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02:20:37 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@116.202.208.24] has left #lisp 02:21:34 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:26:48 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.43.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:28:03 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:37 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:21 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:40 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:01 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p57B99B56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:35:59 -!- wolfish17 [~pr@ip70-181-113-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:36:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-157-248.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:36:39 Not strictly on topic, but I think this is worth supporting: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/376627045/lispcast-introduction-to-clojure-videos 02:38:29 delimax [~max@h212.121.232.68.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:38 -!- p_nathan [~user@98.145.116.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:44:14 -!- kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@softbank218115049016.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: kubatyszko] 02:45:42 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:46:06 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:10 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:57:44 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:57:44 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:58:58 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:59 sellout-, might want to mention that on #clojure if it hasn't been mentioned? 03:00:01 zbigniew [~zb@2600:3c02:e000:3::8] has joined #lisp 03:02:56 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:02 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:04:57 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 03:07:53 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:08:14 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:07 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.173.78] has joined #lisp 03:15:08 -!- linse [~marioooh@216.252.65.253] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 03:18:58 Sgeo: Those fools can find it themselves! 03:20:49 ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-180-230.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:18 pterygota [~user@172-10-32-200.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:49 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:16 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:16 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 03:30:17 quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has joined #lisp 03:31:58 Suppose I compile some DEFMACROs in A, use some of the DEFMACROS from A in file B and compile, and then use some of the macros from B in C. Does it make sense for C to work when using LOAD, but to fail when using COMPILE-FILE? 03:32:26 (I am using SBCL if that makes any difference.) 03:33:18 quadquad: what's the failure? 03:33:20 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:33:52 Bike: Ultimately that functions or variables are undefined, because it's interpreting macros from A to be functions. 03:35:46 quadquad: if the macros from A are defined by the time you compile C that shouldn't be happening. (if you're just compile-file-ing A without loading it it might be another story) 03:36:36 I'm actually using C-c C-k on A, then B, then C, and C fails. 03:36:48 but (load C) works, and (load (compile-file C)) fails 03:37:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:36 you sure it's macros from A that are the problem? that sounds more like there are things in C that should be eval-when'd but aren't. 03:37:59 Maybe I should show code :) 03:38:07 would help. 03:39:01 https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-algebraic-data-type/src 03:39:37 utilities -> cl-algebraic-data-type -> match are seem to compile fine. Then trying to compile examples fails 03:39:44 s/are// 03:43:25 (but loading examples.lisp is okay) 03:43:38 so you're getting an error like "maybe isn't defined in this scope" or suchlike, huh... 03:44:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:48 "The function CL-ALGEBRAIC-DATA-TYPE::%NOTHING is undefined." 03:45:04 This occurs in the expansion of DEFINE-CONSTANT inside of DEFDATA 03:45:34 or, rather, it occurs in the expansion of DEFDATA, which is inside DEFINE-CONSTANT, but DEFINE-CONSTANT doesnt seem to be getting expanded 03:47:39 Hm, maybe DEFINE-CONSTANT is getting expanded. But the definition of %NOTHING isn't yet compiled, or something. %NOTHING gets defined by the DEFSTRUCT 03:47:50 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 03:49:12 CrazyEddy [~parodize@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:51:40 foreignFunction1 [~niksaak@94.27.88.150] has joined #lisp 03:52:02 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:52:27 -!- foreignFunction1 is now known as foreignFunction 03:52:28 indeed. ... when will people stop abusing defconstant? First this trick that might lead to weirdness with separate compilation, and now compounded by hiding the evaluation time issue. I suggest (defvar *foo* (make-foo)) (define-symbol-macro foo (load-time-value *foo* t)). 03:53:17 ah. defconstant evaluates the value at compile time. 03:53:46 (at which point %nothing doesn't exist) 03:53:57 why doesnt it exist yet? 03:54:36 quadquad: the constructor is known to exist, but isn't in the image yet. 03:54:42 ah okay 03:54:55 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55:04 (load-time-value (the foo *foo*) t) will do better on SBCL. 03:55:08 defstruct's compile-time side effects are making the type known and stuff, not defining everything for the functions etc 03:55:55 pkhuong: also, i used that DEFINE-CONSTANT after someone convinced me it was a good idea. but i'll revert my position back to "i don't like that DEFCONSTANT" 03:56:00 but defconstant is allowed to evaluate the value at compile time since, well, it's not supposed to be something like a struct object, i guess 03:56:25 s/DEFCONSTANT/DEFINE-CONSTANT/ 03:57:05 quadquad: also, no freeze-type? (: 03:57:53 oh yeah! i totally forgot that existed 03:58:36 hm, i can't M-. at the beginning of a buffer, that's a bit annoying 03:58:50 pkhuong: I've never actually used that though. Do you just declaim after defstructing? 03:59:29 quadquad: yup. 04:00:16 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:00:27 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:59 If I want something that can't be a CONSTANT to be constant, I just do (defvar +foo+ ) instead of (defvar *foo* ). No one seems to mind. 04:02:29 sellout-: I think quadquad also wants to enable compiler smarts. 04:02:45 that is right 04:02:58 sellout-: that is what i usually do as well 04:03:01 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has joined #lisp 04:03:10 maybe (declaim (type nothing nothing)) would work as well? 04:04:28 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:53 Bike: with a symbol-macro? I don't think any CL compiler is smart enough to avoid inserting runtime (vs load-time) checks... unless they trust declarations blindly. 04:05:44 oh, i just meant with a dumb defvar, oops. 04:06:22 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:25 dRbiG [drbig@178.217.184.41] has joined #lisp 04:06:28 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:39 is it possible to concatenate bit-vectors 04:07:02 Guthur: is it possible to concatenate vectors? 04:07:09 (concatenate 'bit-vector #*1101 #*0011) 04:07:19 -!- Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:07:54 cheers Bike 04:08:20 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09:29 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host81.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09:48 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 04:12:07 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:12:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 04:12:17 pkhuong: how does sbcl deal with structures with immutable fields? does it do anything neat? 04:12:34 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:04 quadquad: nope. 04:15:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:16:46 :( 04:18:46 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.142.67] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:23:42 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 04:23:42 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:25:19 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:25:22 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:29:24 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 04:30:07 -!- delimax [~max@h212.121.232.68.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:32:20 chaitanya [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has joined #lisp 04:32:47 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:00 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.173.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 04:34:33 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:40 eval is the correct way to evaluate a list? 04:36:23 What does eval do? 04:36:39 (eval '(+ 2 2)) => 4 04:39:03 Is that what you want to do? 04:39:31 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.203] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 04:40:48 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:41:21 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.203] has joined #lisp 04:43:18 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:46 Zhivago: just trying out some stuff 04:46:00 noticed that eval doesn`t use the environment variables 04:46:24 (let ((x 2)) (eval '(2 x)) gives an error, unbound x 04:46:41 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:16 That's not an environment variable -- it is a lexical binding. 04:49:27 eval operates in the null lexical environment. 04:49:53 What do you expect (eval '(2 x)) to do, anyhow? 04:50:10 to get the lexical environment and return the correct result 04:51:06 (let ((x 2)) (funcall (lambda (x) (+ 2 x)) 2)) 04:51:20 I guess that was what I was looking for 04:51:23 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 04:51:32 paul0: the LET there is useless 04:51:52 also (let ((x 2)) (funcall '+ x 2)) 04:52:14 (let ((x 50000)) (funcall (lambda (x) (+ 2 x)) 2)) will return 50002 04:52:15 err 04:52:19 will return 4 ** 04:52:26 quadquad: just testing a way to execute code using the lexical environment 04:52:47 lol 04:52:49 you are right 04:53:15 (let ((x 2)) (funcall (lambda (x) (+ 2 x)) x)) 04:53:19 that is what I wanted 05:02:18 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:20 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:05:45 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:56 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.215] has joined #lisp 05:13:44 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.214.168.215] has joined #lisp 05:14:20 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:18:51 Does anyone know how QUOTEd uninterned symbols are handled by COMPILE-FILE and the subsequent LOAD of the fasl file? 05:19:48 I just ran into a conceptual problem implementing COMPILE-FILE of QUOTEd uninterned (gensym) symbols and the CLHS is not clear or I'm not reading the right part. 05:21:10 i think you want 3.2.4.4? 05:21:20 My question is (I guess) do I generate a new GENSYM on load? 05:21:26 Bike: Ok, let me check. 05:22:00 should that matter? it's a gensym, it's different 05:22:16 well, as long as instances of the same gensym are still eql 05:22:38 Bike: Yes, I guess that's all that's necessary. 05:23:57 oh, no, it does matter 05:24:02 in 3.2.4.2.2 05:25:08 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:26:58 So the uninterned symbols at compile time and load time have to have the same name. Isn't that a problem if I load a fasl file into an image that already has an uninterned symbol with that name? 05:27:17 Maybe I need to sleep on this. 05:28:42 Maybe it's not an issue unless the uninterned symbol is special? Uninterned symbols should never be declared special right? 05:29:23 ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 05:29:34 uh, you can have two uninterned symbols with the same hame 05:29:35 name* 05:29:50 I can? 05:30:02 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@c-68-50-168-116.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:30:06 (eq (make-symbol "FOO") (make-symbol "FOO")) => NIL 05:30:14 that's what "uninterned" means, really... 05:30:24 Oh, yeah, I guess I can. They are just data structures. It isn't until they are interned in a package that the unique name is enforced. 05:31:04 They are just instances of "Symbol" so they can have whatever name I want. 05:32:59 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:34:59 They're just not very useful. 05:35:28 I ended up implementing QUOTE by generating code that runs once at load-time to call C++ code that builds C++ data structures. 05:35:42 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.72.103.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:36:03 I just need it to call MAKE-SYMBOL for uninterned symbols. 05:36:14 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.57.233] has joined #lisp 05:36:53 I think you can just have it call find-symbol for interned symbols? since it's the user's responsibility to make sure the package is in the same state, or something like that... 05:37:05 Zhivago: The issue came up when I compile the code generated by macros like DO/DO*/DOTIMES/LOOP - the generated code is full of uninterned symbols. 05:37:46 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 05:38:32 Bike: Sort of. I call INTERN once for the symbol, put the symbol in a load-time-value array and reference it in the compiled code by its index. 05:39:11 INTERN finds the symbol if it already exists and interns it if it doesn't. 05:39:29 i mean, it has to exist at load time anyway. 05:41:10 Wait, are you sure? The fasl files have to define symbols. 05:41:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:41:55 «For all symbols appearing lexically within a top level form that were accessible in the package that was the current package during processing of that top level form at compile time, but whose home package was another package, at load time there must be a symbol with the same name that is accessible in both the load-time current package and in the package with the same name as the compile-time home package.» 05:42:07 i think that's it. 05:44:25 I know that part, I'm referring to if I compile-file (let ((foo 1)) (print foo)) then FOO must be interned as it is loaded from the fasl file. I mean if I want to be able to access the value of FOO by name from the debugger. 05:44:53 It doesn't have to exist in the system prior to loading the fasl file. 05:46:12 I think the difference here is the "but whose home package was another package". In the case I'm referring to the home package is the package that the fasl file is loading within. 05:46:32 yeah, i think i was mistaken 05:47:10 I have to read that section you pasted a few more times to make sure I understand it. I think I'm doing what it says but I'm not completely sure. 05:48:09 Bike: No problem. I appreciate the back-and-forth. It helps to straighten stuff out in my mind. 05:48:19 This is complicated stuff. 05:48:44 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 05:49:21 Ok, I'm off to bed and I'll implement it tomorrow and hopefully I'll have debuggable compiled activation frames tomorrow. 05:49:27 Thank you very much for your time. 05:51:22 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.57.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:51:42 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:00:54 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:09 akovalenko [~user@95.72.99.20] has joined #lisp 06:03:52 I am really pleased with this algebraic data type library 06:04:21 it has pattern matching but doesn't give off the same stench of other pattern matching libraries, in that it doesn't attempt to make all of lisp matchable 06:05:09 sodel [~user@S01062cb05d9c7e60.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:31 -!- sodel [~user@S01062cb05d9c7e60.va.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:05:37 quadquad: I'm interested in pattern matching. What is the library called? 06:06:32 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:07:03 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 06:07:04 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 06:07:48 drmeister: cl-algebraic-data-type. But I warn you, it does not do stuff like match lists or vectors or whatever 06:08:04 https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-algebraic-data-type 06:08:48 I'll take a look at it. I'm just trolling for ideas and ways-of-thinking right now. 06:08:52 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:09:25 I have some ideas regarding how to make a great C++ refactoring tool and I need to learn more about pattern matching. 06:10:11 drmeister: I like optima wrt pattern matching 06:10:42 drmeister: https://github.com/m2ym/optima 06:10:46 skyopomp: Yes, that was recommended to me a few days ago. 06:10:51 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-19-110.