00:00:34 nyef: how I go about it has a lot to do with https://raw.github.com/drewc/smug/master/doc/monparsing.org 00:00:36 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:49 nyef: and this : http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-5 00:01:10 drewc: At the point where I have the bandwidth available for studying monadic parsers, you'll be the first person I ask for links. That point is not this point. 00:01:49 nyef: thank you, and I will wait and learn for sure. 00:02:29 my hyperspec-fu is weak today. where is what (defun (setf foo)) does described? 00:02:36 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:03:07 jasom: that just defines a function like usual. do you mean, in what situations will setf use that function? 00:03:10 Probably under DEFUN, since you seem to have forgotten an arglist... 00:03:45 Bike: it doesn't make a setf-expander? 00:03:46 jasom: all over the place , but file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#function_name 00:03:53 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:03:54 jasom: nope 00:03:57 clhs 5.1.2.9 00:03:57 Other Compound Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm 00:04:28 basically the default expansion for (setf (foo ...) ...) calls #'(setf foo) 00:04:56 Bike: thanks 00:05:03 And, yes, you can get a hold of such a function with #'(setf foo). Doesn't work for setf expanders, only for setf-functions. 00:06:07 *Bike* looked this up after getting errors about "no function (SETF QUOTE)" and such too many times 00:07:20 So, more fun, you can use LABELS or FLET to establish such a function. 00:07:51 that i still don't understand the workings of. 00:08:26 Then, to go one step further, SYMBOL-MACROLET will let you have SETF of a given symbol expand to a call to a local setf-function... 00:08:51 ... And, yes, I actually tried this in SBCL. 00:10:50 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xvsumkuarfvfrlsx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:11:08 -!- SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vdnnwogyxglmhiur] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:12:28 And it looks like I have an example easily to hand: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/symbol-value-restarts-take2.patch 00:12:36 mutley89_ [~mutley89@92.40.162.205.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:13:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:14:31 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:14:39 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:18 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@188.30.69.106.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:40 doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has joined #lisp 00:17:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@108.52.166.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:02 nyef: I actually use the FLET of SETF functions ! and I am glad it works :) 00:19:11 1+ :) 00:19:33 Now, if only we had USE-VALUE restarts for undefined-variable errors in SBCL, right? (-: 00:21:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:41 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.66.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:22:01 heh .... and I just realized that I did not do the (SETF FOO) FLET thing for my monparsing.org MLET* ... 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01:49:53 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:50:19 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1096586303.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:50:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:50:36 maboi [~maboi@109.227.43.140] has joined #lisp 01:50:45 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:45 *Xach* is on a lisptips.com roll, eat my dust, slime-tips.tumblr.com 01:58:48 -!- rking [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has quit [Quit: Rebooting weechat to see if it helps RAM situation] 02:00:22 rking [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 02:02:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@108.178.120.144] has quit [] 02:03:23 -!- cantcode [~cantcode@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ragequit] 02:08:35 -!- SNBarnett [~user@unaffiliated/snbarnett] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:09:04 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kogoipceblthlbnx] has joined #lisp 02:09:34 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 02:09:35 SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ixgtpriefmswynxv] has joined #lisp 02:10:41 Xach: and thank you! 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05:32:29 -!- j0ni_ is now known as j0ni 05:33:47 -!- ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 05:33:51 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@68.81.244.69] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 05:35:00 ``Erik_ [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:03 -!- lamigra [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:37:21 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:37:58 hows the lisping folks? 05:38:12 some cool prevayler style data stores on cliki 05:38:17 manardb 05:38:27 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 05:39:03 https://github.com/drewc/planks/blob/master/planks.org planks 05:39:03 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025631.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:39:15 wonder if they would rock for speedy e-commerce 05:41:27 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.89.154] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:45:13 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: x___x] 05:45:19 -!- clintm 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[~user@d50-99-48-31.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:58 -!- k0001 [~k0001@190.224.66.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:17:02 cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-206-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:18:59 agumonkey [~agu@32.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:30 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@217.118.79.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:51 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:20:52 juniorroy [~juniorroy@217.118.79.20] has joined #lisp 06:30:39 u_fuk: if "speedy ecommerce" and "persistence" are two topics which are pretty far apart. 06:31:08 u_fuk: "type declarations rock for speedy ecommerce". if you know what i mean. 06:31:38 -!- ed_g [~quassel@75-164-206-15.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:17 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:38:04 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 06:40:56 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:47:15 sw2wolf [~czsq888@118.112.157.233] has joined #lisp 06:53:59 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:08 hm 06:55:17 if nly forth os was usible 06:55:22 I culd use forth all the way 06:56:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:56:36 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:59:57 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:02:11 forth is awful 07:02:13 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 07:02:27 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:16 nha [~prefect@brln-4dba329c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:39 and off topic 07:11:03 ludston [~ludston@CPE-58-166-124-174.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:12:47 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.5] has joined #lisp 07:13:07 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joined #lisp 07:31:41 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e1ae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@32.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:34:49 lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.169] has joined #lisp 07:36:35 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-68-135.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:59 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:40:58 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63.229.134.7] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:45:34 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has joined #lisp 07:51:42 dto [~user@96.252.62.13] has joined #lisp 07:53:53 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:55:00 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:55:00 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:55:00 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:57:28 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@118.112.157.233] has left #lisp 07:57:37 hi. i'm having some trouble using Wine to run sbcl.exe and thereby cross-compile a binary of my new lisp game. i've done this before to make working win32 binaries, however at the moment i'm getting this error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135771 07:57:44 maybe i'm missing an option? 07:57:50 the build-unix file is annotated on that paste 07:57:57 benny [~user@31.193.133.168] has joined #lisp 07:58:51 i cant seem to get a backtrace either 07:59:06 i'm using SBCL the same version as the linux version 08:01:09 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:31 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:01:31 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:01:31 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:02:50 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@86.171.15.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:20 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:07:12 zorkmoid [c2ed8e06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.6] has joined #lisp 08:10:30 good morning lithp! 08:10:44 hi zorkmoid . 08:17:35 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:20:03 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:20:36 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-224.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:28:22 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:04 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:34:37 -!- skbierm_ [~sascha@p4FEA0C41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:35:15 -!- Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:37:47 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:afe0:ddf7:e4a7:3775:8735] has joined #lisp 08:40:01 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0C41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:25 jtza8 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[Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:53 dto: did you try with cl-buildapp or the ASDF (asdf-driver) tools to build executables? 09:07:02 not yet. 09:07:03 they might have the missing magic 09:07:55 and I'm pretty sure that Fare will be delighted when asked to add support for cross-bulding with wine in linux for windows in asdf-driver :) 09:08:15 thanks dim , i'll make sure to ask him about it 09:08:23 i've got a few people trying the linux version of my game, are you interested? 09:08:27 seriously though, if you both get that working I know I'll have a use for it down the road 09:08:40 I'm not running linux anymore at home 09:09:02 dim: i know that the Wine exe binaries i cross-compiled for my last game, did work on Real Windows 09:09:03 as a consultant I did find it was not economically wise for me to do so... 09:09:54 how do i get the pathname of the executable, while executing? 