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[~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:19 tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.102.64.200] has joined #lisp 00:36:47 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.169.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:36 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.120.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:41:13 -!- mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:46 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:17 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:52 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:55 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:01 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:54:53 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:05 fms [~fms@189.170.27.127] has joined #lisp 00:55:25 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:57:10 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:57 k0001 [~k0001@host232.186-108-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:59:36 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.102.64.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:59:46 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:51 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:59:59 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.203.27] has joined #lisp 01:00:35 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01:14 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:43 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:03:08 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:31 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:56 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:45 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:02 -!- ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:09:41 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:09:48 I have the following for fiveam http://paste.lisp.org/display/134343 01:10:18 But I get a fail on wrong number of arguments to FORMAT 01:10:35 Is anything obviously wrong with the form I am using 01:10:38 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 I get the same error with even the most basic of test (is (eq 1 1)) 01:19:12 I've basically copied the test form from here http://msnyder.info/posts/2011/12/common-lisp-mustache/ 01:20:55 Guthur: paste the complete error message, with trace and all. 01:21:11 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:53 Did any new info come out about that new CL impl for iOS that was being touted a few weeks back? 01:22:37 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 01:24:56 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:24:59 pkhuong: it's all captured in fiveams fail object 01:25:07 I will try extract the relevant portion 01:25:29 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 01:27:33 pkhuong http://paste.lisp.org/display/134343#1 01:28:59 -!- Yuuhi```` [benni@p54839F64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:30:03 actually I'm now wondering if there is something wrong in fiveam here 01:30:21 when loading via quicklisp it complains about not being able to find a package session 01:30:25 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:11 maky [~maky@37.244.210.227] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:58 pkhuong: ah sorry nvm, some stale fasl issue 01:33:15 i cleared out everything and reloaded, works now 01:33:39 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:11 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:34 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:35:37 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-31-137.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:06 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:38:00 -!- Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@178.74.91.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:38:32 Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@178.74.91.86] has joined #lisp 01:38:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:39:25 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:42:33 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:48:48 -!- 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#lisp 02:38:52 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:09 -!- ioexception [~user@CPE001839838ebe-CM001ac30d4784.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:08 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 fms [~fms@189.170.27.127] has joined #lisp 02:51:13 -!- fms [~fms@189.170.27.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:52:58 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-136-35-72.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:55:11 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:58:44 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 03:00:13 is it normal for makeinfo stumpwm.text to take _forever_ when building stumpwm? 03:00:27 *stumpwm.texi 03:02:22 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 03:05:28 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:06:54 Vivitron 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joined #lisp 03:18:28 spiderweb: I think it's better to ask this at #stumpwm 03:19:50 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:14 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:03 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:20 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:53 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host88.190-224-54.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:26:13 brazilianguy [~idonteven@177.17.144.239] has joined #lisp 03:26:43 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:27:58 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:02 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.17.144.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:31:15 brguy [~idonteven@177.17.144.239] has joined #lisp 03:32:51 fms [~fms@189.170.27.127] has joined #lisp 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[~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 03:47:41 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 03:47:41 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 03:47:51 -!- pjb is now known as Guest65446 03:48:00 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h95.63.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:01 brazilianguy [~idonteven@177.17.147.26] has joined #lisp 03:50:25 -!- brazilianguy [~idonteven@177.17.147.26] has left #lisp 03:53:05 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.17.144.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:55:07 -!- Guest65446 is now known as pjb` 03:55:19 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 03:56:03 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h95.63.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:54 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:02:59 -!- benny [~user@i577A1027.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:07:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:04 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18:01 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:21 Mauricio [~quassel@201.200.91.126] has joined #lisp 04:18:22 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:18:22 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:18:50 hello, anybody there? 04:19:29 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.169.226] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 -!- Mauricio [~quassel@201.200.91.126] has left #lisp 04:20:19 hello hello. 04:21:28 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 04:21:51 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 04:22:38 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 04:26:00 don't do make -j4 when building stumpwm, it won't work. 04:27:52 gigamonkey: not that I know of, but they did say 2013 release date 04:28:26 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC 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#lisp 06:32:39 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:33:02 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:33:48 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:48 Fare [~fare@c-68-81-138-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:02 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:40:10 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.118.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:50:24 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-50-140-197-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:51:23 -!- Fare [~fare@c-68-81-138-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:56:45 nostoi [~nostoi@34.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:46 codygman [~codygman@pool-173-74-60-248.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:13 If I were creating a shopping list in Lisp, what would be the idiomatic way to persist the list data? 07:02:21 Also, do any of you guys use Lisp for your day job? 07:03:54 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:55 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:09:02 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.93.169] has left #lisp 07:09:05 codygman if you don't have any special requirements, then as a sexp 07:09:09 and yes 07:10:51 Bacteria [~Bacteria@c210-49-83-215.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:15:28 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@34.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:15:39 kpal [~kpal@217-12-75-152.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 codygman: if you are interested: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134348 07:16:45 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:17:10 of course you could have more involved needs 07:17:14 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:28 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.202] has joined #lisp 07:22:26 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:22:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:28:30 tetzco [~tetzco@ppp-188-174-54-7.