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:11:16 drmeister: 06:11:30 oops, typo 06:11:38 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:12:23 skyopomp: Thanks though - it's helpful to know that more people like it. 06:12:28 cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-132-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:14:10 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:53 Bike: Using MAKE-SYMBOL to generate load-time-value uninterned symbols worked - thanks! I'm off to get some sleep. 06:16:55 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:13 bye. 06:17:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:19:40 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.129.135] has joined #lisp 06:20:15 expt___ [~travis@ip-64-32-153-82.dsl.lax.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:36 -!- expt___ [~travis@ip-64-32-153-82.dsl.lax.megapath.net] has left #lisp 06:21:32 expt_ [~travis@ip-64-32-153-82.dsl.lax.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:12 there are some smart people here: Is it better to check things when you access them from a database, or to put rules to ensure that they are correctly put into the database in the first place 06:25:07 What happens when the expectations of the accessor and the accessee slip out of sync? 06:25:11 rules before entry into the database, and database constraints to ensure data integrity 06:25:24 What happens when the data channel is corrupted? 06:25:39 then the data returned will have limited possible variations 06:25:58 ok so data entry is the place where you do your checking and filtering 06:26:09 mostly, yes 06:26:17 thank you expt_ 06:26:22 np 06:26:28 i was about to start writting getters in my lisp :/ 06:26:43 -!- spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:28:48 quazimodo: that is very related to the topic i presented at ILC 06:29:00 quadquad: orl? 06:29:07 what was your eventual conclusion? 06:29:35 yeah, you definitely want to make sure the database is consistent and clean, as any language could then be used to access it. Otherwise, whatever guard-cruft you have in place to ensure the data is clean on the egress is going to have to be reproduced in all those systems. 06:29:46 -!- quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has left #lisp 06:29:49 quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has joined #lisp 06:29:54 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.129.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:30:03 quazimodo: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.5625v1 (pdf file) 06:30:12 expt_: that makes sense 06:30:35 skanev_ [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has joined #lisp 06:31:41 is anyone here working at orbitz? 06:32:46 expt_: orbitz or ITA? 06:33:14 is ITA writing the underlying lisp implementation? 06:33:20 yes 06:33:25 i assume they must be, if you are asking that 06:33:31 yah... 06:33:39 so, anyone working at ITA 06:33:41 ? 06:33:52 i know fare does (ASDF guy) 06:33:53 thanks quadquad, for the clarification 06:34:11 cool, thanks for the heads up on that... 06:34:21 -!- expt_ is now known as list 06:35:04 whoops not trying to rename myself... der.. was looking to see if they were here... 06:35:07 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:35:17 -!- list is now known as expt_ 06:37:11 Well, ITA is now part of google. 06:37:53 hmm... interesting 06:38:13 Zhivago: arent they reasonably partitioned off or have they drunk the koolaid too? 06:38:18 do you know about how they are dealing with their lisp instances, since they are using Allegro to compile the code? 06:38:28 particularly in a run-time scenario 06:38:58 http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml 06:39:00 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:39:03 do they code with a REPL instance, and when it appears to behave as desired, then compile, or how are they approaching the system implementation? 06:39:09 thanks 06:39:42 expt_: it would be very odd if they didnt use a repl 06:40:06 right... but i am curious how that transistions to the production environment 06:40:17 are they then modifying definitions on the fly, 06:40:21 I find that the repl is a bit like gdb. 06:40:31 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:43 or releasing the code like any other edit/build/release cycle? 06:40:49 Becoming less compelling over time. 06:41:12 quadquad: nice quote btw on the page you sent me... Patterns mean "I have run out of language."  Rich Hickey 06:41:16 I expect it is a traditional build/release cycle. 06:41:17 Zhivago: over the lifetime of a programmer or a codebase? 06:41:24 hmm 06:41:33 Programmer, mostly. 06:42:41 I used to use gdb quite a lot, but these days I almost never touch it except to locate a segmentation fault or the like. 06:42:43 right.. so you see the repl for build but static instance for production. 06:43:25 expt_: i can't speak for ITA but i have seen both in production 06:43:29 You'd have to ask one of the ex-ITA people. 06:43:44 usually you lose the repl if you really want to strip the executable. but a REPL is useful for field debugging 06:44:30 i like the idea of being able to modify the code in situ, so, if you released a set of nodes on AWS for instance, you could have a central controller to modify the node logic and change the topology of the distributed group 06:44:36 To be honest, these days, I don't find the repl to be that important. 06:44:55 without it, are you still able to redefine code on the fly? 06:45:08 Generally modifying code in situ is a bad idea, because you then need to track and propagate those modifications and store them to come back after a restart. 06:45:08 how does that work in a compiled scenario? 06:45:32 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 06:45:43 Edit the source code, save it, build it, and deploy. :) 06:45:55 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-142-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:14 right... like most everything else, nowadays 06:46:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:46:23 Imho, you should be writing your programs with the expectation that they will be restarted irregularly. 06:46:38 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:47:04 If you don't, a lot of things become very hard -- like distribution. 06:47:11 like zhivago sort of said, a repl is kind of like gdb. it might be useful at runtime if you need to inspect or debug values 06:47:17 when the code is compiled in that manner, does it still allow for macro-manipulation in the same manner you get with a REPL? 06:47:54 ugh, reminds me of horror stories of early network machines, where they couldn't really be said to have "source code" because they'd been patched so much while running there probably wasn't even source code they corresponded to in their present state 06:47:58 modifying macros at runtime is not really possible, expt_ 06:48:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:48:12 because often you have no way to know what functions used a macro you redefined 06:49:21 thanks quadquad... and Zhivago, I appreciate the feedback... (and Zhivago, I hope things work out with the girl...) 06:49:48 Bike: that's a lot of self-hosting environments (most smalltalks and CMUCL come to mind) 06:49:54 yeah. 06:50:28 how does smalltalk deal with it, anyway? i've heard they have tools to get source out of an image state. 06:50:52 you edit code in the image (: 06:51:11 i guess what I am looking at is the great idea of code-self modification in situ, but when i think about large, perfomance critical applications, like ITA/Google is dealing with, i am wrestling with the idea of self-modification, and the alternative of static complilation 06:51:17 Yeah, but I mean, I thought they had tools for deployment. 06:51:20 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:11 expt_: typically, the repl is used for development, but for deployment, an image is compiled from the sources using batch processing 06:52:21 expt_: modifying code in situ is usually a very bad idea, unless you have very mission critical stuff where you cant afford to stop running something, in which case you might use erlang or something 06:53:30 quadquad: is the 'bad idea' due to the inconsistency that would be introduced due to re-definition? 06:53:36 i am assuming yes... 06:53:46 would/could be... 06:53:58 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:54:06 inconsistency is one, lack of a "paper trail" like zhivago said is another 06:55:07 H4ns: so, at that point, i interpret that outcome to mean the image is no longer malleable, and the only variation in the system is going to be the data structures themselves? 06:55:19 quadquad: right... git it. 06:55:24 er, got it... 06:56:16 H4ns: is that the case? 06:56:19 expt_: H4ns is just saying that usually when you are deploying, you compile lisp in a similar fashion as you compile C 06:56:40 you can compile it so it includes the compiler, in which case you can modify the image, or you can exclude it, and you cant 06:56:46 expt_: i'm not sure how to answer that question. image based development is good for exploratory work, but for reproducible and maintainable results, building like in traditional (non-dynamic) languages is normally used. 06:56:51 right... and in a similar manner it would be static in a similar manner to C. 06:57:02 right... 06:57:40 doesn't allegro usually deny usage of the compiler in deployed images without special negotiation, anyway 06:57:43 I was hoping that there would be some way to have the language still maintain that near-magical ability to be self-transformative, even once compiled. 06:58:03 Bike: i am not sure about that. 06:58:08 expt_: lisp can't live up to that hope 06:58:13 maybe you're confusing compilation and deployment. 06:58:16 Bike: correct 06:58:50 expt_: CL's "self-transformative"-ness is unaffected by compilation. 06:59:27 Some implementations always compile to native code, for instance. 06:59:30 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:59:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:59:41 pkhuong: okay, that is intersting, and that is the crux of that I am driving at... if it is at all possible. in what way does it maintain the malleability, even though compiled? 07:00:13 if it's compiled to native code, you can "hot swap" code in and out by e.g. redefining functions 07:00:43 expt_: I don't understand the question. My CL is always compiled. When you write "maintain", to what are you comparing? 07:00:50 pretty much the same way sorts of ways C code does, i would think 07:01:51 H4ns: yeah... that is what i was thinking.. but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. 07:02:06 (you can also redefine structs and whatever if you want to destroy the compiler's idea of life, the universe, and everything) 07:02:20 haha... yeah... that is the issue... 07:03:01 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:50 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.19.125] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:03:54 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:04:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:04:44 quadquad: or write a macro that translates defstruct into defclass. 07:05:10 :))) 07:05:31 thanks for all the feedback guys, I appreciate it... 07:06:20 pkhuong: or my favorite: (set-syntax-from-char #\( #\)) 07:08:22 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 07:08:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 07:09:18 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:08 -!- aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:10:20 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:12:00 okay, can I pester you with another line of thinking? 07:12:44 go ahead 07:13:20 since the code, in a production situation, would be compiled, is a feasible scenario to store command structures in a database, in text format, and have them, executible in the compiled code, e.g., 07:13:34 the database store (f1 f2 f3 ...) 07:13:56 Feasible, but probably not desirable. 07:14:12 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-10-228.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:17 and there is a function that looks like say, (execute '(data-structure) (functions)) 07:14:35 and allow the functions to act on the data in a variable manner? 07:14:52 something like composition, but completely variant. 07:15:30 Zhivago: what are the downsides in a scenarion like that? 07:15:35 expt_: the only time i could perhaps see that as any bit useful is if you have a limited number of functions you could execute, your own DSL. That really reduces the issue to how to serialize the functions you want to express 07:15:36 *scenario 07:16:01 Much the same as in any SQL injection situation. 07:16:05 well I had a situation like that, were I was writing a replacement rules engine for drools 07:16:22 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:16:36 Zhivago: the data would have been controlled, it was not open to end-users 07:17:01 Well, you hope. :) 07:17:12 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 07:17:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:17:28 hopefully, your DB is under version control. 07:17:29 You can do it -- but you'd want to be very careful about it. 07:17:54 i ended up implementing it in a static compilation, but I thought how useful it might be to be able to define functions in the image, and store the 'rules' as list of functions to be applied to the data 07:18:06 Zhivago: ahh...haha - yeah... 07:18:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:18:45 then, both the functions in the image and the sets to be applied would be completely flexible, without recompilation 07:18:52 crazy? 07:19:13 Why wouldn't the implementation compile them? 07:19:23 it's not so crazy to write an interpreter for a DSL if that's what you're saying 07:19:39 expt_: what are you trying to solve? 07:20:07 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:20:18 oh, it is solved at this point... but I was looking at the possibilty of using lisp in a more elegant and flexible manner. 07:20:45 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.22.0] has joined #lisp 07:20:53 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:21:37 the problem was to write a rules engine, that would modify in-memory data structures against a set of rules defined by the end users (i know zhivago...), but would not need re-deployent, or at least limit it 07:21:53 since rules would be changing all the time 07:22:21 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b1870.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:07 i ended up solving it by writing composable classes and kvp type data structures that allowed fluid definitions, as long as they stayed within the bounds of predicates that would handle the attributes defined to the data entities 07:23:36 expt_: the way i would solve that: design the data structures, design the language to express the rules, write an interpreter to execute those rules, and if that's too slow, write a compiler 07:23:44 it works fine, but there seems to be such a great facility in lisp to redefine on the fly and recompose data in a way that would have made this project trivial 07:23:57 i would not use the lisp compiler to compile those rules unless i really needed that degree of flexibility and (numerical) perf 07:23:59 that is basically what happened 07:24:12 -!- skanev_ [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has quit [Quit: skanev_] 07:24:25 quadquad: because writing your own is so easy? 07:24:40 quadquad: wait... so you would, or wouldn't compile the rules? 07:25:12 expt_: i would compile the rules with a hand-written compiler if it was too slow. if it was still too slow, i'd use lisp to compile 07:25:19 stassats: sure why not 07:25:20 no, the project wasn't easy, it was gangs of code, but it seemed with lisp, it could have been easier. 07:26:23 quadquad: what will it compile to? to machine code? 07:26:24 i wrote tons of 'structure' code to accomplish the task, where a combination of functions executed on the data as described above would have been a lot less verbose. 07:26:30 stassats: i'm talking about languages whose compiler can be written in at most a couple pages of code 07:26:45 stassats: no, the futhest Id do is a simple vm 07:27:10 instead of compiling into lisp? 07:27:21 and then you getting COMPILE for free? 07:27:26 s/you// 07:27:53 stassats: yes it is nice to have COMPILE, but if I wanted to be safe, I wouldn't allow the bridge between DSL and Lisp to exist 07:28:31 -!- ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:28:37 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:59 wouldn't your VM be written in lisp? 07:29:04 yes 07:29:15 so, what makes it more safe? 07:29:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:48 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 07:30:33 a vm is very strict about what it can execute 07:30:38 jimmy [~aswqa@180.248.254.17] has joined #lisp 07:30:41 -!- jimmy [~aswqa@180.248.254.17] has quit [Client Quit] 07:30:57 and a compiler can't be strict about what it compiles? 07:30:59 in order for a vm to be able to screw up your lisp image you'd have to have designed that functionality inside the vm 07:31:11 -!