09:09:59 I'm working on a CL program (pgloader) that I will want to ship as a binary to windows people, but where I envision the main interaction being a command line then a web controler... I still would like the ability to build that from a non-windows host if that's possible 09:10:23 asdf-driver now has needed bits to get at the command line 09:10:38 how do you spell argv[0] in there I don't know yet 09:11:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:13:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:13:45 browndawg [~browndawg@117.208.69.179] has joined #lisp 09:14:43 lman [~noname@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 09:18:09 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:18:13 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.168.49] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 09:18:33 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:48 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-229-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 09:21:04 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joined #lisp 09:51:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:51:05 gienah [~mwright@gentoo/developer/gienah] has joined #lisp 09:51:52 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:56:34 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 09:56:53 Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-14.isr.uc.pt] has joined #lisp 09:57:45 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:19 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:05:50 mutley89 [~mutley89@94.196.73.46.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:07:15 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@94.196.73.46.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:07:45 mutley89 [~mutley89@94.196.73.46.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:08:26 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:08:29 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 10:11:06 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@133.Red-81-34-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:44 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:18 I can't seem to get anything done in lisp. 10:25:20 faaak 10:25:57 It makes everything seem simple 10:26:15 but then I dont know howto have it interact with web or unix files very well.. 10:26:27 I mean the shoe e-commerce site i wana make 10:26:33 list of propertie sof shoe 10:26:36 list of shoe anmes 10:26:39 list of colors 10:26:44 u_fuk: please stop 10:26:45 I mean menatll I can see lots fo lsits 10:26:48 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 10:26:56 then making functions to pick out shoes kinda like data query 10:27:02 u_fuk: you need to read a book first. then come back with specific questions. also, your spelling is awful. 10:27:03 ok 10:27:09 typing yeah 10:27:18 esp when Im back from bars 10:27:23 do you reccomend pcl? 10:27:28 i recommend sleep. 10:31:44 good night 10:32:00 Ill ask about lisp web frameowrks tomororw and planks 10:32:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:32:05 and manardb 10:32:07 -!- u_fuk [6c00b766@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.0.183.102] has left #lisp 10:33:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:41:44 varjagg [~eugene@62.97.226.122] has joined #lisp 10:43:52 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-49.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:43:53 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:44 sleep is underrated :) 10:44:55 sanity too 10:48:55 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Quit: I've had it.] 10:49:56 -!- waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:50:46 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.208.69.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:55:49 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:57:14 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:00:09 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181185183.pp.htv.fi] has 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[d4cb4e8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.203.78.138] has joined #lisp 12:59:30 morning 13:01:14 Any Berlin-familiar lispers able to recommend hotels with good transport links to the Zoo stop? 13:02:01 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:46 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:02:46 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:02:46 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:05:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:43 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-14.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:15 splittist: do you want to stay in the touristy east or in the boring west? 13:11:43 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:11:56 H4ns: you make east sound (slightly) more appealing 13:12:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@108.52.166.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:13 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:29 splittist: it is because i live there :) 13:12:43 H4ns: what better recommendation could there be! 13:13:36 This would be for next Mon-Wed, in case that has any bearing on your thoughts (for which TIA) (: 13:13:37 splittist: http://www.amanogroup.de/en/hotels/amano/ is right where many of the tourist starts (and around the corner of the current lisp meeting place) 13:14:44 splittist: there are cheaper or more expensive options, of course. this one would be 80-105 per night 13:15:07 -!- agumon-bike is now known as agumonkey 13:15:53 Sold out. ): Happy to go further upscale... 13:17:27 *Xach* was sad to see the ELS hotel does not have rooms left during the ELS week 13:18:12 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:19:12 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:19:57 splittist: if you can spend the money, have a look at the hotels around alexanderplatz (radisson blu, park inn) - located right in the center, good connectivity to zoo by s-bahn 13:20:01 Xach: booking.com still shows available rooms 13:20:04 splittist: can't really recommend any, though. 13:20:30 good thing you reminded me I need to book a room myself :) 13:22:54 hmm 13:22:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1] 13:23:59 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:08 H4ns: thanks! 13:24:30 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:24:31 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:24:31 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:29:33 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:59 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:29:59 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:29:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 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joined #lisp 14:07:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:08:09 i heard there's a competition on the most silly way to convert integer bits into a list of bits, here's my entry: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135775 14:09:23 that is indeed very silly 14:09:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 bloody sbcl is too clever, had to resort to load-time-value to defeat type propagation 14:11:44 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-253-236.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:56 lol 14:14:00 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-245.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:47 urgosum [~urgosum@86.148.233.55] has joined #lisp 14:14:49 k0001 [~k0001@host118.190-224-66.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:14:53 now more portable: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135775#1 14:16:15 oh, i don't need a fill 14:16:35 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:d9e2:17e1:851f:cd93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:01 danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:a9a5:b55e:bf6d:ea8d] has joined #lisp 14:17:06 is (loop with x = 1234567890 for i from 0 to 63 collect (if (logbitp i x) 1 0)) the not so stupid try? 14:17:48 (loop with x = 1234567890 for i from 63 downto 0 collect (if (logbitp i x) 1 0)) apparently 14:18:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:19:05 (defun less-stupid (x) (loop with rem do (setf (values x rem) (truncate x 2)) collect rem while (plusp x))) 14:19:06 last one, promise: (coerce (loop with x = 1234567890 for i from 63 downto 0 collect (if (logbitp i x) 1 0)) 'bit-vector) 14:19:14 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:19:18 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:19:29 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 14:20:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:21:11 would a division be faster than a logbitp? 14:21:23 it's a shift 14:21:38 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 yes. but I don't know what the logbitp is 14:22:27 That will teach me not to use symmetric bit patterns when testing. 14:22:31 why limit yourself to 64 bits? 14:22:31 *Xach* patches up tip 14:23:01 in ccl the disassemble is not in favor of the truncate 14:23:26 but I should get back to work instead of diving into CL again :) 14:23:47 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1221-245.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:26:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:43 stopbit [~stopbit@108.48.124.82] has joined #lisp 14:27:19 Man, I got 'em all wrong. How embarrassing. 14:27:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:27:37 which way? 14:27:52 #b1100 => (0 0 1 1) 14:28:01 well, it's just a reverse, not wrong 14:28:03 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:15 I'll remember that on my next highway trip 14:28:26 everybody's wrong at times, that's not what's important 14:28:33 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-awtzjhmvgzthnsuw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:28:43 What's funny is that I used loop/collect because I didn't want to have to reverse 14:28:53 But now I can use dotimes because push works fine 14:28:53 any ECL 12.12.1 users here? 14:28:59 flip214: yes 14:29:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 I get an error when trying to use quicklisp: ...quicklisp/ASDF-TMP-package.c:36:58: error: ECL_NIL undeclared (first use in this function) 14:29:44 but i don't use quicklisp 14:29:57 That reminds me of the joke: A wife calls her husband on his cell phone, "Honey, be careful today, the news says one driver is going backwards on the highway!" "ONE driver? It's crazy out here! They ALL are driving backwards!" 14:30:05 ah, sorry ignore me. 14:30:08 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-syytllqbymkqmcqn] has joined #lisp 14:30:24 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:30:29 *Xach* will patch up joke later, too 14:31:01 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.17.151] has joined #lisp 14:31:08 still had remains of a manually compiled/installed ecl in /usr/local/include/ecl 14:31:08 thought I'd got everything. 14:31:16 cfy` [~ilisp@122.231.27.172] has joined #lisp 14:31:19 mutley89 [~mutley89@188.29.223.188.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:31:19 those are all too slow 14:31:23 *stassats* goes to write a faster one 14:32:25 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.87] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has joined #lisp 14:33:31 Hey 14:33:45 doing my loop 1000 times took 3,940 microseconds here, is that too much? 14:35:01 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:35:24 Does lisp have any famous problems that I should example in my report? 14:35:47 devin_: a bad reputation. 14:36:14 people think it's an "interpreted language" (?) and that it's dynamic and slow 14:36:45 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.211] has joined #lisp 14:37:17 Sorry, Are there any problems commonly known by lispers, that are popular in text books or in the community? I am doing a quick intro and writing a report on how to get Lispbox up and running and showing some test cases of some code. 14:37:39 Maybe something along the lines of, look at this example of code that would take more effort in another language 14:38:23 stassats: just do it: (defun bitlist (x) (do ((y x (truncate y 2)) (z nil (cons (mod y 2) z))) ((= y 0) z))) 14:38:34 trivial examples are not very good for showing relative strengths of languages 14:38:35 devin_: did you see the dsl in lisp video yet? 14:38:51 devin_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0 14:38:56 devin_: What jdz said, but you could check out SICP, there are a lot of great examples there 14:39:48 dim, no I will look at it now 14:40:05 -!