00:01:55 how can i list all defined symbols in current package/globally? 00:02:05 clhs l-s 00:02:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for l-s. 00:02:12 clhs d-s 00:02:12 do-symbols: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 00:02:14 clhs d--as 00:02:14 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for d--as. 00:02:17 clhs d-a-s 00:02:17 do-all-symbols: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 00:02:20 sorry 00:03:23 for just listing them, there's an interesting way: (apropos-list "" package) for a package, (apropos-list "") for all 00:04:46 thanks, exactly what i needed 00:04:54 what would you do with that? 00:05:35 looking at all the variables compiler defines on start the easy way 00:05:45 s/variables/symbols/ 00:05:59 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:28 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.160.221.191] has joined #lisp 00:11:03 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 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Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:18:21 -!- ravster [~ravi@66.207.222.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:19:35 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:20:19 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:25:20 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:25:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0E2FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:25:36 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:26:51 Yuuhi```` [benni@p54839F64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:20 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839250.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:28:35 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 01:29:13 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:29:26 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:30:18 fe[nl]ix: are there any plans to bring iolib to the win32 platform? 01:30:25 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:30:29 Guthur: many, afaik, but not enough people with time? 01:30:50 I do recall fe[nl]ix mentioning someone going into that... 01:31:04 *p_l* unfortunately found his job to be much more time-taking than expected 01:31:26 p_l: it would be nice to have it cross platform 01:31:47 minion: advice on portable? 01:31:47 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 01:32:23 stassats if you are the solo audience for your code, yes 01:32:36 i feel win32 should be ignored for CL 01:32:37 s/solo/sole 01:33:29 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:33:48 bitonic [~user@31.27.222.130] has joined #lisp 01:34:17 sw2wolf: neither lispworks nor franz seem to agree with that notion :) 01:34:29 if I didn't really care about portability I could even just pick on CL implementation and not even need usocket iolib or whatever 01:35:02 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:21 oh, it doesn't support LispWorks either 01:40:57 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 01:49:19 -!- tetzco [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:39 linse [~marioooh@31-18-80-66-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:23 not care and be rich for LW (:) 01:56:52 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:41 -!- bitonic [~user@31.27.222.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:03:16 I feel win32 should be ignored for everything sw2wolf 02:05:24 vyz: there is no perfect CL impl. in win32 02:05:59 and win32 will be history 02:06:09 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:10 there is no perf implementation of anything in a kernel like win32 02:06:22 use linux 02:06:24 or bsd 02:06:27 yes 02:06:35 what is that, a linux circle-jerk? 02:07:08 i am using FreeBSD 02:07:27 im using ubuntu with openbox 02:07:29 i dont like Linux 02:07:38 windows is so primitive, lol 02:07:52 #too 02:07:55 can you discuss windows on #not-lisp? 02:07:57 stassats: Just a hate win32 circle-jerk 02:09:35 is the author of fast-io usually around here 02:09:41 ...rpav 02:10:13 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 02:13:21 -!- jeti` [~user@p548EAD7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:13:36 sw2wolf: Perhaps you should watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=YX3iRjKj7C0 02:14:39 sw2wolf: of course, win32 will be history. When win64 will be current :-) 02:15:23 the industry is funny .. a so ungly system like windows .. bleh 02:15:28 #ngly 02:15:32 bleh 02:17:55 as much as I would like to ignore Windows, we have to support it because a clients want it, and the customer is always right, even when he is wrong. 02:18:10 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@220.166.237.66] has left #lisp 02:19:22 Robert Martin's point in that video is that for a language not to die, it must cater to the needs of the people. It looks like Microsoft did. If you want lisp to be used in enterprises, we should provide implementations, tools and libraries that cater to the needs of those enterprises. 02:20:38 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:21:46 Now of course, there's a little point that's bothering me in what he said: what if a problem, a need, just doesn't exist when you use a gievn language? With sexps, there's no need for xml or json. Shall we artificially write xml or json libraries, or shall we just ignore them and use sexps, telling potential customers just to use sexps? 02:22:12  the perl problem. 02:22:40 pjb: our product manager believes that means tying our software to some bigger JavaEE monster (jboss) 02:23:24 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:03 I think we can come to some comprise though. Some sort of bridge that isolates us from the kraken but still lets us tick an Enterprisey box 02:26:22 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:32 z0a [~zainamro@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:21 k0001 [~k0001@host14.190-224-51.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:36:39 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:37:45 -!- robs [~robs@37.244.138.179] has quit [Quit: robs] 02:38:06 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-213-12-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Quit: ] 02:38:25 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host102.190-137-201.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:51 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:45 -!- xispirito is now known as xispirito_off 02:45:55 -!- gridaphobe [~user@ip72-219-56-19.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:14 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 02:57:24 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:11 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:00:28 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:01:18 -!- linse [~marioooh@31-18-80-66-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:04 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:12:44 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:16:09 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 03:17:18 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:22:46 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:28:01 pjb: That was a great video. Thank you for sharing that 03:32:38 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-136-35-72.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:32:43 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-109-170.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:32:59 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:35:43 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:40:02 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:28 pjb: the need to to work with outside applications that already send or accept data in xml or json doesn't go away just because s-expressions are better 03:40:58 ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:29 -!- substitute [~substitut@c-50-132-44-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:44:11 ollie_ [~smuxi@84.45.228.143] has joined #lisp 03:45:13 if I have a list of arguments, how do I give those arguments to a function? I don't want to give it the list, but the arguments in the list 03:45:39 apply 03:48:27 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:12 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:30 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-31-137.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:56:34 i subscribed comp.lang.lisp hoping i'd find intelligent discussions like the ones i found yesterday, it was a disappointment. you got any names (lisp experts, stars) that could help me pinpoint? 03:56:54 you could read planet.lisp.org, or a book 03:58:27 nan_: the signal to noise ratio on c.l.l can be pretty low 03:58:29 Bike: i am reading a few books already, but i want to read from people that used different languages 03:59:20 Guthur: the new posts looks much worse, tons of one liners with no substance. 03:59:41 well, there's lots of people who also use Ruby or what have you in the lineup 04:00:43 waveman [~tim@CPE-121-216-23-234.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:00:56 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:01:36 -!- waveman [~tim@CPE-121-216-23-234.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:11 Yesterday i found a discussion (1997) involving Naggum, Alexander Stepanov and Bjerne and many others, it could answer many questions for me yet AS left the party earlier and i couldn't find anyone to refute his points. 04:02:28 -!- benny [~user@i577A8F1D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:03:37 Naggum would have difficulty replying to any refutes 04:06:28 Stepanov said there was no other language he could implement STL but C++, coming from c++ i'd like to know more from people that know both languages :) 04:07:59 nan_ link? 04:08:43 well, it's a bit difficult to say what the STL would be once you remove the language it's entwined with, but if you had specific questions (like I don't know, "are there generics") you could ask those 04:08:52 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/month/1997-05 04:09:52 Guthur: check the topic "C++ briar patch (Was: Object IDs are bad)" 04:10:58 Probably the significant difference is that C++ inherits its pass by value semantics from C. 04:12:43 So there is no implicit confusion between discrete values and references to mutable objects. 04:18:04 Zhivago: i am not sure how that would relate 04:19:13 Bike: i wouldn't ask "are there generics", since lisp is more generic than c++ can ever be, it has no types! (defun sum (x y) (+ x y)) 04:19:35 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host14.190-224-51.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:20:05 Lisp has types. 04:20:14 "generic" in the C++ sense, which is a specific definition (multiple definitions per type and so on). 04:20:48 Generics are a parameterization of class definition, more or less. 04:20:59 -!- ollie_ [~smuxi@84.45.228.143] has left #lisp 04:21:21 k0001 [~k0001@host181.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:21:22 the only thing I can think of is the creation of low level custom allocators for templated containers 04:21:29 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 04:21:46 It's not just structure, but also interface that can be usefully parameterized. 