- fasta_ is now known as fasta 07:31:22 stassats: you can't change what COMPILE is 07:31:43 you can control what you give to COMPILE 07:31:46 the most you can do is attempt to sanitize the input 07:31:49 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2c77.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:59 that's like describing a VM as "sanitizing the input". 07:32:01 after all, you compile your VM with COMPILE 07:32:13 stassats: yes 07:32:54 a VM also is a lot more flexible about evaluation semantics, which often is a very desirable thing to have 07:33:10 with COMPILE you must use lisp's eval semantics 07:33:17 you do? 07:33:22 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:33:42 I thought we were talking about compiling an arbitrary language into lisp, and then compiling the lisp with COMPILE. 07:33:56 in which case you can have whatever semantics you want, basically 07:33:59 Bike: that's what i was talking, indeed 07:34:25 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 07:36:04 a vm's state is easier to examine, the semantics of having multiple vms is better defined, COMPILE is not very parallelizable in a lot of implementations 07:36:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-19-110.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:47 i thought it was about safety, now you've changed the constraints 07:37:10 how did i change the constraints? ease of examination can be a safety issue 07:37:20 multiple vms and parallelization are not safety issues 07:38:05 and parallelization, compile is not parallel, but you use it only once, the resulting code can be executed in parallel 07:38:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:39:51 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-170-66.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:40:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:42:05 He's justifying why he chose VMs rather than compilation to lisp. 07:42:28 The safety stuff is embedded into the decision to use DSLs. 07:43:39 why he'd choose, not why he chose 07:44:10 splittist [~user@99-21.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:44:18 morning 07:44:32 splittist: where? 07:44:44 behind you! 07:44:49 haha... 07:44:59 przl_ [~przlrkt@p54BF97FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:08 i guess in switzerland... 07:46:32 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:46:49 hola helveticanite 07:47:09 in austria too, and in france 07:47:42 right... but he has a ch first-level-domain name 07:48:28 stassats: I gave an informal presentation of one particular time I found it useful to use the compiler at runtime :) 07:48:37 the start of the relevant video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTI_d-jS6dI&t=57m55s 07:48:38 I log in via the raspberry pi in my safe deposit box. That way no-one can find Tracy Island... 07:49:28 splittist: sweet! 07:49:37 przl__ [~przlrkt@p54BF97FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:50:53 expt_: you might be interested in that video too 07:50:53 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:20 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@p54BF97FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:51:20 -!- przl__ [~przlrkt@p54BF97FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:51:24 quadquad: thanks, I will check it out 07:51:34 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF97FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:44 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 07:53:45 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:43 tracy island... that is awesome! 07:56:41 so, what color was your uniform? 07:57:21 let me guess... you were brains... 07:59:00 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 08:00:00 quadquad: thanks for the link... appreciate you doxing your self ;) 08:00:07 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:00:08 no problem 08:00:29 though i doxed myself earlier when i linked a paper 08:01:59 do you still have the lisp machines? 08:02:31 yeah why 08:02:44 just curious... it is cool that you have them 08:02:50 it is in the video' 08:08:00 aajmakin [aajmakin@130.233.224.196] has joined #lisp 08:08:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:09:17 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:09:34 zorkmoid [c2ed8e07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.7] has joined #lisp 08:09:50 lithpy morning! 08:12:05 expt_: i actually just got another one 08:12:15 as well as the chinenual 08:12:18 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:12:23 Ralt [~Ralt@ip1.smh.prowebce.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:37 ah, the chinual, lovley manual that. 08:12:45 :))) 08:13:26 quadquad: what are you doing reading the chinual? 08:14:19 zorkmoid: just interested. also interested in seeing that richard stallman is a lisp nut at heart 08:16:02 quadquad: mm.. there are a few things i miss from maclisp. 08:16:40 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:17:24 -!- ASau` [~user@46.115.87.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:17:28 quadquad: thanks for the video.. going through the whole thing, so it will take some time - i'll get back to you on it. (cool on the additional machine) 08:20:20 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF97FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:22 quadquad: nice work on the FFT 08:20:38 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 08:20:45 zorkmoid: richard stallman was always the same: http://i.imgur.com/5q5rvDt.jpg (preface of the chin[en]ual) 08:20:46 :) 08:20:49 expt_: thanks 08:22:25 quadquad: it answers a question i was wanting to ask, but didn't, about transforming the basic lisp defitions into a dsl of sorts, and you are exactly doing that with the array functions, making the fft very concise. nice. 08:22:29 quadquad: yes, i know, i've worked with rms in the past, good fellow hacker. 08:22:39 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:07 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:10 kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@p436839.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:23:12 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:48 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:14 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 08:24:46 expt_: if I didn't say in the video, all of the source code is online 08:25:32 quadquad: thanks, I will check it out. 08:26:16 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:27:03 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:28:30 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 08:30:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.64] has joined #lisp 08:30:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.64] has quit [Changing host] 08:30:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:31:21 quadquad: what video? 08:31:58 zorkmoid: we were talking about VMs vs compiling to lisp, and I linked to a video of a presentation I did where I used the compiler at runtime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTI_d-jS6dI&t=57m55s 08:32:12 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:32:16 -!- quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has left #lisp 08:32:17 quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has joined #lisp 08:33:20 interesting 08:33:52 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:33:53 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 08:34:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:59 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:36:20 stassats: oh, i came across an example from just 3 days ago where i'd want to use a VM instead of directly attempting to compile to lisp: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/fc5dc1e2698a934bd926b8bf44f515c9da9425ba/regex.lisp?at=default 08:36:34 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 my internet is flaky, is that a regex implementation? 08:38:03 yes 08:38:05 why not use chained continuation? 08:38:09 s 08:38:23 doesn't nfa interpretation take nČlog n instead of n, or... something 08:38:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:39:09 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.52.154] has joined #lisp 08:39:47 abeaumont [~abeaumont@101.Red-79-153-19.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:00 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@101.161.47.171] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 oh, no, O(n) in input length compiled versus O(mČn) for m the number of states 08:40:08 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kedmnbbckuanrocg] has joined #lisp 08:40:08 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kedmnbbckuanrocg] has quit [Changing host] 08:40:08 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:42:15 Bike: without thinking too much, i think at least in my code, the complexity is less than that 08:42:45 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 08:43:26 it is sort of constructing a DFA on the fly, though it doesn't remember the construction after traveling to the next node 08:43:38 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.52.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:44:03 huh, where'd you get the word "frag" from? it's in SERIES too... 08:44:37 from the word fragment, a node with dangling pointers 08:44:45 a fragment of the NFA 08:44:45 sensible. 08:45:21 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:37 bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 quadquad: so, why not continuations? 08:47:19 (but i can't see the code) 08:47:28 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:48:03 stassats: I think without more processing that would end up being slower. I don't use a stack to backtrack or anything 08:51:25 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:33 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:a493:7c0f:f2ed:ead8] has joined #lisp 08:55:51 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:55:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:55:51 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:56:37 kdas_ [~kdas@115.184.210.92] has joined #lisp 08:57:58 that code matches x?x?x?...100 times...x?xxxx...100 times...xxx against (make-string 100 :init #\x) in a tenth of a second 08:58:03 i think perl blows its stack 08:58:23 and cl-ppcre? 08:58:37 havent tried yet! 08:58:40 Fare [~fare@78.251.109.126] has joined #lisp 08:58:57 last i checked pcre didn't use packtracking 08:59:05 ppcre, rather 08:59:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:45 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:59:47 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:39 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01:07 yeah, .002 sec here. 09:01:47 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:47 (time (ppcre:scan-to-strings (format nil "~100@{x?~@*~}" t) (make-string 100 :initial-element #\x))): Evaluation took: 0.000 seconds of real time 09:03:02 if i make the scanner first it takes a hundredth as many cycles and doesn't cons, nice. 09:03:53 or just a literal string 09:03:55 -!- balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:13 700,272 processor cycles vs 46,185 processor cycles 09:04:37 cl-ppcre is great 09:06:06 it's using continuations 09:06:59 i am not surprised, given that continuations are really just GOTOs with some state 09:07:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:07:50 -!- quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has left #lisp 09:07:54 quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 stassats: your (format nil "~100@{x?~@*~}" t) needs 100 x's appended to it 09:10:48 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:44 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 09:12:07 doesn't change the timings much 09:12:29 kmels [~kmels@95.115.38.244] has joined #lisp 09:12:31 800K cycles vs 700K cycles 09:14:29 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 09:15:16 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@115.184.210.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15:22 My glorious matcher takes about 200x the number of cycles :) 09:17:02 100000 exhausts the stack 09:17:17 10000 takes 0.017 seconds 09:17:59 I've never looked at the implementation of CL-PPCRE, but isn't it using compiler macros and so forth? 09:18:27 not for matching expressions 09:20:20 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:a493:7c0f:f2ed:ead8] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 09:20:57 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:28 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 09:26:02 and it looks like that particular stack overflow could be avoided stac 09:26:08 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:26:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:27:21 veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:29 ehu [~ehu@109.37.196.143] has joined #lisp 09:27:45 -!- veer is now known as Guest35194 09:29:54 i'll try to do that some time later 09:29:56 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:30:25 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:30:25 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:30:25 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:33:03 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:34:28 agumonkey [~agu@58.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:30 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:39:11 stassats: aha! youve written CLIM 09:41:14 eh? 09:41:59 bitonic [~user@5add1301.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:28 stassats: CLIM people are a dying breed you know 09:42:56 i don't really understand what you're talking about 09:43:47 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:48 stassats: have you written code which uses CLIM? 09:44:00 i did 09:44:12 but i'm not anymore, because it sucks 09:44:25 teggi [~teggi@123.21.157.23] has joined #lisp 09:44:36 my first statement was acknowledgement that you have, my second was a statement about the population of CLIM-knowledgeable folks 09:45:08 well, i'm not one of them 09:45:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:45:49 stassats: having written CLIM is enough to put you in that population 09:46:21 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.154.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:33 i use clim on a daily basis. 09:46:46 quadquad: i haven't really learned much, so, i wouldn't be able to share any "clim-knowledge" 09:47:07 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47:10 (i only use clim for gui stuff actually) 09:47:12 quadquad: one thing i learned is that it's better not to use it, so, there's that 09:47:23 haha, :( 09:47:51 quadquad: don't listen to stassats ... clim is just fine 09:48:16 CLIM is the future that hasnt arrived yet. 09:48:51 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:48:51 alas, most people prefer to do web pages which interact with cruft these adys. 09:49:16 clim may be a good idea, but it's underspecified, and there's no good implementations 09:49:51 mcclim works very well 09:50:16 stassats: what do you mean it's underspecified? i'd have said the opposite... 09:50:32 been using it for various stuff for a bunch of post-docs, and profs for analytical software here... nobody has complained. 09:51:09 quadquad: some parts of the clim spec are a bit lacking in specifics. 09:51:50 zorkmoid: i'd like to see a screenshot of a CLIM application you've written :) 09:52:02 Clim is an aborted attempt from the past. :) 09:52:10 Zhivago: hogwash. 09:52:29 Try evaluating it objectively. 09:52:41 mcclim is just full of bugs and doesn't support basic stuff like international character input 09:52:48 Zhivago: lisp programmers are not known for objective evaluation 09:52:51 quadquad: might make a screenshot, bunch of bioinformatic software... 09:53:00 :))) 09:53:31 quadquad: have you seen my clim video? it has a cameo appearence of mcclim bugs too 09:53:37 There are a few good ideas in it -- be inspired by them -- but don't feel the need to carry the past about like a sacred icon. 09:53:41 stassats: no. link? 09:54:14 Zhivago: feel free to show something that is better, i've been using clim for the last 20 years and it is just a joy compared to all other gui stuff for cl 09:54:20 quadquad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dv_mNE4AN8 09:54:29 CLIM sort of reminds me of the spirit of Knuth's METAFONT. 09:55:04 quadquad: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/ 09:55:14 has a bunch of notes on what is underspecified.. 09:56:58 stassats: great video! 09:57:28 not redrawing pieces and an exit to the debugger are mcclim bugs 09:57:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 09:58:37 could just as well be bugs in your code, or using the clim protocol the wrong way... hard to tell without looking at the source code. 09:59:30 no, they are bugs 09:59:42 did you report them? or try to fix them? 09:59:56 i did, i fixed them by stopping using mcclim 10:00:02 stassats: i think you should start a vlog in which you do CLIM screencasts along with commentary 10:00:23 stassats: ok, so you didn't fix them. 10:00:35 why would i want to fix them? 10:00:53 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:00:59 zorkmoid: do you use mcclim, or the classic CLIM ? 