00:05:01 -!- quchen [~david@p54AA198B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:30 Oh boy - now I see what's going on. I'm shoe-horning the AMOP implementation of CLOS on top of the ECL common lisp source code. 00:08:16 In the AMOP implementation they redefine DEFUN so that it can handle function names of the form (SETF XXXX). 00:08:27 probably should kill that bit 00:08:34 They store the function definition in a symbol named "(SETF XXXX)". 00:08:42 hahaha 00:09:01 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-68-147.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:09:08 That's "implementation dependent" for you. 00:09:40 -!- agumonkey [~agu@96.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:10:21 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:12:39 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:15:30 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:16:34 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:59 bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:14 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ab6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:21:52 yrk [~user@c-76-119-230-161.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:59 -!- yrk [~user@c-76-119-230-161.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:22:00 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 00:23:58 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:26 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:24:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:03 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:25:14 drmeister: you can setf the function which corresponds to '(setf xxxx) isn't that what they're doing? 00:25:43 maybe it predates fdefinition working with setf functions, or something similarly terrible 00:25:50 drmeister: that is to say, the function-name is allowed to be either a symbol, or it may be (setf symbol) 00:26:23 Bike: i don't think it's one symbol in amop. i don't remember thinking "what the?!" 00:27:02 is this different from defsetf? 00:27:05 madnificent: Yes, but exactly where/how the function is bound to the name (setf XXX) is implementation dependent. I'm trying to figure out how ECL does it (I know for the global environment) and I realized that the AMOP code I was using did it a different way. 00:27:38 using the symbol named like that wouldn't be very good, anyway, what about somebody doing (defun |(setf xxx)| ...)! 00:27:39 drmeister: why do you need to know where and how? you have accessors for it in the spec... 00:27:46 Bike: indeed 00:28:01 Dalek_Baldwin1: there are various ways of defining setters 00:28:08 The AMOP implementation is called "newcl.l" and it redefines FDEFINITION, FBOUNDP, FMAKUNBOUND to handle their weird symbols. 00:29:10 Bike: Yes, (defun |(setf xxx)| would bork things up royally. 00:29:21 Bike: Using the AMOP approach. 00:29:31 drmeister: are you sure they don't just implement features that are now available in the standard? the MOP wasn't included, but CLOS is more-or-less based on it. so i'd check if it doen't work already. does closer-mop redefine those? 00:29:36 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 00:29:39 maybe it's like how PCL has functions like (sb-pcl::%method-function ...) or whatever 00:29:49 function names like* 00:29:50 madnificent: I'm writing the accessors 00:30:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:30:55 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:30:56 drmeister: in what way are you limited by fdefinition and function? 00:31:43 madnificent: I'm implementing a new CL interpreter and compiler. (Please no psychoanalysis). 00:31:52 (or is it symbol-function) 00:31:54 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:32:06 drmeister: Can you give me a page number so I can see what they're doing? 00:32:07 drmeister: ah, i thought you were trying to implement the MOP in ECL 00:32:55 drmeister: either case, basing yourself on the functions available in the standard is probably a smart thing, versus tying it to your own internal representation. but have your pick 00:32:56 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:33:44 Bike: Searching for it. 00:34:36 AMOP page 313. 00:35:06 BountyX [~andrew@c-50-131-222-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:29 See: setf-function-symbol 00:35:34 So I see. 00:35:39 None of this should be necessary any more. 00:36:25 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 00:36:25 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 00:36:25 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 00:36:30 And you don't need to define print-unreadable-object, of course. 00:36:34 Basically this is old. 00:36:44 Bike: Sadly, it is for me. My DEFUN doesn't currently support (DEFUN (setf xxxx)...) 00:36:54 Ohhhhh. 00:37:09 Well, that's wrong, and you shouldn't copy AMOP here :D 00:37:40 See, I'm using the ECL common lisp source code and I'm copying their lower level functionality that is written in "C". 00:37:53 Since you apparently actually have "slots" in symbols where you put the definition, why not just add another slot for a setf function to symbols? 00:37:58 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:38:08 Bike: No, now that I see what they are doing I won't use that. I need to figure out how ECL does it. 00:38:35 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:09 The thing is the ECL "C" code is difficult to search because it's not standard "C" - it's run through a preprocessor. 00:39:30 Any particular reason for the quote marks...? 00:39:32 Actually, scratch that - I know where the "C" code ends up in the build process . 00:40:00 No, you know what I mean. 00:40:10 C "C" Cee. 00:40:24 Now I'm curious what they could want that isn't in the standard preprocessor. 00:40:47 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-81-99.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:02 -!- BountyX [~andrew@c-50-131-222-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:41:03 pspace [~andrew@c-50-131-222-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:15 Bike: They embed a weird hybrid of lisp into their code. 00:41:20 xrash [~rash@201-95-194-129.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:43:08 Bike: It's difficult to write anything of consequence in pure C or C++. I always end up scraping it with other programs. It looks like they are dealing with the same problem. 00:43:41 clearly i've read too much of knuth's code :) 00:45:30 Here's an example of ECL C where they define the primitive function "fset". I've been looking for this for a while. http://pastebin.com/0TyUkeWM 00:45:35 sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.40.16] has joined #lisp 00:46:11 They put lispy-code between "@" characters and preprocess it into C. 00:48:03 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:44 Down lower in the si::fset function they check if the name is (SETF xxxx) and jump to ecl_setf_definition. There's my problem. I don't do anything analogous. 00:50:36 does ecl produce native code as sbcl does ? 00:50:48 produces C, doesn't it? 00:51:16 then c -> native code ? 00:51:30 presumably. i haven't used it myself. 00:52:18 Maybe it has a bytecode interpreter too, I seem to remember something like that. 00:52:18 lduros`` [~user@64-121-246-8.c3-0.rdl-ubr1.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:47 -!- lduros` [~user@64-121-246-8.c3-0.rdl-ubr1.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:33 Background: ECL fset is the primitive that defines functions and macros 00:54:07 anybody try got http://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/news/2013/01/stumpwm-can-be-built-with-ecl/ ? 00:54:10 ECL has both a bytecode compiler and a compiler that generates C code 00:54:30 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:12 i donot knwo whether or not ECL can produce native code stumpwm ? 00:55:20 I figured that ECL would be a good source of CL code because it runs on a C kernel. 00:55:48 sw2wolf: why would that matter? 00:56:02 but, it probably does. it's "embedded" for a reason, no? 00:56:03 performance 00:56:32 now i am using bytecode stumpwm produced by clisp 00:57:29 I'm using LLVM as the backend - that promises almost C level performance once I write a better compiler. 00:58:07 And I don't have to deal with the complexities of native code generation. 00:58:29 drmeister: i heard of freebsb will use clang+LLVM instead of GCC ? 00:58:49 sw2wolf: I did, it's a movement! 00:58:51 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:24 p_nathan [~user@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 00:59:26 LLVM is awesome. 01:00:05 genius created LLVM ! 01:00:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:21 BountyX [~andrew@c-50-131-222-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:30 -!- pspace [~andrew@c-50-131-222-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:54 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:10 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:47 -!- zmisc [ad627cec@pdpc/supporter/student/zmisc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11:11 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:11:32 howl` [~user@59.174.167.161] has joined #lisp 01:11:55 normanrichards [~normanric@71.22.108.187] has joined #lisp 01:12:20 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 01:14:17 -!- howl` is now known as heachcliff 01:14:24 -!- heachcliff is now known as hitchcliff 01:14:28 -!- hitchcliff is now known as heachcliff 01:14:44 whois heachcliff 01:14:55 whois howl 01:15:18 ww? 01:18:13 saltmiser [~saltmiser@72.79.172.84] has joined #lisp 01:18:49 does this channel include lisp development as well? 01:19:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:19:12 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 01:20:00 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:09 saltmiser: What do you mean by "lisp development"? 01:20:32 Mind you, I'm pretty new around here. 01:20:40 same 01:20:44 I guess I meant development with lisp 01:20:50 but that could mean development of lisp too 01:20:55 saltmiser: not sure what you mean either, but then again, I am not new here ;) 01:20:57 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:21:06 but I heard a rumor that lisp can't be developed anymore because it's perfect ;D 01:21:31 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:31 I have conrad barski's land of lisp 01:21:40 I"m going to try to rewrite my school's datastructures book with it 01:21:50 since it uses C++ 01:21:52 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 01:23:04 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:30 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:23:58 saltmiser: CL isn't perfect but its finished. You have control over the compiler in CL if you want and CL gives you the ability to add your own constructs to the language. 01:23:59 ok... well, you may have to learn a wee bit o' Lisp if you want to re-write a book on datastructures, so as you can see by the /topic, this is a good place to ask questions/get comments 01:24:17 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable107.197-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:24:25 IMO 01:24:59 as for the rumours, they are of course falsehoods, IMSNHO. 01:25:10 "so not humble"? 01:25:15 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:25:24 Bike: T 01:25:40 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:11 but messed up the typing, because I tend to do that these days 01:26:17 Unlike C++ which just added lambda last year (only ~50 years after lambda appeared in lisp). 01:26:59 drewc, indeed drewc 01:27:12 I've been toying with lisp for about a year now 01:27:21 I was using it as my login shell for a little bit a while back 01:27:31 -!- lduros`` [~user@64-121-246-8.c3-0.rdl-ubr1.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:41 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 01:27:44 actually make that a little over a year 01:28:01 that's brave. Bash/zsh pipes are to useful for me to do that. 01:28:18 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable107.197-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:30:12 I am on my 10th year of lisping, with 9 years as a pro, and would not use it as my Unix shell, so brave indeed! 01:30:29 I don't anymore 01:30:36 it just seemed novel at the time, I tried python and all that too 01:30:58 it was fun writing functions to do typical shell things 01:31:18 indeed, fun is a different tale! :) 01:32:06 I'm working on a project this semester to port ABCL to android, ABCL is a java implementation of common lisp 01:32:21 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:26 so there might be more noise here about that than my datastructures side project 01:34:24 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:34:46 drewc, what do you use lisp for? 01:34:49 in general 01:34:49 well, for the ABCL stuff, Erik is often on this chat, and the mailing lists of course are a good idea. 01:35:17 programming, development, that sort of thing :D 01:35:27 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:43 I've been thinking of some real weird frankenstein ways to use lisp recently 01:35:46 or: can you be a little bit more specific about what the answer should be? 01:36:18 I'm a senior CS major at my university here; I don't hate Java/C++/OOP but I like lisp and the functional style way better 01:36:36 but if you landed a job writing lisp code, that's extremely interesting 01:36:44 that's something I would like to do, I think 01:36:46 (or isn't it?) 01:36:50 CL has a pretty cool object system. 01:37:28 never looked into it, but I've heard of the CLOS 01:37:53 -!- kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:38:02 well, I have been self employed for 11 years now, so the only thing large I landed was a Fraser River Sturgeon .. giant though! 01:38:32 lmfao 01:38:42 and if you 'prefer' functional, well ... depending on what you mean by that, Common Lisp may not be what you want. 01:39:03 I understand that it's possible to write even JAva in the functional style, if you really wanted to 01:39:20 rather, I think I understand how that could be accomplished. I picked up a book on that, as well 01:39:29 maybe I'm just in love with the parenthesis 01:40:00 I spend all this time writing "reusable" code hte Java/OOP way, and I find that I never actually reuse the code, and the code isn't really that reusable because of Java's limitations 01:40:20 well, Java 1.0 is from '95 01:40:38 I guess I'm wondering if these functional, interpreted languages provide better opportunities for reusability 01:40:52 like I could season a library of code I've written over the years, to reuse peices as I need them 01:41:07 really abstract things like dealing with collections, and really specific things like downloading files from the internet 01:41:14 common lisp, otoh, started out as CLtL1 in 1984 01:41:26 what's interpretation got to do with it 01:41:56 Bike, exactly I don't think it does 01:41:56 and CL is not a 'functional interpreted' language at all 01:42:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:42:25 drewc, so when I'm in the lisp REPL that code is compiled, not interpreted? 01:42:33 implementation-dependent 01:42:39 but on say sbcl or ccl, yes 01:42:48 right 01:43:17 of course, "interpreter" is an odd concept anyway, what else is your x86 core doing 01:43:22 lol right 01:43:24 saltmiser: Mu 01:43:44 interpretation, compilation... 01:43:54 I suppose I"m thinking of AOT vs JIT 01:44:11 http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20130125201424560/9oftheBestFreeLispBooks-Part1.html <--- btw, saw that link on reddit... a lot of books to read on CL, and of course the hyperspec 01:44:51 aot and jit aren't mutually exclusive or even exhaustive, and neither of them are properties of languages anyway. 01:45:03 eh 01:45:09 i need electrolytic capacitors 01:45:17 saltmiser: CL is always compiled into something other than S-expressions. I have the only interpreted CL S-expression walker and it is slooooooowwww. 01:45:34 drmeister: "always", huh? 01:45:51 Bike: Isn't it? 01:45:59 which can take 400 volt 01:45:59 at least 01:46:01 which channel is this 01:46:02 oh wrong channel 01:46:02 sorry 01:46:02 doesn't have to be 01:46:31 well the AOT/JIT isn't really want I'm lost at 01:46:41 Maybe I just need a good book on design patterns or something 01:47:00 I've been in college for 4 years now, I feel like I know everything in the world about Java, except for good philosophy. 01:47:05 huh, is "design patterns" still a thing people care about? i thought that was like, 90s? 01:47:16 But I hate that all I learned from there was Java anyway 01:47:33 Bike, yeah, I'm not sure what or where it is that I'm looking for 01:47:47 maybe you should look into jvm implementations. they're extremely interesting and clever things 01:47:55 you'll be doing that if you want to retarget abcl, anyway 01:48:13 are there simple, reliable ones? 01:48:15 saltmiser: Fire up emacs with slime and Steel Bank common lisp. It's the most wonderful organic way to program in existence. 01:48:26 saltmiser: in 10 years you will laugh at the "learned all" thing :) 01:48:33 drewc, right xD 01:48:38 saltmiser: to read, or to use? 01:48:52 most of them are very reliable and simple enough for ignorant clients to use... 01:49:00 just to read 01:49:12 that i don't know. 01:49:26 a natural place for me to tackle would be the openjre/openjdk 01:50:20 my goal of porting ABCL over to dalvik would be to reintroduce the organic programming environment to people who have to write android code as their job 01:50:46 instead of using ECL, ABCL should be able to access the android API components, and making apps from ABCL shouldn't be a stretch 01:50:57 then eventually find a way to get emacs involved, of course :P 01:51:36 but if I can start writing app components from ABCL, maybe I can figure out if lisp is the solution to my reusability crisis I've been noticing 01:52:26 so, yeah 01:52:42 believe it or not, this is the most helpful channel on this discussion so far 01:52:47 saltmiser: We run Lisp on the server, but our android app is written in Java for android ... 01:53:27 I want lisp on android the way it's on my desktop 01:53:37 not as a user, but as a programmer 01:53:44 and has nothing to do with lisp not being available on android, and everything to do with bleedin edge development 01:53:44 saltmiser: have you checked out mocl? 01:53:57 thephoeron, no 01:54:04 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 01:54:22 saltmiser: http://wukix.com/mocl 01:54:34 looks like an interesting project 01:54:41 it does 01:55:03 but that toolkit, wukix, looks like it's very abstract so that code may be ran unmodified across different platforms 01:55:09 which is actually very cool 01:55:29 I want to be closer to android's cluttered api 01:55:34 ah 01:56:00 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:26 still interesting though 01:56:29 probably gonna sign up for announcements 01:56:51 once I have the time I'm going to request the dev preview 01:57:09 do you know if it will be something super expensive 01:57:34 I hope not 01:57:53 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-66-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:58:00 but it will probably have a license fee, by what the site says 01:58:10 at least for commercial use I imagine 01:58:14 lisp is just that cool it can get around the whole open-source fad eh? 01:58:14 xD 01:58:33 I feel like I'm the youngest person in this channel 02:00:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:00:17 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:41 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 02:08:05 -!- suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:40 suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has joined #lisp 02:16:56 javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:18:42 saltmiser, how old are you? 02:18:44 -!- javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:21:57 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23:50 javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:36 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 02:27:12 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has left #lisp 02:27:34 -!- javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:58 javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:32 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:29:36 gridaphobe [~user@cpe-66-91-253-127.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:05 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:32:22 clintm [~clintm@c-98-203-180-88.