00:00:03 well, I cannot, and will not, because I do not likes scams! :D 00:00:17 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:54 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:01:12 (OR: that is not a good advertisment for their web based stuff at all ... so at this point, I have nothing to say/add) 00:01:58 danlentz: what is the meta-model all about? 00:02:29 but the framework it is built on is actually a product of a great deal of thought and effort 00:04:02 yeah, I used to build frameworks and not care about the end result myself ... hence Lisp on Lines. Now, I care more about the result over what is behind it, and my clients happen to agree with me :) 00:04:59 the reason my exists is because I cared about the end results first, and learned enough to build a frame 00:05:17 the metamodel is an entity-relation based concept built on tiop of the perec persistence mop but adds the kind of dynamism not unlike and rdf type of store 00:06:08 but ... heh this is my artist/photographer self speaking... the framework is what is done _after_ the art to frame has been completed ;) 00:06:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:06:51 the archetypal slots (properties) are dynamically extendeed based on new relations and generalizations that have been defined 00:07:25 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 00:07:43 and funny thing about persistent MOP and CLOS ... what was the first persistent object system implemented using POSTGRES ? 00:08:06 plus individua; entities may be extended with prottypal properties and relations 00:08:48 i thing pg was originally written in lisp 00:09:00 danlentz: Indeed. 00:09:13 yup .. and they changed to C ... but ... 00:09:39 pg is still and object based database, and classes still exist ... 00:09:57 s/still and/still an 00:10:54 -!- cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:11:23 The implementation of POSTGRES - Berkeley Database Group ... db.cs.berkeley.edu/papers/ERL-M90-34.pdf <--- CLOS 00:13:19 http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.2/static/tutorial-inheritance.html 00:13:22 anyway hu.dwim.meta-model is a real project to get my head around, but I've been most surprised for such a mountain of complexity aty how robust and stable it has been to work with. Even through i probably made every mistake possible during the process of figuriong out how to worrk with it 00:13:39 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-d7b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:47 SHODAN [~shozan@c-d7b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:14:37 stumbling blindly along.... 00:15:18 perec also supports oracle and sqlite 00:15:36 but i havent tried them myself 00:15:51 heh ... the last time I used Oracle was with Common Lisp :) 00:16:23 that was 2008 ... yikes, 5 years ago. 00:16:40 dto [60fc3e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.62.13] has joined #lisp 00:16:53 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:18:27 pgsql has been so inconspicuous in the background i've actually had pangs of guilt that in 6 months i'v´e learn´d absolutely nothing about it 00:19:04 onluy cracked open the book once to look up the pgsql regular expression syntax 00:20:18 perec i9s a pretty comprehensive layer abstracting over it 00:21:12 -!- hiato [~nine@41-135-86-50.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Nothing so gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums.] 00:21:19 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@67-198-16-147.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 00:21:36 so i still have the illusion of a [pure common=-lisp development environment 00:21:43 well, in 2000 I was a member of a team that took a main system and moved it from mysql to postgresql ... one of the members of that team is a well known postgresql developer... and the company was AT&T ... So, ever since then, I have used postgresql. So far, so good. 00:24:00 danlentz: well, unfortunately for me, my clients have companies that need to make some $ ... so my illusion is "Use lisp where needed, use other things if they save time/money/effort" 00:24:06 good to hear. that is a solid endorsement 00:24:26 stopbit [~stopbit@c-68-50-168-116.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:31 Ah. 00:24:48 -!- dto [60fc3e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.62.13] has left #lisp 00:25:15 and in my case, I have writtin other codes! for example, javascript, SQL and /bin/sh ;) 00:25:48 -!- zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:52 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-188-201.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:26:23 I'm kind of still in the use lisp everywhere but live in a rented cardboard box. 00:26:55 and, well, having a database that is common and well known means that other things can access the db, not just my lisp app. The one I am working on now, every app user has a db ROLE, and the history is stored via triggers and hstore. 00:27:28 y that was exactly why went to petec in the first place 00:27:38 clos in the middle 00:27:41 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-004-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:43 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-004-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:16 dto [60fc3e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.62.13] has joined #lisp 00:28:56 you guys are reminding me: I've put off learning databases way longer than I should have. can you recommend resources/tools I could use to teach myself in a lisp-oriented way? 00:29:35 but transparent. The database is very easily used directy and is pretty clean schema. And the javascript/web front end is also transparently generated from the clos model via weblocks or whatever 00:30:08 so basically the common-lisp here in the middle approaches totoal invisibiliuty 00:30:24 even thopugh its all i acgtually write code in 00:30:30 That said, last year I worked over 12 hours every day in Common Lisp ... so I still use CL a lot. I just do not waste time trying to create something when it has already been done, and do not care what lang it is implemented in as long as it 'works'. 00:32:43 and heh ... I generate less and less, and use macros less and less. Yet my code is shorter, easier to undestand, and 'logical' ... so I will now simply be quiet :P 00:32:54 yes well hopefully businesss will pick up a little over here or i may find myself embracing a similar pragmatism 00:33:44 _ponce [~ponce@ks393605.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:58 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-162-106.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 00:34:16 Dalek_Baldwin: databases and lisp have very little to do with eachother ... so what exactly do you want/need to know? 00:35:30 that's the thing, I don't really know where to start 00:35:33 danlentz: well, I can always suggest that folks do what I do .. branch out! I run about 5 small businesses, and that can help when 4 are going slow :) 00:36:08 Dalek_Baldwin: 42 is the answer! 00:36:09 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 00:36:13 my natural inclination would be to try to find a convenient lisp library to mess around for a while, then get serious about the theory behind it 00:36:21 and bring a towel 00:36:45 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.7.240] has joined #lisp 00:37:30 many people seem to like postmodern 00:37:34 danlentz: A 2 C 4 E F G ... DB! :) 00:37:34 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:58 *drewc* sticks his thumb out 00:38:23 I use postmodern a lot 00:39:09 in fact, my name is probably in the src somewhere .. I think I had a patch that went in like 5 years or more ago 00:40:55 (postmodern:query (:order-by (:raw (s-sql:sql-compile `(:select ...))))) <--- c/p from my open lisp file ... so working using postmodern right now! 00:42:02 but .... reading the postmodern/s-sql/cl-postgres code will not teach very much about databases 00:42:30 for that matter, reading the postgresql code will not likely help either 00:43:40 member:Dalek_Baldwin: and it provides an interface to the db which is not so abstracted as to prevent you from delving more directly into the DB as you become more familiar with it 00:44:35 danlentz: indeed .. (:raw ...) helps quite a bit there 00:44:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003da9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:45:00 sounds good, quicklisping it now 00:45:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-82-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:45:35 Dalek_Baldwin: if you want to learn about databases, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database is a good place to start. 00:45:57 -!- ludston [~patience@CPE-121-216-102-83.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:46:39 having said that, btrees! :D 00:47:19 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:48:35 and, if there are any chinese/scottish around, today is a cultural event day in Vancouver, so Gung Haggis Fat Choy! 00:49:06 hey, awesome encyclopedia entry for LISP from 2000: http://imgur.com/a/caWg8 00:49:11 :) 00:49:42 ha. 00:50:28 got this for $8 on amazon. 00:52:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 00:54:04 dto: :D 00:57:56 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:03:58 -!- dto [60fc3e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.62.13] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:04:58 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:42 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:09 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:38 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:11:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:13 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:28:10 Left_Turn [~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067] has joined #lisp 01:29:57 -!- Left_Turn [~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067] has left #lisp 01:31:54 -!- ApeShot [~user@adsl-184-39-199-28.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:35:03 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:45:09 -!- pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 01:45:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:47 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.161.187] has joined #lisp 01:46:35 i am also interested in learning about databases more deeply... i learn well from books, and am curious if there are any recommendations from fellow lisper perspectives for a book that covers databases in a general way (something closer to "database theory" than any specific dbms coverage) 01:49:34 robot-beethoven: the issue is that "database theory" is a lot of things combined, because that is what databases are. So, specifically, what do you want to know? Because you already know the general way. 01:49:59 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-18-187.25-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:50:30 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:52:10 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:52:20 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:52:49 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:53:41 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:06 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:27 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:57:44 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:03 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:58:32 drewc: i generally avoid anything like postgresql, mysql, etc., as i find sql distasteful for some reason (which may include lack of study). so i continue with my simple persistence solutions (such as bknr-datastore), which so far have been perfectly adequate. but i fear being rendered totally inadequate should the day come that i absolutely need some sql wizardry. 01:59:02 (let (db) (push :this-is-a-db-stored-thing db) (push '(so is this)) (write db :stream *db-stream*)) 02:00:15 or: postgresql and mysql are very different databases, and for postgres at least, database procedures can be written in Common Lisp :) 02:00:35 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:36 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:36 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:26 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:05:13 robot-beethoven: so, first of, SQL is not so bad for what it does. Postgresql in specfic has a lot of features that I use that have nothing at all to do with syntax, and did not start off as an SQL database at all ... so ... why the distaste for SQL? is it relational algebra that you do not like? 02:06:55 -!- cfy`` [~ilisp@115.239.4.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:07:50 drewc: 'relational algebra' -- there's a term i needed. i have not studied relational algebra 02:08:22 well, relational model, relational database ... RDBMS 02:09:20 so if you want to get started on a general thing, relational is indeed a good place to get your feet wet :) 02:10:03 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-162-106.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:10 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 02:11:18 i think my distaste might have something to do with my only SQL experience: me the noob programmer making some sort of php-mysql sphagetti-code site several years ago 02:13:10 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:47 what have you used for persistance since then? 02:14:04 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:14:05 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 02:15:34 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:01 ebobby: i switched to mongodb with node.js for a while, but for the past year have been using bknr-datastore with hunchentoot. i apparently like to start things over ;) 02:19:04 kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:08 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d562.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:23:02 actually, i used mysql alongside django somewhere in there too -- that was particularly rough. django has some sort of ORM, that in theory is supposed to simplify things, but for me everything just got complicated 02:23:42 -!- kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:24:07 kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:31 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:07 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ffab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:38 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:50 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 02:36:24 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 02:37:50 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:56 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:39 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 02:48:01 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 02:48:23 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:16 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:53:14 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:48 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has joined #lisp 03:05:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:06:17 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:54 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:14:58 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 03:17:38 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:52 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-99-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:18:16 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-99-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:02 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.34] has joined #lisp 03:24:22 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:58 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:31:01 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:09 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:08 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.161.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:52 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:39:48 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:57 hi all 03:40:33 is it possible to get the current disk use (similar to linux's "df" command) through a common lisp command? 03:41:05 luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:07 call out to the OS. 03:42:56 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:34 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:19 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:57 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has left #lisp 03:47:34 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:04 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:35 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:02 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:51:31 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:40 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:00 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:33 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:01 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 03:56:53 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 04:01:50 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:17 -!- benny [~user@i577A1B12.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:03:27 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:34 -!- kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:53 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:07:26 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.7.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:07:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:08:05 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:17 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-beqdzqfbiilycqfg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:11:42 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:29 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:14:55 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:49 Apathetic [~zurcaled@121.54.44.167] has joined #lisp 04:17:58 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:18:12 -!- Apathetic [~zurcaled@121.54.44.167] has left #lisp 04:20:14 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:22:52 isd [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:14 cfy`` [~ilisp@115.239.4.1] has joined #lisp 04:27:47 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:27:51 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.161.187] has joined #lisp 04:29:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:29:42 -!- cfy`` is now known as cfy 04:29:44 -!- cfy [~ilisp@115.239.4.1] has quit [Changing host] 04:29:44 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:32:42 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:33:57 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:34:38 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:44 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 04:41:51 luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:35 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 04:53:21 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:54:35 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:59:55 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 05:00:09 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:01:41 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:01:53 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:02:01 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:48 baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has joined #lisp 05:05:36 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 05:05:47 hi guys, I use clasp, when I want indentation in interpreter. It break out 05:07:31 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.229] has joined #lisp 05:09:56 BountyX [~andrew@12.40.240.232] has joined #lisp 05:10:39 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:10 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:38 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:17:50 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:20:54 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:21:12 les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.216] has joined #lisp 05:24:01 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:39 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:29:12 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:33:53 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:11 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.229] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:34:21 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.198] has joined #lisp 05:34:36 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 05:35:00 luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:58 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-169FBE84.