 11:15:43 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[~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:58:34 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:58:34 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 12:58:34 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:04:00 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 13:06:09 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@92.40.254.79.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:07:24 -!- v_ [~v@199.68.198.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:09:18 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:11:08 does anyone embed org-mode style segments into cl code? 13:14:04 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:15:58 zorkmoid: I heard other way around, cl code embedded into org-mode 13:16:04 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@37.203.76.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:08 kind of literate programming 13:16:17 that is silly .. 13:16:23 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 13:16:30 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.174.237] has joined #lisp 13:16:41 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ 13:16:46 zorkmoid: why? 13:16:58 zorkmoid: I dont think this is silly 13:17:28 the whole idea of literate programming is silly 13:18:06 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 zorkmoid: ok 13:18:28 zorkmoid, why do you suppose it's silly? 13:18:50 To much work spent on writing prose than on writing legible code. 13:19:20 are you suggesting that an equal effort cannot be put forth to both? 13:19:30 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:19:30 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:19:45 literate programming might be good for things you do not change.. 13:19:52 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.26] has joined #lisp 13:19:55 yes that may be true 13:19:59 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:19:59 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:20:26 it is totally silly for anything real world though, explaining an algorithm for the first time, maybe that is what literate rpogramming is usefulf or. 13:20:36 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 13:20:58 but I think a goal of literate programming is to reduce the amount of changes you need by forcing you to be explicit about your thought process, and more importantly, the rationale of your code 13:21:04 it is silly to dismiss things as silly 13:21:19 H4ns: true, though i have been called silly :-) 13:21:31 zorkmoid: rightfully so :D 13:21:33 I can't reach common-lisp.net. Is it visible to thers? 13:21:34 Qworkescence: sadly, that is not the case when a user comes up and say something. 13:21:57 zorkmoid, what do you mean? 13:22:06 esr: it redirects me to http://beta.common-lisp.net/ 13:22:33 mutley89 [~mutley89@92.40.254.79.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:23:06 Qworkescence: so you write your literate explanation of FOO, user comes back to you and really wanted BAR ... what do you do? Spend a week writing prose, or just the code? 13:23:11 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:37 zorkmoid, well if you are literate programming, of course, you spend the time to rewrite accordingly 13:23:39 antonv: Hm. That's not working for me either. But I'm able to reach other sites. 13:23:49 esr: works for me 13:23:50 v_ [~v@61.170.244.10] has joined #lisp 13:24:04 esr: and ping common-lisp.net works 13:24:22 zorkmoid, of course, if it is not reasonable to be thorough and document like that, then literate programming is probably not a good choice, since it is not the expedient choice 13:24:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:24:37 antonv: down for me too 13:24:48 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-97.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:24:54 ping fails from here. 13:24:58 maybe ask in #common-lisp.net 13:25:13 do we really have a separate channel for common-lisp.net? 13:25:15 maybe DNS doesn't work? 13:25:25 try 74.115.254.14 13:25:36 PING common-lisp.net (52.7.166.114): 56 data bytes (no reply) from here 13:25:37 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.108.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:25:41 probably a dns issue 13:25:57 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 13:26:24 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:26:30 50.7.166.114 this is IP of beta.common-lisp.net 13:26:41 now shows "nginx works" page 13:26:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:04 Yeah, it's DNS. Oinging the IP work. 13:27:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:26 antonv: but what is 52.7.166.114 then? wrong dns entry? 13:27:28 ok, probably some maintenance is in progress 13:27:38 s/Oinging the IP work./Pinging the IP works/ 13:28:01 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:28:18 H4ns: beta.common-lisp.net = 50.7.166.114, common-lisp.net = 74.115.254.14 13:28:30 for me 13:28:47 common-lisp.net has address 52.7.166.114 when i ask the dns from here. 13:28:55 so there is a broken dns entry 13:28:58 drewc: ping 13:32:33 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:51 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 bitonic [~user@dyn1217-97.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:36:03 antonv: common-lisp.net is down here, so this might be rubbish. you don't need anything but org-mode. org-mode supports tangling, and it works reasonably well. 13:37:15 zorkmoid: legible code still doesn't describe the design choices you made when building the application. those design choices can make reading the code *a lot* easier. it may also help to provide code consistency in larger projects. literate programming has its downsides too though. 13:39:09 Code is a lossy transformation of a thought or idea. :) 13:39:15 madnificent: tangling in what sense? 13:39:36 madnificent: can you run a CL program written in org-mode? 13:40:19 antonv, tangling is a term from literate programming, meaning you can preprocess the program to remove the commenty parts, and make it compilable 13:41:26 ok, how to write an org-mode system and asdf:load-op it? 13:42:10 integration with slime is also desirable.... 13:43:51 antonv, I am guessing you either need to call org-babel-tangle-file to perhaps generate a new file, and then load that. (I've never done it so I don't know for sure.) 13:43:55 I am trying to maintain cl-test-grid in literate style 13:44:00 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-97.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:44:23 but as org-mode doesn't work in browser, I use just gitgub markup 13:44:50 waited so long when they fix relative links in REAME files 13:45:09 https://github.com/cl-test-grid/cl-test-grid 13:45:10 ebby [~ebby@static-213-115-28-4.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:45:37 top level README establishes goals, i.e. context necessary to understand submodules 13:45:43 bitonic [~user@dyn1217-97.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:45:58 antonv, I unfortunately think that good editor/SLIME integration with literate programming/Lisp won't be so good. 13:46:00 describes purpose of submodules (in one sentence for each), and their interactions 13:46:14 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:20 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:13 hi all 13:47:27 when reader goes into submodule, the information there is only about the submodule; and organized similary: goals, what subparts exists (short description) and their interactions 13:47:50 with links to source files, where comments are organized similary 13:48:04 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:48:10 antonv, I've had some ideas for a literate lisp maybe you'd be interested on working on something with me? 13:48:35 so I try to keep functional "specification" of the system together with code, and coherent 13:48:43 without duplicating information 13:49:18 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@158.195.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:49:19 Qworkescence: I would be interested, but I am affraid full real participation might be beyond possible for me 13:49:33 Qworkescence: I already want to do more than possible 13:49:44 antonv, me too :) 13:49:47 Qworkescence: but would like to hear/read the ideas 13:50:13 antonv, if you want to give me your email address or something I can write up my basic idea 13:51:02 So, I left my app running overnight and come back to "Mysql has gone away" error in the morning (using clsql) - anyone experience that? 13:51:13 do I need to do some periodic polling to avoid a time out or something? 13:52:22 ahungry: it could help to enable keepalives in your ip stack, but in general, a long running process should be able to re-establish its database connection if it fails. 13:54:22 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 13:55:13 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 13:55:49 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:56:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.96] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.96] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:57:44 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 ok thanks H4ns 13:58:52 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:06 -!- kalli [~kalli@194-144-126-150.