04:22:13 not to mention all of template metaprogramming. though i don't think the STL uses it that much? 04:22:16 e.g., This is a Foo handling Bar, that is a Zog handling Bar. 04:22:32 and it's a bit difficult to imagine a metaprogramming task like that that couldn't be done in Lisp of all things. 04:22:47 It's hard to imagine anything that can't be done in pretty much anything turing complete. 04:22:54 So that's not an interesting argument. 04:23:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 04:23:32 Bike: depending on the time of Stepanov assertation the meta programming stuff may not have been all that relevant 04:23:37 nan_ : don't ever go to cll ever 04:23:50 As an exercise you might try implementing the STL in CL. 04:23:51 Meta programming was not there by design afaict 04:24:08 it was just some neat exploitation 04:24:10 As an exercise, you could also translate typical STL idioms into CL idioms. 04:24:12 Corvidium: i ran away as soon as possible :) 04:24:24 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:35 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 04:24:44 A lot of stuff becomes trivial with generic functions and usable first-class functions. 04:26:00 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:26:16 Zhivago: i don't think you can do STL the way in C++, there is already an example in CL (length a) 04:26:32 firefux [firefux@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:d915] has joined #lisp 04:26:39 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:26:47 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:54 nan: How do you extend length for a new class? 04:26:55 nan_: what is that an example of? 04:27:17 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:27:49 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 04:27:56 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.27] has joined #lisp 04:28:36 pkhuong: in c++ you can do length(T a) and it is there for all types, there is no RTTI, whole STL based on this 04:28:40 ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:58 nan: Now, how would you do the same for CL? 04:29:03 Zhivago: inheritence but that would be no more template programming 04:29:17 Inheritance won't fix length for you. 04:30:29 Zhivago: i am not sure about the question you are asking 04:30:31 nan_: in standard CL you can't define your own methods on length, and you can't subclass (I don't think) the types it is defined on. 04:30:54 nan: I'm asking how you'd implement the STL length mechanism in CL. 04:30:58 Bike: there is no length function in standard C++. Pretend it's STL:LENGTH. 04:31:48 well, generics, then, like crhodes' sequences. but then of course you don't have compile-time dispatch 04:32:00 Zhivago: by checking types and directing to specific length function 04:32:09 nan_: if you're asking for overloading, we don't do that in CL. We have sane late dispatch instead. 04:32:14 nan: STL doesn't do that. 04:33:01 Zhivago: a length function in stl would do template specialiazation for each type you want (compile time) 04:33:11 You could try to do it like C++, with a clever name mangling scheme for early binding. I don't think it's a good idea. 04:33:13 nan: So, how would you do that in CL? 04:33:52 this seems like a bad comparison, static vs dynamic 04:34:02 The problem is that there isn't enough static type introspection in CL to do that dispatch. 04:34:19 So, essentially you can't do STL in CL for this reason. 04:34:24 Zhivago: isn't cl:length like that already? that it checks the type of argument and then if it is list calls list-length no? 04:34:58 nan: At run-time unless there is compile magic. 04:35:03 er, compiler magic. 04:35:08 nan_: no overloading in CL. If you want STL, but with real late binding instead of overloading, that's just a bunch of generic functions. 04:35:10 yep at runtime 04:35:22 nan: STL doesn't do it at runtime. 04:35:29 i mean cl 04:35:43 If CL had that level of static type introspection, you could do STL with macros. 04:35:56 what do you mean by "static type introspection"? 04:36:02 That's not to say that you should want to do it -- but it's useful to understand why you can't. 04:36:20 Zhivago: the C++ view of types is completely different from CL's. 04:36:32 Bike: that you know the type of argument at compile time 04:36:42 Actually, it's pretty much the same as CL's view of class. 04:37:04 is 1 an int or a char? Depends on the variable's declaration, not on the value. 04:37:11 Bike: Given variable x, you should be able to determine the class of x prior to binding. 04:37:22 ah. 04:37:23 1 is an int. 04:37:38 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37:47 pkhuong: 1 is an int and that is an abomination of a type design :) 04:37:52 Which is why you sometimes need 1L, and so on. 04:37:54 Zhivago: nope. CL gives a specific class to each value. STL is based on overloading, and will happily call a superclass's method with (in)appropriate declarations. 04:38:14 Zhivago: char x = 1. is x an int now? 04:38:27 pkhuong: So what? 04:38:30 That's why C++-style overloading doesn't make sense in CL. 04:38:33 Zhivago: 1 being int has very bad consequences in template programming, very ugly 04:38:44 There's an implicit conversion from int to char there. 04:39:16 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:18 This is not very relevant or interesting. 04:39:47 In both CL and C++ each variable has a range of values to which it can be bound. 04:40:23 C++ binds by transformative copy -- but that's not interesting. 04:41:43 Zhivago: but, for STL, a char isn't an int, and that's essential to overloading. If you want overloading, you need a type system that, much like our arrays, is concerned with representation rather than with values. 04:42:10 That's only significant with respect to the type introspection of x. 04:42:31 STL can ask x -- what are you? And x can answer 'char' or 'int' or 'giraffe'. 04:42:45 CL could do the same, had CL a similar introspection mechanism. 04:43:18 Zhivago: if x is a variable yes, not when it is a literal and that is his point i think 04:43:44 No, because, even assuming that all values were bound to variables, the vast majorities of variables would then not be declared to be of any particular type. 04:43:55 nan: For values there is no difference -- CL can introspect a value's type. 04:44:20 nan: Or class, for that matter. 04:44:31 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:48 Declarations are not necessary for inference or introspection. 04:45:02 How the introspection gets its answers is another issue. 04:45:17 Type inference doesn't make sense when the same value can be of types that lead to completely incompatible behaviour. 04:46:04 That's a problem for a dispatch mechanism. 04:46:08 int foo (int x) { return 1; } int foo (char x) { return 0; }. Inference better be extremely well defined in the spec. 04:46:20 Probably. 04:46:39 nan_: well, i hope this answers your question more helpfully than c.l.l did. 04:46:47 It also better be trivial, or else programming becomes an exercise in executing type inference. 04:47:03 In the end, it's an issue with the type systems' goals. 04:47:10 Sure, aren't we talking about STL and reams of incomprehensible error messages? 04:47:24 No. It's an issue of what stops you from doing it in CL. 04:47:44 Having understood that, you can then talk about if it would be worth-while doing it in the first place. 04:47:48 CL's describes values (except for array types, to a certain extent). C's and C++'s are about representation, hence slicing and all that. 04:47:52 ryanbw` [~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:01 Bike: c.l.l looks scary, i like the people here better! 04:48:09 CL describes implementation via class-of. 04:48:20 Zhivago: but declarations do not. 04:48:44 Declarations are of type, which constraints the set of satisfying classes. 04:50:48 the issue with overloading in CL goes far deeper than simply access to declaration information. 04:51:04 Access to that information would be sufficient to build the rest. 04:51:17 It might not be worth building, but that's another issue. 04:51:43 Haven't we just had a short discussion on type inference? 04:51:44 -!- ryanbw [~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:51:56 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.100.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:52:02 I think you had a confused rambling about C++. 04:52:11 What's the problem with type inference? 04:52:47 with overloading, different inference algorithms lead to different meanings for the same program. 04:52:57 And? 04:53:16 Oh, ok then. Carry on. 04:53:36 That's under the "is it worth doing?" section. 04:54:31 No, that's under the "CL's and C++'s type systems have different purposes" section. 04:54:48 At the end all i can see is that, everything inculding implementation same but in C++ you can pull the type inspection to the compile time. 04:55:09 nan_: then that's not the same implementation. 04:55:39 -!- firefux [firefux@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:d915] has left #lisp 04:56:21 pkhuong: in c++stl there are list-length vector-length and lenth specialized to these functions at compile time, in CL it does at runtime 04:57:29 well, doing it at compile time is a good part of the use of STL and generics generally, isn't it? 04:57:50 nan_: STL dispatches on the types you declare statically (or are trivially propagated). CL dispatches on the actual value. Hence my question: that value of 1, is it an int or a char? CL says "both, but char is more specific, and I'll dispatch there first". C++ instead asks how you declared that *variable*. 04:58:13 Bike: yes exactly and since you can inline all of these, there is no loss in efficiency 04:58:33 that's quite an assumption 04:58:34 of course there's a loss in efficiency, it's just harder to reason about. 04:58:41 But that's another topic. 04:58:49 Actually, C++ also dispatches on the type of the value, which might be (char)1 or (int)1 after whatever implicit conversions occur. 1 itself is an int. 05:00:11 nan: Inlining produces more code, which has a cost of its own. 05:00:26 nan: The economics of compilation strategy are tricky. 05:00:59 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.95.98] has joined #lisp 05:01:24 Bike: assumption? template programming is stoneage in c++ yet that efficiecny of running code is not assumption 05:01:57 its being stoneage made me move D than lisp 05:02:20 the assumption that all such functions can be inlined in all cases, that they will be inlined in all cases, that this inlining doesn't bloat code, etc etc 05:03:00 Zhivago: that part is i never understand, what kind of costs? 05:03:14 Bike: oh no i didn't mean that sorry 05:03:23 nan: One obvious cost is pressure on instruction cache. 05:03:44 This is why a tight byte-code interpreter can sometimes outperform native code. 05:04:15 Think of it as a matter of compression vs' read speed. 05:04:59 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:16 Zhivago: i got your point, with cost i thought you meant the usual arguments, i should have known better sorry :) 05:05:46 Everything costs :) It's just a matter of finding a path of acceptable economy. 05:05:52 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 05:07:41 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 05:10:21 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:12:59 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.95.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:13:44 -!