10:01:34 i fixed the problem of mcclim bugs but not using mcclim anymore, that solved my problems 10:01:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 10:01:45 *quadquad* has only used LispWorks' CLIM. 10:02:02 fe[nl]ix: i've used lw's clim, and mcclim 10:02:29 -!- quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has left #lisp 10:02:31 fe[nl]ix: (i fixed a few bugs in mcclim over the years; nothing to terrible) 10:02:33 quadquad [1806875b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.135.91] has joined #lisp 10:03:21 the last time I tried climacs, pressing down-arrow at the end of the document threw me in the debugger 10:03:38 so I fixed it stassats's way :) 10:03:54 have you tried climacs on lw`? 10:03:54 that's not surprising, nobody's using it because it has bugs, bugs are not fixed because nobody is using it 10:04:07 fe[nl]ix: :)))) 10:04:20 what happened to Athas ? 10:05:10 stassats: can be said about anything, sbcl has bugs, even the cl standard has bugs. 10:05:45 that's not saying much 10:05:46 is that an excuse or what? 10:05:48 the nice thing about cl is that you can easily fix bugs. 10:06:01 talking is even easier 10:06:03 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:06:07 i think people are just a bit lazy these days.. 10:06:53 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 10:07:22 Some see beauty and insight in clim, others don't. Pretending there is a purely objectively way to pick which tools one should work with ignores the human element in creation - and consumption. 10:07:45 quickloading climacs is my favorite: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135443 10:07:51 zorkmoid: from the way you speak, you give me the impression that you're a tenured researcher 10:08:13 splittist: robust implementation is a good criterion 10:08:21 fe[nl]ix: nope, dropped out actually, but i work with a bunch of 'em :-) 10:08:26 fe[nl]ix: haha 10:08:44 fe[nl]ix: (and they pay me well, so :-) 10:08:52 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:09:04 quadquad: give me a couple more years, and iolib will have more packages :) 10:10:03 fe[nl]ix: i expect it to include/use DREI at some point 10:10:56 (or any predecessor of choice (preferably ZWEI)) 10:11:42 VIER 10:11:48 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:12:27 Very Intelligent EditoR 10:12:33 :D 10:12:38 that does not sound like a predecessor 10:12:46 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 10:13:43 :( climacs doesnt run on OS X 10:14:01 # 10:14:47 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:30 chaitanya_ [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has joined #lisp 10:17:31 minion: what does FÜNF stand for? 10:17:32 a man, a plan, a canal - panama 10:17:40 minion: bummer 10:17:41 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``bummer''. 10:17:55 minion: what does FUNF stand for? 10:17:55 Felicific Untrashed Nymphaeaceous Fatiguingly 10:18:14 there you go, catchy 10:18:46 haha 10:20:32 A testament to the advanced features of CLIM: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/15-5.html#_824 10:20:54 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:20:55 -!- chaitanya_ is now known as chaitanya 10:21:51 :D 10:22:13 no, the function with 10 &optional and one &key is a better testament 10:22:14 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-219-205-wifi.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:29 which one is that ? 10:22:36 amuse me 10:22:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:46 stand by 10:23:10 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:8ee0:2414:26ac:8462:4c4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:23:41 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:27:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:27:48 oihk [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:29:52 zork: I'm sure that it is a joy compared to all of the other gui stuff for cl. :) 10:29:55 Whats a good parser library? http://www.cliki.net/parser%20generator lists a lot of different ones... 10:31:52 fe[nl]ix: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/21-3.html#_1039 10:32:09 it's only 5 optionals, though 10:32:46 I'm disappointed 10:33:14 hahaha 10:33:42 but 6 required, i hope that makes up for it 10:35:41 that's a good point 10:35:49 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.157.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:34 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:da80:2cab:25a9:ea95:5387] has joined #lisp 10:36:43 how about a function with 26 keyword parameters? 10:36:56 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/25.html#_1355 10:37:07 err, 22 10:37:32 impressive 10:37:55 haha, and some parameters have some ad hoc format 10:38:16 "keyword X must be a cons whose car represents A and cdr B and ..." 10:38:55 at least mcclim _has_ some documentation that people can laugh at 10:38:57 *akovalenko* is intrigued about the "..." which is apparently some extra piece of data beyond car and cdr of a cons. 10:39:49 in mcclim, combined with another method, it has 26: (length (cdr (member '&key (swank-backend:arglist 'clim:frame-manager-menu-choose )))) => 26 10:39:59 akovalenko: well you see, it can also be a list: "A list. The car is the display object and the cdr is a list of alternating option keywords and values. The value object is specified with the keyword :value and defaults to the display object if :value is not present." 10:42:04 pinnacle of API design 10:43:00 and of course names like command-line-read-remaining-arguments-for-partial-command are present to 10:43:25 57 characters, where are your 80 columns now? 10:43:50 stassats: ass pjb would say "you can simply create your own package and alias it" 10:43:54 as* 10:44:52 przl [~przlrkt@178-33-35-172.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:49 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:46:17 it's the arglist of that crazy one that gets me 10:46:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:46:44 which one? 10:47:01 beep. :) 10:47:01 note-output-record-child-changed is already stupid long, but then &optional erases moves draws erase-overlapping move-overlapping &key check-overlapping 10:47:33 better hope you never want to specify check-overlapping 10:47:59 ah, yeah, that's the first we laughed upon 10:48:01 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:05 oh, sorry 10:48:10 I still feel the insanity 10:48:11 years on 10:48:51 (I still think it has its good points too) 10:49:17 i guess check-overlapping was added after the fact, and since it's a GF, simple adding a new optional wasn't possible without breaking compatibility 10:49:24 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@101.Red-79-153-19.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:49:35 adding a &key isn't possible without breaking compatibility either, though 10:49:37 though somehow, 5 optionals didn't hint for a &key instead initially 10:49:47 Krystof: unless it was &key 10:49:49 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:49:54 and then &allow-other-keys 10:51:05 that's a good argument against using &optional 10:52:35 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:11 -!- przl [~przlrkt@178-33-35-172.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:53:15 i'd like to see suggestions on better names.. 10:53:20 i find commonqt currently to be the best bet for portable CL GUI 10:54:13 at least all CLIM functions use fewer arguments than required by CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT, right guys? 10:55:10 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:56:19 quadquad: yes. 10:56:29 c-a-l has to be atleast 50 .. 10:57:20 przl [~przlrkt@178-33-35-172.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:11 did you know in the next CL standard they are going to be removing &optional and &rest from ordinary lambda lists 10:58:41 who cares about the next standard? 10:59:18 most lisp people with less than 6 weeks of experience with the language 11:01:44 stassats: oh, remember several weeks ago when you were asking (?) for names for a variable you added to sbcl, to control how disassembly is printed? what was that called? 11:02:22 (or maybe it was a parameter) 11:02:52 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-219-205-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:56 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 11:02:57 sb-ext:*disassemble-annotate* 11:03:44 yes, and do you remember when I suggested "annotate-disassembly-p* and you said something like "no it's not even a predicate"? 11:03:58 maybe? 11:04:16 s/"/*/ 11:04:50 stassats: well, here is undeniable truth that that convention of using *foo-p*, the -p in variables, is a true and correct style: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/B-2.html#_1879 11:05:16 i don't find that convincing 11:05:42 besides, you're not supposed to check sb-ext:*disassemble-annotate* 11:05:49 you're supposed to set it to control it 11:06:03 while (if *multiprocessing-p* do-something do-something-else) 11:06:11 przl_ [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:45 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:07:19 abeaumont [~abeaumont@103.Red-79-150-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:26 allegro has a nice thing where you can declare/define variables that are bindable but not settable 11:07:29 and it could accept additional parameters in the future, not just nil and t, but :technicolor or :something 11:07:53 quadquad: symbol macros? 11:08:24 Wait until you get up to *%%foo%%* :) 11:09:08 -!- przl [~przlrkt@178-33-35-172.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:22 stassats: well it has all combinations of {non-,} + {bindable, settable} 11:09:26 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:43 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has quit [Quit: chaitanya] 11:10:01 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:10:26 i don't recall what the behavior of symbol-macros are like if you declare them as special or whatever 11:12:00 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:9d4d:a724:526f:eb43] has joined #lisp 11:12:38 -!- Fare [~fare@78.251.109.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:14:26 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:15:22 bubo [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 11:15:42 -!- bubo is now known as Guest497 11:15:51 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:16:41 -!- oihk [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:16:54 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:26 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 11:18:47 ozialien_ [~ernest@ip68-0-180-230.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. 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12:37:24 then it won't be CLIM anymore 12:37:47 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 12:38:00 BrianRice` [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 -!- cross_ [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:41:15 Thra11 [~thrall@43.119.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:16 so the madness is part of the experience. 12:41:55 well, it's a standard, you can't just modify it willy-nilly 12:41:57 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:41:57 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 12:42:11 -!- svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:9d4d:a724:526f:eb43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:30 we could make a new standard, call it :clim 12:42:45 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:59 with "we", you're talking about "the common lisp community"? 12:43:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:43:38 well, whoever is interested. 12:45:08 cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:20 -!- browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.214.168.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:48:30 one could start clim 3.0 or something. 12:48:43 using keywords would sure be nice ... 12:49:22 converting &optionals to &keys seems like something that could be done automatically. 12:49:52 yup. 12:50:00 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b1870.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live.] 12:50:39 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 beach has said in the past that he is working on CLIM 3 12:53:00 https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/tree/master/Clim3 12:53:03 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@host34.209.51.231.conversent.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:25 interesting 12:54:39 is there a discussion list for that? 12:55:55 dunno, check w/ beach when he's around. 12:56:33 he's never around #lisp 12:57:04 oh. :| 12:57:10 when did he stop? 12:57:31 sometime last year 12:57:40 or the year before last year 12:59:06 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00372b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:49 i can't just check with bordeaux threads if a lock is already held? 13:01:01 oh, there's :wait-p 13:01:36 but only for bt:acquire-lock, not for with-lock-held 13:01:56 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:40 well, i'll just use sb-thread directly 13:03:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:09 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:13:47 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@host34.209.51.231.conversent.net] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 13:14:47 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-142-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:01 przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:17 k0001 [~k0001@host40.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:21:30 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:26:56 There was a Duncan Rose porting DUIM back to CL  but I don't know how to contact him any longer. 13:27:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:19 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 Driving Under Influences of Mcclim? 13:29:32 (i know that's it's a dylan clim) 13:29:53 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-187-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:40 -!- cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-187-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:07 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:32:50 home [~quassel@106.215.65.108] has joined #lisp 13:32:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:14 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 13:33:24 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@87.113.152.173] has quit [Quit: Core War - the ultimate programming game http://corewar.co.uk] 13:33:43 MrMiagi_ [~ae@186-194-44-100.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 13:33:53 -!- MrMiagi_ [~ae@186-194-44-100.i-next.psi.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:27 svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:9d4d:a724:526f:eb43] has joined #lisp 13:36:15 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:18 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41:05 fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:41:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:30 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41:30 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41:47 dim` [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 13:41:56 -!- dim` is now known as dim 13:42:43 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:42:53 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-187-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:58 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 13:43:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:23 -!- bitonic [~user@5add1301.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:43:54 -!- cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-187-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:25 przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:57 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 13:48:33 I can't go back to the "common-lisp-user" package 13:49:00 what happens when you try? 13:49:07 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:20 The name "common-lisp-user" does not designate any package. 13:49:24 (in-package :cl-user) ? 13:49:48 oh, that works 13:49:51 "COMMON-LISP-USER" would've worked 13:49:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:50:08 (in-package "foo") works 13:50:30 paul0: then you have a package called lower-case foo 13:50:38 that's because you did (defpackage "foo") 13:50:41 paul0: (in-package :foo) would not work. 13:51:59 yeah, makes sense 13:54:08 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@66.202.133.178] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-222-108-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:18 Yuuhi [benni@pD9F98CB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 k0001_ [~k0001@host78.190-229-212.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:58:36 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 13:58:45 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.215] has joined #lisp 13:59:31 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:54 -!- home [~quassel@106.215.65.108] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 14:00:01 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host40.190-229-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:00:23 home [~quassel@106.215.65.108] has joined #lisp 14:01:29 -!