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:59:39 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:56 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:27 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:01:42 lisp seems like a great language for a game server 14:01:59 ahungry: perfect language 14:01:59 update on the fly, edit unit stats from the repl as needed 14:02:04 for a game server 14:02:21 I just rewrote my little server into it, other than the mysql issue leaving it up all night, it seems to have worked perfect 14:02:32 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:42 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:14 ahungry: I don't remember when I started lisp which is running on my machine 14:03:42 haha nice 14:04:03 I just switch to emacs and continue what I was doing yesterday 14:04:41 you can count on this convenicence, but of course you can not count that you are guaranteed to work without restarts 14:04:57 sometimes it is easier to restart 14:05:26 antonv: I'm telling myself that one day I'll make an equivalent of Application Domains from .NET for some CL implementation :D 14:06:06 p_l: when you have this done, let me know immediately 14:07:08 although, if speak about sandboxing, OS process is a sandbox 14:07:32 so run two lisp processes and you have two application domains 14:08:07 antonv: yes, but at least one approach for it would be hooks into "low level runtime" to fork then manipulate the forked image 14:08:13 I actually am restarting lisp a lot right now 14:08:19 for example dumping lisp without dying 14:08:23 because i'm working on the game locally, pushing changes to my git repo, then pulling to server 14:08:41 well, I guess thats not restarting a lot, just when I push a new set up to the server 14:09:32 ahungry: anyway, if we want reliable sofware, it must be prepared to be restarted at any moment 14:09:35 right? 14:09:41 very true! 14:09:47 Is there a way to run something periodically btw? Like, call a function every 30 seconds? 14:09:56 forked or threaded preferably 14:10:00 ahungry: implement a timer? 14:10:10 and have the timer call a function that can be "whatever" 14:10:22 thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.21.25] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:11:01 madnificent: as i understood it, literate programming wasn't for describing design choices. 14:11:03 antonv: tangling converts the code in the org-file to lisp sources. that process is called tangling (it's the name Knuth gave it in his paper) 14:11:20 jarmond` [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:11:36 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:42 zorkmoid: and lisp wasn't purpose-built for writing websites... yet i use it for that, as it turns out to be just fine for that 14:12:21 antonv: you can export the org-mode sources to html and/or pdf. perhaps that helps for displaying them online... 14:12:25 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:34 p_l: what is the syntax for a timer call btw? Basically, I have a usocket server running in the background (via it's option flag to do so) - I listen for connections over tcp to my usocket server and modify server side variables as I receive the responses 14:12:52 ahungry: there's nothing standard, unfortunately, but read docs of your implementation 14:13:00 madnificent: i fail to see how that is relevant at all, the whole idea of literate programming was to describe programs in English. lisp was designed as a general purpose language. 14:13:02 I want to call one function that reads data from a database to refresh another variable every so often 14:13:02 there're also OS interfaces for that 14:13:13 Hmm...maybe I'll just add another tcp listener that refreshes the db 14:13:17 and call it in linux cron 14:13:20 you describe your program in English, you tangle it into something the computer groks, and you compile it. 14:13:27 that was what literate programming was about. 14:13:31 zorkmoid: and part of the program description, can be the design choices you made. 14:13:39 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:13:53 -!- jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:14:01 madnificent: that should be part of the manual, not the program code. 14:14:12 anyone want to help check my game's network connectivity? 14:14:13 -!- jarmond` [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:19 Its browser based front end, lisp back end 14:14:27 you dont have to sign up, just have a browser with html5 14:14:28 jarmond` [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:29 zorkmoid: 'no' 14:14:30 ahungry: cool 14:14:41 ahungry: dump the link in here already! 14:14:42 the game is at http://tactics.ahungry.com/play/ 14:14:42 madnificent: useful. 14:14:58 if you want to copy the source code, its at http://github.com/jehiva/ahungry-tactics/ 14:15:01 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:15:16 ahungry: "server down" message ... 14:15:35 let me see what lisp is saying 14:15:47 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:15:51 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:16:27 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-losycczuewwhvgaf] has joined #lisp 14:16:33 weird, what browser 14:16:38 i have only tested in latest chromium/firefox sadly 14:16:42 zorkmoid: it depends on who the manual is for. we never wrote manuals which weren't intended for the end users. however, we did have lisp projects with org-mode code in them. tangling them gives you a document containing whatever you need to know to understand the code (as, to my understanding of Knuth's paper was what it was supposed to do). and in my opinion, for slightly larger projects, that includes the design choic 14:16:50 if it can't find a websocket connection it will give a server down error 14:16:57 its multiplayer so needs it 14:17:00 jarmond`` [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:17:21 ahungry: intercom might potentially help you out there 14:17:44 madnificent i have written manuals who where not intended for end users.. 14:18:17 I'm actually running a unique chain of events, most people would probably say its not best practice ha 14:18:23 zorkmoid: this is going nowhere. you *can* use literate programming for it. i don't care if you do that or not. 14:18:34 Server > socket.io/node.js > my lisp tcp socket (via local calls from the node server) 14:18:35 ahungry: awsd are annoying for non-qwerty users. 14:18:46 hjkl works too 14:19:04 ahungry: dvorak 14:19:16 madnificent: i do, since i am the one reading the code. 14:19:20 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.27.201] has joined #lisp 14:19:25 its all done via the javascript so eventually i'll put in some optios to rebind keys 14:19:39 to move you use wasd or hjlk and move the target cursor to a new slot 14:19:41 and prses "m" 14:19:44 press* 14:20:03 -!- jarmond` [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:05 i do see you guys connecting so know it works taht much at least 14:20:08 zorkmoid: have you tried to document your design choices in literate programming? or are you just assuming it doesn't work because you haven't used it? 14:21:04 madnificent: documenting design chocies is not what literate programming is about. 14:21:12 it is writing code in prose instead of code. 14:21:15 madnificent: it is silly. can you leave it at that? it is also off topic. 14:21:17 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.174.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:43 Greetings! 14:22:12 H4ns: using org-mode to document lisp programs is not that off-topic tbh 14:22:19 No dumb questions today, came here just to watch :P 14:23:06 zorkmoid: well, try it one day. you'll be surprised. i don't see where it is supposed to fail. in fact, in practice, it worked out just fine. 14:23:56 madnificent: i have no reason to try something as silly as literate programming. 14:25:04 literate programming isn't silly, it's just quite funny. 14:26:10 Thra11 [~thrall@117.50.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:52 zorkmoid: that statement makes it a lot easier to grok your statements. :) back to pure lisp. 14:27:10 kalli [~kalli@157-157-117-169.static.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 14:27:20 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:30 pure lisp is nice 14:28:50 -!- jarmond`` [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:29:40 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@66-87-143-37.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has joined #lisp 14:29:40 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@66-87-143-37.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has quit [Changing host] 14:29:40 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 14:30:55 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@108-166-97-185.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:30:55 -!- Amadiro 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15:02:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:06:30 optikalmouse: why did you have to do that ? 