- nawk [~nawk@unaffiliated/nawk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14:23 nawk [~nawk@CPE0018e7e66445-CM602ad08618e3.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:22 tetzco [~tetzco@ppp-88-217-72-98.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 05:17:24 australian ass mofuckas 05:17:40 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 05:17:49 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q vyz!*@* 05:17:56 -!- hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:22:35 mornin 05:26:44 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.234] has joined #lisp 05:29:25 sw2wolf [~czsq888@220.166.237.66] has joined #lisp 05:30:01 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:38:42 Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.254.198] has joined #lisp 05:39:06 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:40:26 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:40:46 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:04 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:49:08 k0001_ [~k0001@host235.190-138-119.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:49:09 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.254.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:19 Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.254.198] has joined #lisp 05:52:35 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host181.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:53:16 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:36 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 -!- deckeraa [~aaron@97-83-167-14.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54:09 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:54:24 is there any convenient way to read x bytes as a single integer from a stream? 05:54:26 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:57:52 hmm if your implementation supported the external format you want, it'd be convenient :) 05:58:05 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:58:06 otherwise you could read bytes and shift/or them 06:00:32 "integer" is ambiguous also as you'd have to decide the size of the integer and its signedness 06:00:40 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:55 and with the format you'd have to worry about endianness and such. 06:00:55 and if signed, the way it distinguishes signed and unsigned 06:01:04 yes, also true 06:03:06 apeman_ [~apeman@165.236.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:03:31 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:04 ryanbw`` [~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:11 yeah true, didn't need to be too generic, it was going to be unsigned 64bit int 06:07:09 remains the endian order 06:07:34 It's just the usual deserialization issue. Look for a deserializing library. 06:07:53 -!- ryanbw` [~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:09:50 about SICP the book, is there any loss in skim reading it? 06:09:59 like functional programming is a different way of thinking, but im not here to read poetry 06:10:29 apeman_: I don't see anything wrong with it, unless you find it redundant because it's mostly a basic cs course 06:10:39 -!- ryanbw`` [~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:11:04 ryanbw [~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:51 Guthur: I agree with Zhivago, serialization/deserialization are the terms you want to look for if you need a library; I could have wrongly assumed that you wanted to implement your own 06:14:02 anyone know of a book or resource that has less "computer science foundations" content? I just want the teaching functional part 06:14:23 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.254.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:47 i am aware of some programmers who think SICP is absolutely crucial 06:17:37 hmm I'm not sure apeman_, others might have a good book to recommend when they're around though... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming seems to have some interesting references 06:18:03 -!- z0a [~zainamro@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:18:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:19:22 zhivago, phadthai: yeah an option 06:19:51 I think I will just roll this particular thing by hand, just make sure I hadn't missed something obvious 06:20:09 other than (de)serialization 06:20:26 apeman_: including http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming but there's nothing really particularly lisp related, other than that lisp can optionally be used for fp 06:20:48 Although, it's useful to note that most lisps are procedural. 06:21:05 I'm interpreting I pretty simple wire protocol, and so the use case is rather limited anyway 06:22:47 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:23:10 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:23:12 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.95.98] has joined #lisp 06:24:33 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:01 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.22.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:25:15 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:11 What does the "#1=(programmable . #1#)" mean? 06:31:32 rking: a self-referencial list 06:31:49 Hrm. 06:31:57 a cons where the car is the symbol PROGRAMMABLE, and the cdr is the aforementioned cons 06:32:32 without print-circle it looks like (programmable programmable programmable ...etc 06:32:42 I'm not clear on the syntax. Can you give another example using #'s, or point me to somewhere that explains it? 06:32:55 It is a syntax for cyclic graphs. 06:33:08 clhs ## 06:33:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 06:33:42 Oh OK, excellent. So this is a CL thing? 06:34:03 this syntax specifically, sure 06:34:40 Thanks. (Glad I asked + found out about that clhs) 06:36:35 I really should get around to learning Lisp. =\ 06:39:17 shouldn't we all :P 06:42:41 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:54 -!- meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:54 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:44:37 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 06:47:36 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.235] has joined #lisp 06:56:14 kanru`` [~kanru@111-249-157-18.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:16 -!- Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@46.233.206.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:59:18 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:02:05 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 07:06:24 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:06:45 DrCode 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[~user@cpe-24-30-157-211.dc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:26:08 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:26:26 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:29:08 k0001 [~k0001@host10.190-229-212.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:30:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:31:28 ASau [~user@217.118.90.192] has joined #lisp 07:32:41 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host235.190-138-119.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:33:25 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 07:34:19 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:34:38 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 07:35:18 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:35:38 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:37:16 What do you guys think about the idea of DEFSTRUCT S of n members generating a new type (S t1  tn) and S == (S T  T) ? 07:37:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:38:21 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 07:39:59 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:40:25 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host10.190-229-212.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:53:51 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 07:55:03 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:04 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 07:56:52 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 07:57:13 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:57:22 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 07:58:00 DataLinkDroid 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has quit [Client Quit] 08:45:21 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #lisp 08:45:24 i tried setting (declare (optimize (debug 3))) in my function to maximise debug levels, but it didn't change things from the default 08:45:30 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:39 the answer here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4638710/maximum-debug-info-from-steel-bank-common-lisp-slime says to use 08:45:50 (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) 08:46:00 which did make a difference, but is non-portable 08:46:12 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:47:16 optimization is not generally portable anyway. every implementation requires its own declaration and optimization tweaks for optimum performance. 08:47:59 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 08:48:13 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 08:48:20 H4ns: ok. so one should say if sbcl do this, if ccl do this, etc? 08:49:03 i'm just saying that if you're optimizing for sbcl, you should not be shy to use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 08:49:28 H4ns: ok. thansk 08:49:30 thanks 08:50:06 and if you are writing a portable program, and want to make sure that it runs fast on all platforms you want to support, you need to optimize for each of the platforms and make sure that each optimization is actually helpful on all platforms 08:50:24 but the first thing that you should do, of course, is write a program that works. 08:50:27 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 08:50:47 H4ns: sure 08:53:06 H4ns: as the comments on that SO question says, the manual does not have these commands anyway (afaict) 08:55:45 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@220.166.237.66] has left #lisp 08:56:36 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:57:04 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 08:58:39 -!- 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wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:06:51 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:15:54 apparently if v is #(1 2 26 8 5 6 7) is conflicts with declaring it as (simple-array fixnum (*)) 11:16:07 can anyone tell me what the problem is? 11:16:08 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.97.35.253.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Don't use quit!] 11:16:43 is conflicts -> it conflicts 11:17:22 faheem: your implementation. (type-of #(1 2 26 8 5 6 7)) 11:17:30 or rather, (type-of v) 11:18:47 pjb: it reports this as (simple-vector 7) 11:19:12 and? 11:19:21 what is a simple-vector? 11:19:30 this is sbcl 11:19:38 clhs simple-vector 11:19:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ve.htm 11:20:17 pjb: yes, i see that. 11:20:32 still don't see what the problem is 11:20:41 i'm going by norvig's book' 11:21:00 (array-element-type #(1 2 26 8 5 6 7)) 11:21:02 #( will always create a simple-vector. What type is that? 11:21:12 he says to use simple-array instead of simple vector if one wants to declare a simple vector of fixnums 11:21:40 pjb: T 11:21:54 hmm. maybe that is the problme 11:21:55 No. Just read clhs simple-vector !!! 