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 05:39:58 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 05:41:24 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 05:42:26 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:40 luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:19 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:44:32 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:45:47 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:46:32 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:39 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 05:50:12 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:13 pnpuff [~eternit@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:07:35 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:13:08 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 06:16:03 -!- pnpuff [~eternit@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 06:16:19 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:39 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:22:29 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:26:04 albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has joined #lisp 06:27:04 -!- albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:59 Strigoides_ [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:30:25 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:34:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 06:35:44 agumonkey [~agu@240.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:32 -!- BountyX [~andrew@12.40.240.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:39:49 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:42:20 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:15 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:45:44 luqui_ [~luqui@71-218-21-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:49 eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 06:55:47 jeremySa [~jeremy@dyn-160-39-226-220.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:55:58 -!- jeremySa [~jeremy@dyn-160-39-226-220.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:45 -!- mechanyancat [~mechanyan@li125-243.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 07:08:08 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-131-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:17:12 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:18:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:18:41 -!- karswell is now known as rexelwatcher 07:18:52 -!- rexelwatcher is now known as karswell 07:44:54 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:45:47 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:00 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:47:21 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:47:42 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 07:51:04 benny [~user@i577A78A5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.21.141] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.21.141] has quit [Changing host] 07:56:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:57:00 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 07:57:06 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.38.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:57:16 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.154.105] has joined #lisp 07:59:19 hmm. I have a question. CL has separate namespaces for functions and variables. so far so good. 07:59:30 now, #'car is shorthand for (function car) 07:59:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:59:44 yes. 07:59:54 how does "function" know to look into the function namespace, and why doesn't car have to be quoted there? 08:00:07 or, rahter.. just the latter part? 08:00:12 why is no quoting necessary? 08:00:42 zvrba: function is a special form. 08:00:55 oh. ok. 08:04:36 zvrba: the (function ...) performs the "quoting" 08:05:22 -!- baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has quit [Quit: baotiao] 08:08:22 ahh, so it's like (quote car) 08:08:33 except that it returns a function instead of a symbol 08:08:47 baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 hmm, i have a philosohpical question. 08:09:33 SICP defines readable accessor functions for its data structures. LoL uses stuff like cadr, caddr all over the place. 08:10:26 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:10:49 what are advantages/disadvantages of either approach? 08:11:02 -!- baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:06 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:08 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.46.246] has joined #lisp 08:11:56 Greetings! 08:12:07 zvrba: with the former you don't need to know how structures are represented. with the latter you don't need to figure out what the new names mean. 08:13:00 pr0x1mity [~Svetlana@adsl-69-225-138-174.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:18 hm. pick your poison, I guess :/ 08:13:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:13:27 do i have to have a lisp in order to learn this language? 08:13:38 do you need to have a car to learn to drive? 08:13:43 yeah 08:14:07 zvrba: a cdr is enough 08:14:22 stassats: hmm? 08:14:27 aha :) 08:14:31 Lol. 08:14:49 "my other car is a cdr" 08:14:57 my car is a mercedes 08:15:02 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:15:12 yeah. took me a bit to figure out it was a joke :) since "cdr" is also related to my previous question :) 08:15:18 -!- luqui_ [~luqui@71-218-21-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui_] 08:15:29 zvrba: do you mean Land of Lisp? 08:15:34 yes 08:16:17 it's confusing since there's also Let Over Lambda 08:16:30 oh. sorry. 08:17:30 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.154.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:17:31 these lisp authors really should be coordinating ;) 08:17:42 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:28 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.82.69] has joined #lisp 08:18:33 hah! :) 08:18:36 don't forget lisp on lines 08:18:45 but now i have to go out. get some food. bbl. 08:18:52 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.46.111] has joined #lisp 08:19:32 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.139.140] has joined #lisp 08:19:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:20:45 zvrba: yes, "hah!" is another form of lol 08:21:01 lol 08:21:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:23:56 how do i get a lisp? 08:24:14 myx [~myx@95.84.39.233] has joined #lisp 08:24:15 sbcl.org 08:24:29 pnpuff [~eternit@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:24:51 i need to have a lisp in order to learn the language right? why else would they call it lisp? 08:25:40 pr0x1mity: you can also try "Lisp in a box", btw. 08:25:50 Yeah. That's why I have a pet python, and plenty of pearls and rubies 08:26:00 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-029-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:29 well i have a 5 ct ruby and i look at it every time i'm doing ruby programming 08:26:55 Aw, I've just understood his joke. =( 08:27:21 it's not like you were missing much. 08:28:05 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has joined #lisp 08:28:18 pr0x1mity: www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ will make a good companion to your lisp 08:28:27 thanks 08:28:33 i hope steve wozniak will be proud 08:28:46 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:29:01 i'm so lucky to know him personally :) 08:29:52 bitonic [~user@ppp-18-187.25-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 08:32:30 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 08:34:11 baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has joined #lisp 08:34:29 -!- baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:51 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.161.187] has left #lisp 08:35:36 -!- pnpuff [~eternit@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:37:48 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 08:38:03 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:06 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 08:40:48 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 08:41:46 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 08:41:52 stardivi` [~user@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 08:42:59 -!- stardivi` [~user@122.236.245.102] has quit [Client Quit] 08:44:22 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:54 re yesterday #_ discussion, i think returning ((lambda (&rest args) ...) . left-args) is actually an option 08:46:13 the macro it uses conses an arglist anyhow 08:48:07 unless i can actually remove consing from that macro 08:51:46 pr0x1mity: seriously? 08:51:58 yeah why? 08:52:07 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-18-187.25-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:22 he's a great reason i'm still interested in computers 08:52:25 i want to do acting 08:53:35 I meant "do you really know him personally?" by "seriously?". 08:53:39 i realized the difference between an actor and a hacker is like a cappuccino and a lattte macchiato 08:54:01 yeah, what's the difference? 08:54:08 Wow. 08:54:13 i've met him at the iPad 3 line and he told me to keep in touch, i emailed him and he said to give him or his wife a call whenever i'm near san jose 08:56:29 *stassats* can't figure how is this related to Lisp 08:56:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:56:42 he told me it's a useful language 08:57:16 language is a deceitful thing 08:57:19 lol 08:57:23 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:57:29 he said lisp is a very useful language 08:57:39 language is not really important. 08:57:40 language is still a deceitful thing 08:58:08 human/spoken language,that is 08:58:34 well, it's true, lisp is a very useful language. 08:58:42 I mean in programming. 08:59:10 the only thing which is important is a way of thinking and knowledge, imo. Language is just a tool. 08:59:14 so, what exiciting things have been happening with cl in the past few months? i'm pretty well abrest sbcl news, but the rest i haven't managed to follow 08:59:16 if someone wants to help me out i'll credit you for the help when i meet up with woz again 08:59:17 pr0x1mity: perl is very useful too. 08:59:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:59:32 But lisp is a very handy tool, yeah. 08:59:42 hitecnologys: i disagree. A language can make things difficult. 08:59:45 or easy 08:59:51 perl is "handy". lisp is "powerful" 08:59:51 H4ns, memo from hydan: thanks for your comments earlier on. i came up with this as a reply, if you have few minutes to read - http://paste.lisp.org/display/134898. guys over #lisp provided me with some more critique, but would appreciate if you have some as well.. those are more like a direction rather than goals. i do have more 'realistic' shorter term goals, like learning lisp better and getting a 'thanks' for a bug report (: 09:00:06 pr0x1mity: can you keep off bragging about you meeting some celebrity? 09:00:19 Anyway, it is just a tool we created to solve some specific problems. 09:00:26 and talk about Common Lisp instead 09:00:49 i'm not bragging 09:00:53 nikodemus: ASDF has been growing/changing 09:00:58 i need help with some stuff that i don't understand 09:01:21 stassats: GCL showed signs of life again 09:01:27 is someone helps me i'll give you credit and if one of my ideas make money and you helped i'll give you a cut it's only fair 09:01:28 then ask about that instead 09:01:35 steve wozniak isn't a celebrity 09:01:37 stassats: what's up with it? 09:01:40 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 nikodemus: Fare has gone on a reworking spree 09:01:50 pr0x1mity: please go away 09:01:52 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:02:01 nikodemus: removing old features, ironing bugs 09:02:03 pr0x1mity: you were already linked Practical Common Lisp. read that if you want to learn. 09:02:19 stassats: is there a summary what has been removed? 09:02:22 yeah but i need programming basics for complete noobs, that book is too hard 09:02:29 nikodemus: a recent mail on asdf-devel 09:02:38 pr0x1mity: programming is hard. 09:02:42 pr0x1mity: try "a gentle introduction to symbolic computation" 09:02:53 i actually don't like the direction new asdf is going 09:03:00 it becomes more and more complicated 09:03:06 minion: tell pr0x1mity about nikodemus-faq 09:03:13 bah. http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html 09:03:16 minion: wake up! 09:03:17 nikodemus-faq: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 09:03:34 okay i won't forget you guys 09:03:35 crap 09:03:37 you speak nonsense 09:03:38 thanks for the material 09:04:09 nikodemus: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.asdf.devel/2728 09:04:27 thanks! 09:04:38 pr0x1mity: functional languages are not for completely noobs, I guess. 09:04:43 i personally think that 2.26 was the last good version, so i'm staying with it for a foreseeable future 09:06:02 baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has joined #lisp 09:06:09 -!- baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has quit [Client Quit] 09:06:46 bitonic [~user@ppp-18-187.25-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 09:07:32 hm. i wish some of those items had examples 09:08:17 "style made popular by faslpath and quick-build" ?? wat? 09:08:30 "Deferred warnings for yet undefined functions, that in a single-session build are usually signaled at the end of a compilation unit, will be saved and reassembled to make each system a compilation unit of its own, even when compilation of file happens across multiple sessions" is just crazy 09:08:50 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:08:53 it writes down warnings into a file on disc 09:09:03 probably getting bit late to this conversation ... but I believe a "programing language" also helps to mold the "thinking" , hence the language can be very relevant 09:09:18 that's... uh, interesting 09:09:39 that seems like a pretty weird thing to do, and a nontrivial amount of work, were people asking for it? 09:09:45 i couldn't pry out of Fare what's the motivation behind this particular thing 09:09:51 oh. 09:10:18 baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has joined #lisp 09:10:35 i think he wants to build on many instances of an impl separately 09:11:06 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.46.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:11:07 but i just think that ASDF just tries to hard to do the right thing, without the user intervening, but most of the time what is the right thing is unclear or really hard to achieve 09:11:20 or a matter of taste 09:11:37 luqui [~luqui@71-218-21-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:37 so it accrues more and more hacks, gravitating towards an unmaitanable mess 09:12:02 has anyone used faslpath here? 09:12:10 araujo: sure, but mind is more important than language. 09:12:11 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-82-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:13:25 hitecnologys, if you look closely at them ... they both help to mold each other .... even something that happens with natural languages 09:13:51 araujo: yes, sure. 09:14:08 I think I wouldn't go so far saying which one is more important, but, maybe it is more important to realize of the relevance of both 09:14:18 stassats: so what do you think should happen with lisp system management going forward? 09:15:54 Bike: a) be more simple b) as little #+implementation as possible 09:16:19 faslpath seems sane enough, but having spent the past 8 months inside a deeply nested tree with java.style.hierarchy, i don't really want to do that i can avoid it. i don't actively hate it, but i don't like it either 09:16:41 *araujo* also believes functional/declarative paradigm is/should be actually easier for new comers ... 09:16:42 Bike: for example, ASDF tries to be hot-upgradable, which causes very many troubles on different implementations 09:16:55 yeah, seen enough of that from you talking with fare 09:16:55 it even now has its own package implementations, how crazy is that? 09:17:03 but well, that is debatable in such an imperative world :P 09:17:09 well, lisp packaging does seem a bit crazy 09:17:22 though you probably wouldn't need that without hot upgrading, yeah... 09:17:58 so, if i were in charge, i'd say "screw this upgradability business, it causes more headache than it resolves, so let's drop it" 09:18:13 did you know niggers are from africa? 09:18:17 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18:21 araujo: declarative - definitely, functional - maybe. 09:19:36 i believe in user's discretion, given the right set of warnings or errors, the user can arrange for ASDF to upgrade causing less pain to himself 09:19:52 araujo: functional doesn't work like natural way of thinking. Imperative, logical, declarative etc are more natural. 09:20:07 refractor_ [1812fce3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.18.252.227] has joined #lisp 09:21:10 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:21:21 as to other instances of #+implementation: work with implements to get that feature added/fixed, support older version for a set period of time, like two releases, or up to the version in debian stable 09:21:34 with implementors 09:22:08 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 09:23:02 pr0x1mity: this is your warning. behave 09:23:45 ultimately, institute a feature freeze, so that people don't need to update ASDF at all, add a stable public API, so that new features can be added as extensions 09:23:59 if nigger is a bad word then how come honky isn't? 09:24:10 old ASDF had things like asdf-binary-locations as an extension, and it worked well 09:24:30 I'm fucking with all of you i never met steve wozniak 09:24:43 haha you should have seen the looks on your faces lmfao 09:24:51 pr0x1mity: go away 09:24:55 OMFGOMFGOMFGOMFG 09:24:57 LOL 09:25:10 calling all ops 09:25:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode -v pr0x1mity 09:25:16 drewc: p_l wake up! 09:25:50 can nikodemus not kickban? 09:26:07 Bike: i do ops so rarely i need to remember how to do things first 09:26:17 ah, heh. 09:26:37 hitecnologys, well, functional being embraced as a declarative paradigm , I still believe it could be easier to learn .... the paradigm is "clearer" to understand in my opinion, ... though many of the learning curve issues are probably due to the different "artifacts" of a functional language ... specially purely functional ones 09:26:48 *stassats* got to vent his asdf frustration, now to think about other CL news 09:27:21 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:27:31 hitecnologys, I mean ... a "pure" function is already far easier to deal with than with an imperative procedure with side effects ... (just think about it) 09:27:32 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 09:27:45 for new comers I mean 09:28:20 nikodemus: are you interested in Qt on lisp? commonqt got faster, better, started to work on ABCL and ECL 09:28:21 Maybe. 09:28:24 -!- ChanServ has set mode +b pr0x1mity!*@* 09:28:24 -!