15:07:55 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:55 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:11:39 fe[nl]ix: lack of knowledge of the lisp libraries :/ I use django at work so I know what's available for it and the docs are better (more tutorials, cl post-modern needs more of those (I wanted to write one but no time)) 15:12:50 I have some experience with org-mode and literate programming, but only for shell, java, lisp, and ruby 15:12:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:13:17 everybody who tries to use postmodern should know https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples 15:14:51 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:28 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.27.201] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:18:58 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:15 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:38 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 15:22:11 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:25 hi. in slime, if i have two REPLs corresponding to different implementations, and a code buffer, then C-c C-k in the code buffer loads into one of the REPLs. What is a good way to switch back and forth between the REPLs? 15:22:57 in mean, in terms of what C-c C-k does in the code buffer. 15:24:22 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-97.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:44 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:25:53 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:26:59 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:27:39 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.26] has joined #lisp 15:33:07 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:30 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.27.201] has joined #lisp 15:37:30 ok, looks like M-x slime selector plus n flips back and forth 15:37:38 is that the best way to do it? 15:37:50 bitonic [~user@dyn1216-52.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:39:03 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:09 PERSIAN_GULF [~vali_ghea@5.117.250.225] has joined #lisp 15:40:12 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 hello 15:40:31 -!- MoALTz__ is now known as MoALTz 15:40:38 -!- PERSIAN_GULF [~vali_ghea@5.117.250.225] has left #lisp 15:43:45 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:43:54 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1216-52.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:47:13 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:47:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:42 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.27.201] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:47:44 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:48:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:59:04 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-paavhnbwetpjmscj] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:00:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:01:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.96] has joined #lisp 16:01:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.96] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:01:31 lispyone [~lispyone@96.31.214.247] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.215.63] has joined #lisp 16:03:48 been away for awhile, common-lisp.net seems to not respond? Looking for the CFFI doc 16:05:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:51 lispyone: it's been noted earlier today (CET). probably a DNS issue. 16:06:30 madnificent: Thanks. Been awhile and I wasn't sure if it had been abandoned. 16:06:50 lispyone: add this hosts entry: "74.115.254.14 common-lisp.net" 16:07:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:20 fe[nl]ix: thanks 16:07:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:37 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:09:43 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 16:10:29 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.8.21.25] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:11:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:12:33 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:15:21 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:15:56 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@mail.pit.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:59 natechan [~natechan@50.192.61.46] has joined #lisp 16:16:13 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 16:19:03 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:22:00 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:23:15 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:32 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:30:39 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:48 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30:49 Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.39.92] has joined #lisp 16:31:08 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 16:31:18 -!- v_ [~v@61.170.244.10] has quit [Quit: ] 16:31:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:53 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:21 skbierm [~sascha@79.234.7.169] has joined #lisp 16:33:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:33:42 kiuma [~kiuma@217.133.17.91] has joined #lisp 16:33:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:34:50 -!- fogus|gone is now known as `fogus 16:35:07 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 16:37:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:43 Jasko [~tjasko@174.59.201.95] has joined #lisp 16:41:24 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:50 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:07 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@5357918A.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:44:07 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@5357918A.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:07 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 16:44:10 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:44:47 -!- Keshi is now known as Satanmohair 16:44:56 happy [~happy@14.99.111.155] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 -!- happy [~happy@14.99.111.155] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:53 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:45 can somebody help with RESTAS:DEFINE-ROUTE? Seems to have deprecated :PARSE-VARS since 201210 QL, but the examples in doc/ still use it. 16:48:08 -!- Satanmohair is now known as Keshi 16:50:29 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.215.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:50:51 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:52:54 any restas people here? 16:53:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:58:24 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@189.61.220.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:29 flip214: i don't use it, but i've heard in #lispweb that the documentation is outdated. if your russian is up for it, go ahead and dive in. 17:00:17 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.198] has joined #lisp 17:00:46 madnificent: yes, I found the "outdated" notice. No, I don't speak russian ... and I don't think google translate is up to it. 17:00:51 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:00:52 thanks anyway. 17:01:12 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:08 flip214: sorry, i don't like the situation either :/ 17:02:16 hrmpf, now RESTAS:START gives me either USOCKET:ADDRESS-IN-USE-ERROR or "The function BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-THREAD is undefined." 17:02:44 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:02:45 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.141.176] has joined #lisp 17:03:07 (and i don't speak a word russian, so it's hard to help). pavelpenev doesn't mind helping people with resats though. perhaps ask him. 17:03:12 strange, because the function gets exported from BORDEAUX-THREAD ... 17:03:14 *restas 17:04:05 flip214: delete fasls. 17:04:08 flip214: remove all fasls. i had a similar issue with bordeaux-threads. the first error is likely because you tried to start a server that was already started (so the port it wants to use is already used by some process). 17:05:23 doing that now. 17:05:36 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.114.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:06:46 flip214: even if you don't know russian, i think the example code here is clear in your case: http://archimag.lisper.ru/2012/12/28/%D0%98%D0%B7%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B0_define-route_%D0%B2_RESTAS 17:06:54 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.228.66] has joined #lisp 17:08:07 Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.10.73] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 does "   parse-vars    :sift-variables.      :" read as old/new version? 17:09:11 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.141.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:36 flip214:"instead of the old parse-vars, use the :sift-variables declaration, for instance, I use code such as this" is my best translation(I studied a bit of russian when in high-school, can't say I prefer it over english docs :) 17:10:04 thanks, that would I have guessed. sadly the current definition is this: 17:10:09 (defmacro define-route (name (template &key method content-type) &body body) 17:10:18 so there's no sift-variables, too. 17:10:59 flip214: the macro is a bit hairy, restas:define-route declarations are at the start of the body, and are lists starting with keywords. 17:11:04 thanks, removing all FASLs did help. 17:11:16 androcles [~Jeff@sporkula.ss.uci.edu] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 ah, perhaps that's why I don't understand anything anymore. 17:11:20 thanksy. 