11:21:57 problem 11:22:21 clhs #( will always create a simple-vector. What type is that? 11:22:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #( will always create a simple-vector. What type is that?. 11:22:25 pjb: i'm looking at it 11:22:29 #( will always create a simple-vector. 11:22:40 pjb: yes. so? 11:22:40 clhs #( 11:22:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 11:22:54 so if v is #(1 2 3), then it is a simple-vector. 11:22:57 What is a simple-vector? 11:23:39 (and also, why do you want to declare it's type? Lisp knows the types of its values, there's no need to declare anything!) 11:24:59 Can't you read clhs simple-vector? It's written in English and in Lisp exactly what simple-vector is. 11:26:43 faheem: a vector has an element-type, which can be t for one holding generic items. If they are all fixnums that's just chance, it is still a (simple-array t (*)). If you want to make one with element-type fixnum, you do (make-array 7 :element-type 'fixnum etc 11:27:04 faheem: or you do (coerce #(1 2 26 8 5 6 7) '(vector fixnum)) 11:27:54 clhs simple-vector is 15 lines!!! 11:28:23 You can't choose one line at random and tell us what it says? You'd have 1/15 chance of giving the right answer to the question what is a simple-vector. 11:28:47 pjb: it's cryptic unless you already now a bit 11:28:56 (and half of those lines are section titles!, so that's 1/7). 11:29:37 prxq: ok. 11:29:54 prxq: so, if one does #(1 2 26 8 5 6 7), then CL still thinks it is type T? 11:29:55 faheem: what's the last line of clhs simple-vector? The one that says it's the same as something? 11:30:08 faheem: yes, that's what simple-vector means! 11:30:21 pjb: This is the same as (simple-array t (size)) 11:30:33 Yes. (simple-vector 7) is the same as (simple-array t (7)) 11:31:28 Which is not comparable to the type (simple-array fixnum (*)). 11:31:48 prxq: ok. so just an explicit declaration of #() won't work to create a vector of fixnums 11:31:56 pjb: ok 11:32:14 indeed, you can't use #( to read specific types of vectors. 11:32:22 faheem: yes, it does not have a provision for figuring out the tightest type, which would be (integer 1 26) 11:33:00 prxq: ok. thanks. 11:33:02 that would be pretty annoying, because you may want to put strings and symbols into it. 11:33:05 np 11:33:09 prxq: true 11:33:13 If you need to create the vector at read-time, you can use #.(make-vector 7 :element-type 'fixnum :initial-contents #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7)) 11:33:18 urandom__ [~user@p54B0EFBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:23 pjb: thanks 11:33:26 if you don't need to create it at read-time, then you can skip #. 11:33:39 But again, why do you care about simple-array fixnum? 11:33:43 There's no reason. 11:33:54 pjb: efficiency issues 11:34:15 You will probably lose. Efficiency issues are not intuitive. 11:34:39 When you give a more specific type, some implementations (like sbcl) have to make more specific tests to validate it! 11:34:44 pjb: maybe. this is just experimentation 11:34:49 ok. 11:35:51 faheem: also, most lisp don't use references for fixnum, so the bit pattern in memory for a (simple-array fixnum) and for a (simple-array t) will be the same. 11:36:28 pjb: that is bullshit. The more specific test isn't much, and the efficiency gain is real. 11:36:48 prxq: depends on the implementation. 11:36:58 he's using sbcl 11:37:15 and on use case, but one should profile 11:37:47 pjb: my understanding is that different storage is used for fixnum rather than t 11:38:24 nope. 11:39:00 usually, the values are tagged. Fixnums are small enough to be kept in place of a pointer, so instead of being allocated on the heap, they're stored in place of a pointer. 11:39:20 Same for character. 11:39:57 Some lisps do also that for floating point numbers (those that encode other types as NAN floats). 11:40:10 (But I know no CL that does that). 11:40:25 the point of type declarations is that an access to the array can be guaranteed to yield an element of the specified type. That is important for fast arithmetic. 11:41:08 Also, potential boxing costs can be reduced. 11:41:10 It's important if your array is big. :-) 11:41:40 Zhivago: well, my point here is that it's fixnum, so there's no boxing cost. 11:42:55 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:43:52 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:46:11 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:36 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 11:52:27 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:54:37 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.164] has joined #lisp 11:55:53 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:18 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:56:50 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:28 brguy [~idonteven@177.97.35.253.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 dbushenko [~dim@178.121.152.131] has joined #lisp 12:00:26 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:02:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:04:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-12.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:09:44 faheem: to make Zhivagos point explicit: a simple-array of array-type t holding double-floats has a different form in memory than a simple-array of array-type 'double-float holding the same numbers. This matters in practice. 12:13:38 at least, it is that way in sbcl and a few other implementations 12:14:16 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_upgr_1.htm holds the key. 12:17:43 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:17:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-12.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 12:21:06 GuthurHome [~user@203.122.223.123] has joined #lisp 12:26:36 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:26:51 prxq: right 12:27:07 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:18 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 12:27:31 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:27:47 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:28:24 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-160.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:28:54 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.129] has joined #lisp 12:29:17 i did some experimentation. it seems svref does not work for (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (7)) but requires (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (*)) 12:29:24 -!- werwerwer [~1@158.181.210.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:29:39 that's correct 12:29:46 using svref instead of aref made a speed difference. using fixnums did not 12:30:00 just declare the array 12:30:11 You could have just looked up simple-vector. 12:30:20 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_smp_ve.htm#simple-vector 12:30:48 if svref which is specialised to simple vector is faster, why can't it be specialised further to (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (7))? 12:30:57 it can 12:31:02 Zhivago: yes, i understand the point, i think 12:31:12 simple vector is (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (*)) 12:31:27 (aref (the (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (*)) vector) x) 12:31:33 stassats`: but it is not builtin? 12:31:43 stassats`: ah, interesting 12:31:53 stassats`: is (aref (the (SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (*)) vector) x) 12:32:10 (declare ((SIMPLE-ARRAY FIXNUM (*)) vector)) 12:32:11 stassats`: is (aref (the (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (*)) vector) x) equivalent to svref? 12:32:20 it is 12:32:26 harj [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:32:52 stassats`: thanks. that is helpful. can i get sbcl to tell me that is the case? 12:33:05 what do you mean? 12:34:01 stassats`: can i get sbcl to tell me svref is equivalent to (aref (the (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (*)) vector) x)? or expand the defn of svref if not? can one do macro expansion perhaps? 12:34:20 svref is not a macro 12:34:29 stassats`: ok 12:34:37 you can do M-. 12:35:32 (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (*)) == simple-vector 12:38:55 -!- harj [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:09 harj [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:39:14 -!- harj is now known as planetkrypton 12:39:23 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:39:50 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 hi, i'm new to lisp and wondering what's the best way to setup an environment on os x for common lisp? 12:41:34 planetkrypton: emacs, slime, clozure cl or sbcl 12:42:44 planetkrypton: http://emacsformacosx.com/ for emacs, then get clozure cl (http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html), then install quicklisp (http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/), use quicklisp to install :quicklisp-slime-helper 12:43:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:43:40 planetkrypton: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-osx/ 12:43:41 planetkrypton: sbcl for osx is here: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.1.0-x86-64-darwin-binary.tar.bz2 12:44:07 awesome thank you, i use vim so will look at sbcl 12:44:28 planetkrypton: sbcl does not care about your editor 12:45:08 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.97.35.253.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Don't use quit!] 12:45:14 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:45:41 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:58 H4ns: ah right 12:49:09 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-28-90.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:56:01 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:57:05 -!- nawk [~nawk@CPE0018e7e66445-CM602ad08618e3.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:57:05 nawk [~nawk@unaffiliated/nawk] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 i'm all setup, thanks guys 13:02:02 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:42 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:56 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:09:02 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:12:32 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:14:49 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 13:21:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.91.1] 13:22:28 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 13:23:50 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:24:33 ASau [~user@217.118.90.156] has joined #lisp 13:25:04 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:06 ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 13:27:11 werwerwer [~1@158.181.220.159] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:27:58 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:27:59 -!- Bacteria_ is now known as Bacteria 13:28:04 nikodem [~nikodem@user-164-127-28-90.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:30:00 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 13:32:01 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.129] has joined #lisp 13:35:44 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 13:37:29 pavelpenev_ [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 13:38:09 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:39:26 -!