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00:40:44 Thra11 [~thrall@54.247.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:05 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0EC9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:41:10 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:41:11 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:46:14 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-151-90.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:33 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:49 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:45 sw2wolf: LISP = http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/lisp/ 00:53:20 then lisp-13 /= CL-42 00:53:40 it should include all lisp dialects ? 00:54:29 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:58 -!- yeboot [~quote@c-98-234-17-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:00:19 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:33 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.159.98] has quit [Quit: good night!] 01:01:41 enymo` [~user@c-76-17-216-101.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:53 i got a raspberry pi, and it's been a little hectic trying to first 01:01:53 install emacs24 since there isn't a snapshop for arm based cpu's, and 01:01:53 just found there isn't an available sbcl package...there's ECL, and 01:01:53 was just wondering what was your take on it [19:00] 01:01:56 01:02:04 oops 01:02:46 i got a raspberry pi, and it's been a little hectic trying to first install emacs24 since there isn't a snapshop for arm based cpu's, and just found there isn't an available sbcl package...there's ECL, and was just wondering what was your take on it 01:02:46 01:03:31 stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.164.78] has joined #lisp 01:03:47 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04:47 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:06:15 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-50-140-197-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:06:51 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 hiato [~nine@41-135-76-179.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:07:44 http://lispm.dyndns.org/ 01:08:06 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:10 enymo`: I'd rather use ccl on raspberry pi. 01:08:29 http://www.informatimago.com/articles/raspberrypi/ccl-sur-qemu.html (old) 01:08:38 I ran it on the real RaspberryPi. 01:08:58 thanks, i'll look into ti 01:09:07 any reason why you'd prefer it though? 01:09:35 Since then, a few bugs have been debugged so be sure to take the most recent version from the repository. 01:09:40 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:09:50 enymo`: I'd expect compilation to be faster with ccl than with ecl. 01:09:58 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host114.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:10:22 For development, ccl will be better. Now for deployment ecl may be a great choice, depending on the application. 01:10:34 For embedded stuff, I'd use ecl definitely. 01:10:40 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:11:25 cool, looks like i have more studying to do... 01:11:36 regarding compilation and deployment 01:11:50 k0001 [~k0001@host90.186-109-98.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:12:02 pjb: is the ccl package "cl-mcclim"? 01:14:21 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:32 pjb: (just realized ccl is clozure...which is good because i've been meaning to learn more about it since i hear its name all the time but i was learning/using sbcl at the time) 01:15:07 mcclim is not ccl, mcclim is a gui system 01:15:25 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:29 yea, also just realized that the link pjb wrote shows how to install ccl 01:15:50 mcl is the ancestor of ccl, but they're not the same thing as mcclim :-) 01:16:02 i wonder if there's a way to install sbcl like that...but i'll start with ccl 01:17:17 enymo`: there is no SBCL for ARM yet. 01:18:27 pkhuong: :) hey i just read some of your discussions re ECL vs SBCL at http://www.bitchx.com/log/lisp-f/lisp-f-01-Apr-2010/lisp-f-01-Apr-2010-00.php 01:18:56 pkhuong: thanks for the heads up 01:19:17 pkhuong: would you use CCL too then, or ECL? 01:19:57 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-192-102-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:37 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:49 Probably CCL unless I had to. 01:20:59 *I had to use ECL, that is. 01:22:30 pkhuong: thanks, it's kinda like what pjb said, i.e. unless you'd develop for embedded devices, right? 01:23:50 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:23:57 or you want to use it a scripting engine embedded in a larger program. 01:23:59 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@54.247.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:23 got it 01:25:39 Thra11 [~thrall@54.247.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:07 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:28:11 Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839FCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:54 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:30:03 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p548397C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:34:47 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.164.78] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 01:38:38 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:44 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 01:40:14 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 01:40:30 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:42:37 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:47:24 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:52 jrajav [~jrajav@75-148-8-253-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:12 eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:12 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@c-24-13-247-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:48:12 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 01:49:38 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:17 -!- tali713 [~talifree@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 01:54:18 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:56:19 brguy [~idonteven@177.17.151.226] has joined #lisp 01:56:22 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@54.247.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:39 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:58:22 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:00:43 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:03:42 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 02:06:41 -!- eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has quit [Quit: That's it, I quit!] 02:09:34 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:10 cfy` [~ilisp@183.140.234.184] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@75-148-8-253-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 02:10:54 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.17.151.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:11:28 -!- hiato [~nine@41-135-76-179.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Nothing so gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums.] 02:14:44 suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has joined #lisp 02:15:45 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.20] has joined #lisp 02:15:46 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.20] has quit [Client Quit] 02:16:54 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:17:31 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@183.140.234.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:37 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:49 -!- huangjs_ [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:19:04 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 02:19:59 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e325.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:11 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1b36.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:25:25 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.20] has joined #lisp 02:30:06 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:37:32 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:35 xliweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.58] has joined #lisp 02:37:53 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-8-204.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:04 what's an easy way to concatenate symbols? 02:38:05 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:15 -!- xliweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:23 On unix, where does quicklisp store the fasls? I need to force a rebuild. 02:39:09 more specifically: i have a string "prefix-", and a keyword symbol :key, and i want to merge them to produce :prefix-key 02:39:35 oops, i mean i want to merge them to produce the non-keyword 'prefix-key 02:40:17 brguy [~idonteven@177.17.151.60] has joined #lisp 02:40:34 robot-beethoven: alexandria has a symbolicate function for that. or you could just do what it does, make a symbol out of concatenated strings 02:40:44 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:42:49 Bike: symbolicate does it! thanks 02:43:36 WarWeasle: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF is I think what you want 02:44:06 Bike: Thanks! 02:46:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:50 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:57 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:34 -!- pnq 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sw2wolf is now known as sw2wolf{away} 03:33:49 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:40:35 azkane [~ahm@187.143.103.219] has joined #lisp 03:41:03 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 03:41:15 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:29 WarWeasle: Quicklisp currently uses asdf2, which on unix, by default, stores fasts under ~/.cache/common-lisp/... 03:44:40 *fasts -> fasls 03:45:09 I usually just do: 03:45:16 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:45:16 nowl [~nowl@pool-173-48-242-12.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:20 rm -r ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 03:45:29 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:45:51 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.20] has joined #lisp 03:48:35 Forty-3 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[~James@75.112.160.200] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:26 benny [~user@i577A2E81.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:24:48 -!- xliweinan [~liweinan@123.117.220.