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 07:30:11 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:29 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 07:31:48 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:38:38 <`quote`> what are the differences between lisp and scheme 07:38:41 <`quote`> and I have heard there are like 07:38:46 <`quote`> 20 different lisp flavors 07:38:52 namespaces, continuations, lots of stuff. 07:39:41 ASau [~user@217.118.90.159] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.93.169] has joined #lisp 07:40:35 -!- werwerwer [~1@158.181.220.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:41:13 <`quote`> how significant is the difference 07:41:28 <`quote`> are we talking dialects or is it approaching independent languages 07:41:38 Well, they're not "mutually intelligible". 07:42:04 <`quote`> C and Java are 'mutually intelligible' to most extents 07:42:18 <`quote`> so that phrase can be stretched pretty thin I guess 07:42:21 Not for anything nontrivial. 07:42:39 But, a language is just a dialect with an army and a navy anyway, so I'm not sure how to give you a quantifiable answer. 07:42:39 <`quote`> good point 07:43:29 Posterdati: what's up? 07:43:57 <`quote`> I find the idea of a language to be more along the lines of a species 07:44:00 -!- kpal [~kpal@217-12-75-152.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:44:04 <`quote`> rather than on the basis of a nation 07:44:15 Species aren't very well-defined either, you know. 07:44:23 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 07:44:31 kpal [~kpal@217-12-75-152.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:52 So far as I know, "Lisp" refers to a plethora of different languages, while "Scheme" is rather more narrowly defined. 07:45:02 Clojure is a lisp, isn't it? 07:45:14 Probably. 07:45:16 <`quote`> technically anything that cannot produce firtle offspring with any other thing is a specie 07:45:26 `quote`: Heard of ring species? 07:46:04 <`quote`> yeah 07:46:05 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:46:06 So I'd think that Scheme would or should fall under that same broad category. 07:46:34 Similar (lack of) semantics that I hear about. 07:46:40 Or is that syntax? I forget. 07:46:40 <`quote`> I've been told those are normally regarded as a single specie, but I might be remembering my biology classes wrong it's beena while 07:46:53 Prefix notation. 07:47:05 substitute: syntax, probably. scheme semantics (and CL semantics) aren't trivial. 07:47:06 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:24 not that syntax is either, really, but it's a nice thought 07:47:28 Something about it being written in its parse tree. 07:47:31 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 Or whatever SICP said. 07:48:06 <`quote`> does scheme exist outside sicp 07:48:19 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:48:26 Yes, of course. There are probably dozens of implementations, it's used in work, bla bla bla. 07:48:32 There is #scheme, they'd probably know more about that. 07:48:52 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:49:18 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:20 <`quote`> ah 07:49:31 nostoi [~nostoi@34.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:31 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@34.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:05 <`quote`> I didn't know that channel existed 07:50:20 this channel is for Common Lisp, like it says in the topic. 07:50:46 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 07:51:20 <`quote`> I'm just learning this family of languages, so I'm sorry if I overstepped the breadth of the channel's topics 07:51:46 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Client Quit] 07:52:21 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:52:57 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 07:53:01 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:41 Both Scheme and CL are not practical language but all is worth studying 07:57:19 `quote`: i think you're fine. my pedantic definitions derail is less lisp-related than scheme. 07:59:01 sw2wolf: i'm making a living on cl 07:59:08 dbushenko [~dim@178.121.152.131] has joined #lisp 07:59:13 sw2wolf: don't know what is not "practical" about it 07:59:24 H4ns: What do you do? 07:59:54 H4ns: i mean there is few change to find CL job here 07:59:55 substitute: i work for a healthcare company 08:00:05 H4ns: i mean there is few chance to find CL job here 08:00:22 Thanks Guthur 08:00:43 sw2wolf: that does not make the language impractical. :) 08:01:17 -!- ASau [~user@217.118.90.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:01:20 but we need to code for living 08:01:50 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:57 codygman no probs 08:03:30 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 08:04:03 I suppose you could learn COBOL for work. I hear tell that's pretty in-demand. 08:04:13 sw2wolf: Mass commercial appeal and adoption doesn't necessitate practicality in a language. 08:04:15 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:25 Look at perl 08:04:41 pretty much set for life with COBOL 08:05:01 they aren't going to replace that code anytime soon 08:05:12 Guthur: You guys are serious right? I heard a lot.. yep... that's what I was thinking too. 08:05:45 codygman: very much so, I worked in that area for a while 08:05:52 Guthur: About the shopping list, say I'm tagging those items. Should I use something like sqlite or is there another alternative in lisp? 08:06:03 *tagging those items to a search string 08:06:11 the software was considerably older than me, and I can pretty much guarantee it's still there 08:06:12 codygman: how large will your list be? 08:06:35 H4ns: However many different items I buy from the grocery store, so it won't be very large.. I'm guessing under 200 for sure. 08:07:11 I'm planning on tagging the items by aisle number 08:07:13 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:07:15 to save time 08:07:33 codygman: i'd not bother with sql, indexing or anything like that. just use in-memory data structures 08:08:07 codygman: it sounds as if you don't need any indexes. just put the data in clos objects, plists or structs and search sequentially *shrug* 08:08:15 if your data is going to become highly relation I might recommend a relation database 08:08:25 H4ns: I'm new to lisp and not aware of any. I also might use Kawa later to put this on my android phone and I think I'll need to persist data. 08:09:04 codygman: i'm not aware of any workable cl on android 08:09:10 mocl* 08:09:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:09:30 s/relation/relational 08:09:50 H4ns: https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android 08:10:01 codygman: but even on the phone, why not just write all the data to a file if you need to save it? it does not seem as if you can really save much by using a database system, but you will acquire the extra complexities 08:10:38 H4ns: You are right, all that is needed is a simple "Item name, Aisle Number" file. 08:11:11 codygman: by "workable cl on android" i meant a cl that can be used to write android applications, as opposed to a cl that can run on a machine that also runs android 08:11:12 H4ns: But I was planning on maybe making a big index of grocery store isle number/names/etc to try and guess where items are before I mark their aisle manually. 08:11:36 s/isle/aisle/g 08:11:42 codygman: right. how large is your shop. how many products and aisles? 08:11:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:11:49 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.93.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:11:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:12:10 H4ns: It's not large, and I haven't defined how I'll relate aisles (about 15) to items yet. 08:13:03 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:13:15 codygman: all i'm saying is that before looking at a database, you could write the system using just in-memory data structures. 08:13:31 codygman: chances are that you'll never need a database for the amount of data that you need to handle. 08:13:55 H4ns: You're right, I'm probably too comfortable just using databases. 08:14:01 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:23 codygman: well, if you are, maybe that would be a good reason to use one :) 08:15:04 codygman: but consider make-load-form-saving-slots methods 08:16:14 H4ns: can you elaborate on the make-load-form-saving-slots methods? 08:17:04 Guthur: make-load-form-saving-slots is just a convenient function that you can use to serialize clos objects. i'm trying to dig up a usage example. 08:17:35 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:44 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:59 -!- nawk [~nawk@unaffiliated/nawk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:15 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:26 nawk [~nawk@99.226.117.135] has joined #lisp 08:19:08 H4ns: I'll be grateful for one, I've been to the clhs and seen the docs, but haven't been able to find any usage examples. 08:19:37 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node217.html is really the only discussion that i've found so far 08:20:09 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 08:20:45 <`quote`> kinda a crappy question 08:20:48 <`quote`> is lisp extendable 08:21:06 `quote`: why don't your improve your question first? 08:21:34 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:44 <`quote`> apparently it is 08:27:07 -!- dbushenko [~dim@178.121.152.