17:11:59 I'll cover all of that in my english restas(more like lisp web dev in general, that happens to use restas) booklet i'm currently writing. 17:12:52 I'll work on a website to publish all of the content for free, but it's also on sale on leanpub if anybody prefers pdf/epub/modi 17:13:31 https://leanpub.com/lispwebtales 17:13:48 -!- am0c 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[~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:26 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:20:33 minion: memo for SrPx: lisp wouldn't suck without macros, because it's trivial to implement macros when you have lisp. It's not so trivial when you have a non-lisp. This could be a characterization of lisp. 18:20:34 Remembered. I'll tell SrPx when he/she/it next speaks. 18:21:45 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-156-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:22:01 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9506.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:22:52 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:11 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 18:24:55 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 18:25:50 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:48 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 oh that's how minion works :) 18:28:26 minion: what else can you do? 18:28:27 now what would compel me to do ? 18:28:46 he's very good at ignoring you when you start playing with him. 18:28:56 /msg minion help, yeah? 18:29:04 minion: on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness. 18:29:05 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 18:29:23 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.228.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:28 that's my favorite minion line :) 18:32:17 minion: tell gendl about minion 18:32:18 minion: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/minion 18:32:34 But the url is still valid. 18:33:02 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 18:34:17 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:08 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 forgottenwizard [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 18:36:10 -!- ZombieChicken [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:36:15 -!- forgottenwizard is now known as ZombieChicken 18:36:28 forgottenwizard [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:48 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:37:15 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 18:38:40 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:55 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:39:19 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@108.87.20.253] has joined #lisp 18:40:02 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-rnhcjuylolkaaanu] has joined #lisp 18:40:20 this link doesn't seem to work anymore http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/cliki-bot (from minion's page on cliki) 18:41:23 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.71.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:23 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 18:43:18 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:09 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:50 Has anyone here seen or developed a scheme for implementing tagged pointers in C++ for representing FIXNUMs etc within pointers? 18:47:12 to what end? 18:47:53 I've spent the last couple of days ripping out my old multiple-values handling code and replacing it with something smarter and it looks like a good time to add tagged pointers for fixnums, floats and characters 18:48:01 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:48:15 do you understand the concepts behind tagging and how that works? 18:48:59 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 18:49:05 I'm developing a new CL implementation in C++ and currently all of my objects are boxed in memory structures on the heap. It would improve performance to use pointer tagging to represent fixnums and doubles and characters. 18:49:09 drmeister: I've seen it within C with a union type, 3 tagbits, and 8-byte aligned pointers (which is what the system malloc used); stack allocated variables could not be pointed to in this scheme though 18:49:12 I understand the concepts behind tagging. 18:49:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-213-153-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:53 Here's my issue. I used C++ shared_ptr's (reference counted) as pointers. 18:50:05 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:50:11 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.198] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 18:50:12 These shared_ptr's have a pointer to the data and another pointer to a reference counting structure. 18:50:24 isn't shared_ptr boost? 18:50:43 jasom: shared_ptr is now part of the new C++ standard. 18:50:55 jasom: But yes, I'm still using boost::shared_ptr. 18:51:07 well you can't use a "out of the box" shared pointer, since it won't know the different between a tagged value and a pointer 18:51:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:21 I've subclassed shared_ptr. 18:51:45 whartung: you can supply a custom deleter to shared_ptr IIRC 18:52:01 I did that to handle multiple_values in a new and better way. 18:52:18 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-213-153-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 ok, then wht's the issue? not having done it, tagging should be reasonably straight forward. 18:52:41 jasom: Right, custom deleter, that's another thing I'll have to worry about. 18:53:24 -!- sdemarre [~serge@125.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:53:36 drmeister: ideally you'd like shared_ptr to not reference count or have a control block at all when it's an unboxed object 18:53:43 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 Ok, so I've created smart_ptr a direct subclass of boost::shared_ptr and then I created multiple_values which is a subclass of smart_ptr. multiple_values is not important here. 18:53:59 jasom: That is correct. 18:54:36 I could create a Fixnum_tagged class that has a single instance variable of type "int" and use smart_ptr 18:54:40 drmeister: you could make a class "UnboxedFixnum" and specialize the smart_ptr template off of that 18:54:58 brudgers [~opera@68-119-80-136.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:43 yeah, and then the constructor/desctructors need do nothing other than set the tag bit 18:56:41 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 I'm trying to figure out how to describe the next part - it's tricky. 18:58:46 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:58:55 I overload the "->" operator to check if the reference count pointer is tagged and if it is, I cast "this" to (UnboxedFixnum*) and return it. 18:59:24 Let's just say for now that we only have UnboxedFixnum as the only tagged pointer type. 18:59:33 Forget doubles or characters. 18:59:53 drmeister: not "this" 19:00:25 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:00:58 drmeister: shared_ptr has a level of indirection already 19:01:15 The problem that I run into is that I have to toss virtual functions that I defined for the T_O (boxed T class) for UnboxedFixnum out the window - OR is there some way to fool the compiler into allowing me to use virtual functions. 19:02:22 jasom: I think I do want "this" but that's why I'm asking. 19:02:26 drmeister: if -> is a virtual member function, then you are fine since smart_ptr is a different class from other smart_ptr 19:02:38 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-217-195-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:42 jasom: -> is not a virtual member function. 19:02:53 if it's not virtual, then you need to rewrite -> to check for the tag bits 19:02:53 but that might be an interesting idea. 19:03:08 jasom: That was part of my plan. 19:03:15 anyway lunch... 19:03:24 Ok, thanks for your help 19:03:41 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:04:42 That's an interesting idea - virtual -> Hmmmmm. 19:05:06 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:56 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-213-153-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:06:09 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:07:08 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 sdemarre [~serge@125.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:10:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 19:15:02 ase [~ase@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 19:15:05 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 19:15:10 Greetings lispers 19:15:12 rndnick476 [~user@stgt-5f71beba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:39 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:16:06 -!- kalli [~kalli@157-157-117-169.static.simnet.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:36 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:19:14 masondesu [~textual@74.177.96.175] has joined #lisp 19:19:16 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:15 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:24 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:27 Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71.84.34.33] has joined #lisp 19:23:55 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 19:24:39 AeroNotix [~xeno@abom186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:24:40 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:24:57 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:25:51 drmeister: remember that smart_ptr is itself an object, which is why "this" isn't what you want. You want get(); also a virtual -> might have worse performance than a static -> that checks for tagbits 19:26:41 symbole [~user@krlh-5f713dea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:53 -!