- splittist [d4cb4e8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.203.78.138] has quit [Quit: Run!] 14:40:06 jrajav, thanks 14:40:18 I am just looking for some good examples 14:40:55 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 so, a table based approach, if you don't merge the lists, seems to be faster 14:42:18 the result is something like ((1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0) (1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0) (0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0) (1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0)) 14:42:21 -!- qNemo is now known as qptain_Nemo 14:43:49 devin_: the main thing for me is the interactivity level when developing 14:44:07 not sure how to express that in an article, video are much better 14:44:20 Yeah, I am watching that video now. But I would like to high light that 14:44:50 wbooze [~wbooze@84.44.211.133] has joined #lisp 14:44:51 stassats: "table based approach"? 14:45:38 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-245.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:45:56 I guess he means 1 byte at a time rather than 1 bit 14:46:06 right 14:46:09 like a manual smart unrolling 14:46:33 (loop with rem do (setf (values x rem) (truncate x 256)) collect (aref *table* rem) while (plusp x)) 14:48:00 can you do the table based approach with using ldb/byte? 14:48:02 if you want even faster, but for a fixed amount of bytes: (list (aref *table* (ldb (byte 8 0) x)) (aref *table* (ldb (byte 8 8) x)) (aref *table* (ldb (byte 8 16) x))) 14:48:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:49:06 loop with a step of 8 and get the specs dynamically? 14:49:31 that's going to be slower 14:49:40 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.17.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:57 can ash 8 bits at a time and get the whole byte? 14:50:01 +you 14:50:18 ldb will use ash and logand under the hood 14:50:52 so why is doing that dynamically slower? 14:51:03 because it's dynamic 14:51:33 everybody knows that dynamic is slower than static 14:51:51 nd lisp is highly dynamic 14:52:23 i prefer a functional approach: (defun bitlist (x) (read-from-string (format nil "~A" (coerce (format nil "~B" x) 'list)))) 14:52:45 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.101] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 (coerce 1234567890 'bit-vector) ; fails 14:53:04 is it possible to add coercion rules in the system? 14:53:16 about 1.8 times slower than a static one for a 64-bit integer 14:53:40 dim: it is not possible 14:54:04 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:54:05 too bad, because it looks like about what we're doing 14:54:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:28 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:34 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@isr-dhcp-14.isr.uc.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:10 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:28 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:54 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:00:54 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-150-021.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:18 devin_: something non-lispers seem to grasp is the issue one tends to have with singleton instances. hey often create a static variable, even though they realize that they may want to have multiple versions running next to each other. with let, you can shadow the value of a special variable, thus removing some of the burdens attached to using a public static variable in, say, Java, without any additional code overhead (and 15:01:18 ad-hoc measurements, you don't really have extra execution overhead either). perhaps that could be something you can show. 15:01:23 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@84.44.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:02:44 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 15:06:43 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:06:49 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:16 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 15:12:07 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:15:06 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.158.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:23:16 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:06 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:51 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:25:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:25:46 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.211] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 15:27:06 Joreji [~thomas@91.143.80.217] has joined #lisp 15:28:35 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:32:13 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:44 root__ [~bom@198.187.30.190] has joined #lisp 15:32:49 -!- root__ [~bom@198.187.30.190] has left #lisp 15:33:10 If I invoke (COMPILE nil '(lambda (x) (* x Z))) it doesn't let you pass an environment within which Z is defined and it doesn't create a closure - eg:(setf (fdefinition 'func) (let ((Z 100)) (compile nil '(lambda (x) (* x Z))))) (func 10) ---> FAIL Z is unbound. 15:33:40 Is there any reason why I can't augment COMPILE to accept an environment? 15:34:04 grincel [grincel@bucaneers.enseirb-matmeca.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 because it's expensive to maintain the environment at run-time 15:34:28 Or any reason why I shouldn't augment COMPILE to accept an environment. 15:35:09 otherwise the lexical environment can be compiled away 15:35:33 variables put into registers, instruction constants, or discarded completely 15:35:40 stassats: Yeah, I appreciate that part. 15:37:07 The reason why I ask is because I'm thinking about automatically compiling forms in EVAL. This is well-trodden territory. Are there any big problems with doing this? 15:37:45 other than it's slow, not really 15:37:56 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 sbcl used to do that not too long ago. It only had a compiler, so it compiled everything. 15:38:33 prxq: it does it now too 15:38:34 prxq: 'used to do that"? What do they do now? 15:38:44 except for really simple cases, which it did before as well 15:39:10 drmeister: ...there's the answer :-) 15:39:13 drmeister: eval M-. 15:39:57 the interpreter can be enabled by modifying sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* 15:42:17 I have a glacially slow s-exp walking interpreter and I'm finishing up the compiler. I have to keep running the ECL code to points where it crashes and then fix/enhance my code and then repeat. The cycle is about 10-15 minutes and it's driving me nuts. 15:42:49 ECL fixed this problem by implementing a byte-code interpreter - it's pretty big and I don't have the time to do this right now. 15:43:25 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|phone 15:43:47 On the other hand, ECL compiles to C and then has to run a C compiler. I have something better, I "just-in-time" compile on the fly - so I could integrate the compiler into eval once the compiler is installed. 15:44:36 The problem is bootstrapping. If I compile forms as they are read in, invariably a macro is invoked that requires a function that hasn't been loaded yet. 15:44:38 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- sirmacik [sirmacik@unaffiliated/sirmacik] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- joneshf [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@fsf/member/insomniasalt] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:44:39 -!- hohum_ [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 15:45:09 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kidkuveyjmoojrdz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:19 What is a good way to solve this - or do I just have to slog through with my interpreter. 15:45:34 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 insomniaSalt [~milan@fsf/member/insomniasalt] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 hohum_ [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 mm... 15:45:41 adelgado1 [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 sirmacik [sirmacik@unaffiliated/sirmacik] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 joneshf [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 you can just implement eval using compile, (defun eval (f) (funcall (compile nil (list 'lambda '() f)))) or something ... 15:46:23 assuming you have a proper compile function 15:46:57 zorkmoid: I can do that, but then I run into the problem with macros that require functions that haven't been loaded yet. 15:47:09 drmeister: hm. i see 15:47:19 drmeister: can't you shake that out during compile? 15:47:49 Ideally, you want to load the entire system into the interpreter - then compile the entire system - that is what I'm doing now. 15:49:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-211-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:57 By "shake that out" do you mean "re-order the functions so that they are loaded in the proper order". Possibly - but it means rearranging the ECL source code. I've been loath to make any changes to the ECL CL code other than inserting #xxx- and #xxx+ guards because there is wisdom in the order that forms are laid out that I might not appreciate at this point. 15:50:30 -!- grincel [grincel@bucaneers.enseirb-matmeca.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:34 drmeister: well, something like that 15:50:36 It may be time to do this now given the different approaches to interpretation/compilation that ECL took and I have taken. 15:51:02 it is not pretty .. but ... 15:51:12 The ECL source code is mostly lifted from older lisps. 15:51:34 as is most lisp code out there :-) 15:52:26 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:52:31 kcl was i think the only attempt to do a clean "rewrite" 15:53:05 ehu [~ehu@109.38.61.153] has joined #lisp 15:53:16 ECL is derived from kcl. 15:53:32 drmeister: you could just load in all forms in cons tree form, and then compile then only when you need them. 15:53:58 so all definitions are accessible, you just compile them when they are needed. 15:54:32 drmeister: ah, didn't know, cool 15:57:30 Ener2 [~enerccio@158.194.169.56] has joined #lisp 15:57:44 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:57:54 hello, I was wondering how can I get the lowest class type of an instance 15:57:54 After reading about closures in Successful Lisp, I liked the idea so much I wanted to try it with a macro. How is this, stylistically: http://paste.lisp.org/+2WRK/1 15:57:54 Ener2, memo from pjb: it's possible; google cll for deflex or defglobal. In CL you can create "lexical" globals using define-symbol-macro. 15:58:24 meyersh: pretty bad 15:59:02 meyersh: CL has structures and classes 15:59:33 prxq: I'll have to think on how I'd implement something like that. It's just-in-time compilation. 15:59:52 prxq: It's an interesting idea... 16:01:00 I would like to find exact type of instance 16:01:11 stassats: I thought it made a good example of the flexibility of the language. Is the way I'm naming the functions (string-upcase (concatenate....)) a "normal" idiom? 16:02:00 no 16:02:18 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:30 you can just use (setf (something foo) new-value) to set, and (something foo) to get the value of foo 16:03:18 that is the normal way of doing things, (set-something-value foo) is silly ... 16:03:49 Ener2: lowest? 16:03:52 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:04:16 -!- adelgado1 is now known as adelgado 16:04:22 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:04:24 zorkmoid: I agree. :) 16:04:47 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:12 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.158.