00:00:35 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:04:53 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:48 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.36] has joined #lisp 00:08:26 leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDB8866.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:54 theplanet^2 [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 00:08:56 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB8866.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:09:19 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:51 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:16:11 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:17:51 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-149-91.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:20:29 so for a class I just got thrown a bunch of random CL files with no package structure. where should I start with packages and the path system to get this stuff organized? 00:21:35 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:44 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboo14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 00:24:52 jrandom [~jrandom@184.21.254.97] has joined #lisp 00:25:01 f03lipe [~f03lipe@186.205.212.50] has joined #lisp 00:25:15 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 00:25:36 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:53 luqui [~luqui@97-118-187-87.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:14 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-187-87.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:26 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:37:59 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:38:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:40:33 arrdem: IIRC practical common lisp (available for free online) has a chapter about packages. 00:40:56 arrdem: that will organise the symbols. it's wise to split it up in files too. you can load the files using asdf. 00:41:59 arrdem: if you want an example asdf file, it might be wise to use quickproject to create a stub project for you. quickproject is available from quicklisp (which you should use if you don't use it yet). 00:42:37 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 00:42:51 arrdem: aside from that, i think the only thing you can do is think logically about the code you received and what makes sense to export/import. 00:44:39 -!- clone_of_saturn [~visitant@c-75-72-240-113.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:48:02 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.105.27] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:48:13 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 madnificent: do you program with commonqt too? 00:49:31 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 00:49:42 hi 00:49:49 I'm trying to follow this tutorial: http://www.xach.com/lisp/asdf-tutorial/ 00:50:21 and trying to use this library (or system, or package, I'm a bit confused yet): https://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/ 00:50:23 Posterdati: nope, can't help you there, sorry 00:50:44 madnificent: ok, thanks! 00:51:11 I tried to make my package-system-Idontknowtherightterm to depend on lispbuilder-sdl on the .asd file 00:51:14 Denommus: use quickproject 00:51:28 Denommus: quickproject may indeed help you 00:51:37 Posterdati: what is quickproject? Is there any relation with quicklisp? 00:52:13 Denommus: sure it is! 00:52:14 Denommus: a system is basically a set of files which may be loaded (possibly in a specific order). systems may depend on other systems. a package is a grouping of symbols. 00:52:30 Denommus: quickproject and quicklisp are separate. but you can install quickproject using quicklisp. 00:52:31 Denommus: (ql:quickload "quickproject") 00:53:05 Denommus: (quickproject:make-project ...) 00:53:24 hm. So the lispbuilder-sdl is a system, and the sdl package can't be found, even when I try to place it as a dependency on my .asd file 00:53:59 Denommus: http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ 00:55:03 Denommus: i just quickloaded lispbuilder-sdl and it did work 00:55:09 I'll have a look. Thank you a lot 00:55:30 Denommus: at least, the sdl package is there. i suggest you remove your own download of lispbuilder-sdl and use quicklisp's version instead. 00:55:39 Denommus: try it, your projects will be more clean and package proof 00:55:43 madnificent: yes, it does work when I quickload it. But do I have to manually quickload it every time, or is there a way to do that on compile? 00:56:28 Denommus: if you make your own asd file (possibly through quickproject) and you add lispbuilder-sdl in the :depends-on clause. (like :depends-on (lispbuilder-sdl)), then lispbuilder-sdl will be loaded before your project 00:56:32 Denommus: yes, there's a way to include packages dependency in a project, take a look at quickproject:make-project 00:56:38 I'm really a newbie on Common Lisp, I just started to learn. I just have an elisp background, it's just so different 00:56:46 Denommus: if you store your own project in quicklisp/local-projects/your-project-name/, then you can even quickload your own project. 00:57:11 Denommus: you may enjoy reading practical common lisp, if you aren't doing so already. 00:57:18 Denommus: follow the link I posted 00:57:18 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:40 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:46 Posterdati: i think he got it ;) it probably takes a little more time to read. especially when we keep spamming :P 00:57:58 good good 00:58:22 Posterdati: I'm reading it. I'm just trying to comprehend how to run the project 00:58:38 Pratical Common Lisp is a good book for a newbie, I found it very useful (stil find it useful) 00:58:48 so, what do I compile on Emacs? My .asd? How do I run it then? 00:59:04 Denommus: if your asd file defines the system denommus-is-awesome: (ql:quickload :denommus-is-awesome) should do the trick of loading it. 00:59:17 Denommus: you've installed slime, right? 00:59:18 alexy [~alexy@221.130.253.135] has joined #lisp 00:59:18 you don't (necessarily) run projects, you load them. lispbuilder is a library, after all. 00:59:26 right 00:59:51 I think I understood now 00:59:55 Denommus: just open slime M-x slime and quickload the project you defined yourself :) 01:00:23 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-196-83.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 01:01:16 making a comparison, my .asd is like my Makefile, where I define everything that should be compiled. Then, to run my project, I could put the "main" call inside a function, load it (possibly via quicklisp), and call this function. Am I understanding this better? 01:01:38 yes 01:02:02 perfect. Now it clicked to me. Thank you very much 01:02:16 the neat thing about quicklisp is that it will automatically download all the dependencies your system has if you don't have them already 01:02:59 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host201-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:03:06 similarly to bundler on Ruby, right? 01:03:22 possibly, I am not familiar with it 01:03:52 it's similar, but quicklisp seems even better 01:04:13 on bundler I have to manually run "bundle install" before running the project 01:04:21 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:04:52 linse [~marioooh@modemcable028.113-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:05:00 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.52.145] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:05:39 xenon_ [~xenon@95.168.116.198] has joined #lisp 01:06:11 can someone recommend me a good slime tutorial? 01:07:28 google for slime tutotial 01:07:32 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:41 Be happy there's a tutorial, don't be finicky. 01:08:10 too much to ask for a good one? :/ 01:08:57 prxq: My scripts use /usr/bin/clisp, it's often 2.48. Otherwise I use the latest release, 2.49+ 01:08:58 -!- MusangKing [~CatMtKing@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-42-253.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:09:23 seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has joined #lisp 01:09:52 xenon_: marco van baringer had an awesome screencast about it 01:10:07 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:18 make that Marco Baringer 01:11:43 thanks I will take a look 01:14:26 rmathews [~roshan@122.174.19.65] has joined #lisp 01:15:49 Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:19:18 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 01:20:16 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:14 Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.37.196] has joined #lisp 01:22:17 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:55 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.214.174.83] has joined #lisp 01:25:12 -!- alexy [~alexy@221.130.253.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:00 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:19 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:35:36 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.34] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 01:36:56 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:23 -!- sw2wolf is now known as sw2wolf{away} 01:42:12 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:16 ubii_ [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 01:43:03 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 01:44:49 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 01:44:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 01:44:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:45:02 -!- linse [~marioooh@modemcable028.113-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 01:45:20 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:45:29 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:46:35 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:47:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:50:01 clone_of_saturn [~visitant@c-75-72-240-113.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:54 -!- melvin- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 01:57:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:34 -!- sw2wolf{away} is now known as sw2wolf 02:02:40 -!- xenon_ [~xenon@95.168.116.198] has quit [Quit: xenon_] 02:02:46 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:26 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:17 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 02:14:15 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c1fb7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011893.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:16:42 -!- Alex3012 [~chatzilla@ool-1892c5c5.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:23 univyrse [~univyrse@71-82-19-203.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:37 hey, quick question, why does when in sbcl want a symbol? 02:27:50 I'm working through ANSI common lisp and when is not working right 02:29:36 <|3b|> can you be more specific about what you tried and what error message you got? 02:30:20 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.192.183] has joined #lisp 02:30:24 <|3b|> (use paste.lisp.org to paste code or errors longer than 1 line) 02:32:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134847 02:32:49 madnificent: Okay, thanks for the advice! 02:32:55 [6~ 02:32:56 <|3b|> you forgot the argument list for the defun 02:33:23 its a void function, im not passing anything in 02:33:36 and even without a defun, if I type the body into the repl I get the same error 02:33:41 <|3b|> so it is trying to use WHEN and (ODDP THAT) as names of arguments, and the latter isn't a valid name 02:33:45 univyrse: you still need () for an arguments list tho 02:34:17 <|3b|> are you sure it is the same error? 02:34:22 <|3b|> and not for exa 02:34:24 nope 02:34:34 <|3b|> for example complaining there is no variable named THAT or something? 02:34:42 dunno, thats weird, almost positive I've written similar functions that haven 02:34:49 havent complained at compile time 02:35:59 it seems like it would be rather easy to implement a feature that would let a function know if no arguments were defined, is there any oversight I'm having as to why I need to use ()? 02:36:07 its trivial, but im just curious 02:36:34 <|3b|> how do you distinguish between (defun foo (a b)) and (defun (a b))? 02:36:54 oh, well there's the oversight 02:36:57 univyrse: you can't fight the compiler. 02:37:09 <|3b|> (former being a function that takes 2 args and returns NIL, latter being your hypothetical function that takes 0 args and calls (A with B as an argument) 02:37:25 <|3b|> sorry, second should have been (defun foo (a b)) 02:37:28 univyrse: if you write (defun f (print hello) (print world)) the compiler will interpret it as a function named f with two arguments, one named print and another named hello. 02:37:35 DUH! 02:37:55 yeah i get that now 02:38:40 im still trying to internalize this homoiconic thing, it's still sort of alien, and i'm easily confused 02:38:40 People are too smart for their own good. 02:39:02 univyrse: that has nothing to do with specifics of lisp, but all with how computer works. 02:39:14 They're don't deal with meaning, just with tokens. 02:39:31 any language with FIOC acts differently, I'm coming to lisp after 4 years of scripting 02:39:45 What is "FIOC"? 02:39:51 forced indentation of code 02:40:05 Ah, COBOL. 02:40:12 lol kill me no 02:40:17 python 02:40:54 Well, COBOL evolved into Cobol, and is now free form. I'm sure python will see the light in twenty or thirty years too. 02:41:01 offtopic: i read a stat on HN that said there are 220 billion active lines of COBOL, and only about a million people who know any COBOL 02:41:25 Well, there are about three million programmers world wide, so 02:41:35 that's def not accurate 02:41:37 perhaps guido's secret hobby is FORTRAN IV programming... 