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:16 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:32:26 that was some serious ASDF hacking. 06:32:30 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 06:33:11 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has joined #lisp 06:36:12 am0c [~am0c@125.152.202.104] has joined #lisp 06:38:02 werwerwer [~1@158.181.207.255] has joined #lisp 06:38:56 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host90.186-109-98.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:41:09 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:15 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:22 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:44:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:44:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:46:37 For a slot with :allocation :class, do I need to allocate an instance to set the value? 06:47:10 flip214: either that, or you can go through the class' prototype. 06:47:27 flip214: i usually use special variables instead. 06:48:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:48:33 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:48:45 -!- codygman [~codygman@pool-173-74-60-248.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:49:24 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:27 H4ns: closer-mop:class-prototype, I guess 06:49:30 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:37 flip214: yes 06:49:47 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:52 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 06:52:57 thank you 06:53:30 what's the advantage of using specials? No closer-mop needed, more standard. Anything else? 06:54:26 it is just more straightforward. most lisp programmers understand specials, fewer understand class prototypes 06:57:59 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:35 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04:14 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:43 -!- kanru`` [~kanru@62-50-219-183.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:09:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:09:58 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-244-160.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:12:10 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-16.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:26:51 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:28:08 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e325.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:28:40 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e325.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:30 xliweinan [~liweinan@123.117.220.36] has joined #lisp 07:31:21 -!- dlind_ [~dlind@130.243.8.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:45 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:36:26 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:39:30 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:39:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:40:07 edgar-rf_ [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:14 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:44:32 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:49:16 coodoo [~coodoo@122-116-169-40.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:39 -!- coodoo [~coodoo@122-116-169-40.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:55 coodoo88 [~coodoo88@122-116-169-40.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:24 -!- edgar-rf_ [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: dead] 07:53:09 -!- coodoo88 [~coodoo88@122-116-169-40.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:57:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:57:48 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:36 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has joined #lisp 08:03:51 xcombelle [~xcombelle@92.146.229.23] has joined #lisp 08:04:25 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442008.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:04:59 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:08:20 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 08:09:33 hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:09:43 Hotroot [~hotrootso@pool-96-247-115-55.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:52 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:12:01 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:16:08 hiato [~nine@41-135-76-179.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:18:06 So, I always hear about this mind bending practice of learning lisp. I've read some of a common lisp tutorial, and looked at some code, but I'm just not getting it. 08:18:29 Is there a specific point where I'm supposed to appreciate lisp? 08:19:25 it depends 08:19:40 what do you usually program in? 08:19:50 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pynasoqutiezdqfd] has joined #lisp 08:20:25 snowylike: I figure that's the problem, my language is JS 08:20:40 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441032.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:20:56 how much do you know about javascripts object system? 08:20:59 So it's not like I'm being freed from something strict like C++ 08:21:01 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:21:11 snowylike: I know quite a bit about objects in JS 08:21:31 then you also know that it's quite different from java or c++ objects, right? 08:21:40 Indeed, although you can emulate them 08:21:47 yes, you can 08:22:00 well, Common Lisp has CLOS 08:22:18 I quite like the JS approach. 08:22:31 I don't know that much about CLOS, to be honest, but 08:22:38 it seems to be a level of abstraction higher 08:22:46 Hmm 08:22:49 like, you choose what type of object you want 08:22:59 anyone correct me if i'm wrong 08:23:00 I pretty much find most of JS perfect, so it's hard to see the appeal of some things 08:23:03 CLOS can be retrofitted to JS if you want to. 08:23:16 The important bits are class-of and generic-functions. 08:23:29 Thinking about how to implement generic-functions in JS might be useful. 08:23:37 then I wasn't that far off with my feeling 08:24:08 from what I can tell, JS has been modelled after Scheme 08:24:16 That is CL specific, not lisp specific though 08:24:23 What is it about lisp that supposedly changes people? 08:24:41 It just looks weird to me, very clogged up 08:24:54 well 08:25:00 macros? 08:25:08 Well, the JS model is based on partial application. 08:25:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:25:36 Hotroot: it used to be gateway drug to wider PL world 08:25:37 macros are one of the bigger parts of the "lisp feel" 08:25:48 Think about foo.call({}, bar) 08:25:51 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:26:05 p_l: PL? 08:26:10 Programming Languages 08:26:15 Oh 08:26:22 the guy who invented js pretty much said he was trying to make scheme with c syntax 08:26:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:26:32 especially world outside a very thin slice of Algol family 08:26:34 Scheme is a lisp right? 08:26:37 You can do that kind of partial application in Scheme, sure. 08:26:42 Hotroot: right 08:26:52 Hotroot: a bastard kid of Scheme, kind of 08:27:03 So basically lisp doesn't hold a ton of appeal to me because I'm already exposed to it through JS so strongly 08:27:58 I'm looking at haskell too, seems more useful, but I'd like to experience said lisp realization 08:28:03 other than macros and most of CLOS, yeah 08:28:04 Hotroot: well, you might learn few more interesting things, different approaches (especially due to different implementation details dictating different patterns) 08:28:57 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:28:57 Hotroot: I also recommend Prolog in addition to haskell. Also, reading some of the older lisp code and books can be quite interesting - a lot of stuff was prototyped in lisp that slowly filters out into wild 08:29:02 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:45 much of the appeal lisp has for me is that i'm free to express my ideas exactly the way i want 08:29:55 Hmm. I mean if it's not something I'm going to use all the time, and doesn't make me a much better programmer, interest is low 08:29:59 (though that hurts the readability) 08:30:10 That's how I feel about JS 08:30:23 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has joined #lisp 08:30:27 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:30:27 Feels very sandbox-like to me 08:31:16 Hotroot: learning wider scope of programming tools IMO helps make you a better programmer 08:31:32 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:56 (and while retrocomputing isn't exactly a productive hobby, it can serve as nice humble pie to the next hype you encounter) 08:31:57 kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 08:32:20 i wonder 08:32:22 p_l: But if JS has already taught me what I need to know about first class functions, etc. It seems less useful 08:32:33 isn't it a bit far fetch to put Lisp in retro box though 08:32:35 I do mess around in assembly, so I keep a feel of some retro stuff 08:32:36 is it possible to use JS for anything not bound to web applications? 08:32:42 snowylike: Node.js 08:32:43 s/fetch/fetched/ 08:32:52 hydan: Lisp isn't in retro box. oooold lisp code is :) 08:32:56 i thought Node.js was for server-side scripting? 08:33:12 Yup 08:33:13 snowylike: more like a bit crappy VM built out of Chrome's engine 08:33:20 Not just web code though 08:33:23 okay 08:33:28 lisp is a fair bit older than most programming languages in use today 08:33:29 p_l: right, the all uppercase stuff :) 08:33:30 snowylike: with tendency towards callback trees 08:33:39 hydan: not necessarily all uppercase stuff 08:33:42 i've heard about the callbacks 08:33:48 I don't find the V8 engine crappy at all 08:33:51 someone recently complained about them, i think 08:33:52 I'm kind of wondering how long it will take for V8 to overtake SBCL. :) 08:34:02 It's extremely fast and very stable from what I've seen 08:34:19 but quite recently I went through bits of Genera code, and got schooled about possible uses I never thought about :) 08:35:06 Yeah, the core of the node philosophy in a way is callbacks 08:35:07 Hotroot: did they fix the low ability to handle unexpected, non-js errors? 08:35:26 p_l: I've never had a non JS error 08:35:37 Also, it is still in beta 08:35:47 Node has not hit version 1.0.0 yet 08:35:52 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:10 Plenty of big sites use it though, I know at least ebay does 08:36:27 Hotroot: Well, for the typical target of Node.js, I'd got with Erlang. 08:36:41 I use Lisp because I like it, not because x.y.z uses it 08:36:56 That wasn't my point, I was talking about stability 08:37:06 I started using node before any big sites did 08:37:51 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:37:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:37:51 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:38:30 I've heard nice things about erlang, I think it's a decent bit slower than node though 08:40:28 Hotroot: node is faster than erlang ? 