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:28:09 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:15 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@119.201.52.235] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 codygman/Guthur: maybe it is better to look at cl-store than at make-load-form and friends, for it is more practical 08:32:09 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:55 Say, how do I go about making tidy eql-specializers? 08:35:18 What? 08:35:44 Since the (eql x) form is evaluated during evaluation of the definition, I have to define the parameter (in this case, *player*) before the method. 08:36:24 So I have to place *player* inside creature.lisp, which holds the class and method definitions, 08:36:42 Or I have to take the specializer out of creature.lisp, which I'd rather not do. 08:36:53 well, yes, how would you specialize on eql-ness to an object that doesn't yet exist? 08:39:11 Currently, I made it work by placing the (defparameter *player* ...) inside creature.lisp, but it seems that it's a poor practice. Takes things out of the organization I prefer. 08:39:46 -!- `quote` [~quote@c-98-234-17-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leavin'] 08:40:05 LAMMJohnson [~john@host86-159-61-244.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:49 It's not bad now, but it's mostly a matter of keeping things from getting out of control later. 08:42:23 GuthurHome [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:24 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.173.58] has joined #lisp 08:44:48 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.173.58] has quit [Client Quit] 08:45:05 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.173.58] has joined #lisp 08:46:42 GuthurHo` [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:28 -!- GuthurHome [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:48:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:49:56 cl-store does indeed work very well 08:50:32 kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 08:51:07 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 08:51:18 I think some of the ORM solutions might use slot-method solution 08:53:08 ehu [~ehu@109.33.91.216] has joined #lisp 08:54:46 -!- GuthurHo` [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:57:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:57:24 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 08:57:42 fractal_heart [~mzhang@c-71-202-100-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:34 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.203.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:59:44 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.161.132] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:02:06 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@c210-49-83-215.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 09:03:47 -!- kanru` [~kanru@111-249-157-18.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:05:11 bitonic 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[Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:25:36 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:26:11 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@c-71-202-100-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:27:14 Bacteria [~Bacteria@c210-49-83-215.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:27:16 yogsototh [~yogsototh@lau06-7-83-153-113-178.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:26 -!- yogsototh [~yogsototh@lau06-7-83-153-113-178.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 10:34:03 GuthurHo` [~user@203.122.223.123] has joined #lisp 10:34:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:35:07 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:35:41 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:36:50 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:11 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:38:27 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 10:38:45 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:39:13 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-111-169-176-119.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:43:00 stlifey [~stlifey@125.89.69.219] has joined #lisp 10:44:45 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:44:50 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 10:45:19 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:26 i've got a bit of code which generates random values from probability distributions 10:46:46 and? 10:47:01 calling the c version of these functions is actually slower by a factor of 3 than using a pure CL version. Bearing in mind that the implementations might not be the same, could CFFI overhead account for some of this? 10:47:11 do I have to use loop (or a looping function) to fill a vector with cffi? 10:47:17 the distribution functions are called many times 10:47:20 cffi doesn't have any overhead 10:47:26 stassats: none at all? 10:47:35 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 10:47:49 your implementation FFI would have an overhead 10:48:03 kiuma: which vector? 10:48:11 stassats: i don't understand the distinction 10:48:21 minion: CFFI? 10:48:22 CFFI: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/CFFI 10:48:32 stassats, a vector of bytes, now I'm binding ecore pipe functions 10:48:51 faheem: cffi is a compatibility layer 10:49:12 kiuma: you can use memset 10:49:29 probably reasonably thin, so the overhead is the FFI in general 10:49:39 GuthurHo`: Ok, but when I say cffi i am talking about the cost of the conversion 10:49:53 GuthurHo`: apologies if that is wrong terminology 10:50:10 though that may not account for the difference in performance, like you said your implementation may not be totally comparable to C one 10:50:11 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:29 let me then rephrase in terms of the implementation FFI 10:50:31 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:02 faheem, nope apologies needed, but you will find a number of compatbility libaries for common functionality that was not defined in the CL spec 10:51:14 stassats, do you mean the C cuntion ? 10:51:22 FFI, Threading, Sockets, those sorts of things 10:51:24 GuthurHo`: true, though it is supposedly defined in terms of the C library, namely GSL. i was wondering if it could account for some of the difference 10:51:28 kiuma: yes 10:51:39 kiuma: if you're not afraid of the just discussed overhead 10:52:11 supposedly based on GSL i should have said 10:52:17 ah, but I wanted to do the opposite anyway 10:52:31 the opposite of what? 10:52:35 though i didn't write the code of course 10:53:06 faheem: the FFI has overhead. Thats all I can say for certain, hehe 10:53:18 actually, the pure CL code for this is actually a bit faster than the C version 10:53:25 GuthurHo`: ok 10:53:28 ECL ffi doesn't have overhead! 10:53:40 faheem: that means that the C version is bad 10:53:40 stassats: i'm using sbcl 10:53:59 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 10:54:07 reading a pointer and maping to a vector, I've seen that the cffi manual uses a loop for this calling mem-aref multiple times 10:54:12 stassats: hmm, actually i mispoke. the C version is the R random number routines 10:54:21 stassats: why is the C version bad? 10:54:29 well, you said it's slower 10:55:05 stassats: true. but the CL version might not be a good implementation. 10:55:46 short of writing a CL version of the C code myself, I guess I can't draw any more conclusions 10:55:59 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56:39 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:45 kiuma: mapping what to a vector? 10:57:17 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:57:56 stassats: i assume the values the pointer points to 10:58:48 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 11:00:51 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.208.64.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:02:38 stassats, something like (loop for i below size do (setf (aref buff i) (mem-aref array :unsigned-char i))) 11:02:58 so you want to copy a C array into a lisp array? 11:03:33 if so, why? 11:03:35 correct 11:04:02 because I want to read from an ecore pipe callback 11:04:31 read what? 11:04:36 http://docs.enlightenment.org/stable/ecore/group__Ecore__Pipe__Group.html#gad75a1e7a4ce7b2d6b2090849adadd922 11:04:38 bytes 11:05:05 void *buffer, unsigned int nbyte 11:05:30 why do you need to copy it into a lisp array? 11:05:57 because the user doesn't have to do anything with C. 11:06:24 lisp array or stream , or whatever 11:06:38 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 the user will only have to provide a (lambda (buffer) (...)) 11:11:21 38.01.92.32.07 11:11:21 11:11:39 ? 11:12:15 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:39 werwerwer [~1@158.181.222.111] has joined #lisp 11:13:28 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:15 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 11:19:15 -!- codygman [~codygman@pool-173-74-60-248.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:20:40 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:13 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:48 HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and good bye 11:24:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:25:08 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:26:59 Slime doesn't seem to display the initargs just suitable for the specialized class anymore 11:27:09 for initialize-instance 11:28:18 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 11:28:39 it displays (always did?) all acceptable keyword parameters 11:29:05 and keyword parameters are acceptable by all methods even if they are just declared in one method 11:29:26 If anybody has the contents of http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme), could you please send it back to me? I'm failing to retrieve it on my disks :-( 11:29:26 well I just defined a new class and it displays lots of crap 11:29:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:30:00 tcr: implementation internal methods for initialize-instance 11:30:42 That initargs bit is on and off for me. 11:30:59 tcr: besides, how can slime know initialize-instance can know which class the argument is? 11:31:23 it only can do for make-instance on a symbol 11:31:23 I thought it would parse the specializer 11:31:54 ah, you mean for (defmethod initialize-instance, not for (initialize-instance ...? 