- pr0x1mity [ChanServ@services.] has been kicked from #lisp by ChanServ (User is banned from this channel) 09:28:42 ABCL and ECL advanced in general recently to the point where they can be used for most things 09:28:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o nikodemus 09:29:27 cl-test-grid helps with testing 09:29:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: dead] 09:29:42 yeah! i a saw rudi has jumped shit to abcl. :) that's very nice 09:29:49 -!- refractor_ [1812fce3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.18.252.227] has left #lisp 09:30:07 ITYM ship 09:30:08 hmm. any opinion on flet/labels vs global functions in a new package? 09:30:09 sbcl, abcl, ecl -- the future triumvirate of cl :) 09:30:13 oops 09:30:15 yes 09:30:18 ccl too 09:30:30 no love for clisp? 09:30:33 what's it's niche? 09:30:54 sbcl goes fast, abcl works on jvm, ecl is embeddable 09:30:56 nikodemus: fast compilation times, still fast code, works on ARM 09:31:02 fair enough 09:31:08 nikodemus: somewhat better support for certain OSes 09:31:11 as well 09:31:39 I'd like to get into sbcl development, or at least get a (vague) understanding of how it works. I've found http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/index which seems quite useful, anyone have any other resources/tips? 09:31:42 nikodemus: an alternative to checking whether SBCL is buggy or not, if CCL has the same bug, that's not as shameful 09:32:00 i know i've done that :) 09:32:04 -!- dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:32:08 and CCL actually supports foreign thread callbacks by default 09:32:22 without experimental features which don't work without patches 09:32:29 Strigoides_: http://insidelisp.blogspot.com has a some more bits 09:32:44 zvrba: clisp seems to be lagging behind 09:33:03 stassats: in terms of what? CL standard got finished long ago.. 09:33:25 didn't david merge foreign thread callback support? 09:33:27 (just curious since LoL chose clisp as its implementation) 09:33:45 you do know that it has bugs, and that implementations are not just about the standard? 09:33:45 hydan: Thanks, that seems helpful 09:34:01 nikodemus: he did, but it breaks in some cases 09:34:08 stassats: mm :) I know that the last release was 2 years ago. 09:34:11 clisp's niche seems to be "works almost anywhere" 09:34:45 i recently reported a bug, with a working for me patch, like two months ago, still no response 09:35:06 and i reported 10s of bugs to ABCL and ECL each, most of them got fixed pretty quickly 09:35:07 stassats: to be fair that's happened often enough with sbcl too 09:35:29 (ie. reported bugs with patches not getting attention) 09:35:30 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-18-187.25-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:35:40 ok, I'll come back and ask for alternatives when LoL starts using clisp-specific features :) 09:36:18 zvrba: clisp is pretty slow for anything cpu-intensive with the exception of bignum arithmetic 09:36:26 but it was easy, and a pretty egregious bug: coalescing of load-time-values which forms are EQ 09:37:05 right 09:37:06 so, a macro expanding into load-time-values and wants to modify the resulting value is hosed 09:37:53 zvrba: it also has a history of introducing non-ansisms. meaning not extensions, just breaking the standard -- but it has gotten mostly past that in the last um, 5 years? 09:38:05 oh :/ 09:39:02 zvrba: it at least used to take a very different stance on some underspecified parts of the standard, with everyone else mostly in agreement on how things supposed to work (primarily pathnames). no idea if this still holds 09:39:04 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:39:39 but to be fair, underspecified is underspecified, and everyone is guilty to some degree of thinking they know the best 09:40:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.190.112] has joined #lisp 09:40:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.190.112] has quit [Changing host] 09:40:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 refractor [~flynn@c-24-18-252-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:48 yes, why does lisp does it differently from everyone else? why isn't path a simple string? I remember trying to open a file with CLL was an... interesting adventure. 09:40:51 i *know* sbcl's treat ment of the empty type as function return type is controversial, but i also *strongly* believe it follows directly from standard and is sane and useful to boot 09:41:15 zvrba: same reason there's boost::path 09:41:17 s/CLL/CCL/ 09:41:31 because not everobody is using the same OS 09:41:40 but strings are pathname designators, so they mostly work too 09:41:49 nikodemus: well, i've never used it. 99% of OS-es where LISP runs accept "/" as path separator. 09:42:18 anyway.. let's not go deeper into this discussion :) 09:42:31 windows has drive letters in paths 09:42:52 zvrba: at the time the standard was written that was not the case. : and ; where also common directory separators 09:43:01 were, even 09:43:22 "common" being a relative term, of course 09:44:10 most of the problems with portability are due to logical pathnames or wild pathnames 09:44:32 pnpuff [~laudo@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 09:44:38 and host/device being swapped on some implementations 09:45:26 and symbolic links versus truename resolution. and #'directory being near useless portably 09:46:04 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:55 but, but... what's the point of trying to standardize pathnames when anything else than simple filenames are necessarily platform-specific? 09:47:09 s/are/is/ 09:47:40 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:42 somebody's /usr/bin/ls is somebody else's /bin/ls . how does it help to have platform-independent path specification there? 09:47:44 the point is to standardize the correctly and unambigously 09:47:49 them 09:47:59 because then by paying a little extra case you have portable code that can use pathnames for most purposes 09:48:53 and as said, since strings are pathname designators (open "/tmp/foo" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create) still works when you don't want to think about it 09:49:23 "/tmp/foo[x]" doesn't... 09:49:34 open /bin/true :) 09:50:26 (sb-ext:parse-native-namestring "/tmp/foo[x]") works 09:50:29 w00t, it actually worked. 09:50:32 :) 09:51:00 now, how can I close an open'd stream if I haven't stored the value returned by open into some variable? :) 09:51:21 you would use with-open-file 09:51:54 ah, nevermind. I just typed nikodemus's example straight into the REPL :) 09:51:55 and on clisp, filenames with [] or * can't be expressed at all 09:52:02 DIRECTORY just doesn't show them 09:52:33 zvrba: *, **, and *** are your friends 09:52:47 stassats: interesting, even if I -sincerely- do not understand the "difficulties" 09:52:59 nikodemus: oh, thanks! :) 09:54:01 -!- myx [~myx@95.84.39.233] has quit [Quit: ] 09:54:04 clhs *** 09:54:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v__stst_.htm 09:54:52 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:31 What's the best way to print an arbitrarily long sequence of a single character? 09:55:42 (format t "~10,'-d" 3) prints 10 hyphens 09:55:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v__stst_.htm 09:55:48 and also a 3 09:55:58 It depends on what you think is good. 09:56:05 R0tat0r [~42@tmo-107-155.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:09 stassats: hmm, even some features of the REPL are standardized. that's impressive. 09:56:25 Zhivago: good answer! ^^ 09:57:02 Some people like to use loops. 09:57:19 there's no terse way to do that using format? 09:57:52 ...others like more sloops... :) 09:58:06 There should be. Look for how format parameters work. 09:58:49 if you need to do it often and fast, (defun make-char-repeater (char count) (let ((string (make-string count :initial-element char))) (lambda (stream) (write-string string stream))) ; or something like that, untested 09:59:11 -!- baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has quit [Quit: baotiao] 09:59:52 samebchase: (format t "~v,,,'-<~>" 10) 10:00:19 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@187.120.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:00:46 woah, nice 10:03:03 (format t "~v@{~a~:*~}~*~a" 10 "arbitrary" " string") 10:03:23 hm, emacs/slime has suddenly decided that inferior lisp doesn't exist 10:03:33 whereas I can nicely interact with it in the other buffer 10:04:03 what does it say? 10:04:13 or, sending something to lisp from an editor buffer has stopped working. it works in REPL. 10:04:41 stassats: it doesn't say anything. I press C-x C-e, it returns "LOOK" (as if defun has been evaluated), but the change is not reflected in the REPL 10:04:58 is it in the right package? 10:05:03 i just did (defun look () 3) and it's still using the old definition 10:05:32 is look inlined? used as #'look? 10:05:40 stassats: i guess so, I have no package statements. and when I choose lisp -> eval defun, it says process lisp doesn't exist. 10:05:44 no, no 10:05:52 maybe a sbcl/windows problem? 10:05:55 no 10:06:43 hm, suddenly I have two inferior lisp buffers 10:07:01 "lisp" menu is not for slime 10:07:25 oh, I guess lispcabinet has messed it up. I fired up CCL (also from lispcabinet) and it must have connected to the first emacs as server and started up another inferior lisp 10:07:51 no, it can't do that automagically 10:08:36 zvrba: what happens when you do C-c C-y while the cursor is inside that defun? 10:08:36 yup, it did it. i just killed the 2nd inferior lisp buffer, and it asked me about switching to SBCL repl because the deafult connection didn't exist anymore. 10:09:01 now defun, etc works as expected 10:09:32 -!- R0tat0r [~42@tmo-107-155.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:09:41 -!- pnpuff [~laudo@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 10:10:10 the minibuffer says to which lisp it's connected right now 10:10:33 but anyhow, just starting CCL couldn't have caused this 10:11:08 hmm, ok, if you say so. i'll pay better atention the next time I start a parallel lisp session. 10:11:18 *attention 10:11:32 but then again, i don't know what this lispcabinet is doing, maybe it's not "just starting CCL" 10:11:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:12:09 -!- refractor [~flynn@c-24-18-252-227.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:12:12 and use Slime menu, if you must use menu at all 10:12:36 menu is convenient for looking up keybindings 10:12:42 (format t "~v@{~a~:*~}" 10 "-") hmm 10:14:21 you can do (format t "~v@{-~}~a" 10 'something-else ), wouldn't work if there's nothing else after it 10:15:16 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 10:15:41 zvrba: you would learn them faster without a menu 10:15:49 burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:07 stassats: spiel mit mir, ein Spiel. 10:16:58 no, and english, please 10:17:01 Installing the package ironclad and I get "The symbol "CRYPT-GEN-RANDOM" is not external in the SB-WIN32 package.". Can't find any reference to it with grep in the source, or anything on google. Any ideas? 10:17:10 Using quicklisp btw. 10:17:12 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:18:16 stassats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjXH0AgT1_Q 10:18:31 burrows: it's a feature of the windows sbcl fork 10:18:40 zolk3ri: don't talk to me unless it's about lisp, ok 10:18:54 Was that sarcasm? 10:18:54 burrows: soon the mainline sbcl will have it too 10:18:57 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has joined #lisp 10:19:15 what sarcasm? 10:19:28 Thought you were making a joke about bugs being features on Windows. 10:19:30 But appears not. 10:19:45 You are saying that the package is expecting something that only exists in a particular fork? 10:19:49 yes 10:20:15 stassats: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html <- the dump-db looks all nice except it prints newline after the last list, what would you do? 10:20:45 Link to some documentation on this? As I'm running sbcl Windows fork afaik. 10:20:53 zolk3ri: two level of ~{ 10:21:05 burrows: not new enough? 10:21:41 Alright I should investigate more, thanks. 10:22:49 I think I'm running mainline SBCL on windows as opposed to the fork. 10:22:58 it actually has two levels of ~{ at the second version, so, just ~^ before ~% 10:22:58 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:23:21 mainline will have crypt-gen-random in 1.1.5 10:23:30 Alright cool. 10:23:34 1.1.4 is already in freeze 10:24:09 in the meantime, you can pester froydnj for including fork features 10:24:25 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:54 Sounds good, not blocking me right now so may be able to wait it out. 10:25:00 Maybe ping him. 10:26:25 you can comment it out 10:26:43 Yes. 10:26:56 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:57 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:32:55 -!- luqui [~luqui@71-218-21-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 10:33:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:03 luqui [~luqui@71-218-21-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:14 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:34:50 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:15 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.216] has joined #lisp 10:35:49 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 10:37:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003da9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:27 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 10:38:37 hmm, how do I find out whether I'm using SBCL WIn32 fork or mainline? 10:40:08 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:40:12 (sb-win32:get-version-ex) exists. so is the guess that i'm running the fork correct..? 10:40:24 maki`` [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 10:41:16 No. 10:41:30 Function works for me and I'm not runningn fork. 10:41:40 ok. so how do I find out whether i'm running the fork? 10:44:18 zvrba: what does lisp-implementation-version say? 10:46:31 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:43 -!- Strigoides_ is now known as Strigoides 10:48:07 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-141-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:46 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 10:50:32 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.202.152] has joined #lisp 10:51:38 nikodemus: You're an SBCL developer, correct? 10:51:52 when i have time 10:51:56 Do you have any thoughts regarding my previous question? 10:51:59 (if you saw it) 10:52:05 didn't 10:52:09 I'll c/p it 10:52:13 I'd like to get into sbcl development, or at least get a (vague) understanding of how it works. I've found http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/index which seems quite useful, anyone have any other resources/tips? 10:52:35 launchpad has some bugs marked "easy" 10:52:55 following sbcl-devel / reading the archives 10:53:03 hanging on #sbcl 10:53:20 grepping source tree for FIXME 10:53:57 making it do something that you need better 10:54:02 cool, thanks 10:54:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-141-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:31 there's also an internals manual in the source tree 10:55:17 in the cmucl source tree src/docs/internals/internal-design.txt is vastly outdated in the specifics for sbcl, but can still help you get the lay of the land 10:55:42 cheers, that's very helpful 10:56:00 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:56:25 it's also useful to remember that sbcl is a BIG system with lots of relatively independent bits. there's the compiler. there's the gc. there's the "common lisp" library. 10:56:31 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-141-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:37 yeah, it's very overwhelming 10:56:47 you can dive into one without worrying too much about the others 10:57:03 I've looked at some of the code in src/code, which is fairly easy to understand 10:57:09 but a lot of the rest is more difficult 10:57:28 and you can improve the way things are compiled without knowing too much 10:57:45 nikodemus: do you have a few minutes to talk in /msg / PM? It's been suggested a couple of times that I have a chat with you. 10:58:07 if you take it upon yourself to write a good docstring for deftransform, future generations will be in your debt, and existing sbcl hackers will probably provide much help 10:58:20 I imagine with a system that size you wind up with a lot of things that would be relatively easy to fix, but the sheer size makes it difficult to do them all 10:58:36 pr0x1mity_ [~Svetlana@cpe-98-149-170-255.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:51 nikodemus: just "1.1.2" 10:59:05 zvrba: almost certainly not the fork, then 10:59:08 brucem: sure 10:59:11 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:59:22 -!- pr0x1mity_ [~Svetlana@cpe-98-149-170-255.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [K-Lined] 10:59:22 ok 11:00:42 for what's is worth, I found that CCL is more reliable on windows than SBCL (fork or not) 11:01:25 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:02:06 maki``: more reliable as in..? 11:02:24 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:03:44 Mostly compatibility issues with libraries. Everything I tried just worked on CCL, while I had issues with some libraries on SBCL. 11:06:26 berry [~berry@37.244.165.4] has joined #lisp 11:06:48 -!- berry is now known as Guest37218 11:06:52 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 11:06:53 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:07:16 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:07:55 -!- Guest37218 is now known as berry2 11:08:03 what is a good free environment for programming in lisp? 11:08:10 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 11:08:17 berry2: emacs ! 11:10:28 does it support symbol completion etc? not for elisp 11:10:41 berry2: yes 11:11:14 berry2: add slime to emacs and enjoy yourself! 11:11:23 ^_^ 11:11:27 *_* 11:15:04 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:18:23 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:22:39 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:24:40 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:26 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.139.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:34:24 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:34:53 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.131.41] has joined #lisp 11:35:34 I have installed slime, but I am not getting symbol completion. I have tried both tab and M-I 11:36:15 have you done M-x slime 11:37:19 yes I have lisp repl running 11:37:25 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:37:27 berry2: (define-key slime-mode-map "\C-i" 'slime-indent-and-complete-symbol) into your .emacs, then [tab] will complete a symbol when point is at a symbol, otherwise it will indent the line 11:38:03 also make sure to use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in your .emacs 11:38:08 is the repl *inferior-lisp* or *slime-repl* ? 11:38:40 *inferior-lisp* 11:38:57 berry2: nothing substitutes the manual's reading! 11:39:31 -!- luqui [~luqui@71-218-21-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 11:39:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 11:42:30 zvrba: Common Lisp doesn't do pathname like everybody else, because everybody else is wrong. For example, POSIX paths are not strings. They are vectors of bytes excluding and 0, with 47 being the separator between "components". Common Lisp is specified in such a way as being able to work on non POSIX systems too. 11:42:50 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:47:40 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 11:50:56 pjb , i have even a human readble name linked to any file so a file is not a "string". :) 11:52:26 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-131-132.