08:40:50 I think so, JS in the V8 engine closes pretty close to C++/Java 08:41:03 Eugh, 08:41:17 I think so, JS in the V8 engine benches pretty close to C++/Java 08:41:20 accidentally a word 08:41:31 Last I looked, it was about 25%. 08:41:49 as i know erlang is good at concurrency 08:41:59 how about node ? 08:42:21 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:42:52 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:42:53 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:56 sw2wolf: It is itself single threaded, but is good at doing things asynchronously 08:43:12 It will move on to other code while doing IO, etc. 08:43:12 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has joined #lisp 08:43:30 Typically people run multiple instances of it, one for each core 08:43:52 Hotroot: Erlang smokes Node on concurrency 08:44:37 kanru`` [~kanru@217.243.168.51] has joined #lisp 08:44:38 Proof? 08:44:44 not sure about hipe's performance, but it wasn't made for single-threaded computation (the whole optimized float path in interpreter and hipe is due to some crazy people making 3D modeling software in it) 08:45:02 um.. erlang will automatically start a thread for each core 08:45:24 Erland essentially reimplements processes within the program. 08:45:45 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@92.146.229.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:55 Hotroot: Erlang was built for handling ATM switch traffic. Node puts classic reactor pattern on top of browser's JS implementation that happens to support threads 08:46:06 but as for proof, let me check the posts :) 08:46:14 So, it has some advantages there -- the significant benefits are probably in the distributed task idioms. 08:46:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rzbxixacedzodobj] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rzbxixacedzodobj] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:46:34 (Since erlang's actual processing speed is really lousy) 08:46:43 brguy [~idonteven@177.17.149.75] has joined #lisp 08:46:51 They are writing some multi-core stuff for node atm, but I've heard that web-server software typically runs faster with one process per core rather than going multi-core 08:46:59 Zhivago: yes, without HiPE it's computation speed isn't fast 08:47:19 Hotroot: it's called "we don't know how to handle concurrency, so better not" 08:47:19 *hydan* was reminded of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzkRVzciAZg ending 08:47:20 Even with HiPE it is pretty crap, as I recall. 08:47:38 They know how to handle concurrency -- multiple processes. 08:47:45 It's what erlang does, too. 08:48:05 Not sure why you seem to dislike node so much, but that's not true. 08:48:12 It's just a question of if to trust the OS to implement the processes or not. 08:48:19 As I just said, they are indeed working on multi-core stuff, it just isn't done yet 08:48:40 Hotroot: I was saying that bit about concurrency regarding the notion that web-server software typically runs faster with one process 08:48:51 Hotroot: it's not specific at Node.js 08:48:54 A node fan was not the one who showed a performance increase with one process per core vs a multicore app 08:49:21 http://blog.mysyncpad.com/post/2073441622/node-js-vs-erlang-syncpads-experience 08:49:33 I heard the YAWS beats Apache ? 08:49:35 (above concentrates on concurrency support) 08:49:48 sw2wolf: it did. It's also, afaik, among slowest web-serving stuff on Erlang 08:50:12 p_l: I haven't read your link yet obviously, but note that it is over 2 years old 08:50:35 The problem with claims like "beats Apache" is "at what?" 08:50:41 Node is like 3 years old 08:50:54 It's easy to beat the crap out of apache if you don't do all of the nonsense that apache does. 08:51:17 It's not an interesting claim, really. 08:51:34 Zhivago: Yes, and it was mentioned (with other variables) in the study that is source of that claim... so I didn't call upon that one :) 08:53:20 Zhivago: what nonsense exactly? 08:53:22 i guess "beats apache" is short for "usable in real life" 08:53:29 i haven't worked with apache yet 08:53:40 Take a look at the 6 bazillion modules it comes with. 08:53:54 Apache isn't the go-to for speed anyway, how do you "beat" it? 08:53:57 Apache is an ecosystem for web platforms. 08:54:22 do you have to install a bazillion things before it works or what? 08:54:27 Hotroot: the thing is... For concurrency and reliability I'd go with Erlang, because it was designed from scratch for that. And it's not abandoned project. The whole thing is built around certain methods and primitives that I find fitting for long-term, reliable service. It's not bashing Node.js 08:55:08 snowylike: it's a web server... you install it, it serves webs 08:55:11 sorry that my remark, intended just as suggestion of something to look into and possibly learn from (as a bit different approach to same problems) turned into something like that 08:55:40 I don't know enough about erlang to get into a long thing about it, I just try to defend JS/node when possible as they get a lot of flak 08:56:08 clone_of_saturn: so it's a big spider that haunts my computer every now and then with insanely long and thin legs? 08:56:09 Personally, I'd avoid erlang, since it seems to be slipping rapidly into senility. 08:56:21 Instead, I'd rip off all of their good ideas. 08:56:40 Got to go, but note that your article was 2/3ds back in node's lifetime, and that they are working on a multi-core lib 08:56:52 Cya'll later, thanks for the advice 08:56:54 -!- Hotroot [~hotrootso@pool-96-247-115-55.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:57:42 what are the signs of programming language senility? 08:57:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003b04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:51 Zhivago: senility in what way? (and which "good ideas"?) 08:57:57 It's a serious question :) 08:59:19 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 08:59:49 http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/07/trouble-with-erlang-or-erlang-is-ghetto.html is a reasonable overview -- particularly from the standard library onward. 08:59:55 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:03:07 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 09:04:01 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 09:04:59 Zhivago: none of the items on that list are rapid new developments 09:05:11 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:05:15 clone: Yes, and? 09:05:39 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:05:44 then erlang isn't rapidly slipping into senility, but was senile from the start 09:05:59 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:22 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:06:45 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:54 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:07:10 Zhivago: I have to applaud the author for being one of the few people who actually provided sensible criticism (got a bit of listening related to some... less sensible people, that unfortunately turned Elixir into, well, crap-in-making) 09:09:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-16.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-16.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:11:34 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:11:41 (and outside of implementation details, syntax is... well... subjective. I know people who thrive with Prolog syntax and can't stand lisp) 09:11:47 -!- kleppari [~spa@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:11:56 agumonkey [~agu@183.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:04 -!- am0c [~am0c@125.152.202.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:12:45 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:14:12 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 09:17:12 dbushenko [~dim@37.214.84.139] has joined #lisp 09:22:00 Zhivago: why cannot i visit http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/07/trouble-with-erlang-or-erlang-is-ghetto.html ? 09:22:10 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:22:13 Perhaps you are evil and god is punishing you? 09:22:18 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:22:18 wecing [80d0072a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.208.7.42] has joined #lisp 09:22:30 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:22:55 oh, so serious :P 09:23:35 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 09:23:47 Prolog syntx is like Erlang ? 09:24:17 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-126-23.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:24:20 brazilianguy [~idonteven@177.17.151.33] has joined #lisp 09:24:26 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.17.149.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:28 Erlang syntax is inspired by prolog 09:24:49 the first Erlang compiler has been done in Prolog 09:25:03 then once bootstraped, the second Erlang compiler was done in Erlang 09:26:55 then both Prolog and Erlang has Ugly syntax compared with lisp's elegant syntax :) 09:27:09 In the eye of the beholder, etc. 09:27:44 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:27:55 How about the eys of programmer ? 09:28:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:28:20 who are programming ... 09:28:48 eh... anyone has any idea why sbcl complains "The value 34422341876 is not of type SIMPLE-STRING." when I'm calling (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-accept my-socket)? 09:29:15 I kind of like the syntax, most of the time. 09:29:48 tvaal: prolog's syntax ? 09:29:52 But then again, you kind of have to get used to it if you're to manage to do it every day. 09:29:55 Erlang. 09:29:57 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-188-202.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:30:28 Prolog I found more... "interesting" than anything else. 09:30:52 there's an Erlang frontend to have lisp syntax 09:31:02 https://github.com/rvirding/lfe 09:31:07 Prolog seems has limited domain to use ? 09:31:33 dim: interesting 09:32:24 dim, yeah, there are others as well. 09:32:27 -!- wecing [80d0072a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.208.7.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:32:40 myx [~myx@pppoe-211-174-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 09:33:14 http://joxa.org/ 09:34:09 I guess all those erlang dialect is not ripe especially using OTP 09:34:28 I try to stick to CL, Elisp and Clojure though. 09:34:48 Don't really know. Haven't checked them out. 09:37:12 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-176-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:38:07 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has joined #lisp 09:43:14 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.202.175] has left #lisp 09:51:16 -!