02:41:45 can I get a source for that stat? 02:42:12 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/453880/how-many-developers-are-there-in-the-world 02:42:53 reading that same thread right now 02:43:06 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:39 no source or any references though, just some offhand allusion to someone named joel 02:44:08 and some people know more than one language, so you have to account for that, and some people learn a language and dont use it and forget 02:44:27 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/20300 02:44:27 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:44:33 come to think of it, that original statistic of 1m COBOLers isn't really valid 02:44:48 univyrse: knowing two languages doesn't makes you two programmers. 02:45:01 Good, you're coming to your senses. 02:45:15 pjb, that's what I was getting at 02:45:31 and that data only represents people on payrolls 02:45:40 but its better than some bullshit speculation 02:46:07 Well, there's an average. Not everybody on payroll can really program and not everybody who can program is on payroll. 02:46:10 the point is, there's an insanely small number of people who write cobol when compared to how much cobol that still runs 02:46:29 yeah, it's not really a "good" question 02:46:33 univyrse: but it _runs_. It's not bugged and doesn't need "maintainace". 02:46:47 thats a good point 02:46:58 i guess low level languages are usually more stable in that respect 02:47:12 Anyways, I have to get up to go to work in two hours. Good night 02:47:21 goodnight, nice chatting with you 02:47:21 -!- jrandom [~jrandom@184.21.254.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:47:30 thanks for your help as well 02:48:25 jrandom [~jrandom@184.21.254.97] has joined #lisp 02:55:29 pjb: where does the figure of 3 million programmers come from? 02:56:45 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:58:09 -!- f03lipe [~f03lipe@186.205.212.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:02:21 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:23 he left for the evening madnificent , but there's a few threads on stackoverflow that indicate a figure around 3m might be accurate 03:04:00 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-9-226.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:04:12 univyrse: i didn't doubt pjb's credibilty. wanted a source, mainly. thanks 03:04:41 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:53 oh, if you scroll up a bit there are links, if you want i can paste them again 03:05:01 sorry i misunderstood 03:05:07 -!- Guest66635 [~green@dsl-207-112-90-225.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:05:34 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-9-226.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:05:49 univyrse: missed them, thanks!!! 03:06:08 :) 03:06:16 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 03:06:41 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:10:36 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:10:37 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:11:49 kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:34 -!- ubii_ is now known as ubii 03:13:35 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 03:14:11 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.192.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:16:30 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-196-83.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:44 -!- 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[~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:27:29 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:42 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:30:13 -!- dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:34:01 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 05:35:02 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Client Quit] 05:36:31 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:37:49 Is it possible, given a symbol to get the value currently lexically bound to it? (e.g. what should foo be: (let ((x 3)) (foo 'x)) => 3 ) I can do it by rewriting part of the function to be a macro, but am wondering if there is an easier way. 05:40:00 I don't think that's possible. It would force compilers to make all lexically bound variables available by their names at all times... 05:41:24 Bike: that's what I thought... right now I have something that looks like #.`(lambda ... ) that does what I need 05:42:54 How does that work? 05:43:23 Bike: I am actually just doing the same thing over a compile-time constant list of symbols 05:44:24 er it's actually more like #.(map (lambda (x) `(stuff ,x))) 05:44:24 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:44:26 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:12 hi all 05:45:37 Values are not lexically bound to symbols. 05:45:50 The Symbol is used to _name_ the lexical variable. 05:45:57 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:01 But the lexical variable is not the symbol. 05:46:14 Zhivago: okay 05:46:20 quick common lisp question - how do i force a list element to be a string? For instance, (setf *data* '("dog")) (eq "dog" (first *data*)) = NIL 05:46:30 But in the REPL, they both show up as "dog" 05:46:38 clhs eq 05:46:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 05:46:42 clhs equal 05:46:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 05:46:44 ahungry: those strings aren't eq, they're string= 05:46:48 ahungry: read those 2 links 05:46:51 If this were not the case, consider the implication for shadowed lexical variables. 05:47:03 I can't change the equality test because I need (first *data*) to actually turn into "dog" for an (intern ,word) in a macro later 05:47:20 ahungry: if they're string= intern will give you the same result anyway 05:47:23 and my macro with the intern works if I call it with (my-macro "dog") 05:47:30 but not when I do (my-macro (first *data*)) 05:47:56 that's probably because macros don't evaluate your arguments, so you end up with essentially (intern '(first *data*)). 05:47:58 ahungry: are you evaluating the argument to your macro? 05:48:12 (defmacro get-word (word) 05:48:12 `(when (stringp ,word) 05:48:14 (gethash (intern ,word) *words*))) 05:48:26 is the stringp ruining it? 05:49:09 my *words* hash table is basically a bunch of words as strings for the keys, and the actual value inside is verb/noun/etc 05:49:15 ahungry: is there a reason you aren't just using a hashtable that uses #'equal? 05:49:22 so, if I call (get-word "dog"), I want it to return "verb" 05:49:27 errr, noun, since a dog is a noun heh 05:49:44 -!- seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:50:15 I'm still learning, I just finished practical common lisp but am not that great with CL at this point, how would I do that if you dont mind elaborating? 05:50:17 ahungry: or even #'equalp which will give you case-insensitivity 05:50:36 Although, note that such hash-tables probably won't be implemented as hash-tables. 05:50:51 ahungry: (defun get-word (word) (gethash word *words* :test #'equal)) 05:50:53 clhs make-hash-table 05:50:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 05:50:58 Im trying to write a little program that takes in some user input in a string of text, then uses cl-ppcre to break it up into a list of words, then I want to pull the first noun and the first verb out of their words 05:51:12 er, you don't need :test there, what am i saying. 05:51:32 ahungry: (make-hash-table :test #'equal) 05:52:23 Zhivago: #'equal hash tables won't be implemented as hash-tables? 05:53:35 thanks guys, starting tomake more sens 05:53:38 sense* 05:53:55 Would I rework this macro for setting the values? (incoming a few lines of code) 05:54:02 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 05:54:05 (defmacro set-words (words type) 05:54:05 `(loop for word in ,words do 05:54:06 (setf (gethash (intern word) *words*) ,type))) 05:54:13 (set-words '("look" "take" "smell" "listen" "who") "verb") 05:54:28 Why did you think that these should be macros/ 05:55:07 Its still not super clear when I should do macro vs function - seemed like CL was big on macros but I think I completely missed when to use them 05:55:39 ahungry: to a first approximatin: do a macro when there is no way to do it as a function, or the macro is way shorter and more readable 05:56:06 I dont suppose anyone has a small example of such a case? (and thanks btw) 05:57:22 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 05:57:54 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:29 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:41 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:28 well, I got my little thing working, thanks guys, spent a couple hours banging my head last night and in a few minutes you all completely clarified for me <3 06:01:46 hopefully I learn to suckless on CL 06:01:52 later all 06:02:35 ahungry: check chapter 8 of "On Lisp" for some reasonable advice on when to use macros 06:02:45 thanks jasom 06:03:45 ahungry: if the special operator IF did not exist, you could not write it as a function 06:04:31 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:03 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 06:09:55 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.218.131] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:11:18 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14:55 nikodem [~mikey@user-46-112-225-68.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:19:04 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-42-96.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:25:39 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:25:55 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has joined #lisp 06:28:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:29:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:29:39 -!- Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.37.196] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 06:31:12 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:31:51 -!- zanoni_ [~quassel@187.2.159.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:37 ahungry: you could change the argument order, and have &rest words. For examples when to use macros, see the with- macros (eg. with-open-file). 06:35:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-80-245.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:38:21 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 06:38:59 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:39:00 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 06:41:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.253.199] has joined #lisp 06:41:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.253.199] has quit [Changing host] 06:41:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:41:12 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:42:27 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 06:42:50 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:48:43 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 06:49:20 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:49:45 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:51:08 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:53:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:57:22 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:03:08 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-124-109.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:55 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 07:09:55 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:11:22 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:26 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:18:45 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:25:47 DataLinkDroid: actually you can: (defun if* (test then-thunk &optional else-thunk) (funcall (get (not (not test)) 'execute) then-thunk (or else-thunk (lambda () nil)))) (setf (get 't 'execute) (lambda (th el) (funcall th))) (setf (get 'nil 'execute) (lambda (th el) (funcall el))) (if* (= 1 1) (lambda () (print 'yes)) (lambda () (print 'no))) 07:26:11 It just involves some boilerplate. 07:26:23 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.214.174.83] has left #lisp 07:26:28 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 07:26:30 is that really relevant to the point, which is that you can't duplicate the syntax proper? 07:26:34 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 07:26:48 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:26:57 ludston [~patience@CPE-121-216-102-83.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 Bike: well, if you want to duplicate the syntax, you can implement a lazy evaluator. 07:28:18 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:30:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 07:31:23 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 07:32:19 <|3b|> better yet, implement a turing machine, then write a lisp with macros that runs on that 07:33:45 t 07:36:43 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:47:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:08 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:57:01 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:36 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 pjb: so you use clisp form cvs? 08:02:27 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:02:43 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:03:03 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:05:14 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:07:57 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:44 agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:28 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.34.