00:00:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:00:18 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 00:00:37 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:01 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:03:43 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:44 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:23 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@145.147.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:14 cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:53 -!- cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:09:39 sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.243.125] has joined #lisp 00:09:42 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:12:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:18:04 -!- davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:20 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host30.181-1-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:20 davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has joined #lisp 00:18:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@173.7.54.165] has quit [] 00:20:13 k0001 [~k0001@host183.200-82-56.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:21:41 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:23:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:24:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:26:48 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:28:22 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:29:45 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF503ED.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:08 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:31:40 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF503AB.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:31:56 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d817803.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: The best way to predict the future is to build it.] 00:35:13 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:35:55 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:37:29 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:41:04 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:42:42 agumonkeat [~agu@65.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:46 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:43:16 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:24 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 00:46:46 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:48:01 normanrichards [~normanric@173.227.88.18] has joined #lisp 00:48:45 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:49:03 ASau` [~user@46.115.92.83] has joined #lisp 00:50:17 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:50:29 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:51:34 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:51:49 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:17 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.76.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:53:21 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:55:29 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.133.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:57:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:57:52 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.133.230] has joined #lisp 00:59:02 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:11 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:59:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:00:38 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 01:03:04 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:03:15 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 01:06:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:29 Guest23938 [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 01:10:58 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:11:13 -!- Guest23938 is now known as cfy 01:11:14 -!- cfy [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has quit [Changing host] 01:11:14 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:13:15 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:14 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:19:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:21:05 zajn_ [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:38 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:10 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:25:07 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF5048F.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:28 Fare: is the asdf 2.31.2 supposed to work on ccl 1.8? I have a case where it can find a system on sbcl but fails to find the system on ccl; this is with all init files turned off and just a (load "asdf.lisp") (asdf:find-system :iolib) 01:26:35 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:53 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF503ED.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:27:32 While reading the ECL source code I discovered how they handle functions returning multiple values. 01:27:57 There is a single array in the environment called VALUES[x] that you put the values to be returned into. 01:28:17 Is that all it takes, one array to store the return values? 01:28:30 drmeister: for single-threaded-code, yes 01:28:39 cades [~mac@59-124-92-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:53 oh, in the environment 01:28:54 I was totally overthinking it. I created a MultipleValues class and allocate it on the stack, return it and then interogate it and destruct it. What a waste of time. 01:29:13 I think some implementations optimize away the multiple returns when they detect they're not going to be used. 01:29:30 if you have (multiple-value-call #'+ (values 1 2) (values 3 4)) still working, I don't see why not 01:29:31 Sounds great. 01:29:44 drmeister: also if you don't need C interop (I know you need C++ interop, but for other implementations than yours) you can often use spare registers for return values 01:30:13 svr4 PowerPC has something like 8 registers that the platform ABI doesn't guarantee will be preserved across function calls, for example. 01:30:14 Jasom: You said "oh, in the environment" that leads to another question, there is a separate environment for each thread correct? 01:30:30 drmeister: not defined by lisp 01:30:57 jasom, yes, it's working well for me. Last ccl-specific change was 2.31.5, but that was about deferred warnings 01:31:14 before that, it was 2.29.2 01:31:21 drmeister: the spec makes no mention of threads, so that's up to you. I would guess ECL has a separate environment for each thread if that's how they implement values 01:31:26 Bike - good point. I'll make sure that works before I switch from my current approach. 01:31:52 jasom: how have you configured ASDF to specify where to find iolib ? 01:32:13 drmeister: you can do that easily with a single array if you have m-v-c collect all the values first and then append them together, like a simple evaluator would, i guess 01:32:15 (:tree "/export/jmiller/home/src/lisp") 01:32:21 jasom: I'd have to figure out how to do that with LLVM. I'm not sure how to access registers using LLVM. 01:32:22 that's in projects.conf 01:32:46 what's projects.conf ? 01:32:54 jasom, what does (describe (asdf:find-system :iolib)) and/or (system-source-directory :iolib) tell you? 01:33:17 drmeister: llvm has multiple-return-value semantics in the IR 01:34:25 jasom: Yes, I've seen them but I need something that works with my interpreter as well. I wasn't sure how to integrate llvm multiple value return with my interpreted code. 01:35:43 Fare: it just errors on ccl, but I can paste what it does on sbcl... 01:36:36 what's the backtrace on ccl? what's (asdf::flatten-source-registry) ? 01:37:06 v_ [~v@216.24.198.105] has joined #lisp 01:37:11 Fare: ((#P"/export/jmiller/home/src/lisp/" :RECURSE T :EXCLUDE (".bzr" ".cdv" ".git" ".hg" ".pc" ".svn" "CVS" "RCS" "SCCS" "_darcs" "_sgbak" "autom4te.cache" "cover_db" "_build" "debian")) (#P"/export/jmiller/home/.local/share/common-lisp/systems/" :RECURSE NIL :EXCLUDE NIL) (#P"/export/jmiller/home/.local/share/common-lisp/source/" :RECURSE T :EXCLUDE (".bzr" ".cdv" ".git" ".hg" ".pc" ".svn" "CVS" "RCS" "SCCS" "_darcs" "_sgbak" "autom4te.cache" " 01:37:31 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:38:20 I have iolib symlinked into $HOME/src/lisp/ 01:38:58 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF5048F.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:38:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135828#1 <-- backtrace 01:39:52 hmm maybe it's symlinks; I'll try with a copy or a bind mount 01:40:18 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:40:40 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:44 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:41:56 yup, it was the symlinks 01:42:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:44 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF504A1.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:00 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:36 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:36 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 01:49:44 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:58 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest156 01:50:10 Not that it matters anymore but I allocate my MultipleValues object on the HEAP, not the stack. 01:50:30 sounds slow 01:50:52 Slow, yes. But I just learned a better way. 01:51:29 -!- v_ [~v@216.24.198.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:56 -!- zajn_ [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:56 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:52:22 jasom: symlinks within a :tree ? you mean, directories being symlinked or .asd's being symlinked? 01:53:21 dealing with symlinks and truenames, etc., is a horrible headache, especially portably 01:53:26 drmeister: the movitz paper has interesting bits about the multiple value calling convention 01:53:36 drmeister: but that's at the x86 register level 01:53:45 -!- Guest156 [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:53:45 Fare: directories being symlinked 01:54:26 yeah, unhappily, I don't know how to deal with them in a portable way. 01:54:51 Xach: Do you have a reference for the movitz paper? I've never seen it. 01:55:04 I could enable symlink resolution while recursing through a :tree, but that would make tree recursion *way* more expensive. 01:55:27 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 01:57:56 hi Fare. 01:58:07 drmeister: http://munin.uit.no/bitstream/handle/10037/371/report.pdf - section 2.5 is the function result protocol 02:00:01 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01:00 k0001_ [~k0001@host150.186-109-182.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:04:18 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host183.200-82-56.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:04:21 v_ [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 02:11:40 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:21 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:39 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:00 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:20 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:14 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:05 Xach: Thanks! 02:18:00 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:20:38 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:45 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:23:47 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:50 sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:42 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:27:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:14 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 02:32:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:34:55 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:35:24 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 02:35:49 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:36:29 bubo [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 02:36:48 -!- bubo is now known as Guest50793 02:42:09 joooooo [setmeaway3@118.45.149.65] has joined #lisp 02:42:30 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 02:42:35 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:21 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:41 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 02:44:06 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest34800 02:44:16 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 02:44:56 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@pD9F98322.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:46:46 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0363.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:48:06 -!- Guest34800 [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:48:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@173.227.88.18] has quit [] 02:54:54 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:39 antgreen [~green@207.112.118.212] has joined #lisp 03:02:06 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.133.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:02:41 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:47 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:35 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:30 Guest11591 [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 03:13:46 -!- Guest11591 [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:54 antgreen_ [~green@64.56.225.109] has joined #lisp 03:15:25 -!- antgreen [~green@207.112.118.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:21:17 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:03 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:24:19 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:25:53 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:27:00 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:16 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.210] has joined #lisp 03:34:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:36:46 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:13 Is there any information regarding registration to attend ELS in June? 03:37:28 Can't see anything obvious on the website 03:37:44 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:37:53 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 03:38:17 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest51678 03:40:18 -!- agumonkeat [~agu@65.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:42:36 -!- Guest51678 [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:42:57 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:23 daniel [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:27 -!- daniel is now known as Guest57520 03:43:48 Gues_____ [~textual@cpe-72-229-63-216.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:14 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 03:55:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:26 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:41 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:03 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01:28 -!- antgreen_ is now known as antgreen 04:03:48 -!- Euthy` [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:03:52 lispghost [~user@222.67.109.237] has joined #lisp 04:04:37 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:05:00 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdonvdavctmyfnrx] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:05:25 -!- SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-akglfgcxmxtaupuw] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:06 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-layzugvfnjxybrrx] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:06 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wwolyctqpemixfud] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:14 -!