11:32:03 sorry, yes, indeed 11:33:27 Never mind, I just found it ^:-) Ouf! 11:37:12 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:26 tcr: it doesn't look like it ever did that 11:39:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:40:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-188-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:40:16 fair enough :-) 11:40:29 doesn't mean that it can't start doing that 11:42:12 -!- Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@178.74.91.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:43:03 not sure how, though 11:43:09 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 11:43:35 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:44:32 not without implementation cooperation, that's for sure 11:47:09 it would be really cool if it could fetch a correct arglist for (defmethod bar ((foo class)) (another-gf foo [])) 11:47:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:48:37 *stassats* should reserve such cool features for the slime-ng 11:48:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:51:03 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:17 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:51:31 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:00:11 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.200.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.91.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:47 ehu [~ehu@109.33.91.216] has joined #lisp 12:01:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:02:23 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:16 ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 12:04:16 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 12:04:31 is there something (in alexandria?) that allows me to do local method definitions, preferable only for the current thread? 12:06:01 -!- xispirito_off is now known as Aerolitus 12:06:01 AeroNotix [~xeno@abod227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:06:06 minion: contextl? 12:06:12 contextl: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 12:06:12 /,sh nickserv identify doutor atari 12:06:24 -!- Aerolitus [~xispirito@177.39.189.243] has quit [Changing host] 12:06:24 Aerolitus [~xispirito@unaffiliated/doutor] has joined #lisp 12:06:30 blah 12:08:05 stassats: I'll look at that. 12:08:08 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:23 i would just rethink my strategy instead 12:08:31 thanks, and a happy new year  12:09:09 well, I've got a tree of data, in classes ... now, for debugging, I'd like to get a pprint representation. 12:09:28 So I thought I'd use a local print-object method to get that. 12:09:35 why not just global? 12:09:55 for local printing things, use pprint-dispatch 12:09:56 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 because then each printout of such an object would give _all_ data 12:10:15 ie. stack dump, inspect window, etc. ... not that useful 12:11:32 (defun make-fancy-dispatch-table () (let ((table (copy-pprint-dispatch nil))) (set-pprint-dispatch 'flip214 (lambda (..) ...) 0 table) ... table)) 12:11:50 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:59 then (let ((*print-pprint-dispatch* (make-fancy-dispatch-table))) ...) 12:12:31 yes, something like that. just looked at the page. 12:14:48 Now I just have to find out whether I've got enought memory for *print-circle* T ;) 12:15:12 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abod227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 12:16:35 -!- kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:14 stassats: works, thanks a lot 12:18:45 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:17 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-152-149.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:21:34 flip214: even there weren't such a thing, you could do (defmethod print-object () (if *print-full* .. ..)) 12:21:34 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:22:13 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:54 stassats: yes, of course. I like to know about prior art, though ;) 12:27:02 that's already debugged and so on 12:27:32 well, that one just doesn't need to be debugged 12:28:41 this trivial case not, right. 12:28:54 just "iteratively improved" ;) 12:33:52 Can I get rid of the newline before (print-unreadable-object)? 12:34:40 there's no such thing 12:34:49 clhs *print-right-margin* 12:34:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_rig.htm 12:34:51 only that 12:36:16 I've already got that at 200, but (print-u-o) of a string always goes to the first column 12:36:19 hrmm 12:36:53 do you use PRINT? 12:37:58 no, princ 12:38:03 (format str "" (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address obj)) works for me 12:38:24 ah, resp. with (p-u-o) I don't have _any_ prin? there, just giving the stream 12:41:35 well, that shouldn't happen 12:42:11 paste the code? 12:44:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:46:41 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 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15:37:43 -!- maky [~maky@37.244.223.2] has quit [Quit: maky] 15:39:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:40:50 LAMMJohnson [~john@host86-159-61-244.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:51 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.91.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:19 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:49:01 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:15 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:24 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-201-150.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:19 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:55:51 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:00 Posterdati: By coincidence, my colleague in the office next door just received introductory books on Modelica that he ordered. He thinks it's really cool. 16:06:02 -!- jd__ [~jd@prometheus.naquadah.org] has quit [Quit: "I'll be back."] 16:06:02 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:06:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:06:48 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:15 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:53 -!- kpal [~kpal@217-12-75-152.sibtele.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:14:44 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:21 happy new year! 16:18:22 -!- LAMMJohnson [~john@host86-159-61-244.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19:02 Fare [~fare@c-68-81-138-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:12 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:22:19 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:23:37 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-201-150.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:10 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host243.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:25:16 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:25:46 k0001 [~k0001@host185.186-125-107.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:25:59 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-114-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:26:11 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-46-113-52-71.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:29:04 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 16:29:14 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-114-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:19 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 16:29:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:25 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cyszmdxbggcfbazt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:29:29 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 16:30:27 hi people and happy new year, does anyone know if ECL has a channel here at freenode, i visited #ecl but it is empty 16:31:00 wormphle1m [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:20 kilon: your best bet is the mailing list 16:31:22 and here 16:31:52 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:32:15 stassats: i see, fair enought, the latest news claiming much more readable C code got me excited -> http://sourceforge.net/p/ecls/news/2012/12/ecl-12121-released/ 16:32:15 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:32:34 and the fact i want a common lisp that can run on Android fast 16:32:55 For some values of "run on Android" 16:33:05 I hope your experiences with the NDK are better than mine 16:33:36 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-240-121.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:33:47 no experience so far jrajav but rest assured i expect a lot of big and small annoyances 16:34:16 clozure runs on android 16:34:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:34:33 i got my first android device just yesterday -> http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxynote/note_10.1/index.html?type=find 16:34:40 and clozure is usually faster than ecl on x86, so i expect that to be true for android arm too 16:34:50 mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has joined #lisp 16:34:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 really ? sound promising , I have used ccl, because I am a macos user 16:35:28 not only mac os users use ccl 16:35:36 and not all mac os users use ccl 16:35:51 i know, i have actually used and sbcl with success 16:36:13 i've successfully run ccl on galaxy s2, s3, and nexus 7 16:37:06 stassats: i wanted to aks this, since you have actually tried it, do those lisps keep their live nature, are they full implementation... for example is the debugger the same ? can i fire the repl and change live objects ? 