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:16:11 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:19:44 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 08:20:24 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:15 prxq_: i though clisp was in mercurial these days 08:22:17 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:22:22 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 08:22:58 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:26:31 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-137-170.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 08:32:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:34:46 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:37:52 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:18 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:50 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:48 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:45:06 benny [~user@i577A8AA8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-124-109.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:47:17 lparallel compile fails on SBCL with: Symbol "WORD" not found in the SB-EXT package 08:47:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:47:27 ehu [~ehu@31.136.214.137] has joined #lisp 08:47:27 quicklisp version and git master version alike 08:47:30 any idea? 08:48:28 mmm, sbcl 1.0.40.0.debian, might explain? 08:49:13 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:49:24 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@211.67.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:49:39 I thought sbcl had had word for a while... maybe it wasn't exported back then. 08:49:40 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDB8866.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:49:54 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has joined #lisp 08:49:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has quit [Changing host] 08:49:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:50:42 I seem to have it in 1.1.1 08:50:47 backport time, already 08:51:09 it's a one line definition if you need to just patch 08:51:56 and what's the next problem after that, then? 08:52:11 I'm under some pressure, I will just get a ccl maybe 08:52:13 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:52:28 whatever works. 08:52:36 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:26 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:53 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.136.214.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:54:10 yeah, that's my current track :) 08:55:09 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:58:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:59:17 ensure_space: failed to validate 8589869056 bytes at 0x1000000000 08:59:28 mmm, sbcl won't compile when the machine only has 15GB? 08:59:52 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 09:01:48 -!- easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:03:23 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 09:09:57 dim: seems strange 09:10:12 indeed 09:11:05 this time it's going on 09:11:15 dim: faulty ram? 09:11:19 -!- theos is now known as Guest53616 09:11:27 who knows? but that's a though, yes 09:11:48 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:12:20 compilers are interestingly enough very good at testing ram 09:12:35 -!- Guest53616 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:16:34 easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:20:44 hehe 09:21:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:23:15 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:23:51 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 09:23:51 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 09:23:51 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 09:24:41 agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:08 ccorn [~ccorn@oosteinde.castasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:55 <|3b|> sounds more like failure to allocate enough address space than bad ram 09:27:48 *|3b|* doesn't know what would cause that on linux though 09:29:23 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-aeyvbfjxtalpigco] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@oosteinde.castasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:36:14 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 09:39:56 add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-10-180.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:42:02 snearch [~snearch@f053007191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:56 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:18 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:08 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:56:46 ponder... wonder how much effort it would be to write a cl compiler.. 09:57:05 hi 09:58:53 I need help on commonqt for the treeview control. 10:01:51 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 10:01:51 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 10:01:51 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 10:03:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:03:52 snearch [~snearch@f053007191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:34 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:11 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:12 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 10:05:37 I need to add an header to the treeview, but methods on Qt documentantion do not exists in commonqt! 10:06:39 Posterdati: you need to do more CFFI! 10:07:08 prxq: actually, it's been so long since clisp had a release, I don't remember where I got it from! 10:07:35 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 10:07:35 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 10:07:35 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 10:09:49 clisp is still being hacked on though 10:11:19 Sure. 10:11:28 But it doesn't have a lot of bugs 10:11:30 -!- agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11:31 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.210.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:12:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:13:22 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.254.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:38 <|3b|> zorkmoid: if you use the definition of 'compile' from CL spec, a cl compiler is pretty easy, but the library would still be quite a bit of work 10:13:46 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-124-109.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 Posterdati: that can't be true 10:14:18 <|3b|> zorkmoid: making it actually a useful compiler is a bit more work, potentially arbitrarily large amounts of work 10:14:35 Posterdati: all methods Qt defines are accessible through commonqt 10:15:23 |3b|: mmm... i think the library would be quite trivial enough ... mostly... 10:16:09 i like the way you say "trivial" 10:16:25 <|3b|> there are quite a few of even the trivial parts, and getting the details right on a bunch of it can be pretty hard 10:16:39 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:50 <|3b|> don't forget you need bignums, clos, conditions, etc 10:16:52 stassats: for the most part, cl is very trivial, 80% of it is just silly stuff... 10:17:19 bignums are easy, clos wel... closer-mop ... conditions, true. 10:18:03 mm... maybe try it for the weekend .. 10:18:08 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:18:41 pjb: what do you think? 10:18:59 that's why there are so many high-quality common lisp implementations. they are so damn easy to write! 10:20:16 who said anything about "high quality" 10:20:17 closer-mop is not an implementation of MOP 10:21:28 <|3b|> making something that isn't CL is a much easier task 10:21:38 H4ns: if it works, can compile i dunno .. another cl implementation, then that would be enough :-) 10:21:50 |3b|: for sure, but that ain't fun! 10:22:11 one could write a scheme in less than a day ... no fun 10:22:17 <|3b|> well, then being actually CL requires some minimum level of quality 10:22:38 <|3b|> if you don't care if you get a bunch wrong, i wouldn't call it CL 10:22:56 there is a term "conforming implementation", you know 10:23:04 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 10:23:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00330c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:51 yes, which is the goal 10:24:04 or would be ... 10:25:24 lunch! 10:25:26 hugs people! 10:26:26 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:08 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:32:59 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 10:35:10 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-46-112-225-68.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:38:40 stassats: what is the correspondig lisp method for void QTableWidget::setHorizontalHeaderItem ( int column, QTableWidgetItem * item ) 10:39:16 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 10:39:42 (#_setHorizontalHeaderItem table-widget column item), obviously 10:40:18 sorry 10:40:32 stassats: void QTableWidget::setHorizontalHeaderLabels ( const QStringList & labels ) 10:40:39 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:40:54 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 10:41:02 (#_setHorizontalHeaderLabels (sizes-tableview instance) (list "ciao" "bella")) 10:41:14 (#_setHorizontalHeaderLabels table-widget '("a" "list" "of strings")) 10:41:20 naturally 10:41:45 No applicable method setHorizontalHeaderLabels found on # with arguments (("ciao" 10:41:45 "bella")) 10:42:35 qtableview is not a qtablewidget 10:43:13 the method referring to a QTableWidget 10:44:08 ask somebody else to help you, i can't do that anymore 10:45:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00330c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:48:28 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:48:32 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:42 done! 10:48:45 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 10:48:55 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:19 stassats: I confused the tableview with table widget :)ù 10:55:08 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.63.199] has joined #lisp 10:59:44 antonv [25117335@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.17.115.53] has joined #lisp 11:04:09 pve [~user@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:04:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:08:26 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 11:13:17 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:52 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:16:18 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:17:40 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:20:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:20:53 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:24:04 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@248.Red-79-157-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:30:43 zorkmoid: CL is a lisp: it's EVAL function basically stands on a single page. (Printed small). The rest is library code. 11:31:28 ogamita: uhm, no, it isn't that simple. 11:32:27 agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:52 It's finite. There are 25 special operators, and a few concepts (bindings, scopes, function application, etc) and that's it. 11:33:02 one excellent example is steel's eval for cl in cl... 11:33:10 And of the 25 special operators, a good half can be implemented trivially as No-Operation or in terms of others. 11:33:11 it is not even close to a single page, printed small 11:33:41 zorkmoid: standard printers have 600 dpi nowadays 11:33:47 If not more. 11:34:05 don't you think your line of reasoning isn't a bit silly? 11:34:36 zorkmoid: somebody with good and profund knowledge of CL could write a complete CL eval in a week end. 11:34:50 ogamita: doubt it 11:35:06 http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/lisp/eval.lisp 11:35:46 if you want EVAL in cl .. 11:35:51 (that is i think three evals) 11:35:56 Thanks. 11:36:13 zorkmoid: What's the high level view of the features that has? 11:36:26 Have also a look at my cl-stepper: it defines the special operators (to trace them). 11:36:34 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 11:36:55 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:37:14 rking: read the code, it isn't that complicated... but writing it not a "weekend" :-) 11:37:25 steele writes easy to understand code 11:38:07 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:38:44 abeaumont [~abeaumont@248.Red-79-157-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:03 ogamita: in either case, a weekend, doubt it... 11:39:07 a week or two, sure. 11:39:15 zorkmoid: eval.lisp is only 58363 bytes, it can be typed in half a day. 11:39:32 You still have 40 hours to debug it. 11:39:51 ogamita: do it :-) 11:40:31 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 11:41:42 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 11:41:45 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:43:32 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.89] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 11:43:58 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 11:44:33 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.89] has joined #lisp 11:47:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-124-109.