- benny [~user@i577A1027.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:41:07 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 13:43:50 benny [~user@i577A1027.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:34 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:44:36 LAMMJohnson [~john@host86-159-61-244.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:07 deckeraa [~aaron@97-83-167-14.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 -!- pavelpenev_ [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 13:48:49 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 13:48:58 fantasti` [~user@101.85.201.246] has joined #lisp 13:49:18 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 13:50:04 -!- GuthurHome [~user@203.122.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:36 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:53:41 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:48 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:58:18 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:50 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:10 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:06:48 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:06:53 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.26.233.170] has joined #lisp 14:12:01 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:23 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:18 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:15:21 Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has joined #lisp 14:15:38 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-164-127-28-90.play-internet.pl] has quit [] 14:18:29 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:19:49 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 14:20:31 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.26.233.170] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 14:22:00 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.95.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25:51 -!- LAMMJohnson [~john@host86-159-61-244.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:15 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:26:41 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:28:19 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 14:29:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:29:14 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:31 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:58 hi 14:31:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 how can I cast a float number to double float? Tx 14:31:24 See coerce. 14:31:52 tx 14:32:08 rq 14:32:30 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.22.209] has joined #lisp 14:39:05 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:40:03 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:55 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:00 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:46:35 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:47 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:28 LiamH: hi! 14:52:37 hi Posterdati 14:52:38 LiamH: are you there? 14:53:01 I think so 14:53:12 LiamH: may I ask your help on gsll? 14:53:28 yes 14:53:32 tx 14:53:40 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@180.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:53:52 what is tx? 14:54:15 an abbreviation for "thanks"? 14:54:26 I'm trying to perform scalar product among two vectors: (gsll:multiply (grid:make-foreign-array 'double-float :dimensions (list 2) :initial-contents (list -1.0d0 2.0d0)) (grid:make-foreign-array 'double-float :dimensions (list 2) :initial-contents (list 1.0 2.0))) 14:54:52 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 #lisp is not twitter, you can use the full power of the english language 14:55:09 I believe that it is retard-speak. 14:55:52 LiamH: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 14:57:19 When you ask to multiply two vectors, what do you wish to happen? 14:57:30 Zhivago: no, it's because I use to have a word completion aid on xchat, but I'm now kvirc 14:57:52 Less retard-enabled, I guess. :) 14:57:52 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 (a b) * (c d) = ac + bd 14:58:22 Specifically: gsl:multiply is defined to take two double floats, so the error is what I would expect. 14:58:59 In that case, you want grid:inner 14:58:59 LiamH: is multiply intended to perform vector multiplication? 14:59:21 What is "vector multiplication"? A dot product? Then, no. 14:59:30 a dot product 14:59:42 ok 14:59:42 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:48 I did it thanks... 15:00:01 Zhivago: THANKS 15:00:10 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 Please don't shout. 15:02:30 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:50 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:03:43 Posterdati: If you use emacs/slime, it's pretty easy to go to the definition (M-.) of a function; if you did this for gsl:multiply, you will see that, even without knowing my macros, it is defined to take two :doubles as arguments. That would tell you why you got the error, but of course not what the correct name of the function you desire is. 15:03:51 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:05:40 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 15:06:16 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:18 LiamH: I've got the gsl manual and then use (gsl-lookup "gsl_sf_elljac_e") 15:07:30 to find functions 15:08:17 Good idea. Ideally, if you then got the documentation, it would tell you this, but this docstring is a little weak, so I'm fixing that now. 15:08:22 sometimes M-. doesn't work for me... it just claims that the definition doesn't exist and I have to grep it. But when I M-. over a cl keyword it takes me to the sbcl source correctly. what might be causing that? 15:08:31 (I mean for gsl:multiply) 15:08:45 cornihilio: you need to give a concrete example 15:08:57 LiamH: I used gsll for my circuit solving program and it was quite good and fast 15:09:14 Posterdati: Good to know. 15:09:27 stassats`: I can't atm sadly (code on another machine). 15:09:40 but I'm guessing by your reaction that's highly unusual? 15:09:51 LiamH: http://code.google.com/p/circuit/ 15:10:06 arrk13 [~arrakis24@93-142-135-14.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:10:07 LiamH: I'm trying to finish it as I can 15:10:14 cornihilio: well, i don't know what you're doing, so i can't judge 15:10:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:10:48 nikolaidante_ [~nikolaida@27.56.108.185] has joined #lisp 15:11:32 Posterdati: Thanks... (Google code, how do you browse the source code?) 15:11:50 LiamH: what do you mean? 15:11:54 -!- nikolaidante_ is now known as NikolaiDante 15:12:00 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@27.56.108.185] has quit [Changing host] 15:12:00 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:12:18 Posterdati: look at the source code (on the web, without downloading) 15:12:21 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:12:27 LiamH: http://code.google.com/p/circuit/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk 15:12:35 cornihilio: can you at least describe it from memory in more detail? 15:12:45 LiamH: I think you can browse from that 15:13:01 yes, thanks, didn't find a button or menu item from the main page 15:14:52 grid:gref is obsolete 15:15:03 use grid:aref 15:15:23 I'm woking on a new version 15:15:48 with electromechanical devices models too 15:15:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:04 (will work fine however, no plans to remove the definition of gref) 15:17:35 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 15:18:46 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:19:13 LiamH: this program could work with differential models too, look at the discharge lamps model :) 15:19:51 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 15:21:04 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.95.98] has joined #lisp 15:23:34 stassats`: sorry... there is nothing very specific about it. It was a few functions that slime couldn't find when I did M-., and they were in files with other definitions that slime could find 15:23:51 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:43 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:56 it's cool, I'll just come here again if it shows up. 15:25:01 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 15:25:49 francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has joined #lisp 15:25:52 ok 15:26:54 is there a good way to reduce the number of notes printed by better optimisation: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134337 especially those related to type uncertainty in (LOG (- 1 TMP1)) ? 15:27:00 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 15:27:08 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:31:12 removing (speed 3) will reduce the number to 0 15:31:43 handling division by zero using handler-case and restart-case is extremely stupid 15:32:58 stassats`: can't you just redirect this conversation to the one you had on seemingly the exact same bit of code a few days ago? 15:33:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:34:04 yes but what specifically about type uncertainty in (LOG (- 1 TMP1)) ? 15:34:09 k0001 [~k0001@host228.190-137-207.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:34:49 all that handler-case instead of (if (zerop v2) 0 (coerce (/ v1 v2) 'single-float)) 15:34:51 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:08 francogrex: is TMP1 lower than 1? 15:36:28 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 15:36:44 yes always 15:36:51 then declare it as such 15:37:43 FWIW, (/ (1- most-positive-fixnum) most-positive-fixnum 1f0) may be of interest. 15:37:46 it is 0 < TMP1 <= 1 15:38:09 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 clhs single-float 15:38:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm 15:38:34 see how to declare that 15:40:52 and that DIV isn't even used, so you better remove it while nobody notices it 15:42:08 lol; yeah 15:42:49 and yes, what i said the previous time still applies 15:43:26 I changed from the previous time, it was much worse 15:44:47 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:56 phrixos [~clarkema@ma.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 15:47:13 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:35 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:48:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:52:21 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 16:01:07 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:39 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:52 this helps: http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/compiler-hint.html#toc202 16:02:00 -!