16:37:13 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.97.35.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:21 interesting, I wonder if it would run on my Galaxy S 16:37:29 kilon: yep, it's the same old ccl 16:37:34 amazing 16:37:45 thats great news indeed, thanks will try it asap 16:38:22 although android isn't really a priority for Clozure 16:38:38 but i guess if more people will express interest 16:39:06 jd__ [~jd@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 16:40:54 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 i think its reasonable not to be, but tablets do become increasingly popular 16:42:42 and I am certainly very interested 16:43:12 one big win would be to get commonqt running on android 16:43:44 right now the only viable option for an interface is to run hunchentoot 16:43:47 is that a whole port of QT to common lisp ? 16:43:52 including QML ? 16:43:58 no, an interface to qt 16:44:29 I am actually thinking making my own GUI API , via opengl es 2 16:44:42 but yeah the more the merrier ;) 16:45:20 qt guys promise official android support next year 16:45:56 hmm i am surprised they have not done so already 16:46:09 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:26 well, because it's not easy 16:46:33 it's all java there 16:46:41 and not even usual java 16:46:48 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:46:59 so they something like a bridge through java, not a direct thing 16:47:32 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:32 heavy usage of NDK then 16:47:59 well, as far i can tell, you can't access GUI through NDK 16:48:00 thats one thing it troubles me with common lisp on android, how NDK and common lisp play together, implementation wise 16:48:24 I thought NDK allowed you to access any C/C++ library 16:48:42 well, yes, but now java library, and gui on android is java 16:49:05 if you want to look native 16:49:18 squeak/pharo have been ported together with moprhic and entire smalltalk enviroment including the new JIT VM through NDK and JNI to android 16:49:37 its not fast , but it works 16:49:46 well, qt works on android too 16:50:00 so you mean its not native 16:50:03 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 i mean it's not an official port 16:50:27 aha, i see now 16:50:59 using QT would make my life a lot easier for this project , instead of opengl es 2 and shaders 16:51:24 and potentially, commonqt can work too, just need to cross-compile a few things 16:51:28 i haven't got around to it yet 16:51:32 faust45_ [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 16:51:48 well will have to keep it on the list of things to try when it becomes available 16:51:50 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:00 how popular is commonqt among lispers ? 16:52:29 because i dont see GUI mentioned as topic among common lipser articles and blog posts 16:53:03 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:03 -!- faust45_ is now known as faust45 16:54:57 kilon: most common lispers do not write native guis nowadays 16:55:19 kilon: but among those who do with open source software, commonqt is propoably the most popular library 16:55:40 H4ns: thanks for the clarifications, more the reason for me to give it a try 16:56:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 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[~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:50:13 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:50:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:50:30 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 17:50:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:51:22 -!- Aerolitus [~xispirito@unaffiliated/doutor] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:00 hitecnologys: 40 minutes to go for the new year here 17:53:46 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:07 mstevens_ [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has joined #lisp 17:58:07 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.97.35.203.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:59:51 -!- jarmond [~user@62-175-223.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:00:04 fsbot: what is nicferrier 18:01:32 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:02:14 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:04:23 syamajala [~syamajala@108-71-13-222.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:13 -!- werwerwer [~1@158.181.222.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:06:18 sonnym [~sonny@cpe-24-59-181-37.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:23 -!- sonnym [~sonny@cpe-24-59-181-37.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:12:51 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-54-33.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:13:17 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:38 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:16:59 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:21:14 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vvrzmrngepjrmfaf] has joined #lisp 18:22:29 -!- pessoa [~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Started wasting time elsewhere] 18:22:45 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-182-161.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:25 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-54-33.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:32 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:26:37 Good afternoon all, and happy new year's eve. 18:27:40 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.127.196] has joined #lisp 18:29:35 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:22 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:13 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:32 EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:51 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboh79.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:35:31 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:37:40 happy nye 18:38:34 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:34 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:38:52 EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:30 jmorr [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.127.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:44 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-31-206.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 -!- jmorr [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:52 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:11 EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:21 Would a CLIM implementation that ONLY allowed identity, translation, and scaling transformations be usable? 18:49:13 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:01 EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:17 _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:38 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:32 -!- _8david [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:51:41 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:33 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 18:53:53 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-31-206.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:05 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:19 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:41 EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:47 nyef: you mean without rotation? 18:58:12 Most probably. But rotation is not that hard to implement, at least vectorially. 19:00:42 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:00 EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:33 Yeah, I'm thinking rectilinear transforms only, and nothing that switches the coordinate axis. 19:02:00 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 Is there a way to know what 'eval-when' semantics a form has? For example: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (print (eval-when??))) and have it produce :compile-toplevel when that form is evaluated as part of compiling? 19:02:36 -!- _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:22 I'm not sure, but the fact that eval-when preserves toplevelness might be useful. 19:03:49 or even be able to query -all- of the specifiers of the eval-when from an inner form.. so (eval-when???) in that case would evaluate to the list (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) etc. 19:04:00 nyef: ah well, flipping the coordinate system is something that's quite popular, at least in some circles. 19:04:54 zulu_inuoe: yes. Put it in a file, and try: (load "source.lisp") (compile-file "source.lisp") and (load "source.fasl") ;; adapt the file type depending on the implementation. 19:04:58 I don't have a problem with flipping it vertically or horizontally, as that's a scaling transform, but swapping the X and Y axis is a bit much to specify. 19:05:08 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:10 zulu_inuoe: :execute corresponds to the first, :compile-toplevel to the second,a nd :load-toplevel to the last. 19:05:46 nyef: again, it's not a problem vectorially, since you just apply a transformation matrix: it's a mere matrix.vector multiplication. 19:05:48 GuthurHo` [~user@203.122.223.123] has joined #lisp 19:06:27 pjb: You mean by having three separate eval-when ? 19:06:31 Right, in THEORY that's good, but I'm looking at a somewhat trickier practice. 