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:47:10 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.14.64] has joined #lisp 11:49:11 ok I don't understand another error 11:49:57 cl-postgres:open-copie is said to be undefined but is exported in the defpackage stanza of my copy of Postmodern (the one from mcna fork) 11:50:15 cl-postgres:open-copier, sorry 11:50:21 it works on 2 machines, not the 3rd 11:50:33 what is the next step 11:51:01 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:08 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:57:06 on the third machine, you did not load the postmodern that you wanted to load 11:57:28 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:14 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-171-73.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:59:54 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:00:17 ccorn [~ccorn@oosteinde.castasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:22 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:38 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-137-170.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:12 where-is-system is not telling that story 12:03:31 and I did rm -rf the cache 12:04:02 the system-index.txt looks good 12:05:46 are they on the same git revision? 12:06:02 ; compiling file "/home/dim/quicklisp/local-projects/Postmodern/cl-postgres/trivial-utf-8.lisp" (written 23 JAN 2013 01:21:58 AM): 12:06:14 looks good (verbose output from quicklisp) 12:06:30 stassats: today's clone, checked the sources (bulk-copy.lisp) already 12:07:14 I think I just found it 12:07:57 mmm, but it's the same source at home, and not the same consequences 12:08:01 something is beyond me 12:08:16 +allegro (:file "bulk-copy" :depends-on ("public")))))) 12:08:26 that's all I can report here as a good track against the problem 12:08:58 seems that bulk-copy.lisp works only on allegro cl 12:09:19 yeah, using system: 12:09:39 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 12:09:55 would you know a lib providing support for temporry file? 12:09:58 ahem 12:10:04 cl-fad 12:10:49 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.14.64] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 12:10:50 "Implementing CL one function per day" -- that would be an interesting srticle series... 12:11:20 oh, I have a local hacked version of postmodern here 12:11:28 and I didn't remember nor checked about that first 12:11:32 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.166] has joined #lisp 12:11:37 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@oosteinde.castasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 12:12:49 You could start with car, caar, caaar, and so on. 12:13:01 Zhivago: half the year done in a jiffy ;-) 12:13:05 apparently the cl-fad temp support is not in quicklisp yet 12:13:57 dim: i'm making a release now 12:14:07 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:14:08 thanks, awesome 12:14:31 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:14:31 for that particular project I will just #+allegro the specific temp file feature rather tha the whole bulk-copy support 12:14:38 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18:17 -!- eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 12:18:33 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:52 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: cl-fad 0.7.0, Hunchentoot 1.2.10, SBCL 1.1.3, Yason 0.6.3 12:19:04 H4ns: if looking for the next step with the cl-fad temp file support, including it in mcna Postmodern fork so that it's not #+allegro looks a pretty awesome one :) 12:20:08 chitofan [dcff0291@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.145] has joined #lisp 12:20:24 dim: you're welcome to for that repository, make the adjustments and then submit to marijnh for inclusion in Postmodern. 12:20:45 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:20:57 I think I might have some time to do that in august 12:20:57 dim: we're not using the bulk copy mechanism and andy, who wrote it, has left mcna 12:21:24 I understand that without a use case you have no real motivation 12:21:26 I tried :) 12:21:34 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.87.57] has joined #lisp 12:21:51 Greetings! 12:22:19 Great news: sbcl doesnt 12:22:23 Shit. 12:22:24 The value CL-POSTGRES::TEXT is not of type STRING. 12:22:26 damn it 12:22:34 Sbcl doesn't compile on osx 10.8 12:23:23 It says something is wrong with sb-sprof. How to disable it? Tried --without-prof and --without-sb-prpof without success. 12:23:26 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 12:24:03 (case (intern (copier-format self) #.*package*) ... 12:24:03 hitecnologys: why do you need to compile it? 12:24:12 hitecnologys: and if so, why don't you read the instructions? 12:24:31 any reason to do that dance when apparently (copier-format self) is a symbol anyway? searching more 12:24:33 H4ns: I read, sh make.sh always worked. 12:24:49 hitecnologys: and why did you need to compile again? 12:25:03 H4ns: I have 1.1.2. 12:25:16 H4ns: I tried to compile 1.1.3. 12:25:41 *H4ns* uses 1.0.58 on some machines 12:25:53 sb-sprof tests are just failing, you can disregard them 12:25:59 stassats: how? 12:26:09 say out loud "i don't care" 12:26:20 ._. 12:26:55 All works nice on my gentoo, btw. 12:27:26 if you want to run install.sh and use sb-sprof, then just do touch contrib/sb-sprof/test-passed 12:27:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-152-60.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:40 well, gentoo is not os x, isn't it? 12:27:51 rather, is it? 12:27:53 stassats: sure. 12:28:30 stassats: but the problem is not with osx definitely. 12:29:00 of course not, osx is infallible, guarded by the spirit of Jobs 12:29:24 Nope, because 1.1.2 worked perfectly. 12:29:46 how do you know? 1.1.2 didn't have any tests for sb-sprof 12:30:00 stassats: lol, I didn't know that, sorry. =( 12:30:15 1.1.4 will have that test disabled 12:30:32 on os x 12:30:35 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has joined #lisp 12:31:16 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 12:31:18 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:31:30 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:15 -!- guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:23 guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 12:33:45 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-29-27.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:34:45 stassats: ok. 12:35:44 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:50 anyone here has read land of lisp, i'm having problems with graphviz 12:40:50 chitofan, memo from ogamita: if you want to do embedded programming with Common Lisp, you could talk about it here. Even if you're only using Common Lisp to generate the embedded code (ie. not running a full fleshed CL implementation on the embedded system). 12:40:50 chitofan, memo from ogamita: For a start, read about RAX! http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/pub-archive/176h/0176%20(Havelund).pdf (and there's a video about it on youtube too). 12:41:37 mm... anyone know of a elf handling library? preferbly with dwarf support ... 12:41:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:51 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:12 minion seems broken .. 12:42:17 minion: cl-elf? 12:42:17 cl-elf: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-elf 12:42:58 stassats: sweet ... 12:43:45 no dwarf support .. guess i have to write it. 12:44:58 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 12:45:28 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 12:47:19 Oh wow, changed only one line in contrib/sb-sprof/test.lisp and it worked. I'm a moron. 12:49:08 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.89] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 12:54:52 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 13:04:23 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 13:06:09 Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.37.196] has joined #lisp 13:09:23 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:10:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 13:10:25 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:29 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:54 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:14:25 -!- sirmacik is now known as kichawazabierzmo 13:14:34 -!- kichawazabierzmo is now known as morsikawa 13:14:45 -!- morsikawa is now known as sirmacik 13:15:10 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:16:01 kilon_alios [~kilon@188.4.222.185.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:18:00 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-221.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:18:12 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 13:18:13 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.222.185.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Changing host] 13:18:13 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:16 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 13:22:18 hi 13:22:25 best way to get slime? 13:23:31 (ql:quickload 'quicklisp-slime-helper) 13:23:41 "get" as in "understand"? 13:33:49 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:02 "torrent" might be the answer ;) 13:35:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:47 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:47 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 13:39:10 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:41:01 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:32 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:45:13 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:51:48 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.1] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:55:19 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 13:55:32 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:56:18 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:56:23 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:49 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:58:39 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-221.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:58:49 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:59:06 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.89] has joined #lisp 13:59:53 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:a958:2298:363a:4989] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.211] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 chitofan: I've browsed Land of Lisp. What problem do you have with Graphviz. (I don't remember a relationship between Land of Lisp and Graphviz). 14:02:42 oh you used graphviz at chapter 7? 14:02:48 i use lisp in a box instead of clisp 14:02:52 so i'm having problems 14:03:05 i cant generate the png file 14:06:03 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-222-249-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:49 paolo-m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:ecab:b46c:99c4:dbea] has joined #lisp 14:11:38 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:a958:2298:363a:4989] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:12:44 kilon_alios [~kilon@62.1.245.142.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:13:13 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon_ 14:14:04 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:29 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 -!- theplanet^2 [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host 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(www.adiirc.com)] 15:14:14 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:37 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:15:46 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.10] has joined #lisp 15:17:05 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.63.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:17:57 -!- agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:26 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:19:36 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 mm, babel is happy with some utf8 text back from cffi, and then PG saith it's not UTF8... is there a check function in babel that I'm not seeing? 15:21:18 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.254.168] has joined #lisp 15:22:54 chitofan: so it's not a question relative to lisp, but to graphviz? Just run the command: dot -Tpng -ograph.png graph.dot # to generate a png from a graphviz .dot file. 15:23:13 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:23:17 in the neato.exe right? 15:23:20 -!- capisce_ is now known as capisce 15:23:40 chitofan: if it's neato, then it's neato: neato -Tpng -ograph.png graph.neato # to generate a png from a graphviz .neato file. 15:24:51 Now, if you're using MS-Windows, in addition, I know nothing about MS-Windows. (Just how to install cyginw, and go on with cygwin, and even that, I use it only a couple of times a year, when I have to touch a MS-Windows system). 15:25:01 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:27:49 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:27:57 Greetings lispers 15:29:41 ThomasH: hi! 15:30:57 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:31:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:32:13 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Changing host] 15:32:13 stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has joined #lisp 15:33:45 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:09 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 15:34:13 princ assume some encoding? 