- brudgers [~opera@68-119-80-136.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has left #lisp 19:30:10 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 -!- masondesu [~textual@74.177.96.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:32:03 hi, (FIND 3 '(3 3 4 3)) ---> 3 19:32:19 can I find all 3s without using remove-if-not (lambda (x) (eql x 3)) ...? 19:32:30 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 something with test and key keywords.... 19:33:08 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 19:33:19 kalli [~kalli@194-144-126-150.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 19:33:20 (remove 3 '(3 4 3 3) :test-not #'eql) i guess 19:33:23 ^ 19:33:24 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-217-195-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:33:28 thanks 19:33:43 Aren't you just meaning COUNT? 19:33:50 Seems like common-lisp.net is down? 19:34:01 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:34:06 puchacz: CL-USER> (count 3 '(3 3 4 3)) 19:34:08 3 19:34:12 (make-list (count 3 '(3 4 3 3) :initial-element 3) 19:34:26 nope, remove - makes more sense wihth more complex objects and custom key 19:35:35 minion: are you down? 19:35:36 maybe 19:38:59 does anyone know what what the successor to usocket is? 19:39:09 there is none 19:39:22 the author said he changed the project title 19:39:27 sounded like there was 19:39:59 -!- chouwa [wld@2a01:130:2000:121:230:48ff:fe64:340a] has left #lisp 19:41:35 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:43:24 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:40 PuffTheMagic: link ' 19:43:42 ? 19:43:45 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.148.198.99] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 19:44:22 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:47 He replied in a github ticket then disabled ticket support so you can only see his comment in his activity -> https://github.com/bsmr?tab=activity 19:44:57 maybe I misunderstood what he was trying to say :/ 19:45:30 PuffTheMagic: that is not the usocket maintainer 19:45:43 oh 19:45:54 guess that makes sense then 19:45:58 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 PuffTheMagic: see the last comment on that bug report 19:46:12 PuffTheMagic: the home page of usocket is common-lisp.net/project/usocket/ 19:46:22 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.199.37.98] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:46:23 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:23 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 19:46:29 which of course is down 19:47:09 PuffTheMagic: it will be back up in a while. 19:47:12 fe[nl]ix: sorry, i'd use iolib but there always seems to be lw bugs 19:47:21 to everybody: add this hosts entry: "74.115.254.14 common-lisp.net" 19:47:50 ... and get screwed when the new common-lisp.net comes into operation 19:47:56 drewc: ping ping ping 19:48:32 H4ns: knowing when to remove the hosts entry is not my responsibility :) 19:48:59 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@88.100.82.98] has joined #lisp 19:49:04 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 19:49:31 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:30 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined #lisp 19:51:40 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 i went to that hosts entry and it installed win 8 on my iphone 19:52:50 drmeister: instead of tagged values, it would be better for integration with foreign language to keep the tags separated from the values. 19:53:30 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71.84.34.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:54:00 typedef struct { int i; char c; float f; } c_struct; --> tag c_struct_tags[]={int_tag,char_tag,float_tag}; 19:54:32 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:54:38 Then you can have the tags: c_struct_tags[0] and the lisp=C value c_struct.i 19:55:30 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:56:14 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 19:56:19 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:58:05 not a union? 19:58:14 bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:58:39 No, a vector parallel to the memory. 20:01:39 Or a data structure mapping pointers to types. 20:02:32 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:04:02 mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.199.37.98] has joined #lisp 20:05:32 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:25 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:13 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:08:33 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:12:26 -!- rndnick476 [~user@stgt-5f71beba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:23 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.19] has joined #lisp 20:13:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.19] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:23 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:14:24 -!- androcles [~Jeff@sporkula.ss.uci.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:13 yrk [~user@50.133.134.220] has joined #lisp 20:16:23 -!- yrk [~user@50.133.134.220] has quit [Changing host] 20:16:23 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 20:18:00 -!- symbole [~user@krlh-5f713dea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:16 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-lvdxfhofxrhvdmik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:54 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 20:19:04 H4ns: here now 20:19:12 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|away 20:23:25 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:25 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:26 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:31:10 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abor7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:32:19 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 20:33:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:23 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:44 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abom186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:36:54 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:37:09 avis mon amis 20:37:23 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-rnhcjuylolkaaanu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:37:50 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-97-183.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:38:13 PuffTheMagic: I don't have a LW licence, sorry 20:39:23 Natch_q [~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 20:40:31 tippenei1 [~bo@199.195.252.184] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 aoh_ [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 20:40:57 AeroNotix [~xeno@abor7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:41:00 sklr_ [~clarkema@31-222-178-169.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:41:11 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 catechu [~saketh@71.230.251.235] has joined #lisp 20:42:07 clog_ [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 20:42:40 r126l_ [~ruwin126@120.142.9.17] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 stat_vi_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-000-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 abeaumont [~abeaumont@81.34.239.133] has joined #lisp 20:44:03 -!- catechu [~saketh@71.230.251.235] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:13 drewc: common-lisp.net fixed? 20:44:23 drewc: seems like at least a bad dns entry 20:44:43 drewc`` [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 20:44:44 tycho [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:45 -!- tippenei1 [~bo@199.195.252.184] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:46 -!- tycho [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:45:48 tycho [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:31 surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:46:54 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:14 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abor7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-fecee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- tippenein [~bo@199.195.252.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- spacefrogg^ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-000-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- sklr [~clarkema@31-222-178-169.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- pokes [~pp@pokes.xxx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:14 -!- r126l [~ruwin126@120.142.9.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:15 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:15 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:15 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:16 -!- Natch_q is now known as Natch 20:47:21 -!