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:53:15 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.36.88] has joined #lisp 11:53:47 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:54:50 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 11:57:18 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:57:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:00:06 pnpuff: Try that: int main(){ char name[10]; int i; for(i=0;i<8;i++){name[i]=1+i;}name[9]=0; int fd=open(name,O_CREAT|O_WRONLY,0644); write(fd,"Hello\n",6); close(fd); return(0); } 12:00:41 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:01:05 pjb: ok, but maybe you need unlink to remove a file. 12:01:37 anyway this is OT here. 12:02:44 s/<8/<9/ 12:02:59 m| 12:03:07 pnpuff: Try that: int main(){ char name[10]; int i; for(i=0;i<9;i++){name[i]=1+i;}name[9]=0; int unlink(name); return(0); } 12:03:39 pnpuff: it is OT because the way CL is specified, there may be no way to access a POSIX file with such a name from CL. 12:04:24 m| :) 12:05:51 (code-char 1) may return NIL. Notice that eg. in ccl, (let ((cnt 0)) (dotimes (c char-code-limit cnt) (unless (code-char c) (incf cnt)))) --> 2050 12:06:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.190.112] has joined #lisp 12:06:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.190.112] has quit [Changing host] 12:06:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:06:59 And otherwise, physical pathname name strings are implementation dependant, so there may be no way to write a namestring corresponding to the byte sequence #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) that names that posix file. 12:08:47 -!- berry2 [~berry@37.244.165.4] has quit [Quit: berry2] 12:09:39 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:09:41 -!- isd [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:09:46 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-219-222.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:10:58 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 12:11:12 m|: they make you work all day but they don't pay you or let you go. :) 12:15:00 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:31 leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDB91AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:06 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:27:46 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-82-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:30:11 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-64-130.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:31:38 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:31:48 "handy" m| ^^ 12:35:28 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 12:37:17 bioevolgenec1 [~bioevolge@athedsl-4495533.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:38:10 RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-76-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 -!- RiskyBlit is now known as lpolzer 12:38:45 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:40:38 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.131.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:04 -!- maki`` [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 12:47:14 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 12:47:26 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 12:50:40 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:51:27 Using sbcl, I'm trying to STEP through a form in which some of the arguments have very long printed representations. When I enter the call, it hangs slimv for several seconds printing the object. Is there any way to shorten the output for such objects? 12:52:43 <|3b|> clhs *print-length* 12:52:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm 12:53:03 <|3b|> ^that and similar might help depending on type of object 12:53:10 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:16 that sounds perfect, thanks 12:53:23 <|3b|> (in particular doesn't work for bit arrays and strings) 12:53:34 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:02 <|3b|> though i seem to remember slime/swank having some places where it overrides printer variables, which might or might not affect slimv as well. no idea if stepper is one of those places or not 12:55:16 It seems to be working fine 12:56:10 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 12:56:27 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.45.13] has joined #lisp 12:56:49 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:42 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 12:59:49 There's *print-array* and *print-level* too. 13:00:00 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:31 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 13:01:48 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.45.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:02:26 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:32 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:03:22 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:14 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 13:04:58 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:06:10 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 13:09:49 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:01 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:28 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 13:18:59 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:01 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has left #lisp 13:19:07 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:27 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 13:23:42 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:00 stardanc3r [~tobias@dslb-178-007-044-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:29 nikodemus: while you're at it, can you look at http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.alexandria.devel/467 ? 13:38:45 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 13:39:00 amusingly i had just opened it :) 13:39:19 never thought about complex numbers there 13:39:54 i don't think anibody would use that, i was just trying to find flaws 13:40:49 i'd settle for applying the docstring fix for now 13:41:09 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.141.145] has joined #lisp 13:41:53 (alexandria:iota 5 :step 0.1) is bad too 13:42:13 no, wait, that's fine 13:42:15 bah 13:42:48 crap, my sbcl dead-locked again 13:42:57 and i can't figure how/when 13:44:50 hm, it's just the slime repl thread, can't figure why it doesn't want to evalute anymore, killing it and creating a new one worked 13:45:51 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:46:45 -!- agumonkey [~agu@240.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:47:19 -!- stardanc3r [~tobias@dslb-178-007-044-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:47:36 agumonkey [~agu@96.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:17 stassats: actually, i don't understand why (alexandria:iota 3 :start 0.0 :step #C(0 2)) return 0.0 as the first element 13:49:48 (+ 0.0 (- #C(0.0 2.0) #C(0.0 2.0))) returns #C(0.0 0.0) 13:49:49 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:50:42 oh, oh! 13:50:45 i see 13:52:35 am0c [~am0c@211.212.142.116] has joined #lisp 13:54:24 baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has joined #lisp 13:57:03 nikodemus: and the doc patch? 13:57:09 docstring 14:01:04 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.212.142.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:02:15 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:42 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:11:50 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 14:11:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 14:11:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:12:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:04 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 14:13:42 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.36.88] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:13:52 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.202.152] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 14:14:03 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.36.88] has joined #lisp 14:15:55 stassats: any built-in function for cadr of cadr? 14:16:29 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:19:53 stassats: nvm, cadadr 14:23:35 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 14:24:55 stassats: what doc patch? 14:25:13 nikodemus: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.alexandria.devel/467 the very first thing 14:25:16 found it 14:25:26 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:20 mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:54 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 14:34:44 dknight [~user@49.248.189.88] has joined #lisp 14:35:29 please suggest a good IDE for lisp practising. I am thinking of using SBCL. 14:35:37 dknight: slime 14:35:42 works well with SBCL 14:36:48 dknight: emacs + SLIME 14:38:19 dknight: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux 14:38:35 stassats, daimrod: okay 14:40:51 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 14:41:42 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:47:24 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:54 daimrod: what is quicklisp mentioned in that link? 14:49:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:54 -!- dknight [~user@49.248.189.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:57:26 minion: quicklisp? 14:57:26 quicklisp: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 14:57:41 *stassats* mumbles profanities 14:59:47 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:00:53 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:e2a0:d80f:39f1:9cee:78cf] has joined #lisp 15:05:39 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 15:07:01 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:21 dknight: quicklisp is an easy to use package manager for CL code. The mentioned slime-helper enables some slime features which most slime users keep enabled 15:07:29 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:41 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.141.145] has quit [Quit: mrdtt] 15:08:19 francogrex [~user@109.134.241.66] has joined #lisp 15:10:50 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.247] has joined #lisp 15:14:54 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:15:07 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:53 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.241.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:59 -!- fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@li215-129.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:42 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.204.136] has joined #lisp 15:17:53 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:21:58 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:13 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:25:30 if I modify part of CFFI binding, would just reloading it in quicklisp work? 15:25:42 or do I need to do something else? 15:25:50 freiksenet: nope, just reload. 15:26:36 freiksenet: how's the hackathon? 15:26:37 ok, thanks 15:26:54 freiksenet: you're welcome. 15:28:24 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:29:41 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB91AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:41 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDB91AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:31:52 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.247] has joined #lisp 15:32:44 johnzorn [~user@69.165.197.72] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:39:41 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:34 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:44:51 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:46:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:53 some_user [~user@h-236-129.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:49:19 Hey guys, I'm following this http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 to set up my ~/src/lisp/ folder for scanning for projects to load, however I stil get the "system not found" error when trying to load something that I know for sure is there (asd file and all). Any idea what I could do to find out what's wrong? 15:52:10 -!- prip_ [~foo@host213-126-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:52:40 -!- bioevolgenec1 [~bioevolge@athedsl-4495533.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:52:49 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 15:52:57 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:17 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:26 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB91AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:18 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:02:36 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 -!- burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:46 Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has joined #lisp 16:10:37 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:00 dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:15:53 Guest98435 [~user@cpc17-lewi14-2-0-cust594.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:07 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:24:30 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 16:26:05 ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has joined #lisp 16:27:17 masa9173 [~masa@79-82-ftth.on.nl] has joined #lisp 16:28:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:33 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 -!- jd__ [~jd@orion.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 16:33:17 leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDBAA82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:12 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB91AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:36:57 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 16:37:00 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:23 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:37:42 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:38:00 -!- masa9173 [~masa@79-82-ftth.on.nl] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:39:32 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.82.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:33 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:42:15 newblue [~newblue@113.84.205.153] has joined #lisp 16:46:13 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:48:04 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.204.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:16 hi 16:48:58 is there any xor operator that accept t and nil values? 16:50:13 Posterdati: (complement 'eql) 16:51:49 tx 16:56:56 hi. My Debian CCL package was being reviewed (by Julien Danjou) and in the course of doing so, he discovered 16:57:24 ? asdf:*central-registry* gives (#P"/home/faheem/quicklisp/quicklisp/") 16:57:54 did you forget to quote *default-pathname-defaults*? 16:58:12 I get the same result from the upstream binaries, and it seems possible it is coming from .ccl-init.lisp 16:58:26 stassats: don't follow, sorry 16:58:43 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 16:58:53 i don't follow you either 16:59:03 did he discover that you hardcoded your directory or what? 16:59:08 -!- davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:59:10 I have some quicklisp init stuff in there. it might have leaked into the binary 16:59:26 stassats: yes, when testing on his machines, he got (#P"/home/faheem/quicklisp/quicklisp/") 16:59:32 for ? asdf:*central-registry* 16:59:41 davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:44 so, i'm wondering what happened 17:00:19 quicklisp has in the ccl init file -> (let ((quicklisp-init (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname)))) 17:00:22 (when (probe-file quicklisp-init) 17:00:25 (load quicklisp-init))) 17:00:36 did you modify ccl? 17:00:47 which i assme is some standard thing. is it setting asdf:*central-registry*? 17:00:55 saved a different image? 17:00:56 stassats: you mean, patch it? no. 17:01:01 -!- some_user [~user@h-236-129.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:26 stassats: not sure what you mean. 17:01:49 i bet ccl image come with asdf already in it, so when you built it, that happened 17:01:56 the package he is testing is one i built, which includes a built ccl image 17:02:10 how did you build it? 17:02:10 comes, even 17:02:33 asdf isn't really designed to be moved from user to user as part of the image, i think 17:02:50 nikodemus: don't give Fare ideas! 17:02:52 stassats: i have a complicated rules file. are you a debian users? 17:02:58 faheem: i am 17:03:20 stassats: ok. in that case, is it ok if I point you to the rules file? it is online 17:03:27 it is 17:05:03 stassats: https://bitbucket.org/faheem/ccl-debian/src/tip/rules.m4?at=default 17:05:55 or just https://bitbucket.org/faheem/ccl-debian/src/tip/rules.m4 will work 17:06:21 nikodemus: i actually get the same result with sbcl 17:07:00 nikodemus: is it possible this comes from the quicklisp init in .sbclrc? 17:07:42 moved from user to user? 17:07:50 I don't understand what that means. 17:07:56 faheem: it sounds very much like you're building asdf into the image with your own .sbclrc loaded 17:08:05 nikodemus, welcome back! 17:08:27 nikodemus: ok. i assume this is a bad idea. can you tell me how to do it right? 17:08:28 Fare: never left, it's just my participation frequency is lower :) 17:08:31 faheem: can you add --no-init to the command line? 17:08:48 (for sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit) 17:08:49 stassats: ok, one sec 17:08:57 You mean, when you save an image, it doesn't clear its configuration? Now it does, in the soon-to-be-released 2.27! 17:09:13 at least, if you save and restore your image the asdf way. 17:09:43 ccl --no-init gives the same result 17:09:51 anyone used cl-zmq recently? seems to not work with zmq 3 at all 17:09:58 hang on, i'll try the upstream one 17:10:09 faheem: did you build that ccl with that process? 17:10:13 faheem, if you're not using asdf 2.27 yet, you can explicitly (asdf:clear-configuration) before you save your image. 17:10:36 it'd be much preferrable to not have any asdf loaded into the image 17:10:42 but better to save an image without asdf, if it's a general debian image. 17:11:09 stassats: yes 17:11:22 I for one support not preloading asdf. 17:11:22 stassats: i'm trying with the upstream ccl binary. one sec 17:11:34 I remember the bad old days of ASDF1 and C-L-C 17:11:53 when preloading was the only way to go, and you couldn't upgrade - gah! 17:12:06 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:e2a0:d80f:39f1:9cee:78cf] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:12:27 stassats: with upstream i get NIL 17:12:41 Fare: ok, i guess i can do that. 17:12:46 -!- Guest98435 [~user@cpc17-lewi14-2-0-cust594.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:13:06 at worst, (delete-package :asdf) is your friend 17:13:16 (tricky on sbcl if you've loaded any contrib) 17:13:31 the upstream imsage does not have asdf loaded by default 17:13:34 faheem: with upstream you should get an error, "ASDF package not found" 17:13:48 stassats that's correct 17:14:14 stassats: after loading asdf i get nil for asdf:*central-registry* 17:14:23 btw, has anyone looked at the new asdf/image functionality? 17:14:32 stassats: so, yes, i have to load asdf before anything happens 17:14:35 faheem: which asdf version is that? 17:14:48 what things need to happen? 17:14:59 ccl currently ships with asdf 2.26, as it should. 17:15:00 faheem: so, pass --no-init and make sure you build from a clean image 17:15:28 Fare: i don't know. how do i find out? i think ccl and sbcl have internal copies of asdf 17:15:36 stassats: ok 17:16:14 (asdf:asdf-version) 17:16:17 i think i have a separate Debian package of asdf as well, but i think (require 'asdf) loads the internal copies. is that right? 17:16:25 yes 17:16:30 and so it should 17:17:07 uh oh... which version is debian's asdf at? 17:17:10 Fare: i'm getting 2.20. 17:17:17 prip [~foo@host186-121-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:17:19 faheem: which ccl are you using? 17:17:31 2.20 is from a year ago. 17:17:41 is that ccl 1.8 ? 