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:49 meyersh: yes, flexibility means being able to do things which are not useful 16:05:55 also, the code is qutie .. well, weird, why would you do this? 16:06:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 Ener2: class-of. 16:07:15 dioxirane [~paname@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 16:07:19 -!- Xizor [~Xizor@130.236.76.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:33 I did this while trying to wrap my mind around the utility of Macro's. The body of the macro (two functions that get/set a closure) is irrevelevent. It could just as well be two functions that load and save some state, or another *useful* feature. What I'm focusing on is the part where I'm tearing up the macro parameters. 16:07:49 -!- dioxirane [~paname@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 16:08:09 Ener2: or type-of 16:08:28 For instance, I'm not sure how well I'm doing at converting a symbol to a string, and back to a symbol. Maybe that's not idiomatic. 16:09:01 meyersh: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html 16:09:12 meyersh: that shows a nice example of using macros 16:09:29 the way you used is susceptible to non-standard reader cases 16:09:41 meyersh: contemporary practice is to try and avoid generating symbols. The user can type it in. 16:10:18 zorkmoid: Thank you, I've added that link to my reading list. 16:10:26 but those will give true even if class is only subclass of that type, no? 16:10:45 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:10:50 (alexandria:symbolicate 'get- 'x '-value) 16:10:51 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:11 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:11:14 Ener2: class cannot be a subclass of a type, only of a class 16:11:26 ah, so types are separate? 16:11:51 Ener2: what are you trying to do? 16:12:02 yrk [~user@50.133.134.220] has joined #lisp 16:12:06 pkhuong: Ok; that makes sense. :) 16:12:09 -!- yrk [~user@50.133.134.220] has quit [Changing host] 16:12:09 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:12:10 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:12:29 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:05 maybe time to go home, grab a beer, and chill.. 16:13:34 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:13:58 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e59.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 I am trying to build some autogenerated lisp code, which should call one routine exactly when class is of the type 16:14:16 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:14:41 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:14:50 when class is of the type? 16:15:19 i doubt you're using MOP, so, i gather that you're confused 16:15:24 splittist [~splittist@99-21.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:15:24 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:47 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:16:27 Ener2: can you be more specific? 16:17:10 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 16:17:13 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:28 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:18:22 stassats: I think I figured out really simple way 16:18:31 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:18:33 I will just use normal method resolution 16:18:42 which will class the most specific variant 16:18:44 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:19:05 prxq: What you are suggesting is a sort of minimal compilation of the top-level of forms and deferring compilation of forms within them until they are themselves evaluated. Are there any CL implementations that take this approach? 16:19:32 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:20:21 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:20:55 antgreen [~green@207.112.118.212] has joined #lisp 16:21:29 snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has joined #lisp 16:21:44 jarmond [~user@137.205.238.28] has joined #lisp 16:22:45 Doug201 [48e53fd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.229.63.216] has joined #lisp 16:23:12 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.139.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:23:29 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.77.168.165] has joined #lisp 16:24:51 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:55 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.38.61.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:30:05 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:15 k0001_ [~k0001@host178.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:36:34 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined 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16:56:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:57:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:59:34 ikki [~ikki@187.208.230.14] has joined #lisp 17:01:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.230.14] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:36 ikki [~ikki@187.208.230.14] has joined #lisp 17:02:44 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:52 tinchodias [~Adium@193.51.236.176] has joined #lisp 17:04:06 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:10:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.125.243] has joined #lisp 17:10:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.125.243] has quit [Changing host] 17:10:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:12:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9449.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:12:34 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:12:59 so I wonder guys 17:13:02 how do you feel 17:13:09 when I wrap a c++ library/binds 17:13:21 should I follow lisp conventions or original c++ conventions as class names? 17:13:42 whichever makes more sense 17:14:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:33 -!- dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 17:15:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:17:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:05 Ener2: if you wrap the c++ library without lispifying the semantics, use the original names so that it is easy to use the original documentation 17:19:37 lispifying semantics? 17:19:50 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:20 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:47 Ener2: yes. if the wrapper is just a wrapper making the library accesible from lisp, then it is not lispified 17:21:01 Ener2: but if the wrapper does some things to appease lisp, then using lisp names is better, too. 17:21:24 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:21:55 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:22:27 dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 17:23:13 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:24:04 _predictable_ convention conversion 17:24:31 well AnimationData -> animation-data 17:24:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.77.168.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:14 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:25 nothing more annoying than using bindings that are hard to correlate with the original semantics, and do things randomly .. e.g. (set-foo ..) and something else is (setf (bar ..) ...) 17:26:03 Ener2: that would be predictable and lispy as long as it's consistent 17:26:34 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:27:36 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:33:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:36:56 -!- w37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:19 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 17:39:22 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@122.231.27.172] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:39:40 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:43 it will be generated by a script 17:44:26 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:24 Odyessus 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18:38:20 -!- tinchodias [~Adium@193.51.236.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:33 A general observation - documentation in code is often riddled with incorrect information. I assume it gets out of date and then it lies about what the code is doing. I just got bit by this working with someone else's code. This is why I use descriptive variable names and function names and document only when it's absolutely necessary. 18:40:24 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.21] has joined #lisp 18:40:25 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.21] has quit [Changing host] 18:40:25 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:41:52 Bike_ [~Glossina@65-100-34-217.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 drmeister: yes, the proper thing to do when you say is "I should really document this" is actually say "Can I rewrite it so that it can be understood without documentation" rather than just writing a comment 18:42:40 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-245.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 why not do both? 18:43:20 stassats: because there are no tests for incorrect comments 18:43:22 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-34-217.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:36 jasom: That's a good way to put it. 18:43:42 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:44 are there tests for hard to understand code? 18:43:51 -!- devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has left #lisp 18:44:11 stassats: no, but at least hard to understand code isn't actively lying to you, unlike out-of-date comments 18:44:16 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:45:00 sometimes the answer to "can I write it in a way that is more understandable" is "no" or "Not for a reasonable cost" so you comment it; but you should at least think before hitting the semi-colon 18:45:59 docstrings are different, since they are inteded to be read, at least some of the time, by someone not currently looking at the code. They also should document the external-interface rather than the internal workings 18:46:20 I've broken all of these rules before and I often regret it... 18:46:55 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 18:46:58 alteratively when I'm reading sufficiently storied code, I just ignore all the comments 18:47:07 since they are as likely to be wrong as helpful 18:47:29 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-173-248.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:47:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:48:52 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 18:50:43 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:51:05 The ECL process-lambda-list documentation says it takes a lambda-list sexp and a CONTEXT which can be one of MACRO, FTYPE, FUNCTION, METHOD or DESTRUCTURING-BIND. Then deeeeep in clos it passes T as the context. T? What does T mean? I look at the code and it will happily accept T as the context and it bypasses all of the context specific code and generates some sort of default behavior. 18:52:01 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:10 -!- lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:28 If I didn't manage to perfectly replicate their process-lambda-list behavior then my default behavior is probably different than their default behavior. (sigh) It's not like the comments I put in my code are gospel either. 18:52:50 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 18:53:40 dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:54:05 -!- Ener2 [~enerccio@158.194.169.56] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121027181922]] 18:55:58 lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.169] has joined #lisp 18:56:14 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1221-245.