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:35 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:36:47 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:36:53 Fare, 21 02:36:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134952 -- I tried several incantations of (funcall but I think there's something fundamental that I'm missing here. 02:37:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:27 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:12 clintm: first: what exactly are you trying to do, syntax wise? 02:41:59 drewc: the method (sorry, in this case, it's 'method', right?) name comes in as a string. For a given instance 'week' a method name "week-notes", and a new value x, I need to set slot in 'week' to the value x. 02:42:19 err, the slot 02:42:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:44:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:26 ok ... so first ... METHOD is a thing that is defined .. GENERIC-FUNCTIONs have METHODs ... second: (setf (slot-value week (intern (string-upcase "week-notes"))) x) 02:45:02 slot-value, of course. 02:45:46 thank you, drewc! *dance* *dance* *dance* 02:46:33 third: you might want to read the intro to CLOS again, and learn a lot of Lisp before you try to change the design of the language using MACROs :) 02:47:51 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:48:11 drewc: Point taken. :) My elementary knowledge told me that liberal use of `, and macros would see me through. Two lessons learned! 02:48:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:48:45 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 Perhaps I should read through 'the art of mop' first and *then* finish 'let over lambda' 02:48:54 clintm: fourth: ignore macro's 'till you actually need them, and use them sparingly 02:49:00 no 02:49:04 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:49:41 you should not read that art of mop until you are aware what it is describing! and the MOP is a big deal, even to the authors of AMOP 02:50:05 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.39.123] has joined #lisp 02:50:40 PCL, Land of Lisp, and Touretzky intro are good starts 02:51:10 Ok, I'll go back through pcl again and this time concentrate harder. heh. 02:51:11 afterwards, PAIP is on my list of things to read ... 02:51:24 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:51:29 It's on my list as well... haven't opened it, but I have it. 02:51:42 thanks drewc... food beckons. 02:51:46 and then when you think you know everything, read them all over again, and again 02:51:51 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-203-180-88.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 02:55:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:28 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@71.22.108.187] has quit [] 02:55:44 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has joined #lisp 02:56:14 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:39 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:58:22 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:40 drewc: hi 02:59:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:00:04 Fare: hey hey ... did not have a chance to do what I wanted today for quick build ... still working on "stuff" for another system. 03:00:25 bloody weekends ... busy time for me 03:05:09 int3__ [~int3__@vlan409-165.subnet-248.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 03:05:36 how do I enable SLIME autocompletion in my emacs lisp buffer? 03:06:13 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:46 (hmm, I realize this may be more appropriate for #emacs...) 03:12:40 int3__: M-tab , or : http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Completion.html#Completion 03:12:52 sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 03:13:00 np 03:13:26 -!- impulse is now known as impulse- 03:13:29 I've wasted my day optimizing asdf to bring back performance to previous levels. 03:13:41 int3__: oh wait, emacs lisp? that does not make any sense to me .. SLIME and elisp ? 03:13:56 Fare: and good job from what I have read! 03:13:58 I feel like os.lisp is going to be merged with pathname.lisp 03:14:10 most of os.lisp is already crap to deal with pathnames, anyway 03:14:17 can understand why .. yeah exactly 03:14:21 OR, I may reverse the dependency from one to the other 03:14:45 so... dependency surgery 03:14:47 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:15:10 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.40.16] has left #lisp 03:15:29 just curious if there is a way to instruct SBCL's basic fixnum arithmetic operators to do C-like overflows when necessary, rather than create bignums? 03:15:49 -!- gridaphobe [~user@cpe-66-91-253-127.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:31 yes there is 03:18:35 clintm [~clintm@c-98-203-180-88.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:51 the clean way to do it is to use sbcl's modular arithmetic primitives. 03:21:11 (apropos "-mod64") 03:22:04 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:25:02 any abcl expert around? 03:25:04 hmm, in 32-bit sbcl (sb-vm::+-mod32 most-positive-fixnum most-positive-fixnum) gives me 1073741822 03:25:07 how do I detect windows vs unix? 03:25:24 and can pathnames under unix be non-unixy? 03:25:38 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-253-121.w92-163.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:26:39 -!- BountyX [~andrew@c-50-131-222-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:26:54 Note that C doesn't have arithmetic overflow. 03:27:05 It just has modular unsigned integers. 03:27:59 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:28:05 either way, the behavior I want is for it to wrap-around when adding 1 to the highest possible number that can fit in a fixnum 03:28:26 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:29:29 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: SLEEP NOW!] 03:32:06 ska` [~user@203.146.146.162] has joined #lisp 03:32:12 drewc: oh, I meant common lisp in my emacs buffer 03:38:00 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:38:14 sausages: You could probably wrap all of your operations with (mod ...) and hope that the compiler is sufficiently intelligent ... 03:38:41 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:39:58 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:11 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:42:29 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:47:26 -!- xrash [~rash@201-95-194-129.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #lisp 03:48:23 just tinkered with that, using the mod32+ function from md5.lisp that comes with sbcl 03:48:47 (mod32+ 0 -1) yields 4294967295. most-positive-fixnum is 536870911 03:49:00 I have a feeling there's an obvious detail I'm overlooking 03:49:44 sausages: mod32+ is declared to work on unsigned bytes, so not -1 03:49:50 but at least it does what I need it to. I just won't rely on most-positive-fixnum for now :) 03:50:36 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@c-68-50-168-116.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:52:32 Bike: maybe, but that still looks to be correct behavior. subtract 1 from 0 on an unsigned int should be that 03:54:27 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:49 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.166.87] has quit [Quit: ...] 03:56:56 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-203-180-88.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 04:00:45 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 04:01:24 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 04:03:43 -!- benny [~user@i577A860D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:10:10 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-552CD3F7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 04:10:10 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 04:10:42 luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:22 -!- heachcliff [~user@59.174.167.161] has left #lisp 04:11:55 has any got a windows machine around? 04:14:09 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:18:24 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 04:18:46 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.163.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:19:05 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.186.83] has joined #lisp 04:22:48 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:56 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:23 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:28 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:45 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:26:48 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:33:27 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:33:44 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-552CD3F7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 04:33:45 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 04:33:54 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 04:34:20 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:44 luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:25 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.173.158] has joined #lisp 04:37:10 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:38:24 Fare: erh. no, the clean way is to let SBCL insert modular variants by portably using logand/ldb/mod. 04:38:51 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-245-55.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:00 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:41:53 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:42:01 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 04:42:30 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:43:59 univyrse [~univyrse@71-82-19-203.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:11 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 04:46:16 im using sbcl and Im trying to make a function out of another function that returns a function 04:46:32 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:46:34 it's right out of ANSI Common Lisp but I'm having problems 04:46:36 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:48:14 univyrse: Could you explain a little more? 04:48:47 yeah, I have a function make-adder that returns a function to add x to an argument 04:50:02 Try this: go to pastebin.com and paste your code into the box and then submit and copy/paste the url back here. 04:53:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134956 04:53:44 (funcall add4 ...) 04:54:12 Bike's got it. 04:54:49 oh 04:54:54 i feel like an idiot 04:55:15 you could also (setf (fdefinition 'add4) (make-adder 4)) 04:55:19 oh 04:55:25 ok now that is what I was looking for 04:55:32 i knew there was some way to do it that way 04:55:40 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:56:45 do you guys think people would contribute to a more modern hyperspec that spanned various popular implementations? 04:57:03 i find the hypersepc unwieldy and irritating myself, I was wondering if I'm alone on that 04:57:18 What did you have trouble finding? 04:57:27 nothing, everything's there 04:57:41 but the format is rather antiquated, and there are a few accessibility features that would be appreciated 04:58:24 There are some legal issues, irrc. 04:58:27 It's huge and rich. I've been studying it for two years. I still miss all sorts of things. 04:58:57 what I'm really getting at is: I noticed lisp.wikia.com wasnt taken, I got it, and I'd like to make something useful out of it 04:59:02 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:59:11 Be careful before you try reprocessing the hyperspec. 04:59:15 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:59:20 univyrse: personally, I find the design of the hyperspec nostalgic 04:59:37 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.173.158] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 04:59:41 Last I looked, it was not legal to do so. 04:59:49 cliki is good too, but it doesnt really cover as much documentation as it does random projects made in lisp 05:00:06 Zhivago: yeah, the license is very restrictive 05:00:10 zhivago, I'm talking about a new hyperspec-ish thing, not copying the hyperspec onto wikia 05:00:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:00:18 sorry if I wasnt clear 05:00:40 Bike: I got the following to work: (defun (setf xx) (y) (+ 1 y)) ((setf xx) 10) --> 11 05:00:47 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0BC4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:00:53 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:01:10 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0EB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:01:12 drmeister: that's not supposed to work, unfortunately 05:01:24 uh oh, success denied 05:01:25 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:01:27 Huh? Which part? 05:01:54 The ((setf xx) 10) part? 05:01:57 Yeah. 05:02:06 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:02:21 Yeah, I kind of ran with the idea. (setf xx) is a function name so why can't it be the head of a form? 05:02:31 "If the car of the compound form is not a symbol, then that car must be a lambda expression, in which case the compound form is a lambda form." basically 05:02:56 univyrse: out of interest, what are your thoughts on sources? 05:03:13 Ok, like I said I ran with it. It only took me 2 min to add it to my evaluate function . I'll rip that puppy out. 05:03:14 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:03:45 that also doesn't really fit as a setf function, but i'm sure you know that. glad you got it working 05:04:10 And it's gone. 05:04:52 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:05:55 Now the challenge is to shoe horn (setf xxx) function names into LLVM. 05:05:58 thephoeron, sources for what? 05:06:26 for a new hyperspec 05:06:47 I'm talking about creating a new source. i 05:06:53 not citing from old ones 05:06:55 you can't base it off the existing one, because of the license 05:07:01 drmeister: since they won't appear literally in source like that (i.e. you use (funcall #'(setf xx) ...)), would my "add another slot in symbols for setf functions" idea be inadequate? 05:07:10 but, where would you compile the documentation from? 05:07:12 I can start from scratch and fill it all in with help from other contributors 05:07:21 implementation source code or manuals 05:07:45 yeah, tedious but doable 05:07:46 sbcl would have a namespace and function explanations, clisp would have one, ccl would have one etc 05:07:57 univyres: Good luck. :) 05:07:57 of course its tedious 05:07:58 Bike: It seems like a lot of memory to use (extra pointer for every symbol) and there aren't that many (setf xxx) functions. 05:08:05 think about how much work went into the hyperspec 05:08:17 i'd like to continue that legacy with this project 05:08:18 well, the implementation manuals usually just hoist off CL matters to the hyperspec in my experience 05:08:31 Not as much as you might imagine, since it had the spec's tex to work off, iirc. 05:08:42 yeah... of course I think the hyperspec was converted automatically from the TeX sources of the ANSI standard... 05:08:46 the spec is ANSI-copyrighted, right? 05:08:53 yeah 05:08:54 as long as I can prove that the data didn't come directly from hyperspec, that's all I'm worried about 05:09:01 You could probably pick up CLTL2 as a starting point, and then ansify it. 05:09:05 drmeister: I thought of that but I wasn't sure if it would actually be an issue for you. Plus the CL standard has plenty of setf functions, it might even it out. 05:09:25 Who holds the copyright on the hyperspec? Lispworks, right? 05:09:28 yes 05:09:38 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ekqbdifdrolpedro] has joined #lisp 05:09:38 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ekqbdifdrolpedro] has quit [Changing host] 05:09:38 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:10:03 I'm not sure if you really need to worry about legal action from them so much, I mean, they put the hyperspec up free anyway. 05:10:20 yeah I'm not worried about that 05:10:35 I'm just trying to get a feel for whether or not the lispers of today would use it 05:10:52 Bike: It was easy to just create another map of symbols->functions and define set_setfDefinition, get_setfDefinition and remove_setfDefinition functions to manipulate it. 05:10:54 Well, there are all the ANSI clarification pages on cliki. 05:11:12 cliki focuses on lisp products way more than it does the standard 05:11:16 drmeister: guess that works. So where's the LLVM problem? 05:11:27 univyrse: yes, but I mean there's a page on errors in the spec and so on. 05:11:33 and I'm thinking of branching out from the standard and trying to document each implementation separately 05:13:12 Bike: I'll find out soon. I have to boot-strap up to that point. When I used the AMOP "newcl.l" code it masked the problem by defining those weird symbols. Now I have the functionality of "newcl.l" in my C++ code - we'll see what happens in about 15 min. 05:13:38 It takes about 15 minutes to compile the CL source from scratch up to the CLOS code. 05:14:22 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:33 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:15:54 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 05:17:06 It will take longer than that sadly - it's recompiling all the C++ (sigh). 05:18:43 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-552CD3F7.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:18:45 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:49 luqui_ [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:10 univyrse: what are you planning on documenting exactly? 05:20:17 -!- adelgado1 [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:20:22 Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:20:44 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.18] has joined #lisp 05:22:00 Recompiling the source CL is always a rush. It starts out really slow (100% interpreted CL) and gets faster and faster as it replaces more and more interpreted code with compiled code. 05:23:57 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.18] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:52 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:27:19 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:28:53 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 Lia18 [~lia@212.78.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:33:20 -!- sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:19 [1]reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-134-93.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-0-126.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:37:42 -!- [1]reckler is now known as reckler 05:46:02 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:46:20 -!- spacebat [spacebat@50-56-189-236.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:21 sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.66.120] has joined #lisp 05:49:43 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.42] has joined #lisp 05:50:06 -!- int3__ [~int3__@vlan409-165.subnet-248.amherst.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:13 benny [~user@i577A16B3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:05 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:52 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 05:59:35 -!- luqui_ [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui_] 05:59:59 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.66.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:48 sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.66.120] has joined #lisp 06:01:23 -!- jokar [~mohsen@unaffiliated/jokar] has left #lisp 06:03:23 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:03:28 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05:53 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:09:24 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:12:02 let's say I wanted to include my DEFVARs at the top of the file, but in order to set the contents of a variable I need to call a function that is defined later in that same file. Is there any way to get function / class definitions hoisted up to the top as they would be in say, JavaScript? https://gist.github.com/4653386 06:13:46 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has left #lisp 06:13:50 I'm thinking about just getting used to seeing defvars at the very bottom of the page instead... 06:14:12 joekarma: Or just initialize them later. 06:14:35 joekarma: Are you compiling the file or loading it? I think this should work if you're compiling it. 06:14:41 black_13 [467c40e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.124.64.229] has joined #lisp 06:14:54 Bike: I tried compiling it in the latest build of SBCL--it failed 06:15:01 actually, don't initialize them unless you really need to either. 06:15:16 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:15:17 is there a lisp that exposes its internals or a lisp that is pedagogic in nature 06:15:25 I like binding my variables within my main function whenever possible. 