17:17:50 Fare: yes 17:17:51 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.46.246] has quit [Quit: zzz...] 17:17:59 ok 17:18:07 Fare: i think it must be the internal one. the debian version i have installed is 2.22 17:18:14 I hope I release 2.27 *before* ccl releases 1.9 17:18:30 I remember publishing 2.25 for debian. 17:18:30 Fare: i'm packaging the stable release. i assume that is what debian would prefer 17:18:48 I ought to publish a 2.26 .deb... though hopefully 2.27 will be out next week. 17:18:52 Fare: 2.24 is in unstable. i have not upgraded 17:19:00 not 2.25? 17:19:16 Fare: 2.24 is the most current. one sec 17:19:27 anyway, you should NOT have any dependency from ccl to cl-asdf. 17:19:43 Fare: yes, 2.24. see http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/cl-asdf.html 17:19:49 I'll publish a 2.27 .deb next week hopefully. 17:20:14 Fare: so, starting with a --no-init should work perhaps. 17:20:30 faheem: do you have the rights to push it to unstable, if I put it on mentors.debian.net ? 17:20:39 should, definitely 17:20:43 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:10 yes, it looks like the /home/faheem/quicklisp/quicklisp/ is coming from the init file 17:21:17 stassats: thanks. i'll try with --no-init. 17:21:40 Fare: no, i have no rights on Debian, but you could ask one of the Debian CL people. 17:22:11 Fare: though they are all pretty inactive at the moment 17:22:21 Fare: Julien might do it if you ask him. 17:22:32 yeah well, if they didn't push my 2.25 from 3 months ago... 17:22:42 I'll ask next week for 2.27 17:22:43 Julien Danjou 17:22:48 Fare: ^^ 17:23:15 thanks 17:24:01 Fare: who uploaded the 2.24? The only name there is what i assume is yours, namely 17:24:12 Changed-By: Francois-Rene Rideau 17:24:50 dunno. One of the uploaders, maybe? 17:25:15 Fare: ok. 17:25:37 That was in 2012-09-03. It's been a while 17:25:53 bioevolgenec1 [~bioevolge@athedsl-4520117.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:25:59 Fare: thanks for your help. i'll try rebuilding ccl now. 17:26:05 stassats: thanks as well. 17:26:12 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:26:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:27:07 looks like Christoph Egger pushed 2.24 to unstable. 17:27:44 Fare: ok. he is one of the two people who seem to be active on the team 17:27:45 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:55 the other is Peter Van Eynde 17:28:11 I know Peter. 17:28:37 -!- baotiao [~baotiao@119.161.178.28] has quit [Quit: baotiao] 17:32:08 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-134-170.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:41:13 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:00 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:53:31 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:14 the debian version of slime is also quite old 17:54:30 1:20120525-2 17:54:43 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:53 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-134-170.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:57:47 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:58:28 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:59:14 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:01:32 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.247] has left #lisp 18:09:20 -!- newblue [~newblue@113.84.205.153] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:34 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:12:10 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:43 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:15:14 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:19:31 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:20:14 arrk13 [~arrakis24@dslb-188-109-195-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:27 hello 18:20:44 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.55] has joined #lisp 18:20:45 faheem: ... that's... less than a year old? Debian is slipping :D 18:21:56 when I use a library with a long, unwieldy package name like com.domain.my-package-subpackage-name, but i do not want to completely import it into my namespace, but just... 18:22:12 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:22:20 but to just use it occasionaly like a:do-this, a:do-that, how can i locally rename the package? 18:22:43 i know that i can nickname a package, but only when i define it, how can i nickname it when i just use it? 18:22:52 (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility :util) 18:22:59 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 Of course, you can also do: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package :p) (p:add-nickname :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility :util) 18:24:00 If you have a lot of nicknames to add. 18:25:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:08 is this your library? is it aavailable through quicklisp? 18:26:26 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:34 Yes. Yes. 18:26:55 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) 18:27:02 nice. this is exactly what i was looking for, thanks. 18:28:37 arrk13: I just use conduits, also from QL 18:28:42 (and not GPLed :P) 18:29:27 p_l 18:29:28 Just AGPL3 your code. Don't be selfish. 18:29:54 p_l: packages in debian aren't necessarily old. just stable is. usually. 18:30:17 pjb: or you could hang yourself... 18:30:30 Right, I might just do that. 18:30:35 how did they determine stability of slime? 18:30:42 it was more general than *you*! :P 18:31:04 pjb: actually, AGPL3 counts as extortion. Unselfish is public domain 18:31:12 oh no 18:31:16 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:18 ... oh fuck 18:31:22 EOT from me, sorry 18:31:27 p_l: there are circles. AGPL3 is for the users, not for the developers. 18:31:53 pjb: it is not for the user either. BSD is much nicer to its users. it allows them to extend and use it without limitations. 18:32:16 bitonic [~user@b0fc93a2.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:29 Try to extend and use without limitations iOS or Xcode, or etc. 18:32:31 or wait, i take that back! it has never been said, we'll head back to lisp 18:36:06 it seems slime does not do releases. is there some reason for that? 18:36:57 there's no reason to do releases 18:37:36 stassats: there isn't? 18:38:12 that's right 18:38:27 as long as all commits to git have passed the tests. 18:38:31 stassats: any shorter way for (cadr (caddr *list*))? 18:38:40 zolk3ri: why are you asking me? 18:38:46 cuz you are pro. 18:38:49 zolk3ri: Sure. 18:38:55 i'm not the only one here 18:38:59 pjb: tell me 18:39:01 stassats: ok 18:39:10 oh sorry stassats, I haven't noticed 18:39:11 drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:12 zolk3ri: tell me what your list contains and what you're getting? 18:40:13 so slime passes all tests on every commit, and is always usable? 18:40:26 faheem: yep, unless it isn't 18:40:39 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 stassats: ok. 18:41:58 why not use a stable branch in git, instead of versions? 18:42:07 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:42:20 why bother to do anything? 18:43:38 Fare: nice blog. 18:43:59 stilluntrusted [~user@stgt-5f71a756.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:32 faheem, any post in particular? 18:45:04 Fare: i liked "Of Fred and his countless Likes" 18:45:16 though most of it is not actually written by you. :-) 18:46:34 :) 18:47:35 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134912 <- the last one (cdaddr) is almost good, except it still shows (EIGHTH NINTH) and I want to get EIGHTH. Sure, (cadr (caddr *list)) works, but how about some cadadadadadr crap? 18:48:32 You can define a function named cadadadadadr. 18:48:51 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:08 lool nah I was just wondering whether there is a built-in where I can get the eighth one with. 18:50:17 But assuming your list is used to represent a car, and that the fourth element is used to store the seats, and you want the driver seat, the instead of (cadr (caddr *list*)), it would be much better to write (driver-seat (car-seats *car*)). 18:50:42 zolk3ri: sure. It's called: EIGHTH. 18:51:38 yeah, but it's not the eighth one actually :P I'll just keep using (car (cdaddr *list*)) then 18:52:13 If you are working with lists, you may also consider nth, nthcdr, elt, in addition to first .. tenth. 18:52:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:53:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:55:11 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:00 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:59:39 Fare: Sorry, my awful connection crapped out. Anyway, very eloquent. Is this the same person as http://www.piermont.com/blog/ ? 18:59:52 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 19:00:27 -!- bioevolgenec1 [~bioevolge@athedsl-4520117.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:49 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 bitonic` [~user@027b72d2.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:01 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134912#1 <- is the naming correct? I wonder. 19:03:09 yup 19:03:51 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fc93a2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:03:59 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 19:04:23 zolk3ri, destructuring-bind is your friend 19:04:24 Fare: does he have a more recent blog? this one only has posts from 2004 19:04:26 or optima:match 19:04:44 faheem: not that I know of. But he's somewhat active on facebook. 19:04:54 do you live around NYC? 19:05:04 Fare: ok. i hate facebook, though 19:05:15 Fare: me? No. currently in Bombay, India. Ugh. 19:05:30 Fare: i just saw your sb-c::foo usage in SBCL 19:05:31 he sometimes posts on g+ 19:05:40 sb-c::foo ? 19:05:42 Fare: ok 19:05:42 that's ... not funny 19:05:57 nikodemus, what isn't? 19:06:12 sb-c::, that is in current asdf. it will break 19:06:23 nikodemus, please offer a solution that won't. 19:07:28 Fare: have you sent email to sbcl-devel explaining that you need? 19:07:34 s/that/what/ 19:08:04 we might not be able to, but we'd still like to try to provide supported apis whenever possible 19:08:29 IIRC in PCL there's a macro that looks for C[AD]R symbols in its BODY and defines the corresponding functions. 19:08:34 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:07 (and when it breaks, if asdf in contrib/ is new enough, we will obviously fix it, but if the fix is non-trivial we will just remove the offending parts of asdf from our copy, or do something equally drastic accompanied by a childlike temper tantrum) 19:10:44 zolk3ri: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134912#2 19:11:09 flip214: I think it's in LoL not PCL. 19:11:10 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:18 in the version we have in the tree currently, 2.26, there are no internal symbols used for sbcl, and i for one would very much like to keep it that way 19:11:42 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:11:51 I opened https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1106268 19:11:55 daimrod: possibly. I just remember having it seen somewhere, in one of the books I've read. 19:12:18 nikodemus, there is plenty of find-symbol of symbols in SB-EXT and SB-INT. 19:12:52 i just can't see why this deferred warnings thing should exist... 19:12:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134915 <- How can this be improved? 19:13:01 -!- drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:12 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:13 stassats, then don't argue with people who do. 19:13:32 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.55] has joined #lisp 19:13:37 shit 19:13:41 sb-ext is fine 19:13:46 some discussion of it in https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/507378 19:13:48 sb-int externals are almost fine 19:14:02 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134912#3 <- I get "The variable FIRST is defined but never used." style warning, any ideas? 19:14:16 is you need something from sb-int, please tell us -- we can probably move it to sb-ext 19:14:37 anything unexported is a timebomb 19:15:06 well, I opened a bug above. Hopefully it gets resolved before the bomb explodes. 19:15:28 ASDF constantly needs to peek at internals of this or that implementation 19:15:31 SBCL isn't magical. 19:15:49 zolk3ri: you can put (declare (ignore first)) after *list* 19:16:15 ASDF has plenty of #+thiscl and #-thatcl 19:16:17 of course not. but we do like refactoring our internals 19:16:41 refactoring our internals is practically raison d'etre for sbcl :) 19:16:53 and I'll update ASDF to use the new internals when there are new internals -- hopefully you will directly export the functionality we need. 19:17:09 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:17:15 well, I just massively refactored the internals of ASDF. So there. 19:17:38 What do you want me to do? Remove that feature? Won't do. I need it. 19:17:39 daimrod: what if I want to ignore it in destructuring-bind only? (at least for now) 19:17:44 ohhh nvm 19:18:04 daimrod: ok works, thanks 19:18:18 Make it conditional on umpteen find-symbols? Could do, if worth it. 19:19:01 Hopefully, SBCL will export the three functions I need instead. 19:19:02 i don't care about that feature. i'm only telling you that using internals is going to break sooner or later. and when it breaks, the fix we will apply will be the simplest thing that works 19:19:16 I care about that feature 19:19:18 s/care about/care about removing or not removing/ 19:19:33 you're telling me it will break - so it will. Then what? 19:20:05 I know what I'm getting into. 19:20:08 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:20:12 fine, then 19:20:25 Now if you want to be helpful, exporting thr 19:20:30 ee functions would be nice. 19:20:45 there appears to be a surprising lack of consesnsus in ASDF development, a tool on which many people depend, and yet it consistely manages to break all expectations 19:21:07 stassats, there is plenty of consensus with all people who care to voice opinions 19:21:17 Fare, stassats: the --no-init thing worked, thanks. 19:21:18 if you don't voice opinions, your opinions won't be heard. 19:21:22 -!- stilluntrusted [~user@stgt-5f71a756.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 19:21:27 i've just had enough crap from people using internals and then complaining when they change -- especially when those people don't even bother describing the api they would like to have. (not talking about you) 19:21:29 my only choice is to not use ASDF past 2.26 version 19:21:35 hence my reaction 19:22:20 nikodemus, I'm not going to complain. I know I'm using internals. I did file a bug. I'll probably add extensive docstrings to these three API functions. 19:22:31 so the contract with implementations is easier. 19:22:44 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.52.76] has left #lisp 19:22:59 stassats, then don't complain if 2.27 has features you don't like. 19:23:22 stassats, and/or if/when your implementation includes ASDF 2.27 and now you have to downgrade 19:23:25 that just means that i will be unable to use software which depends on newer ASDF 19:23:42 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.32] has joined #lisp 19:23:43 stassats, what's wrong about 2.27 ? 19:23:53 and I don't mean temporary breakage during development 19:24:08 I mean with the code and features I intend to actually release 19:24:33 stassats, hopefully by next year everyone will be using features from 2.27. 19:25:45 it became even more complicated, so i don't trust that it won't break 19:25:51 -!- asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-knqnifusqzdquxdf] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:40 worstadmin_ [~worst@174.141.213.33] has joined #lisp 19:26:47 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:41 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:52 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 19:29:17 Fare: re. your feature request: as far as i understand you want to serialize and deserialize conditions. which ones? doesn't MAKE-LOAD-FORM-SAVING-SLOTS work? 19:29:35 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:30:59 -!- danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has left #lisp 19:31:06 drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:47 danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has joined #lisp 19:33:03 might be better than nothing. 19:33:21 Ideally, the reified form is readable from any Lisp, not just SBCL. 19:33:27 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:33:48 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 I suppose I could weaken this assumption. 19:35:18 stassats, you're ridiculous. I fix umpteen actual breakage, add plenty of tests, and now you fear that maybe it will break, when it has actually been demonstrated to be less broken on important and essential features? 19:36:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:36:44 Fare: expecting to be able to reify a condition from one lisp into another sounds like madness to me 19:37:01 sure, you can get it to work for some subset -- but... eugh 19:37:04 no. To read the expression. 19:37:11 not reify the condition. 19:37:11 i just don't believe that such kind of complexity can be kept inside one person's head, there's so many shims and fixes for implementations, that whenever a change is made, one can't be sure that it won't affect something unexpectedly 19:37:21 what kind of complexity? 19:37:47 stassats, that's what the test suite is for. It has saved my ass more than once. 19:38:03 the test suite doesn't make sure there's no bugs 19:38:06 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 and that's also what introducing abstraction layers is for -- so that shims and fixes are contained. 19:38:31 no. That's what a maintainer is for. Fixing bugs and adding new tests. 19:38:35 ASau [~user@46.115.52.76] has joined #lisp 19:38:52 If you love the old bugs, you can keep the old version indeed. 19:39:00 :) 19:39:06 You could also use LISP 1.5, it's been around for longer. 19:39:17 or at least mk-defsystem. 19:39:35 I think that load files are sturdier, though. 19:40:08 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has left #lisp 19:40:56 But hey -- tell me where asdf is being more "complex" than any previous piece of software having the same functionality. 19:41:03 or how 2.27 is more complex than 2.26 19:41:26 actually, 2.27 is much SIMPLER than 2.26. 19:42:31 reductio ad unum! 19:42:40 if you compare 2.27 to say asdf 2.26 plus contemporary asdf-bundle, xcvb-driver, etc. 19:43:21 the source code is much more readable -- nay, the source code is now readable where it wasn't. 19:43:41 there are also more docstrings and comments. The code is divided into subfiles in a way that makes sense. 19:44:19 more abstractions have been factored out, shielding readers from many implementation-specific "shims and fixes". 19:44:37 why does it have its own package system now? 19:44:55 it doesn't. 19:45:00 it uses the CL package system. 19:45:09 it has its own define-package to ensure hot upgrade 19:45:57 Fare: what is this 'hot upgrade'? 19:46:02 -!- mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has left #lisp 19:46:04 hot upgrade has always been an essential part of ASDF 2. The one without which each implementation would have an incompatible ASDF and no way to upgrade, no incentive to get bugs fixed. 19:46:20 prxq: (1) load an old asdf (2) load a new asdf on top of it. 19:46:41 (3) load software 19:47:02 Fare: ok, but iirc, loading a new version of some software is universally supported. 19:47:13 see my original post about it: http://fare.livejournal.com/149264.html 19:47:19 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-47.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:47:19 prxq: no it's not. 19:47:38 why do people load old asdf in the first place? 19:47:43 does anyone know of a working CL YAML implementation? I see a cl-yaml, but it looks dead. 19:47:44 defpackage will issue plenty of errors. your old methods will mess with your new ones. 19:48:06 your lisp will complain that the signature of a function has changed when the new/old function is generic. 