- clintm [uid1741@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iuiakutaqkdqhupd] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:06:14 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:06:16 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ppkhatzkuzhplrwu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:21 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xlmxjfhamcfkqpvl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:06:42 -!- Gurragchaa [uid6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rpthrbykptmyebzz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:07:44 -!- nirman [uid10221@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjwbtxvdrnhfsdqj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10:54 -!- Gues_____ [~textual@cpe-72-229-63-216.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:11:18 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 04:11:34 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:51 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:15:20 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:58 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 04:20:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.140] has joined #lisp 04:20:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.140] has quit [Changing host] 04:20:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:21:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:54 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:25:01 -!- shifty` [~user@114-198-34-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:50 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:26:09 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:29:07 The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:52 hey guys, is there an easy way to match up the following - say I have a list of values like '(1 2 3) and I want to set another list, say '(x y z) to those same values 04:30:00 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 04:30:20 but I dont want to do (setf x (first vals) y (second vals) z (third vals)) 04:30:50 gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:57 clhs: copy-list 04:32:05 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 04:32:10 You have a list of places? 04:35:07 well, what I want to use it for is this macro 04:35:08 http://sprunge.us/PhUB 04:35:49 Basically, I want to call it with something like, (mad-adder add-item item *items* id price quantity) 04:36:04 and in that case, "item" is actually a class object with the slots id, price and quantity 04:36:15 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:25 then, I would call (add-item '(42 9.99 5)) 04:36:53 Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:36:58 Obviously if it could be reduced to (mad-adder item other-fields), that would be even better 04:37:26 Your code is confused. Try ,@(loop for var in varlist collect `(setf ,var (pop obj))? 04:37:45 Yea sorry it is really bad 04:37:59 -!- Calyce [~Calyce@109.89.136.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:38:00 trying to force myself to muddle through it, finished pcl but Ive got a long way to go 04:38:05 I mean, if you do that your problem shouldn't arise. 04:38:30 so, the ,@ works with things other than &rest / &body fields, and tells it just drop the code directly in to that area? 04:38:39 It splices, yeah. 04:38:50 `(4 ,@(list 5 6) 7) => (4 5 6 7) 04:39:08 So you'd be splicing in the setf forms. 04:39:12 oh awesome 04:40:15 The expansion would look something like... (defun add-item (obj) (let ((item (make-instance 'item))) (with-slots (id price quantity) item (setf id (pop obj)) (setf price (pop obj)) (setf quantity (pop obj)) (push obj *items*)))) 04:42:05 er, (push item *items*). 04:42:12 momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.74] has joined #lisp 04:42:42 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:25 compiles fine now but its just sending up a nil when calling the resultant (add-item '(1 2 3)) 04:43:39 What's the expansion? 04:44:31 oh crap 04:44:35 I see, I am doing a push on obj 04:44:41 which I am popping all the data off of 04:44:51 Aha, so it wasn't just my error :) 04:44:54 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:09 haha not at all, I was just hoping to lean on you some more 04:45:33 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:46:08 is there a good way to take the raw name passed in, like "item" and add the stars around it? so it would become *items*? Would *,@items* work? 04:46:09 stardiviner [~Instantbi@115.197.245.66] has joined #lisp 04:46:19 or do I have to do some intern / concatenate calls 04:46:19 So just replace that with (push ,name ,place) 04:46:20 xchat [~xchat@61.135.169.73] has joined #lisp 04:46:24 You'd have to intern, yeah. 04:46:33 And it's usually considered bad style to make symbols like that. 04:46:47 ahh 04:46:50 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 04:47:01 (plus you'd have to have the expansion do the defvar itself, bla bla bla) 04:48:01 Consider (with-item item ...) instead. 04:48:41 This little program is actually for a browser based js / lisp game I'm putting together, so I'll be having a lot of nearly identical class definitions and add-something functions to go with it that just map to the database tables column structure 04:49:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:49:17 I wrote the non-macroed first version for the units, then realized the abilities table was going to map the exact same way 04:49:40 I guess its not a huge deal to call (mad-adder with 2 more words in the initial call 04:49:48 still a lot cleaner than writing that whole (defun add-something block each time 04:50:12 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:50:48 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:21 if i am under a (in-package.. and split the macro code into a thing called macros.lisp, and then run (load "macros.lisp") in the main lisp file, will it retain the package 04:51:47 or do I need to do another (in-package :my.package) at the start 04:51:53 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:00 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:55:41 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 04:57:13 -!- xchat [~xchat@61.135.169.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:43 -!- Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:35 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:04:10 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:04:45 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:05:43 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:06:19 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:07:38 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:08:13 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:09:08 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:09:30 -!- stardiviner [~Instantbi@115.197.245.66] has quit [Quit: Instantbird 1.3 -- http://www.instantbird.com] 05:09:43 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:09:51 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 05:10:01 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b yacks!*@* 05:10:03 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 05:13:33 Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:16:47 -!- v_ [~v@199.68.198.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:25 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:03 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:30 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:25:29 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:25:43 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:02 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.227.55.6] has joined #lisp 05:26:13 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 05:27:39 Guest65142 [~ruben@pool-71-108-81-71.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:13 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 05:30:14 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:20 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.174.188] has joined #lisp 05:33:32 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 05:35:31 v_ [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 05:35:44 -!- momo-reina [~user@110.50.241.74] has left #lisp 05:39:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:41:08 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:46:10 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-muszvnimusnzjhvt] has joined #lisp 05:48:11 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:48:59 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:49:12 clintm [uid1741@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vjjylzdcklnnfwno] has joined #lisp 05:50:46 -!- Guest57520 [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:53:12 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rynwkxfrlwodefjc] has joined #lisp 05:55:14 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rywacbstheuvcfji] has joined #lisp 05:55:55 -!- Guest50793 [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:57:55 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcdlywoofaqikmur] has joined #lisp 05:58:09 SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wrsupbxcehntmots] has joined #lisp 06:00:45 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dkxkikgcqvcicype] has joined #lisp 06:02:50 Gurragchaa [uid6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hohywruaodrkxgin] has joined #lisp 06:03:09 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 06:04:12 nirman [uid10221@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vjkskngmrqowvnno] has joined #lisp 06:08:34 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gqrhammojjwysxxj] has joined #lisp 06:08:34 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gqrhammojjwysxxj] has quit [Changing host] 06:08:34 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:10:25 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:14:31 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 06:15:19 -!- waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:20:20 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 06:20:30 teggi [~teggi@113.172.36.152] has joined #lisp 06:23:12 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:33 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:24:57 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:25:01 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:25:32 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:25:42 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:25:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:26:09 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:46 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:29:35 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.227.55.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:49 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 06:35:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.249.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:35:09 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:20 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:26 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:38:50 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:31 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:10 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:41:51 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:42:10 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 06:43:21 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 06:43:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 06:43:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:43:57 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-137-168-140.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:13 anaumov [~an@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 06:44:57 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:45:45 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:47:06 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-168-140.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:47:12 -!- jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 06:48:14 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:36 samm [~samm@212.91.105.200] has joined #lisp 06:50:57 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:54:20 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 06:54:25 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.9.136.126] has joined #lisp 07:01:54 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-137-168-140.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:54 agumonkeat [~agu@65.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:14 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-137-168-140.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:21 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:11 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:15 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:10:01 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:11:16 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.9.136.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:11:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:12:19 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:14:31 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.24] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.24] has quit [Changing host] 07:14:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:16:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:52 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:18:56 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has joined #lisp 07:19:20 keep [~yamhih@113.96.118.235] has joined #lisp 07:23:45 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.92.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:24:00 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-225-136.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:32 shifty [~user@114-198-34-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:26:15 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:28:19 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 07:30:02 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:30:02 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:30:02 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:30:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.24] has joined #lisp 07:30:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.24] has quit [Changing host] 07:30:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:30:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:44 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:57 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:37:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-5-72.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 -!- p_nathan [~vlion@98.145.116.195] has left #lisp 07:43:28 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 07:48:12 -!- samm [~samm@212.91.105.200] has quit [Quit: samm] 07:50:30 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:03 samm [~samm@212.91.105.200] has joined #lisp 07:51:20 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 07:52:18 ;good morning! 07:52:37 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:46 -!- Guest65142 [~ruben@pool-71-108-81-71.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:55:20 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.243.125] has left #lisp 08:00:49 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:01:47 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:03:46 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:71b6:9541:595b:a04b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:04:11 hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:11 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host150.186-109-182.