- theos is now known as Guest74980 09:51:57 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:55:21 -!- Guest74980 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:58:02 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:01:02 -!- ori8 [~oir8@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:01:32 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:02:06 nostoi [~nostoi@254.Red-81-32-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:20 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:02:49 am0c [~am0c@125.152.202.104] has joined #lisp 10:03:26 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.10.27] has joined #lisp 10:03:35 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:03:51 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:04:17 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:04:45 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:05:49 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sxfqzxkktvgrmtef] has joined #lisp 10:06:41 how did my slime repl become read-only? 10:07:06 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 10:07:13 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 10:07:54 -!- hiato [~nine@41-135-76-179.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Nothing so gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums.] 10:09:34 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:12:10 did you use C-x C-q? looked at lossage yet (C-h l) 10:19:50 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839FCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:20:00 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@254.Red-81-32-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:20:41 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:21:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:23:35 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.10.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:25:08 -!- brazilianguy [~idonteven@177.17.151.33] has quit [Quit: Don't use quit!] 10:26:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:34:56 Yinne [~Daisy@109.58.105.189.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 10:38:30 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@c-3d42e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:38:53 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:39:18 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:24 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.47.196] has joined #lisp 10:39:28 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:42:31 paul0 [~vrsmn@177.16.148.120] has joined #lisp 10:44:47 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:51 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:13 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:49:00 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:52:51 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-151-90.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:59 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:53:59 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:53:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:55:26 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 11:02:36 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:02 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:09 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:03:09 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 11:04:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@125.152.202.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:06:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-16.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:07:17 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-63-237.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:07:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:08:36 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:09:52 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:09:56 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:11:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:14:15 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.81.102.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:14:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:14:39 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-244-160.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:14:49 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:16:07 nikodem [~mikey@user-109-243-108-241.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:17:33 -!- Yinne [~Daisy@109.58.105.189.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:18:01 Is there a git mirror for slime? 11:20:43 leo2007: i use git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git 11:21:17 well, used... 11:21:22 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:21:37 that one seems to be mostly sbcl 11:22:09 I am using https://github.com/nablaone/slime but it seems to stop updating. 11:22:24 is there an idiomatic way to iterate through two lists at the same time ? two ways I can think of are writing a zip function (which will cons), or using dotimes + elt which is inefficient 11:22:42 I'm curious about what people usually use 11:22:47 galdor: LOOP, DO, DO* 11:22:47 (loop for i in list1 for j in list2 do (something-with i j)) 11:23:01 (mapcar (function do-something-with) list1 list2) 11:23:05 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:23:05 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 11:23:05 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:23:27 mapcar can map several lists ? I didn't know this, thank you 11:24:00 galdor: and map can map several sequences! (map 'vector (function list) '(1 2 3) #(a b c) "Hello") --> #((1 a #\H) (2 b #\e) (3 c #\l)) 11:24:19 leo2007: http://boinkor.net/archives/2012/09/git-lives-again-somewhere-else.html 11:24:29 well I have hyperspec pages to read then :) 11:25:30 jdz: that is nice. thanks alot. 11:25:43 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:25:43 (map 'list (lambda (&rest args) (map 'string (function identity) args)) "Hello" "World" "Howdo" "youdo") --> ("HWHy" "eooo" "lrwu" "lldd" "odoo") 11:27:48 and of course it's its own inverse: (map 'list (lambda (&rest args) (map 'string (function identity) args)) "HWHy" "eooo" "lrwu" "lldd" "odoo") --> ("Hello" "World" "Howdo" "youdo") 11:28:24 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-194-252.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 11:28:38 nice trick 11:29:49 -!- paul0 [~vrsmn@177.16.148.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:30:21 paul0 [~vrsmn@187.58.227.220] has joined #lisp 11:30:34 -!- nikodem 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with large sums.] 13:43:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:15 -!- pjb-d` [~user@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has left #lisp 13:49:35 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:38 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 13:51:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:54:50 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:55:21 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 13:55:23 arrk13 [~arrakis24@78-0-130-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 -!- Amoz [~Amoz@nl107-187-231.student.uu.se] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 14:03:06 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-84.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:24 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:04:24 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:24 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:06:07 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-211-174-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:07:23 bitonic [~user@dyn1217-84.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:07:43 hello. the reader conditionals #+and #- only work for *features*. is there a way to evaluate a form depending on a variable? 14:08:36 so that, if the variable is nil, the form doesnt appear in the expanded macro at all. 14:10:09 arrk13: reader macros work at read time; are you sure you need reader macros? 14:10:22 i mean, #+ and #- 14:10:49 jdz, i want something like C's ifdef to prevent a part of code showing up in an expanded macro. 14:10:56 arrk13: `(foo bar ,@(when variable (list variable)) whatever) 14:11:12 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:11:12 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 14:11:12 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 14:11:32 #+#.(cl:if '(:and) '(:or)) 14:11:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:11:59 -!- hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:10 arrk13: you know that macros are functions, and under your control, and you are the one to tell what it expands into, right? 14:12:12 (but for macros, the backquote and ,@(when ...) is better) 14:12:16 Krystof: can you point me to where i can read more about that #+#. construct? 14:12:23 clhs #+ 14:12:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 14:12:26 clhs #. 14:12:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 14:12:33 thanks. 14:12:46 (but for macros, using ,@(when ...) is better. Trust me) 14:12:59 yes, i am realizing it right now. 14:16:21 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-158-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:29 bniels [~niels@p4FD6CC6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 Amoz [~Amoz@nl107-187-231.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 myx [~myx@pppoe-211-174-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:45 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 14:24:08 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.93.105] has joined #lisp 14:24:39 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:24:58 willijar [~quassel@134.151.144.246] has joined #lisp 14:26:36 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:00 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:28:46 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 In SBCL, if I want to declare a vector of 8-bit bytes in such a way that array references will be efficient, what type declaration should I use? 14:33:14 '(unsigned-byte 8) for :element-type 14:33:26 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:37 and then (declare (type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) array)) 14:33:44 Yeah, but for a declare? I resorted to (AND SIMPLE-VECTOR (ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) *)) 14:34:04 oh. simple-array 14:34:06 loke: that's an impossible declaration 14:34:19 stassats`: no code is really fast. 14:34:19 yeah 14:34:26 I typed SIMPLE-VECTOR, not VECTOR 14:34:34 I mean the other way around 14:34:38 (check-type ,memory (and (vector (unsigned-byte 8) *) simple-vector)) 14:35:31 EarlGray [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:32 those types are disjoint too 14:35:49 Well, it didn't give me an error, but if I changed to what you suggested: 14:35:51 (check-type ,memory (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))) 14:36:08 then I get an error saying: Derived type of #:MEMORY-1055 is 14:36:08 ; (VALUES (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*)) &OPTIONAL), 14:36:08 ; conflicting with its asserted type 14:36:08 ; SIMPLE-VECTOR. 