15:34:15 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:43 -!- ilogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:52 Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.37.196] has joined #lisp 15:35:24 nope 15:35:38 it just feeds characters to a stream 15:35:53 the stream is concerned with encoding 15:36:26 findiggle [~kirkwood@67.40.30.237] has joined #lisp 15:36:42 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.254.168] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 15:39:24 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-221.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:40:55 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 15:40:58 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-221.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 15:40:59 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:41:26 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has left #lisp 15:41:36 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 15:42:34 how can we control the streams encoding? 15:42:46 mrout [~miles.rou@unaffiliated/mrout] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 best way to start learning CL? 15:43:07 <[6502]> in CHLS nconc description isn't the first example undefined behavior? 15:43:48 mrout: depends on your background. if you come from java and the likes, look at pcl 15:43:54 minion: tell mrout about pcl 15:43:54 mrout: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:44:20 H4ns: Java? disgusting. C++, Python and Haskell. But thanks :) 15:44:30 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:44:33 mrout: c++ and python are "the likes" 15:44:37 What are some of the differences between common lisp and scheme? I've heard they're very similar. 15:45:11 mrout: they are not. scheme is minimal with an emphasis on "hygiene" and tail recursion. 15:45:25 whereas cl is? 15:45:25 mrout: Common Lisp is cool, scheme is not 15:45:26 mrout: common lisp is big, practical, iterative. 15:45:26 minon: tell me about stream encoding 15:45:35 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:46:11 dim: you need to create a stream with the correct external-format 15:46:19 stassats: i suppose I'll just have to take your word for that :P 15:46:31 <[6502]> big with 1980's meaning... not much batteries included 15:46:41 mrout: you can go to #scheme to get the opposite answer 15:46:46 their irc channel is certainly less active. I asked "Best way to start learning scheme?" at the same time, and got almost no response 15:47:31 <[6502]> mrout: for scheme I suppose there standard starting point is SICP 15:47:33 [6502]: what do you mean, undefined behavior? 15:47:48 <[6502]> stassats: it modifies a quoted list 15:47:56 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:56 stassats: here the stream is created by cl-postgres in external format latin1, can I have a say at what external format it will use? 15:48:02 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:07 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.226] has joined #lisp 15:48:09 I've seen *client-encoding* which is not exported 15:48:18 dim: consult cl-postgres source code/documentation 15:48:32 doing that already, will go back to it 15:48:33 [6502]: maybe i can't count, but the first example is (nconc) 15:49:01 -!- mrout [~miles.rou@unaffiliated/mrout] has quit [Quit: Screw you guys, I'm going home.] 15:49:02 <[6502]> stassats: that's in the description... 15:49:07 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 15:49:07 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 15:49:07 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:21 is that so? 15:49:51 -!- hiteki` is now known as hiteki 15:49:52 <[6502]> stassats: I'm not sure if you really don't get it or if you think it's funny 15:50:12 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-221.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:50:24 clhs nconc 15:50:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm 15:51:10 first is "(nconc) => NIL" 15:51:24 why would (nconc) be undefined behaviour? ... 15:51:25 <[6502]> stassats: i simply thought it was not ok to call nconc passing '(a b c) 15:51:53 <[6502]> stassats: that is DESCRIPTION section... a few lines later there is EXAMPLES 15:51:54 [6502]: huh? 15:52:06 [6502]: (nconc) => NIL 15:52:14 [6502]: it's not ok, but who cares, it's an example 15:52:16 [6502]: first example, conforms to the first descriptive line ... 15:52:26 examples are not a part of the standard 15:52:29 indeed. 15:53:08 still, the example is well defined :-) 15:53:41 <[6502]> zorkmoid: it is? 15:53:51 [6502]: yes, why do you think it isn't? 15:54:19 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB8FC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:23 it can refuse to work, but other than that, it's clear what's being demonstrated 15:54:24 <[6502]> zorkmoid: any object that is passed to evaluation or compile cannot be altered 15:54:52 [6502]: i hope it gets fixed in JSlisp HyperSpec! 15:54:54 [6502]: ok, and? 15:55:28 <[6502]> stassats: uh? what does this have to do with jslisp? 15:55:49 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:56:18 [6502]: i still don't see how it is undefined, clearly, the definition of (nconc) is to return () ... which the example does show as well. 15:56:37 <[6502]> zorkmoid: and nconc alters the last cons cell (that was passed for evaluation in setq) ... so that code is not valid CL 15:56:50 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:05 [6502]: what? (nconc) is perfetcly valid CL. 15:57:12 well, that's it folks, pack your bags, an example in clhs isn't pedantic enough! 15:57:21 zorkmoid: [6502] is not talking about (nconc) 15:57:27 oh 15:57:32 what is he talking about then? 15:58:04 everything in the first example paragraph, except (nconc) 15:58:10 [16:43] <[6502]> in CHLS nconc description isn't the first example undefined behavior? 15:58:48 i'm confused. 15:59:28 <[6502]> may I ask what did I do wrong to get treated this way? 15:59:49 [6502]: sorry? i don't see anyone mistreating you ... 15:59:49 You're in the #lisp chat room. 16:00:25 [6502]: could you be specific with what you exactly think is undefined? code snippet or something would be useful... 16:00:27 [6502]: you weren't pedantic enough in describing the lack of pedanticism in CLHS 16:00:49 [6502]: ignore stassats .. :-) 16:01:09 Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:01:28 [6502]: that's why i got confused initially, and zorkmoid is still confused 16:01:45 <[6502]> build finished 16:01:47 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-028-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:47 [6502]: but what you're saying is absolutely correct 16:02:00 just that nobody cares about it 16:02:01 <[6502]> I'd really love to continue this discussion but my break is over 16:02:12 <[6502]> bye guys 16:02:30 <[6502]> anb bye idiots too 16:02:35 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:02:57 -!- chitofan [dcff0291@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:17 i still don't get what is undefined... 16:03:27 zorkmoid: (nconc '(a b c) '(d e f)) 16:03:48 BBIAM, trying to fix ERC scroll behavior. 16:03:49 but there is no such example in clhs ... 16:04:02 zorkmoid: You're not really funny. 16:04:31 snearch [~snearch@f053007191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 ThomasH: huh? [6..] asked about an example in the clhs being undefined behaviour, (nconc '(a b c) '(d e f)) is not an example in clhs 16:05:12 zorkmoid: Stop being intentionally obtuse. 16:05:23 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-213.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:29 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:39 ThomasH: and please stop being so rude, it is a prefectly valid question. 16:06:08 Don't mistake my parting for annoyance, I'm messing around with my ERC config 16:06:13 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 16:06:42 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 16:07:14 ERC doesn't seem to scroll to bottom correctly. 16:07:16 Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 and i can't see how (nconc '(a b c) '(d e f)) is undefined either. 16:07:53 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-133-157.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:08:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:48 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 16:08:50 hi 16:08:57 clhs 3.7.1 16:08:58 Modification of Literal Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ga.htm 16:09:00 zorkmoid: destructive operations on literal values have undefined behavior 16:09:18 mm... do you have a ref? 16:10:44 zorkmoid: stassats already pointed it out. 16:10:58 ah,s orry missed it! thanks. 16:11:20 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:23 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 fair enough, i conceed! :-) 16:12:18 *ThomasH* finds it is a known bug in ERC 5.3 16:13:40 Trying the bug fix. 16:13:43 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 16:14:02 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:14:24 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:24 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:16:07 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-133-157.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:17:33 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:17:55 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:12 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:18:13 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:50 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.162] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 people need more loving here... 16:23:35 Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:48 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:25:10 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:25:21 zorkmoid: I don't think so. 16:27:17 Who is minion? I know that "he" is a bot, but what it for and how to use it? 16:27:45 minion: help 16:27:45 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 16:28:17 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 16:29:42 Okay, time to go to bed. Goodbye everyone! 16:29:49 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.87.57] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:30:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:33 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB8FC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:32:59 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 16:35:10 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:35:46 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:36:50 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:18 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:37:26 ehu [~ehu@109.35.198.134] has joined #lisp 16:37:38 -!- attile_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.10.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:37:45 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 16:38:00 Does anyone know of a good article describing how to make the decision between factoring and fixing an existing code base and throwing it out and starting from scratch? 16:38:04 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:05 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:38:19 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-213.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:40:01 minion: memo for [6502]: sicp doesn't teach scheme, it teaches structure and interpretation of computer programs. Try htdp to learn scheme. 16:40:01 Remembered. I'll tell [6502] when he/she/it next speaks. 16:40:32 ThomasH: mostly comes with experience ... dunno any suchb ooks.. 16:40:43 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1fb7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:50 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:35 agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:44 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:43:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:44:50 Not that I'm a big fan of Joel on Software, but this is sort of an answer -> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000007.html 16:44:55 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 16:45:00 Vivitron [~AndChat47@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:24 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:35 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.35.198.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:46:38 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.178] has joined #lisp 16:48:49 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:33 ThomasH: I agree that NIH is good (as is (your own) code reuse)). But outsourcing to the extreme is good too. They should not have fired that guy who subcontracted his job to China, they should have promoted him big time! 16:50:04 ThomasH: it's a question of threshold level, each having his own. 16:51:10 ThomasH: IMO you almost never want to throw it out and start from scratch unless you have everyone on your team who wrote the entire codebase. There is real-world knowledge about actual issues in the codebase 16:51:12 If you have a flawless and well documented library that fits just nicely, no need to rewrite it. If there's a bug and it's clear and clean enough to let you patch this bug yourself, still good. For worse situations, you'll start to suffer. How much do you want to suffer? 16:51:25 It also depends on the size of the module. 16:51:44 If there's a bug in a function, it's often faster and will give a cleaner result, to just rewrite it from scratch. 