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:04:15 ehu [~ehu@109.37.211.84] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 Ralt [~Ralt@ip1.smh.prowebce.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:25 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:53 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:08:39 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 08:12:36 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 08:13:18 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:13:53 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:16:36 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:18:23 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 08:21:18 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:23:18 -!- MoALTz__ is now known as MoALTz 08:24:36 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:26:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:26:08 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:19 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:30:42 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-021-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:03 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF507A6.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:05 peterhil` [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 08:32:50 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF504A1.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:33:23 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 08:37:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-78-123.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:38:44 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.153.189] has joined #lisp 08:40:49 waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has joined #lisp 08:44:56 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:05 -!- samm [~samm@212.91.105.200] has quit [Quit: samm] 08:51:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:52:40 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:38 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:53:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:58:05 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:59:59 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.174.188] has left #lisp 09:01:48 -!- keep [~yamhih@113.96.118.235] has left #lisp 09:02:52 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 09:06:29 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:07:06 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:10:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:54 abeaumont [~abeaumont@24.178.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:13:21 -!- Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:21 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@ip1.smh.prowebce.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:15:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:17:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:29:01 Ralt [~Ralt@ip1.smh.prowebce.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:43 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:35:21 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:40:49 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@24.178.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:41:51 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.36.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:48 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:52:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1] 09:57:04 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 09:57:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:59:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:02:31 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:03:25 nha [~prefect@koln-5d816839.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:27 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.37.211.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:50 -!- Zhivago has set mode -b yacks!*@* 10:07:09 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 10:07:38 -!- tic [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:40 ehu [~ehu@109.37.211.84] has joined #lisp 10:10:46 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 10:12:55 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 10:13:19 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:16:39 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:40 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-34-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:17:59 nostoi [~nostoi@206.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:30 -!- ur5us_ [~ur5us@16.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:18:58 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:19:12 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:19:28 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:19:53 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:20:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:22:28 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-168-140.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:30 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@206.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:22:35 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:23:24 bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:20 mathrick [~mathrick@stud-133.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:24:58 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:25:00 nostoi [~nostoi@110.Red-88-27-66.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:15 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-27-152.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 10:28:51 -!- jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 10:32:56 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:15 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@189.61.220.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:36:25 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:36:27 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:40:49 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.174.188] has joined #lisp 10:41:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:41:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:43:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:43:17 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:45:00 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:28 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:47:30 -!- lispghost [~user@222.67.109.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:07 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 10:56:35 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:02:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:02:46 -!- v_ [~v@199.68.198.120] has quit [Quit: ] 11:04:30 -!- arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-27-152.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:04:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:06:40 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:07:35 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:08:09 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:09:12 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:25 zacts [~lcc@174-28-177-45.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:40 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:11:41 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:11:44 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:12:34 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:54 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:14:11 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:23 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.37.211.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:41 ehu [~ehu@109.37.211.84] has joined #lisp 11:21:11 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-47-232.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:57 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:23:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-5-72.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:23:13 -!- Beetny` is now known as Beetny 11:23:53 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:25:56 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@110.Red-88-27-66.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 11:29:14 -!- zacts [~lcc@174-28-177-45.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29:29 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-27-152.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 11:30:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:30:29 -!- arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-27-152.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:36 Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:40 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-27-152.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 11:30:53 -!- arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-27-152.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:35 zacts [~lcc@174-28-188-185.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:32:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:32:44 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:51 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 11:37:48 -!- cades [~mac@59-124-92-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:40:40 sepi [~user@mancini.lu] has joined #lisp 11:41:11 -!- sepi_ [jpjrgrr9ru@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:41:40 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:58 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF5098D.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:44 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF507A6.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:48:36 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:49:51 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 11:49:53 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:49:55 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-021-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:50:02 abeaumont [~abeaumont@24.178.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:50:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:52:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:54:58 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 -!- sepi [~user@mancini.lu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:21 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:57:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-47-232.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:13:00 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:14 alama [~jessealam@p57A7955A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:27 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 12:18:42 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.153.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:19:06 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.161.240] has joined #lisp 12:19:45 ehu` [~ehu@109.37.232.37] has joined #lisp 12:22:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.37.211.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:22:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:24:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:31:15 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0D39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:22 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:42 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:34:21 PauK [pauk@stdev.org] has joined #lisp 12:34:54 -!- PauK is now known as borodust 12:37:02 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:41:19 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:43:13 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-d7b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:00 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:45:05 SHODAN [~shozan@c-d7b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:51:01 justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 12:52:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:53 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 12:54:10 foeniks [~fevon@p5091FA68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:49 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 12:59:20 -!- ehu` [~ehu@109.37.232.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04:56 ehu [~ehu@109.37.232.37] has joined #lisp 13:05:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:06:15 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:06:26 skbierm_ [~sascha@p4FEA08A8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:03 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:35 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0D39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:26 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:12:28 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:16:10 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:18:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:20:07 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:24:46 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:25:58 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:48 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:30:09 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@24.178.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:31:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:31 madrik [~user@122.168.208.78] has joined #lisp 13:34:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:38:52 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:41:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:23 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091FA68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:06 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:19 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:49:33 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-13-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:51:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:52:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:53:55 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:21 -!- justinmcp [justinmcp@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:05 -!- esr [~chatzilla@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:09 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.226] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 <`26> I have a question not directly related to CL, but rather Lisp in general. Is there an obvious reason why objects (as in CLOS) should be allowed to have mutable fields? Also, what are some pros and cons of mutable cons? Finally, is forced pure functionality really worth it? 13:57:49 <`26> I've been tormented by such questions for a long time, it really sucks to be me. 13:58:34 `26: in classic object oriented programming, objects encapsulate state. slots in clos objects are mutable to support that model. 13:59:04 Well, mutability requires less brains in the implementation. 13:59:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:19 Look at the hoops that haskell jumps though for performance. 13:59:40 `26: and you're in a cl channel. cl is not a language that enforces pureness in any way, so if you're looking for pro-pureness voices, you may want to turn somewhere else 13:59:43 And then look at the economic constraints of historic lisp implementations. 13:59:57 <`26> Zhivago: Arguable. Mutability could be seen as introducing extra hazards that would prevent certain kinds of optimizations. 13:59:59 I think it is no accident that haskell is a relatively recent development. 14:00:12 Mutability shifts the burden upon the programmer. 14:00:29 And it does prevent certain optimizations. 14:00:49 But dealing with immutability efficiently is also an expensive challenge for the implementation. 