14:36:09 Oops 14:36:12 sorry for the spam 14:36:15 won't happen again 14:36:27 (I thought I made it one line) 14:36:59 so, you declared as a simple-vector elsewhere, or used SVREF 14:37:05 I used svref, yes 14:37:24 svref works only on simple-vector 14:37:27 That's the thing. I want it to be a simple-vector, b 14:37:34 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:37:42 a simple-vector with element type of (unsigned-byte 8) 14:37:55 simple-vector is a vector of type T only 14:37:59 oh 14:37:59 ok. first, get your representation (data structure) right. Use specialised vectors of (unsigned-byte 8). Second, tell as much as you can to the compiler, without lying. 14:38:03 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:38:29 if you mean a simple-vector which can contain all sorts of stuff, but happens to contain only (unsigned-byte 8)s, there is no declaration for that 14:38:47 right 14:38:54 so, if you want a simple vector of ub8, then use the type i showed you in the beginning 14:39:09 if you mean a vector which can hold only (unsigned-byte 8) but cannot be displaced, adjusted, or extended, then that is a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) 14:39:20 the two types are disjoint 14:39:30 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:31 OK, I must have lost track of what I'm doing, because now after I used your suggested type, and replaced my svref with aref, the code looks right (i.e. no expensive array lookups) 14:40:19 TDT [~user@5317-nat00.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 [if you really want the first one, then (a) you are weird and (b) you can fake it with something like (flet ((myref (x i) (the (unsigned-byte 8) (aref (the simple-vector x) i)))) ...)] 14:40:48 No this looks good now 14:41:05 If you're wondering, I wanted to write a Brainfuck compiler 14:41:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:41:14 I wasn't wondering 14:41:35 I'm doing it just to prove a point, that a Brainfuck interpteret is an example where CL is much faster than C :-) 14:41:42 However, if we're talking silly languages, https://github.com/munificent/vigil made me smile 14:42:11 Krystof: I read that. Nothing wrong with that. I've seen developers work exactly like that. 14:42:16 -!- dbushenko [~dim@37.214.84.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:43:00 loke: you mean faster to write? 14:43:06 stassats`: faster to run 14:43:27 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 well, good luck 14:43:39 I just did 14:43:48 stassats`: Ah wait. There is a catch 14:43:56 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 that just proves that your C code is bad 14:44:06 stassats`: I'm not allowing you to call the C compiler from your code 14:44:11 only in-language features allowed 14:44:30 But on the Lisp side I can generate code and compile it 14:44:37 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:44:41 what does that prove? 14:44:51 stassats`: nothing to you and me 14:45:02 stassats`: but it proves things to people who doesn't know Lisp 14:46:12 why do I have: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "ecore_con_init" ? I my file I have (define-foreign-library libecore-con (:unix "libecore_con.so") (t (:default "libecore_con"))) (use-foreign-library libecore-con) (defun ecore-con-init () (foreign-funcall "ecore_con_init" :void)) 14:46:14 that CL:COMPILE is in the standard? 14:46:23 pkhuong: yes, partly 14:46:39 pkhuong: that's one of the points I want to make 14:46:48 kiuma: why do you use foreign-funcall instead of define-alien-routine? 14:47:05 why not ? 14:47:09 arrk13: #+#.(cl:if (cl:< cl-user::a 42) '(:and) '(:or)) 14:47:15 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:52 oh, CFFI, never mind. 14:48:06 pkhuong: the same question is true for CFFI 14:48:14 nasty code contest ? 14:48:14 just replace define-alien-routine with defcfun 14:48:15 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:48:17 lol 14:48:23 If it has similar logic to sb-alien, it'll do the case/hyphen translation automatically. 14:48:33 pjb-v: you gave me an idea 14:48:35 thanks 14:48:50 pkhuong: it does, and it also can be overridden 14:48:58 I can use this Brainfuck compiler to show what the reader is 14:48:59 stassats`, there it could make sense, but I often do more things than just calling forign functions 14:49:14 kiuma: try loading the library in a separate file. 14:49:17 *foreign 14:49:38 kiuma: that still doesn't make sense 14:49:52 arrk13: #+ reads in the KEYWORD package, so you have to qualify the symbols. for #+ and #- (:and) is true and (:or) is false. 14:49:59 pkhuong, into package for example ? 14:50:05 '(#+(and) 1 #-(or) 2) 14:50:11 jeti [~user@p548E998F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:18 kiuma: into load-shared-object, for example. 14:52:04 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:28 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:53:18 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:32 stassats`, why ? in don't need to export a 1-to-1 symbol for the C function, so what's the problem in foreign-funcall ? 14:53:42 s/in/with/ 14:54:40 a lot of wrapper libraries have a package with only raw foreign function and type definitions, and a user-facing one that builds on top of the raw package. The split makes it easier to generate the first package semi-automatically, or at least without thinking, and development is then much easier. You get completion, argument lists, easy tests at the REPL, ... 14:54:45 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:55:15 kiuma: well, if you don't want your code to be easy to write and readable, then you can use foreign-funcall 14:56:09 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:56:44 -!- xliweinan [~liweinan@123.117.220.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:59 it also moves definitions to a single place and gives them names, so lower chances of errors due to duplication errors. 14:57:13 xliweinan [~liweinan@123.117.220.36] has joined #lisp 14:58:26 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 14:58:46 -!- willijar [~quassel@134.151.144.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:21 brguy [~idonteven@189.27.92.236.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 pkhuong, true but then I have a pollution of symbols. I started using defcfun but I soon found foreign-funcall more practical (mainly because the ffunction was callend only by the wrapper) 15:00:04 pollution of symbols? what does that mean? 15:00:27 well I'm just doing a bit more than a 1-to-1 translation 15:01:54 k0001 [~k0001@host90.186-109-98.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:02:10 stassats`, I'd have a cfunction named for ecore-main-loop-quit only used by a function named main-loop-quit 15:02:37 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:02:39 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:39 dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:02:40 and main-loop-quit is the only to be used 15:02:55 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has joined #lisp 15:03:01 i see no problem with that 15:03:14 kiuma: CL symbols are sustainable. Don't worry about your symbol footprint. 15:03:33 I'll do that 15:04:20 pkhuong: sustainable as in they get GCed in some way, or sustainable as in they just don't take up enough space to matter? 15:04:22 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:05 sustainable as in there's a fixed number of them, at program writing time. 15:05:21 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:22 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:29 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivdxjuqlraesnegb] has quit [] 15:05:35 sykopomp: sustainable as in you can easily sequester them in packages. 15:05:57 jdz: there's not really a fixed number of them. 15:06:02 pkhuong: gotcha. 15:06:18 for example https://github.com/kiuma/CL-ECORE/blob/master/src/ecore.lisp#L161 what's the advantage of having a defcfun ? 15:06:21 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1217-84.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:06:59 (ps. I know I have too many macros. I'll make them functions soon) 15:08:23 ah.. I have one defcfun too :) 15:10:21 kiuma: easier for exploratory programming. You just translate the (potentially-relevant parts of the) .h once, and then you can try and find a nice lispy way to expose that library without having to think about foreign function declarations all the time. 15:11:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-192-102-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:30 Easier to look for bugs as well. One pass over the defcfuns to make sure the foundations check out, then you can focus on the logic. 15:12:35 Ok. I can experiment on ecore_con then 15:14:19 -!- bniels [~niels@p4FD6CC6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:30 but in your way, wouldn't putting define-foreign-library and use-foreign-library along with defcfun cause the same Undefined alien problem I had before ? 15:16:34 gendl [~gendl@198.228.232.71] has joined #lisp 15:17:27 which is why you load the foreign library in a separate file. 15:17:57 it's just a style-warning though, you can disregard it 15:18:00 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:12 it's just a style-warning, though. You could also just make sure to load the library before writing code. 15:19:37 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.182.105] has joined #lisp 15:19:52 -!- browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.182.105] has left #lisp 15:20:01 ok 15:21:00 I just found out that SBCL accepts "(list 1 :: 2)" and returns "(1 2)" ... didn't know that "::" is allowed. 15:21:48 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:57 -!- gendl [~gendl@198.228.232.71] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:22:08 oh man....... 15:22:21 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.176.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:22:26 gendl [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-071.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:41 wbooze: can you stop saying things like "oh man......."? 15:22:48 path separator or qualifier...... 15:22:52 -!- gendl [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-071.mycingular.net] has left #lisp 15:23:29 gendl [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-071.