19:06:55 nyef: What I mean is that you apply the transformation on the coordinates, but not necessarily on the pixel produced: a line drawn with the pixels south-east, would still have the pixels south-east after a rotation of the extremum points, so the bitmap wouldn't be the same as if it was it that had been rotated. 19:07:31 zulu_inuoe: the for in the eval-when is evaluated when the OR of the situation happens. 19:08:16 Specifically, I only have enough region logic for rectangles right now, and am only planning to support composite regions composed of rectangles, which rather limits what I can do with transformed regions, and that ties into the whole sheet geometry mess. 19:08:26 so (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ) means something like: (eval-when (OR :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ) ; the syntax doesn't take the OR, but that's what it means. 19:09:14 nyef: yes. One can always implement a subset of an API, as long as it's documented. And rotations are not often used in usual user interfaces. 19:09:35 nyef: so you're well inside the 80-20 rule. 19:09:40 Okay, I think that's what I needed to know, thanks. 19:09:56 pjb: The for? form*? Yea I understand how an eval-when works. I'm just looking for a way to obtain the context that my form is being evaluated in at evaluation-time. For when I do not know my lexical context (in a macro expansion for example) 19:11:07 zulu_inuoe: If you need to find this information out dynamically, you're doing something wrong. 19:11:07 -!- wormphle1m [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:28 zulu_inuoe: well, if the eval-form is not a toplevel form, things are complex. There are not a lot of people who have understand the rules in that case. Try it. 19:11:31 clhs eval-when 19:11:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 19:11:40 When eval-when is a toplevel form it's simple enough. 19:11:50 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:51 -!- Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@178.74.91.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:11:56 There's no lexical environment. The body is evaluated in a global environment that depends on the situation. 19:11:58 nyef: It's not a requirement for what I'm doing, but a nice to have in order to provide a compile-time warning. 19:12:21 :execute and :load-toplevel are run-time environments. :compile-toplevel is compilation environment. 19:12:57 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:04 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 19:13:16 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:24 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 19:13:25 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@94.137.37.223] has joined #lisp 19:13:35 So long story short, the answer is no. There is no way to get that information. Thanks! 19:13:39 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 19:13:58 Well, no straightforward way anyway >;] 19:14:24 21645 lines of lisp source, three uses of eval-when. Two in a file called "load-dependencies.lisp". 19:14:41 And I'm wondering if I can get rid of the third. 19:14:48 -!- GuthurHo` [~user@203.122.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:55 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15:55 -!- hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 19:16:20 Hrm. Not obviously easily, it seems. 19:17:01 zulu: you can have 3 eval-when forms 19:17:32 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:44 Fare: Yeaa I thought about that, but that's going to have too many gears spinning at a time, more surface area for a monkey's wrench to get stuck in one. 19:17:44 pjb: about eval-when, try my rant: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html 19:18:04 zulu: you can have a macro do it for you. 19:18:42 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:18:42 Fare: That's true. I might consider it in the future but for now I'll carry on. I just wanted to see if I missed a function to do just that in the CLHS 19:18:47 Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@46.233.207.73] has joined #lisp 19:20:42 (defmacro eval-when-foo ((x) &body body) (with-gensyms (f) `(macrolet ((,f (,x) ,@body))) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (,f :compile-toplevel)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (,f :load-toplevel)) (eval-when (:execute) (,f :execute))))) 19:20:46 (wholly untested) 19:21:21 or something 19:21:33 lichtblau [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:48 _8david [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:07 My work project has three uses of eval-when in twenty-one thousand lines of code... And I'm fairly sure that two of them are unnecessary, due to how the file they're in is used. 19:26:11 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:20 biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:27 What's a good ratio of eval-when forms to LOC? 19:26:50 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 19:27:13 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:27:29 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 19:27:36 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.175.231] has left #lisp 19:28:21 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:51 _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:54 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:29:38 it i have two vectors which are supposed to be of the same length, is it possible to to tell this to the compiler, and if so, will the compiler care? sbcl 19:29:47 if i have, sory 19:29:54 sorry, dammit 19:30:14 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:30:52 -!- _8david [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:32:24 faheem: (assert (= (length v1) (length v2))) 19:32:51 It may very well take it into account, yes. 19:33:10 pjb: thanks 19:33:34 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 19:33:48 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:36:48 -!- _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:36:49 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 19:37:28 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 19:38:06 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 nyef: very close to 0 19:39:54 nyef: more realistically, one every two files? 19:40:07 tfb [~tfb@82.152.102.167] has joined #lisp 19:40:38 The alternative is to split functions and macros over several files. It is often impractical, if there are circular dependencies, etc. 19:41:11 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:15 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:34 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 19:46:41 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 19:47:13 lichtblau [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:46 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-141-183.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:55:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:14 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:54 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-141-183.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:47 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@108-71-13-222.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:22 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:40 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:25 lichtblau [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:40 Is there a portable way to handle symbol conflicts caused by USE-PACKAGE? The hyperspec says "A name conflict in use-package between two external symbols inherited by package from packages-to-use may be resolved in favor of either symbol by importing one of them into package and making it a shadowing symbol. " but doesn't state how to do this programmatically. 20:11:39 ... Why are you using USE-PACKAGE in the first place instead of DEFPACKAGE and IN-PACKAGE? 20:11:53 clhs shadow 20:11:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm 20:12:05 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:59 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:01 rpg: Example of shadowing http://repo.or.cz/w/antik.git/blob/cffi-libffi:/init/package.lisp 20:13:43 i don't think the condition is defined or anything. sb-ext has name-conflict. 20:14:25 apeman_ [~apeman@133.241.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:15:00 in GRacket REPL, how do you get previous line? 20:15:54 try #scheme. or #racket, probably. 20:16:39 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 -!- tfb [~tfb@82.152.102.167] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 20:18:07 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:57 rpg: (shadowing-import 'p1:s) 20:19:23 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:20:15 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:31 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:21:36 wormphle1m [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:43 nyef, pjb: unfortunately, i am repairing code that (eech) is written in CL-USER and uses USE-PACKAGE (double ick). I cannot, alas, fix either of these. It's not my code. I was looking to see if there was a way to wrap some kind of handler around a USE-PACKAGE that I know is going to go wrong. 20:22:52 I wish that the ANSI spec dictated the CONDITION for a name conflict. 20:22:54 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 20:23:35 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:24:03 rpg: if you have sources you can patch it. 20:24:17 rpg: no portable way, except to rewrite your own defpackage and use-package on top of make-package 20:24:37 Otherwise, if they don't write cl:use-package, it's trivial to shadow 'use-package and define your own, and if they do, it's easy enough to write the reader macros to do the same! 20:24:50 pjb: No, I can't. It's my colleague's project and said colleague refuses to abandon the two practices named above.... 