14:00:53 <`26> H4ns: I'm not, I just want to be exposed to your wisdom. 14:01:00 <`26> (no sarcasm) 14:01:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:01:16 These days, I see no obstacle to purely functional lisps. 14:01:35 But 20 or 30 years ago? :) 14:02:38 My feeling is that mutability is fine, as long as the scope of mutation is easily constrained. 14:02:57 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:04 e.g., mutation upon local variables in a system that passes by value. 14:03:13 <`26> On the conceptual side of the question forced pure functionality question, what I see a lot in languages or environments that enforce pure functionality is that the programmer must resort to various hacks to emulate state when required. Hence my question, is it really worth it? 14:03:30 Zhivago: and with restricted funargs? 14:03:38 loke [~elias@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:04:13 Yeah. 14:04:13 <`26> pkhuong: To prevent using closures to get shared mutable state, you mean? 14:04:40 Encapsulating mutation in little processes, for example, with message passing between them. 14:05:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:00 bitonic [~user@dyn1218-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:07:06 is it allowed to post codes here? 14:07:16 dt770: use paste.lisp.org 14:07:17 <`26> http://paste.lisp.org/new 14:07:22 tanks 14:07:33 26: What problem do you want to solve with immutability? 14:07:34 Okay, new DB question. There seem to be four viable-looking options in quicklisp for working with sqlite... Which is the generally-recommended option, and why? 14:07:36 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:09:26 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:38 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:47 <`26> Zhivago: You're going to laugh at the first reason; (1) because I figured certain parts of code might be more easily optimizable, but I'm starting to think I might be very very wrong if what you said about Haskell is true, and (2) because the referential transparency, coupled with introspection, can make for some very interesting language features such as implementing a computer algebra system --- 14:09:51 <`26> --- directly in the language. 14:10:42 26: I didn't say that those hoops aren't worth jumping through. 14:11:03 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:03 <`26> Hence my dilemma. 14:11:05 26: Just that they were generally too expensive to consider when the extant lisp systems were being developed. 14:11:29 Referential transparency doesn't imply immutability. 14:11:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:46 Hi, so can somebody help me with this problem, i have posted my solution at here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135837 14:11:58 many many thanks 14:12:18 <`26> Immutability does imply referential transparency, and that's the direction of the implication I'm using. 14:12:24 Consider a procedure that implements an algorithm -- it is referentially transparent because it has no side-effects, but it can mutate the buggery out of itself internally. 14:12:42 Yeah, but if you care about referential transparency you can get it without immutability. 14:12:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:13:10 <`26> Zhivago: Absolutely. 14:13:19 dt770: what do you want to do? just dumping code and hoping for anaswer is well.. not useful. 14:13:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:13:35 So, I don't think those are compelling reasons for immutability. 14:13:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:13:56 Just for limiting the extend that state can propagate via mutation. 14:14:01 er, extent. 14:14:10 <`26> Another factor would be that it is simpler to implement a purely-functional Lisp subset given a non-purely-functional Lisp than the other way around. 14:14:18 i want to filter all the numbers in a list and sublists and as result it will return a list which displays either NIL or T 14:14:33 <`26> Zhivago: What would be compelling reasons for immutability? 14:14:53 k 14:14:53 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:15:17 I don't know of any compelling reasons for immutability. 14:15:52 <`26> Are you the Zhivago of the house of ##C? 14:16:14 dt770: consider cons instead of list/append 14:16:29 26: Well, freenode does not support per channel nicks ... 14:16:33 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:16:38 -!- alama [~jessealam@p57A7955A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:16:44 dt770: try using loop instead. 14:16:45 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 14:16:57 <`26> Zhivago: I haven't been around here for a while, you could have left and someone else could have taken your name I suppose. 14:17:04 <`26> Anyway, I'll take your word for it. 14:17:14 <`26> (as for the no compelling reasons for immutability) 14:17:20 <`26> *as to the 14:17:27 immutabiity is nice, when you need it. 14:17:38 mutability is nice, when you need it. 14:17:40 :-) 14:18:07 agumonke1t [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:08 I'd hate for fixnums to be mutable, or for objects to be immutable. 14:18:11 I like mutability in boxes sufficiently small that I can wrap my head around them. 14:18:25 s/objects/instances/ 14:18:37 mutable fixnums .. 14:18:48 i could actually use something like that 14:18:57 No. No, you couldn't. 14:18:57 I also think that immutability has some serious problems with distributed systems. 14:19:04 It'd be like setting the value of NIL to T. 14:19:07 nyef: actually, yeah i could :-) 14:19:20 -!- agumonkeat [~agu@65.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:19:25 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:19:42 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:44 zorkmoid: Do you really want a system where (+ 3 4) => 9 ? 14:19:54 <`26> Are mutable cons a good idea? I never could figure this one out. I never really needed to use them, and most of the time they would inhibit nice optimizations such as cdr coding. 14:19:57 Sounds like fortran to me. :) 14:20:09 typically when you want can ignore precious, where you could change 1000 into 1024 cause it is faster and other weirdo thingies 14:20:18 `26: CDR coding isn't a "nice" optimization, really. 14:20:30 Personally, I'd prefer there be cons and mutable-cons, distinctly. 14:20:59 Yeah, I could go for separate mutable and immutable conses. 14:21:09 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:14 <`26> nyef: Why not? It sounds like it can save a lot of space (and cache misses). 14:21:18 Mutable cons are a good idea if you remember that a cons block is really an edge in a graph that is also a vertex. 14:21:30 There are some cases where it's very useful to have mutable conses. 14:21:39 (cons 'a 'b) says that there is a relationship from a to b. 14:21:53 thanks, i solved that by using cons instead. 14:22:18 `26: Computational overhead on reading the CDR codes, the fact that lists aren't really heavily used as data structures these days, and so on. 14:22:33 (cons 'is-a (cons 'a 'b)) says that there is a relationship from is-a to a relationship from a to b, and so on. 14:24:23 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:24:30 Zhivago: i am not sure how you are reasoning ... 14:25:03 <`26> nyef: I'm not sure I'm convinced. Doing a bit of computation to deal with cdr coding is likely faster than waiting for cache misses (unless you have a magical GC that makes sure the conses of a list end up contiguous in memory, and even then you're wasting memory in the cdr pointer). 14:25:07 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:25:15 what relationship? the above is just a list .. (is-a a . b) to be exact, i don't see a relationship anywhere. 14:25:20 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:34 <`26> zorkmoid: if you look at it as a list, yeah, that's what it looks like. But it's described as a cons relation with 'is-a and a cons relation with 'a and 'b. 14:27:10 if you care that much about cache misses, why not just use vectors? 14:28:00 <`26> Thank you all by the way, your insights are invaluable. 14:28:12 26: Good luck. 14:28:21 newblue [~newblue@113.84.211.185] has joined #lisp 14:28:42 There's no real advantage to using cons cells if you're not going to mutate them. 14:28:56 Advantage over? 14:29:13 over vectors 14:29:26 -!- cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ] 14:29:33 There is if you're looking for more of a tree structure. 14:30:01 #(#(a b) #(a b)) 14:30:10 still works 14:30:11 Well, cons cells are vectors. 14:30:34 Hrm... And for that example, the memory cost is just about even... 14:31:31 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.208.78] has quit [Quit: ZZzz..] 14:33:46 <`26> One last silly thing. I would like to arbitrarily add tags to objects; for instance, I would like to add a tag 'derivative to '#sin with value #'cos. 14:34:15 `26: create a hash table and throw your tags in there 14:34:26 <`26> Two obvious ways of doing it are with some sort of tags that are actually attached to the objects and ignored unless directly accesses, or with a hash table. 14:34:43 `26: (the hash table being in a parameter) 14:34:46 <`26> *accessed 14:35:01 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:35:02 `26: what do you mean by "actually attached to the objects"? 14:35:20 `26: you mean changing the implemantation of "objects" and add a slot there? 14:35:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:38 like what is (i imagine) done in Clojure? 14:35:39 <`26> madnificent: You mean a global hash table that keys by (object, tagname), or a hash table that keys by tagname for every object? 14:36:24 however you're going to use it? 14:36:27 i'd imagine a hash table that maps from object to tag table 14:36:48 <`26> jdz: I... I meant as in a sort of (special-cons object tags) such that (func object) = object if and only if func is not special-car or special-cdr. 14:37:03 myx [~myx@pppoe-206-149-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 14:37:41 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:38:06 <`26> jdz: In a sense, I suppose. Some 'objects' don't really have slots, if you look at functions for instance. 14:38:47 *nyef* looks at a SIMPLE-FUN in SBCL, and notes that it actually DOES have slots. 14:38:54 `26: that's what i was questioning. the cost of adding a slot for function objects would be minimal, but for a CONS.... 14:39:14 <`26> jdz: Oh yes, I see your point. 14:39:49 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:40:05 <`26> I guess I'm just being silly. Functions can be treated as objects (as jdz kindly mentioned) and objects (in the CLOS-like sense) have slots anyway. And atoms don't need slots. 14:40:05 i actually had a metadata table like this, which was a weak eq hashtable 14:40:07 (And adding a new slot to a SIMPLE-FUN is apparently sufficiently nasty that it requires multiple warnings about how hard it is in the comments in various source files.) 14:40:25 `26: the symbol-plist is a similarish idea in cl, although it of course applies to symbols not objects 14:40:58 I also question the value of having a single slot for storing a function's derivative. What's the derivative of #'/, for example? 14:41:26 <`26> Oh shit. 14:41:27 Would it not be better to store a FUNCTION for computing the derivative given the source form? 14:42:20 <`26> nyef: Actually more than one function, since you have one derivative for every variable. 14:42:32 <`26> Or just return the jacobian :) 14:43:24 Anyway, now that I've poked a sufficient hole in your original proposed design, I'm going to get back to work. (-: 14:43:31 <`26> I guess I'm pretty much out of stupid questions. Thank you all, you've been enlightening. 14:43:36 <`26> *pretty much ran out 14:43:46 <`26> *I've 14:44:21 *`26* 's language part of the brain seems to be down for maintenance 14:44:22 Oh yeah, and symbols in SBCL don't have a symbol-function slot, SYMBOL-FUNCTION goes through an external (global) hash-table. 14:45:03 <`26> Right, of course. 14:46:36 hi all 14:46:47 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:50:30 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.174.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:52:06 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:53:08 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@183.37.246.100] has joined #lisp 14:53:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:56 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:08 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:56:15 -!- skbierm_ [~sascha@p4FEA08A8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:56:30 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@183.37.246.100] has joined #lisp 14:56:33 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-djzkvyytffyhcqyt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:56:42 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:43 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA03B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:29 Tordek [~tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ctebsnrqllrslvsa] has joined #lisp 14:57:36 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:09 -!- sabayonuser2 is now known as hyoung 14:59:32 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00:16 -!- newblue [~newblue@113.84.211.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:01:14 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA03B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:01:41 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA07E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:28 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:51 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-007-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:47 -!- zacts [~lcc@174-28-188-185.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:09:24 skbierm_ [~sascha@p4FEA0667.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:26 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA07E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:11:48 jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:11:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.208] has joined #lisp 15:20:31 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:29 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:42 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 15:25:00 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:25:49 splittist [d4b93d0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.61.12] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 morning 15:26:47 evening 15:27:04 or guten tag, as we say in Berlin 15:27:21 splittist: in which hotel did you end up? 15:27:33 dobriy vecher, as we say 15:27:55 Indigo just off Alexanderplatz (at least, for tonight). 15:28:11 splittist: sounds as if you don't like it? 15:28:27 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:09 H4ns: I meant I managed to get a room at the place my meetings were for last night, so I've just got the Indigo. Seems fine and funky. 15:29:21 s/got the/got to the/ 15:29:28 splittist: ok. got luck for the next nights :) 15:30:17 sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:41 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d816839.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:31:12 H4ns: Back home tomorrow. Pros - familiar bed; family. Cons - family includes 5 month old... (For getting a good night's rest...) Oblisp: ummm. 15:31:29 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 15:31:54 <`26> Pros - familiar bed; family. Cons - (car-part . cdr-part) 15:32:06 splittist: heh. on the up side, kids grow up fast. before you know it, you'll miss the days where they were babies :) 15:32:15 `26: (: 15:33:09 H4ns: already the 5 year old seems to be too independent (: 15:34:02 splittist: i got to beg my oldest to come see me once every other week for dinner. *sigh* 15:34:53 <`26> I haven't seen my parents in 3 months. 