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:48 stassats`: yes i will 15:24:06 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.182.105] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 flip214: :: reads a symbol from the keyword package. After that, I'm not sure what happens and if it's supposed to. 15:24:27 *flip214* wants to write "can you stop saying things like «can you stop saying things like 'can you stop ... '»" ... 15:25:04 flip214: go on, we will probably not miss you 15:25:28 pkhuong: yes, TBH I expected to get something like :|| back. 15:25:55 jdz: you know, after a short time I get bored and write some script to do that for me 15:25:59 i expected an error 15:26:54 (list 1 : 2) gives me an error 15:27:25 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:10 so is that lonely :: in the middle of the list equivalent to (read nil) then = 15:29:12 ? 15:29:27 -!- gendl [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-071.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:29:49 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.96.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:25 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:29 flip214: ok, I think I see what's going on. Reading in the KEYWORD package interns as needed. Interning read is (basically) implemented as switching *package* and just READing the next token. 15:30:40 pareidolia [~michaelk@ip104-121-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 Hi all! 15:31:04 kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 15:31:22 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.99.172] has joined #lisp 15:31:46 Can someone tell me whether it is possible to wrap a quoted list in something so that the reader doesn't uppercase all symbols? Thanks! 15:31:49 pkhuong: and READ of ":" gives an error, but that gets caught somewhere? 15:32:03 flip214: uh? 15:32:07 or why is that "::" eaten completely? 15:32:43 pareidolia: see readtable-case. 15:33:13 btw, for FORMAT "~:{~}", can I say that there are not sublists but CONS pairs? I want to print an ALIST. 15:34:41 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 15:34:42 pareidolia: :invert is nice because it's backward compatible, while preserving case information. 15:34:48 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sxfqzxkktvgrmtef] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:07 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:23 pkhuong: Whoa, this is some heavy stuff... Thanks 15:35:23 Daisy [~Daisy@c-3d42e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 flip214: no 15:36:34 thanks, already got a MAPCAR instead. 15:36:58 pareidolia: I'd skim the section on the reader. It's important to understand how case-folding works. It all happens when text is converted to data, so by the time you could "wrap" a quoted form, the symbols are already upcased. 15:37:26 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-194-252.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:37:35 -!- Amoz [~Amoz@nl107-187-231.student.uu.se] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 15:38:21 pkhuong: That's what I mean 15:38:44 -!- Yinne [~Daisy@95.209.75.115.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:40:58 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 15:41:29 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:00 pkhuong: Can I use macro characters to make something like this work: (format t "~a" '(fOo Bar BAz)) ? 15:43:05 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:44:57 pareidolia: you could do that with a reader macro, yes. 15:46:37 pkhuong: I got (named-readtables:in-readtable :modern) working, but now I need to enter "FORMAT T" :) 15:47:17 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:47:50 When using :allocation :class and then deriving child classes, they share the parent slot. I write into the closer-mop:class-prototype of the child classes, storing a different value for each child class. 15:47:59 what could I do here? 15:48:10 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.212] has joined #lisp 15:48:21 Is there something between :allocation :class and :instance? 15:48:44 it says what to do right there in the clhs page for defclass 15:48:55 -!- nikodem [~user@user-109-243-108-241.play-internet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:56 "If a class C1 defines such a shared slot, any subclass C2 of C1 will share this single slot unless the defclass form for C2 specifies a slot of the same name or there is a superclass of C2 that precedes C1 in the class precedence list of C2 and that defines a slot of the same name." 15:49:04 -!- paul0 [~vrsmn@187.58.227.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:20 Ah, so I will try to re-define the slot in each child. 15:49:32 Didn't think that would make a difference. 15:49:46 or else use some data structure like a hash table mapping classes to values 15:50:02 engblom [~user@dsl-83.148.217-102-dynip.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 15:50:02 -!- engblom [~user@dsl-83.148.217-102-dynip.ssp.fi] has quit [Changing host] 15:50:02 engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 15:50:06 or use functionality in your implementation (e.g. sbcl has a class-plist) 15:50:15 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has left #lisp 15:50:54 Hmmm, I could hang data on the symbol properties, too... thanks 15:50:56 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:14 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:53:08 hmm, simply naming the slot isn't enough ... the initform isn't inherited. Have to redefine the whole slot. 15:53:54 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.99.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:54:02 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:55:11 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7481.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:15 Krystof: thanks, works this way. 15:56:09 is there some special reason that a (:initform (error ...)) triggers for class-prototype? wanted to make sure that there's a value given, but that's no that nice for the prototype, of course. seems to occur only on a redefinition, btw. 15:57:07 pkhuong: The documentation shows some definitions, but I have no idea how to use these macro characters... 15:58:22 nikodem [~user@user-109-243-108-241.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:58:27 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:59:10 pkhuong: Were I to define "%" as such macro character, would that allow me to do something like (format t "~a" '(fOo Bar BAz)) 15:59:32 pkhuong: Oops, this: (format t "~a" % '(fOo Bar BAz) %) 16:01:00 % is probably a bad choice. Also, you probably don't need a terminator. Just let it readone form. 16:01:33 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:34 I have never used reader macros before, this is about reader macros, right? 16:01:50 yes. 16:02:14 I was confused, I thought it was a feature of the library 16:02:54 Have you tried just setting readtable-case to :invert? 16:03:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003b04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:03:51 CLiki says "...all-lowercase symbol names become uppercase..." in this mode 16:04:37 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has left #lisp 16:04:43 AFAIK, the class prototype should not be initialized, but perhaps it's admissible that it become initialized in some circumstances. 16:04:50 It's probably unspecified. 16:05:15 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:23 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.99.172] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 and? 16:06:06 That's not what I want 16:06:17 -!- nikodem [~user@user-109-243-108-241.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:07:34 pareidolia: have you tried it? The important bit is that case *information* is preserved. 16:07:41 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:09:08 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:09:46 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:51 pareidolia: the clhs entry for set-macro-character has an example called "single-quote-reader", you should be able to alter that minimally to get what you want (e.g. by binding *readtable* to your :modern readtable before the call to read) 16:10:40 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:10:41 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 nikodem [~mikey@user-109-243-108-241.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 pkhuong, the info on CLiki seems incorrect 16:14:29 (format t "~a" '(aB bC cD abc ABC)) prints the following: (aB bC cD abc ABC) 16:14:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-212.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:59 no, it's correct. Printing takes the inversion into account. 16:15:44 So indeed it preserves info... Interestingly only "format" works now, not "FORMAT" 16:15:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-161.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:16:38 Vivitron: This example makes it seem that I can do without named-readtables, am I right? 16:16:39 FORMAT is inverted into lower case, and all CL symbols are upper case. 16:17:28 The example seems to be simple enough for my n00b mind to grasp 16:18:34 pareidolia: yes, but I think pkhuong's solution is nicer if the behavior is suitable 16:21:54 wasn't someone working on per-package intern behavior? 16:22:14 so that you could use case-preserving read, and a case-folding intern for the CL package, or something like that? 16:22:31 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:58 That sounds like having cake and eating it... 16:23:43 (defun single-quote-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (list 'quote (read stream t nil t))) 16:23:45 Oops 16:24:03 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.182.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:24 it's not strictly compatible, because you can of course have lowercase symbols now, using |quoting| 16:24:32 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:24:47 but it seems like it'd be a pretty nice option. 16:25:46 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:29:54 rannger [~rannger@58.248.98.128] has joined #lisp 16:30:09 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-31-164-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 16:31:31 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:32 can you help me with this cffi problem please ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/134458 16:33:10 sorry already solved 16:36:07 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-161.