16:51:45 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:52:08 If you have a bug in 100,000 LoCs, well, perhaps better to find the problem and *patch* it. 16:52:17 Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:19 ogamita: I don't think we're talking about rewriting single functions, I thought the question was about an entire codebase for a project 16:52:25 And that's where NIH is good: it's easier to find a bug and patch your own code. 16:52:37 rewriting a single function is part of factoring and fixing an existing code base 16:52:47 Yes, it all depends on the size of the code base. 16:52:54 ogamita: if you rewrite from scratch you will probably have more bugs to fix though 16:53:24 Not necessarily. If you start from sound axioms and generative rules, you should obtain a good result. 16:53:38 ogamita: so you are assuming you are smarter than whoever wrote it before 16:53:56 and they didn't pick the same sound axioms and generative rules that you are going to pick 16:54:19 -!- paolo-m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:04 I agree that rewriting code that was written by people that should be banned from owning a compiler is a good idea, but any old and large code base will *look* like that when you don't understand it 16:56:04 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:56:25 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 16:57:34 all too often people will rewrite something in sound axioms and generative rules to make it smaller, and find out that all the extra code in there was for things like fixing crashes in out-of-disk conditions on windows XP when using old versions of .NET, or handle a broken implementation of SJIS that was shipped for a few years and so on and so forth 16:58:23 jasom: And that is where the calculation becomes hard to make. If you learn the old and large code base only to learn that it isn't worth salvaging, you always feel like you wasted time. But you can't figure that out until the time has been wasted. 16:59:40 ThomasH: well, I've never seen a code-base that was even barely functioning that I couldn't learn *something* from. You might even say things like "oh, really doesn't work that well for this problem so let's not use it in the rewrite" 17:00:35 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:00:40 And poking around and understanding the old code base is such a small fraction of the time it will take to rewrite that it's probably a good idea unless you know for a fact that the people working on it were underqualified and didn't understand the problem domain. 17:01:02 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has joined #lisp 17:01:54 The middle ground is to slowly rework it to reduce interdependencies so that you can replace it gradually 17:01:55 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:23 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:26 jasom: that's what Joel says: essentially, you're smarter (or at least the Excell team) than most the other people. 17:02:49 -!- liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:20 jasom: Generally agreed. I do have a counter example, though, that is such old code base that the purpose of the functions are completed masked by the gymnastics they perform to execute within the limitations of the ancient system. 17:03:21 liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:03:45 ogamita: in which the Excel team refused to rewrite their old dialog box code? 17:03:54 jasom: well, in lisp programming it's a little different: we more often write down our axioms (in form or declarative sexps) and our rules (in form of macros), so the code is generated automatically. But programmers of most other programming languages just refuse to see written in source files those axioms and rules, and want to see only the generated code. Too bad for them. Are them dumber for that? Who knows? 17:04:01 jasom: In that case, I have the theory manual and the coding manual, so it is probably easier at this point just implement new code from the manuals. 17:04:11 -!- liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:28 liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:04:32 ThomasH: on the other hand, looking at the sources, you can see fast enough if it's good or not. 17:05:16 -!- liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:31 jasom: well we can agree, that any work output is worth something, in the context where it was created. What you will learn, is that the context of design of that code base is not yours. 17:05:36 Well, DUH! 17:05:53 (I mean, the chances to find the same context in 4D are low). 17:06:33 ThomasH: well if you can't decypher the functions then you aren't twice as clever as the people who wrote it according to Brian Kernighan 17:07:08 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB9F5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:03 jasom: perhaps being clever is also avoiding to get caught in futile mind traps. 17:08:25 liweina__ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 jasom: That is completely true with respect to being clever about coding within the limitations they had. I don't want to be that kind of clever. 17:09:01 -!- liweina__ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:28 liweina__ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:10:13 -!- liweina__ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:31 ThomasH: in any event throwing out a whole codebase and starting from scratch is, in my experience, more often a bad idea than a good idea. If you feel there is overwhelming evidence that it is a good idea, then maybe it is a good idea. 17:10:36 liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:10:56 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:24 -!- liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:40 liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 ThomasH: and the main question to answer is "What can I do better than the people who wrote this before? What will I do worse at first?" if you can answer those convincingly then you have a good case 17:12:40 -!- liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:44 liweina__ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB9F5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:17 -!- liweina__ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:27 jasom: Indeed. I have 2 cases in front of me. In one case, I think the code base is workable, in the other, it isn't. 17:13:42 jasom: Using your criteria. 17:13:42 gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 17:14:23 liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has joined #lisp 17:14:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.95] has left #lisp 17:14:34 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:00 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 17:16:27 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:26 grrrr... continuations are ... evil at times 17:18:27 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:46 -!- liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.237.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:18:49 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:21:37 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:28 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00330c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:26:32 -!- Saturn_ [~rose@113.14.57.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:57 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.211] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 17:34:17 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:35:40 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:53 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:59 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:39:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:43:48 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:57 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:41 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 17:50:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:49 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:10 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-216-175-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:52:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:52:40 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:53:19 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 which implementation is SCL? 17:55:13 Scieneer Common Lisp? 17:57:33 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:39 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 ASau [~user@46.115.66.208] has joined #lisp 17:59:29 Yes. 18:01:06 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:03:15 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:06:11 SCL hasn't had a release in a while, but I heard they are planning a new release at some point. 18:07:02 Well, there is no new supercomputer every two months either. 18:07:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:08:36 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:00 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:58 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:41 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:11:17 -!- hydan [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:12:18 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc01-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:07 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 18:13:41 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:44 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:07 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:15:24 gendl: where did you hear that ? 18:15:36 from Douglas Crosher 18:15:47 bondar [~bondar@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:16:13 We had a paid license entitlement a few years ago and haven't had a chance to use it much yet 18:16:22 i was asking about current status of my entitlement etc 18:16:45 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboo14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 he let me know how to keep using it, and made mention of "the next SCL release" as part of his comments 18:17:11 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 18:17:24 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 18:17:32 i'm not going to repeat any more here because it's a personal email, i'm not sure how much he intends for public dissemination yet 18:18:19 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:24 gendl: have you used another implementation instead, or just not lisp? 18:20:20 we were (and are) using Allegro and LispWorks for commercial distributions. 18:20:51 recently we got our stuff ported to SBCL and CCL but just as a technical exercise so far, no commercial activity from our end around those platforms 18:21:06 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-aeyvbfjxtalpigco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:21:47 this weekend I cleaned up the mess that was our package definitions in our bootstrapping process, which was hindering progress on ABCL, 18:21:55 so now ready to try ABCL again... 18:22:25 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:22:46 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:22:51 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.66.31] has joined #lisp 18:25:49 if i can find some uninterrupted time blocks to do so these days i start to believe in uninterrupted time like I believe in Santa Claus. 18:26:19 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 18:26:39 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:09 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:31:19 PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:31:28 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 18:31:59 Having trouble remembering what magic to use in a lambda list with &key in order to initialize a parameter when the argument was ommitted or NIL 18:31:59 i.e. i'd like the follwoing form to return 88 not NIL (funcall #'(lambda (&key (foo 88)) foo) :foo nil) 18:32:23 can't do that 18:32:47 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:32:56 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 18:33:49 (funcall #'(lambda (&key foo) (or foo 88)) :foo nil) => 88 18:33:59 mon_key: (funcall #'(lambda (&key foo) (when (not foo) (setq foo 88)) foo) :foo nil) => 88 18:34:14 Don't use setq 18:34:27 jasom not what i'm asking. I know how t check in the BODY :) 18:34:29 (funcall #'(lambda (&key foo) (let ((foo (or foo 88))) foo)) :foo nil) => 88 18:34:44 mon_key: yes, but there's no other way. 18:34:48 mon_key: you can't do that 18:34:54 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:35:05 OK, so my option is to use a supplied-p parameter and check in the body for (and supplied-p (null foo)) 18:35:14 (funcall #'(lambda (&key foo &aux (foo (or foo 88))) foo) :foo nil) =>88 18:35:19 mon_key: no need to use supplied-p 18:35:32 you can do it in the lambda list :) 18:35:40 -!- PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:35:43 I forgot about &aux 18:35:55 gendl: it's not a bad thing to do 18:36:15 i learned that in 1990 at Univ. of Michigan when I was first learning Lisp. 18:36:15 jasom: yeah, what i was wondering but if to use &aux I might as well just let bind in the BODY :) 18:36:28 then i think i forgot about it in 1991 or 1992 18:36:49 *jasom* prefers &aux to a let in the body 18:36:55 &aux works like a let* right? 18:37:03 Yes. 18:37:06 *stassats* prefers not to read jasom's code 18:37:07 gendl: no a let that happens after the lambda bindings 18:37:24 -!- bondar [~bondar@41.72.193.