15:34:54 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:04 It's almost enough to make me be a better son to my parents... 15:35:05 <`26> In my defense, they live 200km away. 15:35:10 <`26> *defence (?) 15:35:36 <`26> splittist: almost, but not enough :) 15:36:01 pkkm [~pawel@eqx105.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:36:23 I assume this is how our AI's will treat us 15:37:44 *p_l* works on moving on the other side of the globe from his parents 15:38:20 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has quit [] 15:38:30 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:38:45 -!- skbierm_ [~sascha@p4FEA0667.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:38:45 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0603.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:32 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 15:41:11 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:11 stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has joined #lisp 15:41:32 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.174.188] has joined #lisp 15:41:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:43:25 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:afe0:7da9:6241:dce2:48e] has joined #lisp 15:44:02 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0603.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:33 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:48:21 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:afe0:7da9:6241:dce2:48e] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:48:48 p_l: where to ? 15:49:20 silicon valley 15:49:54 to the "not lispy company who nevertheless ended up with a CL-based product" 15:50:25 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA020C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:25 which company ? 15:50:41 Google 15:50:52 (not ITA part of it, though) 15:50:58 will know this week if I got in or not 15:53:31 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:31 Bike [~Glossina@71-34-78-123.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:41 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA020C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:44 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:58:52 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 15:59:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:59:59 -!- sabayonuser [~sabayonus@183.37.246.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:00 -!- hyoung [~sabayonus@183.37.246.100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:00 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 16:00:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:52 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 16:04:25 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has left #lisp 16:05:41 Quick tip: To find the public symbols of a known package, (APROPOS "" :package-name T) 16:06:28 MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:31 -!- agumonke1t is now known as agumontube 16:07:05 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 nyef: what implementation? 16:07:58 SBCL in this case, but should be standard behavior of APROPOS. 16:08:03 Should be, but isn't. 16:08:20 Standard APROPOS accepts only two args. 16:08:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:16 Ah, so I see. 16:09:26 On the other hand, you could do something with apropos-list... 16:09:54 Or there are the various DO-SYMBOLS functions. 16:10:04 DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS seems likely 16:10:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 daniel [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:45 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:11:54 -!- daniel is now known as Guest78110 16:13:29 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:16:33 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:18:15 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:20:34 abeaumont [~abeaumont@24.178.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:22:06 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:22 -!- borodust [pauk@stdev.org] has quit [Quit: borodust] 16:23:36 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA007C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:15 MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:27:46 sellout-1 [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:28:33 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:31:45 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:04 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 16:32:13 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA007C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:32:45 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:34:07 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:16 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0166.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:16 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 16:36:49 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5DC63594.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:58 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0166.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:43:29 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0175.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 -!- agumontube is now known as agumontea 16:46:31 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:13 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:57 k0001 [~k0001@host49.190-136-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:49:28 devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has joined #lisp 16:49:48 Hey 16:50:44 Typical. I'm running a version of SLIME old enough to default to LATIN-1 for encoding. /-: 16:51:56 hey 16:51:56 uniçøðë 16:52:10 <`26> nyef: that's nothing, mine defaults to EBCDIC 16:52:22 Mine defaults to 5-bit teletype 16:52:58 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:44 jasom: EBCDIC was more plausible, as I seem to recall that SBCL actually has EBCDIC external-format support. 16:54:09 <`26> wow 16:54:10 ... hackerspace warsaw actually has a 5bit teletype terminal, I think 16:54:15 For my report I was going to do an example of REPL code and an example of Compilable code, is this not a good example? I am trying to find out more about compiling lisp code and can't find anything 16:54:24 IM NOT SHOUTING IM JUST ON A TELETYPE 16:55:12 devin_: there are implementations of lisp that are only compiled (i.e. when you type something in the repl, it compiles and runs it) and there are implementations that are interpreted only. 16:55:49 clhs compile 16:55:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 16:55:58 Ah ok, so is there no implementations that offer both 16:56:11 devin_: no, most implementations offer both 16:56:35 devin_: whether something is compiled or not is usually not very visible outside of performance 16:56:46 clisp, for example compiles to byte-code; sbcl added an interpreter some time in the last 5 years or so. 16:56:49 devin_: ABCL offers both as do many others. 16:57:08 devin_: that is, not-compiled code won't have a disassembly, and usually has different type from compiled code 16:58:05 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0175.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:59:23 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:59:47 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA043F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:52 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:01:02 -!- Guest78110 [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02:33 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:52 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 17:05:03 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA043F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:32 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host49.190-136-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:18 k0001 [~k0001@host197.190-138-112.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 -!- devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has left #lisp 17:08:28 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:06 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-13-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:09:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:42 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.174.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:17 -!- agumontea [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:10:56 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:11:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:11:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:04 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:15:47 -!- chebastian [~chebastia@c-a771e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:16:03 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 17:19:26 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:57 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.37.232.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:26:54 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-236-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:31:00 ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.180] has joined #lisp 17:31:13 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:33:41 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-222-10.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:33:54 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:42:25 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-alwxyohrnjyvshft] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:49:22 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ubiiaravhmpbpmjz] has joined #lisp 17:50:28 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:53 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:51:27 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:52 -!- housel` is now known as housel 17:53:59 masondesu [~textual@ip-64-134-189-111.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:57:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:58:58 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|interview 17:59:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:00:07 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:01:29 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:13 ASau [~user@46.115.113.83] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:06:26 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557a2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:06:48 -!- reb` [user@nat/google/x-qcboltpkqfuwvjov] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:07:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:09:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:09:35 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF5098D.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:37 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:10 bitonic [~user@dyn1218-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:11:36 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF5098D.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:47 chebastian [~chebastia@c-a771e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:14:36 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:10 bitonic [~user@dyn1218-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:17:37 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.225.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:22:30 -!- jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:04 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 18:23:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:24:36 benny [~user@31.193.133.168] has joined #lisp 18:24:39 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-139-77-59.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:24:46 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@stud-133.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:25:24 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-198-213-225-213.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 18:25:48 dioxirane [~LacioDrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:26:38 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:27:55 nha [~prefect@koln-5d816839.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:05 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 18:28:13 subtlepath [walker@kindista.org] has joined #lisp 18:29:38 kennyd [kennyd@93-136-126-64.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:32:34 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1218-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:32:38 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:06 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:36:00 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:24 peterhil [~peterhil@91.157.48.10] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:37:10 daniel` [~user@ulsecure-belknap-25029.wireless.louisville.edu] has joined #lisp 18:40:01 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:28 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:36 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:58 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:16 milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 18:42:06 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:44:45 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 18:47:25 -!- masondesu [~textual@ip-64-134-189-111.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:48:25 -!- milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:48:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:43 sayara_ [~sayara3@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 18:50:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:57:01 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:57:22 -!- p_l|interview is now known as p_l 18:58:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00:11 -!- daniel` [~user@ulsecure-belknap-25029.wireless.louisville.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:00:14 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 19:00:24 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:26 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D798.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:49 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:08:43 nyef: I came here a bit late, but I agree with " DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS seems likely" ... or even "(with-package-iterator (n (list package) :external)" which seems to be what I have for "(defun package-external-symbols (package) ...)" 19:09:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:24 nyef: fwiw, the doc hack that does it 'all' for external symbols : https://github.com/drewc/drewc.org/blob/master/documentation.lisp 19:11:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:31 Summon [25c1f85d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.193.248.93] has joined #lisp 19:14:18 Hi everyone. I'm trying to setup slime with emacs andd sbcl on my gentoo. The problem at first was that sbcl fall in debugger during inferior-lisp loading with message knida "ASDF 2 is not compatible with ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS, which you are using." 19:14:24 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:14:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 19:14:29 I found that sbcl was built with asdf flag 19:14:44 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D798.