06:15:55 sykopomp: I guess that makes sense, I wouldn't mind sticking those in an init function up top 06:15:57 black_13: Many lisps give full lisp-level access to their internals, if you feel adventurous. SBCL and CCL, for example, and they even include the source code. 06:16:02 Oh, compiling it works, but not loading the compiled file. 06:16:14 ccl? 06:16:21 Clozure Common Lisp. 06:16:22 black_13: you can even M-. right into the internals of SBCL/CCL, with slime. :) 06:16:46 i a curious about expressions 06:16:59 you're what? 06:17:03 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:17:08 sorry s-expression 06:17:15 what about them? 06:17:33 joekarma: defvar is like (declaim (special *foo*)) (unless (boundp '*foo*) (setf *foo* (get-foo))). Maybe you could just do the first up top, and set it later? 06:17:40 How can I check if a file is executable in sbcl(or in a portable manner)? 06:18:05 lets say i said "breasts" instead of s-expressions 06:18:14 nightfly_: the same way you check if a file is executable in any unix. 06:18:31 black_13: then you would be very much off topic, and the topic would very much not be welcome. 06:18:43 whoa 06:18:55 off topic indeed, but breasts are and always will be welcome to me 06:19:11 take it to #lispcafe, or /dev/null 06:19:13 univyrse: you see its such a fundamental topic 06:19:20 nightfly_: what do you mean? 06:19:24 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:19:28 sykopomp: join me in da cafe 06:19:52 i shant be ordered around, ye treacherous dog 06:20:07 please 06:20:19 however s expression are fundamental 06:20:19 is it summer already, or is it a snow day? 06:20:31 depends on where you or what planet 06:20:38 or what kind of snow 06:20:46 black_13: Gentle Intro has a pretty good introduction to sexps, I think. 06:20:46 that cynical attitude, you think that'll work for you, but it wont. 06:20:50 i gather it snows methane on titan 06:20:52 minion: please tell black_13 about gentle 06:20:52 black_13: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:20:55 it wont get you anywhere, kiddo 06:21:15 kiddo 06:21:17 ANSI Common Lisp is THE lisp book 06:21:25 also SICP is good, but not for CL really 06:21:38 it's not really CL in the way I'm used to seeing it coded. 06:21:43 Bike: check the permissions bits on a file 06:21:51 I prefer PCL as an actual CL-learning text. 06:21:54 minion: pcl 06:21:54 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:21:58 I hated pcl 06:22:02 absolutely hated it 06:22:03 thanks 06:22:03 minion: graham-crackers 06:22:03 graham-crackers: An critique of Paul Graham's coding style, specifically as found in his book "ANSI Common Lisp", available here: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 06:22:05 dunno why 06:22:16 ./ignore minion 06:22:20 er 06:22:32 can a tree be made into lisp list structure 06:22:49 black_13: read Gentle Intro and find out! 06:22:52 nightfly_: so, what sykopomp said. there's sb-posix and probably portability layers about 06:23:07 *joekarma* can't think of any reason to not love PCL 06:23:20 the book my be gentle but the present company isnt 06:23:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:30 what abut talking about an idea 06:23:34 i guess not heree 06:23:43 nightfly_: iolib has a lot of unixy/posixy utilities. Not sure if it does paths and filesystems permissions stuff, since I usually just use its networking bits. 06:23:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:21 PCL isnt a bad book, but its definitely not something I'd point a friend to if he had no lisp experience 06:24:26 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:24:47 I'd point anyone with actual programming experience at PCL 06:24:55 and anyone else at gentle -- and then to PCL. 06:24:59 WorkedForMe 06:25:07 well, that explains a lot about my seemingly unfounded disdain for you 06:25:31 isn't Ansi Common Lisp by pg 06:25:34 yes 06:26:03 I'm working my way through it 06:26:19 coming from 4 years of ruby and perl 06:26:59 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:28:40 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 06:29:21 that guy riesbeck, author of graham crackers is completely irrelevant 06:29:34 no wikipedia page, nothing on google about his achievements 06:29:37 only things he's written 06:29:46 ad hominem is dumb 06:29:51 some senile old professor who got his CS degree 40 years ago 06:31:03 oh shit he actually did get his degree 40 years ago, he finished his PhD in 1974 06:31:53 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 06:32:50 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:34:15 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 06:34:45 -!- black_13 [467c40e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.124.64.229] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:34:49 STSwm [~STSwm@14.98.106.180] has joined #lisp 06:35:40 univyrse: So what? 06:37:06 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:37:10 ok, pushed asdf 2.26.157 -- now it's fast again 06:37:25 or at least, performance is in the same ballpark as with 2.26 again. 06:37:30 pphew. 06:37:45 spent all day optimizing CL pathname crap. 06:40:40 -!- vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:41:24 vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:54 -!- STSwm [~STSwm@14.98.106.180] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:42:31 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:35 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:47:30 agumonkey [~agu@96.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:41 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 06:48:47 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:49:23 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:40 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:22 -!- agumonkey [~agu@96.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:54:02 the pathname compatibility library is 1100 lines long. Yikes. 06:54:06 keyword _values_ are constant, but their SYMBOL-FUNCTION can be changed... 06:54:18 -!- Lia18 [~lia@212.78.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 06:54:22 I thought (up to now) that whole _symbols_ get declared readonly. 06:54:40 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:55:00 how would a symbol be "readonly"? 06:55:00 it's 12% of ASDF. 06:55:11 package locks? 06:55:33 mapping in read-only pages? 06:55:50 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-202-211-wifi.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:57 flip214, you can also set their plist 06:56:10 or defclass them 06:57:20 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:00 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.120] has joined #lisp 06:58:10 yes, true. I just had to adjust my mental model. Seems I've mixed that up with package locks. 06:59:37 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:41 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:59:57 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 bugfix for my swank-setf inspector patch at http://paste.lisp.org/display/134957 (added an IGNORE-ERRORS) 07:00:34 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.66.120] has left #lisp 07:02:03 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 07:02:52 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-131-254.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-66-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:08:09 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:09:49 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.179.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:11:35 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:14:30 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:51 -!- suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:56 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-131-254.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:25 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:05 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:55 univyrse: despite what some people think, having a wikipedia page isn't the same as being relevant 07:20:56 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 07:22:26 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 07:22:47 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 07:23:13 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cdcsjhijtckdgaai] has joined #lisp 07:27:40 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:29:47 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:29:54 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.180.20] has joined #lisp 07:30:05 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.180.20] has left #lisp 07:30:54 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.180.20] has joined #lisp 07:31:34 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.180.20] has quit [Client Quit] 07:32:26 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 07:35:13 -!- dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:35:30 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:05 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:37:44 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:37:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:37:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:38:01 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 07:40:05 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:40:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:40:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 The real key is having a facebook page. 07:40:42 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c149f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:04 Zhivago: yeah, my father used to talk about how not being on FB means he doesn't exist 07:42:00 I wonder how long it will take for facebook to follow myspace. 07:43:43 about 5 years 07:44:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:18 isn't it toppling a bit already? 07:51:42 p_l: it has plateaued 07:51:46 (if that is even a word) 07:52:54 from my own guesses i'd say about 10 to 20 percent of all facebook accounts nowadays aren't affiliated with persons but organisations 07:52:58 or are marketing accounts 07:53:28 Zhivago: the key to being relevant? in what aspect? 07:53:49 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:55 capisce: Well, if you want to date an American woman, it is a prerequisite, I hear. 07:54:13 capisce: it's sarcasm, don't sweat it 07:54:18 Zhivago: another prerequisite might be to live in the US :p 07:54:35 although you could pay to have one of those fake brazilian girlfriends on facebook 07:54:43 Bike: no sweat 07:54:45 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:57 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 07:55:01 capisce: i don't think so - haven't you heard of the big fire yesterday? 07:55:50 snowylike: yes, in the unlicensed club? doubt all the brazilian girls offering fake girlfriend services were in that one 07:57:07 well 07:57:40 betting on the possibility that it was a company with a bunch of photos pre-made sounds like a sure bet 07:57:45 is this still #lisp? 07:57:57 H4ns: a slow day? 07:58:25 that reminds me 07:59:02 i recently found a book on algorithms working on text, like text search 07:59:08 knuth-morris-pratt and so on 07:59:13 in effort to bring this on-topic: can anyone guide me to good description/tutorial/examples/anything regarding writing non-consing code in CL, also an example of what I was once referred to as "object cache" (the CLOS, not java-ish variant) 08:00:02 and i remember that emacs uses something like fuzzy completion (if that is correct)? 08:01:14 the real question would be (assuming that this fuzzy completion really exists) - is there a good paper or something that i could read? 08:01:22 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 08:02:06 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:02:11 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 08:02:16 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 08:02:25 not sure 08:02:37 there's fuzzy completion in various Emacs modes, including slime 08:02:38 snowylike: the fuzzy completion is on the swank side. 08:02:42 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 08:02:44 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:03:01 so you can read the fuzzy-completion function for details on what it does 08:03:07 don't know any paper about it. 08:03:20 okay, thanks 08:03:47 veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:11 -!- veer is now known as Guest69351 08:05:34 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:05:47 -!- Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:08:19 p_l you aren't anybody to try and redefine a subjective aspect 08:08:23 calm down 08:09:22 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:41 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 08:11:09 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:11:39 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:13:56 zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-202-211-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:24 good morning lispers! 08:14:30 zorkmoid: 'morning 08:15:52 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:16:02 p_l: shouldn't that be :morning, because of commonality? 08:16:47 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-017-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 univyrse: then, please don't make wide statements like which book (other than the spec) is "the" common lisp book. Graham has a specific programming style that is distinctly different from majority of Common Lisp users, at least in the open-source circles. I respect his skills and work, but his style doesn't necessarily match with mine, and the disjoint can be unhelpful to newcomers 08:17:27 im not reading all that 08:17:44 ¬_¬ 08:17:52 p_l: i'm intrigued - i don't want to start a war or something, but how is pg's style different? 08:17:54 flip214: well, maybe 08:18:15 from what I skimmed, it's not relevant to my comment about the author of graham crackers, and your stupid response about what is and is not relevant 08:18:16 snowylike: he does not like clos, for starters. 08:18:18 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:18:31 relevancy is subjective, you and I don't get to tell people what's relevant 08:18:36 univyrse: please be nice ... p_l resonse is spot on. 08:18:36 univyrse: please do not call channel regulars stupid. thank you. 08:18:54 minion graham-crackers 08:18:56 ./ignore H4ns zorkmoid 08:18:58 minion: graham-crackers 08:18:58 graham-crackers: An critique of Paul Graham's coding style, specifically as found in his book "ANSI Common Lisp", available here: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 08:19:01 that, snowylike. 08:19:07 univyrse: if you want "THE" common lisp book, then that would be the ANSI standard. 08:19:16 anyways 08:19:30 Note that it's just an explanation of how pg's style differs from what's often considered idiomatic, and not some kind of polemic. 08:19:32 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:33 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:19:49 H4ns, Bike: thanks 08:19:49 the problem is that p_l associates his style with the "correct" style 08:20:01 univyrse: "common" != "correct" 08:20:05 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-131-254.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:12 univyrse: i have not seen such a statement from p_l. 08:20:17 One needs to learn to walk first before running etc. 08:20:20 and my response goes something like: if p_l's style was superior, he'd be writing better code than pg 08:20:30 univyrse: so please calm down, this isn't anything weird or strange :-) 08:20:42 univyrse: please don't put words in my mouth 08:21:13 but his style doesn't necessarily match with mine, and the disjoint can be unhelpful to newcomers 08:21:24 his style is different 08:21:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:24 univyrse: PG's coding style is not idiomatic common lisp, or lisp style. 08:21:24 -!- lpolzer [~riskyblit@91-66-76-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:21:29 and therefore unhelpful to newcomers 08:21:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:54 univyrse: newcomers benefit from common style to make reading other people's code easier as well as sharing their own 08:22:09 yeah, you got caught in a lie 08:22:11 When they learn to run, they can go nuts (ever looked into hu.dwim.* packages?) 08:22:13 and you're backpedaling 08:22:22 univyrse, stop. 08:22:44 stop being in the right? 08:22:45 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-202-211-wifi.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:54 should I blather about offtopic bullshit instead? 08:23:05 univyrse: you're constantly off topic. go away. 08:23:06 while we're on the topic of books: what is the consensus on Practical Common Lisp? 08:23:14 univyrse: you remind me of the guys that want to hang my family for political reasons back home. They use similar argumetns 08:23:17 *arguments 08:23:25 please calm down 08:23:33 snowylike: it's what i see recommended to everybody here. i thought it was pretty great. 08:23:42 snowylike: it is generally recommended for people who have previous programming experience 08:23:43 you remind me of someone who can't respond with anything relevant 08:24:02 your loser family is not part of this debate, you only bring it up because you're in a corner 08:24:07 most likely 08:24:12 snowylike: even if it is getting older, it is one of the more modern books on common lisp 08:24:24 can someone please kick this idiot out of the channel now? 08:24:30 snowylike: recommended for people who already program in "mainstream" language, also rather modern. Used to great success at ITA 08:24:32 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:48 i can just hop back in, it's freenode, takes 30 secs to release my ip and get a new one 08:24:53 hurr durr 08:25:15 Bike, H4ns, p_l: thanks - o 08:25:20 Who here has ops anyway? 08:25:29 only one user is opped right now 08:25:38 I mean through chanserv, obviously. 08:25:46 should be like a dozen or so 08:25:50 I know I've seen quite a few 08:25:54 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-147-156.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:26:05 ... stupid enter key - i'm somewhat experienced, but mostly in functional languages. i don't suppose that's going to be a big difficulty? 08:26:05 im not in irssi right now, i couldnt say for sure 08:26:22 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 08:26:32 snowylike: you should be fine. 08:26:45 okay 08:26:47 freenode has some sort of weird command to see ops, i think 08:26:57 snowylike: afaik an argument "against" PCL is that it doesn't talk about Quicklisp. 08:27:08 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 08:27:18 It doesn't cover ASDF either, does it? 08:27:27 daimrod: Quicklisp is the lisp equivalent of apt-get, right? 08:27:30 daimrod, snowylike:well, yeah, just skip the "setting up" part 08:27:39 quicklisp wouldnt be in a book anyways, its not official 08:27:58 no implementation comes with QL 08:28:16 Yeah, it's a book on CL, not all those nonstandard unimportant things like doing things. 08:28:37 i can barely comprehend you sometimes 08:28:45 like right now, for example 08:28:52 univyrse: "Practical" means also including unofficial but pragmatic stuff 08:29:11 just like Real World Haskell didn't try to keep to Haskell 98 08:29:18 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 08:29:38 p_l don't take this personally, but after hearing a few things from you in chat, I'd rather write BASIC for the rest of my life than risk consideration of your advice 08:29:58 Stop, okay? 08:30:23 Bike: sorry 08:30:25 stop responding to people who highlight me? 08:30:37 when he stopped responding to me, i stopped 08:30:41 08:31:06 er highlighting me, I mean 08:32:40 H4ns: is there a thread-pooling acceptor for hunchentoot? 08:32:40 (just in case - I have ignored univyrse in order to not catch myself fanning the flame. If you think he deserves kick, voice it, I'm not making the decision for personal involvement reasons) 08:32:59 lol 08:33:08 i vote for banning univyrse 08:33:16 4ever 08:33:51 Fare: no. creating threads is so fast that nobody thought implementing pools would be worth the effort. 08:34:29 OK. I'll do it. 08:35:14 Fare: why? 08:35:16 I think it's worth the effort because some library somewhere seems to be leaking data by thread created 08:35:30 Fare: would it not be better to fix that library instead? 08:35:48 we're not sure which 08:35:53 or whether 08:36:26 implementing thread pooling will give us both a diagnosis and a workaround until we identify the culprit 08:36:37 Fare: ok 08:36:39 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:36:39 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:36:39 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:36:40 (just in case - I have ignored univyrse because a drunk man such as he possesses more skillful rhetoric and logical evaluation than I do. If you think he deserves kick, voice it, I am going to go cry myself to sleep and pray to Stallman) 08:37:00 *Fare* /ignore univyrse 08:37:54 Sorry I meant /me /ignore univyrse!*@* all 08:38:11 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.93.254] has joined #lisp 08:38:26 chirp 08:38:41 I'm not against a bit of trolling, but only when it has some positive purpose. 