20:24:57 Not an ideal world. 20:25:13 rpg: File bugs about the symbol conflicts, then? 20:25:16 Shadowing is a great solution! Thanks! 20:25:20 rpg: it's trivial to patch sources. I routinely do that in Makefiles 20:25:27 violence is sometimes an appropriate last resort. 20:25:41 -!- biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:25:52 ... I though it was the last refuge of the incompetent? 20:26:11 not when people are writing real code in CL-USER 20:26:15 this is a special case 20:26:37 Our tester has a crowbar on his desk 20:26:38 nyef: no, incompetent is the one who reaches said last refuge quite fast 20:26:50 While the coding practice here is little short of abysmal, having the spec indicate a known error condition without dictating a corresponding condition object is also angry-making. 20:27:08 rpg: write a CDR. 20:27:15 pjb: as someone who recently ended up doing QA, I'd need ICBM launch console :/ 20:27:20 biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:44 what good would a CDR do? 20:28:01 USE-PACKAGE shadowing is a clever idea: I want a USE-PACKAGE *except*.... 20:28:04 p_l: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/8a0f/?srp=1 20:28:08 making a little bit of good after many years 20:28:32 Fare: specify what condition should be signaled. Then you could hit on the head of the implementers until they implement the CDR. 20:28:35 The use of CL-USER is making the baby Alonzo Church cry... 20:29:12 rpg: also, you can easily rename the cl-user package before and after loading that code. 20:29:23 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 20:29:30 (let ((old (rename-package "CL-USER" "TEMP"))) (make-package "CL-USER" :use "' 20:29:33 Alas, no. My colleague must continue to use it. :-( 20:29:59 (let ((old (rename-package "CL-USER" "TEMP"))) (in-package (make-package "CL-USER" :use '("CL"))) (load "source.lisp") (rename-package "CL-USER" "BAD") (rename-pacakge "TEMP" "CL-USER")) 20:30:06 That would be like repainting a car you borrow from someone else... :-( 20:30:09 s/in-package let *package* sorry. 20:30:44 rpg: if they lend you a car unwashed, you're entitled to tidy it up, repaint it and fill it up. 20:31:04 Not if you paint it a color they don't like! ;-) 20:32:50 slyrus [~chatzilla@97-122-255-171.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:55 pjb: I'd need a version of that launcher that can hit Lockheed GTL in USA, from Poland 20:33:06 Something like: http://paste.lisp.org/+2VO6 20:33:08 inb4 I get banned from USA 20:35:08 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-240-121.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35:13 I was also thinking that I hate the ASDF temporary package thingie 20:35:20 I'd rather have an ASDF-USER 20:36:27 pjb: you better make your CDR painfully unambiguous, or the CLISP guys will find a way to make their implementation incompatible with everyone else's. 20:36:32 orthecreedence [~kvirc@97-92-8-116.dhcp.stcd.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:40 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-37-211.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:51 hi everyone 20:36:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:37:31 quick question: is it possible to convert an instantiated clos object to another (super) type? 20:37:49 or would i have to just instantiate the new type and copy the fields over? 20:37:49 change-class ? 20:38:15 yesssss!!!! 20:38:16 change-class is not well-tested on all implementations 20:38:16 Fare: somebody should make a presentation about formal specifications at the next ELS, for implementers and users. 20:38:17 pefect 20:38:23 Fare: thank you! 20:38:45 does that mean it's a bad idea? 20:38:50 (that it's not tested) 20:38:58 you may have "interesting" bugs on e.g. ECL (and no backward compatibility to GCL, Genera, MCL, etc.) 20:39:03 k0001 [~k0001@host241.186-108-162.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:39:09 it's not necessarily a bad idea 20:39:15 I use change-class in ASDF. 20:39:27 is that a wrapper? 20:39:34 oh nevermind 20:39:45 and I've hit "interesting" bugs 20:39:51 on various implementations. 20:39:55 like what? 20:40:23 change-class to standard-class will fail on ECL with weird problems in internal slots. 20:41:18 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 20:41:22 you need to be careful your update-instance-for-different-class methods are defined BEFORE you do any change-class 20:41:44 ok 20:41:49 you'll find out 20:41:57 please file bugs against implementations that fail 20:42:14 if i change-class from 'a to 'b and 'b extends 'a, will i have to define an update-instance-for-different-class method? 20:42:24 you don't HAVE to. 20:42:44 But if you do, be sure to do it right. 20:43:14 one of my uses of change-class was to drop any previous slots except those I wanted to preserve. 20:43:35 so you probably would have had to program that conversion manually? 20:44:20 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host241.186-108-162.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:45:04 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-240-121.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:45:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 20:45:26 Fare: thanks for the pointers, if i find any bugs i'll report them, although im hoping my use case is simple enough that it will just work. 20:45:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@97-122-255-171.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:46:18 you can use cl-launch to quickly test on other implementations 20:46:43 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.156] has joined #lisp 20:48:08 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-166-23.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:24 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 20:51:08 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 k0001 [~k0001@host241.186-108-162.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:51:15 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:35 tfb [~tfb@82.152.102.167] has joined #lisp 20:55:11 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:55:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:12 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host241.186-108-162.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:07:58 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: KEEP SPARKS. FLAME AWAY.] 21:08:38 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:10:59 clhs boolean 21:10:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_ban.htm 21:13:57 -!- biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:16:05 -!- ASau [~user@217.118.90.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:20:36 -!- tfb [~tfb@82.152.102.167] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 21:20:48 urandom_ [~user@p548A33C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3046.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:58 Ghrim [~smuxi@84.45.228.143] has joined #lisp 21:22:30 how do I print a unicode character if I know its codepoint or hex code? 21:23:03 Use CODE-CHAR, perhaps? 21:24:28 (string (code-char character)) 21:25:02 just (code-char character) will give it's name like /smallitalikgreekiotta or some such 21:25:53 if you want to actually print the character you should do so. (write (code-char character) :escape nil) 21:25:53 (defun ucs-insert (&optional character (count 1)) 21:25:58 uups 21:26:09 thankyou!! 21:26:15 (let ((character (or character (read-char-by-name *standard-input*))) 21:26:16 (let ((character (or character (read-char-by-name *standard-input*))) 21:26:22 sorry 21:26:22 it works! been trying for over an hour ha 21:27:31 yep 21:27:51 some of them may not have a string representation tho.... 21:28:24 so you better use (or (string (code-char character) (code-char caracter)) 21:28:56 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:03 String will always turn a string, wbooze. 21:29:13 "If x is a character, then a string containing that one character is returned." 21:29:49 and if the character is not printable ? 21:30:01 like carriage return or so ? 21:30:03 Printability is unrelated to strings. 21:30:07 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 ah ok 21:30:12 Here, try: (string #\Return) 21:30:29 i was onto the printability then sorry 21:30:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:43 Also, of course carriage return is printable, it starts a new line. 21:31:22 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 21:33:32 and what about those for which you don't have a glyph in your fonts then ? will that print gibberish then ? 21:35:13 I don't think characters that can't print are allowed. For something I don't have a glyph for my system just uses the fallback font. 21:35:18 brguy [~idonteven@177.97.35.203.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:35:36 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:52 hmmm 21:36:46 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:39:14 What about stream encoding problems? Those can be a real pain at times. 21:40:33 -!- Ghrim [~smuxi@84.45.228.143] has left #lisp 21:42:30 nyef! 21:43:36 Hello Krystof. 21:44:06 good evening. 21:44:19 Happy new years eve. 21:44:48 everyone is impatient for the sbcl-on-arm future to be upon us. Think you can finish it up in 2 hours or so? Or must we wait for the new year? :-) 21:44:57 Next year, sorry. 21:45:07 -!- mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:37 I could make a public source repository with my last tree and put my notes file somewhere, if anyone wants to try to pick up where I left off, though. 21:46:27 It's at the point (still) where it needs working call-in/call-out for VOP PRINT and for ALIEN-FUNCALL. 21:48:16 in the meantime, there's CCL on ARM 21:48:23 The last update in my port log is from the 18th of November, so it's been a little while. 