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:25 hi. i'm having trouble building a Windows EXE via Wine with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die. when i run it with Linux sbcl, it works ad i get a working binary. when i run it with "wine sbcl.exe" of the same sbcl version, instead of working as usual, it now gives an error. i'm having trouble even getting a backtrace: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135771 18:57:01 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:58:26 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-110-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 wouldn't using windows be preferable? 19:00:30 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:47 -!- dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 19:01:27 what does (values *default-pathname-defaults*) even mean? 19:01:54 ugh. i just noticed that. this is a little old. 19:02:05 anyway, commenting out that line doesn't work. 19:02:38 stassats: no, i would have to buy windows then, and use it. I already know that Wine can cross-compile binaries that run on both Wine and real Windows, so that's what i want to do . 19:03:00 can't you ask somebody with windows? 19:03:13 to do what 19:03:21 to do whatever 19:03:28 as in make a binary for me? 19:03:38 if that's what you want 19:04:09 no, that's a pain. i used to do it for all my games until SBCL became capable of cross-compiling with wine 19:05:14 stassats: my guess is that something is wrong with my build procedure this time around, and that it's a smaller problem to solve than finding a copy of windows 19:05:20 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:05:44 i don't see a backtrace in that paste 19:06:06 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:06:10 and if you're using it for windows, why are you using such an old sbcl? 19:08:59 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-76-121-226-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 19:09:31 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:11:00 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:03 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has quit [Quit: pinupgeek] 19:11:18 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:12:33 dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 19:15:58 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:23 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:22 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:20:20 -!- jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:20:35 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:21:46 drmeister: the reason why you can't add random parameter to standard functions, is that (handler-case (apply (function compile) nil ' 19:22:10 drmeister: the reason why you can't add random parameter to standard functions, is that (handler-case (apply (function compile) nil '(lambda () x) e) (program-error () 'ha!)) --> HA! 19:22:18 is a conforming program. 19:22:50 If your compile takes e and doesn't produce the program-error, then your implementaiton won't be conforming. 19:23:29 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:23:32 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 19:23:32 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 19:23:32 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:23:42 You can add &key parameters when the function is specified to take a &key parameter, since it's always possible to pass :allow-other-keys. 19:24:01 You can also define a super-set of the CL language: 19:24:35 (funcall (let ((z 42)) (system:with-environment ((x z)) (compile nil '(lambda () z))))) --> 42 19:25:02 s/lambda () z/lambda () x/ 19:25:32 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:25:50 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:13 -!- dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:28:05 nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:40 Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192029.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 pjb: Thank-you. I'll avoid "enhancing" standard functions in CL. 19:28:53 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:29:06 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:49 pjb: I'll just do what I should be doing - define enhanced functions in the system package and use those. 19:31:41 drmeister: you can even wrap those enhanced functions by ones that only support the standard list and use default values for the other parameters. 19:32:11 drmeister: then, if the compiler is set to allow inlining of functions, you can directly call the extended ones. 19:32:15 by inlining the wrappers. 19:33:50 Actually, I have a question on that. If I have a function COMPILE-WITHIN-ENVIRONMENT in my "CORE" package and I export it's symbol and in the COMMON-LISP package I (use-package :CORE) now the COMMON-LISP has the COMPILE-WITHIN-ENVIRONMENT symbol visible in a way that it shouldn't be - correct? 19:34:16 yes. 19:34:35 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:44 you should import all the symbols from the CORE package and re-export them from CL. 19:35:29 So I need to explicitly import symbols into COMMON-LISP and not USE-PACKAGE unless only allowed COMMON-LISP symbols are exported by that package. 19:35:44 ehu: Thanks - that answers my question. 19:36:00 welcome 19:36:10 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:36:35 I was going to do a bit symbol cleanup using export/import later. Should I be worrying about it now? 19:36:45 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:46 "BIG symbol cleanup" 19:38:08 I figured I'd use DO-XXX-SYMBOLS to figure out where everything is and what's missing and generate some code to import/export everything later. 19:38:34 drmeister: not really, as long as you don't have any other packages than CORE that you code into -- that is, other packages which should contain real Common Lisp code. 19:38:37 I haven't even created a COMMON-LISP package yet - I just work in my CORE package. 19:38:49 then you need not worry. 19:39:08 Good - I like problems I don't need to worry about right now. 19:40:00 drmeister: you can have any symbol you want in the CL package. Only the export list of the CL package is specified. 19:40:39 Of course, it's cleaner, if your CL package contains only the exported symbols. But you can have other symbols, it's conforming. 19:40:40 pjb: Ah, well that makes things a little easier still. 19:40:47 dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 19:41:00 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-68-135.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:42:00 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:26 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:43:45 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@5357918A.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 19:43:45 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@5357918A.cm-6-8c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:30 -!- p_l|phone is now known as p_l 19:45:34 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-49.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:37 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:47:43 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:49:54 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-110-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:50:20 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-113.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:51:14 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:51:51 Also, I'm a bit bewildered by the packages in ECL. They have "SYSTEM" and "EXT" . Is there any particular reason to split low level code into two packages? 19:52:08 ext is not low level, it's extensions. 19:52:21 and sbcl has a lot of packages, named sb-{something}. 19:52:23 drmeister: "system" would be the core, "ext" would be the user-visible extensions to standard 19:52:51 also, actually the core is iirc referred more often as "SI" 19:53:02 (In ECL, that is) 19:53:04 for system-implementation. 19:53:20 ccl just seems to dump internals and extensions alike in "CCL" and it's a bit confusing 19:53:28 -!- dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:59:21 pjb: You are correct - the package is called "SI" and it has the nickname "SYSTEM" - I said "SYSTEM" because it was more descriptive. 20:00:59 Anyways, system was reserved before, but not in the standard, so I would advise to use drmeister-cl-implementation drmeister-cl-extensions etc or something like that ;-) 20:01:02 dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 20:01:24 Is a single, top-level package namespace antiquated - in light of nested packages like in Python? It's easier to work with but does the CL community run into collisions with package names? 20:01:33 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:02:19 Somewhat yes. Naming them edu.temple.chem.drmeister.cl.implementation edu.temple.chem.drmeister.cl.extensions etc would be the best. 20:02:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:23 we're hoping to make package-local-nicknames supported everywhere someday 20:03:36 making long package names easier to deal with 20:03:55 The periods are just part of the name right? In my implementation of packages they are nothing more than part of the name. 20:03:56 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:59 drmeister: Symbolics CL had nice extensions for that, but unfortunately they aren't in the standard 20:04:02 yes 20:04:18 special handling of periods is possible in some implementations, though 20:04:33 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 20:04:35 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:43 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:47 newer versions of asdf have special handling for / as well 20:04:51 slime's repl would be default abbreviate those to implementation and extensions, for an easy one 20:05:02 kcj_ [~casey@203-173-220-75.dialup.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 Package-local-nicknames - that is a way to give packages nicknames on the local system? 20:05:29 drmeister: nicknames when *current-package* is bound to a particular value only 20:05:45 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:06:15 something that Symbolics CL had, in a way 20:06:18 I seem to recall that I'm not the only evil user in here; anyone know how to get C-] to work lime M-. when using evil and slime together? 20:06:26 s/lime/like 20:06:29 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:39 Thanks, I'll worry about it latter. Right now I just want to achieve ANSI compliance. 20:06:56 Right now - meaning in the next couple of months. 20:07:04 Hah! Mind the PROG2 bug, then. d-: 20:07:08 -!- splittist [~splittist@99-21.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:07:10 And speed - I want speed. 20:07:46 drmeister: you're aware of the intricacies of the dynamic environment and the problems you can have with closures, I hope? 20:08:01 it took ABCL a loong time to get those right and be able to run Maxima code correctly. 20:08:03 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:14 hey what is the status of ABCL with regard to sdl and opengl on Android? is it possible to port my games to android? 20:09:31 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:35 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 dto: well, at the moment we don't have a stipped-down-enough version of ABCL to run on android, unfortunately. We're looking for people to help assess the impact. 20:11:28 ehu: at some point i will be getting a tablet and i will be able to devote time/energy to helping 20:12:12 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 20:13:33 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192029.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:13:36 ehu: I think I've got dynamic environments and closures completely figured out. I'll find out when I try and get Maxima code running. I have designs on using Maxima to automagically generate analytical first and second derivatives of arbitrary functions at compile time for non-linear optimization. 