- home [~quassel@106.215.65.108] has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:37 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:56 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@43.119.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:45 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-187-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:11 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 14:05:30 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.169.146] has joined #lisp 14:05:57 Thra11 [~thrall@43.119.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:29 chaitanya_ [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has joined #lisp 14:07:52 -!- chaitanya_ [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:31 *stassats* modified cl-ppcre so that one can (ppcre:create-scanner (format nil "~30000000@{x~@*~}" t)) without exhausting stack 14:09:34 really useful! 14:10:35 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:10:55 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@115.111.191.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:25 przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:45 though matching long x? still overflows stack 14:15:16 H4ns: would you be interested in a patch? 14:15:22 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 14:15:38 sure 14:16:14 and it actually reduced complexity, removing recursion meant removing reversing 14:16:47 -!- svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:9d4d:a724:526f:eb43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:52 now oom killer replaced stack exhaustion... 14:19:04 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 14:19:12 you must be joking 14:19:37 fe[nl]ix: nope, are your regexes that short? 14:20:25 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:da80:2cab:25a9:ea95:5387] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:31 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.146.155] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:20:47 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57A96F92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:21:10 well, i did something like 100,000,000 "x.." regexp on 100,000,000 "x..." 14:21:24 hahaha 14:21:44 ppcre could do some sort of compression, N X 14:22:00 run-length, or something 14:22:07 probably would just hurt sane cases 14:22:38 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:23:29 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.169.146] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 14:23:32 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:02 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:24:12 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT187.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:24:43 hkBst 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[~user@dyn900-96.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:50:18 hi all 14:50:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:52:06 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:16 Fare [~tunes@78.251.110.140] has joined #lisp 14:52:43 Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:30 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:55:31 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:55:57 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:57:07 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:03 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:20 the hardest part is deciding which reverses to remove and which not, the test suite isn't exhaustive 15:00:43 chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.123.141] has joined #lisp 15:00:46 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 15:00:46 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:46 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 15:01:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:01:34 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:01:39 -!- finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:02:06 finnrobi [~robb@notlupus.info] has joined #lisp 15:02:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:26 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 cfy` [~ilisp@183.141.46.9] has joined #lisp 15:03:12 -!- xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:03:14 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:03:22 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:36 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:51 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 15:03:52 -!- xristos is now known as Guest18943 15:04:12 figured them out, but the test suite situation could be improved, with the help of sb-coverage 15:04:54 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:05:52 can anyone please show me how i can disable all those caught warning and loaded asdf stuff in sbcl? i use --script and tried to add muffle-conditions but it doesnt help 15:06:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT187.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:14 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 15:07:42 -!- Guest18943 is now known as xristos` 15:07:48 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@183.141.46.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:07:56 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 15:08:50 -!- cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:09:55 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:24 (let* ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream)) (*error-output* *standard-output*)) ...) 15:11:59 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:14:10 anyone here familar with how the ccl require function works? 15:17:18 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:18:37 spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:00 let me try this again today, im getting this really strage error "The index 522 is out of range for sequence "".", from lispworks, its getting triggered by read-line which is running in a loop in a thread 15:20:09 it happens when I close the socket/stream that its reading from 15:20:49 faheem: requireM-. 15:21:04 -!- cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-187-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:21:05 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:21:05 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:21:05 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:22:09 abeaumont [~abeaumont@37.Red-79-153-122.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 bitonic [~user@dyn900-96.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 PuffTheMagic: consult lispworks support 15:25:55 i was hoping this was just a my poor lisp skills issue and not an implementation issue, probably should have mentioned lw 15:26:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:30 stassats: thanks 15:27:43 Hmm. Using (print '(funcall package:symbol)) "strips" the package. Is there a special variable for the pretty printer that I need to understand more about to not do this? 15:28:35 (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (print '(funcall cl:symbol))) 15:30:22 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.123.141] has quit [Quit: chaitanya] 15:30:40 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-029-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:20 cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:29 chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.123.141] has joined #lisp 15:31:54 impomatic [~digital_w@87.113.152.173] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 stassats: Thanks for the form. Fooling around in the REPL to understand this better. 15:32:33 spligak [~spligak@2607:f0d0:1100:8026:2e41:38ff:feaf:1ff7] has joined #lisp 15:32:35 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:33:07 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:33:17 -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE----- 15:33:18 MIIC9DCCAl2gAwIBAgIBATANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCBhTELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUx 15:33:18 DzANBgNVBAgTBkJlcmxpbjEPMA0GA1UEBxMGQmVybGluMRIwEAYDVQQKEwloZWFk 15:33:18 Y3JhZnQxGTAXBgNVBAMTEGNhLm5ldHpoYW5zYS5jb20xJTAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEW 15:33:21 FmhhbnMuaHVlYm5lckBnbWFpbC5jb20wHhcNMTMwMjEzMDYzNTAwWhcNMjMwMjEz 15:33:24 MDYzNTAwWjCBhTELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxDzANBgNVBAgTBkJlcmxpbjEPMA0GA1UE 15:33:27 BxMGQmVybGluMRIwEAYDVQQKEwloZWFkY3JhZnQxGTAXBgNVBAMTEGNhLm5ldHpo 15:33:31 YW5zYS5jb20xJTAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWFmhhbnMuaHVlYm5lckBnbWFpbC5jb20w 15:33:35 gZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAMI2u6gMC2b7HeWGQhp1esncpkJ9 15:33:38 zHpmiIz8TZfpISo9PVb9v4086EWmO4x8P0pn/A/x12ggTSk/+fpGlFE/mQa4Ja1v 15:33:41 yGPmMvVFcHCGksT9z+R7pCNL+EkKDxY1tdzEPyrv7OdrCYs41iwlRZx+QPuyuZlF 15:33:42 4ZuDHxRFCeD4nwHNAgMBAAGjcjBwMA8GA1UdEwEB/wQFMAMBAf8wHQYDVR0OBBYE 15:33:46 FAy52saXNTQCCa/Hvw/w31QP8jXmMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjARBglghkgBhvhCAQEE 15:33:49 BAMCAAcwHgYJYIZIAYb4QgENBBEWD3hjYSBjZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZTANBgkqhkiG9w0B 15:33:52 AQUFAAOBgQAvOZDRNYvOHHmdX2W5tlO9du4w/O0HsX4FmbRVznaOMqcB/Cu0NElH 15:33:55 y9ATGVj27OPsA9OcB5VLXiPkgal17I2UVxJg9jkwjQUWbHTRwJ5SqzqY+CYAdW07 15:33:58 /XjwrcUJoGVicqdKodhydQ09rr+0fzPfwZmWzA/n2dy9pLIity5p8w== 15:34:01 -----END CERTIFICATE----- 15:34:05 fuck 15:34:06 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:08 apologies. 15:34:14 (for the cert and the rude language) :/ 15:34:27 Hi H4ns :-P 15:34:27 H4ns: I think you made a typo in line 3... 15:34:56 is that private or public? 15:35:20 that's a sneaky way of sharing certificates. now you can check the logs to find the certificate again. 15:35:55 For a moment I though you intended to post to #perl 15:36:13 stassats: if you want to use that cert to accept my connections to your root accounts, please go ahead! 15:36:17 LOL impomatic. 15:36:30 impomatic: hahaha 15:37:26 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.207] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 Is anyone trying to use SLIME on an emacs 24? I was wondering what to do about the removal of FLET in favor of CL-FLET.... 15:40:01 slime works fine in emacs 24 15:40:34 rpg: No problems here, either. 15:41:21 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.123.141] has quit [Quit: chaitanya] 15:42:24 I have been trying to use it and I get "Users/rpg/emacs-packages/slime/slime.el: `flet' is an obsolete macro (as of 24.3); use either `cl-flet' or `cl-letf'. [12 times]" 15:43:04 What's emacs-lisp for #+ ;-) 15:43:28 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:43:48 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:44:34 just not care about those warnings? 15:44:37 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44:56 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:10 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:18 stassats: They aren't very clear about what they correspond to. I suppose the wording is compatible with the "we hate you, but we will still let you have your flet." 15:45:22 interpretation. 15:45:41 if it doesn't bounce into the debugger, then it's ok 15:46:27 stassats: it waits until compiling slime-alistify to do that ;-) 15:47:00 do what? 15:47:20 k0001 [~k0001@host160.200-82-58.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:47:25 bounce into the debugger.... " 15:47:36 and why is that? 15:47:51 Doesn't like type declaration on "(declare (type function key))" 15:48:27 where is this declaration coming from? 15:49:26 It's in the definition of slime-alistify... 15:49:48 why did you put it there? 15:50:02 I didn't. 15:50:33 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host78.190-229-212.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:50:35 so, somebody did it behind your back 15:51:06 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:51:16 stassats: tobias rittweiler in 2009. 15:51:23 according to CVS. 15:54:49 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:55:15 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 15:55:18 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:55:26 rpg: where exactly? http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/slime/slime/slime.el?revision=1.1427&view=markup#l8730 15:55:31 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 stassats: checking now... 15:57:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:57:42 stassats: I don't understand. I cvs up'ed this morning, but still seem to have revision 1.1382... 15:58:25 *splittist* blames the space-time continuum 15:58:29 rpg: time to switch to git 15:58:56 jwz still uses CVS apparently... 15:59:13 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:30 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:59:30 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 stassats: Thanks for pointing this out! My copy of slime.el seems to have acquired a "sticky date." This strange dried fruit may be the cause of my problems. 16:00:50 rpg: use the git mirror 16:01:29 fe[nl]ix, jdz: the common-lisp.net slime page says nothing about there being a git mirror. 16:02:00 last updated about 5 years ago... 16:02:37 it's unofficially run by antifuchs 16:02:46 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:47 git://github.com/antifuchs/slime.git 16:03:00 seangrov` [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:04 fe[nl]ix: I'm there! 16:03:11 Maybe someone should update the cl.net page? 16:03:31 helmut wouldn't like that 16:03:35 it's not official 16:03:47 i don't think he would care 16:04:48 but, the fact that it's run by a third party and may fail mirroring, like it did recently isn't a plus 16:05:43 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: sigh] 16:09:43 Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 Thank you, everyone! I don't know how long it would have taken me to discover that my CVS working directory was borked. 16:12:20 It's not a piece of software I use anymore, other than trying to just get SLIME (and not that anymore!). 16:13:24 CVS is a very heavyweight way to implement wget! ;-) 16:14:30 I once knew the way to update removing all sticky tags 16:14:54 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:46 fe[nl]ix: I think it's "rm -r ; cvs co" ;-) 16:16:20 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.146.155] has joined #lisp 16:17:14 don't tempt me 16:17:19 I don't want to read man cvs 16:18:05 clhs print-object 16:18:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 16:19:50 *easye* remembers something about '-A' 16:19:57 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:20:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:20:46 -!- Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:20:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:21:05 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:34 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:35 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 16:21:45 fe[nl]ix: cvs up -PAd 16:21:54 *zorkmoid* still uses cvs. :( 16:28:15 S11001001 [~sirian@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:45 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 -!- kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@p436839.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:33:07 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:02 it's always a sad thing when perfectly respectable software is trapped in cvs. 16:38:02 :D 16:41:30 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:42:18 -!- plantseeker2 [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:42:42 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:42:56 Fade: it could be worse; I recently visited a shop that uses Source Safe. 16:44:26 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:20 lichtblau: ping 16:46:32 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:06 plantseeker [~Plantseek@77.240.63.97] has joined #lisp 16:51:14 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 16:51:30 ASau [~user@176.0.116.78] has joined #lisp 16:53:21 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:54:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:55:23 jasom: well, I guess.. the first shop I worked at professionally used RCS. :) 16:56:33 -!- Joreji 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18:19:59 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:15 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:26:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:26:46 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:30:35 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:32:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:33:53 What types of values need to specially handled by the compiler when implementing the special operator QUOTEd in Common Lisp? 18:34:03 Sorry "QUOTE" not "QUOTEd" 18:34:22 Obviously, fixnum, float values, characters, strings 18:34:29 list and symbol 18:34:32 you don't have to quote those 18:34:38 symbols, conses. 18:34:39 they can just appear as they are... 18:35:12 i think you need to be able to dump random-states too. 18:35:15 I know, but you can if you want. So I handle them with a function called CODEGEN-QUOTE-FIXNUM 18:35:26 What about arrays? 