- tycho is now known as tychoish 20:47:43 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.198.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:00 tippenein [~bo@199.195.252.184] has joined #lisp 20:49:39 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.71.94] has joined #lisp 20:49:43 -!- surrounder_ is now known as surrounder 20:51:12 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:51:23 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@71.99.141.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51:42 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:56 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 20:52:13 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:52:29 Thra11_ [~thrall@67.9.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:45 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:21 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host8.200-117-39.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:53:36 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-fqcxzfjrwhmymqfg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:38 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.252.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:52 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 20:54:06 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 20:54:30 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.228.66] has joined #lisp 20:55:29 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 20:56:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:24 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:01 rtoym: ping 20:58:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-199.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:41 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:00:29 https://twitter.com/common_lisp_net <--- for the updated project.common-lisp.net stuff 21:01:25 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:03 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 21:04:22 catechu [~saketh@71.230.251.235] has joined #lisp 21:06:29 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:08:05 catechu_ [~saketh@71.230.251.235] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 -!- catechu_ [~saketh@71.230.251.235] has quit [Client Quit] 21:08:30 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:09:34 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:10:08 -!- catechu [~saketh@71.230.251.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:11:40 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-208.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:13:26 so is there a mirror of the asdf manual somewhere other than common-lisp.net? 21:14:14 pavelpenev: does http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/index.html#documentation not work for you? 21:14:29 drewc``: gives me a 404 21:14:41 http://project.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ ? 21:14:41 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-hdrbjhwoaywrnavf] has joined #lisp 21:14:58 drewc``: works, thanks. 21:15:16 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.228.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:15:31 and what does `host common-lisp.net` give you? 21:15:45 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c2cd8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:06 spewage 21:16:19 redirects me to http://common-lisp.net/cgi-sys/defaultwebpage.cgi 21:17:07 well, then your unix is screwed up, for `host` should never ever ever ever redirect, ever. 21:17:25 oH, sorry, I mean in the browser 21:17:39 drewc``: why use only twitter?... there are some methods to share and track muiltiple links? 21:17:53 host common-lisp.net 21:17:53 common-lisp.net has address 50.7.16.114 21:17:53 common-lisp.net mail is handled by 10 a.mx.common-lisp.net. 21:17:53 common-lisp.net mail is handled by 20864 20.mx.common-lisp.net. 21:18:11 it's been a long day :) 21:18:15 dioxirane: sorry? only? now I am very confused .. what do you mean exactly ? 21:18:29 common-lisp.net has address 52.7.166.114 21:18:34 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0104a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:18 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:28 zophy: yeah, so you have the DNSs that are 'screwed' ... it seems that for some reason the DNS system has messed up over the night ... soon it will be reset to the proper one .. 21:20:04 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:20:17 50.7.16.114 redirects and 52.7.166.114 dosen't answer 21:21:09 drewc``: good: there is a common-lisp.net on facebook.. not working _now_! :D 21:21:54 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.248.150] has joined #lisp 21:21:54 I'm confused .. 21:23:30 is there? interesting ... I will have them shut down for stealing my domain name for facebook?! Can you show me where common-lisp.net is apparently on facebook? 21:23:40 fe[nl]ix: the personal edition is fully functional (sans support for a startup file, which I have a fix for), so no license isnt really a valid excuse ;) 21:24:22 :) 21:24:39 PuffTheMagic: "I don't feel like installing proprietary software I'm not using myself" then? 21:24:39 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:42 ^^ i understand that sentiment, but the fact is a ton of people use LW, so if you are going to make a library that you hope other people use you would think you would try and test it on other implementations 21:26:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:42 *dioxirane* is looking at bitly now... (but I've never used it) 21:27:31 im trying to move my lab away from LW, but even then, i don't know what other people are going to use so I need a lib that works with as many as possible 21:27:35 well, testing on LispWorks is hardly comparable to making me install MS Visio, because passing an SE exam requires UML diagrams in MS Visio :) 21:27:43 Jasko [~tjasko@174.59.201.95] has joined #lisp 21:28:09 that shit got uninstalled so fast :) 21:28:31 viso was nice before ms bought it 21:28:35 visio 21:28:38 :-( I'm depressed 21:28:47 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 21:29:37 *drewc``* did not require UML diagrams to get his MCSE at all! 21:29:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:26 PuffTheMagic: no it's not. I can't run it in a terminal 21:30:41 drewc``: I should have called it "SE" instead of SE, because nobody learned anything and I still don't know what the proffessor looks like :) 21:31:17 *pavelpenev* getting away with 0 attendance like a boss! 21:31:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:31:24 PuffTheMagic: get your lab to give me a licence and I'll test everything I have on LW 21:31:42 pavelpenev: well, I have not had my MCSE since it expired, and that was '98 or so ... so really I am just sh1t talking :) 21:31:58 with a license you couldnt run in a terminal, don't see why a license matters 21:32:17 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:32:36 fe[nl]ix: I believe you can start a swank server manually from the IDE? 21:33:02 pavelpenev: I have no intention to do that. either it fits into my workflow or don't use it 21:33:50 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 21:34:57 fe[nl]ix: i didnt mean to try and convince you to do something you dont want to just, i've tried using iolib many times and I keep having to go back to usocket because it is more reliable :/, thats just the truth 21:35:16 s/to just/to do/ 21:35:33 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:58 PuffTheMagic: and I'm just saying that I can't use LW 21:36:04 if I could, I would test on it 21:36:07 heh ... figured out what happened to the DNS ... odd indeed ... a .commom-lisp.net.swp file was in the dir the the DNS uses to do things ... that file was all screwed up because it was never meant to be there. 21:36:46 that's what you get for using vim 21:37:13 or not having vim configured right anyway 21:37:54 fe[nl]ix: yeah, only as root, but that was still strange ... 21:38:18 emacs --daemon works well as root too 21:38:21 I think what happened is that it disconnected and saved the .swp, 21:38:31 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:00 fe[nl]ix: yeah, save for when it eats all the CPU and RAM before crashing the box and/or emacs. 21:39:19 *drewc``* knows all about that :| 21:39:28 :set directory=/tmp 21:39:38 tells vim to put swap files in /tmp 21:40:21 jasom: well, for next time. I have TRAMP now set up to DTRT for that directory ... 21:40:48 Tumult [~nnscript@gdrpmi.208-53-158-116.dyn.lakeshoretel.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:01 no, emacs --daemon on my local box, and dns@foo.bar.baz 21:41:02 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:42:06 actually my root .vimrc has directory set to /root/vimswap 21:42:12 *jasom* just looked 21:42:29 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:53 drewc``: never happened to me 21:43:02 -!- Tumult [~nnscript@gdrpmi.208-53-158-116.dyn.lakeshoretel.com] has left #lisp 21:44:49 fe[nl]ix: it happened to me a few times, unfortunatly. The first time was ssh -X and a gtk client ... gtk + emacs is buggy when remote X emacs is run. 21:44:53 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:45:12 *drewc``* stopped using gtk emacs after that 21:46:16 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:46:30 masondesu [~textual@adsl-98-71-141-142.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:57 while i'm using slime a global list in the code keeps growing unless i restart emacs, so... how do i create a new zero length list in my code that doesn't retain artifacts like that ? 