21:49:09 urandom__ [~user@p548A3E44.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:36 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:f8a0:2092:fed7:4a44:2512] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:49:44 but ccl's fast compiler might fool you into thinking that ARMs are fast enough these days 21:49:55 we need sbcl for the authentically slow experience 21:50:05 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:25 Krystof: or you can borrow an old enough device that still shows up on market :> 21:51:37 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:00 -!- ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:24 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A33C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:53:43 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:38 why is it that every time I dig into ASDF, I find yet another deep conceptual bug? 21:55:21 I thought that ASDF was comprised entirely of deep conceptual bugs flying in rough formation? 21:55:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3E44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:55:45 maybe 21:55:47 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboh79.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 21:56:03 all the bugs were already there in mk-defsystem and probably its predecessors 21:56:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:56:11 how come nobody else noticed or complained? 21:56:17 jarmond [~user@62-175-223.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A2DF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 They might have, but there were already five known users... 21:56:52 mashbro [~mashbro@unaffiliated/mashbro] has joined #lisp 21:56:56 in the current case, that conceptual bug was (1) hidden by a previous even bigger conceptual bug, and (2) papered over with a crock 21:57:04 -!- mashbro [~mashbro@unaffiliated/mashbro] has left #lisp 21:57:21 Is it ported over to xcvb? 21:57:51 Fare: Cool. 21:58:08 Ugh. My arm-port working tree is dirty. And I have no idea what I was thinking for some of the changes. 21:58:27 xcvb never had any of those bugs. For all its warts, at least, it had the basic design somewhat sane. 21:59:09 Can xcvb use the .asd files? 21:59:57 yes and no 22:00:16 in the simple cases, there's an automatic translator 22:00:30 in the less simple cases... you'll have to edit the output by hand. 22:00:39 -!- jarmond [~user@62-175-223.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:58 full backwards compatibility is not possible without making xcvb backwards 22:01:20 What about the systems in quicklisp? Are they mostly in the simple cases? 22:01:50 yes, most systems are the simple case 22:02:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2DF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:02:21 urandom__ [~user@p548A23C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:25 Then to adopt xcvb, it's only a question of integration with the implementations and with quicklisp. 22:02:26 but not all 22:02:53 What does Xach think of it? 22:04:05 dunno 22:04:22 I'd have to first change xcvb so it is more portable, and plays well with ABCL. 22:04:47 it's currently superslow on ABCL, because it starts a new process for each compilation, and ABCL has atrocious startup time 22:05:11 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:05:27 Fare: hmmm... sounds like a task for spawning second instance of ABCL with separate classloader, but without going outside of JVM 22:05:41 urandom_ [~user@p54B0E1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:31 except ABCL (1) can't do that right now, and (2) if it could, would still be slow to start up, since that new classloader would pretty much have to do most of the startup work again 22:06:54 I was thinking about having an XCVB "backend" that is just as bad as ASDF. 22:07:29 hi, probably I can't have 2 inspectors at the same time, can I? 22:09:03 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A23C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:19 urandom__ [~user@p548A1F26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:26 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:57 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-64.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:18 Fare: I think getting to a point where ABCL could do a "virtual fork" should be doable... 22:10:46 or actually extend ABCL to support the use of classloader trees for sandboxing code 22:12:07 -!- urandom_ [~user@p54B0E1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:23 if it's not copy-on-write, it may or may not be better than loading files in a new class-loader 22:16:37 also, I've added many features to ASDF in 2012 that I still need to add to XCVB: 22:16:40 encodings, 22:16:49 around-compile and compile-check hooks 22:16:55 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:16:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A1F26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:17:04 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:27 correct force and force-not 22:18:10 if-feature (can already be expressed in xcvb, just not as easily, and no support yet in converter) 22:19:12 urandom__ [~user@p54B0E9A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:49 Well, mark me down as someone interested, for possible future commercial work that might be much nicer with xcvb 22:21:12 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.37.223] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 22:21:20 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:21:46 I'd like to just be able to release ASDF 2.27 and get back to work on XCVB. 22:21:53 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 22:22:00 after having "solved" ASDF. 22:22:03 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:18 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.1.3, Yason 0.6.3, Hunchentoot 1.2.9, Drakma 1.3.0 22:22:25 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o Krystof 22:22:29 congratulations for SBCL 1.1.3! 22:22:35 tetzco1 [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has joined #lisp 22:23:18 urandom_ [~user@p54B0E95D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:28 what is a "safepoint build"? (in sbcl) 22:23:56 -!- tetzco [~tetzco@ppp-188-174-54-7.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:24:12 Fare: my current work inspires me a bit for possible future lisp hacking... that probably will stop at trying to unravel hu.dwim.* stuff :P 22:24:24 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:24:32 there's a lot of good stuff there 22:24:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0E9A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:24:53 Bike: a build which processes signals / interrupts at known safepoints (in assembly code) only, rather than protecting critical sections and allowing signals to be taken anywhere else 22:24:59 yes. But *grokking* it is... hard 22:25:03 perec by itself is fine 22:25:12 but it's the rest that is daunting to me 22:25:31 Krystof: ah. how can i see what platforms have safepoint builds and such? 22:26:05 Krystof, yup, user-virtualizable PCLSRing is the future. 22:26:18 Fare: no, that's not it. 22:26:41 pkhuong, ok, that's not the present. 22:27:18 Bike: It only really makes sense with threads, and I believe all 3 threaded archs (x86, x86-64, PPC) work, with some definite issues on PPC. 22:27:55 ok. thanks. 22:27:57 are there new machines with PPC processors, or is it a dead architecture? 22:28:17 (or embedded systems?) 22:28:50 Fare: there are new machines on the high end, and lots of embedded (of the higher end embedded variety, not the "mobile phone" kind) 22:28:53 Right, embedded/FPGA, but also consoles and IBM supers. 22:29:53 -!- orthecreedence [~kvirc@97-92-8-116.dhcp.stcd.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:29:55 where embedded = communication equipement, various vehicles (especially aircrafts, apparently), space 22:30:58 tfb [~tfb@82.152.102.167] has joined #lisp 22:31:27 and the IBM mid-end and high end stuff 22:34:06 OK, so for a future ASDF, I was thinking of the following, which is probably what janderson wanted to do 3 years ago: 22:34:20 1- break ASDF down into smaller bits 22:34:36 2- have a concatenate-source-op operation or some such to collate the bits back together 22:35:00 -!- urandom_ [~user@p54B0E95D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:16 3- keep distributing the collated asdf.lisp for bootstrap purposes 22:35:58 4- enjoy the fact that asdf-utils is actually part of asdf, etc. 22:36:49 problems, beside the SMOP: (1) how to deal with package issues during upgrades? 22:37:40 should I keep the flat package structure of ASDF, or have more magic in my package-upgrade code? 22:38:27 I'm all for magic minimisation. 22:38:48 urandom_ [~user@p548A1A3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:05 well, flat package structure means that ASDF-UTILS:MERGE-PATHNAMES* will actually be ASDF::MERGE-PATHNAMES* which is also "magic" of some sort. 22:40:42 in general, packages and upgrade don't rhyme well together 22:40:50 that's definitely a sore point in CL. 22:41:24 -!- dlind is now known as dlind_ 22:41:30 the fact that importing a symbol creates a hardlink rather than a symlink is particularly offensive to me. 22:41:33 francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has joined #lisp 22:44:38 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 22:45:53 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:24 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-64.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:46:24 -!- apeman_ [~apeman@133.241.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:46:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:46:24 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net 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