18:35:35 I can say (QUOTE #(3 4 5 6)) 18:35:54 So I have to generate data for the simple-array right? 18:36:18 it's the same as #(3 4 5 6) 18:36:23 you can do #.(make-array ...whatever...) too, you know 18:36:40 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:46 Oh and #.(make-hash-table) 18:36:51 drmeister: (eval (quote )) => 18:38:04 let's see, i think the minimum dumpables are numbers, characters, symbols, packages, random-states, conses, arrays, hash-tables, and pathnames 18:38:20 So if there is a #.(make-) I need to be able to generate a similar instance of at load-time correct? 18:38:23 It's anything you can read, right? 18:38:24 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 no, you can read anything, but functions aren't dumpable and things like streams don't have to be 18:38:54 Bike: I mean for QUOTE 18:39:08 clhs 3.2.4.2.2 18:39:09 Definition of Similarity: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdbb.htm 18:39:12 i don't think quote is really the issue 18:39:17 fe[nl]ix: pong 18:39:19 clhs 3.2.4 18:39:20 Literal Objects in Compiled Files: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bd.htm 18:39:41 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:52 (quote ) is just the same as the thing itself, after all 18:39:54 stassats: I know, I've been reading that section until my eyes bleed. 18:39:59 oh wow, specbot outputs titles, too? nice 18:40:15 antifuchs: only for chapters 18:40:20 sure 18:40:26 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 18:40:30 still, I hadn't seen it before (: 18:40:41 well, it's a newish feature 18:41:21 drmeister: but yes, you'll need to be able to generate similar objects for everything in the similarity definition. 18:41:37 I think you also need a make-load-form for CLASS. 18:41:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:24 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:42:24 which is just `(find-class ',(class-name class)), i guess 18:42:35 See, I reimplemented compilation of QUOTE. Now I generate coalesced load-time values for every quoted object when the fasl file loads and reference them within the code. I'm trying to figure out what more I need to implement. 18:42:45 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 QUOTE doesn't have to be involved, though. 18:43:12 why load-time-value? 18:43:23 I needed to do it this way because I am interfacing with C++ so I have to let C++ layout the instances of classes. 18:43:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 18:44:04 drmeister: that's not going to work well or at all for CLOS. 18:44:12 I can't recover the memory layout of instances at compile time - that would be very challenging. 18:44:14 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:44:17 pkhuong: Why not? 18:44:22 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:53 -!- skanev [~aquarius@93.152.162.135] has quit [Quit: skanev] 18:45:54 multiple inheritance and runtime class redefinition. Also, change-class. 18:47:19 pkhuong: I don't know about that. If it is going to be a problem I'll run into it pretty soon. 18:48:02 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:48:05 i think by "instances of classes" drmeister meant the C++ classes for CL classes like "cons" or whatever, rather than CLOS classes? 18:48:11 pkhuong: But what I generate from my one-time run load-time-value initialization code is exactly what would be generated at compile time and stored as data in the compiled file. 18:48:26 drmeister: if it's a C definition, how about using swig or FFI to get structures in lisp? perhaps you can use a custom metaclass for easier method calling. 18:48:26 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:45 Bike: You are correct - I mean C++ classes for CONS, FIXNUM, BIGNUM etc. 18:49:00 I wonder if you can have a reasonable mapping between CL structs and C++ classes. 18:49:36 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:49:37 CLOS class instances are currently based on DEFSTRUCT structures which are represented as arrays of objects. 18:49:46 drmeister: if you'd use Ecl, that might be trivial, in fact ;) 18:49:59 that already includes structures for CONS etc. 18:51:02 flip214: I'm a bit beyond that - I've implemented a completely new CL compiler in C++. I've got CLOS running. 18:51:23 oh, ok. 18:51:32 all of it? 18:51:45 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 18:51:56 the standardised version, I mean. I assume you don't have a full MOP, if any. 18:52:29 sykopomp: No one has ever mapped C++ classes and CL structs before. How C++ classes are laid out is a C++ compiler implementation detail. 18:53:06 sykopomp: Yes, all of it. 18:53:40 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has joined #lisp 18:53:52 nice, good job :) 18:54:33 I'm using the ECL Common Lisp code and compiling it with my own compiler. 18:56:16 So to deal with the fact that struct/class layout in C++ is implementation dependent I have C++ build all quoted objects at load-time. It entails run-time overhead but it looks like its the cost of doing business interfacing C++ with CL. 18:56:29 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.213] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 drmeister: Is your compiler gonna be open source? 18:57:24 So it looks like my question isn't really well defined right now - it's something like "what other CL objects do I need to be able to compile into run-time accessible data". 18:57:55 samebchase: Yes, my student and I are cleaning things up and we plan to have it up on github by the end of the semester. 18:58:15 drmeister: Nice! :-) 18:58:23 drmeister: There's absolutely nothing special to be done to implement QUOTE. Not even on symbols. Interning or not is done by the reader, not by QUOTE. 18:58:26 as i understand it, and if you mean load-time accessible, that's the list i said, plus any standard-object or structure-object with a make-load-form, i think. 18:58:47 pjb: But this is compiled code, the reader never sees it. 18:59:06 drmeister: what you an optionnaly do to literal objects (not only those that are QUOTE'd), is to store them in read-only memory, ie. in data segments of ELF files. 18:59:15 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@200.117.219.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:59:23 drmeister: sure, the reader sees them, when you load the fasl file. 19:00:02 Bike: Thank you. I think I'm getting confused by my other 350 C++ classes for building molecules and what do I do with them. I think it is related to the problem that pkhuong pointed out. 19:01:16 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:34 drmeister: for one thing, you can have literal objects without going thru cl:quote. 19:01:51 pjb: I can't store my C++ classes in data segments of ELF files - the simple ones yes, the complicated ones with pointers that need relocation are the problem. 19:02:05 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 pjb: What literal objects without going through cl:quote are you referring to? 19:02:58 Anything that reader macros may return, and integers, ratio, and floating point numbers. 19:03:00 anything? 19:03:07 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 19:03:10 So basically yes, anything. 19:03:40 or ordinary macros 19:03:43 pjb: integers, ratio, floats I've got covered. Reader macros are leaving me puzzled at the moment. 19:03:56 "toto" is a reader macro. 19:03:57 what's puzzling? 19:04:02 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl15-225-48.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:05 #P"/toto/titi" too. 19:04:21 #(1) is too 19:05:17 Lets say I create a reader macro #{ :a 1 :b 2 :c 3} that generates some sort of dictionary. What do I do with it when I compile it? (I'm asking myself that question) 19:05:27 Exactly. 19:05:44 You can have plain data as any other expression in the middle of expressions: (progn 1 2 3) 19:05:46 if the dictionary's a hash-table than the compiler knows how to dump it already. if it's a standard-object you can define a make-load-form method to teach it how. 19:05:46 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:03 (progn '1 '2 '3) does the same thing. 19:06:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:06:17 But (progn 'x 'y 'z) and (progn x y z) don't. 19:06:24 But in straight CL that dictionary would be represented by a struct defined by DEFSTRUCT or a instance of a class defined by DEFCLASS. 19:06:54 make-load-form it is, then. 19:07:26 i don't think you need to be able to dump arbitrary structure-objects or standard-objects without user make-load-form methods. 19:07:29 alexshendi [~alexshend@HSI-KBW-078-043-199-120.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:00 Bike: #S? 19:08:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:08:17 And the instance of struct or defclass would be implemented as arrays of objects and those objects would be simpler objects. So I'm covered? 19:08:36 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:07 jasom: "A general-purpose concept of similarity does not exist for structures and standard objects. " so i guess you don't even need that 19:09:18 I'm not familiar with make-load-form - I'll read up on it. 19:09:32 compilation is orthogonal to reading. The compiler shouldn't care whether a literal object wsa generated by a reader macro or by a normal macro. 19:09:37 drmeister: you don't have to worry about dumping instances without make-load-form methods, i mean. 19:10:53 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 19:11:04 archonix_ [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:12:27 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@HSI-KBW-078-043-199-120.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 19:12:44 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:13:09 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 So MAKE-LOAD-FORM is a facility for generating load-time values of complex objects? 19:13:26 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:13:44 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:44 for telling the compiler how to do so, yeah. 19:13:49 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:13:57 -!- archonix_ [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has left #lisp 19:14:08 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:14:21 See, this is exactly why I chose Common Lisp as my domain specific language - it's so well thought out. 19:14:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:14:34 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:14:37 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:40 weird, when I try to load quickproject "The name "foo" does not designate any package." 19:14:42 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:14:55 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:10 archonix_ [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:15:16 vikvon [~vikvon@65.102.233.25] has joined #lisp 19:15:34 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:15:38 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:15:41 It seems thought that one shouldn't need MAKE-LOAD-FORM because complex data structures are built out of simpler ones. Why is it necessary? 19:16:05 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:16:22 Or is it a convenience? It is a generic function which means it can be implemented purely in Common Lisp and doesn't need anything beyond the standard special operators. 19:16:32 some slots are computed from others / the environment / cache 19:16:37 you don't want to persist them 19:17:06 and/or slots are actually decomposed from a magic :initarg 19:17:15 drmeister: there's an example with interning on the clhs page, i think 19:17:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:51 some slots are backlinks to other datastructures -- you don't want to persist them 19:18:06 or you'll have systematic circularities 19:19:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:19:31 -!- vikvon [~vikvon@65.102.233.25] has left #lisp 19:19:52 solved, removed ~/.cache/common-lisp 19:20:03 Fare: Ok, I see how that can be useful. I implemented XML serialization for all my chemistry C++ classes. This might be solving a similar problem (probably better than I did). 19:20:55 persisting a file descriptor as an int would fail pretty bad for instance. 19:21:08 I'm really excited about this because now I'll be able to embed CL code in my serialized objects. 19:21:32 -!- pjkj_ [~pjkj@134-208-2-206.ndhu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:56 pkhuong: Ok, that hits home. That would cause problems. 19:22:58 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:01 Ok, so I handle the types in the similarity definition 3.2.4.2.2 and then MAKE-LOAD-FORM adds a layer on top that takes care of the complex objects. 19:26:30 I've got almost everything covered except hash-table, array, random-state, and pathnames. 19:26:45 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:27:10 Everybody agrees that pathnames suck right? I don't have to get them right because nobody gets them right. Correct? (I don't want to start an argument). 19:27:20 Possibly dumb question for FFI wizards: I have a SAP to a vector of pixels and a Lisp bytevector of same saize I'd like to store at that SAP. Is there a simple way to do this? 19:27:26 *size 19:28:04 Actually, I'll leave the pathname question for another day. 19:28:05 drmeister: you have to get them right in the sense that logical-pathnames need to work for a lot of lisp code to work 19:28:27 drmeister: you don't need to handle things like special characters not in the standard, since nobody does that right 19:29:05 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@66.202.133.178] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 19:29:38 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@66.202.133.178] has joined #lisp 19:29:53 jasom: Ok, thanks. I'm using the C++ boost::path code and it looks like it stole a lot of ideas from CL pathname. I'm hoping there is enough overlap that I don't have to write a lot of code. 19:30:23 Ok, thanks. 19:32:08 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@66.202.133.178] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:14 redline6561: bash-copy. 19:33:07 heh. yeah that might work. thanks pkhuong. :) 19:35:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135449 19:35:32 what this means? 19:35:40 trying to create a simple page with restas and cl-who 19:36:15 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:36:25 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@66.202.133.178] has joined #lisp 19:37:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:38:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:33 drmeister, that doesn't mean the CL standard is perfect 19:38:50 pathnames, for instance, are, once again, a pile of fail here 19:38:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 skanev [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has joined #lisp 19:39:28 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@101.161.47.171] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:43:23 -!- Fare [~tunes@78.251.110.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:45 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:20 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn900-96.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:50:14 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.18] has joined #lisp 19:50:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.18] has quit [Changing host] 19:50:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:55:43 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:58 https://gist.github.com/paulogeyer/4947622 19:56:02 what's wrong with that? 19:56:28 "The value NIL is not of type HASH-TABLE." 19:59:29 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 20:01:06 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:02:24 paul0: you should have a debugger in your implementation that will tell you where/why you are trying to use NIL as a hash table. NIL is not a hash table at all. 20:03:13 drewc: here is the backtrace, http://paste.lisp.org/display/135449 20:03:18 doesn't tell much to me 20:03:35 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:41 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jqlustlbfebqipsx] has joined #lisp 20:03:56 not sure if this is the best place... i am trying to write a single key function for slime but i it doesn't seem to work sometimes. (defun slime-or-select () (interactive) (if (fboundp 'slime-selector) (slime-selector) (slime))) 20:04:34 nan_: maybe #emacs is a better place for this question 20:04:44 paul0: well, I can say 'please learn a wee bit more lisp so the evaluation/stepping/debugging makes a bit more sense to you ... 