19:48:13 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09781f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:29 stassats: (load "SYS:CONTRIB;ASDF;ASDF.FASL") 19:48:42 your data structures will be in unusable state by lack of update-instance-for-redefined-class methods. 19:48:51 ie. because SBCL is pretty agressive about loading the version of ASDF it ships with 19:49:11 it appears now that ASDF is reguarly updated in SBCL 19:49:12 stassats, because that's what comes with their implementation or software distribution (C-L-C 19:49:31 that wasn't the case before ASDF 2. 19:49:35 asdf is basically a part of the implementation. people do not always have the luxury of using the latest implementation version (not to mention motivation, CL being a stable language and all). thus the need for asdf to transparently patch itself, if I understand correctly. makes sense. 19:49:40 and that certainly wasn't the case for other implementations. 19:50:04 Once again, see my old post for a full explanation http://fare.livejournal.com/149264.html 19:50:12 (this would be much less of an issue if what bit was conditional on "we already have an ASDF from somewhere") 19:50:51 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:50:56 wouldn't sbcl load its own ASDF if there's one already loaded, load it first thing in .sbclrc 19:51:08 wouldn't sbcl not load, that is 19:51:42 IIRC, no. could be i'm wrong 19:51:59 jockej [~joakim@dyna226-220.csc.kth.se] has joined #lisp 19:52:17 never tried to do that 19:56:05 i wonder how much of friction re. asdf changes comes from very different use cases 19:57:28 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:57:29 nikodemus, no it wouldn't, unless you also had a "this asdf is old enough" mechanism, which was also one of the innovations leading to asdf 2. 19:57:59 "something for personal use", "library for public consumption", "giant application" all need very different things 19:58:06 and even then, it won't help you if asdf says "no, it's not old enough" and upgrade is impossible 19:58:08 then you lose. 19:58:35 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:58:44 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:49 hm, s/giant/deliverable/, actually 19:59:09 oh, asdf 2.27 also takes care of delivery 19:59:42 with program-op, you can create executable programs on clisp, clozure, cmucl, ecl, sbcl, lispworks 20:00:32 really? that sounds cool 20:00:41 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 Fare: stand-alone executable? including the image? 20:02:23 yes 20:02:30 on supported implementations only 20:02:38 with mandatory backdoor on unpatched clisp 20:03:25 Fare: sounds interesting. There is currently no portable way to do this, that I am aware of. 20:03:36 yes, there is cl-launch, that I also wrote. 20:03:44 I lifted code from cl-launch into asdf/image 20:04:12 the new cl-launch requires a new asdf. 20:04:41 Fare: yes, forgot about cl-launch. 20:05:04 i've never tried it. i think maybe i found it hard to understand or complicated 20:05:24 well, the cl-launch innards ARE hard. the interface not so much. 20:05:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:13 maybe I should change the shell options semantics to be "do these in order" rather than lisp-like keyword-argument semantics. 20:07:08 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:14 Fare: i think i found buildapp easy to use. but that is sbcl specific 20:07:28 i forget details, it has been a while 20:07:41 zajn [~zajn@129.8.204.123] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 I don't think cl-launch is hard to use, but I'm biased. 20:08:49 it definitely was hard to write... "an exercise in useful quining" 20:09:33 Fare: i'm sure it was 20:10:36 crap, now my disk is full of .sbcl-warnings 20:12:22 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:27 I am currently working on some javascript stuff and got started thinking about why I always liked working with it since I am not a frontend programmer and I just realized is because the opportunity to be able to test/run/modify stuff in the browser consoles (besides other things, like flexibility) 20:12:36 interactive programming rules. 20:13:10 sorry about that, is not about lisp by itself, but is something I like about Lisp as well 20:13:26 stassats, hopefully, most of them are empty files. 20:14:02 why are they besides source files? VCS are not happy 20:14:11 ebobby, have you tried kernel? 20:14:22 stassats, because you're using ABL 20:14:34 I will update the ABL compatibility layer. 20:14:35 i really need to write a cronjob to clean ~/.cache/common-lisp... >1Gb again 20:14:40 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:14:40 thanks for telling me abou it 20:15:04 Fare: no, what is that? 20:15:06 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 20:15:10 can i disable this sbcl-warnings business completely? 20:15:14 ngz [~user@77.235.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:38 sorry, I meant that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lively_Kernel 20:20:06 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-141-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:20:08 stassats: not currently, but if you insist, I can add a flag for that. 20:20:20 what's wrong about it? 20:20:44 i don't need, it spews output i don't need at me 20:21:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:21:24 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:46 how come iolib compiles something each time i load it? 20:23:16 something related to groveller 20:23:37 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 20:24:38 i'd seen some strangeness with iolib as well. iirc it cause alexandria to be recompiled and reloaded, or something along those lines. i forget 20:25:06 "Groveler ASDF integration: import new build system from CFFI" commit is to blame 20:26:09 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.158.168] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 stassats: you need asdf 2.27 for that 20:26:46 bummer 20:27:10 does anyone have an example of an ugly sbcl backtrace handy? 20:27:17 (or rather the code that causes it) 20:27:22 I'm surprised it even works on older ASDF 20:27:28 nikodemus: how ugly? 20:28:27 hard to read in one way or another 20:28:54 nikodemus: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/503081 20:30:01 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-140-71.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:56 nikodemus: isn't this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309079 fixed? 20:31:12 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:31:49 i guess it just shows "undefined function" instead of "bogus stack frame" now 20:32:02 thanks 20:32:11 what's interesting, if run it twice, on the second try it has 0: (SYMBOL-FUNCTION FOOF) 20:33:02 random crap from stack, i suspect 20:33:10 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 20:33:19 we should be more careful about cleaning unused parts of frames 20:33:59 nikodemus: another one https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/726774 20:34:34 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:32 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:37:19 thanks. mostly these are unfortunetely of different order than i was looking for -- i'm trying to clean up my early prettier backtraces stuff which is mostly about just presentation 20:37:34 ie. no new information or bugfixes mixed in :/ 20:37:38 i wouldn't mind if you fixed those too! 20:38:34 that :X NIL is really strange 20:39:11 i suspect that function arguments confuse the poor debuger 20:39:26 "This is because "hairy" (non-constant) default parameters are discarded so that they're not evaluated twice:" 20:39:46 teaches me to scroll :) 20:39:49 stassats, in 2.26.147, I both enhance ABL compatibility to redirect those warnings files, and allow you to manually disable them. 20:40:19 the pcl one i might actually manage to improve 20:40:54 should even show the defaults as supplied? 20:41:09 nikodemus, note that for my bug, you could "just" lift my current implementations. 20:41:29 srid [uid3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uioucfqnjqceqwuq] has joined #lisp 20:41:33 -!- srid [uid3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uioucfqnjqceqwuq] has left #lisp 20:42:32 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 20:43:49 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 stassats, do you care about being shown undefined-function warnings? if you do, then those warnings files are your friends. 20:44:38 i do care about them during compilation, not loading 20:44:53 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.202.222] has joined #lisp 20:44:56 they only are used during compilation. 20:45:05 but they ARE used during compilation. 20:45:17 why does it need a file then? 20:45:40 how else will it know whether there were warnings from files compiled in previous sessions? 20:45:43 telepathy? 20:45:49 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:46:10 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 in session 1, compile file A, B. 20:46:20 modify B 20:46:25 in session 2, compile file B. 20:46:33 why do i need to know about warnings in the previous compilation? 20:46:39 well you want your warnings from file A in session 2, don't you? 20:46:58 because that's the way to be warned if your system is missing functions called in file A. 20:47:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:47:08 absolutely not, i'm not compiling it 20:47:38 you're compiling the system 20:47:50 if you're loading the system and not compiling it, the warnings won't show. 20:48:01 when i want to see all the warnings, i recompile the whole thing 20:48:10 by definition, a compilation unit is around several files. 20:48:27 I don't, and my users don't. 20:48:44 which users? 20:48:48 we only save the *deferred* warnings of file A. 20:49:02 a few tens of hackers at ITA. 20:49:31 the local warnings of file A won't show the second time, either. 20:50:19 when you understand why the warnings are deferred, you'll understand why we save them. 20:50:25 i thought i understood it, now i don't anymore 20:50:48 they are deferred to the end of W-C-U 20:51:09 but because there are multiple sessions, there are multiple ends to W-C-U. Multiple continuations. 20:51:25 And so we must restore these warnings in each continuation. 20:51:29 which implies saving them. 20:52:15 but if you don't care for these warnings at all, you can push the relevant condition to *uninteresting-compiler-conditions* 20:52:20 if i remove a function from the file B and recompile it in the second session, it won't signal any warnings from the file A using an undefined function, will it? 20:52:37 or, with 2.26.147, you can (setf asdf:*warnings-file-type* nil) 20:53:12 assuming the function is called in file A, in 2.26 it won't warn in the second session, but in 2.27 it will. 20:53:30 how? 20:53:36 -!- bitonic [~user@027b72d2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:49 by saving the deferred warning about the function being undefined! 20:54:04 if the file B had this function and was compiled first, there won't be any warnings when you compile A after in the same file 20:54:08 in the same image 20:54:41 hellooo 20:55:21 ups sorry 20:55:27 oh, if file A is *after* file B, then if it will be recompiled when B is recompiled, assuming there's a dependency. 20:55:41 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 20:55:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:04 bitonic [~user@027b72d2.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:07 so why is A not recompiled in your example, why doesn't it have a dependency? 20:56:17 you declare the dependencies 20:56:26 I'm not going to do that for you. 20:56:30 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:56:35 if you forget one, the bug is yours, not mine. 20:56:45 heh 20:56:53 but now i am confused because i don't know when the warnings are shown 20:57:21 in 2.26, there's a W-C-U around the whole asdf:operate, and the warnings are shown at the very end 20:57:31 "i think, oh, since it usually resignals any warnings, and now there's no warnings, i don't need to add any dependencies or whole recompiles or anything" 20:58:04 in 2.27 on supported implementations (CCL, SBCL), there's a virtual W-C-U around each system, and the warnings are shown by the perform of compile-op on the system. 20:58:37 i now have acquired a false sense of security that this warning resignal thing has my back, but it actually doesn't 20:58:45 so, i'm better of just disabling it 20:59:00 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:19 there is a case where warnings may disappear, but that's a conceptual bug in ASDF that can only be solved by XCVB: when there's no dependency from A on B, but B happens to be loaded before A anyway, and A fails to warn. 21:00:27 so you used to have 25% security, I offer you 75%, but you'll go back to 25% because that's not 100%, even though my 75% cover all the cases of the previou 25% ??? 21:00:51 excuse me, but that's nuts. 21:01:07 absolutely, because i know a way to get 100% security 21:01:08 I mean, I'm the first one who'll diss ASDF here. 21:01:21 you can still get the same way 21:01:28 it still works. 21:01:37 any percent is still a percent, so it may as well be absent 21:01:38 load-system foo :force t 21:04:47 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:06:15 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:23 Fare: Invalid asdf output-translation (((:ROOT #P"**/" #P"*.fasl") ("/tmp/fasls/" :IMPLEMENTATION #P"**/" #P"*.fasl")) ((:ROOT #P"**/" #P"*.cfasl") ("/tmp/fasls/" :IMPLEMENTATION #P"**/" #P"*.cfasl")) ((:ROOT #P"**/" #P"*.sbcl-warnings") ("/tmp/fasls/" :IMPLEMENTATION #P"**/" #P"*.sbcl-warnings"))) 21:06:35 oops, I had a , instead of a ,@ 21:06:46 *maxm* unminimized #lisp window, and spent tons of mental effort to parse what Fare is saying, and i actually agree with him 21:07:03 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:07:09 thanks for testing 21:07:55 press a button -> wipes a bottom principle, requires that if I'm in the zone compiling stuff, changing things around and such, its helpful that F7 (my compile last system key), would show that some function is now missing while it was not before 21:08:14 and now with 2.26.148? 21:08:19 I can always C-c C-k or C-c C-c to just compile file manually when I need to patch things locally 21:08:40 if that fails again, I'll add a test of the ABL compatibility layer in the test-suite. 21:08:44 hi maxm :) 21:08:46 but i had not tested it, /me had not upgraded in months actually, as I now run production stuff on my code 21:09:16 these days you have to run to just keep in place in seems.. My suse is obsolete again, there is new glibc, my phone is apparently a relic and such 21:09:31 I, for one, am quite happy with how asdf 2.27 has turned up 21:09:42 lots of useful new features 21:10:20 fe[nl]ix, thanks 21:10:48 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:04 maxm: which suse ? 21:11:17 graceful day today.. 21:11:17 Fare: so, why do i see two WARNING: Lisp compilation failed while completing compilation for # one after another? 21:11:19 11.4 here 21:11:20 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:35 have to compile most new rpms manually 21:11:42 eh, i take that back 21:11:51 because closure-html issues warnings? 21:12:02 the second one is WARNING: Lisp compilation had style-warnings while completing compilation for # 21:12:02 let me try to compile it here... 21:12:31 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:12:33 why is there a warning for style-warnings? 21:13:05 because *compile-file-warnings-behaviour* is :warn 21:13:06 warning that there been style-warnings things been there forever i think 21:13:21 you can set it to :ignore if you prefer. 21:13:23 stassats: have a fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/503081 21:13:31 i'm done for today 21:13:43 but yes, this default should NOT have changed since 2.26, or ASDF 1, for the matter. 21:14:23 nikodemus, good night! 21:14:30 why is *compile-file-warnings-behaviour* is :error on sbcl, and :warn on everything else? 21:14:49 you mean *compile-file-failure-behaviour* ? 21:14:55 yes 21:14:58 stassats: I get this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2W3V 21:15:00 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:01 that's also a default from back with ASDF 1. 21:15:11 stassats: historically at least because other's didn't implement tertiary return value of compile-file properly 21:15:14 SBCL has a different interpretation of failure than most. 21:15:20 SBCL in general is more anal. 21:15:23 others, even 21:15:37 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16:01 the spec is pretty clear: "The tertiary value, failure-p, is false if no conditions of type error or warning (other than style-warning) were detected by the compiler, and true otherwise." 21:16:01 nikodemus, just you try to argue SBCL's interpretation with the CLISP folks... 21:17:11 but some implementations (i have no recollection of the details, iirc danb went to some detail about them) decided some warnings (not style-warnings) didn't merit a failure-p and some style-warnings did 21:17:45 CLISP is the worst offender, IIRC. 21:18:00 sbcl does some controversial things, but i never expected tertiary return value of compile-file to be one of them 21:18:14 Fare: even in -ansi mode ? 21:18:15 in any case, this is stuff that clearly belongs to an abstraction layer around compile-file. 21:18:19 huh, asdf now even compiles things slower... 21:18:36 oh, right, I noticed that too 21:18:39 forgot about it 21:18:47 does it? interesting. How so? 21:18:50 mind, i can perfectly understand "it's the way we've always done things" as a rationale -- but arguing that it's the right thing seems strange 21:18:53 you tell me! 21:19:05 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:08 what is your benchmark? 21:19:15 fe[nl]ix, you noticed a slowdown, too? 21:19:23 loading something large 21:19:39 Fare: right before starting to load a system, something seems to have gone from O(n) to O(n^2) 21:19:42 57.8 seconds vs 80.9 seconds 21:19:44 I wonder if it's lack of caching for input-files and output-files. 21:20:35 these functions get called *a lot*. 21:20:47 and the output is visually more slow 21:21:16 I'll investigate. 21:21:19 thanks for noticing. 21:21:24 Fare: my test case is reloading iolib without any compilation 21:21:46 the slowdown is between one system and another 21:21:53 consing is up from 11,447,196,032 to 17,439,319,440 21:21:54 well, if iolib now requires 2.27, I can't benchmark 2.26 with it. 21:22:26 consing is probably up during compilation due to the warnings thing. 21:22:29 225,960 forms interpreted versus previous 65,111 forms interpreted 21:22:37 more calls to output-files could do it, too. 21:22:53 what does "interpreted" cover here? 21:22:58 how do i disable deferal again? 21:23:02 I'll blame lack of output-files caching. 21:23:12 Fare: you can revert to 6b3a3bbf96 21:23:20 stassats: (setf asdf:*warnings-file-type* nil) 21:23:29 let's try with it 21:23:31 fe[nl]ix, that's an iolib commit number? 21:23:38 yes 21:23:41 ok 21:23:46 I'll create a branch 21:24:14 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:26:15 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:52 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable107.197-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:30:54 stassats: Oh stassats, why won't you start a twitter account. I really miss your insights and jokes, but I don't have time to read the #lisp logs. :( 21:31:04 -!- zajn [~zajn@129.8.204.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:14 because twitter is stupid! 21:31:19 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:23 You could make it less stupid! 21:31:33 not with that character limit 21:31:52 You don't have to compress into 140 characters that which cannot be compressed into 140 characters. 21:32:20 awesome tautology 21:32:26 There's a good subset of interesting things that can be said that can be said in 140 characters. And you can point to a blogpost as needed. 