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 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[Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:29 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:04:32 bitonic [~user@217.39.1.81] has joined #lisp 17:06:13 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:45 EarlGray [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has joined #lisp 17:09:04 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:26 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:18 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 Hi, please see this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134459 when speed and safety are altered the function doesn't make any sense anymore! 17:18:56 how come? 17:20:07 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 17:20:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-53.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:50 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 17:23:22 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.212] has left #lisp 17:23:50 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.99.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:23:56 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:05 hi Fare. 17:24:14 hope you had a good Holiday season. 17:24:41 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:24:48 dto: thanks! 17:27:46 gendl [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-071.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 only (declaim (optimize (speed 1) (safety 0))) gives the desired outcome 17:28:31 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.147] has joined #lisp 17:28:37 Fare: how are you doing? 17:28:53 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.147] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:58 Fare: i'm working on a print book. to gather up some expanded/revised versions of stuff I've written, plus some new things. a collection of essays. 17:29:58 won't be out soon, tho. it's a 2014 thing probably. 17:30:25 Hi, is there a standard way to wrap (with-compilation-unit () ...) around Slime's compile-and-load-file ? 17:30:37 dto: what topic? 17:33:16 Fare: various Lisp topics. 17:33:41 I might title it "Informal Lisp" <---- the softer side, human factors, policy, etc 17:38:12 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:39:07 interesting 17:39:12 I'm eager to see that 17:39:22 I have input, but probably only things you already know 17:39:37 have you read the "cult of dead programming" article? 17:40:02 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2950 17:41:09 i'll take a peek now. 17:41:28 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:42 -!- gendl [~gendl@mobile-198-228-232-071.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:43:05 brguy [~idonteven@189.27.92.236.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:43:35 Fare: ok, gave it a quick read. 17:49:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:51:20 jtza8 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[~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:48 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 18:59:15 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:31 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:05 k0001 [~k0001@host82.186-108-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 kpreid_ [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 dbushenko [~dim@178.121.75.142] has joined #lisp 19:08:12 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 19:08:27 kpreid__ [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:51 -!- deadlytoah [~Thunderbi@14.38.151.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:09:44 hi people 19:09:49 I'm having some trouble with methods 19:09:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:51 -!- kpreid__ is now known as kpreid 19:10:00 I have a specialized method being called correctly 19:10:08 paste the code 19:10:11 then at the end of it, I recall the same method with different parameters 19:10:11 https://github.com/Ralt/intel-8086-emulator/blob/master/src/opcodes.lisp#L15 19:10:22 but the "generic" method isn't called 19:11:12 so, what do you call? 19:11:14 it just prints the rest 19:11:19 instruction 19:11:19 How do you reacall it? 19:11:24 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:11:26 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:29 (instruction first-param 2nd-param) 19:11:41 -!- dbushenko [~dim@178.121.75.142] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:43 Ralt: no, how do you call it so that it triggers the problem? 19:11:50 snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:06 ok so no (call-next-method ) it wouldn't work with call-next-method to change the arguments on which dispatching is made. 19:12:14 uh? what do you mean? 19:12:23 Ralt: try (trace instruction) 19:12:29 where? 19:12:29 rather, how would i call it so that i can see it? 19:12:47 stassats`: I definitely don't understand what you mean. 19:12:55 (defmethod m ((o class1)) (call-next-method (make-instance 'class2))) is not conforming. 19:13:03 maybe it's me being dull... 19:13:11 Ralt: before calling the code that calls instruction. 19:13:12 Ralt: (instruction #x81 '(#x81)) works here. 19:13:12 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:19 Ralt: you just pasted a piece of code 19:13:28 how do i invoke it so that i see the problem? 19:13:32 pjb: non-conforming? It's not allowed to replace the arguments on a c-n-m? 19:13:33 Ralt: so e.g. (instruction #x81 '(#x82)) prints "WINNINGWINNING"? 19:13:49 sykopomp: not an argument on which dispatching is being made. 19:14:04 pkhuong: yeah, it's the (instruction #xfc '(#xfc #x80...)) that doesn't call the "fallback" method 19:14:14 stassats`: oh.. 19:14:20 pjb: non-T, or does that apply to all primary arguments? 19:14:21 from the disassembler.lisp file 19:14:24 sykopomp: this would require recomputing the list of applicable methods, and this is not done. So you'd get random implementation dependant results = nasal demons. 19:14:31 there is the disasm function calling it 19:14:36 after reading a binary file 19:14:54 pjb: and are you allowed to change the object and its data if the object passed to c-n-m is the same class? 19:14:59 sykopomp: can't change arguments to c-n-m if it changes the applicable methods. 19:15:01 sykopomp: dispatching. I'm not sure if dispatching is always done on all primary arguments, indeed if no method is specified with T or another class 19:15:09 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003204.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:14 Ralt: well, i don't want to load the whole thing, so i'd rather see an independent test-case 19:15:16 pjb: I'm not using call-next-method, I'm using some kind of recursion with matching pattern 19:15:16 sykopomp: yes, that would work. 19:15:19 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:24 Ralt: goood. 19:15:26 stassats`: yeah... let me show you my slime output 19:15:40 sykopomp: that wuoldn't be too nice to do that, but that would work. 19:15:56 http://paste.lisp.org/new 19:15:56 Ralt: I can't get opcodes.lisp to do the wrong thing 19:15:59 Ralt: I really don't think EQL specialisers are a good fit for x86, though. 19:16:08 my slime output: http://i.imgur.com/OsugK.png 19:16:26 jasom: it should format "END" 19:16:31 It's full text! Use http://paste.lisp.org/new ! 19:17:02 pkhuong: that's the best way I found. I'm open to suggestions though :) 19:17:16 pjb: meh, it's just some output... 19:17:49 Ralt: did you try recompiling opcodes.lisp and disassembler.lisp? 19:17:59 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:18:00 Ralt: well, i still don't know what ndisasm does, what i want is a direct invocation of INSTRUCTION that i can copy and run and see the problem 19:18:20 stassats`: he just doesn't want us to help him. 19:18:29 how can I recompile the whole project with slime? 19:18:38 stassats`: alright, let me get this up 19:18:48 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:18:52 Ralt: you can also (trace instruction) to get some more detail 19:18:58 ,reload-system if you have slime-asdf enabled 19:19:28 jasom: did that, but I don't really get how the output helps 19:19:33 stassats`: looks like I don't have it. 19:19:45 Ralt: paste the output? 19:20:03 wait.. I'm building a pastie first 19:20:21 Inspect #'instruction to see if you don't have methods left over by earlier experimentation. 19:20:25 Ralt: also you may want to use "collect byte" instead of do (setf bytes (append (list byte) bytes but that's orthogonal to the issue you're having 19:20:40 oh, that's nice :) 19:20:45 didn't know that. 19:21:00 oh wait, I saw it before, but didn't remember it 19:21:01 it also saves you the step of reversing it 19:21:15 heh, that's why it's nice to hang out in this room :p 19:22:05 Either way, you'll have a hard time dealing with stuff like 80 /0 ib (add r/m8, imm8) with EQL specialisers on bytes. 19:23:08 even if used just for the opcodes? 19:23:12 snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 Ralt: +1 to pkhuong's suggestion to inspect #'instruction 19:23:22 I thought about dealing with this in the methods 19:23:26 oh well, brb 19:24:03 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:33 snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:46 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:25 snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:29:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-11-47.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:43 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:33:51 Ralt: it gets worse as you handle later instructions. Having to handle ADD or ADC isn't too bad. But BSWAP (0F C8+rd) vs CMOV (0F 4? /r) is messy. 19:34:19 Is vector-push-extend allowed to increase the capacity of a vector by say 20 percent when there's no room to fit an element? 19:34:55 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:01 reb: yes 19:35:07 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:35:26 see the third parameter 19:35:29 clhs v-p-e 19:35:30 vector-push-extend: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm 19:35:51 reb: even by a constant increment. 19:37:10 hagish_ [~hagish@p578E2B58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:26 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abon227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 19:47:08 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:47:54 ebobby [~fms@189.170.27.127] has joined #lisp 19:51:12 Anyone know of a url-manipulating library that isn't part of an http client or server library? In particular I want to encode/decode urls 19:51:23 puri? 19:52:07 stassats`: thanks! 19:55:41 pkhuong: thanks. But an implementation could choose to resize be a constant multiplicative factor to avoid quadratic behavior, right? 19:55:48 s/be/by 19:55:55 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:56:25 stassats`: ah, just saw your reply ... thanks. 