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:57 so asdf was built in sbcl and thats was the problem 19:15:07 i rebuilt sbcl without that use flag 19:15:16 and now the problem looks line this 19:15:40 in swank-loader 19:15:49 asdf is not found 19:16:13 so the question is. Is it normal to add my code to system swank-loader.lisp of slime 19:16:37 (require :asdf) that is addede to swank-loader fixes the problem 19:17:07 And the other one. I don't understand why this problem happens and i don't like this solution ( 19:18:23 This is the point in our program where someone starts bashing distro-provided packages for lisp software in general, and gentoo in particular. 19:18:28 brown [user@nat/google/x-gpgvpdtdwnzculjq] has joined #lisp 19:18:52 -!- brown is now known as Guest54266 19:19:21 Oh, and point and laugh if your SBCL is more than two releases old, and your SLIME similarly aged. 19:20:37 you should figure out where you're using asdf-binary-locations (probably by accident?) and get rid of it. 19:20:38 nyef: gentoo keeps clozurecl up-to-date 19:20:56 oh yes, kill gentoo-init.lisp; kill it dead 19:22:06 Summon: If you are on gentoo, it "helpfully" installs a file called "gentoo-init.lisp" in /etc; sudo echo >/etc/gentoo-init.lisp should solve your problems 19:22:34 Summon: look at asdf manual >all you need to know is reported there< , build and rebuild sources - edit and reedit files ... from the solved errors came the joy :) 19:23:49 nyef: fwiw, I want to bash and laugh, but have not yet put my 'proper' instructions on my 'proper' common lisp website, so people still think that 'lisp is C' and linux packages are 'proper' :) 19:25:28 *jasom* wonders how often strings of approximately the form "The old repository is , it's a Darcs repository" appears on cliki 19:26:00 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 toekutr [~user@50.0.51.11] has joined #lisp 19:28:01 Odyessus [~odyessus@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:28:11 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-206-149-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Quit: ] 19:28:44 Nah.. It looks like i understood the idea of the problem. I can install version of sbcl with and without asdf use flag. When i do this with that use flag, it uses builtin asdf v2 and conflicts with gentoo-init.lisp. When i built without asdf use flag it tryes to use asdf to load swank before system asdf was required. So looks like i need to do it in sbclrc and it can be done with this gentoo-init.lisp. 19:29:21 Summon: if you want to be stuck on ASDF 1, I suppose that's fine 19:29:41 will quicklisp work with asdf-binary-locations? 19:30:16 Summon: there is also an overlay with newer lisp stuff 19:31:15 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:32:38 hi again drewc :) 19:33:07 slime is as new as prtage provides. ) I'm just kinda afraid that if i remove gentoo-init.lisp and use builtin asdf some packages from portage that use abcl and asdf1 woun't be built. And as i can assume this will happen at that time when i comletely forget about this hack with gentoo-init.lisp ( 19:33:12 dto: hey hey! :) 19:33:27 how are you 19:33:44 how is it that gentoo still uses a-b-l? 19:33:58 That's reaaaaaaally old by now. 19:34:16 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:31 foom: gentoo is 'old', unix is older, LISP is oldest! :P 19:35:00 I thought the whole point of gentoo was to be bleeding edge 19:35:05 foom: AFAICT the devs have given up keeping things up-to-date outside of the lisp overlay 19:35:36 dto: good good! working my arse off, but once I have my debts payed, my summer is pratically open to do what I want. Which, at this point, is prawn catching :) 19:35:38 foom: and the original lisp support was based off of debians (common-lisp-controller, etc) 19:35:41 seems pretty silly to have an overlay then, just put those changes in the main repo. ;p 19:36:04 drewc: fantastic :) 19:36:08 foom: but this way it doesn't break all the packages that rely on common lisp 19:36:10 like ... 19:36:23 okay I don't know that there are any 19:36:31 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:33 drewc: doing good here, just working with desura people to get my game submission process rolling and so on 19:37:01 Summon: the choise of your OS it's a your problem. At least you know what gentoo-init.lisp file it's used for? 19:37:12 *drewc* has been using debian since '96, and installed CL from .deb once, in '03 , before realizing that I am now a hater in the handbook. 19:37:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:37 drewc: that is a your problem :) 19:37:58 I use sbcl from deb on all hosts where I don't actually do lisp development. :) 19:38:17 dioxirane: damn ... my solution is a problem? :) 19:38:21 dioxirane: The name and internals of this file tell me that this file is used to initialize the lisp environment ) 19:40:19 dioxirane: code requires asdf and set some setup for asdf-binary-locations 19:40:28 Summon: why it's needed that file? I have no one My_dumb_OS-init.lisp file! 19:40:56 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:42:07 Summon: I've been using gentoo for over a decade; my experience is that gento-init.lisp only causes problems, and that has been true for about 3 years 19:42:24 -!- arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-198-213-225-213.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:00 ... isn't that about how old asdf-2 is? 19:43:03 Summon: it is only needed if you are going to use lisp packages from portage, which might kind-of sort-of work for a while; then you will give up and use either quicklisp, or your own locally managed list of packages 19:43:30 nyef: yeah what a *strange* coincidence :) 19:43:30 dioxirane: Actually why my fedora and debian doesn't has this file can mean a lot. This can be because of phylosophy or ideological reasons. Gentoo udev is forked and default runlevel setup differs 19:44:50 But seriously Summon, if you want to use the portage lisp installs; do your self a favor and layman -f -a lisp first 19:45:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:46:16 jasom: Yep. This looks like the best choice. ) 19:46:34 Thanks a lot for helping. ) 19:46:52 np 19:47:08 dto: I keep on meaning to download and try the linux version that you have on #lispgames ... but I do not have to time to play games ... I happen to like games more than work, so try to avoid them until I have the time :) 19:47:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:47:30 drewc: no rush :) 19:47:36 Odyessus [~odyessus@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:47:41 I played a game in January; it was fun 19:47:55 which one? 19:48:16 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:36 dto: not one of yours; I'm trying to remember the name now... 19:48:47 jasom: i guessed that, i didn't put anything out in january 19:48:48 :) 19:49:17 It was an ARPG where you where on islands floating in the air 19:49:26 whats the A in ARPG 19:49:34 Action (e.g. Legend of Zelda) 19:49:39 ah ok. 19:49:41 twitch game with RPG elements 19:50:10 ... Tail Concerto? Probably not, that was for the PlayStation... 19:50:18 Bastion 19:51:16 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:51:32 jasom: beyond chess, which I play a wee bit, I have not played a game in 2013 ... I own a PS3 with only one game, and I got it around nov when my xbox360 died ... I had 4 games for that. FIFA 10/11/12 and street. Now I only own one. FIFA 12 19:53:20 before kids, I was a fairly avid gamer; between my wife and I we have NES Genesis Dreamcast and PS2. 19:53:38 Odyessus_ [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:43 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:44 -!- Odyessus_ is now known as Odyessus 19:54:56 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-236-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:55:55 jasom: heard good things about Bastion, but never played 19:56:26 Hacking question: Does anyone out there have a nice example of the use of MAKE-LOAD-FORM? 19:57:00 I'm curious about how make-load-form relates to the SBCL semantics of defconstant, too.... 19:57:27 Wayde_Willson_X1 [~arrdem@wireless-206-76-126-18.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 19:57:57 rpg: it very likely doesn't. defconstant can be evaluated at compile and load -time, and the result should always be EQL. If you need m-l-f, that's unlikely to work out right. 19:58:42 pkhuong: I was reading the LOAD-OBJECTS issue, and it almost seemed to be saying that if you defined MAKE-LOAD-FORM method, that was defining "equivalent as a constant." 19:58:53 better reading the ISO 1682:1973 (: 19:59:06 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:59:17 So it read like the EQL criterion would be overridden if MAKE-LOAD-FORM was supplied. 19:59:47 Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:57 If the SBCL restriction is accepted, what is the use-case for MAKE-LOAD-FORM? [I'm finding this very puzzling] 20:01:29 i always saw it as a form of serialization 20:01:40 ikki [~ikki@187.193.168.168] has joined #lisp 20:01:41 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host197.190-138-112.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:51 -!- dioxirane [~LacioDrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 20:02:16 rpg: I read that as constant as in literal. 20:02:31 Qworkescence: I sorta did, too, but I'm somehow not figuring out how it is part of a protocol that involves a CLOS object being written to a file and then loaded back in. 20:02:45 make sure you can reconstruct objects, e.g., hash tables, which don't have, e.g., a literal syntax 20:02:47 This is what the discussions points to. 20:02:58 -!- splittist [d4b93d0c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.61.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:14 I should have an example of using DEFCONSTANT and MAKE-LOAD-FORM in SBCL somewhere. 20:03:15 pkhuong: OK, accepting that, what's the protocol that causes a CLOS object to be written to a file and then re-read? 20:03:28 rpg: the protocol? 20:03:31 ACL has this mechanism for dumping objects to fasl files, but I don't know the more general use case. 20:03:43 rpg: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdd.htm 20:04:12 "The file compiler calls make-load-form on any object that is referenced as a literal object if the object is a generalized instance of standard-object, structure-object, condition, or any of a (possibly empty) implementation-dependent set of other classes. The file compiler only calls make-load-form once for any given object within a single file." 20:04:26 ghast [~user@186.109.193.70] has joined #lisp 20:05:38 rpg: also, defconstants talks about same/identical, not equivalent (which is hand-wavier, and imo, refers to domain specific equivalence, which is why m-l-f is domain specific as well) 20:06:09 jasom: I'm having a failure of vision here, since I can't figure out how I get my objects stashed into files that will be compiled, except possibly by referencing names that are defined in the current environment. 20:06:20 rpg: '#.(make-instance ...) 20:06:30 dioxirane [~LacioDrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 20:06:39 -!- dioxirane [~LacioDrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 20:06:49 jasom: But if I have the make instance form, that can be evaluated, and why do I need make-load-form? 20:07:07 rpg: If you need it to be a singleton. 20:07:20 rpg: or if it is very expensive 20:07:38 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:40 OK. But not a poor man's serialization framework. 20:07:49 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/lh-guid.lisp uses make-load-form for this, GUIDs are supposed to be singletons. 20:08:47 or because you moved computation to macroexpansion-time, and dumped the result in an object graph. 20:09:20 jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:09:24 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:47 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:09:52 It also does a number of insalubrious things with SB-ALIEN, but that's after the whole make-load-form bit. And there's some amount of commentary explaining what the various bits do, though it can be a bit terse in places. 20:09:56 nyef: thanks. That's a good example, because it shows a print-method for guids that satisfies *PRINT-READABLY* Printing readably is another piece of the picture I wasn't fully understanding. 20:09:58 cajetanus [~user@aefs47.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:11:01 dioxirane [~LacioDrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 I'm not finding an example of the use in conjunction with DEFCONSTANT, but I know that I've done it before. 20:13:11 The trick there is that the value form for the DEFCONSTANT involves using BOUNDP to see if the constant has already been defined. 20:13:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:13:45 nyef: yeah, I have actually done that, way back in the day when I used DEFCONSTANT 20:14:05 It's useful for making all of those things that the CLIM II specification says should be constant, but that McCLIM leaves non-constant, actually constant. 20:14:17 +IDENTITY-TRANSFORMATION+ for example. 20:14:18 *drewc* does not use it anymore, because it does not make much sense and performance is not and issue 20:14:26 an* 20:14:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:14:58 nyef: pkhuong's explanation is helpful, but if correct, it seems infelicitous to use "constant" to mean both "literal" and "constant" in the ANSI spec. 20:15:51 I tend to use symbol-macros for 'constants' when I can, but still, I think that DEFCONSTANT in the spec does not make much sense, at least to me. 20:16:25 Yeah, you need a bifurcation between "declared to be constant", "immutable", and "implied to be immutable because of being a literal value in source". 20:16:27 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #lisp 20:16:37 (defparameter +foo+ "ftw") :) 20:16:52 Aha! 20:17:34 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:40 pkhuong's interpretation is supported by this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Issues/iss081_w.htm -- specifically distinguishes "constant" from "constant defined with defconstant" 20:19:06 Related question: so is it fine to address *PRINT-READABLY* for a clos object by emitting #.(make-instance ....) ? 20:19:25 -!- Wayde_Willson_X1 [~arrdem@wireless-206-76-126-18.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:34 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-206-76-126-18.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 20:20:08 rpg: no, i will say it is not.... what happens if it has a slot that is set to itself? 20:20:41 circular, but the reader cannot #1 it afaik ... 20:20:51 rpg: Barring recursion, yes. I'm not sure what to do if there's recursion involved. 20:21:04 drewc: But surely it's my obligation, as the author of the PRINT-OBJECT METHOD, to write such stuff only for objects that are *not* recursive. 20:21:25 right. Or if the pointees don't form a forest. 20:21:46 rpg: yeah, it is ... but how do you tell? That is of course the big question innit 20:21:50 I.e., the spec offers me the opportunity to handle *PRINT-READABLY* for CLOS objects, giving me the opportunity to shoot myself in the foot, but to do great stuff when I know it's safe. 20:22:16 also, you might want to error out if *read-eval* is nil. 20:22:23 drewc: I guess I would say "if I can't tell, then I should stick to PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT." but if I *can* tell, I should have the opportunity to exploit that fact, right? 20:22:43 [not a rhetorical question --- I'm actually asking] 20:24:56 rpg: hrm ... well, I think it depends on why we want to exploit it. and why, for example, we do not have a "PRINT-READABLY-STANDARD-OBJECT" so we can choose where/when/why. 20:24:58 pkhuong: I should make the code I emit error out, right? Not error out when writing? 20:25:23 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:25:56 pkhuong: Because there could be an arbitrary lag between the emitting and the reading.... 20:25:58 I'd error out when writing. #. will fail at read-time if *read-eval* is nil. 20:26:14 But what if, e.g., I am emitting into a file that I will load later? 