- fantasti` [~user@101.85.201.246] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:03:22 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:03:40 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:14 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 16:06:34 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:08:46 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:18 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:13 jeti [~user@p548EAD7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:52 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:00 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:18:21 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:06 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:20:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:24:18 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:06 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:27:55 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.227] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:32:30 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ] 16:34:50 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:35:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:36:23 Krinn [~krinn@69.46.88.22] has joined #lisp 16:36:46 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:30 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 16:40:32 engblom [~user@dsl-83.148.217-102-dynip.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 -!- engblom [~user@dsl-83.148.217-102-dynip.ssp.fi] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:32 engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 16:40:59 flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-155-43.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:41:09 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 So I'm looking at the cl-annot project, which says it's "a special syntax for annotating and transforming forms" like Python's @decorators. But I'm not grokking what the difference is between that and defadvice. 16:42:55 What distinguishes cl-annot from just being a reinvention of defadvice? 16:43:12 umm... they are orthogonal? 16:43:34 defadvice, where available, lets you "advise" the function post-facto 16:43:45 cl-annot is basically a wrapper macro 16:45:28 *gears in head grinding* But that sounds like around advice, which can do pretty much whatever it wants to the advised/decorated construct. 16:46:07 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:26 Oh, wait, are you saying "cl-annot is for when you are writing a function and anticipating annotating it, advice is for when you have an existing function and want to adjust it"? 16:46:34 Krinn: except defadvice isn't part of the standard, and is usually used separately (that is, defadvice form is separate from the code it advises), while cl-annot is just a standard reader macro 16:46:42 mind you, I don't advocate the use of cl-annot 16:46:59 p_l: Ah, I was blurring "I can find it in the CLHS" with "it's part of the standard." Sorry. 16:47:24 (it says right there "an extension to CL" - whoops ^^;;) 16:48:02 defadvice was available where... ACL? LW? 16:48:26 p_l: So to simplify, I'm hearing that you'd use cl-annot for the code you're writing right now, advice for code that's already facts-on-the-ground. 16:48:41 p_l: I was finding it in LW and elisp. 16:49:02 mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has joined #lisp 16:49:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.91.1] 16:49:25 -!- jeti [~user@p548EAD7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:38 well, I don't have defadvice in any CL I use, and I don't like cl-annot (which is just a java-ish/pythonish syntax for a wrapper macro) 16:49:50 leo2007 [~leo@basil.offersbridge.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 afk 16:50:07 p_l: Thanks for clarifications. 16:50:45 I've used defadvice in elisp where it's very useful 16:51:38 dim: that was where I first saw it too - and coming from Python, I was all "oh hey that reminds me of decorators." 16:51:59 except that you don't need to "own" the function you're advising 16:52:12 what? defadvice is for ex post twiddling. 16:52:23 I don't see how they're similar to decorators. 16:52:28 exactly 16:52:51 dim: well, the thing is that when you have the sources of all the layers, you don't really need kludges like defadvice. Just patch the sources. 16:53:11 pkhuong: I dropped in because I was aware that there was something I wasn't grasping, yes. :p 16:53:28 patching the sources means more maintenance costs 16:53:52 if you want to ignore maintenance cost, you'd better ignore programming at all 16:54:10 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:54:23 On the contrary. advices will be easily broken with the next release. 16:54:46 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:55:17 "in theory" 16:55:48 I'm not sure I agree with that pjb 16:56:03 I know I've been using advices in elisp and prefer them to monkey-patching 16:56:17 because advices are way easier to maintain 16:56:56 elisp is a special case, perhaps. I'm not sure the same applies to CL programs. 16:56:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for is a special case, perhaps. I'm not sure the same applies to CL programs.. 16:57:51 -!- dbushenko [~dim@178.121.152.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:31 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:49 if i pass a function as argument, then the compiler doesn't know what the function is until runtime, right? and so can't do any optimization with it 17:01:17 are there any other options to passing a function to another function, besides passing as an argument? 17:01:54 k0001_ [~k0001@200.117.235.79] has joined #lisp 17:02:04 faheem: not necessarily. 17:03:22 With: (defun f (g x) (sqrt (1- (* (funcall g x) (funcall g x))))) (declaim (inline f)), (f (function sin) 33) can be compiled into #.(cos 33) 17:03:23 pjb: well, i can't inline it, anyway 17:03:34 not knowing the final address of the function is orthogonal to optimization anyway 17:04:17 faheem: why does it need any optimizations? 17:04:58 stassats`: dunno. it seems to make a difference if i inline it 17:05:07 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host228.190-137-207.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:05:41 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 that's just because the function which is not inlined is poorly optimized by you 17:07:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-242.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:09:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:09:21 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:06 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:10:17 brguy [~idonteven@177.17.147.86] has joined #lisp 17:10:35 faheem: for example: (defun f (g x) (if (eq (function sin) g) (cos x) (sqrt (1- (square (funcall g x)))))) ;-) 17:16:24 segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-99-110-98-49.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:45 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:50 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] 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[~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 18:31:07 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:45 suppose one is manipulating dna sequences. these have a four letter alphabet A, C, T G. It probably makes sense to use (unsigned-byte 2) 18:32:20 i was wondering if cl can support reading and writing characters, but internally represent them as numerical values. 18:32:57 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33:51 faheem: yes, it is possible to write a program that converts characters into (unsigned-byte 2). 18:34:35 (defun nucleotide->char (bits) (ecase bits (0 #\a) (1 #\c) (2 #\t) (3 #\g)))? 18:34:55 faheem: 2 and not 3? 18:35:10 Bike: aref was too much work? ;) 18:35:10 pkhuong: i was probably not clear. can this be automated so that the conversion happens automatically? 18:35:36 i've heard of reader macros, maybe that is a suitable application? 18:35:43 stassats`: well, maybe faheem doesn't need uracil 18:36:32 Bike: right. but i want something i don't want to invoke. automatic conversion both ways 18:36:51 invoke explicitly, i mean 18:36:53 faheem: reader macros are just for source, do you particularly need literal DNA sequences in your code? 18:38:03 and you'd just be doing #Datgcatcatc instead of (dna "atgcatcatc") 18:38:07 Bike: well, the idea is to manipulate these values as small bits inside the program 18:38:22 but when printing and so forth the would show up as characters 18:38:32 so i wouldn't have to mentally translate them 18:39:06 Bike: #D is the reader macro? 18:39:20 yes (obviously the choice of letter doesn't matter) 18:39:29 i'd think the way to do it would be to have a write-nucleotides function that takes the internal representation and writes out the chars for you, and just use that 18:39:31 Bike: ok 18:39:34 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:39:50 Write a function to parse strings into your efficient internal representation, and wrap your vectors of ub2 in a class or structure to dispatch to a print-object that converts to ATCG strings. 18:40:15 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:17 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:40:23 pkhuong: right, that makes sense. so print-object will be associated with whatever class it is 18:41:06 pkhuong: does it make sense to use reader macros for the input? 18:41:59 I don't see how it would be useful. 18:42:07 pkhuong: ok 18:42:37 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 18:43:14 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:31 _def 18:44:12 pkhuong: by the way, thanks for the patches. cl-randist is working fine now 18:44:41 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-8-204.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:08 k0001 [~k0001@host232.186-108-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 pkhuong: do you have an opinion wrt to the best random number CL library? 18:45:29 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 18:47:16 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@200.117.235.79] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:48:08 I like the mersenne twister family. dSFMT looks really nice for doubles, and I'd likely bind that if I cared. Good ol' MRG32k3a if I needed substreams and all that. 18:48:37 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:49:00 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:46 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-8-204.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:51:17 pkhuong: is that this one? https://github.com/Milkyway-at-home/milkywayathome_client/tree/master/dSFMT 18:51:18 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:18 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:51:18 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-110-97-41.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:36 i was meaning a pure CL implementation 18:52:20 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:52:59 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.27] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 18:53:39 -!- segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-108-73-160-85.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:54:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:53 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:29 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:58:48 -!- Longlius [~quassel@68.170.235.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:25 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:01 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:19 mustapha [~mustapha@ant06-1-82-242-111-119.