20:13:51 dto: Next thing I know you'll be asking about SBCL on ARM? 20:14:04 I do it with Mathematica already but nothing would give me more pleasure than kicking Mathematica to the curb. 20:16:04 This is one of the really cool things about what I'm doing. I'm using LLVM as the back-end - so it will generate native code for any instruction set LLVM supports - and programmers will have the ability to generate LLVM-IR themselves that will be portable to all machines LLVM supports. 20:17:02 LLVM-IR can also be assembled to C code and compiled that way. 20:17:12 nyef: i dont think so. why? 20:17:18 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:35 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 ehu: What were the problems with dynamic environments and lexical closures that were exposed when running Maxima? 20:18:16 ehu: depending on events of next week, I might have some extra time in future to get ABCL on Dalvik 20:18:25 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:19:04 p_l: great! we'd love to help you where-ever possible. 20:19:38 drmeister: maxima uses lots of special variables, 20:19:50 dto: Well, you're already asking about other lisps on android systems, SBCL/ARM is another plausible angle, once it actually gets into usable shape. 20:20:02 so, it exposes bugs in places where you forget to "unwind" the dynamic scope of variables 20:21:03 nyef: oh i see. i didn't realize 20:21:05 nyef: SBCL/arm, to be "deployable" (i.e. not just "let's run normal binaries by hijacking Android's image) would need some extra infrastructure work 20:21:09 ehu: Got it - it is tricky, tricky stuff. 20:21:21 i'll try to help if i can/ 20:21:37 if response to this game is good, i would love to port a game to android and see what happens 20:21:55 p_l: Yes, it would. But would need to actually WORK first, and it doesn't, yet. 20:22:15 well, CCL actually works on android 20:22:20 so, why not ask about it? 20:22:29 nyef: yeah, but the two (three?) biggest issues would be independent enough to work on 20:22:48 stassats: it's not "deployable". It runs on linux on arm, not on android (there's difference) 20:22:49 peterhil` [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw2-58c37e-80.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:22:55 p_l: wrong 20:23:16 drmeister: abcl had issues with parameter arguments being special 20:23:19 stassats: can I link it as NDK module in an application running under system_server? 20:23:21 waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has joined #lisp 20:23:21 (as an example) 20:23:31 p_l: what is system_server? 20:23:50 drmeister: also, abcl had issues with closures where parameters were closed over. 20:23:54 stassats: android runtime. Not the underlying's host OS (because actually it's not necessary for it to be Linux) 20:24:01 p_l: yes, you can 20:24:10 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e06@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:24:21 pjb: do you have clall warmed up? 20:24:24 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-156-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:28 stassats: haven't seen mentions of building a shared library out of it yet 20:24:33 (or static, even) 20:24:43 you can run a binary 20:24:44 I'm wondering what each implementation returns for this syntax: #b101010. 20:25:01 with the period? 20:25:10 stassats: that's the "running on the underlying host OS bypassing Android" bit 20:25:10 yes. 20:25:26 p_l: i don't understand what your complaining about 20:25:30 Shouldn't that be 42 and a reader error for a stray period? 20:25:42 ehu: The LOOP code I'm using (ECL's loop2.lsp which they got from Symbolics) passes parameter arguments that are special. 20:25:58 nyef: should it? opinions (in the form of the implementations to which i have ready access) differ 20:26:05 stassats: it means it runs on linux/arm, not android, and coincidentially majority (but not all) Android deployments happen to use both linux and ARM chips underneath 20:26:08 "The consequences are undefined if the token immediately following the #B does not have the syntax of a binary (i.e., radix 2) rational." does having the . make it not a binary rational? 20:26:28 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-173-248.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:26:32 p_l: are you saying it should be rewritten in Java? 20:26:35 i don't understand you 20:26:37 Period in potential number syntax indicates decimal, doesn't it? 20:26:45 stassats: the same way there were instructions on how to have full Debian install side-by-side inside Android phone 20:27:19 stassats: no, I want a lisp I could use to at least use for "Native Activity" mode (available since Android api level 8) 20:27:25 it's not the same, you can click an app, it will start swank, hunchentoot or whatever you want 20:27:54 Bike: that seems like a good out 20:28:12 p_l: so write it, and stop belittling ccl 20:28:21 but, i got 101010 in both ccl and sbcl, though you probably tried that already 20:28:46 that requires, outside of supporting apropriate instruction set (there's armv5+, armv7, mips and x86 in the wild) and memory/gc tweaks, also things like linking as shared library 20:29:39 stassats: not belittling, just pointing out that saying "CCL supports android" is a bit like the lie we feed non-university students of physics about lifting force :) 20:29:48 Bike: lispworks signals an error 20:30:34 p_l: that's just FUD, ccl works just fine on android phones and tablets you can buy in a store 20:30:45 too bad it doesn't conform to your definition of "perfect" 20:31:20 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:31:24 yeah, the decimal point makes it either a decimal integer or a float, so it's undefined 20:31:46 stassats: I'm affraid non-tech people won't get that it doesn't mean *all* devices. 20:31:53 Kruppe` [~user@cn-nat2-uw-129-97-124-17.net.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:32:03 ehu: or that they can forget accessing android apis 20:32:04 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:32:32 ehu: what do non-tech people need a CL implementation for? 20:33:17 stassats, to run the excellent software, of course 20:33:32 *weirdo* late to the party 20:33:37 stassats: n.b. - if certain things go right, I'm going to try working (paid work, even!) on better support for non-jvm languages on android including, yes, CCL 20:33:42 stassats: write programs? I haven't looked at any serious instruction set in 15 years. Don't have to. I just get the software and build my programs. 20:33:55 it works on galaxy s2, s3, nexus 7, i'm sure on other high end devices as well 20:34:01 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:34:07 won't be main focus, but still better access to some resources than otherwise 20:34:12 it's not worth even trying to run it on a phone for 50$, even if it supports it 20:34:49 My phone is an HTC One X -- no idea what ARM processor. 20:35:17 definitely not low end. 20:35:22 ehu: should work too 20:36:18 it says Arm Cortex A9.. which arm version is that and is it backward compatible? 20:36:24 i can't be bothered to touch java to add a simple output display from CCL, so that you can just start it and connect swank to it without using SDK or anything 20:36:39 ehu: ARMv7A 20:36:48 s2, s3, nexus 7 all have A9 20:36:51 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-229-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:37:08 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-229-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:24 k0001 [~k0001@186.153.72.248] has joined #lisp 20:39:34 optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:25 so who lives in boston and washington, I'm visiting both later in march, there's no lispy meetups to attend in the later parts of the month are there? 20:40:29 Xach: hi. 20:40:53 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host178.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:40:59 optikalmouse: hi there is a Boston lisp meeting here sometimes, ask Fare or Xach about it 20:42:10 I thought it was early in the month. doesnt the guy who wrote Land of Lisp live in one of those places? /me totally will bring his book to sign ;p 20:42:31 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:59 boston lisp meeting has... varied in its scheduling over time. 20:43:00 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:44:35 unlikely there is not a wide recent documentation about the "installation"/"use" of CCL on android, and seems missing any reference even in the official CCL's documentation. Maybe it's needed a better "documentation work". 20:44:53 Joreji__ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:10 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw2-58c37e-80.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:45:11 Joreji___ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:30 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:00 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 20:47:19 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:41 hi dto 20:48:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91.143.80.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:07 optikalmouse: conrad barski was in the DC area, not sure if he still is 20:48:28 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:49:37 I am in the boston area in two weeks 20:50:10 I am not anticipating a meeting then, though 20:50:22 make your own 20:50:30 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:50 Xach: hey i put a new game out :) maybe i'll port it to android someday 20:50:57 "Live and Let Lisp" meeting 20:52:29 Xach: Two weeks? I should be around at that time. 20:52:31 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:53 Sweet! 20:54:05 I'm in Waltham all week. 20:54:42 Xach: And I have a spare copy of http://www.amazon.com/Interactive-Programming-Environments-David-Barstow/dp/0070038856 (sans dust jacket) if you're interested. I can try to bring it with. 20:54:43 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:47 *pavelpenev* points out Conrad Barski is working on a racket book in the stylp of LoL. 20:55:51 pavelpenev: wow: documenting/writing about something is the hardest part of the work. 20:56:53 Xach: I'm in boston march 22-24 for libreplanet 2013 20:57:11 pavelpenev: no way :O do want 20:57:16 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:04 optikalmouse: http://nostarch.com/realmofracket out in may :) 20:58:15 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@66-87-143-37.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has joined #lisp 20:58:16 -!- pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@66-87-143-37.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has quit [Changing host] 20:58:16 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:59:47 -!- kcj_ [~casey@203-173-220-75.dialup.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: kcj_] 21:00:06 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:00:28 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:36 real mof racket? 21:00:41 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:00:54 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:59 What's next, Peninsula of Python? 21:02:12 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:49 Republic of Ruby 21:03:13 Free Socialist States of JavaScript. 21:03:23 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:29 Atoll of Ada 21:03:40 haha. 21:03:41 Federation of Factor 21:03:53 Sovereignty of Smalltalk 21:03:55 Swamp of Smalltalk 21:04:01 :-( 21:04:07 who here has programmed in Ada ? 21:04:07 let's stop right there before it gets crazy. there's no other cool washington or boston lispers? ;/ 21:04:08 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp 21:04:09 trick question 21:04:20 Empire of Erlang 21:04:21 *pavelpenev* immediately regrets mentioning the book :) 21:04:28 I'm a boston lisper but I'm not cool 21:04:31 optikalmouse: i'm like 45 minutes outside the city. 21:04:32 Concentration Camp of C++ 21:04:34 (bos) 21:04:48 -!