20:26:18 rpg: No, if *read-eval* is NIL and *print-readably* is T, there's a specific write-time error condition, I believe. At least in some implementations, possibly in the spec. 20:26:37 hasit [~hasit@175.100.139.54] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 I would also prefer the error when writing ... and if it is not in the spec as required, it should at least be as 'optional per imp' imo 20:27:31 I like finding out about errors as they happen, not later. 20:27:39 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:52 rpg: but we suppose that the reader's configuration doesn't change too much between write-time and read-time. Otherwise, we'd never emit unescaped symbols, never look at *r-d-f-f* when printing, and always suffix integers with a period. 20:27:53 nyef: you are right: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node189.html#SECTION002612000000000000000 20:28:13 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5DC63594.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:28:16 Guest58410 [~ruben@pool-71-108-69-50.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:16 pkhuong: so it sounds like there is no existing way to emit a readable description into a file for later loading. I.e., one should make one's own protocol, rather than trying to use print-readably or make-load-form. 20:29:30 -!- Summon [25c1f85d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.193.248.93] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:29:30 Is that a fair statement? 20:30:09 if you're paranoid enough, nothing is possible. 20:30:20 -!- hasit [~hasit@175.100.139.54] has left #lisp 20:30:43 That may have sounded like a complaint, but it was not meant to be -- I am happier making my own protocol than abusing built-in CL features. 20:30:49 No, for most data you can use print-readably into textish files to be read with read and make-load-form and possibly load-time-value for sourceish files to be compiled to fasls. 20:31:48 nyef: OK, that seems plausible -- one just needs to wrap (let ((*print-readably* t) (*read-eval* t)) ...) around the code that writes these textish files. 20:32:14 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 20:32:17 and with-standard-io-syntax. 20:32:18 Basically, yes... aren't those usually the default values? 20:33:13 nyef: Yes, but I have been burned often enough by library callers who have altered default values that I would like to make assurance doubly sure.... 20:33:19 -!- dioxirane [~LacioDrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 20:33:40 so my earlier claim was incorrect. 20:33:46 G________ [~textual@38.88.4.154] has joined #lisp 20:33:53 Fair enough. 20:34:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:34:12 -!- G________ is now known as Doug201 20:34:43 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-rhpxzpmptvyxnznn] has joined #lisp 20:35:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105.236.181.86] has joined #lisp 20:35:49 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Brb, logging into my GNOME3 session.] 20:36:27 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:22 Thank you all -- this has been very helpful indeed. I was mostly understanding the individual bits of the spec in this area, but having trouble pulling them together into a coherent story. 20:37:26 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:38 Odyessus [~odyessus@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 20:37:42 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Things never change, only rearrange.] 20:38:14 youlysses [~user@75.132.7.80] has joined #lisp 20:41:04 `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has joined #lisp 20:41:39 sellout- [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 20:42:11 -!- toekutr [~user@50.0.51.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:43 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:05 Odyessus [~odyessus@89.144.192.206] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105.236.181.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:04 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@89.144.192.206] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:52:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:31 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:53:11 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:54:12 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:59 -!- pkkm [~pawel@eqx105.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:02 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:23 -!- arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-206-76-126-18.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:56:33 Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:00 -!- sayara_ [~sayara3@82.117.199.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:54 pkkm [~pawel@eqx105.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:03:55 I've also done (defparameter +foo+ "ftw") in my youth, but now I don't think it's a good idea. Just use (defparameter *foo* "ftw") 21:04:23 pjb: I (apparently still in my youth) still do that  why isnt it a good idea? 21:04:53 Because the resulting value isn't a constant? 21:04:58 Yes. 21:05:10 And because it makes +foo+ a special variable. 21:05:42 i think a lot of programmers would prefer to write what they mean, and how it's intended to be used 21:05:47 not what the standard forces them to do 21:05:50 Qworkescence: Indeed. 21:05:52 at least that's why I write + instead of * 21:06:04 It's not a standard, it's a convention. 21:06:11 although, the standard has nothing to do with this. 21:06:13 silly humans. 21:06:24 You could write *+foo+* if you really wanted to. 21:06:34 pjb, i am not saying *+ are standard, but the semantics of defparameter are 21:07:08 and just because defparameter doesn't define constants in the standard sense, doesn't mean that's not what the human means and wants to convey 21:07:10 dario [~dario@mailgate.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 -!- dario [~dario@mailgate.zerties.org] has left #lisp 21:07:30 (defparameter *+foo+* "a special constant") 21:07:38 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [] 21:08:08 spiked earmuffs, ouch 21:08:58 +*those-would-be-safer?*+ 21:09:15 p_l: No hugging, though! 21:09:15 this way the spikes are on the outside instead of biting in the ears 21:09:39 *whartung* giggles that +*those-would-be-safer?*+ is actually valid.. 21:09:50 sellout-: with interior spikes there's also no hugging unless wearer of earmuffs is a masochist 21:10:06 whartung: I sometimes code with kanji symbols for shits'n'giggles 21:10:13 heh 21:10:16 emoji... 21:11:19 if you want to see a great argument, look at debate over the unicode name for the emouji "Western Man" 21:11:30 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:12:19 U+1F471 I think; it got renamed to "Person with blond hair" to be less racist 21:13:25 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc177.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:13:30 That would have made an awesome programming language name. Looks like I was too eager in registering snowflake snowflake.ws (: 21:15:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:16:09 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:16:41 paleface got out of fashion ? 21:16:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:16:43 lol 21:16:54 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:17:35 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-136-126-64.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:11 -!- pkkm [~pawel@eqx105.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:31 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:55 Odyessus [~odyessus@89.144.192.206] has joined #lisp 21:21:54 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 21:21:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [Changing host] 21:21:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:22:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:25:06 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 21:25:09 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:25:36 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 21:25:46 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:25:47 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest78834 21:27:40 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:36 -!- Guest78834 is now known as PuercoPop` 21:30:56 -!- PuercoPop` is now known as PuercoPop 21:31:06 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.25] has joined #lisp 21:31:14 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@89.144.192.206] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:31:57 Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:38 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:36:25 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:36:59 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:20 MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:59 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:19 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-39-198.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:42:11 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:42:24 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192206.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:43:21 antgreen [~green@64.56.225.109] has joined #lisp 21:44:50 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:24 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:14 -!- Guest58410 [~ruben@pool-71-108-69-50.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:16 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:33 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:49:58 vlgothic [~vlgothic@150.134.234.30] has joined #lisp 21:50:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:33 dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:55 -!- dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:52:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:53:19 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 21:53:57 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:54:12 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:54:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:58 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:41 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 22:05:41 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:32 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:47 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:13 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:11:49 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.54.162] has joined #lisp 22:14:01 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 22:14:26 -!- Doug201 [~textual@38.88.4.154] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:14:57 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 22:15:08 hi 22:15:12 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:30 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:15:35 I'm doing a Space Invaders in CL. Do you think I should focus on the functional aspects of CL, or in CLOS? 22:16:20 Denommus: how are they different (to you) exactly? 22:17:14 *** PuercoPop (~user@190. 22:18:02 as far as I've seen, CLOS is more imperative. When you create methods, they will change the state of the objects on most of the times 22:18:18 oops 22:18:28 Denommus: well, ok ... so functions are not objects to you? 22:18:30 Denommus: what makes you thinks functions won't do the same thing? 22:18:34 ... is it possible to think about CLOS in a functional fashion? ... I really didn't think about that 22:18:34 H4ns: rcirc or erc? 22:18:38 :) 22:19:06 sykopomp: isn't this the definition of side-effect, which should be avoided? 22:19:09 Denommus: what is generic functions based on? 22:19:10 Denommus: CLOS' generic functions are simply functions that dispatch on type(s) 22:19:13 drewc: I see functions as objects, yes 22:19:37 Denommus: and, you are aware that all objects have classes, yes? 22:19:52 MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:57 you can most definitely have "pure" CLOS code that takes full advantage of its features. 22:20:09 drewc: yup 22:20:12 So, functions are objects with classes, and a part of the CLOS system, so ... 22:20:44 "Denommus: how are they different (to you) exactly?" :) 22:21:28 I'll try to rephrase my question 22:21:41 -!- jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:21:54 *drewc* is sorry for "CLOS system" in the last one ... to many systems at the end! :) 22:22:03 do you guys define your own classes and methods in an imperative fashion, or do you manage to avoid side-effects on your methods definitions? 22:22:09 Mu 22:22:21 Denommus: tl;dr: "functional" and "object-oriented" are not distinct things in common lisp. 22:23:03 there's no need for side-effects if you don't think your code needs side-effects. Methods are just regular functions that are called when passed data of certain types. 22:23:07 "or do you manage to avoid side-effects on your methods definitions?" is that not method defining itself, a side-effect of evaling the defmethod form? 22:23:43 drewc: you're a philosopher 22:23:56 am I taking programming classes with Socrates? 22:23:59 Denommus: nope, just a software developer 22:24:33 but, if you do not want me advice, I will Shut The Fuck Up now . 22:25:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:25:01 Denommus: if you want to use clos, i think the best way is to just use standard oo paradigms. you define classes and methods that mutate the instances. 22:25:08 drewc: I didn't mean to be rude, take it as a compliment :) 22:25:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:14 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc177.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:25:36 H4ns: you've understand better what I meant to ask 22:25:36 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:37 Denommus: in clos, classes and methods are orthogonal to each other, but that should not stop you from confining instance mutation to methods. 22:26:17 rubenrubz [~ruben@pool-71-108-69-50.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:27 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-18-164.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:30 Denommus: trying to avoid mutation with clos is kind of defeating the meaning of clos and object oriented programming. i'm pretty sure that wild things can be done with "immutable clos", but if you just want to do some programming, don't bother with that. 22:26:48 Denommus: my preferred style is to just write a bunch of functions, and start writing genfuns/methods when I want to add some kind of extension protocol to the system. 22:27:22 as opposed to writing everything with generic functions, which is sort of pointless :) 22:27:38 Denommus: "corrupting the youth and impiety" and poison hemlock is not my idea of what I want to be a part of :) 22:27:55 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-60.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:28:13 don't you need defmethod in order to do gen funs? 22:28:28 no 22:28:29 clhs defgeneric 22:28:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm 22:28:35 sykopomp: there is nothing wrong with mutating clos instances using non-generic functions. it is just that methods feel less foreign to people coming from lesser languages. 22:28:46 whartung: it is the other way round. 22:29:03 H4ns: I tend to defgeneric my accessors, fwiw. 22:29:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.168.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:29:15 it feels a bit verbose sometimes, though. 