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:30 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:40 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:45 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 19:07:18 -!- blubberdiblub [~foobar@blubberdiblub.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:08:03 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:28 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 19:10:49 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-190-102.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:13:39 blubberdiblub [~foobar@blubberdiblub.org] has joined #lisp 19:15:48 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:11 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:20:45 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:10 faheem: the one built into sbcl is quite ok. I'd just initialize it myself. 19:25:39 jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:26:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:33:44 -!- ASau [~user@217.118.90.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:09 ioexception [~user@CPE001839838ebe-CM001ac30d4784.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:28 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 19:37:00 prxq: ok. i guess i should have been more explcit that I'm also looking for distribution functions 19:39:12 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:40:37 faheem: there is sapaclisp, which has a lot of stuff. 19:40:56 there is a cl-statistics thing somewhere, which has also a lot of stuff. 19:41:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f7c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:57 prxq: thanks 19:43:09 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.95.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 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Connection reset by peer] 21:25:32 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:00 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:03 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 21:27:57 -!- vyz [~univyrse@68-190-59-32.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:54 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:56 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:24 nikodem [~nikodem@user-109-243-71-40.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:31:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:54 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:38:21 planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:39:44 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 21:43:27 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:43:45 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-50-140-197-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:49 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h95.63.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:07 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-50-140-197-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:11 Say, what causes unwind-protect to not execute the cleanup form? 21:46:32 in SBCL, interrupting threads 21:46:57 otherwise, you might have a condition in the cleanup form that prevents other code from running. 21:47:05 a non-local exit inside a cleanup form 21:47:14 -!- elliottcable is now known as nunoit 21:47:18 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:47:56 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-50-140-197-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:13 I'm using ncurses, and when I load the program with ASDF through the command line, the program gets to the unwind-protect yet never executes the cleanup form (endwin). 21:48:26 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:48:42 How are you determining that it is not run? 21:48:55 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 The backtrace isn't left-justified and the terminal locks up. 21:50:36 -!- biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:50:41 I'd try to trace endwin, add a format (possibly into a file) 21:50:44 I've simplified the file to the essentials of what makes it lock up: 21:50:44 http://pastebin.com/4si37PQe 21:51:02 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h95.63.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:19 It looks like (endwin) is part of the (progn ..) 21:52:08 i.e. not part of the unwind-protect 21:53:04 well, not part of the cleanup forms 21:53:08 My mistake: 21:53:08 http://pastebin.com/LUfPFWE2 21:53:26 It was and is the cleanup form. 21:53:35 I just forgot to correct the indentation. 21:54:13 Even more bizarre: When I uncomment the setf, the terminal doesn't lock up. 21:55:12 well, I don't find that byzarre. By default, the debugger is run and trying to talk to the terminal. 21:55:44 I'd add a format into a file before the (endwin), and I'd expect the output to show up in the file. 21:55:56 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 21:56:03 Sorry 21:56:17 The debugger is tried to be run before the cleanup form is run. That is the problem. 21:56:56 -!- nunoit is now known as elliottcable 21:57:36 (handler-case (unwind-protect ) (error (e) (error e))) would first jump out of the UWP (hence causing its cleanup forms to be run) before the error is resignaled and the debugger is invoked from there 21:58:21 About the format: 21:58:22 http://pastebin.com/YNx8StTp 21:58:39 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:56 backtrace.txt remains empty after the program is executed. 21:59:02 See above 21:59:13 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:35 That makes sense. 21:59:36 The debugger is invoked in the direct context of the (ERROR ), no transfer of control is performed, hence the cleanup form is not executed. 21:59:50 the handler-case will force a transfer of control out of the unwind-protect 22:00:06 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-109-243-71-40.play-internet.pl] has quit [] 22:00:13 Really? 22:00:35 What sold me on unwind-protect is that the cleanup would be executed no matter what. 22:01:00 I remember reading that it might not be executed immediately, but it would be. 22:01:20 substitute: it will be executed once the debugger returns. 22:01:22 The cleanup forms are executed in case the stack is unwound to a previous state. Hence the name UNWIND-PROTECT 22:01:26 substitute: ERROR isn't actually "exiting" the unwind-protect form. e.g., imagine that you use cerror and not error, and in the debugger you fix whatever problem so that execution in the protected forms can continue. 22:01:42 Ah. 22:01:44 the debugger is invoked before any stack is unwound. 22:01:57 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.134] has joined #lisp 22:01:58 And the debugger can't return since the terminal is locked. 22:02:00 Funny, that. 22:02:04 precisely 22:02:21 Well, seems like I'm in a bit of a pickle. 22:02:44 I think I can prevent that by setting *debugger-hook* to nil or something. 22:03:00 But then I'm without a debugger, which sounds like a nuisance. 22:03:08 I did show you a possible solution 22:03:57 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:04:03 Handler-case? 22:04:31 You will end up in the debugger, though with the stack unwound to just before the unwind-protect. That means, the error will be displayed just fine, but the backtrace point to the handler defined by handler-case 22:04:59 I'll give that a shot. 22:05:17 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:10 And it works. 22:06:23 Spectacular. Thank you very much. 22:07:32 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.22.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:27 LiamH: hi 22:09:39 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.120.192] has joined #lisp 22:09:44 LiamH: I couldn't find the vector cross product... 22:10:14 grid:cross 22:10:25 It's not a GSL function, so it's not in GSLL. 22:11:10 (since it only is defined in 3D, purists eschew it and it almost never shows up in math libraries) 22:11:40 ok 22:12:00 I saw that gsl has got annealing too 22:12:17 yeah, don't know how good it is 22:12:45 you will need libffi 22:12:52 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:13:12 and waht about norms? 22:13:42 what about them? 22:14:11 shall I use blas to have them? 22:14:22 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.120.192] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:34 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.120.192] has joined #lisp 22:15:59 Those aren't integrated yet, you have a choice of anitk:norm (or equivalently antik:euclidean) and gsl:euclidean-norm. 22:16:56 LiamH: what about include a norm function to evaluate uniform, one and p norm for vectors and matrices? 22:17:55 Not defined, but you're welcome to contribute :=) 22:18:43 geez I don't know how to make a grinny smiley 22:18:45 LiamH: I could provide a norm function for them, I use to have this in c: norm(object, type, ...) 22:19:05 (c:norm object t ype ) 22:19:07 -!- planetkrypton [~harj@188-223-128-168.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:17 pjb: hi! 22:19:21 Yes, that is how grid:norm is defined: norm (grid &optional (kind :euclidean) 22:19:34 but right now, only euclidean is defined 22:19:35 good then 22:19:41 ah ok 22:19:42 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 Happy to expand that 22:20:04 yes, euclidean and one norm are special cases of the general p norm 22:20:48 as is 0 norm 22:21:09 yes 22:21:57 tetzco1 [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has joined #lisp 22:22:03 LiamH: zero norm? 22:22:23 max abs 22:22:39 No wait, that's one norm 22:22:51 I think it's count of non-zero elements. 22:22:54 yup. 22:22:55 no 22:23:11 1 norm = sum(abs x) 22:23:25 *LiamH* has confused himself 22:23:25 -!- tetzco [~tetzco@ppp-88-217-72-98.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:23:41 infinity norm = max(abs x) 22:23:59 one of these non-smooth norms you people try to approximate with a mix of l_inf/l_1, instead of jsut embracing discreteness ;) 22:24:05 Ah, OK. Then I think 0 norm is count of non-zero elements. 22:24:16 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: immediate death] 22:24:22 pkhuong: "you people"? 22:24:27 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053006139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:24:56 pjb and I are cybernetic organisms :) 22:25:07 not just people :) lol 22:25:23 Fare [~fare@c-68-81-138-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:28 and is pkhuong not a people either? 22:25:33 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-50-140-197-19.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:30 Anyway, pkhuong is right, 0 norm can be approximated by 1 norm, but is badly approximated by a 2-norm, the way I understand it. 22:27:03 LiamH: I see math-oriented researchers work very hard to avoid the 0 norm because it's so hard to analyse. 22:27:30 I read a paper recently where the 1 norm was used to approximate the 0 norm 22:27:44 0 norm = L_\infinity ? 22:27:47 something to do with... hm. computer vision of some kind 22:27:54 can't remember 22:28:01 well that was worth it. (sorry) 22:28:14 *LiamH* digs through his basis pursuit notes 22:28:41 http://dx.doi.org/10.1137/S003614450037906X 22:28:53 I see that a lot in sparse recovery... Lasso and all that. 22:29:50 The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:11 hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:31:03 Anything recent by Donoho on compressed sensing e.g. http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/TIT.2006.871582 22:32:12 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:33:32 http://www-stat.stanford.edu/~candes/publications.html 22:33:55 One pixel cameras are an interesting concept. 22:35:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:35:23 incidentally, LiamH, http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/matlab.lisp is what I have found of my sbcl/matlab bridge 22:35:33 I think it was able to add things to each other 22:36:12 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:48 I'm fairly sure the form at the bottom didn't in fact work 22:37:06 Krystof: Thanks. So you are calling the (foreign) matlab library? 22:38:22 Well, this is all in Matlab as it was about 7 years ago 22:38:22 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f7c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:40 yes, I used the library, mostly for the "engine" support rather than the library directly 22:39:14 (the engine basically gave you eval on strings; it required csh to be installed, which always tripped me up on new installations of Linux) 22:39:15 Interesting. I had thought of trying to translate matlab into CL. 22:40:17 LiamH: why don't create a Common Lisp based openmodelica? 22:40:48 Posterdati: Well, first of all, because I have no idea what you're talking about. 22:41:20 and I guess, secondly, because it would be quite a lot of work. :-) 22:41:41 LiamH: https://www.openmodelica.org/ 22:41:50 LiamH: I thin openmodelica is better than matlab 22:41:51 prxq: Good call, though that might be third or fourth. 22:42:02 jeti` [~user@p548E992A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 Posterdati: Maybe so, but I want a matlab interface because most of my colleagues and all my students use it. 22:42:53 I suggest re-education instead! Or finding more tasteful colleagues 22:43:02 find an R crowd ;) 22:43:07 LiamH: oh yes... 22:43:11 *LiamH* has no choice of colleagues, nor of his students 22:43:23 can't you fail all the students, at least? 22:44:03 I did half pursuade a particularly insightful colleague to try CL, and he got pretty far, but then he fell in with a bad crowd (python). 22:44:13 I've had a minimal amount of success telling colleagues not to use matlab as their sole environment on research reproducibility grounds 22:45:03 Krystof: I am having a big struggle with that now, on a program that is intended to generate an enduring standard for spaceflight navigation. 22:45:13 Interesting approach. We reproduce by all depending on the same proprietary library (: 22:45:42 The contractor said they are struggling with changing versions and dropped support for features in Matlab. 22:45:50 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@81.2.103.19] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:46:18 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:06 The actually have a company practice they call "archaeological expeditions" searching for an old version of matlab that still runs and supports some critical piece of software they wrote. 22:50:40 Well, if such a thing occured to me, the first thing I'd do would be to ditch matlab, and use maxima on a free CL implementation 22:50:52 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:07 a colleague once mentioned that in debugging mode, bindings are dynamic, while in normal mode, bindings are lexical. Sounded like fun ... 22:51:22 In matlab? Crazy! 22:51:28 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:51:39 in matlab, but I cannot say for sure, as I don't use it. 22:51:40 Isn't that the old, old lisp way? Difference between interpreting and compiling code. 22:53:25 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:15 i guess it was annoying back then :D 22:55:32 oh yes 22:56:01 prxq: it actually took a while for Lispers to see the difference, and then for the knowledge to become common. 22:56:08 once uppon a time i came to a page with examples of how matlab notation was not so friendly after all, with all sorts of really hard to debug anomalies. 22:56:49 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 22:57:14 Posterdati: Openmodelica looks interesting. Does it have a library interface? 22:57:16 pkhuong: that may be. 22:57:51 LiamH: I think there's an sdk somewhere 22:57:53 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:35 iirc dynamic scoping was originally treated as a bug? (except when they realized they were using it everywhere) 22:58:49 Posterdati: If it does, I encourage you to write an interface using Antik. I can give you pointers on how to do it. 22:59:17 that would be great 22:59:18 Bike: didn't dynamic scoping come first, lexical scoping later? 22:59:29 LiamH: ok 22:59:34 LiamH: yes, but they didn't understand what the difference was 23:00:10 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:00:11 'twas ok for the 70s. It isn't ok in the 201xs. 23:00:20 *LiamH* tries to remember that "dynamic scoping" isn't really a good term 23:00:38 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:00:53 what would you rather say? 23:01:41 Dynamic extent; http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html 23:01:49 LiamH: not the same thing. 23:02:14 "it is convenient to define dynamic scope to mean indefinite scope and dynamic extent." 23:02:30 "The term ``dynamic scope'' is a misnomer. Nevertheless it is both traditional and useful. " 23:03:08 blocks have dynamic extent but are lexically scoped. 23:03:14 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-190-102.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:03:43 Bike: interesting 23:04:32 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:55 pkhuong: I'm not claiming they are. 23:05:35 e.g. say you have (defun foo () (block nil (bar (lambda () (return))))), (defun bar (fun) (funcall fun)). in foo the lambda "leaves" foo's lexical scope, but since block tags have dynamic extent bar works as expected. 23:06:01 btw, do you guys use a gnuplot binding library, and if so, which one? 23:06:30 GuthurHome [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:47 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:06:51 prxq: I generate tikz/pgfplots on a pretty much one-off basis. Not the most efficient way, but looks really good. 23:08:12 i see 23:09:15 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:27 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:48 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-168-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:11:17 I can't believe the number of times I see plots from a canned package (Matlab, etc.) put into a published paper or slides at a talk that are partially or completely illegible because of thin lines, tiny fonts, etc. No such problem in TikZ. 23:11:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-131.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:18 Worse, where the point the author/speaker intends to make is lost or vague because the canned routine doesn't show what he really wants to show. 23:12:20 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:12:22 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:13:08 indeed 23:13:58 It is sad that many smart people actually change their thinking to accommodate their tools, rather than the other way around. 23:14:52 So those that don't even have a want beyond what Matlab can plot, ugh... 23:15:59 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-188-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:17:00 anyone using maxima here ? 23:17:08 i have a question http://pastie.org/5599584 23:17:15 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:54 heh 23:20:17 oooh 23:20:59 sin(k*x-vt) versus sin(k*(x-vt)) heh 23:21:00 maybe you could try #maxima 23:21:14 CatMtKing [~chrono220@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:18 i'm already joined there..... 23:21:28 seems almost empty thereover 23:21:54 that's unfortunate, but I don't think we can help you 23:22:10 nor that we should, given the topic. 23:22:11 nvm, thank you anyway 23:22:22 jep jep it's ok prxq 23:23:02 it's quite unfortunate because, yes, it is written in CL. 23:24:37 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 23:25:06 i think it's some sort of math error i made rather...... 23:25:12 in interpreting stuff..... 23:25:14 indeed 23:25:18 so i go to #math.... 23:25:38 partly facilitated by the baroque infix notation 23:28:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:30:30 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 23:30:33 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 23:30:45 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f7c2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:09 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:31:41 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:12 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:47 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:33:04 Vicfred [~Futaba@189.232.24.149] has joined #lisp 23:33:54 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:34:12 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:35:10 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:14 Natch_u [~Natch@c-a9cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:37:22 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-190-102.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:39:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:23 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:36 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:48 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:40:07 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-a9cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:40:07 -!- Natch_u is now known as Natch 23:41:45 vjacob [~vjacob@ip2.c462.amb314.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:42:06 _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:43:04 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:24 -!- Fare [~fare@c-68-81-138-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:43:31 -!- _8david [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:44:03 -!- _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:20 _8david` [~user@port-212-202-134-139.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:45:31 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 23:46:05 brazilianguy [~idonteven@187.113.51.130] has joined #lisp 23:46:52 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@ip2.c462.amb314.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:32 -!- brguy [~idonteven@177.17.147.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:49:19 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:52:07 -!- Kvaks_ [~kvaks@161.164.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:52:09 brguy [~idonteven@189.27.87.32.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:52:56 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 23:53:27 -!- arrk13 [~arrakis24@93-142-135-14.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 23:54:29 -!- brazilianguy [~idonteven@187.113.51.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:35 Kvaks_ [~kvaks@161.164.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:55:49 brazilianguy [~idonteven@177.97.32.189] has joined #lisp 23:56:28 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:57:29 -!- CatMtKing [~chrono220@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:33 -!- brguy [~idonteven@189.27.87.32.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]