- Kruppe` [~user@cn-nat2-uw-129-97-124-17.net.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:51 Gulag of D 21:04:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:05:03 surely you mean Go 21:05:13 Bondageshop of Go 21:05:14 Ghetto of Go 21:05:21 or Guile 21:05:25 orry i'll stop 21:06:06 dlowe: you are totally cool 21:06:26 I'm still a little hesitant to roam from waltham, though. 21:06:32 dto: cool, we can talk about lisp and free softwares if youre around, i'll be hanging near the harvard campus 21:07:08 hahvahd? 21:08:01 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:08:33 The 22nd - 24th is one of those periods when I'm not going to be in the Boston area, unfortunately. 21:08:42 Is paste.lisp.org broken? It shows no channels selectable. 21:09:00 it's not broken 21:09:50 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:29 optikalmouse: id be willing to meet up for coffee or something 21:11:38 where are you coming from 21:12:49 I don't have anything going on then, either. I can be at Harvard pretty easily 21:13:07 I'm pretty fond of Crema 21:13:10 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: n] 21:13:16 from toronto 21:13:25 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:09 man I cant wait to see boston and eat foods heh 21:14:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for I cant wait to see boston and eat foods heh. 21:14:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:48 Kruppe` [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:14:57 optikalmouse: famous for baked beans and cod 21:15:09 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:15:40 hmm... there's even a nice flight from SFO to BOS 21:15:44 might try one day 21:16:40 Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:17:28 dlowe, optikalmouse we could find a place to hang out 21:17:31 -!- Kruppe` is now known as Kruppe 21:17:33 Xach: I've only heard about the amount of good lobster 21:18:14 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:18:15 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:34 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 21:19:55 dto: I'm fond of Crema cafe 21:20:06 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:06 i dunno what its like but anything with caffeine is fine 21:20:45 caffeine IV drip :3 21:20:55 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:07 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:57 I would like an espressino :) 21:24:40 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:26:03 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-239-30.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:27 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:31 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:27:52 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-229-74.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:05 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-157-236.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 21:31:22 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:24 -!- dioxirane [~laciodrom@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:37:59 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:39:02 While looking to advance ABCL, we've identified we need to track more information. E.g. if a value is loaded into a register, we need to track what the end of the intended scope of that value is to be able to generate stack and register type-information. 21:39:10 does SBCL solve that problem? 21:39:20 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:39:25 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:26 (if it does, how?) 21:39:40 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:46:34 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 21:50:10 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:01 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:52:06 voidengineer [~sphorner@186-79-156-200.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #lisp 21:53:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:56:26 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:56:31 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-157-236.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:57:14 billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.249] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.249] has quit [Changing host] 21:57:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:00:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:18 optikalmouse: heh ... I was in Toronto, then Boston, then Toronto again in 2012 ... I live off the West Coast but was born in Halifax :) 22:01:53 zacts [6b041099@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.4.16.153] has joined #lisp 22:02:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:44 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:05:48 drewc: I think I met you a while ago at a toronto lisp meetup, doesnt the airfare kill the wallet? I'm lucky I got my workplace to pay for this boston trip :S :S 22:06:08 drewc: hi 22:06:20 (Boston was even Lisp related! Toronto is where ma Mère and my Da are located) 22:06:44 drewc: is your boat under panamax? 22:06:46 how does SBCL decide weather to use boxed vs unboxed values in any specific code section? 22:06:52 drewc: yeah, the first toronto lisp meetup ever? I was there, was it 2010? 22:08:54 speaking of which... 22:09:32 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-211-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:44 there hasn't been a lisp meeting this month -- not even a lisp dinner 22:10:47 stassats: http://goo.gl/maps/4YeyL <--- right there :) 22:11:19 that should fit in the panama canal, and you can go to boston that way 22:12:09 jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:12:10 stassats: yeah, it could, but I am not a, well, lets just say that I plan to go the wrong way from here to boston, the opposite way around the world. 22:12:37 do you have a spare ice-breaker? 22:13:27 no need, mine is the only type of boat that can be insured by llyods for the hull being 'ice breaker' 22:13:42 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 22:14:18 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 22:14:49 (it is also bullet proof, and stronger than reefs, and stronger than other hulls as well) 22:15:06 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-138-230-155.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:14 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:16:25 snearch [~snearch@89.204.138.106] has joined #lisp 22:16:30 *drewc* knows all about that planning to go the wrong way around the southern ocean. 22:16:40 k0001_ [~k0001@host170.186-125-119.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:16:54 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.138.106] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:19:00 though, heh. With global warming, the Northwest Passage happens to be open for at least a month per year ... So could sail the right way around yet on the North side of the Americas ... hrm ... an issue with being a sailor and a lisper ... all about old school yet create the new school. 22:19:40 -!- k0001 [~k0001@186.153.72.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:19:48 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.230.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:29:03 -!- jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 22:29:35 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:32:00 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-157-236.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 22:32:11 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 22:32:18 drewc: yeah I think it was 2010-ish, I havent been to a meetup in forever, def need to go to the next one 22:33:10 drewc: beware malay & somalian pirates 22:33:22 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 22:33:22 optikalmouse: there has not been a meetup here in a long time either, so I should likely organize one. Actually planning on having the next one on my yacht in False Creek 22:34:29 Fare: indeed ... and actually I want to go to eden^Wethiopia which means Suez ... which means the most pyrated spot in the whole world. 22:35:52 doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:15 redscare [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has joined #lisp 22:36:22 abessinia 22:36:52 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.119] has joined #lisp 22:37:05 can anyone recommend an html templating library other than html-template? one with more modern features like inheritance? 22:37:18 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e1ae.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: remote hosed the connection] 22:37:52 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:37:58 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:03 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@86.171.15.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:05 redscare: I use YACLML which has TAL .. but then again, inheritance is not so modern, so really I have no idea. 22:38:35 just use cl-who 22:38:41 drewc: thanks. do you like yaclml? I was looking into it but it seems like there is almost no documentation.. 22:39:09 optikalmouse: I do use cl-who, but some of the more boiler-plate html would be nice to move out to templates 22:39:55 ramus: ?? http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/docs/yaclml/ 22:40:07 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 22:40:45 *pavelpenev* really likes madnificent's sexml. 22:40:52 redscare: I've used macros to do that and it's ugly and I dont like doing it so I ended up with long functions :/ 22:40:54 redscare: 'like' is an odd word ... yaclml is a coins, sometimes it is heads, sometimes it is tails 22:41:13 -!- Yinne [~Knirr@c-e042e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:55 redscare: https://gitorious.org/poetry-collab/poetry-collab/blobs/master/poetry-collab.lisp#line72 22:42:13 -!- voidengineer [~sphorner@186-79-156-200.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:30 *drewc* stopped using cl-who in 2003 and started using YACLML ... so has that coin in his 'purse' and 10 years later, still keeping it rather then spending it. 22:43:32 OR : I like lisp, not the cl-who language on top of CL ;) 22:43:45 drewc, I too switched some years ago.. really like yaclml 22:43:54 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 22:44:25 redscare1 [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has joined #lisp 22:44:39 adeht: I like it save for when I do not like it :) macros are, well, macros and can be a wee bit 'strange' for 'dynamic' coding stuff :) 22:45:07 drewc: thanks for the link, guess I'll give yaclml another look. 22:45:22 hello! i found this in sbcl source (shortened), can someone explain me this? (defun row-major-aref (a i) (row-major-aref a i)) 22:45:42 nan_: compiler handles row-major-aref forms specially 22:45:54 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 22:46:04 Bike: oh thanks! 22:46:32 nan_: when the compiler sees (row-major-aref a i) it substitutes it with machine code 22:46:33 nan_: M-. should show you the deftransform 22:46:40 adeht: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135781 <--- in my current 2013 code for the app that I started lisping on! :) 22:46:56 (defun row-major-aref (a i) (row-major-aref a i)) has to be defined so that you can do (funcall 'row-major-aref ...) with 22:47:00 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:27 nyef_ [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:29 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:36 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 the (row-major-aref a i) inside it will be substituted with the implementation, and because the compiler is not involved during FUNCALL, it uses a function 22:49:35 Bike: yes i am reading it now, stassats: thanks for detailed explanation! 