22:29:42 "tend" is probably too strong. I've started doing it. 22:29:59 sykopomp: verbosity is a good thing IMO ... it may take longer to write, but since the details are written, less time to read. 22:30:13 sykopomp: newcomers tend to think that clos is very verbose. and they're right. but we don't need to tell them right away :) 22:30:28 *drewc* tends to read his code more often then he writes it, by a lot! 22:30:41 H4ns: one way to relieve that verbosity is to just use defstruct :) 22:30:51 sykopomp: awesome advice 22:31:02 sykopomp: and then define defclass* 22:31:05 *sigh* 22:31:20 Denommus: please don't read all this and go code some :) 22:31:26 if it's not meant to be extended (yet), defstruct is good enough for having a type + named fields 22:31:34 *drewc* hangs his head and sighs as well :) 22:32:21 H4ns: I thought that CLOS is verbose at first, but after a while I understood why it needs to be, and where the power is hidden 22:32:28 but really, I mean, when you have a class with named fields, no intention of allowing extension, etc, it seems kind of moot to care too much. 22:32:45 sykopomp: why bother with a struct if a plist is fine as well? 22:32:53 you could just as well use #'slot-value, or just :accessor 22:32:53 I mean, I'm not absolutely sure where it is, but I know there is a lot of power on it. I now think of Ruby's OO as a poor-man's CLOS 22:32:57 i think i outed myself as a plist lover already. 22:33:25 Denommus: ruby is much simpler, but as soon as performance is asked for, it is too simple. 22:33:48 H4ns: Not much of a difference, I just like the way you handle structs a bit better, and it has some nice functions that mean I can eventually change my code to defclass/defgeneric for accessors 22:35:06 (defstruct foo (x)) (defun blargh (foo) (foo-x foo)) means I can just do (defgeneric foo-x (foo)) later and be done with it. 22:35:34 bah. Ruby's simply not as much fun. 22:36:29 is there any advantage on plists over hashes? 22:36:30 H4ns: I am on your side for plists ... and even structs with :type 22:36:42 Lispery [~anonymous@aefs47.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:36:55 Denommus: Mu ... yes/no ... maybe ... Wu 22:37:06 Denommus: probably use less memory and are faster on very small data sets, and they have an easy literal syntax. 22:38:10 and, GETF? I mean, hash can be keyed from strings, yes? :) 22:38:27 and destructuring-bind goodness. 22:38:38 Denommus: plists have a friendlier literal syntax 22:38:42 and for that matter, integers? 22:39:01 Denommus: they're also easily combined with apply and keyword arguments and can be combined in a convenient fashion. 22:39:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:40:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:40:41 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:16 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:44:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:20 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 22:44:44 H4ns: and, (can be) easily READ/WRITE'ed as well 22:47:36 -!- arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-39-198.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:48:44 -!- vlgothic [~vlgothic@150.134.234.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:53 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:52:44 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:53:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-181-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:03 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-007-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:55:19 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:58 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:11 -!- Lispery [~anonymous@aefs47.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:53 i got a function which returns a closure like (defun fn (args) #'(lambda () ...)), it works fine, clean, precise BUT i'd like to be able to modify and recompile like any other function WITHOUT calling fn again. 22:57:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:49 You want to modify and recompile what? 22:58:48 the closure? 22:58:57 here it returns lambda, if i recompile "fn" it won't affect the returned lambda 22:59:14 yes jasom 22:59:15 Sure, as soon as you call fn it will return an affected lambda. 22:59:32 nan_: otherwise, closures are equivalent to objects. Perhaps you should use defmethod. 22:59:33 you can't recompile it "in place" 23:00:04 With defmethod you can change a method, without changing the bindings in the objects. 23:00:26 ie. without having to call make-instance again. 23:00:34 pjb: i can do this with classes and such but right now it looks so clean, concise i just want it to work :) 23:00:42 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bc910a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:49 then call fn again! 23:00:53 yea but all the niceness of Lisp is one reason why it won't work :) 23:01:04 (progn (compile 'fn) (fn)) 23:01:21 or even (funcall (compile 'fn)) 23:02:00 or even (funcall (compile 'fn (lambda (arg)(block fn (lambda ))))) if you want to redefine it at the same time. 23:02:05 pjb: oh true ... I have never used the value returned by compile, so did not know what it is :) 23:02:32 *drewc* does not use COMPILE very often at all ... 23:02:32 pjb: i know what you mean but... say i can't call "fn" again 23:02:43 Then use defmethod. 23:02:58 nan_: ok, you can implement defmethod yourself. 23:03:57 drewc: plists are more efficient for small maps than hashes 23:04:11 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:04:27 subtlepath: really? is that in the CLHS? ;) 23:04:31 what is small? like <100 elements? 23:04:36 just curious. 23:04:41 ghast: probably more like 10 23:04:46 (defun fn (arg) (let ((methods '())) (lambda (msg &rest rest) (case msg (set-method (setf methods (acons (first rest) (second rest) methods))) (otherwise (let ((entry (assoc (first rest) methods))) (if entry (apply (cdr entry) (rest rest)) (error "Undefined method ~A" (first rest))))))))) 23:04:48 oh ok 23:04:50 ghast: but depends on the implementation heavily 23:04:57 oh ... 23:05:09 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:14 pjb: was that for me? 23:05:34 (let ((object (fn))) (funcall object 'set-method 'my-method (lambda () (print 'hi))) (funcall object 'my-method) (funcall object 'set-method 'my-method (lambda () (print 'lo))) (funcall object 'my-method)) 23:05:37 nan_: yes. 23:05:51 i guess <10 should be a safe threshold for most implementations right? 23:05:59 nan_: you can have your clojure call a defun 23:06:04 -!- rubenrubz [~ruben@pool-71-108-69-50.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:06:07 nan_: then rebuild the defun to get different behavior 23:06:08 So you can change methods inside the closure without calling fn again. 23:06:27 s/clojure/closure 23:06:32 nan_: but you have to provide methods to access the slots, for those methods to have access to them. 23:06:47 ikki [~ikki@187.193.168.168] has joined #lisp 23:07:19 ghast: compared to hash-tables, small is between 5 and 35, depending on the implementations. (Native code compiled implementations are closer to 5, clisp is closer to 35). 23:07:26 ghast: if you are worried about performance, well, M-x slime-profile-package to see where the slow down is... plists and hash tables are very very different. 23:07:46 Not that it is directly related to the compiler, more to the library. 23:08:15 (and alists, and btrees, etc etc etc) 23:08:23 i see. thanks for the tip 23:09:22 *p_l* ponders the possibility of receiving at 0100 UTC a plane ticket to london on the same day 23:09:29 ... it's distressingly non-zero 23:09:54 p_l: emacsconf? 23:09:58 drewc: interviews 23:10:09 jasom: yes if i call a defun from closure, i can just recompile that function, thanks! 23:10:18 *drewc* is looking for a way to make it to London for emacsconf but will likely not :) 23:10:26 pjb: thank you as well :) 23:10:28 I'm going to mark this 1.5 week as "1.5 week of madness" 23:11:08 with possibly continued madness till April 23:11:55 p_l: interviews ... giving or receiving? 23:11:56 while we're on this topic, is declaring a defun notinline sufficient to allow it to be rebuilt and have all future references to it be the new version? 23:12:08 jasom: yes. 23:12:10 jasom: should be 23:12:20 if you're worried about performance enough to plist instead of hash tables, at least go for pvectors (: 23:12:23 drewc: I'm the interviewed one 23:12:26 And defuns default to notinline, do they not? 23:12:29 jasom: yea, it _has_ to be IIRC 23:12:38 nyef: nope. File compilation. 23:12:43 Ahh. 23:12:54 ... did we ever get block compilation working again in SBCL? 23:13:03 sadly, not really. 23:13:17 p_l: exciting! :D 23:13:24 neither inline nor notinline is default IIRC 23:13:42 It would be nice to re-enable the non-ansi global type propagation stuff, at the file-level. 23:13:44 drewc: especially if I do indeed get a ticket for today (it's 0013 here) :> 23:14:06 also, once again I coded on my phone interview with google in Common Lisp ;> 23:14:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:15:03 p_l: you should have done it in Shen or something, that would really raise some eyebrows 23:15:25 jasom: what raised eyebrows was "MIT ITS, TOPS-20" mentioned in my CV 23:15:33 p_l: heh ... I had coded CL for my google phone interview as well ... fwiw it worked! :) 23:15:34 bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:58 jasom: I ended up getting interviewed by a person who actually used both of those 23:16:32 When I graduated from college; the Google recruiter handed me my resume back and told me not to bother applying... 23:16:36 p_l: "MIT ITS, TOPS-20" ... ooooh awwww ...mmmmm 23:16:44 jasom: ... lol 23:17:04 jasom: fwiw, sometime ago a guy asked for language check of his resume 23:17:16 some of my friends started suggesting, then I came back 23:18:00 I think it was the combination of low-GPA and non-CS major... 23:18:26 don't bother applying if you want to write in an interesting, cushy language 23:18:27 ~15 minutes later the guy was a bit overwhelmed and feeling small (dunno why) because I showed him how to both rewrite the CV to make it more "sellable", and thinking that I had to be great to put so much on CV (IMO he just didn't know how to write CVs) 23:18:57 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Fug!] 23:19:22 -!- waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:19:31 jasom: or it could be dull CV. I put nearly zero grades (only my TOEFL iBT cert that already expired) on my CV, instead I put in stuff like projects that I did etc. 23:20:02 jasom: well, fwiw, I dropped out of HS and College (twice for the later) ... so I likely would not have given a resume because, well, there was no recruiters :) 23:20:07 this was when I was graduating... at the job-failr if your GPA isn't on the resume they always ask for it. 23:20:08 if anyone is interested in a cool Hunchentoot project, I put the in-progress code for a social network I'm building on github: https://github.com/kindista/kindista 23:20:17 jasom: I haven't graduated :> 23:20:34 (also, not USA) 23:21:00 *jasom* got a job with the only company that didn't ask for his GPA 23:21:20 "GPA? I dropped out of high school." 23:21:32 nyef: works for me! 23:21:37 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.193.168.168] has joined #lisp 23:21:50 I heavily point out towards more interesting stuff than GPA on my resume 23:21:54 Me too. Look at all of the crazy things I've worked on! (-: 23:22:11 though, I have not had a CV or resume in like ... 10 years or so... so I have no idea what should be on there. 23:22:27 Yeah... the research councils are still more interested in my GPA than in SBCL stuff ;) 23:22:32 Yeah, I never did get the hang of the whole "resume" thing. 23:22:50 "my name is drewc, and i want to get money + get paid" 23:22:55 drewc: mine starts by breaking one of the "holy rules" of 99% of resume advice, that is, it's 4 pages now 23:23:14 p_l, mine is too, in like 10pt font 23:23:24 p_l: sort -r date | head -1page 23:24:53 Qworkescence: heh, I haven't played with font size too much yet, but my ploy of avoiding mentioning grades works so far :> 23:24:54 Qworkescence: not even that. "I think that the software that I write and maintain will help your business ... I need to make a living, so increasing your income will likely increase mine... what do you think?" 23:25:11 it's easier for me to get a good IT job than support myself with part-time while studying 23:25:25 drewc: I call that "consultant's marketing" :> 23:25:58 *drewc* is a consultant, so that term makes sense! :D 23:26:39 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:03 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:27:30 p_l, fwiw i haven't put any grades on mine 23:27:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:17 p_l: oh yeah, I probably wouldn't do undergrad today. It's more than doubled in costs after adjusting for inflation 23:28:53 *jasom* would not currently be a homeowner had he paid todays prices for college 23:30:08 is there a non-lazy alternative for cond? 23:30:14 yes, I have a usecase 23:30:39 no but it would be easy to write 23:30:42 I wouldn't hire anybody with too high a gpa 23:30:51 Denommus: you'll have to write a function. 23:30:55 (remove nil (list one two three)) 23:31:16 Dalek_Baldwin: that seems at least as dumb as not hiring anybody with too low a gpa 23:31:24 (funcall (first *)) 23:32:18 jasom: well, I don't pay a dime for my course 23:32:40 who was it in here that inspired me to write COND-ONCE or whatever, which allows each branch of a cond to only be taken at most one time 23:34:03 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@24.178.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:47 I guess we'll never know, but for the curious, it's https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/8aa715880dea362becd7058dd692a1c66d9e13b2/once-only-cond.lisp 23:36:33 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:35 Denommus: (case expr ((litera1) ) ((literal2) ) (otherwise )) 23:38:12 Denommus: or perhaps you mean (funcall (cdr (assoc nil (list (list (not cond1) (lambda () clause1)) (list (not cond2) (lambda () clause2))  (list nil (lambda () otherwise)))))) 23:42:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:45:33 -!- youlysses [~user@75.132.7.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:28 marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has joined #lisp 23:47:57 -!- marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:15 marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has joined #lisp 23:49:28 -!- marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:31 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 23:49:46 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:49:49 marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has joined #lisp 23:51:12 -!- marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:33 marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has joined #lisp 23:51:33 -!- marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:57 marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has joined #lisp 23:52:28 -!- marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:38 Qworkescence: you were right, I should have looked into series sooner. it seems odd that it wasn't mentioned in the original AOP papers 23:53:11 marcux [~marco@177.32.180.211] has joined #lisp 23:53:38 it's hard to find code to study that makes use of it though. (ql:who-depends-on "series") -> ("series-tests") 23:55:38 arrdem_x11 [~arrdem@wireless-128-62-39-198.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 23:55:39 hahaha :)))) 23:55:52 Dalek_Baldwin: have you read CLtL2? 23:55:53 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:00 people are scared of language extensions that aren't their own 23:56:08 yeah, I just found out about series recently from reading cltl2 cover to cover 23:57:02 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 23:57:42 drewc: yes, and I just found the series user's manual from 1989 23:58:42 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node347.html#SECTION003400000000000000000 23:59:31 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]