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:27 a let or let* 18:37:42 let* 18:37:42 18:37:43 er it is let* 18:38:10 (lambda (x y &aux (a (car x)) (b 2) c) (list x y a b c)) == (lambda (x y) (let* ((a (car x)) (b 2) c) (list x y a b c))) 18:38:40 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:38:53 jasom: OK so &aux is the magic I was forgetting - thanks for the reminder. Though i now vaguely remember reading that use of &aux has hairy corner cases??? 18:39:11 gendl: why both allegro -and- lispworks? 18:39:39 mon_key: it's bad for those who want to read your code 18:39:49 clhs 3.4.1.5 18:39:49 Specifiers for &aux variables: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dae.htm 18:39:51 yeah Or maybe that is what i'm remembering :) 18:40:11 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:31 meh, bad for stassats to read your code; good for me to read your code. 18:41:05 i like using &aux when returning something, like, uhm, something stupid like (defun first (list &aux object) ....) 18:42:18 jasom: bad for anyone, now people have to learn not just LET and LET*, but also &aux 18:42:22 for no good reason 18:42:39 they have to learn the standard anyway 18:43:06 stassats: so we should get rid of let* too 18:43:10 it's just a nested let 18:43:53 What's bad with &aux is that it puts implementation stuff in the interface (the signature of the function). 18:44:04 yea, whose dumb idea was &aux? 18:44:11 Does it ever have a purpose? 18:44:14 jasom: i'd rather not take extreme positions 18:44:35 in defstruct, it does, some, but they should have limited it to defstruct 18:44:51 foom: for defaulting a keyword paramter when the parameter is nil? 18:44:55 zorkmoid_ [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has joined #lisp 18:44:57 Maybe at one point it had some different implementation behavior? Like it inlined the evaulation of the aux expression maybe? 18:45:00 mmm... 18:45:04 what happened there.. 18:45:05 stassats: why is it bad for you to read if you already know what &aux is? 18:45:25 foom: it's handy when writing macros, because it lets you insert variables without having to parse a body with docstring and declarations. 18:45:26 jasom: the argument list is for, well, arguments? 18:45:29 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:31 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1fb7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:54 jasom: because i don't look in the argument list for variables 18:46:16 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 18:46:40 pjb: I'm not sure what you mean; how does &aux in a macro parameterlist help that? 18:46:59 So to be clear, according to the standard there is no effective difference between use of &aux in lambda list and use of let* in body? 18:47:07 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:47:12 mon_key: nope 18:47:19 ok i'll use let* then :) 18:47:23 thanks all 18:47:28 you can also use let 18:47:35 (defmacro m (name lambda-list &body body) `(defun ,name ,(append lambda-list '(&aux my-variable)) ,@body)) 18:48:16 stassats: got it. 18:48:23 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:48:44 vs. (defmacro m (name lambda-list &body body) (let ((doc-string (parse-doc-string body)) (declarations (parse-declarations body)) (actual-body (parse-body body))) `(defun ,name ,lambda-list ,@docstring ,@declarations (let ((my-variable)) ,@actual-bod)))) 18:48:55 pjb: so long as there isn't already an &aux. :) 18:49:12 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:49:37 Well, you can indeed test for it. 18:50:07 yea, it just becomes a little bit less of a clear win. 18:50:47 (defmacro m (name lambda-list &body body) `(defun ,name ,(append lambda-list (if (member '&aux lambda-list) '(my-variable) '(&aux my-variable))) ,@body)) 18:51:21 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 18:54:04 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:01 PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:57:40 if NANoDataExists(Result) then exit; 18:57:40 FEndLookupReturnCode := ERR_NONE; 18:57:40 {does endorsement have eligibility requirements? Flag in DB} 18:57:40 if CheckEndForEligibility then begin 18:57:43 {yes, it does. Does end qualify?} 18:57:46 if not VerifyEndEligibility then begin 18:57:49 Result := ERR_END_NOT_ALLOWED; 18:57:52 Premium := 0; 18:57:53 ieh 18:57:56 exit; 18:57:59 end; 18:58:02 end; 18:58:12 oops, pasted in the wrong window 18:58:15 what license is this code under? 18:58:17 sorry ppl 18:58:27 foom: and FTR, according to Barry Margolin on C.L.L: "When the &-keywords were added to Maclisp's DEFUN, LET was also pretty new. At that time, the common way to create a bunch of local variables for a function was to enclose the body in a PROG. This was considered a waste of PROG (which has other semantic effects -- it creates a RETURNable block and allows GO tags) and a waste of an indentation level. &AUX was created as a simple 18:58:27 convenience" https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/gOAFLFmYKc4/icJc3khmUdkJ 18:58:28 is it GPL? will it consume our souls? 18:58:31 green_ [green@nat/redhat/x-pyssmhyqbqdnuxci] has joined #lisp 18:59:00 PCChris__ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:02:34 -!- PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:06 carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has joined #lisp 19:03:22 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 -!- PCChris__ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:04:43 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09a9ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:08:35 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:23 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:23 alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:39 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-42-96.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:12:42 Pascal? :) 19:12:44 -!- agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:50 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:12:59 *felideon* had to google braces-as-comments 19:13:05 t 19:13:36 cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-55-125.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-55-125.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:01 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-48-106.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 -!- capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has quit [Changing host] 19:16:57 capisce [~srodal@oftn/member/capisce] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 19:38:12 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:16 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:24 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:44:14 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:47:12 pspace [~andrew@96.24.64.159] has joined #lisp 19:48:18 -!- terjesb [~terjesb@ec2-54-247-167-129.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:24 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-bkuadbibqlrzhyis] has joined #lisp 19:53:49 supporting CL on obsolete platforms make me want to rename asdf/compatibility into asdf/common-lisp and import that instead of cl everywhere. 19:55:15 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:59:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:59:33 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:59:41 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-171-73.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:00:51 felideon: Delphi to be exact, not the best way to spend your day :D 20:01:00 -!- pspace [~andrew@96.24.64.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:01:17 is the CL stream facility usable in the same way as a unix pipe? 20:01:46 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:01:51 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-128-106.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:02:15 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:03:12 agumonkey [~agu@63.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:59 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:33 carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has joined #lisp 20:04:35 heatsink [~heatsink@mobile-130-126-255-198.near.illinois.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:52 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:10 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:08:34 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:52 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 20:09:06 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:12:49 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:18 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:13:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:13:23 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:29 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:14:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:14:28 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:23 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:52 nikodem [~nikodem@user-46-112-91-9.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:16:02 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:15 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:16:42 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:02 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:17:22 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:18:33 no 20:18:45 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:58 Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:00 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:15 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:21:39 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:48 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental blackout] 20:22:53 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-124-109.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:25:53 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboo14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:30 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboo14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:29:56 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:29:57 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:31:12 dim: you could implement pipes with Gray streams. 20:31:21 and threads. 20:31:40 or lparallel.queue 20:32:16 but I'm back in the innards of postmodern csv copier and sending messages functions where it's processing the bits for unicode 20:32:24 damn it's complex 20:32:32 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:12 dim: I just use iolib.socketpair 20:33:27 Fare: sounds the right thing to do indeed. 20:33:39 it's for the next step jasom 20:33:40 er iolib.sockets:socketpair 20:34:10 I'd like to understand why the data that I have and is apparently utf-8 is sent as something else to PostgreSQL by postmodern on the wire 20:34:26 if I write that data to a file, then PostgreSQL is happy with the content 20:34:55 of course I'm then using :external-format :utf8 rather than the postmodern utf8 magic 20:35:10 which make me think that there's a bug in the postmodern utf8 logic 20:35:48 or postmodern is rewriting it ? 20:36:20 it's doing a transformation step to go from unicode code points to bits and bytes 20:36:24 and it's non trivial 20:36:27 (and buggy) 20:37:10 i'd recommend that before making claims about the buggyness of postmodern, you isolate the actual problem. 20:39:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:08 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@fsf/member/insomniasalt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:19 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:40:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.254.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:56 BW^- [~Miranda@5-15-168-89.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #lisp 20:42:15 brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:42 where can i find a Socks 4/5 client implementation? 20:46:29 H4ns: I'm working on it, been working on it for some hours already 20:46:39 I woudn't just say it for fun 20:46:53 -!- am0c is now known as am0cd 20:47:03 I'm trying another approach where I feed it pre-formated data following the PostgreSQL TEXT format 20:47:08 -!- am0cd is now known as am0c 20:47:45 the file :external-format :utf8 that works and the direct copy protocol that does not is pretty clear to me, tho 20:48:10 H4ns: I'm talking about the mnca fork with code that didn't make it to Postmodern yet, for extra clarity 20:48:33 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.66.31] has left #lisp 20:54:22 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 dim: not sure if you mean quicklisp, but it's been merged already. https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/pull/22 20:54:52 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 or is there more code 20:55:42 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 impomatic [~digital_w@87.114.138.192] has joined #lisp 20:58:02 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 21:01:36 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:02:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:03 carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has joined #lisp 21:02:28 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:04:07 ludston [~patience@CPE-121-216-102-83.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:04:25 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:21 oh nice 21:05:23 will have to test 21:05:31 is it already in Quicklisp? 21:05:57 dim: marijnh is generally pretty good about merging pull requests, for the record. 