20:05:07 paul0: thanks i'll try #emacs 20:06:01 nan_: I would not suggest #emacs if you want to know a wee bit more about SLIME ... but regardless, I can talk with you in there if you would like :) 20:06:32 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:06:34 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:06:43 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:45 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by beer] 20:06:50 paul0: it seems that "(RESTAS::REGISTER-ROUTE-TRAITS MAIN #)" is what is failing. why does it try to gethash from NIL? 20:07:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:02 drewc: already asked there, would be great if you did 20:07:52 drewc: I have no idea, I'm learning lisp and trying to do something with web programming 20:08:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:10:23 paul0: perhaps you should learn lisp before trying to do something 20:10:23 with it... namely how to use the evaluation/stepping/debugging ... regardless, the issue you are encountering has nothing to do with web programming, but I cannot say at all why, for I am not you and do not have the same libs installed. Is there a mailing list, or even better, your teacher who can explain to you what is happening? 20:10:35 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:46 -!- ozialien_ [~ernest@ip68-0-180-230.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:11:30 nan_: well, "it doesn't seem to work sometimes." is somewhat nonesensical when trying to solve the issue, because I do not know what the issue is :) 20:12:34 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 20:12:41 drewc: well, perhaps the learning curve for lisp is a bit harder. With most languages I can start experimenting without knowing everything about the language, and error messages are simpler 20:13:57 drewc: it works ok if i don't open any lisp files before this key, but when i do it evaluates to 'slime-selector regardless, i think i need a function/variable that appears when slime fully deployed 20:14:47 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:14:48 drewc: and i don't have .lisp hooks that loads slime 20:16:09 paul0: you can have very nice error messages in lisp aswell. restas does some macro stuff which isn't easy to track. to make it easier for beginners, the author would have to add extra checks and signal errors with nicer error messages 20:16:17 paul0: NIL is not a hash table. If that is not simple enough for you... sigh .. .I suggest you look elsewhere for a simpler error message. Including your lisp with (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) ... and beyond that ... sigh ... 20:16:26 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:16:40 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 20:16:45 i don't know what the actual problem is, but it might involve initialization of restas 20:17:55 drewc: well, I can agree that nil is not a hash-table, but if you look at the code, I'm not sending nil anywhere, and this is almost exactly code the site example 20:17:57 nan_: so, the function works fine, it is your emacs skills that are lacking, and you do not want to add a hook? I may be a little confused as to your desire, but it is just after noon here, so I may not be thinking straight. 20:19:50 drewc: i don't have explicit hooks but not sure if quicklisp-slime-helper does. i am sure it is my emacs/slime skills as i am new to both. 20:20:11 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:20:26 drmeister: make-load-form is needed for objects that don't have a printable readably representation. In particular, CLOS objects. Notably, CLOS objects with user-specified meta-classes cannot have a predefined printable readably representation. 20:20:51 drmeister: otherwise, structure are printable readably, so they don't need a specific make-load-form method. 20:22:19 paul0: great, so 'it seems that "(RESTAS::REGISTER-ROUTE-TRAITS MAIN #)" is what is failing. why does it try to gethash from NIL?' is there not a simple mailing list where the authors of that library could help you? If you cannot look at the source to figure out what is going on, and the instructions say to do what you are doing, than it is the instructions fault... and y 20:22:19 ou should email the auhors about it. 20:22:43 nan_: So, what does not work about it exactly? 20:22:52 drewc: looks like slime-helper does have hooks so problem is obvious, hooks loads functions like 'slime-selector yet doesn't connect lisp 20:23:16 Well where CL loses is where it's not fully specified. The parts that are underspecified, like pathnames (notably physical pathnames), are subject of a lot of variation from one implementation to another and therefore a lot of pain. 20:23:55 nan_: ok, well, since that makes no sense to me, glad to see you are on the right track :) 20:23:59 drewc: then i need to know if slime is connected, an expression instead of "if fboundp 'slime-selector" that tells me if slime connected 20:24:42 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:25:01 nan_: why do you want to know if the function is bound and think that is the "slime is connected!" green light? 20:25:26 drewc: because i couldn't find/think of anything else :) 20:25:45 you are aware that emacs lisp and common lisp are different languages, and SLIME connects one to the other, right? 20:25:59 drewc: yes 20:27:02 drewc: and all this is entirely on emacs lisp side 20:27:59 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:00 so what does that have to do at all with the elisp function being bound? Are you new to programming as well? 20:28:56 nan_: (slime-connected-p) 20:28:58 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-68-37.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:00 drewc: no i am not new to programming but i am binding a key to emacs, a key that loads slime (an emacs module) 20:29:57 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:58 akovalenko: it is not bound if i never load slime right? i remember i trie that one 20:30:30 (and (fboundp 'slime-connected-p) (slime-connected-p)) 20:30:53 ozialien_ [~ernest@ip68-0-180-230.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:58 Lack of packages has at least the advantage of this form being simple. 20:31:23 pjb: just give me min to try, *cheers 20:32:20 pjb: ahh ... that makes sense as the answer to my question about why! thank you :) 20:33:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:43 is there not a dynamic variable with the 'is in connected?' thing? .... 20:33:52 *drewc* looks in slime.el ... 20:34:27 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:34:59 pjb: works, thanks alot 20:35:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:35:19 (defvar slime-net-processes nil ...) is what I am thinking 20:35:19 about... I think that(slime-connected-p) likely makes more sense. 20:35:28 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:18 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:01 myx [~myx@pppoe-204-182-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 20:50:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:51:01 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:51:42 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@66.202.133.178] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 20:52:46 alpha123` [~turkchess@71-212-143-72.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:00 pjb: Thank-you. I'm implementing this stuff now so I may have more questions soon. 20:56:20 -!- ozialien_ [~ernest@ip68-0-180-230.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:39 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:40 drewc: does smug have a non-ambiguous depth-first version of plus? I have a grammer for which I have ambiguous results, and always want the first result. Right now just taking the first result works, but it does a lot of extra searching since plus is ambiguous. 21:00:58 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:51 drewc: here's a really simple example http://paste.lisp.org/display/135453 <- parses all strings ending in "c" and the longest string ending in C is always the first result 21:04:22 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:05:42 jasom: does =AND not work? 21:07:28 drewc: I don't think so, since it won't do backtracking, right? 21:07:57 what do you mean by backtracking? Or : what is it exactly that you want? 21:08:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:10:59 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:11:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:20 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:11:51 drewc: I am parsing until a delimiter, then checking for what I expect to be after the delimiter; if it's not there, then I read until the next delimitor and so on and so forth 21:11:57 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:07 and ... what is wrong with the existing =AND, =OR and =NOT? 21:15:34 drewc: nevermind, I figured out how to do it with =or and =not 21:15:40 or: show me how you would to the code using strings and STRING- functions etc ... 21:15:41 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:49 ok w00t! 21:16:00 it's just a lot uglier than the bind version 21:16:14 er bind/plus version 21:16:43 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:16:49 well, paste the code, because BIND version being less ugly does not make any sense to me at all ... 21:17:24 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:43 well... I use my zero-or-more* to read to the delimiter, then once everything else is done, I disambiguate based upon the shortest match (which is always the last one in zero-or-more*) 21:17:53 senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:58 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:20 but for really ambiguous inputs thats ... suboptimal. 21:18:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-Mason.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:20:33 well, I have no idea simply because I only use non-d parsers when I do not want a non-deterministic choice .... so to be honest I have little idea what you are talking about. 21:21:01 errr .. only use d- parsers when* 21:21:33 but regardless, if you are saying that using a non-d parser is a wee bit much, why are you using it? 21:21:36 drewc: meh, just the typical nd followed by disambiguation is much less code than writing the d correctly 21:21:47 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:00 -!- Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:23:05 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 21:23:11 jasom: odd ... simply because it is more code, and using =OR instead of PLUS is the same thing only non-d, non? 21:23:19 Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has joined #lisp 21:23:21 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:23:43 err .. only -d 21:23:52 bitonic [~user@5add1301.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:54 *drewc* is getting confused with all his short forms 21:24:43 drewc: consider my example I pasted; the last item will consume the shortest amount of input that ends in a c; it is less code than doing it with =and =or =not 21:25:30 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:25:35 similarly, the first item will be the longest amount of input 21:28:30 ok, so what is it that you want? you do not want the parsers PLUSed, simply because that does not work, yet the PLUS code is shorter and works every time... so what are the specifications? 21:29:34 hmmm something as if I had written with plus, but I can at some point collapse it with a depth-first search. 21:30:22 rather than building the entire parse forest 21:30:27 sorry, PLUS is APPEND .. quite literally ... and =OR is OR ... 21:31:03 So you want a non-appended version of PLUS .. meaning what are the specifications because APPEND is APPEND! :) 21:31:59 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:20 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:38 drewc: actually I think I know what I want now, and I think I know how to write it; let me check that my brain has everything right though... 21:32:50 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:24 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 21:33:32 jasom: cool, I am here, and would like to know the solution etc, so if you do not mind pasting ... well please do 21:33:36 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:54 jasom: also keep in mind that 2013, SMUG will be re-written as a proper monadic transformer parser like in http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-5 21:34:55 though the code you write should work on the upgrade regardless. 21:35:26 -!- archonix_ [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:35:30 Aha! I want a lazy append 21:36:44 And since lisp-lists are non-lazy it would require a smug rewrite 21:37:18 and it is already re-written to not use lists per se! 21:37:39 and for that matter, you can sub-interface the parser and use whatever you want 21:39:08 and beyond that, what do you mean by 'lazy append' .. .you mean (lambda (&rest lists) (apply #'append lists)) ? or 'what exactly do you mean by 'lazy' in this sense and what does it have to do with parsing? 21:39:36 Right now (bind) appends each parser and returns a list as a parse forest 21:39:42 er (plus) 21:39:46 no, it doesn't 21:40:00 leoc` [~leoc.git@p57B9AD5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:11 :append (funcall parser input) 21:40:13 plus returns a function that takes the input. 21:40:17 (lambda (input) ...) 21:40:32 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:48 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p57B99B56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:41:13 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:41:16 I want the parse forest to be a lazy list rather than a list, so that the second argument of plus only gets invoked when needed to produce a further parse-tree 21:42:05 -!- bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:42:56 that is not how parsing works ... and why do you want a lazy list exactly? You do not want PLUS to work? or =OR, or anything else, but just want a parser to return a lazy list? 21:43:46 I mean, simply wrapping a LAMBDA makes it lazy ... and funcalling that lambda makes it work ... 21:43:59 right now (funcall parser input) returns a parse forest as a list of (parse-tree . more-input) conses, right? 21:44:20 which is why plus is just append 21:44:27 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:33 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:21 by default, yes it does. but you should not think of it that way, for it only makes sense for the version of SMUG that you are using, which will soon be put down. funcall returns the results of the parser that you called with input. If the parser has PLUS, then it is non-deterministic. The also data structures it returns are not important per se, rather the logic behind the parsers is what matters. 21:47:43 s/aslo/other 21:47:51 s/also/other 21:47:58 s/aslo// 21:48:40 user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:49:31 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@SSID-Mason.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:49:37 Consider my "string ending in #\c" example, it has to find every single string that ends in c; If I want the longest string ending in c, then I only need the first result, but it will spend a bunch of time and memory calculating all the other results. It would probably crap out on a string of a million c's 21:50:25 so why do you want to calc all of the only to use the longest? 21:50:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-Mason.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:50:57 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 21:51:18 why are you using PLUS there when the entire point of PLUS (and that function does exist in all parsec style monadic parser combinators) is to do exactly what you do not want? 21:51:31 If it returned ambiguous results in a lazy list, then it wouldn't be calculating all of them 21:51:56 and it would be much more concise than the same thing with =not 21:52:15 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:28 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00372b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:54:16 OK .. if you say so.. So you do not not want PLUS at all, or =OR .. but rather a completely lazy version? OR : (defun non-parser-plus (p1 p2) (lambda (input) (list (lambda () (funcall p1 input)) (lambda () (funcall p2 input))))) ... 21:56:45 -!- user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:01 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:08 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:11 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:02:04 -!- expt [~travis.ro@fwsm.comcastnets.com] has left #lisp 22:03:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:03:56 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has left #lisp 22:04:28 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:01 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:02 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:05:11 jasom: or even better: (defun lazy-parser (parser) (lambda (i) (cons (lambda () (funcall parser i)) i))) 22:05:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:06:22 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:06:30 that is a proper parser according to SMUGs parser type ... I think. Regardless, it is lazy, and PLUS will work just fine, there is no FAIL at all. 22:06:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-Mason.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:06:50 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:48 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@43.119.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 22:07:48 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:55 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.64.246] has joined #lisp 22:08:20 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.221.