22:50:02 or so that you can pass #'row-major-aref around 22:50:26 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:50:44 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:51:05 We've had the occasional bug in SBCL where something looks like a function but has no obvious definition, and it turns out that it's a source transform or other compiler magic for which someone forgot to define such an "interpreter stub". 22:51:39 run-time stub 22:52:00 Whatever. Still a stub. 22:53:59 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:54:05 drewc, weird stuff :) 22:54:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:46 -!- redscare1 [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:57:33 -!- zacts [6b041099@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.4.16.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:13 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:52 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:02:07 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:02:14 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 23:02:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:03:21 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:37 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:04:34 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@106.190.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:04:36 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:05:59 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:06:34 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-68-135.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:18 adeht: it is so I can do ':activate ((h1 :style "display:inline-block;")))' in my DEFINE-LAYERS thing ... so turning macros into functions ... which is the opposite of what I am used to :) 23:07:52 redscare [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has joined #lisp 23:10:20 zacts [4329016e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.41.1.110] has joined #lisp 23:10:28 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Quit: Headed home.] 23:10:47 I see.. what's define-layers 23:11:00 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:51 Magic. Plain and simple magic. 23:12:44 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:13:47 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:55 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:59 arrk13 [~arrakis24@dslb-188-109-205-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:17 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:15:05 why is it, that so many lisp functions take 2 element lists as arguments, and not directly cons pairs? 23:15:22 so many lisp functions? like what? 23:15:40 like let, make-array, etc. 23:16:03 make-array doesn't take 2 element lists 23:16:07 let is not a function 23:16:16 redscare [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has joined #lisp 23:16:43 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.189.117.124] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:11 i am trying to decide what is the best way to design functions that take coordinates as parameters. 23:17:25 Coordinates in 2-space? 23:17:42 vectors and matrices 23:17:59 i would tend to make those coordinates in form of (x . y), but i cant find any lisp functon that usually does something like that. 23:18:02 have two functions, one which takes a structure of coordinates, another one which takes coordinates 23:18:05 yes, jsut simple coordinates. 23:18:22 clhs MAKE-VECTOR 23:18:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for MAKE-VECTOR. 23:18:29 it's make-array 23:18:30 clhs VECTOR 23:18:30 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for VECTOR. 23:18:32 and vector 23:18:35 ... 23:18:37 clhs make-sequence 23:18:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_seq.htm 23:18:45 clhs vector 23:18:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm 23:18:50 hmm. 23:18:53 well, that's a funny way to be case-sensitive. 23:19:14 Bike: why would anyone want to type it that way? 23:19:39 80s nostalgia? I'm just a bit surprised it doesn't work. 23:19:51 it's an equal hashtable 23:20:02 ah... 23:20:03 -!- Doug201 [48e53fd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.229.63.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:05 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:20:05 no, what I wanted to ask you, what would be the most lispy was to ask the used for such coordinates? i dont think that arrays are appropriate. 23:20:14 abeaumont [~abeaumont@30.190.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:20:34 well with vectors it would be easy to generalize to arbitrary dimensionality 23:21:08 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-211-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:10 i like (f x y ...) 23:21:12 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:47 If you specifically have a 2d space, why not use COMPLEX values? 23:22:53 i'd make a structure POINT 23:23:20 (f* point ...) and (f x y ...) 23:23:25 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.226] has joined #lisp 23:23:52 well, I am trying to make it look "lispy", so i instictively used just a cons pair first. I jsut wanted to ask why this is something that s rather rarely ised in lisp code (at least the code i looked at so far). 23:24:05 in scheme pairs are more iften used for this and that. 23:24:28 Because we happen to like having type information available to us? 23:24:38 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 23:24:52 conses are not the only structures in CL 23:25:24 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:26:30 why, for example, is the let-form not like this: (let ((x . 1) (y . 2))) but instead (let ((x 1) (y 2)). is there some more fundamental reasoning behind this, other to just avoid typing the dots? 23:27:31 That's a question to ask McCarthy, isn't it? 23:27:59 too late for that. ;) 23:28:02 arrk13, no fundamental reason.. just less clutter 23:28:20 arrk13, there's no speedup since the form is constant 23:28:39 not even infinitesimal :) 23:29:06 arrk13: because it's silly to have to type an extra dot? 23:29:33 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-25-207.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:51 that seems pretty fundamental to me 23:29:58 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-25-42.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:30:33 -!- masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:30:45 the question, why do you think that dotted pairs would be better? 23:30:57 okay, this was my initial question: using two element lists is more common that using dotted pairs. 23:31:03 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:37 because i can access the two pieces of information with (car pair) and (cdr pair) and dont have to go with (car pair) and (cadr pair). 23:31:53 for what? i don't know many things in cl which involve two-element lists 23:32:08 arrk13: in a special operator or a macro? 23:32:09 arrk13, check out Optima 23:32:20 just for some code Im writing involving 2d coordinates. 23:32:21 the cost is so negligible, you won't be able to measure it 23:32:23 also, destructuring-bind 23:32:41 also, x.let-start 23:32:45 star* 23:32:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:04 don't obsess over perf 23:33:16 just detect bottlenecks 23:33:40 you haven't written anything yet and longer you prematurely optimize, longer you get crappy code 23:33:49 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 23:33:55 I'm not, so please dont take my question very seriously, I am just curious about some of the design decisions that went into CL. 23:34:01 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:34:21 like nyef said, let syntax was originally designed back in lisp 1.0 23:34:28 i can't imagine anyone typing dotted-pairs in LET and not losing sanity for long 23:34:34 associated lists use dotted pairs 23:34:52 Bike: but i don't know who would use dotted pairs for it nowadays, even pg wouldn't 23:34:53 i think the main thing CL did there was make the (let (var) ...) convention standard for all the binding forms 23:34:53 yes, thats the only occasion I 23:35:02 arrk13, it's also easier to (sanely) extend the syntax of (a b) 23:35:08 met them in CL so far. 23:35:26 arrk13: and how many two-element lists have you met? not including syntax 23:35:36 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-157-236.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:14 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:36:20 basically any binding form is a two-element list. 23:36:29 that is syntax 23:37:13 okay. ;) 23:37:18 Bike: Lisp 1.0? Earlier than that! It was a thought experiment that was never intended for implementation, until someone insisted on ignoring his bosses advice... 23:37:19 and syntax has absolutely no reason to use irregular structures 23:37:40 you're right. thanks for trying to answer anyway. 23:38:00 and make-array's list can be up to array-rank-limit 23:40:00 and if make-array didn't have any additional keyword parameters, it would have been just a &rest list 23:40:53 -!- zacts [4329016e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.41.1.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:41:15 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@30.190.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:29 -!- arrk13 [~arrakis24@dslb-188-109-205-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 23:45:21 on lispworks, array-rank-limit is 4000, but call-arguments-limit is 2047 23:45:30 so you can't access such an array with AREF 23:45:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.77.168.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:23 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-97-180.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:46:33 (let ((dim (make-list (1- array-rank-limit) :initial-element 1))) (apply #'aref (make-array dim) (fill dim 0))) => Error: Last argument to apply is too long. 23:47:44 the only way to access the elements would be through row-major-aref 23:47:56 or displaced arrays? 23:48:38 or it would never happen because they're absurd limits? 23:48:41 the only direct way 23:49:09 whartung: why are they absurd? 23:49:20 4000 diminsions to an array? 23:49:43 yes, why not? 23:50:16 can you name a use case? where 4000 dimensions is either appropriate, or an array is the proper data structure for such a thing? 23:50:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:50:20 Next you'll be complaining about zero-dimensional arrays. 23:50:38 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@75.18.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:49 nyef: hey, those are useful :).. 23:50:57 Yes. Yes, they are. 23:51:06 whartung: it may present a natural way to express a problem 23:51:13 such as? 23:51:36 if you can't think of a problem, it doesn't mean there doesn't exists any 23:51:58 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 23:52:46 it won't be necessary 4000, but why make an arbitrary limit if you can make it large? 23:53:10 same reason all computer systems have "arbitrary limits" -- because they're limited. 23:53:44 now, why 4000 and not 4096 or some other binary inspired number, I can't say. 23:53:44 then they are not arbitrary 23:54:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-185.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:29 stassats, if you don't consider that arbitrary, what makes you think LW's limit is arbitrary? 23:54:41 adeht: i don't think it's arbitrary 23:54:45 i don't know its nature 23:54:48 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:55:17 adeht: but whartung proposes to impose some other limit should be used, now, that's arbitrary 23:55:40 stassats, I've seen no such proposal 23:56:27 i don't care for pedantic dissection of who said what 23:57:11 tenawa [~user@adsl-99-104-97-47.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:40 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:59:27 -!- waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Quit: leaving]