08:38:52 I'm positively drunk, so I rather enjoy this 08:39:17 You say you enjoy trolling, but you place the things you care about to the side, as if they are "above" or "off limits" 08:39:33 you don't even know what trolling is, judging by your behavior 08:41:29 akovalenko [~user@95.73.53.180] has joined #lisp 08:41:32 of course, oracle libraries are a big suspect 08:42:08 ehu [~ehu@109.34.134.205] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has joined #lisp 08:43:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:43:40 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:48:12 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 08:49:39 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.93.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:50:01 im going to bed, lemme leave you with this: if PG coded like the average lisper did, he wouldnt be a multi millionaire lisper, he'd be some fucking loser in a shitty apartment. goodnight 08:50:10 -!- univyrse [~univyrse@71-82-19-203.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:50:54 lol 08:50:56 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:53:00 *drewc* just got here and scrolled back ... omg 08:54:06 ... he left? 08:54:31 Sounds ... average? 08:55:22 *p_l* notes to self, get more coffee when encountering trolls 08:55:51 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:56:02 *drewc* mubles something about drunken slurs not being lisp, and moves on 08:56:22 snearch [~snearch@f053010069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:31 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:56:31 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:56:31 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:56:32 for something on topic: examples of non-consing code? I do have an idea, but I need examples to better grok it 08:56:39 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.34] has joined #lisp 08:57:09 (+ 1 2) 08:57:20 techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has joined #lisp 08:57:21 -!- techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:57:38 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.218] has joined #lisp 08:57:47 techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has joined #lisp 08:57:48 -!- techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:58:04 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:07 stassats`: something bigger, that is. 08:58:20 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:58:28 (defstruct kons kar kdr) 08:58:34 preallocate your data structures 08:58:36 techlife [~jimmy@27.213.62.29] has joined #lisp 08:58:37 -!- techlife [~jimmy@27.213.62.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:59:16 p_l: i don't really get what you want 08:59:21 also, at least few places mentioned doing object caching and preallocation with CLOS, and I wondered if someone had real-life examples 08:59:25 techlife [~jimmy@27.213.62.29] has joined #lisp 09:00:01 stassats`: probably a result of me stumbling a bit in the dark. I'm looking into minimalization of allocation (and thus GC time) techniques 09:00:06 p_l: look at http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/resour.xml 09:00:07 apropos preallocation, there was a nice trick on unithreaded systems with (load-time-value (make-awfully-lot-array)) -- had anyone thought about making a thread-safe equivalent? (load-time-value-per-thread or something) 09:00:27 p_l: well, it's easy, just allocate new structures 09:00:32 just not allocate 09:01:04 *zorkmoid* wouldn't be suprised if p_l wrote better code than pg... :-) 09:01:07 stassats`: well, that's the point - I was looking for example code doing something serious that would reuse resources 09:01:58 zorkmoid: nah. I need more experience (ad infitum) 09:02:16 what do you want to learn from such an exampl? 09:02:30 (let ((jist (make-kons :kar 1 :kdr (make-kons :kar 2 :kdr nil)))) (setf (kons-car jist) 2)) :) 09:02:53 drewc: heh 09:03:52 stassats`: make my, for lack of better word, "understanding" of such code in CL better, so I can do certain experiments of mine better 09:04:16 stassats`: and examples are good, because without reading other people's code I'd never see things like LOAD-TIME-VALUE 09:04:23 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:04:39 oh! (setf (gethash ... ) 2) .... ok must be bed time for I do not understand the question 09:04:40 you would hear about LOAD-TIME-VALUE on #lisp 09:04:53 quchen [~david@wthp166d.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:58 drewc: neither do i 09:05:10 p_l: do you want scientific code? someone sent me a possibly relevant link 09:05:46 stassats`: well, I'm trying to provoke #lisp into similar feats? ;) 09:05:59 faheem: can do, I think 09:06:04 snowylike: PCL is a good book. It is meant as a sort of tutorial / hands on guide, but you can also using it as a reference. 09:06:17 stassats`: it only says things about the quality of my question, I guess 09:06:23 and it is also available online of course, so you don't have to buy it 09:06:25 i don't see what's there to understand about non-consing code: don't use consing operations, reuse structures you already allocated 09:06:32 faheem: thank you 09:06:40 *can also use it*, sorry 09:06:50 mm... 09:07:42 was it gabriel who wrote an article about non-consing in lisp? 09:08:21 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-202-211-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:36 p_l: see https://github.com/takagi/mini-lang/ 09:09:42 faheem: thank you 09:09:50 it does vector preallocation, like stassats` was talking about 09:10:41 code not written by me. written by Masayuki Takagi. we got into a discussion from a SO question, motivated by efficiency issues 09:10:51 ah 09:11:00 anyway, thank you all for answers 09:11:01 brb 09:11:17 p_l: Masayuki specifically mentioned mini-lang/example/nbody.lisp 09:11:23 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.91.218] has joined #lisp 09:12:14 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:18 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:40c:3d6f:9ce3:8b37:a1fc] has joined #lisp 09:12:54 p_l: you could also take a look at https://launchpad.net/cl-hlflow 09:13:14 bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 consing is basically CLs terms for on the fly allocation/deallocation, yes? 09:13:35 not sure whether is refers only to the deallocation part 09:13:47 the allocation part, i mean 09:14:18 Hello #lisp! I'm writing a Scheme interpreter, and everything (implemented so far) seems to work quite well. However, as I have not been a Lisper before I started this project, I don't have a code base to test the interpreter on. One of the canonical examples for cool and nontrivial Lisp seems to be the Lisp interpreter written in Lisp. However, I can't find a full (R5RS) Scheme interpreter implemented in itself - the best hits were ending in 09:14:35 faheem: it kinda refers to using lots of cells that acuse excessive garbage collection. 09:15:02 p_l: here is the SO question - http://stackoverflow.com/q/8356494/350713 09:15:13 quchen: try #scheme 09:15:14 p_l: seems relevant to what you are talking about 09:15:37 quchen: Do you have first class continuations? 09:15:40 quchen: you might want to go in to #scheme (and view the /topic of IRC rooms :)) 09:15:42 zorkmoid: does CL only allocate by using cells? 09:15:50 teleType [~cong@183.217.182.102] has joined #lisp 09:15:53 cells being the things that make up lists? 09:16:04 CL allocates however it feels like. 09:16:10 drewc: Oh right, "Common" is a name and doesn't mean "Lisps that are common". Pardon 09:16:13 faheem: cells being cells, whatever your imoplementation does :-) 09:16:26 zorkmoid: ok 09:16:33 -!- easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Quit: Restarting emacs] 09:16:45 Zhivago: ok 09:16:54 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 09:16:58 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:17:02 quchen: "Today, the most widely known general-purpose Lisp dialects are Common Lisp and Scheme." 09:17:09 faheem: a classic example is if you know the length of a something, it is simpler to just preallocate the whole thing before, and populat each item there instead of making lots and lots of small allocations. 09:17:25 zorkmoid: right 09:17:45 that seems the standard approach across languages 09:17:58 also, using block arrays is generally faster 09:18:22 The problem with that is that it degrades composability, which is the main point of GC. 09:18:22 zorkmoid: populate meaning assign, right? 09:18:25 faheem: nod, it is not as relevant today, since computers are fast, but back in the day if you did alot of consing, you'd kick the gc ... not fun 09:18:29 So, as usual, it's a tradeoff. 09:18:31 faheem: yes 09:19:03 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 09:19:44 zorkmoid: not sure what you mean with composability, but at least SBCL's gc is not happy with rapid creation and destruction of large arrays 09:20:14 faheem: i didn't say anything about composability :-) 09:20:59 faheem: The main advantage of GC is that you can give random things random stuff and they can do whatever they like with it. 09:21:09 zorkmoid: sorry, that should have been Zhivago 09:21:18 faheem: Without GC you need to coordinate lifetime policies. 09:21:33 Zhivago: true 09:21:43 faheem: but allocating/deallocating arraysback and forth really quickly is basically the same thing as consing 09:21:58 zorkmoid: yeah, good point 09:22:15 p_l: i hope you find the links helpful 09:22:24 faheem: in my experience SBCL has no problems with rapid creation and destruction 09:22:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:43 p_l: if you want to discuss, i don't really know much about CL, but you can contact me at faheem at faheem dot info 09:22:46 nostoi [~nostoi@53.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:59 jdz: well, i filed a bug report about it 09:23:00 adding large bignums conses a lot too 09:23:46 p_l: i'm interesting in efficiency issues, because i want to use CL for scientific computation, simulation and so forth 09:23:49 and you can't do anything about it, other then reducing the number of arithmetic operations 09:23:55 p_l: interested, sorry 09:25:07 stassats`: or increase the limit of fixnums 09:25:17 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:37 are you serious? 09:25:46 faheem: CL shouldn't have any problems with hard scientific stuff.. 09:26:35 faheem: if you need an extra cycle, you can always drop out to C, fortran, or whatever .. 09:26:39 zorkmoid: i hope not. i haven't really given it a serious workout yet. i'm just a beginner 09:26:51 zorkmoid: C, fortran, ugh 09:27:17 nothing wrong with either 09:27:24 zorkmoid: i've been using a combination of C++ and Python in the last few years. Nightmare city 09:27:41 zorkmoid: not fond of C. don't really know fortran. but tastes vary 09:27:47 faheem: might be because you are using c++ and python =) 09:28:04 zorkmoid: heh 09:28:29 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:34 i just drop out of lisp when i really really really have to ... which is never. 09:28:49 zorkmoid: as far as i can tell, practically nobody uses CL for scientific computation, not sure why 09:29:01 zorkmoid: but i've never been the conformist type, so... 09:29:18 faheem: i use it for bioinformatics currently .. 09:29:20 zorkmoid: well, sbcl is pretty fast. ccl is quite fast too 09:29:42 zorkmoid: interesting. got any links? github account, etc? 09:29:52 got a client who wants to do strange processing of huge amounts of data.. 09:29:55 faheem: nope. 09:30:03 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-jvyzvbldwooayypj] has joined #lisp 09:30:06 zorkmoid: are you in research or industry? 09:30:15 most lisps are fast, clisp is fast at somethings as well, mostly number crunching 09:30:25 faheem: industry, freelancing lisp hacker. 09:30:40 zorkmoid: ah. proprietary code? 09:30:52 faheem: nope, just not released code 09:31:16 zorkmoid: so CL copes ok with huge amounts of data? 09:31:27 what about memory issues? 09:31:30 faheem: yep... 09:31:42 faheem: i'm dealing with 10gb of heap presently 09:31:43 do you stick it in a relational db? 09:32:02 faheem: i got memory issues all the time ... 09:32:02 H4ns: ok. and how large is the data? 09:32:06 faheem: i read the data from postgres, deal with it, then write stuff back 09:32:10 faheem: but because i manage 1TB sets of data ... 09:32:22 faheem: something like 2-3 gb 09:32:24 H4ns: sounds sensible 09:32:35 zorkmoid: that's large 09:32:47 H4ns: that's not too bad 09:32:48 :-) 09:32:50 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:40c:3d6f:9ce3:8b37:a1fc] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:33:05 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 09:34:37 faheem: i'd be having memory problems with whatever i use.. 09:35:20 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-jvyzvbldwooayypj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:35:43 zorkmoid: yes, it sounds like it 09:36:26 -!- teleType [~cong@183.217.182.102] has left #lisp 09:36:32 and since i can restart calculations if they barf for various reasons, it gives a nice round trip time ... and since i'm flying solo i can manage to do more feature stuff for my profs and phds to do their grunt work. 09:36:35 evertone wins. 09:37:23 zorkmoid: you work for research labs in industry? 09:37:35 faheem: contract work, but yeah. 09:38:03 zorkmoid: how do you find it? interesting? stressful? well paid? 09:38:20 faheem: it is fun, well paid .. this time around not really ... 09:38:40 pays the bills ... 09:38:47 zorkmoid: that's good 09:38:53 perk is to work remote ... 09:39:26 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bhrjlzygclkpwzbw] has joined #lisp 09:39:35 zorkmoid: true 09:40:06 zorkmoid: re clisp fast at numbercrunching. How so? 09:40:47 teleType [~cong@183.217.182.102] has joined #lisp 09:40:47 fast bignums i guess 09:41:11 zorkmoid: i'm kind of surprised industry research labs are open to using CL 09:41:28 prxq: i've found clisp better at number crunching than sbcl ... i guess it is because it uses gmp and stuff under neath 09:41:54 faheem: they are open to "we need this, can you provide?" ... they don't care about the language, nobody really does. 09:42:24 zorkmoid: so you do lots of bignum stuff? 09:42:39 prxq: yes 09:43:03 zorkmoid: how much faster is clisp in this? 09:43:09 than sbcl, I mean 09:43:26 prxq: i'll give you a lawyers response; "depends" 09:43:54 i see 09:44:10 zorkmoid: i've seen numbers of 60% faster ... i've seen 30% slower.. 09:44:32 if it is because of my code, or the system ... 09:44:49 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:44:52 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:45:44 -!- hkBst__ is now known as hkBst 09:47:14 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 09:47:42 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 09:51:40 regarding my efficiency questions - I was looking into *managing* pause times, so reducing creation as well as running without-gc was needed 09:51:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:51:56 the goal was to use CL in games and control software 09:52:08 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vufzojsxzemizwnv] has joined #lisp 09:52:21 faheem: thanks for the links 09:52:31 p_l: you're welcome 09:52:45 zorkmoid: i see. regarding the language choice 09:53:13 zorkmoid: interesting about clisp. i always thought sbcl was the speed king 09:53:31 faheem: at some things it is 09:54:24 zorkmoid: if you don't mind me asking, how did you come to get into this business. if it is too long to summrize, or too personal, then please ignore 09:54:44 zorkmoid: bioinformatics? knew someone who knew someone who knew me 09:55:02 faheem: you can think of the (in)famous speedcorrectnesscost triangle as being big simplification and having similar structures at the nodes :) 09:55:09 zorkmoid: before that, stock trading and other boring stuff.. also doing lisp stuff. 09:55:17 is it so stressing that you know talk to yourself? 09:55:18 zorkmoid: bioinfo industrial research labs i mean 09:55:24 s/know/now/ 09:55:33 faheem: self marketting 09:55:36 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.53.180] has quit [Quit: Emacs upgrade] 09:55:57 zorkmoid: and i knew someone in the business to give me a leg in .. 09:56:06 zorkmoid: ok 09:56:27 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 09:56:33 -!- p_l has set mode -b *!*@186.215.70.74 09:56:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 09:57:02 *p_l* did just a bit of maintenance 09:57:35 i keep talking to my self.. 09:57:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has joined #lisp 09:57:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has quit [Changing host] 09:57:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:58:15 it's nice to talk to someone smart for a change, isn't it? 09:58:38 faheem: Industry: "we need something done ... really quickly, bunch of attempts failed before ..." Friend of a friend: I know this one guy ... Me: Ok, gimme a few weeks. Happy happy ;-) 09:58:50 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 09:59:17 So, say I've got a list of structures, how should I get the one with a specific :name field? Is there an assoc-style function for this? 09:59:21 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:59:28 zorkmoid: i see. contacts are important, of course 09:59:40 fds: FIND 09:59:42 fds: find-if 09:59:49 no -if 09:59:54 H4ns: thanks for the lisp machine manual link - the copy I had was in PDF and not necessarily nicest to read 09:59:55 with :key ? 09:59:58 zorkmoid: i gather CL is good for getting things done quickly, so that probably helps 10:00:09 akovalenko [~user@95.73.53.180] has joined #lisp 10:00:10 Thanks, I'll read up on it. 10:00:10 (or in formats I had no readers for) 10:00:16 fds: (find "name" sequence-of-structures :key #'structure-name :test #'equal) 10:00:30 H4ns: what do you use for interfacing with postgres? postmodern? something else? 10:00:36 faheem: exactly, you can do the work of 10-15 people yourself. 10:00:50 zorkmoid: sounds like a good gig 10:00:51 faheem: postmodern 10:01:08 H4ns: thanks. is that the best thing? 10:01:21 faheem: for some value of "best", yes 10:01:26 H4ns: ok 10:01:29 faheem: i like s-sql very much 10:01:53 faheem: well, even hu.dwim.perec, which looks to me to be most awesome ORM i ever used, uses postmodern deep in internals, so... 10:02:42 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:25 stassats`: Brilliant, thanks! 10:04:06 am I the only one who can never browse the documentation on hu.dwim? 10:04:49 daimrod: no (mostly because it's rational not to browse it) 10:04:56 daimrod: no 10:04:57 H4ns: what is s-sql? 10:05:14 p_l: don't know hu.dwim.perec. will check 10:05:16 daimrod: with hu.dwim it's reading code, backwards, in snow 10:05:29 hehe 10:05:31 and that's with SLIME's help 10:05:35 what is hu.dwim? sounds .. fun :-) 10:05:43 i've used sqlalchemy till now. which is pretty good 10:05:56 p_l: yeah, I've stopped fearing browsing code with SLIME. 10:05:58 zorkmoid: a namespace, ala java package naming conventions 10:06:07 s/with/thanks to/ 10:06:14 ah, right ... discussed that last week with someone.. 10:06:16 yes, dwarven fun. It's good, but it's definitely non-idiomatic and uses quite a lot of complex features 10:06:22 i hate that naming convention. 10:06:31 zorkmoid: conduits help with it 10:06:32 -!- teleType [~cong@183.217.182.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:06:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:48 zorkmoid: I hate package name conflicts even more... :) 10:06:49 faheem: s-sql is SQL with s-expression. 10:06:54 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:06:58 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75774f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:02 daimrod: ah 10:07:39 faheem: (sql (:select 'foo :from 'bar)) 10:07:40 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.39.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:57 always wanted to learn clisp or sbcl internals properly. 10:08:31 faheem: though not all features of SQL/PostgreSQL are supported, it's _really_ nice to be able to compose SQL queries like macros. 10:08:33 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:15 it would be a nice feat to integrate sql into hu.dwim.quasi-quote. unfortunately the idea that quasi quotation is not at all limited to lists came after we dealt with rdbms interfacing... :/ 10:09:24 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.152.84] has joined #lisp 10:10:00 or cmucl ... or something. 10:10:05 daimrod: sounds good. this is in postmodern? 