21:39:52 I'm writing a Common Lisp compiler with a core written in C++. I've mirrored the CL type hierarchy as C++ types and I implemented the value "nil" by creating a "nil" object for every C++ class that is exposed to Common Lisp. So in effect I have hundreds of "nil" values rather than just one. I had to do this so that I can assign "nil" to any C++ statically typed variable. Using template programming every nil == e 21:39:52 drmeister, memo from ogamita: the calling convention is basically simple in CL: fixed arity only. What you can do, is to add a mandatory rest argument to functions that have &optional, &rest or &key, and cons a list of those optional argument in the callee to be passed in this mandatory rest argument. The function can then parse this list (as it shoudl, semantically). Anything else is actually speed optimization: you said you didn't 21:39:52 very other nil. 21:39:52 drmeister, memo from ogamita: really need that. 21:40:30 Hexstream: stassats does jokes? 21:40:45 *maxm* re-evaluates his #lisp experience 21:40:47 maxm: i only tell them to your mom 21:41:20 I putting this out there to solicit any thoughts from experienced CL users. Having multiple "nil" types seems wrong and impacts performance. 21:41:42 indeed. 21:42:46 hey 21:42:52 quick question 21:42:57 drmeister: but why do you need that? 21:43:02 First law of IRC: don't ask to ask. 21:43:04 when i have something printed and it looks like this: 21:43:06 #P"/opt/maven/lib/commons-cli-1.2.jar" 21:43:11 is that a string? 21:43:12 That's a pathname. 21:43:19 whats #p? 21:43:29 how do i get string out of it? 21:43:33 milosn: it is not a string. It is an object of type PATHNAME 21:43:38 ah 21:43:48 how do you get string out of it? 21:43:49 NAMESTRING 21:44:03 Note that the result is implementation-dependent. 21:44:08 (namestring my-pathname)? 21:44:13 Try it! 21:44:17 ok thanks 21:44:19 ill try 21:44:48 milosn: it is a good idea to stay away from pathnames while you are learning, and probably afterwards too. 21:44:54 prxq: So that I can say things like "Fixnum_sp x = Fixnum_O::_nil;" and "Cons_sp cur = Cons_O::_nil;". "Fixnum_O::_nil" and "Cons_O::_nil" are instances of the Fixnum_O and Cons_O classes. 21:45:04 object of type pathname, I mean. 21:45:11 its not me, i am playing with ABCL and some function gives me pathnames 21:45:48 prxq: Life is easier with at least a working knowledge of pathnames. 21:46:01 Hexstream: life is a lot easier just using strings 21:46:09 you can't just use strings 21:46:15 of course I can 21:46:20 prxq: Not if you want any sort of portability. 21:46:31 drmeister, did you read the ILC2012 article about the scheme to C++ compiler? 21:46:31 Hexstream: not even then 21:46:58 prxq: ?? 21:47:08 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.4.230] has joined #lisp 21:47:17 If you try to do file stuff in eg. ruby, you will just want to re-implement CL pathnames! 21:47:17 -!- thephoeron [~thephoero@CPE0024369f3a03-CM00194792a698.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:27 I know, I started to do just that last week. 21:47:34 pjb: logical hosts and all? 21:47:41 Well, if I had time, I would. 21:47:43 Fare: Is there a paper? All I saw on the web site was a two sentence description of the talk. 21:47:43 frankly, I doubt it 21:48:05 Otherwise paths in Ruby (and I assume in Python and everywhere else) are just horrible. 21:48:07 there is a paper 21:48:25 you could email the author if it's not otherwise available online. 21:49:13 paths are horrible. CL makes them horrible in non-portable ways from one implementation to the next 21:49:21 For one thing, most of modern languages consider paths to be strings, that is, utf-8 strings. Wrong. 21:49:37 pjb: how so? 21:49:41 luqui [~luqui@75-166-107-43.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:42 python accepts either utf-8 strings or byte-vectors. 21:49:45 that's the Right Thing. 21:49:45 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.202.222] has left #lisp 21:50:00 prxq: POSIX paths are not strings. They are vectors of bytes excluding and 0, with 47 being the separator between "components". 21:50:15 pjb: smells like a string 21:50:30 fe[nl]ix, how does iolib do it, these days? 21:50:32 ah utf-8 21:50:40 Windows uses UTF-16 with either "\" or "/" as directory separator, with some extra aliases for compat 21:51:10 Fare: utf-8b 21:51:42 meh. 21:51:47 what ? 21:52:09 that's utf-8 minus encoding errors 21:52:27 yes, but that cannot be encoding-preserving 21:52:37 of course it can 21:52:45 pjb: but utf-8 will cover the vast majority of cases an application will ever find. 21:52:48 that's the whoile point of it 21:53:01 prxq: that's just no. 21:53:17 file systems are composed on systems using all sorts of encodings, not just utf-8. 21:53:25 what does it do with errors? embed them in surrogate characters? 21:53:30 And even if you consider utf-8, systems use all kinds of normal forms! 21:53:34 Fare: yes 21:53:41 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:42 and make sure surrogate characters are themselves treated as errors? 21:53:55 and in any case, they use POSIX API which specify only vectors of bytes, and that's final. 21:54:17 hm, i see. 21:54:31 enforcing utf-8 at the file-system level is a very good thing 21:54:46 doesn't windows enforce UTF-16 or something? 21:54:53 yes 21:55:09 Fare: NT apis use UTF-16 (or UCS-2 if it's older version) 21:55:16 fe[nl]ix: with what fucking normal form? 21:55:46 pjb: what's up with you ? 21:55:48 chill out 21:55:55 pjb: for combined characters 21:56:34 Things are just more complex than people think they are. 21:56:40 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:00 fe[nl]ix, ok, if surrogate characters representations are detected and escaped too, that's fine. 21:57:19 pjb: but ''They are vectors of bytes excluding and 0, with 47 being the separator between "components".'' seems pretty simple. 21:57:20 escaping the escape characters, except worse. 21:57:21 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-31C3B41C.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 21:57:22 -!- luqui [~luqui@75-166-107-43.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 21:58:00 *prxq* notices that he has a different set of problems than other people seem to have 21:58:02 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-167-168.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:38 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:59:05 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable107.197-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:59:39 pjb: you misinterpret POSIX. POSIX only forbids / and \0 as part of a file name, but allows the implementations to impose other limits 21:59:57 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:03:58 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106602ad07f29c3.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:05:06 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.4.230] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 22:06:23 _k [~k@62.46.143.226] has joined #lisp 22:07:43 I truly wish I understood why lisp pathnames are supposed to be great. I just don't get it. Even when I am dealing with files spread around places, I find strings just much easier to work with. 22:08:10 do people say lisp pathnames are great? 22:08:13 __k [~k@62.46.143.226] has joined #lisp 22:08:29 Bike: people say they are better than strings 22:08:35 prxq: because these days pathname formats on OSes most people see in their lifetimes are much, much simpler 22:09:03 p_l: well, ok, so PATHNAMES solve a problem that isn't anymore 22:09:25 i've only seen complaints about them, even PCL spends a chapter on writing a layer over them 22:09:36 -!- __k [~k@62.46.143.226] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:12 prxq: lisp pathnames SUCK 22:10:22 I think no one is more familiar with them than I at this point 22:10:22 lol 22:10:32 what with my having to work around them every day in ASDF 22:10:43 and they suck so badly it's not funny anymore 22:10:46 via make-pathname ? 22:11:09 fe[nl]ix: exactly! That's why you can have CL implementation imposing further limits, preventing you to access some files. 22:11:13 I have my own make-pathname* 22:11:25 and then a make-pathname-logical 22:11:35 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:44 pjb: I don't really care 22:11:53 Fare: why not avoid them completely? 22:12:07 prxq: because I can't import iolib in asdf. 22:12:17 especially when iolib depends on libfixposix. 22:12:21 Bike: pjb wants to implement them in ruby, etc. 22:12:40 that's pjb. 22:12:56 well, ok :-) 22:12:57 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:07 and CL pathnames are made worse for having 15 incompatible implementations. 22:13:13 Fare: you mean, without iolib, strings don't work? 22:13:21 of course they don't 22:13:35 each implementation interprets namestrings its own incompatble way 22:13:36 how so? You can pass strings to OPEN, no? 22:13:41 ah ok 22:13:52 they get parsed by parse-namestring first, and here be dragons. 22:14:12 one of the first thing I did with ASDF 2 was to write my own namestring parser. 22:14:23 What is now asdf/pathname:parse-unix-namestring 22:14:35 so basically, it isn't actually that crazy to use C's open via FFI.... 22:14:49 yes it is. Use iolib. 22:15:00 you don't want to reimplement iolib all by yourself from scratch. 22:19:26 Fare: so you have your own namestring parser to generate PATHNAME objects that then get passed to OPEN? 22:19:29 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:19:36 yes 22:19:58 that's the only way to be portable to 15 implementations 22:20:16 So you do the special character escaping specific to each implementation? 22:20:30 ...because if you pass a srting, they get first parsed into a PATHNAME object, then rendered again into a string that is actually passed to the OS? 22:20:44 no way I can demand users to have #+(and allegro win32) etc. for each and every relative pathname. 22:21:01 no. I parse unix namestrings regarless of implementation. 22:21:27 How do you build a PATHNAME from "/tmp/toto*" ? 22:21:30 Fare: why? (sorry, I really don't understand) 22:21:53 How do you build a PATHNAME from "/tmp/toto{1,2}" ? 22:21:59 so whether it's on genera or clisp for windows, "a/b" in a lisp file context means a relative pathname with subdirectory a and file-namestring b.lisp 22:22:10 Not if a is "hello*" 22:22:25 or in some implementations, "hello{1,2}" or "hello[a-z]" etc. 22:22:37 pjb: I don't do wild pathnames -- I read them with :name "toto*" and :name "toto{1,2}" 22:22:53 (wild-pathname-p (make-pathname :name "abc*")) is true on all implementation. 22:23:00 if you want wild pathnames, go use your own implementation 22:23:03 SO you can't read a file named "abc*". 22:23:23 then that's an implementation bug. Not my problem, anyway 22:23:35 No, my point is not to use wildpathname. It is to show that a posix pathname such as "/tmp/abc*" cannot easily and portably be converted to a CL pathname. 22:23:56 For * it's not a bug, it's specified so. For some other character it's implementation specific (still not bugs). 22:24:05 so what? I'm doing a best effort job that is enough to write portable stuff on 15 implementations. 22:24:39 Seems to me you're doing useless work, without adressing the real problem. 22:24:41 I don't purport to replace iolib 22:24:49 I am doing useful work 22:24:51 pjb: fact is, I don't know how to open such a file from sbcl 22:25:03 you can write your defsystem's and they will work on 15 implementations 22:25:06 Yes. My point: do not try. 22:25:18 And further, ASDF doesn't need to deal with random unix pathnames. 22:25:18 on 4 vastly different OSes 22:25:35 it does need deal with whatever users put in they .asd files 22:25:50 which includes pretty arbitrary relative pathnames 22:25:51 You could be restrictive here. 22:25:57 Ie. specify logical pathnames. 22:26:04 logical pathnames don't work 22:26:15 They work for me. 22:26:19 they behave vastly differently from one implementation to the other 22:26:25 and not at all on some 22:26:29 with glaring bugs 22:26:47 There are only a couple of implementations that map uppercase to uppercase in unix, which is boring, but otherwise, they work nicely. 22:26:53 you're imposing enough limitations on yourself that they do -- that's not the case for everyone 22:27:05 at work, we have directories with version numbers in them 22:27:06 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:08 foo-1.2/ 22:27:15 won't work with logical pathnames 22:27:41 CLHS says it's verbotten 22:27:46 SBCL enforces it. 22:27:49 End of discussion. 22:28:07 and who's going to setup the logical pathnames when? 22:28:20 in logical pathnames, but not in physical pathnames. So youcan map eg. #P"LOG:FOO-1-2;" to "/tmp/foo-1.2/". 22:28:30 welcome madness 22:28:44 so in effect, you haven't solved anything, just added a layer of complexity. 22:29:00 I make things portable. 22:29:05 -!- CrazyEddy [~noninitia@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:31 implementations can add their restrictions, they are not inherent to my parser -- I pass the restrictions through. 22:31:34 managing the logical host namespace is also madness. 22:32:18 a single large host with hundreds of rules is madness, especially on some implementations where translation is O(number of rules). 22:32:44 tens of hosts is madness, especially on implementations where that will clash with physical hosts. 22:32:59 physical hosts? 22:33:01 and who's to setup the logical pathnames, from what specification? 22:33:12 what physical hosts? 22:33:14 prxq, yes, some implementations have that. 22:33:23 disk drive letters? 22:33:39 Windows pathnames can be of the form \\host\drive\direc\tory\filename.type 22:33:50 gah, that 22:33:54 *prxq* had forgotten 22:33:55 Genera has host pathnames. 22:34:06 MCL, I don't know. 22:34:32 SCL and ABCL have hosts in URL pathnames. 22:35:20 portable use of "logical" pathnames is nuts. 22:36:13 bah, anyways with Apple, we'll all end in closed sandboxes, so no problem with pathnames anymore. 22:37:03 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 22:37:34 I think I now appreciate better Fare's work 22:37:42 we wouldnt need pathnames at all if we just concatenate everything into one giant universal file :) 22:38:32 Fare: thank you :-) 22:38:41 prxq, you're welcome :) 22:39:23 danlentz, as long as the underlying OS has pathnames, we need pathnames -- by which I mean OS pathnames, not CL pathnames. 22:39:47 CL pathnames are an "abstraction inversion", to use hbaker's expressoin 22:39:58 IOW, putting the cart before the horse 22:44:30 yes fwiw i do also recognise the extraordinary task you've undertaken and have long wished for ASDF to be a better tool, but I really had no idea how intractable and unappreciated the effort would be 22:45:00 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09781f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:45:46 neither did I -- or I wouldn't have tried. 22:46:07 in retrospect maybe calling it 3.0 would have alleviated some tensions 22:46:11 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 22:46:27 maybe. I've been hesitant to do so, but maybe I should. 22:46:43 allow people to ease into it 22:46:57 Let me think about it. 22:47:32 I think I'm the only one who ever checked asdf versions, and I'm having to update my code, anyway 22:47:41 in that case I'd have one feature request: to allow a sort of version marker at the beginning of the .asd file that would be recognized by ASDF 3.0 but would signal an error on older versions 22:47:46 so that might not introduce any actual backward incompatibility. 22:48:14 fe[nl]ix, what about :depends-on ((:version :asdf "3.0")) ? 22:48:22 i looked at the repo and it seems like a completely different animal. Its not what you'd expect from a 2.26 -> 2.27 release 22:48:44 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:45 yes, it *is* a completely different animal indeed. Completely rewritten. 22:48:54 Fare: that would signal a cryptic error on old ASDF versions 22:49:07 unknown package specifier, or something similar 22:49:29 I also would like to get rid of the temporary package. I understand the original rationale, but I think it's madness. 22:49:43 #.(cl:if (asdf:version< "3.0") (cl:error "Nice error message")) 22:50:04 asdf-e_to_the_i_theta 22:50:13 pjb, except asdf:version< won't be implemented on earlier versions! 22:50:49 why cant they coesist? 22:51:15 just have asdf3 live in a different package 22:52:22 continue to maintain 2.26 so nothing breaks 22:52:42 but focus new development on asdf3 22:53:37 what do you mean coexist ? 22:54:08 and in the process rid yourself of some of the constraints imposed by 100% backward compatibility 22:54:23 just a thought 22:54:45 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:31 no, too many things will break if I don't export :asdf 22:55:50 On the other hand, I could and *should* make asdf a nickname for another package name. 22:56:12 which is the case: it's now a nickname for asdf/interface. 22:56:24 but i would almost certainly jump into asdf3 for new projects, but have peace of mind that old stuff would continue to operate as it always had using asdf 2.26 22:56:26 If there's an incompatible asdf 4, it'll have asdf4/interface. 22:56:57 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:15 if you don't use the new features or the broken ones that were dropped (such as if-component-dep-fails), then you can work with either asdf 2.26 or 2.27 22:57:22 I agree now it should be asdf 3. 22:57:52 i suspect most stuff in quicklisp dists wouldn't notice 22:57:57 in any case you'd have a lot more breathing room to get asdf3 right if the pressure were off from the people who currently depend on asdf2 for their daily work 22:58:38 ah, right 22:58:44 I don't see how 22:58:54 I'm not going to maintain asdf 2.26 22:58:58 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:02 #-asdf3(error "This system requires ASDF3") 22:59:25 yup, looks better than #-asdf2.27 23:00:36 well by maintain i mean continue to make available 23:00:43 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 23:01:07 danlentz: that's not what is usually meant by maintain. 23:01:47 not in a world where you can easily find all previous versions of most open source software. 23:01:50 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:01:52 well it was sufficient for quicklist 2 months ago 23:01:59 quicklisp 23:02:09 100% compatible. 23:03:12 leave it as is and allow asdf2 and asdf3 to live together in the same image 23:04:19 -!- jockej [~joakim@dyna226-220.csc.kth.se] has quit [Quit: sova] 23:04:30 danlentz, not very possible. 23:04:45 danlentz: and then what happens if a library is loaded by ASDF2 and you try to load another one that depends on the former using ASDF3 ? 23:04:48 madness 23:05:02 once again, with CFFI, cl-protobufs, iolib, and plenty of ASDF extensions around that use package :asdf 23:05:10 even if as trivially as requiring (asdf3:load-system :foo) for the new semactics 23:05:16 it's not possible to have asdf2 and asdf3 living together. 23:05:51 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:59 unless you require incompatible changes from these libraries 23:06:15 which is the way to get low adoption of asdf3 and split the community. 23:06:25 I might as well drop asdf and work on xcvb instead. 23:06:40 if you depend on an asdf2 system it invokes asdf2 to load it 23:07:04 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:07:56 and how does it detect that? 23:08:13 once again, what you're talking about is xcvb, not asdf3 23:08:24 y thats what i was thinking was allow come incompatibilty 23:08:53 :system-classname asdf3:system 23:08:54 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:09:04 meh 23:09:57 and drop as much legacy concerns from asdf3 as you can get away with 23:10:11 let's better not 23:10:34 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 23:10:41 GuyEctor [~xTORjKsC@186.215.70.74] has joined #lisp 23:10:54 hi I'm 23:11:00 can someone see me? 23:11:02 hi 23:11:20 hi, zolk3ri , I want to learn lisp because I'm new to programming. 23:11:29 anyone can recommend me any good books? 