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:09:08 -!- EvilTosha [~eviltosha@isa1.alpha-pc.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:42 k0001 [~k0001@host147.190-137-34.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:10:13 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:10:26 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:33 Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:29 McMAGIC-1Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 22:12:33 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:03 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:09 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:19 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:15:48 -!- Fare [~Fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:30 youlysse` [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:36 jasom: for some reason still going through my head, but: (defun lazy-plus (&rest parsers) (apply #'plus (mapcar #'lazy-parser parsers))) 22:17:56 wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-151-216.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 hi 22:18:10 damn Xachs not here. 22:18:24 mime4cl doesn't build on QL... 22:18:47 says package :CLOS not found, tried giving :CL as a value.. no luck 22:18:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:19:23 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:24 btw, I am trying to wrangle with mail, anyone any ideas how I can tell what encoding the messages text body is in? 22:19:56 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:20:55 ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 22:21:27 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:23:27 wakeup: always in ASCII or MIME IIRC ... and MIME tells you what type it is , again IIRC 22:24:03 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:21 EvilTosha [~eviltosha@isa1.alpha-pc.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:39 *drewc* actually cannot recall the details but remembers ASCII being the thing for INET protocols in general, and email specifically 22:24:55 well 22:25:10 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:25:13 its not that simple 22:25:30 the text body is base64 or q-printable encoded 22:25:40 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:14 but what character encoding the encoded body is in... guess that depends on content property fields... 22:26:34 ok, so MIME then? and the content-type header does not say what the content type it? 22:27:01 we are talking about internet email here, yeah? I have to look at my notes after all :) 22:27:03 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2c77.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:36 yes 22:27:59 in this particular message I am looking at the encoding informations seems to be amiss 22:28:15 its probably iso8896-1 22:28:20 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:27 ah geez 22:28:41 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:28:51 wasn't there a cl lib that magically finds out text encodings? 22:29:01 well, unless it is 7-bit ascii, and the encoding information is wrong ... then if it is amiss, you are likely dealing with spam! :P 22:29:13 sadly not 22:29:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:47 jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.98] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:32:00 ah to hell 22:32:53 well, it is is base64, it must be MIME, and the the header does not tell you the correct content-type, then something is wrong with whatever email client sent you the faulty message ... at least, this is in my experience... I have been a mail hosting provider for over 13 years at this point, so may be a wee bit 'know a bit much' to say what the issue is unfortunatly. 22:33:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:33:43 ah great 22:33:59 my mistake 22:34:09 found the proper way to get encoding information 22:34:20 do tell! 22:34:29 its utf-8 22:35:07 not the encoding, how did you find it out lol :P 22:36:03 cl-mime has CHARSET ;) 22:36:42 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:36:43 its bug is tough, that ql-qprint returns a garbeled string instead of a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)) 22:38:14 paul0_ [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:38:15 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:15 -!- paul0_ is now known as paul0 22:38:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:39:57 ah, makes sense to me ... and the garbled string, well, I have no idea what ql-qprint does or is for at all. so cannot help you there 22:40:10 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:24 cl-qprint is just stupid 22:40:38 uses code-char to convert... 22:40:38 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:41:07 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:12 well I believed code-char was magic unicode glue once too, so can't blame the misguided author 22:41:22 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:41:53 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:56 paul0_ [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:41:57 well, code-char makes no sense at all :) 22:42:04 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:44 question: What is the use case for code-char/char-code ? 22:42:58 < wakeup> btw, I am trying to wrangle with mail, anyone any ideas how I can tell what encoding the messages text body is in? <-- Good Luck! 22:43:19 char< probably 22:43:33 jasom: thank 22:43:34 s 22:43:44 wakeup: on unicode lisps it converts between the code-point and the character 22:43:47 wakeup: well, chars can be numbers, and numbers can be chars. can be quite nice for storage. 22:44:19 SrPx [~SrPx@177.158.32.188] has joined #lisp 22:44:33 is there any good open source lisp beautifier? 22:44:41 wakeup: e-mail is old and crufty. It has always had to deal with character conversions though since EBCDIC was still alive when internet mail first came abobout 22:45:23 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 jasom: fine with me 22:45:58 anybody knows if jarw-inet is any good? 22:45:59 nanoc [~conanhome@186.128.47.187] has joined #lisp 22:46:00 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-029-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:46:34 The entire message is 7-bit ASCII and anything not in that format has to be encoded (uuencode and base64 being popular ways of doing it) 22:46:39 SrPx: my DNA is my source code, and it is open to all! I think my lisp is nice. Of course, C-M-q helps 22:46:57 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:47:41 drewc: what? Your DNA can't beautify.. oh.. 22:47:56 ;;; This boundary contains text which should never appear in the 22:47:56 ;;; message body. Hopefully that big random number converted to base 22:47:56 ;;; 36 (all numbers and alphabet) will be good enough for guaranteeing that. 22:47:57 drewc: not sure what's C-M-q but I'd need something separate from emacs 22:48:00 fuck me 22:48:05 sorry fo the languae 22:48:09 but what the hell 22:48:20 wakeup: ? 22:49:35 wakeup: oh, but then MIME can specify an 8bit format 22:49:43 SrPx: PRINT? 22:50:15 on second thought it is unlikely... 22:50:18 Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:19 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:10 (or : beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... so what exactly do you mean by "is there any good open source lisp beautifier?") 22:51:10 wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-70-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:32 batch reindenter? 22:52:26 turn scheme into CL to make it nicer? :P 22:52:40 -!- kmels [~kmels@95.115.38.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:53:05 (or CL into Kernel ... that is beholden as beauty to me!) 22:53:59 *Sgeo* should reread the Kernel spec at some point 22:54:12 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:54:38 -!- wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-151-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:54:42 -!- youlysse` [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:54:42 -!- Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:19 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:55:19 -!- paul0_ [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:26 Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:23 paul0_ [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has joined #lisp 22:56:24 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.33.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:25 -!- paul0_ is now known as paul0 22:57:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:37 -!- Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:27 Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:54 which system provides the package CLOS? 22:59:06 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:17 wakeup_: i don't know. i find it odd that you receive the error, as Xach builds all systems he includes in quicklisp. 22:59:17 there's no CLOS package. 22:59:18 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.64.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:59:26 CLOS is part of the COMMON-LISP package 23:01:00 madnificent: yeah me too, but I updated all dists, and when I try substituting CLOS with CL-USER I get Cannot IMPORT "COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION-INITARGS" from package "CLOS" 23:01:39 i'm on CCL 23:02:09 not that I know what the named function is 23:02:14 wakeup_: What library are you trying to use? 23:02:16 Im not so much into CLOS 23:02:19 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:02:21 sellout-: mime4cl 23:02:52 I am generally looking for a cl-mime replacement, since it's broken and if I could avoid to fix it I would. 23:03:22 wakeup_: Is it possibly SBCL-specific? 23:03:45 different general question of interest: is there a character encodng that binds the null byte, or say a series of ten null bytes? 23:04:56 compute-effective-slot-definition? where is that supposed to _be_ ... I tend to use c2mop if I want portability 23:05:08 the author doesn't seem to test for CCL 23:05:43 neithe does xach (not blaming him) 23:06:10 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:26 -!- Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:31 wakeup_: It looks SBCL-specific: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/mime4cl.html 23:06:57 Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:01 wakeup_: Xach just makes sure everything works on SBCL. Too time consuming to run on every impl. But cl-test-grid aggregates results across everything. 23:07:57 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:08:17 brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-179-45-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 they should integrate 23:08:32 an sbcl specific quicklisp kind of unserves the purpose 23:08:35 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:08:51 i'm sure that xach welcomes what you've just said. 23:09:01 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:02 I don't have the hardware to it though either... 23:09:18 maybe you want to word it a little stronger, to get your point across 23:09:49 on the up side, i expect quicklisp and clozure cl to be more friendly towards each other in the future. 23:09:51 wakeup_: Yeah, it's all in progress. If Xach could easily distribute the building and updating, he would. Feel free to work on that :) 23:09:53 -!- Fare [~fare@men75-12-88-183-198-131.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:05 H4ns: Xach's not allowed to run SBCL anymore :) 23:10:10 :D 23:10:25 he sold his soul!1!elf 23:10:36 hows that? 23:10:45 wakeup_: lispworks has a CLOS package 23:10:49 wakeup_: He was recently hired by Clozure. 23:10:54 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:02 cool 23:11:05 im envious 23:11:38 i think wroking for a lisp company could be great 23:11:45 wakeup_: It is :) 23:12:00 right now am a sys-op for the local math faculty 23:12:06 well long way to go ;) 23:12:50 guess I have to fix cl-qprint 23:13:35 Franz apparently wrte it 23:13:49 hope it was an intern 23:14:02 wakeup_: When I was in school, the math department had the cool computers (SGIs), while the CS department was MS-funded, so we just had tons of Windows boxes. 23:14:21 wakeup_: Any name attached to the files/commits? 23:14:52 Even if I knew I wouldnt accuse people now 23:14:56 sellout-: robert marlow. uses do. 23:15:04 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.128.47.187] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 23:15:07 -!- agumonkey [~agu@58.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:16:00 I like working for a lisp company! more than one for that matter. 23:16:02 is marlow still active? 23:16:02 H4ns: Wait, you deduced it was Marlow from the use of DO? Wow :) 23:16:18 sellout-: no. ;;;; Copyright (C) 2004 Robert Marlow 23:16:24 M-. ftw 23:16:27 Ah, heh. 23:16:32 and quicklisp, for that matter :D 23:16:40 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:50 *H4ns* is waiting for his lisp company to complain about more bugs in his software 23:17:17 guess I will mail him 23:17:42 with a patch 23:17:50 doesthiswork [~Adium@75.87.251.5] has joined #lisp 23:17:53 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:17:55 H4ns: heh ... just finished re-writing a 10 year old application ... and cannot wait for that company to complain about bugs, for it will mean that have used all the features! 23:21:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 23:22:26 drewc: for me, it is more the literal waiting kind where i really want to go to sleep and the company "needs" this thing working "now" 23:22:32 or else 23:24:23 is hating bad software a valid reason to program? 23:24:44 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 23:24:57 i never needed a reason to program other than just liking to do it. 23:25:15 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:26:40 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-204-182-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Quit: ] 23:27:01 H4ns: yeah, that I know way too much about as well ... 1 minute of downtime for this app could mean $100,000 lost ... so if my phone rings, or my wifes phone. or my friends phone, that means the 888 number has been dialed and I have work to do. Sleep is not on the schedule. 23:28:55 *drewc* does not think that hate of software is a good reason to program. But, like H4ns, does not need a valid reason beyond 'like programming he does!' 23:29:27 *jasom* has programmed because he hated a specific piece of software and wanted something better 23:30:55 I guess I do not hate or love the implementation of ideas ... I like coins, and do not care which way they are flipped. 23:32:50 drewc: how unpleasant 23:33:14 i mean the no sleep thing 23:33:19 as to coins, nice analogy 23:33:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-170-66.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:36:34 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-170-66.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:36:38 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.220.164] has joined #lisp 23:36:50 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p57B9AD5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:52 wakeup_: head/tails, up/down, birth/death, love/hate, open/shut ... I like coins, vertical direction, like, emotions and 'doors'... it is all about balance IMO 23:40:32 up down is more of real number rather than binary choice 23:40:58 and love and hate are two independent magnitudes 23:41:14 -!- brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-179-45-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:21 /ignore ^ ;) 23:41:41 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:44 brandonz [~brandon@adsl-76-254-48-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:20 -!- dl [~download@dhcp154.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:42:59 and given that the path from open to shut is coninuous there will be some inputs that do not resolve to ether open nor shut 23:43:39 but I like binary too :) 23:44:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:44:57 lichtblau: I think I found a bug in cxml 23:45:27 *drewc* does not think in binary and does not love/hate it ... he is Dru, after all, so likes the Trinity 23:50:58 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:28 base 2i is pretty fun too 23:52:30 -!- skanev [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has quit [Quit: skanev] 23:52:59 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:03 -!- brandonz [~brandon@adsl-76-254-48-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:05 base 2i? 23:56:32 Thra11 [~thrall@43.119.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:07 yes, the 1s place is multiplied by 2i the tens place by -4 the hundreds by -8i and the thousands by 16 23:57:21 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:58:16 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.203] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 23:58:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:56 crtxc [~10@unaffiliated/crtxc] has joined #lisp 23:59:00 although you need less digits if you use base square root 2 i 23:59:44 -!- crtxc [~10@unaffiliated/crtxc] has left #lisp