19:58:04 reb: well, a really high-performance implementation would likely exploit MMU tricks instead of wasting so much space ;) 20:00:22 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:00:28 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:59 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:05 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:04:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:04:57 pessoa [~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:01 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:04 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:05:04 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 20:07:00 teslalamp [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 20:08:14 -!- teslalamp [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:08 teslalamp [~teslalamp@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 20:09:19 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.218.85.246] has quit [Quit: joining all red shirts in their final fate] 20:13:14 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat00.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:10 orivej [~orivej@broadband-95-84-171-19.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 20:19:19 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 20:30:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:54 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 AeroNotix [~xeno@abon227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:34:13 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:36:58 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:30 \re people 20:41:37 fwiw, the code on its own works http://paste.lisp.org/display/134462 20:41:57 now I feel like it doesn't work just because I didn't recompile everything. 20:42:19 and I'm not finding anywhere on Google for how to do that 20:44:33 Ralt: what platform are you on? 20:44:42 sbcl on osx 20:45:39 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7481.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:41 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-11-172.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:45:49 Ralt: one way is to delete all fasls in your home dir. 20:45:56 where did you install sbcl? 20:45:59 ah right, didn't think about that. 20:46:02 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-55.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:46:16 prxq: I think he means "delete packages and reload" not "recompile" 20:46:37 (there may have been stale defmethods) 20:46:52 ah ok. 20:47:32 Ralt: easiest way is to just restart slime and reload your system. 20:47:43 yeah... I'll do that 20:47:44 find . -name \*.fasl -print -delete # nuclear option 20:48:50 oooh I know! 20:48:56 k0001_ [~k0001@host138.181-1-201.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:48:59 the thing is, I'm actually pretty stupid. 20:49:03 Let's see if that's it... 20:49:53 Yep. I'm stupid. 20:50:08 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-78-23.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:09 I forgot to add opcodes.lisp to the asd file... 20:51:40 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 20:51:57 alright, now that the stupid mistake is solved, let's keep going 20:52:08 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host82.186-108-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:52:13 pkhuong: is there a way you'd recommend to handle disassembling? 20:52:37 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-1-241.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:12 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:54:23 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:55:10 francogrex [~user@109.134.204.151] has joined #lisp 20:56:40 messages? 20:57:10 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:58:09 Ralt: stupid table-driven thing generated from external docs. IIRC, the Linux kernel has a nifty implementation (.. yes, in the kernel.). 20:58:31 kotedo [~Adium@50.56.228.69] has joined #lisp 20:59:27 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:00:12 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@84.235.73.226] has joined #lisp 21:01:23 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:59 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:21 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.93.105] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 21:12:36 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@84.235.73.226] has quit [Quit: Matt_S_G] 21:12:50 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:14 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 21:17:44 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-63-237.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 21:19:56 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:00 jeti` [~user@p548EAB03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:05 cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has joined #lisp 21:22:05 -!- cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:05 cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has joined #lisp 21:22:19 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.93.105] has joined #lisp 21:23:36 How do I read something from stdin and make sure it's a number? I do: (setf n (read-line)) and I'd like to repeat something n times: (dotimes (x n) (print x)), but I get an error saying n is not a real number 21:23:45 -!- jeti [~user@p548E998F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:27:30 cafaro: read-line reads a string. Try read. There are also a couple of functions to get numbers from strings. 21:27:43 okay, thanks. 21:28:23 cafaro: (parse-integer "42") => 42 21:28:44 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:44 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 21:29:44 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:30:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:03 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:32:14 what are the primitive types? I looked in SB-C::*BACKEND-META-PRIMITIVE-TYPE-NAMES* but it doesn't seem it because when I input for example SIGNED-BYTE-32 I get that it's not a defined primitive type 21:32:16 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 arrk13: ok, how would I combine this with (read), I tried the functional approach, like so: (parse-integer (read)), but it gives the error "PARSE-INTEGER: argument 3 is not a string"... 21:34:39 francogrex: what do you mean by primitive types? 21:35:03 There's no primitive type in lisp, only sophisticated types. Like mathematical integers (bound only to the size of your memory). 21:35:41 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 21:35:43 cafaro: forgot to start up your brain this morning? 21:36:15 sorry I meant in sb-c / sb-vm in sbcl 21:36:24 cafaro: READ returns what you give it to read. Give it a string, if you want it to return a string! Type "3" instead of 3. 21:36:37 tdrgabi [~tudor@c83-250-113-174.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:37:03 francogrex: ah, well, then I'd guess it'd depend on the target processor. 21:37:22 pjb: yes! thanks for explaining 21:37:22 is there a tutorial/blog/etc somewhere on how to build an app which allows future plugins? I'm new to lisp so I'll take anything you give me instead of reinventing it badly 21:37:41 cafaro: use the Hyperspec 21:37:43 clhs read 21:37:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 21:37:48 clhs read-line 21:37:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 21:37:51 and so on. 21:38:13 cool, didn't know about that ref, thanks 21:38:19 tdrgabi: AFAIK, there's no tutorial specifically for lisp. 21:38:34 tdrgabi: basically, you'd do: (load "plugin.lisp") and that'd be all. 21:38:42 tdrgabi: all the rest depends on you. 21:38:48 pjb: I imagined it was easier in lisp since it can easily eval code 21:38:51 do whatever you want. 21:38:52 pjb: exactly 21:39:03 pjb: was hoping for "best practices" 21:39:10 but I can start with load 21:39:11 thanks 21:39:15 tdrgabi: see what emacs does. 21:39:20 good idea 21:39:41 Now of course, given more requirements, we may have more advice to give. 21:40:33 I understand. I'll check how emacs does it 21:40:47 I want to offer a limited "api" for the plugins to use 21:40:57 simply "load" seems dangerous 21:42:04 cafaro: (late answer, but anyway. do (parse-integer (read-line)). read-line reads a string from the keyboard, parse-integer reads a integer from that string. 21:42:30 pjb: I'm looking for a way to implement "interfaces" (as in oop interfaces) in lisp and ensure that on load, the plugin doesn't hijack the app 21:43:03 cafaro or instead of those two, you can do just (read), which will read the number and parse it automatically. 21:43:23 arrk13: yes, got it working by just using (read) 21:44:59 pjb: yes but wonder where can I find the list of primtive type names in my implementation. Any sbcl developers can help? 21:48:28 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:10 francogrex: what is a primitive type? 21:50:17 and why do you need to know it? 21:50:33 (describe '*META-PRIMITIVE-TYPE-NAMES*) -> sb-c:*META-PRIMITIVE-TYPE-NAMES* names an undefined function ! 21:52:17 what are you doing? 21:52:55 stassats`: for this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134470 21:53:48 for this what? 21:54:33 to know what types I can use in making an asm function (here I use fixnum) but what else? could I use signed-byte ... 21:54:49 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.39] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 what are the allowed types? 21:54:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:36 I'm hoping to write other asm code (VOP) than xor ! 21:56:01 why do you even need to write asm code? 21:56:43 1 for fun, 2 maybe I would like to embed some asm code into my lisp programs 21:57:09 francogrex: I hear there's a #sbcl. 21:57:29 ok I will try there, hope it's living 21:57:41 How do I create a multidimensional, variable array? The dimension sizes need to be in parens, (n n), but lisp sees this as a function: (make-array (n n) :element-type 'double-float)) 21:57:45 yes indeed there is 21:57:57 clhs list 21:57:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 21:57:59 cafaro: so, how do you make a list of two numbers? 21:58:02 cafaro: try this 21:58:30 stassats`: I already told him about clhs, but he forgot his brains home today. 21:58:44 pjb: two numbers? 21:58:47 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:59:04 cafaro: read a book. 21:59:30 trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-021-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:45 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:00:13 cafaro: (list n n) or 22:00:18 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.27.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:52 but yeah, read some books to start 22:00:59 ok 22:03:25 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:03:34 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