21:48:20 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-141-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:08 i mean when i "load" the file multiple times the list keeps growing 21:49:16 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:49:20 zophy: (setf *list* nil) ? <--- or I am not sure what you are getting at. 21:50:17 zophy: Whatt's the code setting it up? 21:50:25 (defvar *dtd-data-list* '()) 21:50:33 so the loading is growing the list ... so you probably should not have that list growing when LOAD'ing, which means that the code you are LOAD'ing is not quite right? 21:51:07 switch to defparameter? 21:52:06 zophy: that DEFVAR is not at all growing the list... in fact it only runs once ... what is growing the list? 21:52:10 defvar won't reassign it to nil if it exists, so if you have like (defvar *foo* nil) (push 'bar *foo*) it'll push a new bar every time 21:52:42 if you have defparameter it'll be reset to null when you load. 21:53:20 *drewc``* agrees with what Bike is saying 100%, that is what DEFPARAMETER is for after all. 21:53:30 -!- drewc`` is now known as drewc 21:53:53 course if it takes time to calculate the list to add each time, maybe it would be better to wrap an (unless (boundp '*dtd-data-list*) ...) around the code that fills the list, so it only happens once 21:54:01 yes, i knew it something like that 21:55:44 "defparameter unconditionally assigns the initial-value to the dynamic variable named name. defvar, by contrast, assigns initial-value (if supplied) to the dynamic variable named name only if name is not already bound." 21:56:01 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:08 Does anyone know if there is a way to get the return value from a thread when you call bordeaux-threads:join ? 21:56:54 is destructuring bind on a FLOOR slow in SBCL? 21:57:12 Qworkescence: you mean multiple value bind? 21:57:16 yes sorry 21:57:33 Heads up for those advising me to try PyPy to make reposurgeon faster: it *pessimizes*. It's *slower*. Looks like I might be translating to CL after all. 21:57:33 on machine ints 21:58:08 zophy: so if you have (defvar *dtd-data-list* nil) (set-up-dtds) you could change that to (defparameter *dtd-data-list* nil) (set-up-dtds) to make it redo it every load, or (defvar *dtd-data-list* nil) (unless (boundp '*dtd-data-list*) (set-up-dtds)) to do it once. 21:58:54 Qworkescence: seems a bit doubtful given how important a operation it is 21:59:01 i agree 21:59:24 haha -- that's too bad esr 21:59:47 what are you doing? 21:59:53 PuffTheMagic: if you use a recent enough version of LW and bordeaux-threads, you ought to have that 21:59:55 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:00:08 whartung: I'm really rather shocked. PyPy has a good rep. 22:00:25 Bike: Was that question for me? 22:00:26 It's certainly not intuitive, isn't it. 22:00:41 no, for qworkescence, i don't know about python. 22:01:34 Bike: You should, it's actually a pretty decent ersatz Lisp if you ignore the syntax. :-) 22:01:54 I mean, I can program in it, but I'm certainly not good enough to advise on performance or nuthin. 22:02:05 Bike: Ahh. 22:02:18 fe[nl]ix: when I printed the return from join all I got was t, i dont see anything in either the bordeaux-threads or the lw process-join docs that mention multiple values 22:02:28 I donated my two ancient (1.5.x) python books to Good Will this weekend... 22:02:29 other than that i've heard pypy is faster than cpython, so... that's a bit weird! 22:03:09 *Qworkescence* is on a quest to find out why some simple loops perform an order of magnitude slower than in a compiled BASIC program. 22:03:16 PuffTheMagic: try (mp:process-join (mp:process-run-function "foo" nil (lambda () (values 0 1)))) 22:03:38 it's clear that whatever reposurgeon is doing, clearly it's not optimized by the pypy compiler. It's likely relying on the same underlying runtime as the original python (not that I actually know anything about pypy) 22:04:07 fe[nl]ix: just get T 22:04:08 Bike: reposurgeon is 8KLOC of high algorithmic density and lots of string-bashing. The PyPy page on JIT-friendliness hints that code complexity tends to boggle PyPy. 22:04:10 Qworkescence: the disassembly's the place to start, surely 22:04:33 -!- sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:49 antgreen [~green@64.56.247.247] has joined #lisp 22:05:09 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 22:05:12 The game for that ear is solving the "string bashing" performance issues early before doing a full boar port to CL. 22:05:18 kslt1 [~karl.sier@netblock-72-25-110-30.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:28 as the results may well affect how you write your code. 22:05:47 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:05:51 PuffTheMagic: on what version ? 22:05:56 6.1 22:06:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:02 s/ear/esr/ curse autocorrect 22:06:17 You'd think I'd turn it off -- but I think it's still more of a boon than curse, even in irc. 22:06:25 then it means LW doesn't capture the return values 22:06:36 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:59 drewc: using defparameter cured the problem, but the problem only occured when using slime, when running "sbcl --script file.lisp" in a terminal there was no artifact effect where the list was persistent between multiple 'loadings' 22:07:11 whartung: Easy to say, not so easy to do.... 22:07:47 zophy: well if you're restarting sbcl each time... 22:07:47 so i percieve i am neither an lisp nor an slime expert 22:07:48 no, but it's a focused task you can do early. However much string bashing they're doing, in the end it's likely only a couple of operations done over and over and over. 22:08:04 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:08:09 Bike: exactly 22:08:11 zophy: so, whay you are saying is that restarted SBCL restarts SBCL? odd. 22:08:13 so you can focus on optimizing those use cases and get Big winz! 22:08:29 s/whay/what 22:08:51 zophy: whereas with slime, it's like running (load "file.lisp") in one sbcl instance, multiple times. 22:08:59 whartung: Maybe. It would help if yje Python profilers I have access to had better reporting granularity. In the past I've found them rather weak. 22:09:08 slime doesn't emulate sbcl in a terminal i percieve 22:09:35 Bike: exactly i guess 22:10:06 zophy: yes, the point of slime is that you're communicating with a persistent lisp instance. and that's why you can do things like hook up to a lisp runtime on another computer. 22:10:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:05 -!- sdemarre [~serge@125.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:21 wharung: Actually, on sufficiently large repos half the runtime is eaten by one single phase which I suspect is irreducibly O(n**2). Bummer. 22:11:28 tanks for the convo 22:11:34 zophy: Lisp has these 'images' where the instance is long running ... and loading a file that eats memory over and over again will do exactly what it does ... eat the memory. 22:11:56 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:12:03 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:12:46 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:43 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:08 esr: there's probably ways to higly optimize string bashing in lisp. Notice how most string and sequence functions take :start :end parameters, and displaced arrays. But you must be careful that in most CL implementations, characters are unicode characters (not even code-points in a number of implementations!), and therefore we are talking of real strings of characters (32-bit each usually), not vector of utf-8 bytes. 22:15:55 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.248.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:16:02 (For some things, you may need to deal with vectors of bytes instead of strings, and there, lisp macros and reader macros can come handy to ease manipulations of those vectors of bytes that usually represent ASCII or UTF-8 encoded characters). 22:16:55 pjb: how's that possible? Some far-east "characters" will consist of multiple code points, with up to 6 or 7 "modifier" code points; how can all that fit into 32-bits, if each code point is 21-bit in itself? 22:17:34 ehu: that's what I mean, some implementation may choose to represent those characters as a pointer to a sequence of code points. 22:17:48 ah. ok. that's what you mean. ok. thanks! 22:18:09 Anyways, this represents much more processing that just a utf-8 byte sequence. 22:18:13 (actually, do you know of any real implementations which do that?) 22:19:00 I don't know. I remember this is an implementation choice that has been discussed, perhaps it wasn't implemented. 22:19:45 mehwork [~mehwork@cpe-50-113-83-215.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:35 using recursion, how would i figure out how many combinations of 5 and 3 fit evenly into the number 1067? 22:21:11 *ehu* goes to record that option in the ABCL Trac issue about implementing true Unicode characters 22:21:15 Basically, you take either 5 or 3, and recursively count the number of combination that fit evenly into the result number. 22:21:54 pjb yeah, but i'm not sure how to go about it exactly. Im' trying to use modulus but not quit getting it 22:22:15 maybe modulous isn't right 22:22:28 i was just thinking of it in terms of divisibility rules 22:22:43 mehwork: (defun c (n) (+ (if (can-take n 5) (c (take n 5)) 0) (if (can-take n 3)) (c (take n 3)) 0)) 22:22:47 mg__ [~mg___@86-46-240-158-dynamic.b-ras1.pgs.portlaoise.