10:10:13 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:10:17 faheem: yes 10:10:27 p_l: thanks 10:10:51 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:10:51 faheem: the documentation of postmodern is nice. ;) 10:10:59 (mapcar #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems (car (ql-dist:all-dists)))) ; Would this qualify for a lisp/slime tip? 10:11:39 slime, surely not 10:13:01 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:10 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 10:13:52 yeah, not sure why I added "slime" in question 10:14:19 daimrod: i've heard good things about postmodern 10:15:53 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:16:00 faheem: I find SLIME + postmodern way better than phpmyadmin. It's dead simple to experiment with queries from SLIME's repl. 10:16:18 but i wonder, is postmodern better than modern mode? 10:16:31 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:16:41 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vufzojsxzemizwnv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:16:48 daimrod: i must give it a try 10:19:53 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:17 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:26 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:29:34 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.34.134.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:29:45 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:4c4b:9fa4:ba33:754a] has joined #lisp 10:33:43 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@53.Red-79-154-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: 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seconds] 10:55:55 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f717ec6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:18 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:03:12 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:03:42 mm.. 11:05:17 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:4c4b:9fa4:ba33:754a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:58 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:58 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:07:17 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 11:08:06 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:08:27 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:09:10 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:32 hkBst 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11:31:53 what is a "nice" and "easy" compiler? 11:32:19 one that has no rude error messages? 11:32:27 one that fixes bugs for you? 11:32:28 one that a 6 year old can understand 11:32:47 cl is not suitable for 6 year olds 11:32:49 been trying to unnest sbcl ... but mmm... can't understand it entierly. 11:33:17 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.16.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:34:19 mrdtt_ [~mrdtt@171.245.158.141] has joined #lisp 11:34:22 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 11:34:28 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:15 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.152.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:15 -!- mrdtt_ is now known as mrdtt 11:37:21 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Client Quit] 11:37:40 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 11:40:18 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.208.109] has joined #lisp 11:42:09 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit 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[~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 13:11:03 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:35 -!- teleType [~cong@223.84.230.117] has left #lisp 13:11:50 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:12:12 ngz [~user@77.235.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:26 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:36 minion: memo for black_13: have a look at sacla and sicl both try to implement CL in CL, in a readable way. 13:12:36 Remembered. I'll tell black_13 when he/she/it next speaks. 13:13:34 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:49 rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has joined #lisp 13:15:43 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:09 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:17 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:16:23 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 13:16:33 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19:09 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:10 zorkmoid: clisp compiler is probably the nicest, easiest to read and understand CL compiler in current use. 13:21:24 zorkmoid: the reason for that, is because it targets a Lisp VM. 13:22:02 All the other compilers target native processors optimized for C code, so they are necessarily more complex. 13:22:28 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:29 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:35 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:33 bitonic [~user@dyn1220-136.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:27:49 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 13:30:02 ltlJohn [~grigoriad@87-212-64.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #lisp 13:31:17 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:09 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 13:32:15 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 13:32:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:33:19 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:50 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:35:43 ogamita: mm... nod. 13:36:13 that's not a logical conclusion 13:36:14 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:36:24 -!- ltlJohn [~grigoriad@87-212-64.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has left #lisp 13:36:37 the VM can be as complex and the compiler can be as complex 13:37:26 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 13:37:27 stassats`: do you know of a easy to understand cl compiler then? 13:38:41 stassats`: yes it is. when (lambda (x) (car x)) compiles to (load 1) (car) (skip&ret 2), it's simplier than when it compiles to twenty lines of x86 assembler code, even sexpified. 13:39:52 would be inte4resting in finding old releases of clisp 13:40:40 or ... just pull out the zeta lisp compiler, that one is nice. 13:42:24 ogamita: that's not an inherent advantage of VMs 13:42:36 *hydan-zzZZzz* wonders is gavino became agent smith 13:42:46 -!- hydan-zzZZzz is now known as hydan 13:43:25 ogamita: even easier to understand would be when (lambda (x) (car x)) compiles to (lambda (x) (car x)) 13:44:13 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:16 eech ... half of clisp is like written in german and english with german grammar 13:44:36 andf weird indentation 13:44:57 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:45:38 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has quit [Changing host] 13:45:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:46:47 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:54:17 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.73] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 13:57:01 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:57:30 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f717ec6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:57:32 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:c573:b7b4:ac95:ab37] has joined #lisp 14:00:08 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.218] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 dous_ [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 -!- dous_ [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 14:03:53 dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 14:04:43 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:05:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@96.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:18 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:07:04 agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:11 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 14:09:34 zorkmoid: I don't think that a compiler intended for actual use can be simple, mainly because it has to exploit structure and special cases to ensure bearable performance. 14:10:03 mmm.. experience tells me otherwise 14:11:10 zorkmoid: experience with what compilers? 14:12:02 H4ns: fortran, C, scheme... the usual. 14:12:13 all compilers i've seen are over engineered really.. 14:12:29 zorkmoid: that is what prxq seems to have said. 14:12:49 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:56 is getting good performance over-engineering now? 14:12:56 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:e2a0:d80f:39f1:9cee:78cf] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:12:58 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:c573:b7b4:ac95:ab37] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 14:13:03 if you want simple, get an interpreter 14:13:11 zorkmoid: just with the little twist that what you call "overengineered" is what compiler writers probably spend most of their time with, getting more performance to the user. 14:13:34 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:52 stassats`: if making the code 100 times worse just for 2% performance improvment in some obscure situation, then yes, it is over engineering. 14:14:04 H4ns: having been a compiler engineer, i disagree :-) 14:14:29 zorkmoid: not having been one, i'm not trying to make you agree. 14:14:39 stassats`: you didn't identify the key word. It wasn't "VM" it was "Lisp"! 14:15:11 zorkmoid: no, you're using an old sources. Comments have been translated to English several versions ago. 14:15:18 dunno, i think that compilers could be alot simpler, easier to understand and hack than they are .. 14:15:21 zorkmoid: less talk, more code, please 14:15:50 Let's ask Niklaus Wirth to write us a lisp compiler! 14:16:15 stassats`: would be nice if you could be nicer; you probobly are a very nice person in real life but here your eally come across like a unkind person. 14:16:19 ogamita: haha :-) 14:16:22 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:14 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:53 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 14:20:45 zorkmoid: this is no high-school, i'm not going to sugar-coat things, so stop telling me to be nice 14:20:56 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.91.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:21:05 stassats`: well, i won't, please be nice, it makes for a happier world. 14:22:17 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:23:14 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:24:23 world will be happier when people will stop sugar-coating crap 14:25:16 you can convey the same thing while still being nice and not use rude language, or being harsh. 14:25:47 zorkmoid: can you stop trying to educate people here, please? 14:25:59 H4ns: sorry? 14:26:11 zorkmoid: do not try to educate people here. thank you. 14:26:19 H4ns: and please be kinder to your peers. 14:26:38 no reason for this hostility .. 14:26:44 zorkmoid: you started it. 14:27:05 niceness is off-topic in #lisp in any case 14:27:50 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has joined #lisp 14:27:55 H4ns: i don't see where i was hostile, if i offended you somehow, i apologise, but you and stassats` both come across as unkind. 14:28:27 zorkmoid: your hostility was in demanding that people come across the way you like it. 14:28:35 do you label hostile anything you disagree with? 14:29:06 -!- dous_ is now known as dous 14:29:12 H4ns: i don't see where i demanded anything, i don't know if you are native english but "please" is just a kind request, not a demand. 14:29:42 zorkmoid: You're not very good at being nice. :) 14:29:43 please stop being a jerk. 14:29:45 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:29:54 (i said please, it's a kind request) 14:30:35 i tried the please thing, too. it seems to fail its magic on zorkmoid. 14:30:53 Euthy: maybe, i try, as everyone i have faults. 14:31:15 but people here are immensly hostile and get up in arms over the most silly things. 14:31:24 zorkmoid: please stop 14:31:32 with what? 14:31:36 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:31:52 minion: chant 14:31:52 MORE CODE 14:32:00 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:24 zorkmoid: When you say "as everyone I have faults" it sounds like you're making up excuses to keep acting like a jerk, which is what you then proceed to do. 14:32:39 Euthy: you too 14:32:44 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:33:02 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:27 fe[nl]ix: Certainly. 14:34:02 not a very adult way of managing conflicts, calling people jerks, just asking people to be quiet instead of resolving an issue ... is there any other lisp channel that exists that is more friendly? 14:34:29 zorkmoid: you can start one 14:34:52 zorkmoid: there's #lispcafe 14:35:09 fe[nl]ix: thank you 14:35:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:09 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 14:37:56 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 14:38:39 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:56 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:c573:b7b4:ac95:ab37] has joined #lisp 14:40:36 ogamita: thanks, i mistakenly snatch a old version .. looking at the latest release now. 14:41:52 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:53 dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:37 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:c573:b7b4:ac95:ab37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:06 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:c573:b7b4:ac95:ab37] has joined #lisp 14:47:20 urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-113-96.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 Gee. There really IS a #lispcafe. What would I do there, besides not write code? 14:49:05 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:49:18 Some days I'm very good at not writing code, but I try to avoid that. 14:49:20 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-009-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:53 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:34 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 billstclair: have conversations like this one. 14:52:44 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:51 Kvaks [~kvaks@45.163.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 -!- Kvaks_ [~kvaks@80.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:53:43 alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:55:36 hi sykopomp 14:55:41 good morning 14:55:49 mornin', dto 14:55:52 Hey folks, is anyone familiar with how different CL implementations represent lexical bindings internally? I store them as arrays of objects (ActivationFrames) but that precludes me from interrogating them when I drop into the debugger on an error. I'm thinking that I need to annotate them somehow with the symbols and (SETF XXX) names that they are bound and I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that. 14:57:38 hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:57:38 drmeister: there's an article in cll explaining how Allegro CL does it IIRC. 14:57:51 This is for compiled Common Lisp code. Interpreted code is easy. 14:58:01 ogamita: What is "cll"? 14:58:16 news:comp.lang.lisp 14:58:32 ogamita: I'll look it up. 14:58:39 Also accessible from http://groups.google.com 14:58:46 drmeister: bring a flamethrower 14:59:09 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:c573:b7b4:ac95:ab37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:13 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 14:59:33 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:13 skykopomp: Why? What's the problem? 15:00:18 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:00:35 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:39 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 15:01:35 ogamita: Do you have any other keywords I could search for? "comp.lang.lisp allegro activation frames" is not producing for me. 15:01:46 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 15:01:59 drmeister: cll is a legendary troll/flamer paradise. 15:02:03 drmeister: "duane rettig" 15:02:14 sfa [~root@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 15:02:14 Part of the problem is that I don't share the same history/terminology as everyone here. So I don't know what you guys call things. 15:02:30 fe[nl]ix: Oh, I know Duane, he's a real helpful guy. 15:02:39 drmeister: sure. that's a normal part of being new 15:02:50 drmeister: you do ? how ? 15:03:52 fe[nl]ix: I met Jans Aasman at the Hackers Convention last fall. He put me in touch with Duane. I learned a lot. 15:04:03 skip_it [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:04:59 :) 15:05:18 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:05:22 -!- skip_it [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:39 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:39 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 15:06:05 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:19 ogamita: Are you referring to the "Lisp in C" stuff that Duane wrote? I'll have to read it again - I don't recall anything about how activation frames are implemented in Allegro - I'll have to read it again. 15:08:06 I don't even know if other CL implementations use activation frames. It's just something I picked up from "Lisp In Small Pieces" and ran with. 15:08:11 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:19 stassats`: there's a newer version of my swank-SETF-inspect patch, at http://paste.lisp.org/display/134957. 15:09:35 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:09:49 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-144-210.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:00 hiyosi [~skip_it@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 it's only for setf functions, what about other setf-expansions? 15:10:05 Duane sent me some presentations and the source code for Allegro Environments but it didn't look like what I was looking for. 15:10:39 minion: help 15:10:39 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 15:11:20 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:30 I don't really know about them (yet)... what other expansions are there? writer methods should work, too 15:11:52 clhs define-setf-expander 15:11:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm 15:11:54 clhs defsetf 15:11:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 15:12:54 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:56 minion: memo for ogamita: Thanks for your help. Re - activation frames and Allegro CL -Are you referring to the "Lisp in C" stuff that Duane wrote? I'll have to read it again - I don't recall anything about how activation frames are implemented in Allegro. 15:12:56 Remembered. I'll tell ogamita when he/she/it next speaks. 15:13:17 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:23 Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:44 oh, these. If they expand into a SETF-internal hash table, I wouldn't know how to (portably) ask ... and if they don't, the SETF query should catch them, no? 15:14:04 hiyosi_ [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 is cl-http still maintained? got a bugz in it.. 15:14:36 anyway, it's a (small) step ahead ... of course it can get expanded. 15:14:38 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|phone 15:16:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:16:55 flip214: it's not necessary to be portable 15:17:16 zorkmoid: don't know about cl-http. I use Hunchentoot 15:18:07 zorkmoid: what do you use for serialization, if anything. i'm thinking of moving to yaml, but CL doesn't seem to have a working implementation. though a wrapper around the c library might not be hard 15:18:26 faheem: serialization of what? 15:18:42 it looks like the json one is functional though 15:18:49 billstclair: mm... never used hunchentoot.. been usingcl-http since lik uhm ... long time :-) 15:18:52 zorkmoid: data serialization 15:18:53 billstclair: 95? 15:19:15 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-162-165-225.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:19:18 zorkmoid: xml, json, yaml etc 15:19:36 faheem: but serializing sexp data, clos objects? 15:19:40 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-166-19-243.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 faheem: well. .. doesn't really matter, i got some of my own hacks... 15:20:21 zorkmoid: ok 15:21:12 drmeister: searching for lexical environment should get you closer. 15:21:12 ogamita, memo from drmeister: Thanks for your help. Re - activation frames and Allegro CL -Are you referring to the "Lisp in C" stuff that Duane wrote? I'll have to read it again - I don't recall anything about how activation frames are implemented in Allegro. 15:21:19 faheem: bunch of code based on statice from genera ... 15:21:30 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 15:22:02 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-144-210.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:12 zorkmoid: no idea what statice or genera is 15:22:36 faheem: genera is the os that ran on the symbolics lisp machiens, statice is a presistant database which was initially written for genera. 