21:06:21 dim: that pull request was closed 4 months ago. I would imagine it's in QL by now 21:06:58 either that, or quicklisp isn't following the branch with the pull in it. 21:07:02 I should schedule proper sleeps once in a while, I would have checked this morning 21:08:00 dim: probably-> # 21:08:33 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:29 when I tried that the symbol open-copier was not exported in cl-postgres at all 21:10:07 so there's something to review here, most certainly how I did test :) 21:11:46 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:51 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:44 any SOCKS 4/5 proxy client implementation anywhere? 21:15:50 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:19:29 BW^-: no 21:20:05 tsocks (: 21:20:29 kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has joined #lisp 21:21:20 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-216-175-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 21:22:05 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:13 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@5-15-168-89.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:16 -!- capisce [~srodal@oftn/member/capisce] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:15 capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 21:24:21 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:24:57 -!- green_ [green@nat/redhat/x-pyssmhyqbqdnuxci] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:09 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 21:33:53 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:37:13 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:40:38 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:38 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:41:43 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abot143.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:41:59 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abot143.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:44 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboo14.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:45:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:24 AeroNotix [~xeno@abot143.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:46:12 pkhuong: that's interesting; I'm thinking now, the FSF stance on dynamic linking is that it does not get around the redistribution clause; so would you be violating the GPL if you distributed a closed source app along with tsocks? 21:47:29 the easiest way to solve that dilemma is by not distributing tsocks. 21:47:41 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:02 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:48:18 foom: but RMS claimed even encouraging people to link with a shared library violates it (see clisp and readline) 21:48:45 clisp and readline is a pile of hooey. 21:48:57 I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so :) 21:49:23 until a judge rules one way or the other I'm not going to risk being the test-case of course 21:49:30 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09a9ab.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:49:34 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:52 Well, fundamentally, the concept of copyright is flawed. The GPL tries to use the copyright laws to fight the copyright concept. You cannot expect 100% consistency here. 21:49:59 Quite simply: if you don't distribute the GPL'd code, the license doesn't apply to you. It is thus irrelevant what it says. 21:50:32 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 21:50:48 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-46-112-91-9.play-internet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:09 If you *do* distribute tsocks with your program, you may or may not have a problem. I can't tell you that from here. :) 21:51:30 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:38 pjb: quite the opposite, the GPL tries to use copyright laws to leverage the copyright of the owner into achieving a specific goal: that of no binary-only code. No copyright would be something more like BSD 21:51:43 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:52:11 jasom: GPL is not trying to ignore copyright ("no copyright") it's trying to fight it. 21:52:53 pjb: GPL wants all binaries to ship with source. No copyright would be all binaries are freely redistributable, and source could still be a trade-secret. 21:52:58 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:27 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 21:56:05 jasom: you're right. 21:56:50 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:57:03 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:59:26 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:02:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:03:13 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:03:27 segv-_ [~mb@dslb-094-222-249-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:30 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-222-249-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:31 -!- segv-_ is now known as segv- 22:04:14 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:31 -!- kofno [~kofno@64.197.96.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:18 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:10:41 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:10:52 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:11:19 -!- breakds changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: cl-fad 0.7.0, Hunchentoot 1.2.10, SBCL 1.1.3, Yason 0.6.3 22:12:08 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.194.39] has joined #lisp 22:13:22 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:30 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 22:20:02 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.108.205] has joined #lisp 22:20:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:15 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:21:37 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:23:05 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:21 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:23:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:29 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:53 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 22:27:43 brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:57 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.108.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:49 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:54 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1fb7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:29 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:36:36 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abot143.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:37:02 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.140.255] has joined #lisp 22:40:46 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 22:41:24 hi 22:41:54 how could I remove the nth element of a list? 22:42:49 pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has joined #lisp 22:43:18 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:34 take the n-1th ocns with nthcdr, set its cdr to be its cddr? (possibly fencepost on my part) 22:43:41 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:26 Posterdati: make a copy without the element that you don't want. maybe using cl:remove 22:44:51 (append (subseq '(a b c d) 0 i) (subseq '(a b c d) (1+ i) 4)) 22:44:53 Random thought/question - should something you intend to use that way perhaps be something other than a list? 22:46:09 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:46:22 H4ns: could it work? 22:46:49 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:32 Posterdati: (loop for x in list for i from 0 unless (= i n) collect x) 22:47:36 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:48:16 H4ns: better! 22:49:14 That's pretty expensive. 22:49:15 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 ChibaPet: *yawn* 22:50:08 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 22:50:09 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:50:22 =shrug= 22:50:42 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 22:50:43 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:50:47 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 22:51:47 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 22:51:48 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:54:44 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:04 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 22:55:05 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:55:37 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 22:58:03 Thra11 [~thrall@94.8.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@172.1.59.137] has joined #lisp 22:58:52 LispPlotter is a rat's nest of dependencies 23:00:38 to split a string on a #\Tab, split-sequence is recommanded? 23:01:03 yes 23:01:45 [6502] [4e0ce6f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.230.242] has joined #lisp 23:02:06 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:34 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:02:42 -!- swanstomp [~swanstomp@78-105-198-180.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:48 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:56 green_ [~green@dsl-207-112-90-225.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:58 can I access a class-allocated slot without going through an instance of the class? 23:04:35 Dalek_Baldwin: "yes", through the mop and the class' prototype instance 23:04:45 <[6502]> question: ... is this ok? (mapcan #'copy-list '((a b c) (d e f) nil (g h))) ... i would say that it's not because modifies quoted lists... 23:04:45 [6502], memo from ogamita: sicp doesn't teach scheme, it teaches structure and interpretation of computer programs. Try htdp to learn scheme. 23:05:23 [6502]: it's not. use mappend? 23:05:32 Dalek_Baldwin: consider using a special variable if you feel that urge 23:05:44 6502: it doesn't modify quoted lists 23:05:48 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-10-180.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:05:58 yeah that's what I'm doing to work around it, but it seems less clean 23:06:10 Dalek_Baldwin: it is not less clean 23:06:21 [6502]: oh, wait, adeht is right, you're fine, sorry 23:06:26 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 23:06:46 <[6502]> I don't understand why it's fine 23:07:01 because it copies the elements (with copy-list) before nconcing them. 23:07:19 <[6502]> Bike: copy list copies the list, not the elements 23:07:50 6502: so? mapcan does not modify the elements of a list 23:08:03 your code is like (nconc (copy-list '(a b c)) (copy-list '(d e f)) ...) 23:08:31 <[6502]> ohhh ok 23:08:34 <[6502]> now i get it 23:09:23 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:12:31 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:48 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-028-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:18:06 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:12 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:22 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 23:18:25 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:59 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 23:19:40 ASau` [~user@46.115.88.171] has joined #lisp 23:20:10 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:38 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:39 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:23:25 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:23:39 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:23:51 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.66.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:48 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:25:03 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 23:27:51 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:35 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 23:28:42 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.140.255] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 23:28:58 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:29:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:49 -!- [6502] [4e0ce6f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.230.242] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:38:28 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 23:38:52 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #lisp 23:39:24 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:21 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:56 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:04 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:48 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-48-106.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:56 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:48:00 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:49:38 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:49:58 -!- Vivitron [~AndChat47@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 23:50:55 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:06 -!- jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:27 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:45 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52:18 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 23:52:24 jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-222-249-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 23:54:57 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.140.255] has joined #lisp 23:56:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00330c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:57:58 is there a way to (declare) inside the loop macro? 23:58:26 of-type, i think 23:59:12 Bike: nothing has yelled at me yet! Thank you