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:23:09 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 22:23:10 i'll study that a while, thanks 22:23:11 Oops, the base case is not complete. 22:23:45 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 22:23:55 Perhaps: (defun c (n) (+ (if (can-take n 5) (c (take n 5)) 1) (if (can-take n 3) (c (take n 3)) 1))) 22:23:57 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7168bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 22:24:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:34 mehwork: how do you fit 5 evenly into 1067? 22:24:35 does FLOOR not do ? 22:24:46 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 22:24:47 Depends on what is meant. 22:24:55 I guess it is not recursive. 22:24:58 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:25:11 and of course, 3+3+5 = 11 22:25:39 5+5+3 = 13 ... 22:25:44 primes! 22:25:50 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:15 yeah, i also need 67 = 5*8+3*9 22:26:31 prime! :) 22:26:38 thanks for the hint 22:26:40 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:55 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.153.123.154] has joined #lisp 22:32:50 pjb: That'a worry I don't have. The repo contents can be treated as uninterpreted byte strings, in general; I don't have to deal with arbitrary "characters" that might be Unicode glyphs. 22:33:15 so ASCII is AOK esr? 22:34:01 whartung: It's more that if it's not ASCII it's not my problem - I just pass it through. 22:35:13 but see, that's my point. 22:35:33 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:35:40 get your few idioms you need (STRING->ASCII-BYTE-VECTOR) etc. up front 22:35:42 then go with it. 22:35:53 write a half dozen macros or support forms 22:35:56 then Let Fly. 22:36:13 whartung: Interesting. 22:36:26 esr: people tell me I'm evil when I do this, but when I need to mix arbitrary ASCII and bytes I'm just passing-through, I just use code-char/char-code to encode/decode from a byte-stream 22:36:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:00 -!- clog_ [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Quit: ^C] 22:37:10 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 22:37:28 -!- mg__ [~mg___@86-46-240-158-dynamic.b-ras1.pgs.portlaoise.eircom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:27 but that's what I meant, do some exploration up front, attacking the performance issue you know you're going to experience as it can have a direct impact on all of the rest of your code, rather than not "pre-optimizing" 22:39:58 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:40:11 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@193.180.174.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:34 whartung: Oh, I'm doing that now on the Python side. Flattening out every algorithmic-complixity spike I can find before I translate. 22:41:25 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:41:55 drmeister [~drmeister@173.59.25.70] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 -!- stat_vi_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-000-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:43:25 whartung: I know compilation isn't likely to be good for more than a constant-factor speed boost, so it behooves me to get all the stength reduction I can done first. 22:43:52 s/stength/strength/ 22:44:15 Gad I need a profiler that sucks less. 22:44:21 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:44:45 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:11 well the game is that the more "primitives" you use, the better chance the compiler has to optimize it, right? You just have to assume that the library functions themselves are "efficient enough", but if you have to use, say, byte vectors rather than "strings", your library may dramatically shrink and you get to write your own -- so that means more code using more primitives with SPEED 3 SAFETY 0, type declarations, etc. 22:45:50 what kind of bashing does it do to strings? 22:46:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:51 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:54 perhaps you can write some zero copy array slicing code and maybe a new search function, and hope they don't use ragex :) 22:47:27 Mainly parsing stuff out of a git import-stream ans turning it into a sequences of objects designed so surgery on them is easy, then at output time doing the opposite. 22:47:40 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:47:46 lots of marshaling both ways 22:47:51 Exactly. 22:48:31 well, for example, you may be able to work better with just structs rather than CLOS instances 22:48:36 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c2cd8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:49 The good thing is the surgical operations don't have to care about issues like encoding. 22:49:07 That's be nice. I don't like CLOS. 22:50:09 That's ok. CLOS will let you print structs anyway. 22:50:15 :) 22:51:12 yea, I dunno if make-struct-thing is any faster than create-instance, or if generic function dispatch is any faster one way or the other (if you even use GFs for this) 22:52:35 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:29 well make-instance has to go through a lot of dispatching, as do gfs 22:55:55 Bike: there's also a lot of opportunities for caching in common cases. Known class and keyword arguments, for one. 22:56:36 is it enough to beat make-struct-thing? 22:56:38 it's also a question whether that's really a point of contention and performance in the final system -- who knows. 22:56:55 Bike: no, but the difference may be much smaller than you expect. 22:57:01 neat. 22:57:15 depending on the implementation  :) 22:57:54 but I can bet during the marshaling, you can get better gains by not copying data as much as anything else 22:58:11 if that'll work 22:59:21 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:44 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:00:16 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:04 -!- natechan [~natechan@50.192.61.46] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:05:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:03 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@92.40.254.79.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:22 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 23:06:42 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-tyxibxesfaawsxwh] has joined #lisp 23:06:51 mutley89 [~mutley89@92.40.254.79.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:06:54 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:07:58 esr: ok, so you don't want to use STRING and CHARACTER, but (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8), in general. 23:08:40 If you were careless and read data as text streams, you'd get CHARACTERs, and in most implementation 4x the memory usage and unicode decoding slow down. 23:10:43 sellout- [~Adium@98.245.92.119] has joined #lisp 23:11:17 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:12:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:12:58 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:07 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:16:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:18:50 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.98] has joined #lisp 23:20:00 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.98] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:13 pjb: and the Unicode encoding validity checking. 23:20:26 (which is even worse on generic byte input streams) 23:21:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:45 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-hdrbjhwoaywrnavf] has quit [Quit: san andreas segfault] 23:25:02 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.199.37.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:25:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.208] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:25:55 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abor7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:26:39 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:27:22 -!- lispyone [~lispyone@96.31.214.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:18 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:59 lispyone [~lispyone@96.31.214.247] has joined #lisp 23:30:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:31:50 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:33:41 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00341b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:39:07 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 23:40:43 -!- ase [~ase@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:04 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:44:04 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:19 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:46:41 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:46:45 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:47:30 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:46 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 23:55:14 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:50 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 23:59:29 dnolen [~user@rrcs-208-105-4-254.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp