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joined #lisp 03:43:46 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 03:44:32 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:48 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has joined #lisp 03:46:06 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:20 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.142.109] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:47:20 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has joined #lisp 03:47:27 -!- saltmiser [~saltmiser@72.79.172.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:25 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.142.109] has joined #lisp 03:49:01 francisl_ [~flavoie@69.157.142.109] has joined #lisp 03:53:21 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-lslhaxahhnquehki] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:53:48 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-tfqhsdoderiewdrg] has joined #lisp 03:57:29 barik [~barik@short.csc.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 03:59:54 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:02:25 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 04:03:51 I read somewhere that threading is not standardized in cl, and only usable in some implementations. Is there any truth on this, or was it absolute BS? 04:04:30 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:04:39 It is entirely true. 04:05:01 But there are some cross-implementation libraries. 04:05:24 also, s/some/most/. 04:05:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:05:28 Denommus: most lisps I've used have threading support, and you can use something like bordeaux-threads to have a single api that works across all of them. 04:05:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:53 tessier [~treed@wsip-98-175-106-200.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:53 -!- tessier [~treed@wsip-98-175-106-200.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:06:53 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 04:07:07 is bordeaux-threads kernel-level or user-level threading? 04:07:13 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:07:58 neither. It hooks into whatever the implementation's threading API happens to be. I don't think there's any implementations with a working user-level thread implementation. 04:08:01 maybe cmucl? 04:08:23 sykopomp: not threading, or not working. 04:08:29 (for cmucl) 04:08:47 hm. Probably if I could compile it on MINIX it would be user-level there, then (since MINIX uses a user-level library) 04:09:09 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 04:09:14 I had an interesting idea today. But only an idea, for now 04:10:17 since MINIX aims to be "highly reliable, flexible, and secure", wouldn't it be interesting if its drivers would be rewritten in CL? 04:10:42 if a bug was detected in a driver, it could be corrected while still running 04:10:56 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:29 -!- impulse- [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960460.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:16:21 impulse- [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925079203.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:19:37 -!- renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:19:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:20:33 -!- techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:20:34 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@69.157.142.109] has quit [Quit: francisl_] 04:20:49 renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has joined #lisp 04:24:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:47 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 04:27:48 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:28:15 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:29:04 techlife [~jimmy@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 04:29:05 -!- techlife [~jimmy@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:29:32 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 04:31:09 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:32:02 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.10.55] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:32:30 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 04:32:30 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 04:32:30 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 04:34:12 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:34:26 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 04:34:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.180.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:35:17 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:49 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 04:35:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:36:18 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:51 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:37:13 agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:35 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:09 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:25 quick doubt 04:43:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:44:50 can I have two packages defined in the same system? Can I have one package inside another? 04:44:54 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:45:19 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:52 packages are global, but you can have as many as you want. 04:50:41 a system is just a set of files you happen to compile/load together. Packages are just namespaces for symbols. They're separate things entirely. 04:53:24 http://weitz.de/packages.html 04:54:58 Fade: yeah, I was reading that and the doubt came into my mind 04:55:14 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:55:47 I wanted to know simply if I could use packages inside of my project as a poor-man's namespace 04:56:38 and in fact I can 04:56:44 going to sleep, thank you 04:56:48 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going to sleep] 04:59:24 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 05:00:39 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:46 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:30 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:01:41 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-96-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:02:46 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:49 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 05:03:30 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-96-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:06:21 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:06:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:28 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 05:06:46 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has joined #lisp 05:06:49 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:37 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:30 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:13:25 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.133] has joined #lisp 05:14:04 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 05:14:55 mason2 [~mason2@37.244.145.31] has joined #lisp 05:15:23 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:16:01 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:29 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.142.109] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:20:08 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: no future] 05:20:35 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:23:19 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.133] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 05:25:25 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:26:59 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:17 -!- agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:29:39 -!- CoverSlide [~richard@pool-173-55-58-198.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:31:26 CoverSlide [~richard@pool-173-55-58-198.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:45 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:31:57 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 05:32:37 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-tfqhsdoderiewdrg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:34:27 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:36:36 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-mwlhanbtjyntupcs] has joined #lisp 05:37:45 this project looks dead, but is anybody still using it successfully? http://common-lisp.net/project/suave/ 05:38:49 ,suave 05:39:05 I'm trying to play around to see what some of its libraries can do but I have to fix up some of their package conflicts before I can even do that 05:44:09 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:53:11 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:54:00 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:54:43 -!- altm [~yo@ip225-133-15-186.ct.co.cr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:55:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 05:56:29 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:06 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:44 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:02:34 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 06:03:42 luqui [~luqui@184-96-152-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:13 i keep getting an error when i try to use a defun'd function from within a macro 06:04:26 i declared the function before the macro what could be going on? 06:05:02 luqui: the function may not be available at cmpile time. is this all in a file you're compiling? 06:05:15 yes 06:05:24 -!- mason2 [~mason2@37.244.145.31] has quit [Quit: mason2] 06:05:32 try wrapping the defun in an eval-when. 06:05:42 dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 06:06:11 never used eval-when. (eval-when :compile-toplevel) ? 06:06:25 er, modulo parens :-P 06:07:15 that did it. when is defun usually evaluated -- i'd like this function to be available normally too 06:08:12 luqui: just put all three in the eval-when and it should work 06:08:54 ok, thanks 06:09:25 yy [~yy@63.223.125.235] has joined #lisp 06:09:56 moving the function to a file that asdf loads before the file with the macro that uses it would work too. 06:11:01 -!- yy [~yy@63.223.125.235] has quit [Quit: ] 06:11:48 mason2 [~mason2@31.45.191.171] has joined #lisp 06:12:06 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:12:55 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:13:13 what libraries would one use when writing a web scraper? 06:13:44 drakma and one of the html parsers, probably? 06:13:57 mason2: http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/ 06:15:19 thanks, I will take a look 06:17:53 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit 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[~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 07:40:08 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-61-112.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:40:08 -!- [1]reckler is now known as reckler 07:42:59 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: oh nooooo] 07:48:35 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:48:58 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:21 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:a5b5:13d6:f545:3b18] has joined #lisp 07:49:47 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:50:19 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:50:57 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:52:09 jeppy [~shh@72.240.251.70] has joined #lisp 07:55:53 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:57:29 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:31 -!- dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:00:26 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:00:43 svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:03:06 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:a5b5:13d6:f545:3b18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:04:56 good morning! 08:06:48 morning 08:09:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:49 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 -!- jeppy [~shh@72.240.251.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:17:33 luqui [~luqui@71-218-16-247.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 08:18:31 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 08:19:41 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:53 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 08:21:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:29:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:31:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:34:45 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:18 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:35:54 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has joined #lisp 08:36:31 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 08:36:50 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:37:32 momo_ [~momo@63.223.125.235] has joined #lisp 08:38:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-szgpkqxavkserskg] has joined #lisp 08:40:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:07 what are people hacking today? 08:40:18 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:24 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:40:34 *H4ns* imports loads of slightly differing csv files into postgres 08:40:51 zorkmoid, reading old code i wrote 08:42:06 one such code is a solution to the following problem: given a list of N numbers (x1  xN), interpolate a list of M numbers with M > N, being sure that each x shows up in the interpolated list. 08:44:09 for instance: 08:44:11 CL-USER> (interpolate #(1.0 2.0 3.0) 5) 08:44:11 #(1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5 3.0) 08:44:41 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:46:05 interesting. 08:47:55 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:48:17 the way i did it probably isn't very straightforward, and is a bit too imperative for my tastes: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/9c60df5bbef8/linear-interpolation.lisp?at=default 08:48:19 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-73-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.2.190] has joined #lisp 08:49:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.2.190] has quit [Changing host] 08:49:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:56:04 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.2.190] has joined #lisp 08:57:02 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:05:14 -!- AntiTyping [~apliszka@74.73.56.156] has quit [Quit: AntiTyping] 09:06:04 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 09:08:04 smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:26 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:09:08 -!- n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:13:57 n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:30 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:20:00 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:21:01 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:32:06 what is lisp bettter not to use for ? programming a web server in lisp ? any other ? 09:32:43 elkng: there _are_ web servers in lisp, eg. hunchentoot, tpdp2. 09:33:04 elkng: lisp is very suited for programming web servers 09:33:30 what it no t sui ted for ? 09:33:32 what I'm _not_ using lisp for is short sysadmin scripts - text manipulation is much more concise in perl (at least for me). 09:33:41 I need to replace space on keyboard 09:34:02 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 09:34:03 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.2.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:34:11 elkng: lisp is not very suitable when you want to write platform-integrated gui applications (i.e. IOS, Android, Windows apps) 09:34:12 elkng, i don't recommend lisp if you want small executables. i don't recommend lisp if you want to program in a purely functional, typed programming environment 09:34:33 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:37 -!- seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:34:41 H4ns: with qt, you can write for windows, and eventually for Android and iOS 09:34:44 flip214: "much more concise in perl", because perl is: Practical Extraction and Reporting Language, and it w as made for that purpo se 09:34:56 stassats`: right. that is what my "platform integrated" attribute is about 09:35:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:18 SanderM [~quassel@2001:610:180:1:a00:27ff:fe27:5268] has joined #lisp 09:35:22 -!- cibs [~cibs@219-87-142-18.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:35:26 -!- kyl [~kyle_dev@deathstar.tyrfingr.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:35:29 H4ns: qt aims to look integrated 09:35:39 kyl [~kyle_dev@deathstar.tyrfingr.is] has joined #lisp 09:35:41 cibs [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has joined #lisp 09:36:04 there is no memory leaks in lisp applications ? 09:36:05 stassats`: i'm not saying that it is impossible. it is just much easier to write these types of applications with a vendor-supported programming language. 09:36:16 elkng, lisp programs can leak memory 09:36:49 no language can protect from memory leaks 09:37:04 just do an infinite loop allocating stuff, and boom 09:37:49 elkng, there are a few principal ways: you're doing FFI stuff, or you're not clearing some kinds of caches (or not using a weak hash table) 09:38:11 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:38:12 Quadrescence: but there are no malloc/free in lisp ? 09:38:19 one cant deallocate memory ? 09:38:26 correct 09:38:44 Quadrescence: no way to free up memory when it needed ? 09:39:00 memory will automatically be freed if no part of your program can access it 09:39:05 if one previously used a lot and now it not needed what to do ? 09:39:20 haven't you heard of such a thing as garbage collection? 09:39:34 in theory, lisp can't leak memory ... 09:39:43 what it can do is use execssive amounts of memory. 09:39:43 i'd be surprised if you didn't 09:39:48 lots of consing for example 09:40:00 stassats`: I also heard that one can get "null" value to something to indirectly call garbage collector 09:40:06 calling it leaks is a bit misleading, since leaks is when youforget to deallocate memory you use 09:40:13 zorkmoid, you can "leak" memory by forgetting to unpin objects you're not using. 09:40:21 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:34 Quadrescence: right, but that isn't a "leak" in the normal definition of leaks. 09:40:51 zorkmoid, deleting from a hash table isn't much different than calling free() 09:40:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:57 Quadrescence: there is such thing as "unpin" after all ? 09:41:01 both are programmer errors 09:41:16 elkng, no, i used it in a sense that lisp people in here probably understand 09:41:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:25 all you can do is really call gc and be happy.. 09:41:37 elkng: (defvar *x* (make-array 1000)) (setf *x* nil) 09:41:45 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 09:41:45 elkng: unused values are garbage collected; if you want to "lose" an object, just set the reference to it to something else, like NIL 09:41:56 or (setf *x* "something completely different") 09:42:31 Quadrescence: what's wrong with a 10KB executable? 09:42:52 it is a pitty that you can't control the gc from cl programs prortably.. 09:42:54 it doesn't " indirectly call garbage collector", it just makes the object inaccessible from this particular location 09:43:04 ogamita, do most (free) lisp implementations you use produce 10KB execs? 09:43:33 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:43:39 most free lisp implementations are a bit constrained by tight integration, or the fact that the runtime isn't common at all 09:43:52 zorkmoid, one might argue continuously interning symbols is another form of memory leak 09:43:55 (CPython won't make a 10kB executable either) 09:43:59 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 09:44:14 Quadrescence: well, i wouldn't call it a leak .. but yeah 09:44:23 ah, how i missed the "large executables" discussion. it must have been HOURS since it stopped 09:44:52 H4ns: haha 09:44:53 i find that discussions about large lisp executables to be quite silly... 09:44:54 :) 09:44:59 Quadrescence: i just made a hello world executable with SBCL, it is 689 bytes 09:45:21 H4ns: are there some issues with large executables ? 09:45:24 jdz, i see. I have never been able to do that 09:45:33 elkng: no. there are no issues with them. 09:45:44 Quadrescence: you just do "chmod +x hello.fasl" and you got it 09:45:59 :/ 09:46:17 bitonic [~user@5acdf831.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 jdz: that is so big ... 09:46:52 zorkmoid: well, it's with high debugging setting and stuff 09:47:04 jdz, it's in my opinion that that is a bit disingenuous :) 09:47:15 jdz: mine has even higher debugging settings, and it is only 58 bytes. 09:47:53 zorkmoid: you need to improve a lot more than me to get to 10k 09:48:07 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:50:20 -!- nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-173.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:50:46 H4ns, I hate to bring up the large exe discussion, but I think that -- or rather the much more general case of poor application delivery across popular implementations -- is worth bringing up in regards to the question on what lisp is and isn't good at. 09:51:11 Quadrescence: quite frankly, i do not find delivering lisp applications very hard 09:51:37 jdz: nah 09:51:38 Quadrescence: you don't need that most implementation generate small executables. You only need that some of them do. clisp does. ecl even more so. 09:51:41 Quadrescence: it is more than "deliver one executable", but it is much less involved than, say, making an osx application without the help of xcode 09:51:59 nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-173.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:52:29 Quadrescence: and furthermore, the commercial lisps have application delivery as part of their product offering. i don't see the point of the discussion. but that is just me, do continue. 09:52:42 H4ns, I don't think it's very hard. Xach's buildapp is an (SBCL) example that makes it easy. But I don't think it's anywhere near optimal. 09:52:42 or dont 09:52:53 And yes, the state of commercial application delivery is much better. 09:52:54 Depends what you deliver. As I explained to a non-lisper recently, you don't care about it for something that runs on a server and where 300MB exe is nothing (that's actually pretty common for bigger, long-lived server-side software written in other languages, too), if you need small self-contained exes to be downloaded over net, the 1200 for LW stops being such big number 09:53:20 H4ns:t he point of the discussion is to dispel misconceptions. 09:53:26 jdz, it might be a boring discussion for people who have heard it already, but it's not as boring for people who haven't heard it 09:53:42 EVERY FUCKING DAY! 09:53:52 there is a new visitor to this channel every day, so there. 09:54:02 i'm not complaing. this is just satire. 09:54:56 H4ns: yes. I agree, it'd be nice to have a bot that would take new visitor between four eyes, and drill them into the head the goodness of lisp :-) 09:55:16 ogamita: meanwhile, you'll do that. i got that point :) 09:55:56 (actually, the only reason i brought it up was to scratch an itch over issues i had with deploying an application to >1000 machines. and issues a friend had trying to "turn in" an executable for a university assignment) 09:57:19 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:57:44 university assignments have to be executables? oh dear. 09:57:55 p_l: > if you need small self-contained exes to be downloaded over net, the 1200 for LW stops being such big number 09:58:08 When did money enter this topic? 09:58:30 naryl: you just quoted that point 09:58:38 jdz, similar to an electronic exam, some professors only care when what you wrote for a given input works or not, and not bother compiling for every student, etc 09:58:43 "small self-contained exes to be downloaded over net" != "commercial applications" 09:59:14 naryl, he is saying if you want small self-contained apps, buy a lisp works license 09:59:16 Quadrescence: my relative has a nice windows box full of viruses, that's where i'd compile all my assignments 09:59:19 agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:50 or even make my own trojan 09:59:50 jdz, everything was run in a sandbox. i don't see the big deal. 10:01:00 -!- n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:01:06 1200 to start writing an app which is not intended to bring me any money is a bit too much for my wallet. I bet for anyone's. 10:01:07 oh, so they're smart enough to install a sanbox, but not smart enough to install a lisp compiler. 10:02:02 naryl: if the app has no value for you or the users, then they should not care about its size, either 10:02:07 naryl: commercial too. There are different markets 10:02:24 ecl compiles to smallish, platform-friendly executables 10:02:33 jdz, it has nothing to do with intelligence 10:02:59 Quadrescence: yeah, and i don't care either way. really. 10:03:01 (and not everything of value can be priced sensibly. That doesn't stop the discussion about delivering small native executables being terribly boring) 10:03:03 jdz: It has a value but has no cost. 10:03:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7552ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:14 naryl: everything has a cost. 10:03:21 and should have value 10:03:52 and we're off-topic 10:04:47 n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:23 the complacency toward quality application delivery does really show in open source implementations. that'll be my last words about that and more interesting discussions can follow 10:07:45 kranius [~kranius@88.190.20.197] has joined #lisp 10:08:44 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.53] has joined #lisp 10:08:47 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.53] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:09:52 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.53] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:10:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:11:05 "one kind of application delivery" 10:11:38 erm, sorry, got dragged into a discussion about biology here .. 10:12:03 jdz: my hello world program: (defun hello-world () (format t "Hello, world!") (values)) 10:12:20 jdz: full debuggability.. :-) 10:14:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:15:30 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:15:36 jdz, and only 58 bytes. 10:17:12 mm... maybe i should try lw someday.. 10:19:47 the problem is extrapolating from hello world to something that actually does something useful 10:20:23 No internationaliztion. Tsk, tsk. 10:21:39 Are there any internationalisation libraries for CL? 10:22:17 minion: cl-i18n? 10:22:23 cl-i18n: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-i18n 10:24:18 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:14 -!- dpwright [~daniel@li413-20.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:26:11 dpwright [~daniel@li413-20.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:30 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d029b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:26:59 leoc [~leoc.git@p5480ACB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:35 Krystof: well, as with any program: (whatever function to start it) 10:28:08 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:48 like, (ed) to start your standard editor... 10:30:17 -!- inverse [~inverse@24-119-70-72.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 10:30:56 inverse [~inverse@24-119-70-72.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:40 -!- inverse [~inverse@24-119-70-72.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:34:15 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.181.111] has joined #lisp 10:35:39 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:49 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:42:06 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:42:22 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:45:16 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:46:05 -!- bitonic [~user@5acdf831.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:46:14 -!- momo_ [~momo@63.223.125.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:51 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0481.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:23 -!- browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.181.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:53:45 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 10:55:38 do people still use DEFSYSTEM? 10:55:49 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:56:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:57:07 of course 10:57:25 mmm... 10:57:33 it is still part of the standard allegro cl offering, and there is no hint that it would be deprecated or anything. 10:57:51 i'm not sure if allegro cl users are "people" in your sense of the word, though. 10:58:44 hehehe 11:03:25 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:04:03 momo_ [~momo@61.173.30.186] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06:53 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:07:15 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:07:16 didn't LW offer it's own variant as well? 11:07:23 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:13:43 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has joined #lisp 11:13:56 -!- luqui [~luqui@71-218-16-247.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 11:16:18 zorkmoid: (asdf:defsystem ) of course. 11:16:54 zorkmoid: otherwise, you would have to precise, there are at least half a dozen defsystem that have been used. 11:16:59 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has left #lisp 11:17:09 ogamita: i mean the original one ... 11:17:33 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:06 No, the original one, nobody use it anymore. Before asdf, most libraries used either their own defsystem or some defsystem 3.something. 11:20:28 yeah, i know.. 11:20:34 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 11:21:34 Further, the original defsystem probably wasn't written in Common Lisp, but some older lisp. 11:21:44 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:06 In my sbcl repl (when I run it from the command line) it interprets the arrow keys like: ^[[C, etc. so I can't go back on a line, or access history or anything. Is this the correct behavior? Should I put something in my ~/.sbclrc? 11:22:59 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:22:59 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-121.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:23:02 minion: linedit 11:23:02 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has joined #lisp 11:23:03 linedit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/linedit 11:23:05 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 11:23:18 or just rlwrap 11:23:56 impaktor: clisp has a command line editor built in 11:24:01 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:45 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:26:03 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.153] has joined #lisp 11:26:21 impaktor: rlwrap sbcl or emacs --eval '(require (quote slime))' --eval '(slime)' 11:26:41 or just emacs --eval '(slime)' if you've required it in ~/.emacs 11:27:32 Guest61082 [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:28:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:29:47 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:32 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:25 -!- Guest61082 [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:35 Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:36 ogamita: it works fine from emacs, it's when I run sbcl from the terminal that I can't use arrow keys. 11:45:02 moofy [~GIR@46-65-19-243.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:45:43 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:08 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:30 impaktor: the reason for that is that every program that wants to support arrow keys (i.e. do line editing) needs to implement it itself in linux 11:46:51 impaktor: emacs is an editor, so it does what a line editor does, and more. 11:47:10 impaktor: if you start sbcl in the shell, then there is no editor and your arrow keys are not properly dealt with 11:47:41 impaktor: you need to either wrap sbcl in a program that does the line editing for you (i.e. rlwrap) or you can choose an implementation that has a line editor built in. 11:47:58 impaktor: most of us use emacs all the time, so we're not bothered by the lack of a line editor in sbcl much. 11:48:14 H4ns: So it doesn't use readline or equivalent? 11:48:19 impaktor: no. 11:48:58 impaktor: readline is distributed under the gpl and as such incompatbile with sbcl's license. readline is also the reason why clisp is distributed under the gpl. 11:49:09 minion: tell impaktor about linedit 11:49:10 linedit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/linedit 11:49:11 and there is linedit, too. 11:49:13 right. 11:49:15 :D 11:49:56 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:50:45 I often find myself where I just (in the command line) what to do a simple computation, sometimes I do it from gnuplot (pr 2**10) or from python (2**10), so to use SBCL, I'm best off starting emacs and slime, or installing rlwrap, I understand. 11:51:09 or use clisp for that purpose. 11:51:40 right. 11:51:49 or have a slime session running at all times 11:51:52 Or learn what 2^10 is. :) 11:52:06 if one removed loop and pcl from sbcl then it would be gpl compatible. 11:52:11 have anyone read "Note" on 257 page in the book "Land of Lisp" ? 11:52:12 jdz: you mean slime + emacsclient. 11:52:19 impaktor: not really 11:52:22 elkng: what does it say? 11:52:25 zorkmoid: if that'd be a goal 11:52:56 H4ns: though .. i think loop is licensed under mit nowadays ... mit released the whole lispm source code, so including loop .. 11:53:02 pcl i dunno ... maybe use closette.. 11:53:15 zorkmoid: So clisp has a different implementation of loop and pcl than sbcl? 11:53:41 ikki [~ikki@187.208.217.71] has joined #lisp 11:53:49 zolk3ri: "To readers from the distant future, lolcats was a viral Internet phenomenon from early in the third millennium. It involved pictures of cats with funny captions. If people of your time are no longer familiar with lolcats, it is of no great 11:53:53 loss." 11:53:55 how people may not to know who lolcats are ? 11:54:02 impaktor: afaik, yes. 11:54:15 or author assumed that book will be read in 2150 ? 11:54:23 even then lolcats will be popular 11:54:30 elkng: #lispcafe 11:54:35 people lik e lolcats 11:54:43 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:54:48 impaktor: i haven't checked 11:55:06 H4ns: you are not in #lispcafe 11:55:13 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:55:27 elkng: that's the point. 11:56:02 why /top 11:56:19 impaktor: yup, bruno and sam implemented it. 11:56:22 why it says "Topic set by nitro_id_" b ut there is no "nitro_id_" only "nitro_idiot" 11:56:26 ? 11:56:33 Uhm. hello. I'm very new to lisp and i wondered if i could ask how one might insert a character into a string at a specific point? I can't work it out. 11:56:38 or at the time of setting topic he was nitro_idiot ? 11:56:38 elkng: can you discuss that in #lispcafe, too? 11:57:18 moofy: are you tinking emacs? 11:57:30 uhh, no 11:57:32 moofy: it may be easier to think about constructing a new string instead of inserting one into an existing string. 11:57:36 moofy: since cl doesn't have a concept of "point" 11:57:50 oh. 11:58:29 i'm actually trying to go through a racket tutorial but nobody seems to be about in their channel and i figured something that simple was probably common across lisps. but I suppose it might not be. 11:58:37 moofy: you probobly want to modify a string, correct? aref or anything like that will work. 11:58:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58:49 which is usually my problem in coding, assuming too much -_- 11:59:02 moofy: this channel is about common lisp, which is not very similar to scheme or racket. 11:59:08 apologies 11:59:47 -!- moofy [~GIR@46-65-19-243.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 12:02:42 -!- stassats` changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.1.4, Hunchentoot 1.2.11, cl-fad 0.7.0, Yason 0.6.3 12:03:44 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:04:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 12:08:23 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0481.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:09:25 zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:09:48 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 12:12:39 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:24 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 12:17:07 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-43-126.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:18:18 jerryzhou [~gururui@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:18:32 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.22.99] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.22.99] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.22.99] has quit [Changing host] 12:18:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:18:59 hi 12:19:20 what do you guys use lisp for? 12:19:41 <|3b|> programming, generally 12:20:36 so web programming or what others? 12:20:50 Web apps are pretty easy to deploy, I'd say 12:21:03 especially nowadays that VPSes became the norm 12:21:07 jerryzhou: for bioinformatics and other weirdo stuff. 12:21:33 *|3b|* uses lisp for everything but simple shell scripting 12:21:57 <|3b|> web, 3d gfx, number crunching, text processing, etc 12:21:58 i don't think ih ave touched anything but cl for the past 15 years ... luck me! :-) 12:22:01 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-39-10.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:22:05 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:22:16 I hope that your cave is warm. :) 12:22:21 Zhivago: very! 12:22:51 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.205.169.238.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 12:22:56 pays the bills, travel, and house after all.. 12:22:57 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-96-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:22:58 jerryzhou: dsl, but it is wrong way 12:23:01 couldn't be better 12:23:10 what is dsl 12:23:12 *|3b|* would be using CL to keep my cave warm, but was too lazy to finish that, so just using an existing python program instead :( 12:23:30 what is yours lisp programming enviroment 12:23:39 i am a newer 12:23:44 <|3b|> emacs+slime is common 12:24:04 <|3b|> with sbcl or ccl or clisp implementation of CL 12:24:40 <|3b|> ('lisp' is interpreted as 'Common Lisp' in this channel) 12:25:08 Joreji [~thomas@90-191.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:16 i have emacs in slackware14 12:25:18 jerryzhou: domain-specific language 12:26:08 jerryzhou: emacs and slime 12:26:31 i see 12:26:34 always wanted to try lw or allegro in a more real environment .. but i have never been able to justify the price tag 12:27:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:22 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:31 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:54 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:33:57 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 12:34:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-191.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:35:08 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1222-121.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:05 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.211.97] has joined #lisp 12:39:18 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:42:45 zorkmoid: depending on project, Allegro might give you an eval license 12:42:50 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42:59 just remember to *call*, not just email, if you're impatient :D 12:43:54 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:46:13 hehe 12:46:46 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:28 jerryzhou: for *everything*! with current free implementations i think it's suited for just about anything where you have enough memory available. and i use it for web stuff and shell scripts, mainly. but then again, that's just what i code :) 12:49:13 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 12:49:53 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:04 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:36 jerryzhou: emacs+slime seems to be the defacto standard environment for programming lisp these days. it's quite good too. it does take some extra learning to become in fluent in emacs, but it's certainly worth it on the long run. 12:50:43 zorkmoid: Craig, Franz's VP of Sales, is cool guy, at least on getting people to experience Allegro :D 12:50:51 minion: please tell jerryzhou about slime.mov 12:50:51 jerryzhou: direct your attention towards slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 12:50:57 -!- zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:18 not that this video is quite old, so slime is even better now 12:51:45 wow souds great 12:52:56 yes 12:53:08 stassats`: took me a while to get to that level though. i learned a lot from that video. have i missed some essential slime documents to learn all the magick commands? 12:53:23 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7552ff.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:53:37 madnificent: I was pleased to discover slime/swank-js, although it has some quirks still, and isn't quite as featureful as the CL version. 12:53:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002cfe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 (there's that other thing that uses paredit, too) 12:55:42 sykopomp: i'll probably win the time i look at that back in the mid-long term. thanks 12:56:05 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:57:02 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.147.24] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 madnificent: do you read slime-tips? 12:59:03 stassats`: yeah, they were helpful. but, like lisptips, it's a resource for little gems, not for seeing what all is available. 12:59:27 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:59:30 stassats`: i'm happy with the way it is, but if there's a full-fledged manual or something of the likes, i'd have liked to know 12:59:36 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.86.166] has joined #lisp 12:59:50 M-x slime-info 13:01:18 it's missing many new things, though 13:01:28 stassats`: ah, that's a tad sad 13:01:40 still, it probably contains things i don't know yet 13:03:12 -!- jerryzhou [~gururui@58.245.253.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:05:11 when i was young and idealistic, i updated the manual entries, but not anymore 13:05:40 i understand 13:08:19 and people don't even read what's there, so there's no much 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zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 16:07:11 ikki [~ikki@187.208.217.71] has joined #lisp 16:07:37 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-244.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:08:43 SrPx [~SrPx@177.159.42.97] has joined #lisp 16:08:58 impulse- [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925079433.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:11:13 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.159.42.97] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:36 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:14:27 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:27 -!- joneshf [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:14:30 if I am working with a C librarf 16:14:46 through CFFI 16:15:05 what is the standard way of handling C style errors 16:15:48 do I make a defcfun wrapper that does int return and errno location or do I call the cfun with some calling wrapper? 16:17:05 theoretically, it should be a C wrapper for portability (AFAIK errno_location / get_errno is just an implementation detail) 16:17:38 wrapping it and using a condition is ideal imo 16:18:00 wrapping at what level is what I am pondering about 16:18:12 having the C API available is nice too, though, for others that may have C wrappers that use/interface with yours, depending on the situation 16:18:17 -!- pdts [~user@66-194-114-178.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 16:18:18 quchen [~david@wthp166d.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 freiksenet: I avoid C wrappers as much as possible. Unless I really know what I want, I go for a low-level FFI package and wrap that in conditions, etc. later. 16:19:59 that way, the part that requires thinking and tweaking happens in regular lisp, and I can easily go under the hood if needed. 16:20:02 pkhuong: is there any example of that? 16:20:13 in cl-cairo for instance, they made a (with-checked-status ...) macro that does all the error checking for the block 16:20:17 Hello everyone. When I define a Lambda that includes an external variable, does the Lambda store that variable? If I change the variable later, does the Lambda get affected? 16:20:39 I mean, I think I am getting lost in what everyone means by wrappers etc, because is ambigoues 16:20:43 ambigous* 16:20:59 quchen it does 16:21:09 freiksenet: "wrapper" just means "i make a function/macro/etc that makes this less raw C and more nice lisp-style" 16:22:08 freiksenet: C wrappers are (hopefully) tiny C routines to which you link and FFI instead of the wrapped library. 16:22:09 "lisp-style" is pretty broad too .. keyword arguments? setf? your call .. but usually return-value checking is out for errors, unless you're actually checking the value of a returned object (e.g., did my query get an empty list) 16:22:27 kennyd_: Thanks. How do I write closures then, i.e. get Lambdas that remember the environment as when it was defined? 16:22:31 that is IMHO of course, but based on observation of other wrappers 16:22:33 <|3b|> quchen: a lambda has access to any bindings in effect when the lambda was created 16:22:54 oGMo: but it's useful to have multiple-value returns in a %low-level package, and an idiomatic wrapper can turn that into a default return value, condition, etc. as needed. 16:23:00 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:18 |3b|: Well yes. The question was whether the Lambda reads these bindings and stores their values internally, or whether the lambda looks up the values when it is executed. 16:23:27 pkhuong: sure .. implementation can vary 16:23:34 xenon_ [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 16:23:43 |3b|: In the first case, a Lambda would only depend on the explicitly mentioned parameters, in the second one it could also include globals. 16:23:53 (At the call site, that is) 16:24:10 <|3b|> quchen: the only 'globals' in CL are 'special variables' which have dynamic scope 16:24:34 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:17 Okay, thanks :-) 16:25:33 <|3b|> lambdas with free variables will create closures, which will close over the lexical binding of that variable 16:25:37 quchen most languages that allow mutability handle closures like that. perhaps you want to wrap the variable inside the additional let before closing it 16:25:43 oGMo: I'm more worried about how to get to the final interface than about the end result itself. Making an interface convenient in lisp can take a lot of tweaking, failed experiments, etc. The low-level FFI definitions simply reflect the foreign library, in contrast. 16:26:22 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 <|3b|> if the binding is changes outside the lambda, the lambda will see the new value. if there is a new binding (for example running a function that returns a lambda), previous lambdas won't see the new binding 16:26:45 kennyd_: I'm trying to understand evaluation in Lisp, and that one surprised me. I would've expected the opposite behavior. 16:27:07 why? closure is closing over the variable, not the value 16:27:36 <|3b|> smart compilers might avoid creating a closure if the free variable is provably never modified though 16:27:54 |3b|: constants? 16:27:57 Oh. Then either I'm completely wrong or it's something else in Haskell. 16:28:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:28:31 <|3b|> sykopomp: stuff like (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)) 16:28:52 I mean, 'globals' in CL. 16:28:57 constants are global too. 16:29:07 -!- capisce [~srodal@oftn/member/capisce] has left #lisp 16:29:09 <|3b|> ah, right, i should have said 'global variables' 16:29:17 there's no standard for global -lexicals-, though. 16:29:25 constants are variables too! 16:29:27 :D 16:29:29 *|3b|* wouldn't expect anyone to change constants though 16:29:44 <|3b|> or for them to have been closed over even if someone did 16:29:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:08 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:14 sykopomp: if you really need them, you can portably hack them up because with define-symbol-macro. 16:30:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:21 quchen haskell doesn't allow you to mutate variables. you can just shadow them 16:30:44 |3b|: What do you mean with "closed over"? Something like (let ((x 1)) x) "closes over" x, because the x won't be accessible outside? 16:31:14 <|3b|> quchen: (let ((x 1)) (list (lambda () x) (lambda () (incf x)))) 16:31:27 <|3b|> the functions returned both close over the binding of X in the LET 16:31:41 xenon_: Well, IORefs. But yeah, going back to mutable state is odd. 16:31:43 <|3b|> if you call the second function, the value returned by the first will change 16:32:12 <|3b|> if you evaluate the LET again, it will return 2 more functions that will behave the same way, but be independent of the first set 16:32:50 <|3b|> so by 'close over' i more or less mean 'create a closure that can see' or something like that 16:33:11 it isn't a perfect metaphor. 16:33:14 quchen yeah it has that but you are not mutating the variable, you can't make it refer to another IORef. but if you want to make the IORef analogy, if you modify it the lambda that captured it will also have the modified value 16:33:15 but it's the one people use. 16:33:58 xenon_: I think no Haskell analogon will work here. Which is probably what confuses me ;-) But |3b|'s explanation made me feel like I understand now. 16:34:00 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.122] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:35:27 globalsymbol-macros are global lexical. 16:35:28 <|3b|> the bit about it returning an independent set of functions each time that LET is evaluated is why i was talking about 'bindings' rather than 'variables' 16:36:23 <|3b|> possibly should have been more specific and said 'lexical bindings' 16:38:05 -!- newblue [~newblue@119.121.250.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:38:39 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 16:39:14 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.22.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:39:18 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:39:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:40:09 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:46 -!- drmeister 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[~deg@87.69.114.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:26 deg [~deg@87.69.114.80] has joined #lisp 19:49:34 So I'm writing a Common Lisp compiler in C++ to create a bridge between C++ and Common Lisp that will allow integration of C++ libraries into Common Lisp code. 19:50:13 I'm planning to open-source the C++ and compiler and I'm planning to host the thing on Github. 19:50:25 have you heard of XCL? 19:50:29 It's going to be called "Scientific Common Lisp". Any thoughts? 19:51:01 it would be annoying to have something that semi-conflicts with Scieneer 19:51:05 drmeister: There is already Scineer CL, might be a bit of a collision. 19:52:18 I don't think there's a DCL yet. 19:52:27 Sellout: Great - now I have to come up with another name - or do I? 19:52:42 drmeister: http://www.cliki.net/XCL 19:52:54 dlowe: Dr Common Lisp? ;) 19:52:58 *drewc* will not comment on why he thinks that 'Scientific' is a terrible terrible name ;) 19:53:04 sellout-: that was my initial thought too 19:53:08 -!- deg [~deg@87.69.114.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:15 deg [~deg@87.69.114.80] has joined #lisp 19:53:23 I'd try not to collide with existing CL acronyms, though 19:53:29 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.155.194] has joined #lisp 19:53:56 upcl sounds nice, honestly. 19:54:21 "Ballegro CL" :) 19:54:26 dlowe: Ok, that's why I'm putting this out here. 19:54:28 BCL is out too 19:54:34 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:55:03 I'll work on it some more then. I liked "Scientific Common Lisp" because I'm a scientist. 19:55:13 And it sounds "Sciency". 19:55:20 LLCL seems appropriate too 19:55:39 Ballin' CL 19:55:50 LLCL - hmmm, that kind of rolls off the tongue. 19:56:18 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.19] has joined #lisp 19:56:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.19] has quit [Changing host] 19:56:18 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:27 minion: what does LLCL stand for? 19:56:28 Leisurely Lithochemistry Common Lisp 19:56:28 Or "CLLL" - just kidding. 19:56:29 LLCL is good, how about 'CL++' ? 19:56:43 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-206-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:56:55 drmeister: there's already Sciener CL, for multi-threading scientific CL. 19:57:03 drmeister: try to find another name. 19:57:14 tccl (The Chemist's CL) ? 19:57:16 stassats: LLVM stands for "Low Level Virtual Machine - but the project has moved way beyond that but kept the name. LLCL would stand for "LL(vm)CL" I guess. 19:57:49 i like Leisurely Lithochemistry better 19:58:02 You could just go with something unrelated too, liked "Armed Bear" 19:58:26 "Weaponized Aardvark" say 19:58:29 wacl 19:58:33 I'd like to stay away from anything like "C++CL" or "CL++". Even though it's written in C++ and talks to C++ I don't like C++. 19:58:39 minion: what does WACL stand for? 19:58:39 Weever Ambulance Common Lisp 19:58:49 srsly? 19:59:06 minion: what does BBCL stand for? 19:59:06 Budmash Bushed Common Lisp 19:59:12 oh, ok 19:59:13 minion: what does LLCL stand for? 19:59:13 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 34 seconds is too many. 19:59:20 minion: what does CPCL stand for? 19:59:20 Ok, well this is getting silly. I have some work to do on the name. 19:59:28 drmeister: ask it what LLCL means. 19:59:29 wacl rolls off the tongu 19:59:38 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:43 minion: What does LLCL mean? 19:59:45 I'd go with weaponized aardvark 19:59:52 minion got tired 20:00:00 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:05 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:05 minion: what does LLCL stand for? 20:00:10 it's dead. 20:00:10 you think it's easy coming up with implementation names? 20:00:21 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:00:21 Naming things well is hard. 20:00:27 Yep. 20:00:37 minion: are you dead? 20:00:38 maybe 20:00:49 WPCL: Winner Programmer's CL 20:01:13 chemicl 20:01:25 what about TCL? 20:01:59 -!- deg [~deg@87.69.114.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:30 sykopomp: TentaCLe? 20:02:33 hmm... 'Pound CL'? ... nah, PCL exists ... 20:03:03 drmeister: owlcl 20:03:06 what about not using CL in the name? 20:03:19 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:41 heresy! 20:04:02 stassats`: "Tickly Common Lisp" 20:04:08 dlowe: Temple University (where I'm at) mascot is the owl. But I don't think so. 20:04:11 stassats`: true .. C++ is not C but uses it in the name, so something that is C++ and Common Lisp should not use C or CL at all! 20:04:17 drmeister: that was the inspiration *shrug* 20:04:40 CLPP/CL++ is clearly the winner 20:04:46 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:54 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.224] has joined #lisp 20:04:57 C++L 20:05:07 stassats`: perfect! 20:05:19 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:26 +CL+ 20:05:27 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:56 stassats`: Good nickname for the ANSI spec. 20:06:13 I'll have to think on this more. But Github is a good idea right? I haven't open-sourced anything before. 20:06:27 drmeister: Yeah, github is a really good idea. 20:06:45 (defvar ++ "RAPY ") and then (format nil "C~AL" ++) :) 20:07:01 *drewc* now knows what he is going to name his implementation! 20:07:13 Ok, one of my students and I are going to clean things up code-wise and legal-wise and try and get this out in the next couple of months. 20:07:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:29 i'm going to name an implementation after myself, using initials 20:07:49 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:02 stassats: There's an idea - that would make it CEAFSCL. 20:08:10 Keep It stassats` Simple 20:08:15 I have three middle names - German family tradition. 20:08:33 so, it'd SBCL, in my case 20:08:44 Catchy. 20:08:55 And I'll name the executable christianernstaugustfredrichschafmeistercl 20:09:04 nobody said that i have to write it from scratch! 20:09:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:20 heh ... my last middle name, depending which forms I fill out in what province, is either my first name, or my confirmation name, or my 'middle' name. Ahh Canada. 20:10:34 A couple of days ago I was on asking about implementing the QUOTE special operator. 20:10:55 I read the discussion again a few times and the relevant CLHS pages. 20:11:18 My problem is that I have to lower the compiled QUOTE special operator into an LLVM module and I'm trying to figure out how to do that. 20:12:18 LLVM modules can store integers and strings and double precision values. Constructing complex data structures like CONSes especially with the boost::shared_ptr's I use looks difficult. 20:12:20 what's that mean? it's part of the evaluator or compiler, shouldn't need it as a separate thing at runtime exactly 20:12:37 But it is easy to generate code that generates these things. 20:13:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:13:16 So I was going to have QUOTE generate code to generate CONSes and stuff and then evaluate it when the fasl file loads and then use references to those generated objects within the code. 20:13:26 Is that an acceptable approach to implementing QUOTE? 20:14:21 if i'm understanding you it seems fine. you don't have to coalesce anything. 20:15:03 Bike: What do you mean? My reader reads the text and generates sexps. The sexps get compiled into a series of calls to LLVM C++ routines that build the module. When I load the module it has to generate objects that are _similar_ to the objects the reader read. 20:15:14 Bike: Got it. 20:15:39 can't you just generate data alongside with code? 20:15:43 _similar_ as defined in the CLHS glossary. 20:16:03 *drewc* has no idea, for implemented QUOTE second, After READ and before EVAL , and has little clue what is going on at all. and besides is a CL developer, not a CL implementation creator, so his implementations are no so great 20:16:40 quoted forms can't be modified, so you can just allocate it during compilation 20:16:56 stassats: It's easy to generate primitive data like integers, doubles, strings and pointers. I'm sure that I can put more complicated structures together but I have to replicate the memory layout that the C++ compiler would generate - that may be delicate. 20:17:42 For example: To store a BIGNUM - I write the base 10 string representation to the module and when the module is loaded back I call (make-bignum "3284293482938423") 20:18:20 seems wasteful 20:18:22 The (make-bignum xxxx) call is actually done by a primitive "extern C" function that you pass the string too. 20:19:16 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:19:37 stassats: The other option is to extract the "unsigned int" components of the BIGNUM and store those in the module in an array and then use them to recreate the BIGNUM when it loads. 20:19:52 that seems like it would be faster? 20:19:59 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:17 what's BIGNUM if not an array of words? 20:20:31 It would be faster but it would also be subject to issues like endian-ness and word-order-ness wouldn't it? 20:20:35 can't you create a BIGNUM structure at compile-time? 20:21:07 are you making your fasls platform-independent? 20:21:45 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:23:15 stassats: You know, I don't think I can make the fasls platform-independent. 20:23:16 no one ever expects FASLs to be fast, do they? 20:23:42 stassats: LLVM isn't platform independent like the Java virtual machine is. 20:23:54 sykopomp: but there's no reason to make them deliberately slow 20:24:06 drmeister: so, endianness isn't an issue 20:24:11 stassats`: curbing expectations 20:25:28 stassats`: Probably not. I'm more worried about properly reproducing the data structures for the boost::shared_ptr's that I use. 20:26:53 Two years ago when I started I decided to use the boost library shared_ptr and weak_ptr (reference counted pointers that have maintain an external reference count) for memory management and just avoid memory cycles. 20:27:04 This has gotten me a long way. 20:27:44 I'm over-sharing details here. You know what, I need to think on this a little more. 20:28:55 But here's what I'm wrestling with - implementing QUOTE efficiently with LLVM modules and the boost::shared_ptr's that I use. 20:29:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:31:14 Currently I generate code that generates the quoted data-structures inline with the code - that is slow but not technically wrong. 20:31:47 A better option would be to generate the quoted data-structures once when the fasl file loads and use references to those structures in the code. 20:32:13 The best option would be to generate the quoted data-structures at compile-time and store them as data in the fasl file and refer to them - correct? 20:32:29 There is no better option than the last - correct? 20:35:25 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:51 I ask because when I do stuff I like to know what the best option is so that I can either shoot for that or evaluate the cost/benefit ratio to other options. 20:41:09 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:41:35 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:42:51 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:07 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:07 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:43 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 20:47:54 drmeister: assuming we are talking about compilation time, then that is 'fine'. But QUOTE is QUOTE! "CL> (eval (quote (eval (append (quote (1)) (quote 2))))) => (1 2)" ... there should not be a 'fasl' at all. 20:48:30 *drewc* is not really paying attention as just reading the scollback and replying ... sorry in advance, trying to avoid working tbh ;) 20:48:41 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:41 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:49:02 drmeister: you mean (quote (2))? 20:49:16 except that's wrong too. gosh. 20:49:59 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:50:31 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 20:50:35 WOOT! I have a printed CL spec 20:50:36 :D 20:50:37 http://www.zerospace.co.nz/CLSpecPrinted.jpg 20:50:37 ^_^ 20:51:38 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:03 Bike: heh ... do not know why I did not c/p from my REPL ... MAXCLAIMS> (eval (quote (eval (append (quote (list)) (quote (1)) (quote (2)))))) 20:52:15 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:26 probably the MAXCLAIMS made me think to re-type it ... ugh 20:54:06 *drewc* looks at his *slime-repl sbcl* and his C-k and glares at himself 20:54:27 drewc: I don't understand what the "(eval (quote (eval.." thing is for. 20:55:27 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:28 If I type that into my repl it will be evaluated by the interpreter - no problem. My problem is COMPILE-FILEing it and reading back the resulting fasl file. 20:56:08 Whoops, I've got to run to a seminar and will be offline for a few hours. 20:56:09 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:25 I'll be back with more questions I'm sure. 20:56:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:05 -!- bitonic [~user@5acdf831.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:57:13 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:52 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:00:11 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:45 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:51 -!- eichelbart is now known as eichel_gone 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C'est pas comme ça qu'on va attirer des nouveaux lispers! 22:07:48 (defparameter hi "Hello! Welcome to Common Lisp, the best programming language ever!") 22:08:30 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:33 pjb: watch your language 22:10:57 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:19 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:46 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:14:16 (say 'hi) 22:14:33 felideon: the french used was very polite 22:15:56 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 22:16:54 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog228.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:17:13 AeroNotix [~xeno@abog228.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:18:29 dim: je rigole :) 22:18:40 davazp [~user@79.97.164.103] has joined #lisp 22:19:10 en fait on pourrait presque parler en français ici on dirait quoique je suppose que je vais bientôt avoir un commentaire désobligeant en allemand :) 22:19:22 je ne parle pas francais 22:19:34 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 pjb: ah ouais, c'est vrai. Je m'excuse! 22:21:26 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 22:22:21 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.59.31] has joined #lisp 22:23:10 christophergonza [~user@206-15-64-222.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:11 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 22:25:52 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:06 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:28:51 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.224] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 22:30:21 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:31:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:31:23 chameco [~samuel@213.sub-70-215-8.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:46 -!- bitonic [~user@5acdf831.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:33:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 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