15:22:41 drmeister: well, if you already have the sources for Allegro environments, I can't offer more. 15:23:02 zorkmoid: ah, that rings a bell 15:23:18 faheem: it is similar to cl-prevalence ... 15:23:25 zorkmoid: the advantage of those formats is that they are portable across languages 15:23:32 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 15:23:33 s-serializisation i think is a part of cl-prevalence 15:23:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75774f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 or they are language agnostic, to put it differently 15:23:51 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-166-19-243.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:52 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 15:23:55 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 15:24:03 well, the current version should be portable ... of course, we could look at *valid-fun-names-alist* in SBCL, etc. 15:24:39 flip214: current version of what? 15:24:46 flip214: you can look at what CL:DESCRIBE 15:25:02 faheem: not what you were talking about 15:25:08 flip214: at what it does, that is 15:25:12 stassats`: sorry 15:25:40 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:25 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:26:42 -!- hiyosi_ is now known as hiyosi 15:27:16 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.84.53] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 15:33:30 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:05 In CL are lexical environments and activation frames the same thing? I implement them separately. Lexical environments store variable names and the variable indices into activation frames and declare info. Activation frames are just arrays of objects. 15:34:33 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:34:56 The reason I ask is because whenever I ask about how activation frames are implemented in CL I get pointed to how Lexical environments are implemented. 15:35:40 It makes me suspect that I'm making things more complicated than they need to be. 15:36:30 snearch [~snearch@f053010069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has quit [Changing host] 15:38:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:38:51 drmeister: you'll have multiple activation frames per lexical environment, right? llooks good to me. 15:39:46 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:39:49 davazp [~user@79.97.164.103] has joined #lisp 15:40:12 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Quit: hasboot] 15:40:57 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 15:40:57 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 15:40:57 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 15:41:47 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-184-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:01 flip214: It depends on the definition of lexical environment. Lets say you have (let ((x 1)) (let ((y 2)) AAA)). I represent what AAA runs in as a linked list of two lexical environments which when compiled turns into a linked list of two activation frames one that stores the value of "y" and the outer one that stores the value of "x". 15:42:47 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.73] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:31 well, optimization of frame merging might still apply, of course. but first get it right, or so they say ... 15:44:01 So when the compiled code AAA accesses "x" it looks up (lexical value 1 0). Where the "1" means crawl one activation frame up and get the value at index "0". 15:44:19 Frame merging optimization - interesting - what is that? 15:44:29 Besides what it sounds like. 15:44:48 Merging multiple activation frames into one. 15:45:21 well, if you get multiple LETs, your "compiler" might merge them into a single one. Eg. macro expansion is likely to return such structures. 15:45:43 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:45:52 but I'm not a compiler expert. 15:46:18 mm.. 15:46:49 That is an interesting idea - I'll think on that. I get a HUGE speed improvement moving from environments to activation frames. 15:46:50 *flip214* thinks obvious joke PANACEA (Person ain't a compiler expert anyway ;) 15:47:26 flip214: I'm not a compiler expert either. I'm just writing one. 15:47:33 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 15:47:47 In CL it kind of writes itself. 15:48:32 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:48:52 drmeister: are you writing a cl compiler or just a lisp cmopiler? 15:49:04 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:49:13 zorkmoid: A CL compiler - please no psychoanalysis (I get a lot of that). 15:49:39 drmeister: i was mostly going to say; cool, got the source somewhere? :-) 15:49:51 *madnificent* only sees drmeister mention that he doesn't want psychoanalysis, not the analysing itself. 15:50:13 zorkmoid: Not yet. 15:50:24 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 drmeister: ah, pitty... would like to help.. 15:50:37 sounds fun .. 15:50:52 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:09 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:51:15 I kinda want to get CLOS and exception handling working before I let it out. It's a stubbornness thing. 15:51:33 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:33 drmeister: pitty :( 15:51:47 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.242] has joined #lisp 15:52:00 I appreciate your interest though - thanks. 15:52:47 drmeister: keep up the hacking! i've been playing around with the idea of writting a article series called "implementing cl one function at a time" a few times -- show how utterly boring cl actually is :-) 15:52:54 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 15:52:56 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:53:11 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:23 zorkmoid: FYI its a C++ core that implements a CL interpreter. I took the ECL CL source code and I'm loading that into the interpreter. The interpreter is glacially slow but I can get enough CL up to implement a compiler that uses LLVM as the back end. I'm finishing the compiler now. 15:53:46 drmeister: nifty 15:54:01 It interfaces CL to C++ and back very smoothly (IMO). 15:54:36 that's one way to finally get a C++ FFI 15:54:54 asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-elmhusilpfuhpycc] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 The CL interpreter is a code walker. 15:55:27 dlowe: That is exactly why I'm writing it. I think I know now how to get a C++ FFI for other CL implementations but that's for later. 15:56:00 drmeister: the problem with that is always "which C++"? 15:56:23 dlowe: I've compiled it with G++, CLANG and VISUAL C++. 15:56:43 -!- davazp [~user@79.97.164.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:06 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1220-136.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:14 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 15:57:41 bitonic [~user@dyn1220-136.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:57:54 It uses C++ template programming to do the CL/C++ interfacing. Later I'll use CLANG to parse C++ and create interfaces automagically. If I knew two years ago what I know now I would have started with CLANG rather than roll my own freakin' compiler. 15:58:19 Oh well, I only know now what I do because I wrote the freakin' compiler. 15:58:44 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59:23 :-) 16:05:54 sighs ... i gotta write a tex macro expander 16:08:01 drmeister: i was thinking of rather starting with sbcl's code, and a bytecode compiler -> threaded code -> optimized code 16:09:21 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.138.120.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:27 -!- reb [user@nat/google/x-jpaevvpvfsvicpdu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:23 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0EB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:35 p_1|phone: Do you mean for a C++ FFI? Most of the problems are on the C++ side. I figured I'd use ECL because it has a CL code base that runs on a C core and bootstraps itself from a C compiler. sbcl requires another CL to bootstrap it doesn't it? I'm not very familiar with sbcl's code. 16:13:22 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:07 I figured that since most CL is written in CL that it wouldn't require much work to implement a new core in C++ (ah those days of innocence). 16:14:24 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 16:14:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 16:14:24 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:18:43 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.186.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:20 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19:48 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 16:19:58 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 16:21:18 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:22:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:22:25 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:24 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 16:25:07 brown` [user@nat/google/x-gfnkntofdozvoopc] has joined #lisp 16:25:36 drmeister: ecl can also be compiled with a C++ compiler. 16:26:42 -!- quchen [~david@wthp166d.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:29 ogamita: Sure, but it doesn't have the goods to interface C++ code with the CL code and back again. I don't know how to describe the lack. But it's missing what boost::python provides for interfacing C++ to python. I don't know if you are familiar with it. It's loads of C++ template programming for creating wrapper functions and automatically converting argument and return types from C++ types to python types. I've implement 16:28:29 ed this between C++ and my CL. 16:28:36 ogamita: but i don't think drmeister is doing this because he really wants to take the easy route on getting a lisp on C++. it's like going on a trip, you don't take the most efficient route from home to home, you take the route for the route itself. 16:29:37 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:30:10 and it that sense, if you have the time, i think it can be quite some fun 16:30:29 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:48 Joreji [~thomas@83-129.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:12 madnificent: Yes, part of this is the "Road to Ithica" (C.P. Cavafy). With the difference being - I so desperately want to reach my Ithica. 16:32:17 pv` [~user@206.red-80-28-69.adsl.dynamic.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:28 drmeister: well, my goal was a bit different, my try at interacting with c++ as well 16:32:39 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.84.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:32:58 I need to get compiled generic functions working. I have about 10,000 lines of archaic lisp code that builds molecules that I need to port to it and get it running on a supercomputer. 16:33:12 drmeister: if you don't want to build your own implementation, or love the travel, i'm fairly certain you're better off implementing it on top of one of the lisps that exist already. purely because there are a lot of things you want to do in terms of speed, and they likely have done some of them already. but it's just my 2 cents and i like your travel regardless. 16:33:23 let's say i gave up after dreaming of assembly dump of c++ code 16:33:50 leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDBB7C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:22 getting ill finished the act of dropping that project 16:34:31 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:34:53 (c++ interop, that is. been thinking of playing with cl impl. again) 16:35:18 madnificent: In retrospect I agree. However, I've almost got CLOS working - I can't stop now. Also, my backend is LLVM which gives me all sorts of cool capabilities that existing CL implementations don't have - and it generates native code. 16:35:22 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:06 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:25 *madnificent* knows nothing about it, but has heard the love for LLVM on #lisp in the past. must be a good thing then. 16:36:31 I'll be able to interface CL with GPU programming in ways that will blow peoples minds. 16:36:58 *prxq* looks forward to that 16:37:07 -!- alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: alkul] 16:37:25 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:43 *p_l|phone* remains hopedull sceptic 16:37:46 afk 16:38:22 CL is a framework for converting high level descriptions of problems into machine code. It's like living in a compiler where you have complete control over everything. 16:38:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:38:42 mmm... 16:39:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:09 anyone got a good text processing library? like functions in emacs for moving across sexps programatically ... 16:39:20 zorkmoid: paredit ? 16:39:38 madnificent: i mean in cl .. 16:40:01 i could write it .. but meh this is getting annoying :-) 16:40:14 I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I've been programming for 34 years for several hours every day. I only discovered LISP about 2 years ago. I've learned more in the past two years about programming than the 34 years before that. 16:40:26 i'll go for no, and be done with it. 16:41:04 Alright, I'm monologging now. Time to get other things done. Thanks for your help everyone. 16:41:10 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 good luck 16:41:18 madnificent: nod... thought so :/ 16:44:36 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 16:45:26 davazp [~user@79.97.164.103] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.113.157.226] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 16:48:00 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 16:48:59 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:49:32 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 16:49:32 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@235.122.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:11 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dkncqlguzwzvdrsq] has joined #lisp 16:54:58 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.242] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:55:20 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 16:55:45 arrk13 [~arrakis24@dslb-188-109-195-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:39 hello, sometimes in defsystem and defpackage, the arguments are given in the #:foo notation. what is the difference between :foo and #:foo. what does the sharp sign do? 16:57:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:35 arrk13: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 16:59:01 arrk13: PCL talks about it here http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 16:59:18 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1220-136.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:26 thanks. 16:59:33 arrk13: usually to avoid cluttering the package with symbols, which usually have a hard time being collected 16:59:39 arrk13: it doesn't intern the symbol in a (the keyword) package. people do it so they don't pollute the keyword package. (i prefer the :foo syntax for now) 17:00:04 bitonic [~user@dyn1220-136.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:13 *drewc* usues #:foo because it works, interns 17:00:25 sorry uninterns! 17:00:29 you can also use strings, but that requires more work 17:00:55 *drewc* hits enter rather then C-a on that last one :| 17:01:00 and the strings would "SHOUT" 17:01:11 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:35 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-009-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:40 segv-_ [~mb@dslb-094-223-009-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:00 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:04 so, what sense would it make in a defpackage to export #:foo instewad of export foo? 17:02:05 oGMo: Yeah, I use either #: or "STRINGS", and myself, always #: ... other way have strings which i will of course use rather than change 17:02:24 arrk13: it would export the same thing 17:02:34 arrk13: well, #:foo vs :foo vs 'foo 17:02:48 arrk13: what package is 'foo' in? that is what matters .. how do symbols work, what are they? 17:02:55 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 17:04:13 arrk13: in practice, if you write (defpackage :bang (:export :foo)) you will end up with the symbol :foo that can be autocompleted (and it's in your lisp image). with (defpackage :bang (:export #:foo)) the symbol :foo will not be autocompleted and it will not be in your lisp image. 17:05:30 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:05:32 drewc: i think the question is still on the practical 'how do i use lisp' level, rather than 'zomg lisp is teh asum beauty!' level. though i hope arrk13 will go on and read the clhs links you gave about it. :) 17:05:39 madnificent: more important is that :foo is in the keywork package, and your autocompletion may not be the same as others at all ;) 17:06:32 -!- ogamita [~t@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:39 madnificent: ok, then why are you talking about beauty rather then pratical things involving symbols? 17:07:04 drewc: i tried to get as much to the practical level as possible. but yes, you are right. 17:07:08 \me is now very confused and will now stop chatting in #lisp for a while 17:07:13 *madnificent* doesn't get that last question 17:07:45 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:13 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:39 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 17:12:55 quchen [~david@p54AA3691.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:19 green_ [green@nat/redhat/x-tvkszjkeljmgfecf] has joined #lisp 17:17:32 pkhuong: thanks for the buffer limit suggestion the other day, turns out lparallel didn't have the feature and might have it in the next release, given that it works out really well in my use case :) 17:18:44 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:20:12 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:22 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:20:42 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 17:26:51 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:06 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 17:30:54 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:31:22 -!- Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:31:28 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:06 .seen WarWeasle 17:32:15 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-113-96.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:33:26 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:33:35 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:34:11 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@92.36.195.218] has joined #lisp 17:34:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 17:38:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39:48 -!- davazp [~user@79.97.164.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:40:29 pnpuff [~dyoxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:40:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:42:18 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:38 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-206-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 17:46:29 ebobby [~fms@187.179.34.14] has joined #lisp 17:47:41 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-47.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:18 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:37 rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has joined #lisp 17:52:50 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9635.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-129.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:54:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:54:21 werwerwer [~1@158.181.209.141] has joined #lisp 17:57:51 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-31-168.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:58:43 hello, I'm having trouble in using cffi grovel, can anybody help me please ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/134962 17:59:25 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 18:00:40 alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:12 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@92.36.195.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:27 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.168.75] has joined #lisp 18:05:52 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:50 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 kiuma: http://paste.lisp.org/+2W4Y/1 18:12:22 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 18:12:27 -!- werwerwer [~1@158.181.209.