23:11:34 I'm watching Winnie the Pooh. 23:11:41 practical common lisp, a gentle introduction to symbolic computation 23:11:55 GuyEctor: If you're looking into common-lisp, "Land of Lisp" is very friendly. 23:11:56 Oh are you still sucking your mothers breasts? 23:12:04 GuyEctor: Practical Common Lisp, A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence 23:12:05 oh ok I see. 23:12:14 GuyEctor: if you're new to programming, use: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 23:12:33 Wow wow Albert Einsteins, one at a time. 23:12:45 I'm a beginner you geeks 23:12:50 well i'm kind of speaking off the top of my head of course and defer to the wisdom of those that are actually involved in it... 23:12:52 lets see here 23:12:56 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:03 GuyEctor: see http://cliki.net/ 23:13:11 OK 23:13:28 I think I got enough reading material for the remaining year. 23:13:29 danlentz, you can join xcvb-devel for that :) 23:13:41 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686757.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:13:54 you do you guys like gather every month or so on a Lisp picnic? 23:14:05 so do * 23:14:13 There are some LUGs, indeed. 23:14:19 GuyEctor: Well since this a fairly international crowd, I'd assume not. 23:14:28 GuyEctor: check http://planet.lisp.org 23:14:41 There are also yearly conferences. 23:14:44 ok well thats cool. 23:15:14 I have been doing some statisical analyisis and I found out that lisp is the less used programming language by female programmers. 23:15:19 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:27 I wonder why that may be. I heard its pretty hard. 23:15:39 GuyEctor: It's less used in-general. :-I 23:15:45 why has #lisp been so this in the last few days 23:16:02 Bike what are you saying? 23:16:08 GuyEctor: Lisp can be incredibly harmful to those seeking to learn and use it. The most common illnesses and conditions associated with it are parentheses eye, diarrhea and Communism. 23:16:08 or trying to say? 23:16:15 Bike: Ignited interest, from new parties? 23:16:50 i just think there is a lot of constraints on your solution that are cultural and are imposing much difficulty to solve with a technical solution 23:17:02 GuyEctor, too late to organize a Lisp meeting, but I could have a Lisp dinner. 23:17:14 yeah I think female has alot of diarrhea when trying to program yea. 23:17:23 females* 23:17:59 I'm personally here, because I just switched to Stumpwm and know jack, abut Common Lisp. Not sure if there's actually been any major influx the past few days of "noobs" though, or what would cause such a thing. :-P 23:18:07 I see. well I hope we are all invited, it will be a geeky show. 23:18:17 Bike: I don't know. But perhaps there is some need to organize an op watch. 23:18:53 prxq: what is your problem with the current conversation, both you and Bike should calm down please. 23:18:57 Please. 23:19:17 *Fare* gets a Boston Lisp Meeting going for next Thursday. 23:19:26 youlysses: noobs is one thing, this is another. (anyway I was going to say #stumpwm exists, but I see you're already there) 23:19:29 OP WATCH, thats a harmful connotation to be used on a free weekend, do you work on weekends prxq? 23:19:40 GuyEctor: for one, stop your sexist bullshit 23:19:46 GuyEctor: fuck off, and take your pals with you. 23:19:52 Bike is #stumpwn your channel? 23:19:58 What?! :O 23:20:02 prxq: now it's your turn, should i by more inviting and inclusive? 23:20:07 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 23:20:08 prxp are you a female programmer? 23:20:08 be even 23:20:13 OH my god 23:20:31 -!- GuyEctor [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (GuyEctor) 23:20:40 GuyEctor: Lisp is really by no strong metric, "mainstream". So it comes to reason that the few female hackers there are (1 in 10, or something a long those lines), and not all of them, or even many are likely, will be willing to walk on the ledge of uncertainty. 23:20:43 H4ns: you know the difference between high level, slightly off topic, and this kind of moron, do you? 23:20:47 GuyEctor [~xTORjKsC@186.215.70.74] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 You can't be a programmer, not in the real sense of the word prxq you must be kidding yourself 23:20:52 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-47.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:20:59 prxq: well, you have a different threshold, obviously. 23:21:00 borel [~zxeuNHJgh@189.72.179.129] has joined #lisp 23:21:02 prxq 23:21:04 fe[nl]ix: you need the "ban" thing 23:21:08 seriously I mean cmooon. 23:21:08 is it true lisp sucks 23:21:14 i heard fe[nl]ix has hiv. 23:21:20 LOL 23:21:29 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~xTORjKsC@186.215.70.* 23:21:29 -!- GuyEctor [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (GuyEctor) 23:21:31 is it true fe[nl]ix that your ass is full of hiv 23:21:40 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~zxeuNHJgh@189.72.179.* 23:21:41 -!- borel [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (borel) 23:21:46 so go someplace mainstream then. what are you wasting your brilliant commentary on us for? 23:21:55 don't bother 23:22:02 feeding trolls, etc. 23:22:04 borelly [~cgOUdXzHi@58.218.185.86] has joined #lisp 23:22:07 yeah 23:22:08 fe[nl]ix has hiv 23:22:11 and is fucking dumb. 23:22:12 lol 23:22:19 "lol" 23:22:20 So, I'm assuming (hoping) #lisp is usually like this? :-I 23:22:22 fe[nl]ix tau sent u hugs 23:22:42 youlysses: It's not. Like I was trying to imply, it's just today and yesterday probably. 23:22:42 -!- borelly [~cgOUdXzHi@58.218.185.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:18 Bike: Ok, that's what I assumed. 23:23:33 *and I guess, you did hint (and I missed). 23:24:30 yeah its normally just good, clean bickering and general hostility toward consensus :) 23:25:07 danlentz: Sounds more-or-less like #emacs. :-) 23:25:15 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 23:25:46 actually there is a bizarre hostility toward CL over there 23:26:19 danlentz: is there? 23:26:28 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:26:38 i dont do much elisp at all so I havent quite put my finger on it 23:26:50 bizarre hostility towards CL is one of the original reasons behind elisp, isn't it 23:27:28 danlentz: I've takin it more as over-the-top joking. Elisp is a lot more Common-lisp like than Scheme than what I've seen. But, there does seem like there a lot of scheme-envy, which I don't see any real problem with. :-P 23:27:30 zolk3ri: who did you piss off, and can I know why? 23:27:42 H4ns: fwiw, your friednliness was exactly right with this guy :-) 23:27:55 youlysses: elisp essentially branched off from the same source as CL 23:28:05 prxq: i appreciate your approval1 23:28:22 whereas scheme started with something like "how can we use lexical scope and make a good compiler" 23:28:25 Bike: To my understanding, RMS was not a fan of CL and he *still* has a hard-on for Scheme. 23:28:26 i do not appreciate my shift key's inability to work. 23:28:29 p_l, noone 23:28:52 zolk3ri: then probably pissed of someone by not acting like they wanted. 23:28:57 *p_l* pats zolk3ri on the back 23:29:15 they continue to advance the idea that use of CL library in elisp code is bad form/deprecated 23:29:18 youlysses: to my understanding i'm not that interested in what rms thinks, though i've heard Guile is getting more traction in GNU and that's kinda nice 23:29:38 Bike: Guile was the original "GNU extension language" 23:29:51 doesn't mean it was actually used, though, yes? 23:29:54 but the most traction I've been hearing recently seems to be supposed Guile rewrite of Emacs 23:30:03 luqui [~luqui@75-166-107-43.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:04 RedneckJoe [~fGwENmqa@186.215.70.74] has joined #lisp 23:30:07 From what I've seen, I do seem to prefer scheme. But I really don't see anything inherently wrong with CL. It certainly seems better that elisp in most cases. :-P 23:30:38 Bike: well, at some point GNOME kinda had a failing out with GNU and went all wonky. Some GNOME-linked (not necessarily GNOME, but with strong ties) projects used to use Guile or other Lisp variatns 23:30:52 weird. 23:30:53 Bike: or so my recollection goes 23:31:20 p_l: Not a rewrite, just replacing some of the core-bits to use it. It's able to currently read/interact with elisp, but it's still really far from getting implemented into trunk. (Or atleast of what I've seen). 23:31:21 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-219-222.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:32 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106602ad07f29c3.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:16 not sure it's the direction I'd like, but mehj 23:32:19 *meh 23:32:20 I'm a hot female programmer who needs some help with her Lisp homework, anyone care to give me a hand, I will show you half a nipple, I got into the CS course just because I was brainwashed with feminist propaganda, and now I'm stuck, so is the life of a butch dyke lesbo programmer with a whole lot of piercings and baggy pants. and no panties but boxer shorts mind u. 23:32:22 Bike: Guile is starting to catch-up, but I still don't think it'll get any *major* impact unless it does get implemented in emacs' trunk. 23:32:37 LOl I have the wrong nick for this 23:32:38 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 23:32:48 -!- RedneckJoe is now known as Alice_breast 23:32:53 LOL 23:32:54 ... 23:32:56 it was difficult enough to develop proficiency with common-lisp. the last thing i need is to start filling my head with large amounts of slightly incompatible ideas 23:33:01 what the hell is bringing this on 23:33:02 p_L kick me in my cunt 23:33:03 lol 23:33:33 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*fGwENmqa@186.215.70.* 23:33:33 -!- Alice_breast [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (... Someone write a nice ban reason posthumously please) 23:33:35 sw2wolf{away} [~czsq888@171.212.202.222] has joined #lisp 23:34:01 p_l: Yeah, I'm honestly not even sure of the relationship GNOME has with GNU now. Even from a licensing standpoint. It's listed as GNU project, but does like the GNOME foundation hold the copyrights? 23:34:08 hammond [~abner@unaffiliated/portrait] has joined #lisp 23:34:14 Bike: one bored moron is enough for this. 23:34:24 -!- agumonkey [~agu@96.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:34:31 -!- _k [~k@62.46.143.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:41 youlysses: I believe GNOME foundation holds enough of the copyrights, but that technically makes it non-GNU 23:35:35 however, back in elder days KDE got bad reaction because licensing and C++, which is I think part of the reason 23:37:14 anyway the whole idea of CL was to eliminate the need to learn large numbers of incompatible dialects 23:37:38 so i wont 23:37:46 :) 23:37:52 p_l: Well KDE's licensing was the original reason GNOME even started, yes. It'd still be a shame though, if such a project either dies and/or officially disconnects itself from the GNU project. GNOME way not be the "best" desktop around, but it sure seems more mature/healthy than something like GNUSTEP. 23:38:03 *may not 23:38:21 bitonic` [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:38 youlysses: in my experience, it's been degenerating since early 2.x 23:39:18 but I don't wanna talk details on that, not now 23:39:47 -!- bitonic [~user@027b72d2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:39:48 fare: 23:39:48 p_l: Fair-enough. I still personally think it's one of the best consumer-grade free-software desktops I've seen. (Though I don't use it on a regular basis), :-P 23:40:44 danlentz, 23:40:58 youlysses: OT 23:41:06 youlysses: till look behind the veil, and see not even Oz, but a bunch of rottent scaffolding with signs of blueprints 23:41:24 keeping better-done pieces together 23:41:34 what about something lke (reinitialize-instance (change-class (find-system :asdf2-system) 'asd3:system)) 23:41:48 what about it? 23:42:05 Gnome is OT ever since they ditched sawfish 23:42:12 does that make the asdf extensions of CFFI, CL-Protobufs, IOLib, etc., work? 23:42:15 fe[nl]ix: right 23:42:49 sawfish it was called. 23:42:53 Pepsicola [~XhieUOWC@186.215.70.74] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 these days, I'm mostly angered because I can't simply write something, no matter the language, work easily by using simple things like calling external programs. 23:43:02 but fe[nl]ix, that wasn't a CL either 23:43:04 for handling the case you mentioned abount deps from asdf3 systems on asdf2 23:43:19 p_l: I'm just saying, it's one of the few environments I'd feel comfortable giving my parents, and that really means something to me. 23:43:24 and sorry, but dealing with D-Bus from zero isn't fun 23:43:26 youlysses: ok 23:43:27 p_l: what? 23:43:39 ah i see. 23:43:47 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:02 prxq: yep 23:44:04 prxq: I've been looking from time to time into writing some desktop-integrated bits (mostly in CL), and I tend to get discouraged seeing the mess that happened 23:44:24 thats' all from me 23:44:25 danlentz, that's not where the problem lies. 23:44:52 prxq: because of dbus ? 23:44:54 the problem lies with all the asdf extensions that call functions in package asdf, and define methods on such functions. 23:44:55 p_l: I'd never make the claim that it is from a technical or even usability standpoint, the "best". But I do think it's "good enough" for probably 75% of the computer-using population. 23:45:03 it's now either banservice (pun intended), and me reading/playing DF till I fall asleep 23:45:08 p_l: that was for you :) 23:45:17 youlysses, is there a lisp-related point there? 23:45:17 i figured clearly youd have thought of it if it were that easy... 23:45:29 fe[nl]ix: yeah. I think I'll write a proper article about that 23:45:31 o/ 23:45:33 youlysses: so to make this slightly lisp-related, i'm curious why you moved to stumpwm 23:45:46 Bike: Fare: Sorry. Used to the general banter of #emacs. 23:46:05 fe[nl]ix: iirc, it had a lisp, but that was rather far from CL. 23:46:14 so no, not because of dbus 23:46:18 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-162-165-225.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:46:20 actually, I used to do methods on update-instance-for-redefined-class, but I have stopped doing it, because other incompatibilities force me to invalidate systems loaded by a previously-loaded ASDF, anyway. 23:46:25 prxq: Can you lower your panties for me and take a picture of your hairy pussy? I mean its cool right, being a feminist means you don't have to hide the fact that you have a vagina anymore. Once you done taking a pic of that bushy cat, can you tell me if Butches go to mens bathroom and if Gay men go to females, and if they sit down when they pee, and if Butches stand up when they pee? Butches Dyke = Feminists, also does Homos use Cotex, and Butches don't? 23:46:32 LMAO 23:46:39 *Pepsicola* giggles of extacy. 23:46:39 prxq: I only have vague memories of rep, I wrote some code 10 years ago 23:46:40 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*XhieUOWC@186.215.70.* 23:46:40 -!- Pepsicola [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (...) 23:46:46 -!- sw2wolf{away} [~czsq888@171.212.202.222] has left #lisp 23:47:00 some script kiddie with zombie hosts? 23:47:11 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:22 just make the channel invite only for half an hour 23:47:48 actually, he seems to be lacking in hosts 23:47:55 I remember scwm -- scheme constraint window manager. It would leak memory and die after a few days of activity. 23:48:10 ouch. 23:48:11 or rather -- cause the X server to die 23:48:11 i will shut up because i have no idea what those extensions look like 23:48:14 stumpwm is better, I'm told 23:48:22 I even know a few non-lispers who like it 23:48:25 -!- p_l has set mode -bbb *!~xTORjKsC@186.215.70.* *!*fGwENmqa@186.215.70.* *!*XhieUOWC@186.215.70.* 23:48:35 i use stumpwm and i haven't had anything like that happen, thankfully 23:48:36 stumpwm is great. 23:48:43 hey Fade :) 23:48:50 heya, fe[nl]ix :) 23:48:51 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*@186.215.70.74 23:48:57 I should try stumpwm seriously some day. 23:49:02 except if asdf2 could somehow continue to be available to compile existem asdf2 systems 23:49:15 at work, they use ubuntu that has its own display thingie 23:49:26 danlentz: that can be as easy as having a asdf2 long-term branch 23:49:32 danlentz, once again, that's the xcvb way, not the asdf3 way 23:49:33 Fare: now he has to figure getting extra IPs 23:49:38 Bike: Well, I've been considering it for awhile. I've been a fairly loyal ratpoison user, and I do most, if not all of my work inside Emacs (well, besides conkeror and mplayer (and even these are arguable)), so, I really saw no reason to have a super-configurable clone. I recently switched back to Debian after awhile on Parabola then NixOS, and saw it was already packaged. Said what the hell, and gave it a try. In about 2 hours, I 23:49:38 already have near around a 100 line init-file. :-) 23:49:48 there are some issues if you use programs with a lot of windows, like Gimp, but if you're an emacs + terminal + webbrowser kind of user, it's practically ideal. 23:49:48 Fare: ah, Unity/gnome3 stuff? 23:49:57 ah right, it's the ratpoison successor 23:50:01 is unity related to gnome3 ? 23:50:15 I still use ratpoison as my wm in Xvnc sessions 23:50:26 Fare: kinda. I think they use same concepts, but forked very early in developement 23:50:28 which I use for my genera tests 23:50:31 actually its starting to sound like what i want is xcvb 23:51:13 danlentz, xcvb hasn't received much love last year, unlike asdf. It doesn't compile itself anymore, after I made last-minute changes to make it compatible with asdf3 at all. 23:52:03 so yes, xcvb is accepting new developers -- but at this point, mostly broken for users. 23:52:08 but you alwas throw in some little disclaimer when you mention it that scares me away... 23:52:26 what disclaimer? that it's currently broken? 23:52:35 I'll probably try to make it work again this summer. 23:52:40 yeah that doest help 23:52:58 I don't even *know* that it's broken, or how broken it is. 23:53:08 it really is a better concept 23:53:10 I just haven't used it in the last few months. 23:53:39 i have no particular sentimental attachment to asdf 23:53:41 and only touched it to make it compile with asdf3, and gut most of xcvb-driver to move it to asdf-driver. 23:53:46 neither do I 23:53:58 Fare: Unity is an alternative shell for GNOME3 technologies, it replaces what would typically be Gnome-shell. Another example of one such replacement shell would be Cinnamon. 23:54:23 I also don't like the current treatment of pathnames by xcvb. Too many layers of indirection. 23:55:06 I thought Unity was a replacement for the X server itself? 23:55:26 no, it's just a wm 23:55:43 is iolib pathnames really better? 23:55:51 you're thinking of wayland, fare. 23:56:00 prxq: Well, not really a wm either. :-P 23:56:11 i've had poor experiences with iolib in general 23:56:11 ' 23:56:23 Fare: no, it's jumped-up WM with notions of importance and assumption they know better. Wayland is what they cooked to make it easier to implement things like unity 23:56:25 danlentz: yes 23:56:26 yeah, Wayland. Is Ubuntu using Wayland after all? 23:56:35 danlentz: in what sense poor ? 23:56:56 Fare: please stop pressing my rage button ;_; 23:57:02 have a local branch which contains a number of fixes needed for darwin 23:57:12 fixes to what version ? 23:57:33 Fare: They might. They just recently made a statement, where they just stated that they also might start their own display-system... 23:57:41 danlentz: unfortunately Apple doesn't allow OSX to run inside a virtual machine, so I can't test there 23:57:59 including in some cases flat-out replacement with equivalent functions from osicat 23:58:16 danlentz: replacement of what ? 23:59:20 danlentz: iolib has a bugtracker. if you don't report bugs I can't even start to fix them 23:59:46 i can try to look though and get back to you 23:59:59 thers abought 4 or 5 i think