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:12:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9635.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:13:20 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.73] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 18:13:50 grovel.c:8:25: fatal error: eina_config.h: no such file or directory 18:14:14 ah i forgot cflags 18:14:24 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.73] has joined #lisp 18:14:57 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny68.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:15:28 Unknown Grovel syntax: CFFI-GROVEL::CFLAGS 18:15:51 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.179] has joined #lisp 18:16:23 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 18:17:00 -!- p_l|phone is now known as p_l 18:18:03 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 18:18:26 flags maybe 18:19:16 it's cc-flags 18:19:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:20:11 -!- arrk13 [~arrakis24@dslb-188-109-195-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:20:11 cc-flags, but: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134962#2 18:20:13 :) 18:20:58 remove the space after -I 18:21:35 fe[nl]ix nbr 1 :) 18:22:09 now my flu is calling me again. I feel a bit out of order :/ 18:22:42 not 1, number 6 18:23:24 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:09 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:41 -!- pnpuff [~dyoxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:29:40 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 18:30:02 anyway that cflag is very platform&installation dependent (I know I could use defcstruct in this case) 18:31:09 pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.213] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:31:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:31:28 I have a fix for that, I'll try to push it to cffi soon 18:31:57 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:09 oh, fine! 18:33:13 Joreji_ [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 -!- danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 18:41:23 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.179] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 18:43:53 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.179] has joined #lisp 18:44:03 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bhrjlzygclkpwzbw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 ck___ [~Owner@dslb-188-097-128-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:15 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9635.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has 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-!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:20 ApeShot: if it often bugs you, quickproject could help. 20:34:43 ApeShot: i most often copy-past a base definition and work my way from there. setting :serial t really helps for small projects 20:35:08 *madnificent* thought xach had a post about it, but can't find it 20:35:58 ApeShot: there's also the asdf manual, but i guess that'd be too much? 20:36:17 ApeShot: what about the manual? Otherwise, the sources. 20:36:43 madnificent: Can't use quicklisp 20:36:51 madnificent: not in my company's workflow 20:36:56 Gotta understand asdf 20:37:25 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:37:29 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 20:39:10 Here is my immediate problem, I need to write a system that depends on one of Franz's built in libraries, but these do not seem to be asdf systems themselves 20:39:16 so I cannot list them as dependencies 20:39:28 I should just ask the local old Lisper who understands all this stuff 20:40:13 ApeShot: you need to use cl:require to load the franz libraries before loading the asdf system 20:41:06 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:41:24 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:41:45 Now I just need to find where in the rats nest of our codebase we are supposed to do that. 20:41:54 H4ns: thanks! 20:42:41 forgottenwizard [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 20:43:07 -!- p8m [~asdf@67.210.179.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:43:07 p8m [~asdf@67.210.179.76] has joined #lisp 20:43:07 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:43:31 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45:31 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:13 GIOGIO [~GIOGIO@2-235-99-102.ip227.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 ciao 20:48:54 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-206-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:48:54 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:07 !lista 20:49:16 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:49:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:10 !lista topolino 20:51:13 !lista asterix 20:51:55 ApeShot, the source code 20:52:08 -!- forgottenwizard is now known as ZombieChicken 20:52:17 ApeShot, what do you want to understand? 20:52:31 the source code in 2.27 is *much* nicer than in 2.26 20:52:34 sono nuovo aiutatemi 20:53:18 ApeShot, you could have your .asd do the require, and/or the first file in your system. 20:54:09 or you could add a new system type for stuff to be required. 20:54:28 ApeShot: you can easily write an asd file for non-asd systems. 20:54:51 ApeShot: for example, your asd file could just load a single file that would contain a single (require 'allegro-specific-library) form. 20:55:05 -!- nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:55:33 -!- GIOGIO [~GIOGIO@2-235-99-102.ip227.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 20:59:12 -!- ck___ [~Owner@dslb-188-097-128-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:12 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 -!- alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: alkul] 21:03:38 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has joined #lisp 21:03:39 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:48 http://tinyurl.com/ajwux2e 21:10:15 macivory complete on sale 21:10:22 complete except for mac 21:13:55 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 21:15:06 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:25 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:59 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:17:28 A mac can be found. 21:17:39 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:22:12 -!- ebobby [~fms@187.179.34.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:24:59 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:32:10 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:21 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:55 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-245-55.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 21:39:38 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:55 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:15 is it one for MacII or for MacQuadra ? 21:45:54 sigh ... if only I had enough space where I live... I might now own a macivory. Instead, I will look at the pics and drool :) 21:46:14 I have another one 21:46:26 a MacIIfx doesn't take that much space. 21:46:36 if you want it, it's for sale 21:46:37 that picture fills me with acquisitional lust. 21:46:41 :) 21:47:07 it does when you live where I live ... even my ps3 is a bit large for my space :) 21:47:41 :) 21:47:46 how bigger is the new home? 21:48:06 well, you can run a Genera emulator on you Linux PC or Mac. 21:48:09 Fare, what model board do you have 21:48:41 the latest MacIvory, but not patched for Quadra, so will only work on MacIIfx max. 21:48:55 model 3? 21:48:57 yup 21:49:14 i want that & that is also expensive 21:49:18 drewc: you must be one of the lucky few that cheers loudly when sony releases a slim version :P 21:49:44 yes it is. Plus shipping. 21:50:00 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abos46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:50:20 quite a bit bigger! just bought it this morning actually, finally paid for it... A wee bit of cash, but it is mine! 21:50:21 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:50:22 http://harbouryachtsales.com/Pages/page361.html 21:51:05 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abos46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:09 madnificent: indeed I do, and I only play 1 game, beyond that is is my DVD/blueray player :) 21:51:13 congrats drewc 21:51:24 (on the boat) 21:51:36 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:37 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 21:52:05 pretty sweet sheer line for a fero boat. 21:52:08 congratulations 21:53:00 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abny68.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:53:23 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:53:41 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:54 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-131-254.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:37 drewc: seems to me there's always enough space on a boat: just add an extension or an annex ;-) 21:56:07 pjb: sailboat ... add such a thing if you want to die in a big space ;) 21:57:07 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.136.244] has joined #lisp 21:57:25 madnificent: thanks! I am an admiral again, for a short time :) soon I will be demoted to captain 21:58:28 AeroNotix [~xeno@abos46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:58:44 *Fade* laughs 21:59:28 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:23 and, fwiw since I am off topic anyway ... if any of youse live near here, buy my other boat! http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/boa/3563666402.html :D 22:00:26 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:34 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB7C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:06 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB7C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:10 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:23 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:03:39 Are there any CL implementations that extend APROPOS so that there is a way to get (apropos "and") to not give you every symbol whos name contains the string "and"? Perhaps something like (regexp-apropos "^and$")? 22:03:44 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 22:04:00 drmeister: cl-ppcre has regex-apropos 22:04:31 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:49 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84e771.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:50 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:06 beyond that , apropos is not specified to use regexes at all, simply because '|^and$| is a valid symbol, and regexes are not in the CL specification at all 22:12:09 -!- segv-_ [~mb@dslb-094-223-009-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:30 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-009-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:17:43 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 22:19:17 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-220-182.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 22:19:29 are there any formal regex standards? 22:20:27 grep is in posix, isn't it? 22:20:31 regular expressions are part of javascript, which is standardized by ecma 22:20:48 they are also in various xml standards 22:20:54 so yes, there are a few 22:21:05 so there isn't any separate, unified body saying "This Is The Regular Expression Standard"? 22:21:10 no. 22:21:34 dunno why there would be, they're in a weird spot between being really useful and being pretty easy to make yourself. 22:21:41 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.113.157.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21:47 regular expressions are a mathematical idea, they were standardized by God 22:22:00 now a specific syntax for them wasn't. 22:22:04 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 22:22:16 except that everyone knows God actually wrote the world in Perl. 22:22:16 dammit, god, you dropped the ball 22:22:37 *drewc* does not like regexps at all, and prefers ... but may be an oddball in that sense ;) 22:22:40 Fare, well, when I say "regular expressions" i actually mean something perhaps more general 22:23:05 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:07 Qworkescence: regular languages or what? 22:23:12 if common lisp was standardized today, it would include regular expressions. 22:23:16 :D 22:23:25 drewc: regular languages are a pretty useful restriction of grammars to parse, though, even if you don't like pcre's syntax 22:23:34 dous [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 22:23:34 -!- dous [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 22:23:34 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 22:23:49 we could always use snobol-style parsing! 22:23:50 Bike, Aren't perl's regexes able to simulate grammars more general than regular languages? 22:23:50 http://xkcd.com/224/ 22:23:55 H4ns: Thanks, that's what I'm looking for. 22:24:03 Qworkescence: yes they are 22:24:33 because they are not regexes at all? 22:24:34 Qworkescence: backreferences let them accept more than regular languages but less than cfgs 22:24:42 right 22:24:48 but rather ... yeah, backrefs :) 22:24:51 they also make it way harder to optimize 22:24:59 yes 22:25:08 i'm glad cl-ppcre just sticks with the fast automata approach. 22:25:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:57 H4ns, do you think regexes should be a part of the language? 22:26:06 i think being a library works well 22:27:03 *drewc* prefers parser combinators for parsing .... I suppose that is a wee bit to much compsci for a chat about perl regexps :) 22:27:06 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0152.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:36 drewc, yes, parser combinators are great, especially when your language properly supports types and inference >:( 22:27:51 Qworkescence: i think that they should be specified as part of the language, yes. 22:27:55 Qworkescence: http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-5 ;) 22:28:07 drewc, i have seen it as well as your patches to LIL 22:28:20 Qworkescence: i'm not saying that regular expressions are good to solve every problem, but they deserve a firm place in any programmer's toolset nowadays. 22:28:29 H4ns, right i understand 22:28:36 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:29:38 Ragel uses regex syntax for some awesome stuff 22:30:03 H4ns: I have to agree with you there 100%, and I do not like regexps at all. I also do not like flathead screwdrivers or Imperial sockets, but they are all in my toolset, as are regexps. 22:30:44 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:31:41 drewc: by Imperial sockets, do you mean UK power socket? 22:31:49 H4ns, how do you think the structure of a new CL standard would compare to how it is now? do you think it would make sense to do something that looks more schemey and have a "core language" part with library appendixes? I ask because for something like regexes, I have a hard time seeing what kind of integration one would want at the language level. 22:32:32 p_l: no, Imperial is a measurement system ... the other is 'Metric' 22:32:55 drewc: yes, I was just wondering about "socket" 22:33:14 p_l: google for "imperial socket" 22:33:28 ahhh, those 22:33:28 or socket set ... or sockets as tools etc 22:33:34 T 22:33:40 got some here, in both metric and imperial 22:33:42 p_l -- we're spitting distance from the united states. 22:33:42 Qworkescence: well, "new cl standard" is more or less just a fantasy. it would probably be modular, but i'm not sure if making anything optional would do anyone a real favor. 22:33:55 so we're inundated with stuff manufactured in the imperial system of measures. 22:34:02 our cars, forex. 22:34:04 :) 22:34:05 (as we need both to repair our cars) 22:34:20 Qworkescence: so the modularity would be more to structure the documentation, not so much what would be required in a conforming implementation. 22:34:28 H4ns, do not worry, a new CL will be a reality! 22:34:32 p_l: I have both as well ... I live on a sailboat that was launched in '72 ... so the tools have to be all sizes and all systems :) 22:34:55 one is german make (despite american brand), another is proper british car 22:34:57 Qworkescence: aha! i'm not holding my breath, but i'd certainly welcome it. 22:35:23 it just has the wheel on left side for some reason ;) 22:35:45 my my motorcycle is metric, but my old muscle car is imperial. 22:36:05 resulting in twice as many tools as I would otherwise want to store. 22:36:32 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:36:43 Fade: even worse is sailing, where our "miles" are longer than land "Miles", and we have a whole bunch of other things that are similar to that :) 22:38:04 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:30 true north vs magnetic north is another one .. 20 deg difference here ... it can be a big deal! Of course, being a Common Lisper, I am used to odd things done differently etc 22:44:28 somehow this conversation has me trolling youtube lusting after five axis mills. 22:47:14 francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242353936.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:47:20 -!- green_ [green@nat/redhat/x-tvkszjkeljmgfecf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:35 H4ns: it would be nice of modularity could let there be a default implementation for the vast majority of the standard library. 22:50:24 pkhuong: yes - like cl-ppcre became cl's regular expressions. but i kind of fear that most other modules will be much harder to find a agreeable default implementation for. 22:50:35 pkhuong: there already could be that; everything that's not a special form could be made portable 22:50:52 jasom: what's the default of cl:open? 22:51:29 Bike: okay I stand corrected 22:51:52 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 22:52:02 we are going to ban &optional types in the next standard, right? 22:52:17 special forms handle most of control flow and stuff but the system of course has a lot more than that. 22:52:19 (except maybe for macro lambda lists) 22:52:29 i suppose you could cut out numbers and use church encoding by default :) 22:52:39 jasom: I don't care much about potential goodness. Where's my default implementation? ;) 22:53:07 pkhuong: you would want the standard to include one? I suppose it does for a number of macros 22:54:39 Has anyone seen PROGV in real code? 22:54:40 jasom: include or be developed in parallel. Modularity itself has marginal benefits. 22:54:59 Qworkescence: I've written progvs. 22:55:05 Qworkescence: once in a blue moon, but yes 22:55:20 Qworkescence: it is pretty safe to assume that 100% of the ansi cl spec is used in "real code" 22:55:22 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:37 Maybe I should be stricter about the definition of "real code" 22:55:49 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:51 Qworkescence: furthermore, attempting to "deprecate" individual parts of the spec has not proven to be successful in the past. 22:56:19 H4ns, yeah no need for deprecation, just chuck them out and don't tell anyone 22:56:27 -!- posterdati300 [~KVIrc@host149-105-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:56:58 cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:03 Qworkescence: it may make sense to put the ancient stuff into a separate package that can be left out of new programs. like :cl would include all of the cruft, and :nucl would be just the sensible part of it or some such. 22:57:45 FUTURE-COMMON-LISP 22:58:05 only that future-common-lisp "is" "already" "in use" 22:58:16 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 22:59:08 let's kill car and cadr in the process, and switch to left and right (lllleft and rlrlright for composing) 22:59:12 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:59:18 *H4ns* ducks 22:59:45 *Qworkescence* holds on to rplac[ad] with a death grip. 22:59:46 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:16 I hate using accessors for data structures when you could be using pattern matching 23:00:22 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:00:27 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:00:29 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c149f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 ESPECIALLY because car/cdr and family are so bone headed about nil 23:00:41 ApeShot: I hate using pattern matching when you could be using CLOS. 23:00:48 there are a couple libraries for pattern matching. i think the fare-safe one is optima? 23:00:58 i hate [not really] compilers that can't do case analysis on matching 23:00:59 I am the author of one, Shadchen 23:01:08 H4ns: I think you mean LARBOARD and STARBOARD! LSLSLBOARD! :) 23:01:15 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:01:20 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84e771.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:01:22 ow! 23:01:42 Can someone explain why car nil isn't an error 23:01:48 clhs car 23:01:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 23:01:49 ApeShot: because it's convenient. 23:01:58 it seems like only crazy person would standardize that 23:02:09 nil is not a cons 23:02:13 ApeShot: it's a list. 23:02:16 "If x is nil, car returns nil." 23:02:21 ApeShot: one of the plusses of common lisp is that it is so relaxed about nil and truth 23:02:31 I think ApeShot is not asserting it's a bug in the standard sense 23:02:35 H4ns: disagree aggressively. 23:02:37 ApeShot: sure, it leads to gross errors, but most of the time, it is just eh niceness. 23:02:40 It is a major weakness 23:02:53 We fight with the crapiness of nil respecting types all the time 23:02:53 Crazy... Or pragmatic, maybe one for whom the standard exists to allow programs to be ported across a range of implementation, particularly large, useful, pre-existing programs. 23:02:54 ApeShot: #scheme is over there => :D 23:03:16 Unfortunately no Scheme is really available for our problem domain 23:03:24 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:30 So we try to just use CL carefully. 23:03:39 and what problem domain specific CL do you use? 23:03:50 ApeShot, don't worry, when we have algebraic data types in the next common lisp standard, we will define lists correctly and the accessors CAR/CDR will behave correctly 23:03:56 ApeShot: you can easily make a car for which (car nil) is an error 23:04:33 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:04:51 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:53 You all know how it is, though 23:04:54 Qworkescence: you could pretty easily define car and cdr to be polymorphic over a cons type and a null type 23:05:07 You hop on board with some giant code base that depends on the "feature" 23:05:18 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:30 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.53.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:49 Bike: But I object to the wisdom of an entity named after a field of a specific type of data not erroring when you pass it the wrong type 23:05:57 What you are talking about is maybe-car 23:06:06 Bike, also in the next common lisp standard, nil the symbol, nil the list, and nil the pony will be dealt with too 23:06:07 ApeShot: "We fight with the crapiness of nil respecting types all the time" <- can you elaborate? 23:06:07 Which returns None when called on Nil, perhaps 23:06:10 ApeShot: uh? NIL has a CAR. 23:06:28 phadthai: nil is not a consp 23:06:28 (defpackage :schemer (:use) (:export #:car)) (defun schemer:car (cons) (etypecase ...)) 23:06:31 It does not have a car 23:06:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:52 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 23:06:55 Qworkescence: it just doesn't seem like an issue so much as people concerned with some weird notion of mathematical purity that doesn't seem to be real 23:07:08 prxq: our system talks to a web client with values from a database which uses at various layers nil to mean "false", "undefined" or "a nil value" 23:07:15 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:21 akovalenko [~user@95.72.171.80] has joined #lisp 23:07:21 Also, it is dumb that nil is a symbol 23:07:22 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:07:25 ApeShot: but it is a list, and lists have car and cdr. 23:07:34 Bike, well, until you try to reason about large programs. Or worse, until you try to have a program reason about large programs. 23:07:38 ApeShot: car: "b. (of a list) the first element of the list, or nil if the list is the empty list. " 23:08:08 drewc: I understand the standard, I just think its poorly considered 23:08:10 Qworkescence: I don't think the ACL2 people are probably very concerned with this. 23:08:22 Bike, what about compiler people 23:08:22 Yes, one can say "technically any list has a car, and therefore nil must have one, because its a list." 23:08:38 Qworkescence: well, pkhuong's a compiler people. 23:08:40 But that doesn't really address the larger design issues of having nil stand in for so many different kinds of things. 23:08:44 ApeShot: I still don't understand your line of argument, fwiw. 23:09:00 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:09:16 ApeShot: yes, but you have not explained why, or how, or exactly what you do ... so CL is a langauge that follows the spec... but is a programmable language. 23:09:17 Qworkescence: and union types don't seem that weird to me reasoning-wise anyway. 23:09:31 pkhuong, is type checking and inference easy or exact? could one benefit from better type inference or type checking (at compile time)? 23:09:34 As far as I can tell, it's "NIL shouldn't have a CAR because only CONSes have CARs"... But that's false. 23:09:36 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-166-19-243.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:39 ApeShot: it would be nice if you could substantiate what you are saying. Up until now, you have just said "it's crap", but have not said why 23:09:41 (easy/exact for SBCL, your expertise) 23:09:56 phadthai: nil should have a car because its silly for the "empty list" to have a "first value" 23:10:00 Qworkescence: those are wider issues than "why can you call CAR on NIL" 23:10:01 Would there still be issues if nil wasn't at the bottom of the falsy-ness tree? 23:10:13 Because (car nil) and (car (cons nil x)) give the same result for two different things 23:10:20 nightfly: not as much of one 23:10:32 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abos46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:10:35 Nil is used in CL to signal what should be conditions or errors 23:10:38 ApeShot: and? (car (list nil nil)) also gives the same result. 23:10:44 Because it was easy and convenient 23:10:53 phadthai: EXACTLY 23:10:59 ApeShot: er what? no 23:11:00 ApeShot: I'd have thought conditions and errors signalled conditions and errors. 23:11:02 ApeShot: Conditions are used to signal conditions. 23:11:07 that's not phadthai, you should be more careful with your tab completion 23:11:11 ApeShot: (car (list 'a 'a)) returns the same thing as (car (list 'a)) 23:11:27 pkhuong: you are like the weirdest prescriptiveness, 23:11:48 Exactly what I am critiquing is the wisdom of the standard 23:11:57 Yes, per the standard is is the correct behavior 23:12:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:12:06 ApeShot: but your line of argument is purely circular. 23:12:11 ApeShot: but you have not said why 23:12:12 But that behavior leads to weird, sloppy code 23:12:15 No, yours is 23:12:19 Bike, I think car of nil is a product of the issues though. CAR/CDR, which are most simply defined as projections of the components of a cons (though this is NOT the CL definition so we all agree), would make for easier analysis. Instead we have all of these separate cases. A compiler sees CAR, and it can expect a slew of types. We can't tell if it'll be a list or nil or cons. 23:12:22 ApeShot: go write some actual code and you'll discover why all of these things were done 23:12:30 ApeShot: "It's weird that NIL has a CAR because only CONSes have CARs" 23:12:38 ApeShot: so it leads to lack of discipline? 23:12:40 -!- zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 23:12:43 Functions which purport to operate on a kind of data structure should return meaningful and unambiguous results 23:12:53 oGMo: I write CL for a living 23:12:54 Qworkescence: NIL having a CAR is truly trivial as an issue wrt type stuff. 23:13:04 oGMo: I write CL code every day and hate nil every day 23:13:09 ApeShot: then go write C++ 23:13:25 (listp NIL) => T 23:13:27 i found it quickly evident that (car nil) => nil was extremely useful 23:13:30 ApeShot: And that's exactly what CAR does: it works on lists. Are you angry at ELT as well because it works on sequences? 23:13:30 Qworkescence: again I don't see the problem with defining LIST to be CONS union NULL, and then defining CAR to take a LIST and return a T, and have it be polymorphic so that on CONS it does the projection and on NIL it returns NIL. 23:13:47 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:50 drewc: (listp (equal 'x y)) -> T 23:13:59 drewc: sorry, but that is ridiculous behavior 23:14:08 or even (listp (car nil)) 23:14:14 why? 23:14:19 The "first element of an empty list is a list" 23:14:20 ApeShot: (numberp (equal 1 2)) => undefined. 23:14:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:23 Qworkescence: this isn't to say that CL couldn't have some better type stuff, obviously, but I don't think this is really a part of this. 23:14:29 of that* 23:14:32 drewc: nil is not a list, so it's ridiculous that it is, apparently 23:14:42 oGMo: of course NIL is a list. 23:14:52 (eq '() NIL) 23:14:52 oGMo: I don't think anyone has yet disputed that. 23:15:01 i'm also very sceptical that anything could call itself "the new cl" and remove any of the warts that seem to upset people. 23:15:14 probably not, given this conversation :) 23:15:30 pkhuong: well that seems to be ApeShot's line of reasoning, circular assumption that NIL isn't a list and therefore any normal behavior on a list applied to NIL is illogical 23:15:32 ApeShot: lots of people program lisp every day and don't even think of that nil issue 23:15:40 being able to compile common lisp code would be the base requirement for any language specification that claims the be "new common lisp" 23:15:41 pkhuong: (obviously, it is a list) 23:15:45 Bike, It's a small, trivial matter, but as a result of sloppiness (in my opinion). It is sloppy to make nil so ambiguous yet so systemic. It's a symbol, a list, a boolean. It's almost as bad as C's 0 meaning a boolean, empty array, result of a comparison, etc. 23:15:50 oGMo: but not quite, because I don't think ApeShot is saying that the empty list isn't a list. 23:15:51 prxq: this is an entirely fair observation. It does amount to a stylistic choice. 23:15:52 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:21 H4ns: You couldn't make the equality functions more self-consistent? I think you could. :) 23:16:23 I started Lisping in Scheme and in comparison the type situation in CL seems poorly thought out, in a way which I have personally observed in my own coding and the coding of colleagues, results in bugs 23:16:34 pkhuong: if that's the case, then nothing else said makes sense 23:16:38 Qworkescence: You're talking about something else again. Do you have a problem with what I said? 23:16:46 pkhuong: I am not saying the empty list isn't a list 23:16:51 I am saying that the empty list should 23:16:55 n't have a first element 23:17:00 Or a second element 23:17:08 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:17:15 (elt nil 0) ; wish granted 23:17:19 foom: maybe a very skilled person could remove one or a few warts in a compatible manner. 23:17:19 ApeShot: ah, so it's first/rest you're worried about. I do think that would have been a good choice. 23:17:21 Bike, If I understood you correctly, you said CL has some type issues, but NIL ambiguity is not really a type issue. 23:17:26 H4ns: oh, compatible? 23:17:37 H4ns: nevermind. :) 23:17:45 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 23:17:49 Qworkescence: in this case. NIL being a symbol does bug me, actually. but really my point was that you shouldn't try to tie this into a formal reasoning issue that's not real. 23:17:55 But people programming in CL use `car` to mean "the first element of" without checking if they really have a list 23:18:02 non-empty-list 23:18:06 maybe you and your colleagues do 23:18:10 This is _all over the place_ in CL code 23:18:18 ApeShot: bad programmers are everywhere. you can't fix them by fixing the language 23:18:20 Qworkescence: From my point of there are a few big picture issues that make infering types in CL very hard. The biggest ones are, to me: 1. redefinition is explicitly allowed (modulo inline/compilation-unit). 2. error/conditions are part of the defined behaviour. 3. we can't just reject definitions we can't type, which just snowballs into not being able to tell anything. 23:18:21 It is the first thing people learn in CL, practically 23:18:35 most people programming in CL use data structures appropriate to the problem at hand 23:18:37 H4ns: I think this is a strangely black and white statement 23:18:39 not cons cells 23:18:43 programming languages can and do constrain bad behavior 23:18:59 I agree that _no language_ completely solves bad programmers 23:19:12 it's the lack of discipline 23:19:14 which language solves argumentative IRC users? 23:19:15 pkhuong, yes I agree completely, and compared to those, the NIL deal is microscopic 23:19:15 But it does not follow that language features do not promote better programming in some cases. 23:19:57 ApeShot: common lisp is not a language that "promotes better programming" per se. it is too large, and riddled with too much historic baggage. 23:20:00 pkhuong: I'm not that concerned with types being inferred at run time 23:20:01 pkhuong: What would rejecting untypeable definitions mean? And what's wrong with defined condition signaling? 23:20:01 It really bugs me that arrays aren't equal to lists in equal. And I think you could fix that (and a few things like it) without making existing CL users consider that you'd invented a completely different language, although it would be a compatibility breaker. 23:20:05 at compile time, I mean 23:20:15 I just want them to make sense, whenever they are checked 23:20:20 Qworkescence: in fact, as an implementation challenge, it's entirely subsumed by subtyping and polymorphic operations like aref or sequence operations. 23:20:21 ApeShot: put the other way round, it is just a bad language to choose if you have to deal with less gifted programmers. 23:20:28 foom: wait, like, (equal #(1 2) '(1 2))? 23:20:32 ApeShot: that's ok, I'm not talking with you about that. 23:20:38 foom: sorry, that seems _crazy_ to me 23:20:41 Bike: no, like (equal #(1 2) #(1 2)) 23:20:47 Ah 23:20:48 foom: equalp? 23:20:51 foom: sorry, not crazy 23:21:11 equalp is just crazy. :) 23:21:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:24 doesn't it do what you just said you wanted? 23:21:29 -!- Guest69351 is now known as _veer 23:21:29 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.201.184] has joined #lisp 23:21:31 no, it does that plus a bunch of other crazy shit 23:21:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:34 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:21:34 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 such as do case-insensitive character comparison. 23:22:03 i suppose that is a bit weird. 23:22:19 H4ns, re "bad language with less gifted": I said something along those lines and was met with lots of disagreement in the CL community. ( http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1321 , section on "Programmers" ) 23:22:40 Qworkescence: "cl community", there you have it. 23:22:44 haha 23:23:27 Bike: defined condition signaling means that we have to signal the condition, and at the right place. We can't reject the definition, or propagate type information backward, which would result in a condition being signaled at the wrong time, or even when the offending code would never have executed. 23:23:28 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c149f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:23:41 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:24:59 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c149f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:05 pkhuong: what would it even mean to propagate type information backwards through a conditional branch you might not take? 23:25:06 Bike: or, if we were C, assume that the error is never signaled and infer crazy stuff thence (: 23:25:11 That sounds nonsensical 23:25:32 foom: no, that's what most statically typed languages do. 23:25:47 pkhuong: oh, like... you have (defun foo (x) (declare (string x)) (/ x 4)), and you can't say "don't do that", you have to have / signal an error? (or some example that isn't /, but i can't think of something that /definitely/ signals a runtime type-error...) 23:25:50 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:26:10 Bike: that's a case when it doesn't really matter. 23:26:26 But you can check the type in a conditional and then only use the thing if the type was correct. 23:26:26 well, i couldn't think of something nontrivial off the top of my head 23:26:36 I guess you mean, there isn't a static_cast operator? 23:27:54 (and of course "check the type" could even be a random enum which indicates the type of another field in an application-specific manner) 23:27:55 foom: no, I mean that (if (foo) (+ x 1) (eq x t)) would result in X: number. 23:28:42 foom: or (if (foo) (+ x 1) (car x)) would lead to X: nil, and a straight compile-time error. 23:29:01 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:12 what, the type of x isn't allowed to be (or number list) anymore? 23:29:32 that's part of what makes CL so hard to infer. 23:29:39 :))) 23:29:41 it would have to be (and number list), assuming foo doesn't alter x, no? 23:30:04 well, and assuming foo can go either way 23:30:29 and you don't actually need to assume foo doesn't alter it, as long as you... man, mutation is hard. 23:30:29 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:30:37 so you basically want to require a static-cast operator whenever the code needs to convert from an "or" type to one of the alternatives. 23:31:22 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:30 i'm not understanding why it's an OR type and not an AND type... 23:32:12 or (ecase foo (a ...) (b ...)). We can't just propagate that foo is (OR A B) backward, because the error case is specified, and we have to trigger it at the right time. 23:32:24 Ah. 23:32:47 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.201.184] has left #lisp 23:33:19 hm, doesn't typecase return nil if nothing matches? you'd have to deal with that too. 23:33:37 And that would even be useful without hoisting the assumption through branches: (progn [do arithmetic] (etypecase ... [union of cases is subtypep fixnum])). 23:33:53 very nice. 23:33:57 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:36:02 Baker's paper on Kaplan Ullman for CL is too aggressive and makes that mistake. It seems that the result, while non-standard, was *useful* though. 23:36:13 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB7C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:25 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c149f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:50 well, of course you can move the error backwards so long as you don't move it through any side effects. 23:38:17 foom: but errors are side effects as well, so you usually can't move very far. 23:39:21 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:52 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-009-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 23:40:15 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 23:42:03 pkhuong: right, the unfortunate part about type-error isn't that it's specified to be signaled, but that it's specified to have a store-value restart and particular fields. 23:42:42 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:13 If the requirement was instead just "a type error must be signaled", then it'd be fine to omit/reorder if you were sure a different type error would be signaled instead. 23:43:23 that would give a lot more flexibility. 23:44:17 foom: even without that, it would be hard enough. Attempting to preserve SNaN/division by zero ordering/being triggered is hard enough... Which reminds me, (- double-float) is arguably "incorrect" on x86-64. 23:46:09 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:17 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:39 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:47:07 sure, which is why gcc has e.g. -fsignaling-nans 23:47:19 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has joined #lisp 23:47:59 (off by default), and -fsigned-zeros (on by default) 23:49:11 right. So even without store-value and what not, just preserving errors is hard. 23:49:41 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 Sure. I'm just pointing out that there's ample precedent for optionally ignoring those parts of the standard because they're annoying. 23:50:23 Doesn't SBCL have a float-accuracy declaration or something? 23:50:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:56:24 (- (sb-kernel:make-single-float #x7F800001)) versus (* -1 (sb-kernel:make-single-float #x7F800001)) is cute. 23:57:20 Yea, well, don't make trapping NaNs. That's mean. 23:57:33 foom: do you know when (if it ever did) GCC stopped trying to get the edge cases in complex mult/div right? 23:58:00 I don't think they did stop trying. 23:58:27 I know there's a whole lot of work recently on libc's math library to try to make it get all the edge cases right. 23:58:31 (Which it never has before) 23:58:40 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp